259. The Therapist That Prescribed Murder!

In this episode, Payton and Garrett unravel the chilling murder plot orchestrated by a psychiatrist with a sinister agenda. Links: NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: TheNYPost.com - https://nypost.com/2022/09/07/psychiatrist-admits-to-role-in-bludgeoning-of-baby-daddy/ CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jake-nolan-case-psychiatric-defenses-often-problematic-in-criminal-cases-expert/ ManhattanDA.org - https://manhattanda.org/d-a-bragg-announces-guilty-plea-of-pamela-buchbinder-for-plot-to-kill-dr-michael-weiss/ ABCNews.go - https://abcnews.go.com/US/york-psychiatrist-sentenced-sledgehammer-murder-plot-case/story?id=91354227 PsychSearch.net - https://www.psychsearch.net/pamela-buchbinder/ CaseText.com - https://casetext.com/case/weiss-v-nolan MedScape.com - https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/982376?form=fpf ABC7NY.com - https://abc7ny.com/pamela-buchbinder-sentencing-plot-murder/12315051/ NBCNewYork.com - https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/psychiatrist-sentenced-for-plot-to-have-bipolar-cousin-kill-childs-dad-with-sledgehammer/3903286/ NewYorkTimes.com - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/15/nyregion/jurors-reject-brainwashing-defense-in-attempted-murder-trial.html TimesOfIsrael.com - https://www.timesofisrael.com/manhattan-psychiatrist-charged-with-attempting-to-murder-her-sons-father/ MiamiHerald.com - https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article265486181.html WTVR.com - https://www.wtvr.com/2016/12/03/patient-accused-of-trying-to-kill-psychiatrists-ex-lover Law. Justia.com - https://law.justia.com/cases/new-york/appellate-division-first-department/2018/30222-17-30207-17-3160-17-101651-17-101532-17.html Syracuse.com - https://www.syracuse.com/crime/2017/10/nyc_psychiatrist_accused_of_plotting_sledgehammer_murder_of_ex_arrested_in_cny.html Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

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• 0:45Payton Moreland?

  You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with My Husband. I'm Payton Moreland.

• 0:51Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm Garrett Moreland.

• 0:52Payton Moreland?

  And he's the husband.

• 0:53Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm the husband.

• 0:54Payton Moreland?

  Well, I'm looking out the window right now and it's snowing.

• 1:00Garrett Moreland?

  It's like not good snow. It's like snowing and then just not sticking, like slush.

• 1:06Payton Moreland?

  It's sloppy snow.

• 1:08Garrett Moreland?

  Sucks. But everybody, I hope everyone is, I mean, Monday, so I hope everyone has a good week. Hope everyone had a good weekend.

• 1:19Payton Moreland?

  You ever thought about the fact we're just like bumping in people's ears or speakers?

• 1:25Payton Moreland?

  That weird, like, I listen to podcasts and then the other day I had this like weird experience where I was listening. I was like, wait, there's people where this is my voice.

• 1:33Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, it's kind of interesting. I don't know. I guess we don't really, I don't really think about it. I just, I just do. You know what I'm saying? But it is kind of weird. It is weird. For anyone interested in who wants bonus episodes and ad free content, you can check out our Patreon or Apple subscriptions or Spotify subscriptions and the link below, wherever you're listening or watching. And I think we still have some ghosty sweaters left, at least as of now. Could be gone by the time this episode's out. You can check those out as well.

• 2:03Payton Moreland?

  You guys.

• 2:04Garrett Moreland?

  Those are the announcements.

• 2:05Payton Moreland?

  Bonus episodes. You get extra Murder with My Husband episodes and ad free on all of our shows.

• 2:14Garrett Moreland?

  It's true.

• 2:15Payton Moreland?

  That's double click right now. You're dumb if you don't.

• 2:21Payton Moreland?

  I'm just kidding. You're not dumb. You're loved and so good and smart. You got your 10 seconds.

• 2:29Garrett Moreland?

  I don't think, I don't know if I can follow that.

• 2:31Payton Moreland?

  The crowds are saying, shut her up.

• 2:33Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah. Um, I got a whoop. If, for those who don't know what a whoop is, like an Apple Watch without a screen, but it just tracks all your health. And I like it a lot. Um, it's not an ad. It's just, I got a whoop and I like it because the Apple Watch is a little too heavy. Also, like, I don't check my messages on there. I don't check calls. I do everything on my phone. I always have my phone with me. So it's nice. The whoop just does everything. Um, I think it even does more than what the Apple Watch does. Puts it all on the app. Um, and yeah, anyways, I got a whoop. Um, I've been using it for pickleball and weightlifting. So I guess that's my fun fact of the day. For those who are curious, I am still

• 3:19Garrett Moreland?

  eating healthy, weighing my food. It's depressing, but it's also happy at the same time. Hard to explain. Have a lot of energy. I feel good. But do I want to just go and eat a dozen donuts? Yes. Yes, I do. Did I want to order three pizzas last night? Yes. Yes, I did. I didn't though. I blame the USA for having a lot of good food. That's all. I don't know. Nothing else other than that. That's what I got going. On that note, let's hop into today's episode.

• 3:54Payton Moreland?

  Our sources for this episode are the New York Post.com, CBS News, ManhattanDA.org, ABC News, PsychSearch.net, casetext.com, Medscape.com, ABC7NewYork.com, NBCNewYork.com, NewYorkTimes.com, TimesOfIsrael.com, MiamiHarold, WTVR.com, LawJustia.com, and Syracuse.com.

• 4:15Payton Moreland?

  You know me at all, actually me and Garrett, you know that we are big on mental wellness. I think it's important to journal, check in with yourself, give your mind a day off when you need it. And frankly, I think we are lucky to live in a world where mental health is finally getting taken a little more seriously. Just a few short decades ago, if you were to ask off of work for a mental health day, you probably would have been laughed out of the office or fired. But now people understand that mental well being is just as, if not sometimes more important than your physical well being, especially in cases where the mind affects the body. But when it comes to the nuances of mental health conditions, like really understanding

• 5:00Payton Moreland?

  how they all work and operate, we have a long way to go. That's where therapy and psychiatry come in. Sometimes the only option someone has is to place all their trust in these professionals. And I have definitely been there. Sometimes that is the only path towards a normal life, it seems. What you never expect is for a mental health professional to break that trust, to manipulate that bond for their own gain, especially when you're at your most vulnerable. And especially when they are also a member of your own family.

• 5:41Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 5:42Payton Moreland?

  Let's get into it. Let's take a trip to New York City. We're going to dial back the clock to 2012. Garrett is about to graduate high school.

• 5:53Garrett Moreland?

  True.

• 5:54Payton Moreland?

  He's wearing, he's wearing, he's wearing, he's wearing skinny jeans and vans. What were you wearing?

• 6:04Garrett Moreland?

  2012.

• 6:05Payton Moreland?

  You're senior.

• 6:06Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know if I was wearing, was I wearing skinny jeans 2012? No, I think I was wearing more like slim fit jeans 2012. I think the skinny phase was like 2007, 2008.

• 6:17Payton Moreland?

  What about shoes?

• 6:19Garrett Moreland?

  Vans, definitely had vans, yeah.

• 6:21Payton Moreland?

  I was wearing eyeliner, dark black eyeliner, all the way around my eyes, absolutely no makeup on my eyebrows and Toms.

• 6:30Garrett Moreland?

  Toms, so many people, I never.

• 6:33Payton Moreland?

  You never got into Toms?

• 6:35Garrett Moreland?

  So many people in my school wore Toms and I was like, you know what? I'm not wearing Toms.

• 6:38Payton Moreland?

  I was a Toms girl through and through.

• 6:41Garrett Moreland?

  Guess what, though? Kind of happy about it because Toms fell off and Vans never did.

• 6:46Payton Moreland?

  Oh, see, I'm happy about it because I can be like, no, I was one of the Toms girls.

• 6:50Garrett Moreland?

  I said, I think I was just, not that I was anti-Tom. They also just, I don't know, conversation for another day. But, sorry, before we get back into it, they did donate a lot of shoes. So it was a good thing.

• 7:01Payton Moreland?

  So, we're in New York City, 2012. It's there that we meet a 20-year-old man named Jacob Nolan. Now Jake did not have an easy time up until this point in his life, though you might not have predicted that from his early years. Because seemingly Jake grew up in a stable household, the third of three children to Debbie and Jim Nolan, who was a wealthy real estate investor. But it was clear from an early age, money and wealth aside, Jake was not like the other children. He was incredibly smart, gifted by some accounts, but if you asked his parents, he was an innovator, always looking to build or create something new.

• 7:47Payton Moreland?

  But by the time Jake turned five, his parents noticed a few signs in him that became alarming. And while I don't know what Jake's symptoms were, I know he was diagnosed at that early of an age with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, better known as ADHD.

• 8:05Payton Moreland?

  Now, let's just be clear, ADHD is a fairly common condition affecting about 11% of kids between the ages of five and 17. It can lead to lack of focus, make it hard to pay attention in school, control your impulses, as well as mood swings and hyperactivity. But it is one of the better understood disorders, so that means it's a bit easier to treat than other conditions, though not in everyone's case, like Jake Nolan's. As Jake got into his teenage years, his family noticed that his mood swings were getting more unpredictable. The highs were higher and the lows were a lot lower.

• 8:46Payton Moreland?

  For example, while in high school, Jake put that innovative side of himself to the test, and he actually created an iPhone app that was meant to be a study tool for his classmates. He even won a prestigious award for it. But that feeling of success only lasted for so long. A month later, Jake was having a hard time getting out of bed in the mornings, let alone packing his bags and heading off to school. It was at that point he was diagnosed with depression and anxiety. And while I don't know what Jake's treatment plan was, I do know that by age 17, he had made a suicide attempt. Jake was hospitalized after the event, but was then given a more severe diagnosis: bipolar disorder.

• 9:29Payton Moreland?

  Now bipolar disorder can include drastic mood swings, like elevated euphoria to severe depression, along with other symptoms like anxiety, irritability, even cognitive issues like memory loss or poor judgment. So by the time Jake actually entered his college years, his doctors have tried upward of 30 different medications to try and manage this.

• 9:52Garrett Moreland?

  That's a lot.

• 9:53Payton Moreland?

  Though, none of them really seemed to help in the way he'd hoped. And honestly, this is like devastating. It is absolutely devastating, and things only got worse for Jake once he was alone. That's when he began self-medicating with things like drugs and alcohol, and making it to class became the least of Jake's problems. But that's when his parents had an idea. Jake should just go stay with his cousin Pamela in her New York City apartment for a bit. After all, if anyone could help Jake full time, it was her because she was a psychiatrist. They're like, get him out of his environment. Let's switch it up. Let's have him go stay with his cousin Pamela,

• 10:33Payton Moreland?

  who is a psychiatrist who knows more about this and maybe she can help him turn things around.

• 10:39Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 10:39Payton Moreland?

  But I don't, I don't think that commonly bipolar disorder is as easy as like, let's just turn things around. But they're hoping that this can help. So Pamela Buckbinder was a bit older than Jake by about 23 years. The two had seemingly been close for a lot of Jake's life. So close that he was practically the godfather to her four-year-old son Calder. So 43-year-old Pamela made an agreement with Jake and his parents. He could come stay with her, get daily therapy sessions while she helped monitor his medication, which this is like amazing. And in return, he could help around the house and kind of help her raise Calder.

• 11:21Payton Moreland?

  Now Pamela wasn't married. In fact, she and her ex-boyfriend, Michael Wise, had Calder together. But since they had broken up about a year or so prior, they had been splitting custody of their son. So in a way, this situation was beneficial for both Jake and Pamela. The two could rely on one another and it seemed to honestly be doing good for Jake, at least at first. He moved there and Jake started holding himself to a higher standard now that Calder was looking up to him. He felt purpose in life, like he had to set a good example for him. Jake had always wanted to have his own family, but his mental health seemed to stand in the way of making that possible.

• 12:01Payton Moreland?

  But now, in a way, he had achieved those dreams by getting closer with Calder and Pamela. But over time, it became clear, there was something wrong with the dynamic between Jake and his cousin Pamela. It seemed to start with a photo of Jake and Pamela in bed together with Calder one morning. So whether or not he posted this on social media, I'm not really sure. But I know that the image started to go around and it definitely made Jake's parents like, why is he in bed with his 43-year-old cousin and her son? Like, this doesn't look like they're cousins.

• 12:44Payton Moreland?

  Hanging out with the child. This looks like a different type of picture.

• 12:47Garrett Moreland?

  We've got to be in Alabama or something.

• 12:49Payton Moreland?

  They became even more suspicious when they actually found some texts between Pamela and Jake on Jake's cellphone. Messages that read things like, "You are remarkable. My love for you is huge. You're the most fun person to love."

• 13:03Garrett Moreland?

  What's going on?

• 13:04Payton Moreland?

  "I have so many thoughts about you." But here's the thing. Jake tells everyone that he and Pamela were never physical or romantic with one another, that it was just words and nothing more. But the truth was Pamela did have an agenda. She knew exactly what she was trying to do by sending Jake these lovey, sweet texts. And the psychiatrist Pamela was not actually falling in love with her cousin. She was trying to manipulate him, weaponize him, all for her own gain, knowing that he was struggling with his mental well-being.

• 13:45Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, well, I don't understand what gain, though. I mean, I guess we'll get into it because if she's not in love with him, what is she gaining from this?

• 13:52Payton Moreland?

  So.

• 13:53Garrett Moreland?

  That's my question.

• 13:54Speaker 04

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• 14:21Payton Moreland?

  All right, guys, we're jumping into an ad. And if you are like me, protecting the people inside your home is a top priority. I have Daisy at home, I'm about to have a baby at home, and Garrett and me. And there are a lot of times where I've thought about our safety, but that is where SimpliSafe comes in and has had my back, honestly, for years. Unlike traditional security systems that only alert you after a break-in is already underway, SimpliSafe is built to stop it before it starts, which is exactly what I'm looking for. I don't even want someone in my home. I want it stopped before the alarm has even gone off. Smart AI-powered cameras watch for potential threats and alert a live US-based

• 15:06Payton Moreland?

  security specialist, ready to intervene. The agent intervenes in under 30 seconds, speaking through the camera to stop an intruder in their tracks, calling for urgent 911 dispatch when it's needed most. And we've partnered with SimpliSafe to offer our listeners their biggest savings of the year: 70% off your new system with professional monitoring. If you've been thinking about a security system, it is now. 70% off, guys, when you visit simplisafe.com/husband. That is simplisafe.com/husband. And when you order, just write in "Murder with my husband" at checkout. Tells them we sent you, really helps the show. SimpliSafe: Ahead of Crime in Real Time. A little backstory on Pamela.

• 15:49Payton Moreland?

  As I mentioned, the psychiatrist had fallen in love years before with another New York City psychiatrist named Michael Weiss. He was the father of her four-year-old son. Now, I'm not sure how long Pamela and Michael were together for, but I know it was a while because while they never got married, Michael was seen as family. I mean, he had attended parties for Jake, so he had been around for at least close to a decade, if not longer, since Jake was now in his twenties. So he'd been a part of Pamela's family. Though despite both of them being mental health professionals, the relationship they shared was actually pretty toxic.

• 16:33Payton Moreland?

  Not only was it on-again, off-again, both sides claimed that there were instances of domestic violence from the other.

• 16:40Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 16:41Payton Moreland?

  And though Pamela had actually been arrested for it before, during one fight, she attacked Michael with a broken glass and he ended up needing stitches. I guess on another occasion, Michael was arrested after Pamela reported him for attempting to assault her.

• 16:57Garrett Moreland?

  You know, which is maybe opening up a can of worms, but which is really interesting. It happens a lot, whether you're a mental health professional, you're a doctor, whatever industry you're working in. Like, there's a lot of doctors who are really unhealthy. There's mental health professionals who are good at teaching what they do, but then they're struggling or they're having issues in their marriage. So it's really interesting that...

• 17:24Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know. It just, it happens with everything within, in any industry.

• 17:28Payton Moreland?

  You know, I will say though, there are a lot of people who are really good at inspiring and teaching

• 17:34Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 17:34Payton Moreland?

  and not doing. You know what I mean?

• 17:37Garrett Moreland?

  I agree with that.

• 17:38Payton Moreland?

  And I do think that's a talent in and of itself. Like there are dance coaches out there who cannot

• 17:42Garrett Moreland?

  Dance to save their lives.

• 17:43Payton Moreland?

  But they can teach dance really well. And I think that that's with any profession.

• 17:48Garrett Moreland?

  Which is kind of interesting.

• 17:49Payton Moreland?

  Don't worry you guys. I can teach you how to podcast and I can podcast.

• 17:54Garrett Moreland?

  It's basically do as I say, not as I do.

• 17:56Payton Moreland?

  Right. So that's kind of what's going on with them. Both of them have been in trouble with the law for hurting the other person. The whole thing's really ugly, not the kind of loving partnership you would want to bring a kid into. And nonetheless, Pamela had their son in 2008. But she and Michael actually broke up for good shortly after she had their baby. By 2012, during the time Jake was in New York City, living with Pamela, she and Michael were actually in a heated custody battle over Calder. And Jake was hearing every single update of what was going on, or at least Pamela's side of things. She told Jake that Michael was refusing to pay child support, that he wouldn't sign the financial aid

• 18:40Payton Moreland?

  papers she needed to get Calder into school, which were supposedly allies and soon got a lot more intense. Pamela told Jake, Michael had been abusing Calder when he stayed with him.

• 18:56Payton Moreland?

  So Pamela tells Jake, the way that she's sending sweet, lovey messages to that also happens to be her cousin, that her ex-husband is abusing her child when he goes and stays with him.

• 19:08Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 19:09Payton Moreland?

  There's absolutely zero evidence of that, but Pamela doesn't tell Jake that. She just told him over and over practically daily how horrible it was, to the point where Jake was really worried about Calder and it was all he could focus on. But Pamela knew exactly what she was doing. This seemed to be a part of a long con she had been assembling for months. She welcomed Jake into her home. She preyed on his mental health condition. She manipulated him into believing her and taking her side. And then she was going to use him as a weapon to carry out a sadistic plan. And it was working.

• 19:43Garrett Moreland?

  Okay. I think I know where this is going.

• 19:45Payton Moreland?

  So from what I could gather.

• 19:46Garrett Moreland?

  Took me a second.

• 19:48Payton Moreland?

  This was at least a year. Jake lived with Pamela for a year and this was happening the entire time. And by November 2012, Jake was fully indoctrinated into Pamela's way of thinking. She had told him enough horror stories about Michael. She had completely, honestly, kind of brainwashed Jake.

• 20:08Garrett Moreland?

  That's so sad.

• 20:09Payton Moreland?

  And that's when she sat Jake down and told him, there's only one way to keep Calder safe. Like this has gotten way too far. This is such a dangerous situation. We need to get rid of Michael Wise, once and for all.

• 20:21Garrett Moreland?

  This is such a long con plan. It's so messed up.

• 20:27Payton Moreland?

  Now, I-

• 20:27Garrett Moreland?

  But also the fact that like she's sticking to this and she's like, I'm gonna brainwash him into killing my ex-husband.

• 20:33Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 20:34Garrett Moreland?

  That's wild.

• 20:35Payton Moreland?

  Now, I'm, I'm just gonna like quickly point out, Jake is a full grown adult. But he is in a power dynamic. Not only is Pamela years older than him, in her 40s, she's also established. She's a psychiatrist. She has seen him and helped him through extremely hard times. So you automatically look up to that person and put them on a pedestal for saving you. It is honestly a really easy situation to manipulate for a therapist to manipulate a patient, especially if she's kind of flirting with him and almost leading him to believe that their relationship is even more than that.

• 21:16Garrett Moreland?

  Uh huh.

• 21:16Payton Moreland?

  So Jake listened patiently as Pamela laid out the different plans. See, she didn't just want Michael out of the picture. She actually told Jake that she wanted Michael, her ex-boyfriend, to suffer. She talked about the gruesome possibilities, injecting him-

• 21:32Garrett Moreland?

  She's insane.

• 21:33Payton Moreland?

  Injecting him with poison, making him die a slow death, burning him alive in front of a crowd.

• 21:40Garrett Moreland?

  How can this lady be a psychiatrist? What?

• 21:45Payton Moreland?

  Do as I say, not as I do.

• 21:46Garrett Moreland?

  But- I mean, other can of worms, I'm gonna open it. Um, I think certain professions, being a doctor, psychiatrist, I don't know, attorneys. I know they do have like precautions and stuff in place. But you almost need to like, if you're like a psychiatrist, like every year, you need to go in for a psych eval. You know what I'm saying?

• 22:09Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, but do they know how to lie?

• 22:10Garrett Moreland?

  They do, they do. So I don't know, maybe he doesn't stop it. That's crazy, crazy. Okay.

• 22:15Payton Moreland?

  There's a lot of people out there who offer guidance. Sometimes they're not even licensed to do so and people will follow.

• 22:24Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Payton Moreland?

  Look at cult leaders.

• 22:26Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Payton Moreland?

  So Pamela was showing no mercy, but she also knew that none of these were fast or practical. So on the night of November 11th, 2012, she and Jake settled on a plan that they could actually execute. That night, Jake went to Home Depot and bought a 10 pound sledgehammer.

• 22:48Garrett Moreland?

  Holy crap.

• 22:50Payton Moreland?

  When he got home, Pamela hand drew him a map of how to get to Michael's West 57th Street High Rise, where he both lived and worked. So the following morning, Jake wakes up early. He laid in bed as Pamela stroked his back, fed him words of encouragement, remember their cousins. She told him how much she loved him, how he was saving their lives and how life was gonna get better. Once Michael was quote terminated. She gave Jake a knife to take along with that duffel bag filled with his 10 pound sledgehammer and that hand drawn map. She even told Jake what song she wanted him to play when the murder was committed.

• 23:33Garrett Moreland?

  What is going on?

• 23:36Payton Moreland?

  Maxwell's Silver Hammer by The Beatles.

• 23:40Payton Moreland?

  And then she sent the 20-year-old Jake on his way. So Jake said he started to have second thoughts about the whole thing while he was on the way. He was nervous, he wanted to back out. The problem was, he knew he couldn't go back to Pamela without saying the job was done, so he kept moving forward. When he got to 57th Street, he checked the map Pamela had drawn him, which happened to show multiple different entrances to the building, including the ones that had the least security measures. Now, whether or not Jake followed those instructions, though, is unclear because when he got inside, he actually checked in with the security guard at the front desk. He said he was heading to a tutoring center called Bright Kids. He even signed in using his real name.

• 24:23Payton Moreland?

  Then Jake got in the elevator and hit the button for the 12th floor, headed straight for Michael Weiss's psychiatry office. Now, when Jake got there, he noticed that Michael was actually in session with a patient. But rather than take a seat in his waiting room, Jake left the office and went to the building stairwell while he waited for Michael's session to end. After the patient left, Jake went back inside. Remember, Michael knows Jake. He'd known him since he was a kid. He's gonna recognize him. So when he sees Jake, he's of course like, "What are you doing here? What, why did my ex-girlfriend send you?" But Jake and Pamela had planned for that.

• 25:05Payton Moreland?

  Jake told Michael he needed him to print out and sign some forms for Calder's financial aid. Michael's like, "Kate, let's go. Let's get this over with." Jake says, "Great, I'm gonna use the bathroom while you do that." In the meantime, he locks himself in there and he starts pulling out his weapons. Jake then comes out of the restroom. He approaches Michael and he swings that sledgehammer at him, but he misses.

• 25:30Payton Moreland?

  Michael saw him. He ducks out of the way. Jake only manages to hit him on the tip of the shoulder. So Michael starts fighting back. Now eventually Jake drops the sledgehammer because it's not a very practical weapon and he gets a hold of his knife and starts jabbing at Michael. He stabs him about seven or eight times in the stomach, his back, his chest, before Michael actually starts to overpower Jake.

• 26:00Garrett Moreland?

  Oh shoot.

• 26:01Payton Moreland?

  Despite the fact he stabbed, which I do want to say, Michael is six foot three. He's 205 pounds. Jake is nowhere that big.

• 26:10Garrett Moreland?

  Let's go.

• 26:11Payton Moreland?

  So Michael, despite being stabbed, wrestles the knife from Jake's hand and he begins stabbing him.

• 26:18Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 26:18Payton Moreland?

  So it's self-defense. So by now, the two aren't even inside Michael's office slash home anymore. They have now made their way out into the hallway. Obviously, this is loud. A neighbor comes out, sees what's going on, actually gets the two men separated and calls 911.

• 26:37Speaker 05

  911, raise emergency. This guy's screaming like crazy for help. I think it's a psychologist. He would have had a client who was nuts.

• 26:44Payton Moreland?

  Both men at this point are stabbed.

• 26:45Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, this is going to be a mess, which I'm glad no one died, first of all. Second of all, I mean, obviously she's insane. I don't know what to say about him because I mean, he's clearly brainwashed, like.

• 26:59Payton Moreland?

  I think.

• 27:00Garrett Moreland?

  Obviously, he, he can make his own choices, but it's hard when you get to that extent. I mean, can you make your own choices? Is it his own choices?

• 27:09Payton Moreland?

  Well, let me tell you the aftermath, what happens next. And I think it will go to show you that I don't think Jake really in his right frame of mind. Okay. So Jake does something that shows you just how bizarre this is. So when they separate, they're both stabbed, the neighbor's calling police, he doesn't try to run away. He doesn't try to get out of the building. He just sits there with Michael after this fight, waiting for ambulances to arrive. And in the meantime, he gets his phone out, he takes a selfie of himself covered in blood and sends it to Pamela and asks her, okay, he's not dead. We're just like, I'm just sitting here, the police are coming, what should I do?

• 27:51Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, poor guy. I mean, I, they're both alive, so I can kinda say poor guy, but I know, he's clearly brainwashed, like, he's clearly a hundred percent brainwashed.

• 28:05Payton Moreland?

  He is an adult, but like, no, no adult in their right mind would sit and ask Pamela what to do next. You would be like, shoot, I gotta get out of here, but he is looking to her so much for what to do.

• 28:17Garrett Moreland?

  That's insane.

• 28:18Payton Moreland?

  Pamela doesn't respond. So, police arrive, Jake's like, well, I don't know what to do. So he says, no, no, I came over here to get this signed and, and Michael tried to kill me first. He says, Michael initiated this fight. Meanwhile, Michael's saying to the police, are you kidding? He came in here with a sledgehammer. I had to fight back, I got the knife from him. But that's all police get out of them before they are both taken to the hospital. Now, none of them have suffered life-threatening injuries, though ironically, Jake actually was more banged up out of the two of them.

• 28:55Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 28:55Payton Moreland?

  So, it's from the hospital bed that Jake texts Pamela again. And since he still hasn't heard back from her from the first text, which now he's growing frantic, he feels like he's been abandoned, he writes to her, in hospital, please come, Michael bleeding badly, same, I walked into office, he stabbed me with my knife in the heart. And this time, he gets a response from Pamela, but it's just one word. She says, where? So Pamela does eventually go down to the hospital.

• 29:28Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, wow.

• 29:29Payton Moreland?

  But she's told at that point that she's not allowed to see Jake because not only is Jake under arrest for attempted murder and handcuffed to his hospital bed. Doctors are determining that he is definitely currently suffering from a mental break that was triggered during the attack and he is now in a very manic state.

• 29:49Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 29:50Payton Moreland?

  Later, Jake says, I was in a full blown psychotic episode.

• 29:55Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 29:55Payton Moreland?

  Like, that's what is happening at the hospital. Now, Michael is stitched up and is discharged within a day or so, but Jake, he stays in the hospital for the next four days. And one of his first stops when he's released is to the courtroom to appear before a judge. He's charged with second degree murder. His bell is set at $200,000. He meets it and in the meantime, he heads to his parents' house in Miami to stay with them. But here's the thing. It takes Jacob weeks to finally tell people, I didn't, like, I wasn't actually really, I didn't come up with the idea to kill Michael. Pamela told me. And when he starts telling people this, they're like, you were manipulated. Like, you were in a full blown psychotic episode.

• 30:39Payton Moreland?

  You, you were not in a good mental place. You were manipulated. And he's like, okay, he starts to get his mind around it. He starts to say, wait, yeah, I actually think I didn't want to do this. Pamela, on the other end, is like, no way. I did not ask him to do this. I would never ask him to do something like this. Plus, there are no texts or emails or any evidence of conversations about it. So it's a bit hard to prove that Jake isn't lying. Like, people are like, no, he's in his right mind and he knew what he was doing. He, he did this, not Pamela. The only real piece of evidence at first tying her to the crime is the fact that there was that hand drawn map from her.

• 31:18Garrett Moreland?

  Also, like, I mean, there was lovey dovey messages.

• 31:20Payton Moreland?

  Right.

• 31:21Garrett Moreland?

  Which do spark a little bit of, hmm, that's your cousin and you're supposed to be giving him therapy.

• 31:26Payton Moreland?

  Right. Though, when they confront Pamela with, like, well, why'd you draw the map? She says she has reason. She's like, Calder's daycare is also inside that building. Jake was supposed to pick him up. So she's like, I just needed him to pick up my child. I had no idea he was gonna do this. But Michael, who Jake tried to kill.

• 31:44Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 31:44Payton Moreland?

  Tells police.

• 31:48Payton Moreland?

  I think Jake's actually pretty innocent in this and this was a hundred percent Pamela who

• 31:52Garrett Moreland?

  Crazy.

• 31:53Payton Moreland?

  manipulated him into doing this. So he takes Jake's side. It wasn't just custody of Calder that Pamela and Michael were actually fighting over at the time, at the time. In fact, they had just recently reached a custody agreement in court, one that ironed out visitation rights, child support payments, and a life insurance policy. Turns out, part of the deal was for Michael to take out a $1.5 million life insurance policy for himself and that his son would be the beneficiary. But three days before the attack, Michael actually changed the paperwork to say in the case of his death, Pamela would be the trustee who would then manage the payout for Calder until he's 18.

• 32:36Garrett Moreland?

  But she was gonna steal all his money. All her own son's money, basically.

• 32:40Payton Moreland?

  So when police go to Jake and they're like, did you know about this? Like this whole agreement they had made? He's like, no, I had no idea there was a life insurance policy.

• 32:47Garrett Moreland?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Peyton and I are both big advocates for therapy. We love therapy. We think everyone should do therapy if you want, get to talk to somebody. I think sometimes we have thoughts and experiences that we want to, you know, remove or delete from our brain. And sometimes that's just not how it works. I think therapy is a great place to help process those thoughts. So yeah, if you're interested in therapy, you really should give BetterHelp a try.

• 33:19Payton Moreland?

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• 33:45Garrett Moreland?

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• 34:06Payton Moreland?

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• 34:45Payton Moreland?

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• 35:27Payton Moreland?

  So hearing this, the court actually grants Michael Wise full custody of Calder. And they tell Pamela, you are not allowed to make contact with Calder for the next five years. But here's what's odd. Even though the family court thinks Pamela is a danger to society, like they start to believe this story. The police don't, at least not yet. They don't charge her with any crime. She goes on living her life, albeit not with Calder. And meanwhile, Jake is bouncing from one treatment center to another, trying to contend with his drug and alcohol addictions, as well as his mental health conditions. At one point while awaiting trial, he makes another suicide attempt.

• 36:07Payton Moreland?

  And this time, his parents don't think he'll survive. He actually is in a coma for several days. But he pulls out of it and three and a half years after the attack in March of 2016, he finally makes it to the courtroom. So while the prosecution paints Jacob Nolan as this sort of spoiled rich kid who didn't deserve the jury sympathy, the defense took another approach. They went with an insanity defense, or rather diminished capacity. This is a huge risk for Jake's defense team, and here's why. Insanity defenses are used today in less than 1% of felonies, and only 25% of those cases are usually successful for the defendant. But here's

• 36:50Payton Moreland?

  what an insanity defense means. Basically, it states that the person who committed the crime completely lacked the capacity to understand the consequences of their actions. This is hard to prove. Now, the jury does get to hear about all the ways Pamela had manipulated Jacob leading up to the murder. In fact, at one point, the defense even calls an expert to the stand who compares Pamela to a cult leader. He says, sure, it might have been a small cult, only the two of them, but the principles are the same. It's shaping someone's thought process to meet the leader's ideas. The jury also gets to hear all about Jacob's history with mental illness, his bipolar diagnosis. But the prosecution claps back, saying bipolar disorder does not

• 37:33Payton Moreland?

  keep someone from understanding the severity of their actions, nor does it make someone lose complete control over their faculties, which yes, is true. But when you add in manipulation, brainwashing, especially by someone who this person holds to high esteem, that could change. People who are deemed perfectly mentally well, fall for cult leaders. You know what I mean? Yeah. So the prosecution actually gets some backing on this. They play a tape for the jury. It's a conversation between a different psychiatrist and Jacob in the months leading up to the trial. During one clip, Jake was asked about the zip ties that were in the duffel bag, and he explained that Pamela wanted him to tie up Michael and torture him. Oh.

• 38:17Payton Moreland?

  Before he actually killed him. He goes on to say, though, that he wasn't willing to torture Michael. He was just willing to kill him for Pamela. That statement right there was enough to completely discount the insanity defense. The prosecution says, no, look, like, he knew well enough to know, well, I don't want to torture him, but I'll kill him. Here was Jake years later.

• 38:40Garrett Moreland?

  I kind of disagree with that, but okay.

• 38:41Payton Moreland?

  Admitting he was aware of the decision that he was willing to draw a line at some point. Torture, no, but murder, yes. The final nail in Jake's coffin, though, was that he told the psychiatrist in a later clip that he and Pamela were coming up with a plan, considering different ways to kill Michael, right? And Jacob was participating in that brainstorm. When asked outright in those clips if he had helped plan the attack, he said, in a way, yeah, I did. So while Jake himself never took the stand in his trial, it was still his own words that were being said. But you know who else didn't take the stand? Pamela. In fact, she was never even subpoenaed to testify. According to Jake's lawyers, that's because no one could find her to order her to court.

• 39:25Garrett Moreland?

  So she just took off somewhere?

• 39:27Payton Moreland?

  Still, the jury believed they had all they needed by the end of the two-week trial. They deliberated for less than an hour and came back with a verdict for Jacob Nolan, guilty of attempted murder. Ultimately, they felt like if Jake could back out of torturing Michael, he could have also backed out of the murder. And yet, he still went and gave it a shot. Jacob was sentenced to nine and a half years in prison. He told the press, he lived every day with regret for what he had done, and there was something else weighing on him. He told reporters, Pamela's still a threat, and he thought it would only be a matter of time before she went after Michael again. But just because Jake was behind bars doesn't mean the investigation was closed.

• 40:10Payton Moreland?

  In fact, the police seemingly took what Jake said to heart, and they kept looking into Pamela, especially when one giant piece of evidence proved Jake was not alone in this after all, despite what Pamela had been saying. Turns out Pamela went with Jacob the night before the attempted murder to Home Depot to help him buy that sledgehammer. And because she's seen on security footage, standing in line next to him and paying for it with cash, there's no pinning this all on Jacob at this point, nor more he said, she said, it's clear Pamela was definitely involved in planning this. Frankly, if she hadn't have gone to Home Depot with Jacob and been caught on security camera.

• 40:51Payton Moreland?

  They might not have had enough, so instead, an arrest warrant was finally issued for the 47 year old Pamela in October of 2017, almost five years since that attempted murder. Police track her down to a friend's home in Fayetteville, New York, about four and a half hours outside of the city. And when they knock, Pam's the one who answered. She was placed in handcuffs, brought back to New York City to face the charges for her connection to the attack. The pandemic hits, time goes on, blah, da, blah, da, blah, like we see in all these cases. In September of 2022, it's now nearly a decade since the attempted murder. She shocks a lot of people when she changes her tune. She goes into a courtroom and changes her plea to guilty. But the twists weren't over yet.

• 41:34Payton Moreland?

  Pamela went back into the courtroom a month later after, for her sentencing hearing, and she says, ah, never mind, I withdraw my plea. You know why? She said that on the day she pleaded guilty, she had first gotten maced in prison, and then she didn't take her medication. And then she got a contact high from someone on the bus ride over who was smoking drugs. So she's like, it was just a comedy of errors. The judge isn't buying it. He rejects her plea withdrawal and goes forth with sentencing, giving her 11 years behind bars. Michael Weiss was there. He witnessed the entire thing.

• 42:08Garrett Moreland?

  But he's almost out of jail now at this point.

• 42:10Payton Moreland?

  Well, during his impact.

• 42:11Garrett Moreland?

  Sorry, not Michael.

• 42:12Payton Moreland?

  Oh, yeah, Jake, Jake.

• 42:13Garrett Moreland?

  Yes.

• 42:14Payton Moreland?

  So Michael was there. He says in an impact statement, quote, "While I am grateful for this day that's arrived, it has not brought me the sense of relief or the feeling of closure I hoped it would. Although it's been almost 10 years since I was attacked, I still struggle with the emotional and physical scars of what happened to me on November 12th, 2012." Pam will not be eligible for parole until 2027. And I think it's safe to say she will not be allowed to resume her psychiatry practice once she is released. And that is the attempted murder of Michael Weiss.

• 42:50Garrett Moreland?

  It's kind of sad because the kid's also affected and he didn't do anything. Like now he's going to grow up basically without a mom because his mom wanted to kill. Dad, which is insane.

• 43:02Payton Moreland?

  It's a huge gigantic mess. And again, it, we often are talking about mental health in these cases, but this was, this was one case where a lot of people believe that if mental health had not been a component, there actually would have not been any attempted murder.

• 43:21Garrett Moreland?

  That's crazy.

• 43:22Payton Moreland?

  Guess we'll really never know for sure, though. All right, you guys, that is our case for this week and we will see you next time with another one. I love it.

• 43:30Garrett Moreland?

  And I hate it.

• 43:31Payton Moreland?

  Goodbye.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Great meeting. Who took notes? Anyone?

• 43:43Speaker 06

  With Monday Note Taker, nobody has to take notes again. It joins your call, transcribes it, and turns the whole conversation into a clear plan. Action items, owners, deadlines, all right there on your monday.com board, ready for the team. So the meeting ends and the plan already exists. Meetings aren't just talk anymore. Go to monday.com, the AI workspace platform.