285. Murder On The Yacht

On this episode, Payton and Garrett dive into the case of Forrest Hayes, a former Google executive who was living the dream, until one decision turned into his worst nightmare. Links: Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/murderwithmyhusband NEW MERCH LINK: https://mwmhshop.com Discount Codes: https://mailchi.mp/c6f48670aeac/oh-no-media-discount-codes Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/themwmh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murderwithmyhusband/ Watch on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@murderwithmyhusband Listen on Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/into-the-dark/id1662304327 Listen on spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/36SDVKB2MEWpFGVs9kRgQ7?si=f5224c9fd99542a7 Case Sources: KSBW.com - https://www.ksbw.com/article/alix-tichelman-reveals-her-story-after-google-executives-death/21756704 ABC7Chicago.com - https://abc7chicago.com/post/high-tech-mogul-murdered-by-prostitute-in-santa-cruz/172076/ LATimes.com - https://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-google-exec-heroin-overdose-memorialized-20140709-story.html NYPost.com - https://nypost.com/2018/06/27/prostitute-convicted-in-google-execs-overdose-death-charged/ USAToday.com - https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/07/09/google-exec-hayes-killed-by-call-girl/12422797/ ABC30.com - https://abc30.com/post/prostitute-who-gave-google-exec-fatal-drug-shot-is-deported/1847902/ ABC7News.com - https://abc7news.com/post/prostitute-in-google-execs-death-may-be-deported/1839477/ CNN.com - https://www.cnn.com/2014/07/10/us/alix-catherine-tichelman NBCNews.com - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/google-exec-model-silicon-valley-after-dark-n153241 The Sacramento Bee - https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article213916554.html TheGuardian.com - https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/may/19/california-woman-jailed-google-executive-overdose-death ABCNews.go.com- https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/call-girl-accused-death-google-exec-wrote-facebook/story?id=24490129 CBSNews.com - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/48-hours-forrest-hayes-case-kiss-of-death-and-the-google-exec/ HuffPost.com - https://www.huffpost.com/entry/timothy-hayes-death-heroin_b_5627673 Oxygen.com - https://www.oxygen.com/crime-time/call-girl-killer-Alix-Tichelman-faces-extradition-from-canada-to-face-new-murder-charge Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:29Speaker 01

  Great meeting. Who took notes? Anyone?

• 0:33Speaker 02

  With Monday Note Taker, the meeting ends and the plan already exists. Action items, owners, deadlines. Go to monday.com, the AI workspace platform.

• 0:44Payton Moreland?

  You're listening to an Ono Media Podcast. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder with My Husband. I'm Payton Moreland.

• 0:51Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm Garrett Moreland.

• 0:52Payton Moreland?

  And he's the husband.

• 0:53Garrett Moreland?

  And I'm the husband.

• 0:54Payton Moreland?

  I'd like everyone to know, I just accidentally did the Into the Dark intro, which is my solo show. Shameless plug. Not shameless. Both are my podcasts. I have a solo show that is basically Murder with My Husband, true crime, mixed in with a little bit of spooky stories here and there. Yeah, so it's basically this without Garrett. So if you're just needing more, you can subscribe to our Patreon, Apple Podcasts, or head over to Into the Dark for free content. All right, Gary, why don't you tell them your 10 seconds? I have a feeling I know what it's gonna be, and I'm already ashamed.

• 1:24Garrett Moreland?

  Well, Peyton stabbed me with tweezers.

• 1:26Payton Moreland?

  Bro, that was the, just, okay.

• 1:29Garrett Moreland?

  But that is what happened. Peyton literally, okay, Peyton stabbed me in the face with tweezers.

• 1:33Payton Moreland?

  Stabbed is crazy.

• 1:34Garrett Moreland?

  Um, no, you stabbed me.

• 1:36Payton Moreland?

  I scratched you.

• 1:37Garrett Moreland?

  It was a stab.

• 1:38Payton Moreland?

  Can you, wait, can you tell them I'm not being abusive and tell them the story?

• 1:42Garrett Moreland?

  I need to show, you guys can't really see it in the lighting variable on YouTube. I'll post a picture. Actually, maybe I won't post a picture because the cops might show up at the house.

• 1:54Garrett Moreland?

  In all seriousness, Payne did stab me in the face with tweezers. I was laying on her and she was tweezing her legs. And I don't really know how to explain it, but

• 2:03Payton Moreland?

  I don't remember, but

• 2:04Garrett Moreland?

  she decided to have like a full on spasm.

• 2:06Payton Moreland?

  Oh.

• 2:07Garrett Moreland?

  And her hand went straight up and straight into my cheek and she had the tweezers in her hand and

• 2:15Payton Moreland?

  Okay, this is not believable.

• 2:16Garrett Moreland?

  She also punched my eye at the same time and I thought she stabbed my eye. And I thought I lost an eye. Luckily, she stabbed my cheek instead. It's okay. It's not gonna scar, so don't worry, guys. Um, I'm not gonna lie, it hurt really bad. It hurt, but I'm okay. We talked it out and we worked out and everything's good. What is your side of the story?

• 2:39Payton Moreland?

  Okay, therapist, listen. Thank you for sharing your experience, Garrett.

• 2:42Garrett Moreland?

  You have a time limit with this.

• 2:44Payton Moreland?

  I appreciate your perspective. I was doing exactly the same thing Garrett was. He, like he said, he was over on me. And then we, he was, we were like joking, we were teasing and I don't remember what you said, but I went to like lean over on top of you. I don't remember really where I was going, but I like

• 3:01Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 3:01Payton Moreland?

  almost very energetically swung my hand over to lean on top of him and I had the tweezers in my hand.

• 3:09Garrett Moreland?

  Stabbed me.

• 3:10Payton Moreland?

  And I think he was moving at the same time because we were kind of joking and teasing and the tweezers literally

• 3:17Garrett Moreland?

  Right.

• 3:17Payton Moreland?

  ran right up his cheek like, like probably four inches, three inches. I don't know my inches. Garrett's never been very clear on that with me.

• 3:26Garrett Moreland?

  It, it hurt.

• 3:29Payton Moreland?

  It is such, is two long scratches. His face was bleeding, but then after I did it, he immediately covered his eye. And I immediately yell, where did I hit you? Where did I get you? Where did I get you? And he's not talking to me. He's just, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. And I'm sitting there like I just blinded him. Like I just took these tweezers and stabbed his eye out. Luckily, the tweezers did not hit his eye and hit his cheek.

• 3:54Garrett Moreland?

  Honestly,

• 3:55Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Garrett Moreland?

  not joking, I would have lost my eye.

• 3:57Payton Moreland?

  I think so too.

• 3:58Garrett Moreland?

  I literally would have lost my eye. But I didn't. And we're here. Everything's okay. Got some Neosporin on it. Make sure it doesn't scar. We, oh, we should taking a picture with the Band-Aid on it.

• 4:08Payton Moreland?

  And then Garrett was like, so funny. Garrett was trying to put the Neosporin on and he's like, is this anti-scar? And I'm, I'm just a little stressed, so I'm not really. And then he goes, no, this is pain. He goes, no, this one's the pain ointment queen.

• 4:23Garrett Moreland?

  A queen instead of cream, so queen.

• 4:25Payton Moreland?

  He's like queen.

• 4:26Garrett Moreland?

  It wasn't a good night. It was a, it was an awful night.

• 4:29Payton Moreland?

  We were laughing our heads off.

• 4:29Garrett Moreland?

  It was pretty funny, but it could have ended.

• 4:32Payton Moreland?

  Poor. I literally had like a thought as soon as I saw you holding your eye that I literally that you, you were gonna uncover and your eye was gonna be bleeding.

• 4:43Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, probably one of my biggest fears. It was pretty scary. That's my 10 seconds. I'm a survivor. And.

• 4:54Garrett Moreland?

  But.

• 4:54Payton Moreland?

  You're crazy.

• 4:55Garrett Moreland?

  I don't mean it like that. I don't mean it in a true crime sense. So everyone relax. I don't mean it like that. Yeah, that's all I got. It was kind of a long 10 seconds, but it wasn't just my fault. Paying talk to you. So on that note, we will hop into today's case.

• 5:09Payton Moreland?

  Our sources for this episode are ksbw.com, abc7chicago.com, latimes.com, newyorkpost.com, usatoday.com, abc30.com, abc7news.com, CNN, nbcnews.com, the sacramento bee, the guardian.com, abcnews.go.com, CBS News, huffpost.com, and oxygen.com. Okay, so for a lot of people, having the perfect life looks something like this. Happily married, maybe a couple of kids, healthy kids. You've climbed the ranks at your dream job. You're making enough money to support your family, to live comfortably. Maybe you have a lavish vacation. You have a fancy sports car, maybe a boat.

• 5:53Payton Moreland?

  You have a beautiful home where you're comfortable, happy, and content. So most of us envision this and think, what more could someone possibly want? But it's only natural for us as humans to keep striving for more. And to add some element of surprise, danger, or risk when we feel like life has fallen into a routine, no matter how perfect things may seem. But then the question becomes, are we ever really satisfied with what we have? Or are we self sabotaging creatures, always looking to achieve the next big goal, seeking the next big thrill?

• 6:34Garrett Moreland?

  That's a really good question because I feel like I do that a lot.

• 6:38Payton Moreland?

  I think it's very normal.

• 6:39Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, I think it is.

• 6:40Payton Moreland?

  I do think it's like unhealed parts of us. You don't. Do you think it's just innate, like within us to go for the next thing?

• 6:50Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know. I have to think about that one, but we can keep going.

• 6:52Payton Moreland?

  How this applies to today's case is what happens when chasing that thrill costs you and your family everything, which is probably not necessarily in this sense, but in some sense has happened to multiple people. So today we are headed to Santa Cruz, California, where in 2013, a 51 year old dad named Forrest Hayes is living with his family. Now Forrest has the kind of life that I just painted for you. He has a loving wife who he has been married to for 17 years named Denise. And the two have this beautiful home in this upper crust neighborhood, one they paid $3

• 7:35Payton Moreland?

  million for in 2013.

• 7:38Garrett Moreland?

  Oh my gosh, that's like.

• 7:41Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 7:41Garrett Moreland?

  That'd be like a seven, eight million dollar house now.

• 7:44Payton Moreland?

  And they have five beautiful children, including toddler twins at the time of this story. But I want to be clear, Forrest isn't someone with generational wealth who was handed this lifestyle. It does seem he worked hard for it. His resume is super impressive. The guy held ranks at a lot of the top companies in Silicon Valley. I'm talking Apple, Ford, Google.

• 8:11Garrett Moreland?

  Dang.

• 8:11Payton Moreland?

  He was working on some really top secret projects at this time in 2013 as well with these companies. So it turns out Forrest was hired by Google to work in their Google X moonshot factory, which is apparently where they develop some of the wildest, most futuristic technology they can think of, things like Google Glass. And Forrest was actually hired to run their self-driving car program again in 2013.

• 8:40Payton Moreland?

  Everyone who worked for Forrest said he was the man of reason around the office, the one who applied practical logistics to some of these big ideas that would one day turn them into reality. So basically, he kept everyone there grounded in their designs and their expectations. And from everything I can read, the people he worked with really respected him for his management style and the way he was as a person. They said he was calm, he was an effective leader, he had a warm heart and a knack for problem solving. And when things got hectic at work, Forrest always kept a level head. He addressed the situation with a sense of humor to keep things light around the workplace. Honestly,

• 9:22Payton Moreland?

  seems like he was cut out for the job that he ended up getting. And in fact, one colleague of his said the only time he would really see Forrest upset was when something was taking time away from him and his family, because he always wanted to prioritize them over his work. And while he was at a high-stress, high-profile job, he really seemed to be putting in the hours for his wife and kids. I mean, he does have kids toddler age at home. And if there's one quality that stood out to me when people were kind of describing Forrest, it was that he had, quote, "reasonable judgment." They pointed to examples like how Forrest bought

• 10:02Payton Moreland?

  an electric car just so he could take the carpool lanes and get to and from work faster so he could spend more time with his family.

• 10:10Garrett Moreland?

  What year is this? He had an electric car?

• 10:12Payton Moreland?

  2013. But again, he's high up at Google. They are working on self-driving cars at this point.

• 10:18Garrett Moreland?

  That's crazy, because there wasn't that many great electric cars at this point.

• 10:22Payton Moreland?

  And this is kind of why I find what happened next in this case so incredibly strange, because the overall feeling about Forrest was that he was very reasonable.

• 10:36Payton Moreland?

  So as you can imagine, Forrest was paid very well as a Google executive in one of their top secret divisions. So let's just say he had a lot of disposable income. He bought himself a few toys with that cash. He had a modified Porsche. He had a 46 foot yacht, which he appropriately named Escape. He outfitted this boat with $200,000 worth of expensive tech, including these really advanced cameras and a security system, not to mention an $8,000 captain's chair and a leather ceiling. He had the boat docked in the Santa Cruz Harbor, not far from his home. And for him, it really was an escape. It was a place that he would

• 11:18Payton Moreland?

  go to, to be out on the open waters, clear his mind, forget about the stress of work, which was exactly where Forrest was the night of November 22nd, 2013. So that Friday, after a long week at the office, Forrest went to spend some time on his yacht. He kept it docked, just enjoying the view of the other boats coming in and out of the harbor while he blew off some steam. But the following morning, November 23rd, Forrest's wife Denise starts to worry because Forrest hasn't come home yet. Now, it is possible he's done this before, maybe slept on his boat because Denise doesn't call 911 right away. And after not being able

• 12:02Payton Moreland?

  to get a hold of her husband, she calls the captain of his boat and asks, hey, can you go down to the harbor just to check on him? So the captain of their yacht does. And when the captain gets there, he starts wandering around, checking the deck. There's no sign of Forrest until he goes into the main cabin. And there he finds Forrest lying motionless. So the captain immediately dials 911. But it is too late. Forrest Hayes, the father, husband and high-powered Google executive, is already dead on his yacht.

• 12:41Garrett Moreland?

  Wow.

• 12:41Payton Moreland?

  So after the autopsy is performed, the Santa Cruz County coroner rules the death is accidental.

• 12:48Garrett Moreland?

  The second yacht death that we've had recently.

• 12:52Payton Moreland?

  So the coroner says Forrest died of an apparent heroin overdose.

• 12:59Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 13:00Payton Moreland?

  Now, this comes as a shock to everyone who knows Forrest because as far as anyone knows, Forrest doesn't have a heroin addiction. And I, I think to them, they're like, well, how is he this high functioning executive? How is he so on top of his game right now as both a father and an executive? If he is indulging in heavy drugs?

• 13:20Garrett Moreland?

  It's interesting because I do know, I mean, I don't know how big it is anymore, but all right, there was a big craze. You still hear rumors about it. Cocaine, right? A lot of executives and high profile people, whatever, um, do cocaine, right? To help them with business. But I, don't quote me on this. I would, I'm pretty sure heroin doesn't, it does not release the same effects that cocaine does when it comes to that.

• 13:49Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I didn't even think about this when researching.

• 13:52Garrett Moreland?

  It's a different type of drug. I could be totally wrong, so correct me if you want. I can look it up while Peyton's talking, but yeah.

• 14:00Payton Moreland?

  Clearly neither Garrett or I have ever used heroin or cocaine because we don't even know really.

• 14:06Garrett Moreland?

  Speak for yourself. Just kidding, yeah.

• 14:07Payton Moreland?

  I don't really know what each does.

• 14:11Garrett Moreland?

  Cocaine is a stimulant, so in the short term, it can make someone feel more alert, confident and energetic. Just why we just mentioned what you mentioned. Heroin, on the other hand, is a depressant opioid. It slows the body and brain, causing sedation, relaxation, blah, blah, blah, so on and so forth. So they do, they do two different things if you didn't know that.

• 14:32Payton Moreland?

  Okay. I actually didn't know.

• 14:34Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, now we know.

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• 15:02Payton Moreland?

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• 16:28Payton Moreland?

  Now, interestingly enough, his death stays out of the media for quite some time. It's actually not until months later that the general public catches wind of this story, this high executive who overdosed on heroin alone on his boat. And by that time, the police have learned a few things about what happened that night on the escape. See, Forrest's death might have been ruled as accidental, but the police don't think he was actually alone that night. When they first stepped onboard the escape, they noticed something about the scene that stood out. There was two wine glasses out, both appear to have been used.

• 17:12Payton Moreland?

  But his wife was at home worrying about him, correct? So who was Forrest with? And what's strange is, that's really all they find. This is really the only thing police find because they later learned that the boat captain, who Denise called to check on Forrest, actually did a little cleanup of his own before the police arrived. And when police ask him if he can give them access to those high-tech security cameras Forrest had installed onboard,

• 17:45Payton Moreland?

  He doesn't really cooperate. They have to get a subpoena to get the video footage. Now, the police don't seem to think the captain is involved in any way. They just think that he is trying to protect Forrest and his family and their reputation. Maybe keep whatever secrets Forrest was trying to keep on board the escape that night. And when investigators finally do get a hold of the footage three months later, they see exactly what the secret was. The video shows a woman with long, black hair and tattoos approaching the boat and hugging Forrest. They do have some wine. They chat and hang out, but later it shows her preparing injectable drugs for both of them.

• 18:30Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 18:30Payton Moreland?

  And while her back is to the camera in one scene, it looks like she first injects herself while Forrest watches and then she offers some to him, turns on the flashlight on her phone to help her find a vein and injects it into him. Now, one of the investigators who saw this clip said, "It did look like Forrest was maybe a little nervous and out of his element, like he wasn't completely comfortable looking in this footage."

• 18:57Garrett Moreland?

  Like it was a new thing for him?

• 18:58Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, but he was going along with it. However, things go sideways pretty quickly after this. Forrest starts clutching his chest near his heart. He starts to lose consciousness and the mystery woman does go over to help him. It looks like she is trying to revive him. She's kind of patting him on the face, talking to him as he's slumped over in a chair. She doesn't call 911 though. She doesn't yell for help. Instead, she gets up, she starts wiping off the boat.

• 19:30Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, man.

• 19:32Payton Moreland?

  Police later realize she's wiping her fingerprints

• 19:35Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 19:35Payton Moreland?

  off the boat. And then as she's doing this, Forrest falls onto the floor and then she literally steps over his body, his dying body on the floor with a glass of wine still in her hand. She lowers a blind and collects her things, steps over him a few more times over the next seven minutes.

• 20:01Garrett Moreland?

  Wow.

• 20:01Payton Moreland?

  She calmly finishes her wine and then leaves the boat.

• 20:07Payton Moreland?

  So not how you would expect someone to react to someone possibly overdosing?

• 20:12Garrett Moreland?

  Not that it matters, but she's also high.

• 20:16Payton Moreland?

  Right, and she herself is doing illegal drugs, so.

• 20:20Garrett Moreland?

  I mean, so I guess, I guess it kind of is what you would expect in a sense.

• 20:24Payton Moreland?

  So naturally, the next question is, who is this mystery woman? And what does she know about the death of Forrest Hayes? So the next step is to look into Forrest's cellphone usage. And after doing a bit of digging detectives find that Forrest had a profile on a website called SeekingArrangement.com. Apparently, the website strictly prohibits women from soliciting sex, but it's the kind of place women go to to look for like a sugar daddy?

• 20:54Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 20:55Payton Moreland?

  And through that profile, they were able to see who Forrest was communicating with prior to his death. And they land on one woman who looks a heck of a lot like the person in the security footage on the boat. It's a woman with long black hair and tattoos. And they soon learn that she is a 26-year-old aspiring model named Alex Tickleman.

• 21:20Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 21:23Payton Moreland?

  So let's learn a little bit about Alex. She was born in Canada in 1988 and later moved to Atlanta, Georgia, earning her dual citizenship in both countries. She too was from a pretty affluent family. Her father was a tech entrepreneur and a pro poker player. Apparently a really good one too, since some friends say he won around $400,000 once in a game. Which apparently allowed Alex's mom to stay at home and raise the family. Now, growing up, Alex was said to be an intelligent and creative person with a knack for writing. But after falling in with the wrong crowd, Alex began battling eating disorders, experimenting with drugs, self-harm.

• 22:05Payton Moreland?

  Some of her friends said this began around the time Alex learned that her father had been living a double life with an entire other family in Oregon.

• 22:14Garrett Moreland?

  Real quick, it's sad when this stuff happens because the family now has to have all this stuff come out publicly. Like the wife, the kids, I mean, there's a zero privacy. The wife didn't do anything.

• 22:27Payton Moreland?

  Right. So the parents are going through this and I think it's safe to say that their top concern was not getting their daughter help because they sent Alex off to this special school in Maine where she confided in her new friends that she now had a lot of issues trusting men. However, from the way some of Alex's classmates described it, this school in Maine might have been one of these troubled teen facilities because there Alex was actually forced to do a lot of manual labor and was said to be physically punished if she stepped out of line. And when this school didn't help, Alex was shipped off to a different one in Utah, where one of her former roommates said they would actually get locked up against their will.

• 23:12Payton Moreland?

  And honestly, it seems like these schools probably did more damage than good. Not feeling like she had the support she needed, Alex eventually moved to San Francisco where she began working in strip clubs as an exotic dancer. And then around 2010, she turned to sex work. But it was clear to a lot of people who knew Alex that she had demons that she was battling internally during this time in her life. By her early twenties, Alex's drug habit went from pills to heroin. She even wrote a poem about it on her Facebook profile in November of 2010, titling the piece "Heroin." It reads, "This private downward spiral, this suffocating

• 23:56Payton Moreland?

  black hole, makes you feel so warm inside, yet makes your heart so cold. Each day takes its toll and your thoughts become emotionless. Your soul feels too old. The demons whisper to me ever so lightly. He never lets go of his hold. Taking everything from me, I'll end up dying alone."

• 24:14Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, so disappointing yet so sad at the same time.

• 24:17Payton Moreland?

  But it wasn't all darkness and despair for Alex. She also wrote about some things in her life that she was looking forward to, modeling jobs, makeup tutorials, how she was working on writing a novel. Though it seems like Alex still carried a lot of trauma from her younger years and she never really trusted her parents again after this, because while they did have the resources to help her out, Alex refused to take their money. And one friend recalled her desperately trying to come up with $800 to fix her car when it broke down, which was ultimately what led her to a little site called seekingarrangements.com.

• 24:55Payton Moreland?

  Place where Alex could find her own sugar daddy and not have to worry about asking her real dad for money. And while Forrest and Alex seem to have been chatting on the site for a while, they had actually only met up once before this night on the boat. It was a lunch date, which Forrest allegedly paid her $3,000 to attend.

• 25:14Garrett Moreland?

  Holy crap.

• 25:15Payton Moreland?

  He didn't use his real name, of course. Instead, he told Alex that his name was Tim.

• 25:19Garrett Moreland?

  $3,000?

• 25:21Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. For lunch. Go up.

• 25:25Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 25:26Payton Moreland?

  We shouldn't knock it unless we've tried it.

• 25:28Garrett Moreland?

  No, we shouldn't try it or knock it.

• 25:30Payton Moreland?

  Oh, okay.

• 25:34Payton Moreland?

  And apparently for their second meeting, Tim asked Alex if she would bring some heroin so they could have a little party on his yacht.

• 25:42Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 25:43Payton Moreland?

  So at this point, police have footage of Alex injecting Forrest with heroin and leaving the scene when he's very clearly dying and in distress. Plus, they have physical proof of their connection and their correspondence leading up to that day, which, just to make it clear, this is illegal, not just the drugs, but it's illegal to leave someone on a boat overdosing and not all police.

• 26:06Garrett Moreland?

  Would assume in a sense it's manslaughter because she injected it into, like she injected heroin into his bloodstream.

• 26:14Payton Moreland?

  So, police feel pretty certain that Alex Tickleman has played some role in Forrest's death. So for the next eight months or so, the Santa Cruz police start tracking Alex on social media. And when Alex posts something about her plans to move back to Georgia, police realize they have to make their move before she actually leaves the state. So an undercover officer creates a profile on seekingarrangements.com with a fake name and a fake backstory. He connects with Alex and the two start texting and emailing each other for a bit so he can build her trust. And then finally, on July 4th, 2014, he asks Alex if she'd be willing to make a three-hour drive from her home in Sacramento to meet up at a place called the Seascape Beach Resort.

• 27:00Payton Moreland?

  The police even deposit a couple hundred bucks into her account and the undercover cop says he will give her the rest when they meet in person. Now, what's funny is Alex calls them out on this and says, hey, your rate is really low. They were only paying her.

• 27:16Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, she's made 3,000 bucks for a lunch. They're gonna have to pay her more than that.

• 27:19Payton Moreland?

  Well, they were only promising her another thousand for when she gets there. She's like, most of my clients pay double, but for one reason or another, Alex takes the bait. And when she walks into the hotel and sees the undercover cop, she goes to give him a hug. Only he doesn't really hug her back because he has a bulletproof vest underneath his shirt. And so when she hugs him, she feels it. And that's when she immediately realizes what's going on. Officers swarm her and her first thought is, why are so many police here just to arrest me for sex work?

• 27:55Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 27:55Payton Moreland?

  She's like, this feels like overkill. Well, it's that July day that she's taken down to the station in handcuffs. And it's not until she gets there and is under full interrogation. She learns for the first time that Forrest Hayes actually died that night on the boat.

• 28:13Garrett Moreland?

  Did she not think he died? Or did she think no one saw because she didn't know the cameras were there?

• 28:18Payton Moreland?

  Police aren't really buying it. Like she acts surprised and is like, what? I had no idea he died. I just left. And they're like, okay. So the following Wednesday, the 26 year old Alex Tickleman is charged with multiple drug related felonies, three misdemeanors for prostitution, destroying evidence and manslaughter. And the person who is maybe the most shocked by the news of Alex's arrest is actually her boyfriend, Chad Cornell. Now Chad is just an average guy, a construction worker who writes and plays music in his spare time.

• 28:53Garrett Moreland?

  I love those blue collar workers.

• 28:55Payton Moreland?

  He thought he was dating your average model. Sure, maybe a swimsuit campaign here and there. He believed the extent of her online work was makeup tutorials. So when she would get all dressed up and go off to meet a client, she told Chad she was just headed out to modeling shoot, which was how she made her money. So it wasn't until someone sent him a link to a news article that he learned that his girlfriend had been arrested, not just for prostitution, but in connection to the death of a high powered Google executive. But slowly, the pieces start to fall into place and he realizes, wait a second. I was with Alex right before Forrest died that night. He realizes the night this all happened,

• 29:39Payton Moreland?

  he and Alex were hanging out and she said one of her old high school friends was in Santa Cruz, that they had rented a boat, she was gonna go meet them. But later that night, Alex called Chad sounding really upset. She said some of her friends had started doing heroin and other hardcore drugs, and it made her feel so uncomfortable and so she left. Chad said on this call, Alex was crying, she was sniffling, like she, something was wrong. So now, police have an eyewitness that can almost

• 30:13Garrett Moreland?

  Confirm.

• 30:13Payton Moreland?

  Confirm that she probably did know that he died on the boat. So Alex was appointed a public defender by the state. Her bail was set to 1.5 million dollars. But Alex has a very different take on what happened that day with Forrest. And it's a fairly convincing story. So she claims that Forrest did pay her to come to the boat that day, and he was the one who asked her to bring the heroin. In fact, she said they never even had sex. Forrest only seemed interested in partying with her. She claimed she didn't know that Forrest had been drinking and had taken Valium earlier that day. And he seemed pretty sober when she got there. She said if she had known that he was on all these other substances, she never would have even offered him the drugs.

• 30:58Payton Moreland?

  She said she did try to revive him, which we do sort of see in the video with her slapping his face to try to get him to come to. And she said the reason she was spotted wandering around the boat, collecting her things and finishing her wine was because she was in shock and panic.

• 31:16Garrett Moreland?

  This is interesting because I don't know how you go about this. I mean, they were both doing something illegal? Drugs? I've always found it really interesting, like when two people are doing drugs, one person dies, like, is the other one really held responsible?

• 31:32Payton Moreland?

  Manslaughter.

• 31:33Garrett Moreland?

  Like, you're both doing something wrong and like, he's obviously was aware that he was doing heroin.

• 31:41Payton Moreland?

  Accidental death, right?

• 31:43Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, like, other than that, like,

• 31:45Payton Moreland?

  This is where it just goes case to case.

• 31:47Garrett Moreland?

  That's hard.

• 31:48Payton Moreland?

  And

• 31:48Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know.

• 31:49Payton Moreland?

  This is where I really feel for victims' families because I mean.

• 31:55Garrett Moreland?

  There's so many layers.

• 31:56Payton Moreland?

  Yes.

• 31:57Garrett Moreland?

  Like he was talking to someone online. Like there's just so many layers to the case that makes it super complicated.

• 32:05Payton Moreland?

  I mean, if someone accidentally hits someone with a car and that person dies, it's manslaughter.

• 32:11Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, but.

• 32:11Payton Moreland?

  But sometimes people don't go to prison.

• 32:13Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, but that's almost even a little different, right?

• 32:16Payton Moreland?

  It's like. There's nothing illegal happening.

• 32:18Garrett Moreland?

  Yes. It's like if you both were driving a car, which is not possible, though. You both can't be driving a car.

• 32:24Payton Moreland?

  They weren't standing in the road being like, are you gonna hit me?

• 32:26Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah, like it's.

• 32:27Payton Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 32:27Garrett Moreland?

  It's such a complicated case, it seems. I mean, we'll see. I'm sure there's more that'll come out that'll maybe clear things up a little bit.

• 32:34Payton Moreland?

  Well, Alex also says, I was under the influence of heroin at the time. Like, I wasn't thinking clearly. Like, I knew that he had money. I knew he had a high-profile job. I knew he had a wife. I knew he had kids. She was like, how am I just supposed to call and then be like, oh, yeah, like I'm, she said, she just, she didn't know what to do.

• 32:53Garrett Moreland?

  And he's also not doing things against his will. Like, he met up with her. I mean, he knew he had a wife at home.

• 33:00Payton Moreland?

  According to her, when she got in her car, she was debating whether or not to call 911. Like, once she kind of came to a little bit, she was like, do I, should I just call and leave and then let, but ultimately, as we know, she didn't. But she said it was something that she had thought about and regretted every single day since it had happened. Though ultimately, she said she never thought the dose was enough to kill Forrest. She thought he had just passed out and was gonna wake up the next day and get back to his life. What's interesting is, after her arrest, a lot of people do come forward in defense of Alex, saying, hey, she has a big heart. She's a sweet girl. She just took a wrong turn. She had zero qualities of a cold-blooded killer. She's not a murderer.

• 33:43Payton Moreland?

  But then something unexpected happens. Alex Tickleman enters the courtroom one day before her trial to say she's pleading guilty to involuntary manslaughter and administering drugs. She is sentenced to six years in a local jail with credit for time served. But there's another reveal after the guilty plea. Forrest's family actually comes forward and said, hey, we were never interested in pressing charges against Alex. Like, we were just ready to move on, close this chapter, grieve our loved one. This is, like, trial and everything is not necessarily what we wanted. Still, that guilty plea keeps Alex in jail for the next three years before she's released early on good behavior. She also gets sober during this time, which she says actually does help her turn her life around.

• 34:28Payton Moreland?

  Though, once Alex completed her jail sentence in March of 2017, she was deported back to Canada, where she was born. But for Alex, it was a fresh start, a new chapter where she was clean, she was sober, she got a job working in the hospitality industry. She has since come forward and said that she thinks about Forrest every single day, ever since his death. However, this is not the end of the story. Hey, guys, we are getting into an ad, and if you're a pet parent like me, you know about Chewy. And when they say they have everything you need to keep your pet happy and healthy, they are not messing around. To keep them happy, Chewy has over 100,000 products from all the brands our pet loves at prices that I love. Food, treats, beds, you name it, they have it.

• 35:13Payton Moreland?

  And it gets shipped directly to your door in one to two days, which is honestly just the best part. And also, it's not just for dogs and cats, birds, fish, reptiles, and more. And to keep them healthy, Chewy offers pet prescriptions, pet insurance, telehealth vet visits, and is even rolling out vet clinics across the country. The other night, Daisy had a little scare. This was a while ago, but Garrett actually got on Chewy and talked to someone who could help us determine whether we needed to bring her in or what our next steps was gonna be. And it was so helpful. So, for life with pets, there's Chewy.

• 35:54Payton Moreland?

  And right now, you can save $20 on your first order and get free shipping by going to chewpanions.chewy.com. Slash murder with my husband again, guys, money off. That's chewpanions.chewy.com slash murder with my husband to save $20 on your first order with free shipping. Chewpanions.chewy.com slash murder with my husband. Minimum purchase required. New customers only. Terms and conditions apply. See site for complete details. All right, guys, we are jumping into an ad and it is for Wayfair. For all things hosting, Wayfair delivers high-quality, customer-trusted products for your home so you can host and celebrate without the stress,

• 36:37Payton Moreland?

  which is so, so important with the holidays coming up. Wayfair helps you create a home that stands up to real life with quality products, great value and trusted reviews. Products are high-vetted by product specialists using a 10-point quality inspection. And you can shop thousands of products across every style and budget, whether you're simply replacing an appliance or transforming your home from top to bottom for the holiday season. And honestly, it's not just, you know, the little cute corduroy couch I just bought, but it's also they have verified Christmas trees, they have holiday sales going on, fireside faves, uh, space-saving party picks, like,

• 37:19Payton Moreland?

  anything that you're looking for, you're gonna find over on Wayfair. And when refreshing your home this holiday season, Wayfair delivers exactly what you need. Head to wayfair.com to shop all things homes. That's wayfair, W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com.

• 37:36Speaker 06

  Wayfair, every style, every home.

• 37:39Payton Moreland?

  In September of 2018, a grand jury in Georgia, remember this is where she moved, filed new charges against Alex Tickelman. After she is released from jail, goes back to Canada, starts over with her life, charges of felony murder and distribution of heroin and oxycodone, this time in connection to another man. Her ex-boyfriend and owner of a popular Atlanta music venue, 53-year-old Dean Rieopel.

• 38:13Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, so they filed these charges?

• 38:15Payton Moreland?

  After, in 2018.

• 38:17Garrett Moreland?

  And when was this, when did this take place?

• 38:20Payton Moreland?

  In 2011, 2012.

• 38:23Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 38:24Payton Moreland?

  So it kind of comes to the surface that this is not just like a one-time incident with her where a man dies around her.

• 38:31Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 38:32Payton Moreland?

  So here's what happened. Around 2011, 2012, Alex and Dean were introduced. They immediately began dating. Dean wanted to help Alex cleanse herself of her inner demons, sort of erase her past. But at the same time, Alex and Dean shared a very particular hobby. They were both into bondage and bondage clubs. Alex said Dean liked to take her out to clubs on a collar and a leash, and she said it was something she was really into as well. But outside of those interests, people did say their relationship seemed normal. They moved in together. Dean bought Alex a promise ring. The two talked about getting married. Alex even posted on Facebook in 2012, quote, "Life is great. I'm seriously blessed as a mother effer. A great boyfriend, nice house."

• 39:16Payton Moreland?

  Monkeys. Yes, they had pet monkeys.

• 39:19Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, no. Nah. Nope. Line's drawn. Not okay.

• 39:24Payton Moreland?

  Loving family, she said. Doesn't get better than this, I think. It truly seemed like Alex was happy, but there was one problem. Dean hated that Alex had a heroin problem she couldn't kick. Everyone who knew Dean said he was pretty straight edge when it came to drugs and alcohol. So this was the one thing about their lifestyle that did not align. But Dean was willing to do everything in his power to help Alex get on the straight and narrow. He paid for her to go to rehab. In August 2013, he bought her an engagement ring and told her, if she stayed clean for 14 months, they would get married on Halloween night in 2014. Now unfortunately, Alex only lasted a week. And then September 7th, Dean discovers something heartbreaking.

• 40:06Payton Moreland?

  Alex had created an online account and was soliciting sex work so she could pay for her drug habit. Now, according to one of Dean's good friends, that's when things start to fall apart for Dean. Part of him wanted Alex out of his life, but the other part of him loved her and didn't know how to help her make these positive changes. So in order for them to kind of stay together, Dean begins drinking.

• 40:31Payton Moreland?

  And then on September 17th, 2013, Alex called 911. She said she was in the shower, she heard a crash, and when she got out, she found Dean unconscious. She claimed she had tried to revive him for about five minutes before calling for help. Dean was rushed to the hospital. He died a week later. His autopsy report listed his death as an accidental overdose from heroin, oxycodone, and alcohol. A few weeks later, on October 30th, Alex moved to California to start fresh. She immediately went on SeekingArrangements.com to start making money again. And three weeks later, Alex was with Forrest Hayes on his boat.

• 41:10Garrett Moreland?

  Holy crap.

• 41:11Payton Moreland?

  Finding herself in an almost identical situation just two months after the last.

• 41:18Garrett Moreland?

  Okay.

• 41:19Payton Moreland?

  So, cut back to 2018. Alex, after being released from prison for Forrest's death, is now facing charges for Dean's. And as of this recording, she is yet to go to trial for Dean's case.

• 41:33Garrett Moreland?

  Whoa.

• 41:33Payton Moreland?

  Because it's currently on judicial hold because she's in Canada, which means they have to get her extradited back to the US.

• 41:41Garrett Moreland?

  And sometimes it's not, uh, what's the word? Is important enough? Like sometimes it's just that they're not going to extradite you if they don't think it's worth it. I don't know.

• 41:49Payton Moreland?

  So, in the meantime, there's now a lot of questions about Alex and her motives. I mean, is it like, yes, is it possible that this accidentally happens twice around you?

• 42:02Garrett Moreland?

  I think when you're doing that heavy of drugs, yeah, I think it's pretty.

• 42:06Payton Moreland?

  But everyone in Dean's life says, no, he had just started drinking. He wasn't doing drugs. So we, I mean, there's, there is a side of people who believe.

• 42:15Garrett Moreland?

  Which I totally get and understand. I think I would believe them if there wasn't video footage of Forrest literally allowing to be injected. Because Dean could have very well done the same thing. Not saying he didn't. After seeing, I guess, what Forrest did, I'd be surprised if she just started going around forcing people to do heroin?

• 42:39Payton Moreland?

  I.

• 42:40Garrett Moreland?

  I don't know. This is just my thoughts.

• 42:41Payton Moreland?

  These are my thoughts. I don't, I believe what happened with Forrest was an accident. Now.

• 42:47Garrett Moreland?

  But Dean, I don't know.

• 42:48Payton Moreland?

  Do. Is there a lack of responsibility here?

• 42:52Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 42:54Payton Moreland?

  Should she be held accountable for the fact that she didn't call and attempt to get help? Yes.

• 42:59Garrett Moreland?

  Hundred ten percent.

• 43:00Payton Moreland?

  Again, Dean's case hasn't gone to trial, but in Dean's case, there were reports of a domestic disturbance between him and Alex days before his death. She called the police saying Dean had thrown her to the ground. And Dean told the police she had taken pills, drank too much, and they got in a fight over her exposing her breasts at his club. Now, apparently after that, Alex also bit Dean on the finger and threatened to hit herself and make it look like Dean had done it. However, Alex was the one arrested for battery that day, not Dean. And then just a few weeks later, Dean was dead.

• 43:40Payton Moreland?

  So it's gonna make this case complicated if we ever do see it go to trial.

• 43:46Garrett Moreland?

  This is so complicated. I mean, first of all, I feel extremely bad for Forrest's family. I'm sure it sounds like they want to move on past it, so I won't address that too much. Second of all, don't do drugs.

• 43:59Payton Moreland?

  The thing is, is like Forrest's case is probably gonna be a huge.

• 44:03Garrett Moreland?

  Oh, yes. It'll be a big part of it.

• 44:05Payton Moreland?

  You can't talk about Dean's death.

• 44:07Garrett Moreland?

  Without talking about Forrest.

• 44:07Payton Moreland?

  Without talking about Forrest's death. And also, I do think it is important to hold her responsible for

• 44:12Garrett Moreland?

  a hundred percent.

• 44:13Payton Moreland?

  the mistakes that she did make. But these cases are so intertwined because they have, like, it's just one of those cases where you're like, what?

• 44:21Garrett Moreland?

  It's hard because I, I feel like I have a lot of, I don't know if I say friends, but acquaintances where I hear about this stuff where they're into heavy drugs and they do heavy drugs and they have drug issues and all these quote unquote unlucky and unfortunate things happen in their lives. And it's like, well, how many coincidences can we have before it's the cause of doing drugs or doing something that we shouldn't be doing? You know, it's

• 44:45Payton Moreland?

  Yeah, I think

• 44:45Garrett Moreland?

  It's hard.

• 44:46Payton Moreland?

  I think where I stand on that is addiction is a devil, addiction is a demon.

• 44:51Garrett Moreland?

  Yeah.

• 44:52Payton Moreland?

  And when you are stuck in the throes of addiction. Most likely, other parts of your life are gonna begin to fall apart. It's just, it's heartbreaking. It's not just heartbreaking to you. There's victims. There's other people, you know? And so I think what Garrett's trying to say is this isn't a coincidence. If you're into hard drugs, things like this can happen.

• 45:12Garrett Moreland?

  And I mean, you should be held responsible, so.

• 45:15Payton Moreland?

  So I also think it's important that in a Facebook post, Alex had said, quote, "It's really nice to talk with someone about killing sprees and murdering people in cold blood because they love it too." Now, as a true crime enthusiast, I don't know if she's coming at this from true crime or if she's coming at this from, there's something wrong here.

• 45:37Garrett Moreland?

  Okay, well, the problem is the way she said it was very unlike true crime. I don't think there's many of our listeners who.

• 45:44Payton Moreland?

  I will say, back then, we weren't as conscious around the verbiage we used in true crime.

• 45:50Garrett Moreland?

  That's some crazy verbiage.

• 45:52Payton Moreland?

  Yeah. On the other hand, in Alex's defense, there are people who've come forward and said Dean was on a bender in the days before his overdose, said he was convinced that Dean actually was experimenting with drugs to try and get closer to Alex. So in the end, we are left to wonder, is this all a terrible coincidence for Alex? Or is there something more nefarious going on here? There's one thing I can say for sure. It's that life always offers temptations. It's our job to remember all of the beautiful things we have, weigh the consequences, get help, heal, and decide, is it really worth risking at all? And that is the case of Forrest Hayes and possibly Dean Riopel.

• 46:34Garrett Moreland?

  That's an interesting one. Kind of a little different than our other cases. I don't know, I don't really have too much to say.

• 46:40Payton Moreland?

  Well, because it doesn't feel like cold blooded murder in either situation.

• 46:43Garrett Moreland?

  No, but I also do feel sorry, obviously, for Forrest's family. But yeah, it doesn't seem like, nothing seems like cold blooded murder. I don't think it was. I guess we'll see if like Dean's case ever comes to fruition. I don't think it will because I don't think she will be extradited. I don't think it's a top priority, I would assume, but we'll find out.

• 47:01Payton Moreland?

  This is why they say, "Not even once."

• 47:04Garrett Moreland?

  Not even once.

• 47:05Payton Moreland?

  Not even once. All right, you guys, that is our episode and we will see you next time with another one. I love it.

• 47:10Garrett Moreland?

  And I hate it.

• 47:11Payton Moreland?

  Goodbye.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Great meeting. Who took notes? Anyone?

• 47:23Speaker 02

  With Monday NoteTaker, the meeting ends and the plan already exists. Action items, owners, deadlines. Go to monday.com, the AI workspace platform.