Morbid Book Club: Killing The Boogeyman by Richard Chizmar

Weirdos! We are stoked to bring you this special Bonus MORBID BOOK CLUB episode, #sponsored by our friends at @ashleyofficial ! This month we are joined by the incredible Richard Chizmar to chat about his upcoming release, Killing the Boogeyman available everywhere on 10/6/2026! Richard takes us behind the scenes of the writing process of this series that blends memoir and horror, talks about ticking of not one- BUT TWO dream collaborations off of his bucket list, and what it’s like to spend YEARS willingly inviting the Boogeyman into your brain! #ashleypartner

• 0:08Speaker 00

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• 0:41Speaker 01

  Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. I'm Alina.

• 0:44Speaker 02

  I'm Rich.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  And this is a very special episode of Morbid. It is. We have a special guest, Richard Chismar. Welcome to the show.

• 0:52Speaker 02

  Hello, thanks for having me.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Thank you for coming. Yeah, we've just been hanging and chatting for a little while. Already great vibes to start off. The vibes are immaculate here.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  I've known you guys for a long time already.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Right? Yeah, we're homeless. We've been trading arcs back and forth for a little while. I feel like so we're getting to know each other here. And you have a new book in the series, The Boogeyman series, Killing the Boogeyman. It's coming out October 6. I've got to read this ahead of time and I feel very lucky. I'm jealous. I love this series so much. I'm gonna steal your arc. I love stealing your arcs. You can steal the arc. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, it's awesome. And it's such a good conclusion to the series.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  It's kind of crazy.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  I know. Seeing them all right here. It must be to see them all lined up, right?

• 1:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially because there was never supposed to be a second book.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:38Speaker 02

  No, never.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:39Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  This was just supposed to stop at the first one?

• 1:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  I would have been sad.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Writing about myself for one book was enough.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46Speaker 02

  I actually remember telling my editor and my agent, I'm like, that's it.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  That's it. Can't do it again.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  And I'll be honest, even though the first one was like a surprise hit, no one was like banging down my door saying, we need a second one, we need a second one. And then I was mowing the lawn one day, as crazy as that sounds. And, and like in a five-minute span, I had the idea for the entire first chapter of Becoming the Boogeyman, which ends with a, with a, and I never say this about my work, because I envy those writers who are like, I can't wait till you read my next book. It's great.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:18Speaker 02

  Because I'm always like, well.

• 2:19Speaker 01

  I'm like, I hope you like it.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  If you decide you hate it, I hope you don't figure that out until you spent the $29 on it.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  It does have that in common.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  So I get my royalty.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it just for the, for the first time, I just knew that chapter was good. And it ended on that twist that connected so strongly to the first book. So I remember thinking, if anyone can read that first chapter and not, you know, if they're standing in the store reading it, and they read it, and they can't, they don't take it up to the register, I'll be shocked.

• 2:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  So, you know, it just fit that neatly. So I was like, okay, I have to write it. And then, just through discussions with my, my editor, he, you know, he's like, yeah, it's gotta be a trilogy. These always have to be a trilogy.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 2:58Speaker 02

  You know?

• 2:58Speaker 01

  You got to.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:59Speaker 01

  I loved it. That first chapter immediately hooked me. And just the idea of Chasing the Boogeyman got me right away. Because I picked it up in the fiction section. But as I'm reading it, like, looking through it, I was like, is this real? Like, this feels real. And the more I read it, the more I was like, you made that feel so real. That's several times, I knew, again, I got it in the fiction section. I knew it was not real. But several times, I was like, is this real? Like, I was like, is any part of this real? Because you nailed the true crime book vibes.

• 3:33Speaker 02

  I love true crime. So that was the thing. It's like, you know, I've always thought, you know, if there was a local case, and it was the right thing, and I felt like I could add something to the stories and, and, you know, in a dignified way, and honor the victims and the, and the survivors. You know, maybe I'd do it because I actually kind of enjoy research.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Even though I write books where I just, you know, I don't have to do research, I just make it up.

• 3:58Speaker 01

  There's always something to research.

• 3:59Speaker 02

  But yeah, I always thought that if that came, and then when I sat down to write this story, I thought, you know what, I'm gonna write this. It's the photos, I think, that did it for a lot of people.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  The photos, that's what kept making me go back and Googling whether this was real, because they came out so real. And it felt like a true crime book. Oh, I bet.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  And you know how most photos in a true crime books, they're all in one spot?

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're always in the middle.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  Which I don't like.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  It was like in the middle.

• 4:21Speaker 02

  They make sense. I know it's cheaper to print, and they put it on the glossy paper sometimes, so it's nice.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  So you know it's there.

• 4:26Speaker 02

  But I always found myself flipping back and forth, because I want to see what this person looks like.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  Whether it's the good guy, the bad guy, the detective, you know, the senator who gave the press conference, whoever it is, I want to see what they look like. When, when, I want to see what that crime scene looks like, you know, and in the good true crime books, they're, you know, the crime scenes aren't bloody or gory. They're just like trampled down grass behind a shed.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  But it adds so much to that moment when you're reading about it.

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  Exactly. So I knew I wanted photos, and I knew I wanted to put them at the end of each chapter.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that.

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Because that's exactly how I am. I end up like flipping through and being like, what does this person look like? Okay, I'm gonna go back. Yeah, you gotta like remind yourself throughout the book. That you had them all condensed into each thing.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  And I think it gave that immediate reinforcement that, hey, what I just read, was that, because who's dumb enough to take a bunch of fake photos? I am, you know?

• 5:15Speaker 01

  And they look real. It's hard to like stage those kind of photos.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:20Speaker 01

  And not have them look like, you know, like really like fake. And they, I was like, these are too real to be fake. That must have been so fun to do.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  They were so much fun. And that's the thing, most, again, most photos in true crime books, they're not exciting.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  No.

• 5:35Speaker 02

  You know, they, so that's, that was the goal, is to have them be, you know, on the mundane side, right?

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, which is hard when it's lifelong friends, you know, dressed up in thrift clothes.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Trying to be serious.

• 5:46Speaker 02

  To be the detective, and you're like, stop it. Stop flexing your jaw. You know, stop sucking in your stomach. Yeah. So, you know, the photos were the most fun part. And there's times when, I mean, my son and I took most of them, but we had, you know, some of the actors from the short films we've done together, you know, some of them came back, they had wardrobes, so they were cheap, thank God, and.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Oh, I love it.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  And willing to do it. And, but the photos are almost the most fun.

• 6:09Speaker 01

  They are. Because I feel like any, like, I, I'm like, I'm jealous. Like, I want to take photos for my books now, even though like, I'm like, that's so fun.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Yes, you can.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Because just to be able to visualize it too, along with it, I feel like that's such an added bonus to it. Definitely.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  Well, the original idea for Chasing the Boogeyman was to Blair Witch the audience completely.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yes. We heard about that, and I'm so sad that you couldn't.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, it really quickly. I was thrilled that Simon, you know, that Eslesinger Gallery bought it. So don't get me wrong. But then I was really bummed once I had those phone conferences with the legal department. And they were telling me, you know, it wasn't even like a close call. It wasn't like, well, we're gonna think about it. It was just like, Rich, no. You'll get sued, we'll get sued, everybody. It's a no win.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  It's a great talk. Thanks.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, but I have plans. And they're like, no. I'm like, but I have a fake website to post online. It looks like it got updated to like the mid 90s, and then it just stopped.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  That'd be so sick.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  I have fake newspaper articles.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  I had all this stuff planned. And what's funny is, is ultimately, I wanted to script like a three-part podcast.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  And have someone.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Which would have gone along perfect.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, yes. And, and, you know, I would be a, one of the guests, and, you know, the detective would be a guest, and some of my friends. And, and I'm just like, that would be fun.

• 7:28Speaker 01

  That'd be great prologue, too. It really would. Yeah.

• 7:31Speaker 02

  I still might do that one day.

• 7:32Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I feel like you could. Yeah. There's ways to get it. Just put some money aside for when you get sued, you know?

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 7:38Speaker 01

  It's fun. Like, that's all. Just be prepared. Because as someone who was around for that Blair Witch original marketing, like, I try to tell, I've told Ash before. I'm so jealous. That was the best marketing. And we'll never get that kind of marketing back. Because it was like right in the beginning of like, when the internet was exploding.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  Damn internet.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  But that's what it is. It's like too fast.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  There was nothing but pluses back then.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was, and I remember looking at that Blair Witch website and being like, this is real. Like, I'm looking at real footage.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Oh, and when they did the documentary.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  That sealed it for, you know, I mean, I'm gullible as it is.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  I was so gullible. Oh, I would have been too.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  I'm a believer, like, you know, my friends will tell you, you know, it's like, Rich hasn't changed. He's still, you know, he thinks he's seen Bigfoot, you know, he believes in the Loch Ness monster, even though he's never been anywhere near there.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  No, same, same. You're in your place.

• 8:27Speaker 02

  He's seen him, he sensed him, he believes in him.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Yes. You're in a safe place here.

• 8:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I figured.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. I love it.

• 8:35Speaker 02

  And I, yeah, even if I'm not, I'm like, I can't pretend I'm anything other. Remember the childlike enthusiasm we talked about? That's just me.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  That's just there. Hell, yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  So, yeah, so for me, it was natural. And I wanted to, you know, the documentary for Blair Witch kind of reinforced it. And I just thought, if I have all this supplemental material.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  That goes beyond the photos in the book. I'm like, I feel like I could, and even my son, who's not the most, my oldest son, who's a writer, who's not the most logical of, of guys, even he really early on was like, Dad, you know, you can't do that. You're like, gonna drive down property values and Edgewood and stuff. And I'm like, you know, Mr. Mature, I'm like, I don't care.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  I'm like, but I'm gonna scare everyone. I'm like, we're gonna hear that people are scared to walk their dogs and stuff at night.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's actually really fun, okay? Stop trying to put a damper on my thing. We're gonna ruin people's peace. That's fine.

• 9:26Speaker 02

  Exactly. I'm like, they're gonna start a neighborhood watch because of me.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  You're like, have you heard of a prank? Okay?

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Yes. I'm like, we could put on masks and scare people.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, everybody's getting too serious.

• 9:36Speaker 02

  We'll get shot. I'm like, really?

• 9:38Speaker 01

  See, that's why things are no fun anymore. It's true. You know? Like, come on. I can, I feel like book, I think readers too would appreciate that kind of thing. Because I feel like readers love that kind of stuff, like, any kind of like, interactive, like, really embursing themselves in the book. So I feel like it would work. I think so.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Most of them, most of them had nothing but, you know, good memories from the book. But there were those who got pissed off at me.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Because they thought it was real.

• 10:03Speaker 02

  Because I tricked them.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  You tricked them?

• 10:04Speaker 02

  I'm like, I thought that's what I'm supposed to do.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  And that's also in the fiction section.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:08Speaker 01

  Like, it's not in the true crime section.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Well, it says a novel.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  That showed me.

• 10:11Speaker 02

  You know, my editor.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  That was the first thing that I looked and I was like, oh, a novel. Yeah. That tells me it's not.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  My editor, who is, who is amazing at his job, and is just a really good guy, this guy named Eslesinger, he told me really early on, he's like, we gotta put this disclaimer in the front.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 02

  And I was like. You know, I'm like low maintenance, but this was like the only time I was like, no, I'm dying on the sale. I'm like, if you want it in there, you have to write it. So he did.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  You're like, here, everybody goes ruining my fun again.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  I did. I pouted, you know, it's like I get this wonderful book sale for this weird book that I wrote about myself in. And somehow I'm still pouting, but that was it.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:49Speaker 02

  But yeah, I'm like, so what I want to say when they get mad at me is, hey, it says a novel right on the

• 10:55Speaker 01

  It does.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  And there is a disclaimer, but what I, what I knew from my own personal experience is no one reads those.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  No, that's true. They get right to the juicy stuff.

• 11:03Speaker 02

  A note to the reader, and as soon as you start, this is a work and you're like.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  They're like, whatever.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  So I love the fact that, that, you know, you thought it and lots of people said that they're like, I knew it was a novel going in, but by chapter three, I was Googling.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  That was the thing. Cause you, again, you get it in like the fiction section. You're not getting it in the true crime section. So you know where you got it from.

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  I knew where I got it from.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:26Speaker 01

  And I still was Googling being like, are there parts of this that's real? And like, I'm missing something like that's how real it felt.

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Well, I love that. I love hearing that. And I tried to write it like a true crime book, you know, I tried to write it very, you know, a matter of fact in places, because you're not trying to, you know, glamorize anything.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  You're, you're trying to, again, you know, lend dignity to, uh, to what happened and the people who, who remain and all that. And, um, yeah, I, I, so I tried to, there were times where, you know, I find myself getting a little too dramatic or fictiony and I'm like, dial it back.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  You gotta pull the prose back.

• 11:58Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I mean, it, you know, who knows? Three books is enough, but you never know. I'm not giving away anything.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  All right. I love that.

• 12:06Speaker 02

  You never know. I just, I, I always hear people who are like, well, it was meant to be, you know, six, and now there's 14. I'm like,

• 12:12Speaker 01

  I know.

• 12:13Speaker 02

  It's probably somewhere right now rolling outside going, no more.

• 12:15Speaker 01

  It's true. As, as someone who is also on book three in a series, everybody's like, there has to be another one. I'm like, I don't know.

• 12:23Speaker 03

  And I'm, there has to be another one.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  I know. I don't, I'm not.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  I know.

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Said it's a trilogy like they did with mine, which is, you know, them giving me a real strong hint, Rich be done.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  You gotta be done here. So I also loved the little things, especially in becoming the boogeyman, where it was like a text from Stephen King. And I was like, this is fun. I was like, this is fun to read.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Again, I tried to make it as real life as possible. So it's like, it's my idiot friends who I love dearly, who are texting me. It's my sisters. It's, you know, I make reference to my one sister Nancy, who is, you know, um, who was not subtle. You know, there, there's never a single text. There's always four or six or 14.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  That's how I text you.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  It's just block.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yep. And then there's my friends who are yelling at me because I don't return phone calls. So I tried to, that was the most fun with becoming the boogeyman is, is I could drag myself coming through the wringer.

• 13:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 13:16Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was like, the press was ripping me, you know, half of my hometown loved me. The other half was like, what a pain in the ass. He's probably in on this, you know, look, you bought a big house because of the, the, the blood money. And I was just like,

• 13:28Speaker 01

  You're like, yeah, let's roast me.

• 13:31Speaker 02

  You know, the internet hated me. So that was fun.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  That is fun. It's kind of like, it feels like it would be cathartic.

• 13:37Speaker 03

  Almost like exposure therapy.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 02

  It was. I'm like, I know half these people are thinking it anyway.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  And you're like, you can't be as mean to me as I can be mean to me.

• 13:45Speaker 03

  Let me write it first.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Just wait. Sit back and watch.

• 13:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Brilliant.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  So.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  Well, and going back to like the boogeyman thing, like the boogeyman is one of those monsters that I think like, everybody has a different idea of what the boogeyman is, but they all know what the boogeyman is. Where did your personal, personal relationship with the boogeyman begin?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Wow. Uh, probably like as soon as I was old enough to, you know, have dreams and, and just, I've always been, you know, I've always been the storyteller in the group.

• 14:18Speaker 02

  I've always been the one who really enjoyed scaring everyone. Like I wrote about, you know, walking up the gravel driveway of the Myers field. I really did tell everyone scary stories and then I would wait for that strategic moment, look over my shoulder screen and take off running. But the thing is, is the reason I told those stories, because I was scared to death.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  So I'm like, you know what? I'm not going to be alone.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Bringing everybody else in.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  It was a distraction and, and, um, so yeah, the boogeyman was like, you know, my wife will tell you, you know, I, I still believe in the boogeyman. I, you know, the scene in, in, in, I guess it's chasing where I take out the garbage and I always talk about it where, and, and I just, just describe knowing, I'm being watched. Someone's here. It is a

• 14:59Speaker 01

  You can just sense it.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Vile, alien feeling. And, um, I, I felt it at some point, probably a lot, taking out the garbage when I was young. So that's where that came from. And now we have this very long driveway and I still hate taking the garbage out after dark.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  I, I hate it.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  You won't catch me doing that.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  So many hiding places.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the thing. I think everybody has that one chore, like one thing they have to do where you're like, uh, something creepy gonna happen when I do that?

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, I don't like going in our cellar. It's

• 15:29Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say that.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  And it has, so for the ceiling beams, it has complete trees.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 15:35Speaker 02

  Complete 250 something.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  Growing up had those too.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And most of them are stripped of the bark, but there's still bark on some. And it's just like, again, you talk about an alien thing.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  To a modern, you know, in a modern world. So, and it's dark and it's stone walls. And I'm just like, it's like the Blair Witch basement.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:52Speaker 03

  It's the perfect setting for something to happen.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  I always expected someone standing in the corner.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I hate it. I hate it.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  Or little handprints all over the place.

• 15:59Speaker 02

  There are handprints.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:02Speaker 02

  And names written on this, on the, on this one cubby hole. It's like to the outside. Yeah. It's, yeah.

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a lot.

• 16:08Speaker 03

  Oh, that's, that's freaky.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:11Speaker 03

  It's freaky, but it's fun. That's what we love, you know? That's why you live there.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  And that's why you write good scary books.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Well, I, I think that's part of it is that, that I still am a believer.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 02

  I'm still scared and, and it's to their great humor.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  You know, and my older son, Billy, the writer and the filmmaker, he's like me.

• 16:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  You know, we, I always tell the story of the first time we watched Paranormal Activity, which some people think is dumb.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  No, I hate when people say that.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  We love Paranormal Activity.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  We, we started watching it at night, opposite sides of the sofa. And this is a pretty typical experience. And as that movie went on, we got closer and closer. And we're halfway through. And I mean, we are snug. And at some point we kind of looked at each other and we said, let's finish this tomorrow in the daylight.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  And we're like, yep, goodnight, goodnight. And we both just went our separate ways.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  It's the simplicity.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  My youngest son is more like my wife, Cara, very practical. So they get to the end of a movie like that and they're like, that was kind of dumb. And we're just like, what did, what were you watching?

• 17:08Speaker 01

  Were you watching the same thing?

• 17:09Speaker 02

  So it's a good thing that I do write what I write because I do think it helps.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Um, and especially when I'm writing with a sense of nostalgia as a kid, because I'm still, you know, I am still that big kid.

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  In so many ways, and especially the imagination and, and, um, yeah, I, I hope I never get that educated out of me. Well, at this point, I think it's too late. I think, I think I'm a lost cause. I see my wife nodding.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Honestly, I feel that way too. I'm like, I am what I am at this point.

• 17:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Kindred spirits know, you know, we're going to circle the wagons because we're all weirdos.

• 17:42Speaker 03

  As soon as you guys stepped in, you started talking about your haunted house. I was like, oh, you're in good company. These are our people.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you, yeah. And you sense it, you know?

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  You sense it when you're talking to someone who's like super practical and all that. And they're just like looking at you and they're like, but Rich, you know, there's no such thing. And I just stop them. I'm like, no, I don't.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Like, I don't know that. Neither do you.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  None of us know.

• 18:03Speaker 02

  I'm like, well, tell me about the afterlife, Mr. Know It All.

• 18:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, right?

• 18:05Speaker 02

  You know?

• 18:06Speaker 01

  That's the thing, because I have like, I have like both sides of the brain where I like, I really want to disprove certain things. Like my brain wants to do that.

• 18:14Speaker 02

  Scully all in one.

• 18:15Speaker 01

  She really is.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  That's really awesome.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Way to describe it. I'll take that. And that's, so I always want to prove it wrong, but I never can. And so I'm like, so I'm not going to sit here and say that I know, because I don't.

• 18:28Speaker 03

  It's because you have that sciencey side to you.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I want to figure out why things happen.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 18:33Speaker 03

  I get that.

• 18:34Speaker 01

  Nine times out of 10, I can't.

• 18:35Speaker 03

  Me, I just accept it for what it is.

• 18:37Speaker 01

  I love, that's what I love.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  Ash is just like, yep.

• 18:40Speaker 03

  That's haunted and I don't know why, but okay.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  And I don't want to hear anything else. That's it. I try to disprove and if I can't, then I'll say, okay, I don't know. That's, that's a ghost, I guess. Like, that's it.

• 18:52Speaker 03

  And nine out of 10 times, it's a ghost.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 18:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. I can't prove it most of the time.

• 18:57Speaker 03

  Right?

• 18:57Speaker 02

  I'm with you. And I'm still, I'm still, again, because I'm a guy, I think I'm dumb enough to, to still poke the hornet's nest. I mean, we did, we did like a Gettysburg ghost tour and I'm the dummy one.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  I want to do that so bad.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  Took one of my son's friends and he was just terrified. So at some point I decided to be a wise ass. And I'm like, I started like, calling down the spirits to take over his body.

• 19:18Speaker 03

  No. See, you're the one in the group that I'd be like, you gotta go.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  I'm the first one to die. Don't worry, I'll be dead soon enough. Um, but yeah, I, I had him praying in a corner.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 19:31Speaker 02

  So scared. I'm like, I had to apologize to his father and the whole thing. I'm like, he probably broke out in a rash and the whole thing.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  Sorry I traumatized your son.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Because I was like using, you know, I'm like, come down. I summon you, take over Gavin. And, and the next thing I know, he's praying. I'm just like, okay. I'm going too far.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  You're like, shit, sorry.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  My work here is done. All right. You gotta go.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Oh, that's great.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Uh, now, growing up, did you have a local legend or a local boogeyman that you remember? A lot of small towns have that.

• 20:00Speaker 02

  A little bit. I mean, I wrote about the guy called the rubber band man in Chasing the Boogeyman.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  Um, people asked me if that was real, that when I hid inside the playground tunnel and the smell. And I'm like, you know what? I think it was real. Cause that was the thing, Chasing the Boogeyman, everything, I wrote about everything as I remember it. Except for the murders, which I mean, and, and everyone's names are, are all my true friends' names.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  My parents' names. It was just, it was a memoir in a lot of ways, which was, for me, was so much fun to write because, you know, my parents had been gone for quite a while, but, you know, for the months that I spent on the book, they were

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, you bring them back.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  And I was in my old childhood bedroom after graduating, waiting to, to get married. And, and all my friends, you know, when I was writing about younger days, that we were still, you know, the Hanson Road Boys, we were all just still scattered around the neighborhood.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I loved that.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  Instead of the country. And, and I'm doing an event soon and all the Hanson Road Boys are coming.

• 20:54Speaker 01

  Oh, hell yeah. That's awesome.

• 20:56Speaker 02

  I actually advertised it. I'm like, the Hanson Road Boys will be there.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Oh, of course you should.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  And people are going to recognize them as half of the photos.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  Um, but the, the neat thing is, is I told them, I said, you're going to be signing probably more books than I am. Because people for years have said, I want to meet him. It's so and so real. So.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  The most disappointment from the first book was that Carly Albright wasn't real.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  My, my sidekick.

• 21:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  And she's, you know, she's this very strong willed woman, very wise and kind of keeps me straight, doesn't put up with my shit.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  So it's Kara.

• 21:26Speaker 02

  Essentially Kara. And I grew up with three older sisters.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 21:29Speaker 02

  So I'm like, there you go. That's, that's how, you know.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Like an amalgamation of everybody.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I knew like fashion stuff and I, you know, I listened to like the Bay City rollers and the Bee Gees way before everybody else because I had sisters.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:42Speaker 02

  You know, um, and I also knew, you know, Kara will say bullshit, but I also knew the proper way to treat the female.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Older sisters will teach you. They absolutely will, yeah.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  So, but, but yeah, I, that was the, the fun of the book is, is I got to write about everybody and, and they all really, people always say that, were they okay with it? I'm like, yeah, of course I okay.

• 22:06Speaker 01

  Oh, they were probably psyched.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Well, they're still mad about the pictures. They, I still, I want, I want more of a close up in the next one. You can't see my face. I, no kidding. I'm like,

• 22:15Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  The whole thing, everyone loved it except the, the lovely woman to my left, Kara, my wife who loathed it. She's very behind the scenes and, uh, just, you know, she doesn't even like, like if I post pictures on Facebook, I have to get her written approval pretty much.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  She just doesn't, you know, she's not into that, which is fine, but she hated being written about. I'm just like, it's the only way I know how to tell the story. I got away with it for the first book.

• 22:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  She was young and it was so far in the past, but then I had to break it to her that the second book was set in modern day.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Hey, you're like, you're in this a lot.

• 22:47Speaker 02

  And you're in this.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Like you're a big part. Kara's like, let me read it.

• 22:51Speaker 02

  Yes. And she's just like, well, I'm not going to read it, you know, that way when people at signings and stuff ask me about it, I can just say, I haven't read it.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  You can say, I don't know. I actually don't know. I plead the fifth.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  And I'm like, but.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  I just live this life. I don't know.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  And I'm like, but, you know, I don't want to say a spoiler. I'm like, but you're integral to the plot in many ways. And I'm like, and you know, the first book I always say is like a love story to, to my hometown and youth.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:15Speaker 02

  And, and my family.

• 23:16Speaker 01

  And it feels that way.

• 23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I'm like, the second book is, is in many ways is a love story to Kara and me.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  It can feel that way.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  And, and, and just my place in the world and how she's helped me, you know, move through it. And then I'm like, you know, the third book is kind of all of it, you know, it brings the friends back into it. It, Kara's a huge part. My sons are more of a part of it.

• 23:35Speaker 01

  I loved that. It like built upon itself. I loved that.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it was, it, again, it was very natural. I mean, that's the plus of writing these books is they are a lot of fun to write, even though I'm writing about myself because I don't, I, you know, I would always tease them. I'm like, yeah, I just wrote a scene in which I, you know, ran 10 miles and then I washed the car and I, and I power washed the siding and they're looking at me.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  They're like, who did that? They're like, who's that? Yeah.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I'm like, I'm pretty much, you know, a Navy SEAL in this book. And they're like, people are going to know that you actually look at your steps on your phone and you're happy when it's like, you know, I walked 600 steps today.

• 24:12Speaker 01

  It's very relatable. It really is.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  And I would threaten Kara. She'd be like, you know, her usual sassy self. And I'd be like, you know what? I think I'm going to go upstairs and write a love scene.

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Real quick.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  I'm going to write a love scene. And she'd be like, yeah, well, you're not, you know.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Like it'll be a work of fiction.

• 24:30Speaker 02

  But again, you know, uh, to, to look back at particularly the first book and be like, all those things happened, except for the murders.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:38Speaker 02

  And some people are still disappointed that the murders didn't happen. I'm like, I'm like.

• 24:42Speaker 01

  You're like, sorry about that, I guess.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  I'm like, I know you don't mean that.

• 24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. You're like, sorry.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  I get it, but.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Sorry, young girls weren't murdered. People say crazy things. You never know.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:51Speaker 02

  That was a really long winded way of answering that. Yeah. The boogeyman has always been a part of my life and, you know, we had, we had our haunted house. We had the Myers house. We had our, our legends. There was definitely a good side of the tracks and a bad side of the tracks and the whole thing. And, uh, and we just, you know, I was always aware of the fact that, and even before I read Stephen King, but especially after I read Salem's Lot at an early age and some of those others.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  That was one of my first.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  And I was surrounded by books, you know, the youngest of five kids, my parents both read. So I was reading like Sydney Sheldon because of my sisters and like reading the sex scenes out loud to my friends.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  And being like, oh my God.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Hero in that regard.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  But reading Salem's Lot and a lot of those small town novels, it really made it easy to imagine, you know, the innocence of walking home from sledding at night, but the lights are on in the houses and it, it was first for a warped mind like me, it was really easy to take that next step and be like, you know, there's stuff going on behind these.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 02

  Windows that we know nothing about.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And it can be anything.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. And then you get introduced to serial killers.

• 25:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:57Speaker 02

  And, and, you know, uh, that kind of thing. And you're just like, you don't even have to have suspend the belief of vampires and all those other things.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Oh, no, not at all.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  I was fine with because I believed in all of them.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  But people, yeah. The idea that you could be standing in line at 7-Eleven to get a slurpee and the guy behind you could have killed six people rocked my world.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  I'm constantly still thinking of that.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  At all times. Oh, I think of that. Yeah. Yeah. Grocery shopping. I'm like, who's a murderer? Yeah. I'm like, somebody could be. Somebody's done some weird shit. Yeah. And odds are, you know. Odds are someone's done. That many people in a building. Yeah.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  You go to a concert and two people there are killed.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Which is horrifying. Yeah, it is. Cause we're just like living among them. Just whatever. And I think that's why like small, like you do, cause obviously you grew up in that town. So it's like, you did like the small town vibe so well. And I feel like it lends itself really well to adding something so nefarious, like murder into it. And why do you think like it works so well to add like murder into a small town?

• 26:58Speaker 02

  I just think it's the, it's, you know, the, the first book for me was about that loss of innocence, not only in myself, but in my, you know, I described, that's the reason I opened the book with so much history about the place.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Is because I think for a lot of people, particularly when you're younger, it's your safe place.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:14Speaker 02

  It, it's like, it's, it's the expansion of your home. That's why they say home invasions are so traumatic.

• 27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Because if you're not safe here, where the hell is?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's your bubble.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  So you can expand that and, you know, to the, you know, the wagon wheel of your town. And when you're young, it's like, that's your world.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  That's the boundaries.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  You know, I, you know, when I was that age, you know, hell, I didn't know anything about Dover, Delaware. It was an hour and a half away.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  If my world ended at the train tracks.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, nothing besides that.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  Until you get your license and even then a little bit after that. But, so I, I think it's just that contrast of this is supposed to be where you're safe. And I think that applies to, you know, you, you're a young couple. You move into this suburb, you, you, you, you know, you bring your newborn.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  The thing you're supposed to be most nervous about is strapping your baby in a car seat and driving to the drugstore and that, that's terrifying in itself.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Really scary. Yeah.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Yes. Kara would come home from, you know, work some days and I'd, you know, the baby, poor Billy would have like three onesies on because I forgot to take the other ones off after I changed the diaper and I put a new one on. And she's just like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I was nervous.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think he's cold.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  How can I be trusted to have a baby? You know, I, I, you know, I'm still shoving chocolate in my face at night when I should be going to sleep and I'm like, well, you can't sleep because you have so much sugar in you, dummy.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  You're like, ah, why am I an adult?

• 28:31Speaker 02

  I'm like, but I'm a dad.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  I'm cosplaying as an adult, okay? That was, oh, that was me.

• 28:36Speaker 02

  We did that a lot. How did this happen?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Literally me and my husband had twins first, like right out the gate.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  And so the second they were born, both of us were like, what have we done? Like, oh my God, we have to keep them alive. This is scary. Yeah.

• 28:51Speaker 02

  Oh my God.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  And one of them was very, very tiny. Oh, she's the tiniest. She was like, she was like five pounds when she was born. So she was like a little, little gomor. And putting her in the car seat, we were like, and I remember the nurses come in and they like do the thing where they're like, you have to put them in the car seat and you have to know how, and they can't tell you how to do it. You're just, and I was like, but I didn't study for this test. Like, I don't know. And we were like so scared of putting this tiny little thing in there. They're so fragile.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  I won't touch friends and, you know, their babies until they get to a certain age.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 29:20Speaker 02

  I'm terrified.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I did it with my own. I go to your property, okay?

• 29:23Speaker 02

  I see strangers like in the grocery store park and I'm like, support the neck, support the neck.

• 29:27Speaker 01

  You're not doing it right.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  You know?

• 29:29Speaker 01

  It's killing over. It's so scary.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  And it informed everything. It informed my work back then. All of a sudden, everything I was writing about was about the fragility of the world around us. Um, so I think that that's my, my answer for the small town thing is it's just supposed to be, all you're supposed to be worried about is your baby in the car seat and getting home in time to watch, uh, you know, I'm going to date myself, but you know, Beverly Hills, nine and two, one, oh, whatever it was back in the day.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 29:56Speaker 02

  And instead, you know, there are neighborhood watch groups and they're talking about doing a curfew and there's cops everywhere and you're just like, this shouldn't be happening.

• 30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like I should be able to walk down the street and not worry.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Which, you know, in my youth I could, you know, we'd spend the night with each other's, at each other's houses and we snuck out windows at midnight. And we went down to 7-Eleven and we got slurpees and, and the whole thing. I mean, my friends love telling stories about, about that and including the one where we all played poker. And then my buddy won all of our money. When he was sleeping, we took a flashlight and tweezers and we opened his pocket. We flashed the flashlight and then stole all his money that he had won from us. Went to 7-Eleven, he got to the counter, had all this stuff on the counter and no money to pay for it. Boyhood.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  We were demons.

• 30:41Speaker 01

  That's friendship.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. He still tells that story. But yeah, we did those things and it was safe.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  You know, and we were scared. I mean, my, again, my dumb ass was probably talking about the boogeyman.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  Or what, you know, I heard that, you know, the rubber van man, which I think the legend was that he only came out in the daytime, which, which was weird, but I, you know, I'm sure I was like, my sister told him, told me that they've started seeing them at night now.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Oh, of course.

• 31:05Speaker 02

  So, you know, we're scared to death, of course.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  We can't have a safe time.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  But again, it was like, it was, you know, it was more like riding a roller coaster. It's like you were scared, but somewhere in the back of your mind, you knew you were going to be okay. You were going to put your head down on your own pillow.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  And it's fun to be scared.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  It's like a horror movie or going to a haunted house. You're like, I'm gonna get the feeling, but like, I know I'm okay here.

• 31:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Even though I, as soon as I get in the haunted house, I'm like, I'm going to die.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Cause that's what happened in Fun House and so.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  No, we say that every time we enter any kind of haunted house. We're like, what if this is the one where the person actually wants to kill us all?

• 31:35Speaker 01

  It's the chainsaw.

• 31:36Speaker 03

  The chainsaws.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Anytime they chase you out of those places with a chainsaw, I'm like, what if this is that one time? That they keep the chain on and this is just like.

• 31:44Speaker 03

  And John always thinks we're crazy, but we're like, what if?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  You know?

• 31:47Speaker 02

  That's, that's it. I mean, that's why I love Stephen King, you know, he's still, you know, he's still, he's almost 80 and he's still, I know he still believes in the hand that's going to creep out from under your bed.

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  Oh, I do too.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  You don't hang that, you don't hang your bare leg over it.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  No.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  You get in as quick as you can. You put the blankets on.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  You jump in that bed.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  The blankets are pretty magic.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 32:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. Now with Killing the Boogeyman coming out so soon, do you suggest that readers read your first two books beforehand? And if the answer is yes, is there anything in particular they should pay close attention to?

• 32:19Speaker 02

  Um, you know, I, I think they should. I mean, I've had people ask me that. And, and again, my editor was very careful in that, you know, Richie, you need to write these books that they can be standalone. And that's why there's like, in Becoming the Boogeyman, the, the, it's not labeled an introduction, but it opens with a series of newspaper and magazine and online articles, which give you the whole synopsis of the first book.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  So you know who Joshua Gallagher is going in, you know, who I am, you know, that I've had a movie made from this, a book published, the whole thing.

• 32:49Speaker 02

  So yeah, absolutely possible to read it and, and we tried to do the same thing with the third book.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  But I just feel like, just like I, I, I did, you know, that heavy dump of town history in the first book, which I worried about, and some readers did say, they're like, man, the first book I loved it, but it wasn't until I got to page like 60, it picked up. And I'm like, I get that, but I really wanted you to know that town as well as you knew me.

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, you have to set it up.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Because that's what it's all about.

• 33:13Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 33:14Speaker 02

  Um, and yeah, so I, I feel like learning, you know, I, I feel like there is a progression to the story.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  It's not, it's not necessarily, you know, you know, critical, but I feel like the layers are there.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  Makes sense.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  And I think I, I enjoyed reading each one, like as we went, cause I think it does really give you like, by the time you get to the third book, you feel like you know, like the reader knows you and knows like your family and your friends and the town so well.

• 33:42Speaker 03

  In the story.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  That you're so invested in the third one at like seeing where this goes. And you start in Joshua Gallagher, you start.

• 33:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 01

  You get that like builds.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, you're either gonna be sick of me by the end of the third book, or you're gonna be like, I hope there's a fourth.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  And it might be both. You might be like sick of me like, ah, but I hope there's a fourth and I hope they kill Richard.

• 34:02Speaker 02

  So, yeah, who knows? But.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:05Speaker 02

  But yeah, I, I would like them to read them all, but.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:08Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm appreciative of anyone who picks up any of my books.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  I'm still that guy at the signing that like, I always say it, I'm like, I still feel like I'm that little kid on Hanson Road selling cups of lemonade.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. People are coming.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like, people are buying my books.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm constantly in a state of that.

• 34:22Speaker 03

  Same thing.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Like constantly. When people are like, I've read all three. I'm like, you've read all three?

• 34:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then you walk out and you're like, how lucky am I?

• 34:29Speaker 01

  I know.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Because you probably grew up like me with the books in your pocket, in your purse or your bag.

• 34:34Speaker 01

  And it's just like. Constantly like, what?

• 34:37Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like, what are you talking about? It's the same thing. Like, people say, well, what it was like to collaborate with, with Stephen King? And I'm just like, my word's never gonna change. It was ridiculous.

• 34:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I can imagine.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  It was, it was, you take a normal, everyday, constant reader of his and you say, hey, come over and sit next to me at the typewriter and let's have some fun.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 34:56Speaker 02

  It's like, what do you mean? I'm gonna write about Castle Rock and I'm gonna write about dairy and.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  I, I think I would fall apart. Well, I guess I would just fall, just because he was like my introduction into horror and.

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Only so many's people, so many people's introduction.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  And it's like, I've read every single, like every time he releases a new book, I'm like, yoink. Like, I don't even need to look. It's just, I'm reading that.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  Well, at some point I started getting them ahead of time because of our friendship, you know, I would get an arc or sometimes even cooler, I would get, you know, he emailed me the manuscript.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Six months before the art came out or whatever, which is, was the case with Other Worlds, the new one, um, which is amazing and comes out the same day as Killing the Boogeyman. But yeah, I, I, I just, you know, to this day, I'm just like, anytime a new book comes out, it doesn't matter if I've read it. I still want to go to Target or Barnes and Noble or wherever it is, or my indie and buy the new book.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 02

  Cause I've done it my whole life.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 03

  So fun.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  You gotta have it.

• 35:48Speaker 02

  It's like, yeah, it's, it doesn't matter if we're like, you know, we'll sell his new book. So we usually sell a 1,500, 2,000 copies or something. So they're all in the warehouse.

• 35:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:57Speaker 02

  But I still want to buy my copy.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  It's a rite of passage for me.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  And, uh.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  And honestly, that's how I felt, even with your books that you like Widow's Point, I scream about that book to everybody who was. Cause I genuinely scared the shit out of me. I was like, this is a scary ass book, especially coming up on Halloween. I was like, everybody read that book. It's so good.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  It's so fun.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Got, actually got, got highlighted by so many readers as like, you know, one of the scariest books.

• 36:26Speaker 01

  So scary.

• 36:27Speaker 02

  Which made me so happy because Billy and I knew going in, we're like, when we wrote the novella version of that, I, I remember telling Billy at some, at some point, I said, this is our everything but the kitchen sink.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  And he tried to throw in the kitchen sink. He loves to tell that story. He's like, dad had to rein me in.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  Because at the end, you know, I did something and then he's like, okay, remember how we talked about it's everything but the kitchen sink? You just threw it in. We can't. So, so then with the novel, we were able to expand on it and it's just, you know, it's just all the, during our signing tour, I kept referring to it as, as Scooby Doo for grownups.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Oh, it literally is. It's so fun.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  And at some point I said, my publisher might not like hearing that. You know, my publisher might be like.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Does it mean to them what it means to me?

• 37:09Speaker 03

  I think to so many people it would though.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  We had a van, we had, the one guy was like shaggy, he had long hair and he was a stoner and.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  Oh, I haven't read that yet, but I'm absolutely going to.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  I was like, you have to.

• 37:18Speaker 03

  I'm sold on Scooby Doo for adults.

• 37:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's found footage and, and.

• 37:22Speaker 03

  I love found footage.

• 37:23Speaker 02

  So it's cool in that regard, but it, it, that even was a happy accident. People are like, you guys are brilliant. And I'm like, no.

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Oh, so good.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  We really aren't. It's just, that was the only way we knew how to tell the story and we started playing with camera angles and different.

• 37:35Speaker 01

  That was the coolest part.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  I'm like, we had no idea what we were doing until the reviewers pointed it out, honestly.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  And there's so much subtlety in that book that's scary too.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  We tried to do that.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Like there was a lot of like how Blair Witch is so scary because it's so, and even Paranormal Activity, like you're not even seeing everything. It's just the vibes are like, oh, like that's, and there was.

• 37:54Speaker 02

  And then sometimes you're seeing something, you don't know whether you believe it or not, because the way we described it shouldn't be possible. But then again, it's the supernatural, which is, there are no rules.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it felt real because it wasn't always over the top.

• 38:06Speaker 03

  Right.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Like there were moments in that book that you were just like, ooh, that thing moved and that's weird.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  Oh, that's so spooky.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Like, yeah.

• 38:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. What inspired you guys to work together? Like, did you just say one day, like, we have to write a book together?

• 38:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know what? We always wanted, I mean, he, you know, he was a little weirdo. God bless him.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  He would sit on my lap and, and we would get, we would have one of those like 1499 giant coffee table glossy books from the bargain bin at, uh, Barnes and Noble. Like on the, the unexplained. And we would sit there for three hours flipping through it.

• 38:38Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  And, and he was the one begging to, he still hasn't forgiven me for letting him watch, uh, Signs, um, and not warning him ahead of time about.

• 38:47Speaker 01

  That one scene.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  And the corns.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 03

  The birthday party.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Those two, he, he had, I remember he crawled, he was, he was young enough. He was probably 10. I don't know. I'm bad dad, I guess.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  He, he crawled up on the top of the sofa and was watching it laying down over my shoulder.

• 39:04Speaker 03

  You're like, I don't know. I didn't know you were there.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  It's like, I'm safe here.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Yes. But he still doesn't forgive me. His, his first R rated was, uh, Silver Bullet.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 39:12Speaker 02

  That was New Year's Eve once. We're like, all right, we're just gonna do it.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  It's time.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  Of course, his younger brother, who was four years younger, got to, you know, hitchhike along.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Always get it early.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  But he wasn't even scared. So.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's what my kids got, cause my kids are, my twins are 10 and my youngest just turned seven.

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Ah.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  And my twins really wanted to watch, uh, Return to Oz. And I was like, that was like one of my first horror movies.

• 39:35Speaker 03

  It is a horror movie.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Cause it's a scary movie.

• 39:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is gonna scare the crap out of you. It didn't scare them at all. And even like my, I think she was maybe five or six when she watched it, cause she just got to tag along.

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Unfazed.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Unfazed.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Oh, I love it.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  And now I'm like, what else can I show?

• 39:50Speaker 03

  Even Coraline.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  Yes. Welcome to my world. Challenge accepted.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  I was like, all right.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  You know, you shouldn't be, but.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I thought Coraline might get them.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  I thought Coraline was gonna fuck them up and they were like, this is great.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, they loved it.

• 40:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:01Speaker 02

  Show them like a really old one, like Chitty Chitty Bang Bang, cause when the killer comes out with that net.

• 40:06Speaker 01

  That's what he's gonna tell.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Those are the things I grew up on, like the original Wizard of Oz, which back then was, you know, must see TV. It came on once a year.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  Like the Christmas special.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  You couldn't miss, you like, you know, you like, put it on the calendar. I gotta be in the West Rudolph.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 02

  Same thing with Wizard of Oz. It's, you know, I just remember, you know, the flying monkeys and the haunted forest.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:27Speaker 02

  And my parents saying, you know, next year, we're not gonna let you watch it, cause you had nightmares for a month. By then they would forget, um, you know, the youngest of five kids, they were worn down.

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  But Chitty Chitty Bang Bang.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 40:39Speaker 02

  And that child napper with the pointy nose and the net.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Oh, terrifying.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 40:42Speaker 01

  If that doesn't scare you, come watch it.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, that'll mess you up.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:46Speaker 03

  It's true.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  They really want to see Jurassic Park and even that, I'm like.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  Oh, Jurassic Park is, but then again, they're so, they might work out.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  And they're logical and they're like, well, dinosaurs aren't around anymore. Like, I'm not worried about a T-Rex coming.

• 40:57Speaker 03

  See, that one messes you up though, cause somebody could bring them back.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  I know. It's like, science.

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm giving somebody already has, they're on some island.

• 41:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's somewhere. We're just waiting.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  What's funny is Jurassic Park for me, because I was so wide eyed with wonder.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  I, I was, you know, I'm sure I'm, it, it was more suspenseful for me than, than.

• 41:17Speaker 01

  Than actually scary.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  Cause I was too busy going, you know, probably withdrawal coming, dinosaurs.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Eating ice cream, it's all over my shirt. Dinosaurs are real. I knew it.

• 41:29Speaker 03

  We all go through that phase, right?

• 41:30Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  I'm still in it unfortunately.

• 41:32Speaker 03

  My husband's still in that phase too. I get it.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  We'll get there.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  I would love to go back to your trilogy for a second. Specifically, I'd love to talk about the titles, Tracing, Becoming and Killing. When did you know that those verbs were gonna be kind of like the arc for your stories?

• 41:46Speaker 02

  When Ed told me.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Again, by the end of this interview, you'll figure out that, you know, I would readily admit, I'm not as smart as some of the reviewers reviewers think I am.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Titles are hard.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  This was called The Boogeyman.

• 41:57Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 41:58Speaker 02

  And I always knew I wanted to write a story or a book, preferably a book. The two titles I always had in my back pocket that I wanted to one day have novels. The Boogeyman and the altar.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  Ooh.

• 42:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I always pictured an altar in the woods.

• 42:12Speaker 03

  Oh, I like the altar.

• 42:13Speaker 01

  I like that a lot.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so one day.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  One day.

• 42:16Speaker 03

  I'm waiting for that.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  But yeah, he thought we definitely need, you know, more. And chasing was the first thing he came up with, and I was like that right on.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  And then the second one, I just had working title.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  And we discussed it. I mean, maybe give myself a little credit. Maybe I was like, maybe I spit that title out when we were kind of blue skying it. I don't remember, but I'm pretty sure it was Ed. And then I will give, I did say Killing the Boogeyman.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 42:42Speaker 02

  So.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Perfect.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Perfect, I think.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:44Speaker 01

  Titles are hard.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  I'm not great at titles.

• 42:47Speaker 03

  Titles are hard, and I didn't realize, like, not every author comes up with their title necessarily.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  A lot of times you have a title and you're like, this is the title, and they're like,

• 42:54Speaker 03

  They're like, it's actually not.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:56Speaker 02

  It's a title, all right, just not a good one.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're like, that's a word, for sure.

• 43:00Speaker 03

  Well, then it comes down to like, marketing and that kind of thing, too, I'm sure. So there's a lot that goes into it.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  And sometimes you get ideas for titles that you're like, what? Like, there was several ideas that I got at one point that I was like, are you punking?

• 43:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember going through some of them, and I was like, not that one.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  I read them out loud, I was like, this is real?

• 43:19Speaker 02

  Did I mean this? Did my kids scribble that out in my handwriting?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  What's going on right now?

• 43:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I'm pleased with the titles.

• 43:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're great.

• 43:29Speaker 02

  It's gonna be neat to see all three next to each other in the book.

• 43:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is cool.

• 43:32Speaker 02

  It's been a journey and, and I, you know, I love the fact that, that when I'm gone, you know, my kids and their kids can kind of read these stories and be like, yeah, that was the old guy, you know? My kids, when they read Chasing the Boogeyman, I'll never forget it because they've heard all my stories, including some of the gross ones that are in there. Which my sister, like, immediately texted me and said, did this really happen? And I'm like, yes. And they're like, oh, my God, I never thought Brian and Craig would do that. I'm like, all the time.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  You have no idea.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  Everyone knew about me throwing stuff at cars that, you know, that I talk about in there because it's like, yeah, I'm genuinely surprised I didn't get sent to reform school for whatever reason. It was like, if there was an object on the ground and there was a moving vehicle, I wanted to.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  It was happening.

• 44:13Speaker 03

  So many boys go through that phase, I think.

• 44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:15Speaker 02

  My kids never got to because nowadays you get shot.

• 44:18Speaker 03

  Well, now you can, yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  But I've told Cara, I'm like, one day I just want to take them out. Just let them go for it. A stretch of property, and there's so many trees and there's fences, and I'm like, there's hiding places.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  And they're like, but bullets, she's like, but bullets go through fences. And I'm like, you're right.

• 44:30Speaker 03

  Like, that's really valid.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  Because we can get arrested. I don't care about that.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  I'll just be honest. I'm like, we just, I had to give them that experience.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Particularly Billy came back and he's like, you and your friends were like, a group of street urchins. Just roam the town.

• 44:44Speaker 03

  Menaces.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  I'm like, that's what it was like.

• 44:46Speaker 03

  You're like, you have no idea. It was awesome. It was marvelous.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  No, no cell phones. It was at the dawning age of computers. We only had one guy, Jimmy Cavanaugh, my buddy, who, who had an early Commodore 64.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  The big chunky computers.

• 45:02Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  And it was like, green screens.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:04Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 45:05Speaker 02

  We would look through his bedroom window and he'd be playing like, he'd be playing Zelda.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  And then like, I think it was like the Oregon Trail or something.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  He would describe it to us how cool it was, and we'd be like, shut up.

• 45:15Speaker 03

  Dying of distant memory.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  We're playing wiffle ball, or, you know, we're gonna go bomb cars.

• 45:18Speaker 03

  Like, come outside, nerd.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Yes. Yes.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Which is so much better.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it's true.

• 45:24Speaker 01

  Because I had a neighbor whose dad would, the way that he would get her home, and she was like, down the street, he would do this crazy whistle that went all the way down the street. And if he needed her, he would do that whistle, and she would just go get him and then come back.

• 45:39Speaker 03

  See, and that's so of that time.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, because there was no phone to call or anything else to call.

• 45:43Speaker 03

  Parents just text you.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  I think I wrote about, I might not have written about it, it might have been just in my head, but my, the guys I just mentioned, Brian and Craig Anderson, their dad, Mr. Fred, would whistle.

• 45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, he did that crazy like, whir.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  And he was super strict. And it didn't matter if we were, like, if we were in the middle of a wiffle ball game, he could be in the middle of his pitching motion. If he heard that whistle, he dropped the ball and took off running.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  You gotta go.

• 46:06Speaker 02

  He couldn't be convinced because, you know, he's more scared of his dad than he was of us being mad at him because he left in the middle of the game.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 46:12Speaker 02

  Or the middle of Monopoly, or whatever it was we were doing. But as soon as he heard that whistle, and that, it's just neat that you said that because that was the other thing I learned is, at some point, I was a little nervous before Chasing came out because I thought, who's gonna care about me? And this, it's, I said, it's just this campfire story, essentially about the boogeyman.

• 46:32Speaker 03

  Right.

• 46:32Speaker 02

  And, and my friends, and it had all this buzz ahead of time. And I'm like, I got nervous, which I never do. I'm just like, they're either gonna like it or they're not.

• 46:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 02

  But I thought, it's such a small intimate story, you know, maybe, oh, boy, maybe they're all in for a disappointment. And, but what I found, and a really valuable lesson I learned right away, was that it was never about me in the first place. It was about how they related to it.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:56Speaker 02

  So they, all the people who had that whistler, or all the people who, who had friends who they jumped ramps with,

• 47:04Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  from plywood that they got at the dump, or they stole from a construction site.

• 47:08Speaker 03

  Yep, yep.

• 47:09Speaker 02

  You know, the, just all those little, I got more emails and, and posts about what it was like to pop tar bubbles on the road.

• 47:17Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  On a summer day. From people, and some of them were like, so heartfelt. They're just like, it was one of my favorite memories of being a child, and somehow I forgot it.

• 47:27Speaker 03

  And it wasn't a unique experience. Yeah.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  So it was, it was neat as a writer to realize, hey, dummy, it was never about you in the first place, even though the character is named after you. It was just about finding those people who, who, who share those experiences and could relate instantly.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, everybody's so nostalgic for that time right now, I think.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Especially now.

• 47:48Speaker 03

  So it's great timing.

• 47:50Speaker 01

  I, I want simpler times so badly.

• 47:52Speaker 03

  I didn't even have it, and I'm nostalgic for it. Like, you talk about your childhood and like, just like, not having phones and not having computers. I wish I had grown up like that.

• 48:00Speaker 01

  Simpler time.

• 48:01Speaker 03

  You know?

• 48:01Speaker 01

  It really was.

• 48:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  I mean, you found your friends by knocking on their doors or sitting on the corner waiting for them to find you.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  And I feel like you had to like, you had to grow that, like, extra, like, there was this developmental thing of calling someone's house and having to talk to their parents.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  See, I did go through that.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  It's like, that was like, such a developmental thing that kids now are not going through. Like, they don't have to have that, like, social awareness to, like, talk to parents.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  And be like, hi, Mr. Turner.

• 48:28Speaker 03

  It's always so embarrassing.

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Like, are they home? And that person being like, oh, yeah, how's school? Got like, asking you questions and having to answer it. Or like, it's just, I'm like, I want that back.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  I'm at that weird age where like, I remember some of that and like, had some of that, but then I also kind of grew up as the internet was like, becoming more of a thing, you know?

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Unfortunately, everything that the old people told us when we were really young.

• 48:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Was true.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  Unfortunately.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  It's like, the whole thing about how it's gonna, it's gonna pass in a blink.

• 48:56Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  And I mean, it's like, now I tell people that with kids, because I'm just like, you know, our youngest went to UVA back in 2021. And, you know, he played lacrosse, so it was just, it was a really cool experience, and it was over in a blink.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:11Speaker 02

  We, we still talk about, you know, how we felt the first time he came out, and we're just like, this was his dream come true. So as his parents, you know, you're fighting back tears.

• 49:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  And then how, wow, we've got four years of this, and then how we blinked, and it's been done for a year and a half.

• 49:24Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 49:25Speaker 02

  So it's like, I tell everyone with kids that, and, and the ones who said, you know, you're gonna long for the simplicity of this one day and all that, and you're gonna, you know, because, you know, you're bitching about having to mow the lawn and, you know, whatever.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  The mundane.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, what I would give to be out there mowing the lawn while my dad was in the garage working on the car and have my mom come out and give me a glass of lemonade.

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, yeah.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  It's like, and that's, you know, I write about that stuff all the time now because that's how I can remember.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Right. It's that, like, that whole, like, saying of the days are long, but the years are short with kids, is the truest thing I have ever heard. And I remember hearing it and being like, okay. And now I'm like, now they're gonna be 11, and they just, and the youngest just turned seven, and I'm like, but you were a squishy little baby.

• 50:08Speaker 03

  It does go fast. I feel that way even as their aunt. I'm like, stop it. Like, freeze.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  And it, and it's like, some days with kids, you're just like, okay, like, this day is never ending. This day is 48 hours long, and that's crazy. But then it's like, all of a sudden, they're 10, and you're just like, where did that go?

• 50:24Speaker 02

  And now, all of a sudden.

• 50:25Speaker 01

  And then all of a sudden, they're gonna be in high school, and they're gonna be in college, and I'm like,

• 50:29Speaker 02

  I went like a baby when I dropped off Billy at college. Actually, I cried for like, two weeks ahead of time.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, just anticipating.

• 50:36Speaker 02

  Well, I'd see him like, sitting at the kitchen island doing his homework, and I'd just be like, how's he gonna do his homework next year? He's a freshman in college, and we're not here.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  And I can't help him. That's so sweet.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  And to say Billy's really late, you should go to bed and finish it in the morning. And I'm just like.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  You just call him at that time. You're like, do you need anything? Do you have a snack?

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Well, no, because then they get there and they're like, you know, they only, Billy only texted me when, when he was in the library, supposed to be doing like a paper.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  He would, I would get a bunch of texts. I'm like, are you in the library?

• 51:03Speaker 01

  Are you supposed to be writing your papers?

• 51:05Speaker 02

  That's, that's how we actually started writing is one of those times from the library. He's like, we should write something together.

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so cool.

• 51:11Speaker 02

  And I was like, let's just do something old fashioned. That's where it was point. We're like, let's do a ghost story and.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  Oh, that must be so cool. Yeah, that's rad.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Oh, it's the best thing in the world.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  That's like the dream.

• 51:19Speaker 02

  People always say, what's your favorite? And for a while it was, well, I wrote with Stephen King, who is like my literary father and.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right.

• 51:26Speaker 02

  You know, how's you, how are you going to surpass that? And then I wrote with my knucklehead son.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  And we, you know, people are like, well, the father, son dynamic, did you fight? No, I'm like, you know, we really didn't.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 51:37Speaker 02

  He, the only time, he got grumpy when he was hungry. So I would know he was hungry.

• 51:41Speaker 01

  That's valid.

• 51:41Speaker 02

  Billy go eat.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 02

  And he got grumpy at me sometimes because of my technical ignorance, like the scroll bar and things.

• 51:48Speaker 01

  Which that's just bound to happen, you know?

• 51:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I was like the file master. I had to control the final file.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:53Speaker 02

  At all times. I'm like.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Well, you've been through this. Yeah.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if something goes wrong, you're like, at least I know it was me. And then I don't have to get mad at you. Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  And then editing, you know, how it's, you've got the comments in the border and all this. So you got to click buttons into all this stuff. And I'm just like, can't we just print it out and use a pen?

• 52:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's literally. Can you just redline this?

• 52:11Speaker 02

  Yes. I think I did actually do that with this.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  Really?

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. God bless them for, for, the, the whole crew for working with me. Cause yeah, I'm, I'm a dinosaur and.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  You gotta find what works though. Honestly, I'm the same way. Like the amount of times, like my husband's like, oh, here we go. Cause he'll walk in the room and I've printed out all the chapters. Yeah. And I have like Post-it notes on all of them and I just am physically moving things around. Cause I can't do it on a screen. It doesn't make sense to me. Like my brain doesn't work that way.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I see writers who have like the big computer setups.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I can't.

• 52:41Speaker 02

  With like multiple screens and they're shifting scenes back and forth. And I'm like, are you insane?

• 52:46Speaker 01

  Move that over here.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  Or it won't make sense.

• 52:48Speaker 02

  I'm happy with this thing. Don't touch it.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Don't move it.

• 52:51Speaker 01

  I'm not moving that over. I've heard you say that so many times. Like, don't touch it. Yeah. Don't touch that.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it. It's, it's, I, I still feel like, you know, we're, we're building this house of cards.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:00Speaker 02

  I had to learn that for the rewriting process, that that is actually where a lot of the fun happens.

• 53:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  And where you kind of make yourself look smart.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  And a lot of times for me, not on purpose, because I'm like, I'm like, wait a minute. In the beginning I was terrified.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  I'm like, if I move one card, it's all.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Everything's gone. Yeah. That's how I, I still feel that way sometimes. Cause I'm like, well, I think this should shift later. And I'm like, but then none of this makes sense. And I'm like, yes, it does.

• 53:24Speaker 02

  Do you, when you get notes from your, you know, when you get the revisions back from your editor, do you still like have to go through stages? Like I go through the first stages. Oh, hell no.

• 53:34Speaker 01

  It's pissed.

• 53:35Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. See, see, she, Kara's had to put up with this through all the book.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:40Speaker 02

  And then by the next day, I'm like, and, and usually in addition to that, there's an email to my agent.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  Yep. That's already.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  And by the next day, I'm like, you know what? Like probably a fourth of these are really good.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  That's, this is literally me.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 53:56Speaker 02

  Next day it's up to 50.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Familiar.

• 53:58Speaker 02

  Next day's 50% and by the, by the end of the first week, I'm like, damn, he did a good job.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  That's literally by the end of the first week, I'm like, my editor is brilliant.

• 54:07Speaker 02

  Yes, the bomb.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  But in the beginning, I'm like, I hate them and I'm going to fuck them with my hands.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  No, I have no, I'm, you know, fortunately Ed knows, like if there's a hill that I'm willing to die on, who'll leave it alone?

• 54:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  You know, even if he really believes, because he's just wants me to have the best book that I.

• 54:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  I can possibly have that I'm happy with.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they're like, this is your story. Like I'm just here to help you.

• 54:29Speaker 02

  I can't imagine editors being other, otherwise, but I've heard stories.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  And I'm just like, you know, I know how lucky I am. He just sent me a picture of the first finished killing the boogeyman.

• 54:38Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  And that's what I said. I said, well, as always, thank you for everything. Cause you know, and, but yeah, it's, I, I had to ask you that.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  It's a learning curve.

• 54:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now I'm like rewriting, I, I, you know, I embrace it and I'm like, I'm going to make myself look good and they're going to make me look good. And then the copy editor is going to come make me look even better.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  That's the best part.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  The whole thing.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. We got a squad. The copy editor comes in and I'm like.

• 54:59Speaker 02

  I'm like, how did I not fill English?

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm like, oh, great.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  I'm like, what do you mean a semi colon? You know, why did I have three extra commas in this paragraph?

• 55:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. My favorite thing is they'll be like, I looked into this and this wasn't here in this year. And I'm like, yeah, sure. It wasn't. You're right. Get rid of it. Thank you for fixing that.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  And the once in a blue moon where you're actually right.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 02

  It's like, I'm like, I like have my own parade around the neighborhood.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I'm like, well, actually. You're like, gotcha. And here's the source for that.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  But I love that you get mad because I'm the same way. I'm just like, ha, it's not how dare they, um, I'm such a great writer. It's just like, it's like, what are they thinking? No.

• 55:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  I, I know how to tell this story.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  This is my story. I know how it goes. Yeah, it's vulnerable. I'm like, of course I want to describe this thing for four, four pages in a row. And everyone should get that. You don't have to. Like, that's not something you need to do.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love it. I'm going to go home feeling much better.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I text my agent.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  The whole way. Told you.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  My agent knows she's going to get a text mess. She's like, all right, so they're in. And I'm like, oh, good. And I'll open it and she knows within an hour. That's going to be a night. She's going to get a full page text message of me being like, and this, and that, and this. And then by the next day I'll be like, you know what? That wasn't that bad. She, she, they might be right about this. And she's like, yeah, I know. She's like, we do this every time, babe. Let's go.

• 56:19Speaker 02

  My agent told me that I'm always going to feel this way because I told her, I said, every time it's time to start a new book, I have no idea how.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:26Speaker 02

  And I, and I will tell my wife, long suffering wife, I was like, I don't know how to write a book. I'm like, I, I don't remember.

• 56:33Speaker 01

  I've never done this before.

• 56:34Speaker 02

  It just happens. And I'm like, and she, and I told my agent that, and she said, I hate to tell you, but you're going to be saying that after book 20 and after book 30. And it's just, you know, it's just your process.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  It's very daunting at first.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and I mean, and I don't need to get down much until I'm rolling.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's any good. I never do. And that's fine.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  It's the starting.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  Um, yeah. I mean, Harlan Coben, just last week was talking about the shitty first draft. And again, it made me feel so good. He's just like, you know, you never show your first draft to anyone.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 57:01Speaker 02

  You know, and I'm just like, ah, I felt like I had permission to, uh, I, I was like, well, am I hallucinating? That cat just.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  I was going to say, did my cat just move? That's.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  Oh, I saw one downstairs.

• 57:13Speaker 01

  Oh, I have three. I'm a cat lady.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  He's like, you're not allergic. I'm like, we have four dogs. I don't think I'm allergic to anything.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  I was going to say, I have three cats, a dog. We got a lot going on here.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Oh, well, my, my oldest son, yeah, is, well, he'll, he's moving out soon. We've convinced him to, I'm like, if you want to be a writer, you better hang out in the attic, you know, in law suite for a while, because you're going to need to save your money.

• 57:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, right?

• 57:33Speaker 02

  So, but he's at the end of that rope. Um, you know, so it's going to be like him going away to college again. I'm going to weep for a week.

• 57:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I would be the same way.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:43Speaker 02

  Anyway.

• 57:44Speaker 01

  Well, and speaking like just back to the boogeyman series, they, we talked about it. You use your real name, you as a character, your hometown, pieces of your actual life, your family, friends. Is there anything that you put in the books that unexpectedly felt like a little vulnerable afterwards?

• 58:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, quite a bit. Um, and even some of the make believe, like with chasing the boogeyman, the rule was, well, the merge didn't happen. So when I'm talking about my reactive, you know, um, scenes to these, I, I wanted to be as honest as I could. So knowing that, yes, I would be, you know, absolutely aghast at what was happening and, and, and terrified. Um, but I would also be intrigued because it was my world and it was here. Um, so I tried to be honest in a scene where I like went to one of the memorials and, you know, down the street further, there was a picture of, of one of the victims that someone had posted that had blown away.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  And I'm like, yeah, I probably would take it and put it in my pocket instead of, and that's creepy. But I was obsessed with what was going on. And I tried to justify it in my head. I'm like, well, look, if it was at the base of the memorial, I would have put it back up.

• 58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Talk to him. But it, but it was a half a block down the street. And I'm like, no, I took it.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Um, so there was those things, but yeah, I just, uh, I, I tried to be as honest as I could with, with all of it. And, um, yeah, I, I just, uh, and then, and now I forgot the, the original question. I do that, I do that at least once a panel. I'm like.

• 59:14Speaker 01

  I honestly do the same thing every single time I'm in conversation.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  I've learned, just say it. Just say it. Don't try to remember it and don't try to sound smart at that point. So, so what did you say again?

• 59:25Speaker 01

  If something's felt unexpectedly vulnerable.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. There were a couple of things where I, uh, the, and I've been questioning about them, whether they're honest or not. The, uh, the scene in chasing the boogeyman where I'm sledding.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  And all my friends have gone home early and you all know what it feels like, the hush of the falling snow and the glow of the house lights and the, just that, that feeling. Um, and I had the kind of revelation there that, that I was growing up. My friends were growing up and that not only because of what was happening now, but because of what was about to happen naturally as we got older, things were never going to be the same again.

• 1:00:05Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  And once we graduated, we were going to go our separate ways and we might not see each other again. And the world just felt so much bigger in that moment. And I did have that moment coming home from sledding, standing on the hill when everyone laughed early and the whole way home.

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  And I just remember it, I just remember it felt like the world cracked wide open.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:27Speaker 02

  Um, so that scene, and then the scene where shortly after we moved to town and my father and I walked up to the top of Bayberry and saw all the Christmas lights out in front of us. And I just felt that childlike wonder. I felt safe. I could smell my father's aftershave. I feel my hand in his. And I just felt like, again, the innocence and the safety of a small town.

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  And your parents. And yeah, I did a, I did a book club with like 35, 40 older women who, you know, they'll call you on your shit.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  No matter what. Um, and yeah, I had a very sweet old lady lift, raise her hand and just say, kind of give me the look, you know, and like, you were 15, you were 14, you weren't thinking those things. And I'm like, actually I was. Not with the hand in my dad's hand. They, you know, I was like six or seven then.

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  And she wasn't questioning that so much as she was kind of realizing that the life was never going to be the same.

• 1:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  We were going to be torn apart.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  Cause it does hit you. I think at that age too, I feel like that's such a real experience. Yeah.

• 1:01:30Speaker 02

  And I'm like, you know, I had those feelings like a lot. I, I think that's how I knew early on, because I was writing stories from the time I was like eight or nine.

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  Um, and I, I really. Was, you know, I wasn't submitting or anything, but I was, you know, I was writing a lot at that age. And I said, I had those feelings a lot. I, you know, I was in the moment, but I was always, there was always a part of me that was outside of the moment.

• 1:01:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  And my friends will tell you, they're like, we always knew it was your job. You were the one who was going to remember.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause you're the storyteller. You're the one that's gonna hold all the-

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  And my Billy feels the same way. And we've talked about how it's this weird responsibility.

• 1:02:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  You know, and in one of the Boogeyman books, my, my, my buddy Jimmy Cavendall comes home, lives in South Carolina, and we're sitting in our car across the street from the Myers Field. And there's a very real moment, and this didn't happen with Jimmy, but it's happened with others, where I feel such crushing disappointment because he doesn't remember.

• 1:02:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:28Speaker 02

  And it, it feels like this weird sort of betrayal because we were buddies. We, this was such an integral part of our life.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:35Speaker 02

  And you have this like unspoken promise that you'll never forget it.

• 1:02:38Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah.

• 1:02:39Speaker 02

  And I'm looking at the grown up and he forgot it. And I never forgot it for a minute.

• 1:02:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  It was actually part of who I am.

• 1:02:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's happened to everyone, I feel like.

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  I think so, definitely.

• 1:02:48Speaker 02

  So I wrote about that in there and, and, and I just, uh, yeah, I remember the day I wrote it. It was like such a downer. It affected the rest of my day.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. Cause you could feel the feeling again.

• 1:03:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 03

  It like resurrects it.

• 1:03:01Speaker 02

  Cause you're walking around feeling like something so special and you're thinking, it's this trivial little thing.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  Makes you feel silly.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  So, yeah. So, yeah, I put a lot of that stuff in there. And I, I know with the, uh, the snow scene, um, it is some, it had been something that I had told maybe two or three people about in my life, Kara, and you know, maybe my son or my sister or someone. And it was, it very felt, it very much felt like the, uh, the deer by the train track scene in Stand By Me.

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  Where Gordy's sitting on there and the more he woke up early and he says, you know, he saw this deer and it's this moment of beauty.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:03:38Speaker 02

  And he says, I've never told anyone or written about it until now. And I felt like every writer has those.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Speaker 02

  And I felt like I gave one up, but I felt like I had to.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  It was a good one to give up. I feel like, yeah. Cause I feel like a lot of people can relate to it.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  I think so.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And people said, they're like, man, I've never read a serial killer book with so much heart. And I'm just like, again, it was the only way I knew how to write.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:03:58Speaker 02

  So, um, but yeah, you feel a little weird because you are giving up a part of yourself and you're feeling vulnerable. And then you have some sweet old lady call you on it and you're like, I swear.

• 1:04:08Speaker 03

  Like, thanks for that lady.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Cause you feel weirdly vulnerable just writing a book anyways. Like even like my books have nothing to do with me. And I'm still like, like I just feel as soon as it gets put out into the world, you're like, I feel like you're weirdly reading my diary in a weird way. Like.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Well, it's something that you felt so, you felt so strongly about it to dedicate all this time to. And now you're gonna show it to everybody. And someone might think, you know, why'd you waste nine months writing that?

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  I would say writing a novel is like the ultimate, um, symbol of faith.

• 1:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  In yourself and what you're working on, the whole thing. Because, you know, people ask me about collaborating and I'm like, oh, it, it's really about trust.

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Oh, it has to be.

• 1:04:51Speaker 02

  And faith. And I'm like, but so is writing the book by yourself. Because you are, I mean, you're talking, I always say that to like students, whenever I talk to students, I'm like, you're giving a part of yourself to the world, even if it's all make believe.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it feels that way.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Each time.

• 1:05:05Speaker 03

  Definitely. I'm sure.

• 1:05:14Speaker 00

  Let's take a break to thank the sponsor of today's episode, Ashley. Your home is the setting for your life's most cherished moments, or book clubs. Multi-generational connections are at the core of the home, and it's not about having every detail perfectly designed. It's about creating a space where you can comfortably connect with friends, family, all of the above. And now is the time to write the newest chapter in your home's story. Ashley is dependable with a modern feel, as you can see, offering well-crafted, affordable pieces built to stand up to real life with great looks that are made to last. I am the biggest fan of Ashley. If you're looking at this with your eyes right now, my gorgeous green Revian

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  Lakes sofa and love seat is just, oh, chef's kiss. The gorgeous olive color and the fabric itself, the velvet feels so nice on your hand. And whenever I bring people up to the Pod Lab, they're like, honey, where is this furniture from? It's, it's giving upscale. It's giving class A. And I say, honey, it's from Ashley. They helped me refresh this whole space. Plus, Ashley provides fast, reliable white glove delivery right to your room of choice. Visit your local Ashley store or head to ashley.com to find your style.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Was there anything in any of these three that fictional Richard did that real Richard would never do?

• 1:06:38Speaker 02

  Hmm. That's a great, that's a great question. And, and I didn't say I washed the dishes or anything like that. I joked about, oh, you know what? My son would be like, yeah, walk the dog. And that's BS. I walked a dog, just not as much as they do.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  Like I was walking the dog when I found the garbage bag containing certain things and becoming the Boogeyman.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Speaker 02

  Cause people still drive by my house, by the way.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  And take pictures of the fire hydrant that the bag was next to.

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Are you serious?

• 1:07:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so funny.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  I'll be on the lawn.

• 1:07:07Speaker 01

  You're just like-

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Someone will slow down and they're, they're rubbernecking and I'm just like, oh God.

• 1:07:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Which is why Kara hates that I, um, she's like, you had to write about real people. Okay. Did you have to write about our real house? And I'm like, yes, I really did. I had to buy in as much as the reader.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Right. What you know, right?

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I can make up a house. I've done it in every other book.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 02

  I'm like, but for this book, it had to be me. I had to be going through this. Um, you know, so yeah, it had to be our house. It had to be our four dogs. It has to be the kids. It, it's just the only way I, I could do it. Um, whether it's, it's just that whole belief thing that I talked about, or whether I'm not a good enough writer to, to fake it this time. I don't know. But I just, I knew it when I was writing the introduction to Chasing. So yeah, it's our house. It's our fire hydrant. Um, the fence that, that in the picture where they said the, you know, the Boogeyman's back, that someone spray painted on there.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:05Speaker 02

  That's our real fence. When Billy and I spray painted it with water, you know, washable paint, we actually had two people stop. One said, you, you want me to call the police?

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:08:15Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:08:16Speaker 02

  Somebody else said, did you get vandalized? And we had to tell them.

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  You're like, no.

• 1:08:19Speaker 03

  You're like, no, but buy my book.

• 1:08:21Speaker 02

  Cool if we did? Kara's like watching in the background.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  Like, no, it would not be cool.

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  She's like, I knew this was gonna be a spectacle.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  She'll come home and she'll be like, yeah, I saw so and so in the grocery store. I haven't seen them forever, but she knows where we live. She knows what our house looks like. She's driven by, she talks about, oh, I drive by two, three times a week.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. That's my worst nightmare.

• 1:08:39Speaker 03

  That's so scary.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  Well, and the thing is, is I'm very private. That's, I, I mean, even, my agent was shocked when I turned the book into her and I said, and by the way, I'm the main character.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:08:50Speaker 02

  She's constantly, well, not so much now, but in the beginning, she was constantly saying, you should go to this, this convention, you should go to this. I'm a home guy.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, we relate to that so heavily.

• 1:09:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. I love staying home. Like, you know, I, I would give anything for COVID not to have happened, but it really didn't affect my life that much.

• 1:09:10Speaker 03

  Agreed.

• 1:09:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, and Kara will be the first to tell you, you know, we were so lucky because, you know, we've got some property. We've got a pretty little pond and it's just like we had our own little place.

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  You have your own little like, what you need there.

• 1:09:21Speaker 02

  Yes. And, and, and I, uh, I mean, I felt guilty thinking that because I'm just like, I'm good.

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:27Speaker 02

  You know, I, and then you think about the people who weren't good because they were crammed into a tenement house or apartments. But, um, yeah, I just, uh, again, it was the only way I knew how to do it. And, and the fact that people drive by and do that, I'm gonna put a little free library in front of our house.

• 1:09:43Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great idea.

• 1:09:44Speaker 02

  I'm like, you know what? I'm just, I'm just embracing.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Make it worth it.

• 1:09:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm like, I'm gonna embrace it. I, uh, it, it's a cool way to honor somebody who was really important in my life. I'm gonna put a little plaque on the side and-

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's awesome.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  Honor this person. And I'm gonna have a lot of, you know, weird fiction in there.

• 1:10:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. You should make it like horror themed.

• 1:10:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:02Speaker 03

  And I'll have some bookmarks.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 02

  The whole thing. So they can stop their car and safely take a picture of the, uh, fire hydrant.

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  And also get a book while they're at it, you know?

• 1:10:11Speaker 03

  And get a book.

• 1:10:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 1:10:13Speaker 03

  And feel like it's worth it. There you go.

• 1:10:14Speaker 01

  Just wave from the window.

• 1:10:16Speaker 02

  That's what Kara's like. Just start looking in the windows.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Oh, God. That's when it's over.

• 1:10:20Speaker 03

  Need those blackout shades.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  I do write about it in great detail about our awesome security system with all the cameras.

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  And I'm like, so hopefully that's enough to-

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  And that's real.

• 1:10:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, do I have to put like, should I put like all these signs out saying, and I'm like, no, because when I was a kid, if I saw those, I'm like, you know, no trespassing. I'm like, challenge accepted.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:10:40Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:10:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:10:41Speaker 02

  I'll just keep it low key.

• 1:10:42Speaker 01

  You just know I have cameras. I'll see you.

• 1:10:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  That's all. Now, the premise of the third book and Killing the Boogeyman, it kind of like blows the doors off of some of the reality that we get to know in the first two books. Because I feel like there's a little bit of a suggestion that the killer has become a little more than human almost. And how much did you want to push the reader into asking or considering whether the Boogeyman was like literally supernatural?

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  I, I wanted to push them just to the, right to the edge of that blurry line.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. I feel like you did.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  And I tried to put enough subtleties in there. And, you know, some readers are probably gonna laugh because I use subtlety in, in regards to the Boogeyman books. But, uh, yeah, I, I wanted to take them right there and, but leave some hints that maybe, you know, maybe what they're seeing isn't so reliable in a lot of ways. And, but again,

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  It was coming from a place of, you know, the boogeyman really can be Ted Bundy.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  You know, or the boogeyman could be, you know, Michael Myers and in a lot of ways, he's both.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  You know, and, and there's some direct kind of nods to the Halloween series in the third book. Um, and that was on purpose.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:57Speaker 02

  And I was prepared to fight for those in case my, you know, like with widow's point, I know my editor said a couple of times in the margin, you know, this is a little Blair witchish. And Billy and I are like.

• 1:12:07Speaker 01

  Well, great. That's.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  We want that to be.

• 1:12:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. We're like, and you know, if the reader thinks that more power to.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:13Speaker 02

  It's fine. You know, I'm not trying to invent the wheel here and, and I felt the same way, but, uh, yeah, I just, I, I, I, to me, like, I wouldn't be surprised if somehow, you know, they went back after all these years and examined Ted Bundy's DNA and he wasn't quite human.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, honestly.

• 1:12:29Speaker 02

  Like I listened to your podcast about the Green River Killer.

• 1:12:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:32Speaker 02

  And you guys were fired up, which I loved.

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:34Speaker 02

  All about, you know, the guy, cause he's this wormy looking, you know, guy. And it's just like, how did he do everything he did? Now, part of it's because he did look the way he did.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 02

  But that's like, like I, I like talking about Joshua Gallagher and the fact that, you know, some of the small things like how, how big his hands are and things like that. Because, and I liked playing with things like, you know, his, you know, he looks taller and his, you know, his, his, his measurements changed.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Or was it just a bored, you know, physician that day at the prison who copied it down wrong and those kinds of things. And I just, I liked playing with it.

• 1:13:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  You know, I mean, some people think, you know, Michael Myers is stupid because he gets up and he, he never runs and he just chases you like that. But to me.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Scarier.

• 1:13:17Speaker 02

  The believer, I'm terrified.

• 1:13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:19Speaker 02

  You know, so it's, it's, the boogeyman books, I always just said, you know, there, that it is again, it's another campfire story.

• 1:13:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Um, it's a throwback to really traditional storytelling. And the fact that in the last one, I kind of got to blur the lines a little bit was.

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  I loved it because it's true that like, you think of like Richard Ramirez, like the night stalker or something like, he was like a literal boogeyman. Oh, he really was like teeth and all. And for how long they couldn't catch him. And then it's like, and the way he got caught was awesome. I love that. Neighborhood just chased him down. That's my favorite. Yeah. They just chased him down and beat the shit out of him. But oh yeah, the best ending. Yep. And. That's a neighborhood. I want to belong to that community. Yeah.

• 1:13:57Speaker 02

  And who was this, the, the, the, the big one, the Sacramento.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Ed Kemper.

• 1:14:03Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:14:03Speaker 01

  Oh, the Golden State Killer?

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  The fact that he would sneak into some of the houses and leave things.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  And take time in there. And eat dinner. Eat food. Yep.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  Oh, and leave things like to make things easier.

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like he would leave the length of rope.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Running the couch and. Like that is supernatural. Or that he would stack the dishes. Yeah, that's, no, it's like, there's, there's sometimes, and you can't imagine somebody that evil being all human. Right.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  It's so non-high tech.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:14:31Speaker 02

  Like I love the X-Files when it's, you know, when, when it got techie sometimes. And because again, you know, for me, it's like all magic.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  The simplest, the simplest technology, but, and, and there are those, you know, books that do that really well. Um, for me, this is more about, you know, if you're scared of the sound of a screen being removed from a window. When you're laying in bed.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  That to me, that's the things that scare me. So that's why I say it's more traditional. So it's, it's, I, I think those are the people who, you know, are going to relate to the books in a really strong way.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  For sure. Now, as you're kind of like creating the plots and the mysteries within each plot, how do you decide what is, you know, like what mystery deserves an answer? Or which mystery is almost scarier because it's left unresolved?

• 1:15:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that's a really good question.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:15:20Speaker 02

  Usually I just get the, hey, hey, you dork. You didn't answer the, you know, the questions of what the numbers meant and those kinds of things.

• 1:15:25Speaker 01

  No, sometimes it's scarier.

• 1:15:27Speaker 02

  It's from reading so many true crime books, especially about, you know, people, you know, that phrase hunting humans has always been terrified to me.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 02

  Um, but people who do that, and the fact that no matter, no matter if they're caught, they're prosecuted, they're, you know, removed from society, there, there's usually, it's never usually super neat. The bow tie on the end, no matter how good the detectives are or the police. Um, so I, I always want some things to go unexplained.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  Um, and I think it's scarier that way.

• 1:15:59Speaker 01

  I think so too.

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  It's like the Blair Witch, right?

• 1:16:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I know some readers hate it. Um, I know some writers don't like it and they always want to provide that explanation.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  And I swear it's, it's like actually one case where I'm not being lazy. Cause there are other cases where I'm like, you know, I could research this, but I'm just going to make it up.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  But yeah, so, you know, I, I, it's usually not a set thing. Like I knew I wasn't going to explain anything at the end of chasing the boogeyman about that.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Even though I never knew there's going to be a site, a sequel.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  When I started writing the sequel, I thought, okay, well, I'm going to answer everything.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  And I even remember telling Billy, I'm like, you need to start brainstorming because dad's old and tired.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  So then I remember, you know, I did, I think I did a chapter that was like the, the something of numerology. And I thought, oh, I'm going to answer it here. But as I started writing it, I realized, no, I'm not.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't want to answer it.

• 1:16:52Speaker 02

  I'm not a.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 1:16:53Speaker 02

  I'm not a, a, a big outliner.

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:16:56Speaker 02

  So I always just say, I, I honestly, you know, I let the story gain momentum and then I kind of just grab onto the story's, uh, the, the tail of its shirt.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  So you're like a panzer?

• 1:17:05Speaker 02

  And let it pull me. Yeah.

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  For the most part. Now with chasing, when I got like 75, a hundred pages in the ideas and the memories started coming back so fast.

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:15Speaker 02

  That I was like, I need to write that down. I need to write that down. And then what I found out was I'm like, no wonder people like to outline because it gave me like this roadmap. That I could follow.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  And I'm not super neurotic about sticking to it.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:17:27Speaker 02

  Which I know is a, is a negative for people who do outline sometimes. So I was like, I wrote it so fast because I, I knew where I was going.

• 1:17:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  Um, but I've never really done that again since. It's a miracle. I can finish anything.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  See, I lightly outline, like I, I give a bones of what I want to happen, but I never stick fully to it. You're like a combo of panzer and planner. It changes as I go. So I end up with like the bones of one. And then by the end of it, it's like.

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  Do you know the ending or no? Cause I don't know what the ending.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  I don't always know the ending.

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  That makes me happy too.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  In fact, there's, in fact, right now, I'm in the middle of writing one. I don't exactly know the ending. She always wants to tell me the ending. I'm like, I want to read it. I know. Cause I'm like, you and like John are the only two people, like my husband and Ash are the only people that I'm like, read this and tell me if it's okay. And I usually like to, but now that you're like so much more established, I'm like, no, no, no, I, I want to get these points. Read it with everyone else. Yeah. I want to feel the excitement. It's just John that I can give it to.

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Billy is mine.

• 1:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  You know, again, the people who have like entire reading groups and things, I'm like, that's alien to me.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I couldn't.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  And I know why. Because it would just, it would just be like six different instances of me getting mad all over again.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Exactly. That might be too much. Yeah.

• 1:18:36Speaker 02

  I'm like, that's a, it's a emotional roller coaster once.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right. That's why John is like my tabby from like Stephen King and Tabitha. Cause it's like, I will give him a chapter and he'll be like, hey, so this actually doesn't make sense what you wrote. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. That actually didn't make sense. Like he'll be like, or you said this, but then you said this after this.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:56Speaker 01

  So it's good to be able to have that before I can pass it to an editor. Cause it's just a couple of things. I don't have to worry about them being like, hey, that doesn't make sense. Yeah. You need that trusted person. Yeah.

• 1:19:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, it's always nice when the editor actually thinks you're kind of smart.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. I'm like, this makes me look a lot more confident than I actually am. So these three.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Now, was there a scene in any three of the books that you finished writing it and you were like, all right, that was fucked up even for me?

• 1:19:24Speaker 02

  Um, the, the mannequin scene that I describe in, uh, chasing the boogeyman, that the detective tells him when, when I ask him, what's the creepiest thing?

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  That row home full of mannequins, including one on the toilet, one in the shower.

• 1:19:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:36Speaker 02

  Um, I think two of them were making love on the bed. It just felt so perverse and just, and people have asked me, they're like, all right, you have a thing about mannequins because they should pop up in two books.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  And there's mannequins in widow's point.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  Point. That actually is one of the scariest parts. Mannequins are so scary.

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  That was scary, right? That, yeah.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  That part scared the shit out of me.

• 1:19:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. It bugged me. It bugged me.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  That's why I, I thought widow's point might be scary. You know, you never know, but I just felt like, I'm like, there were enough scenes where I gave it to Billy or he gave it to me and we said to each other.

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  That freaked me out.

• 1:20:08Speaker 01

  That's, yeah.

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  You know, some of the scenes on the catwalk where he turned around and they had all moved and different things like that. I was like, oh man, that happens to me. I might just be diving off the side.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Honestly. On it. Yeah. I would do the same.

• 1:20:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, the, the, that mannequin scene bothered me.

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  Um, there, there's a scene again involving a mannequin in, in the second book where in my own home, where it's just boom. It, it's just, uh, and again, I don't want to give anything, anything away, but it's just, it's, it's somewhere where it absolutely shouldn't be. And I realize it and that, and then a split second later, so, you know, there's an action scene, um, as a result of it, but it, it's just, you know, and then, just writing about the victims. I mean, like I said, I've read a lot of true crime. Uh, you know, there's, there's,

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  you know, there's not a lot of active blood. I don't describe it happening, but describing some of the wounds and the bruises and, and the fact that they were young women. And again, I grew up with three sisters and, and, um, yeah, it, it bothered me and it made me feel like, okay. You know, maybe think twice about ever wanting to be a true crime. I mean, we actually had someone. Um, I think it was two years ago. We live in this little town called Bel Air. And it's got a main street. It's, you know, it's a nice little town and, and there's a walking trail that I used to run on. And, uh, we walked the dogs and we used to walk our kids there. And a woman was, a young woman was murdered there.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  I think two years ago, and, um, there was talk of like a serial killer and, you know, I was like, oh man, I can't, put anything at signs out for like the boogeyman signings and all that stuff. I don't, but, and it was extra weird because she had sent me a Facebook invite. Like a few months before she was murdered.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:21:54Speaker 02

  I never accepted it because I had too many and I didn't know who she was and, and, and all that. But, um, that really struck home. So again, you know, it just, I was writing about people that, that were make believe, but in, in ways that, people had been written about before.

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. It's weird when it becomes too close. Too close to home. That's happened to us. It makes me think of the Gabby Petito case. Yeah.

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  That happened. One of her posts on her Instagram was her listening to morbid. And then when it happened, I was like, and we, everybody was asking us to cover her case. And we were like, uh, like, so we just didn't. Cause I was like, I don't like, I don't feel right doing that right now. Yeah. Like we will eventually just to make sure that her story is told. But at the time it was like, oh, that's really close to the, like, that's too close. Yeah. That felt weird. You know? Yeah. Oh, definitely. Well, speaking about that, what do you think that horror fiction can say about murder that true crime can't necessarily?

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Man, you guys are good.

• 1:22:56Speaker 03

  We've done this a few times.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  I just push the button and give my answer, but um, you know, I don't even know if I can answer that that specifically, what it can give you that true crime can. I mean, because think about it, as as wild as our imaginations are.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Real people.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  There's stuff that has been that has been, again, listening to your podcast, you were talking about the Green River and some of the stuff that was left on one of the bodies.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that particular one.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  And the stones.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Yep. Which I won't go into detail about right now.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Horrific.

• 1:23:33Speaker 02

  But.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  You couldn't conjure that.

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  You would never make that up.

• 1:23:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  Or if I did, it would be one of those things that haunted me.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  And I'd be like, well, you know, I don't, you know, I, because I do come from a place of of, you know, innocence with this, you know, none of my friends, my friends know I'm a big kid. They were shocked when they read my stuff for the first time.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Even though I was always the scary guy, they're like, you know, you're the pain in the ass. You're the big kid who's joking and pranking us. And you're writing about where's this dark stuff coming from?

• 1:24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:03Speaker 02

  You know, um, I, I come from a place where, you know, if I, if I did think of that stone, something like that, it would bother me for a while. And then, but there's just, there's no real connection to my world there.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  It's just make believe. It's like the boogeyman. But again, I believe in the boogeyman.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:21Speaker 02

  It just takes, he just assumes many different identities and faces. So, yeah, I, that's the thing. I feel like there's so much stuff. And if we had a pair of homicide detectives, a guy I fish with, he's a fishing guide. His name's Kenny Penrod, and he's a retired homicide detective.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  So, the cool thing is, is when we fish, we get to talk about so many different things.

• 1:24:43Speaker 03

  I was gonna say.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  And sometimes, if he was sitting here, he would, and I had him answer that question, he'd be like, well, that's, you know, true crime, real life, blows anything you guys can make up.

• 1:24:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  A way, because some of the most vile, disgusting, not remotely entertaining, even in a.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Fascination.

• 1:25:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, fascination, you know, just, you know, seasoned horror reader or viewer way, would, you know, the, the movies that they talk about that go too far.

• 1:25:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, we always talk about that.

• 1:25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:13Speaker 02

  They've happened.

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  And worse.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Speaker 02

  And, and, yeah, and I don't know how they do those jobs. I've always said, you know, I feel like I'd be a decent, you know, detective like that. But I would be, unfortunately, I'd probably be the guy who was drinking as a result of it.

• 1:25:26Speaker 03

  Honestly.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  Because I couldn't get rid of it.

• 1:25:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's tough. Even just not even, obviously, we're not detectives, but even talking about the story. Sometimes it's like

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:33Speaker 03

  hard to come down from that.

• 1:25:34Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's been a couple, like the Moore's murders.

• 1:25:37Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Speaker 01

  They, that

• 1:25:39Speaker 03

  That was really heavy.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  ruined me for a while. I was like, we need to do some like spooky stuff for a few weeks because I need to get this out of my head.

• 1:25:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, we like to go paranormal if we, if we

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, if we go too hard with something.

• 1:25:48Speaker 03

  cover a really intense case. Yeah.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I, I mean, I worked in the morgue for like years. So I did autopsies and sometimes there would be certain, like, especially if we did kids or like babies.

• 1:26:00Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Where it would like, I would come home to my kids and be like, like, I know that somebody lost there.

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  And like, it would ruin me a little bit. So that's the only part that like, people will be like, do you miss the morgue? And I'm like, I do, because I loved that job.

• 1:26:13Speaker 03

  But not that side of it.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  But that was the part that I don't know if I could have kept doing.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Well, that's because, look, you're someone like me who has a huge imagination. I can't imagine what a child looks like. I've, I've never seen a, you know, a deceased child. So I can't imagine what up close that looks like.

• 1:26:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  Especially if it was, you know, by violent means or anything like that, or an accident or something. So, so I, yeah, so when I see, you know, a healthy child, which I've seen, you know, thousands of, I don't have that

• 1:26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  ability to, to see the other side of it.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  The darker part of it.

• 1:26:49Speaker 02

  So I can't imagine that.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  It's awful.

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's, that's how I feel like I would be, because the way my brain works, I would see it all the time.

• 1:26:56Speaker 03

  That's the thing. I would have trouble getting rid of that.

• 1:26:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:58Speaker 03

  That's even like crime scene photos that we've like accidentally stumbled across. Or, you know, like when you Google something, those are hard to get out of your head. There's still crime scene pictures that will flash in my head.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, and ones that I wasn't looking for. Like, I was just searching for like research.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  The kinds that don't put in the books.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  And sometimes it just pops up.

• 1:27:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  It's, it's such, I mean, like I've said, you know, that, and that's something I learned really early on, is there's the true crime books which are done, you know, that shouldn't ever have been published.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're like exploitative.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:27Speaker 02

  Yes, they very much. And then there's the ones that are done with dignity. And my answer to the scariest book I've ever read for a long time was Anne Rule's The Stranger Beside Me.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  Because

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  The scene with the pieces of wood in the sorority house, those are the kind of details that made me want to be a writer, because I realized you, you can implant that in a reader's head and they'll never forget.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  That'll stick with them.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Or, or in that moment, it'll transport them to that place.

• 1:27:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:53Speaker 02

  And that's what Stephen King's work did for me.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  Those little details.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:57Speaker 02

  Um, so when I read that book, and this really happened, I was just, I still don't see, you know, a stack of firewood to this day and not think of it.

• 1:28:05Speaker 03

  You think of that.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  And I'm like, damn it.

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:28:07Speaker 02

  You know, so, yeah.

• 1:28:09Speaker 01

  That's the thing, like with the Moore's murders, one of the things was, like during one horrific situation, Little Drummer Boy was playing.

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  Oh, like the Christmas song?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  And now I can't hear it. Like, I can't hear it. I, I think there's an episode of The Office, and we always watch The Office to like chill out. And Little Drummer Boy plays, and I can't watch that episode.

• 1:28:28Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:28:29Speaker 01

  Can't do it. I'm like, you gotta turn it off. I can't do it. Those things will stick with you, those tiny little details.

• 1:28:34Speaker 03

  They do.

• 1:28:35Speaker 02

  And see, and I love the fact, I was gonna say, it ruined it for you.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  And I hate that. Like, you know, there's, I have, you know, examples of that also. But as a writer, I don't know if you feel the same way.

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  When it's fiction.

• 1:28:45Speaker 02

  Yes. I love the fact that I've ruined things for people.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:28:48Speaker 03

  That's fun.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  I love the fact that I have people who say they're scared to take their garbage out.

• 1:28:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:28:54Speaker 02

  I have people who say, I, my spouse, because of you, my spouse hates you because they have had to accompany me or take the garbage out for the last two years.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  Or my dog loves you because now I take my, I leash up my dog and I take him out. And it's an extra little, you know, nighttime walk.

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  Right. I love that.

• 1:29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm like, right on.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  That's the thing.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:12Speaker 03

  That's a win.

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  When people tell me I've ruined certain songs for them, I'm like, cool.

• 1:29:16Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Like, I love that.

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. So different.

• 1:29:20Speaker 01

  But speaking, actually, you mentioned Stephen King again. And I have to ask, how did, how did that begin, co-writing with Stephen King?

• 1:29:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, your guess is as good as mine.

• 1:29:30Speaker 03

  Show me your ways.

• 1:29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I started, you know, my magazine, Cemetery Trained Dance, back in 1988 when I was in college. And from day one, I sent up the first issue, the second issue, the horrible looking first, second, third issue, all of that, up to his office in Bangor. Got to know his assistant really well. A woman named Shirley first, and then Marcia. And they were the sweetest ladies in the world. You know, they knew I was young and, and naive and, and, you know, doing my best.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  And they were like, sure, we'll pass you by.

• 1:30:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they really did.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  And like, that was 88. In 91, Stephen King sent me an original story, Chattery Teeth. I'll never forget it. Kara will remember. We lived, you know, newly married, we were living in an apartment. And I get a postcard from a guy named Chuck Vorel, who was Steve's editor slash agent. And it said, I think it said to the effect, "A month ago, I sent you a manuscript, Chattery Teeth by Stephen King." He, he's a big fan of Cemetery Trained Dance and would love to see it appear, and we wondered if you had a look at it yet.

• 1:30:33Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Like, this, what? No?

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  In my closet, I had a stack of, of unsolicited submissions about three or four foot high. I sprinted down the hallway, flinging them everywhere, found it. No wonder I didn't know it came from Stephen King, because the label on it was Chuck Vorel, New York.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Yeah.

• 1:30:50Speaker 02

  Rip it open, it's this 30-page original story. I read it sitting on the floor. I go hug her, we're like tears.

• 1:30:57Speaker 01

  Seriously, I'd be bawling.

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  Oh, I write him back right away, tell him, you know, and I'll never forget it, because we then went to an Oriole game. We're probably celebrating, you know, with no money. We're probably like, we're spending 20 bucks tonight.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Oh, hell, yeah.

• 1:31:10Speaker 02

  A little large, you know. Came home and there's a message on my answering machine from Stephen King saying.

• 1:31:16Speaker 03

  Stop. Elena's gonna have heart palpitations.

• 1:31:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. I can't tell you how happy I, how pleased I am that you liked it and that I'm gonna be in Cemetery Trained Dance. You do a great job.

• 1:31:25Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  I'm a big fan. I just popped out the little micro cassette, put in a new one.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, this is mine forever.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Haven't played it in years, but I still have it.

• 1:31:34Speaker 03

  Oh, that's great.

• 1:31:34Speaker 02

  Has S and a K on it. So that's what started it. And then just the progression over the years, more stories, and then eventually books. At some point, he, he was, at this, you talk about his assistant, we were invited to his 25th anniversary, no, 20th anniversary of Carrie.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  Party. It was at Tavern on the Green in New York City.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  Um, very Stephen King-ish in that the invite said, "P.S. Jeans and T-shirts are fine."

• 1:32:00Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 1:32:01Speaker 02

  I wasn't bold enough to do jeans and T-shirts, but I, it meant, it meant I didn't have to wear a tie, which made me happy.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  A plus.

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  Went up there, that's the first time I met him. And then it was just like a natural progression. At some point, he texted me about, I think, an Oriole or Red Sox or something. And I remember looking at Kara and going, does that mean I'm allowed to text him back?

• 1:32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, it feels like it's okay now.

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  It's like, is this really Steve? Come on, Brian. But it's 207, it's the main area.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, this is him.

• 1:32:28Speaker 02

  So at some, yeah, at some point, that the business relationship turned into like this genuine long distance friendship. And then eventually, you know, we saw some baseball games together. He wanted me to, I was down in Sarasota for a film festival. He wanted me to come to his house and show him the short film I was showing.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:32:44Speaker 02

  Different things like that. And then I got, you know, he invited us to the main premieres of his movies up there.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  That's so cool.

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  So my kids got to meet him. And, and then at some point, I mean, never in a million years, did I ever, the fact that I published them and was friends with them was mind blowing.

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Of course. Yeah.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  And, and, and at some point, and we email about everything, but rarely business and text a lot. I mean, it's more about the dogs, sports, books, movies. Again, some things that would probably, you know, not be socially acceptable.

• 1:33:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're like homies at this point.

• 1:33:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, um, At some point, I asked him about round robin projects, like the kind where you have like six or 10 different authors and each one writes a chapter or something. And he wrote back, this was via email, he wrote back, said, you know, those never really interest him because he doesn't feel like they're very successful, but you know, collaborations are a different thing. And in that email thread, he mentioned that he had a story called Gwendy's Button Box that he'd never been able to finish. And I said, oh, I'd love to read it, meaning I would just love to read it. And because we're friends, sometimes I get the cool, you know, thing of getting to read manuscripts. And I'm just like, I'd like to read the story that Stephen King can't finish.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:58Speaker 02

  That was the end of it. I still remember we were driving to Noah, my youngest son's basketball game, went in the basketball game, forgot all about it. Next morning, I wake up to an email that says, that has Gwendy's Button Box attached. And it says, this is the whole email, do with it as you wish.

• 1:34:13Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:34:13Speaker 02

  So I remember thinking, I said, well, I can't publish it. Sometimes they'll send me a story unsolicited and say you have something you can use this for.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Right.

• 1:34:22Speaker 02

  And I'm like, well, I can't publish it. So what does he mean? So I just wrote him back again, you know, the green horn. I'm like, what do you mean? You want me to finish it? Not thinking anything about that, thinking probably in my brain that, you know, of course, that's not what he means.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  But what, what else? You know, that's a natural response. So he came back and he says, if you think you can. So that was a Friday and I remember.

• 1:34:41Speaker 01

  Seriously, I'd be like, okay.

• 1:34:42Speaker 02

  I didn't, yeah. Okay, I'm doing it. But I, but I also knew what it meant. So I didn't tell, I didn't tell anybody until that Sunday. And then I remember I told Kara, and I remember I went in, the boys were watching TV and you know, they knew who Stephen King was.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  Billy had read a lot of his work and I'm just like, so I'm gonna write a story with Stephen King.

• 1:35:05Speaker 01

  What do you guys think of that?

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. I sat down to write some notes about it on Monday. And of course, it mentions Castle Rock in the very first sentence.

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:13Speaker 02

  So I'm like, not only am I writing about Stephen King, but I'm in flipping Castle Rock.

• 1:35:16Speaker 01

  Oh, this could not be better.

• 1:35:18Speaker 02

  So that's, that's how it started, like this happy accident.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's so organic.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Of, yes, it's like, yeah, I never would have asked in a million years.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  Never, like at that point, I wasn't even asking like, hey, can I publish a limited of your new book? Because I felt like he knows what I do. If he wants me to do it.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, he'll say it.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  He'll say it. Every once in a while, I had what I thought was a brilliant idea. And I'm like, hey, Steve, what about if we do this? And you know, most of them were just like, nah. You know?

• 1:35:42Speaker 01

  We're like, all right.

• 1:35:43Speaker 02

  Not like, not like an official, you know, it was never an official proposal and it was never an official response. It was more like nah.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, just throwing it out there.

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  Not this time.

• 1:35:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:51Speaker 02

  Maybe later, you know?

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  So, yeah, I sat down to write notes on a yellow pad and I just, I'll never forget it. My hand was shaking and I was just like, this is ridiculous. I'm terrified.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  I opened it, I opened his file and I just started writing. And like two days later, I had like 10,000 more words, which is a lot for me.

• 1:36:11Speaker 01

  I'm sure, yeah.

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  And I just remember thinking, okay, now I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna clean it up and I'm gonna make this the best thing in the world. And I just thought, and if I do that, I'm never gonna send it.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  So I gave it one read through and I hit send. And I probably did one of these, my mom, you know, was very happy, wherever she is. And, and he liked it and he wrote a little bit more and sent it back. And I wrote the original ending. He actually wrote back and said, Rich, this is too dark, which I thought.

• 1:36:36Speaker 01

  What a compliment. I would tattoo that on me.

• 1:36:40Speaker 02

  I'm dying to find that in my files, in my computer. Because I'm like, one day I wanna ask him, can I print it as a chapbook?

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:46Speaker 02

  The, the ending that was too dark for Stephen King. And he was right, because none of the sequels would have been possible with my ending.

• 1:36:53Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 1:36:54Speaker 02

  And he told me later, he goes, I just knew Gwendy deserved better. And I'm like, you were so right.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:00Speaker 02

  So that's, that's how it came about. And I had the cover really quickly. We told no one, we put it in production and stuff. And I, I just remember walking around with it and I would call up the cover on my cell phone like three times a day. And I mean, I got a lump in my throat talking about it right now. And I would just look at it and I'd be like, how is this my life?

• 1:37:20Speaker 01

  You're like pinching yourself.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:23Speaker 02

  I'm like, uh.

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  I would be the same way, like the same. It's like the ultimate honor for authors like you guys. Yeah. Or just any author, I think. Cause I think we, we sent Stephen King's like off at like his people. The first book, we sent him The Butcher and the Wren, which I was like, oh God, we sent him that one.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  I was like, why did we do that? Why didn't we wait? And I think we got like a nice note back that was like, he didn't have time at the time to read it, which like, he's Stephen King. But I was like, maybe he like knows I exist though. Cause then he was, cause then he was number one on the New York Times list when I was number two. And I was like, he might have seen my name next to his. Yeah.

• 1:38:04Speaker 02

  Absolutely, dude.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Like, I hope he knows who I am.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  He probably cursed your name in that moment.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  I hope so. I hope so.

• 1:38:09Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:38:10Speaker 01

  That's what I want. Again, an honor.

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  That happened to me once where I wasn't nowhere near number one or two, but we were both on it at the same time. And again, it was one of those moments where it was just like.

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  You're sharing the list.

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. How is, how is that even possible? Right? Just the whole thing. But yeah, people ask me about that and I'm just like, look, it's ridiculous. It, it, I have no idea how it, if, if there's any proof that magic really does.

• 1:38:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:33Speaker 02

  You know, exist in this world, that's it. Because I am just, I'm the constant reader. I, I still have Stephen King books inscribed to me by my sisters, because they were Christmas or birthday presents. Saying, I know how much you love this, you know, writer. So, and I have them up on my shelf, um, right next to the ones inscribed to me by Steve. And I'm just like, so, I mean, you know, I'm gonna get cheesy here for a second, but I'm a two-time cancer survivor.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:38:57Speaker 02

  And when I was 29 and when I was 30. And I always just felt like, you know, there was reasons, there were reasons there why I made it. And for a while, you have that survivor's guilt, because you're just like, you know, why me? And not all these other amazing people that you've met or you've read about and all that. Um, but I've always felt like, first and foremost, okay, I, I survived to be a father. Because that, I always wanted to have children. And even when Kara and I were high school sweethearts, where I was like, oh, one day we're gonna get married and have kids. And I think back then, I was like, five kids.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  That's Gwendy's style.

• 1:39:33Speaker 02

  And, and I just, it's been the best thing in the world for both of us. I mean, we say it all the time.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:39Speaker 02

  You know, that's, that's it. If, if, at the end, if there's nothing else said then, other than we were a good mom and dad.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Then that's.

• 1:39:45Speaker 02

  Right on.

• 1:39:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:39:46Speaker 02

  That's it. And, um, and I just felt like, you know, maybe this was one other thing. That was, that was a gift waiting for me.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  I'd say that was.

• 1:39:54Speaker 02

  On the back end, because I, I've no other way to explain it, that I should have. I've asked his assistant, Marsha, I'm like, why the hell were you always so nice to me? You know, I tell her, she's like my guardian angel. And she's just like, well, you never had, she's just like, you, you kinda stood apart from a lot of people who always asked him things, because you never had a sense of entitlement. Like, how dare he say no? You're always just like, you said ahead of time, he's got no reason to say yes to this, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Like genuine, just like.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  And, and again, and then hand in hand with Steve, he's told me at some point, he's just like, I always knew you were doing this for the right reasons.

• 1:40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:29Speaker 02

  I made no money in my twenties. Kara will verify that. It wasn't until the middle of my thirties, where I was publishing a lot of books, that it started becoming a real business.

• 1:40:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:38Speaker 02

  Um, so I, I really was always doing it because I loved it.

• 1:40:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Speaker 02

  And cause I couldn't, I don't know what else I would have done.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40:47Speaker 02

  But yeah, so, so yeah, when I, when I look at it like that, I'm just, I, I'm just grateful. You know, I tried to, you know, I tell my boys that all the time. I'm like, live a life of gratitude, because, because we're very lucky, we're very fortunate. And, um, there are people who work just as hard. I always get that, you know, the people who kinda, they don't wanna hear that.

• 1:41:06Speaker 02

  They, they don't wanna hear the, you know, privilege and some of those things. And they're just like, well, you've worked really hard. And I'm like, yeah, but you know what? There's a lot of people who've worked just as hard as I have.

• 1:41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:15Speaker 02

  And they haven't had that level of success. So you're not gonna sell me on that idea.

• 1:41:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:41:19Speaker 02

  I'm gonna wake up that day.

• 1:41:20Speaker 01

  I fully believe in luck. Like you have to be grateful for everything that you have right now.

• 1:41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yep, and, and be willing to just do the work and.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  And people can sense that, like obviously Stephen King sensed that you were.

• 1:41:33Speaker 02

  I think he sensed that I was this weirdo who was just like, you know, just happy as hell to be doing what I'm doing. Even though every income tax season, I was like, you know, looking at Kara going, I made 47 cents an hour.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:49Speaker 02

  You know what? God bless her, because again, there's a lot of partners who would have been like, it's time to go get a real job.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:55Speaker 02

  And there was never that. I mean, even my dad, I always say, my dad, what a gift. He, he was ex-military and he was a very by the numbers guy. Go to college, get your degree, have a career. He never blinked when I said, well, this is gonna be my career, this ugly black and white magazine. And, and he helped me stuff flyers and envelopes and all that stuff. He never for a moment said, Rich, go get a real job.

• 1:42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:19Speaker 02

  And that's why I tell people, I'm like, you can't discount what having that kind of faith and support in your corner will do for you.

• 1:42:26Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It's so true.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  I'm like, I don't know if I would have given up if I didn't have people like Kara and my mom and my dad and my sisters and my friends. I mean, that's the cool thing about my friends too.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:35Speaker 02

  They remember all those stories. They remember when I was in my twenties and I used to say, no, vacations are for lazy people. And God bless Kara, she didn't divorce me, you know, we didn't go on vacation for I don't know how many years, because I was working.

• 1:42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:46Speaker 02

  And I was like, I'm not gonna go spend, you know, a ridiculously low amount now as an adult with a family. I'm not gonna go spend $400 to go skiing. You know, I can't. And, and you know, God bless her, she, you know, she's just like, well, you know, she knew I had something, you know, I had a vision of something.

• 1:43:03Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 1:43:03Speaker 02

  And so, yeah, again, you talk about having a reason for gratitude.

• 1:43:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's, that's, and it's rare, I feel like, to have people like that.

• 1:43:11Speaker 02

  Especially in today's world. Exactly. Where everybody has a company and, and especially online.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  And it's just like, uh, you know, that's, and I think that's why I'm able to kinda digest the stuff online a little easier, because I'm just like, you're not gonna, you're not gonna affect me.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I've got all, all these people around me.

• 1:43:28Speaker 02

  I can, I can see, you know, Noah doing this or Billy, or I can take four dogs for a walk with Kara and come home to my 250 year old house and just feel like, how lucky are we?

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:43:40Speaker 02

  Whatever it is that's bad will pass.

• 1:43:41Speaker 01

  I feel about exact same way. We're always saying that. Yep.

• 1:43:44Speaker 02

  Which is awesome, when you find people like that, you kinda.

• 1:43:47Speaker 01

  Well, you don't always find people like that.

• 1:43:48Speaker 02

  No, that's what I'm saying, when you do, you bring them close. Because there's not a lot of people, and I mean, again, I'm the luckiest guy in the world with my friends. But yeah, some of them right now would be going, oh, here goes, kumbaya, Rich. You know.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  But you're like, that's why you love me. And that's why it works.

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  That's what it is. I can't pretend to be anything else.

• 1:44:05Speaker 01

  No, you have to. Life would be really rough if you don't think that way. Yep.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  So all that babbling came out of you saying, how did it, the Stephen King thing come along? But it's just, it's one more thing in that puzzle where I just feel like.

• 1:44:17Speaker 01

  It all fit together.

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  Whatever reason, you know, so, uh, yeah, just very fortunate.

• 1:44:21Speaker 01

  It felt, it feels very organic, the way it happened.

• 1:44:23Speaker 02

  It was, and that's the best thing about it.

• 1:44:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  And in fact, and then I'll show up about it, what we did interview for the audio version, the woman from Simon Schuster who asked us the questions, she asked Steve, she said, why Rich? And I remember I kind of perked up at my desk.

• 1:44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, why me?

• 1:44:39Speaker 02

  Why me?

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're like, wait a minute.

• 1:44:41Speaker 02

  I never, I never wanted to ask it.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:43Speaker 02

  And at some point, I'm sure I stopped thinking about it.

• 1:44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:45Speaker 02

  But I'm sure before that I was terrified to ask.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:44:47Speaker 02

  And hi- his answer was real matter of fact. He just said, well, I just finished reading,

• 1:44:53Speaker 02

  A Long December, a collection of stories from Rich. He said, and he does everyday people so well in everyday settings. And I thought if anyone could finish Gwendy, it would be him. He writes about the kind of people who, you know, uh, who go shopping and then on their way home, stop and have dinner at Cracker Barrel.

• 1:45:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:11Speaker 02

  Uh, which is where I had breakfast this morning, by the way.

• 1:45:15Speaker 02

  And he, and he just said, so I thought if anyone could finish Gwendy, it was him. And I just thought, oh, that's such a nice answer because I'm sure there's, you know, all these millions of people who are going, it's because they're friends, dummy, because you're not that good of a writer. Which is fine. Think that all you want. I mean, it's probably true, but it was cool to hear that answer that is just like, it, it just naturally came to his mind that, hey, he, he writes about people who are in this story.

• 1:45:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:36Speaker 02

  So let's see if he can.

• 1:45:37Speaker 01

  Then he could match this.

• 1:45:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  That's actually a big compliment. I was just gonna say, what a compliment. A huge compliment.

• 1:45:41Speaker 02

  Well, that's what I was like, I was like, I owe that lady like flowers and candy.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  You're like, thank you for asking that.

• 1:45:46Speaker 02

  I think to this day, I never would have asked him.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Speaker 02

  How do you ask?

• 1:45:49Speaker 01

  It would have been in your head, but it never would have come out.

• 1:45:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it was cool that, that, I'm sure I hung on, you know, I hung up when it was all done and I went in the house and like, he, he gave it to me because he thought if anyone could, it would be me. I probably told everyone I know that.

• 1:46:03Speaker 01

  I would.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  Including people like, uh, you know, in line at 7-Eleven and they.

• 1:46:06Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:46:06Speaker 02

  Probably said, he's a serial killer. Come here.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  They're like, calm down. I'd put it in my bio. I do the same things. I would do the absolute same. I do that with Patricia Cornwell is one of my favorite authors. She's awesome. I read her since I was like 13 years old. And when we got to have her on the show and then she gave me a blurb for the book, I, I tell everybody. I'm like. As you should. I will never get sick of telling everybody that.

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  She's such a strong woman. She pisses some people off because she's so strong and the whole thing. She's like, she's in a lot of ways, she's like Steve where she don't give a shit.

• 1:46:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, she really does.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  What she says, and I like that.

• 1:46:38Speaker 01

  And they're from the same class. Yeah. She literally is like Agent Starling. Yeah. Like she talks like her, she sounds like her, like she's awesome. Yep.

• 1:46:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, that's neat.

• 1:46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I, I would be the exact same way. I would never forget that. Now, our last question before we go into a quick, would you rather and to end is, are you actually killing the boogeyman?

• 1:47:00Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:47:02Speaker 02

  Yes, no, maybe.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  I like that. I love it. I like that.

• 1:47:04Speaker 02

  Yes, no, maybe. That's, that's my answer. And it's an honest answer.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  So that's the thing.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  I like that. Yeah, that's great. I like that. That leaves us with a lot.

• 1:47:13Speaker 02

  I mean, that's what's the, the, uh, the thing in the beginning. Um, I never, I can never remember what, what you call the little quotes that you put in the beginning, that front matter stuff. But I said, you can't kill the boogeyman Tommy from Halloween.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  And it's just like, you know, in some ways, like I said, it's, it's, it's just like, it's still that camp, small campfire story. And it's still, Halloween's my favorite horror movie.

• 1:47:33Speaker 01

  I love Halloween.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  Um, I think it always will be because of the nostalgia and just because.

• 1:47:38Speaker 01

  So good.

• 1:47:39Speaker 02

  It, it really does in a lot of ways defines me as a storyteller.

• 1:47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  Which is just, um, you know, I'm gonna try to show you as little as possible to scare you. But every once in a while, I'm gonna jump you.

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I'm gonna give you a hit.

• 1:47:52Speaker 02

  And to me, the scariest scene from that movie is still Tommy looking out the window from the curtains and seeing him carry that body into that house because what, what he should have, and there's jack-o'-lanterns and stuff. Because you know, what you should be seeing are the falling leaves and maybe a passing car.

• 1:48:07Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:48:07Speaker 02

  Instead you see what should be the impossible and it's not.

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  And you're the only one who saw it. And that's it. You're the only one who saw it. So you're like, no, the boogeyman is real and everyone's telling you it's not. And, and I'll always be Tommy, you know?

• 1:48:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:20Speaker 02

  So I might as well write it and make a living from it.

• 1:48:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hell, yeah. You do it well. I would say so. Yeah. And now we have would you rather?

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:48:28Speaker 01

  Send it out. We always finish on would you rather.

• 1:48:30Speaker 02

  This is where I get canceled somehow. So I'll try to be honest.

• 1:48:35Speaker 01

  You know, we can edit out whatever we need to. Yeah, it's true. Not us. All right. Would you rather know exactly when you're going to die or exactly how you're going to die? We're starting off strong. Yeah. Holy hell.

• 1:48:49Speaker 02

  That's what you're gonna be like, would you rather have peanut and M and M's or?

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  Nah, nah, we go hard here. We go hard.

• 1:48:55Speaker 02

  I would ra- I, I guess I would rather know how.

• 1:48:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  I don't want to know when I'm gonna die.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  At this age, I am thinking about death a lot. My wife's thinking about death a lot. She's like, you know, as a cancer survivor, I don't have the greatest insurance because they don't give it to you.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Oh, God, that's bullshit.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  America. Yeah.

• 1:49:12Speaker 02

  Just like, I got lots of books now. Come on, cause it's passive income. She's like, I don't care about that.

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  I agree though.

• 1:49:19Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I don't want to know when.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  No. I would never want to know that.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  I mean, first, again, with, for someone with a wide open mind, the whole thing of thinking about what comes next is pretty freaky. And I've always been, you know, I, I've always had faith that there's gotta be more. There's gotta be more. We can't just be here to do this dumb shit.

• 1:49:34Speaker 01

  No, there's too much weird shit.

• 1:49:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I, and again, I remember telling Kara when we were like really young, just having those heavy discussions. And I just remember saying, there's been too many moments in my life that shouldn't have happened and where I've had, whether the feeling or the thought or whatever it is, that there's no way that I should have been capable of it. So there has to be other things going on.

• 1:49:55Speaker 01

  I agree.

• 1:49:56Speaker 02

  That's, that's my thought. And whether it's, you know, to the pessimist who says, well, that's just your comfort thought. I don't have a lot of comfort thoughts. So if it is, it's a, it's a surprise. I just think it's generally how I feel.

• 1:50:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with that. No, I agree for sure.

• 1:50:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  All right, this one's less, uh, heavy, but it's actually pretty, uh, relevant to what we were talking about earlier. Would you rather discover someone has been living secretly in your attic? Or discover someone has been coming into your house every night and leaving before you wake up?

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Well, considering I've imagined both scenarios extensively.

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  Same, same.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  Um, I would rather, yeah, I would definitely rather know that they've been coming in, going out.

• 1:50:35Speaker 01

  Same. Cause I feel like you can put a stop to that.

• 1:50:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can definitely put a stop to it and, um,

• 1:50:43Speaker 02

  yeah, I just, the idea that someone's been there when I've been there all the time and stuff is just too out there for me.

• 1:50:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:49Speaker 02

  But I have imagined both.

• 1:50:51Speaker 01

  I, I have too, often, actually. Yeah, same. I think about that frequently. Yeah. But I'm going same answer. I don't need to know that you've been there the whole time. Yeah. I do weird shit and I say weird shit.

• 1:51:01Speaker 02

  Food and stuff. I mean, you know, my chocolate ice cream stock can be somehow lower and I can accuse Kara and it's fine.

• 1:51:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, whatever. But you can't live up there. No. No. You gotta pay rent.

• 1:51:11Speaker 02

  Especially because the attic is really close to my bedroom.

• 1:51:14Speaker 01

  That's the other thing. Yeah, you're not living up there. No.

• 1:51:16Speaker 02

  And sometimes she actually leaves the latch, the locking latch unlocked. And I'm like, have you, well, I check the basement one and the attic one every night.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:51:23Speaker 02

  And I can't tell you, I can tell you this, twice in the last like two weeks, the basement latch has been open. And I'm like, what the hell are you thinking?

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Kara, Kara, come on.

• 1:51:34Speaker 01

  Yes. Dare you.

• 1:51:35Speaker 02

  So glad I, I made her sit in on this.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  I'm like Fort Knox at night.

• 1:51:40Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  John's always like, are you good? We're fine. I'm like, nope. Yeah. Everything. I double check everything. I double check every window. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Got the sensors on all the windows.

• 1:51:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, we have, we have a great security system too. But for Father's Day, they're, they're always like, you know, we, we hate buying you presents because you're a kid. You go out and get whatever you want. And I'm like, well, you know, a better security system.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  Add one on, more cameras or, yeah.

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  That's a great idea, actually. Another camera. Oh, I love adding cameras. I have cameras all over this.

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  I'm like the least like elitism person. And I'm like, but I would like gates at the driveway.

• 1:52:12Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm like, the whole thing. And I'm like, Kara, and you know, that always leads to, Rich, you would like to have a castle and a moat. And I'm like, I'm not.

• 1:52:20Speaker 01

  Oh, hell, yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's do it. I want to be like Enya. Oh, yeah. Live with my cats in Ireland and a castle. Let's go.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:28Speaker 01

  All right. I feel like I might know the answer to this based off how we started. Would you rather spend one night in a genuinely haunted house like your own? Or one hour alone in the woods, knowing a murderer is somewhere out there?

• 1:52:42Speaker 02

  Oh, the, the haunted house night.

• 1:52:43Speaker 01

  Cause you're doing it.

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I'm doing it. And I just feel like there's, you know, at least with the ghost, you can roll your dice that they're not gonna mess with you.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  Right. They might be.

• 1:52:51Speaker 02

  They might even protect you. They do. And they're supposed to be friendly ghosts.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  It's true.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  My first Halloween costume was Casper, so.

• 1:52:56Speaker 01

  I was just gonna say Casper.

• 1:52:57Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  Everyone remembers the reveal. Can I keep you? Can I keep you?

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Kill me. I showed my girls that recently. Oh, that's an awakening. Cause I was like, this is a moment that you should have to see Devon's how, uh, at 10 years old. Yeah. Like you should do that.

• 1:53:10Speaker 02

  He's a big, uh, Chasing the Boogeyman fan.

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  He tweeted about it one day out of the blue and I was like, dude.

• 1:53:16Speaker 01

  That.

• 1:53:17Speaker 02

  How cool is that? I'm like, I'm like, I don't, I don't have starry eyes because of some of the movie stuff I've done and all. And I'm plus, you know, one of my best buddies is Jonathan Scheck, so an actor. You realize really early on when you grew up with the guy that it's like, you have the smelliest feet and you fart, you fart more than anyone I know.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  So you're real.

• 1:53:33Speaker 02

  So it's like, yeah, I don't care that you were married to Christine the Applegate. You're, you're just like me, dude.

• 1:53:38Speaker 01

  Incredible.

• 1:53:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And through him, I got to meet a bunch of the others and they're the same way.

• 1:53:43Speaker 01

  They're all real.

• 1:53:44Speaker 02

  And some of the women are worse than the guys.

• 1:53:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:46Speaker 02

  So it's like, you know, none of that. But when he posted that, I was like, how cool is that?

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's some that hit different.

• 1:53:51Speaker 02

  Same thing. I'm like Casper, Final Destination.

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:53:54Speaker 03

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 1:53:54Speaker 01

  Idle Hands.

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:53:56Speaker 01

  I think he followed me on Instagram and I talked about it for like.

• 1:53:59Speaker 03

  I was jealous of that one.

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  I was like.

• 1:54:01Speaker 02

  He's a really nice guy.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  And I'm still like, why did you follow me?

• 1:54:03Speaker 03

  I mean, he's a horror lover. Maybe he's into the books.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  He is. He's a good dude. He's a, he's a family guy. He's a dad and, and.

• 1:54:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:09Speaker 02

  And the stuff he posts, I feel like is really honest, unlike some. So, yeah, that's cool.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  I had to repost it and write, can I keep you?

• 1:54:16Speaker 03

  Valid.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  I was like, I'm married.

• 1:54:17Speaker 03

  That's the only appropriate response.

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  But like, I have to write.

• 1:54:19Speaker 02

  My sister still remember my Casper.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:21Speaker 02

  Thing. You know, one of those plastic masks with the elastic.

• 1:54:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:54:24Speaker 02

  Hurt and the whole thing. And I remember biting onto the plastic so much and.

• 1:54:27Speaker 01

  They're so spooky.

• 1:54:28Speaker 02

  They're like, you were so happy. It was your first trick or treating. And for me, being who I am, I'm like, growing up trick or treating, there was nothing better.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:54:36Speaker 02

  There was nothing.

• 1:54:36Speaker 03

  I still love to go trick or treating with your kids. I'm like, I'm not missing it.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  Oh, it's an event.

• 1:54:40Speaker 03

  And I dress up. Yeah.

• 1:54:42Speaker 02

  Well, Kara just told the story of last week about how, you know, where we used to live was a regular neighborhood. And when speeders, we had big packs of us, parents and kids. And when we'd go through and anyone who's, I always had a huge pocket full of candy corn. And I don't like candy corn, but any car that didn't slow down sufficiently when they were passing us got.

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  Got some candy corn.

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  Candy corn. So you would hear like this machine gun.

• 1:55:02Speaker 03

  Nice.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  Then my friends started doing it and you would like, it was just.

• 1:55:07Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that was my, that was my thing. I'm like, you're speeding near my kids, but.

• 1:55:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Halloween's still the greatest night.

• 1:55:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:55:14Speaker 03

  Oh, it's my favorite holiday. Christmas is secondary.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  And you should be driving at like one mile an hour, no matter where you are on Halloween. I won't drive it.

• 1:55:22Speaker 03

  I hate driving on Halloween. I'm too scared. I'm like, respect the holiday.

• 1:55:25Speaker 02

  The only thing bad about our house is no trick or treaters come.

• 1:55:28Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:55:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Cause you know, it's kind of spread out and it's across those roads and no trick or treaters come. And I, every year I say, you know what? We are going to make the greatest haunted house with everything out front.

• 1:55:37Speaker 01

  We're going to attract everyone.

• 1:55:38Speaker 02

  Track trick or treaters. And then I was thinking in the back of my head, but then they're going to have to cross this road. And I'm just like.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  I'm just like, you know what? So she just, we were always the house that everyone came to, just like I wrote about in Chasing. Everyone came to, we had spaghetti, meatballs, we had salad, we had, you know, a big spread and everyone came. And then, you know, the kids got older, stopped trick or treating. We kind of stopped doing that. And then it was just like, her family came over and she's just like, you know, this year, we're going to do it. We're going to have everybody here for Halloween. And I'm like, yes.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:04Speaker 03

  It's the best. Love that.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  I love it. All right. Our next round of Would You Rather is going to be Write or Hell edition. So this is, would you rather lose the first 50 pages of your current manuscript or the last 50 pages?

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  First.

• 1:56:22Speaker 03

  That's what you said. Yeah.

• 1:56:24Speaker 02

  Yeah. Only because by then I've gone over those 50 pages so many times to get to those last 50 pages that I can probably regurgitate it with some level of accuracy.

• 1:56:32Speaker 03

  That makes sense.

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  That's the thing, because it just becomes like.

• 1:56:35Speaker 02

  Cause I've lost a lot of like one page things, like interviews that are done, Q and A's that are done via email.

• 1:56:41Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:41Speaker 02

  I've lost a lot of those and I've like verge of tears because I hate doing them.

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  And then you realize that, wait a minute, I remember that.

• 1:56:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's quick. I know the, I know me. I can answer that. I can do this.

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  So yeah, first page, first picture for sure.

• 1:56:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  You don't want to lose any.

• 1:56:56Speaker 02

  And I'm going to do this again.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  I was like, wait a minute.

• 1:57:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  What everybody's. It's still on here.

• 1:57:04Speaker 03

  All right. How about never be allowed to write horror again, or only be allowed to write horror for the rest of your life?

• 1:57:13Speaker 02

  I think, I think never be allowed to, because I think that my definition, my boundaries of horror are pretty broad.

• 1:57:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:57:20Speaker 02

  You know, like I, I can write, like, I, I feel like a lot of, like, I wrote a novella called The Girl on the Porch, which is just very much, um, Harlan Coben, John Sanford territory. It's suburban suspense, but everyone still calls it horror.

• 1:57:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  I, I still think Chasing the Boogeyman in a lot of ways is more of a thriller than it is a, a traditional horror novel.

• 1:57:41Speaker 01

  It can like, kind of sit on both sides.

• 1:57:43Speaker 02

  I think it straddles. So I, yeah, I, I would continue to be the stubborn guy who was like, well, it's still hard. I mean, it's still hard because of blank.

• 1:57:51Speaker 03

  There you go. It's a cheat code.

• 1:57:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:52Speaker 03

  I like it.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:54Speaker 03

  That's a good way of saying it.

• 1:57:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is. How about you? I mean, I was saying only be allowed to write horror for the rest of my life.

• 1:58:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:00Speaker 01

  Cause I got scared with the never being able to again.

• 1:58:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 03

  But you found a cheat code now. So.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  That's a good cheat code.

• 1:58:05Speaker 03

  I like it. You're basically just saying the, the other answer.

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  That's the cool thing about horrors. The rules are really.

• 1:58:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can accept it.

• 1:58:12Speaker 02

  And especially supernatural. I, again, Widows Point is the only supernatural thing I've really written in, at length. And again, I, you know, not the brightest. I just kind of hit myself in the head when I was done. And I'm like, dude, why'd you wait this long? That's the cool thing about supernatural. There really are no rules.

• 1:58:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:58:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  You can do this and you can do that. And I'm like, and with books like these, as you know, there are some pretty strict.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:58:33Speaker 02

  If you, if you want the reader to really be carried, you got to be logical.

• 1:58:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  In a lot of places.

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:58:38Speaker 02

  Um, with Widows Point, we had none of that. And I just remember we had such freedom from that. And so that's why I want to go back to that world again at some point. But yeah, I, uh, you know, the only, yeah, I mean, I, westerns, you know, I, I love westerns, but I'm not going to write. Went too much research. I've got a romance in me at somewhere.

• 1:58:55Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  I've got a love story in there somewhere.

• 1:58:57Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 1:58:58Speaker 03

  I love that. Right about you and Kara's love story. I want to know all about it.

• 1:59:01Speaker 02

  You are. When you read, when you read the next one, you'll read much now.

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  Perfect.

• 1:59:05Speaker 02

  You'll, you'll, people, somebody said that in a Instagram comment recently. They're like, and especially, they're talking about the characters and especially Kara, I feel like I had such an insight to your relationship.

• 1:59:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:59:15Speaker 02

  And, and how she, you know, reacts to you. And I was just like, because I wrote, I definitely wrote about it, you know, half the time she's putting up with me and trying to rein me in and being like, no, that's really not a good idea, Rich. And those kinds of things. So, um, yeah, even in the third book, I'm, you know, there's a lot of like, if I do this, she's going to kill me.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:59:36Speaker 02

  Um, but ultimately I have to.

• 1:59:39Speaker 01

  I can do it.

• 1:59:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. So a lot of the stuff with Kara and I is just spot on where it's just like, you know, when you've known someone for, how many years?

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  You're like counting in your head.

• 1:59:49Speaker 02

  Like 45 years.

• 1:59:51Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:59:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:59:53Speaker 03

  That's beautiful. I love love.

• 1:59:54Speaker 02

  Maybe not quite 45, but close. And yeah. So yeah, yeah. I mean, just, you know, put a medal on her chest right now. God bless her. Cause yeah, I'm a pain in the ass.

• 2:00:06Speaker 03

  But you admit it. See, that's the good thing.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:08Speaker 03

  You're a pain in the ass.

• 2:00:09Speaker 02

  I, I, I, yeah, I am like the ultimate work in progress.

• 2:00:13Speaker 03

  Not everybody knows they're a pain in the ass. So that's a good thought.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:16Speaker 02

  Well, it took me a while. I think I always knew down deep, but yeah, it took me a while. And she, she will describe me. She will say, he is the most mature person I know and the most immature person I know.

• 2:00:26Speaker 03

  That's my husband to a T.

• 2:00:28Speaker 02

  That dynamic.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  You know?

• 2:00:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. That dynamic, I feel like that's gotta be a good thing, right?

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. You don't want too much of it there. You know, at least you get both.

• 2:00:36Speaker 02

  I will say that. I'm like, imagine being married to a guy with patches on his elbows of his jacket. And he loves going to dinner parties and talking politics and this and this and this. And I'm like, you would kill him. You would strangle him in his sleep.

• 2:00:50Speaker 03

  100%.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  Where's the fun in that?

• 2:00:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. And she's like, well, but I'd still like to.

• 2:00:57Speaker 02

  But if he didn't wear a hat everywhere and he didn't, you know, he didn't come out with like the, the worst off color jokes at the worst times, sometimes that would be good too, Rich.

• 2:01:07Speaker 03

  Keeps you on your toes, right?

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Uh, would you rather write the greatest book of your career, but nobody reads it? Or write a book that you secretly think is the worst of your career and have it become your most successful?

• 2:01:23Speaker 02

  You know, I'd rather write the greatest book.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:25Speaker 02

  Cause yeah, I mean, if, uh, when I turn a book in, you know, I never, like I said, I'm not one of those writers who's like, everyone's going to love it.

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:01:33Speaker 02

  I am just like, again, hopefully if they hate it, hopefully they don't hate it until they bought it.

• 2:01:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:38Speaker 02

  They don't figure that out before they've actually.

• 2:01:40Speaker 03

  I get the sale.

• 2:01:40Speaker 02

  Cast in. Um, it really is like, I, I always say that. I'm like, all right, this is the best I could do right now. So I'm happy with it.

• 2:01:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  And that same thing, when I do that final edit, I tried to teach Billy, you know, I'm like, look, you're going to edit right until the very end. He's a copy edit. And then you're going to, you know, get the design pages and da, da, da. I said, and then you're going to freak out because you're going to realize I just sent back, you know, 350 pages with marks on 110 of them.

• 2:02:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:08Speaker 02

  And they're going to print next week.

• 2:02:09Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02:10Speaker 02

  And I'm like, that's why I don't read them when they come out, you know?

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  So.

• 2:02:13Speaker 02

  And I'm like, cause I don't want to know what I would change. And I'm just like, yeah. So I'm, when I'm the happiest I can be with it at that point, then I'm done. And I just say, hey, if the readers, you know, respond to it, that's wonderful. If they don't, that's okay. There's going to be another one. And, and some writers like, don't believe that. They're like, I don't believe it. I, you know, and I'm like, I genuinely feel that way.

• 2:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:02:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Which is, which is a, again, a gift.

• 2:02:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's how you have to go into it, I feel like.

• 2:02:37Speaker 02

  But I feel like so many writers tell me otherwise. And I'm just like, well then I'd hate to be in your shoes because I would never be happy with anything. And I would always be kind of looking over my shoulder at what I should have done differently. And I'm just like, I, you know, I, Billy, when Billy does appearances with me, he literally is like, dad, you need to pick up the book so you remember the characters' names and stuff. Well, Kara asked me that. Do you have, do you have to refresh yourself on any of the Boogeyman stuff? I'm like, it's me. No. And finally, in this case, I don't.

• 2:03:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know.

• 2:03:03Speaker 03

  That was the genius of it.

• 2:03:04Speaker 02

  I remember the detective's name and everything else and Carly, you know, and all that. I'm like, yeah, thank God. So, but with other books, yes.

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:11Speaker 02

  I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, and readers are like, how can you do it? I'm like, they're gone, man.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:17Speaker 02

  I'm like, I'm on to the next world now.

• 2:03:18Speaker 01

  Well, you read them like a hundred thousand times during the editing process, but by that time you're like, I don't want to read it again.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  So if I genuinely felt like I wrote the best book, I would be so happy.

• 2:03:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:29Speaker 02

  And if no one read it, I'd be like, that's all right.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  That's how I feel. Cause I'm like, I would just be like, well, that's my favorite book.

• 2:03:35Speaker 03

  Is what it is.

• 2:03:35Speaker 01

  It's fine. Cause I wrote it and it's here and it exists.

• 2:03:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Whatever. Yeah.

• 2:03:40Speaker 03

  I get it.

• 2:03:40Speaker 01

  I would feel that exactly.

• 2:03:41Speaker 02

  And Kara goes through that phase with me too, where it's just like, you know, how, how is it going? It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. It's all right. You know, I don't know if anyone's going to like it. And then when I am finally ready to turn it in, she's always overjoyed at the, you know what? I like it.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:55Speaker 02

  I like it. I'm okay with it. So you know, hopefully they like it. If they don't, I like it.

• 2:03:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:59Speaker 03

  And John always loves when I get to that point. Yeah.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:02Speaker 03

  Cause there's moments where I'll wake up and like reread what I wrote. And there's some days that I'll look at it and I'm like, are you okay? Like, did you stroke out while writing this? This is horrible. Like who wrote this?

• 2:04:13Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:04:14Speaker 03

  And then the next day I'll wake up and read, and read something and be like, oh my God, did I write this? Like, it's just like, who wrote that?

• 2:04:20Speaker 02

  And isn't it even worse when it's about the language as opposed to the plot or the story?

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  It's like, cause you know, I try to write so it's very readable. So you don't see the work and it's just like, you know, hey, I didn't have to stop and look up any words and da, da, da. And I read 10 pages before I knew it. So then when I read it and it's the language.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:37Speaker 02

  And it's stilted here, or it's just like, I'm like, I'm like, there's no flow. There's no melody here. I suck.

• 2:04:42Speaker 03

  Who did that?

• 2:04:45Speaker 01

  Like someone got on my computer and did this. This is awful.

• 2:04:47Speaker 00

  What the hell?

• 2:04:48Speaker 01

  And it's the same one. I like it. Sometimes I'm like, somebody got in here and wrote an amazing paragraph.

• 2:04:53Speaker 02

  Like that, that sentence really sings.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:04:55Speaker 02

  I wonder how many times they did it because I don't remember.

• 2:04:58Speaker 00

  Who was that?

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  So now we're going to go to the boogeyman portion of it.

• 2:05:03Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:05:04Speaker 01

  All right. So would you rather it be that Joshua Gallagher is real? And he wants to kill you? Or that Joshua Gallagher is real and wants to be your bestie?

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  Well, in an act of self preservation, I'd rather he wants to be my bestie.

• 2:05:26Speaker 01

  I think that's very valid.

• 2:05:28Speaker 00

  I would go for that.

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  You don't want to be his bestie, but.

• 2:05:31Speaker 00

  Like shit might get weird, but probably better than being killed.

• 2:05:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I have the genuine thoughts of, you know, if these books attracted the wrong person and all that.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  Especially when I'm taking the trash out, honestly.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  I'm sure. Yeah.

• 2:05:44Speaker 02

  I'm just like, because that would be.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  It's gotta be in your head.

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  That would be the cinematic.

• 2:05:48Speaker 01

  Oh, absolutely.

• 2:05:49Speaker 02

  You know, all those serial killers that want to be remembered and want to be news items and the whole thing. That would be the way to do it is to copy off the book and

• 2:05:56Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:05:57Speaker 02

  All the public proclamations of my dumb ass saying, taking the trash out is terrifying for me, yet I still do it. So why not? You know, it's the perfect lion weight, but.

• 2:06:06Speaker 01

  Just so you know, he has a taser with him when he does it. So.

• 2:06:09Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm ready to run. I'm alert. I'm.

• 2:06:11Speaker 01

  He's heavily armed as he takes out the trash.

• 2:06:13Speaker 02

  Twelve years old when I'm taking the trash out.

• 2:06:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  So yeah, I would rather he wants to be my buddy and I'm just like, oh God, I got a pest.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:20Speaker 02

  Who wants to eat my, you know, kidney, but.

• 2:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, but like, I won't let him.

• 2:06:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:23Speaker 00

  We'll figure it out.

• 2:06:24Speaker 02

  Care protect me.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:26Speaker 00

  He won't. Your besties.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:06:28Speaker 00

  All right. This one's a little more intense. You receive a letter from Joshua Gallagher that just says, I know. Or would you rather wake up and find a Polaroid of yourself sleeping just tucked on your nightstand?

• 2:06:41Speaker 02

  The letter.

• 2:06:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'd take the letter.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, the letter. And I don't even care what he does. And there's plenty of stuff he could be talking about probably.

• 2:06:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  In my brain, including some messed up stuff I've probably forgotten about.

• 2:06:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:50Speaker 02

  I know I haven't killed anybody, so it's not that.

• 2:06:52Speaker 01

  So that's good.

• 2:06:53Speaker 02

  But yeah, the Polaroid.

• 2:06:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:55Speaker 02

  Those again, those are, again, that's the kind of storytelling stuff that is just, that rocks my world.

• 2:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, same.

• 2:07:02Speaker 02

  You know, the fact that someone was there when I didn't know it and left this memento, the fact that.

• 2:07:07Speaker 00

  That's the scariest thing I've ever heard.

• 2:07:09Speaker 02

  All of us. Yeah.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  That was, that was drawn partially from one of my books, actually.

• 2:07:13Speaker 00

  Yep. Yeah.

• 2:07:13Speaker 02

  All of that stuff.

• 2:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, you guys must have fun making up these questions.

• 2:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:18Speaker 02

  Because they're really good, but they're also messed up.

• 2:07:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:07:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's like us.

• 2:07:22Speaker 01

  They're fun.

• 2:07:23Speaker 02

  I'm gonna be asking my friends this all week. Would you rather?

• 2:07:25Speaker 01

  Would you rather do this?

• 2:07:26Speaker 00

  Like, can I get a copy of this list?

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  You get to know people when you ask this question.

• 2:07:30Speaker 02

  I won't forget the list, trust me.

• 2:07:32Speaker 01

  And I think that's our last question.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  That is it. Yeah.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:35Speaker 02

  Good.

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  Thank you so, I know you're like, don't scare me.

• 2:07:37Speaker 02

  No more than this.

• 2:07:40Speaker 02

  I was waiting for the, what if, you know, the Swedes love candy. So what if? If you had to have this bag of candy or that.

• 2:07:45Speaker 00

  Oh, that's tough.

• 2:07:46Speaker 01

  Swedish candy is the best.

• 2:07:48Speaker 00

  I take it all.

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, truly.

• 2:07:49Speaker 02

  We're all about food and all that stuff.

• 2:07:51Speaker 01

  Oh, hell yeah.

• 2:07:51Speaker 00

  We have a whole spread waiting.

• 2:07:53Speaker 02

  Wherever we travel, it's all about finding the good food spot and, uh, you know, when my son was playing lacrosse, I was texting like the commentators who I knew from, you know, other things and being like, you travel everywhere. Where's the best food I can get at Notre Dame? And where's, you know, where's the best pizza here? We found a great pizza spot in, uh, Westminster? Yeah. In Maryland, Western Maryland, the other day. And it was just, you would have thought we won the lottery. We're like, eating in the car like teenagers. Because we wanted to get home to the dogs. And we're like, this isn't just good. This is really good.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  Oh, you find a good food spot?

• 2:08:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:25Speaker 00

  I love a fella.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  Oh, I forgot. She bought a piece of, she bought a slice of cheesecake from that restaurant. So that was in the middle part of the car. You got plastic fork.

• 2:08:34Speaker 00

  That's big.

• 2:08:34Speaker 02

  And I opened it and it's half eaten. I'm like, what the hell? She goes, I told you I ate it beforehand.

• 2:08:40Speaker 00

  I had to make sure it wasn't poison.

• 2:08:41Speaker 02

  That's pretty much, we bonded over food right away.

• 2:08:43Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 2:08:44Speaker 02

  As teenagers.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  To be honest. Well, thank you so much for joining us.

• 2:08:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:08:49Speaker 01

  This has been so fun. You are welcome back anytime.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  Thank you. I was gonna say, this is like, this, this, this felt like I just got to hang out with friends.

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  I love that. That's how we felt.

• 2:08:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll come back anytime you guys want. Some weirdo would come on here.

• 2:09:01Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 2:09:01Speaker 02

  Talk about how scared of everything.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  Hell yeah. And everybody check out Killing the Boogeyman. It's coming out October 6th.

• 2:09:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:09:09Speaker 01

  So preorder it, go get it.

• 2:09:10Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  It's awesome. Get the other two books too. I'm telling you, they're awesome.

• 2:09:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  I read them like so long ago. So I was already an OG, like, ready for this.

• 2:09:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you can actually write me and I'll send you signed book plates and all the whole thing. I do that all the time.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. Yeah.

• 2:09:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll figure it out. But, but, but yeah, thank you for having me.

• 2:09:28Speaker 01

  No, thank you for coming.

• 2:09:29Speaker 02

  Happy to do this.

• 2:09:30Speaker 01

  This has been awesome.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  And this, like I said, this just felt like we were hanging out.

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  It really did.

• 2:09:34Speaker 02

  That's like bonus.

• 2:09:35Speaker 00

  Hell yeah. Well, thank you guys so much for listening. We hope you keep listening.

• 2:09:39Speaker 01

  And we hope you.

• 2:09:40Speaker 00

  Keep.

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  It.

• 2:09:41Speaker 02

  Weird. I did it to quit.

• 2:09:44Speaker 01

  No, you're.

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  I didn't know you meant literally.

• 2:09:59Speaker 00

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