Episode Revisit- Jack the Ripper (Parts 1-5)

Weirdos! We're revisiting Whitechapel in this MASSIVE episode which includes all 5 episodes of Alaina's Roman Empire, Jack the Ripper!

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:38Speaker 01

  Hey, weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  It is morbid and it's gonna get really morbid in here today. See, I like to do the, hey, weirdos, especially now, because we were saying it, I think, last episode. Whenever, like, you finish saying, "And this is morbid," and then I have to comment, I'm like, "It is." Every time. It is. We're both like, "Yeah." It is. That's all I gotta say. But today, it really is, because Yeah. we are starting what is going to be a four-part series on Jack the Ripper. All right, wait. Four-part series? So, you know, you know me. You know Elena's relationship with brevity.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  You know me. I, this case, like, just sucked me right in. I have about five or six books to share with you guys already, and I'm not even done. It's, I'm gonna try to keep it to four, just so that you don't get, like, an entire month of Jack the Ripper, which I don't know if anybody would be down for. Like, I could do, like, an entire, like, season about this if I really wanted to. I feel like some people would definitely be down, but I think my psyche and others like my, who share the psyche that I have, would be like, "Please stop trying to break me physically and mentally." And I feel like, you know, Albert Fish was for, everybody reached their breaking point at that point, I think, and it was a nice reprieve when it was done.

• 3:33Speaker 01

  Four for these ones is the sweet spot. Yeah. So with that being said, are you just gonna, like, yeet yourself right into it? Yeah, we're gonna yeet right into it. The first one. Have you ever even said yeet before? Hold on a second. Have I? I feel like I have. I feel as though I've never felt this much happiness in my life, though. Wow. I don't think you've said yeet before. I don't know. Let us know. Have I said yeet before? I feel alive, so let's go. Whatever I can do to make you happy, you know? Yeah, now, now we get into this. Well, I know, I was gonna say, sorry about what's coming next. I just want to mention a few of the books that I have used for this series so far. I'm sure to be adding more by the fourth one, but I, by the fourth episode, but I will let you know when there's other ones. You're a psychopath.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  These are really good books. You can get them on the Kindle. They're, you know. Are you old? Yeah, you know. The Kindle. The Kindle. The Kindle app. Get them up, the Kindle Cloud Reader. Whatever, man. You can get them on the, you can get them on your old screen. Get them, get them on the internet, and then get off my lawn. Get them on the world wide web. So, the first one is Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect by Robert House. Okay. The second one is The Hidden Lives of Jack the Ripper's Victims by Robert Hume. Okay. That's a good one, because it really focuses on the victims. The third one, which I think, right now, is my favorite comprehensive look at the case, is The Complete Jack the Ripper,

• 5:00Speaker 01

  and that's by Donald Rumbolo. And then we have The Five, which is a really good book and a really interesting one, because it's another one that really focuses on the victims. Nice. Their stories, you can get a lot of background. It's by Hayley Rubenholt. She does an amazing job. And the next one I'm gonna talk about, and the last one for now, is called The Ripper Code by Thomas Toughhill, I believe it is. Toughhill. They're all really great. They all give, you know, different point of views. They all give really comprehensive looks at all the evidence, and they're fascinating, and I think you should read them, but I will link them all. Cool. And again, I'm gonna be adding to that list, so stay tuned for that. So what we're gonna do

• 5:45Speaker 01

  with this episode is I want to talk to you about Whitechapel, the East End at the time, which is in the late 1880s. We're gonna talk about workhouses, because a lot of these women were spending a lot of their time in workhouses, and it gets mentioned a lot, and you should know what those are. We're gonna talk about the first victim. We're gonna be talking about Mary Ann Nichols, or Polly Nichols, as she was known. We're gonna talk about some of the victims that they thought, or still thought to this day, although I don't really think so. They thought may have been pre-Ripper victims, like, pre, what they call the canonical five, which are the ones that most people know their names. But they think that they're, a lot of people try to, like, connect a lot of other cases to this, which I'm sure.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  I'm sure there was more than five. I'm sure there could be some. I wouldn't say I'm positive there's more than five. Yeah, but I could see that being a possibility. It's entirely possible that there's more outside of the canonical five, but I don't think the two that I'm gonna, or maybe three that I'm gonna present to you are in any way connected. I just want you to know that they happened, that they were talked about to be connected to this case, and they kind of influenced how they looked at a lot of it. Okay. So, in this one, we'll be covering that one for sure, canonical victim, that first one, going through the background, all that. So, here we go. Okay. Let's talk about Whitechapel, the East End at the time. So, the East End of London was not great at the time. I was gonna say, I'm already cold and I need a rain jacket.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Not great. And some mace. I was gonna say, honestly, the weather is the very least of your problems. The very least. The West End at the time was where the wealthy elite were hanging, and it seemed that the East End was just kind of left to suffer, basically. It's always like the Upper West Side. Yeah, or like the Upper East Side, you hear, but it doesn't really work here. Which one was Gossip Girl? As soon as I said that, I just. Probably the Upper East Side, I would think. I think it was. I don't know, though. Not here. So, in, in these times, the East End, there was rampant crime, violence, homelessness. There was, alcoholism was a widespread issue, drug use, disease. It was, I mean, there were kids running around with no shoes on, no clothes on, barely

• 8:01Speaker 01

  fed. Geez. Till the middle of the night, when, you know, parents would be stumbling home from pubs and whatever else they were doing. It was just wild. It was dank, and it was bleak. It was. Actually, an English author, Arthur Morrison, wrote that the East End was, quote, "an evil plexus of slums that hide human creeping things." That's a writer. Which, whoa. That's a writer right there. What a, like, beautifully crafted sentence. It's, that's just like, what, what, what a, like, what a statement to put on one place. It's just like, yep, this is what that is. That's the blanket statement of Whitechapel. It's unfortunate, because Whitechapel was right at the center of the East End, and it

• 8:44Speaker 01

  was where crime was just normal and just constant. It was also dark, and I don't mean dark. It was very dark, like, emotionally, you know, just like, it was dark, but physically, it was dark. It was only lit by sparse street lamps, so think about how dark those alleyways and streets were. Like, we don't recognize, a lot of us, like, we don't recognize how dark it can get outside. Yeah. Until you're outside of, like, you know, suburban areas and heavily populated areas. If you go out to, you know, like, going out to the Berkshires or something. Or like, upstate New York. And you're out in, like, a cabin in the woods, that's when you see dark. That's when you know what dark is. And these people were living in it constantly.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I remember going to Maine for the first time when I was little and being like, "Oh, this is the dark that people are scared of. I get it now." Like, I don't know dark. Yeah. There were tenement homes where many, many, many families would cram together in one room to live and sleep. There were workhouses, like I mentioned. We're gonna talk about those later. I'm gonna explain all about those. And there were also dos houses, where poor and homeless could pay a few pence for a bed for a night. In a survey done by Charles Booth that covered the years between 1886 to 1903, which is, the Ripper murders happened in 1988. They started in. So this covers that time period. Eighteen eighty.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Eighteen eighty, excuse me. I will say nineteen eighty-eight probably a million times. I do that anytime I have a case from the eighteen hundreds. I don't know why. My brain just won't say it. But he found that twenty-two percent of people in Whitechapel were living below the poverty line and another thirteen percent were living and struggling to survive, quote, "where a decent life was not imaginable." There were families, like I said, living in one room with people suffering from every disease you can imagine, like smallpox, tuberculosis, of all manner of things. Kids, like I said, were running around barefoot, sometimes nude because clothing was a luxury many couldn't afford.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  They lived in, and this is awful, they lived in literally like beds that were covered in black beetles and cockroaches and rats would run all over everything because they were never cleaned because these like all these lodging houses, they were like, yep, there's a bed. And it was just, you just had to deal with it. Filthy. And it was just to have some kind of roof over your head for, for a handful of hours before they would kick you out. And just thinking about like little kids and these living conditions, thinking about anybody in this living condition is awful. But then you think about like kids that can't even wear clothing. Yeah. And they're just getting like bitten by bugs and, oh. And the thing is that these lodging houses, you would have to leave during the day.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  So if you were ill, or you were old, or you were hurt, they would turn you out in the freezing cold until the night when you could pay again to come sleep in these horrific conditions. Wow, I didn't realize. You did not get to stay there during the day, get the hell out in the morning, earn your lodging money, and come back in and pay me for another night. And you couldn't even keep your stuff there either, I'm assuming. So it's like everything you have is just Yeah. in one place. Because as we can see, even when like some, some of these women knew these managers of these Doss houses and workhouses like really well after a while because they were there for so long. Right. And they wouldn't even hold a bed for them or anything, even knowing them for so long, they'd be like, no, I'm going to earn my money. If someone comes and pays for that bed, that's theirs. Wow.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Robbing, stabbing, mugging, drunken brawls, they were literally a minute by minute occurrence here. It was mayhem. There were streets here where police wouldn't go down, or they would only walk in groups. Police. Wow. Yeah. Thomas Arnold, the police superintendent of H Division in the eighteen eighties, said, quote, "There can be no doubt whatever, that whatever that vice in its worst form exists in Whitechapel." Yeah, I would say so. Mostly for men at the time, you know, slaughterhouses were a massive market here. Butcher, butchers, and they were just men walking around covered in blood all the time. So, because animals are being slaughtered like right out in the open. Just like over there. Like very brutal. So they're just walking around, remember, covered in blood a lot. Right.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  With aprons on. That's why some of this was a little tough because we look at it and we're like, how's this guy committing, as we're going to talk about, like we'll get at least a good taste of it here, these atrocities? Right. That he would be covered in blood and no one's noticing him? Because everyone was covered in blood. A lot of people didn't bat an eye at it. I mean, people were beating the shit out of each other in drunken brawls and walking down the street with blood coming out of their face and like no one's really thinking about it. There's slaughterhouses, butchers, all that stuff, walking around covered in animal blood. Well, and I'm sure this was like the kind of place too where because everything is so violent and scary, you mind your damn business. That's what it is. And you don't pay too much attention to anybody. You've got your eyes straight ahead.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. So a lot of people were like, yeah, I wouldn't have noticed. Right. I don't think I would have noticed this person walking away covered in blood, or if I did, it wouldn't have stuck in my brain because I see it all the time. And because these people are just so focused on survival. Yeah, exactly. And for women, sex work was also very rampant in the East End because it was really all they had at that point. Like, they didn't get a lot of other opportunities. They were called unfortunates. And it was either a full-time gig where that was where their money was being made. That was the only way they were making their money. Or it was something that women would find themselves having to do on the side while also doing things like being a dressmaker, a tailor, a laundress of other people's laundry if they were, but they were only able to do that if they had a place to launder other people's laundry.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  If they didn't have a roof over their head, they don't have a lot of options. And even a tailor, a dressmaker, they had to buy the stuff to do that. Right. And some of them couldn't do it. So you can't just start that business. Yeah. You have to have like a little money set aside first. Exactly. And then like they would also, a lot of them would sell like paper and fabric flowers that they would make. Like, a lot of them were really adept at sewing and crocheting and all that. Because you had to be. And women at that time wore big fancy hats that had a lot of artificial flowers and stuff like the fancy women. And so these women would buy these artificial flowers. So they would travel into these like wealthier areas to try to sell them. Right. But then again, it's probably a means of traveling even. Exactly. There's so much against them.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  It was intense. And once, so when it came to sex work back here, once a client was secured, the act would take place literally anywhere, in alleys, in doorways, against walls. Right. Usually, like I said, people didn't have anywhere to bring a client back. Because they can't go back into those houses. Yeah. And it's like, sometimes they can bring them back into these Doss houses, but most of the time not. It's got to be the right time. And most of the time it's just like, all right, do it and get the money and leave. That's it. Because you're doing it to get your lodging. And then you think about like the filth that that adds to society. I mean, sanitation, sanitation was real bad back then. So it's like, all this is happening in very unsanitary conditions.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  You would not want to go with a black light into Whitechapel during this time. Definitely not. Now, according to Jack the Ripper in The Case for Scotland Yard's Prime Suspect, by Robert House, in eighteen sixty-eight, there was a survey that showed there were a hundred and twenty-eight brothels in Whitechapel at the time and six hundred and twenty-three active sex workers. Wow. Stepney, another part of the East End, had nine hundred and thirty-two active sex, sex workers and three hundred and fifty brothels. Wow. So as you can see, it was a big business. Now, any person would look at this and say that obviously the severely horrific living conditions and rampant poverty were likely the reason sex work was so rampant at the time because there was really no, there was no other choice. Yeah.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  It was desperation. It was how you were going to get your next meal. It was how you're going to feed your kids. Right. They were doing it for usually just basic human needs that everybody deserves. But at the time, the social reformers were like, no, women are just, these like women sex workers are just morally bankrupt sex fiends. Oh, yeah, definitely. And that they're doing it just because they like to. It's like, can you just give them an opportunity, maybe? Yeah, I don't know. Give them any opportunity to have any other job if they want to, like. So even at the time of the Ripper murders, police commissioner at the time, James Monroe, said this about the victims, quote, "The only wonder is that the Ripper's operations have been so restricted. There is no lack of victims ready yet to his hand for scores of these unfortunate women

• 17:25Speaker 01

  may be seen any night muddled with drink in the streets and alleys, perfectly reckless as to their safety, and only anxious to meet with anyone who will help them in plying their miserable trade." Wow. Yeah, it's definitely, it has nothing to do with the fact that there's no opportunities outside of this. Honestly, it's just on them. He's like, that's a you problem. Not a me problem. You're like, cool, cool, cool. Like, all right, so I think it's time to get into, now that we've like set the background at least for what is going on here, let's talk about Mary Ann Nichols, better known to her friends as Polly. So sometime around three forty AM on August thirty-first, eighteen eighty-eight,

• 18:06Speaker 01

  Charles Cross was on his way to work as a carman, which is somebody who drives a horse drawn carriage for like fancy people. Cool. A chauffeur. Exactly. A jive. A jive. Get it? That's what I used to say. I know, a jive. A jive. Ash used to think it was chives. Yeah. Yeah. So he worked in Buck's Row, which in Whitechapel. And as he passed some gates and fencing along the road, right in the middle of the road, he noticed what he initially said he thought was a tarpaulin, which is a big waterproof tarp essentially. But when he got closer, he saw that it was a woman lying on her back. Oh. She was laying very close to a locked gate. And what we'll see is that because how Whitechapel was,

• 18:51Speaker 01

  almost all of this, so many of these women, people saw them at first and were like, oh, it's a drunk woman just passed out on the ground. Like, no one thought twice about it. It's the fact that that was like, oh, whatever, there's that. That was the first thing that popped into their head. Like, if you, if you or I saw that, like, you would never think, oh, that's just a drunk woman on the ground. Just must be a drunk woman. It's like, no. Wild. And she was laying very close to the locked gate. He took a closer look and saw that she was still and her skirt had been hiked up closer to her hips. Another man named Robert Paul, who was also on his way to home from work, or to work, it varies, he noticed this as well and he came to help. So they felt her. She was cold in her face and hands. It was still dark out, so they couldn't see details.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  Paul immediately said, he was like, by the way, she was positioned and her skirt was hiked up. I was worried she had been raped. So he said, he pulled her skirt down to cover her. Oh. Because he was like, I just didn't want to leave her out in the open like that. And they ran to grab a police officer. Now, at three forty-five AM, PC John Neal, which is police constable, he was walking his beat through Buck's Row in Whitechapel when he came across this woman in the street as well. At this time, Paul and Cross had found PC George Mizin and had told him what they had seen. He went straight to the scene as well and he met PC Neal there. So PC Neal sent another police officer who showed up at the scene for Dr. Reese Wellf Lewin, I think it's Lewin, to come.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Okay. There was usually just like one doctor that they would go and have come for this. He arrived very close to four AM on the scene. At this time, workers from the surrounding butcher shops and other shops were coming on scene as well because everything's opening up, people are going to work, all of a sudden they're seeing this crowd. It was clear to the doctor, Dr. Llewellyn, that this woman's throat had been cut deeply from ear to ear.

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  In fact, there were two distinct slashes to her throat, one that was eight inches long and cut so deep that it cut the vertebrae.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  All the tissues and vessels had been savaged in her throat. Later, he made very sure to state that he was completely sure that her injuries were in no way self-inflicted. Her eyes were wide open staring at the sky, but not seeing anything. When the doctor felt her, her upper half was beginning to get cold, but her legs were warm. So they estimated she had been dead less than a half hour before they got there.

• 21:19Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Now, later in a report, P.C. Neal said, quote, "I examined the body by the aid of my lamp and noticed blood oozing from a wound in the throat. She was lying on her back with her clothes disarranged." This woman was about five foot two with hair that was brown but turning gray. She was missing five of her front teeth. She was wearing a brown, red ulster coat, black ribbed wool stockings, two petticoats, and a black velvet bonnet that looked new. On the bands of her petticoats were the markings of the Lambeth Workhouse. So obviously, she had been staying at a workhouse.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  With the Lambeth Workhouse markings on her petticoats, they decided to look there first to try to identify this woman. It was someone from the Lambeth Workhouse, a friend Polly had made while living there named Mary Ann Monk, who came down to the morgue and identified the body as that of Mary Ann or Polly Nichols. So Polly was born August 26, 1845. At the time of her death, she would have been around 42 years old. Her father, Edward Walker, was a blacksmith, and her mother's name was Carolyn or Caroline, and she was a laundress. Her mother died when she was young, and so did her younger brother Frederick, who died when he was only two years old.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  This was very common back then.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  Kids did not last past two around this area.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  I mean, think about the conditions we're talking about here.

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, just disease alone. She was one of three children with two brothers, Edward, who was older, and Frederick, who was younger. At 19, she married her husband, William Nichols. He was a Fleet Street printer for Messer Perkins Bacon and Company in 1864. He worked there where they printed books, posted stamps, anything that needed to be printed, they printed. At one point, the couple lived with her father for, I think it was like 12 years, they lived with him. And during this time, they had the first of what would later be five children together, ranging in ages from eight to 21 at the time of her death. Luckily, after a lot of hustling in the printing business, they were able to afford their

• 23:21Speaker 01

  own home in 1876, where they were accepted to live in the Peabody Buildings, which were a new set of tenement housing units. And they were like, pretty like upscale. They looked really nice. They only accepted working-class people of high moral character.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  Now, they lived together in like, okay harmony.

• 23:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  You know, whatever, for a while with their children. At one point, a widow moved in next door to them with her adult daughter, Rosetta, who had separated from her husband recently.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:51Speaker 01

  Rosetta helped with the kids while Polly was pregnant, and there were...

• 23:55Speaker 02

  I bet she did.

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, there were rumblings that William took a liking to Rosetta, and Polly noticed. After their child Eliza was born in 1876, Polly began drinking gin, and the couple started fighting a lot.

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, gin will do that.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Gin became her poison of choice. Now, there were several times when Polly would leave, but she went to live with her father for a while, and then she returned back to William in 1877. Again, the fighting continued until she walked out again while very pregnant and ended up at Lambeth Workhouse for the first time.

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  She spent some time there, working towards the end of her pregnancy, but once she was reaching that end of her pregnancy, she was worried she would be separated from her baby.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:39Speaker 01

  If she stayed there. So she went back to William's, or, excuse me, William. And again, we're going to get into workhouses for sure, because her fears were not unfounded that she might be separated from her baby.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  In 1879, she gave birth to a son, Henry, but things turned sour again with William when they started fighting over his possible infidelity at this point. Things got really bad between them, and she just packed and left, left all her children, including baby Henry with William.

• 25:09Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  So she just up and left.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Which is like, you know, you want to be mad at that, but at the same time, it's like, where was she going to take all these kids?

• 25:17Speaker 01

  It's a very, it's a hard one to judge, and that's why I'm not going to judge it.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Because it's my initial, of course, my initial thing is like, how could you ever leave your kids? Because I don't get it.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  But I also didn't live in that time.

• 25:30Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  So I'm not going to say that I understood it. I'm not going to say I get what was going through her head. I just, you know, that's it.

• 25:38Speaker 02

  Like dire streets.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  It is. This is, everything that happens in the story of Jack the Ripper boils down to desperation and hopelessness, really, which is really sad. But you know what? In her desperation, like we said, she went to stay at Lambeth Workhouse again. This is a good time to get into exactly what a workhouse was and how they came to be. So it's important, because many of the Ripper victims, like I said, were bouncing between these establishments, Doss houses, lodging houses, or they had at least spent time in one of these workhouses. Now, in 1834 in England, a law referred to as the Poor Law was introduced. This law was introduced as a way to help and bring poverty-stricken people back into

• 26:21Speaker 01

  work and hopefully housing with the creation of workhouses. It was supposed to be sort of a leg up. That's what they were advertising it as. But it was proposed as the only way to get aid if you found yourself poverty-stricken. Otherwise, you get nothing.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Yikes.

• 26:38Speaker 01

  So it was built on desperation. Already, the power dynamic is fucked here.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  With this law, workhouses would be established where poverty-stricken people could be housed, clothed, and fed, but in return, they would work extremely hard doing manual labor, things like breaking stones and shit.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Why the fuck did they need people to break stones?

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Breaking them up into like gravel, literally.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 27:03Speaker 01

  Children could also be put to work.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  One common thing that they would make workhouse inmates do as work was bone crushing.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  What?

• 27:12Speaker 01

  They would have to manually crush the bones of dead horses, cats, dogs, all to use as fertilizer.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  What?

• 27:19Speaker 01

  There were a ton of rumors that there were grave robbing happening as well, and that these people were unwillingly crushing human remains as well.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  What the fuck?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  These workhouses were feared and avoided by many. They were some...

• 27:32Speaker 02

  You don't say.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  They were sometimes referred to as prisons for the poor, and mistreatment was rampant.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  That's what it sounds like. It literally sounds worse than prison.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, people, families would be pulled apart and forced to live in different parts of the workhouse. They had to wear uniforms and basically eat prison slop. Also, immediately upon entering a workhouse formally, the person would lose all voting rights.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  What?

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. These workhouses were mandatorily set up in different parishes around, and these parishes were formed and broken up into unions for this. The unions would meet, and all of, and what they called unions, they would meet, and all of the parishes in that union would help decide what kind of facility they intended to use and intended to build, excuse me. For example, how many inmates would be housed in a particular workhouse? Each union was assigned a guardian of that particular workhouse parish, and these guardians were supposed to visit the workhouses and make sure everything was up to code and that the conditions were not terrible.

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  So what I found was a particular crazy scandal involving workhouses around this time. It was the Andover Workhouse scandal. And it changed the way that workhouses run.

• 28:46Speaker 02

  For good or...

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  It was run by what was referred to as a master of the house. This one was run by Colin McDougall, who was a sadist.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  Because that's the thing, I was just going to say, as soon as you give somebody the title of master of the house...

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  Look out.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Never give somebody the title of master.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Too much.

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:05Speaker 01

  Too much.

• 29:06Speaker 02

  Just not going to work out.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  He intentionally treated the poor like shit, and he actually took the food intended for his workhouse and just gave it to his own house.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  What?

• 29:14Speaker 01

  Like, he would just feed his own family with that food. He was violent. He liked watching poor people suffer. He also refused to allow guardians to come into the workhouse for a time, citing some loophole in the law that he was able to get away with it.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  Really?

• 29:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Later, sexual assault accusations were lodged against him.

• 29:32Speaker 02

  Knew that was coming.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  And soon, it was clear that people living in this particular workhouse were so starving that they were skin and bones. He was literally starving them all. Then rumors began to swirl that people would fight for the job of bone crushing in this particular workhouse, just so they could eat the marrow from the bones and pick the rotting flesh off of them to eat.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  So this is a prison camp.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  They were that hungry.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  This is literally a prison camp.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  This was confirmed.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  A man named Hugh Monday, who was, he was a magistrate and member of the overseers on the Andover Board, he actually testified that this was true when he investigated it. He testified under oath, oath, and I quote, "When a beef bone or chine bone was turned out of the heap, there was a scramble for it, described like a parcel of dogs, and the man who got it was obliged to run away and hide it until he had an opportunity of eating the marrow. One man fetched two bones, which he had eaten that very morning, in wet ashes. A portion of muscle, very offensive, was adhering to the ends of the bone. The med said that it was a considerable time before they could make up their minds to

• 30:39Speaker 01

  do so, but after they had once taken to it, they preferred that description of labor to any other, because they could get bones to pick."

• 30:46Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  This got everything moving, because they were like, oh, this is not okay.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Like, the thought of people doing this, like, and being described as like a pack of animals.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Fighting for bones to crush so that they can hide some to eat the marrow and the rotting flesh off of...

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Like, fighting for sustenance.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:17Speaker 00

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• 34:02Speaker 01

  Now, but the problem was here that some of the players in this whole thing had a conflicting interest in keeping the Andover workhouse as it was.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Eventually, the inquiry into this mistreatment and torture of inmates was just dropped. Just dropped. But luckily, this did make people look closely at what the fuck was happening here. The poor law commission was basically running itself and had no parliamentary oversight at all. This was unacceptable and it wasn't working, clearly. A bunch of newspapers reported about it and this brought at least the removal of Colin McDougall in Andover, the master of the house there. But another asshole just took his place.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Now, during the investigation, Home Secretary Sir James Graham was found to have basically told the commissioners to get the whole Andover scandal quieted and concluded quickly. He was like, just make it go away. All of this led to a committee being formed to take action and investigate the Andover workhouse situation for real this time, instead of just dropping the inquiry.

• 35:05Speaker 02

  Like, why would you just drop that?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Cause they just didn't, they didn't want to deal with it.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  How do you drop that?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause they don't care. These people didn't care.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  I just don't understand. Again, I think we said this last time, but the lack of empathy.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were horrified at the findings. This horror and mistreatment unfortunately ended up being an almost across the board situation when they started looking into other workhouses as well. They completely dismantled the poor law commission at this time and changed it into a board that would have to have parliament oversight. It slowly got better. And eventually around 1930, the entire law and system was abolished. And that was in 1930.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  Good.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  So remember this while we speak about what these women were living through. It just kind of paints a bigger picture of where they were in life.

• 35:53Speaker 02

  And the fact that it took from like, this is the 1880s we're talking about, and it took until 1930 to have this abolished. Like, that's fucking wild.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they were, I mean, there was something called like picking oakum and it meant like picking the, you would have to like untangle old like ropes from ships and you're, it would make your fingers bleed.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  And that was, it was, the kind of manual labor they had to do was so tedious and so harsh and so intense, just for a meal.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  And it would just drive you insane after like a month or so.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  And just for a meal and a bed for the night. And then you'd be separated from your family because men and women were also separated from each other. They had to eat in separate places, work in separate places, sleep in separate places.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Why? As long as they're getting their work done and like, like, I mean, this is like ridiculous.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Oh, you know why? I can tell you why.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Cause they didn't want them to have more babies.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't want them to breed more poor people.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  That's what their reasoning was, that they would openly say.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  So fucked.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wild. So, so this is why we're gonna, now we're gonna go back to the separation from Polly's husband.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And her going and moving back into Lambeth Workhouse around 1880.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  And do you know how bad Lambeth was?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Lambeth, I think was like just on par with shittiness with workhouses, especially in 1880, like shit was still really dry there.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Kind of sounds like a workhouse is a workhouse.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  It really is. It's not great. You're not gonna have a good time there.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  No.

• 37:19Speaker 01

  You're not gonna get rest there. It's just not good. So after the separation from her husband, he allowed Nichols five pence per, or five shillings per week, excuse me, which was actually required by law of him. Once you separated from your spouse, like the husband would have to pay a weekly allowance.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  It's like a, what's that called?

• 37:40Speaker 01

  I know what you're talking about, but I might be a little think of it. It just is. You just, you pay him money.

• 37:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  So, there you go. That's what it is. Now, at the time of her death, he said he had not seen her in about three years.

• 37:51Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Now, in 1882, he found out through some channels that she had been living life as a sex worker since their separation. And so he said, I'm not paying anymore. So he stopped paying the weekly allowance. Her friends told her that she needed to get a summons to force him to pay again. And so she contacted the guardians of the parish of Lambeth, who you would go to if you were living in that workhouse. And they were able to then summons William to come testify as to why he stopped paying her weekly allowance. But after a bunch of witnesses were asked to testify about her quote unquote, "street life" and now quote unquote, "a moral character," the guardians agreed with William's reasoning for stopping his required payment and that was it.

• 38:35Speaker 02

  That sucks.

• 38:36Speaker 01

  Kind of shows you how the guardians looked at the poor. They kind of wanted to keep them desperate so that they were forced to work in that workhouse.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, they needed their work to get done.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Now, interestingly, later in 1896, this is just like a little side thing. This was after the Ripper murders. A seven-year-old boy named Charlie Chaplin would show up at the door of Lambeth Workhouse with his mother and brother after their father abandoned them.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  You're telling me that is this Charlie Chaplin?

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:03Speaker 02

  What?

• 39:03Speaker 01

  They found themselves on very hard times after his dad had abandoned the family. Yes, that Charlie Chaplin lived at Lambeth Workhouse for a spell.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Isn't that wild?

• 39:14Speaker 02

  That is.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  But back to Mary Polly Nichols. After losing her allowance from William, she tried to retain lodging in many different places around the area, but nothing stuck. She could get it for a night here and there. She stayed with her father for another stay, but her drinking caused him to, them to have some issues. He said later, he never threw her out, but there were times where it just got too bad and she would leave.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  So by this time, William had actually moved on with Rosetta.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I knew that all along.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  She was pregnant with his child.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Fuck William.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  She bounced again around to different workhouses and lodging houses. And in 1886, her brother Edward actually died from a fire. He died in a fire. His funeral was the last time her father saw Polly alive in 1886.

• 40:03Speaker 02

  Also, just to back up for a second, fuck William for cheating on his wife and then saying, I'm not gonna continue to pay her even though I'm the reason why she left.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like a real bad situation.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Like, that's just, that's a dick move on a dick move.

• 40:17Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's sadness on every level because it's like.

• 40:20Speaker 02

  And just betrayal.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  She was drinking because she was depressed because he was being unfaithful. And she was feeling like this Rosetta was this younger, pretty thing and she was having all these babies and probably like that can fuck with your hormones, everybody.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  And it can make you feel.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  They didn't know what postpartum was back then, of course.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  And it can, when he's looking at this younger woman, you're sitting here thinking like, what the hell is going on here? She starts drinking. It's bad decision-making on every level in everybody's corner. I mean, you don't, turning to drinking in that scenario is not the right choice.

• 40:55Speaker 02

  Of course not.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  It happened and there were circumstances that led to it. And it's just, did you, it's just bad choices in every single arena of this whole story.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Well, and it just sounds like he was gaslighting the shit out of her.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just, it's bad. It's just bad scenarios.

• 41:14Speaker 02

  It's mean.

• 41:15Speaker 01

  It's just really bad. So in 1887, she had been kicked out of a living situation she had for a little bit of a time with a man named Thomas Drew. They had lived together for a little bit, but she started drinking again. He got tired of it and kicked her out. It was October, but she had to sleep outside in Trafalgar Square, which is where a lot of them had to like, yeah, huddle together to sleep. After a bit of time there, on October 29th, 1887, a bunch of people were arrested in the square. I found an article in the People's Newspaper from the time listed it and listed them under the headline, "Trafalgar Square Vagrants."

• 41:55Speaker 01

  And said Nichols and five men and two other women were arrested there and charged with, quote, "sleeping in the open air and wandering without visible means." Yeah, because they don't have anywhere to go because your city sucks. They got through the others. So they got through to the others and they say that most of them agreed to go to workhouses or they had somewhere work like to be. So they were let go after they arrested them. But Nichols is stated in the article to be, quote, "the worst woman in the square" and labeled, quote, "very disorderly." Oh, man. She was, however, released on her own recognizance. She went before the magistrate and was let off with a warning, but was forced to go back to Lambeth workhouse. Oh.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  So she went back to her old stomping ground at Lambeth, but only lasted 10 days before being kicked out of there. Oh, my goodness. As we'll see, a lot of these women are very feisty, very fiery women. They had to be. Well, that's what I was gonna say. It sounds that they didn't have a choice. There's a lot of getting kicked out of places. There's a lot of brawling. There's a lot of real tough lifestyle because they had to. Because it's fighting to stay alive. Yeah. Now, here's another interesting tidbit. We're gonna be full of those during this. I mean, I gotta. It's an interesting time. So at this time, rooms for lodging were anywhere from six to seven pence, usually. Like, that's what you would pay for one room for one night. Damn. And you had to share with multiple of the other people. And like I said before,

• 43:21Speaker 01

  you left the next morning. But there were a couple of things you could do if you paid less than that, and they were pretty awful. For one pence, homeless people could enter some lodging houses and sit on a bench all night, but they were not allowed to sleep. You could sit up and awake on a bench all night. Why can't they just sleep on the bench? Like, why? Yeah. That's the dumbest shit. For two pence, they could do something called a two penny hangover, which meant you could sit on the bench in a row next to other two pencers, like a whole row of them. And they would string a rope in front of all of you, and you could hang over that rope to sleep. But you could only sleep if you were slung over that rope.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  What the fuck is history? And a lot of people think the term hangover came from that. Oh, yeah. I mean, that makes sense. So for four pence, there were things called coffins that you could sleep in. Legit, you slept in a wooden box with a tarp over it. What the fuck? And it would have a ton of bugs and shit in it. It was, because it was not protected from the elements. It was just like in a wooden box. It was essentially a coffin. So those are the choices you would have. And also just like the mind games that that, like, that just fucks with your brain. It is. It's a lot of mind games. It's, it's a lot of sadness at this time. There was just a lot of sadness. Psychological warfare. Yeah. So after getting kicked out of Lambeth again, after those 10 days,

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Polly bounced around again, ended up sleeping in the square outside again in December. Oh, no. And then she finally stumbled into Mitcham Workhouse in Holborn and on January 4th, 1888. At the time, she had a nasty cough and was very ill after sleeping outside in December. So then, when she came into the workhouse, they sent her right to the infirmary, because they did have infirmaries here. Okay, that's good. She spent, yeah, I know. She spent a good amount of time there. And in April, she was sent back to Lambeth, because that was her home parish. And apparently, Holborn didn't want to pay to take care of her in their parish anymore. Wow. Yeah. She did pretty well this time around. And the matron of Lambeth

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Workhouse actually ended up recommending her for a job, working as a domestic servant for a couple, Frances and Martha Cowdery, who lived in a newly built home called Ingleside in Lonsworth Common. Okay. This is beautiful looking, like brownstone kind of thing. And like a really great opportunity for the time. Opportunity to get at least a leg up. A place to sleep. Yeah. On May 12th, 1888, she left Lambeth and took this opportunity. So Martha and Frances, according to her, she wrote letters to her father explaining this, were very kind to her. Good. They were good people. I'm getting excited and I know what happens. And it's like a really bad ending. But they expected her to work very hard. She was the only quote unquote servant in the home. And she was like, she was

• 46:12Speaker 01

  the only person on staff. She was expected to cook, clean, keep the fires going, keep the chimneys clean, polish silver, run errands, do sewing work, needlepoint, litter, laundry, every, she was run the house. The type of shit that will make you go crazy. Yeah. It seemed for a while that she would at least attempted to throw herself into this kind of life. She was like, you know what? Maybe this is my chance. And she had said that to her father. She wrote in an email. I almost said, oh, my God. She emailed him. She emailed him real quick. She opened her MacBook and said, type, type, type, type, gmail.com. She wrote a letter, because we are talking about the 1880s. She wrote a letter to him and said, you know, like, I'm really gonna try to get this going.

• 46:54Speaker 01

  I think this is my opportunity. It's really hard work, but it's also very tedious. I'm very bored, but like, we can do this. And again, it was hard work, but it looked, it was looked at as honest work. And she was looking, you know, I'm gonna get myself up in the ranks of society. Unfortunately, this life was not for Polly. Who knows what the reasoning really was, but she ended up just up and leaving exactly two months after she started to work there. She is feisty. I've, I feel she's been bouncing around now for years. In workhouses, lodging houses, she's Tired. Been on the streets. She slept in the square. She's been arrested. She's been in brawl. It, her life is a constant fight. And I feel like this, I imagine,

• 47:39Speaker 01

  again, I have not been in this position, so I cannot say for sure. I imagine after you have gotten used to that kind of fight or flight existence, settling to this and It's hard. Doing the same thing each day and every day, and then just sitting by yourself too. Yeah. Must be lonely and must be a very hard transition to go through, because other, she was never alone in the streets and on these workhouses and lodging houses. She had people around her. She had people that she knew. She at least had people that were friends of hers. She's really alone here. So who knows, though? She just, two months after, up and left. Unfortunately, she left with stolen linens that were valued at over 300 pounds today.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Damn. Mrs. Cowdery immediately reported her to Lambeth Workhouse, because after all, they recommended her and she now made them look bad. She took the linens, immediately pawned them, and she used the money for gin. She said, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, sheets of Egyptian cotton. You won't get that, because you've never seen Uptown Girls. No, I definitely don't know what that is. But there you go. Yeah. That's what she did. She didn't know where to go or what to do at this point. So she turned back to sex work. She obviously had stopped while she was living with the Cowderys, but this was all she could do at this point. She could manage to stay at some lodging homes or Doss houses on both Thrall Street and Flower and Dean Streets around this time. But apparently, according to the Hidden Lives

• 49:06Speaker 01

  of Jack the Ripper victims, Thrall Street was so dangerous that this was the street that police would only walk in, I think, groups of threes. Wow. Yeah. She was staying in a Doss house on Thrall Street the night she was murdered. What was a Doss house? I think you said it before, but I'm sorry. A Doss house, this is where you could get a room for like four pence, three pence. You basically could just stay there. Kind of like a motel. It was a bed. Okay. That's it. You're getting a bed. You don't pay for your bed. Get the fuck out. If you pay for your bed, you can stay here till the morning and then get the fuck out. Gotcha. Basically. And again, you could get some of these for four pence, three pence, if you shared, and even two pence at the time, but that was rare. These were not you getting a room. It was you getting a bed. Yeah. It's like a shelter.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  It was literally like, like a hostel kind of thing. Like, we're all staying in the same kind of, like a really gnarly hostel. Yikes. You would all be staying in the same room. It was rough. Now, between August 24th and August 30th of 1888, Polly definitely had a room at White House, which was at 56 Flower and Dean Streets in Spittlefields. This area was a place where people were servicing clients in alley, alleyways and doorways, right in the open. People, like, the Spittlefields are very known. People were openly robbing passersby's and stabbings were an everyday occurrence. The streets around it were called things like Blood Alley and Do As You Please Street. For real?

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Yep. At this time, she was sharing a room at 18 Thrall Street in Spittlefields with a woman named Ellen Holland. Okay. Now, August 30th, 1888, witnesses saw Polly leaving The Frying Pan, which was a pub that a lot of people frequented at the time. She left around 12:30 AM. And at 1:30 ish in the morning, witnesses saw her try to enter the Doss house that she had been staying at. But the owner said, no way, because she didn't have her four pence. And again, she'd been staying there for a while, but they did not give you You didn't have any chances. Yes. She was heard laughing in his face and saying, quote, and this is a quote that is like, across the board, that people said they heard. She said, quote,

• 51:18Speaker 01

  "I'll soon get my Doss money. See what a jelly bonnet I've got now?" And she was showcasing a black velvet bonnet that appeared to be new. Oh. No one had seen it before on her. So nobody really knows where it came from. But it was like, I guess it was like, had like the, almost that wicker look on part of it, but it was black velvet on the inside. It was black, like that wicker stuff. Right, right. Now, a bit after this, she ran into Ellen, who was her roommate at that Doss house. She ran into her around Osborne Street, and they just chatted for a bit. Ellen said Polly seemed very happy, very drunk. And Ellen was like, hey, like, why don't you come back to the Doss house with me? Like, you need to get off the street. And Polly responded, quote, "I've had my lodging money three times

• 52:02Speaker 01

  today, and I've spent it at The Frying Pan or The Ten Bells. I won't be long before I'm back." So she was literally like, oh, I've made it three times today and I've spent it. And she was like, okay. So she left Ellen towards Whitechapel Road. Her plans were very clear. She was going to get a client, make her four pence, and she was gonna head back to the Doss. That's what she told Ellen. Okay. It was a very short time later, around 3:45 AM, that Polly Nichols was found brutally murdered on the street in Buck's Row Whitechapel. That's so sad, because she was so close to just going in for the night. And she seemed to be having, like, she was just joking with people to just be like, ah, fuck it, I've spent all my lodging money, but I'm just gonna go make some and I'll be back. Like, she just seemed like she was just having like a, eh, whatever night. Like, yeah.

• 52:48Speaker 01

  And then she just leaves her friend, her roommate, and there it is. And it was right around her birthday. It was, yeah, which is really sad. Yeah. Now, after the initial examination, after she was found, the doctor on the scene ordered that she be taken to the mortuary that would be for the workhouses. Mortuaries were definitely not the morgues of today. So they waited and they left her there before, they just left her in the open, before summoning two workhouse inmates, quote unquote. That's what they would call workhouse people. So it was prison. Basically, to come and move her. So they were like, being, that was part of their workhouse job. So they came and immediately took her to the very crude mortuary. That was where she was going to be examined. Like a hut on the side of the road.

• 53:31Speaker 01

  It's like, literally like a shed in, like, next to a workhouse, basically. There she was stripped of all of her clothing. And while this was happening, they noticed that besides the gaping and obvious neck wound that they saw, there was a hidden and rather large and very jagged gash on the lower side of her, lower left side of her abdomen. Her intestines were literally spilling out of this wound. Now, according to the complete Jack the Ripper by Donald Rumbolo, quote, "The abdomen had been cut open from the center of the bottom of the ribs along the right side, under the pelvis to the left of the stomach. There, the wound was jagged. The omentum, or fatty membrane, which covers the front of the stomach, was cut in several places. And there were two small stab wounds on the vagina."

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Just a warning for all four of these, there's a lot of shit that you're gonna hear. And these, they are gruesome, they are graphic. I'm gonna give it all to you. So just know that ahead of time. There's a lot of like, you know, what appears to be sexual mutilation and brutality. So just so you know. Jack the Ripper had a lot of issues. Yeah, obviously. There were several incisions made in her abdomen. Many of them were very deep. When she was moved to take off her clothing, they saw that blood had soaked her clothes and the pavement beneath her. Immediately, they thought that this weapon was a blade around six to eight inches long. And they believed it could have been something like a shoemaker's knife.

• 54:59Speaker 01

  Mary Ann Monk, who was Polly's friend who identified her, was also the one who connected police with Polly's father and husband. She was like, you should probably let them know. Yeah. Now, William, her estranged husband, came right down to the mortuary and witnesses said when he laid eyes on her, he was silent and just stunned for a while. But he felt a little guilty. Well, and after a long time, he said, quote, "Seeing you as you are now, I forgive you for what you have done to me." He then turned and said to the doctors, "Well, there is no mistake about it. It has come to a sad end at last." Okay. Which is sad. It seems like it's a sad, you know, you just like, look at this and you're like, both of you are just sad.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And like, you screwed each other over. It was a toxic relationship that began as not a toxic relationship, and that's sad. Yeah. And I think it was like. It's like you both had the best of intentions, but. But it really didn't end that way. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Exactly. Now, this case was already flummoxing because she was laid right out in the open and also right under the windows of two women who were Mrs. Green and Mrs. Perkis, who were both home. And at least one of them was awake at the time of the murder. Damn. And nobody heard anything. So this killer must have been fast and must have been efficient to sever that windpipe so quickly. So that she couldn't scream. To render her silent while he mutilated her. Right.

• 56:24Speaker 01

  Now, Thursday, September 6th, 1888, was Polly's funeral. William paid for it, but did not come. Six years later, he married Rosetta. I'm done. Six years later. I'm done with Rosetta. Yeah. I mean, six years later, at least, he didn't just like, run out and marry her. But like, that's a thing. That is a thing. That is a thing. Now, interestingly, like I said, they were at a loss because this man or group of people, they were pretty sure it was one man, had done this quickly, very efficiently, and was able to run away without being seen and would have been covered in blood, at least on his hands. But who wasn't? The only thing they could point to, like we talked about earlier, would be the various butcher shops in the area and slaughterhouses, which would make it easier

• 57:07Speaker 01

  for someone to go around unnoticed with blood all over them. It's so crazy to think about that. Yeah, especially in the early morning, when everything's getting set up. Yeah. Of course, they would be. They're all setting up. Exactly. So, yeah, it's a little weird, but you know. It's a lot weird. It's a little weird. Don't keep it that weird. But we have a couple of other murder victims that I mentioned before, before Mary Ann Nichols, that made investigators quirk their eyebrows a bit and wonder if they were connected. So what we are trying, so what a lot of people who look into this case say is they believe there are 11 murders that people end up trying to connect together. I didn't realize there was 11. Yeah. They try to form those together with the canonical five, and this is one

• 57:48Speaker 01

  of them. So there is hot debate about whether there were two victims before Nichols that seemed to be connected, or just one, or any before her at all. All right. I am on the none before her at all. Oh, okay. So you don't think, you think she is definitely Jack's first? She's the first one that we know about. But if I find another one, I will eat my hat. So the Newcastle Chronicle, and then the Hull Daily Mail, wrote articles claiming that there were six Whitechapel murders, as we know canonical five. Emma was the first that they cite, this woman named Emma. So they were at least at the time claiming that she was part of this canonical set. They looked at her as part of this five. Okay.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  We know the name of one victim for sure was Emma Elizabeth Smith. This is one of the victims that they tried to claim. She was attacked April 3rd, 1888, which was only a few months before Polly. She was 45 at the time of her death and was working as a sex worker at the time and was living in a Doss House at 18 George Street, Spitalfields. Not alone is known about her, but she's often described as a widow who had two adult children. She had a tendency to drink a lot. And when she did, she often got herself into fights. She was seen many times with black eyes and other injuries, which she would say was because of a bar fight or a fight in the street over some silly nonsense. It was 12:15 a.m. April 3rd, that her friend and fellow lodger at the Doss House, Margaret

• 59:17Speaker 01

  Hayes or Hames, different and different sources. Margaret saw her speaking to a man dressed in a black suit with a white handkerchief around his neck. She said he was average to medium build, and unfortunately, she could not identify him if she had seen him. She was like, I don't think I could pick him out of a lineup, to be honest, which like, good for her for being honest. Yeah, I know. She was just like, sorry, I can't do that. We appreciate it. You know, she was seen speaking to this man in the area of Faren Street Limehouse. It was shortly after this that something terrible happened to Emma. She survived it, but she was badly injured. Oh, shit. Yeah. So around four or five in the morning, she, now, she initially survived

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  it is what I should say. I had a feeling that that's what you meant. I was gonna say, around four or five in the morning, she stumbled back into the lodging house at 18 George Street. And the deputy of the lodging house, Mrs. Mary Russell, immediately saw that she was in terrible shape. She saw her face was a bloody mess and her ear had almost been completely cut off. She told her that she'd been beaten, raped, and robbed on her way home to Osborne Street. She said she was in a lot of pain in her lower half of her body. And with that, she was taken to London Hospital. This is where it's really bad. And I'm going to warn you ahead of time. It was found that she had walked a quarter of a mile to the lodging home from where she was attacked by herself. Wow. It had taken her four hours. Oh.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  And she had passed multiple police officers, none of which asked, she asked for help, and none of which they asked to help her. Jesus Christ. This is just so sad. And it's like, she would have, when you find out what her injuries are, it would have been very clear that she was in pain. And I know it was in the, it's dark, and I understand that you couldn't see that she was covered in blood. You're a police officer. But she had to have been moaning in pain. There's no way she was silently walking this for four hours. And I'm sure she's walking like shuffling, basically. Oh, yeah. Because when you find out what her injuries are, there's no way she was walking normally. It was discovered by George, Dr. George Haslip, who was the surgeon on duty when she arrived at the hospital, that aside from her facial injuries, she was suffering

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  from incredibly horrific internal damage because a blunt instrument had been forcibly inserted into her vagina, hard enough to cut the perineum, which is the skin between the vagina and anus. Also, the peritoneum had been ruptured. This is the tissue that lines the abdominal wall and also lines most of your internal organs. Oh, my. She had torn a length of fabric from her shoulder strap and used it to hold between her legs and soak up the blood. So she walked the entire four hours with that between her legs soaking up the massive amounts of blood she was losing.

• 1:02:04Speaker 02

  Like she's hemorrhaging.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Unfortunately, she died the following day from secondary peritonitis, which is an infection and inflammation of the peritoneum from rupture.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  That's what they thought happened to Virginia, Virginia Rappé.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. But before her death, she had told those around her what had happened to her. She was like, I gotta tell you what happened. Now, an inquest was ordered into her desk, desk, death, April 7th. And apparently, the police weren't even told about any of this until April 6th. So they didn't hear about this crime that had been committed against her until after.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  So they already lost a ton of investigation time.

• 1:02:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Now, according to the inquest, of which the transcript was posted in The Times in April 1888, Mr. Winn E. Baxter, the East Middlesex coroner, held an inquiry on Saturday, the 7th of April, at the London Hospital, and it says, "Respecting the death of Emma Elizabeth Smith, age 45, a widow lately living at 18 George Street Spitalfields, who it is alleged had been murdered. Chief Inspector West of the H. Division of Police attended for the Commissioners of Police." It says, "George, Mr. George Haslip, house surgeon, stated that when the deceased was admitted to the hospital, she had been drinking but was not intoxicated. She was bleeding from the head and ear and had other injuries of a revolting nature.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  Witnesses found that she was suffering from rupture of the peritoneum, which had been perforated by some blunt instrument used with great force. The deceased told him that at half past 1:00 that morning, she was passing near Whitechapel Church when she noticed some men coming towards her. She crossed the street to avoid them, but they followed, assaulted her, took all the money she had, and then committed the outrage. She was unable to say what kind of instrument was used, nor could she describe her assailants, except that she said that one of the youths was of 19 years old. Death insured on Wednesday morning, April 4th, through peritonitis set up by the injuries." It says, "Chief Inspector West, H. Division, stated that he had no official information

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  on the suspect and was only aware of the case through the daily papers."

• 1:04:13Speaker 02

  Jeez, imagine like you're, you're reading the daily paper as the police chief and you're like, oh, cool, maybe somebody should have called me.

• 1:04:20Speaker 01

  "He had questioned the constables on the beat, but none of them appeared to know anything about the matter. The coroner said that from the medical evidence, which must be true, it was clear that the woman had been barbarously murdered. It was impossible to imagine a more brutal and dastardly assault, and he thought the ends of justice would be better met by the jury recording their verdict at once than by adjourning to some future date in the hope of having more evidence brought before them. When police did investigate the scene and the crime, it was tough, because again, it was reported days after. When they looked at the scene, they found there was no blood on the pavement, so they assumed her clothing and especially the cloth she ripped from her shoulder strap had soaked it all up. They had no physical descriptions of the men or man, other than the notion that she

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  kind of believed one of them was around 19 years old."

• 1:05:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  So this one, because she stated in no uncertain terms that it was men, I don't think this is it.

• 1:05:16Speaker 02

  That's what I was thinking too, because she, she said it was a few.

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's the robbing thing. I think that most of the time when there was any kind of robbing associated with the Jack the Ripper case, it was fake staged. Or just, it just, I don't know, it doesn't ring true to me, and I don't think he would leave a victim alive.

• 1:05:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't think he would have taken that chance.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, he's, he's too efficient. And he's too quick. He's too, as we'll see, most of these, some of them are done in under 15 minutes.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  I mean, they're, and he severs the windpipe. He severs the windpipe so no noise happens and so that you bleed out. He wants that carotid artery done so that he can just do his, he likes to do the mutilations postmortem. So I don't think it fits.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  I don't think so either.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  I don't think Jack the Ripper is men. I think it's a man.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  I, yeah, from what I know, I, I agree as well.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  That's just me.

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  And I don't know, it's just like an entirely different attack.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. It just doesn't feel the same to me. But I mean, that's just my opinion. Now, there is one mythical type case that doesn't really have a name attached to it. It's like an unknown victim. And this is before Emma's murder, around October or Christmas in 1887, so the year before.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  I love that they're like, maybe Halloween, maybe Christmas.

• 1:06:34Speaker 01

  Well, because we don't even know if this happened. It might just be a total mythical thing.

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  It's like a rumor.

• 1:06:39Speaker 01

  But I had to look into it because it is mentioned so often that I was like, there has to be something here.

• 1:06:44Speaker 03

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  So it's an unknown woman who was also said to be found on Osborne Street or around Osborne Street. She was later referred to as Fairy Fay. That was her nickname. But in an article in the New York Tribune, so another country, remember, we're over here now. So take this with a giant grain of salt because news is like a giant telephone. As we well know. It said this, "The history of the Reign of Terror, which now paralyzes all London with the panic of fear, reaches back for a year. The mutilator's first," because they used to call this the mutilation series, and him the mutilator. Yikes. "The mutilator's first success was achieved early in the month of October 1887, when

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  in the dark hours of the morning, the frightfully lacerated body of a woman was found lying in the passageway of a narrow alley in the immediate vicinity of Bishop's Gate Street East. The victim was an elderly woman, gin-soaked, degraded and lost. No one appeared to be aware of her real name. Her friends, if any, had long ago disappeared. She stood alone among her kind, a homeless, shameless wanderer. Nobody cared about her. Nobody made the least effort to find out why she was murdered or to discover her murderer. They regarded it as the most natural and fitting kind of death under the circumstances, shoveled her body underground, and forgot the case within two days." Wow.

• 1:11:59Speaker 01

  Now, that's, so that kind of thing, that kind of statement, that kind of description of this particular case is mentioned in a lot of newspapers, but they don't have a name for her. And there's a lot of debate, since no real name is attached to it, and it has so many similarities, when you really look into it, to Emma Smith's case. That maybe it was just- The one we just talked about. A lot of researchers wonder if these two cases are actually just a jumbled misrepresentation of Emma's case. And this second case is just pieces of the real Emma case that changed a bit to represent another fictional victim. Okay. Because you, I can't, I couldn't find reports of it in the year 1887. There might

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  be some. Right. But it's just interesting. Well, you, you have to wonder too, like, was that a filler article? Yeah, you don't know. Because, well, that's the thing. They're in a lot of newspapers, though. And in London, there, it's, she's mentioned, that that case is mentioned in a lot of different newspapers, all over the place. Do you think it could have just been like the hype about the case and like, well, there's another one? It definitely could have. That's the thing. But then I was like, why is it getting mentioned so much? I can believe that, like, we jumbled Emma into another fictional victim just because of the hype. I can get that. But then I came across, because I was like really obsessed with this, and I really went crazy one night, and I came across this parliamentary

• 1:13:28Speaker 01

  debate from November 14th, 1888, where a guy named Mr. Pickergill, who was a member of Parliament at the time, brought up the existence of a woman being brutally mutilated and murdered the Christmas before Emma Smith. Oh. So Mr. Pickersgill brings up, he's like talking about Sir Charles Warren, who was, this is really funny, Sir Charles Warren, I had to talk to John about this because he was a criminal justice major, too. He was an answer to many of my criminal justice tests in college. Like, as soon as I saw that name, I was like, oh, that guy. Yeah. He's, so what they're doing in this debate, he talks about the Metropolitan Police

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Force and how he is running it amid what they refer to as the mutilation series. And in this debate, it states, quote, "Two, at least, of the murders in the East End did not belong to what we might perhaps call the mutilation series. So long ago as Christmas week last, a woman was murdered in the streets of Whitechapel, and again on Easter Tuesday, another unfortunate woman, while passing by Whitechapel Church, was done to death by a gang of three men. She lived long enough to state her story so far. It was perfectly clear that these crimes did not belong to the abnormal series, which was now baffling our detective system, but they rather pointed to that disorderly condition of the public streets."

• 1:14:50Speaker 01

  So this, to me, this is a member of Parliament in 1888, talking about Emma and talking about one other case that happened sometime around Christmas the year before. Yeah, that's a, that's a valuable source. That's a- Feels like he's mentioning that Fairy Fay. Yeah. And this also illustrates how people in the press were likely trying to connect these murders to Jack the Ripper at the time, but even they state that it was, like, even the Parliament debate, they're stating, "These are clearly not connected," but instead just show how terribly dangerous the East End was at the time. Yeah, exactly. So as far back as then, they were being like, no, I don't think these two are part

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  of the mutilation series. I think they're just showing how shitty things are and how we're not investigating these crimes properly. I mean, there you have it. So that, to me, shows me Emma's not part of this series. And neither is potentially Fairy Fay. And neither is Fairy Fay. So bringing us back to August 30th, there's also another woman named Martha, who is like the third one after Emma, I believe. They try to connect her a lot to it. That one has no connection to me. So I didn't even go into it because it doesn't connect to this case even slightly, in my opinion. Okay. I also wish that instead of Jane Doe, we said Fairy Fay. Fairy Fay. I know, it's a really pretty way to describe someone. It is. It's like more, it just like feels better than Jane Doe. It's just nice. You know?

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  So bringing us back to August 30th, when Polly Nichols met her unfortunate end. There were cries for justice, and the police wanted a suspect, obviously. They began speaking to sex workers in the area and women who they would, who would have been friends with the victim, to ask if they knew of any terrible men who could have done this, like, have you run into any bad clients? Many of these women had one name to say, and it was John or Jack Pizer, better known for his nickname Leather Apron. What? He was a boot finisher, which is why he often wore a leather apron, and that's what they called him. That sounds so intense. I'm a boot finisher. Finisher. He was a true asshole. He used sex workers, but also blackmailed them

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  and physically assaulted them brutally. Fuck this guy. They were scared of him and conveyed this to the police. One newspaper described him as, quote, "A more ghoulish and devilish brute than can be found in all the pages of shocking fiction." Whoa. Inspector Joseph Helsin of Scotland Yard said, quote, "A man named Jack Pizer, alias Leather Apron, has for some considerable period been in the habit of ill-using," and they referred to them as prostitutes, "in this and other parts of the metropolis." He went on the, on, he actually went on the run when he heard that he was a person of interest. I will say right now, I don't believe Leather Apron is the guy. You don't? I don't think a lot of people believe Leather Apron is the guy. He's just an asshole.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  I'm sure some people do, but I do not. Now, meanwhile, the police were a mess at this time. In August 1888, the head of the Criminal Investigation Department of the Metropolitan Police Force resigned right before Nichols was killed. Oh. So it was right before she was killed. Not good. The Criminal Investigation Department, or CID, run by detective inspectors, inspectors, and their job was to investigate crimes that had already occurred, as opposed to the other side of the Metropolitan Police Force, which the police constables patrolling beats were there to prevent crime from happening in the first place. So one side was preventing crime, the other side was the, we deal with it after it happens. So the head of the Criminal

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Investigations Department resigned right before Nichols was murdered, and in stepped a guy named Robert Anderson. So Anderson worked for years in Secret Service and spy circles and was placed into the role of chief of the CID in August 1888. Now, as luck would have it, and the Ripper case is full of bad luck, as we will see in further installments of this. Yup. Anderson was a fucking mess in August 1888, too. He was so overexhausted from his various dealings and work, that he was on the brink of a nervous breakdown and a possible physical breakdown. Because he was like, he had 100 different jobs, he was the head of all these different depart, he was like strung out to the furthest. Right.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  So it got so bad that his doctor at this time told him, "You need to take a couple of weeks off and rest," or, like, they were literally like, "You need to separate from your work for two full weeks, or you may die." Like, literally, you might die. So he listened.

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  It's like, it's exhaustion.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, he listened and he left for Switzerland to take a vacation for two weeks.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  Perfect place to go when you're on the brink of a mental collapse, go to Switzerland.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  Head to Switzerland. He left on September 7th. So now the new head of the Criminal Investigations Department in charge of investigating this heinous crime, and whether it was the work of a killer who'd strike again, is in Switzerland.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Great.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  And the day after he leaves, another murder occurred.

• 1:19:58Speaker 02

  No, no good.

• 1:20:00Speaker 01

  And that's where we're gonna leave you for part one.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  All right.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  With the head of the Criminal Justice, the Criminal Investigations Department in Switzerland on a doctor ordered holiday so he doesn't die from stress.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  Whoo wee. What did, what did, uh, what did they say in Hannah Montana? Ye doggy.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I do not know.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wasn't asking you. I was gonna ask you.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  You don't know.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness, dude.

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  So that is, uh, that's the beginning of Jack the Ripper. We are going to talk about Annie Chapman next, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddows. We're going to, uh, we're gonna get into it. And I think, um, hopefully if this is four parts, the fourth part will be us going deep into suspects and theories and all that. So don't worry, we're gonna take the time on that. But yeah, that's our first victim, Mary, or Polly, is what she was known to as people who, who loved her, Polly Nichols.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Just like so sad overall, just.

• 1:21:01Speaker 01

  It's really sad. This whole thing is sad.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Like devastating.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  There's a lot of, um, like really getting into Annie Chapman next to, like, is there just really sad, sad, uh, life, basically?

• 1:21:14Speaker 02

  All these women, I feel, just had like the saddest lead up to the most brutal end.

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really is. It's just like, all of it is really brutal. But I'm gonna link all five of those books that I mentioned, and I'm sure by part two, I will have added more to your reading list on top of that, so.

• 1:21:31Speaker 02

  People are gonna have to get new bookshelves after this.

• 1:21:33Speaker 01

  You're gonna have to get an entire shelf that's just for Jack the Ripper stuff. I mean, people are ripperologists. People like absolutely like dedicate their lives to this. So I get it. I used to not get that. I get it.

• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Oh, I get it. When you become like so enthralled, and especially with a unsolved case that has so many theories, I get it.

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. I used to, like, I always thought it was an interesting case, but I was like, how can you really be a ripperologist? How much evidence can you really be looking at in all this? And then when you start diving into it, you're like, holy shit.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  It's like overwhelming. I remember my sophomore or junior year writing like a silly paper about it, you know, just a high school paper and being like, oh, my God, like, how am I gonna get all this information in one paper? And I very much did not.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  I very much did not.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  I did not do so.

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Well, the amount of witnesses that are involved, the amount of people who saw these women at different times and could state what they saw is really interesting. Newspaper.com, I'm telling you, is like, woo.

• 1:22:31Speaker 02

  It's a goldmine.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  I have been, and they're not, they don't pay us, just so you know, like, I'm just like.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  No, we pay them.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I pay them and I will continue to, cuz it's a great research source. And finding these old newspapers that were written at the time.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  And in the panic and in the vernacular that was used, it's just all like, I couldn't get enough. I was printing out so many of them and Joan was like, please stop.

• 1:22:55Speaker 02

  It puts you there. Like, why you said, like, with the vernacular and everything?

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  And it's real.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  It is, yeah.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  It makes it real, cuz sometimes it's hard. You know, over 100 years ago, it's hard to put yourself in this as like a reality. And then when you start reading the newspapers and reading these witness statements and the, the coroner's reports and coroner's inquests, there's, you're like, holy shit, this really happened. Like, this is a real thing that happened and it's really fucking brutal and really awful. And these women, it's so sad. But, um, there's also, there's a couple of websites I'm gonna link to that are just like fascinating and you guys will get just taken down the rabbit hole with them. There's like Ripper Casebook and a couple of other ones that I really want you to go see because they're just wealth of information. They have a lot of the inquests and all that.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  So, um, and actually, one of them, after I found that parliamentary debate, I was, kept searching further and I found that this other website had also found that parliamentary debate. So I was like, cool, okay, so it's real. I was like, that's fun. But yeah, I'll link all of those, link all the books and get ready, cuz it's gonna get worse and worse. Yeah, I apologize.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Part two of Jack the Ripper.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, part two of, uh, a few parts, I'm, I'm gonna say.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, we did say that, I think we told you it was gonna be four. Maybe we said that, like, potentially?

• 1:24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think I said it was probably gonna be four.

• 1:24:28Speaker 02

  Probably gonna be five.

• 1:24:29Speaker 01

  Might be five, but here's my thoughts. Okay. We gave Albert Fish four parts, and this is Jack the Ripper. I feel like it deserves a little more.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and there's more victims involved and there's, like, you had to set up London as the scene. You had some really like cool asides. Not cool, they were actually like horrifying, but.

• 1:24:51Speaker 01

  But interesting.

• 1:24:52Speaker 02

  To hear about, you know, it's, this case, the, it's one of those cases where the character, no, not the character, where the setting is also like, almost like a character in this, in the story.

• 1:25:03Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, that's, this has a lot to it, a lot of like the police force at the time, a lot of like inner workings and what was going on with all that. And like, there's just so much going on and there was so much, you know, there was so many news reports about this. The media plays a big role in it. There was the letters that we haven't even gotten to yet, cuz they haven't even been sent yet, the Ripper letters.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  He hasn't even been named Jack the Ripper yet. Like, this is, there's so much that it's just.

• 1:25:32Speaker 02

  Saga. And it, and it was when it was, when it was ongoing, you know?

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it truly is. So we'll see. If I can wrap it up in four, I will try to do so, but not at the expense of giving all the information.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  Never.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  That's how I feel.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  So here we are. So when we last left you at part one, Mary Ann Nichols, or Polly, as she was known to those who loved her, was found brutally mutilated and killed.

• 1:25:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  At this point, too, the new head of the investigation, of the Criminal Investigation Department of the Metropolitan Police, Robert Anderson, has been told by a doctor that he needs to take, I said two weeks off. I actually double checked. I was wrong. It was two months he was told to take off.

• 1:26:15Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, he was told to take off two full months and go on holiday. Do not do work because you might die.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  You know, it's funny, I was thinking when you originally said it, I was like, wow, two weeks is just gonna like bring him his life back. Okay.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Just here it is.

• 1:26:29Speaker 02

  I was like, where do they think he's going?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, he's going for two months. He told him, you were, and I guess, I did read in a couple of sources that the doctor actually said, after those two months, I will happily write you another month on top of that, like another note saying you need another month.

• 1:26:44Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  But it was not at a great time because this happened as soon as the murder started.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  And he had just got the job. He had just taken the job.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  Ooh, that, that doesn't look so good.

• 1:26:55Speaker 01

  No, I mean, he was definitely doing a ton of other, he was like doing spy work and shit before this. So he was like, that's why he came into it so over exhausted, but.

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  He gives, uh, he gives Capricorn energy.

• 1:27:07Speaker 01

  He does a little bit, so.

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  You're like, shut the fuck up.

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  I figured we would start part two by going into another thing, just so you can have background on what we're talking about. A lot of these places, in fact, almost all of these places that we are going to be talking about where victims were found or seen last, you're gonna hear Spitalfields a lot. Spittle was actually a name for a type of hospital, Spittle.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:27:33Speaker 01

  It was actually, I think it was like a charitable hospital where like they did this for free. They would take care of people who couldn't pay for medical care. So the Fields east of the St. Mary's Spittle, it's called, was, uh, which was founded in 1197, by the way.

• 1:27:49Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Were where the Spitalfields got their name.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  And so there's apparently this beautiful and like very imposing and just like Gothic looking church called Christ Church that still stands there today and was here in that spot during the Ripper crimes. Like, you could go to this spot and be like, this was here during all of that.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 1:28:10Speaker 01

  And it's, it's basically around that is Spitalfield Markets and other businesses. And a lot of Ripper locations are in Spitalfields. So Dorset Street, where, where we've already mentioned that street, it's where a lot of the lodging homes were and where a lot of the women were killed, that were killed by Jack the Ripper were on it or out and about on Dorset Street. It was considered one of the worst streets at the time and very dangerous.

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  But like, what street wasn't in London considered one of the worst and very dangerous?

• 1:28:39Speaker 01

  It's true. Well, London itself had a whole other end that wasn't as dangerous.

• 1:28:43Speaker 02

  I should say Whitechapel.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, like the, the Whitechapel area was definitely like just.

• 1:28:48Speaker 02

  Seedy.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Gnarly. Uh, but there were certain streets that were like, you turn down that, those were the streets that the police wouldn't go down by themselves.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:28:57Speaker 01

  So that Dorset Street was one of those. Annie Chapman, who we're gonna talk about, is found murdered on Hanbury Street, which is also part of Spitalfields. Fashion Street is where Catherine Eddows, we will talk about her in part three, where she was staying and also where we see Elizabeth Stride staying with a man for some time. We'll talk about her, too. There, there were just everywhere. The Spitalfield is, Fields is a huge part of this story. The Ten Bells Pub still stands today and was possibly the last place Annie Chapman was seen. It's just crazy. Like you can literally go there and be like, whoa, like this is where.

• 1:29:34Speaker 02

  To sit there would be so heavy.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  It would. Just to think like, this is the last place she was seen.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:29:40Speaker 01

  Like alive with somebody.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  It's a lot.

• 1:29:42Speaker 01

  Um, so I was excited when I was, you know, you see Spitalfields over and over again. I was excited to be able to bring Ghost into this.

• 1:29:51Speaker 02

  So I was waiting for you to, and I wasn't gonna steal your thunder and make a comment because that's your band, baby. But I was like, she's not saying anything about Spitalfields.

• 1:30:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, of course I am. Uh, it happened to fit perfectly that there is a song on their latest album, one of which I love. This is one of my favorite songs on the album.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  Can confirm.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  Called Respite on the Spitalfields. And I had to look into this because of course, what could that mean? And when you listen to the lyrics, you're like, all right, what's this about? Apparently Tobias has said it's about the aftermath of Jack the Ripper. And it's very obvious when you know that. Um, he said, it's all based on the fear that prevailed because of the fact that he was not identified. Uh, he said in an interview, you know, the fact that he was never identified, it says, which meant that even though he had technically stopped killing at some point, they were never sure that he was not going to do it again. So for a long time after, there must have been fear, especially among women, that it could happen again. Because you don't know where he is. You don't know where he's hiding. You don't know what happened.

• 1:30:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  So we'll get into the aftermath of the Ripper murders and probably part four or five, four or five, whichever one we end on. Uh, when we talk about theories and suspects, we're going to talk about how the aftermath was. But the song has lyrics like, you know, he sliced and diced our dreams to pieces, to pieces. And the moon in the gutter has a story to tell. One day he will come back from the bowels of hell. So creepy, so heavy when you actually dive into this case.

• 1:31:23Speaker 02

  And when you realize what it's about, because I, we listen to Ghost like all the time in the car. Like when we take our little morning drives for coffee. And I've heard this song a million times, but then you were saying the other day, you were like, this is about Jack the Ripper. And I listened closer and I was like, holy shit.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just, it's the, even the music.

• 1:31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  Kind of brings you there. It's like a really well done, like homage to that time, I think.

• 1:31:49Speaker 02

  And then they say like, they're leaving London.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we're leaving the city, like goodbye, Seven Sisters, which is like a road in London. Like there's, it, there's a lot of it. I'd suggest you go listen to it, especially since you're listening to this series right now. It'll get you in the mood. It definitely got me in the mood.

• 1:32:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a good song.

• 1:32:05Speaker 01

  I may come back to this song later in part three-ish, maybe when we talk more about police and the shenanigans that arose around this case. We're gonna, we're gonna touch upon that in this one too. Um, but there's a lyric that I also wondered maybe referring to Sir Charles Warren, who led the Metropolitan Police Force during these crimes. Um, but that was just kind of an interesting look into Spitalfields and a good song related to it, basically. Um, but and I'll tell you the lyric that I think might be referencing him, but.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  I was like, when?

• 1:32:35Speaker 01

  I want to wait a little bit until we get there.

• 1:32:37Speaker 02

  Will we get there today?

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know if we'll get there today. I should, you know, and I'll give you the lyric.

• 1:32:41Speaker 02

  Why should I make you?

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Wait. So there's a lyric that says, you know, uh, the king that we hailed was the Wizard of Oz. Like we found out that the king we hailed. The thing about Sir Charles Warren, and I'm going to go into him right now, actually, so that it works out. Work out is that he, everyone had such high hopes for him. And I think he probably could have done a little better, but I think he had a lot of bad, uh, hands dealt to him for sure. But he didn't handle some big events very well.

• 1:33:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  And so I think people were so ready for this guy to come in and organize this police force and get, whip them into shape. And then it just fell apart. And to me, it's like the king we hailed was the Wizard of Oz. Like he kind of was the Wizard of Oz, where it was all smoke and mirrors and it, behind the scenes, it was a mess.

• 1:33:27Speaker 02

  That makes sense.

• 1:33:28Speaker 01

  But I don't know. I don't know. Can, can we ask Tobias at some point, maybe?

• 1:33:31Speaker 02

  That'd be so cool.

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  Could I just ask him, like, what did that mean? Did that mean Sir Charles Warren?

• 1:33:36Speaker 02

  That's on manifesting.

• 1:33:38Speaker 01

  That is on manifesting. I want to be able to talk to him about this case so badly now.

• 1:33:42Speaker 02

  Maybe you'll get the opportunity someday.

• 1:33:44Speaker 01

  I hope so, man. Uh, Tobias, you hear that? Uh, so you're listening, right?

• 1:33:49Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  So quick little sidetrack about Sir Charles Warren while we are on that. Uh, just so you know, because he's going to come up a lot in this, and I don't want you to be like, who's that guy? Like I said, he was appointed Chief Commissioner of Police for the Metropolitan Police Force in March 1886. He was a major general in the Royal Engineers and his militaristic ways were definitely something that made him a prime candidate for the job he was given. Uh, he was actually the third choice for this job.

• 1:34:17Speaker 02

  Right, bro.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  You know, details.

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  Third time is the charm.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  They got him. So he was there to put them all in their place, essentially, because the Metropolitan Police Force was a fucking wreck. Like there was just no, uh, there was a lot of disrespect. There was a lot of distrust, low morale amongst the ranks.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  I mean, a woman had walked past them like bleeding out with her intestines on the side and they didn't notice her.

• 1:34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, they just didn't notice.

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  That about wraps that up.

• 1:34:43Speaker 01

  So I guess Sir Charles Warren came in, he commanded respect. He gave it back sometimes and he ran a tight ship. And he wanted, and he wanted to keep, exactly. So.

• 1:34:55Speaker 02

  I had to.

• 1:34:56Speaker 01

  You had to. So he kind of got the ranks in order. He, people knew what they were expected to do when he came in, at least that was something that happened. But unfortunately, he also had a really rocky start and really finish to the role there. Bloody Sunday, November 13th, 1887, was one thing that really just popped a jagged hole in his tenure as Commissioner, I would say.

• 1:35:19Speaker 02

  If something's gonna do it, it is Bloody Sunday.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Something called Bloody Anything is really gonna do it. I'm not going to get into like the minute details here because we would be here for another episode on just Bloody Sunday, if I did that.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  Maybe another time.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Maybe another time. Uh, I'm just going to give you a quick overview so you know why people had a lot of distrust after this. Uh, Trafalgar Square, where, uh, Mary Ann Nichols was arrested sleeping in.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:35:43Speaker 01

  Um, was actually a place where a lot of protests and gatherings happened often. And Warren was worried that, you know, the gathering of minds and ideas was going to threaten good society. He was worried that they were going to come together and they were going to just like riot and something bad was gonna happen. So he was like, I gotta stop this. So he asked the Home Secretary, Henry, uh, Henry Matthews to ban all gatherings in the square. So Henry Matthews took a while to actually like respond to this because again, there's a lot of weird shit happening in this police force. There's a lot of like egos. There's a lot of like, I like this guy and now you're in his spot. And I'm not gonna listen to you.

• 1:36:22Speaker 02

  Always.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  So he took a while to answer that, but after a couple of months, he agreed and he was like, sure, let's ban gatherings in the square. And when he did, Commissioner Warren announced this ban was going into effect. Several groups found this to be unfair and planned a large gathering to protest it in the square on November 13th. In preparation for this, Warren stationed 4,000 constables, 300 mounted policemen, 300 mounted lifeguards, armed foot guards and more in the square.

• 1:36:55Speaker 02

  That's a lot.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  I'm sure it probably comes to zero surprise to anybody listening right now. That shit got violent and bloody very quickly.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  So needless to say, he was not beloved after this.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Then with the Ripper murders, things were just getting worse. And I'll say at, at some point, I'm going to read you like an internal memo that he wrote about them that like, oh, I was like, Charles, you're not, you're not killing it, bro.

• 1:37:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  So after the murder of Polly Nichols, it was Inspector Frederick George Aberline and Inspector Edmund Reed, who were really on the ground investigating this case to just the nth degree.

• 1:37:36Speaker 02

  Those names do sound familiar.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, probably more than Edmund Reed, I would say Inspector Aberline is some, someone that everybody's.

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  Yep, that's the one that I recognize.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, that's somebody that a lot of people like connect with this case with, for good reason. Now, when Mary Ann Monk, who was Nichols's friend and the one who helped identify her, uh, said to Aberline, you know, she has a husband, estranged, but she has a husband.

• 1:38:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, he might know something.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Aberline immediately located him to bring him to the, uh, the inquest.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  Get an Aberline.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  It was in front of the inquest that they were like, hey, you need to bring this guy in. And Aberline was like, can have him by Monday. And he had him by Monday.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  So he's on it.

• 1:38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we're gonna talk more about Aberline later for sure. So this brings us to September 8th, 1888. The day after Robert Anderson, the new Assistant Commissioner of the CID, has taken a doctor ordered holiday to Switzerland.

• 1:38:29Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 1:38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. On this morning, you are now going to meet John Davis.

• 1:38:35Speaker 02

  Hello, John.

• 1:38:36Speaker 01

  John Davis is a 56-year-old carman who worked for Leadon Hall, Leadon Hall Market. I hope that's how you say it, or Leadon Hall. I'll say Leadon Hall. It sounds better.

• 1:38:45Speaker 02

  Leadon Hall does sound better.

• 1:38:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, he worked for Leadon Hall Market, living in a lodging home at 29 Hanbury Street in Spitalfields. He was living in the third floor attic with his wife and three sons. They had moved into this lodging home three weeks prior. And since living there, they had learned that often sex workers would haggle with and bring their clientele into the yard outside of the building. And he would often have to kind of like shoe them away. That was just like part of his daily routine.

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  What an interesting time.

• 1:39:13Speaker 01

  Very interesting time. The yard in the back of the home had a gate that was never locked. It was just a gate. And actually, most sources I saw were like, we don't even know if it did lock.

• 1:39:23Speaker 02

  Yikes.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  So it was an easy area for people to just trample through or to bring clients to, or to what was called sleep rough, which was sleeping outside.

• 1:39:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Um, and it was kind of like a throughway that people would just use. So they just stomped through this yard.

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  Do people say rough in it? No.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Rough in it? Yeah. Like if you're going camping, you're like, rough in it?

• 1:39:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. It used to be called sleep rough when you were sleeping outside.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Uh, this lodging home was one that you would typically find in this area in the East End. It had eight rooms and there were 17 people living in them.

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  Holy shit.

• 1:39:54Speaker 01

  Very cramped quarters.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  You would say so.

• 1:39:56Speaker 01

  The previous evening, September 7th, he said he went to sleep around 8:00 PM and he woke up, quote, "from 3:00 AM to 5:00 AM on Saturday and then fell asleep until a quarter to six, when the clock at Spitalfields Church struck. I had a cup of tea and went downstairs to the backyard," end quote. In a coroner's inquest later, Davis said this. He said, quote, "The house faces Hanbury Street with one window on the ground floor and a door at the side leading into a passage which runs through into the yard. There is a back door at the end of this passage opening into the yard. Neither of the doors was able to be locked and I have never seen them locked.

• 1:40:36Speaker 01

  Anyone who knows where the latch of the front door is could open it and go along the passage into the backyard." There was a little recess on the left from the steps to the fence is about three feet. There are three stone steps unprotected, leading from the door to the yard, which is at a lower level than that of the passage. Directly, I opened the door, I saw a woman lying down in the left-hand recess between the stone steps and the fence. She was on her back with her head, with her head towards the house and her legs towards the woodshed. The clothes were much, much disarranged. I did not go into the yard, but left the house by the front door and called the attention of two men to the circumstances. They work

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  at Mr. Bailey's, a packed case maker of Hanbury Street. I do not know their names, but I know them by sight. So he told the coroner that those men had got a police constable and that they had not entered the yard at all, nor had he again.

• 1:41:32Speaker 02

  They were like, we're not going in there.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. The coroner was pissed. At one point, Davis was like, I don't know what their names were. And the coroner was like, you don't know what their name, like, no one talked to these men.

• 1:41:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:41:45Speaker 01

  Who came over there? And so then Davis was like, yeah, I don't know. I have to get to work. So I don't have, which is like, just, he didn't know.

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  I was gonna say.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  But the coroner said, quote, "Your work is of no consequence compared with this inquiry." So he was literally like, I.

• 1:42:01Speaker 02

  I don't have time for this.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  And honestly, the coroners, I don't blame them. They're probably getting so frustrated with these cases because they're like, no one's telling us anything.

• 1:42:09Speaker 02

  Well, nobody seems to be paying attention to anything.

• 1:42:11Speaker 01

  No. And as we'll see later, they're not giving them maps of the area. They're not giving them where the body was found sometimes when they're getting the body afterwards. They were really given shit all to work with.

• 1:42:22Speaker 02

  And then they're like, how do you expect us to do our job properly?

• 1:42:25Speaker 01

  And they're like, well, we need to speak to these men. And he's like, yeah, I don't know who those men are. So and it's like, dude, I know, like, that you don't know, but like, what the fuck? So these men ended up finding Inspector Joseph Chandler, and they summoned him to the scene. Now, by this time, I should say antisemitism had made its way into this case already.

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  And newspapers and assholes on the street were saying it had to be a Jewish person who committed these crimes.

• 1:42:49Speaker 02

  Why is the world so fucked up?

• 1:42:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was basically an excuse to attack Jewish people.

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  This was a purveying theme here. It goes through when tragedy strikes, there's always people who use it as an excuse to execute their will, wills of, you know, racism onto the masses.

• 1:43:05Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:43:06Speaker 01

  But it does become a thing where they're like, well, I saw her with a Jewish man. And it's like, okay.

• 1:43:11Speaker 02

  Can you just like, shut the fuck up?

• 1:43:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does become a thing. So it's important to note. But what Inspector Chandler found was the savagely murdered body of a woman lying on her back. Her hands were raised, and her face was so covered in blood, as well as her hands, that Davis said when he first saw her, he couldn't even tell where the injury was, because it was just blood.

• 1:43:32Speaker 02

  Oh, whenever you hear that, too, you just, it's so, just to think about finding somebody in that state.

• 1:43:37Speaker 01

  Oh, I can't imagine. Her legs bent with her knees facing out, and her feet on the ground. Her coat and her skirt, both black, had been pulled up to expose her body, and they were soaked in blood. She was wearing striped stockings, which were obvious from her positioning, and she had been completely and brutally disemboweled. There was some kind of fabric or scarf or handkerchief, most likely, wrapped around her neck as well, but they said they believed that was done by her.

• 1:44:07Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  Like, as like a fashion thing. The police report said, quote, "Small intestines and flap of the abdomen lying on right side above right shoulder, attached by a cord, with the rest of the intestines inside the body. Two flaps of skin from the lower part of the abdomen, lying in a large quantity of blood above the left shoulder. Throat cut deeply from left and back in jagged manner right around the throat. Her throat was cut so deeply and so brutally that the killer had almost removed her head from her body."

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  And they said he likely meant to. He just didn't get to.

• 1:44:43Speaker 02

  He didn't have time.

• 1:44:43Speaker 01

  Because they said he literally grinded into that vertebrae in your neck. So he was trying to separate those bones, for sure. At one point, someone in the crowd had gathers, or someone in this crowd that had already gathered to gawk, they grabbed a tarpaulin and they did put it on her.

• 1:44:59Speaker 02

  That was nice.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  To cover her.

• 1:45:01Speaker 02

  Which is nice, but like, don't do that.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 02

  I'm like, that's really sweet.

• 1:45:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm like, that's nice.

• 1:45:07Speaker 02

  And you're like, that's sweeping evidence away.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not great. I understand the intention. I love it. I feel it. I'm there for it. The like, logic, like, don't do that.

• 1:45:14Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 1:45:15Speaker 01

  So Chandler sent for a doctor to examine the body before moving it to the mortuary and began a search of the crime scene. He ended up finding bloodstains on the fence about, and it was right above her, about 14 inches up.

• 1:45:28Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  And some more on the wall behind her. Now, her wedding ring, and what they think was two more brass rings, were forcibly removed from her fingers and not found.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 1:45:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they looked, they were like bruised, like he had like ripped them off her fingers.

• 1:45:42Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 1:45:43Speaker 01

  Her pocket in her skirt was cut open with a blade, and the contents were not stolen, they were just placed around her. There was a comb, some muslin fabric and a paper case that was just like open and empty were next to her on the ground. Next to her head was a piece of paper and a ripped up piece of envelope with the letter M on it, and postage from August 28th, 1888, with a couple of pills inside of it.

• 1:46:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:46:10Speaker 01

  And in the envelope. Now, most intriguing, but something that really doesn't, it like plays into some suspects, but they kind of just let this go after a while. Most intriguing was a leather apron that was found nearby soaked in water.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  Huh. Almost like it had been like rinsed off?

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Because there was a little water spout nearby, and they said it looked like it had been washed off.

• 1:46:32Speaker 02

  Which is weird, because you leave her in the state that she's in, and like, there's blood and skin and horrible things everywhere.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  But it's like, why would you wash off the apron?

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you could have like cleaned up the little contents that was in her bag. Like, you would think you maybe would do that.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  But then you, when you look at how quickly these are done, and what they are finding out that these are done so quickly, he didn't have time for anything. He had time to do his, what he was there to do. He didn't have time for anything extra.

• 1:46:57Speaker 02

  Then why would he wash the apron?

• 1:46:59Speaker 01

  Well, and that's why I don't think it belonged to him.

• 1:47:01Speaker 02

  Wasn't related.

• 1:47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think it belonged to him. It's intriguing. I don't think it belonged to him.

• 1:47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Leather aprons were everywhere. People were wearing them for a lot of different jobs. It, it doesn't surprise me that one was in the yard.

• 1:47:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:12Speaker 01

  Just discarded.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  But, and that's why I just don't think, he wasn't taking time to clean anything.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  No, because that never happened at any other crime scene, to my knowledge, right?

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, it's, it just doesn't, it doesn't really ring true to what he's doing here. To me, it seems like he's doing these things very quickly, very efficiently at most of them. And he's getting the hell out of there, fast. And he must have somewhere he can go that he can clean up.

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:41Speaker 01

  At his leisure, even.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  And then the other thing that's weird to me is that he stole her rings, because previously, like, nothing had been stolen off of Polly.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Well, and that's the thing, it doesn't feel like the motive here, like, they're brass rings. Like, it doesn't, and it doesn't feel like the motive here is robbery, or like, for profit?

• 1:48:00Speaker 02

  Do you think that was a trophy?

• 1:48:01Speaker 01

  I don't know if that was a trophy, or if it was to confuse police, or what.

• 1:48:06Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  But I don't know.

• 1:48:08Speaker 02

  But this is Jack. Everything else has the Jack.

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. This all has the Jack emblem all over it. So when Dr. George Bagster Phillips showed up, he stated she was indeed deceased, and she was taken immediately away to avoid any further gathering of people around her. In the afternoon, a woman named Amelia Farmer came in and identified the victim as Annie Chapman, who also was called by some Dark Annie. She had been her friend. Later, her brother, and I, I've seen it spelled fountain, and also fountain. So I'm not exactly sure which one it is. I mostly saw it as fountain, so I'm gonna go with that. Was brought into, he was brought in to identify her as well later, and it was something that destroyed him emotionally.

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  Of course. A family member should have never been brought in, in the state that she was in.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  But they have to.

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  No, I totally, no, I know. But I'm just like, oh, my God.

• 1:49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like, it's unfortunate.

• 1:49:06Speaker 02

  You never have to go through that.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  No, you never should have to. And he started drinking as a result of seeing his sister that way. And he actually suffered a breakdown.

• 1:49:15Speaker 02

  I'm not surprised. I mean, how do you ever get that image out of your head of your sister?

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. And apparently, it got so bad, and this is from The Five, the book that I'm going to, I think I linked it in the first part, but I'm gonna link it again. It got so bad that he ended up stealing from his employer at one point to buy alcohol, and he got fired from his job.

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  That's really sad.

• 1:49:37Speaker 01

  He had a wife and two children. He eventually ran, like abandoned his family. The next week, he surrendered himself to the police station and wrote a letter to his wife saying, quote, "Oh, my darling wife, it is the cursed drink. For God's sake, don't let the children touch it." And he felt supremely guilty that he didn't know Annie's troubles. In their last, they had a drink together, the last time he saw her. And I'm sure that was weighing on him as well. He eventually did regain himself. He got his family back, and they all moved to America after this ordeal.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  That's great.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  So there was.

• 1:50:10Speaker 02

  Happiness.

• 1:50:11Speaker 01

  There was at least some kind of like, he escaped with his family.

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:14Speaker 01

  Now, let's talk about Annie Chapman. She was actually born Eliza Anne Smith, and she was raised in Paddington, West London, and born on September 2nd, 1841.

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  So another woman that died very close to her birthday.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, it's a strange little coincidence.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:32Speaker 01

  Her mother was Ruth Chapman, and her father was George Smith, and he was a military man. He served in the Second Life Guards, the men that he was not deployed like overseas or anything, but instead worked as part of the Queen's Household Cavalry. He basically was in charge of keeping the Queen and the Royal Family safe at their home.

• 1:50:51Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:50:52Speaker 01

  Which is a pretty important job. The family moved around a lot because of this military service, and the Queen and the Royal Family would live in different places like Windsor and stuff, and he would have to go live there.

• 1:51:03Speaker 02

  That's kind of cool.

• 1:51:05Speaker 01

  Well, unfortunately, both the parents drank excessively and were known for this.

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  They were actually not married when Annie was born and didn't get married until after she was born, and this was

• 1:51:15Speaker 02

  Taboo.

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  So scandalous at the time. They were seen as very taboo, very scandalous, and Annie soon was joined by a younger sister Emily and another younger sister Georgina.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  I love that name.

• 1:51:28Speaker 01

  It's really cute, but this was much later, when Annie was like 15 years old.

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  And then they had Miriam and a brother Fountain.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Now, the family was doing well. They lived in a lot of, you know, very nice homes and were not struggling with George's job being pretty upstanding and financially rewarding. During this time when they were living in Windsor, one of the many times they moved there, Annie got to know a man named John Chapman.

• 1:51:53Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Now, you're probably like, hmm, her mom's last name is Chapman.

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  Oh, that actually went completely over my head, so that's good.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  Her mom's last name is Ruth Chapman. They were related on their mother's, on her mother's side.

• 1:52:07Speaker 02

  Distantly?

• 1:52:07Speaker 01

  Cousins of some sort.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:52:10Speaker 01

  He was working in Windsor as a valet and making decent wages. He would sneak Annie and himself into his employer's home, you know, using the keys that he was trusted with and like not great, and they would drink his liquor together. That was like their thing.

• 1:52:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Annie got hooked on rum at this point.

• 1:52:29Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  She really enjoyed rum. They liked each other. They, you know, keeping the bloodlines pure and all that, I suppose.

• 1:52:36Speaker 02

  Well, the thing is, you have your cousins and then your first cousins.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  There it is.

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  I had to.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  You gotta bring it to a place of Mean Girls.

• 1:52:43Speaker 02

  I was waiting to.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  And, you know, back then, it just wasn't as uncommon as it is now.

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  It was like way more common.

• 1:52:50Speaker 01

  So Annie did not get along with her sisters. She was independent. She was rebellious. She didn't like the idea of being a proper lady. She didn't want to like conform to society.

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 1:53:01Speaker 01

  Her sisters, in contrast, were shy, what she considered prudish and liked to stay within the bounds of what society had laid out for them, because that's what they were being raised to do. They were just kind of going along with the family thing.

• 1:53:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:15Speaker 01

  She was like, I'm not into it.

• 1:53:16Speaker 02

  She's also a Virgo, and I feel like I'm learning more lately that Virgos kind of like to push boundaries like a little bit, not in a bad way, but like test limits.

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I see that. My youngest is a Virgo, so yes, I agree with that.

• 1:53:28Speaker 02

  And then think of, we have some other family members and friends that are Virgos, and it's actually applicable to almost all of them.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  It really is. It makes a lot of sense. Now, after a ton of moves, in 1862, the family was sent to live back in Windsor, where the Queen was spending a lot of time at this time. At the time of the move, they had been living in London, and Annie, being about 21 at the time, stayed behind to take on work as a domestic servant. This was very common. She was, honestly, she was like striking with brown wavy hair, like very piercing blue eyes. She had this like independent personality. She was feisty. She was unique. She just like wasn't going along with shit.

• 1:54:04Speaker 02

  Virgos are cool, man.

• 1:54:06Speaker 01

  You like get it, Annie.

• 1:54:07Speaker 02

  Annie was cool.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Not two years later, this is really sad, her father ended up killing himself by slashing his own throat.

• 1:54:15Speaker 02

  Oh, my.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Apparently, he had retired from his job early and was working as what was referred to as a manservant. Depression took over. He was not used to that kind of work. He was used to a different kind of work. He was predisposed to depression. He was drinking a lot. That mixed with, you know, the heavy drinking. Unfortunately, he just couldn't get out of it.

• 1:54:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, too, this month of the family was not just losing him, they were losing everything.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  They were financially ruined.

• 1:54:45Speaker 02

  That's awful.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  So Ruth had to move all the kids back to London to stay with a friend in Knightsbridge. By this time, John Chapman and Annie were becoming very infatuated with each other, and he asked her to marry him.

• 1:54:58Speaker 02

  Love it.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  So they married May 1st, 1869. By 1870, they had their first child together, a daughter named Emily Ruth Jane, which is really cute that it's like Ruth after the mom.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:55:10Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, Annie liked to drink, and she developed a taste for rum.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 1:55:15Speaker 01

  And she had come from two parents who were very heavy drinkers. That's what she was shown. She spent a lot of their money on this, causing them to have to move from their first home together back to lodging, to lodging with her mother Ruth and the other siblings.

• 1:55:28Speaker 02

  Which is definitely going to be stressful. That's a lot of siblings.

• 1:55:31Speaker 01

  And she had a series of stillbirths before having another daughter, which is like devastating.

• 1:55:37Speaker 02

  Harrowing.

• 1:55:38Speaker 01

  Another daughter named Annie Georgina Chapman. So George after her dad.

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she had a sister, Georgina, too.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, Georgina was another one.

• 1:55:45Speaker 02

  She had a sister Emily, so.

• 1:55:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:46Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  So it's cute. John got work on Bond Street in Mayfair, and they got a place in a pretty exclusive area, so things started going much more smoothly once he got this job.

• 1:55:56Speaker 02

  Are things just like ebbing and flowing constantly?

• 1:55:59Speaker 01

  Because then Annie got him fired.

• 1:56:02Speaker 02

  Oh, no. How?

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  She stole something from his boss.

• 1:56:05Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:56:06Speaker 01

  Either stole clothing or something to pawn for rum, or she stole the liquor itself. Who can't tell?

• 1:56:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  This made her brother and sisters furious. They were all religious. They all had upstanding jobs at the time. They were starting families of their own. They had grown up with parents who severely abused alcohol, and now they saw their older sister falling into it. They convinced her at the time, because they were like, we're going to save you. And I think they had like good intentions at the time. They had taken a pledge. They wanted her to join the temperance movement with them.

• 1:56:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  It persuaded alcoholics to take a pledge of abstinence from the drink, and they had all done so.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  So it's kind of like an AA?

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  Temperance was pretty intense. It was a pretty intense movement.

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  That's the sad thing, because these, like, anybody struggling with alcoholism at this time didn't have a program that wasn't super fucking intense.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  Over the top and making them feel like they were committing like the worst thing they could ever do by even having a sip. But they had, I believe they had good intentions here. They just wanted to save their sister from what they felt like their parents had fallen into. They were seeing her go down a bad path.

• 1:57:14Speaker 02

  And this is the resource that was available to them to do so.

• 1:57:17Speaker 01

  And they were raised in different, you know.

• 1:57:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  That's just the way it is. Now, they wanted Annie to do the same. They wanted her to take this pledge. They wanted her to like get away from it.

• 1:57:26Speaker 02

  And she said, fuck off.

• 1:57:27Speaker 01

  She did it.

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:57:28Speaker 01

  No, she did it, but.

• 1:57:29Speaker 02

  Great.

• 1:57:29Speaker 01

  And she, but she did it to please them and not for herself.

• 1:57:32Speaker 02

  And that's not going to work.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  This is evidenced by the, evident by the fact that she didn't stop and actually ramped up her rum drinking up to the point that in 1877, John, her husband, requested that she enter a program to get sober.

• 1:57:47Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  So she did agree, and she entered a voluntary program.

• 1:57:52Speaker 02

  I didn't even realize, okay, so they do kind of have programs.

• 1:57:55Speaker 01

  But not great programs.

• 1:57:56Speaker 02

  Not great ones.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  These are not programs where you're going and you're having, you're like actually talking about things and working through why you're drinking and getting to the bottom of it and like actually having like support and stuff. It was like a lot of just like forced religion and forced, like, it was a lot of stuff that wasn't going to help you get to the bottom of why you were drinking in the first place and maybe get you to want to stop.

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, forcing anybody to do anything is never going to have great results.

• 1:58:24Speaker 01

  Now, she spent up to a year in that program.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  So she was really trying.

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  And while she was in there, her sisters actually paid to have her daughters sent to school.

• 1:58:33Speaker 02

  That's nice.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  So her siblings did rally around her and were like, let's, we want to make sure that our nieces are getting what they need. And the sisters also helped the two, the two children get, like, take the important societal steps that they felt were necessary, like taking music lessons and like learning this and that, like learning how to be proper ladies, like all that kind of stuff.

• 1:58:54Speaker 02

  They were nurturing the kids.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Because that's what they thought was supposed to be happening.

• 1:58:58Speaker 02

  Very Bridgerton.

• 1:58:59Speaker 01

  Now, John got another job in Windsor with another wealthy family after he was fired from the last one, and it was very rewarding, this one. He moved their daughters to live over the stables at St. Leonard's Hill Mansion where he worked. It was very nice there. The people were nice there. While Annie's sisters helped out with making sure her daughters received the schooling and training they would need, John's boss provided the family with a nanny named Carolyn.

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  Great.

• 1:59:25Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, Emily Ruth Jane was dying, she was suffering from epilepsy. Oh, no. Which meant she would be treated by society like she was a demon spawn. Because at the time epileptics were not treated as like, oh, you have a disorder and we need to help you. They even touched by the hand of the devil. You, something terrible was done for this to happen to you and you're possessed by a demon. What the fuck? Yeah, it was really bad. And they even add at times, like, people thought epilepsy was brought on by like, too much masturbation, or like, that was a thing. Jesus Christ. Or just being possessed by a demon. I cannot. So things, they were able to, a lot of, the nanny, I guess, was really taking care of Emily Ruth Jane. Like, she was there to make sure that she was taken care of. That she was not possessed by the devil.

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  Exactly. Things seemed to be going well, and then Annie came home from treatment. She had completed that almost year of treatment. She was ready to live with her family again. So she moved in. They were all excited to have her back. But everyone else who was working and living on this estate was a little suspicious of her coming back. Like, the, the people they were working for were like, I don't know about this. Because they're like, you know, they're elite and they're, they're looking at this as, she's made this mistake and she can't possibly come back. But look, she's trying to rectify it. Like, that sucks. And they thought she was faking her sobriety, all that stuff. Like, give her a chance. Yeah. Now, around this time, she became pregnant with a son who would later be named John Alfred.

• 2:00:55Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, she was not able to stick to sobriety and things got pretty messy and pretty bad really quickly. She began drinking heavily again. While pregnant? I'm not sure if it was while pregnant. I can't say for sure, but she was definitely drinking at this time. And some people say, there is a story that I've read in a lot of different sources that say, she was really going along with the sobriety thing, but then one day, I think John had like a cold. And back then, you would have like a hot cup of whiskey to like loosen it up. And he did that. And then he gave her a kiss goodbye to go to work. And she tasted the whiskey and that's what set her into it. That's a story. I've heard it in many different places, but obviously, we can't confirm that.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  All we know is that it did get bad. So John eventually had enough. He didn't want to lose another job that supported his family. So he threw her out, even though she was pregnant at the time that he threw her out. So I imagine she was drinking while pregnant. Woof. Now, her son John was born with partial paralysis and had to be placed into a hospital shortly after birth. Nothing worked for him there. Obviously, they weren't able to cure the paralysis. And even though John and Annie had come together again while this was going on, because they wanted to support each other. This was tragic. She went right back into drinking heavily again, got bad again. She was spending all the money on rum and neglecting to buy food and clothing and such. He told her, this is the last straw. I never want to see you again.

• 2:02:25Speaker 01

  So she left and was homeless for a while. After weeks of struggling, she knew it was Whitechapel where she was going to be able to find cheap lodging and maybe some kind of work. Yeah. It was exactly how I have explained it to be with horrid conditions, a deep disdain for those living in poverty. It was just bad. So John, of course, I mentioned it in the first part, was required to pay her a week's, a weekly allowance. Oh, yeah, I forgot about that. That's really all she had in the beginning. But then she started to, she was like, you know what? I have some talents here. Like, she possessed many talents. Everyone who came forward to say they were around her during this time in her life, said she was sweet, intelligent, and well spoken.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  They, she was also, they said she was feisty, but like, in a fun way. Yeah. They felt calm around her when she wasn't drinking. Okay. When she drank, it was a whole other story. It's so sad how that happens because it could be your best friend and you're like, I love you so much. And then it's a whole entire inside. And like, you know that person is such a good person. And what they're capable of. Yeah, and what comes out when they drink is just not who this person is. But while she had previously, so while she was in, in treatment for that year, she had spent a lot of her time sewing and crocheting and getting really good at it. And so while in Whitechapel, she decided, like many other women at the time, that she could crochet, sew, and make artificial flowers and sell it all.

• 2:03:52Speaker 01

  People used to buy them. I said before that they would put them on these like fancy hats. Cool. And she dragged her wares to what is now known as West Ham to sell them. Unfortunately, it wasn't a like booming business. No. She was getting really almost nothing for it, all her hard work, and she was barely getting anything back. And that sucks. Now, her next move was to take up with men she knew who could help her pay her way. She was especially known to be around a man nicknamed the Pensioner, who was actually named Ted Stanley. He was older and had her wrapped a bit with his charms. And he had like, you know, tales of his colorful life and ba, ba, ba.

• 2:04:32Speaker 01

  He was currently working as a bricklayer, so he did have a constant source of income, but he wasn't like rolling in it. Was he a good dude? Yeah. So around this time, she got news. Posh. Not really. So around this time, you, it's hard to find good dudes in this story. There are some, though. There are some. I felt like her previous husband was like, kind of. John Chapman seemed to have, he gave it his all. He really did. He seemed to have given, given it a good, a good go. Don't love that he threw her out while pregnant. Just want to specify that. Yeah, don't love that. That's the thing. You really got to find the good here and it's real, it's real hard to find. Spars. It's like, oh, blink and you miss it. Like, that's, yeah.

• 2:05:13Speaker 01

  So around this time, she got news, and this is sad, this, she got news that her estranged husband, John Chapman, was very ill. Oh, no. And that he was not expected to live much longer. Oh, Jesus. She walked, this just broke my heart. She walked because it was her only option with no money. She tried to walk all the way to Windsor to be there for him. And it's like crazy fast. In his last days, but she wasn't fast enough because it took so long. He died on Christmas Day, 1886, and apparently, and this is going to be something that's going to make you go, oh, his cause of death was cirrhosis of the liver from heavy and long-term drinking. I just don't know if you've ever heard this phrase. It's called the pot calling the kettle black, John.

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Now, I don't know what his drinking situation was. I don't know if he was drinking in the sense of like, he must have been like consistently drinking. Yeah. But I don't know what, how that was affecting his outside life at all. It seems like he was a functioning, you know what I mean? Yeah, but it's like, that's not fair that, that's just kind of shitty, but you can. It's truly what you said, pot calling the kettle black. Like, you're both struggling from the same thing, like. And you're shitting on her because she's just not as good as, good at it as you are. Exactly. It's, it's a tough situation because of course, it's like, back then, people were doing things when they were pregnant that they weren't supposed to be doing because not a lot was known about it.

• 2:06:41Speaker 01

  And it's just whatever. But, and obviously, a lot of bad choices are made here. No one's making correct choices here. I said it in part one. We're not going to find this thing where it's like, well, this person just has it all together. Like, no one had it together back then. No one really has it together anyway. It just wasn't going well. So it's like, sure, we can sit here and look at it and say, a lot, these women made a lot of bad choices. Yeah. Do any of them deserve the shit that they went through? Absolutely fucking not. No one does. Like, it's really shitty and I'd never want them to be portrayed as deserving of being. No. Of being put in the situations they were put in because once they made it to Whitechapel, there wasn't a lot of choices. They didn't really have a lot, a lot of chance.

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  And it's like, choices leading up to that, sure, could have been different in a lot of the situations, but not all of them. And just a side note question, you can die of cirrhosis of the liver and actually not drink, right? Like, cirrhosis of the liver can be caused by other things. Yeah, definitely can't. His was caused by heavy drinking. But I, I was like, did I hear that correctly? Like, I know, I know I've heard that. Yeah. So she was obviously devastated by his death. Because although they had a rocky relationship, I think that there was like love there. And they just couldn't function together is really the problem. She was devastated. She never recovered from it. And a lot of people said she lost a lot of her spark and her hope after that. There was a lot of guilt associated with his death, I think.

• 2:08:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  So now she turned to sex work to try to stay afloat because that's, I mean, I told you the numbers. There was an unbelievable amount of sex workers, like actively working in the city of Whitechapel. And it was either a full time gig because they had nothing else. And that's the only way they could afford lodging. Or it was a part time thing where they would do the dressmaking, laundrying, tailoring, crocheting, like anything like that. And then on the side, they would do it to supplement.

• 2:08:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:08:38Speaker 01

  It was very common.

• 2:08:39Speaker 02

  I mean, what else was there to do?

• 2:08:42Speaker 01

  And at this point, you know, even though this was an extremely dangerous and violent line of work to go into, she really had no choice.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And well, now, again, she doesn't have that money coming in from John.

• 2:08:54Speaker 01

  Exactly. So she, and I think she felt really hopeless. So I think it was like,

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's sad.

• 2:09:00Speaker 01

  She only wanted money to keep drinking and keep a roof over her head whenever she could, really. That was it. And she was often seen entertaining clients in Spitalfields and Whitechapel. Now, at this point, she started staying on Dun Dun Dun Dorset Street. It was in a Doss House, which we've already mentioned as being the worst and most violent street of them all.

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  Sure have.

• 2:09:20Speaker 01

  It was dangerous, horrific for her. And the money she earned from sex work only afforded her this and her constant flow of rum. That's it. She didn't, she really didn't care about much else.

• 2:09:29Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, she's lost her husband. She's lost her children. She's just like existing.

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  She's just floating through. A lot of them probably felt a little bit like ghosts just floating through the motions. This is when she began earning the nickname Dark Annie. Because as I said, when she drank, she got a little gnarly. She was pretty violent and angry when she drank. And her circumstances met with the guilt she felt about her children and John was not helping her drunken rages from occurring less.

• 2:09:56Speaker 02

  And then I just thought of too, her parents were alcoholics. She had a rough childhood, I'm sure. I'm sure she has a lot of years of trauma.

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  There's a lot of trauma happening here for sure. And it's just, it's, they're all sad stories. None of these stories are like, wow, this is a happy ending.

• 2:10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, they had everything going for them and then.

• 2:10:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the Doss House she was staying at was 35 Dorset Street at Crossing Hams, which was managed by a man named Timothy Donovan. He was not a nice guy, really.

• 2:10:24Speaker 02

  Shocking.

• 2:10:25Speaker 01

  It was a house licensed to shelter 144 people, but he crammed over 300 in there.

• 2:10:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  Now Ted Stanley, the pensioner, was still kind of controlling Annie at this point, but was not actually helping her at all.

• 2:10:38Speaker 02

  That's the thing. I'm like, you want to help her out, brother?

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  Every now and then he would pay her for her bed at the Doss House. But he actually told the man running the Doss House that if Annie brought another man in there, he had to throw her out.

• 2:10:49Speaker 02

  What the fuck?

• 2:10:51Speaker 01

  But he, and at first you'd be like, well, what?

• 2:10:53Speaker 02

  No, I know what his deal is.

• 2:10:55Speaker 01

  But he was seeing another woman named Eliza Cooper and paying for her bed, too.

• 2:10:58Speaker 02

  I had a feeling.

• 2:10:59Speaker 01

  Couldn't bother to let them stay with him, just let them stay in filth every once in a while on his dime. That's all he would do.

• 2:11:05Speaker 02

  What the fuck, dude?

• 2:11:06Speaker 01

  Now, around this time, toward the end of August, she ran into her brother Fountain on Commercial Road. She hadn't, he did not know how bad things had gotten. She was scared to tell him what she was going through, was embarrassed. So she kind of made it seem not all that bad. Like, I'm okay. I'm just like scrounging a little bit. He was kind and he gave her some money that he had in his pocket. The two of them sat down for a drink and that was it.

• 2:11:31Speaker 02

  That's like, just knowing what happens and what he had to go through after. That's heartbreaking.

• 2:11:36Speaker 01

  Now Ted Stanley and Eliza Cooper became a witness, became witnesses to Annie's last days, unfortunately. Ted told investigators he had seen her at the Britannia Pub on Dorset Street, September 2, 1888, with Eliza Cooper.

• 2:11:50Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:11:51Speaker 01

  Apparently they were not friends.

• 2:11:53Speaker 02

  I didn't think so.

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  Apparently, a couple of days before this, Annie had borrowed a piece of soap from Ted Stanley and it was meant for Eliza. And Eliza got pissed because Annie had promised to give it back, but didn't have it when Eliza confronted her. Annie threw a half penny at her and told her, here, buy some more. Like just tossed it at her.

• 2:12:13Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  So when they saw each other at the Britannia, they were both drunk and the familiar rage boiled up within them both. They immediately went after each other, screaming at each other. They were physically pushing each other, getting into each other's faces.

• 2:12:26Speaker 02

  And they're like, girls, the pensioner is not worth this at all.

• 2:12:30Speaker 01

  It was getting ugly. Witnesses said the fighting was continuous. It went back, all the way back to the Doss House they were fighting.

• 2:12:36Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 2:12:37Speaker 01

  Where Annie then slapped Eliza and Eliza lost it. She beat Annie badly and left her in bad condition.

• 2:12:45Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  Now, Annie's friend Amelia Farmer, who would later identify her body, saw her the next day after this. And she said she was horrified by her condition.

• 2:12:56Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  She had a black eye, a horribly bruised chest, and she was feeling really ill. Likely, my thoughts are from blows to the head. She was probably suffering from something. She said she couldn't eat anything and had only had a cup of tea that day. So Amelia gave her some money for more tea and then said, please take care of yourself and do not drink. She was like, do not spend this money on drink. And she said, buy yourself some tea.

• 2:13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:13:22Speaker 01

  So she told her, Annie said, sure, I'm going to go to Whitechapel Workhouse tonight. Like, I'll, I'll try to rest. And Amelia later said of Annie, quote, "I'm afraid she used to earn her living partly on the streets. She was a straightforward woman when she was sober, clever and industrious with the needle, but she could not take too much drink. She had been living a very irregular life all the time I've known her." Annie did return to Whitechapel Workhouse. And in return for a cold bath and some shitty stew, she was made to pick oakum, which is a very common thing that the poor were forced to do in these workhouses. She had to meticulously untangle old ship ropes.

• 2:14:01Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 2:14:02Speaker 01

  And then get them into like these strands that could be used. And it was murder on the hands and very intense work. It would like destroy your hands, just rip them apart.

• 2:14:11Speaker 02

  Probably bleeding by the end of it.

• 2:14:12Speaker 01

  So she saw her again that Friday, September 6, around 5:00 PM, after she had left the workhouse. And she said she was still feeling terrible. She told Amelia she didn't even feel well enough to go to Stratford to try to sell anything. She said she was trying to push through and said she was going to pull herself together and earn some money. Or she said, I'm going to be sleeping outside tonight.

• 2:14:33Speaker 02

  I wonder if she had like, my first thought was like, I wonder if she had a broken rib that caused internal bleeding or something?

• 2:14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, we find out. So by 7:00 PM, she went back to the Doss House and asked Timothy Donovan if she could just sit in the kitchen for a while.

• 2:14:47Speaker 02

  And he wouldn't let her, I bet.

• 2:14:48Speaker 01

  So she was like, I don't have money. I just need to sit. He did say yes.

• 2:14:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:14:53Speaker 01

  He said, yep, you can sit in there. She was seen in the kitchen by another lodger, Frederick Stevens, around 12, 10 AM. He referred to her as being, quote, "rather worse for drink." So I think she was like needing drink at this time.

• 2:15:06Speaker 02

  Oh, she's going through like withdrawal, probably.

• 2:15:08Speaker 01

  So a bit after this, another lodger named Williams said he saw her in the kitchen as well and chatted with her. He too said she was not doing well and that she had taken out a little paper box of pills from her pocket and it broke when she pulled it out. So the pills went everywhere and he helped her gather them. She found a scrap of envelope in the kitchen and put the pills in there and placed them back in her pocket. This is the envelope with the pills they found next to her body, mere hours after this. So, and she had gotten those pills apparently from the infirmary she had gone to. So they were, I think there was only two in there.

• 2:15:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:15:44Speaker 01

  She left after this and William said he thought she had gone to her bed, he was, she would normally sleep in, but instead she had left and come back around 1:35 AM. I think she had gotten a little bit to drink at that point. She hung out in the kitchen for a bit longer. And then around 2:00 AM, Timothy Donovan, Donovan, the Doss manager, who had known her for months, by the way, he kicked her out because she hadn't paid for a bed at 2:00 AM.

• 2:16:09Speaker 02

  Are you kidding me? It's like, just let her sleep in the kitchen even.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  That's the thing. She, and she told him how sick she was.

• 2:16:14Speaker 02

  You know her. Yeah.

• 2:16:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. She told him how sick she was, but he said he didn't give a shit and tossed her out.

• 2:16:21Speaker 02

  I think number one, he doesn't give a shit because he wants to make his money. But do you also think he maybe thought she was drunk and was just like, you gotta get out of here?

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  I think, yeah, he did. Well, I think all it was, I think it was black and white. You didn't pay for a bed? You don't get to stay here. Get out.

• 2:16:34Speaker 02

  That's so fucked up.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  And she told him, when she left, he said, he said, she told me, keep my bed open because I'm going to make my money and I'm going to sleep in it.

• 2:16:43Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  And he was like, all right. So at that point, the night guard, whose name was John Evans, said he saw her leave. He escorted her out of the Doss House around 1:45 AM. So she must have wandered around for hours looking for clients to make her money for lodging. At 5:30 AM, there was a confirmed witness report from a parkkeeper's wife, Elizabeth Long, who said she was on her way to the market at that time, and she spotted what she knew was Annie Chapman, speaking to a man next to a house on Hanbury Street. She said the man looked, quote, "like a foreigner." Not sure what that means. Yeah, right. And was wearing a deer stalker hat and looked to be over 40 years old.

• 2:17:22Speaker 01

  A deer stalker hat is that classic plaid type hat you see on like the Sherlock Holmes-y kinda guy. Hmm, I think I know what you mean. It's like a very, like, it's a very, it's very stereotypical of what you would think of when you see the hat with like the Sherlock Holmes-y kind of thing. So he was wearing one of those. That becomes a recurring thing, by the way. And she said that he asked her, "Will you?" And she said, "Yes." This was near the place Annie was found at 29 Hanbury Street. So this could have been Jack. Could have been Jack. So a few moments later, a man living next door to 29 Hanbury Street at number 27, said he heard panic and terror.

• 2:18:04Speaker 01

  His man, his name was Albert Kadosh, and he reported later that he heard screaming. Oh, jeez. He said, quote, "I live at 27 Hanbury Street, and I am a carpenter. 27 is next door to 29 Hanbury Street. On Saturday, September 8th, I got up about a quarter past 5:00 in the morning and went into the yard. It was then about 20 minutes past 5:00, I should think. As I returned towards the back door, I heard a voice say, 'No,' just as I was going through the door. It was not in our yard, but I should think it came from the yard of number 29. I went indoors, but returned to the yard about three or four minutes afterwards. While coming back, I heard a sort of fall against the fence, which divides my yard from that of 29.

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  It seemed as if something touched the fence hard and suddenly." Oddly, he just ignored it and went back to his shift for work. It's like you took the time to go back there and check to listen. Yeah. You heard something weird and you said, huh, that was weird. And he definitely heard her being murdered. I mean. He heard, he heard that. She was right next to the fence. That's where she was found. And she's being brutally attacked, clearly. Yeah. But I wonder if she couldn't make much noise because the windpipe. Cut her throat, exactly. So 6:00 AM rolls around and our friend John Davis stumbles upon the horrifically brutalized dead body of Annie Chapman. Now, when we began here, she was found in the yard of 29 Hanbury Street by John.

• 2:19:31Speaker 01

  The coroner had determined her throat had been so deeply cut, it had clearly been an attempt to remove her head completely from her body. And she had been violently and pretty theatrically disemboweled. Yeah. So after searching the area and finding the bloodstains on the fence above her, her wedding ring and a couple of other rings had been forcibly removed from her finger, the pocket in her skirt cut open, all those contents placed around her. Then they found that leather apron that was soaked in water. So after all of this, they finally took her body to Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary Mortuary. This was in Old Montague Street. This was a shed, essentially. Jesus. Shit was not great. No.

• 2:20:12Speaker 01

  Like, "How are you doing, Dr. Phillips?" "Not well, bitch," is what he would say. That's what he would say. He was not happy with his... A lot of these coroners were like, "Hey, guys, help. We have a pretty important job and you're not giving us like any shit to work with. Like, can we, somebody help us." But again, not shocking. Not at all. Annie was described as being about 48 years old. She was short, at about five feet. She was described as stout. She had dark hair that waved a bit, blue eyes, like I said, and two of her bottom teeth were missing. Okay. Now, when a proper examination was conducted of the body, now that it was stripped and washed, the condition was even more horrific than they thought. Her face and tongue was swollen.

• 2:20:57Speaker 01

  Now, this led him to believe there was some kind of suffocation before he attempted to move the head, because your tongue will protrude and swell. I didn't realize that. Yeah, so her eye especially had a massive bruise on it, and so did her chest. He was able to determine that the bruises on her chin and the sides of her jaw were recent and likely from the killer, but the chest and eye and temple bruising were from several days earlier. We know who. Good old Eliza. Bitch. So now, since the head of the Criminal Investigations Department, Robert Anderson, was now informed of what was happening back home. Oh, man. He was starting to get lightly trashed in the press for being away and not returning to stop this. I mean, yeah.

• 2:21:39Speaker 01

  After all, now we had Mary Ann Nichols and Annie Chapman murdered in similar and very brutal ways in his, in his jurisdiction. And there were arguments if there were two others. Exactly. At this point, the CID, which is tasked with investigating and stopping this spree, is effectively leaderless, leaderless at this point. Yeah. So when the inquest began two days later, even more horrific details were released. Now, they didn't release any of these into the papers. None of the papers had any kind of knowledge of these. But initially, Dr. Phillips didn't even want to release them to the, anything. He didn't want to talk about them. He didn't want them on the record. He had a good reason for this, and I understand what he was saying. He said the injuries and mutilations were so horrific that it would be, quote,

• 2:22:23Speaker 01

  "too painful to the feelings of the jury and public." He said, "I released to the cause of death, which was a severed carotid artery." He said, "Everything after that was gratuitous and does not have anything to do with the cause of death. All you need to know is the cause of death. You do not need to know what, anything after that." Oh. He was saying like, "We can have it on record, whatever, but I don't want it released to the public." Okay. I do understand where he was coming from with that, trying to save gratuitous details from being released that didn't cause the, her death. Yeah. But like, obviously you can't do that, because a lot of this has to do with the pathology of the killer, so... But at that time, that was not. Well, and they're probably worried about public terror at this point.

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  That's the thing. So at first, the inquest bros agreed, but then they said. The inquest bros. At first, they were like. I could not let that go. They were gonna, they were like, "Okay, yeah, that, we get that." But then they were like, "No, you need to come back and you need to tell us every single detail." Like, I, he's like, "I just need them. I need them all." They were like, "We gotta release these. We got, we're not gonna release them in the press, but we need to at least have them so that we can investigate from them." But before he agreed to tell them, he said, "Okay, fine, I will. I guess I have to." But he said, "I want every woman and any children that could be in the area to leave. I don't want them to be subject to any of this." He said, "This is not fit for publication in any media source." And it's not fit for women.

• 2:23:49Speaker 01

  It is not. So as he explained the following, and well, back then, it wasn't even like, "It's not fit for women." They were like, "Your constitutions are too delicate to hear such terrible things." Like, that was their way of like, "I'm trying to save the women and the children from hearing this horrific nightmare." Yeah, yeah. I get the children. As he explained the following, several men in the room actually fainted, so there's that. So foo foo on you. So this is what it said. It said, "Her neck was cut twice, one after the other, from left to right, and they were so deep that they cut into the vertebrae with a clear attempt to remove the head from the body." This is where it gets even wilder. Quote, "The abdomen had been entirely laid open, and the intestines severed from their mesenteric attachments,

• 2:24:34Speaker 01

  which had been lifted out and placed on the soldier's shoulder of the corpse, whilst from the pelvis, the uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina, and the posterior two-thirds of the bladder, had been entirely removed. Obviously, the work was that of an expert, or on at least who had such knowledge of anatomical or pathological examinations as to be enabled to secure the pelvis organs with one sweep of the knife." You could like feel that. So he said, "Those organs were removed from her body." In one sweep. Without jagged cuts, without a bunch of, just tearing through shit. And I can tell you. You can.

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  I can speak from some experience here that it is hard. They would tell you, "Okay, start the, start the cuts." And you would have to take a second to find that part of the colon that you want to start at. It was hard. And you would look in there with the spotlights of, of, you know, 2000s and whatevers, lab lights on here, all the technology that we have, all the lighting sources, everything that we have, that is hard. Yeah. It all looks the same when you open it up. It's all beige. It's all red. It's all goop together. It's everything. You don't just look in there and be like, "Well, that is the pelvis. That is, it's, that is the bladder. That's the uterus. These are the fallopian tubes." It's just a whole bunch of stuff.

• 2:26:00Speaker 01

  You find it, but it takes some time and it takes some skill. And knowledge. Observation, and it takes a lot of digging around and really finding where you're gonna cut, or else you're gonna be making a fucking mess of someone's insides, and no one wants to do that. And years of studying before you even get to the point where they hand you the knife to cut someone. Exactly. We still had books in the, in the autopsy suite, anatomy and pathology books, so that we could reference them if we needed to. It happens. But we're talking about 1888 in Whitechapel, where like I said, darkness is something you have not experienced until you were in 1888 Whitechapel.

• 2:26:37Speaker 02

  And he's not like pulling out his iPhone for the flash.

• 2:26:40Speaker 01

  He's not pulling out any kind of light source. If he does have a light source,

• 2:26:44Speaker 02

  It's a lantern.

• 2:26:44Speaker 01

  It's a lantern, which I don't think he had because no one said they saw anybody with a lantern. He's doing this in the fucking dark. He's doing this with no time at all to spare in haste, waiting for people to show up. I have all the time in the fucking world in the autopsy suite and it takes me a long fucking time. And to remove the pelvic block, that's hard.

• 2:27:06Speaker 02

  What is the pelvic block?

• 2:27:08Speaker 01

  That's what they're talking about with like the bladder, the pelvis, like the whole block of organs that are in your,

• 2:27:14Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 2:27:15Speaker 01

  Like even like the, you know, the thoracic block, like you're, they're all blocks of organs that usually you for an autopsy will take out altogether. You'll keep them all connected and you will lift them out of the body together.

• 2:27:27Speaker 02

  And he took them out separately?

• 2:27:28Speaker 01

  But in order to do that, you have to cut connections that you know exist. Otherwise you're just going to be slicing through most of these organs and fucking up the whole abdomen.

• 2:27:40Speaker 02

  How's that donut on your way to work though?

• 2:27:42Speaker 01

  So this guy, if he was able to take, what they're saying to me is,

• 2:27:48Speaker 02

  What they told me.

• 2:27:50Speaker 01

  What Dr. Phillips tells me here is that he took the uterus, its appendages and the upper portion of the vagina and posterior two thirds of the bladder.

• 2:28:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, you like didn't have to say that again.

• 2:28:03Speaker 01

  He took all of that. That's hard work to do and that's somebody that in my opinion, has at least a working knowledge of anatomy.

• 2:28:12Speaker 02

  I like have cramps all of a sudden, but it's not even that area of life.

• 2:28:16Speaker 01

  It's just, I don't understand, and maybe I'm standing on an island alone here. I know a lot of people will be like pish posh with the anatomy knowledge thing.

• 2:28:25Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:28:26Speaker 01

  No, because,

• 2:28:26Speaker 02

  No. You have to learn like very, very, very basic anatomy for, in hair school, actually.

• 2:28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:32Speaker 02

  It was even like basic, basic, basic anatomy, I could not wrap my brain around. Like that's intense.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  And it's just, I think unless you have taken part in a dissection and an evisceration and an autopsy, it's hard to understand the nuances and the small, tiny things that are involved in that. That you don't just rip organs out of somebody's body. You don't just like go, whoa, I see a uterus rip. Like that's not how that works.

• 2:28:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:29:00Speaker 01

  There are so many little connections that you have to make sure you cut before you take it out.

• 2:29:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I can appreciate that. I mean, like, I can't, I can't imagine if I, if you, if, even if the body was opened up for me and somebody told me like, where's the uterus? I'd be like, I have no fucking idea.

• 2:29:15Speaker 01

  It's hard to figure out.

• 2:29:17Speaker 02

  To the general area on me where it is, but like in a body, no fucking way.

• 2:29:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. And what's crazy, so the Dr. Phillips believed that this person, like I do, definitely had knowledge of the human body and anatomy.

• 2:29:29Speaker 02

  Had to have.

• 2:29:30Speaker 01

  It was one of those things that he believed couldn't have just been, like I said, somebody ripping organs out willy nilly.

• 2:29:35Speaker 02

  No way.

• 2:29:36Speaker 01

  I mean, they took the, they took part of the vagina, the upper portion of the vagina and part of the bladder.

• 2:29:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:29:41Speaker 01

  And they took the appendages from the uterus. They took the whole damn thing.

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  What does that mean?

• 2:29:46Speaker 01

  Like the fallopian tubes. They took the, you know, they took all of the stuff that goes along with your uterus, basically the reproductive system.

• 2:29:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was like, like a crude hysterectomy.

• 2:29:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. That's exactly a perfect way to say it.

• 2:29:57Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:29:58Speaker 01

  Now, especially also when you add on to this, that it was completed within the timeframe of about 15 fucking minutes.

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  Do you know how long a hysterectomy takes when you're?

• 2:30:07Speaker 01

  A hysterectomy takes hours.

• 2:30:09Speaker 02

  Oh, so this is insane.

• 2:30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And what's crazy, like I've done what's called rapid autopsies. Those are the middle of the night fairs, the ones that are 2:00 AM. Hey, come in and do this really quick. And a rapid autopsy, you're going in there, you have to, you're, you're kind of doing it in a less organized fashion. You need to get a tissue out quickly within two hours of death.

• 2:30:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:30:31Speaker 01

  Even with that,

• 2:30:33Speaker 02

  It's intense.

• 2:30:33Speaker 01

  You are taking a moment to figure out and like, kind of like orient yourself in the body, even just to take pieces of tissue from certain organs. In that 15 minutes, I, it would be a real challenge.

• 2:30:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:48Speaker 01

  Maybe if you set up a time clock for me and I, maybe I could do it, but I would have a lot of trouble and getting all that out.

• 2:30:56Speaker 02

  Luckily you would not have to, like,

• 2:30:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:30:57Speaker 02

  That's wild.

• 2:30:58Speaker 01

  But getting all that out in that amount of time, it would, it would be a challenge. So I don't think this is just like a leather worker.

• 2:31:05Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so at all. Rough estimate, like how long do you think it took him to do that? For him to like kill her, do all of that and then be out?

• 2:31:14Speaker 01

  They're thinking it was 15 minutes.

• 2:31:16Speaker 02

  15 minutes.

• 2:31:16Speaker 01

  They're thinking it was, it could be 15 minutes or less that he was doing these things in. One of them, I mean, we'll talk about Mary Jane Kelly, who's the last victim. He got to take his time with that one because,

• 2:31:26Speaker 02

  They were private.

• 2:31:26Speaker 01

  He was inside of somewhere and he really went for it. But the other ones, it was like, he was going quick because he had to get the hell out of there. Most of the time they would find them and they were warm.

• 2:31:38Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:31:38Speaker 01

  Like he was, he had just left. It's wild. Now, all of that said, what's even sadder, what they found out was that the cause of death was loss of blood from a severed carotid artery. She was actually actively dying before Jack the Ripper got to her. She was suffering from a disease that the doctor said was slowly killing her.

• 2:31:59Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:32:00Speaker 01

  It affected her brain and possibly her lungs. And the idea is that was, it was probably either syphilis or tuberculosis that she was suffering from.

• 2:32:09Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:32:10Speaker 01

  So she was in bad shape before. Now, the murder weapon was determined to be a knife that was likely long at around six to, six to eight inches and very sharp.

• 2:32:20Speaker 02

  Yikes.

• 2:32:20Speaker 01

  They thought the same thing for Mary Nichols.

• 2:32:22Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:32:23Speaker 01

  He pointed out that a slaughterhouse worker's knife would be possible for these injuries, but not a leather worker.

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:32:29Speaker 01

  So he was like, that's not saying they wouldn't have a knife like that. They just wouldn't use it for their trade.

• 2:32:34Speaker 02

  It's even crazy to me to think that he could have been a slaughterhouse worker though, because that anatomy is still different.

• 2:32:38Speaker 01

  It's different, but I guess maybe you have a little more.

• 2:32:42Speaker 02

  You have a leg up on somebody that has no knowledge of like an inside of a body, but it's a different kind of body.

• 2:32:49Speaker 01

  But again, these, these are very important things to point out because with these being such big trades in the area and everywhere, it was necessary to narrow the scope a little and be like, I don't think it's a leather worker. I think it's more of these people. So again, the coroner at the time said he was not even provided a map of the area. He wasn't provided anything that could, he could refer to again, to see where the body was positioned. They ignored his request for it. So he was just like, cool, I guess I'll go fuck myself then. Thanks guys.

• 2:33:18Speaker 02

  So irritating.

• 2:33:19Speaker 01

  Again, how you doing, Dr. Phillips? Not well bitch. Cause nobody's giving me anything to work with.

• 2:33:24Speaker 02

  He's trying to make it nice.

• 2:33:26Speaker 01

  I'm really on the side of coroners and I understand that, but like, that must be really fucking annoying. You're like, you need me.

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  They need him and they're not giving him any resources.

• 2:33:36Speaker 01

  You need me and you're not helping me out here. Now meanwhile, 29 Hanbury Street, where she was found, turned into kind of a tourist attraction because the people who lived there decided this was a business venture now. And they started charging people to come through the place where Annie was murdered and found.

• 2:33:51Speaker 02

  The past was fucked up.

• 2:33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:53Speaker 02

  The past was fucked up.

• 2:33:54Speaker 01

  And as was common back then, neighbors were charging people to look out their windows that looked over the yard as well.

• 2:34:00Speaker 02

  Past was fucked up.

• 2:34:01Speaker 01

  A little bit. So the inquest had brought up a lot of distaste for the way the case was being handled by witnesses and by the press.

• 2:34:08Speaker 02

  Gee whiz, I wonder why?

• 2:34:10Speaker 01

  A witness said during the inquest that when he came upon a police constable, when he found Chapman's body, so one of those men that he had grabbed, John Davis had grabbed. The police constable initially told him, he couldn't come. He had to go find someone else. So he was like, we might have found a dead body. And he was like, I can't move. I don't know what to tell you. This fucking police constable said, well, I have orders not to leave my post, no matter what. Apparently some police constables were not beat walkers, but they just were sitting at a fixed post. That was their job. They couldn't move, but no one was happy with this fucking excuse. They were like, dude, there's a dead body. I know you have orders, but like, maybe you can leave your post for that.

• 2:34:49Speaker 02

  That's a rock and a hard place.

• 2:34:51Speaker 01

  It is a very rock and a very hard place. I will, I will fully admit that.

• 2:34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:55Speaker 01

  But they were like not happy with it.

• 2:34:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. I can, and I, it's hard because on the outside you don't understand, like,

• 2:35:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:01Speaker 02

  Like what could happen if he leaves his post, you know?

• 2:35:03Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like is he leaving his post? Now that is leaving a post without a police there.

• 2:35:08Speaker 02

  And.

• 2:35:09Speaker 01

  Maybe that was Jack's intention all along was to get a police away from an area so he could cause more damage.

• 2:35:14Speaker 02

  Because I was going to say, the other thing is if he left his post and then like, he, like he might've gotten in trouble for that because Jack could have been walking by after killing her. So I get it.

• 2:35:22Speaker 01

  There's a lot, there's a lot of stuff.

• 2:35:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, rules.

• 2:35:24Speaker 01

  But that along with the like, not giving the coroner anything, they were like, can you?

• 2:35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta get mad at what you can get mad at and try to understand what you can.

• 2:35:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, Annie's brother Fountain paid for her funeral. But she was buried in a public grave in Manor Park Cemetery in Forest Gate, which meant people would be buried on top of her eventually. And her family was not allowed to put a headstone where she was.

• 2:35:48Speaker 02

  What the actual fuck?

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't treat,

• 2:35:52Speaker 02

  Death?

• 2:35:53Speaker 01

  People in poverty very well. So in 2008, the cemetery where she is buried, I mean, I was going to say they didn't, but like, or any, anywhere now, don't treat people in poverty very well.

• 2:36:05Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:36:05Speaker 01

  Still, so in 2008, the cemetery where she was, where she is buried, put a plaque where she's buried, like around the area. They don't know for sure exactly like the perfect spot.

• 2:36:15Speaker 02

  That's so sad.

• 2:36:16Speaker 01

  But it says, this plaque is dedicated to the memory of Annie Chapman, died 8th September, 1888. A victim of the infamous Jack the Ripper. Her remains are buried within this area. So at least you know the area. Now, Sir Charles Warren tried to calm the increasing panic that was starting to seep into Whitechapel, Spitalfields and beyond, with these horrific mutilation murders.

• 2:36:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:36:37Speaker 01

  And in doing so, he came off looking like an asshole at times for sure.

• 2:36:44Speaker 01

  Like September 15th, after two murders so heinous, they couldn't even be printed in full detail in the press, he dictated a memo to the home office in order to transfer the responsibility of the case into Donald Swanson's hand.

• 2:36:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:36:58Speaker 01

  He was like another detective because with Robert Anderson out, he was like, we have to give this to someone while he's not here, until he gets here. So Donald Swanson was who got it. The memo he wrote said, quote, "I am convinced that the Whitechapel murder case is one which can be successfully grappled with if it is systematically taken in hand." That's fine. Sure.

• 2:37:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:19Speaker 01

  "I go so far as to say, I could myself in a few days unravel the mystery if I could spare the time and give individual attention to it."

• 2:37:31Speaker 02

  Fuck off.

• 2:37:33Speaker 01

  Woof, my dude.

• 2:37:36Speaker 02

  Also, like, no, you couldn't.

• 2:37:39Speaker 01

  You didn't.

• 2:37:39Speaker 02

  You haven't.

• 2:37:40Speaker 01

  You didn't.

• 2:37:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:37:42Speaker 01

  You had many days. You did not do it.

• 2:37:44Speaker 02

  I could do it. I just didn't.

• 2:37:45Speaker 01

  You said it could be solved easily if someone gave a shit and had the time. That's literally what you just said. If someone gave a shit and gave the time to it, they could do it, but I don't.

• 2:37:54Speaker 02

  That's the Cliff Notes.

• 2:37:55Speaker 01

  I would just solve it in a few minutes, you know, but I don't have the time. So I guess you all have to suffer some more. Bye.

• 2:38:00Speaker 02

  Also, just like, this isn't a Sudoku puzzle. This is, these are people.

• 2:38:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, these are human beings. You should have stopped at the first part where you said it can, if systematically taken in hand, it can be solved. That's just hopeful. We love hope. If you can solve it in a few days, take a few days and solve it, fucker.

• 2:38:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:38:19Speaker 01

  We'll give you time off.

• 2:38:20Speaker 02

  It's a pretty dire situation.

• 2:38:22Speaker 01

  If I was on that, I would have been like, okay, Charles, take a few days off. Well, I'll take over for you. It's cool.

• 2:38:27Speaker 02

  What's your duties?

• 2:38:28Speaker 01

  I got it.

• 2:38:29Speaker 02

  A few days.

• 2:38:30Speaker 01

  You mean me, cover?

• 2:38:31Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 2:38:31Speaker 01

  See you back on Friday with who Jack the Ripper is. That would be great. Thanks.

• 2:38:35Speaker 02

  Like, why would you not?

• 2:38:36Speaker 01

  Like, come on.

• 2:38:37Speaker 02

  If we're gonna prevent women being found in the streets with their bowels wrapped around their shoulder, that's not important to you?

• 2:38:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:38:43Speaker 02

  What?

• 2:38:43Speaker 01

  So there was a little more to that memo, which makes it like a little better, I guess.

• 2:38:48Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:38:48Speaker 01

  That first part did not need to be put in there and it made him look like a jackass.

• 2:38:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he might have just been a jackass.

• 2:38:54Speaker 01

  So the next thing he wrote in the memo was, because he was trying to get it all organized now that Robert Anderson wasn't there. He said, "I feel therefore the utmost importance be attached to putting the whole central office work, in this case, in the hands of one man who will have nothing else to concern himself with." So he's saying, "I think it's important. We give it to somebody and tell them, this is all you're working on."

• 2:39:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:39:15Speaker 01

  Which, that makes sense. Why the fuck did you say the other, you don't need to, it was because, it was inserting his own fucking self-importance and ego into it by saying, "If I had it, I could do it, but I don't have the time." Shut the fuck up. All you had to do was write that next part and I would have been like, hell yeah, Charles Warren. But you had to insert that little fucking toxic shit into it and I don't appreciate it. I just spit, by the way.

• 2:39:39Speaker 02

  Spittlefields.

• 2:39:40Speaker 01

  Spittlefields everywhere. So it says, "Neither you or I or Mr. Williamson can do this. I therefore," you just said you could, but okay.

• 2:39:47Speaker 02

  That's the thing.

• 2:39:48Speaker 01

  "I therefore put it in the hands of Chief Inspector Swanson, who must be acquainted with every detail. I look upon him for the time being as the eyes and ears of the commissioner in this particular case. He must have a room to himself and every paper, every document, every report, every telegram must pass through his hands. He must be consulted on every subject. I would not send any directions anywhere on the subject of the murder without consulting him. I give him the whole responsibility. All the papers in central office on the suspect, subject of the murder must be kept in his room and plans of the positions, et cetera. I must have this matter at once put on a proper footing so as to be a guide for the future in cases of importance."

• 2:40:31Speaker 01

  So he's saying, here's what we need to do. Put Swanson on the case. He's in charge of the, of the CID right now.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:39Speaker 01

  He has to be acquainted with every piece of this case. He's the one working solely on it. And we're gonna look at this as a blueprint for future cases. This is how we should do it.

• 2:40:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:40:50Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 2:40:50Speaker 02

  They don't do that, though.

• 2:40:52Speaker 01

  You know, so with, you know, so at this point, like I said, Anderson is still in Switzerland. He has not come home yet. Sir Charles Warren had to put the investigation into Donald Swanson's hands. Now, locally, he put Inspector Frederick George Aberline in charge of the air. So he was locally in charge. So again, overall, Swanson, local shit being taken care of on a more micro level by Aberline. A lot of people think Aberline was in charge of the entire thing. He's often touted as being in charge of the entire thing. That's not true. He did, however, do a ton of work for it and is synonymous with that for good reason. He really did do a lot.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:41:33Speaker 01

  He did kind of take over in a way. He tried really hard from the outset to catch this guy. So September 10th, only a couple of days later, a guy named John Pizer was finally found after he had gone on the run after being named a person of interest. You might remember a man named Leather Apron that I mentioned in part one. That is him. Finally got him. Timothy Donovan, who managed the lodging house that Annie Chapman stayed at, told police he and another witness had actually thrown Pizer out of the lodging house on several occasions because he had attacked and threatened women. And that they had saw him wearing a deer stalker hat several times, which is what witnesses like Mrs. Long saw the man last seen with Annie Chapman was wearing as well.

• 2:42:18Speaker 02

  But you said this guy's a leather worker.

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  He's a leather worker. Now, Pizer, when they checked his home, he had up to five long-bladed knives in his possession in his home on Mulberry Street.

• 2:42:30Speaker 02

  Clean or dirty?

• 2:42:32Speaker 01

  No, nobody says.

• 2:42:33Speaker 02

  Flame.

• 2:42:34Speaker 01

  I imagine not dirty with blood, because they probably would have mentioned that.

• 2:42:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:37Speaker 01

  He was a boot finisher, so that wasn't completely ridiculous that he would have several knives, but it's still something. He was brought in and everyone went wild over it. They thought Leather Apron was the guy.

• 2:42:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:42:49Speaker 01

  Because the media had really put it up there.

• 2:42:51Speaker 02

  And they're desperate.

• 2:42:52Speaker 01

  In fact, right after he was arrested, according to Ripper Code, the book that I will also, I will also link, what is it called, link in the show notes. They were distributing a broad street out in the, a broad sheet out in the streets, is what I meant. That said, quote, "They've captured Leather Apron now. If guilty, you'll agree. He'll have to meet a murderer's doom and hang up on a tree." Cute, right?

• 2:43:17Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, no, bah, ooh.

• 2:43:19Speaker 01

  It's a lot. So newspapers branded him the killer. It was bad.

• 2:43:23Speaker 02

  Not fair.

• 2:43:23Speaker 01

  They were literally like, here he is. That's him, guys. There's no evidence, but he's gonna be charged and sentenced in the press. It's like, yeah, he's a shithead.

• 2:43:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  He, there's literally no evidence to say he's the killer at all.

• 2:43:36Speaker 02

  This is not okay.

• 2:43:36Speaker 01

  Except he has a hat that several other people also have. Now.

• 2:43:40Speaker 02

  When you put it that way.

• 2:43:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, a lot of, a lot was made of the fact that he also made hats on the side and that Polly Nichols had been walking around talking about and showing off her new black velvet bonnet.

• 2:43:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:43:52Speaker 01

  That is a thing.

• 2:43:54Speaker 02

  But that's a real fucking circumstantial.

• 2:43:56Speaker 01

  Well, she didn't get it. Did she get it that day? She was seen with it in the last, like, day or so.

• 2:44:01Speaker 02

  Couple of days, yeah.

• 2:44:03Speaker 01

  So it was new. It was something that they were, you know.

• 2:44:06Speaker 02

  All right. I get it.

• 2:44:07Speaker 01

  Because I think she said to somebody, like, um, like, "Do you see my jolly bonnet?" Like, "It's brand new." Like, and it was new. So that was one of the last things. Interesting. Now, around the same time, Aberline brought in a man named William Piggott to be questioned. He had blood on his clothing and he was seen sink, um, sitting, drinking a beer at a pub in Gravesend when the police were called because they were like, this guy's just sitting, drinking a beer and he's literally covered in blood, like his clothes had blood all over them.

• 2:44:34Speaker 02

  Real weird.

• 2:44:35Speaker 01

  He was also behaving very strangely and acting very nervous and anxious. Aberline arrested him and was shocked when he saw him because he said he was struck by, obviously, the blood on his clothes, but also by the fact that he had a very close resemblance to a man who witnesses said they heard ranting and raving about hating women in a public house in Whitechapel very shortly after Annie Chapman's murder.

• 2:44:56Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:44:57Speaker 01

  When they got him to the station, he said he had been in Whitechapel and he said he was on Brick Lane when he saw a woman having a fit and she fell to the ground. He was obviously a hero and he tried to pick her up, but she bit him, he said, on the hand. So his response was to slap her in the face and drop her on the ground.

• 2:45:15Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 2:45:16Speaker 01

  And then he said he left because he saw police coming their way.

• 2:45:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:45:20Speaker 01

  No one confirmed this. There's no, we don't know who that woman was.

• 2:45:24Speaker 02

  If she bit him on the hand, it could have been Annie.

• 2:45:26Speaker 01

  It could have been.

• 2:45:26Speaker 02

  She was feisty.

• 2:45:27Speaker 01

  Now, he had a ton of injuries on his hands and he was covered in blood, including some which had clearly been attempted to be wiped from his boots. He never explained this and they never got an explanation for it.

• 2:45:39Speaker 02

  Who, they didn't ask him, hey, whose blood is this?

• 2:45:41Speaker 01

  No, they did. He just never, he wouldn't answer.

• 2:45:43Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:45:44Speaker 01

  And witnesses said he wasn't the guy. Witnesses saw him. He was never picked out of several lineups. Everybody, they were, and when they were brought to him.

• 2:45:52Speaker 02

  It was dark.

• 2:45:52Speaker 01

  Witnesses were like, that's not him. That's not him at all. Like, they were very, like, black and white. That's not him.

• 2:45:58Speaker 02

  And the leather worker thing, you know?

• 2:45:59Speaker 01

  But he was held a bit to see if they could get someone else to ID him because they were like, this is weird.

• 2:46:04Speaker 02

  Or get him to crack you then.

• 2:46:05Speaker 01

  But during that time, he got so erratic and he was slurring his words and like, was actually freaking out. So they sent for a doctor and he was actually sent to an asylum shortly after because he was declared legally insane.

• 2:46:17Speaker 02

  From disemboweling a woman?

• 2:46:19Speaker 01

  Well, obviously, he didn't do any of the other murders because he was in, in an asylum when all the other ones happened. But why was he covered in blood? We never know.

• 2:46:29Speaker 02

  And why did he just go insane?

• 2:46:31Speaker 01

  We never find out. That's, that guy's William Piggott's just like, bye. See you later.

• 2:46:36Speaker 02

  Huh. Question. I don't know if this is a dumb question. Leather workers, obviously, we unfortunately get leather from animals. Did they have to, like, get the skin from the animals themselves or was it provided to them?

• 2:46:48Speaker 01

  I actually don't know that.

• 2:46:49Speaker 02

  Because then I guess you could have, you're not like, you know?

• 2:46:53Speaker 01

  I imagine leather workers probably, it's a symbiotic relationship probably with, uh,

• 2:46:57Speaker 02

  The slaughterhouses.

• 2:46:58Speaker 01

  Slaughterhouses and other, you know, that kind of line of work. Maybe, but I do not know for sure.

• 2:47:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 2:47:04Speaker 01

  I'll find out for part three.

• 2:47:06Speaker 02

  Cool. Thank you.

• 2:47:07Speaker 01

  But we'll leave it on Pizer. John Pizer, Leather Apron there. He was let go pretty quickly because there was literally no evidence and his alibi was confirmed that he had been with family during Annie Chapman's murder. He had an alibi also saying that he was staying at the Crossman's Common Lodging House on the night of Nichols murder.

• 2:47:26Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:47:26Speaker 01

  There was a fire by the docks that evening and he saw it and he had spoken to several people that night while it was happening. So he was completely cleared of everything, but he was pissed about his name being smeared in the press. He took action and actually sued a bunch of papers for libel because once you're cleared, you can sue for libel if they said you were the guy. He was asked a lot about why he actually went on the run because they were like, well, why'd you go on the run when you were named a person of interest? Why wouldn't you just come in and say, "I didn't do it" and give your alibi? And he said, quote, "I will tell you the reason why. I should have been torn to pieces." And that's all he would say about it. He was like, I, I would have been torn to pieces if I came out in the daylight after they had named me. And he was like, it's because you guys named me.

• 2:48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:10Speaker 01

  And if I had come out, people would have just, it would have been a mob of people like taking justice into their own hands.

• 2:48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:48:18Speaker 01

  So he was never charged. He was just arrested, taken in and let go immediately. And they are back to square one. And very shortly after this, there is going to be what is known as the double event.

• 2:48:32Speaker 02

  The double event.

• 2:48:33Speaker 01

  The double event. And Robert Anderson is still not going to be home for it.

• 2:48:37Speaker 02

  Honey, you gotta come home.

• 2:48:39Speaker 01

  Switzerland is nice, but it's time to wrap it up.

• 2:48:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, yeah.

• 2:48:43Speaker 01

  What we'll see is he eventually, he travels to Paris to be closer to the stuff. And then he had, he does eventually come home.

• 2:48:50Speaker 02

  I'm like, get out of Paris, buddy. You gotta come down to London.

• 2:48:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:53Speaker 02

  Come home.

• 2:48:54Speaker 01

  Doctor's orders, schmokter's orders. You gotta come back.

• 2:48:57Speaker 02

  No, your mental health is important. So.

• 2:48:59Speaker 01

  It is, but like, this is pretty big.

• 2:49:00Speaker 02

  It is. And it's your job. You gotta like shit or get off the pot. Leave for your mental health. I get that. Or just stay and ruin it.

• 2:49:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's like, when this is happening, like, a lot of people are counting on the police to like, get it together here.

• 2:49:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:13Speaker 01

  But yeah, that is the story of Annie Chapman.

• 2:49:16Speaker 02

  That, that one, I mean, they're all horrifically sad, but that one, just like from start to finish, like, and I feel like a lot of times in these stories too, you get these little, little glimmers of hope where they kind of start to get it together. Like even Polly went back and stayed with her husband for a little bit and things were okay. And then it just went to shit again.

• 2:49:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a lot of ebbs, like you said, ebbs and flows of happy, sad, happy, sad. Not even happy, really, just like content, sad, content, sad. And it's like, there really never gets to happiness anywhere.

• 2:49:45Speaker 02

  I don't know if there really was happiness. If you like, actually, I do know there was no happiness if you were poor.

• 2:49:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was really.

• 2:49:51Speaker 02

  Which is really fucked up. Society is the worst.

• 2:49:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's pretty rough.

• 2:49:55Speaker 02

  Are we working so hard?

• 2:49:57Speaker 01

  Next one, you were going to talk about the double event. Going to get into that. We'll get into more of the police shenanigans. Um, maybe we'll talk about ghosts some more because why the hell not? And.

• 2:50:07Speaker 02

  Cause if you have ghosts, then you have everything.

• 2:50:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:50:09Speaker 02

  And if, um, and we, and we, and we hope that you keep listening.

• 2:50:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, please do. There's a lot more to come with this.

• 2:50:22Speaker 02

  We are on part three of the Jack the Ripper series, and I'm questioning your psyche at this point.

• 2:50:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, this has been a, this has been the longest research I've done.

• 2:50:36Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:50:36Speaker 01

  Cause I started much earlier than I normally do with research.

• 2:50:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:40Speaker 01

  Cause I knew it was going to be a very daunting, very intricate kind of thing. Uh, but I feel like I have been in Whitechapel in the 1800s for literally like months at this point.

• 2:50:52Speaker 02

  You essentially have. Elena has, um, a whole casual 40 pages between parts one and three.

• 2:50:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm nowhere near done.

• 2:51:01Speaker 02

  And she's, yeah, like, yeah.

• 2:51:04Speaker 01

  I'm only on the double event here. I'm not even through, I'm not even through all of the cases here.

• 2:51:10Speaker 02

  You get like more, like Drew is a Capricorn, but I'm like, no, you're not. Cause like you are just, uh, you are just like the epitome of a cap, like every part of Capricorn energy, like you have all of it.

• 2:51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I really, uh, I really like, I lean into my sign really hard. I don't even mean to. It really is who I am. It's that, that fucking, that solar system that was happening when the, the, whatever configuration it was in when I was born, it was real powerful in that moment because I got every ounce of it.

• 2:51:43Speaker 02

  It was intense. Well, you also have Virgo in your chart, which I think only makes you a more intense person when it comes to work. So.

• 2:51:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:51:50Speaker 02

  Listen to me.

• 2:51:52Speaker 01

  Look at you.

• 2:51:53Speaker 02

  I know a couple of signs.

• 2:51:55Speaker 01

  You're like, I know some stuff about astrology.

• 2:51:59Speaker 02

  I drink things and I know things.

• 2:52:01Speaker 01

  There you go. Oh, I miss Game of Thrones. Speaking of.

• 2:52:04Speaker 02

  I miss Game of Thrones so much. Imagine if they redid the last season.

• 2:52:08Speaker 01

  Imagine.

• 2:52:09Speaker 02

  Imagine if they just like said, oops, we were kidding.

• 2:52:11Speaker 01

  Imagine if they made it good at the end.

• 2:52:13Speaker 02

  That'd be fun.

• 2:52:14Speaker 01

  That'd be awesome. You know what? Speaking of good shows though, like actually good shows, I just started and I realize I'm very behind the curve because what I didn't realize was that this show that I'm about to talk about, Peaky Blinders, in case you were wondering, it came out in like 2013.

• 2:52:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was still in high school.

• 2:52:32Speaker 01

  Still happening.

• 2:52:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:33Speaker 01

  They just like really draw out those seasons.

• 2:52:35Speaker 02

  I didn't realize that until recently either. That's funny that you brought that up.

• 2:52:39Speaker 01

  I had no idea. And I know I've been wanting to watch it since 2013, but it's been one of those that I'm like, yeah, I'll watch that. And then I just haven't. But last night we were like, oh, all of our shows are kind of like.

• 2:52:50Speaker 02

  Floating.

• 2:52:51Speaker 01

  Just floating or like they're week to week. And we've already like, you know, cause we, we only have precious few moments to watch shows at night when the kids are asleep. So we're like, what do we do? Let's make a choice.

• 2:53:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:53:01Speaker 01

  And last night, John was like, should we start another one? And I was like, Peaky Blinders, let's do it.

• 2:53:06Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:53:06Speaker 01

  And we did it. And I realized that not only is this show fucking awesome, and I'm so excited to be completely entrenched in it, but two, it takes place around the same time period of this in the same place.

• 2:53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, like only like 30 or 40 years after.

• 2:53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not that far off. And it's like, definitely got the vibe. And I was watching it last night being like, I cannot escape this. I am just not helping myself at all. Like no escapism for me.

• 2:53:32Speaker 02

  Oh, I am like an escape artist when it comes to like walking away from, I have to, like, in order to sleep and like function, I have to.

• 2:53:42Speaker 01

  It wasn't great on my, on my, uh, on your dreams last night wasn't great because it was very like intertwined with like the Catherine Eddo's one that I'm going to talk about today. And it was a lot.

• 2:53:54Speaker 02

  I can't research at night anymore.

• 2:53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 2:53:56Speaker 02

  Like for that reason. And I, you know me, I'm like a very like spiritual, like spiritual lady. So if I get weird dreams, that throws me off for like my whole day. And then you know, I'll just like start crying in the middle of the day for no reason.

• 2:54:09Speaker 01

  I will say that, um, if you have no other reason to watch it, watch it for Killian Murphy.

• 2:54:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:54:15Speaker 01

  Uh, that's what I was in it for.

• 2:54:16Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 2:54:17Speaker 01

  The time period, of course, and Killian Murphy were like big selling points to me.

• 2:54:21Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:54:22Speaker 01

  And they, they gave, they gave me everything I needed. I've been like a Killian Murphy head since like 28 days later, which I realized came out when Ash was like five. And that took me for a ride.

• 2:54:35Speaker 02

  Which means that you, I think I was like six. So you were 16.

• 2:54:38Speaker 01

  So 16 year old Elena was standing.

• 2:54:41Speaker 02

  So funny to think that would like, cause now I like, obviously we're 10 years apart always. Like that's how time works.

• 2:54:47Speaker 01

  That is how time works.

• 2:54:48Speaker 02

  It's funny because I don't feel that far away from you in age anymore. So hearing that like you were 16 when I was six, I'm like, that doesn't line up.

• 2:54:56Speaker 01

  No. And when you get older, the time difference doesn't, it's not that big of a deal anymore.

• 2:55:01Speaker 02

  Like, like, yeah, older dudes and older ladies can date younger dudes and ladies later on in life. And it's not so weird, but.

• 2:55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. It just like, the time difference just doesn't make as much of a difference.

• 2:55:11Speaker 02

  Cause you're not as like in such a different form of your life anymore. Like we're both in like very, I mean, even still, we're in very different, but like very similar faces.

• 2:55:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:55:20Speaker 02

  And that's our life.

• 2:55:21Speaker 01

  And that is our life, everyone. So go watch Peaky Blinders if you haven't. And if you have, which I know a lot of you have, cause I tweeted about it, like the, when I was watching it and everybody was like, oh my God, I love that show.

• 2:55:31Speaker 02

  People are obsessed.

• 2:55:33Speaker 01

  I'm here. I'm ready to talk to you about it. And I'm excited to be here. So.

• 2:55:37Speaker 02

  I just started Desperate Housewives. So we're in different places. Me and Drew are watching Desperate Housewives. I mean, I don't even, I think, I think Desperate Housewives came out when I was probably like five.

• 2:55:50Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 2:55:51Speaker 02

  So it's funny to watch now. It's also like, sometimes you're like, oh, you could say that back then.

• 2:55:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's always that.

• 2:55:56Speaker 02

  But that show is good.

• 2:55:58Speaker 01

  I never watched that.

• 2:55:59Speaker 02

  I don't think you would like it.

• 2:56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, never really was something I wanted to watch, but I'm glad you are.

• 2:56:04Speaker 02

  Thanks. I'm glad you're watching Peaky Blinders. I, that's something I do want to eventually watch. I'm just not there yet.

• 2:56:10Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 2:56:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's our TV schedule.

• 2:56:13Speaker 01

  That's our TV sketch, guys. So I'm excited to watch Peaky Blinders with you guys. Hopefully somebody else, I think a couple of people were like, I'm going to start it too now. And I was like, hell yeah, let's all start it together.

• 2:56:22Speaker 02

  Be in this together.

• 2:56:23Speaker 01

  Let's go for it. Uh, and it's basically just going to get me until Stranger Things two. Like it's one of those, like, I needed a good show that was going to get me back to the next Stranger Things.

• 2:56:35Speaker 02

  Cause that is going to take like years to come out, right?

• 2:56:37Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 2:56:39Speaker 02

  Is that, is that how it usually works though?

• 2:56:40Speaker 01

  That is, but we'll see.

• 2:56:42Speaker 02

  It's like euphoria. I'm in a place of freaking, I just feel alone in the world without.

• 2:56:47Speaker 01

  And I feel like, yeah, you're not alone with euphoria. I know that. Cause a lot of people watch that.

• 2:56:53Speaker 02

  Oh no. I mean, I feel alone in the world that like it's not here. Like we're all alone in this together.

• 2:56:58Speaker 01

  I was going to say, you're suffering together.

• 2:57:00Speaker 02

  We are immensely.

• 2:57:01Speaker 01

  So there you go.

• 2:57:02Speaker 02

  All right. Uh, this is, uh, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna get into it today. She says apprehensively.

• 2:57:13Speaker 01

  I, yeah, I, yep, I do. Because these, this is going to get rougher and rougher. From here on out, it's going to get like so bad. Yeah. So bad. It's been really bad.

• 2:57:26Speaker 02

  It has.

• 2:57:27Speaker 01

  It's getting so bad. I mean, one of these is one of the most horrific scenes I've ever read about.

• 2:57:34Speaker 02

  I'm glad that I'm not going into this blindly. I can't imagine going into a case like this.

• 2:57:38Speaker 01

  Having no idea.

• 2:57:39Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:57:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Even, even so, um, I think when you hear details, you're going to be like, oh.

• 2:57:45Speaker 02

  Oh, that's already happened for sure. And I can see that coming up next.

• 2:57:49Speaker 01

  This is a rough one. And, um, the next one we'll talk about in part four is of course the, the very infamous Mary Jane Kelly scene, which I think a lot of people have seen that photograph. I forgot that that photograph existed until all of a sudden I was like, oh, that is a real thing. And that's a real person. And that's a real thing that happened.

• 2:58:09Speaker 02

  Tucked into like the back of your head and then you remember.

• 2:58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we'll be talking about, um, Mary Jane Kelly in part four, but today we're going to be talking about the double event, which is when he killed twice in one night, very close to each other. We're going to talk about it. I have a lot of theories. I have a lot of questions. I have a lot of like, hmm. So let's get into it. Let's do it. Shall we? We shall. So we just, the last time we, when we left you, we were talking about how John or Jack Peiser Leather Apron, he had been brought in, but he had been cleared. Had like multiple alibis. And he said, I didn't come forward when, when my name was first brought up, I went on the run because I thought people were going to hang me without even wondering whether I actually did it or not. Because the media had like put it out way too soon.

• 2:58:56Speaker 01

  Which, fair, because it probably would have happened because there were several times when people thought that police were bringing in a suspect of Jack, which at this point, he's just called the Whitechapel murderer, or the mutilation series they were calling it. He isn't even Jack yet. He hasn't even named himself yet. We haven't even got there. Oh, I know. We haven't even gotten to the letters because they haven't come yet. This part or next part? It's going to be next part. Okay. But that's when we're going to talk about the letters, him naming himself, like the, whether we think it's a hoax or not, those letters, the different suspects, the different theories, the different ins and outs, and, and also Mary Jane Kelly. But for this one, Leather Apron's been cleared, but the last victim was Annie Chapman, and

• 2:59:40Speaker 01

  Whitechapel has lost their collective shit after this. I mean, it was, Annie Chapman's murder was horrifying. There are still some discrepancies as to her time of death, though that were kind of complicating the investigation. Because at this point, they're just trying to get anything they can, because they know that, see, these are connected. Right. They don't know when the next one's going to hit. They're trying to stop it before it hits, and they don't have a lot to work with. So Dr. Phillips, Dr. Bagstrip Phillips, our guy. Love it. Our guy. He had stated that when he saw Annie Chapman at 6:30 a.m., he believed that she had been dead for about two hours. Okay. But if we put that next to the witness accounts that morning, it doesn't really

• 3:00:24Speaker 01

  make sense. So someone must have been off. That, so there was a man named John Richardson, who lived at 29 Hambury Street where the murder occurred, and the body was discovered outside in that yard. And he said he came out into the yard at 4:45 a.m., and he did not see a body. Now, if you walked out into that yard, she was right there. You weren't going to miss her. Definitely see her. Albert Kadosh heard someone yell, no, we talked about him, at 5:25 a.m. And then at 5:28 a.m., he said he heard someone fall against the fence between his yard at 27 Hambury Street and 29 Hambury. But then, we have Mrs. Elizabeth Long's witness account.

• 3:01:08Speaker 01

  She was the first one that I talked about in the last episode, that she saw Annie Chapman with a man who, quote, "looked like a foreigner." Yup. In a deer stalker hat. We were like, what does that mean? And I'm like, what exactly does that mean, Elizabeth? But that was at 5:30 a.m. Huh. So remember, Albert Kadosh said at 5:25, he heard no. Right. He heard someone fall at 5:28, and now Elizabeth Long's saying at 5:30, two minutes later, she sees Annie Chapman just talking to this guy, before even going into the yard. That is the problem with eyewitness accounts. Exactly. So Dr. Phillips' estimate of death is already shot to shit. If he, he came at 6:30 and said she was already dead two hours ago, but an hour ago, she was talking to someone. Or was she?

• 3:01:54Speaker 01

  So that doesn't make any sense. And also, now we have to question how Mrs. Long could have seen her at all. Like, have she really seen her? Because who's off here? Yeah. Albert Kadosh, which I, I'm thinking Albert might be the one that's off. I think Elizabeth Long did see her. Oh, you think so? And I think she saw her at that time, because she did mention something about hearing the clock chime. Okay. Again, she could be off. She could have. Was the clock off? Because Albert may have just been off by 15 minutes, because that's not that crazy to think about, that like, he was like, oh, it was 5, you know, 20, whatever, when I heard it. Maybe he heard the clock chime too, and he got the wrong, like, amount of

• 3:02:38Speaker 01

  chimes. Maybe he looked at something and thought it was this time. I feel like he's a little more off than Elizabeth Long. I could see that. Because Elizabeth Long was like, very adamant. Right. The clock chimed, 5:30, I heard it, I looked at her, I know that's her, she was talking to this guy. And it's a little different too, because she's probably like, out and about going somewhere, and we can assume maybe she had to be there at a certain time. Exactly. Whereas he's coming home and just kind of like, is at home. Yeah, he doesn't have, I don't think he had anything that he was like, really thinking about doing. So she was on her way to the markets, I think the Spitalfield Market, so she actually had somewhere that she had to be. So I think time was more of like, at

• 3:03:17Speaker 01

  the essence to her. Now, of course, nailing time of death is hard even today. So there are a lot of factors, and back then, it was just like, way jankier. They just like threw a dart at a dartboard of times. They were like, sure, this works. But Dr. Phillips did acknowledge that the massive blood loss paired with the cold air that morning she was killed, definitely could have fucked up his estimate too. So he wasn't sitting there saying like, two hours for sure. He was just saying, I think. He was like, within two hours, I think. And he was saying, all of those elements could have fucked up my estimate. I am not holding myself to it. So not even he was holding himself to it. Okay. But still, it didn't really help with the investigation that much. And besides,

• 3:03:58Speaker 01

  besides all this, there was this weird obsession for a bit, where police were assuming this killer was an escaped inmate from an asylum. I could see why they would think that, because of the brutality, but why else? See, and that's the thing. So it's weird to me, it's wild to me, actually, that they assumed that, at any point, that this person was insane. Because the care and the meticulousness with which these murders were carried out does not ring as someone in the throes of insanity, or someone who is not a sane clinically person could do. It rings, to me, very evil and very focused. And like knows what they're doing. Which doesn't feel. Calculated.

• 3:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't feel like somebody escaped from an asylum. This had the Metropolitan Police Force concentrating for a long period of time on escaped or recently released asylum patients. And to me, it feels like a massive waste of time. I think that was like, real dumb. Also, just really using people like that as scapegoats. That's right. Oh, yeah. That was like, it was a very low hanging fruit. Yeah. And they went like, really hard at it for a while. And I was like, guys, you gotta stop. Yeah. It's not there. Right. It's not there. This is like, a way, this is not a careless person. So then, this crazy theory popped up, and I just had to talk about it, because I was like, what? This is called the American doctor theory. Now, this theory came about when the coroner, which

• 3:05:23Speaker 01

  this coroner in particular, that I'm going to talk about, Wyn Baxter, was not a medical doctor. So he was not Dr. Wyn Baxter. He was a voted in coroner. Huh. He mentioned during Annie Chapman's inquest on September 26, 1888, that he believed, and I quote, "It was someone who had considerable anatomical knowledge and skill. There were no meaningless cuts. The organ has been taken away by one who knew where to find it, what difficulties he would have, have to contend against, and how he should use his knife so as to abstract the organ without injury to it. No unskilled person could know where to find it, or have recognized it when it was found," which I agree. But he then followed

• 3:06:07Speaker 01

  this up by saying he knew and believed that there was a market for these types of organs. The black market. And he relayed a story that recently, the sub curator, recently at that point, the sub curator of the Pathological Museum told him that a few months earlier, an American had called him up on the phone and asked him if he could buy some specimens, because he said he was writing a paper that was about to be published, and he was going to be sending, he wanted to like, send specimens to some of these places. The curator was like, no, we can't do that. We're not in that business. And this American, who's like, they're claiming was a doctor, medical student, said he would pay a ton of money for them. And he had already made this request to another

• 3:06:51Speaker 01

  institution, apparently, he said. Now, Wyn Baxter then suggested on the record that maybe someone had heard about this random American who was allegedly requesting to buy specimens from the Pathological Museum, for a pretty penny at that, and that this person who heard this took it upon themselves to procure some of those specimens to sell to him, because heard you can make a lot of money, I'm going to get some of these. Okay. I'm sorry. No, my good sir.

• 3:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07:24Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 3:07:25Speaker 02

  I was like, okay.

• 3:07:26Speaker 01

  No. And he said this on the record, which of course is going to get everybody like going crazy.

• 3:07:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07:31Speaker 01

  This doesn't make any sense. No, no. In so, no, no, no, no. In response to this, The Lancet, which was a weekly medical journal, published, um, that they like published details of the cases, but they were the only ones who had published details because they were a medical journal. Uh, they published a warning and they were very dissatisfied with Baxter's theory. They said, quote, "In our opinion, a grave error in judgment was made by the coroner's informant in this respect. The public mind," which also, can I just say, this is so relevant to now? Like, when you read this, you're like, wow, we haven't changed.

• 3:08:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:08:09Speaker 01

  "The public mind, ever too ready to cast much, uh, uh, excuse me, ever too ready to cast mud at legitimate research, hmm, will heartily fail to be excited to a pitch of animosity against anatomists and curators, which may take a long while to subside."

• 3:08:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's still, we're still working on it.

• 3:08:31Speaker 01

  Still doing that. And what is equally deplorable, the revelation thus made by the coroner, which so dramatically startled the public last Wednesday evening, may probably lead to a diversion from the real track of the murderer and thus defeat rather than serve the ends of justice. "We believe the story to be highly improbable, although it may have a small basis of fact, which will require the exercise of much common sense to separate from the sensational fiction that surrounds it." So essentially it was a bull bullshit theory. He repeated this story. He had no proof of this. There was no, like, it was ridiculous.

• 3:09:07Speaker 02

  He just wanted to say something.

• 3:09:08Speaker 01

  It just didn't make sense to me. Nothing about these, we talk about how, you know, these things were taken out meticulously and very carefully, sure, but that's a lot of fucking work to go through to get, when you could, technically, if you're really just looking for organs to harvest, it's like, find somebody who's like, at that point, people were like dying on the streets. It's like, guys, you're, that doesn't make sense.

• 3:09:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:09:33Speaker 01

  That they're doing, he's doing it too quickly and in too obvious places and leaving them in the mid, like in the middle of the street. Why would he be doing that? Wouldn't he take them back somewhere?

• 3:09:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:09:45Speaker 01

  Move them out of the way to not get caught?

• 3:09:47Speaker 02

  Well, and

• 3:09:48Speaker 01

  keep doing this.

• 3:09:49Speaker 02

  If he wanted to make more money, would he not just take all of the organs or like as many as he can?

• 3:09:54Speaker 01

  That's the thing. It's like, I don't know. I don't know about this. That doesn't, it makes no sense to me.

• 3:09:59Speaker 02

  He didn't take an organ from everybody at this point.

• 3:10:02Speaker 01

  Not from everybody.

• 3:10:03Speaker 02

  Still, that, that also doesn't make sense.

• 3:10:04Speaker 01

  It doesn't. As soon as they heard that a uterus was taken, it was like, this must be for the black market. And it's like, no, I don't think so.

• 3:10:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:10:12Speaker 01

  Also, I don't know how, like, so he takes this uterus. What's he doing with it?

• 3:10:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:10:18Speaker 01

  You can't just throw it like on ice and be like, well, maybe someone will buy this. Like, they can't use that. What do you think they're using that for? Like, it doesn't make any sense.

• 3:10:28Speaker 02

  Do you think that the real murderer took the uterus and like kept it?

• 3:10:33Speaker 01

  That's what nobody understands.

• 3:10:35Speaker 02

  Do you think

• 3:10:36Speaker 01

  Nobody knows.

• 3:10:36Speaker 02

  It could have been a trophy for him?

• 3:10:38Speaker 01

  I think it seems like a lot of these are trophies.

• 3:10:41Speaker 02

  And do you think, like, you know how, like, people will buy oddities?

• 3:10:43Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:10:44Speaker 02

  Do you think he kept it in like an oddity jar?

• 3:10:46Speaker 01

  Like a jar of formalin or something?

• 3:10:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a very high possibility. Or that he just tossed it somewhere and it was never found.

• 3:10:54Speaker 02

  Took it to take it.

• 3:10:55Speaker 01

  Just took it to take it to fuck with people. Who really knows?

• 3:10:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:10:58Speaker 01

  That's the worst part of this. Now, after Annie Chapman, there was a three-week lull. So people started to get lulled into a sense of false security.

• 3:11:07Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:11:07Speaker 01

  That was until September 29th, 1888. At 1:00 AM, Lewis Dimsholz, I believe it's DM Schultz, I think, actually, Louis DM Schultz, was coming back from work and he was taking a horse and carriage. He was the steward of the International Working Men's Educational Club. I think I mentioned it in part one at some point, on the other side of the Dutfield's Yard Court, around 40 Burner Street. So the Dutfield's Yard was like this big courtyard that there was all kinds of things around it.

• 3:11:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:11:38Speaker 01

  And one of these was that, that club. Um, he was cutting through Dutfield's Yard and his horse wouldn't walk anymore and appeared scared. It was like pulling to one side, clearly trying to avoid something.

• 3:11:51Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:11:51Speaker 01

  And it was pitch black. There wasn't one light in this courtyard. So it is literally the blackest black. His horse isn't walking anymore. And he's like, what the fuck is this?

• 3:12:00Speaker 02

  Animals know.

• 3:12:01Speaker 01

  So he lights a match and he cut, and he sees a bundle in front of him on the ground. He thought it was just like a tarp that was rolled up. So I think what it said was he took like, um, the whip that he had was for the horse, because the worst, and he just like poked it, but was like, uh, I don't really know what this is.

• 3:12:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:12:17Speaker 01

  But he jumps down, he sees a woman lying on the ground next to the wall of the club, but he can barely see. So he went into the club to grab a candle and two other men came out with him to go look back at who was on the ground. When they all lit matches to see, they lifted her shoulders and head and she was completely limp. When they held the lights to her, they found that this woman had her throat violently slashed. There was blood all over the ground and pavement beneath her. They estimated about two quarts.

• 3:12:48Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 3:12:48Speaker 01

  Had flowed towards the door of the club beneath her.

• 3:12:51Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 3:12:52Speaker 01

  Her hair was completely matted with blood and mud. She was holding a packet of breath fresheners in one hand and her, I guess her hand was like still a little clenched around it. There was actually a myth that she was holding grapes in her right hand, but that's not true. No grapes were found on her.

• 3:13:09Speaker 02

  Oh, I remember that. For some reason, I remember that piece.

• 3:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's a reason for that because I think people, there's a, there's a sighting where like she was eating grapes.

• 3:13:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:13:18Speaker 01

  So I think that became something, but that is a no report. It's a no coroner's report.

• 3:13:23Speaker 02

  I remember when I wrote my silly paper for high school, like saying something about, or like reading something about the grapes.

• 3:13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you probably would have written it because it's, it's stated in a lot of sources as like, this is in the report. It's not.

• 3:13:34Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 3:13:35Speaker 01

  It is not in the report.

• 3:13:36Speaker 02

  That's so random.

• 3:13:36Speaker 01

  I know. It's really frustrating when that happens because you're like, what the fuck?

• 3:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:13:40Speaker 01

  And actually, before I even go any further, let me tell you, because I found a couple of other, uh, books for you guys to read.

• 3:13:45Speaker 02

  How many books do you have at this point?

• 3:13:47Speaker 01

  I am on seven.

• 3:13:49Speaker 02

  Cash.

• 3:13:50Speaker 01

  So the newest one I found was, uh, Jack the Ripper, Scotland Yard Investigates by Stuart P. Evans and Jo, and Donald Rumbolo. Donald Rumbolo also did the complete Jack the Ripper, which is another book that I recommend. Uh, the other one that I found was Jack the Ripper, The Definitive Case Book by Richard Whittington Egan. That one's really good because it kind of doesn't give you a blow-by-blow of the case. It goes into the different theories and the different like myths and the different things. It kind of gives you a more like, uh, abstract look at the case, which is really interesting and fun. So I definitely recommend those. And, um, I've been linking the other ones, like The Hidden Lives of Jack

• 3:14:35Speaker 01

  the Ripper's Victims by Robert Hume, The Ripper Code by Thomas Tuffil, uh, Jack the Ripper and the Case for Scotland Yard Suspect by Robert House, and, um, The Five by, uh, Hallie Rubenholtz. They're all really good. They're all tell, like, they all have different pieces of the puzzle. So I highly recommend you go read all of them because they're amazing. And again, I will link all of these.

• 3:14:59Speaker 02

  Summer reading brought to you by

• 3:15:01Speaker 01

  Summer reading. Uh, so no grapes, no grapes. She was wearing a long black coat with red and white flowers pinned to it. Um, trimmed, the whole thing was trimmed with fur. And, um, she was wearing a black skirt, a black bonnet and a, uh, like checkered neck scarf that was pulled very tightly around her neck, but they said that they thought she pulled it very tightly. And then maybe it got slightly tightened when, you know, she was attacked, but they didn't think it was like, he tied something around her neck.

• 3:15:30Speaker 02

  Like he didn't choke her with it or anything.

• 3:15:32Speaker 01

  Now, they got a police officer immediately, of course, and soon there was a crowd gathering around her. Uh, our boy, Dr. Bagster Phillips, was at it again. Uh, he declared that she was still warm and had likely just been killed.

• 3:15:46Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 3:15:46Speaker 01

  Now, everyone in the club and everyone who was outside from the club got searched. They got interviewed. Their homes were searched. They were probably not psyched about that, but like you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, my dudes. I don't know what to tell you. No one was found to have bloods on blood on their hands or their clothing and nothing was found out of the ordinary.

• 3:16:05Speaker 02

  Which is like, great, but also just a fucking bummer because you're like, oh.

• 3:16:08Speaker 01

  I know. You're like, you, he wasn't just someone running back into the club. Can you imagine if it was just one of them? He just walked back into the club.

• 3:16:15Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 3:16:16Speaker 01

  Now, on October 1st, 1888, she was identified as Elizabeth Stride, who sometimes went by Annie Fitzgerald. I know that is a totally different name. That is just another one that she went by.

• 3:16:27Speaker 02

  An alias is an alias, baby.

• 3:16:29Speaker 01

  She was known around the area to be constantly arrested for being drunk and disorderly as of late. Yeah. You know, Elizabeth had many nicknames aside from Annie Fitzgerald. She was known as Long Liz.

• 3:16:41Speaker 02

  Long Liz.

• 3:16:42Speaker 01

  Likely. Now, this is interesting because I didn't realize that this was a thing, but I guess like people with the last name stride, that was like a running joke at the time that they would call them like long, whatever.

• 3:16:54Speaker 02

  Cause you're striding. Yeah.

• 3:16:55Speaker 01

  Which I'm like, wow, guys.

• 3:16:57Speaker 02

  How funny.

• 3:16:58Speaker 01

  Hilarious. Uh, but other people, because it was like a whole thing where people were like, is it that? Or is it because she had like a long face? Was she, and she wasn't that tall. So it doesn't make sense.

• 3:17:08Speaker 02

  Maybe that was why though.

• 3:17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. It could have been like a funny, like long Liz over here.

• 3:17:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:17:13Speaker 01

  But she was also known as Mother Gum.

• 3:17:15Speaker 02

  Because she always had breath mints?

• 3:17:17Speaker 01

  No, because when she laughed, which was often because she was known to be very jovial and very sweet.

• 3:17:23Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:17:24Speaker 01

  She showcased um, kind of a gummy mouth because she was missing several teeth, including.

• 3:17:28Speaker 02

  Such dicks.

• 3:17:29Speaker 01

  I know. People were real dicks. Uh, she was missing her two front teeth. So, you know, people are dicks. People have always been dicks. It's just.

• 3:17:38Speaker 02

  Trolls be trolling.

• 3:17:39Speaker 01

  But it seems to me like a lot of these women, even when people were like dicks, they just kind of like took it in stride and were just like, ah, fuck off. And would just like go about their business.

• 3:17:48Speaker 02

  The UK.

• 3:17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like they, they.

• 3:17:50Speaker 02

  Water off a duck's back in the UK.

• 3:17:52Speaker 01

  They just, they know how to joke.

• 3:17:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:17:55Speaker 01

  And they know how to let jokes roll.

• 3:17:56Speaker 02

  Cause they're cheeky.

• 3:17:57Speaker 01

  They are. They're cheeky and we fucking love them.

• 3:18:00Speaker 02

  So sensitive.

• 3:18:01Speaker 01

  Like, we love them.

• 3:18:02Speaker 02

  Some people can be.

• 3:18:03Speaker 01

  They can. They know how to do it.

• 3:18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:18:05Speaker 01

  They really do. We love you guys.

• 3:18:08Speaker 02

  My stepmom is like British and her mom was like, actually like lived in Britain.

• 3:18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:18:12Speaker 02

  Her name was Cleo and she was the coolest fucking lady and she would just like read you, but like in the funniest way.

• 3:18:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, and you know that it's like.

• 3:18:20Speaker 02

  It was silly.

• 3:18:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. You can, you can take it because it's funny.

• 3:18:23Speaker 02

  All in good fun.

• 3:18:24Speaker 01

  And it's all in good fun. Everybody just roasts each other. It's wonderful. So like we, we see you. We love you. Uh, so who was Elizabeth? Who was Mother Gum? Who was Long Liz? Who was Annie Fitzgerald? Who were they? So we're talking about Elizabeth Stride here. She was originally named Elizabeth Gustaf's daughter. She was born November 27th, 1843 in Stora. I might say lots of these things wrong because it is in Sweden. Uh, Stora Tumlahead in Sweden.

• 3:18:53Speaker 02

  I think that she might be a Capricorn.

• 3:18:58Speaker 01

  Get it, girl.

• 3:18:59Speaker 02

  Let me double check.

• 3:19:00Speaker 01

  She was one of four kids with an older sister, Anna Christina, and two brothers, Carl Bernhard and Svante. Um, her father was Gustav Erikson, which is why her last name was Gustav's daughter.

• 3:19:13Speaker 02

  Makes sense. Um, were you wrong?

• 3:19:14Speaker 01

  Sagittarius.

• 3:19:15Speaker 02

  There you go. You, you were close.

• 3:19:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Her mother was Vita Carl's daughter and they lived on a farm. All, everyone was expected to work on this farm, kids included from a very early age. They grew potatoes, other vegetables, you know, it was a pretty, it was like a nice little farm, but yeah, not very lucrative, not very easy work. So it was tough growing up. They literally kept the kids home from school to work on the farm. Like they were expected to just work on the farm.

• 3:19:43Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 3:19:44Speaker 01

  And in that time, it just, that was the way. It was just that important to make sure that they were making money from the farm because that was all they had.

• 3:19:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:19:52Speaker 01

  So especially, especially the girls. They were definitely not considered at that time worth going to school if they could work at home. It was just the way it was. Now, when she was 17, she took off to start her own life in the city of Gothenburg. She was known as a very kind and very respectable girl who didn't get into any trouble. She was also known to always have her Bible with her because that is one thing growing up. They went to church. They could, I think the, um, what I read in the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's victims was that like, the only thing she really did know how to read was her Bible. Like that was it. Now, um, people really liked her and they really got along with her. She settled in pretty well. And by February of that year, she had

• 3:20:37Speaker 01

  gotten work as a domestic servant for Lars Frederick Olafson and his wife. It was a super nice environment. She took care of their kids. She did work around the house. She worked for them for three years. Everything was great. No complaints at all. Then out of nowhere, with no notice and no hint of displeasure, she just walked out.

• 3:20:58Speaker 02

  Something had to have happened.

• 3:20:59Speaker 01

  And that's why I'm like, what happened there?

• 3:21:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. What's the tea?

• 3:21:02Speaker 01

  Something happened there. Of course. Now she had to go find somewhere to stay because she no longer had a nice, nice roof over her head and she walked out of a nice home. So it's like, what happened there? We're missing a piece of that puzzle and I don't, I don't know if we'll ever get it.

• 3:21:17Speaker 02

  And it's interesting too, that, because it's like, you know, your mind goes to like certain places, but she had been there for three years and then all of a sudden something happened.

• 3:21:24Speaker 01

  Something had come to a head or.

• 3:21:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:21:26Speaker 01

  What happened here? Um, I would, I would like to know, but I don't know if we'll ever find out. Now, uh, she ended up getting a room in, on like a street that was not a great area.

• 3:21:37Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 3:21:37Speaker 01

  Cause that's really all she could afford at the time.

• 3:21:39Speaker 02

  Where they were. Yeah.

• 3:21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. August 1864, her mother, at only 54 years old, died of a respiratory illness. Could have been TB, could have been anything. We don't know, but she was young and she so she's devastated.

• 3:21:53Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 3:21:54Speaker 01

  She took to the area she was finding herself living in and she took to the streets as a sex worker.

• 3:21:59Speaker 02

  Because she had no other options.

• 3:22:01Speaker 01

  And often that is what we find in these situations. They had no other option.

• 3:22:05Speaker 02

  And I wonder if she like had lost some faith, you know what I mean?

• 3:22:08Speaker 01

  For sure. Like a lot of them were hopeless at the time that they were killed and had been hopeless for a long time.

• 3:22:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:22:16Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, this was like a really sad time. There was not a lot of hope and there was not a lot of like positive stuff to look at. Now, this is interesting again from the hidden lives of Jack the Ripper's victims. I found out that she was registered in the Gothenburg police files as a quote prostitute. Interestingly, in Sweden, this registration wasn't like they registered her to like arrest her. This, she registered as one. That meant she was legally allowed to be a sex worker and would not be arrested for it in the 1800s. In Sweden. Yeah.

• 3:22:49Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:22:50Speaker 01

  The Swedish government figured it was better to just control and regulate what was going on.

• 3:22:55Speaker 02

  Imagine that.

• 3:22:56Speaker 01

  And now it wasn't all, it wasn't great. I will say that. It sounds great. Like it sounds like, oh, wow. Progressive, but like, I don't know. Uh, they, basically they were just trying to stop because at the time, the spread of disease was very rampant and especially like, and the spread of illnesses, like sexually transmitted illnesses. So they figured instead of criminalize it, they were just going to try to keep it under control. So they registered sex workers and allowed them to work, but just wanted to be made aware of any health concerns, which sounds fine. Each worker was described in the register and other information was put in their file, aside from like diseases or illnesses, other health information. Elizabeth was 21 at the time. She was labeled as female prostitute

• 3:23:39Speaker 01

  number 97, which like, wow. And described as being slight build, blue eyes, brown hair, a straight nose and other random information.

• 3:23:49Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:23:50Speaker 01

  This sounds again, like I said, very progressive way to look at sex work, but it wasn't, especially for like 18, whatever, 1860s. Um, but it wasn't just as simple as that. She was also not allowed to be outside in public until after 11:00 PM.

• 3:24:07Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:24:08Speaker 01

  So you, with, with that like little dollop of progressiveness, you're like, wait, what? What was that? What? Like, yeah.

• 3:24:17Speaker 02

  Like at all?

• 3:24:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like she couldn't be like, she, she could not work out in public.

• 3:24:22Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:24:22Speaker 01

  Until after 11:00 PM.

• 3:24:23Speaker 02

  All right.

• 3:24:24Speaker 01

  Now, she had to also go twice a week to the doctor to be examined and had to like, make sure that nothing was happening.

• 3:24:30Speaker 02

  Which like, that's the good part of it.

• 3:24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 3:24:32Speaker 02

  Keeping her and others safe.

• 3:24:33Speaker 01

  There's beneficial things here, but it's like a little too controlling. Now, at one point when she was young, she gave birth to a stillborn child from an unknown father. This was devastating for her, obviously. And she had just lost her mother. I mean, I think she was only 21 years old at the time when that happened, but she went back to the street life and was in and out of the hospital with sexually transmitted illnesses several times over the next few months and maybe a couple of years. Now in November, 1865, she ended up being taken off the register by the police. And this would really only happen if they like moved, died, like something big happened. Now this one was for a positive

• 3:25:13Speaker 01

  thing. It was she got another job as a domestic servant for Carl Wenzel Wisner and his young wife, Maria. So she only stayed there for a few months though. She ended up leaving when Maria informed her that she was pregnant. I don't know if it was because she didn't want to take care of a baby. She just wanted to be a domestic servant.

• 3:25:32Speaker 02

  Just lost a baby.

• 3:25:32Speaker 01

  She had just lost a baby. Maybe she just wasn't ready. Um. But at this point, she did find out that she got a little money from her dead mother's estate.

• 3:25:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:25:42Speaker 01

  So this was her chance. She was like, I'm gonna get far away from the shittiness in Sweden, and I'm going to London.

• 3:25:51Speaker 02

  Oh, no.

• 3:25:52Speaker 01

  Cause every, the grass is always greener.

• 3:25:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:25:55Speaker 01

  Now, she worked briefly in the West End in London, which we discussed at one point was like, kind of the upper class elite. She liked it, like she was finding work as a domestic servant. She liked it. But I think, I don't know if I mentioned it in the Mary, the Polly Nichols one, but Polly Nichols was struggling with the fact that when she was a domestic servant, they paid you three months out. So for the first three months, you didn't get paid. And then you got paid the back three months.

• 3:26:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:26:24Speaker 01

  So if you could stick it out for those three months, cool, you're getting a big check. But most of these people are taking this job with no money to their name. They can't afford that.

• 3:26:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:26:33Speaker 01

  So it's like, kind of this terrible cycle of like, people can't deal with the three months of no pay.

• 3:26:38Speaker 02

  Right. Like, what are you supposed to do?

• 3:26:39Speaker 01

  And that was just how it was there. Like, that's, that was like standard, that like, you didn't get paid for the first. I don't know if it was like your probationary period, maybe?

• 3:26:49Speaker 02

  Oh, probably.

• 3:26:50Speaker 01

  And like, like a 90 day probationary period?

• 3:26:53Speaker 02

  That makes perfect sense.

• 3:26:54Speaker 01

  I think that's kind of how it went, but like, you don't get paid, and that's tougher back then, especially when like, nothing. Like, these people are coming in there with not anything to rub together.

• 3:27:03Speaker 02

  But they could live in the house and-

• 3:27:06Speaker 01

  They could live in the house, and I think they could eat, but it was like, still, and a lot of them were very reliant on alcohol at the time, because they're struggling.

• 3:27:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27:16Speaker 01

  I think that has a lot to do with it. Yeah. Now, and I think a lot of them just want to be able to like, have, you know, people want their own money, you know? Like, you don't want to have to rely on someone for three months. So a lot of people dealt with it, but some people couldn't. And she was struggling with this, like, this three month period. Because that's not how it was done in Sweden, and she didn't know that this is how it was gonna be.

• 3:27:40Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:27:40Speaker 01

  So Elizabeth Split, from this like, domestic servants job in the West End, found her way to a known Swedish parish in the area, because she figured, I can meet some people that I can go to their church.

• 3:27:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:27:52Speaker 01

  It'll feel like home, but without all the stresses.

• 3:27:54Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 3:27:55Speaker 01

  So it worked for her for a while, and she was staying in lodging houses and trying to make her way. She had gotten herself a small job making and cleaning bed linens for the lodging house, which a lot of these women did as well. They would sometimes be able to like, clean the floors, clean the kitchen, cook at the lodging houses, change the beds, you know, do the laundry. And them doing that was like, okay, you get your free night's stay. Like, you worked. It was like a workhouse without being a workhouse. So she got herself that small job. It seemed to be working out a little bit. This is when she became known as Long Liz.

• 3:28:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:28:28Speaker 01

  That's when people started calling her that. It's, again, I guess it was a common nickname for people with that surname, but like, what?

• 3:28:36Speaker 02

  It's just so weird.

• 3:28:37Speaker 01

  Like, alright. Now, around this time is when she, like, it was right before she was being called Long Liz, that she met John Thomas Stride.

• 3:28:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 3:28:46Speaker 01

  He was a carpenter from the Isle of Sheppes Kent. He was said to be a short, unattractive man who was abrasive and loud. So it's like, okay.

• 3:28:58Speaker 02

  Short, abrasive, and loud.

• 3:29:00Speaker 01

  Alright, I guess so, Elizabeth.

• 3:29:02Speaker 02

  The word abrasive.

• 3:29:04Speaker 01

  Abrasive is a great word to describe a lot of people.

• 3:29:06Speaker 02

  Cause you feel it.

• 3:29:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:29:08Speaker 02

  Abrasive is like a feeling, you know what I mean?

• 3:29:10Speaker 01

  It really is. It's abrasive. Like, I feel, like, I know who he is.

• 3:29:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:29:15Speaker 01

  Like, I know exactly who this short, unattractive abrasive man is.

• 3:29:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:29:21Speaker 01

  But, you know, Liz was taken, I suppose. She was taken with this short, unattractive man who was abrasive and loud.

• 3:29:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:29:28Speaker 01

  Now, they married, March 7th, 1869.

• 3:29:31Speaker 02

  Hot.

• 3:29:31Speaker 01

  They moved into the East End, into a lodging house, and together-

• 3:29:35Speaker 02

  So hot.

• 3:29:36Speaker 01

  Not so hot, but you know, and they opened up a coffee shop together, because he was already, I think- Yeah, right? See, we're getting there. And he was already kind of like, in that business. He, he wanted to open up his own coffee place. And this was in East India Dock Road in Poplar.

• 3:29:54Speaker 02

  I would love to open up a coffee place.

• 3:29:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, this sounds like it would be awesome. It wasn't.

• 3:29:58Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:29:59Speaker 01

  Um, it wasn't working out, and they actually moved a couple of times the coffee shop location, because like, one would fail, and they just moved to another one.

• 3:30:06Speaker 02

  They just weren't getting enough customers?

• 3:30:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just wasn't happening. And I don't think they were like, super on it when it came to the business stuff. But the, the third one that they opened was at 178 Poplar High Street, next to the docks. They were scraping by at this point. John was a carpenter, so during the day, he was working, and Elizabeth was, uh-

• 3:30:27Speaker 02

  Brewing the coff-

• 3:30:27Speaker 01

  Managing the shop. But she was taking more time at pubs than just drinking than managing the shop, because she was like, eh, I don't feel like sitting here.

• 3:30:35Speaker 02

  Again, vibing.

• 3:30:36Speaker 01

  She's got places to go. She's on the move. A lot of these women-

• 3:30:40Speaker 02

  By the way, guys, she's a Sag, so Sagittarius, you know, we like to be all around, all over the place.

• 3:30:47Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 3:30:47Speaker 02

  You know, run away-

• 3:30:48Speaker 01

  We.

• 3:30:49Speaker 02

  Cause I'm a Sag rising.

• 3:30:50Speaker 01

  Oh, I was like, you're a Gemini.

• 3:30:51Speaker 02

  I am.

• 3:30:51Speaker 01

  What are you talking about?

• 3:30:52Speaker 02

  But they say that the older you get, the more you start to align with your rising.

• 3:30:56Speaker 01

  Oh, look at that.

• 3:30:56Speaker 02

  And I, I do feel that way, actually.

• 3:30:58Speaker 01

  Well, there you go. Yeah. A lot of these women that became victims of Jack the Ripper, it seemed like they were just not, they could have gone a lot of places if life had given them any card to work with.

• 3:31:13Speaker 02

  I think that's a perfect way of putting it.

• 3:31:14Speaker 01

  Because I feel like they all were not content to sit and just rot. They wanted more, and they wanted to go, go, go, but they just, life was just kicking them, kicking them, kicking them every single time.

• 3:31:27Speaker 02

  A way to get there.

• 3:31:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just kind of was like banging their heads against a brick wall, and I feel, the more you read about them, the more you're like, damn, I'm sorry.

• 3:31:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:31:35Speaker 01

  Like shit. Like, it's just like, shit was not great. But again, she was, this is, alcohol tends to play a very heavy role in all these people's lives, I think, just because escapism. And just to get, and to get away from the terrible, terribleness that was surrounding them.

• 3:31:54Speaker 01

  But again, she didn't really want to sit and manage the shop. She was known around all the pubs and around the locals to be fun, sweet. She was really funny. Just like she was known back in Sweden. She was the same girl. People at the Blackeneys pub, Blackeneys Head Pub, excuse me, were the ones to name her Mother Gum. And that was because she laughed a lot.

• 3:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:32:14Speaker 01

  And when she would laugh, they were like, Mother Gum, like-

• 3:32:17Speaker 02

  Man.

• 3:32:18Speaker 01

  But I think that, again, I think it was just like, she probably thought it was like, whatever, like, good fuck.

• 3:32:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:32:25Speaker 01

  In 1874, the coffee, coffee shop was actually almost just closed down. But instead, it changed hands, so they were able to give it over to someone else. They were kind of running it into the ground, so another businessman just took over.

• 3:32:37Speaker 02

  I know, because that actually, when you said it was near the docks, I was like, oh, great location.

• 3:32:40Speaker 01

  You would think. Yeah, but I think they were just kind of running it into the ground.

• 3:32:43Speaker 02

  Somebody there to be a good location.

• 3:32:45Speaker 01

  They just like washed their hands of it.

• 3:32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:32:47Speaker 01

  Now, March 21st, 1877, there was a police report where she was seen in the Thames Magistrates Court in Stepney, and then ordered to enter Poplar Workhouse. That usually means you got in trouble, and that was your punishment. Often to avoid jail, people would take on hard labor at workhouses to pay their debts to society. So jail.

• 3:33:09Speaker 02

  But we don't, yeah, I was gonna say, so jail without going to jail.

• 3:33:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:33:12Speaker 02

  But we don't know what she did.

• 3:33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, we don't know exactly what she did there. I'm assuming, as most of the time, there was probably some kind of like disorderly intoxication, that kind of thing, because they were always getting in trouble for that, because like, people just like, need to chill out.

• 3:33:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, just like, calm down.

• 3:33:28Speaker 01

  Whatever, just let her live.

• 3:33:29Speaker 02

  It's like, she's, again, she's vibing.

• 3:33:31Speaker 01

  She's just vibing.

• 3:33:32Speaker 02

  Let her vibe.

• 3:33:32Speaker 01

  So in, it was September 3rd, 1878, that she got herself into a scam. That was like, kind of reprehensible, to be quite honest.

• 3:33:43Speaker 02

  For her?

• 3:33:43Speaker 01

  Not a great look for her. Yeah, not a great moment in her life that kind of carries out.

• 3:33:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:33:48Speaker 01

  Now, a steamer ship by the name of Princess Alice, on this day, collided with another ship, a ship named Bywell Castle on the Thames River, and it sank.

• 3:33:59Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:33:59Speaker 01

  Somewhere between 600 and 700 people died in this tragedy. It was a huge tragedy. There was a collection put together, where people could donate to the families who had lost loved ones in the ship.

• 3:34:12Speaker 01

  She pretended to be a survivor of the accident, and that her husband and two of her, what she said were nine children, were killed in the accident. And she claimed she had seven other kids to take care of now.

• 3:34:27Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:34:28Speaker 01

  She even claimed that those two front teeth that she didn't have were kicked out by another passenger who was desperately trying to save themselves in the accident.

• 3:34:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:34:39Speaker 01

  And she said she managed to survive by climbing the ship's mast to safety.

• 3:34:44Speaker 02

  What about the seven kids, though? How'd they get out?

• 3:34:46Speaker 01

  That's the thing. You never see those seven kids. She did not have seven kids.

• 3:34:51Speaker 02

  Like, where are your kids at?

• 3:34:52Speaker 01

  Um, it didn't work, because people were like, where are those seven kids? And she was like, about that. And they were like, yeah, you don't have that. Like, that's, and they were like, you are not listed on the manifest anywhere. Neither is anyone with that many kids. And no one lost a husband and two children, or people did, but like, no one by the name of you.

• 3:35:10Speaker 02

  Right, right, right.

• 3:35:11Speaker 01

  So it didn't make sense.

• 3:35:12Speaker 02

  Okey dokey.

• 3:35:13Speaker 01

  She did unfortunately use this story over and over and over, and she, you know, it's, she, I think-

• 3:35:20Speaker 02

  She's desperate.

• 3:35:21Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, it's reprehensible, but it's also completely born out of desperation.

• 3:35:27Speaker 02

  And, you know, like, if we were in that position, we don't know what we would do.

• 3:35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, like-

• 3:35:31Speaker 02

  To eat.

• 3:35:31Speaker 01

  To live, to survive. It's bad to, to play off a tragedy like that.

• 3:35:36Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 3:35:37Speaker 01

  It's bad, and I'm not gonna sit here and give her any credit on that.

• 3:35:40Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:35:41Speaker 01

  At all. It's like, and again, nobody's perfect. No victim is perfect.

• 3:35:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:35:46Speaker 01

  They don't have to be perfect. No matter what, they didn't deserve what they got. It doesn't- Just because you're not perfect, and you did some shit in your life, doesn't mean in any way, you deserve to end where you ended.

• 3:35:57Speaker 02

  Nobody's perfect. You live and you learn it.

• 3:36:00Speaker 01

  Nobody's perfect.

• 3:36:01Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 3:36:02Speaker 01

  You know?

• 3:36:02Speaker 02

  We're in different places entirely.

• 3:36:04Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 3:36:04Speaker 02

  I love you so much.

• 3:36:08Speaker 01

  But it's true, though. It's true.

• 3:36:11Speaker 02

  It's like, I will say, at least she wasn't like, working like as a domestic servant and like making that money and then being like, hey, by the way, like, I died in a ship crash and I didn't die, but everybody else did. Can I get money? Like, she didn't have anything.

• 3:36:23Speaker 01

  No, and it's, again, it's a shitty thing. It was a bad use of her time. It was a bad

• 3:36:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:36:30Speaker 01

  decision she made. A lot of these women made some bad decisions.

• 3:36:34Speaker 02

  Because when the system is working against you, that's when you make bad decisions.

• 3:36:38Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you don't even need to justify all of them. Everyone makes bad decisions and sometimes they're unjustifiable.

• 3:36:45Speaker 02

  Oh, girl, we could do a whole ass podcast about the bad decisions in my life that I've made. Like, we've all been there.

• 3:36:50Speaker 01

  Everybody's been there. So it's like, we don't need to sit here and be like, but, you know, it's like, no, she made a shitty choice and she had to live with it.

• 3:36:56Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 3:36:57Speaker 01

  But again, by no means does it give anybody any justification to harm her. That's not like a, you know, so it's like, we don't have to pretend they were perfect people that just like, didn't do anything bad in their lives. Everybody's shitty.

• 3:37:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:37:11Speaker 01

  In some way. And it's like,

• 3:37:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, people will come like right into us and they're like, listen, when you cover me on the podcast, like, if you ever do someday, don't say that I lit up a room. I didn't.

• 3:37:19Speaker 01

  I didn't.

• 3:37:20Speaker 02

  But I'll still say it. You probably did.

• 3:37:22Speaker 01

  But you know what? They did a lot of great things. They had a lot of people who loved them. They, they wanted to do better and they just couldn't. They were in bad circumstances. But this is a bad, this is a bad decision that she made. And she did use this over and over again, and she used it sometimes. She'd say, she'd just tell people if they asked, like, where's your husband? Oh, he died in a, in the, uh,

• 3:37:43Speaker 02

  In that accident.

• 3:37:44Speaker 01

  And, you know, like, she'd say, like, oh, I lost these teeth, like, in that accident. Or, you know, my kids died in that accident. Like, just, it was usually to try to, like, get ahead a little bit.

• 3:37:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:37:54Speaker 01

  But it never really worked. She just really clung to that story.

• 3:37:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:37:58Speaker 01

  But she had learned early in life how to sew and tailor. And she would sometimes use those skills to earn money, too. But it was just never consistent. That's the problem back then. It just was never consistent money. Now, she was always known by friends to carry sewing equipment. And this was just in case the opportunity arose that she could use her skills.

• 3:38:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:38:18Speaker 01

  She always had buttons, thimbles, a needle, and some thread on her. She was like,

• 3:38:22Speaker 02

  Really cute.

• 3:38:23Speaker 01

  She was just ready to jump into action.

• 3:38:25Speaker 02

  A seamstress.

• 3:38:26Speaker 01

  So you could, you can see that she, Elizabeth was ready to make legitimate money. She just needed the opportunity to do it. By 1881, she and John Stride had moved into a lodging home at 69 Usher Road in Bo. Uh, this was very cramped. They didn't have it to themselves. They had to share with several of the other families. She began drinking very heavily around this time. John, on the other hand, was very religious and the idea of drinking horrified him.

• 3:38:57Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:38:58Speaker 01

  She left around Christmas, leaving their house and John because they just couldn't. It wasn't working. He was like, getting angry that she was drinking. It became a constant source of fighting.

• 3:39:09Speaker 02

  Well, and he's abrasive, too. So.

• 3:39:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And

• 3:39:12Speaker 02

  She's probably getting abrasive as well.

• 3:39:14Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's not good. You're in a cramped place. Now, she became sick around this time and was admitted to Whitechapel Workhouse Infirmary on Baker's Row for bronchitis and exhaustion.

• 3:39:24Speaker 02

  Ooh.

• 3:39:25Speaker 01

  Now, after a week, she was made to go to Whitechapel Workhouse. She struggled.

• 3:39:30Speaker 02

  That they were like, hey, recover from your bronchitis and your exhaustion for one week and then get to work.

• 3:39:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:39:36Speaker 02

  Like, not even just, like, start sewing again. Like, go, like, tie the fucking ship things together and have your hands bleed all over the place.

• 3:39:44Speaker 01

  You feeling good? Okay, get in there.

• 3:39:46Speaker 02

  Go, go crush some bones for Ma, Amaro.

• 3:39:49Speaker 01

  Woo. Now, she was, so she went to Whitechapel Workhouse. She struggled in and out of these kind of situations, not really finding work to rely on. So, like the other victims, she was in these workhouses and lodging homes and casual wards constantly, just over and over again. Um, and John would give her money every now and then, but then they were still estranged. And he was in bad health, too. So now everything's starting to kind of crash. She's not even getting that because he ends up dying, like, very shortly after this. And meanwhile, while they're not together, like estranged, she's still claiming that he died in that ship sinking. So she moved into a lodging house at 32 Flower and Dean Street,

• 3:40:32Speaker 01

  which we mentioned in part one, is one of the worst areas. Flower and Dean Street is that one of those, like, infamous, like, ah.

• 3:40:39Speaker 02

  I love that flower.

• 3:40:40Speaker 01

  Flower and Dean Street.

• 3:40:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, can you name it something like, that will keep me away from it?

• 3:40:44Speaker 01

  Exactly. In 1884, John did end up dying of heart disease.

• 3:40:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:40:49Speaker 01

  By this time, she had turned back to the streets and back to sex work to make money, finding herself absolutely desperate and without options. She got herself caught a few times, then she would have to work off the demerits in workhouses. Now, this is when I came across some, in one of the sources, and I cannot remember which one it was, they mentioned something about, like, you know, had to walk hours a day on a giant treadmill. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? I looked it up. That was like a thing they did back then to prisoners. They would have them work, like, a treadmill was the name for this big fucking contraption that worked on like a mill wheel. And it was literally a treadmill that, or like, almost like a step treadmill, like, almost like,

• 3:41:33Speaker 02

  Like a stairmaster.

• 3:41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that you just, they would make prisoners walk for hours to make this mill run so that they could, like, make flour and shit for, just to, like, be, like, useful.

• 3:41:45Speaker 02

  The stairmaster will get you snatched real quick.

• 3:41:47Speaker 01

  And it was literally like eight hours a day, though.

• 3:41:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:41:51Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:41:51Speaker 01

  Isn't that wild?

• 3:41:52Speaker 02

  I do the stairmaster for like 15 minutes and I'm like, I literally will never be the same again.

• 3:41:58Speaker 01

  I look at a stairmaster and I heave.

• 3:42:01Speaker 02

  I bet.

• 3:42:02Speaker 01

  I can't imagine.

• 3:42:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:42:04Speaker 01

  I can't imagine.

• 3:42:05Speaker 02

  That's horrific.

• 3:42:05Speaker 01

  It just blew it. When I saw that, I was like, whoa. I, I like, you know what? I'll even put a thing in the show notes, a link to it, because you guys just need to do your research. It's a wild rabbit hole to go down. I was like, what is the world?

• 3:42:18Speaker 02

  You would be like, skin and bones. I mean, you have a dump truck, but like, damn.

• 3:42:23Speaker 01

  But at what cost? Exactly. Now, around this time, again, people really like Elizabeth.

• 3:42:29Speaker 02

  I like Elizabeth.

• 3:42:30Speaker 01

  Regardless of some bad choices, Elizabeth was a very likable person.

• 3:42:34Speaker 02

  I mean, the likable people, like, that I know, sometimes do make bad choices.

• 3:42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody does. We're humans. And you know what? She was someone who would try to help you if she could. And she was very jovial, very, like, happy. She was very goofy. She was always laughing. Even when she was sad, she just was always someone that, like, people were like, you know what? She was just fun to be around. Even when she was, like, bummed out, you just didn't feel it.

• 3:42:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:42:58Speaker 01

  So it's like, damn, Elizabeth.

• 3:42:59Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:43:00Speaker 01

  This is when she started seeing a dock worker by the name of Michael Kidney. They stayed at lodging houses together on Dorset Street, another really bad street.

• 3:43:09Speaker 02

  I remember that.

• 3:43:10Speaker 01

  It was, it was along what was called the Wicked Quarter Mile.

• 3:43:14Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:43:14Speaker 01

  And not wicked, like, that's wicked cool kid.

• 3:43:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're not in Boston.

• 3:43:17Speaker 01

  It was wicked. Uh, like, something wicked this way comes. Now, at the lodging house, they made friends and had a kind of community there. So like, you know, now it's becoming like a thing. We're like, we stay at the same lodging houses and like, me and Michael, we're doing this thing, you know?

• 3:43:33Speaker 02

  Sweet.

• 3:43:33Speaker 01

  She worked in the kitchen sometimes. She was a good cook.

• 3:43:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:43:37Speaker 01

  So people liked her cooking. She was like, just getting her feel here. And at this point, I'm like, come on.

• 3:43:42Speaker 02

  I know.

• 3:43:42Speaker 01

  Become a chef.

• 3:43:43Speaker 02

  That's the thing.

• 3:43:43Speaker 01

  You can do it, Elizabeth.

• 3:43:45Speaker 02

  Frustrating.

• 3:43:45Speaker 01

  But she just didn't get the chance.

• 3:43:47Speaker 02

  Would they let, I don't, you might not know this off the top of your head, but like, could a woman work in a restaurant at that point in time, like, as a chef?

• 3:43:53Speaker 01

  I think it was basically like barmaid. You know, it was like, I don't think you were gonna be hired as a chef, but I don't know that, for sure.

• 3:44:00Speaker 02

  You wish that she could get hired, like, to cook for a family.

• 3:44:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. Like, she was decent at it. So it's like, if she, with more practice and more just doing it, she, I think she could have, like, really found her way. But they were eventually able to get some money together to move into a room together on Devonshire Street. Um, but they weren't really happy together.

• 3:44:21Speaker 02

  They were not.

• 3:44:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Michael Kidney is a shithead.

• 3:44:25Speaker 02

  Fuck him.

• 3:44:26Speaker 01

  So she was drinking heavily again and started, um, taking to the street again to get some extra money, kind of just falling back into that life because it was the life she had known. She felt comfortable with it.

• 3:44:38Speaker 02

  And it's a guaranteed way to make money.

• 3:44:39Speaker 01

  It's a guarantee. They all said it at one point, that it was just quick. They would disassociate and they got their money and they would go, which is horrifying to think about.

• 3:44:51Speaker 02

  For real.

• 3:44:51Speaker 01

  Now, he assaulted her one night because he found out that she was got, hey, she had gone back to sex work and he was pissed. So one night when she got home, he assaulted, like, physically assaulted her. Um, and he was pissed that she was drinking, pissed that she was on the streets. And meanwhile, he was an abusive drunk. Like, he himself was an abusive drunk. So he's mad that she's drinking. And he's like, you're a piece of shit drunk. And it's like, yeah, you're a piece of shit drunk.

• 3:45:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:45:22Speaker 01

  And then she, he's pissed. And I'm like, well, she doesn't have any opportunities, motherfucker. Like, what do you want from her?

• 3:45:26Speaker 02

  Because you're sitting around drinking the money away.

• 3:45:28Speaker 01

  You're a shitty asshole, too. Like, come on. So she had enough after she, like, assaulted her and she left. So on March 21st, 1886, she went to live at Poplar Union Workhouse and was sent to the infirmary because she was in extremely bad condition. She was not doing well.

• 3:45:45Speaker 02

  It was probably like all the drinking, like affecting her body.

• 3:45:48Speaker 01

  And it was just like the life she was having to lead.

• 3:45:50Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, yeah.

• 3:45:51Speaker 01

  Now, she did go back to kidney several times. It was one of those very toxic moments. Each time it got worse and worse. He was more and more abusive, but she needed a roof over her head a lot. So she was willing to put up with it.

• 3:46:03Speaker 02

  That's so sad.

• 3:46:04Speaker 01

  Which is really sad. She was brought before the Thames Magistrates Court eight times between 87 and 88.

• 3:46:11Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 3:46:13Speaker 01

  It was all for drunken disorderly stuff. So she was really going through it. The year before she was killed, she was going through it.

• 3:46:20Speaker 02

  And like we said, that seems to be the case. It's like they get, and it's just so sad because every single one so far has had this little piece of hope where like, ooh, you could turn it around.

• 3:46:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:46:31Speaker 02

  Life just doesn't let them.

• 3:46:32Speaker 01

  No, exactly. And it's like, right here is where like, she was at her worst. She was back to sex work, which she was not happy doing. She wasn't cooking. She wasn't. Michael Kinney and her were back and forth, but every time it was abuse, abuse, abuse. She's just in a terrible place. September 20th of 1988, she was walking in Whitechapel and she met a woman named Catherine Lane and her friend Elizabeth Tanner. When she started talking to Catherine, she was like, oh, this is Elizabeth. And Elizabeth Tanner was like, oh, I'm the manager of the lodging house on Flower and Dean Street. And she was like, if you wanna stay there, like, I'll help you out because she heard her story.

• 3:47:14Speaker 01

  And she was like, wow, like you have a terribly abusive partner. Like, I'm gonna try to help you out.

• 3:47:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:47:20Speaker 01

  So she told her, you can stay there. She was like, you need to do some laundry. You need to clean.

• 3:47:26Speaker 02

  Do your part.

• 3:47:26Speaker 01

  I'll pay you a small amount and you can stay for a roof over your head, which is huge. And she was like, I can also help out in the kitchen.

• 3:47:33Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:47:33Speaker 01

  And she was like, cool, perfect. This is great.

• 3:47:36Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:47:36Speaker 01

  So they got along really well. Things were going well. She got, she's a few days into this new job, this new lodging situation. Elizabeth Tanner was really liking stride. She said she got along with her. She would have been happy to have her there for longer. And on September 29th, 1888, they went drinking together at the Queenshead Pub around 6:30 PM, which it's like, they must have really liked each other. Like, she's the deputy of this lodging house. Usually they're like manager of lodging house.

• 3:48:03Speaker 02

  She's not like going drinking with the tenants.

• 3:48:05Speaker 01

  Exactly. A lot of times they were dicks. And it's like, sometimes they were cool. And it seems like if the two of them are getting along so well, like, must have been a nice relationship.

• 3:48:13Speaker 02

  Well, and it's like, at that point too, it's like, maybe she could have found herself like co-managing this place.

• 3:48:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, people from the lodging house remember her coming back around 7:00 PM. So after having that drink with Elizabeth Tanner. And then getting ready to leave again. And by 7:30, a few of them witnessed her in the kitchen. They said she appeared to be in good spirits, was happy. She was openly readying herself to walk the streets that evening. So she was saying, I'm gonna make a few, I'm gonna make some money.

• 3:48:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:48:41Speaker 01

  Now, witnesses saw her with several different men slash possibly clients throughout the evening. Before 11:00 PM, a couple of men saw her speaking to a man they described as wearing a jacket that had white flowers pinned to it. They both called him clerkly looking, like he looked like a clerk. I think it's like, you look like a clerk, I guess. He had a dark mustache. I don't know if it's just like. Cause I saw this and I was like, that's a strange description, but somebody else describes a man that way too. The two men saw this man and her leaving the Bricklayers Arms in, which is a pub, the Bricklayers Arms in Settle Street together. And they were like kissing each other and hugging.

• 3:49:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:49:24Speaker 01

  So like seemed very close.

• 3:49:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:49:26Speaker 01

  More witnesses saw Elizabeth with this man and they were both going towards Commercial Street. Or Commercial Road, excuse me. At 11:45 PM, William Marshall, a witness, reported he saw Elizabeth, quote, kissing and carrying on with a man he described as a clerk looking man. This man was described as having a sailor's hat on and they were walking towards Dutfield's Court near the International Workmen's Educational Club.

• 3:49:53Speaker 02

  Already.

• 3:49:54Speaker 01

  Don't know if you remember that.

• 3:49:55Speaker 02

  I do.

• 3:49:56Speaker 01

  He heard this man saying to her, you would say anything but your prayers.

• 3:50:01Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 3:50:02Speaker 01

  And she laughed. So I think he was being like cheeky, like you would say anything but your prayers. And she was like, haha, cheeky. But Dutfield's Yard, like we said, is next to that club, which was hopping late at night, but the yard itself was gated off and pitch black. It was a, it was described as a place you would have to grope your way through to get to the other side of where the gate was.

• 3:50:23Speaker 02

  And that's the thing, like, I don't even think we can actually grasp how fucking dark it was.

• 3:50:28Speaker 01

  I cannot. I cannot grasp the concept of how dark this is.

• 3:50:31Speaker 02

  Cause I'm like picturing it and every now and again, I'm like a street light and I'm like, none.

• 3:50:35Speaker 01

  No. And I panic when like, the lights go off and there's no source of light and you have to like find a light switch. That is a real panic moment for me. I don't like, like, like heavy, heavy darkness.

• 3:50:47Speaker 02

  I don't like the sound of darkness.

• 3:50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, so thinking of that outside, when it's dangerous and you know this, like, tons of people are just gonna stab you around and like rob you.

• 3:50:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:50:57Speaker 01

  And like possibly rape you, like they're just everywhere.

• 3:51:00Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 3:51:01Speaker 01

  What? Like, I don't want that.

• 3:51:02Speaker 02

  Dude, I used to have to walk through the common, like from the salon that I used to work at to where I would park. And I would be so fucking terrified. And that place is lit.

• 3:51:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like fully lit.

• 3:51:14Speaker 02

  Fully lit, but like still scary at night.

• 3:51:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, so they were walking towards there. A few minutes later, they were seen, they believe that this is the same guy. Seen at a green grocer shop who was, the grocer was Matthew Packer. It was on Burner Street. He told, I guess what happened in there was the guy walked up to the grocer, Matthew Packer, and was like, like, get her whatever she wants. And so she was like, and she was like, I want some grapes. And he was like, what kind of grapes would you like? We have this grape or this grape. She asked for a certain kind of grape.

• 3:51:47Speaker 02

  She said, I want cotton candy grapes.

• 3:51:49Speaker 01

  There you go. And he bought her the grapes. Packer said he believed this man was about 35 years old. Everything seemed fine, according to him. Now, Police Constable William Smith saw Elizabeth around 12:30 AM near Dutfield's Yard. With a man he said was about 28 years old, which is like a very specific number. Wearing a dark coat and a deerstalker's cap.

• 3:52:12Speaker 02

  So a different man.

• 3:52:13Speaker 01

  Different man, but if you remember that deerstalker's hat, Annie Chapman was talking to a man with a deerstalker's cap. You might be like, whoa, but deerstalker's hats were very common then. So it's not.

• 3:52:24Speaker 02

  But we know.

• 3:52:25Speaker 01

  Still weird.

• 3:52:25Speaker 02

  But we know that she switched, uh, who she's with because the previous man had a sailor's cap.

• 3:52:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 3:52:31Speaker 02

  I'm paying attention.

• 3:52:32Speaker 01

  There you go. See, you're on it.

• 3:52:33Speaker 02

  I'm on it.

• 3:52:34Speaker 01

  Now, he was also carrying a package that was wrapped in newspaper, apparently.

• 3:52:39Speaker 02

  That other man was carrying a package.

• 3:52:41Speaker 01

  There was, there was a few, like, there's different sources that say, cause I think also witnesses confuse themselves in these situations. But there is, there is a package in newspaper that comes up every now and then in these.

• 3:52:54Speaker 02

  Which makes you wonder, is that where he's keeping his tools?

• 3:52:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 3:52:58Speaker 02

  Allah, Albert Fish.

• 3:53:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, does he, does he walk around with them? And that's how he walks around with them? Because no one would question somebody with a package wrapped in newspaper, especially back then.

• 3:53:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:53:10Speaker 01

  Why would anyone care?

• 3:53:11Speaker 02

  I had never picked up, I'm like, I've listened to so much coverage about this case, but I'd never come up with that before.

• 3:53:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. You don't know. We don't know, but it would make, it's not, yeah, it's not a weird thing to think could happen.

• 3:53:22Speaker 02

  Is he walking around with like a six to eight inch knife in his pocket?

• 3:53:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, either it's in his pocket in a sheath of some core sort, but like, it would be, it would make more sense if he was just walking around with it in a newspaper package.

• 3:53:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:53:37Speaker 01

  Cause no one's gonna blink at that.

• 3:53:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:53:39Speaker 01

  And he can walk away still holding the package and no one's gonna question it.

• 3:53:43Speaker 02

  And if anything, it looks less suspicious.

• 3:53:46Speaker 01

  Cause you're just, everybody's walking around holding shit.

• 3:53:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:53:48Speaker 01

  Now, a few minutes later, she was spotted on Fairclose Street with a man who people say was about five foot seven and was wearing a long black coat that went to his ankles.

• 3:53:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:53:58Speaker 01

  This witness heard her say, no, not tonight, some other night.

• 3:54:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 3:54:03Speaker 01

  That particular one, it is reported in everything, but some people, some ripperologists out there, they believe that that was not her. And it's just because when you put it together with everything, it seems like that may have been somebody who they thought was her, but not sure.

• 3:54:20Speaker 02

  Worth noting.

• 3:54:21Speaker 01

  Exactly. Then that brings us to 12:45 AM, when Israel Schwartz was on his way home. He saw a man about five foot five. He said he looked to be about 30 years old. He looked to be a little drunk, little tipsy. Entering, and he was in the entrance of Dutfield's Yard. He had kind of like a round face. He said he had brown hair, a small brown mustache. He was wearing all dark clothing, like, black shirt, black pants, black hat, black everything.

• 3:54:53Speaker 02

  He was a goth.

• 3:54:54Speaker 01

  He was. In the police report from October 19th, 1888, it states this, and I quote. So Israel Schwartz stated at this hour, on turning onto into Burner Street from Commercial Road. And having got as far as the gateway where the murder was committed, he saw a man stop to speak to a woman who was standing in the gateway. The man tried to pull the woman into the street, but he turned her around and threw her down on the footway. And the woman screamed three times, but not very loudly. On crossing to the opposite side of the street, he saw a second man standing, lighting his pipe. The man who threw the woman down called out apparently to the man on the opposite side of the road, Lipsky. That's what he yelled.

• 3:55:38Speaker 01

  And then Schwartz walked away. But finding that he was followed by the second man, the one with the pipe he was lighting, he ran so far as the railway arch, but the man did not follow so far. Schwartz cannot say whether the two men were together or known to each other. Upon being taken to the mortuary, Schwartz identified the body as that of the woman he had seen. And he thus describes the first man who threw the woman down, aged about 30, height 5'5", complexion fair, hair dark, small brown mustache, full face, broad-shouldered, dressed in a dark jacket and trousers, black cap with a peak, and he had nothing in his hands. All right. Now, this was interesting to me because Lipsky, what does that mean?

• 3:56:22Speaker 01

  You, you asked me that. The reason I looked away from you is because I was Googling it. Well, don't worry because I'm going to tell you about it. Oh, good. So now, according to casebook.org, which I linked in part one, I believe in the show notes, but I'll do it again here. There was an article posted in Ripperologist Magazine, which I did not know was a thing. Ooh. But apparently it's like a very big periodical in the Ripperology space. We love to hear it. This, this article was written by Robert McLaughlin, and in it, he talks about what this Lipsky could mean. I was curious myself, and this article really, it made me think. So I recommend reading this entire article, and again, I'm going to post the link to it in the show notes. But basically, it's a discussion about what exactly Lipsky means,

• 3:57:07Speaker 01

  and if that is even what Israel Schwartz said. Like, maybe he was mistaken. Like, maybe he heard it wrong. Yeah. Maybe, or excuse me, not what he said, but what he heard. Yeah. So the year prior, in 1887, this is very interesting. On Burner Street, which was very close to the scene, a man named Israel Lipsky. Oh, bitch. Murdered a woman who was in the same lodging house as he was staying. Her name was Miriam Angel, and he murdered her by pouring nitric acid down her throat. Jesus. It's a wild story, and I, I went into it for like an hour. I'm going to cover that story in more detail by itself because it deserves an entire episode.

• 3:57:48Speaker 01

  But he confessed to it and was hanged on August 22nd, 1887. Damn. This was only a year earlier. So did Lipsky start to mean murder? Well, so his real, his real surname was actually Lebolsk, but he changed it when he arrived in London. A lot of people did that. No one really knows why. He was Jewish, and since antisemitism was rampant around this time. Yeah, you had mentioned that. People think like, maybe he thought it sounded less Jewish, Lipsky, but it was a massive case that was everywhere in all the papers, and people had it on their minds for sure. Now, one possibility for this was that this man shouted Lipsky at his friend across the street and meant it as like a verb, almost.

• 3:58:30Speaker 01

  According to the Complete Jack the Ripper by Donald Rumbolo, which again, I really love, men would often say these things during to their, like during arguments with their wives, like domestic disputes. They'd say things like, "I'll whitechapel you" after these murders. Yeah. My god. It was very common thing in London, I guess, at the time. People would take events and use them as like verbs, kind of thing. I guess we kind of still do that to this day. Yeah, and I guess then it was just like a little more like. Prominent. Gratuitous, I suppose, but, uh, so maybe this man was trying to harm Elizabeth and yelled Lipsky, like, "I'm gonna Lipsky you." Or possibly, he was hurling an insult to Israel Schwartz.

• 3:59:15Speaker 01

  Again, antisemitism was rampant, and maybe he saw Israel looking their way and not minding his own business, and he yelled Lipsky, the name of a really infamous Jewish murderer, at Schwartz as an insult. Hmm. Because that, I mean, like, especially at this time during the Jack the Ripper murders, Jewish people were being, they were in danger at this point. Like, people, so him yelling that would have been like a threat, and it could have definitely been an insult. And Israel Schwartz himself was like, "He could have looked at me and been like, 'I think you're Jewish, and I'm just gonna yell this nasty insult at you.'" Jesus. Like, to get him to go away. Right.

• 3:59:57Speaker 01

  So that could be something that, in which all of these are horrifying so far, to use Lipsky as a verb, first of all, and then to just like hurl an anti, you know, Semitic, like, basic, like insult at somebody. Right. Or, this was something I had wondered, this next one, and I was glad to see it questioned in that article as well, because my initial thought was that maybe he wasn't saying Lipsky at all. Maybe he was saying Lizzie or something like that. Oh, yeah. Her name is Elizabeth. She was called Liz sometimes. Yup. It seems to me, when I read this incident and I read the report, it felt personal to me. This man was dragging her out on the street. Right.

• 4:00:39Speaker 01

  And that doesn't feel jacked to me. It feels very domestic violence to me. Michael Kidney, perhaps? Could be. The guy that she was with that was abusive? Was he trying to get her to go back home with him somewhere, and she was refusing? Because again, he's dragging her into the middle of the street. He's not dragging her into an alley. Yeah. And because when she was refusing, this man pushed her to the ground. Oh. And I don't know, it just feels weirdly personal. That feels domestic violence-y. I absolutely agree. Yeah, she also didn't call out for help. Like, I feel like she would have had a stranger been assaulting her. She screamed, but it even says, "Not very loudly," and no specific, like, "Help me" screams. Right, and that, that scream that she did let out could have just been like in pain.

• 4:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it could have just been like a completely involuntary. Right. Yell that she just fell down to the ground, like you said, in pain. And maybe he yelled Lizzie, or something like that. Yeah. Or even yelled Lipsky at her, like, who knows? Like, Lizzie, to me, seems like it's like an interesting thought at the very least. I agree. And Robert McLaughlin, in that article, also said that, so I was glad to see somebody else thought that. But all to say, the Lipsky incident happened at 12:45 a.m., and by 1 a.m., she was dead. Okay. So this was 15 minutes later, she was dead. Now, the Matthew Packer statement, which was the one that, um, he was the grocer at the greengrocer. They came in, he was like, "Buy her, give her all the grapes she would like."

• 4:02:07Speaker 01

  That statement fell apart as well. Oh. He had originally said he saw nothing and no one strange. But now, he was claiming the grape story now that a reward was being offered. And, um, the police were not offering a reward. They're refusing to, which I understand. They were like hesitant to do that because they were worried people would do these things. Which clearly they do. But private citizens were offering rewards, and like, media was. Also, her postmortem showed that she did not have any grape in her system. Oh. And his statement is like, "Buy her any grape she wants." And she was like, "I want those grapes," and was like all excited. When you were explaining that, I was like, "I've never really met anybody that was like that stoked about grapes."

• 4:02:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was London in 1888, so I think grapes were like, that would have been a great thing to get for her. I mean, that, I don't think she's eating that grape. So I think grapes would have been like, "Holy shit, I can have some fresh grapes." Like, sure, because she probably didn't have the money to buy them herself. That's true. You know, so that wasn't too crazy for me. It was just more like, that grape story along with the, the myth of her holding on to like a bunch of grapes in her hand. Yeah, it's just a little, it's such a, over the years, like, the weirdest things get added to things like this. And it's like, it's weird by itself. You don't have to. The whole thing. Add grapes to it. The whole thing is weird without the grapes, I promise you.

• 4:03:29Speaker 01

  Now, Dr. George Phillips and Dr. Blackwell were tasked with her postmortem examination. The cause of death was listed as violent hemorrhage from severance of blood vessels in the neck by a sharp instrument. She was not mutilated any further. Okay. And they believed that this was because Jack the Ripper was interrupted. It says, and this is a quote from the autopsy, "The right hand was lying on the chest and was smeared inside and out with blood. It was quite open. The left hand was lying on the ground and was partially closed, and it contained a small packet of cashes wrapped in tissue paper." Those are breath mints. "Now, there were no rings or marks of rings on her fingers.

• 4:04:11Speaker 01

  The appearance of the face was, quote, placid, and the mouth was slightly open. There was a checkered scarf, silk scarf around her neck, and the bow of which was turned to the left side and pulled tightly. There was a long incision in the neck, which exactly corresponded with the lower border of the scarf. The lower edge of the scarf was slightly frayed, as if by a sharp knife. The incision on the neck commenced on the left side, 2.5 inches below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it. It nearly severed the vessels on that side." Also, what's interesting is there's a lot of times in the Jack the Ripper cases where his knife must be extraordinarily sharp because it frays fabric that it's next to. Oh, wow.

• 4:04:56Speaker 01

  That happens in a lot of these. So that, to me, says it's like a very sharp knife. Which, a medical examiner might use. Which I'm just saying. Now, the next day, the Star newspaper reported, quote, "A man, when passing through Church Lane at about half past 1:00, saw a man sitting on a doorstep and wiping his hands. As everyone is on the lookout for the murderer, the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He's described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat. If you remember, William Marshall, the random witness, saw Elizabeth stride with a man wearing a sailor hat as well." Oh, honey, I remember quite well. Oh, you remember.

• 4:05:41Speaker 01

  That's just a little interesting thing, didn't really get followed up on. All right. Now, next day, Michael Kidney appeared at the police station himself. Oh, did he? Drunk as hell, and told them, "If he was the policeman on beat when Elizabeth's body was found, he would kill himself." What? Okay, Michael. Like, wow. I'd be like, "You didn't have to come here to say that." Yeah, they were just like, "Thank you. Okay, have a good day," I suppose. Cool of you to profess. Yeah, he was having a real moment. Now, here, I don't know if I buy Elizabeth stride as a Ripper victim. Oh. Is where, is, is my ending thing here. "Her injuries were done, according to Dr. Phillips, in seconds.

• 4:06:24Speaker 01

  That throat cut, he said, could have taken less than five seconds." Boom, done. The throat was quick. And he said it was done with a blunter, more beveled knife, so that the side of it could have been sharp, like razor sharp, but it was blunted at the top, he believed. Ah. So not a pointed, sharp, 6 to 8 inch knife that was very clear in the other killings. Uh huh. So, this is strange to me that he would use a different knife. Right. And. It just, I don't know, nothing. I know that like, he could have been interrupted and I, that's why I'm not saying that I, that she's definitely not a Ripper victim, because maybe

• 4:07:04Speaker 01

  he was interrupted. Maybe somebody came, maybe it was the first guy, Louis, when he was on his, with his horse and cart, and maybe the horse coming into the yard scared him and he ran away. Yup. And then, we have a, this is the double event. So, within, I mean, so close to this one, he goes crazy on another victim. Maybe he didn't get to. Maybe because he didn't get to. That is the, that's the thing that a lot of people hang on to, that that must be why Catherine Eddos was so brutalized. But then at the same time, we're talking about Whitechapel. Yeah, and it's like, I don't know. Elizabeth, to me, I'm like, I don't know. I, I wonder if she

• 4:07:49Speaker 01

  was killed by, Elizabeth Stride was killed by someone she knew. You think? I don't know. I'm not saying it's definitely it, but to me, it feels a little more like it. I don't know if she, I would definitively place her in the canonical five. I don't know if I would keep her. I know she's in there, but I don't know about that one. I'll have to get back to you after I read the 602 books that you recommended. Yeah, there you go. Get, get all your reading in and then you let me know. Okay, sounds good. Talk to you in a few years. I'm not, I'm not super alone in this feeling. There are people who don't believe that Elizabeth Stride is one of them. But I, you know, I'm just saying, I think it's a little strange. I guess, here Catherine Eddos, and then you can tell me. So, 1:30 a.m., after the Elizabeth Stride,

• 4:08:34Speaker 01

  Elizabeth Stride has been found, the scene has been cleared. At 1:30 a.m., police constable for the city police, Edward Watkins, was walking his beat, and he walked directly through Mitre Square in Aldgate. Nothing was out of the ordinary. This is his regular beat, that he would just, you know, because they would, that, that beat they would take is like the same path, you know? Things were, you know, as chaotic as they normally would be at this time. Couldn't see and all that kind of shit. Yeah, all that fun stuff. But 14 minutes later, 14 minutes later, he loops back around to walk that same beat again. This time, when he passed through, he immediately saw a woman lying on her back on the ground. He had just walked through this. Right.

• 4:09:18Speaker 01

  He used his lantern for light, and when he shone it over her, it was clear that she had been brutally murdered. Her clothing was intentionally and aggressively cut open to expose her entire body, like, cut open. She was soaked from head to toe in blood. Her torso had been eviscerated, cut open from rectum to sternum. Yes, I said rectum to sternum, and not groin to sternum. Her intestines were slashed and cut. A two-foot piece of intestines were laid on the ground, cut out of her body, and laid on the ground, but next to her, between her body and her arm.

• 4:09:58Speaker 01

  Another larger piece of the intestines was draped over her right shoulder. And if you remember, Annie Chapman. Same thing. Draped over the shoulder. A clear connection there. Now, she had a deep laceration across her throat, and her face was slashed several times. The killer had also cut through part of her right ear, like, cut it off. He had just walked, like, this guy had just walked through here, and now he loops around not 15 minutes later, and this kind of damage was already done? That is insane. Like, that's the thing. It's not like he walked through and he found Elizabeth Stride with her throat cut, something that could have happened within seconds. Right. This is like. And a major surgery, but like, not for surgery.

• 4:10:41Speaker 01

  When you find out what he did, like, this alone is outrageous. When you find out the details here, I have no idea how he did all this in that time. It's truly wild. Like, is Jack the Ripper a person? I know. He seems like a phantom. And I can't imagine what this guy must have felt like the patrolman. He, it must have been like an alternate reality. You walk, you loop back around and you're like, what? How, like, how did this happen? Like, how did I miss this the first time around? Yeah. So, she was killed in a corner by an alley. And looking at a surveyor map of the murder site, I saw that there was literally like, two lamps in the entire square, just two lamps. One was across the street, but far away, and one was around the corner, and probably would have

• 4:11:21Speaker 01

  been like, no help for lighting purposes where she was. And next to her were three empty homes, and across the way, like, literally across the street, was the home of patrol, police constable, Richard Pierce, who was asleep in his home at the time of the murder, and could have seen it from his bedroom window. Stop. If you looked out his bedroom, and if you look at the surveyor's map, I'll see if we can post it, you can see, it was right there. Which, again, makes you wonder, like, did somebody know that? That's the thing. I wonder if they knew that he lived there, and they did that to be like, wake up. Right out your door. Yeah, like, look out your window. I just did it right under your, your bedroom window. Exactly.

• 4:12:02Speaker 01

  And I think that was part of it. Now, nearby was a warehouse, Kelley and Tongs, where a night watchman and former Metropolitan Police Force officer named George James Morris was sweeping. Watkins ran in there and told him there was another woman in the square. He said she was cut to pieces, and that her intestines were tossed, quote, "in a heap over her shoulder", and that he was like, "I need help". Like, you're coming. Yeah. I think, like, the direct quote is, he ran in there and was like, "For God's sake, man, help me." And he was like, "What? I don't know what you need." What's going on? Now, Morris followed him out, and upon seeing the body, he whistled for help himself. He told Watkins he had not seen or heard anything, and that his warehouse door had been open while he swept for the last few minutes. That's crazy.

• 4:12:48Speaker 01

  And two police officers showed up after their call for assistance. One of them was PC James Harvey. Harvey showed up and he was shocked, not only just at the scene in front of him, but because he, he had actually walked to Mitre Square at 1:40, and had seen nothing. What? He had seen nothing at all. This, she was found at 1:45. Right. He had walked there at 1:40, seen nothing at all. Harvey was there, like, literally there five minutes before and saw nothing, and he was adamant, "I saw nothing here." What the fuck, dude? Now, according to Jack the Ripper Scotland Yard investigates, this would mean Harvey was literally within yards while Jack was murdering this woman.

• 4:13:33Speaker 01

  And heard nothing. And heard nothing. Saw nothing. You would think, too, that he, like, he would have heard even like a Like a scuffle? Like, when he took the knife out. Yeah. Or like. I think he just, he severs that windpipe so quick, that it's just, he can, but for him to do it in the dark, he does this shit in the dark, and he's meticulous. That's the other thing. The fact that he's doing this in the dark, and this is a, kind of a crude question to ask, but do organs make a lot of noise when they're being taken out of the body? Like, I would think that, like, when you take somebody's intestines out and slump them over their shoulder, that that would make some kind of noise. It would. That's the thing, because also, like, the, the mesentery was cut oftentimes

• 4:14:14Speaker 01

  off of these intestines. The mesentery is what attaches it to the abdomen. It's this, like, thick, rough piece of skin, almost, like, that it's, you have to, when we would do an autopsy, part of it is you remove the bowels. And you would start at the bottom of the intestines, and you would basically flay away that mesentery, so you could pull the intestines out. Otherwise, you're tearing and ripping them away from that mesentery. Okay. So, for him to be able to plop some next to her, and also fling some above her shoulder. Right. He had to take that sharp blade, and he had to know to cut that mesentery away. He had to know it was there. And if you do it. He had to find it. And this is very, this is gonna sound crude, but it's just reality. You know how when you

• 4:14:59Speaker 01

  are like, when you're cutting wrapping paper, and your scissors, you get that nice, like, whoop, and it just glides? The way we would do it is, you, once you get that one cut on the mesentery, you can pull the intestines and glide that blade across it and pull them all out, until you get to the end. Okay. And, yeah, so, it's for him to know to do that, because otherwise, it would take him a lot longer, because he'd be ripping and pulling. You'd hear that, and it's hard. It's, it's, it's not easy to do. Like, a lot of times when we would do an autopsy, if you were gonna not use a blade, because there were some autopsy technicians that just preferred to use their hands for a lot of things. That's a red flag. Just is the way it is. A red flag.

• 4:15:43Speaker 01

  There's some things that are easier to use your hands, because you don't want to get a blade lost somewhere and cut yourself, like, because sometimes you're just like, blindly having to cut. You don't have to go like, super into detail anymore. I'm an empath, and I can feel all of this. But sometimes, they would use their hands to rip something away from something else, and it makes a very clear sound. Okay. A squish sound, at the very least. I said no more detail. And two, it takes, I mean, I worked with, like, big guys. It takes them muscle to get that out. And that's them in a well-lit area with a very easy leverage of leaning over a table while we have, like, you know? Yeah. This guy's doing it on the ground. Could you do this? Have you done this? What the? Can you do this? Like, rip things away with your hands?

• 4:16:27Speaker 01

  Can you do the, like, take it from the mezzanine? The mezzanine, not the balcony, the mezzanine. Just go see a movie. Yeah, the, cutting the mesentery away from the, the intestines, and like, removing the bowels was, is one of the things they do, like, when you first start working there. At least, where I work, it's like, that's your, like, hey, you're new, you get to do the bowels. And it's like, oh, thank you. Because it's like, once you learn how to do it, it becomes very second nature. But they make you do it at first? Because it's, I mean, it's, it's like, one of the more foul jobs of, of all the evisceration jobs. That's kind of like when I worked at a pizza place, and they made us eat an anchovy for It's the exact same thing. It's exactly like that. It's, because you, like. Same deal.

• 4:17:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the, I know, and all these, I, I, this is gonna be really gross, but hi, we're in Jack the Ripper, and, and I'm an autopsy technician, so it's gonna get weird. In a lot of reports, they. Oh, keep it that weird. Oh, I'll keep it that weird. Yeah. They, they've mentioned the intestines, obviously. That's a very important thing, that it was ripped out, that it was over her shoulder. In a lot of them, they mention, like, and there was, like, fecal matter, like, you know, on the intestine. Like, they, they do it, like, it's like, this is a strange thing. And I'm like, well, that's where it is. Like, I'm like, if you pull someone's intestines out, that's gonna be there. Like, this isn't a weird thing. Yeah, we all poop. That's really not something to note.

• 4:17:53Speaker 02

  That's where the poop goes.

• 4:17:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:17:55Speaker 02

  So I just think it's so weird. I'm like, you don't have to do that.

• 4:17:57Speaker 01

  No, that's also just like that. That's rude.

• 4:17:59Speaker 02

  We know what intestines have inside of them. We don't need to know.

• 4:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, he didn't do that on purpose. That was just part of the intestines.

• 4:18:05Speaker 02

  He probably like, wouldn't have wanted to do that on purpose.

• 4:18:08Speaker 01

  Don't they tell you like, don't cut the poop pipe?

• 4:18:09Speaker 02

  Don't cut the poop pipe, kid.

• 4:18:11Speaker 01

  But that, you know, that is just that part, the ripping out the intestines so fucking quickly and doing it with such like ease and with no, and not even just doing that. If he just did that, I'd be impressed, but he does a shit ton of other stuff in this small period of time with no light either.

• 4:18:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:18:33Speaker 01

  And it's really wild.

• 4:18:35Speaker 02

  But to my point, then, there would have been a noise.

• 4:18:38Speaker 01

  There would have been a noise. Exactly. So I think there would have been noises of some kind, even just like, you know, it's like, it's gooey in there. It's like, things make sloshing noises.

• 4:18:49Speaker 02

  That's what I was picturing, to be honest.

• 4:18:51Speaker 01

  And ripping noises. There's ripping noises. In fact, one of the

• 4:18:54Speaker 02

  Oh, no, you just, no, just, ah, keep it to yourself, honey.

• 4:18:57Speaker 01

  When you remove the pelvic block or the, or you know, the thoracic block, whatever you're removing, the abdominal block, I should say. When you are able to get it away from the sides of the body, it makes a suction noise.

• 4:19:13Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 4:19:13Speaker 01

  And that was always called like, the noise of victory, because it means that you, you are able to actually lift the block out, because it's hard work. It's like, hard to get that.

• 4:19:23Speaker 02

  That noise I just made was actually involuntary. I'm not kidding. It just came out.

• 4:19:27Speaker 01

  That was the noise of victory for me, because I terrified you.

• 4:19:30Speaker 02

  I don't even want an autopsy anymore.

• 4:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:19:32Speaker 02

  I'm gonna put in my will to not autopsy me.

• 4:19:35Speaker 01

  It's a good thing. I promise.

• 4:19:36Speaker 02

  I'm gonna write, it was probably my fault. Don't autopsy me.

• 4:19:39Speaker 01

  It was probably my fault. I like that. So yeah, wild. Now, Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown, the city surgeon, was called to the scene at 2:18 a.m. He noted that she appeared to have not been raped and she was still very warm.

• 4:19:53Speaker 02

  Can I, can I ask, how would they even know if she had been raped? Because he slashed her from groin.

• 4:19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:19:58Speaker 02

  I know, from buttocks to everywhere.

• 4:20:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, to sternum. And yeah, I don't know. I'm gonna be honest with that one. I don't know what they were using as a, a yardstick there, but, but I'll, hey, Dr. Brown said no. They all said, none of them appeared to have been sexually assaulted.

• 4:20:18Speaker 02

  Okay, but yeah, but they were sexually mutilated.

• 4:20:20Speaker 01

  But they were sexually, that's the thing. And they all obviously are like, they were very much sexually mutilated. They just weren't like raped in the, like, you know, I don't even know how you would say that. Like, in the actual sense of the word rape, I suppose.

• 4:20:35Speaker 02

  Sure. Well, and realistically, he wouldn't have had time with everything else that he did.

• 4:20:39Speaker 01

  That's the thing. He definitely wouldn't have. Now, a few police constables looked around the scene and around the body, and right next to the body, some buttons from boots, a metal button, a thimble, and a mustard tin with two pawn tickets were in it, were found. One of the tickets was signed with the surname Kelly. And at this point, they were like, we don't know who this person is, so this is the only clue we have. Now, she was brought to Golden Lane Mortuary and she was stripped and washed. Now, obviously, she was not identified right away, because she had no identification on her. So the press, the press published the details of what they found in her pockets.

• 4:21:17Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:21:18Speaker 01

  Because they were thinking, you know, hopefully somebody will be like, oh, I know that.

• 4:21:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:21:23Speaker 01

  Who carried that stuff around all the time.

• 4:21:25Speaker 02

  Shop would be like, she pawned here.

• 4:21:27Speaker 01

  That's what this is. In, in the paper, so they all included all of this, which along with wearing, they said she was wearing basically everything that she owned on her body at the time.

• 4:21:36Speaker 02

  Oh, she probably had to.

• 4:21:37Speaker 01

  And she was also carrying pretty much everything she owned at the time. Now, so they wrote this, that this was in her pockets and on her person. A piece of string, a common white handkerchief with a red border, a matchbox with cotton on it, a white linen pocket containing a white bone handled table knife, very blunt with no blood on it, two short clay pipes, a red cigarette case with red metal fittings, a check pocket containing five pieces of soap, a small tin box containing tea and sugar, a portion of a pair of spectacles, a three-cornered check handkerchief, and a large white linen pocket containing a small comb, a red mitten, and a ball of worsted. Don't know what that is.

• 4:22:19Speaker 02

  Wursted?

• 4:22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22:20Speaker 02

  I'll look it up.

• 4:22:20Speaker 01

  She was also wearing, like I said, a ton of clothing, many, many layers. She was wearing a black fur trimmed jacket with an apron tied over the whole thing, a chintz skirt with three flounces, a brown lincey dress bodice with a black velvet collar, a gray petticoat, a green alpaca skirt, an old blue skirt with a red flounce, a white calico chemise, a men's white vest with buttons down the front, men's lace up boots, a neck handkerchief, and a black straw bonnet that was lined and trimmed with green and black velvet. Most of it had been cut right through and was bloody on all the edges.

• 4:22:57Speaker 02

  Which then again, tells you how sharp that knife was to cut through all of that.

• 4:23:00Speaker 01

  And not with a blunt top, because you would need a sharp knife to get that cut.

• 4:23:04Speaker 02

  Right. So then again, that kind of helps your point.

• 4:23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, because why is he switching knives?

• 4:23:10Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:23:11Speaker 01

  Like, he wouldn't kill one person with a beveled edged knife, like a blunt knife, and then just switch knives for somebody else?

• 4:23:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think so either.

• 4:23:19Speaker 01

  That doesn't make sense.

• 4:23:20Speaker 02

  By the way, worsted is a high quality type of wool yarn.

• 4:23:23Speaker 01

  Oh, that's good to know. Thank you.

• 4:23:24Speaker 02

  No problem.

• 4:23:25Speaker 01

  Now, with these details that were published, a man named John Kelly came forward, saying he believed it may have been the woman that he had been living with for seven years. And he said, her name is Catherine Eddos. She also went by Kate. Since we have been together for this long, sometimes people call her Miss Kelly.

• 4:23:44Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 4:23:45Speaker 01

  So Catherine was born April 14th, 1842, in Graisley Green in the West Midlands. She was one of 11 children. Her parents were Catherine and George Eddos. Her mother was a cook at the Peacock Inn, and her father was a tin plate varnisher at the Old Hall Works. I looked this up, because I was like, what's a tin plate varnisher? My God, I just went on down like a rabbit hole. Like, it was outrageous.

• 4:24:09Speaker 02

  I was about this morning. I was like, so last night, I looked this thing up, and then I found, and I was like, we haven't had coffee yet, girl.

• 4:24:16Speaker 01

  Can't stop, won't stop. I cannot. So eventually, because I was looking this up, and he eventually moved the family to London, because they were bringing in stamping machines to take over the human tin jobs at the Old Hall, like, some of the jobs. So I was like, what? So tin plate workers made beautiful tin products, actually. Like, when you see those beautiful trays or plates with intricate designs all over them from the Victorian era.

• 4:24:41Speaker 02

  Oh, pretty much loves those.

• 4:24:43Speaker 01

  Painted designs, and she does, and like, painted designs and like, gold leaf and such like that. That's what it was. So George was described as a varnisher, and I found that this meant he worked in the area where the beautiful product would come to him. He would apply several coats of varnish to it, stove dry after each coat, for varying periods of time until it was all set. Then it would move to painters and all that good stuff to do, like, the gold leaf and all that.

• 4:25:08Speaker 02

  Very cool.

• 4:25:08Speaker 01

  Interesting jobs, they were.

• 4:25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:25:10Speaker 01

  I was just very interested.

• 4:25:11Speaker 02

  That is cool.

• 4:25:12Speaker 01

  The stamping portion was like, dangerous as fuck, too, like, doing the stamp outs, because it was like, they were doing these tiny cutouts, and if your finger was in there, you could like, rip your finger off. Yeah. So that was interesting. So in 1848, the family had moved to London, where he could get a new job in the same kind of industry. They actually moved to Bermondsey, which is funny, considering I just covered the Bermondsey horror recently. Four more children were born to George and Catherine, but only two survived. Catherine attended a school called Downgate Charity School, specifically created to train poor children to just be able to get by and stay off the streets.

• 4:25:50Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 4:25:51Speaker 01

  It wasn't a school where she would learn to, you know, be something great or get out of her situation. It was teaching her to have the skills she could use to just keep her head above water. Because she was a girl, she wasn't taught math or anything that was actually going to aid her in any kind of business venture.

• 4:26:06Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 4:26:07Speaker 01

  She was just taught sewing in the Bible, essentially.

• 4:26:10Speaker 02

  Like, at this point, it's like, don't you want to create more jobs?

• 4:26:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's like, girls can do it. I promise you. Like, I mean, look around.

• 4:26:17Speaker 02

  You'll have a lot less deaths to investigate.

• 4:26:20Speaker 01

  Now, she was, Catherine was tiny, adorable, with curly auburn hair, and apparently a sweet and lovely human. Everyone called her Chick, because she was so tiny. And she loved to sing. This singing voice was something she carried into adulthood, and people commented on her beautiful voice her entire life.

• 4:26:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 4:26:38Speaker 01

  When Catherine was 13, her mother died of tuberculosis, and 13 years old. And her father died two years later.

• 4:26:45Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 4:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Unfortunately, this meant the younger siblings were all split up and put into workhouses in schools like the ones Catherine was attending. The older siblings were trying to make sure their siblings were, you know, could keep, basically just get good work, stay out of trouble, like, they were trying to become the parents. They were, her older siblings were able to get her, Catherine, in with her aunt Elizabeth and Uncle William, who was her father's brother.

• 4:27:10Speaker 02

  Oh, good.

• 4:27:11Speaker 01

  They were happy to take her in. They were like, we're gonna get her work as like, a domestic servant or something, in Wolverhampton. She was kind, she was sweet, she acted as a surrogate, and this is Aunt Elizabeth, acting like a surrogate mother for Catherine, like, it was all great.

• 4:27:26Speaker 02

  Good.

• 4:27:27Speaker 01

  And she was in a nice, clean living space, living in a nice home. There were opportunities. The home was on Bilston Street, and everyone around the community came to know and really loved Catherine. She was restless, though. She wasn't the kind of gal to just settle into a boring job and be content. She was definitely destined to do something more, but was obviously just not given every opportunity to do it. And it feels like that is really the thing with a lot of these women. I've said it before.

• 4:27:55Speaker 02

  It's the theme throughout.

• 4:27:57Speaker 01

  They're restless. They're not content to just sit.

• 4:27:59Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 4:28:00Speaker 01

  Now, around this time, when she was 16, she met a man named Thomas Conway. He was from Kilgiver, Lewisburg, County Mayo in Ireland, and he was older than her, and a soldier in the Royal Irish Regiment. They took a liking to each other, but nothing blossomed until later.

• 4:28:16Speaker 02

  Aw.

• 4:28:16Speaker 01

  She got a job at her father's old place of work at Old Hall. She was a scour, which meant she was there just to sweep and mop up after the workers. She was fired very quickly for allegedly stealing.

• 4:28:28Speaker 02

  Allegedly.

• 4:28:29Speaker 01

  Allegedly. This was all it took. Her aunt and uncle kicked her out of the house.

• 4:28:33Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 4:28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I don't know how much, how allegedly it was. It feels like there might have been some, uh, might have known that that happened, but you know. She moved in with another uncle, Thomas Eddos in Birmingham, and she lasted even less time there, and ended up moving back to Wolverhampton with her grandfather, who got her a job as a tin stamper. So really staying in that tin business.

• 4:28:54Speaker 02

  They love tin.

• 4:28:55Speaker 01

  They loved tin in that family. So basically, she was the only, she was only gonna be using, she was there to use the machine to emboss the design on stuff, like I talked about earlier. It's a kind of dangerous job.

• 4:29:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:29:08Speaker 01

  Literally only a couple of weeks later, she quit and went back to Birmingham.

• 4:29:13Speaker 02

  Oh, it was probably a lot.

• 4:29:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is where she moved in with none other than her old crush, Thomas Conway.

• 4:29:19Speaker 02

  Oh, my goodness.

• 4:29:20Speaker 01

  The flame flickered up. At this time, he had been pensioned from the military because he had gotten sick, but he was healthier now. So now the two of them got together and they started traveling all over together. He made and sold chapbooks, which were tiny little versions of literature and poetry books. They were usually handbound and comprised of like of many different sources from the inside. Other than this, they started making money, uh, creating gallows ballads. What is that? They wrote and printed songs and poems about murderers who were about to be hanged. Oh shit, that's very ironic. So they traveled to different jails and literally sold these to people watching a public execution. And apparently they made some good money at it. Wow.

• 4:30:04Speaker 01

  And there were a lot of hangings at this time. So it was like, the couple were not officially married, but Catherine went by Catherine Conway and would describe Thomas as her husband. Okay. She seemed very in love. Oh. The couple was very intense and Catherine got TC tattooed on her forearm in blue ink. Are you shitting me? I love it. She was a rebel. They had two children, two daughters named Annie and Catherine Anne. I didn't even realize, sorry, that tattoos could happen. Yeah, it was like a thing. Yeah. Back then. Now, in 1866, they actually did a gallows ballad for her cousin, Christopher Charles Robinson, who was hanged for murdering his fiance in cold blood. Oh.

• 4:30:44Speaker 01

  In 1868, they had a son named Thomas. In this same year, they outlawed public executions, which completely took away the need for gallows ballads and boom, source of income, done. Depleted. Gone. They moved to Surrey around this time and she took up work as a laundress. This is when things got bad. The family was in and out of workhouses now around these times and money was not coming in at all. August 1873, while living in St. George's workhouse, Catherine had another baby boy named Alfred George. Things went from bad to worse. Things were bleak now and both Thomas and Catherine were drinking heavily. Oh no. It seemed the only way to cope with the horrid times that they were living in.

• 4:31:25Speaker 01

  But Thomas was an asshole when he drank. The real Thomas came out and he was violent and would beat Catherine when he was drunk. Oh no. Yeah. They broke up. And he kept Thomas and Alfred George and she took Annie and Catherine. So they split the kids. Okay. She asked if she could live with, um, her aunt Elizabeth and Uncle William again for the time being, but they said absolutely not because you fucked up hard when you were living with us and you're not coming back. Okay, allegedly. Very, uh, tough love. She was on the streets now in London and she was, and I think the kids were kind of like staying with friends a lot of the time. Yeah. Uh, her kids had like very, you know, um, they had very, uh, conflicting things to say. And one of them felt one way about her and the other one felt the other way.

• 4:32:09Speaker 01

  Okay. And these were her two daughters that she got to keep. Yeah. Uh, but they were with friends a lot. I don't think they were with Catherine all that much. Now, she was on the streets of London now. She was drinking even more heavily and this was really the beginning of the end. So she began getting arrested for drunken disorderly behavior, a lot, and started sex work as a means of getting even just enough money to put a roof over her head. It's kind of unfortunately a similar tale to a lot of the victims. It was during this time that she found herself chatting with a man at Spitalfields Market. His name was John Kelly. Yeah. And he had recently become a widow. He was, he had, uh, lost his wife. He was kind, he was sweet, and he just wanted to make her happy. Okay. He was also sober. Great.

• 4:32:51Speaker 01

  And the reason he was sober was he just didn't think it was worth spending money on alcohol. Because he was like, I don't have a lot, so I'm not going to spend it on alcohol. For this, well, that's the thing, right? He was like, and he said, I'm working my ass off for precious little. I'm not going to waste it on drinks. That was his whole thing. Mom. Sadly, she was still kind of telling people her name was Kate Conway, even when people started seeing her and John Kelly together. And people would be like, oh, Mrs. Kelly. And she was like, it's Conway. And it was like, eek. But I think she was really in love with Thomas Conway. It was a very toxic situation. Well, and they had spent years together. They have four children. You can't help who you love. And I think she was just not willing to give up that relationship, like the idea of it again. Yeah. Well, and I mean, she was newly with this Edo's man. So she's probably like,

• 4:33:36Speaker 01

  I'm not like, no. Yeah, like she, she basically, she would answer to Kelly sometimes, but she would kind of flip back and forth. Like she would answer, which again, a lot of these women too, and a lot of people back then, a lot of aliases they were going by. So I think that was just another way to have different names too. Right. So she was also suffering from Bright's disease. What is that? Now, we would call it nephritis and it's an inflammation of the nephrons and the glomeruli, which help the kidneys produce urine. They're part of the kidneys. So she would have probably been suffering from a lot of symptoms associated with it, including shortness of breath, back and flank pain, fluid retention in her hands and her face. It would have been like, kind of tough. Huh.

• 4:34:19Speaker 01

  Like exhaustion. Yeah. So she, and I had no idea that one of them was suffering from that. So she was sick. Now, that's just interesting. Hold on to that for me late, until later. You mean, put it in my back pocket? Put it in your back pocket. So they moved in together at 55 Flower and Dean Street, at Cooney's Lodging House, I was gonna say. It was rough. She wore everything she owned because things were always being stolen and she was worried that something would get stolen. She wasn't too hot. I think it was pretty, well, this was, um, kind of the beginning of fall at this point, I suppose, like end of summer. Warm and not too hot. Now that's, again, that's why she was found with so many layers, because she was wearing them all. Now, the deputy of the 55 Flower and Dean Street place, Frederick

• 4:35:03Speaker 01

  William Wilkinson, said that Catherine was, quote, "A very jolly woman, woman." She was described as a very jolly woman by a lot of people, very jovial. And confirmed, he confirmed that she and John Kelly lived like they were married. Later, he would be the one to give John Kelly an airtight alibi for being at the lodging home at night, the evening that Catherine was murdered. He was like, no, he was here all night. No, and I don't think he would have done anything. They drifted together, they drifted like together and solo in and out of workhouses and lodging houses. Sometimes they would be staying together, sometimes they wouldn't. They would spend a lot of time apart, but just drift back together again. Or as John described it later, quote, "bathedrode together a lot." She would often beg and borrow money

• 4:35:46Speaker 01

  from her daughters who were now grown. They resented it, having been part of the downward spiral that she had taken when they were young. So that was a difficult relationship that she was navigating. Um, in the summer of 1888, they were, they were common law married at this point. Yeah. And it only takes like 10 years, right? I think it's less, isn't it like seven? Oh, I think you might be right, actually. Yeah, it's seven, because they were together seven years. So that makes sense. Um, it was this summer in 1888 that they walked 40 miles together with tons of other workers from London to Kent to do hop picking, which would be used to make beer. This was like a huge job. A lot of people from London and Whitechapel did this. They would go do the hop picking and they would make some extra money. You know, this was a nice reprieve

• 4:36:31Speaker 01

  from the horrific air and conditions that they were living in in the city. That 40 mile walk was a nice reprieve. Exactly. But once they got, exactly. It's true. But this was the first time that they were apparently together, like together, together all the time and could not escape each other. And they were not getting along that great. Well, I was gonna say, maybe that's why they weren't together, together so much. Exactly. So they ended up, they did it. They, they made a little money, not a lot, ended up coming back. They left September 27th without a lot to show for it, but you know, they split up the night they arrived back at London, didn't split up like breakup, they just kind of like went their separate ways. Whoa. Exactly. John Kelly went to stay at the lodging house on Flower and Dean Street

• 4:37:15Speaker 01

  and Catherine ended up, um, having to go to a couple of workhouses and do manual labor for her stays. Uh, apparently, September 28th, she told the manager of Mile End Workhouse, quote, "I have come back to earn the reward offered for the apprehension of the Whitechapel murderer. I think I know him." Oh. And they were just like, okay. Like they were like, who is he? And he's like, she's like, I don't know. And then they were like, be careful not to become a victim of him out there. And she said, oh, no fear of that. Oh no. And this was on September 28th. That's wild. And I'm sorry, what day was she killed? And this was basically, this was the day before. So, and she was like, oh, no fear of that. How strange is that? And there's a couple other things that like, like weird lineups like that.

• 4:38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I think, um, I'm, I want to say it was Annie Chapman that was talking in the kitchen of a lodging house about how scary it was and how it was, yeah. Now, September 29th, um, John Kelly and Catherine met for breakfast. They had breakfast together, kind of went their own separate ways, but they planned to meet back up later that day. Uh, when they did see each other again, it was around 2:00 PM. Catherine said she was going to try to go to Bermondsey to see her daughter Annie and ask for money. Uh, and she told John that she would be back in Whitechapel around 4:00 PM and we can meet up then. I don't know how that went, but she certainly wasn't rolling back into Whitechapel at 4:00 PM in good condition. She was seen on something that they called Prostitutes Island.

• 4:38:45Speaker 01

  Oh man. Where a lot of, um, women would stand on to try to solicit clients, I suppose. Um, she was very drunk at this time. And according to the Hidden Lives of Jack the Ripper victims, she was, many sources say, and reports say, she was pretending to do an imitation of a fire engine? Okay. Interesting tidbit I found. Um, there was this blog, and I will link to this blog because it was really good. It was called the History Girls Blogspot. Um, it, this is at least an interesting explanation for what Catherine was actually going through when she, they said she was doing a drunken impersonation of a fire engine. This is just like a take on it. Cause I was like, what is that? Yeah. What is a drunken imitation of a fire engine even like? Do you want me to do one?

• 4:39:30Speaker 01

  Like, what would it be?

• 4:39:39Speaker 01

  But would, would it sound like that back then? Well, I don't know what a fire engine sounds like back then. That's what I mean. I don't know what fire engines sounded like back then. I don't know. So I don't know if that would be even, because that's what I thought of. Like, was she making siren noises? Yeah. I'm like, is that what they sounded like back then? I don't even know. I assume they would have some kind of, well, I don't know. Well, they would, but I just don't know if it would sound like they did now. Now, this is interesting. According to the writer of this blog, who I believe is named Lori, but I'm not positive. She posited that maybe due to her kidney issues, which would have left her short of breath. Maybe she was huffing and puffing like a steam engine. Fire trucks were run that way back then, by the way. And she either ended up going with it because she was getting a laugh from people

• 4:40:24Speaker 01

  who thought she was doing some kind of impersonation. And she actually didn't mean to be causing a scene. Or maybe she was just drunk and completely out of control and just making a lot of noise. But any, like, there is a possibility that she was sick and suffering, which makes the story a little different. Instead of just being like, what? She was doing an impersonation of a fire engine? It's like, maybe she was just like, not able to breathe. Yeah. And people took that as like, that's funny. What are you doing? And she's like, I'm being a fire engine. Like, maybe it had to do with her being sick. It could have. This just was like, it was basically like a very empathetic, possible point of view to share. And I just thought it was like a very interesting one. And it was one that was looking at her as less of just a drunk, you know, Person. Person of the night.

• 4:41:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And instead making her a human who was suffering and maybe was just going with it. Or maybe she was just fucking hilarious. Exactly. It's, it's just like, basically, I kept seeing the fire engine imitation thing. And I was like, well, I don't know what that looks like, one. And then two, I was like, I just, I think that's like a different point of view. And it's just interesting because we won't know, but it's just something to think about. Right. And it again reminds you to look at her as somebody who was suffering. So I'll link that blog because I think it's an interesting blog and I want her to get hit. Well, and it's nice that somebody took the time to like, consider a different point of view. Yeah. And she didn't say like, I know this. She was like, you just don't know. This, right. You know, we got to look at the fact that she did have this kidney disease.

• 4:41:51Speaker 01

  So she was arrested that night at 8:30 PM when a police constable named George Simmons and another one named Louis Robinson found her on the ground on Aldgate High Street. And she was out cold. Okay. They tried to pick her up and she just like slumped back over. Which also could have been hand in hand again with her illness. Yeah, she was very drunk. She was shitfaced. Yeah, I was gonna say, she was shitfaced here. This was definitely not the illness, but you know, not good. Yeah. So she was taken to Bishopsgate Police Station, very intoxicated at this time. They asked her her name and she replied, nothing. Okay. Which, okay. She was put in a cell to sober up because they would just put you in a cell to wait for a while and be like, you good? And then just let you out. Girl, they still do. It's the drunk tank.

• 4:42:35Speaker 01

  But everyone who interacted with her at the station that night said she smelled very strongly of drink and could not stand up on her own at all. So she was in a bad way that night. I love that they just say of drink. Of drink. At 12:15 AM, she woke up and they heard her singing softly to herself. Oh. In like this beautiful voice. And that's just what she would do. She would sing softly to herself. Around 12:30 AM, she said, hey, when are you gonna let me out of here? Oh, I wish they hadn't. They said, when you're able to take care of yourself, we'll let you out of here. So around 1 AM, they let her out. She told them before they left, she left, they were like, we need to know your name, address. She said her name was Mary Ann Kelly. Okay.

• 4:43:18Speaker 01

  And that she lived at Sixth Fashion Street in Spitalfields. Okay. So PC George Hutt let her leave. And when she did, she turned and said, good night, old cock. Iconic. There are reports that she was still drunk at this time, but they just figured she couldn't go anywhere at all to get more drinks. So they were like, she'll just go home. Oh, she had like, just, like, if they had just kept her a little longer. She would have been probably around. It's really sad. But this is interesting. She did say, and this is in the official reports, everywhere you read this. It's, she did say, I shall get a damned fine hiding when I get home. Hmm. And George Hutt replied, which I was like, okay, George.

• 4:44:01Speaker 01

  He wrote, and serve you right. You have no right to get drunk. Fuck off. Which that's, that wasn't even like the, but that's like, fuck you, George. But also I'm like, so was John Kelly abusing her?

• 4:44:14Speaker 01

  Maybe. Like, was that, I'm like, who are you talking about? Or was she just drunk and she was thinking she was going home to Thomas Conway? Oh, yeah. She was like, oh, like, because they did say she was very drunk when she was leaving, or they believe she was still. So maybe she was still drunk and thinking like, back to when she lived with Thomas Conway and like, oh, I'm gonna get home and he's gonna hurt me. Or was it possible that she was thinking about going back to the workhouse and like, maybe somebody there? Yeah, I don't know. Would be upset that she was like that and hurt her? Just a very strange comment, I thought, considering John Kelly, by all accounts, was not said to be an abuser. Hmm. Were there a lot of accounts, though? I guess everybody who knew him was like, I didn't know them to get into those kind of fights.

• 4:44:57Speaker 01

  And usually you didn't have a lot of privacy. If you were gonna get into an abusive fight, it was gonna be around like eight other families in a room. Yeah, because you're in a workhouse, so. So I don't know for sure. None of us do, but it's a very strange comment. I just thought it was weird. I mean, a lot of people were hitting their wives back then. They were. That's the thing. And I'm like, was this just like a normal comment to make? Probably, but like horrible. And then also, he didn't like that she drank because he didn't drink exactly. So maybe that was it. I don't know. Now, it was just interesting. So at 1:35, she was spotted by witnesses Joseph Levy and Harry, Harry Harris at the corner of Duke Street and Church Passage, which was an avenue that led into Midair Square.

• 4:45:39Speaker 01

  That's where she would later be found. She was talking to a man, according to them, very closely. She had her hand on his chest. He was said to be medium build, about five foot seven, and somewhere in the area of 30 years old. He was fair complected with a mustache. We heard this in a lot of the other ones. He was wearing a grayish jacket with a red scarf or neck handkerchief and a gray cloth hat with a peak. Hmm. Heard that before, too. This is a hat that's almost like a scally cap, like almost like a Peaky Blinder hat. But it's got like a little more height to it. Okay. Like, almost like a newsboy cap, I guess you would say, like one of those. Yeah, yeah, yep. I'm trying, like, is that what that is? Yeah, you're right.

• 4:46:21Speaker 01

  Now, Levy said that when they passed by them, Levy had said, he said to Harris, look there. I don't like going home by myself when I see those characters about. Right. Like, he was really, oh. He later said, he was like, I wasn't nervous or like, thinking they were gonna hurt me. He just figured seeing a man and a woman seemingly chatting closely in a dark alley at almost 2 AM probably meant they were not up to any, anything wholesome. Yeah. So he was like, that's all I was saying. I didn't think they were threatening in any way, either one of them. 1:45 AM, only about 10 minutes later, she was discovered ravaged and disemboweled on the street in the dark. Now, while removing her clothing, doctors found a piece of her ear when it dropped out of her, the fabric of her clothing. Just dropped on the ground. Oh, yeah.

• 4:47:06Speaker 01

  Dr. Brown performed the autopsy, but present, but present to observe the whole thing was Dr. George Williams Sakara, Dr. Phillips, and Dr. William Sanders. Now, when he began the examination, he noticed that both eyelids had been sliced open. Like vertically. The left one had a quarter inch sliced through the lower lid and the right was sliced all the way through. There was also a very deep laceration that began at the bridge of her nose and extended across her right cheek to her jaw. It had cut down to the bone in her face. Wow. The tip of her nose was sliced off and her upper lip was also cut in half down to the gum, which was sliced underneath it.

• 4:47:52Speaker 01

  Her mouth was sliced at the right side of it, up into her cheek. And both of her cheeks underneath her eyes had little triangular cuts with the, that the skin flapped over. Okay. Like very deliberate cuts, triangles, under her eyes. Hmm. Which was not seen in any other ones. No. Now, the cut to the abdomen that completely eviscerated her was jagged and described as zigzagged. But from a sketch I saw in Scotland Yard Investigates, it looks to me like more of an attempt to avoid slicing the belly button in half. And why would you not want to do that? So this is what, so here's the thing. The cut extends from the breast bone down to the groin pelvic bone.

• 4:48:37Speaker 01

  And it takes a quick detour from its straight path when it hits that navel. And I'm just speaking from my experience with eviscerating. But when we would start the eviscerations and begin with the Y-shaped incision, we would intentionally divert the cut around the belly button before bringing it back down to the pelvic area. It was just a thing we did to not split the navel in half. Okay. That's all. To me, this indicates that it could possibly be someone who has performed an autopsy before. And their muscle memory causes them to eviscerate like that because they've been doing it like that. I know this is murder and not a clinical evisceration, but if they are used to doing that, it may just be habit. Like force of habit, right?

• 4:49:21Speaker 01

  If I'm going to cut a body open, this is how I do it. Just doesn't even think about it. Whoop, takes that detour. I would never, just, I would never, my, I don't think my brain would let me, after hundreds of autopsies, cut straight down through that navel. Yeah. It would be an automatic detour around that navel. Yeah. So that was interesting to me, seeing that, because I was like, wait a second, that's how I cut. And I, that's, and that's just how I've been taught to cut. Right. And was he taught to cut like that? Yeah. I'm, possibly. As you're saying this, I'm just trying to figure out who this guy is. Yes. Now, the report even says that the cut was straight down to within a quarter of an inch from the navel and then went horizontal and around the left side of the navel before coming back around and going straight back down again,

• 4:50:06Speaker 01

  leaving that navel untouched. Yeah. I think they said, in one of the books I saw, it was like on a tongue of skin, they called it. Sure. Now, to make me even more suspicious that this was someone with at least a medical background, they had removed her left kidney cleanly.

• 4:50:23Speaker 02

  Like, that's also weird because she had kidney problems.

• 4:50:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. They had sliced through the renal capsule and removed it. The renal capsule is like this thin layer that is like encapsulating the kidney.

• 4:50:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:50:35Speaker 01

  Dr. Brown said he believed this was definitely someone with knowledge of anatomy and dissection, because they had to know where the kidney was located, first of all.

• 4:50:44Speaker 02

  Which I don't know where the fuck my kidneys even are.

• 4:50:45Speaker 01

  It's not easy to find when you open from the front.

• 4:50:48Speaker 02

  Cause their, your kidneys are closer to the back, right?

• 4:50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so they're, when you open from the front, you gotta look for them. They're not just right there for you to see. Like, they're not just like hanging above something.

• 4:50:58Speaker 02

  Are they like in the middle or are they toward your lower back?

• 4:51:00Speaker 01

  They're towards the lower.

• 4:51:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:51:02Speaker 01

  And it's, they're not easy to find. And part of her uterus was also removed again. So another uterus removed and take, the killer took these two things with him.

• 4:51:11Speaker 02

  And part of the uterus.

• 4:51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I guess he, he took most of the uterus, but it wasn't as clean as the other one was. But the kidney was clean. They had cut it at the right vessel. They had removed it in a way that wasn't just torn out of the body. She had kidney disease. Was this someone who knew who she was, knew she had a kidney disease and did that to kinda?

• 4:51:35Speaker 02

  Doctor.

• 4:51:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Also, her liver had been stabbed. Her vagina and rectum had been lacerated and stabbed. The killer had sliced the right thigh up to the labia and separated that as well to create one big flap of skin. The pancreas and spleen were also lacerated and stabbed. And like the others, she had died from the hemorrhage of the severed, severed carotid artery and everything else was done postmortem.

• 4:52:04Speaker 02

  And so, so you said the pancreas, the spleen and the liver were stabbed? Because you first said the liver, so I thought, oh, is there somebody that knows her and knows she's a heavy drinker and is angry about it?

• 4:52:16Speaker 01

  To put that out there, but the pancreas and spleen, I mean, it all works together. It's all kind of, yeah, one big happy family in there. So it's like, you're gonna, but it's just, and I don't know if those were like frenzied stabs, but yeah, no matter what, she, he took the kidney, he took the uterus, he sliced off her ear. Only part of her ear came out of her clothing.

• 4:52:37Speaker 02

  Would her kidneys have looked different because they?

• 4:52:40Speaker 01

  They would have had like a shriveled kind of appearance and pale.

• 4:52:43Speaker 02

  So again, you wonder if it's like, this guy has some kind of like anatomy knowledge, definitely has some kind of anatomy knowledge, but then also like some kind of interest too.

• 4:52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:52:54Speaker 02

  And like, he would want that kidney for some reason. Cause that's, cause I'm like, okay, so did he know that she had a kidney problem? Or when he opened her up, because he has this medical knowledge, then he realized she did and he just wanted that kidney?

• 4:53:06Speaker 01

  And it's like, where is the light coming from? How are you seeing this shit? How are you finding that fucking kidney in her body in a matter of under 15 minutes?

• 4:53:19Speaker 02

  And the only thing that you can think of is a lantern, but like, nobody saw anybody with a lantern.

• 4:53:24Speaker 01

  And is he holding a lantern in one hand while also using, or is he placing it somewhere? Like she, this is done on the ground, obviously.

• 4:53:31Speaker 02

  So is that why he, well, he does the windpipe thing to silence them, but also to like kill them quickly, maybe to put their, his lantern on them? I don't know. That's a little far fetched, but.

• 4:53:42Speaker 01

  But it's just like, what the fuck is this guy?

• 4:53:45Speaker 02

  He has to have some light. There's no way that he's doing this without light.

• 4:53:48Speaker 01

  Oh, hell no.

• 4:53:49Speaker 02

  So what, what would be a light source back then, other than a lantern?

• 4:53:52Speaker 01

  Just a lantern. Right. That's all you would have. Or like a match, which like that doesn't make, that makes even less sense.

• 4:53:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:53:58Speaker 01

  So it's like, what the fuck? Like, was he, he must've just placed it down on her or on, next to her.

• 4:54:04Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:54:04Speaker 01

  But that's not even a lot of light. Like, that's a, a lot of work to do in very dim light and very quickly.

• 4:54:11Speaker 02

  Well, and this, I was just gonna say, the speed at which he did it would make you think that he's somebody who's done this for a while.

• 4:54:16Speaker 01

  And that he, the, the thing is, it's like, he went in there with a, with a plan. He went in there looking for a kidney, it seems to me, because it's like, I don't think he's just opening up and being like, doop a doo, cause the kidney isn't gonna be the first thing that jumps out at you.

• 4:54:33Speaker 02

  Cause again, we said they're closer to your back. He's opening through the front. He's gonna have to like, sorry, but dig.

• 4:54:38Speaker 01

  Well, no, he, he is. And it's also in, or it's in a capsule of its own. It's not out there.

• 4:54:44Speaker 02

  And like sliced through.

• 4:54:45Speaker 01

  It open without, you know, and I, I just don't think he would have just randomly dug in there and somehow found the renal capsule and then decided to open it up and take a kidney?

• 4:54:58Speaker 02

  No, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

• 4:54:59Speaker 01

  You don't have a lot of time. He had to have been going in there with a plan. I'm, I'm getting the kidney out.

• 4:55:03Speaker 02

  So then we're back to, cause I had said, maybe he just saw that her kidneys were fucked up. So no, that wasn't the case.

• 4:55:08Speaker 01

  I feel like he had a plan that he was going in there for a kidney. I feel, I don't know why, but he went in there for a reason. There's, I just don't feel like the kidney would be the thing you'd rip out first. It just doesn't feel right to me.

• 4:55:21Speaker 02

  I, yeah, like I'm, I want to think that he must have known her medical history.

• 4:55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:55:27Speaker 02

  Then, like, like, how did he know that she was gonna be there when she was? You know what I mean?

• 4:55:32Speaker 01

  Well, that's the other.

• 4:55:33Speaker 02

  Was he following her?

• 4:55:34Speaker 01

  It's like.

• 4:55:35Speaker 02

  But then you would think, if he was following her that night and she did end up in jail, he probably would have given up and started walking home.

• 4:55:41Speaker 01

  Well, and then there's also the fact that there were a few witnesses who said that John Kelly told them that he heard that she was in jail, that she had been arrested that night. And he was like, oh, she'll be out by the morning. So he, word around town was that she had gotten arrested. So maybe someone waited outside that jail for.

• 4:56:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. Because I'm sorry, was this close by the jail?

• 4:56:05Speaker 01

  This was close. Yeah. So she hadn't walked like crazy far, cause I think it was only like a few minute walk.

• 4:56:12Speaker 02

  This is a fucking stump, I kid.

• 4:56:14Speaker 01

  It's, there's, I, it's a fascinating case.

• 4:56:18Speaker 02

  Because her in particular, I do feel like he knew her or knew of her medical history.

• 4:56:25Speaker 01

  But then it's also the case of like.

• 4:56:27Speaker 02

  Cause the kidney thing is just weird, dude.

• 4:56:29Speaker 01

  He also escalates each time. That's the, that's the other reason I don't believe Elizabeth Stride is part of the series. And if she was, then that was not his intention was just to do that.

• 4:56:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:56:40Speaker 01

  Because if you look at it, it goes from, you know, Polly, Polly Marion Nichols was the first one.

• 4:56:46Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 4:56:47Speaker 01

  She was ravaged for sure. But then Annie Chapman had the intestines. Then we get to Catherine Eddo's, who is ravaged. And then the last one we're gonna get to is the crescendo. So to me, it felt like it was like he was ratcheting it up a notch each time intentionally.

• 4:57:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:57:05Speaker 01

  And this was, I don't know, but it's just really wild to me. And like I said, in all of these cases, the mutilation is done postmortem. He, he kills them right away with that severed windpipe.

• 4:57:19Speaker 02

  How quickly would they die from a severed windpipe?

• 4:57:22Speaker 01

  Very quickly.

• 4:57:22Speaker 02

  Very quickly.

• 4:57:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, cause you would just not be able to breathe.

• 4:57:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:57:25Speaker 01

  So that would, and then like bleeding out, cause he would sever those carotid arteries and boom.

• 4:57:30Speaker 02

  So you bleed on very quickly, at least.

• 4:57:32Speaker 01

  At least they were not alive for any of the mutilation. But during the examination, they also found the apron that she was wearing on top of everything, that like one layer. It had been cut through with a knife and part of it was missing. Like part of, like there was a piece of fabric that wasn't there. So soon after this, Constable Alfred Long found the missing sliced apron piece on Gulston Street, which was only about a 10 minute walk from the murder scene. The piece of apron also appeared to have blood on it, but not just on it. It appeared that someone had wiped blood onto it, possibly from a bloody knife.

• 4:58:08Speaker 02

  Oh, like clean the knife with the scrap.

• 4:58:10Speaker 01

  And smeared, like taken it to use to clean the knife. Upon further inspection, this is interesting and this points back to the antisemitism kind of thing that was going on. He found writing in chalk, right next to where they found this apron, like down a passageway. And it looked like it had been just written in chalk, like very recently. And it said, and I quote, "The Jews are not the men that will be blamed for nothing."

• 4:58:37Speaker 02

  The Jews are not the men that will, will be blamed for nothing.

• 4:58:40Speaker 01

  Which to me is someone trying to make it seem like to blame it on Jewish people. Like, this is somebody who's trying to make it look like a Jewish person wrote that. Like, we're not gonna be blamed for anything. Yeah. And it's just very, what's, and why I point this out is one, to point out the antisemitism that was going on here and how they were really trying to pin this on a Jewish person. Just for being Jewish, like no other reason. And regardless of who did this or what it meant, it was evidence because it was found right next to the apron and it seemed to be very recently put there.

• 4:59:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:59:13Speaker 01

  Now, a city detective, Daniel Halsey, stayed with the writing and stated to the other officers unseen that he would remain there. And he was like, until it gets lighter outside, then we'll try to take a photograph of it. Because it's evidence. No, it rained, it rained stupidity is what it rained.

• 4:59:31Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 4:59:32Speaker 01

  Sir Charles Warren showed up a little before 5:00 AM and told them it had to be erased from the wall immediately because people would see it and it would be dangerous for people. And he was not willing to wait even less than an hour for light to come.

• 4:59:46Speaker 02

  He was like, why can't you just keep people away from the area, dude?

• 4:59:49Speaker 01

  Halsey begged him to wait until light so they could photograph it before destroying it. And he was like, I'll stay here with it. We can even cover it. Like, if you want, like just, we have to keep it here so we can get it in evidence. Like, we can't just write it down. We need photograph of it.

• 5:00:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and then like, I mean, handwriting analysis back then, like, I don't know, but at least you could like have him write something and look at it.

• 5:00:09Speaker 01

  Because as we'll see, some letters come in later.

• 5:00:12Speaker 02

  I know.

• 5:00:13Speaker 01

  And so Sir Charles Warren was like, no, they're gonna wreck this house. They're gonna riot. No, like, we're not doing it. Now, this was not a house. It was a like huge apartment building. And this was in like a stairway leading to the apartment building. They wouldn't have torn this place down.

• 5:00:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:00:27Speaker 01

  And even like in complete Jack the Ripper, the Rumbolo one, he says the same thing. He's like, that was bullshit. Like, that was a bullshit excuse for him to use. And so Halsey was like, come on, man. And then Halsey and the other officers suggested, why don't we just rub out the word Jews on here? So that it's not, you know, it's not immediately igniting anything. Like, why don't we rub that out or cover it? Everything else stays, we take a picture of that.

• 5:00:54Speaker 02

  Please, dude.

• 5:00:55Speaker 01

  And he said, absolutely not. And in fact, according to the acting commissioner of the city police, Major Smith, he said that Sir Charles Warren erased the entire piece of writing himself before they were able to get any picture of it. Don't know what that was about. Do you only learn about him in criminal justice school because of this case or other cases as well? There's so many other cases, like you learn about like Bloody Sunday and you learn about like, he was head of the, you know, the Metropolitan Police Force. He kind of turned it very militarized, which was like a whole thing. So he was like, not the best. So it's like, eek. But by this time, acting head of the CID, Robert Anderson, our little Switzerland buddy who's on holiday. Does he come back? He does. Okay.

• 5:01:38Speaker 01

  He was forced to return back to London from Paris, where he had traveled to be closer during his doctor mandated holiday. And he literally landed in Paris the night of the double event. Oh, shit. So they were like, you need to come home. And he was like, oh, fuck. So the Home Secretary told him, I hold you solely responsible for solving these murders. That's a lot. And he was like, hey, I just got back from my mental health break. Hey, guys. He said, and I quote, "I hold myself responsible to take all legitimate means to find him." So he was like, I will do my best, but I will do my best. And in response to this, because now he's feeling a lot of pressure and he's feeling a lot of like, oh shit.

• 5:02:21Speaker 01

  Anderson suggested that any sex worker found outside after midnight should be arrested, or they should be told that they will not be protected by police if they remain outside. Okay. Which I was like, uh, no. Luckily, everyone was like, dude. Yeah. Chill. I said, just to be clear, I was like, okay. Okay. I wasn't like, okay. Yeah, great. Good idea. No, everybody was like, I think you need to go back on vacation, like calm down. You're like, why are, why are we punishing the sex workers for getting murdered? For getting murdered. Like, are you joking right now? For just to eat and get a roof over their head. Maybe we could create some jobs for them. But that didn't happen. They were like, no, let's not do that. No, never. Um, so this is what brings us to, and this is where we'll end up kind of ending it on this episode. I don't think it's long enough.

• 5:03:06Speaker 01

  I know. I think you should just keep going. The letters. Oh, I'm going to briefly touch upon them in this part and then we will. Talk about them more in the next one. For some reason, ever, ever since I've known about Jack the Ripper, which obviously you like introduced me to this case, I have always found the letters to be one of the most fascinating parts of this case. They're fascinating. I mean, like From Hell, that's come on. Like, okay, Axeman. Yeah, exactly. You tried. Now, even back in the 1800s, people were writing hoax letters and being dicks in the middle of a murder investigation. It was, we are, people are always gonna people, unfortunately. Trolls are always gonna troll. The trolls of back then. But there are some letters, very few, that seemed like they have, they could be real.

• 5:03:51Speaker 01

  So one that I think might be the real deal is the Dear Boss letter. Yes. Now, this was sent right before the double event, right before it was sent. And it was postmarked before it. It was sent to the Central News Agency in London on September 28th, 1888. So this was two days before, or one day, excuse me. One day before. One day, two day. One day before. This is like drunk history. It was dated on the letter, September 25th, like he had written it on September 25th. And the details make me think it could be real. It was given to police by a reporter, Thomas John Bulling. So this is what it says.

• 5:04:32Speaker 01

  Dear boss, I keep on hearing the police have caught me, but they won't fix me just yet. I just, I have laughed when they look so clever and talk about being on the right track. That joke about leather apron gave me real fits. I'm down on whores and I shan't quit ripping them till I do get buckled. Grand work the last job was, I gave the lady no time to squeal. How can they catch me now? I love my work and want to start again. You will soon hear of me with the funny little games. I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with, but it went thick like glue and I can't use it. Red ink is fit enough, I hope. Ha, ha. The next job I, and then this is where like, I was like, whoa.

• 5:05:13Speaker 01

  The next job I do, I shall clip the lady's ears off and send them to police officers just for jolly, wouldn't you? Keep this letter till I do a bit more work, then give it out straight. My knife is nice and sharp. I want to get to work right away if I get a chance. Good luck, yours truly, Jack the Ripper. Don't mind me giving the trade name. Wasn't good enough to post this before I got all the red ink off my hands. Curse it. No luck yet. They say I am a doctor now. Ha, ha. Hmm. He said, I shall clip the lady's ears off. And he clipped a lady's ear off. He didn't, he didn't send them, but I don't know if it's because he, maybe he couldn't find them. They were stuck in, and here's another thing, they were stuck in her clothing.

• 5:05:56Speaker 01

  They didn't find them until they, it fell out of her clothes. Maybe he was searching for them and couldn't find them. And had to get out of there. Heard people and had to get out of there before he could grab it. But it's weird to me that he cut her ear off. Yeah. And this was written before that happened. I think this, this one is definitely real. Very weird. And this letter was posted in the media because the police were desperate at the time. I think it would have been a lot better to hold this one close to the chest and see if another communication came in without the press involved, but hey, I'm not part of the Metropolitan Police Force in 1888. Proudly spoken. Sir, you know, Sir Charles Warren was, he thought that this should be put in the press. I just don't agree.

• 5:06:37Speaker 01

  Now, another communication was sent posted October 1st, 1888. So it was meant to seem like it was written right after the double event, like literally within 12 hours. It was a postcard that looked like the original letter, but had what appeared to be blood smeared all over it. This one said, I was not coddling, dear boss, when I gave you the tip. You'll hear about saucy Jack's work tomorrow. Double event this time. Number one squealed a bit, couldn't finish straight off. Had not time to get ears for police. Thanks for keeping last letter back till I got to work again. Jack the Ripper. What do you think about this one? That one?

• 5:07:16Speaker 01

  If it is truly sent the day after the event, then I don't really know because it was posted in the, in the media, what this, like some of the details. Right. So they could have, I think this one's like, eh, saucy Jack, I don't know about that one. Dear boss. He's like a silly guy when it comes, when it comes to his writing, I mean. Yeah, he's saucy, but like, I don't know if he would refer to himself as saucy Jack. He's not well, bitch. That one I don't feel interesting, but I don't feel completely attached to it. And it's a, it's the kind of thing where it's like, I don't know, because the event, it was already. It was already there. So it's hard to say. It's really hard to say that one. I could see it being him and I could also see why it wouldn't be him. Exactly.

• 5:08:00Speaker 01

  That one, I feel like I'm like very in the middle. I'm on the fence with that one. The Dear Boss one, I feel pretty, it's pretty compelling. The Dear Boss one, I have always been like, nah, Jack. I'm like, I'm a Dear Boss truther, I think. Like, I feel pretty, I feel pretty right on that one. Boss truther. And the letter that still captivates those who read this case is definitely the From Hell letter. Yep. It was a letter not received by the Central News Agency. Instead, this one was sent to the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, George Lusk. The letter was sent from hell and it contained part of a kidney. I think that one was real. That one I'm going to go with was real and we are going to talk about it in part three. Part four.

• 5:08:44Speaker 01

  Oh, part four, part 65, whichever one we are on. We hope you keep listening. Yeah, we're going to cover it on the next one. And, and I think we'll be done after the next part. I'm pretty sure. I am not so sure. Get me out of Whitechapel. Get me out here.

• 5:09:09Speaker 01

  We are close to wrapping up our Jack the Ripper series. But no cigar. But not today. There's going to be one final episode after this where we are only going to discuss theories and suspects. It just needs its own episode. There's so many. I, I would like to hear from people to see like what their theories are and what their favorite suspect is, because I want to be able, I want to touch upon like most of them and at least be able to expel some and like, be like, meh, maybe this one makes sense, you know? I'm excited to be like, meh. Meh, because I think that one's going to be like a little more like loosey goosey of an episode, because we can just kind of like debate about what we think happened. I'm going to shoot the shit. We'll just shoot the shit about Jack the Ripper.

• 5:09:52Speaker 01

  But for this episode, episode four, we're getting into the murder of Mary Jane Kelly, which was the final of the canonical five victims. Uh, it is arguably the worst one. It's real bad. Uh, that's really all the warning I can give you is like, wow. This is horrible. If you're, if you've made it this far, I think you can handle it, but like, it's going to be real bad. I don't, if you haven't Googled the photo and you have like a weak stomach, I don't recommend doing that.

• 5:10:25Speaker 01

  Most of you have probably seen the photo because I feel like it's one of those true crime photos that we've all seen, unfortunately. It's a very, very graphic photo. From what I read in a few sources back then, and I remember hearing this, that they used to think taking photos of murder victims, their retinas, like shortly after death, that it would, the image of the, of what they saw last would be in their retina. Okay. That was a thing that they believed and they believed that like a certain type of photography could do it. Interesting. Yeah. And what's interesting, yeah, right? Wouldn't that be just like, wow. Take a pic. Just a silver platter to the police. Just there you go.

• 5:11:04Speaker 01

  But in this one, what's weird, and we'll obviously talk about it in great detail, is only her eyes were left untouched. And I don't know if that was, I saw a couple of sources point that out and say, do you think this was Jack the Ripper? Being like, give it a shot, guys. Like, you know what I mean? Like just leaving those totally untouched and being like, take a look at those retinas, see if you can catch me. Yeah. I wonder if it was. Somebody that did not believe that himself and was like, here you go, morons. That's the thing. I feel like it must have been. And then I had another, because people were getting into some of these books and like getting excited to dive into the case. So I wanted to give more recommendations. I'm going to be adding books into the recommendation list.

• 5:11:45Speaker 01

  And also you should go listen to, if you want, like even more deep dive into this. Get like different perspectives, get some more historical basis for everything and some real look into like the police and everything. Cause I touch upon it, but I'm not going like hard into the police. Go listen to Unobscured, season three. It's Aaron Mankey's podcast and they covered Jack the Ripper for that entire season. It's phenomenal. I mean, it's, Aaron Mankey does amazing podcasts. That's just the way it is. Aaron Mankey, friend of the pod. Friend of the pod. But I just wanted to tell you guys to go listen to it because it's really good. He also did, the season one was on the Salem Witch Trials and that was a great one too. Just go listen to everything that Aaron Mankey does.

• 5:12:29Speaker 01

  Just go listen to Aaron Mankey. Yay. But honestly, it's just, it's a really good, like after you're done with this, if you are still like just itching to be in Whitechapel for longer. Which would be interesting of you. Go over there. But what I'm gonna do after this is I'm going to watch Peaky Blinders. So I'm not going to leave Whitechapel either. Well, I'm going to leave Whitechapel for Birmingham, but that's just me. There you go. You know, here we are. So. Do you know where I was last night? Where were you? West Egg. West Egg. You were watching The Great Gatsby. I was. Look at you. It was so good. Such a good movie. I cried. I had a good cry. Good book, good movie, good tattoo, you know? Good, good, good on ya. Good all around. Good green light. Yeah, good green light. There you go.

• 5:13:13Speaker 01

  So let's get into part four. It's funny because throughout this research, my opinions are shifting as I research. I went in here thinking one thing and started at one thing and then it slowly evolved into something else, which is kind of fun. That is cool. And when it comes to the letters, my opinions have shifted even from the last episode. Oh shit, really? So there's that. So we're going to get into this. So first, when we last talked, we mentioned the letters. We mentioned the Dear Boss letter. We mentioned the postcard that came after that. This is where he named himself Jack the Ripper. This is where he said, don't mind me giving the trade name. It was a very like goofy letter.

• 5:13:54Speaker 01

  It, it always bothered me how goofy it was, but like, but I was like, well, you know, he's a dick, so I suppose that makes sense. And he's like trying to be theatrical. Yeah. And then we said that there was also the very infamous From Hell letter. And this letter was not received by the central news agency like the other ones, which we'll get into how weird that is too. This was sent to the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, George Lusk. And this one contained part of a kidney. Which we thought was weird. Do you still feel that way? Still feel like that's weird. Okay, cool. So that, let me get into, because you're probably like the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. Like, what is that? Right? You're probably like, what the fuck is that? You're absolutely.

• 5:14:38Speaker 01

  I feel like I have a feeling, but for those who don't, let's go. So this is, so George Lusk was the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee. And what it was, it was also called the Mile End Vigilance Committee. And it was formed earlier in the month, September 10th, 1888. It was put together by 16 men from local businesses. George Lusk was a builder, like a local builder. They were all like butchers, you know? Butchers. Bookers, makers, candlestick makers. They were everything. He was a builder. He was the head of the whole thing. It was put together because they just didn't think the Metropolitan Police Force could handle this shit. Sounds like they were on to something. Yeah. And they just didn't believe they were going to be protected. They didn't think it was really going well in there. They weren't.

• 5:15:23Speaker 01

  They weren't. So they got together and decided they were going to take matters into their own hands on a local level. They were going to protect their community. They were going to investigate things. Sounds great on like a surface level. You're like, good for you. But then when you think about it, you're like, oh, that never works out, I feel. I was gonna say, how'd that go? How'd that go? Well, and we all know how that flowed. There were also a ton of these vigilance committees. It wasn't just this one. This is the one, you know, that is well known mainly because of the area it was in and because of the head of this one got a fucking kidney sent to him. I think that's really what put it on the map. That'll do it. But these vigilance committees would patrol the streets. They would step into crimes if needed.

• 5:16:05Speaker 01

  They would kind of just offer kind of like a deterrence to people because they were like big guy, big builder men and butchers and all that. So they're just like, I'll fuck you up. I'm carrying a giant knife, like for my job. And I'm covered in blood. So what's up? And I'm literally always covered in blood. So what are you going to do about it? Right? So it kind of worked out a little bit. But the Star newspaper basically did a call to action to tell locals to rise up. Like the newspapers were like, hey, the police suck. You guys should probably do something. The newspapers were like, let's go, girls. Let's go, girls. So the Star on Saturday, September 8th, 1888, this was right before the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee was put together.

• 5:16:47Speaker 01

  They said in the Star, now there is only one thing to be done at this moment. And we can talk of larger reforms when we do away with the centralized, non-efficient military system, which Sir Charles Warren has brought to perfection. The people of the East End must become their own police. They must form themselves at once vigilance committees. There should be a central committee which should map out the neighborhoods into districts and appoint the smaller committees. These again should at once devote themselves to volunteer patrol work at night as well as general detective service. Which I'm like, don't make them be detectives. Yeah. The unfortunates, who are the objects of the man, of this man monster's malignity, should be shadowed by one or two of the amateur patrols. They should be cautioned to walk in couples.

• 5:17:31Speaker 01

  Whistles and a signaling system should be provided and means of summoning a rescue force should be at hand. We are not sure that every London district that should not make some effort of the kind, for the murderer may choose a fresh quarter now that Whitechapel is being made too hot to hold him. I love that. Too hot to hold Jack. We do not think that the police will put any obstacle in the way of this volunteer assistance. Hilarious. They will probably be only too glad to have their efforts supplemented by the spontaneous action of the inhabitants. Yeah, definitely. Not so much. But in any case, London must rouse itself. No woman is safe while this ghoul is abroad. Up citizens then and do your own police work. I love it.

• 5:18:14Speaker 01

  Something that you probably wouldn't read in the newspaper today. Probably not. Well, maybe now, but, but I was gonna say, maybe, actually. Times have changed. But you know what? I, I do love that, I love the idea of like Whitechapel changing its like, welcome to Whitechapel sign to say like, Whitechapel, too hot to hold Jack. Like that feels like it's like. Saucy. You can hold that. Yeah. As a really good, like, that's your town slogan, too hot to hold Jack. Yeah, I kind of like it. Who wrote that? Like, who are you? Somebody wrote that. These, I will say, these journalists, man, back then, they were something. They were something. They were just so like, I don't even, I don't even know the word to describe them, but they were just so sparkly.

• 5:18:58Speaker 01

  They were sparkly. They were very flowery with their prose. They were very opportunistic at times. We'll get into that. I was gonna say, does that lead you into your next thought? Well, it got so bad that people in Whitechapel started calling for the resignation of Home Secretary Henry Matthews, who like runs the whole force and, and/or Sir Charles Warren. They were like, we want one of you to resign. I get.

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• 5:22:02Speaker 01

  So of course, Home Secretary Matthews was quoted as saying, quote, "The failure of the police so far to detect the perpetrator of the Whitechapel murders is not due to any defect in the organization of the existing system of police, but to the extraordinary cunning and secrecy that characterizes those atrocious crimes." So he's like, "It's not our fault, fuckers. It's that this guy is too fucking smart." And it's like, you, that's what you want to go with?

• 5:22:29Speaker 02

  And also like, that's gonna settle the public?

• 5:22:31Speaker 01

  That's the thing. It's like you, first of all, that's really where you want to take this? Like, that's okay. That we're not, it's not that we're dumb. He's just much smarter. Like, that's the line you guys want to put on your log line here?

• 5:22:44Speaker 02

  That makes me feel happy and safe.

• 5:22:45Speaker 01

  And it's like, you think that the, exactly. Everyone in Whitechapel is gonna be like, "Oh, good. We were worried. We were worried it was just that you were dumb." But the fact is, he's just supernatural and like way smarter than everybody.

• 5:22:57Speaker 02

  Alright, okay, we're fine then.

• 5:22:59Speaker 01

  Don't even worry about it.

• 5:23:00Speaker 02

  Just stop looking.

• 5:23:01Speaker 01

  Don't worry about it.

• 5:23:03Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 5:23:04Speaker 01

  He's just, he's gonna keep killing. It's fine.

• 5:23:05Speaker 02

  He's too smart.

• 5:23:06Speaker 01

  Oy vey. So, October 16th, 1888, George Lusk receives a wild package in the mail. He got a square cardboard box that was about three inches in like diameter. And when he opened this peculiar package, he found a letter. It was postmarked "From Hell," and half of a human fucking kidney was inside.

• 5:23:27Speaker 02

  Oh, a half?

• 5:23:29Speaker 01

  Only part of it.

• 5:23:30Speaker 02

  Oh, I know, I knew part. I didn't know it was as much as a half, though.

• 5:23:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, half of a human kidney.

• 5:23:34Speaker 02

  I thought he sent maybe like a little tidbit of the kidney.

• 5:23:36Speaker 01

  Oh, no, he gave a pretty good chunk of it.

• 5:23:38Speaker 02

  Oh, can you imagine?

• 5:23:40Speaker 01

  No. No, the organ was preserved in alcohol. I believe it was like wine, and was very real. And it was very human. Because Dr. Thomas Openshaw, who was the pathological curator of the London Hospital Museum, examined the kidney and said it was indeed a human kidney, and you can tell. And it was the right kidney. Now, if you remember, Catherine Eddo's lost her right kidney.

• 5:24:07Speaker 02

  I do remember. I do recall.

• 5:24:09Speaker 01

  Now, if you Google this whole thing, you will get a whole hell of a lot of sources saying that Dr. Openshaw also stated it was from a 45-year-old woman with Bright's Disease and that the kidney was Ginny, meaning from somebody who drank heavily. And it had been removed within the previous three weeks, which fits exactly in the timeframe of Catherine Eddo's murder and the kidney removal. Which like, wow, that's so neat and tidy, isn't it?

• 5:24:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:24:35Speaker 01

  That it's like, he could just tell every single little piece of information that fits Catherine Eddo's?

• 5:24:38Speaker 02

  It's almost too neat and tidy.

• 5:24:40Speaker 01

  Almost too, but a lot of sources claim that Dr. Openshaw was like, "No, I didn't say any of that."

• 5:24:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:24:46Speaker 01

  And he said, "I said..."

• 5:24:47Speaker 02

  That's a kidney.

• 5:24:48Speaker 01

  "And I will be quoted as saying, 'That is a human kidney. I can confirm that,' and that it was taken from the, was it the right, right side of the body? Hopefully, I'm on the right side. Whatever side Catherine Eddo's was taken from, it was taken from the same side." So he's like, "I can confirm that."

• 5:25:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:25:05Speaker 01

  But he was like, "Other than that, I don't really know." He did say that when compared to Catherine Eddo's remaining kidney, it was similar.

• 5:25:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:25:15Speaker 01

  In the way that it appeared, which would, to me, would mean it was like a little pale, like miscolored, a little shriveled, a little funky looking. So...

• 5:25:24Speaker 02

  Because that's the thing. It's not like she just has any regular old kidneys.

• 5:25:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:25:27Speaker 02

  To compare these is a pretty big deal.

• 5:25:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. Saying that there's some kind of like, um,

• 5:25:32Speaker 02

  Similarity.

• 5:25:33Speaker 01

  Correlation between the two looking just physically is something.

• 5:25:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:25:37Speaker 01

  That's something to hold on to. Now, I've also seen some sources say that they're like, "Well, that, he definitely didn't say it was a Ginny kidney because kidneys aren't affected by alcohol." I saw like a lot of sources say that.

• 5:25:46Speaker 02

  Of course they are. Your pee goes through there.

• 5:25:48Speaker 01

  And I was like, "What now?" Kidneys can get real fucked from alcohol. Heavy, long-term alcohol abuse will start to cause your kidneys to become super overworked because your liver is being abused. And chronic kidney disease can be a result.

• 5:26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:26:02Speaker 01

  So a Ginny kidney is a thing, I suppose. I, it would look shriveled and miscolored. A healthy kidney looks nice and smooth and just somehow like, right.

• 5:26:11Speaker 02

  It's also like alcohol can do a lot to like all the organs in your body.

• 5:26:15Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. It's like, uh, it's, it's like a ripple effect. You drop a pebble in a pond, it ripples out to everything. That's what it does in your body. Everything's connected. So, the thing that is really interesting is that it's reported that the half of the kidney that was in the box sent to Lusk had a small portion of the renal artery still attached to it. Catherine Eddo's is, and they said that it was about an inch. Catherine Eddo's kidney was removed from her, from, I believe it was the left side. So I think I got it wrong when I said right. I apologize.

• 5:26:45Speaker 02

  Well, fuck you.

• 5:26:46Speaker 01

  And there was a long portion of the renal artery still attached to her body. So she had about two inches of the renal artery still attached without the kidney. This kidney came with about one inch, which would line up with that two inches to kind of form the right size of that renal artery.

• 5:27:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:27:06Speaker 01

  So that is pretty interesting.

• 5:27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and like, where does some random Joe just get a fucking kidney?

• 5:27:12Speaker 01

  Thank you. And that's, so this would match, and I don't think people, if this was a hoax, that's a very big detail to, like a small detail to put into this hoax that I don't think somebody would think of.

• 5:27:22Speaker 02

  No.

• 5:27:23Speaker 01

  Now, a man named Dr. Henry Sutton was the kidney disease god, apparently, and the London Hospital pathologist back in the day. And I found him actually cited in a medical paper, paper called "The Entomology of Nephritis: A Historical Appraisal of Its Origin." And it was from 2020, actually, which is really interesting. Uh, he was brought, he was brought this kidney by Major Smith from the police force. And after examining it, he said he would stake his reputation on the fact that this human kidney was placed into the wine preserve it was sent in, within hours of being removed from the body.

• 5:27:56Speaker 02

  Damn.

• 5:27:57Speaker 01

  This would mean, because what they were saying was everybody's like, "Well, who the fuck would have a human kidney? Medical students."

• 5:28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:28:04Speaker 01

  Cadaver kidneys. You could take out a cadaver kidney and send it to someone and nobody would give a shit. Especially back then, who the fuck's gonna catch you?

• 5:28:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:28:11Speaker 01

  They can't, they can't catch Jack the Ripper. They're not gonna catch you.

• 5:28:13Speaker 02

  The recipient might give a shit.

• 5:28:15Speaker 01

  I mean, they would definitely give a shit, that's for sure. Touche. But, so, but this took that away, that possibility away, because he's saying it was placed in that preserve within hours of being removed. Well, back then, bodies in the morgue were not taken into coroner's inquests and dissected for one or two days after the death occurred. It wasn't a rapid autopsy situation like can happen now. So there's no way that a frozen or a, like, a cadaver that had been sitting, I shouldn't even say frozen, for like one or two days, they took the kidney out, were like, "This is, this'll be funny."

• 5:28:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:28:49Speaker 01

  It just doesn't line up. That was a much fresher kidney.

• 5:28:52Speaker 02

  No, I, I fully believe that that was her kidney.

• 5:28:55Speaker 01

  Now, what the letter said was this. It said, "From Hell. Mr. Lusk, I send you half the kidney I took from one woman and preserved it for, for you to the," and then it says like "tother." It's a very hard to read kind of thing. It's like, but I think what they meant was, "The other piece I fried and ate. It was very nice. I may send you the bloody knife that took it out if you only wait a while longer. Signed, Catch Me When You Can, Mr. Lusk." There was no Jack the Ripper. There was no saucy Jack here. There was no Jack at all. So does that then lead you to believe that the Dear Boss letter is the fake?

• 5:29:35Speaker 01

  Thank you. He had not signed this at all. He didn't sign it with any moniker. He didn't come up with some silly ass name for himself. He didn't BTK it. Could it be because he was not really psyched about that moniker being put on him already? Like, he was like, um, like, no, Didn't like it. That wasn't me and I didn't do that and I'm not gonna fall into that. So October 29th, another letter was sent to Dr. Openshaw, the one who was given this kidney and said, this is a human kidney. Yes. It was sent to him. And this one said, Old Boss, which goes right back. Old Boss, you was right. It was the left kidney. I was going to operate again, close to your hospital, just as I was going to

• 5:30:16Speaker 01

  draw my knife along, along of her blooming throat. Them cusses of coppers spoilt the game. But I guess it will be on the job soon and I will send you another bit of innards. Jack the Ripper. Oh, have you seen the devil with his microscope and scalpel, looking at a kidney with a slide cocked up? Hmm. So here's, I'm gonna, here I go. Are you ready? Cause I did this to John last night and he was like, save me. He told me that this morning. He was like, please save it for the podcast. I don't know what to say. He literally said that. Literally said that. Here is my opinion now. All the letters besides the From Hell letter are bullshit. I think they were all three written by newspaper people to sell newspapers. And here is why. Okay.

• 5:30:57Speaker 01

  Number one, the Jack the Ripper moniker, made up, made up in the Dear Boss letter, used in the Old Boss letter and the Saucy Jack postcard, and then abandoned in the Mr. Lusk letter. The use of game and job interchangeably in all three of those letters, but not in the Mr. Lusk letter. In all three, he refers to what he's doing, doing is both his job and a little game. He refers to it as a game, saying coppers spoilt the game. And then immediately in the same letter, says it will be, he will be on the job. In the Dear Boss letter, he calls it his grand work. And then he says, these murders are his funny little games.

• 5:31:37Speaker 01

  In the postcard, he's saying Saucy Jack's work, which is conflicting tones and ideas, like Saucy Jack, my work, like very, it doesn't make sense. This is just my opinion, having spent some time in this world through research and reading a lot of different things about it. But I think the real Ripper thinks of this, or thought of this, as one thing. And I don't think he thought of it as a game. I don't think, and I don't think he's confused or conflicted about how he sees it. I don't think that he was not sure whether this was his work or his game. He had one opinion and I don't think he took this as a game. No. It just doesn't, it doesn't ring true to me. And I don't think that he would also,

• 5:32:19Speaker 01

  I don't even think he would see it as a job. I think he sees it as a mission or a message or a punishment. There's something, some end game he has here. This is not like, oh, this is just my, my job to do this. No, I don't think that. And I, like I said, it's not funny to him. It's not a game to him. I really don't see that. But the Lusk letters refer to it as neither. Right. It is not his work. It is not his game. He just talks about the woman. This is what I did. Right. And I think that's more the, what I see in these crime scenes, that makes sense to me. That's somebody that's like, fuck you guys. This isn't a game. This isn't my job. I have a message to send or I have a punishment to dole out.

• 5:32:59Speaker 01

  And the From Hell letter, while it is theatrical, it is not nearly as theatrical as the other two letters. Like, the tone is entirely different. Well, actually, I would beg to differ. The tones are all very jovial and over the top. All three of those. And they all have similar misspellings. They all have similar like ha ha's in them and Saucy Jack and they, they're all signed Jack the Ripper. They all, to me, seem like they were written from the same perspective. No, no, no. I'm, I'm, maybe I referenced the wrong one. I'm saying the one that came with the kidney is less jovial. That's the friend from hell. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying they all three? All three. So there's four letters. Four letters. Got it.

• 5:33:40Speaker 01

  There's the Dear Boss letter. There's the postcard. Both came to the central news agency. And then there's another one that came after the From Hell letter to Dr. Openshaw. Yep. All three of those are jovial as fuck. They're jokey. They're ridiculous. They all reference Jack. Right. The From Hell letter has not one hint of joke to it. That's what I was saying. Yeah. That's the From Hell letter. Yep. So, and also, so that's, so there's the job in the, in the game thing that is ringing true in all three of those other ones, but nowhere in the From Hell one. Then where it was sent. So the Dear Boss letter and the postcard was sent to, though, so it was sent to the Central News Agency.

• 5:34:26Speaker 01

  The From Hell letter was sent to the head of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee, which had formed again because of distrust of police and their ability to keep Whitechapel safe from this monster. Doesn't it make sense that he would seek out this guy to send it to, rather than a newspaper man, a doctor or a cop? It would make more sense to send it to this guy, because this guy's the one that's like, out there in the, in the trenches here, pretending to be like the head of the detective force at this point. Yeah. So I would think this would be like, hey, like civilian pretending to be a cop. Here you go. Right. Like you think you can handle this? Exactly. And number four, the coagulated blood in the ginger bottle from the Dear Boss letter.

• 5:35:10Speaker 01

  So I will go back to the Dear Boss letter to give you this, just so, cause I'm sure I, I wouldn't remember either. In the Dear Boss letter, he says, once he talks about his funny little games, he says, I saved some of the proper red stuff in a ginger beer bottle over the last job to write with, but it went thick like glue and I can't use it. Red ink is fit enough, I hope. Ha ha. So what he's talking about there, obviously, is coagulated blood in a ginger beer bottle. Yep. And what he is saying is that he's kept that from the last job he did, like a while ago. And that, oh no, I can't write with it now, because it went coagulated like jelly. This is a medically minded person. It's very clear. Yes.

• 5:35:51Speaker 01

  The real killer would not be shocked that blood collected in a ginger bottle would coagulate in the bottle by the time they sat down to write that stupid letter. It would be jelly in minutes and the real killer would have known that, I think. I don't think he would have been like, oh, so weird. His fake surprise and the switch to red ink to like mimic blood is so over the top and stupid. And honestly, it's something that a reporter would do to be like, does anyone have a red fucking ink that I can write this with to make it look like blood? Yeah, I could see that. Like, it makes sense. Well, and the biggest thing is like, exactly what you said. He would know that blood coagulates. Of course. He wouldn't be like, so weird. It went thick like glue. Yeah. You would know that. So then number five, the tone.

• 5:36:33Speaker 01

  Like we were talking about, all three of the others are jovial, silly, over the top. They are too much. The From Hell letter is dark, ominous, and to the fucking point. Exactly. It also contained actual physical evidence. I think he sent that to scare and terrify. I think he liked the fear he was spreading and it wasn't meant to be a funny thing. He wasn't sitting here going, hardy har har, saucy Jack. Like, that's not what he was doing. Right. He was like, I wanna fuck everyone's world up. I'm gonna scare the shit out of everyone. And here's a fucking kidney. Yeah. The other ones are like, so silly, aren't I? It's like, that just doesn't make any sense. And even the letter itself is blank and dead sounding.

• 5:37:18Speaker 01

  Even just what he wrote is dead. It's dead words. He just tells him what's in the package. Here's half a kidney. He says he may send the weapon he used to remove it. He's like, maybe. He does a little taunt, a little hint of a taunt at the end. Makes sense, because like, why send the letter but to taunt? But it's more of a, you can't stop me. Right. And less of a, this is fun, hardy har. Right. Kind of vibe. It's literally at the end, like, you won't stop me. That's it. Yeah. And that is why that just rings true to me. The From Hell one is real to me. The other ones. Not so much. It's atrocious and real, I think. I buy what you're saying.

• 5:37:57Speaker 01

  It just makes sense. When you really look at them, and I will try to like post some of the pictures of them for this episode. But when you even just looking at them and reading through them, you will see a marked tone difference between those three and that one. Yeah. It's completely different. And the other three just makes sense that they would be written by someone who thinks that they're doing a serial killer impression, I suppose. And it's like, no, that's like a caricature of what this is. I agree. So, yeah. So that's just how I feel about that. And also, Robert Anderson, our jet setter, off in Switzerland and then Paris and then home. He wrote memoirs later that were called The Lighter Side of My Official Life.

• 5:38:42Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. He needed a lighter side of his official life, poor thing. And in it, he wrote, quote, "So I will only add here that the Jack the Ripper letter, which is preserved in the Police Museum at New Scotland Yard", and that is like the Dear Boss letter, "is the creation of an enterprising journalist." Wow. His successor had the same thought. Sir Melville McNaughton took over as head of the CID in 1903, and he said, "It was definitely a journalist." He said, quote, "In this ghastly production, I have always thought I could discern the stained forefinger of a journalist." Indeed, a year later, I had shrewd suspicions as to the actual author. But whoever did pen the gruesome stuff, it is certain to my mind that it was not the mad miscreant who had committed the murders."

• 5:39:27Speaker 01

  And they're, they're not talking about the From Hell letter. Now, the Dear Boss letter feels real on first glance because like I said it last time, I was like, you know what? This one feels real to me. Yeah. Because of the ear thing. And it's because he says, I'm going to clip the next one's ear off. And he did. Yeah. Now, it was turned into police on September 29th, which was hours before the double event and the murder of Catherine Eddos, who had her ear clipped off. But the central news agency claimed they received the letter on September 27th and waited until the day of the murders to turn it into police. Which is weird. Is something amiss here with dates? Possibly? And another thing, George Sims, who was a journalist at the time and who wrote a

• 5:40:11Speaker 01

  weekly Sunday column, he was like heavily into this investigation and he was very suspicious of all these letters. He brought up the notion that the Dear Boss letter and postcard were sent to a news agency and not to a specific newspaper or to the cops. A news agency, because the central news agency, what it did was it sold, it sold. It sold to papers. It sold papers. It sold papers or stories, excuse me. It sold stories to other papers and news outlets. They were not, they were not a paper themselves. They sold the stories out. Which makes even more sense because then they're going to make more money. It is a hub that can spread the story or news items to various sources.

• 5:40:55Speaker 01

  Wouldn't someone just send this letter directly to the papers or better yet, the actual investigators? Right. Why would they choose a news agency? So George Sim actually wrote, quote, "The fact that the self-postcard-proclaimed assassin sent this imitation blood-smeared communication to the central news people opens up a wide field for theory. How many among you, my dear readers, would have hit upon the idea of the central news as a receptacle for your confidence? You might have sent your joke to The Telegraph, The Times, any morning or evening paper, but I will lay long odds that it would never have occurred to communicate with a press agency. Curious, is it not that this maniac takes his communication to an agency which serves

• 5:41:39Speaker 01

  the entire press? It is an idea which might occur to a press man perhaps, and even then, it would probably only occur to someone connected with the editorial department of a newspaper, someone who knew what the central news was and the place it filled in the business of news supply. This proceeding on Jack's part betrays an inner knowledge of the newspaper worlds, which is certainly surprising. Everything therefore points to the fact that the jokist is professionally connected with the press. And if he is telling the truth and not fooling us, then we are brought face to face with the fact that the Whitechapel murders have been committed by a practical journalist, perhaps a real live editor, which is absurd. And at that, I think I will leave it."

• 5:42:23Speaker 01

  He's like, and drop the mic. So he's basically like, especially at that time, no one knew what the central news was. I was going to ask that. People wouldn't know that. No layman is going to know that that's what that does unless you're in the press business. And then you know that it can get out to everybody. Now, the postcard was talking like it was sent before the double event, like it was saying like, or yeah, I was saying that it was sent like right before the double event, but it was actually postmarked 24 hours after. So it seems like whoever tried it, they tried to make that look like it was sent before, but it was actually not. It didn't work out for them. Those dates and it didn't work. So then in 1993, a letter was discovered by a man named Stuart Evans.

• 5:43:06Speaker 01

  This letter is called the Little Child Letter because it was written by Chief Inspector John George Littlechild, who was the head of the secret department of Scotland Yard. And it was written to George R. Sims, who was an author and journalist himself. In this letter, he says that he is sure Tom Bulling, who was the one who received the original Dear Boss letter at the central news, he was the creator of the original letters. Bulling was the man that received it, but then passed it along to police. So he says in that Little Child Letter, the investigator says he's absolutely sure that Tom Bulling did it. Okay. So, I mean, that could be him just being like, I know it, but it's still interesting. Yeah.

• 5:43:48Speaker 01

  Now, by this point, the murders had followed some kind of time pattern, which people just realized at this point. The first one was August 31st. The next one was September 8th. The next one was September 30th. The next one would have been August or October 8th. If it was going like 8:30, 8:30. Right. So October 8th comes around. Everybody's waiting. Nothing. October 30th comes around, nothing. So they're like, did they stop? And a month, so a whole month went by, nothing related to the Ripper. Women are starting to feel safer in the sense that it seems like maybe he was arrested or gone, or who knows? Which is the perfect time for him in his opinion.

• 5:44:30Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, this meant that people took their walls down, didn't stay as vigilant as they would have. And then November 9th, which is right around the 8, 9, 30, 31 kind of pattern he's going in, November 9th, his final victim was found lying completely hacked to death on her own bed in the room 13 Miller's Court off Dorset Street in Spitalfields. The scene of her murder is one that will definitely always go down as the worst and most gruesome in history. Absolutely. Now, interestingly, and probably purposefully, in my opinion, this was also happened to be Lord Mayor's Day in London, which involved celebrating the new Lord Mayor.

• 5:45:13Speaker 01

  And it is an annual event that still happens. This would mean that there would be tons of police at the event and the rest of the city would be pretty much on their own. This was such a prime moment for him to do his worst, most intricate and most time-consuming murder yet. It was distraction that was perfectly built in and it probably is why he didn't do any in October. He probably waited that month because he didn't want to risk being caught before he could use this specific distraction to complete his magnum opus. He didn't want to get caught in October and not be able to do this thing that I think he had planned all along. Okay. So this woman that they found was Mary Jane Kelly.

• 5:45:56Speaker 01

  She was known later as Ginger, Fair Emma, Dark Mary, Black Mary and Mary Jeanette. Oh, I like the last one. Yeah. So she was only 25 years old when she was murdered. She was very young, much younger than the previous victims. A lot of her history unfortunately is very sparse. It's questionable. She told a lot of tales, so we're not really sure. We hear a lot of it from like men she was with and like women who ran like brothels that she was living in. So we're hearing like bits and pieces of it. So I'll pass on what I found in most sources and what people think maybe at least most of the truest portions of her life. Now, she was born in Limerick in Ireland around 1863.

• 5:46:40Speaker 01

  She had at least eight or nine siblings. And when she was very young, her father, John Kelly, moved their family to South Wales because their home was being ravaged by the potato famine. Oh. He got a job there in the tin industry and things were going okay. Once there, they kind of moved in with her aunt. They were raised alongside cousins and Mary Jane grew up selling ribbons and other small trinkets to people at markets to make money. So she was taught from a young age to like hawk things. She was beautiful with pale blue eyes. She ended up having almost waist-length red hair, like beautiful. People, for her whole life, people fell all over themselves for her. Really? Yeah. And it's all through adulthood.

• 5:47:22Speaker 01

  At 16 years old, she met a man named John Davies, who was a coal miner. There are conflicting reports, but she married this man. And then she said that he died in a coal mining explosion. But it also could be that she just left him and moved to Cardiff with her cousin. So there are reports later that he never died and she was still actually legally married to him at her death. And I found her death certificate, which says her name is listed as Marie Jeanette Kelly, otherwise Davies. Huh. So she still, her last name was still Davies. Okay. So I think she was still married. Sounds like it. Now Marie Jeanette, we'll get into, that's not her legal name.

• 5:48:07Speaker 01

  That's what she liked to be called and that's what's on her birthstone. She just really liked France and she really liked her name being more French sounding. Fantastic. She was a Francophile. She was, exactly. Now, it was in Cardiff that she got into sex work to survive. She was without her husband's income and things were tough financially. There were not any opportunities for women outside of hawking items, like we said, and laundering. And again, without a place to be in a launderer's, you cannot launder items. So according to her later, very serious partner, who becomes like a big part of everything, his name was Joseph Barnett. She told him that between 1880 and 1881, she was admitted and spent about nine months in Cardiff Royal Infirmary.

• 5:48:51Speaker 01

  She said she was ill and she also said that she, that after she was there and like was a patient there, that she started, she got a regular job there. Sweeping and mopping the infirmary, like it was just something. She earned a little money, kept herself out of trouble. But as we see in all of these cases, these women were not the type to just stay in one place, hang out. They got bored. So this is when she moved to London in 1884. And she actually had some luck at first here. She was like a nursemaid for a few families. She became employed as a maid to a woman named Mary Cornelia Edwards. She only stuck with this one for a bit. It was like a really good job.

• 5:49:33Speaker 01

  She lived in a nice house, but this lady was like an older lady and she was like, I'm bored of this and I don't want to do it. So she was already looking for something else very quickly. She was also the kind of woman that people like really liked having around, like people liked being around her a lot. And she always had someone wanting to give her a chance to at least try. Right. And she would always give it her best shot, but she would get bored and move on. So clearly she was very likeable. Yeah, exactly. So through some connections, a woman named Ellen Mondrell hired her to be a quote unquote ladies maid in a house she ran with her sister Frederica. It was a high-class brothel and it was fronting as a finishing school located at 28 Collingham Place in Kensington. Okay.

• 5:50:17Speaker 01

  So her official job was ladies maid. I kind of love that it's a high-class brothel. It is very high-class. So she began making a lot of money there. Like she was making good money. She was able to do a lot of things she wanted to do. She was able to buy like cool clothes. She was really, it was, it was a good, good situation at first for her, like financially.

• 5:50:40Speaker 02

  Again, get a little luck.

• 5:50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 5:50:43Speaker 02

  Horrible.

• 5:50:44Speaker 01

  Now, at this point, she was very popular here. Our clients would request her specifically. She had many regulars that would come back all the time. This is, this is when she really got the nickname Ginger. Everybody would call her that there. They said she was vivacious, happy, very kind. People really were drawn to her in and outside of her work. And she had a beautiful singing voice and she was known to always be smiling.

• 5:51:08Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 5:51:08Speaker 01

  She was said to have, quote, possessed of considerable personal attractions. Now, this, which is a very nice thing to say.

• 5:51:17Speaker 01

  This is where she became very acquainted with 49-year-old Frances Craig. He was a newspaper reporter that went to her regularly. He had been an editor of the paper, but was fired after stealing another reporter's work.

• 5:51:31Speaker 02

  Plagiarizing.

• 5:51:32Speaker 01

  From another, another paper as well.

• 5:51:35Speaker 02

  Not good.

• 5:51:36Speaker 01

  After a while of seeing Mary Jane on a constant basis at the brothel, he asked her to come to Paris with him, where he could get her a job at a really high-class place, like a gentleman's club, he said.

• 5:51:47Speaker 02

  Nice.

• 5:51:48Speaker 01

  She went, but only lasted a couple of weeks before she got homesick. And she was like, I just want to go home.

• 5:51:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got that.

• 5:51:53Speaker 01

  So they went back to London and on Christmas Eve, after only knowing each other for a few weeks, they were married.

• 5:51:59Speaker 02

  Hot.

• 5:52:00Speaker 01

  It lasted three months before she just up and left him.

• 5:52:04Speaker 02

  Alrighty.

• 5:52:04Speaker 01

  They were complete opposites.

• 5:52:06Speaker 02

  He was probably the worst.

• 5:52:08Speaker 01

  They were very opposite. And the marriage was not one of love for her. So she was like, I'm out. She made her way to the East End because that was her only choice in desperation. Things always get to the, get to a place of East End.

• 5:52:20Speaker 02

  Cause she couldn't go back to the high-class place?

• 5:52:23Speaker 01

  No, she had left and they weren't going to take her back. Now Craig hired a P I. to find her.

• 5:52:29Speaker 02

  Oh, that's scary.

• 5:52:31Speaker 01

  The P I. found out she was working the streets in the East End as a sex worker and Craig was furious. In fact, he became a suspect at one point.

• 5:52:39Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 5:52:40Speaker 01

  Now, this woman named Mrs. Elizabeth Boku, I believe it is, ran a brothel at 79 Pentagon Street. And she soon recruited Mary Jane to work there. So she had to work for her rent money there. And because she was working such a stressful and horrific job, dealing with men who were abusive and awful sometimes, she started drinking very heavily.

• 5:53:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:53:02Speaker 01

  Just to numb it all out.

• 5:53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:53:05Speaker 01

  She, like Catherine Eddes, wore every piece of clothing she owned because she was very paranoid that somebody was going to steal things. She started wanting to be called Marie Jeanette after, because she had been to Paris now.

• 5:53:16Speaker 02

  Love, love, love.

• 5:53:17Speaker 01

  The thing that is constant is her personality when sober was something people adored.

• 5:53:22Speaker 02

  Really?

• 5:53:22Speaker 01

  But the other way, not so much. They said when she was sober, she was, quote, "a good, quiet, pleasing girl and was well-liked by all of us." That's what one of her friends said. So she moved on to Mrs. Mary McCarthy's brothel at One Breezer's Hill. She was like bonking around everywhere. Later, she said about Mary Jane that she was, quote, "one of the most decent and nicest girls you could meet when sober."

• 5:53:46Speaker 02

  They always have to say, "when sober."

• 5:53:49Speaker 01

  She left there in 1886. She took up lodging at, you know, a bunch of different lodging houses, Doss houses. She just, she would stay with clients sometimes, like take up with these men and just kind of get a roof over her head. She would not go to a workhouse. She was like, I'm not doing that, which I don't blame her.

• 5:54:03Speaker 02

  I don't either.

• 5:54:05Speaker 01

  One of these clients that she took up with for a little while was Joseph Fleming, who was a client that she lived with on Bethel Green Road. She really liked him, according to a lot of people who knew her at the time. And like, I think their relationship kind of continued on the sly for a while.

• 5:54:20Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:54:21Speaker 01

  She has these certain relationships that I'm like, I feel like that was like kind of lovely. And I don't know if she would stay.

• 5:54:27Speaker 02

  Why'd you stay there?

• 5:54:27Speaker 01

  Like, maybe that would have worked, but we don't know anything about it. So I can't even say it. Now, in 1887, she moved to Spitalfields and was staying at Cooney's on Flower and Dean Street, where Catherine Eddes had been staying before her murder.

• 5:54:40Speaker 02

  Thought so. As soon as you said it, I was like, yeah.

• 5:54:42Speaker 01

  You're like, wait a second. There's a real possibility that they met and knew each other. And this is when she really fell further into heavy drinking and relying purely on sex work for money. She wasn't making money anywhere else. So now she was a full-time. Now, April 8th, 1888, she met a man named Joseph Barnett at the Ten Bells Pub, which is still up and you can go there.

• 5:55:04Speaker 02

  We have to go.

• 5:55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And at, yeah, and at one point it was named, they named it The Jack the Ripper or something like that.

• 5:55:11Speaker 02

  That's heinous.

• 5:55:12Speaker 01

  And then moved it back to the, and it's like, yeah.

• 5:55:16Speaker 02

  Let's think about branding before we go full send.

• 5:55:18Speaker 01

  That one's, first of all, that's just a bad name.

• 5:55:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55:21Speaker 01

  It just doesn't sound good. And then second of all, it's like, come on.

• 5:55:24Speaker 02

  Like, really?

• 5:55:24Speaker 01

  That's, I don't know about that.

• 5:55:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:55:26Speaker 01

  But it's a Ten Bells Pub. He was a laborer. He was Irish as well.

• 5:55:31Speaker 02

  Love.

• 5:55:32Speaker 01

  He was a kind man. It said he was very awkward, very like, just quiet. They got along and literally the next day they met again for a drink. And then they were like, do you want to just live together?

• 5:55:44Speaker 02

  Fuck, yeah. I just love the like spontaneity.

• 5:55:47Speaker 01

  The spontaneity. It's just like, let's go for it.

• 5:55:50Speaker 02

  Do it. What else? I mean, what the fuck else are you gonna do?

• 5:55:52Speaker 01

  Honestly, at this point, so this was kind of like Catherine Eddes and John Kelly. They just like lodged together at Doss and Lodging Houses.

• 5:55:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:56:00Speaker 01

  They were acting as husband and wife. Like, that's just the way it was.

• 5:56:03Speaker 02

  Well, and I'm sure, sorry to interrupt you, I'm sure it probably helped them to, to feel like a little sense of protection.

• 5:56:09Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 5:56:09Speaker 02

  Like somebody's looking out for them.

• 5:56:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, like that's exactly it. Like you guys are looking out for each other.

• 5:56:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:56:15Speaker 01

  So Dorset Street was a regular place for them to stay together. We all remember what Dorset Street is. It's like the worst one.

• 5:56:21Speaker 02

  Sure do.

• 5:56:21Speaker 01

  She was still earning small amounts of, like out on the streets. Barnett did not want her to be doing that work. He was not happy with that.

• 5:56:30Speaker 02

  Well, especially now he knows what's going on too.

• 5:56:33Speaker 01

  Exactly. And when he had met her, she said that she made money by making silk flowers and selling them. And he was like, that's not what you do.

• 5:56:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:56:41Speaker 01

  So when he found out that that's what her full-time job was, he was a little, little peeved.

• 5:56:47Speaker 02

  Well, I would have said, sir, what else do you expect me to do?

• 5:56:50Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 5:56:50Speaker 02

  Teach me a skill?

• 5:56:51Speaker 01

  You're gonna teach me a skill? You're gonna get me a job?

• 5:56:54Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 5:56:54Speaker 01

  So he got a job and he was like, I'm going to try to like support us. So you don't have to do that.

• 5:56:59Speaker 02

  A skill.

• 5:57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it seemed like they really liked each other and that he possibly like loved her at one point, I feel like.

• 5:57:06Speaker 02

  I think he did. It sounds like it.

• 5:57:07Speaker 01

  Care about her. She started getting heavier and heavier into drinking now. It was getting a reputation, a reputation around town for being angry and aggressive when drunk. Because as you heard, everybody says she was the fucking bees knees when sober. So she would fight other women if they were on what she considered her turf. When she was intoxicated, she was described as many, by many as, quote, "coralsome and abusive." And, and this one's not even like an insult. She would go about, go about forever singing. So when she got drunk, she would just sing her heart out. I'm like, that's awesome. I love that.

• 5:57:42Speaker 02

  People do that.

• 5:57:43Speaker 01

  Coralsome and abusive, not great, but like.

• 5:57:45Speaker 02

  Coralsome, all right, abusive, oh, no.

• 5:57:48Speaker 01

  Not great, but singing?

• 5:57:50Speaker 02

  Great.

• 5:57:50Speaker 01

  Get it, girl.

• 5:57:51Speaker 02

  Keep, continue.

• 5:57:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. In the spring, they were able to, the two of them, Joseph and her, were able to rent a room at, and the room was number 13 Miller's Court. And it was right off of Dorset Street. So not in a good place. And this place was, whoa.

• 5:58:06Speaker 02

  And not great.

• 5:58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. This was about only a quarter of a mile away from Annie Chapman's murder site. It was heinous. It was like 13 feet by 10 feet big. The, the son later referred to it as, quote, "misery is written all over the place, the worst kind of London misery."

• 5:58:26Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 5:58:26Speaker 01

  It had a fireplace. So that was nice.

• 5:58:29Speaker 02

  Misery all over the place.

• 5:58:31Speaker 01

  Had a fireplace. So there's that.

• 5:58:32Speaker 02

  Look at you, like use the low home.

• 5:58:34Speaker 01

  That's, I was just gonna say.

• 5:58:35Speaker 02

  Fireplace?

• 5:58:35Speaker 01

  I'm gonna go get my real estate license. I'm like, it has a fireplace.

• 5:58:38Speaker 02

  It's got character.

• 5:58:40Speaker 01

  And you know what? It has a bed, has an iron bed with nothing else on it except for a dirty old mattress and a bedside table, which you can use to push against the door because that lock probably won't work to keep people out. So.

• 5:58:52Speaker 02

  Yay.

• 5:58:52Speaker 01

  Come on in. It also had, everywhere I kept reading, said it had this single piece of art over the fireplace. And it was called The Fisherman's Widow. And it's such a sad, but beautiful piece of art.

• 5:59:06Speaker 02

  You got it over there?

• 5:59:07Speaker 01

  I do.

• 5:59:07Speaker 02

  Hold it up.

• 5:59:08Speaker 01

  I gotta show it to you because.

• 5:59:09Speaker 02

  Let me see.

• 5:59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's just this woman who looks to be wailing on someone's like, like laying on the ground, but on like some older woman's lap. Yeah. And she seems to just be like in stricken with grief. Yeah. She's like in pieces. And of course it's called the Fisherman's Widow, but I'm like, what an ominous piece of art to have in that dark, sad room. Like just having that sad piece of art. Can we put a flower? I was literally just gonna say, I'm not even a fan of flower art. Like, I really am not, but put flowers in that room. Something in that room. That's gotta be dark. I mean, when you look at pictures, again, we'll post pictures of like, you know, what, where this,

• 5:59:56Speaker 01

  what this place looked like, because they have pictures of the outside of it. Ooh, it really is one of those places you look at and you just go, oh, man. Like, I feel sad just looking at that. Like, I, I feel like it had to have had a vibe there. That was just like really tough. Yeah. But it had art. Well, because you think of, I mean, the energy of the people in the home goes with the energy of the home. Exactly. And it's like, this was a place that a lot of sex workers rented rooms there. Right. And they used it to bring clients back and all that. So it was like a place of desperation. And it was a place where they all kind of had to help each other, which they did. They all like tried to protect each other and like look out for each other. So it was kind of like a little community, but it was all based out of desperation and

• 6:00:40Speaker 01

  that's what made it sad. Now, in fact, it was later reported in various outlets that Mary Jean Kelly and Annie Chapman definitely knew each other. Right. And they may have, and the fact, obviously, that she was staying at Flower and Dean Street at Cooney's meant she definitely had run into Catherine Eddo's at any point. And again, these are like, this is a community of women who are likely seeing each other on a regular basis. They definitely know who each other is. They've run into each other. I bet. Which makes it even scarier that they're like losing friends. Yeah, it does. But unfortunately, Joseph lost his job in summer 1888, and she had to turn to more sex work to avoid like being kicked out. Losing everything, yeah.

• 6:01:23Speaker 01

  And they were very behind on rent. The guy, I think his name was John McCarthy was the landlord. He was like, okay. And he knew that this was like a big community of basically like just only sex workers in here. And he didn't want to be like, hey, I'm running a like brothel here. But like, he was like, he would let them be behind a little bit because he knew that they could pay for it later. Like, he was just kind of like, oh. He knew what was up. It was, it was a shady operation for sure, but one that I think just wasn't being paid, paid attention to because it wasn't really hurting anyone at the time, I guess. Now, while there, it's reported in a lot of sources that Joe Barnett, Joseph

• 6:02:03Speaker 01

  Barnett, would say later in the inquest that she often had him read her the newspaper reports of the Whitechapel murders. And it was because she was so scared of it that she just wanted to like talk about it with someone. Like, she was like. Talk it through. And I think she just needed some reassurance, like this won't happen to you. Like, I'm here. So she would be like, just read me the next one. She wanted to be prepared to, like, where is it happening? What were the clues? What are they telling us about it? Like, who can I look out for? What are the, what are the guys that people are saying they saw with these last women? So I can avoid them, like that kind of thing. But it's really sad that she was literally sitting in that room where she would later be massacred. Yeah. Being like, oh, I hope I'm not the next one. Right.

• 6:02:45Speaker 01

  Now, they had also lost their room key at one point. So they had used the broken, because we'll talk about this in a second. They had a broken window. I'll tell you how it became broken. It gets worse. They had a broken window and they'd use the broken window to kind of like unlatch the door from the outside when they had to come in, because it automatically locked when you were inside. Like, it was like a spring loaded kind of thing. That's cool. So from the outside, you didn't need like, you needed a key to get in, but from the inside, it would just automatically lock. Right. Now, by November, unfortunately, they were fighting a lot. Well, they're in a 13 by 10 room. They're in a tiny room. They are struggling financially. They're hearing from John McCarthy,

• 6:03:29Speaker 01

  like every day, you're behind this much on rent. She's, she's resorting to sex work. She's trying her best. He's not happy about it. And because of all this, she was starting to drink even heavier. It was getting worse and worse. This was also making Joseph mad. Like, it just was a spiraling cycle of terrible things. I was gonna say terror and then I said terrible. So it was like terrible. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible things. And her landlord, John McCarthy, was quoted later at the inquest as saying, quote, "I very often saw deceased worse for drink. She was a very quiet woman when sober, but noisy when in drink. She was not ever helpless when drunk." So like, she could take care of her shit when she was drunk. Love that.

• 6:04:11Speaker 01

  Now, people often commented, like I said, on her very drastic change in behavior and personality when she was drinking. She became at this point being called Dark Mary and Black Mary because she was getting further and further into that. That's really sad. Now, Joseph Barnett later said about this time that people knew her as quiet and sweet, and she was again when she was sober, but quote, "When in drink, she had a lot more to say." Don't we all? Which I love that quote. Now, at this time, she was also bringing back a lot of her friends who needed somewhere to stay. If one of her friends on the street was like, I don't have anywhere to stay at a lodging, or I didn't make any money tonight. Yeah. She would have them come back to her tiny, tiny little place and stay. Well, and she's being careful. Like, she's looking out for them so that they're

• 6:04:56Speaker 01

  not the next victim. She cares. She does. She's a good friend. She's a good lady. Now, these, these were, they would all help each other in this like court, of course, but she was actually taking people that weren't even living here back there. This was not what Joseph Barnett wanted. He was not happy. He was, again, against the whole street life to begin with. And he also was like, this is a postage stamp that we're staying in. And like, now you're adding another person to this. He wasn't understanding like her full range of compassion that she was showing every single person. Empathy, dude. Yeah. So they fought a lot about this and they fought through later October and

• 6:05:37Speaker 01

  early November. Then in November, she brought another friend to stay with them. And after a huge fight where they broke a window, that's where the window was broken, or she broke the window, it said, he walked out and they never lived together again. That was their breaking point. Did they see each other? They did, because they did stay friends. Okay, good. And he would come and give her money whenever he had some to spare. So I think he loved her. That's the thing. I really think he loved her. I think they just weren't compatible. No, he also is like one of the only men in this story that sounds like a good man. That seems like he tried. Yeah. That he gave it his best shot. Because there was no mention of him abusing her whatsoever. Nobody that I could see in any reports said that there was abuse of any kind that

• 6:06:22Speaker 01

  they saw. In fact, most people said that they seemed like, in fact, one said they seemed like a darling couple. Yeah. And they would quarrel. That's all that you would hear. They would quarrel and you would hear that. Right. And that she got a little, a little. A little rowdy. A little rowdy. Sometimes. But I didn't see any reports of abuse. Of course, it was 1880. Yeah, but this sounds like the, I think this is the first time that we've talked about a victim who, whose other half didn't abuse them. Yeah. It's like him and John Kelly. I think John Kelly, we don't have an actual report of abuse there either. But they did break up. They did stay friends. He tried to help her out. Later at her inquest, he said they broke up, quote, "Because she had a woman of bad character there." Oh, okay.

• 6:07:07Speaker 01

  Whom she took in out of compassion. And he said, "She only let them because she was good hearted and did not like to refuse them shelter on cold, bitter nights. We lived comfortably until Marie allowed a prostitute named Julia to sleep in the same room. I objected, and as Mrs. Harvey afterwards came, so another person came after her, and stayed there, I left and took lodgings elsewhere." Okay. So even then, he's like, she's a compassionate, amazing human being, who just doesn't want people sleeping outside in the bitter nights, but I can't handle it. It's just too small of a room. And I don't want to deal with it. Also understandable. Now, somebody who lived in the Miller's Courts, Elizabeth Pratter, she was able to verify this entire series of events because she said she saw the whole thing. She saw

• 6:07:52Speaker 01

  the broken window. She saw him leave. She's like, I can clear it. Like, the whole thing happened the way he's saying it happened. Okay. Now, the night of her murder, November 8th, she did see Joseph Barnett that evening. And it was friendly. He came by. They hung out together. I'm like happy that she got to see him in a weird way. And then he got to see her. Yeah. Now, like I said, he would give her money when he had some extra ones. And I think he did that, that night. But later, she was seen drinking at the Ten Bells Pub, the Britannia, and the Horn of Plenty. Now she was seen with several men's, you know, slash clients throughout the night. She was clearly trying to make some extra money. I think she was probably trying to make extra money because the next day we see that somebody comes to collect her back rent. And that's who finds her.

• 6:08:36Speaker 01

  I think she knew rent was due. I gotta make some money because she was up a lot. Like she was with a lot of men this night and she was up for a long time. I think she was trying to make that money. She had a lot of rent to make up. Yeah, cuz I think she was something like thirty shillings behind or something like that, which was like quite a bit. Now, eleven forty-five PM, her neighbor and friend from Miller's Court, Mary Ann Cox, saw her coming home with a stout man in his thirties with a reddish mustache. He was also described by witnesses as having a blotchy face, like many of them said that. Rude. It could have been from drinking because he was carrying a beer, I think, so I think he was just drunk. Yeah. Cox said to her, "Good night, Mary Jane." And she said she could tell she was very drunk, which she often would get drunk to do this kind of thing

• 6:09:21Speaker 01

  because she just wanted to get through it. And she said she slurred at her, "Good night, I'm going to have a song." And Cox herself was in and out working that night, but was back home for good around 3 AM. Her home was actually at the entrance of Miller's Court, so she saw a lot of the comings and goings. And she said she didn't hear anything out of the ordinary that evening, but she was again far away from her room. She saw a lot of men coming in and leaving, but this wasn't out of the ordinary. No. She said that evening was also raining quite a bit. Oh, okay. So you know that she was pretty desperate to get that money because she was out in the rain. Right. Now, later she was heard singing by a lot of her neighbors and she was singing old Irish songs in her room. And she did it for quite a long time, actually.

• 6:10:04Speaker 01

  Like at one point, another neighbor was like, she said she went to get up to be like, "You gotta quiet down." And her husband was like, "Leave the poor lady alone, just let her sing." Which of all nights, I'm happy it was that night that they let her sing. Now Elizabeth Pratter, who we talked about before, she was in the room directly above Mary Jane's room. And she could see a lot of her comings and goings and she could hear a lot of her comings and goings. Because according to Jack the Ripper Scotland Yard investigates, it was so flimsy built, this whole place, that she could even see the light going on and off in Mary Jane's room beneath her. Jesus. Just through the floorboards cuz it was so like. That's so scary. So she went to sleep around 1 AM and she said she woke up at between 3:30 AM and 4 AM

• 6:10:48Speaker 01

  because her kitten had been awake and startled by something. And she said when she woke with it, she heard the cry of, "Oh murder." Jesus. But it was so normal to hear that, that she just went to sleep. To hear, "Oh murder." And she said, and people like backed her up and were like, "Oh, I wouldn't do anything if I heard that either." People were just yelling, "Oh murder." Oh murder. And she said she listened for a second and she said, "I only heard the lady scream at once, so I figured it was fine." Oh, wow. That's how rough Dorset Street was and Whitechapel in general, but they're on Dorset Street. That shit, like you hear, "Oh murder" and like a wail of, "Oh murder." And Jack the Ripper has been cruising around this area.

• 6:11:31Speaker 01

  Thinking like, but it was so normal at that point that she did not even blink an eye. That's wild. Isn't that nuts? Yes. Wild. So around 4 AM, Sarah Lewis of Two Millers Court, she also heard someone yell, "Oh murder." And this was around 4 AM too, right around the same time, so she probably heard the same one. Same one, yeah. But she ignored it and went to sleep too because she said, "We hear it all the time." Okay. Now, the next day, ten forty-five AM, the landlord's assistant, Thomas Boyner, or excuse me, Bowyer, went to collect rent for Mary Jane. No one answered when he knocked, so he looked into the broken window and he saw the scene that we know to be the scene. He saw two giant heaps of blood and flesh sitting on the bedside table.

• 6:12:16Speaker 01

  And on the bed was the mutilated human form of Mary Jane Kelly. He ran to get the landlord, John McCarthy, who came to the scene and immediately called police. Inspector Aberline, our dude, he was brought on scene, he was a badass immediately. Right away, he called for the entirety of Miller's Court to be cordoned off and no one be allowed to go in and no one be allowed to come out. Good. Dr. Baxter Phillips, my dude, he was called. He came on scene and he immediately called for Sir Charles Warren to arrive. And he said, "Bring his new found, his like new fangled bloodhounds and see if we can get a trail." Because that was the new thing, he was trying not like bloodhounds. All right. He said, "No one should be allowed inside the room until this is done. We don't wanna like fuck up the trail." Yeah. So they're like on it. Yeah.

• 6:13:01Speaker 01

  Like, "Let's do this right, guys." Hell, yeah. We have a room to work with now, let's really do this police work right. Well, that's the thing, they act, I mean, it was. Everything else has been out in the street. Yeah. So they've done the best they could, I suppose, but this one, they're like, "Okay, we really gotta take this as like an opportunity." They're probably hopeful that they'll find something. That's the thing, they're like, "We need to contain this because we, he finally gave us a room to work with and let's make sure we don't fuck this up." Right. So he's like, "Go call Sir Charles Warren." But Sir Charles Warren no longer sat in the position of Commissioner of Metropolitan Police Force at that time. He had resigned the day before. The day before. And it was not made public yet or passed down to any of these people, so they had no idea.

• 6:13:46Speaker 01

  What, this case is just a series of unfortunate, unfortunate events. It's so true. Just like nothing ever works out in this case. And I'll tell you, this is the whole Sir Charles Warren story of why this happened. When he first came on in that position, he had problems with the structure of the police department because it felt like it was lacking, he was lacking control and was under the thumb of the home security, the Home Secretary, Henry Matthews, who he butted heads with. Okay. So he actually tendered a resignation back then, like way in the beginning, he tendered a resignation, but it was not accepted. You can't, wait, what? Yeah, you can like not accept a resignation, which I always think is very weird that you're just like, "No."

• 6:14:32Speaker 01

  I didn't know that. You're like, "I quit," and they're like, "No, you don't." What? I mean, you can still leave though, like what? Like, I do, but you would leave under like bad circumstances. Wow. So it's so wild, he was just like, "Too bad." Now, back then, back in May, before Robert Anderson was head of the CID, a guy named James Monroe had the job. He and Matthews were kinda like brosy, like they were pretty tight. And they clashed with Warren a lot. It sounds like a lot of people clashed with Warren. Now, before Warren could tender another resignation, cuz he was like, "I can't handle this shit, like I'm out." He, Monroe did it first. He tendered his own resignation, but then he immediately was hired back into the Home Secretary office.

• 6:15:18Speaker 01

  So in a similar position, which is so shady, he resigned, then came back in a different position above Warren. Damn. Which you know was Henry Matthews' deal, like he did that on purpose. Yup. So that pissed Warren off, which I understand. Of course. Now, I mentioned earlier that the people of Whitechapel were calling for the resignation of either Matthews or Warren pretty loudly at this point. They had lost faith in the police, something had to change. So Matthews looked for a way around this to save his own butt. Of course. Of course. See, recently, Sir Charles Warren had written an article about the police in Murray's magazine. This was not weird, public figures would do this, but the rule was that they had to stay anonymous if you were on the police force.

• 6:16:01Speaker 01

  And he wrote this article about basically like the disorganization of the police, like he was complaining about how this structure doesn't work and that everybody needs to be on this. He was, he was right. Okay. But unfortunately, he used his name when he put the article in there. And he didn't care, he was like, "I don't care, you guys can read it." But he didn't know that that was a rule, that you can't do that, you can get in trouble for doing that. Okay. So people knew he wrote it, Matthews used this and he brought it to his attention. He was like, "You broke a rule, like you were not supposed to put your name onto this." And Warren's response was basically like, "Okay, one, no one told me that rule when I, when I got this job." Like, "Somebody should have told me that." It's not like they hand you like a handbook back then.

• 6:16:45Speaker 01

  So he was like, "Somebody needs to tell me that, why would I know?" And then he said, "Basically, that's a stupid rule." And he's like, "If I knew that rule, which I didn't, I never would have taken this job." Cuz he's like, "I would never like anonymously say my piece, like I'm saying my piece or I'm not." He said, "I'm upfront about things." Exactly. So that's how strongly he felt about it too. He was like, "Fuck that, I would have never taken this job." Wow. Well, Matthews was like, "Okay, cool. Well, now you can either resign and keep your convictions that you, you would never stand for this rule, or you can look stupid and stay after you just told me that you would never have even taken this job if you knew that rule. And now you have to abide by that rule that you said you never would have even taken this job with." So he threw up the deuce real quick.

• 6:17:30Speaker 01

  He certainly did, so Warren resigned. He was like, "Nope, I'm not gonna stay here and look like an idiot." All right. So Matthews put Monroe in his fucking position. Yeah, that's called favoritism. Petty bitches up in here, I have never seen anything, I was like, "Girls, settle down." Jesus. Ridiculous. A series of serial murders, serial mutilations happening. I was gonna say. And you're all sitting here being like, "Well, you're a bitch, well, you're a bitch, well, you're a bitch, well, he's a bitch, well, because you're a bitch, I'm gonna be a bitch." It's like, can you just, I don't know, do your job? Get it together. Also, Warren, didn't you say like four minutes ago that you were, if you were given the time, you could solve these murders in like three minutes? Now you have the time, you don't have a job.

• 6:18:14Speaker 01

  Now, you are unemployed. Let's go. You're fun-employed now, Warren, let's go.

• 6:18:21Speaker 01

  He didn't. Spoiler alert. He did not solve these crimes. Yeah. So it was not, it was only four days after he resigned that it was made public. Okay. So, and he had resigned the day before Mary Jane Kelly's murder. Were people pissed? Yes. And it made it seem very weird, the timing, in that it was totally related to his inability to solve these murders. Uh huh. But that wasn't it. It was, I mean, I'm sure that contributed to the stress of everything and the disorganization. Right. But it was mostly just inter-office bullshit and egos that he resigned because of. But it, but no one knew he had resigned when the murder happened. So they're like, go get Charles Warren. And they're like, he doesn't work here anymore. No, no.

• 6:19:02Speaker 01

  So now Superintendent Arnold is on the scene and they're waiting for the bloodhounds, who have been sold back to their owners at this point. And a commissioner who is no longer employed by the, by the Metro Police Board. They don't even have the bloodhounds now? We don't even have the bloodhounds. And that sucks because they probably could have gotten something. They could have. And these bloodhounds were like a new thing. And they were, everybody was suspicious of them and like, they didn't know if that was gonna work. And their owners also just like, didn't like it. And they didn't want them known that they were police bloodhounds because they didn't want criminals. Retaliation. Like killing the dogs or like trying to poison their food or something like that to, because they were like, oh, they're gonna find me out. Which I'm like, what the fuck, everybody? Fucking wreck.

• 6:19:47Speaker 01

  So 1:30 PM rolls around and Superintendent Arnold is like, okay, so I guess Warren isn't showing up and no bloodhounds are coming. And what should we do? And they were like, you know what? Bust through the, we gotta get in this. We gotta get in here. This body's just sitting there rotting at this point. Like, let's get in there. So they did. They were like, we have to just go with it. But what they did was they opened the door by having John McCarthy ax it open. Which I was like. Here's Johnny. This is because the door was locked, but like I said, they lost the key a while back. And only they knew that you could like, reach in the window to open that latch. But that's interesting because that means that the person that killed her likely had to have

• 6:20:29Speaker 01

  already been in that room with her. They probably didn't break in because they wouldn't have known to unlock that latch the way that they did. I was just, would you assume that it was just a client that she brought back? That's what I assumed. Yeah. But they definitely were like, entertaining the possibility that this was somebody who came in after she was asleep. Okay. But I think it was, she fell asleep after being with a client. Yeah. Or she, or not even asleep. She might've just rolled over. Yeah. And he caught her by surprise as he was getting dressed, like, you know? But interesting. So Dr. Phillips noted that the carotid artery was likely what killed her immediately, but he could not say for sure because he was like, wow, there's a lot here. He was hopeful. That was it, basically.

• 6:21:09Speaker 01

  Blood was everywhere. It was all over the walls. It was all over the bed. It was all over the sheets, the floor. It was soaking a two-foot radius on the floor next to the bed. She had clearly been moved while bleeding heavily as well. Okay. Which was interesting. The fire was blazing in the fireplace. And there were remnants of her, of her clothing and other clothing. A hat was in the ashes. So he had all, they figured he had probably kept the fire going by throwing pieces of her clothing in there because he probably needed the light. Yep. Because it was really dark. But what's weird is, like I said, the fire was blazing. So it was so large and so hot, it melted the spout off the kettle that was hanging in there.

• 6:21:54Speaker 01

  Which, that's a, that's a hot and very blazing fire. And for a while. And they were like, clothing wouldn't keep it blazing like that for that long. So they were like, what the fuck did he put in the fire? Did they figure it out? They never figured out what it was. They could only find the remnants of the clothing and the hat. And they were like, something else is here or he just left. I know that I'm psychotic, but like, what if Jack the Ripper really, truly was a fucking demon? Honestly, it's not. I know I'm crazy, but like. Honestly, at this point, it's not even that crazy to really think about it. It's still weird. It's a weird, what did he throw in that fire to keep that thing blazing the way it was? Like, everything, it would have died out eventually.

• 6:22:37Speaker 01

  Maybe oil from a lantern? Maybe. But like you, a lantern's not gonna have that much oil, you know? It's like, when did he put it in? Right. Did he just leave? Like, what the fuck? And so this guy named Dr. Thomas Bond attended the scene and the autopsy as well. Now, this was shady. Oh. Okay. Oh. I'm a Dr. Phillips head here, okay? I'm a stan of Dr. Phillips. I'm a Phillips head screwdriver here. Okay. Now, Warren had previously told CID head Anderson there that he should have Dr. Bond consult about the level of anatomical knowledge that this killer

• 6:23:17Speaker 01

  must have to commit these crimes. He considered him the expert and not any other doctors who were there. Which, Dr. Phillips was at every crime scene. Yeah. Okay? He was at every fuck, five out of five. He knows what's up. Five out of five crime scenes. Dr. Phillips was at five out of five autopsies. Like, he, what? That was shady to just not include him in this and take his word. Thing. Yeah, it definitely, everything's an ego thing. But Bond gave expert opinions on all five of the canonical victims, but he was not present at four of the scenes. He was only present at Mary Jane Kelly's. So then how do you even have an opinion, sir? It's fake. It's bullshit. Yeah. Justice for Dr. Phillips is what I say. They didn't give him a goddamn map.

• 6:24:02Speaker 01

  They didn't give him the proper shit he needed. And then they just ousted him at the end and are like, you're not the expert. Dr. Bond is. I'd be like, fuck you. Hundreds of years later, Elena's starting a campaign for this man. That's right. I know nothing else about him. I hope he's a good guy, but whatever. Regardless of what he is in his personal life, I think he was a good doctor. I think so. And he gave good insight. He was at all these cases. The biggest thing is just, he was there. He was at the scene. He did the autopsy. The man who you consider an expert was at one. Yeah, so that's cool. And it's the last one. That's cool that Dr. Bond was just at the last one. And he was like, hey, I'm the expert, everybody. Like, just bringing a ringer at the end? Get out of here. That's bullshit. So he gave off, well, he gave estimates for the timeframes between the murders and their discoveries

• 6:24:47Speaker 01

  for all of the scenes, by the way. You weren't there. And he was super off. Of course, because. He was very off. He wasn't there. He gave giant wide estimates that anybody could have made. Get out of here. Yeah. And then he said that this killer had no anatomical knowledge. And he said, not even the kind of butcher would have or someone who slaughtered animals. Girl, bye. Dr. Bond and I are not friends. Like, why are you here? We are not friends. Get on out. I do not agree with him. I don't subscribe to his bullshit. I do not receive that. I don't receive Dr. Bond. I think Dr. Bond needs to leave. I want Dr. Phillips back in here. Bring Baxter back in. No new friends, no new friends, no, no, no.

• 6:25:31Speaker 01

  No new friends, Dr. Phillips. Yes. So Dr. Bond, he used absolutely. Not a friend of the pod. Just so you know, not a friend of the pod. Dr. Bond is not a friend of the pod. Dr. Phillips, yes. Friend of the pod. So he used absolutely no expertise, in my opinion, to physically describe what he thinks Jack the Ripper looked like. All he did was read the papers. That's what he did. He just looked at witness reports. And I'm like, oh, you got that? Yeah. From your fancy brain? I think you just read what I fucking read, Dr. Bond. That he was wearing a fucking coat. That's like, everybody said that. And of course he was, it's November. That's the thing. So he wrote this about the physical appearance. And you tell me if you think this is like, groundbreaking. Did he literally go, how's a coat?

• 6:26:17Speaker 01

  Basically. So he said, the murderer in external appearance is quite likely to be a quite inoffensive looking man, probably middle-aged and neatly and respectably dressed. Do you think you're saying that because every witness statement said that he was respectable looking? Yeah. And that he was neatly dressed? Yeah. And that he was mid-aged? Okay. Do you think maybe you're saying that? I just also love like, a not offensive looking man. Not offensive. Can you imagine if somebody horrified you as offensive looking? Offensive. I think he must be in the habit of wearing a cloak or overcoat. Cause it's November. Do you think because every witness statement said that he was wearing a coat? Yeah. And because it's fucking November? Or he could hardly have escaped notice to the streets if the blood on his hands or clothes was visible? That's not true. There were people that are butchers and they walk around all the time with blood all over them.

• 6:27:02Speaker 01

  So shut the fuck up, Dr. Bond. Yeah. Assuming the murderer to be such a person as I've just described, I don't. He would probably be solitary and eccentric in his habits. Okay, I kind of think that's right. Also, he is most likely to be a man without regular occupation, but with some small income or pension. He is possibly living among respectable persons who have some knowledge of his character and habits and who may have grounds for suspicion that he is not quite right in his mind at times. Yeah. Such persons would probably be unwilling to communicate suspicions to police for fear of trouble or notoriety. Whereas if he were a prospect of reward, it might overcome their scruples. Okay. So, okay. The physical description's stupid. You didn't need to say that. We all know.

• 6:27:45Speaker 01

  We all read the witness statements, man. We get it. He's wearing a coat. The end of it was pretty good. He's not a goblin. We know. But. Not offensive. I agree that he has to have some kind of earnings because he is visiting women of the night.

• 6:28:00Speaker 01

  And I doubt that he would get this far into a room without paying. Yep. You know, so that makes sense. He obviously is said to be looking respectable. So I'm assuming he has a little bit of money. It doesn't mean he's like, very well off. I would think that somebody who does this in, like, moonlights doing this would probably not be a very normal person in there, like, all the time. Yeah, they might be, they might stray a little bit. And I think people probably would be like, yeah, he's a little off. Like, he likes weird shit. And that's why I think he maybe is like, into medical shit. Cause he's probably one of those people that they're like, he's a little weird. Yeah. Like, he likes, he likes bones and shit. Like, he, like me. He would be like me. I was just gonna say, like, how people describe you. Yeah. But like, his is like, real. Like, his is, you gotta be actually worried about it.

• 6:28:45Speaker 01

  I'm always worried about you, TVH. As you should be. Yeah. I feel like that's like, how everybody should go through life. Just make everybody worried. Okay. I do that in a very different way. It's a good way to go through life. We worry people in completely separate ways. Now, I'm sure Dr. Bond has some kind of. Positive thing here, but I don't like him. I like Dr. Phillips. Okay, I'm a hater when it comes to Dr. Bond. I think that was kind of a lame statement. I could have come up with that myself, but okay, Dr. Bond. Thank you for that. So I'm just real mad about Dr. Phillips getting ousted. Okay?

• 6:29:19Speaker 02

  She's got like a pile of tomatoes ready and waiting.

• 6:29:22Speaker 01

  Because he's still doing the job. Dr. Phillips still does the job, but he's just not getting the glory here.

• 6:29:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not fair.

• 6:29:27Speaker 01

  Throwing Dr. Bond up there like he did it all. So Mary Jane was found wearing a chemise of some sort around what was left of her shoulders. Like you can see a very thin piece of fabric. Looking at the photo, you can see her left arm is bent and her hand is placed inside the hollowed out cavity of her abdomen. Her right arm was said to be lying on the bed next to her. Both of her arms were cut haggardly in many places. Her legs were placed wide open and knees bent out at extreme angles. The thighs were literally nonexistent. They were just bone.

• 6:30:00Speaker 02

  Wild.

• 6:30:01Speaker 01

  The flesh and muscle was carved away completely, as was that of the abdomen. The abdomen was disemboweled completely. Both of her breasts were carved off down to the chest plate. And one of them was placed under her own head and the other one was placed at her feet.

• 6:30:19Speaker 02

  Bizarre.

• 6:30:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:30:20Speaker 02

  Do you, what meaning would that have?

• 6:30:22Speaker 01

  They have been trying to come up with a meaning for that.

• 6:30:25Speaker 02

  Do you think that there is one? Or do you think it could have even been just him being like, yeah, they're gonna think this means something?

• 6:30:31Speaker 01

  I think it's very possible that he was like, I'm just gonna do this and see if what they come up with, because that'll be funny. Or he had a meaning in his head and we might not be able to figure it out. Because it's just his specific meaning that he placed.

• 6:30:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:30:45Speaker 01

  But her face was mangled and demolished, leaving only her pale blue eyes untouched. Her ears, mouth, nose and cheeks were slashed and carved to essentially ground meat.

• 6:30:59Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 6:31:00Speaker 01

  It was really bad. Her neck was torn open and severed in several places, almost completely removing her head from her body. Her groin, the entirety of her vagina was completely torn apart and removed. The left thigh was carved to the bone and only the femur was left down to her knee. Her calves were also hacked apart. All the flesh and muscle removed from all of these areas had been heaped in a pile on her bedside table.

• 6:31:26Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 6:31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now with, we said one of her breasts was at her feet. Her liver was also placed between her two feet. Her spleen was on the bed next to her body on the left side. And her intestines were completely removed and placed next to her on her right side on the bed.

• 6:31:45Speaker 02

  I can't think of another crime scene that is anywhere near this.

• 6:31:50Speaker 01

  No. And then her kidneys and uterus were removed and they were put with her other breast under her head.

• 6:31:57Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:31:58Speaker 01

  The heart had been removed, like carefully taken out. And it was nowhere to be found. And that is very symbolic to me.

• 6:32:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:32:07Speaker 01

  Like, where did the heart go?

• 6:32:09Speaker 02

  He took that. It's with the other half of the kidney.

• 6:32:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Now, the scene, according to the Illustrated Police News, this is how it was released later. The throat had been cut right across with a knife, nearly severing the head from the body. The abdomen had been partially ripped open and both of the breasts had been cut from the body. The left arm, like the head hung to the body by the skin only. So her arm was almost cut off as well. The nose had been cut off, the forehead skinned, and the thighs down to the feet stripped of flesh. The abdomen had been slashed with a knife across downwards and the liver and entrails wrenched away. The entrails and other portions of the frame were missing, but the liver, et cetera, it is said were found placed between the feet of this poor victim.

• 6:32:53Speaker 01

  The flesh from the thighs and legs, together with the breasts and nose, had been placed by the murderer on the table. And one of the hands of the dead woman had been pushed into her empty stomach. The details were not published at the time because it was that horrific.

• 6:33:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:33:07Speaker 01

  So the time of death was estimated between 3:30 and 4:00 AM, which aligns with the O murder sites that we heard from two witnesses. After all witnesses testified that like to who, when they saw her, like with different men, which we talked about earlier. Another witness came out a bit after them and said he had seen Mary Jane Kelly shortly before her death. At 2:00 AM on the night she died, she was on Flower and Dean Street, where she was seen by this witness and a good friend of hers, George Hutchison. She asked him for money, he said, and he didn't have any. She was just like, can you spare some shillings? And he was like, I can't even get a lodging myself because I don't have any money. So he said, you know, I'm looking for a bed. I'll let you know if I find one.

• 6:33:52Speaker 01

  And she told him she's looking to make some money because she was like, I, I just need money. So I'm gonna go find some. Now later, she was seen by him, speaking to and by a lot, a couple of other witnesses as well. Speaking to a man in his 30s who was pale complected, had a dark mustache and was wearing a long dark coat with a red handkerchief around his neck. We heard this similar description in another one of the murders. Several people saw them together. They were laughing and talking. He had his arm around her. And the way that George described it was when, when she saw this man, they both said something to each other and then like burst out laughing.

• 6:34:31Speaker 02

  Almost like they may have known each other.

• 6:34:33Speaker 01

  And he like threw his arm around her, like they knew each other. They were seen entering Miller's Court together. He also said that this man was carrying a package of some kind.

• 6:34:43Speaker 02

  Always is.

• 6:34:43Speaker 01

  And that he kept his head down with his hat tipped over his eyes. And he heard her say to him, all right, my dear, come along. You will be comfortable. And he said that he waited outside of Miller's Court. He followed them. Because he was like, I just wanted to like see, like this guy seemed off to me.

• 6:35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had a feeling.

• 6:35:03Speaker 01

  And he said he had known Mary Jane for like three years. And he's like, I just gave a shit. So he was like, I just wanted to make sure she was okay. So he walked to the end of Miller's Court and watched. And he watched them enter the house, the room. And he said he waited. And he was like, I was gonna wait to see if she came out. Some people think he was waiting because when he came out, she was gonna go in and be, he was gonna go in and be like, can I stay here? Because he had nowhere to stay.

• 6:35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35:26Speaker 01

  But who knows what was the real answer? He waited for a while. And he said he waited there and waited there and he didn't come out. So he said, that's when I left.

• 6:35:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35:35Speaker 01

  Who knows if this is the guy? And then he never came out of there until he was done.

• 6:35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:35:40Speaker 01

  And he's like, I don't know, but we have no idea. They questioned him a lot because they were worried that he was a suspect too, because he was claiming to be the last person.

• 6:35:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:35:50Speaker 01

  But she also, I mean, I would like, I like that she saw Joseph Barnett that last night.

• 6:35:57Speaker 02

  I do too.

• 6:35:57Speaker 01

  She ran into a ton of people that night. They all had similar stories. Two other people saw this guy with her. It, to me, that seems like, he might be the guy, that package he was holding.

• 6:36:08Speaker 02

  The package, the fact that he's, it's a similar description to a previous description. And especially the fact that he was keeping his head down.

• 6:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he seemed like he was like tipping the hat over his eyes.

• 6:36:20Speaker 02

  Not to like see my eyes.

• 6:36:21Speaker 01

  Like, I don't want too many people being able to describe me, kind of thing.

• 6:36:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have a feeling about this one.

• 6:36:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I will say that even the Queen at the time was pissed at the lack of action.

• 6:36:34Speaker 02

  Who's the Queen then?

• 6:36:35Speaker 01

  Queen Victoria.

• 6:36:36Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 6:36:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. On November 13th, shortly after this, she sent a letter to Home Secretary Henry Matthews. And she said, quote, "Have the cattle boats and passenger boats been examined? Has any investigation been made as to the number of single men occupying rooms to themselves? The murderer's clothes must be saturated with blood and must be kept somewhere. Is there sufficient surveillance at night?"

• 6:36:58Speaker 02

  I love that she's like, hey, are you guys doing fucking anything about this?

• 6:37:00Speaker 01

  I love that Queen Victoria was like, hey, fuckers.

• 6:37:03Speaker 02

  Like, get in line.

• 6:37:04Speaker 01

  Are you doing all this shit that you should be doing? It's like, hell yeah, Queen.

• 6:37:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, get it, girl.

• 6:37:08Speaker 01

  Like, all right. She's like, are you putting surveillance out at night? Have you, and I love how she's like, have you even investigated the number of single men renting rooms? Like, you idiots.

• 6:37:18Speaker 02

  Queen Victoria was like very beloved, wasn't she?

• 6:37:21Speaker 01

  I honestly don't know that. That's a good question. I should look that up right now to find out.

• 6:37:25Speaker 02

  Look it up, man.

• 6:37:26Speaker 01

  1888, Queen Victoria. Let's see.

• 6:37:28Speaker 02

  So, uh.

• 6:37:30Speaker 01

  We, there was some conflicting things, but from what I can see in the 1880s and 1890s, which is when this was going on. People seem to dig her. I almost knocked something off the wall. I got so excited about it. Um, the people seem to dig her.

• 6:37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:37:45Speaker 01

  She seemed to like, I think like in the beginning, she was looked at as like, kind of like harsh and shit. I don't know this for sure. So like, our British listeners, please tell us if you know better than we do, because you do, because you are there. Um, but she was apparently known as like, very straight talking.

• 6:38:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:38:03Speaker 01

  And like, very like, to the point, which I think people like, don't like sometimes. But apparently she was like, she was like, known as like, a good matriarchal, kind of like badass at the end, I think.

• 6:38:16Speaker 02

  All right. Well, three fun facts, because numero uno, she was a Gemini. So of course, there's conflicting feelings about her. And then also, Queen Victoria actually wasn't even her real name.

• 6:38:26Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 6:38:26Speaker 02

  Her name was Alexandrina Victoria. So she would go by Drina or Victoria.

• 6:38:33Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 6:38:34Speaker 02

  Because Victoria was the fifth in line of succession for the British Crown.

• 6:38:38Speaker 01

  Oh damn.

• 6:38:39Speaker 02

  And then also, she was the first member of the royal family to live at Buckingham Palace.

• 6:38:43Speaker 01

  Oh shit, look at that.

• 6:38:44Speaker 02

  And that is from 16 fascinating facts that you didn't know about Queen Victoria.

• 6:38:49Speaker 01

  There you go. I didn't know that. So there's that. But you know what? She was basically like, hey, Whitechapel Police Force and Metropolitan Police, can you get on it?

• 6:38:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:38:57Speaker 01

  Do you want me to do your job for you?

• 6:38:59Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 6:38:59Speaker 01

  Which is pretty Queen Victoria-ish. It sounds like it. So it makes sense. Um, so we are going to end there.

• 6:39:06Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 6:39:07Speaker 01

  Because.

• 6:39:08Speaker 02

  On my random ass question.

• 6:39:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, your random ass question.

• 6:39:10Speaker 02

  Perfect timing.

• 6:39:11Speaker 01

  Because now then, the fifth and final installment of this, I promise you, I promise you, is going to be the theories and the suspects.

• 6:39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, next week, she's gonna find like, eight more theories and be like, actually, we have two parts of theories.

• 6:39:23Speaker 01

  No, I swear to you, this is it. Because I was even, I was like, should I make it five? Should I try to cram it into this one? But I don't want to cram it in. I'd like it to be a, a fun discussion of like, who do we think did it? Who do we think didn't do it?

• 6:39:34Speaker 02

  Well, and I really, I think that's a great idea anyways, because then you're really separating like, theories from these people's lives, too.

• 6:39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:39:40Speaker 02

  And I think you really did a great job, because each episode went so deep into who the victim was, and not so much about like, Jack and all that yet.

• 6:39:49Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 6:39:50Speaker 02

  I really like how you said it.

• 6:39:51Speaker 01

  Because obviously, like, you know, who, Jack and his business is an important part of this, because it just is. This wouldn't be happening without, unfortunately, him. But I think, like, you know, they were people.

• 6:40:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I think that gets lost a lot of times.

• 6:40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think it's like, easy to be like, oh, these, you know, sex workers got killed in Whitechapel in 1880. And it's like, that's it. The canonical five, the end.

• 6:40:13Speaker 02

  We're all more than our jobs.

• 6:40:14Speaker 01

  And it's like, well, like, let's, like, just see how they got to where they got.

• 6:40:18Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:40:18Speaker 01

  And like, see what they were trying to do to survive, and how it was even more tragic that they were murdered while doing something that was, they got forced into out of desperation.

• 6:40:27Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:40:28Speaker 01

  So I think this has been like, a very interesting, I swear to you, I want to like, I, I want to become a Ripperologist now.

• 6:40:36Speaker 02

  We're gonna write a book about it.

• 6:40:37Speaker 01

  I'm into it now.

• 6:40:39Speaker 02

  Add your book to the list of books.

• 6:40:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll add it. Uh, but this has been like, really eye-opening and really interesting.

• 6:40:45Speaker 02

  It, it's been really, really interesting and fascinating to listen to.

• 6:40:48Speaker 01

  Thank you. And hopefully, we'll, we'll have some interesting conversation to end it out with the theories and suspects. And then we'll be moving on.

• 6:41:05Speaker 01

  This is, uh, the Jack the Ripper Podcast. Welcome back.

• 6:41:09Speaker 02

  Welcome back. Hope you had a nice little reprieve. Uh, it's over.

• 6:41:13Speaker 01

  It's gonna be over today. This is it. This is the last of it. Not for me, but the last of it for you, because I have officially become obsessed with this case and will not stop. So.

• 6:41:25Speaker 02

  Stop rocking to the rhythm.

• 6:41:27Speaker 01

  I will not stop. I can't stop. But I'm gonna stop shoving it in your face after this one. Uh, hopefully you guys enjoyed it. It seemed like you have, which has been nice to see. So I'm glad that I didn't like, force all this down your throat. And you're like, get the fuck away from me.

• 6:41:41Speaker 02

  No, everybody loved it. I do just feel compelled to go, Ron, stop.

• 6:41:46Speaker 01

  Stop.

• 6:41:46Speaker 02

  I just had to.

• 6:41:47Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop after this one, because I need to take a break from it. But this case is way more fascinating than I gave it credit for. And I saw a couple of people say, which I was like, thank you, I'm on the same page as you. They were like, I was actually bummed when I saw you were doing this, because I don't, I just never cared about Jack the Ripper, the case. Which I understand, like, sometimes these kind of cases, where it's like, a huge case that everyone knows, and everyone's heard, like, the general, usually the wrong story, funny enough. Uh, but I understand that, like, even I was like, oh, yeah, it's just one of those that you just like, oh, okay, I'll look at that later, you know, like.

• 6:42:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:42:28Speaker 01

  A lot of people were feeling that. And they said that they actually were like, actually, now I'm into it. Like, hearing it, I'm actually into it, which is cool. Because, wow, it's a crazy one.

• 6:42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:42:38Speaker 01

  And it's, it'll hook you if you get the right stuff, which hopefully, those books that I posted and all that stuff, all the different sources will get you hooked into it. And you can do some research, because this is the tip of the iceberg, what I've given you here.

• 6:42:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:42:53Speaker 01

  I think there's like.

• 6:42:54Speaker 02

  Probably a little bit more than the tip of the iceberg.

• 6:42:57Speaker 01

  There's like, 67 pages of research that I have, that is just really covering as far as I felt I could go for this. But like, I could have drawn this out for weeks and weeks and weeks.

• 6:43:10Speaker 02

  Easily.

• 6:43:12Speaker 01

  And again, there's like, um, definitely check out the Unobscured Podcast, season three, Aaron Manki's podcast, because he goes into a lot of like, the police stuff and all that. And I think it's like, a really good way to just like, keep it going while getting some more information. So definitely check that out. Um, but here we are. We're gonna talk about a couple of the murders that people have tried to tie to Jack the Ripper. They try to get, a lot of people don't want to live in that canonical five place, space. They just, they really want to take this out. And I think that that is like, I understand, this guy did some gnarly murders. Yes, I believe it's a guy, we are gonna talk about whether it's Jilda Ripper, don't worry about it. I know that's a theory,

• 6:43:56Speaker 01

  we'll talk about it. But I believe personally, that this is a man.

• 6:43:59Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:43:59Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, he's, he's a lot. His murders are grisly, his murders are intense. They were like, boom, boom, boom. And people want to be like, well, he definitely didn't stop there. He didn't just start with, you know, Paulie Nichols. Like, there has to be more outside of this. There has to be more in between. You know, between Mary Jane Kelly and Catherine Eddes, there was that like, period of time where he didn't do anything.

• 6:44:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:44:24Speaker 01

  But I don't think there is anything outside of this. I think maybe, maybe I can buy like, one more, but I really don't. I don't even know if I, Elizabeth Stride, I'm still on the fence about.

• 6:44:37Speaker 02

  Do you have any theories about what you think happened to him, and like, why he stopped?

• 6:44:40Speaker 01

  I think he either, I think he might have either died, like, was killed somehow, because I think he was probably living some kind of pretty dangerous lifestyle there.

• 6:44:51Speaker 02

  Kind of everybody was.

• 6:44:52Speaker 01

  Or he killed himself. He.

• 6:44:55Speaker 02

  It got to like.

• 6:44:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, or he might have moved.

• 6:44:59Speaker 02

  Okay. And done murders elsewhere?

• 6:45:01Speaker 01

  And maybe done murders elsewhere. But I honestly, this is a hard one to figure out exactly where I stand on, because it's still so.

• 6:45:09Speaker 02

  I think in the last episode, I was like, is, I know I'm crazy, everybody, but like, could it be a fucking demon?

• 6:45:15Speaker 01

  Could it be a demon? And honestly, maybe it is. Maybe it's a demon at the end of this.

• 6:45:18Speaker 02

  Imagine.

• 6:45:19Speaker 01

  Um, so there were other murders before, and one after Mary Jane Kelly. And those are the ones that people are, keep trying to shoehorn in here.

• 6:45:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:45:28Speaker 01

  I'm gonna ta, I'm not sold on most of them. I'm really not sold on any of them. But I'll, I'm gonna talk about them here, just so you can get an idea of why people want to connect these, and the, and maybe you'll feel like they are. I don't want to like, tell you what to think. So there's one, and her woman, the woman's name is Alice McKenzie. Uh, this was done July 17th, 1889. So this was after. Uh, this one, to me, seems like someone who is just trying to make it look like a Jack the Ripper. And I think that was the problem here. I think a lot of murders after this, like casual murders, is, which is like, horrible to say, but that seems to be something that happened a lot back then. They did try to like, emulate, almost, I think, to try to.

• 6:46:11Speaker 02

  Throw people off.

• 6:46:12Speaker 01

  Throw people off, and take suspicion away from themselves. Uh, according to the Shelton Mallet Journal City of Wells Reporter, which is a, uh, newspaper, and the County Advisor newspapers from July 1889, on the evening of the murder, Alice McKenzie, who was in her 40s, was found by Police Constable Andrews in Castle Alley, which was in Whitechapel. She was killed and left in a dark doorway. In the article, it said that by her dress, she was, quote, "Assumed to belong to the unfortunate class." And remember, they called this class of people, "the unfortunates."

• 6:46:46Speaker 02

  How nice.

• 6:46:47Speaker 01

  No evidence was left behind, but her throat was deeply cut, and her stomach was lacerated by a sharp knife. The article states, quote, "The intestines were in no way disturbed." Just a large laceration. Also, the throat was cut on the side, not an ear-to-ear job like the Ripper usually does.

• 6:47:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:47:05Speaker 01

  She had been living with a man named John McCormick for six years, and he said he never knew her to go out at night. So he's claiming she was not a sex worker. She never went out at night. That evening, they had had an argument, and she had said she was going down to, I think she was going down with payment to pay for lodging. He was like, he sent her down, and then she never came back up. She like, left. And he said she never did that.

• 6:47:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:47:28Speaker 01

  So that was weird. He saw her next to identify her body.

• 6:47:32Speaker 02

  That's sad.

• 6:47:33Speaker 01

  And it's really sad that a lot of these victims, uh, they ended with their partners on a fight.

• 6:47:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:47:38Speaker 01

  Which is really sad. There wasn't the belief of like, don't leave angry, back then, apparently. It was like.

• 6:47:44Speaker 02

  Well, there was a lot to be angry about.

• 6:47:46Speaker 01

  There was everything, you know, was to be angry about.

• 6:47:48Speaker 02

  And there still is.

• 6:47:49Speaker 01

  Now, of course, that sounds similar. Like, we got the throat laceration, we got the stomach laceration, we got the nothing left behind. But again, not ear-to-ear, nothing was really mutilated, just a laceration. And again, this was after Mary Jane Kelly's murder. So to go from Mary Jane Kelly's full evisceration to this.

• 6:48:12Speaker 01

  Unless Kelly isn't a Ripper victim, which I don't believe she's a victim of anyone else. I think she is a Jack the Ripper victim. I stand strongly on that, that she is the fifth.

• 6:48:22Speaker 02

  It makes sense because there's like such an escalation.

• 6:48:25Speaker 01

  There is a very clear, clear escalate. I mean, he followed it. It was almost like he mapped it out.

• 6:48:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:48:31Speaker 01

  To be honest, it just doesn't feel right. And even.

• 6:48:35Speaker 02

  I just had a thought.

• 6:48:36Speaker 01

  And I saw that face like huh.

• 6:48:38Speaker 02

  I had like my little light bulb went off. This might be a crazy question, but is there, do you think that there's any reason why it's five?

• 6:48:47Speaker 01

  I always wondered that myself, but.

• 6:48:49Speaker 02

  Well, you don't even think it is.

• 6:48:50Speaker 01

  There is. Yeah. Cause I think if Elizabeth, which I am not counting Elizabeth stride out. I just questioned her.

• 6:48:58Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:48:59Speaker 01

  But I do think it's possible that he was fully like trying to go like full evisceration. And then he got stopped.

• 6:49:09Speaker 02

  Like somebody came.

• 6:49:09Speaker 01

  By those people coming into the club. I think he got, he got scared. He ran away and that was the double event. So an hour later, he did what he was intending to do. So I wonder if it was supposed to be four.

• 6:49:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:49:21Speaker 01

  And happened to be five because she just doesn't fit in that pattern of escalation, but I think she was meant to.

• 6:49:28Speaker 02

  So.

• 6:49:28Speaker 01

  If she is a victim.

• 6:49:29Speaker 02

  So then five could mean something.

• 6:49:31Speaker 01

  So five could mean something, or it could have been four. And maybe four means something.

• 6:49:37Speaker 02

  And but you have no idea what it could possibly mean.

• 6:49:39Speaker 01

  But I don't know what that could mean.

• 6:49:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:49:40Speaker 01

  To be honest. Now, even after Catherine Eddo's murder, this is a weird one to commit a year later.

• 6:49:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:49:46Speaker 01

  Cause Catherine Eddo's murder was right before Mary Jane Kelly's and it was very escalated from the other ones. It was like right under. Now, the article also says the police said they received several signed, which is a red flag, letters. So signed by Jack the Ripper, which to me is always a red flag that it is not him.

• 6:50:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:50:05Speaker 01

  That's not him, saying he was going to start up again in July.

• 6:50:10Speaker 01

  So they're thinking like, whoa, this lady was killed in July. He said he was going to start up in July. I'm sure they got letters that were like, I'm going to start in August. I'm going to start tomorrow. I'm going to start next week. One of those was going to hit.

• 6:50:20Speaker 02

  And why would you tell the police when you're going to start? Like, I don't think he would do that because then police presence is going to be higher.

• 6:50:27Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:50:28Speaker 02

  Unless he's going to say like, I'm starting in July, but really starts in June.

• 6:50:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:50:31Speaker 02

  But I don't know. That's weird.

• 6:50:33Speaker 01

  And again, he signed them.

• 6:50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:50:35Speaker 01

  Every time it's signed, I'm out. Like count me out. The more I looked into that letter business, the more I was like, no way.

• 6:50:41Speaker 02

  Elena sees a, sees a signature and turns into SpongeBob on the sofa.

• 6:50:45Speaker 01

  I don't know what that, oh, I'm a head out. I do know that one. Okay. Yep. See, I got it.

• 6:50:49Speaker 02

  John loves that one.

• 6:50:50Speaker 01

  He does love that one. It's an I'm a head out moment for me. After I've, I've looked at like a shit ton of psychological profiles of this guy. I don't think that's his deal.

• 6:51:00Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:51:01Speaker 01

  I really don't.

• 6:51:01Speaker 02

  I trust you.

• 6:51:02Speaker 01

  I think the from hell letter is legit. It feels legit to me and it was not signed.

• 6:51:06Speaker 02

  I mean, it had a kidney.

• 6:51:07Speaker 01

  It had a legit human kidney. So there's that. Now, Dr. Forbes Winslow, who is called an eminent specialist on lunacy cases.

• 6:51:16Speaker 02

  Same.

• 6:51:17Speaker 01

  Interesting. Was quoted in the article saying he believed the Whitechapel murderer was, quote, "apparently an elusive interval since November 9th", which is Mary Jane Kelly's murder. And since that period, he quote, "has become, he has probably been unconscious to what he had been doing previously." And basically now he's awake and ready to start again. So he's saying he went into some kind of weird.

• 6:51:41Speaker 02

  Hibernation.

• 6:51:41Speaker 01

  Hibernation period where his brain just shut off and he was like, ooh, I don't, what have I been doing the last year or so? Like what's been going on? And now all of a sudden he was like click, click. And it was like whirring back on. And he was like, whoop, must murder now. Like. I don't know about that. I don't know about that one. It then goes in this article from 1889 to include Fairy Fay, another victim I am about to speak about. It did in the next paragraph and Alice in his list of eight victims that they lay at Jack's feet. So in that article, this doctor said Fairy Fay, another victim Martha, which I'm going to talk about next. And this Alex McKenzie are added to the five canonical victims.

• 6:52:26Speaker 01

  And he says, all eight of those victims are Jack the Ripper victims. That is it. I don't agree.

• 6:52:32Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:52:32Speaker 01

  At all. Now, because of this murder, the Devon Evening Express reported that police were doing, quote, "special murder beats", because they believed he was absolutely back in action. Like the police were like, he's back. Here we go. I'm more willing to accept Alex, Alice McKenzie, and I'm not even willing to accept her than I am the next one. That seems to be the case that a lot of people want to associate with the Ripper. This next one, Martha Tabram, is in a lot of people's, like, I'm adding her to the canonical five. I would more say Alice is part of the canonical five, and I don't even agree with that.

• 6:53:10Speaker 01

  So that's Alice. I don't think she's part of anything. Seems like it would be real weird for him to go from Catherine Eddo's, Mary Jane Kelly. Like that major.

• 6:53:20Speaker 02

  Climax.

• 6:53:21Speaker 01

  Magnum opus of bullshit, then take a dive into like going back to the beginning.

• 6:53:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:53:27Speaker 01

  And if he was going to do that, then where was the escalation back up? And then another one, I would think if he was going to do that, which would be strange if he was just going to go in waves.

• 6:53:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:53:37Speaker 01

  Then I would expect another escalation past that.

• 6:53:40Speaker 02

  And I'm sorry, where was Alice found?

• 6:53:42Speaker 01

  Alice was found in Whitechapel.

• 6:53:44Speaker 02

  Which you would, and I don't know, I'm just.

• 6:53:46Speaker 01

  But there was a shit ton of murders in Whitechapel.

• 6:53:48Speaker 02

  There's always that. And in my opinion, I would think that if he was going to like deescalate for any reason, he would go elsewhere.

• 6:53:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:53:55Speaker 02

  And start the terror of like, you know, let me start slow and really build up like I did in Whitechapel.

• 6:54:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. That seems likely. And it's like, even though Whitechapel is like an easy place to get victims, kind of, because of the desperation and people are on the streets at all hours of night and you can kind of weasel your way into these people's lives a little more. There were other places, like you said, that he could do this and it would, like you were saying, make a little sense for someone this, you know, twisted. To be like, okay, let's start at a Paulie Nichols level.

• 6:54:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:54:27Speaker 01

  And then ramp ourselves up to a Mary Jane Kelly, go back down, head off somewhere else, do this whole thing again and see how many times I can cause mass pandemonium.

• 6:54:36Speaker 02

  Exactly. And it, cause that's what he loved about this whole thing is the mass pandemonium.

• 6:54:40Speaker 01

  I feel like he really liked that fear that he was spreading. I think he liked that more than anything. To be honest, I think it was like that fear. And yeah, it just, and there was no escalation for this one. No clear escalation of anything. So the next one is the Martha Tabram case. She was also known as Martha Turner or Emma Turner. She had a lot of aliases. She was around 40 years old, was married with two sons. She had worked as a sex worker for a while in Whitechapel. And remember, Alex, Alex, sorry, Alice McKenzie was also in her 40s. So they did fit the.

• 6:55:16Speaker 02

  Victim profile.

• 6:55:17Speaker 01

  Profile for sure. Even though we have Mary Jane Kelly down at 25 years old, she was kind of the outlier there. So Martha Tabram was 40 years old. She was murdered August 7th, 1888. So she was before the Mary Jane Kelly. She was before the Catherine Eddo's of it all. And she was found killed around 3:00 AM on a landing leading to the George Yard buildings. In the same kind of area in Whitechapel. She had been stabbed 39 times. The issue I have with this one is the lack of mutilation. There is no mutil, like no mutilation, Jack the Ripper.

• 6:55:52Speaker 02

  Right. He doesn't stab.

• 6:55:53Speaker 01

  And the fact that evidence suggested that this was either done by a sharp knife or a bayonet. And they were thinking that it was likely more a bayonet.

• 6:56:03Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 6:56:04Speaker 01

  And according to the Times from 1888, quote, "there was one large wound over her heart while several other injuries of the nature of stabs were on her body." "The injuries on the deceased are, it is stated, not unlike bayonet wounds." "A doctor who was called to the scene also said he believed all wounds were done while she was alive." So we're already deviating from Jack's MO.

• 6:56:27Speaker 02

  He wouldn't do that.

• 6:56:28Speaker 01

  He cut the windpipe. Usually they were already dead or dying and he started doing his thing.

• 6:56:33Speaker 02

  And he wasn't really stabbing them. He was more lacing them and ripping.

• 6:56:38Speaker 01

  He was ripping, unfortunately. And there, and he, this doctor also said he believed there could have been multiple weapons used on Martha. Interestingly, she was seen along with another sex worker, friend of hers, with two soldiers earlier in the evening. Bayonets. They were actually both found and arrested, but the other sex worker she had been with wouldn't identify them, so they were released. And who knows if that was out of fear or just like, people really cling to this one because of who she was. And also because of some of the stab wounds were to, you know, sexual organs and genitalia, which obviously is Ripper-esque.

• 6:57:17Speaker 02

  But happens all the time as well.

• 6:57:19Speaker 01

  Dabs too.

• 6:57:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:57:20Speaker 01

  But honestly, people treated sex workers like shit.

• 6:57:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 6:57:24Speaker 01

  As unique as it unfortunately sounds. This was kind of unfortunately the norm there. I don't think she is a Ripper victim. She would be the entire, she would be the first victim of the entire series. And for him to go from using a likely bayonet and stabbing someone 39 times to then go to Paulie Nichols.

• 6:57:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:57:46Speaker 01

  And then immediately start a consistent pattern of slitting the throats to kill and silence them. Would be a real weird, twisty, turny road to take for him.

• 6:57:56Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:57:56Speaker 01

  Because it's not like it was everywhere. If it was everywhere, randomness can be a pattern in and of itself, but that's not what he did.

• 6:58:04Speaker 02

  He wasn't random.

• 6:58:04Speaker 01

  He was very consistent. So like to go from random to consistent, then random again, just doesn't make any sense to me. Now, there's another one that happened after Mary Jane Kelly as well that is placed in as a possible Ripper murder. Her name was Frances Cole. She was 25 years old, so the same as Mary Jane Kelly, which I'm already a little like, I don't know.

• 6:58:25Speaker 02

  Because I really think that Mary Jane Kelly was simply a victim because of the fact that he could do it privately.

• 6:58:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think he just took an opportunity there. So she was working as a sex worker. It was February 13th, 1891. So it was a much after Mary Jane Kelly. And she was found around 2:15 a.m. in a railway underpass called Swallow Gardens. Police Constable Ernest Thompson had apparently been walking his beat. He heard some footsteps. He followed those footstep sounds to find her with a deep cut to her throat. And he thought he saw her eye move a bit. So he thought she could have been alive still. When it was looked into further, she was well known to be on the streets and she was about 17 years old. And in the days leading up to the murder, she had been in a legendary pub

• 6:59:14Speaker 01

  crawl for two days straight with a man named Thomas Sadler. They had been drinking all day and all night for two days.

• 6:59:22Speaker 02

  They were celebrating?

• 6:59:24Speaker 01

  No. According to Jack the Ripper, in the case for Scotland Yard's prime suspect, which I link in the show notes, Sadler was a client and he described their relationship as, quote, "I used her for my purpose."

• 6:59:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 6:59:37Speaker 01

  That's what he was quoted as saying. Yeah.

• 6:59:39Speaker 02

  Fuck right off with that.

• 6:59:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, interesting, during their wild bender, he got, he happened to get robbed and beaten by some random men. Like, these women came up behind him and like, kind of like distracted him. And then these men robbed him and beat the shit out of him. And it was during their bender. So he immediately blamed Frances Cole and said she must have set this up. But she was like, on a space level. Like, she was not with it. She was like, so she was like, I did not set this up. I can't even talk. So they got in a fight and they parted ways the same night she was killed around 11:30 p.m. So they ended things on a bad note. Now, he got in trouble at the docks after this. He was super drunk. He was trying to fight people.

• 7:00:23Speaker 02

  Can't be doing that.

• 7:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he wandered around getting like, without getting lodging, because he didn't have any money. And then he went to the Spitalfields Chambers and found Frances Cole again passed out in the kitchen there. Like, just passed out on a, on a table. And he got kicked out for not having money. And then around 1 a.m., she was also kicked out. And he said he never saw her again, according to police records. Saw her in the kitchen. See you later. We got kicked out. Bye. He lied. He got caught lying a ton.

• 7:00:52Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:00:52Speaker 01

  He had seen Cole after the kitchen, because he then admitted that they had something to eat at Shuttleworth's around 1:30 a.m.

• 7:00:59Speaker 02

  Liar.

• 7:01:00Speaker 01

  So he was lying. So besides lying about that, he also said he went to the hospital that night, because he said he had to be treated after being robbed several times, because he also said he was robbed at the docks. But he never went to the hospital. He wasn't treated at the hospital. He was found by a police constable, passed out around 2 a.m. near the Royal Mint and was arrested.

• 7:01:22Speaker 02

  Why are you always lying?

• 7:01:24Speaker 01

  Why are you lying? When he said, when he was arrested, he said, "I expected this."

• 7:01:31Speaker 01

  What now?

• 7:01:32Speaker 02

  That's my reaction.

• 7:01:33Speaker 01

  Weirdly, only a few hundred yards from where he was, was the place where Cole would be found murdered at 2:15, 15 minutes later.

• 7:01:44Speaker 02

  So what you're saying is, he was responsible.

• 7:01:48Speaker 01

  Likely.

• 7:01:48Speaker 02

  Also, like, he had a motive. He thought she was involved in the robbery.

• 7:01:52Speaker 01

  Exactly. Revenge. He was pissed. Now, given all of these, like, we, so that one, I believe, was, was pretty clear.

• 7:02:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely.

• 7:02:02Speaker 01

  Like, to me, John Sadler is the guy. He's at least a great suspect. I don't think that, that Cole was part of the canonical five. I don't believe that Martha Tabram was part of the canonical five. I think those two soldiers are suspect. I think there was probably other things with that. And then Alice, I don't, I also don't really think was it.

• 7:02:23Speaker 02

  Nobody that you have said so far in this episode.

• 7:02:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's sad, too, because then, I mean, at least for the last one, where like, he definitely did it. But then it's like, who killed them? Like, why was justice not served there? This happens so much. Justice wasn't.

• 7:02:37Speaker 02

  I mean, even in Jack the Ripper, it wasn't.

• 7:02:39Speaker 01

  And people wouldn't even look, most of the time, right? It was one of those, like, well, what's happens? I mean, think about it. In the middle of the night during the Mary Jane Kelly murders, two people heard, "Oh, murder," yelled by a woman in the middle of the night. And they were like, happens all the time. And they said they listened for a second. They didn't hear another one. So they were like, well, all right, good night.

• 7:03:00Speaker 02

  You didn't hear another one because her throat had been cut.

• 7:03:03Speaker 01

  Like, my goodness. Now, I'm going to go over some suspects. I don't find all of these compelling, but I find them at least interesting.

• 7:03:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:03:13Speaker 01

  I'm not, I'm sure that I'm not going to get everyone's favorite suspect on here. There has been over 200 suspects that have been like, put forth over the years. There's like, a pretty big chunk that are like, the one that a lot of people go to. I kind of narrowed that down even further, because I didn't want to keep you here for like, 18 hours.

• 7:03:32Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 7:03:32Speaker 01

  I'm sure this won't be the last time I touch upon Jack the Ripper on this podcast. No, I know it's not going to be the last time I touch upon Jack the Ripper on this podcast. Like, we, we will talk about this again at some point in some other way. So don't worry.

• 7:03:47Speaker 02

  Probably other cases that will relate.

• 7:03:49Speaker 01

  If you didn't hear your favorite one here, you're probably going to hear it at some other point.

• 7:03:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:03:54Speaker 01

  But these are just mine. So this is just how I feel. So we're going to start with the McNaughton Papers before we get into the suspects. The McNaughton Papers were the name for what is actually more like one cheat. It's like, really not papers.

• 7:04:10Speaker 02

  It is one paper.

• 7:04:11Speaker 01

  There is, so Sir Melville McNaughton became Assistant Chief Constable of Scotland Yard in 1889. So right after the murders.

• 7:04:18Speaker 02

  Because, uh, what's his face left?

• 7:04:20Speaker 01

  Because all that shenanigans. Now, in complete Jack the Ripper by Donald Rumbolo, which I really loved that book. So I really think you should go get that book. I just thought it was great. He reproduced a copy of his, of these notes for the first time in that book. In these, he points to three suspects. I'll go over them in one second. But he also only attributed the canonical five victims to Jack the Ripper. So he also believed only those five. He said Elizabeth Stride was indeed a victim of the Ripper, but was interrupted when people arrived at the club that night. And I really think I agree with him. He also pointed out that his brutality increased each time, like, very clearly, in that the last one was so brutal, that he was likely driven insane

• 7:05:05Speaker 01

  and killed himself, or was committed. That's what he believes.

• 7:05:08Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 7:05:08Speaker 01

  Because he said that was so brutal and over the top, no one was walking out of there and just living their lives after that.

• 7:05:15Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:05:15Speaker 01

  I don't know if I believe that one. I see it. I understand it.

• 7:05:19Speaker 02

  But people do horrible things all the time and murder other people. And because they can, because they're not you and me, who would be affected by that?

• 7:05:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I think this was more him looking at him being like, that was so gnarly, that he had to have been committed after that. He had to have been. People also thought driven insane was like, a very casual and very like, well, he must have been driven mad. And it's like, not everybody's just driven mad by things, like.

• 7:05:46Speaker 02

  You don't think he was already mad to begin with, brother?

• 7:05:48Speaker 01

  That's the thing. I don't think he was out of control, ever. And I don't think he was out of control after, to be quite honest. I think he just reached his pinnacle and that was it. They said, you know, what he said was, he never would have resumed only to de-escalate, which is exactly what we were saying.

• 7:06:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:06:08Speaker 01

  It just doesn't make sense. Now, his suspects are three men in the McNaughton Papers, but I'm going to talk about two right now. And the last one, I'm going to end on. So you'll hear about later.

• 7:06:18Speaker 02

  Do you have a particular suspect that you think is Jack the Ripper?

• 7:06:22Speaker 01

  I don't have anyone in here that I can say for certain is Jack the Ripper.

• 7:06:27Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:06:28Speaker 01

  I'm still very like, oh, I don't know. And I feel like I almost need to do more reading and more craziness. I feel like I need to go over to London and figure this out.

• 7:06:38Speaker 02

  Help. I'm blinking thrice.

• 7:06:41Speaker 01

  Because now I need, I need, in fact, when I do come up with my suspect, it's going to be on some future episode that has absolutely nothing to do with Jack the Ripper. I'm going to tell you in the beginning of the episode who I think it is. When I know it, I will shout it from the rooftops.

• 7:06:56Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:06:57Speaker 01

  And it will have nothing to do with the episode. I'll just say, by the way, I figured it out.

• 7:07:01Speaker 02

  In like, two years, Lena's going to be like, I figured it out. Sorry, I think I broke your.

• 7:07:07Speaker 01

  I was going to say, now that Ash has busted your eardrums, the first one that he names is somebody that he refers to as M.J. Drewett. What we now know is Montague John Drewett.

• 7:07:20Speaker 02

  Montague.

• 7:07:20Speaker 01

  He came from a line of medical men. He himself was a successful barrister, so he studied law. He would have been about 41 years, years old at the time of the murders. He had a dark mustache. He had dark hair. He came from a prosperous family, so he dressed well. He was described as a sportsman who had strength in his upper body and arms. He was also unable to be located around the time of Mary Jane Kelly's murders. And he killed himself in December 1888.

• 7:07:48Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:07:49Speaker 01

  Very shortly after. He did this by throwing himself into the Thames River with pockets full of rocks.

• 7:07:56Speaker 02

  Oh, damn. That's one way to go.

• 7:07:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, McNaughton really thought this was the guy, but like,

• 7:08:03Speaker 01

  I don't. I don't see this one at all.

• 7:08:06Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:08:06Speaker 01

  He was pretty thin. When you look at him, he's like a thin, lean guy. And most witnesses described whoever they saw with the last victims, they described him always, across the board, as medium build at least. There was never a thin man among them.

• 7:08:22Speaker 02

  Also, uh, he was a lawyer.

• 7:08:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And yeah, it doesn't really, I mean, he came from a line of medical men.

• 7:08:29Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 7:08:30Speaker 01

  So he had that in his blood. He was probably around it. I'm sure he could have learned a thing or two.

• 7:08:34Speaker 02

  I mean, I like come from you essentially. And like, I'm not an autopsy technician.

• 7:08:38Speaker 01

  That's true. But back then it was like a little different because it's like you would go into the trade really young. And if you didn't stay in it, maybe he went to law after that.

• 7:08:46Speaker 02

  All right.

• 7:08:46Speaker 01

  So no one really, again, like, there just isn't anything I could find about him being connected to Whitechapel in a way that is significant or a way that would make him angry at these women or something even close to that. Like, there's just no significance with Whitechapel here or connection to it.

• 7:09:04Speaker 02

  It's simply just that, like, he couldn't be accounted for and then he killed himself.

• 7:09:07Speaker 01

  He just like couldn't be accounted for. He had a lot of, there was mental illness in his family, which I think a lot of people want to like, I don't know what it is about this case. Maybe it's because the police initially like always demonized people with mental illness. So they were like really intense about like, let's check the asylums. This has to be an escaped inmate from an asylum. And it's like, what about this?

• 7:09:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:09:30Speaker 01

  Very calculated series of murders says to you, like, somebody who is unhinged to the point of like, not planning any of this.

• 7:09:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:09:38Speaker 01

  This seems planned out to me personally. So to me, it's like, he was, he just doesn't fit it for me.

• 7:09:44Speaker 02

  It absolutely is planned out too. When you think about the dates even.

• 7:09:48Speaker 01

  Exactly. He even planned that last one to be coincided with Lord Mayor's Day.

• 7:09:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:09:53Speaker 01

  So that all the police officers are going to be on one side of town and he's going and doing it over here.

• 7:09:57Speaker 02

  Planned for sure.

• 7:09:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Now, and he even skipped a couple of weeks, a few weeks in there and skipped his regular pattern of dates to me, in my opinion, to wait for that next one, which was going to work perfectly for him.

• 7:10:09Speaker 02

  I agree with that for sure.

• 7:10:10Speaker 01

  That's what makes sense to me.

• 7:10:11Speaker 02

  I don't think it was like, oh, we just like randomly deviated from this set path. I think you're exactly right.

• 7:10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you waited for it.

• 7:10:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:10:18Speaker 01

  Now, the next one is Michael Ostrog. He was a Russian doctor.

• 7:10:22Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 7:10:23Speaker 01

  Uh, he was also a convict. And in the, um, in the McNaughton papers, this is like, quote, um, who was subsequently detained in a lunatic asylum as a homicidal maniac. This man's antecedents were of the worst possible type and his whereabouts at the time of the murders could never be ascertained. I'm going to have to disagree with McNaughton for even entertaining this one.

• 7:10:46Speaker 02

  Why is that?

• 7:10:47Speaker 01

  He was not violent. He was at least not recorded to be violent at any moment in his life.

• 7:10:52Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 7:10:52Speaker 01

  He was just a thief.

• 7:10:54Speaker 02

  Why did they think he was a homicidal maniac?

• 7:10:56Speaker 01

  McNaughton got a few details wrong.

• 7:10:58Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:10:59Speaker 01

  And there's a few times where you're like, no, that's not true at all.

• 7:11:03Speaker 02

  Woof.

• 7:11:04Speaker 01

  But like, all right. It's like, but then you look back at these records, a lot of these police officers got a lot of details wrong a lot of the time.

• 7:11:11Speaker 02

  Sure. It was a lot of like, I want to be the one to solve this.

• 7:11:14Speaker 01

  Of course. And it was your own confirmation bias kind of situation going on. But I know this one doesn't, he's a thief. He's definitely a thief, but that's it.

• 7:11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thief's, uh, not necessarily the same person that like killed Mary Jane Oates.

• 7:11:29Speaker 01

  No. And this was the same kind of thing where the police wanted to believe so badly that this was someone from an asylum and that it was just someone who was mentally unstable. And they escaped and decided to perpetrate the most cunning, quick and diabolical series of mutilation murders ever recorded.

• 7:11:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:11:45Speaker 01

  Seems not legit at all.

• 7:11:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:11:47Speaker 01

  This one just, you can't really place him there. There's just nothing. You, you can look at him and be like, he was a doctor. He's Russian. He, I guess he did some bad stuff, but like, not really. Like, it just doesn't really fit at all.

• 7:12:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, not at all.

• 7:12:03Speaker 01

  Now, the next one who is not in the McNaughton papers, but this is the next suspect that I see on a lot of lists. Joseph Barnett.

• 7:12:10Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:12:10Speaker 01

  Sounds familiar.

• 7:12:11Speaker 02

  I was going to say that does.

• 7:12:12Speaker 01

  We remember Joseph as Mary Jane Kelly's guy for a while.

• 7:12:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. It seems while I was, when I was reading, it seems like he really loved her. When, and I think we were both saying that, that he really loved her. They just weren't right for each other. It just wasn't working.

• 7:12:30Speaker 02

  And he wasn't the one that was like crazy abusive, right?

• 7:12:32Speaker 01

  No, he was the one that, he was Mary Jane Kelly's. He was the last one that she dated. He was the one that didn't want her to be a sex worker. He wanted to provide for her.

• 7:12:42Speaker 02

  He was the one that we were loving on last episode.

• 7:12:44Speaker 01

  We were loving on him because we were like, he, he at least is attempting to be a solid stand-up guy for one of these women. Like, he's at least attempting. Now, this is me basing it off their lives and the limited amount we can gather from records and witness statements. But I could not find anything that said that he was a bad guy or that he was abusive or that they were anything other than like a couple that actually did care for each other. But it just was tough. Um, he was, like I said, he was not happy with her being a sex worker. And in fact, he was obsessed with the idea of being able to provide financially for her, to make her stop. He did not want her on the street.

• 7:13:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:13:22Speaker 01

  It always feels like he had good intentions to me. Like, that was, he really just didn't want her doing that.

• 7:13:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause I mean, that's a very dangerous job for somebody that you love, especially back then.

• 7:13:32Speaker 01

  Exactly. And the theory goes that maybe this love was what led him to murder.

• 7:13:38Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 7:13:39Speaker 01

  So Bruce Pally, who wrote Jack the Ripper, The Simple Truth, said he believed maybe Barnett was so obsessed with the idea of getting Mary Jane Kelly off the streets that he began murdering other sex workers to scare the shit out of her and keep her off the streets.

• 7:13:54Speaker 02

  That would be a wild length to go to.

• 7:13:57Speaker 01

  Well, and then when their final fight led to their separation and he found out she, she was still on the street.

• 7:14:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:14:03Speaker 01

  He killed her in a jealous rage.

• 7:14:05Speaker 02

  I feel like they just want to say that he was like, somebody was in a rage because of the way that she was murdered.

• 7:14:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, he does resemble the Jack the Ripper that witness statements describe. Medium build, dark hair, dark mustache, fair complexion, but like, that described about a zillion other men in the area at the time. So like, any of these guys, they probably all had mustaches. It's really not. There's also the strange thing where the door was locked when they found Mary Jane Kelly, but they had lost the key and had started using the broken window that they broke when they fought to, to lock it when they would leave. So who know, who knew how to do that?

• 7:14:42Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:14:42Speaker 01

  Barnett.

• 7:14:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:14:44Speaker 01

  That's an interesting little tidbit. Somebody could have ascertained that maybe.

• 7:14:49Speaker 02

  She could have even said that walking in there.

• 7:14:51Speaker 01

  She could have. And it's like, but still, that is a weird little thing.

• 7:14:56Speaker 02

  Well, actually, now that I think about it, like, she would have reached in the window to open the door to let whoever in.

• 7:15:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:15:02Speaker 02

  So maybe they saw that.

• 7:15:03Speaker 01

  So maybe they saw that. And that's, that's the thing that we kind of laid on last time when we mentioned this was like, oh, that person could have just seen her do it.

• 7:15:11Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:15:11Speaker 01

  And again, they could have just ascertained it from like.

• 7:15:14Speaker 02

  Seeing the broken window.

• 7:15:15Speaker 01

  Context clues like.

• 7:15:17Speaker 02

  She could have, even if they hadn't seen her do that, she could have mentioned it, you know?

• 7:15:21Speaker 01

  There's a lot that could have.

• 7:15:22Speaker 02

  They could have said, why is that window broken? And she could have been like, well, la la la, but it worked out because this is how we do this.

• 7:15:27Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's the thing. So when you, and this is what we find in a lot of these cases with Jack the Ripper and like the suspects and theories, you go down a path and you're like, whoa.

• 7:15:38Speaker 02

  But then you fight against it.

• 7:15:40Speaker 01

  And then you're like.

• 7:15:40Speaker 02

  But this could have happened.

• 7:15:42Speaker 01

  All of these things kind of take that away. So it's like, it's easy to put it in with other things and be like, oh my goodness, what a great suspect. But then you're like.

• 7:15:48Speaker 02

  Smoking gun.

• 7:15:49Speaker 01

  But then all of these other things that don't make any sense.

• 7:15:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:15:52Speaker 01

  Now, it seems, so it's important to note that, um, so the other thing that I want to mention, and of course I'm doing this in episode five, I was referring to Inspector Aberlin. A lot of people said it's Inspector Aberline.

• 7:16:06Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:16:07Speaker 01

  Uh, you are probably correct, but here's the reason that I said Aberlin. I just want to put it out there. I had a criminal justice professor that referred to him as Inspector Aberlin.

• 7:16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:16:18Speaker 01

  For like the entire year that we talked about Jack the Ripper.

• 7:16:21Speaker 02

  So that's what you were talking about.

• 7:16:22Speaker 01

  It is so burned in my memory as Aberlin because I heard it like a thousand zillion times. So if I said it wrong, I apologize. That's just like, my brain says it that way.

• 7:16:31Speaker 02

  Who even knows, brother?

• 7:16:33Speaker 01

  But I think I'm, that's just like what I always heard it as, but you know, whatever.

• 7:16:36Speaker 02

  I mean, it was 1888, so like, no one can actually confirm.

• 7:16:40Speaker 01

  So no one was there. So, you know, but if it is Aberline, that's just me. Like, that's what I heard forever. So it's important to note that Aberline cleared him after a four hour interview with him.

• 7:16:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:16:53Speaker 01

  And I respect Inspector Aberline, Aberlin, Aberline, and I respect him. Inspector A. I, good call.

• 7:17:01Speaker 02

  Caught you.

• 7:17:01Speaker 01

  I, I respect him. I think that he did good work in this case. And I think if he cleared him after a four hour interview, I feel. Safe to say that he is probably not the guy.

• 7:17:14Speaker 02

  Agreed. Four hours is a long time.

• 7:17:16Speaker 01

  Not for sure, but I feel pretty good about it at least. So let's move on to James Kelly.

• 7:17:21Speaker 02

  Let us.

• 7:17:21Speaker 01

  James Kelly is not related to Mary Jane Kelly, just putting that out there. He actually murdered his own wife, Sarah Bryder, in 1883, so before these.

• 7:17:31Speaker 02

  In what manner?

• 7:17:32Speaker 01

  By stabbing her in the neck.

• 7:17:34Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:17:35Speaker 01

  He was convicted, but they believed he was insane. So he was sentenced to Broadmoor asylum, where he stayed up until 1888.

• 7:17:44Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:17:45Speaker 01

  And in 1888, he escaped.

• 7:17:47Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:17:49Speaker 01

  Now, that would line up really well with those police assertions that this is an escaped asylum inmate.

• 7:17:55Speaker 02

  It would?

• 7:17:55Speaker 01

  Now, in 1927, so he lived until 1927, or passed in 1927, and he actually turned, he waited from 1888 to 1927, nothing. And then he turned himself in in 1927 into Broadmoor, saying like, I escaped. Like, he turned himself in for escaping, like, however many years prior.

• 7:18:16Speaker 02

  Thirty years prior.

• 7:18:17Speaker 01

  And then he was dead by 1929, so only a couple of years later.

• 7:18:21Speaker 02

  Huh.

• 7:18:21Speaker 01

  Interestingly, this is just like an interesting tidbit. He grew up thinking his grandmother was his mother, à la Bundy.

• 7:18:28Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:18:29Speaker 01

  But he found out later, she was not, and his sister was his mother, that whole thing.

• 7:18:33Speaker 02

  Same thing.

• 7:18:34Speaker 01

  He was a furniture upholsterer, which required skilled use of a sharp knife.

• 7:18:38Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:18:39Speaker 01

  He was slowly kind of losing his grip on reality after he found out all this stuff with his family. He had a hatred of women and really didn't like the idea of women having any kind of power or any kind of like authority.

• 7:18:51Speaker 02

  What a dick.

• 7:18:52Speaker 01

  When he married Sarah, he was increasingly violent with her. And when he contracted a venereal disease, he blamed her and basically said, you must be a sex worker, because you must have fucked some other man and given me this illness.

• 7:19:04Speaker 02

  So a disdain for sex workers.

• 7:19:06Speaker 01

  So he would lash out on her a ton and then immediately apologize after becoming very violent. He would suddenly turn into like, oh shit.

• 7:19:13Speaker 02

  Classic abuser.

• 7:19:14Speaker 01

  But one of these times, he attacked her when she wouldn't immediately just forgive him after the lash out. And he also threw, during this whole thing, he threw her mother across the room.

• 7:19:23Speaker 02

  Jesus.

• 7:19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, when she tried to intervene. And when he turned himself in in 1929, he said he had, quote, "been on the warpath since I left Broadmoor." And he left Broadmoor in 1888.

• 7:19:37Speaker 02

  Medical knowledge?

• 7:19:38Speaker 01

  Not that I could find. He was a furniture upholsterer.

• 7:19:42Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 7:19:43Speaker 01

  I stay, I'm, there's a lot of researchers who will say they don't believe that the Ripper had any medical knowledge. I'm not on that side.

• 7:19:52Speaker 02

  Neither am I.

• 7:19:53Speaker 01

  And I respect that side. You can have that feeling, and I'm sure you have shit to back it up.

• 7:19:58Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah.

• 7:19:58Speaker 01

  This is just where I sit, is I believe he had medical knowledge, and that's just me.

• 7:20:03Speaker 02

  I just would think, and based off of your actual medical knowledge and like, just the breakdowns of everything, especially like the very detailed breakdown, either last episode or the one before.

• 7:20:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was a rough one.

• 7:20:12Speaker 02

  I just feel like he had to have.

• 7:20:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, that I feel like he had to.

• 7:20:16Speaker 02

  So cleanly.

• 7:20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, and just quickly, quickly, cleanly. There was, I feel like there was like, purpose to all of it. I don't feel like it was willy-nilly.

• 7:20:27Speaker 02

  And that's one of the other biggest things, like you just said, quickly.

• 7:20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:20:30Speaker 02

  Quickly.

• 7:20:31Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, that's exactly it.

• 7:20:32Speaker 02

  Quickly and properly.

• 7:20:33Speaker 01

  I think this guy was a shithead. I think he's a murderer. I think he is a misogynistic piece of shit and an abuser, but I don't think he's Jack the Ripper.

• 7:20:45Speaker 02

  I don't either.

• 7:20:46Speaker 01

  I just don't.

• 7:20:47Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 7:20:47Speaker 01

  I don't see it. I think that was like him being a piece of shit. I don't think it was him being Jack the Ripper. Now, the next one is George Chapman.

• 7:20:55Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:20:55Speaker 01

  Who is actually, that was the name he gave himself. His real name is Severin Antoniavich Klausowski.

• 7:21:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:21:03Speaker 01

  But then he was like, my name is George now.

• 7:21:04Speaker 02

  He was like, it is a little bit long, so I'm thinking George.

• 7:21:08Speaker 01

  Why not? George. Now, he was a doctor in Poland and then moved, there it is. And then he moved to the East End in London in 1887 or 1888. And he was employed as a hairdresser's assistant at a barber slash surgeon's shop. Because remember, back then, barbers and surgeons were one and the same.

• 7:21:29Speaker 02

  Wild.

• 7:21:30Speaker 01

  And he was in Whitechapel.

• 7:21:31Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 7:21:32Speaker 01

  Now, he was also a serial poisoner. He had murdered three mistresses in his life. Mary Isabella Spink, he did that in 1897. His second, he then, it was Bessie Taylor in 1901, and then Maude Marsh in 1902.

• 7:21:47Speaker 02

  Love the name Maude.

• 7:21:48Speaker 01

  So obviously, those are after all the Ripper murders, but he was known to be violent towards women. He was a known wife abuser. In 1891, he had moved to, and this was again after the Ripper murders, but it's just showcasing who he is. He had moved to New Jersey after the Ripper murders.

• 7:22:03Speaker 02

  Random.

• 7:22:04Speaker 01

  So across the pond, with his then-wife Lucy. He had only married her because she got pregnant. She was pregnant, and people at the shop he opened in New Jersey testified that they witnessed him abuse her regularly. In fact, one day, it was so bad that he had pinned her down to a bed while pregnant in the back of the barber shop, and he only stopped when a customer walked in and interrupted them. And later, she said, what were you gonna do if that, like, like that person walked in? Like, are you kidding me? And he told her, the only reason that you are safe and that nothing happened to you, he's like, is because that person walked in. And he said, if they didn't walk in, I was gonna cut your head off.

• 7:22:45Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:22:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. He then told her, because she said, well, what would the neighbors say if I wasn't here anymore? And he was like, I would just tell them that you moved back home. Like, he immediately was like, what? That's not hard.

• 7:22:58Speaker 02

  He's like, I figured this out.

• 7:23:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah. So she moved back to London after that.

• 7:23:04Speaker 02

  Blame her.

• 7:23:05Speaker 01

  And he was eventually hanged for the murders of those three women.

• 7:23:09Speaker 02

  But interesting that he poisoned them, like.

• 7:23:12Speaker 01

  That's why I don't believe he's the guy.

• 7:23:14Speaker 02

  Because why would you go from poisoning to slitting people's throats and cutting them open and stealing their kidneys?

• 7:23:19Speaker 01

  Well, and it would have gone the other way around. You would have gone first to that, and then you would have ended on poisoning.

• 7:23:24Speaker 02

  No way. Especially after Mary Jane Kelly, then you just start poisoning people.

• 7:23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no.

• 7:23:28Speaker 02

  I don't think so.

• 7:23:29Speaker 01

  For me. It's, that's too much of a slow burn for him. He's a quick guy. He wants results, Jack.

• 7:23:34Speaker 02

  I think he got, do you think he got a sexual thrill out of murdering? I think he got a thrill.

• 7:23:41Speaker 01

  I, that, I don't think he was there for.

• 7:23:45Speaker 02

  For the thrill?

• 7:23:46Speaker 01

  I don't think he, I think he was there for the thrill, but I don't think he was necessarily like, getting off while this was happening. You know what I mean? That's like crude as that is.

• 7:23:57Speaker 02

  Sexually, but I think he was like.

• 7:23:59Speaker 01

  Like, I couldn't see, I don't think he raped those women.

• 7:24:02Speaker 02

  Well, and like they said, like, they didn't really find any evidence. I mean, how would you?

• 7:24:05Speaker 01

  I just don't feel like he raped that woman. The components of these crimes are more anger.

• 7:24:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:24:12Speaker 01

  And like sexually sadistic, if anything. I don't think, like, maybe later? Maybe that's why he took those things back wherever he went. Maybe that's what he got off on, was the like, trophies he took.

• 7:24:24Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:24:24Speaker 01

  I don't think he did it at the scene.

• 7:24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:24:26Speaker 01

  I really don't, because I don't think, one, I don't think he had time, and two, I think he, and this is me, again, totally basing it off of my own research. I think he was like, methodical. That's the thing. And I think he was methodical and was singular focused when he was doing the murders. Get it done, get what I came here to do, leave. And then afterwards, he could take a moment and probably think about it. And that's when he got the thrills of sending the letter with the kidney.

• 7:24:55Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:24:56Speaker 01

  Maybe looking out a window and seeing people scared, maybe walking down the street, brushing by people and hearing them get nervous about it.

• 7:25:04Speaker 02

  But that's going to be a totally separate thrill, I hate to put it that way.

• 7:25:07Speaker 01

  No, it's true.

• 7:25:08Speaker 02

  Than poisoning.

• 7:25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the thing. And it's like.

• 7:25:11Speaker 02

  And it's so, I mean, so far removed.

• 7:25:13Speaker 01

  It's very.

• 7:25:14Speaker 02

  Versus, yeah, very hands-on.

• 7:25:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. Those are two totally separate methods and two totally separate pathologies, in my opinion.

• 7:25:23Speaker 02

  And two totally separate modus operandi.

• 7:25:26Speaker 01

  Exactly. There you go, methodologies.

• 7:25:28Speaker 02

  Boom.

• 7:25:29Speaker 01

  That's, so I, you know what? He's a, he's a shithead. Like, George Chapman is actually a shithead.

• 7:25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, all of these men are so far.

• 7:25:37Speaker 01

  But like, I don't think he's Jack the Ripper.

• 7:25:40Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 7:25:40Speaker 01

  Now, the next one we have is an interesting one. I saw a couple of people ask about it. Jill the Ripper.

• 7:25:46Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:25:47Speaker 01

  If Jack the Ripper was actually a woman.

• 7:25:50Speaker 02

  Not a chance.

• 7:25:50Speaker 01

  Of course, this idea needs to be entertained, because women can do fucking foul things. We've all seen it.

• 7:25:56Speaker 02

  Seen it.

• 7:25:57Speaker 01

  I mean, look at Catherine Knight, look at tons of other women like this. That's just the first one that came to mind.

• 7:26:04Speaker 02

  Ooh, somebody I'm working on right now.

• 7:26:05Speaker 01

  There's plenty of women that have done terrible fucking thing. I mean, yeah. So, we gotta look at Jill the Ripper, also referred to as the mad midwife, because this always goes back to midwifery, which immediately makes me go, eh, nope. None of these women were confirmed to be pregnant. Why would they be seeing a midwife?

• 7:26:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:26:24Speaker 01

  It's just like, that's not.

• 7:26:25Speaker 02

  Well, most of them were in their 40s as well, which is like, back then, I don't really think many women in their 40s were having children.

• 7:26:30Speaker 01

  No. And it's just, it's just, it's just no. It's a no for me. But I'll go into it, because why not? So Caroline Maxwell was a witness in the Mary Jane Kelly case, but she was kind of disregarded, because she claimed to see Mary Jane Kelly when she was likely already dead. And she held real firm to her witness statement, like, I know, I saw her, I talked to her. She was adamant that she saw her speaking to a man at 8:00 AM, November 9th. And not to know, she even said she had a conversation with her. According to Jack the Ripper Scotland Yard investigates, this was the conversation she claimed occurred. She said, what brings you up so early to Mary Jane Kelly? And Kelly said, I have the horrors of drink upon me as I have been drinking for some days past.

• 7:27:16Speaker 01

  And then Maxwell said, why don't you go to Mrs. Ringer's and have a, have a half pint of beer? And Kelly said, I have been there and had it, but I've brought it all up again. Then she pointed to some vomit on the street in front of her. Oh. So she's like, yeah, I did that. And then I puked right here. Yeah. So she then said she left to run some errands and then she saw Kelly again at nine AM in front of the Britannia Pub, speaking to a man in his 30s who was medium height and built. So the Jill the Ripper theory ties to say that possibly this woman who murdered Mary Jane Kelly was wearing her clothing. And this is who Maxwell saw that morning because she described her clothing and it was very much like Mary Jane Kelly. That would be wild because they spoke face to face.

• 7:27:59Speaker 01

  Did she also look exactly like Mary Jane Kelly? And here's the part of the theory is that this Caroline Maxwell said she knew Mary Jane Kelly, but only for like three months. Who knows how often she saw her? Shit is dark back then. Who knows if she's only seen her at night and she's like, hey, girl, like, what's up? I wonder if this happened another day. Yeah. And she just fucked days up. Thank you. That's what a lot of people think. Yeah. She really held fast to this, but everybody was like, okay, Caroline, like everybody was just kind of like, I don't think you got that right. Right. They also think maybe she was just talking to another woman. Yeah. Just not necessarily a woman who murdered Mary Jane Kelly. This could have just been, she didn't say like, hey, Mary Jane. Right.

• 7:28:43Speaker 01

  What's going on? Like she was just like, hey. Right. What, what brings you out so early? And she's like, I've been drinking all night and she was like vomit, you know? Yeah. She also could have said, hey, Mary Jane and got a fucking answer. It's a common ass name. I was gonna say someone would have turned around. Right. So it's like, this makes a lot of sense that like, sure, maybe she saw that. Maybe she talked to that lady. I don't think that was Mary Jane Kelly. So this goes with the theory that Ripper, the Ripper was a midwife. After all, a midwife would have anatomical knowledge and access to the trust of many women. That is true. It would not be weird if a midwife walked around covered in blood. Gross.

• 7:29:21Speaker 01

  And I read that at the time, midwives used to use this pressure point thing to put women out in labor to decrease the pain. So they would do, so like they would literally like knock them out just by pressing on their neck somewhere. Yeah. So what if this bitch is walking around using this quick pressure point method to knock women out before they even scream? And then uses her knowledge and tools to get to work. All right. Quick, quick, quick. Maybe. And no one's going to think it. But it doesn't really make sense to be honest. There were always rumors that Mary Jane Kelly was pregnant, but I think that was because she was 25 years old and they were like, I bet she was pregnant. Like there was really no reason for this. Yeah. It's just rumor. There was absolutely no proof of that. Right.

• 7:30:03Speaker 01

  Of course, it would be very difficult to ascertain from her remains. But her uterus was there. Nobody could say she was pregnant and nobody, no witness said she was pregnant. Nobody who knew her said she was pregnant. It just became this thing. The other thing is if somebody comes up behind you and puts their finger behind your ear at that pressure point, you're going to turn around and like slap them. Of course, you're gonna be like, what the fuck? Right. And it takes a minute too. Exactly. Now, also, none of the other victims were said to be pregnant. No. A lot of them had their uterus still. So it's like, you would be able to tell. So why would a midwife really be like all up in their business? Of course, midwives did a ton of shit back then. But like, I think the main theory of this one is like pregnancy midway. You know what I mean? Like they really hammer on that part of it.

• 7:30:48Speaker 01

  And it's like, uh, and no one around these women said they were even seeing a midwife ever. Like there was just no. I also feel like a mid, a midwife would have used a different cut. Yeah. Like they wouldn't do that Y shaped incision. Exactly. Maybe like how they delivered a, well, I don't know. Was there Caesarians back then? I honestly don't know. Maybe we should look it up. Yeah, we should. Yeah, let's look it up now. All right, cool. Cause I would think they would use that cut if they were going to. I would assume there was Caesarians, but you're right. I don't know how exactly it was done. Let's look. Go off on your knowledge. So we looked it up and the first ever, ever successful Caesarian in the British Empire was conducted by a woman. Huh. And it was done sometime between 1815 and 1821.

• 7:31:33Speaker 01

  Also, there's like, it says C-sections can date back to like ancient Roman times, like before Caesar. Right. And also that when you look up any of the like old anatomical models and figures of Caesarian sections, it is a vertical cut. Which is, that actually ended up giving credence to that. Which I knew a vertical cut could, was done not that long ago. So it actually does kind of make sense. Oh, I didn't realize. Yeah, that was like a newer thing that it's like hip to hip. Yeah. It was like, that's gnarly. Thought of C-sections. Anybody that's had one, you're a badass motherfucker. Thank you. You're welcome. She's had two. I have had two, but it was not vertical. I can tell you that much. But that kind of does give a little bit like, hmm, at least a little bit. Just something to make you scratch your little noggin.

• 7:32:18Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm, I'm not convinced, but here I am. But interested, interesting. Now, another interesting thing about the Jill the Ripper thing was that a woman was actually thought later to be like, hmm, maybe this person could have been that bad guy. It was Mary Piercy. Now you may recognize that ash and you may recognize that if you came to our Gilded Gore virtual show that we did at the Black Veil. Was it Mary Piercy? Mary Piercy. I covered her for that show and she actually, she's named as a possible Jill the Ripper. It's, it's kind of a stretch for me, but I get it. I get where it comes from. Her story in a nutshell is that she killed the wife, whose name was Phoebe Hogg of the guy she was having an affair with.

• 7:33:04Speaker 01

  She did it brutally and I understand that people would see that and think she was capable of the Ripper murders because honestly, she probably was capable of it. She killed the baby too. Oh yeah. She killed an 18 month old baby. Yeah. She had crushed Phoebe's skull and had slit her throat so deeply that she'd almost decapitated her and did sever the vertebrae. So Phoebe's, um, so she had also had a, Phoebe had deep lacerations on her hands and torso. The paper actually referred to the wounds as having been done in quote, excess of hellish rage. But she then moved her victims and dumped them elsewhere. Cause she did it in a house, moved them out of the house. Ripper did it in the scene, left the victims there. Yeah.

• 7:33:46Speaker 01

  Doesn't really fit for me. She also did that very personal murder. Cause there was a very reason, like she had a very much a reason for it in 1890, after the Ripper murders. I don't think so. So she started, you're telling me she started with sex workers and ended up on a very personal murder? No. That doesn't make sense to me. And one that got her caught and hanged pretty quickly. Yeah. Like she got away with all the Ripper murders and then just happened to like lose her shit on this one. I don't think so. Like when they found the blood covered kitchen where she had brutally murdered her victim, they were like, look at all this blood. Like, what is this about? And she was like, oh, I was trying to kill mice. Yeah. That's why it's so bloody. And you're like, that's why there's blood on the ceiling? And she's like, hell yeah. She was like, there's a lot of mice, man. Like, come on, that's not Jack the Ripper. Sure isn't.

• 7:34:31Speaker 01

  I don't believe this one doesn't feel right. I get it. And I'm not going to tell you that it's absolutely 100% false. It's not for me though. It's not for me either. For that one. That brings us to Walter Sickert. I know this name. Now you may know this name. He's a famous artist, first of all. That's not why I know him. But second of all, you may have read about him in Portrait of a Killer, Jack the Ripper Case Closed by Patricia Cornwell. Sure did, brother. At your recommendation. I love Patricia Cornwell. I was in like high school and you said, read this book. I was like, read this bitch. You felt strong about that book. I read that book twice. Yeah. So I definitely have read it through and through. I love Patricia Cornwell.

• 7:35:15Speaker 01

  I think she is phenomenal. I've read all her books and I recommend you read not only this book, but read all her books. I don't know where I stand on this one anymore. Okay. I was very convinced when I read the books. I remember being super convinced. Through more research, I'm wavering. Her, her argument is compelling, but I am not completely convinced. Hmm. And the crux of the motive, of the motivation for him doing this is, seems to be that his, he had, um, he was supposedly impotent and it was brought on by multiple surgeries as a child for genital fistulas.

• 7:35:53Speaker 01

  This caused the impotence. He was very angry about this impotence. He took it out on women. Bah, da, bah. Yep. Now, the other thing is that he had an obsession with murder and the macabre and like the dark stuff and he painted about it. He used it as inspiration. I always hesitate to use that to convict anyone of anything because Look at all of us.

• 7:36:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. The first one seems plausible to me that he developed the hatred of women, blamed them for his problems with sex and intimacy and the like. That can cause rage. We've seen that happen. We've read cases of that happening. But apparently the hospital where he received all those surgeries actually might have only specialized in rectal fistulas and not penis ones. Ouch. So that's interesting. But again, that's just like a thing that people have found. Also, a lot of his, his wife and like people he was with in life claimed that he was like a serial adulterer and cheater. And he actually might have had like, like quote unquote illegitimate

• 7:36:58Speaker 01

  children throughout his life. So to me, that doesn't say he was an impotent person. He seems to be pretty If you have some kids, that'll Yeah, I don't know about that. But apparently the only time that this penile fistula was ever brought up was by his family member. And then this family member later said, well, it could have just been family gossip. And he, there was no real proof that he suffered from that. Uncle Walter's dick. Just, just, just the 1800s of it all, you know, like we all just talk about each other's genitalia. Yeah. Yell at each other about venereal diseases, blame people for murders. It's just all, it's

• 7:37:37Speaker 01

  all in good fun. Now, so I had to take a second. Penile fistulas just really threw me off. You're known to do that. Being casually talked about at like family dinners, just being like, oh my God, have you heard? Pass me the gravy also. Yeah. He can't fuck anymore. Isn't that nuts? Like, I just feel like, whoa, cousin Suzie? Like, why are we talking about that? Like, why do you care about Uncle Walter's sexual life? Why do you care about Uncle Walter's dick?

• 7:38:12Speaker 01

  It's not for me. I'm out. Good ol' Good ol' Sicker. Now, Patricia, Patricia Cornwall, was able to use mitochondrial DNA to match a sequence found on a Ripper letter stamp with letters written by Walter Sicker, which they know as the Sicker Letters. Very cool. This seems pretty damning. But the letter in question was the Dr. Openshaw letter, which me, Elena, now in 2022, says that letter is a whole load of bullshit. Okay. Definitely not written by Jack the Ripper. Now, if that's the letter he's tied to, then I think, yeah, maybe he wrote a hoax letter. Yeah.

• 7:38:57Speaker 01

  I can 100%. Maybe he's a jackass. I think he was. Like, I'm pretty sure Walter Sicker was an asshole. He's had many affairs, so there's that. But like, mitochondrial DNA is not a great identifier. We're gonna get more into mitochondrial DNA in a minute. It doesn't really narrow down to one person. It can, it can eliminate people. But it doesn't really narrow, it's not good for identifying. Again, it's great. Mitochondrial DNA is very valid, very awesome. High five mitochondrial DNA. But like in this kind of case, nah, compelling, compelling, but not case closed, in my opinion. But very

• 7:39:40Speaker 01

  cool that she was able to do that. And very cool that she like got all the way to London and was like, let's fucking test these. Like, that's my Patricia. Yeah. That's my Patricia right there. She takes the bull by the fucking horns, is what she does. She sounds like a tapeworm. I'm gonna look it up. Maybe she is. Now, I find it interesting, however, that he may have placed clues into his paintings to point to Ripper crime scenes. That was something that was brought up. Okay. He painted a lot of people who, especially, and Patricia was saying that Patricia's birthday is the day after mine. That bitch is a Gemini. Oh, look at that. They're determined. We're determined. There you go. Now, he painted a lot and, and I think she is right. I think, I think my friend Patricia is right. You're a girl.

• 7:40:23Speaker 01

  We're girls now. But I think she's right in saying that these subjects in his paintings, a lot of them do seem dead. And that even when they're not being presented as dead, they seem dead. And it's like, he does seem to like that kind of Googan. Situation. And a lot of his paintings do have dead people in them, like they're straight up dead people. But she pointed out that a lot of them seem like there's some kind of violence associated with them. It's, they're definitely dark. I will say that for sure. Yeah, they are, huh? It's, it's definitely an interesting note when you put it next to possible impotence

• 7:41:04Speaker 01

  and hatred of women. The mitochondrial DNA, which I'm like, but we'll, we'll put that next to it. It's definitely an interesting little thing. He had two particular paintings that people point to as proof. That sounded like, I was like Peter Piper picked a peck of pickled peppers. Like I said, a lot of peace. But you did it. But it was a lot. Pop filter is working. Two particular paintings that people point to as proof. Jack the Ripper's bedroom? There's one. Saw that. So one of them, I'll start with the other one first, the Camden Town murder, which was painted after Emily Dimmock was murdered in her bedroom in Camden. It was a real murder. The picture, the painting is a naked woman lying on a bed. She's facing away from the

• 7:41:46Speaker 01

  camera, so you don't see her face. And a man is sitting next to her with his head in his hands. It's haunting. It's like tragically beautiful. It's like very dark. He did a lot of sketches and works based off of these murders and inspired by other crimes like it, or like the Ripper murders. People tried to say he could only have painted some of these by being at Ripper crime scenes, but I beg to differ. I don't see anything concrete there. There was also a lot of sketches of different crime scenes. Exactly. And he actually painted a painting called Jack the Ripper's Bedroom, like you said, in 1907, 16 years after the murders ended. It's a really cool painting, to be honest, where it appears like an ominous figure in red and black is standing and peering

• 7:42:31Speaker 01

  out over Whitechapel. Yeah. The line of vision is through these double doors and like this long burgundy carpet. It's like very black and burgundy, the whole thing. It's very cool, in my opinion. I would love to have that painting. It's just like a very cool painting. It is. I agree. His landlord, his landlord, his landlady had once told him that the room he was renting was likely one that Jack the Ripper rented. Oh. And that's when he painted that. Cause he was like, oh, I'm staying in Jack the Ripper's bedroom. It's strange of her to say, considering we have not identified Jack the Ripper. But like, all right, landlady, go off. I mean, whatever you need to do to get people to stay in your, in your place back in the 1800s. Yeah, girl. You gotta make that money. But this definitely would have made me feel some type,

• 7:43:16Speaker 01

  some type of way if my landlady was like, hey, this room is probably where Jack the Ripper was staying when he was doing his murders. I would say, I'm gonna need my security deposit back. Bye. And I would have been like, give me a canvas if I was an artist. Cause I'd be like, holy shit, the dark shit, like energy here. Like, let's just see what comes out. Like, artists thrive over that stuff. Of course they do. They thrive over like heavy emotions and heavy feelings and Yeah. environments and stories and music and sounds and smells, like anything can get them going. Say that because Elena's parents slash my grandparents, yeah, were related, met in art school. They did. They're both artists. They've both, like, I've known them to paint through like some shitty times and like, they have some dark artwork as well. Exactly.

• 7:43:58Speaker 01

  That they've told us about and been like, this happened, so I painted this. Exactly. Like, I have a painting in my living room I was gonna say. Of a woman holding a baby and my mom painted it. And it's like very dark and very outside of her normal way of painting. Like, Is it a sketch? I was gonna say, it's actually a sketch. She's a painter and this is sketch, like a very gnarly, rough sketch, but it's beautiful. So beautiful. And she painted it after she suffered a couple of miscarriages and she finally had a baby and she titled it Joy. We should ask her if we can share it. We should, because it's a really beautiful painting and I love it. And it's in my house now because she gave it to us after, when we were going through our miscarriages and like, like the IVF situation. And like, it was a nice little reminder that like, it can happen. Exactly.

• 7:44:43Speaker 01

  But that's like a really dark thing and she painted through it. Right. That, and something good came out of it. And I think that that's how a lot of artists work. And I think Walter Sicker just happened to like dark shit. And he was inspired by the macabre. I understand that. So I'm not gonna sit here and fault him for that and accuse him of being Jack the Ripper because there's some things that I can say for sure that make me go, hmm. Like, he's one of the only, he's one of the only ones, there's a few, that you can go, hmm, you know what, I'm not gonna count you out yet. I'm not counting him out yet. Am I saying case closed? By no means. Am I saying case closed on him? But I'm saying, I don't know if we can really count him out. I wanna hang out with Patricia and I wanna hear everything she's got, cause she's got a lot of shit.

• 7:45:28Speaker 01

  You heard? Patricia Cornwall. We could celebrate our birthdays together. Celebrate your birthdays together. Like books, I love them. She writes them. I write them, I read them. You write them, you read them. I have your entire series on my bookshelf right now. Let's talk Jack the Ripper, girl. I'm in this now with you. You could have Pat, Patricia. You could have Elena's entire series of books. There you go. Let's become best friends, Patricia Cornwall. Tinyurl.com/thebutcherandtherend. Let's make it happen. Me and Patricia, I wanna sit down, I wanna hear all her stuff. You gotta. Because again, I'm obsessed with those books, like the book she wrote, like Portrait of a Killer, about this, with all her research. It's fascinating. It is compelling. Yeah.

• 7:46:12Speaker 01

  And it will make you sit there and go, huh. Yeah. And it's like, she has some other stuff that she has not released yet and I would die to sit down and hear it from her. About Walter? About Walter Sicker. And she is 100% convinced that he's the guy. I wanna know the other stuff that she's got. You think she's working on another one? I think she might be working on more shit. I believe in Patricia. I really do. But, you know, I will say, I understand the dark art being part of the theory because it's like, of course, along with everything else. And she even like places like crime scene photos next to some of his portraits. When you do that, it's a little wild. The positioning is a little wild sometimes and I get that. And that's why I can't say

• 7:46:56Speaker 01

  that he's not, because it is pretty compelling. But you can kind of argue those either way. He did resemble the description of the Ripper. He was a light complected male, under six feet tall with brown hair, brown mustache at the time, but like, we've already gone through that.

• 7:47:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:47:11Speaker 01

  But along with everything else.

• 7:47:13Speaker 02

  Still, yeah.

• 7:47:14Speaker 01

  The description fits. Now, an interesting tidbit was that Patricia had tests done, and this one will make you go, hmm. She had tests done on the papers used in the sickert letters and the Ripper letters. She wanted to see what kind of paper. There were watermarks. There was, it was a specific kind of paper. The same paper was used for three of the sickert letters and two of the Ripper letters. This was apparently from a run of paper that only had 24 sheets.

• 7:47:42Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 7:47:44Speaker 01

  So at the very least here, I believe he is a Ripper hoax letter writer.

• 7:47:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:47:49Speaker 01

  At the very least, he's connected in some way.

• 7:47:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:47:54Speaker 01

  And again, I urge you to read her book. She's phenomenal, in my opinion. I think she makes good points. She's on to something. There's also the possibility that he knew who Jack the Ripper was.

• 7:48:05Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 7:48:05Speaker 01

  And was covering.

• 7:48:07Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 7:48:07Speaker 01

  And was complicit.

• 7:48:09Speaker 02

  And maybe he used his artwork to get through all of the guilt of that.

• 7:48:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. And maybe he was, it could have been even as far as him being inspired by someone he knew who was committing these murders and putting that on to his art. So I think he is a valid one to look at. I'm not saying case closed on anyone because I don't think I have enough for that, but it's compelling to say the least.

• 7:48:33Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 7:48:34Speaker 01

  I will say that paper thing, at the least, he's a hoax writer.

• 7:48:38Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 7:48:39Speaker 01

  And again, read that book. I will link it. So I will add to the

• 7:48:44Speaker 02

  My god.

• 7:48:44Speaker 01

  library of Jack the Ripper books that I'm urging you all to read.

• 7:48:48Speaker 02

  Get a new bookshelf.

• 7:48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was gonna say, get a new bookshelf and get like a billion hours of time to read them because wow.

• 7:48:54Speaker 02

  Ooh, and some bookmarks.

• 7:48:55Speaker 01

  There you go. Lots of bookmarks. We love a bookmark. A bookmark.

• 7:48:58Speaker 02

  We love a bookmark.

• 7:48:59Speaker 01

  We love a bookmark. Sorry, I've just like transported back to this time for a second.

• 7:49:03Speaker 02

  It's all good.

• 7:49:03Speaker 01

  Uh, so let's get into the next guy, who's somebody you may have heard of. Um, it's, it's somebody called H.H. Holmes.

• 7:49:11Speaker 02

  Can you say it one more time?

• 7:49:13Speaker 01

  Uh, H. Dot. H. Dot. Holmes.

• 7:49:17Speaker 02

  No, I don't think so.

• 7:49:18Speaker 01

  Okay, I figured you might recognize it, but.

• 7:49:20Speaker 02

  Ha, ha, ha. Just kidding.

• 7:49:21Speaker 01

  So this one, I definitely want to go further into when we cover H.H. Holmes.

• 7:49:30Speaker 01

  Which is soon.

• 7:49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, you'll have to buy another book for that.

• 7:49:34Speaker 01

  I will give you a thousand other books for that.

• 7:49:37Speaker 02

  For real.

• 7:49:37Speaker 01

  That's probably gonna be another like several parter, deep dive. I'm gonna end up driving myself crazy and John in the process and probably Ash along the way.

• 7:49:47Speaker 02

  I'm already crazy, Schnookums.

• 7:49:49Speaker 01

  Uh, so that'll be in the next like few weeks. I'll definitely do it. It'll, it'll come up.

• 7:49:53Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:49:54Speaker 01

  Because I feel like, because it's, I can talk about this. It's, it'd be nice to have this like fresh, not too fresh, but a little fresh in your mind.

• 7:50:02Speaker 02

  Wow, girl.

• 7:50:03Speaker 01

  Um, so I will stay a little general here, but it makes a little bit of sense. I'm not convinced, but it makes a little bit of sense. I see it.

• 7:50:13Speaker 02

  I actually, like, I know the very basics of H.H. Holmes and like what his whole deal was.

• 7:50:18Speaker 01

  Most people do. It's, Holmes was someone with vast medical knowledge. He had a medical degree and was by all accounts, very skilled in that area.

• 7:50:26Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 7:50:27Speaker 01

  Uh, point one for being Jack the Ripper, at least in my eyes.

• 7:50:30Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 7:50:30Speaker 01

  He looked like the descriptions. He was medium build, medium height and had a dark mustache and he dressed fancy.

• 7:50:36Speaker 02

  Truth.

• 7:50:37Speaker 01

  However, they're vastly different. They are vastly different in their methods of killing. Holmes created a murder castle over like years and years and years, had various chutes and hidden doors and trap doors to dispose of bodies. Jack just left his victims in the street for everyone to find. Holmes was killing for insurance money and selling skeletons and shit and just liked to kill people. Like he just literally liked hurting people.

• 7:51:03Speaker 02

  Do you think it's possible that like, that like, he started killing people in Whitechapel and then was like, ooh, like I might get caught leaving these people out in public. So like, that's, maybe that was his whole inspiration for the murder house?

• 7:51:17Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 7:51:17Speaker 02

  Perhaps.

• 7:51:18Speaker 01

  Maybe. But it's, I don't, the reasonings aren't lining up for me.

• 7:51:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, because he wasn't, the whole insurance money thing and the skeletons.

• 7:51:29Speaker 01

  Holmes likes, liked a financial reward for his killings. He didn't always, but like, he liked that.

• 7:51:35Speaker 02

  And as we know, the previous victims wouldn't have no financials to give him.

• 7:51:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. Jack was seeming to be a man, in my opinion, on a mission out to send a message, not to get any money from it. He just, there was something he wanted to do here and he was locked on it. But Holmes was always working and he was always able to be tracked down through his financial nonsense. Like there is a very clear trail that you can follow of H.H. Holmes. July 1888 to 1889, nothing.

• 7:52:07Speaker 02

  Weird.

• 7:52:08Speaker 01

  In the United States.

• 7:52:09Speaker 02

  Weird.

• 7:52:10Speaker 01

  And according to diaries found by his great, great grandson, Jeff Mudgett, which I can't imagine suddenly realizing that you are H.H. Holmes's great, great grandson.

• 7:52:20Speaker 02

  That would be a wild discovery.

• 7:52:22Speaker 01

  It would be a real moment.

• 7:52:23Speaker 02

  Like some people log on to 23andMe and find out they're Jewish. Other people find out that H.H. Holmes is their great, great grandpa.

• 7:52:29Speaker 01

  I logged on to 23andMe and I found out that I am probably gonna get gallstones in my life and that I am 1.4% Italian. And this guy logged on and they were like, hey, America's first serial killer is your great, great grandfather.

• 7:52:44Speaker 02

  That's wild. Um, we do have a hot claim though. We have Viking blood.

• 7:52:48Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 7:52:49Speaker 02

  And it's pretty rare.

• 7:52:50Speaker 01

  It is pretty rare.

• 7:52:51Speaker 02

  So roar.

• 7:52:52Speaker 01

  So, so roar. Uh, he came right out. So, so, so natural.

• 7:52:58Speaker 02

  Much Viking.

• 7:52:58Speaker 01

  Roar. Uh, he, so Jeff Mudgett said that he, according to his diaries, was in London at the time of the murders.

• 7:53:05Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:53:06Speaker 01

  And that he mentioned training an assistant during that time as well. So there's also a ship manifest that has records that show an H. Holmes returning from Britain to the US right after the Mary Jane Kelly murder.

• 7:53:22Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 7:53:23Speaker 01

  Now, H. Holmes, it can be a name that a lot of people have.

• 7:53:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:53:29Speaker 01

  Just saying.

• 7:53:29Speaker 02

  All right. You love a ship manifest.

• 7:53:31Speaker 01

  I love a ship manifest.

• 7:53:33Speaker 02

  Can I like, should I get you a ship manifest for something?

• 7:53:36Speaker 01

  Please get me a ship manifest. Get me this ship manifest. Like this is a cool ship manifest because I don't even think it's him, but whatever. Now, the theory is that he was using the London murders as training sessions. He once wrote, quote, "I roamed about the world seeking whom I can destroy." But he was a liar. He was a known and proven fucking liar, liar pants on fire. He actually confessed to shit he didn't even do. Like he said he killed people that they later just found alive and well.

• 7:54:08Speaker 02

  That is true. And also I feel like he probably would have loved to have been considered Jack the Ripper. So that's why he kind of leaned into it.

• 7:54:16Speaker 01

  He's ego.

• 7:54:17Speaker 02

  Theatrical.

• 7:54:18Speaker 01

  And he was a killing machine. He killed because he liked it and he was able to financially gain from it. It was just like everything he needed. I got money from it and I like doing it. So it's just like, there you go. The Jack the Ripper killings always ring to me, like I said, more of a message, more of a hatred for these women or these streets or this place or these circumstances. There's something here. It was symbolic. I feel like it was deeper than just pure bloodlust. Bloodlust was part of it, but a message was there somewhere. He was sending fear throughout those streets. There was more to it. Holmes is just like ego with bloodlust. Like he's just like lying, conning, thieving. Like he's just a shithead.

• 7:55:02Speaker 01

  Jack is a shithead too, but like in a different way.

• 7:55:04Speaker 02

  Different kinds of shitheads.

• 7:55:05Speaker 01

  And maybe I've spent too much time and too many hours with Jack's bullshit, but he feels like he's just got something more to say. I don't know. It's hard to describe, but I remain unconvinced either way. That, and I want to get way more into that when I cover H.H. Holmes and I will, so just stay tuned for that. I'm, right now, I'm not convinced.

• 7:55:26Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:55:26Speaker 01

  But I'm not.

• 7:55:27Speaker 02

  Not convinced.

• 7:55:29Speaker 01

  Count, how many times Elena said that throughout the episode?

• 7:55:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:55:31Speaker 01

  Right now.

• 7:55:32Speaker 02

  I'm not convinced.

• 7:55:33Speaker 01

  Here, not convinced. I have, I have yet to say for sure. There's a couple of people that I'm like, no, that's not it. But there's a couple that I'm like, hmm, I don't know. Seems like it might be, right? Now here's someone who I really fucking don't think did it, but the whole, the whole world was told that this is the guy like a couple of years ago.

• 7:55:52Speaker 02

  Okay, yep, yep, yep.

• 7:55:53Speaker 01

  We're talking about Aaron Kozminski.

• 7:55:55Speaker 02

  Please go off, go off on the first reason why you did this. We have been talking about this because obviously she's been re-

• 7:56:02Speaker 01

  For weeks.

• 7:56:03Speaker 02

  I was gonna say weeks.

• 7:56:04Speaker 01

  Weeks.

• 7:56:04Speaker 02

  We've been talking about this.

• 7:56:06Speaker 01

  Aaron Kozminski, he didn't do it, first of all, and I'll go into a ton of the reasons why. Jack the Ripper's name isn't Aaron. It's just not.

• 7:56:15Speaker 02

  I don't see it. I refuse to believe it. To the point where John is taunting her and being like, no, it's Aaron.

• 7:56:21Speaker 01

  No, John is, yeah, John literally has been like, I, I think it's Aaron. I feel like it's Aaron. I don't know. I think it's Aaron. I just don't think it's Aaron. I don't know. It's just something about it doesn't work for me. It doesn't feel right.

• 7:56:36Speaker 02

  But is it Aaron though?

• 7:56:37Speaker 01

  It's not Aaron. It's not Aaron. And there's, there's much more to back that up than just his name not fitting for me.

• 7:56:44Speaker 02

  I literally have to say A A Ron.

• 7:56:47Speaker 01

  A Ron. Yeah, it's just not it. And by the way, I'm kidding in case anybody thinks that like names mean that you murder people and that I'm like saying that I'm not.

• 7:56:55Speaker 02

  I mean, we said like the entirety of this show that if you have three first names, you're a murderer.

• 7:57:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. So we, we, we don't, we don't completely subscribe to like, your name means you're going to be a killer.

• 7:57:06Speaker 02

  We're just joshing you.

• 7:57:07Speaker 01

  Just joking. But on a serious note, his name's not Aaron.

• 7:57:13Speaker 02

  Totally kidding. But by the way, fuck that.

• 7:57:15Speaker 01

  But no, not an Aaron. Now, in the McNaughton papers, he is that third suspect that they, that he names.

• 7:57:21Speaker 02

  Oh, he is.

• 7:57:22Speaker 01

  He's that third one. He wrote that he was, quote, "A Polish Jew who lived in the very heart of the district where the murders were committed. He had become insane owing to many indulgence and solitary vices. He had a great hatred of women, had strong homicidal tendencies and was, and I believe still is, detained in a lunatic asylum about March 1889."

• 7:57:46Speaker 02

  This man's really wanted a lunatic.

• 7:57:49Speaker 01

  Well, and also funny that you said this man, because the next thing is this man is in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the city PC near Mitre Square, which is where Catherine Eddo's was found.

• 7:58:00Speaker 02

  But everyone kind of looks like that.

• 7:58:02Speaker 01

  I love that they always say like, this person is just like an insane lunatic from an asylum. Like first, like chill, everybody. But also he got some stuff wrong. Weird. Uh, this guy was a hairdresser by trade originally. He was, but everybody said he was definitely not working at the time. He hadn't worked in years. He was just like floating around.

• 7:58:24Speaker 02

  All right.

• 7:58:25Speaker 01

  But he hairdressed at one point. Now, a lot, a lot of sources will say that Robert Anderson, our Switzerland jet setter, and Chief Donald Swanson, who took over while he was gone, both believed that this guy was Jack the Ripper and that they stated it.

• 7:58:40Speaker 02

  Why?

• 7:58:41Speaker 01

  They didn't.

• 7:58:42Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 7:58:43Speaker 01

  They didn't. According to Jack the Ripper Tour website, which I'll, I'll link in here, Anderson never named him, but instead wrote, he believed Jack was a, quote, "Polish Jew," which is what you can see in the McNaughton papers. Obviously, everybody's just talking out of their ass at this point. Swanson wrote in a little side note in the like, um, in the margins of Anderson's memoir, he like pointed to that where he said like, this person was a Polish Jew, quote unquote. He wrote, "In a very short time, the suspect," which is who the Anderson was referring to, "the suspect, with his hands tied behind his back, he went to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and die, and that's an asylum,

• 7:59:26Speaker 01

  and died shortly afterwards. Kozminski was the suspect." So they're saying, Anderson is saying the suspect for Jack the Ripper is this guy. And Swanson has written in the margins of that and pointed to that and said, that suspect that he's talking about went here. He died in an asylum right after he went into it. That was Kozminski. So that led people to go, oh, two plus two equals four. Kozminski, Aaron Kozminski. He died in an asylum a couple of years after he was put in one. And this guy's referring to a Polish Jew, which is what McNaughton is saying. Oh my God, that's him.

• 7:59:58Speaker 02

  Whoa.

• 7:59:59Speaker 01

  But Aaron Kozminski did not die in an asylum shortly after being put into it, which is what Swanson said, that he died shortly thereafter. He lived until 1919. So this was not the same Kozminski. This is another Kozminski.

• 8:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:00:14Speaker 01

  And there's certain spellings of the other Kozminski, which use a Z.

• 8:00:18Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 8:00:18Speaker 01

  And that's not how you spell this one. Now, it's ju, he's, he, no, this isn't the guy. He was very thin. Like described as being very gaunt and thin. He doesn't match any descriptions. He was never described as a man who was a danger to those around him, Aaron Kozminski. More that he was a danger to himself, he would be.

• 8:00:40Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 8:00:40Speaker 01

  The homicidal tendencies that McNaughton is talking, I couldn't find that in any records.

• 8:00:45Speaker 02

  Two people that he has said have homicidal tendencies might not have.

• 8:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, did not. They said he was not a, in fact, at least one of his admission notes specifically say he is not a danger to others.

• 8:00:58Speaker 02

  That's really sad.

• 8:00:59Speaker 01

  He was also declared insane. And I don't think Jack was insane, guys.

• 8:01:03Speaker 02

  But these people do.

• 8:01:04Speaker 01

  I don't think it. I just don't. And he wasn't in an asylum until two years after Mary Jane Kelly's murder. So he was walking around for two years, doing nothing after killing Mary Jane Kelly in that fashion?

• 8:01:16Speaker 02

  But isn't this the same guy that thinks like he like powers down and then powers up again?

• 8:01:20Speaker 01

  That's the thing. And I guess so. It's like, that just doesn't make sense. But we fly forward to 2019.

• 8:01:28Speaker 02

  Woo. Do the soldier boy into 2019.

• 8:01:31Speaker 01

  There you go. This is when it was claimed that DNA had solved the case of Jack the Ripper. We have identified the man and Aaron is the guy. Rejoice, right?

• 8:01:44Speaker 02

  Wrong.

• 8:01:45Speaker 01

  No, don't rejoice. I don't buy it and neither should you.

• 8:01:49Speaker 02

  Rejoice for not.

• 8:01:50Speaker 01

  I do not believe this. So the DNA in question was taken from a silk shawl, said to be found next to Catherine Eddo's body at the crime scene. Already, Ripperologist Russell Edwards owns this piece of history. He owns the shawl.

• 8:02:06Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 8:02:07Speaker 01

  Which I'm like, whoa.

• 8:02:09Speaker 02

  And it was there. Oh, sorry. My bad.

• 8:02:12Speaker 01

  No, I, I, you can't see this, but I held up a finger and went, mm-mm.

• 8:02:15Speaker 02

  She said, don't go there yet.

• 8:02:16Speaker 01

  I said, mm-mm.

• 8:02:16Speaker 02

  She said, we're not there yet.

• 8:02:17Speaker 01

  She said, slow down. Well, he asked, he has this. He bought it wherever he bought it from. I don't know where you buy something like that, but like, holy shit. And he asked for it to be tested a while ago by a lab at University of Leeds and John Moores University in Liverpool. He wanted to see if there was any DNA on this that could tie. They got some shit from it, but then in 2013 or 2014, I forget which year, Edwards wrote a book saying, this is the guy that bought the shawl. He wrote a book saying it proved that Aaron Kozminski was the killer, but the results were not made public, like the DNA test results. So we were just taking everyone's word for it. I didn't.

• 8:02:56Speaker 01

  I didn't. Then in 2019, they released those results finally in a peer reviewed journal, the Journal of Forensic Science. What they found was that there was blood on the shawl and other stains that they felt could be semen stains. They found there was some mitochondrial DNA that matched Catherine Eddo's and Aaron Kozminski. Sounds great. Case closed. No.

• 8:03:24Speaker 02

  Nah.

• 8:03:25Speaker 01

  Mitochondrial DNA is great. Like I said, great, valid, wonderful. Woo hoo for mitochondrial DNA. No arguments there.

• 8:03:33Speaker 02

  DNA so hot right now.

• 8:03:36Speaker 01

  Hot right now. But it is not a uniquely specific identifier. It is not used to identify. It cannot say that it is 100% one person. Mitochondrial DNA can be used to rule a lot of people out. That is what it is used for elimination. If there is no match, it makes sense. But a lot of people who don't share this, any relation of any kind can have the same or similar mitochondrial DNA. It is only from your maternal side. That's all it is. So it doesn't narrow anything down to a single person. It can narrow the field a bit, I guess. But it's really not helping in this case.

• 8:04:11Speaker 02

  I think this actually happened in one of the cases that I covered.

• 8:04:14Speaker 01

  I think it did.

• 8:04:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:04:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:04:15Speaker 02

  I can't recall right now.

• 8:04:17Speaker 01

  And it was the mitochondrial DNA.

• 8:04:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I remember I think I believed that the person was not responsible.

• 8:04:22Speaker 01

  Yep. That's exactly what it was. Now, this could mean that the shawl might not have even belonged to Catherine Eddo's. Cause yeah, you're saying you have her mitochondrial DNA on it. That can also match a ton of other people.

• 8:04:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 8:04:36Speaker 01

  So you're just hoping it matches hers because you're saying that this was found at the crime scene.

• 8:04:42Speaker 02

  But we don't know that.

• 8:04:43Speaker 01

  I never read anything about a shawl being found. None of the investigative reports, none of the police reports say that they collected a shawl.

• 8:04:53Speaker 02

  Wouldn't you also think that if the shawl was next to her body, it would be doused in blood?

• 8:04:58Speaker 01

  That's the thing. You would think so. I mean, who knows where, where they're saying it was. I don't know about it because in fact forensic tests said it could have been that, that shawl wasn't even from 1888. And in fact, wasn't made until 1910.

• 8:05:13Speaker 02

  And also.

• 8:05:13Speaker 01

  Possibly in another part of Europe.

• 8:05:15Speaker 02

  And he burned a lot of her clothing.

• 8:05:17Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:05:18Speaker 02

  To, to keep that fire going.

• 8:05:19Speaker 01

  No, that was Mary Jane Kelly. We're talking Catherine Eddo's.

• 8:05:22Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.

• 8:05:22Speaker 01

  Catherine Eddo's, in case you were, because I know it's like hard to keep everything straight. Catherine Eddo's was the second to last.

• 8:05:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 8:05:28Speaker 01

  She was the one that was very brutally eviscerated right before the Mary Jane Kelly. It was like.

• 8:05:34Speaker 02

  The one whose kidney was taken.

• 8:05:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, the kidney was taken. Yeah, exactly.

• 8:05:37Speaker 02

  Sorry. My bad. Damn it. I thought I was on to something.

• 8:05:40Speaker 01

  There you go. Yeah. But this was, she was the one found in Mitre Square. It was outside. I never saw anything about a shawl. I don't know where that, in fact. In what she was wearing, it's not described that she was wearing a shawl. So I don't know where that shawl came from. Yeah, and she was wearing everything she owned. Exactly. And so I don't know about that. They didn't say conclusively that it was from 1888. They said, a lot of people don't think it was from 1888. I don't know. But also, I stand by my belief that he did not rape them or have sex with them before killing them. So the semen thing is strange to me. If that's semen, I don't think it was from that. I don't think he would have had time to get semen on anything. He didn't have time to do that. No.

• 8:06:22Speaker 01

  Sexually mutilating the person, he definitely did that. But I don't think this was him producing semen at the scenes. Like I said before, I really don't. He wouldn't have had time to do that. If anything, if anything, to be honest. But also, they never scientifically established that the stains are in fact semen. This all feels like confirmation bias to me. They want it to be Erin, they want it to be Catherine Eddes, so they fit everything to be Catherine Eddes and Erin. Right. Not to mention, they never released the specific genetic findings. It's all graphs and like blocks and stuff. No specific genetic variants are seen. And a forensic scientist, Walter Parson, he spoke out about them failing to share the specific variants and all of that.

• 8:07:07Speaker 01

  And he said, quote, "Otherwise, the reader cannot judge the results. I wonder where science and research are going when we start to avoid showing results, but instead present colored boxes." Because it was just like a colored graph. That was a sick burn, Walter. It was a sick burn. I don't think this proves anything. I think this was pure confirmation bias. And to be honest, I am not convinced that that is Catherine Eddes' shawl. Someone's gonna have to show me otherwise. I don't believe it. All right. I don't see it. If you can find in an investigative report or some police report that they picked up a motherfucking shawl A motherfucking shawl. That I will eat my hat, but I did not find it. I just don't buy it.

• 8:07:48Speaker 01

  And it's, again, that mitochondrial DNA can match Catherine Eddes. It can also match a billion other people. Well, not a billion, but like a lot. A lot, yeah. It can also match Erin Kosminski. It can match a bunch of other people in there, too. And if you're not gonna show me without a shadow of a doubt that that is a semen stain, then I don't buy it. And if it is a semen stain, and you're telling me that's from Whitechapel in the 1800s, well, honey, that could be from a lot of places. So I'm not gonna sit here and say this is definitely from a Jack the Ripper victim. Jesus, like what? It's not. I don't believe it's Erin. I'm not into the Erin theory. No way. But do you think it could be Erin? It's not Erin. Okay. It's not Erin. And you know what?

• 8:08:33Speaker 01

  If you ask John, it's Erin, and I'm angry about it. He needs to listen to me again, go through this whole spiel. Simply for teasing purposes, he thinks it's Erin. It is not Erin. So the last one, I'm just gonna mention briefly. This is just like a quick little. His name was James Maybrick. He is a suspect I'm going to talk about in a couple of weeks when I cover his entire case. Oh. Him and his wife Florence Maybrick. It's a very interesting case. He is definitely not Jack the Ripper, according to me, who is obviously an expert. He's not him at all. Are you a ripperologist at this point? I think I am. What qualifies somebody as a ripperologist? I am not a ripperologist. I'm probably like pissing so many people off by saying that. I'm totally kidding, I'm not.

• 8:09:17Speaker 01

  But I honestly, I love, this case has made me wanna continue. Well, what qualifies you? I think you, I probably need to do a lot more. Yeah, you gotta put in some more work there. Do it. And I'm willing to do it. So I think I might do it. And then, I don't know, let me know what it takes to be a ripperologist. With all the extra time you have. I would like to add that onto my list. Just Capricorn things. I'm gonna keep going with it. We know. I'm telling you, I will have a definitive suspect in mind, and I will tell you when it pops in my head. You think it's, you think you're gonna get there? I know I'm gonna get there. Whoa, the determination, I just said. I think, I also think that, I don't know if Patricia wants to join forces.

• 8:10:01Speaker 01

  We can, we can get on this shit, and we can solve it together. Patricia, I have the determination. Let's go. Let's go, girl. But yeah, it's not Erin. So there's that. That was a great try, science, but that did not work out well. Screaming. And the bitch yells at science. I love science. But that's, I think, I think it's me over here with science being like, that doesn't work. You're like, no. Close, but no, I don't know, science words, never mind. Close, but no deoxyribonucleic acid. Hot.

• 8:10:37Speaker 01

  So we will talk about James Maybrick in the coming few episodes or weeks. And that is the conclusion of Jack the Ripper for now.

• 8:10:51Speaker 01

  The way that that sentence was almost so satisfying. For now. No, I'm totally kidding. At you. This is great. Thanks. I hope you guys enjoyed this. I hope you were horrified by it. I hope you got a little insight into these women and their lives in Whitechapel at the time. I hope you watch Peaky Blinders. I hope you listen to Unobscured, season three. Unobscured. That's how you would like to say it. Watch Peaky Blinders, though. I know this has nothing to do with it, but watch that. And we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you do a deep dive on Jack the Ripper and it's five parts and holy shit, you think that you might solve it someday.

• 8:11:36Speaker 01

  But actually, you should keep it that weird, because like you might solve it someday, that'd be like really cool. But you, blah, blah, bye. I'm gonna do it.

• 8:12:11Speaker 00

  Marina Baccarin is back as straight-shooting Sheriff Mickey Fox in Sheriff Country, season two. Mickey investigates crime while patrolling the streets of small-town Edgewater, contending with her ex-con father, while also dealing with personal battles and an ever-growing criminal threat. Don't miss Sheriff Country, all new CBS Fridays and streaming on Paramount+.

• 8:12:31Speaker 04

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