325. The Twin Sleepwalking Murder

On this episode, Payton and Garrett explore the case of Meghan Elliott. When a quiet morning is shattered by a frantic call for help, investigators uncover a case filled with unanswered questions, conflicting accounts, and a truth that may be far more complicated than it first appears. Links: Netflix Video Every Monday @11am PST, 12pm MST, 2pm EST 1pm CST https://www.netflix.com/murderwithmyhusband Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: LawAndCrime.com - https://lawandcrime.com/crime/jury-rejects-sleepwalking-defense-of-man-who-fatally-stabbed-his-twin-sister-in-the-neck-with-survival-knife/ DailyMail.co.uk - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14432625/benjamin-elliot-guilty-murder-twin-sister-texas-sleepwalking.html SandhillsExpress.com - https://sandhillsexpress.com/cbs_national/did-a-teen-stab-his-twin-sister-to-death-while-sleepwalking-cbsidc695d7fa/ TheDailyBeast.com - https://www.thedailybeast.com/texas-teen-benjamin-elliott-claims-he-may-have-killed-twin-sister-meghan-while-dreaming/ Kens5.com - https://www.kens5.com/article/news/crime/murder-trial-houston-man-twin-sister-death/285-66c1d559-4f1c-419e-bf88-10cb4a0e3f6a Medium.com - https://medium.com/@nikyoung/the-twin-who-killed-in-his-dreams-c33f7b09f7c3 ABC13.com - https://abc13.com/post/teen-girl-stabbed-meghan-elliott-benjamin-twin-killed/11064279/ MovieDelic.com - https://moviedelic.com/meghan-elliott/ CourtTV.com - https://www.courttv.com/news/tx-v-benjamin-elliott-sleepwalking-twin-murder-trial/ TheCinemaholic.com - https://thecinemaholic.com/meghan-elliott/ People.com - https://people.com/man-killed-sister-claimed-sleepwalking-sentenced-11686203 Cymbiotika.com - https://cymbiotika.com/blogs/sleep/how-long-does-it-take-to-go-into-deep-sleep-understanding-your-sleep-cycle#:~:text=occurs%20about%2030%20minutes%20after%20falling%20asleep CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/benjamin-elliott-texas-twin-sister-sleepwalking-murder-trial-48-hours/ KHOU.com - https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/harris-county/benjamin-elliott-murder-sentence/285-fdd756e5-65a6-417a-9e2a-7bfe57426f0d Fox26Houston.com - https://www.fox26houston.com/news/benjamin-elliott-sentenced-murder-twin-sister-harris-county AETV.com - https://www.aetv.com/articles/benjamin-elliott-killed-his-twin-sister-he-thought-it-was-a-dream AOL.com - https://www.aol.com/articles/benjamin-elliott-claimed-sleepwalking-stabbed-110000453.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:15Speaker 01

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• 0:18Speaker 02

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• 0:35Payton Moreland?

  You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is murder with my husband. I'm Payton Moreland.

• 0:42Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm Gavin Morland.

• 0:43Payton Moreland?

  And he's the husband.

• 0:44Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm the husband. Hey everybody, what's up? How's it going? How's live? Tell me something, actually, did you see that when I told everyone to tell me something cool?

• 0:53Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 0:54Garrett Moreland?

  Or tell me something.

• 0:55Payton Moreland?

  A comment.

• 0:55Garrett Moreland?

  It's some pretty amazing comments. One lady finished chemotherapy. She's cancer free. She rang the bell.

• 1:01Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:01Garrett Moreland?

  Pretty amazing. Congratulations. Keep telling us what's going on in your guys' life. I know we get a lot of DMs and a lot of messages, but comment, let us know what's going on. Let us know what a compliment accomplishments you have in your life.

• 1:17Garrett Moreland?

  Small, big, anything. Love it. What accomplishments do you got this week, babe?

• 1:23Payton Moreland?

  I worked a full shift.

• 1:24Garrett Moreland?

  Peyton did work at the bagel shop today. She did good. She did great. Daisy got a haircut. She's looking pretty. She was getting pretty long. She was not very happy about it, but that's okay. And then I'm just going to jump into my 10 seconds here. You know, one thing that

• 1:42Garrett Moreland?

  I think is impossible to fix. I don't even know if fix is the correct answer. Whether you're cooking food at home, you're cooking food in a restaurant, you go out to eat in a restaurant. Just.

• 1:56Garrett Moreland?

  I maybe it's just a me issue, but it happens at the bagel shop all the time. I just, I come home, I smell like everything bagels or whatever bagels we're making just here. Just I smell like bagels. Same thing happens even when I go out to eat though. I go out to a restaurant, I smell like food, whether I go out to Mexican food, an Asian place, American place, whatever it is, I smell like food. At home, same thing. Cook food at home, boom, entire house stinks. Like those hoods don't work, nothing works. You just smell like food. I don't like that because then you gotta go shower and then I maybe it's just an OCD thing, but I hate it. My hair smells like it. My clothes smell like it.

• 2:37Garrett Moreland?

  Like I hate, I hate going out to a restaurant and then going home and then I'm just like dang, but there's nothing you can do about it. No matter where you go, it just happens.

• 2:46Payton Moreland?

  No, the worst as a girl is when you do hair wash day because hair wash day takes so long to wash, so long to blow dry, so long to style. And then you go out to eat and you're like, yeah.

• 3:01Garrett Moreland?

  There really is nothing you can do. It just is what it is. Anyways, that's my 10 seconds. It's something I think about because I mean, it happens to me every day now and there's no escaping it. I don't know. I don't know why it bugs me, but here we are. Well, Bugs Peyton too. So it's not just me. Anyways, that's my 10 seconds. Other than that, we're chilling, recording podcast episodes, working, working at the bagel shop a lot, hanging out with Daisy and living life, making content. So yeah, that's what we got. And I think on that note, let's hop into this week's case.

• 3:38Payton Moreland?

  Our sources for this episode.

• 3:39Garrett Moreland?

  Sorry, I have to say, sorry, I interrupted Peyton. Our mics still bring out the craziest lisp when I talk. I, I don't know. I don't know what to tell you guys. I feel like it's not, is it this bad in person? Like, do I have a lisp like this? Like, have you heard, listened to the episodes recently?

• 3:58Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I think the mic makes it worse.

• 4:00Garrett Moreland?

  Right? I don't know where it is. Anyways, okay, let's hop into today's case.

• 4:06Payton Moreland?

  Our sources for this episode are longcrime.com, dailymail.co.uk, sandhillsexpress.com, thedailybeast.com, kens5.com, medium.com, abc13.com, moviedelic.com, courttv.com, thecinemaholic.com, people.com, symbiotica.com, cbsnews.com, khou.com, fox26houston.com, aetv.com, and aol.com.

• 4:35Garrett Moreland?

  AOL. I haven't used AOL in years.

• 4:39Payton Moreland?

  I think it's fair to say that the relationships we have with our siblings can become some of the most complicated in our life. That constant shift between love and affection, annoyance and competition. One day, they're your best friend, the only person who could possibly understand you. And the next, you can't stand to be in the same room with them. So take that and imagine being a twin. It's a connection that most of us could never understand. Sharing a womb, sharing a life every step of the way. Literally sharing the same DNA. There's even theories that suggest twins might be telepathically connected,

• 5:22Payton Moreland?

  that they can feel each other's emotions, sense when something is wrong without a single word being spoken. It's a bond that's never supposed to break. So when it does, it's not just shocking, it's unthinkable. Especially when those ties are severed from the inside. Which is why the question we'll be asking in today's case is, was this intentional? Or do stronger bonds lead to more devastating destruction? And disclaimer before we start this episode, it does include discussions on the death of a minor, so please, as always, listen with care.

• 6:04Payton Moreland?

  And today, I want to take you to a little suburb outside of Houston, Texas. And this suburb is called Katy. It is here in this town of about 25,000 people that Michael and Kathy Elliott have chosen to raise their family, their three kids, including their 17-year-old twins Benjamin and Meghan Elliott.

• 6:33Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 6:33Payton Moreland?

  So this suburb, Katie, is the kind of place you imagine when you think of an all-American slice of life. I'm talking freshly manicured lawns, kids riding their bikes, the streetlights coming on just before dark. And while most kids work hard to make and maintain friendships, even in a place as cute and picturesque as this, Ben and Megan haven't ever had to feel lonely because they're twins. They have each other. And according to everyone who knew them, they really were best friends. They were inseparable since the day they were conceived. Ben always looked out for Megan.

• 7:15Payton Moreland?

  She was his safe space, the one she'd run to when she felt overwhelmed, bullied, shy. And he loved being her protector, the one who she could always count on. They went to the same school together, they ran in the same group of friends, they had a lot of the same interests, but they had their own little quirks as well. Benjamin was a little bit more soft spoken. He was kind of an engineer with a brain for mechanics and problem solving. And Megan was more the creative type. She was intuitive, empathetic. She loved writing, drawing, kind of being an artist in every facet of the word. Her friends and family said she was the kind of person who saw beauty in the tiny things in life.

• 8:00Payton Moreland?

  And her art was how she turned those little details into something worth remembering. The sound of a bird in the morning, the way the sun reflected off the walls. She was a gentle soul who was just starting to come out of her shell in 2021 at 17 years old. She was beginning to make her own group of friends online. She'd actually just launched her own YouTube channel to showcase her art. She was finding her own place in the world, kind of an identity outside of being Benjamin's twin sister, which probably wasn't easy for Megan, especially after she was diagnosed with autism in her teens. Luckily, her home

• 8:44Payton Moreland?

  life was stable. Her parents were supportive, embraced their twins' individuality. Their mom, Kathy, was a senior manager for the Girl Scouts of America, while their father, Michael, was a stay-at-home dad. And they also had an older sister, Elizabeth, who Megan could look up to and confide in for the girlier things in life. Now, in 2021, the twins were looking forward to their futures. Whether that was together or separate was still uncertain. They had been touring separate colleges, and it looked like they might really go their own way soon. But for now, it seemed like they were soaking up the last year of high

• 9:26Payton Moreland?

  school together. They were getting along. Everything seemed great at home. But that all changed in September. Now, the night of September 28, 2021, was like any other night in the Elliot household. Ben had been home from school for the last two days sick, but apparently on this night, he's feeling better. So he and his father spent hours playing different video games while Megan was just off in her room doing her own thing. And one of the games Benjamin and his dad played that night was called Survive the Nights.

• 10:05Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 10:05Payton Moreland?

  And it's basically a post-apocalyptic survival game.

• 10:11Payton Moreland?

  And in it, Ben mentioned how one of the knives the characters used, it's kind of like a military style weapon, looked a lot like one of the knives that his dad owned. It was one he'd actually had his eye on for a while. So his dad at this point, Michael, puts the game on pause, goes and gets this military style knife and says, if you like it, like if you've been wanting it, just have it. Like if you love it so much, just have it. So that night, Ben goes to sleep in his own room with this knife his dad has given him on his nightstand.

• 10:52Garrett Moreland?

  I have no idea where this is going. I mean, I think I do now, but.

• 10:58Payton Moreland?

  But several hours later, in the morning of September 29th, Benjamin allegedly wakes up. Only he discovers he's not laying down in his bed. It's the middle of the night. Instead, he's standing in his twin sister Megan's room.

• 11:17Garrett Moreland?

  The freak out, get out of here right now.

• 11:20Payton Moreland?

  And according to him, he feels something sticky on his hands. He looks down and notices he is covered in blood.

• 11:29Garrett Moreland?

  There is no way he just killed his twin sister.

• 11:33Payton Moreland?

  And there's Megan, barely breathing from a stab wound in her neck. Ben's hand, when he wakes up, is still wrapped around the knife his father gave him the night before. Everything starts unfolding. Ben places a pillow on Megan to stop the bleeding and then races back to his bedroom for his phone. It is about 4:41 a.m. when he dials 911. His voice is trembling, like you can hear it, it's panicked. And he says, I just killed my sister. And as the operator keeps him talking, he claims, "I thought it was a dream. I thought it was a dream. I took my knife and I stabbed her. Please, I don't want her to die. I'm so sorry."

• 12:17Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, I cannot. This is insane.

• 12:22Payton Moreland?

  So the operator is like, "Go wake up your parents." And you can literally hear on this recorded call, this is something that I had watched multiple times before even like creating the script for this case. But you can hear on the recorded call when he starts screaming frantically for them. Like he just, he just starts yelling in the middle of the night. His father quickly comes rushing into the room. And obviously he comes in and sees the sight. His daughter is laying there pale, barely breathing. And when he's like, "What happened?" And again, you can hear this. Benjamin quickly says, "I killed Megan. I'm so sorry."

• 13:06Payton Moreland?

  It's words you never expect to hear.

• 13:09Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, I'm like sick to my stomach. I don't know. I don't, I don't know what I would do.

• 13:14Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 13:14Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know what I would do.

• 13:16Payton Moreland?

  You just never expect your child to say this about your other child, especially when it's twins. These two are allegedly best friends, super close. Now, after the dad comes rushing in, the mother Kathy comes rushing in. Ben is still on the line with 911, so we can hear all of this. And 911 is walking him through CPR. He is frantically doing chest compressions on his sister when the medics and the police show up just a few minutes later. And from this point, the audio from the 911 call is now switched to police body cam. So all of this next scene I've watched on police body cam.

• 13:58Payton Moreland?

  The family is like frantically removed from the scene. So police and EMTs can basically try and resuscitate Megan. And meanwhile, on this footage, Ben is like just yelling out into the void for someone to wake him up.

• 14:20Payton Moreland?

  Like it's almost like

• 14:21Garrett Moreland?

  He doesn't believe, he's in shock.

• 14:23Payton Moreland?

  Like he still thinks he's in a nightmare. But this isn't the end of a nightmare. It's literally just the beginning of one because while the paramedics and police know as they're working on Megan that she is already dead. Like this wound to her neck was devastating immediately. And they pronounce her dead at the scene.

• 14:43Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh.

• 14:45Payton Moreland?

  They refuse to tell the family for some reason. They don't tell them immediately like, yeah, she's gone. They just leave the family who's just kind of like, what do you mean he killed her? Like the parents are in complete shock in this footage.

• 14:59Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 14:59Payton Moreland?

  And they're, I mean, it's so devastating. At one point, the dad like looks at the brother Ben and is like, what did you do?

• 15:07Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 15:08Payton Moreland?

  Like how, why did you do this? And Ben's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Like it is just like devastating footage.

• 15:16Garrett Moreland?

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• 15:40Payton Moreland?

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• 16:12Garrett Moreland?

  And Peyton and I are big advocates for therapy. Give it a try. Life can be crazy. There's a lot going on. Like we were talking about, sometimes it feels like you need to have everything figured out. You don't. Go talk to someone. Go see what's going on. Visit betterhelp.com/husband to explore your payment options. That's better help, H E L P dot com slash husband.

• 16:34Payton Moreland?

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• 17:17Payton Moreland?

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• 17:58Payton Moreland?

  So they kind of just leave the family in this, like just bewilderment. While they're like, yeah, this, this girl is definitely dead. And they end up taking Ben out of the house in handcuffs and they place him in the back of a police cruiser. Now he sits there, he is still soaked in his sister's blood and basically. Basically, for the next three hours, he's repeating over and over again. I I just, I thought it was a dream. Like, he's not quiet. He's very vocal, he's talkative, and I just thought it was a dream. And his poor parents are just sitting there trying to figure out what's going on, what happened? Is Megan being transported to the hospital?

• 18:40Payton Moreland?

  Is their son really being arrested for murdering his twin sister? So there's just a lot of unanswered questions in this chaos. And because this is now an active homicide investigation and their house is now a crime scene, they won't let the Elliott's back inside to see their daughter. So like on the footage, they're like, please let us in the room, let us in the room. And they're like, you can't, they're working on her, but they aren't working on her anymore. She's dead. Kathy and Michael are begging, they're like, okay, can you just please take a picture of her? So we can see her, like, make sure she's okay. They refuse. Now, eventually, the parents get so frustrated and upset by the situation. And I mean, understandably so, they're in their own home.

• 19:21Garrett Moreland?

  Hundred percent.

• 19:22Payton Moreland?

  They know that their daughter's in there. They had seen the first initial, you know, crime scene of her being clearly unwell.

• 19:29Garrett Moreland?

  I'm not sure if I agree with not telling the parents of the child.

• 19:34Payton Moreland?

  And not letting, like, they're like, no, you can't go in there. You can't go in.

• 19:36Garrett Moreland?

  I don't think I agree with that.

• 19:38Payton Moreland?

  So they're frustrated and they call a close friend of theirs who is an attorney. And basically, at this point, they realize this is next steps. Like, their son just got put in a police cruiser in handcuffs.

• 19:50Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 19:51Payton Moreland?

  The police aren't letting them inside to see their daughter. And they're like, okay, we need an attorney. Because by the time the sun comes up, Benjamin is sitting across from Harris County Sheriff's detectives in their interrogation room. And again, this is all on video. They want to know exactly in Ben's own words, what happened that morning or late. They're like, hey, now that some time has passed, we need to know every single detail. The way he describes it is like this, quote. Have you ever had a really realistic nightmare where like just everything feels real, but also kind of off at the same time? He explains to police that he had been dreaming he had stabbed his sister and then when he woke

• 20:33Payton Moreland?

  up, the knife was in his hand, he was in her room and realized he had actually stabbed her. He tells them right away, like, I never made the conscious decision to do this. And during this interview, Benjamin is continuing to ask, like, is she alive? Is she alive? Cause he still doesn't know.

• 20:50Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Payton Moreland?

  And, and he's trying, like, he's focusing more on that than the actual interrogation.

• 20:56Garrett Moreland?

  This is so sad and just mind blowing.

• 21:01Payton Moreland?

  So instead of telling him the truth, they decide to not let him know if she's alive or dead yet. So one of the detectives says, last he checked, she was being examined, she was in the care of EMTs, but they already know that his sister is dead. But keeping this from him was apparently just like an interrogation tactic, a manipulation tactic, and one they knew would keep Benjamin talking because they figure once, based on how he was acting, once they said, yeah, she's dead, he was gonna just like.

• 21:33Garrett Moreland?

  Lose it?

• 21:34Payton Moreland?

  Lose it, yeah.

• 21:35Garrett Moreland?

  Well, I mean, yeah.

• 21:37Payton Moreland?

  And then what he says next only makes them more confused. He then tells detectives that, no, like, our relationship was good. I would never do anything to hurt Megan. She's my twin sister. I love her. There was no competition, no sibling rivalry. We hang out with all the same people. Like, there was absolutely no reason for me to do this intentionally. He tells the police, you can search my phone. Like, he offers up his phone, here, have my phone, gives them the password. And when asked, Ben does tell them, I've never been diagnosed with any sort of mental health condition. I'm happy. We have a very happy home, like, there's no problems at home. He was looking forward to college next year. He was gonna study to be a mechanical engineer.

• 22:22Payton Moreland?

  He even tells the police, I'm supposed to take the SAT next weekend. But things really trigger detectives when around 11 a.m. that morning, they do finally break the news to Benjamin. They tell him, okay, uh, Meghan did not survive her injuries. She's gone.

• 22:41Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 22:42Payton Moreland?

  And again, the reason they had been putting off telling him this was because they were like, he's gonna just be so distraught. He's not gonna be able to answer any more questions. When they say this to him, he goes, hmm? Not a cry or a scream. Uh, hmm, like, interesting. Like, it's a very odd response based on like how he had been reacting.

• 23:07Garrett Moreland?

  What?

• 23:09Payton Moreland?

  It's just an odd response, but again.

• 23:11Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I'm not judging in this situation currently.

• 23:14Payton Moreland?

  You judge someone who, if innocent, if completely innocent, if what he is saying is true, I don't know how you really judge his reaction to being told that. Cause he, it's almost like he just like goes frozen, like in shock is what it seems. The response to the question is so like off putting, like when he does it, it is a little eerie and uncomfortable. He's like, hmm, hmm.

• 23:38Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 23:38Payton Moreland?

  Uh, the, it becomes one of those critical moments in a case where like, this is what makes people question everything a little bit. Because his behavior is just not what you would expect from a brother who found out he just murdered his twin sister. Everything up till now, yes, on par with what you would think if he was really innocent. So this is when police are like, we gotta keep looking at this. For example, they find it interesting that in Benjamin's retelling of that morning, he says that he only stabbed his sister once, though he admitted the whole thing felt hazy. He's like, I, it's like I'm trying to remember a dream.

• 24:20Payton Moreland?

  Like I remember the stabbing, but it was in a dream to me. So he's like, this is what I remember, but Meghan's autopsy tells a different story. According to the medical examiner, Meghan had been stabbed not once, but twice, and one of the wounds had severed her carotid artery and jugular vein.

• 24:40Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, I mean, once, twice, I thought you were gonna say like 10 times. You know what I'm saying?

• 24:46Payton Moreland?

  Well, police are just like, he said once, there's obviously two stab wounds. Did he stab her once and then the second stab wound is what woke him up? So now he thinks it was only once.

• 24:58Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, I see what you're saying. Okay.

• 24:59Payton Moreland?

  But either way, very quickly, like, I'm talking this same day. Benjamin Elliott is charged for the murder of his twin sister. Now, whether police believe his story or not, I think this could just be considered protocol. Because even if you admit to manslaughter, you're still gonna be like charged with it. You know what I mean? So for the next several days, Benjamin is placed on suicide watch. While his family is working to pay his bail. And before I go on, imagine his parents and.

• 25:39Garrett Moreland?

  I don't want to, I just cannot imagine being in that situation. Like, I cannot imagine losing a child and then trying to figure out if your other child, like, what's going on?

• 25:50Payton Moreland?

  And like, you don't want them in prison.

• 25:51Garrett Moreland?

  But still loving your other child, like, that mental just maze, I, I can't.

• 25:59Payton Moreland?

  And when I tell you this, like, the body cam footage is footage that has stayed with me for a really long time. Because the pure confusion and devastation that these parents go through.

• 26:12Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 26:13Payton Moreland?

  On this body cam of like bewilderment and anger at their son because their daughter is

• 26:20Garrett Moreland?

  Dead.

• 26:20Payton Moreland?

  Dead, but also being like, it's gonna be okay, we're gonna get you an attorney because your son's looking at you going, I don't know, I don't know. I thought it was a dream. I don't know, like. I the just the dichotomy of the entire situation of being like the victim of or the parent of the victim and the parent of the murderer.

• 26:39Garrett Moreland?

  The whole thing is very perplexing. Like it

• 26:42Payton Moreland?

  And like hard to believe.

• 26:44Garrett Moreland?

  Like it just doesn't.

• 26:46Payton Moreland?

  I guess.

• 26:46Garrett Moreland?

  Makes it's not clocking. It just doesn't make sense. Like it's not a believable situation, but this is obv- obviously the situation we're in. So it's.

• 26:55Payton Moreland?

  And even though like this nine one one call and the body cam tugs on your heartstrings, it is not that surprising that police are like

• 27:06Payton Moreland?

  sleepwalking.

• 27:07Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, no.

• 27:08Payton Moreland?

  You know what I mean? Like it is a little confusing.

• 27:11Garrett Moreland?

  Blame because they also need to do their due diligence to make sure that.

• 27:14Payton Moreland?

  It's true.

• 27:15Garrett Moreland?

  It's true. I hundred percent agree.

• 27:17Payton Moreland?

  Why when they realize it was two stab wounds versus one, even they're like, well, did he do one? And then it didn't bleed fast. You know what I mean? He is finally released on bond the following Sunday. Kathy and Michael, his parents are waiting for him. They have lived every single day with these kids. And when Benjamin tells them again, all of this happened as the result of a sleepwalking episode, his parents firmly believe him. They've already lost one child. They're not going to lose another one too. So they decide, yep, we are fighting for Benjamin. We are fighting for the story

• 27:59Payton Moreland?

  that he is telling everyone about this murder. During the car ride home, they tell Benjamin they love him. They know he didn't mean to do this. They can see the remorse in his eyes. But that doesn't mean that they aren't scared of what might come next. The Elliott's know they can't be in their home after that day. So they then move into Kathy's mother's house and worried about Ben's own safety. They start sleeping in his room with him and like taking shifts, watching him in the night. And eventually they even install an alarm on his bedroom door that alerts them if the bedroom door opens in the night because they're like, we don't want another episode.

• 28:44Payton Moreland?

  Now, of course, the lingering question in all of this is, why would Benjamin do something like this? Or rather, from their perspective, how does something like this happen? Well, that's why Ben's parents, along with his lawyers, immediately start looking for answers. Answers Ben himself doesn't seem to have. Now, as they're trying to like, figure out how exactly is his story possible? His mother Kathy has a theory. She tells the lawyers that her own father was diagnosed with schizophrenia. And now she's worried that Ben was having a break and was possibly dealing with similar symptoms.

• 29:29Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 29:29Payton Moreland?

  But when they sit him down with a psychiatrist, they find nothing alarming about Ben's mental health. There's no signs of schizophrenia, no signs of bipolar disorder. But they do think it's possible Ben was actually sleepwalking and thought he was in a dream when he killed Meghan.

• 29:50Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, man, I don't know what that does legally.

• 29:53Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 29:54Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know how that plays out.

• 29:55Payton Moreland?

  There's actually a word for it. His lawyers believe he was experiencing something called parasomnia. It's something we've covered actually before. If you remember the case of Scott Filet.

• 30:07Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, yes.

• 30:08Payton Moreland?

  In Phoenix. He killed his wife. He claimed it was.

• 30:11Garrett Moreland?

  Correct.

• 30:12Payton Moreland?

  Sleepwalking. He doesn't, it doesn't like, they don't believe him. The jury didn't believe him. If you remember, he was convicted. Parasomnia, however, works as an umbrella term for a bunch of different sleep disorders.

• 30:25Garrett Moreland?

  I used to sleepwalk pretty bad.

• 30:28Payton Moreland?

  See, and I've never sleptwalked. And to me, the thought of sleepwalking feels just as impossible as this.

• 30:35Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I used to sleepwalk pretty bad. Like when I, I don't anymore. I stopped a long time ago. Probably by the time I was 18, it stopped. But like in my young teen years, oh, I would walk around the house. I would go and talk to people. And I had no idea like that my parents would, the next morning would be like, you came and talked to us last night for two hours. Like, what are you talking about?

• 30:55Payton Moreland?

  See, to me.

• 30:56Garrett Moreland?

  Like, I would legit walk around and just do things. And I would wake up and I was like, what?

• 31:02Payton Moreland?

  To me, it's like

• 31:03Garrett Moreland?

  Scared me.

• 31:04Payton Moreland?

  Then murdering someone in a dream, if you're fully able to be dreaming and having a conversation with someone is possible.

• 31:10Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, yeah, I think, I mean, just because I used to sleepwalk and like, I know. Like, I literally would just do things.

• 31:18Payton Moreland?

  But to me, that just seems so farfetched.

• 31:20Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, I totally, yeah.

• 31:21Payton Moreland?

  But like, again. If I woke up and you were like, sleepwalking and then I realized like, you were asleep and

• 31:29Garrett Moreland?

  Would that scare the crap out of you?

• 31:30Payton Moreland?

  Like, you're standing and talking and asleep would scare me so bad.

• 31:35Garrett Moreland?

  It's weird. I don't know how I did it. I don't know why I stopped, but I haven't done it in 12 years. I mean, longer than that, probably 15 years.

• 31:43Payton Moreland?

  Don't ever do it again.

• 31:45Garrett Moreland?

  I'll try not to.

• 31:46Payton Moreland?

  Cause now I am the victim of your sleepwalking. So again, just to quickly give some background, parasomnia is an umbrella. Basically, different sleep disorders, things that cause people to carry out certain behaviors in their sleep. Essentially, the body is awake while the brain is still sleeping. It's your typical sleepwalking. And sometimes people are dreaming and that can allow someone to act out their dreams. Doctors claim that certain people are more prone to experiencing parasomnia. So this is definitely a real thing, like those experiencing more stress, sleep deprivation. Some medications have even been attributed to sleepwalking.

• 32:30Payton Moreland?

  And of course, having a family history of it makes you prone to. But the more the family starts digging into it, they believe, the more they realize maybe the signs were there all along. It started off with little things mostly, because I mean, Benjamin's history is about to get fully blown open to try to determine if he could have this severe case of parasomnia. Benjamin always had a hard time falling asleep and waking up. He usually had to set a few different alarms for school in the morning to make sure he actually heard them. And when they look back at their family tree, Kathy also recalls an uncle who used to sleepwalk when he was a teenager.

• 33:13Payton Moreland?

  She said he would sometimes wake up outside in the garage, holding like tools that you would like work on that he kept in the garage. She said there was another time when her uncle had walked in on his sister showering again, supposedly he was sleepwalking though. A similar thing happened to Kathy's aunt. One time she walked out of the house and into the woods in the middle of the night. And when she woke up or came to, she realized she was outside holding on to her family's dog.

• 33:42Garrett Moreland?

  Here's the thing is, I think this is possible. Like I a hundred percent think it.

• 33:48Payton Moreland?

  But is it what happened?

• 33:49Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, that's what I'm trying to figure out. And I'm sure that's what everyone else is trying to figure out.

• 33:55Payton Moreland?

  As for Benjamin, they do report this was not his first case of sleepwalking. When questioned, his older sister Elizabeth says she actually once witnessed Benjamin herself. She said, one night when Ben was around 10, he walked into her bedroom doorway. When she said his name a few times and he like, didn't really respond, she realized he was just asleep. She said she touched his shoulder, saw that his eyes barely opened and she just led him gently back to bed. Now, one of Benjamin's friends remembered an incident too. He said Benjamin was at a sleepover at his friend's house. And when the friend woke up, they saw Benjamin was on the couch eating a donut, but he was asleep.

• 34:34Garrett Moreland?

  See, that's the type of stuff I did. I would sleepwalk and I would drink soda.

• 34:39Payton Moreland?

  That's weird.

• 34:40Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know what to tell you, babe. Yeah.

• 34:42Payton Moreland?

  See, to me, that just seems totally plausible then.

• 34:44Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, no, that's what I'm saying. It's a hundred percent plausible. I'm just trying to figure out if it's what happened. But it is, I would go, I would drink soda. I would like do things. It's freaky. I'm glad I stopped because it scares me even talking about it.

• 34:58Payton Moreland?

  That is so scary.

• 34:59Garrett Moreland?

  It's scary.

• 35:00Payton Moreland?

  Apparently his friends, okay, imagine this at a sleepover, right? Like he's just sitting there eating a donut. They think this is so funny. So they wake him up. And when they wake him up, Ben is like, what's going on?

• 35:12Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 35:12Payton Moreland?

  Like, why am I sitting here? And he is baffled about the fact that he's sitting on this couch eating a donut. And it's like. A whole ordeal and they ask him, they're like, you were asleep and he's like, I literally was dreaming I was eating a donut. That's what he tells his friends.

• 35:28Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 35:28Payton Moreland?

  I was dreaming I was eating a donut and then here I am like actually eating one.

• 35:33Garrett Moreland?

  My sleepwalking wasn't like that. I would just wake up the next day.

• 35:37Payton Moreland?

  And remember?

• 35:38Garrett Moreland?

  No, no, they would tell me what I did and I'm like, what do you, there's no way I did that. Like I would never remember anything.

• 35:45Payton Moreland?

  That's so crazy.

• 35:46Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Payton Moreland?

  The problem is, although I've told you guys this, none of this can actually be considered evidence.

• 35:53Garrett Moreland?

  Why?

• 35:54Payton Moreland?

  Because it's, you know, sure, it supports the claims that Benjamin could have been sleepwalking when he killed Megan. But it's all circumstantial. And what they really needed was to scientifically prove that this was a real condition that Benjamin had, number one, and could not control, number two.

• 36:13Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, okay. All right, guys, we're jumping into an ad and it is the one and only Skims.

• 36:20Payton Moreland?

  We love Skims and I'm so excited. I get to talk to you about their loungewear and pajamas. If you follow me on Instagram, I just posted, but I did get one of their sleep sets that's like a deep burgundy color. So cute, so rich, so soft. And then I also got a fleece set that's like this chocolate brown. So freaking cute. I love a good matching set and I love Skims. Again, the sleep set I got is the soft lounge sleep set. I always get asked like what exactly it is.

• 37:00Payton Moreland?

  Um, so yes, the soft lounge sleep set, it has the perfect weight, the perfect stretch. The fabric will not irritate your skin. Honestly, I recommend Skims to everyone due to just the quality and the comfort that it brings. So go check out their cotton fleece sets or their sleep sets right now.

• 37:21Garrett Moreland?

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• 37:34Payton Moreland?

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• 38:17Payton Moreland?

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• 39:02Payton Moreland?

  So the defense team hires some help. A neurologist who happens to be a leading expert in sleep disorders. This guy named Dr. Gerald Simmons. Now, Dr. Simmons conducts two different studies with Ben in his labs. Each one performed about six weeks apart. He hooks Ben up to a bunch of different equipment that will monitor pretty much everything that happens to his body while he's asleep. Oxygen levels, brainwaves, eye movement, heart rate, you name it. And one of the first things Dr. Simmons notices is that Ben definitely has something called obstructive sleep apnea, basically meaning one of his air passages is slightly

• 39:43Payton Moreland?

  blocked, which results in a lack of oxygen. And obviously, if you're not getting enough oxygen, can create big issues for healthy sleep pattern. And a lack of oxygen is tied to issues like sleepwalking. When people sleepwalk, they're usually in a specific stage of sleep called non-REM slow wave sleep. It's the deepest form, right? Now, after hooking Benjamin up, Dr. Simmons doesn't get to witness any sleepwalking episodes himself, but he notices something else. Benjamin falls into this deepest stage of sleep a lot faster than most people do. The average healthy person usually enters

• 40:27Payton Moreland?

  non-REM slow wave sleep about 30 to 40 minutes after they've fallen asleep. Ben typically entered it 11 minutes after falling asleep. And maybe because of this, because of how quickly he went into a deep sleep, Ben's brain activity was far more active than the average person's would be during this stage because his brain didn't have enough time to like fully, fully shut down. Basically, Dr. Simmons was finding evidence that Ben had not made up this sleepwalking alibi. He says there is definitely patterns in these

• 41:07Payton Moreland?

  sleep studies that are indicative of parasomnia. In fact, he's so sure of this that he formally signs off on it. He diagnoses Ben with this. And the Elliott's are hoping, okay, maybe this is enough to just drop the charges entirely.

• 41:23Garrett Moreland?

  Now, there's no way a prosecution, I don't think, would do that.

• 41:27Payton Moreland?

  Prosecution was already building their own case against Benjamin. They, this case had kind of gone viral a little bit. And as we know, when there is virality behind a case, prosecutions have a little bit of fire underneath them to really close a case. Just, just one plus one equals two. And according to the prosecution, they had seen a few signs that made them think this might have been an intentional murder after all.

• 41:54Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 41:55Payton Moreland?

  So this is what they say. There were a few red flags detectives noticed almost from the moment Benjamin placed that 911 call. They found it strange that initially on the 911 call, Ben was speaking in hushed tones. So when he calls, he's like, I've stabbed my sister. I've stabbed my sister. They don't understand why he hadn't even woken up his parents or was screaming or being loud, not even caring about waking up his parents. Until the operator was like, go wake your parents up.

• 42:28Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know if that sticks out to me as a red flag.

• 42:31Payton Moreland?

  I agree with you.

• 42:32Garrett Moreland?

  And just because you never know what you're going to do in an absolute insane situation.

• 42:38Payton Moreland?

  I also think like habits are habits. And if you're, if you're not clearly thinking like

• 42:43Garrett Moreland?

  At nighttime?

• 42:44Payton Moreland?

  In the household I grew up in, I would have whispered.

• 42:46Garrett Moreland?

  People talk softer. They don't want to wake anybody up.

• 42:48Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I wouldn't have wanted to wake anyone.

• 42:50Garrett Moreland?

  Have you ever been woken up from like a deep sleep? And then you're just like, holy, what is going on right now?

• 42:56Payton Moreland?

  It's like, it's like being medicated.

• 42:58Garrett Moreland?

  It's very confusing.

• 42:59Payton Moreland?

  Yes.

• 43:00Garrett Moreland?

  Not that I'm defending Kim. I'm just pointing out what I sees red flags and don't. So don't see that as a red flag.

• 43:07Payton Moreland?

  In fact, his own father's like, it wasn't even Ben's voice that woke us up. It was the operator's voice on speakerphone that woke us up. And so the prosecution's like, this is because Ben was preventing his parents from witnessing his sister's death for as long as possible. They're like, he wanted her to bleed out. So he didn't want to wake his parents. He didn't want to like face reality. Maybe.

• 43:32Garrett Moreland?

  Maybe. Okay.

• 43:33Payton Moreland?

  This is what the prosecution says. But it also doesn't help Ben's case that one of the lead prosecutors experiences sleepwalking herself. So she's going to come in and been like, well, I have sleptwalked and this is not what I.

• 43:46Garrett Moreland?

  Such a poor.

• 43:47Payton Moreland?

  I've never killed anyone.

• 43:48Garrett Moreland?

  Poor example.

• 43:49Payton Moreland?

  Especially because again, we just discovered parasomnia is a very. Detailed, there are very different versions.

• 43:56Garrett Moreland?

  It's just such a poor way to look at things in life. Like, that's just not, it's just not reality.

• 44:02Payton Moreland?

  It's also silly to think that your experience dictates another person's experience in anything, right?

• 44:08Garrett Moreland?

  It's not reality. It's such a, that's such a stupid take.

• 44:11Payton Moreland?

  It's human of us to try to relate.

• 44:14Garrett Moreland?

  But it's just not gonna-

• 44:15Payton Moreland?

  But it's just not reality.

• 44:16Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, it's no different than like, two people being sick, or two people experiencing the same pain, and one person being like, "That hurts so much." Well, I've experienced it. It didn't even hurt that much.

• 44:26Payton Moreland?

  It's like when people are like, "Oh, I got a tattoo on here and it was the worst pain ever." And then someone's like, "I got that tattoo and it didn't even hurt me."

• 44:33Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, big guy. Calm down. It's like, I hate that. I hate people to try to compare like that.

• 44:38Payton Moreland?

  Now, her name, this prosecutor's name is Megan Long. This is not her first sleepwalking case either.

• 44:44Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, interesting. Okay.

• 44:46Payton Moreland?

  She successfully prosecuted a case back in 2019 after a guy had claimed he'd shot his wife during a sleepwalking.

• 44:53Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, I get it. Look, I get that this is a very, like, it's a good way to try to get away with-

• 44:58Payton Moreland?

  A hundred percent.

• 44:59Garrett Moreland?

  Killing somebody. Hundred percent get that.

• 45:01Payton Moreland?

  Like, what if it's true too, though? What if there's more than one person who has killed someone in their sleep?

• 45:06Garrett Moreland?

  I know, I know.

• 45:07Payton Moreland?

  Cause if it's like, if it's possible with one, it's possible with another. So, she found it odd that no one else in Benjamin's immediate family had a history of sleepwalking, since from her experience, that's usually when it's a big factor. Aunts and uncles, she felt, were a little too far removed. But again, this prosecutor's not a doctor, which is why they hire their own expert, a psychologist named Dr. Mark Pressman to help them analyze the case. And from what he's seen, sleepwalkers really only become aggressive when someone physically tries to intervene. He basically explains aggression in sleepwalking is more a reflex than like, something you initiate.

• 45:49Payton Moreland?

  And there were no signs that Megan fought back, but there were signs that this attack might have been more thought out. If you remember, Ben had put a pillow on his sister to stop her bleeding.

• 46:00Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, I thought that was weird when you said that, cause I'm like, to stop her bleeding?

• 46:05Payton Moreland?

  But detectives are like- Was that pillow there because he put it on top of her before stabbing her so she couldn't scream?

• 46:13Garrett Moreland?

  Good point, yeah.

• 46:13Payton Moreland?

  When he stabbed her? And why do they think this? At the crime scene, there is no blood spatter on the walls or anywhere else in the room, which to them means the pillow was there when the stabbing happened and blocked blood from shooting outwards.

• 46:31Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, okay, that's a good point, yeah.

• 46:32Payton Moreland?

  And speaking of the knife, they also found it suspicious that the stabbing happened only hours after Ben was given the murder weapon. If you recall, Michael gave it to Ben after he saw a similar one in a video game earlier that night. Ben took it to his room with him, put it on his nightstand, and then a few hours later stabbed his sister to death with it.

• 46:51Garrett Moreland?

  The reason I don't see that as a red flag because I actually think like maybe that video game induced some sort of crazy nightmare and I mean, happens all the time. Think about it, like you work a lot all of a sudden or you're doing something a lot, you're watching movie. You almost always had dream or have a nightmare.

• 47:10Payton Moreland?

  A hundred percent.

• 47:11Garrett Moreland?

  Happens to me all the time.

• 47:12Payton Moreland?

  I'm on the same page with you on this one.

• 47:14Garrett Moreland?

  So that part, not a red flag.

• 47:16Payton Moreland?

  Prosecution is like, no, we think it's so crazy that he has a sleepwalking episode the same night he gets a knife.

• 47:24Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, this prosecution sucks. No offense.

• 47:28Payton Moreland?

  Though I'd say the most damning piece of evidence against Ben that they use against him is probably his phone usage.

• 47:37Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 47:38Payton Moreland?

  And this is something that's gonna make you question everything up to this point.

• 47:41Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, let's hear it. Yeah, yeah.

• 47:42Payton Moreland?

  Ben had been awake and actively using his phone 20 minutes before the stabbing occurred.

• 47:51Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, yeah, that changes a lot. That changes a lot.

• 47:54Payton Moreland?

  So he stopped using his phone at 4:17 a.m. And at 4:41 a.m. he was on the phone with 911.

• 48:01Garrett Moreland?

  So a question, and maybe you don't know this, what does actively using mean? Because Peyton will fall asleep watching her phone and that phone will sit there for like three more hours.

• 48:11Payton Moreland?

  I think it was probably going between apps is actively using.

• 48:16Garrett Moreland?

  But do we know that for sure?

• 48:18Payton Moreland?

  No, we don't know it, but I think if it was just to like, oh, a song was playing or a podcast was playing. That's what Garrett means, by the way. I fall asleep to podcasts.

• 48:26Garrett Moreland?

  Like if you're watching a YouTube video and you fell asleep and you're watching it for like another hour?

• 48:31Payton Moreland?

  I don't think that's considered actively using, but I guess it would be

• 48:34Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I mean, it's actively, you're actively watching.

• 48:37Payton Moreland?

  Was not brought up anywhere. I did not see that in anything.

• 48:40Garrett Moreland?

  I'd be curious to ask one of them what actively using means because if you're watching a TikTok on your phone, you're actively using your phone.

• 48:48Payton Moreland?

  I didn't even think about that, but I didn't see that anywhere.

• 48:50Garrett Moreland?

  Put me, put me in court.

• 48:52Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. Basically, there's a 20-minute lapse in time. Now, if you remember, Dr. Simmons tests, sleep study tests, said it only took Ben 11 minutes to fall into that deep, slow wave sleep where people sleepwalk. So perhaps it is possible that he put his phone down, fell asleep, and then literally sleptwalked into his sister's room with enough time to kill her and call 911. Ultimately, though, that was going to be up to a jury because the prosecution was not going to let Ben off the hook that easily. And the defense was not willing to accept the plea deal they were offering. They were like, you can plead guilty and get 30 years in prison. Instead, Ben was like, no, I'm innocent. He maintained that. He said it was forces beyond his control and he was going to wait for his day in court.

• 49:38Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 49:38Payton Moreland?

  Finally, that day arrived in February of 2025.

• 49:42Garrett Moreland?

  All right, let's hear it. I need to know what the jury thought.

• 49:46Payton Moreland?

  Now, this defense is so popular, it hasn't named. What's known as the sleepwalking defense, or under its legal classification, automatism, has only been successful a handful of times throughout history, but it is commonly used as a defense. And the prosecution does have a few decent pieces of evidence in this case. What they don't have, however, is a motive. There's nothing indicating that Ben had any issues with Meghan. In fact, by all accounts, they were best friends. They adored each other. There is no digital evidence, no eyewitness accounts, nothing from friends or family, nothing to support the fact that Ben might have wanted to kill his sister intentionally.

• 50:29Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 50:29Payton Moreland?

  So that's what the defense is really hanging its hat on. That, and then the fact that Ben underwent sleep studies to show the prosecution's biggest piece of evidence doesn't exactly hold up. And that's the phone usage piece. They're going to say no because of the sleep test he did, we know is It is totally possible that he fell asleep and went into sleepwalking within those 20 minutes. So even if he was using his phone, it is fully possible that this, that his version of events still happened. And you also have to remember, sleepwalking like typically is triggered by stress.

• 51:09Payton Moreland?

  Ben did mention he has his SATs coming up. It's his senior year of high school. Life's about to change. He's looking at colleges. He's going to move away from his sister. That's not nothing for a teenage boy. And the defense also pointed to cases of sleepwalking where people did things that felt natural to them. One study showed there was a chef who would sleepwalk and literally cook in his sleep. Well, for Benjamin, handling knives was something that came naturally to him. His family had a large collection of knives. Duh, his dad gave him one the night before. They went camping often. They also found that Ben scored much higher than most on a sleepiness scale.

• 51:50Payton Moreland?

  He often had a hard time waking up. He would have conversations with people he didn't remember when he wasn't fully awake. So all of this, according to Dr. Simmons at trial, could have led to what he called the perfect storm. Okay. But the prosecution's star witness, another doctor, Dr. Mark Pressman, argues no. Ben's crime wasn't a parasomnia disorder. This was fully a choice. He mentioned that Ben would have had to unsheathe the knife before using it. He's like, that's not natural. He just barely got this knife. That's a conscious decision. He said, "It was also very strange for Ben to recall details of the event the way he did if he was actually sleepwalking."

• 52:32Payton Moreland?

  If you remember, he did say he remembered the feeling of the knife piercing Megan's neck. He's like, "That wouldn't be as tangible if he was sleepwalking, but..." Also stabbed twice. Maybe the second one is what woke him up. And so he really did physically remember that and he only remembered one stabbing.

• 52:52Garrett Moreland?

  I just still think it's comical that two experts in their field can disagree with each other.

• 52:58Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 52:58Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, it happens so much now and I think it's a little comical.

• 53:02Payton Moreland?

  But I also want to point something out that I just, to me, is a little silly. This prosecution star witness, this doctor, Dr. Pressman, okay, who's going to get up and like contradict the other doctor, basically, he never spoke or worked with Ben directly, ever. So he's going to get up and testify that Ben did not have a parasomnia, sleeping disorder that was like big enough to do this, that this was a conscious choice, but he never even spoke to Ben. He never even did studies on him. He never anything.

• 53:32Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 53:32Payton Moreland?

  I'm like, how can you speak so confidently about a subject, right? Like Ben is the subject of this study that you didn't even like study yourself.

• 53:41Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, it's dumb.

• 53:42Payton Moreland?

  It just feels a little weird to me. He came to all of these conclusions from afar, but that didn't keep the prosecution from building their theory. Ben did this intentionally, used a pillow to muffle his sister's screams. He stabbed her not once, but twice. And when he realized he wasn't going to get away with it, he called 911 and then used a very smart alibi of sleepwalking. Now, the prosecutor, Megan Long, even said in her closing arguments that Ben's parents had helped in reinforcing his alibi and therefore they had committed a cover up to protect their son. So she throws the parents under the bus as well.

• 54:19Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh. Okay. I'm not going to lie. We're getting, I mean, I get it, but they're.

• 54:24Payton Moreland?

  I don't get that.

• 54:25Garrett Moreland?

  It just feels like they're reaching at this point.

• 54:27Payton Moreland?

  I just don't get that because if you, I mean, this is what their son's telling them. They have a choice to believe their son or not. That's not committing a cover up.

• 54:35Garrett Moreland?

  Lowkey, I feel like this prosecution is acting like a bunch of Tik Tokers on Tik Tok, being like, no, well, they did this. They did this. Like, it just seems very immature and not professional to me.

• 54:47Payton Moreland?

  Basically, the prosecutor's like, they already lost one child. They don't want to lose another. They know he's guilty, but they don't want to lose another child.

• 54:53Garrett Moreland?

  I feel like I'm in like the Tik Tok comment section right now. Anyways, keep going.

• 54:57Payton Moreland?

  She even at one point looks at the jury and says, quote, I want you to look in this courtroom. There are so many people here for Benjamin and there is not one person here for Megan. Which is like actually insane.

• 55:13Garrett Moreland?

  There's no way.

• 55:13Payton Moreland?

  That is like actually to me.

• 55:16Garrett Moreland?

  You're lying.

• 55:16Payton Moreland?

  What do you mean? Those are her parents.

• 55:19Garrett Moreland?

  That is.

• 55:19Payton Moreland?

  They lost a daughter.

• 55:21Garrett Moreland?

  Who is?

• 55:22Payton Moreland?

  You don't think they're not there for Megan?

• 55:25Garrett Moreland?

  By what I said earlier about this prosecution sucks.

• 55:28Payton Moreland?

  And don't get me wrong, there have been cases where I'm like, ooh, these parents are kind of acting nasty. Like, I understand loving your son, but they're protecting him a little too much. This is not that case. This is not Brian Laundrie's parents.

• 55:40Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 55:40Payton Moreland?

  You know what I mean? Like, this is, does not feel like that to me. Anyways.

• 55:45Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 55:46Payton Moreland?

  There was an objection from the defense, but the judge was like, go ahead, continue. Just because it's rude doesn't mean you can't say it. She says, quote, "You have to be her hero, the jury, because no one's here for her. He knew exactly what he was doing. There has been no remorse shown here in this courtroom by him." Now, she wasn't wrong about that. Ben barely shed a tear during the trial. He was very, like, off. And this was something the jurors literally took into consideration as they left to deliberate. But I do want to note that oftentimes, a defense team will just tell their client to just not show any emotion

• 56:28Payton Moreland?

  because no emotion is better than emotion that people can read into. So oftentimes, they are directed to just, like, keep it down. Don't, don't show anything, don't bat an eye. So this is kind of hard because he might have been instructed to do so. You know what I mean?

• 56:43Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 56:44Payton Moreland?

  And again, also crazy to look at the jury and be like, you need to save this girl when her parents are sitting right there.

• 56:49Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, so what did the jury say?

• 56:51Payton Moreland?

  So they deliberate for five hours. Many of the jury said they knew someone or were sleepwalkers themselves.

• 57:00Garrett Moreland?

  See, that's me. Like, I, the reason I think I believe this case a little more is because, like, I've experienced that firsthand.

• 57:07Payton Moreland?

  Yes.

• 57:07Garrett Moreland?

  Like, I grew up sleepwalking.

• 57:09Payton Moreland?

  So after hearing four days of testimony, the jurors came back with a verdict. They found 21-year-old Benjamin Elliott.

• 57:18Payton Moreland?

  Guilty of first degree murder.

• 57:19Garrett Moreland?

  Man, that not what I was expecting, but here we are.

• 57:22Payton Moreland?

  I will say it was still a good thing. He didn't take that deal. The judge went pretty easy on him. After the members of the jury were like, listen, we want him to have leniency. He's guilty of first degree murder, but please give him leniency.

• 57:33Garrett Moreland?

  Why would you say he's guilty of first degree murder?

• 57:35Payton Moreland?

  Well, they said it was just more for the family than anything. They're like, they already lost one kid. They don't deserve to lose another.

• 57:41Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know. It sounds like some of the jury was like, I don't think he did it, but we're gonna say he did it.

• 57:46Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean, here's the thing.

• 57:50Garrett Moreland?

  This one's got me a little confused.

• 57:52Payton Moreland?

  I think that it's hard for, okay, let me just put this out here. I have a definite bias against this case because I had seen all of this footage before really doing a deep dive.

• 58:03Garrett Moreland?

  And it seemed pretty believable.

• 58:05Payton Moreland?

  It may, it tugged at my heartstrings. I felt bad for the parents. I thought that Ben's reaction was believable.

• 58:12Garrett Moreland?

  Valid, believable, I mean.

• 58:14Payton Moreland?

  Like, it seemed like he was in pure shock. But then it was also frustrating because you're like, bro, like, how did you do this? But like, he also almost seems that way.

• 58:23Garrett Moreland?

  So he's in jail, like, what was the?

• 58:25Payton Moreland?

  So they asked for leniency and Ben was given 15 years in prison and he'll be eligible for parole.

• 58:31Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 58:32Payton Moreland?

  In August of 2032. That's when he's 28.

• 58:33Garrett Moreland?

  You know, even if he was sleepwalking and that's real, I feel like a 10 to 15 year sentence is probably what he should get, like 10 years.

• 58:43Payton Moreland?

  For like manslaughter, you're saying?

• 58:44Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, to me, it's like manslaughter.

• 58:46Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, but if it's truly not his fault.

• 58:48Garrett Moreland?

  Yes, I know, I agree. And so, yeah, maybe he shouldn't get anything. I don't know.

• 58:52Payton Moreland?

  But it's different than like getting behind the wheel of a car. Like, if you get behind the wheel of a car, you're knowingly getting into a death machine.

• 58:59Garrett Moreland?

  How do you prove this?

• 59:01Payton Moreland?

  We all have to fall asleep.

• 59:02Garrett Moreland?

  Like, I'm, it's just hard to, because once someone doesn't get convicted because they were sleepwalking.

• 59:07Payton Moreland?

  And I think that's why this.

• 59:08Garrett Moreland?

  It opens up this can of worms to everyone can be like, oh, I was sleepwalking.

• 59:13Payton Moreland?

  Which I think a jury is aware of. Like, it is very dangerous to believe someone.

• 59:17Garrett Moreland?

  If it's not that person's fault, should they be in prison? Like, they were sleeping.

• 59:22Payton Moreland?

  This is why.

• 59:24Garrett Moreland?

  I don't like this case. I'm not a fan.

• 59:27Payton Moreland?

  Cause at the end of the day, it really just comes down, do you believe him or not?

• 59:30Garrett Moreland?

  Well, here's the thing. It just comes down to whoever the jury is.

• 59:33Payton Moreland?

  There was no blood spatter, the pillow. I mean, they had some arguments. Like, do I think it's possible to sleepwalk? Yes. I don't even think that's the question here.

• 59:42Garrett Moreland?

  I literally think the judge probably believes it was sleepwalking because he wouldn't have just given, given him 15 years. He would have said, hey, like you're in prison for life.

• 59:50Payton Moreland?

  He did so at the jury being like, judge, please be lenient.

• 59:53Garrett Moreland?

  But still, if you truly believe like that person killed someone, first degree murder, you'd be like, sorry dude, you're going to jail for life.

• 1:00:00Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, first degree. Here's the thing.

• 1:00:02Garrett Moreland?

  Obviously people in there were like, oh, there's a chance.

• 1:00:05Payton Moreland?

  The question is, did he sleepwalk and kill his sister or did he kill his sister?

• 1:00:09Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:11Payton Moreland?

  And it's like, honestly, is there evidence for both? Kinda.

• 1:00:14Garrett Moreland?

  Correct.

• 1:00:14Payton Moreland?

  I mean, them saying there's no blood spatter, which to us means this pillow was put here before the stabbing. That feels premeditated, but also what if he really just did it that way in his sleep?

• 1:00:26Garrett Moreland?

  The thing is, if there's evidence for both, then you, he doesn't go to prison.

• 1:00:29Payton Moreland?

  A hundred percent.

• 1:00:31Garrett Moreland?

  We've done, we've had crazier cases where people should have gone to prison because it looked like they should have and they didn't get anything.

• 1:00:38Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Garrett Moreland?

  Anyways.

• 1:00:39Payton Moreland?

  Okay. So he'll be eligible for parole at 28.

• 1:00:42Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:43Payton Moreland?

  But Ben's case is an unsettling one because if his claims are true, it forces us all to look at things in a different light. What is really going on in our minds when we sleep? Do we actually have control over our bodies or can they betray us in ways we never thought were possible? And if that's the case, what's stopping us from destroying the things in this world we are most connected to? Because I sleep next to you every single night. Something as precious, unique and irreplaceable as our own flesh and blood can apparently be murdered. If you're asleep and that is the case of Meghan Elliott.

• 1:01:20Garrett Moreland?

  Crazy. I'm going to think on this one for a second because I do not know how I feel.

• 1:01:25Payton Moreland?

  I mean, I think it's just kind of safe to say this case is, it's. It's almost like public opinion. Like, I don't, you either believe him or you don't. And like I said, there's maybe evidence to show both. So you can't really look at the prosecution and be like, well, you're 100% wrong. How do you 100% know? But then you also can't really look at the defense and be like, how do you 100% know? Cause it's like, how do you?

• 1:01:48Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I know.

• 1:01:51Payton Moreland?

  You just have to go with what, you know? I think for me, it was like the speed at which he called 911.

• 1:01:56Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Payton Moreland?

  To me is a big one.

• 1:01:58Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 1:01:59Payton Moreland?

  Cause it feels like maybe he would have waited a little longer before calling.

• 1:02:02Garrett Moreland?

  I think for sure, yeah.

• 1:02:04Payton Moreland?

  I don't know. Anyways, that was our episode. Thank you all for listening. Please let us know your, your thoughts on this over on our Instagram and we will see you next time with another one. I love it.

• 1:02:14Garrett Moreland?

  And I hate it.

• 1:02:15Payton Moreland?

  Goodbye.

• 1:02:24Speaker 00

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