The Mysterious Death of Kathleen Peterson (Part 2)

By the time Michael Peterson went to trial, the case had attracted national attention, particularly after details about his personal life came to light, particularly his numerous affairs with men. The case gained even more attention when it was learned that, in 1985, Michael Peterson’s friend Elizabeth Ratliff died under very similar circumstances to those of his wife. With significant evidence against him and no compelling argument for his innocence, Michael Peterson was found guilty of his wife’s murder in 2003. But, as it turned out, that was hardly the end of the story.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 2:02Speaker 00

  Hey weirdos, I'm Alina. I'm Ash. And this is Morbid.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Let's do this. Let's do this. We're in part two, so I feel like we should just get right into it. Yeah. Like I said, part two is gonna be a little bit shorter, but there was like a lot of pre-story to go through in part one. But we're gonna get into some more shocking, or you know, not even more shocking details, but talk about those a little more in depth. Yeah.

• 2:41Speaker 00

  Obviously, the trial. Yeah, get into what the hell happened here. Yeah, which I don't even really know. So nobody knows. No, truly. The law does, but Alfred plays are so confusing to me because the law knows, but but they don't know, kind of. I think the most, the infamous one is the West Memphis Three. Yeah, I actually, I put a little note at the bottom in case anybody's like confused so that we could talk about it a little bit. Because that's one that I fully believe is, uh, they're innocent. Yeah, that's just 100%. We've gone over that. We, you know, if you know, you know our stance. But with this one, I don't know. Yeah, I could go either way on this one. So here's the thing, when we last left off, there were, you know, like I said, shocking

• 3:22Speaker 00

  details emerging in the case, one of which was hard to swallow for those who even previously had every confidence in Michael's innocence. Over a decade earlier, while living in Germany, Michael's friend Elizabeth Ratliff was found dead at the bottom of a staircase in her home. Yeah. And Michael was the last person to see her alive. Unfortunate. And also now was the guardian of her two children. Yes. So once this came to light and, you know, came more out in the public, not only were friends and family members who didn't know that fact shaken up, but the district attorney's office also thought it was pretty suspicious that two women had died under very similar circumstances while in the presence of Michael Peterson. Yeah. Or at least around the time they were in the presence of him.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  So that October, Durham District Attorney Jim Harden petitioned a judge in Texas for an order to exhume Elizabeth Ratliff's body. Damn. And he said it was in an effort to find out whether there are other similarities in the deaths. Now, it wasn't just the court of law and the court of public opinion that were influenced by these new details about Michael Peterson's life. After so many shocking revelations about this man that they thought they all knew very well, unfortunately, the cracks in the Petersons' family bond were also beginning to show and form. After standing by her stepfather for nearly a year, the lingering questions about extramarital affairs, autopsy reports, and now another woman's death became too much for Kaitlyn Atwater to ignore.

• 4:50Speaker 00

  In late October, Kaitlyn filed actually a wrongful death lawsuit against Michael in civil court alleging that he did intentionally, maliciously, willfully, and wantonly assault Kathleen Peterson, thereby causing her death. Damn. Yeah, she declined to speak to the press about the case at the time, but Michael didn't hesitate to provide a response. He said, "I'm really, really saddened that the loving family that Kathleen worked so hard on for 13 years has been ripped apart. The police have gotten to Kaitlyn and gave her their side. I'm sorry for Margaret, Martha, Clayton, and Todd because not only have they lost a mother, now they've lost their sister as well. It is a family disaster." Oh damn. Which is really fucking sad.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's like, you can't blame anybody for looking at the pieces of the puzzle and coming to a conclusion. No, that's what, you do. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, I can't, I can understand all the sides of this. Like, I can understand the people that are still standing by him and I can understand how she would decide she wasn't going to anymore. Yeah. Like, I can understand. All of that. All of it. And you also have to understand that, like, you know, Kathleen may have been, played a stepmother role in Clayton and Todd and, and Margaret and Martha's lives, but she was Kaitlyn's mother. And she is Kaitlyn's mother. That's the thing, so that is like, uh, you know, that's a different level. Yeah. You know?

• 6:14Speaker 00

  So Michael did his best to continue framing himself as an unfair victim, but if he was hoping to gain more support from the public, his behavior the following month did not do much to win him any new supporters. Uh oh. In mid-November, just a few weeks after Kaitlyn's $10,000 civil suit against Michael was made public, the press started reporting an even larger intra-family fight, this time over Kathleen's life insurance policy. Oh, that's when things get yucka. You're also just handing them a motive that they didn't previously have on a silver platter. Sure. So despite having been indicted for her murder, Michael argued that he should be entitled to the $1.4 million payout, which because of his status would otherwise go

• 6:58Speaker 00

  to her daughter and her ex-husband Fred Atwater. Oh man. The thing was Kathleen had made Fred and Kaitlyn the beneficiaries of the policy and she hadn't changed the policy prior to her death, but Michael was arguing that, quote, "Kathleen made her feelings very clear when she divorced Fred, inferring that she wanted nothing more to do with Fred, so he said that he should be entitled to the money." Oof. That, it gets yucka when you do that. It sure does. And maybe to some, that might have seemed like a trivial matter, but for the prosecution, like I just said, it was one more potential motive for Kathleen's murder. Oh, yeah. At the time of her death, Michael, like I said, was in negotiations to sell the

• 7:40Speaker 00

  film rights to his last novel, or his latest novel, but that deal was only bringing in $600,000. And obviously, I'm only saying only because Kathleen's job was potentially at risk at this time and Michael had no regular income, so a $1.4 million payout looked like a pretty decent motive. Yeah. With that $600,000 aside. Of course. Now, throughout the investigation, Margaret and Martha had stood by Michael and completely believed his innocence. So when the district attorney requested to have their mother's remains exhumed for a second autopsy, they were vocally resistant. Margaret told a reporter in February 2003, "My first gut reaction was to say no. There are no words to explain how I feel, but we knew that dad had nothing to hide."

• 8:25Speaker 00

  But after giving it some thought, the two sisters decided to give their approval for the exhumation, reasoning that if nothing else, it would just put to rest rumors about their mother's murder at the hands of who the man they now considered their father. Mm-hmm. But unfortunately, what they ended up with was the exact opposite of what they'd intended. In mid-April 2003, Elizabeth Ratliff's remains were exhumed from her grave in Texas and then shipped to the state medical examiner's office in Durham, where a second autopsy was performed to determine cause of death. And this just gets so, I can't imagine your family member being buried and exhumed and reburied and re-autopsied and that's just a lot. That just like opens up a whole new.

• 9:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're just never allowed to. To rest. To really put it to rest. So when, when Elizabeth's death was initially reported in 1985, it was appeared, it was believed to have been the result of natural causes of brain aneurysm. So there was no reason for the individual performing the autopsy to suspect foul play back then. And on top of that, the individual conducting the autopsy actually had no experience with homicide cases up to that point. I'm sorry, what? Yeah. So he might not have recognized signs of murder. Yeah, no. Even if it was suspected at the time, which again, it wasn't, but that's interesting. That is interesting. After conducting as thorough an autopsy as was possible on Elizabeth Ratliff's

• 9:51Speaker 00

  remains, Dr. Deborah Radish concluded that Elizabeth Ratliff's death was inconsistent with a fall down the stairs. Rather, it is indicative of multiple blunt force impacts, either from blows to the head caused by a blunt object or by the head being forcibly struck against a hard surface.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  Well, that sounds familiar.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  It sure does.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  What the fuck?

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Elizabeth's injuries were remarkably similar to Kathleen's injuries. The doctor continued, "It is my further opinion that these injuries were incurred while Mrs. Ratliff was, uh, Mrs. Ratliff, excuse me, was alive and are of sufficient severity to have caused her death."

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Holy shit.

• 10:34Speaker 00

  As far as Dr. Radish could tell, the intercranial hemorrhages initially identified as Elizabeth's cause of death were the result of blunt force trauma, not natural causes like previously believed.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Shit.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:48Speaker 01

  What a fucking, like, that would be a gut punch.

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Now, the thing that confuses me a little bit, and I figured like you might be able to explain this to me, so, cause it says, uh, in the quote, like, "could have been blows to the head, uh, by the head being forcibly struck against a hard surface." If you're falling down the stairs, is your head not being struck against a hard surface multiple times?

• 11:14Speaker 01

  Not forcibly. Forcibly would indicate that somebody was forcing your head into a...

• 11:20Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  If you're just falling, it's a passive hit. When you're falling without someone, forcibly it would be taking your head and slamming it forcibly into it.

• 11:30Speaker 00

  So there's like more inertia involved.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Falling somewhere is a passive act.

• 11:34Speaker 00

  Gotcha.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  All right. Well, yeah, that changed things.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Sure does.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  So she didn't have the authority to change the initial findings because it was a German case.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  But Dr. Radish did indicate that if she did have the, had the authority to do so, she would revise the, the cause of death to homicide.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 11:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  That's a big statement.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  It is. Now, by that time, Margaret and Martha Ratliff had already lost so much.

• 12:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:01Speaker 00

  Their father had died in combat, their mother had died, and Kathleen, their stepmother, had now died under mysterious circumstances. And their aunts and adopted sister Caitlin, I don't, it doesn't seem like they were speaking to each other at this point. I think just, that's a massive disagreement, obviously.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  On top of that, they were now also facing the possibility of losing the only father figure left in their lives to a potential life sentence, should he be convicted.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  That's horrifying.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  That is possibly why, when the results of Elizabeth's autopsy were made public, Margaret and Martha rejected the implication that Michael was somehow responsible for the death, and they still chose to stand by him. Now, in the 16 months since Kathleen's death, the Peterson family had learned, obviously, a great deal more about Michael Peterson than they ever thought they would.

• 12:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:49Speaker 00

  And more about the death of their loved ones than they ever wanted to know. Or not that they ever wanted to know, but just that they ever would expect to happen.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  That they were ever asking for.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  To some, like Caitlin, the lies, the deceit, and the evidence of violence were enough to convince her of Michael's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. But others remained skeptical and chose to trust the man that they knew and loved, hoping that the long awaited trial would be Michael Peterson's opportunity to prove his innocence. With everybody having chosen their sides, at that point, all that was left was for a jury to hear the arguments. Now, it took more than a month to select the jury for such a high-profile case, but finally, on July 1st, 2003, opening statements were made in the state of North Carolina versus Michael Peterson. After 18 months of investigation and of pre-trial arguments, the prosecution led by Jim Harden believed they had a simple and pretty straightforward case that backed up,

• 13:44Speaker 00

  that was backed up by evidence. He told the jury, "They said it's an accident, a fall down the stairs, and we say it's not. We say it's murder." Pretty simple.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, that's easy to understand.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Now, holding what the prosecution believed to be the murder weapon in his hand, a four-foot brass fireplace tool known as a blow poke, Harden told the jury that they would be hearing a lot about a couple's storybook romance, how they were soulmates and best friends, and how nobody could believe Michael Peterson could have harmed or killed his wife. But Harden said, "This case is all about things not appearing as they seem." He said, "Michael Peterson himself was not what he seemed, and that was the motive for murder." According to his theory, Michael killed Kathleen after she had discovered that he was a closeted gay man and had also been having sex with men at various points during their marriage, all of which he had kept a secret up to that point. Those are, that's his argument.

• 14:40Speaker 00

  I'm not saying any of that. While the family might not have found the revelations about Michael's sexuality shocking, Caitlin was convinced that her mother would have been devastated had she found out. She said, "I genuinely cannot believe that she could know anything about that. I know from every value she's taught me, the way that I was raised, that's not something she would have been willing to accept." Now, I want to be clear, I don't think she's talking about like, Michael, like, being gay or anything like that. I think she's talking about infidelity and an affair.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  I think that makes perfect sense.

• 15:09Speaker 00

  I just want to make that crystal clear.

• 15:10Speaker 01

  She would not have accepted her partner having an affair.

• 15:12Speaker 00

  Because also, she hadn't in the past.

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Caitlin, unfortunately, her first, her first husband had an affair and she had a marriage over.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Exactly, and she did not accept it, so.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  So, just making that clear. Now, if that wasn't motive enough, there was also the life insurance policy, the prosecution was arguing. $1.4 million would have gone a long way to paying down their debt that they were in, and they were in a good amount of debt.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:35Speaker 00

  All of this, Harden assured the jury would be supported by the evidence, but he was banking on more than that. He said, "I think it's all about the exercise of your reason and common sense. When you get right down to it, it's about her. Please remember, it's ultimately about her."

• 15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Meaning Kathleen, obviously.

• 16:02Speaker 00

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• 19:08Speaker 00

  Now, in his opening statements, defense attorney David Rudolph had an entirely different story to tell the jury. He started by saying nothing at all and instead playing the recordings of Michael's call to 911, which was, it's a harrowing call.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm sure.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  I hate having to listen to 911 calls.

• 19:26Speaker 01

  I know. I, I do not like a 911.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  It feels weirdly invasive.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  It does.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  I think the only time, the only time it ever made its way into a morbid episode was the weepy voice killer and it was because of him.

• 19:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, just because of the voice.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Other than that, I, both of us are not interested.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 19:42Speaker 00

  Now, in the 90 minutes that followed, though, Rudolph went over the prosecution's theory, point by point, explaining why and how they were wrong about Michael Peterson. According to Rudolph, Michael and Kathleen's romance was, quote, "a love that absolutely everyone who saw them or knew them recognized and envied." Murder wasn't just unsupported by the facts, he said. It was absolutely unthinkable. Kathleen, he said, had taken Valium that day and later in the evening, she had several glasses of wine. So the combination of the two affected her equilibrium, her motor skills. So when she reached the top of the stairs, she was dizzy, she lost her balance, and she fell.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Which is also a pretty compelling argument.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  It is.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Using a projector, he showed the jury a video prepared by one of the experts for the defense, which demonstrated how the fall could have caused the lacerations on Kathleen's scalp.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  According to the video, Kathleen fell backwards on the steps, cracked her scalp on a door molding, fell to the landing, cut her head again on floor molding, got up and slipped, and cut her head once more on the corner of the staircase.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 20:47Speaker 00

  Which, hey, you show it.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  I have to see the video, but I. If you're showing me.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  You know, and it just, I think, just to be clear, like, the staircase kind of goes down and then turns a bit, just to like, so you can kind of picture that a little better.

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:01Speaker 00

  You can also like, look up photographs.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:03Speaker 00

  Rudolph's video and the promised forthcoming evidence supporting their claims weren't all he had planned for the trial. There was also the matter of what he felt was the Durham Police Department's overly enthusiastic pursuit of Michael to what he thought was the exclusion of any other possible scenario.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:19Speaker 00

  He told the jury, "The police had reason to think the worst." Michael Peterson had been critical of the police for years, essentially implying that they'd been waiting for an opportunity to get back at him for his endless opinion pieces in the newspaper criticizing their performance throughout the years.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  And he said, "This was precisely that opportunity."

• 21:38Speaker 01

  I mean, and again, that, when you put it like that, yeah, there's, you've seen that shit happen before.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  There's strong arguments on both sides.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  Now, after a brief break for lunch, the trial did get underway, and the prosecution's first witness, paramedic Jay Rose, who told the jury how he'd found Kathleen's body upon arrival at the Peterson house, testified. According to Rose, the scene immediately struck him as something other than an accident. There was, quote, "an enormous amount of blood," he said, "and Kathleen's injuries were not consistent with a fall." He also confirmed that at the time, Michael was either unwilling or unable to help the paramedics with any information as they tried to revive Kathleen. Which is strange.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  But also, you can be unable versus unwilling.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 22:24Speaker 00

  It's a very stressful situation.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And it's a very fine line.

• 22:29Speaker 00

  When you have to think about a husband finding their wife at the bottom of the stairs, if they are innocent.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:35Speaker 00

  You're gonna be in an emotional state that is indescribable.

• 22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:39Speaker 00

  You know?

• 22:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, I mean, my mom has fallen down the stairs and I've, both Ash and myself are always there when, when, in the aftermath of that.

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  And my dad is always an absolute wreck.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly.

• 22:54Speaker 01

  Like.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  So, it happens.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Now, with the sensational and dramatic opening statements, the first month of the trial was pretty much concerned with the medical findings and the autopsy, information about finances, and the details of the crime scene itself from investigators. It wasn't until early August, when Harden got back to the prosecution's theory for a motive, that things kind of started to take on a more tabloid journalism tone.

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 23:18Speaker 00

  Until that point in the trial, Michael Peterson's bisexuality was only hinted at by the prosecution, but there weren't any real details provided. But then, on August 7th, Harden introduced into evidence the contents of Michael's computer, including an email exchange with a male sex worker who Michael had been planning to meet up with for sex.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Well, that, that changes things.

• 23:42Speaker 00

  It sure does.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 00

  Now, the introduction of contents of Michael's computer was a direct challenge to the defense's claim that Michael and Kathleen were happily married.

• 23:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  The prosecution claimed Kathleen hadn't known about Michael's bisexuality until the night she died. According to Assistant Prosecutor David Sacks, around 11:00 PM on the night of her death, Kathleen got a call from a coworker who needed to send her a document. So Kathleen gave them Michael's email address, because that was the computer at home. Now, as a result, Sacks said, Kathleen, quote, "had an opportunity to be on the computer and in Michael's email, where she could have discovered the September 2001 email exchange with the male sex worker."

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Eee.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  And it was just one hour later that the medical examiner believed Kathleen was killed.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  That's very compelling.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  That's very compelling.

• 24:31Speaker 00

  Now, the defense quickly shot back at the claim under cross-examination with defense attorney Thomas Mayer, arguing that that scenario laid out a lot of maybes.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Which it does.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  It does, yeah.

• 24:43Speaker 00

  So speculation and hearsay aside, the sexuality angle took hold and the public was hooked. Then, two days later, the jury was introduced to the very male sex worker that Michael had been exchanging emails with.

• 24:56Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 24:56Speaker 00

  I left their name out of this. It's reported on in some places, but I don't know. They might not want to be dragged into this this many years later.

• 25:03Speaker 01

  It's like, yeah.

• 25:04Speaker 00

  Whatever. On the stand, he explained that at the time of his email exchanges with Peterson, he was advertising his services on an escort website for men seeking sex with other men.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 25:14Speaker 00

  He said he received an email from Michael in late August, expressing interest in his services, but ultimately, they never met in person and they never had sex. But they'd talked about it. So, as Thomas Mayer had pointed out, the existence of nearly 3,000 gay and pornographic images on Michael's computer and his email exchanges were not evidence that Michael, or that Kathleen had discovered his bisexuality. That you can't just say that because they existed.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  Just because they're there. And that is true.

• 25:42Speaker 00

  But, for the prosecution, that might not have been the point. By bringing Michael's sexuality into the trial, showing the jury lurid and pornographic images of gay sex at that time, and introducing them to the very male sex worker that Michael had been communicating with, Harden had effectively undermined the perception of the marriage as perfect.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Of course he did.

• 26:03Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Which, like, that was a brilliant tactic from that side of it.

• 26:07Speaker 00

  Unfortunately, it was.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:09Speaker 00

  It also should be said that there's no evidence that Kathleen knew about Michael's interest in men, and the only evidence that she would have objected was offered by Caitlin, who did know her very well, obviously.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  But we don't know. Harden's emphasis on Michael's sexuality obviously was a strategy to inject the jury with a certain amount of doubt and also to sully his character.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Because in 2001, there was no room in public discourse for the subject of open marriages.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  No.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  That was not a thing.

• 26:37Speaker 01

  And now, and even at that time, introducing, like, the, like, anything but a straight marriage or a straight relationship into this is also going to, it was just a different situation.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  It was.

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:51Speaker 00

  And the other thing was, in the minds of a lot of Americans back then, including queer people, being bisexual just meant you were gay.

• 26:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:59Speaker 00

  Nobody.

• 27:00Speaker 01

  It was just like a pit stop on the way.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  Like, nobody could believe that he could be happily married to a woman.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  That he could be attracted to women and men.

• 27:06Speaker 00

  And men.

• 27:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  They were just like, no, you're gay and she's a beard, essentially, is like what people thought back then.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  People were like, bi isn't real.

• 27:12Speaker 00

  And unfortunately, people still think.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, people still think that.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  They do. It also would have been difficult for a lot of people to understand how Michael and Kathleen could have a satisfying, fulfilling relationship unless they were both straight.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:24Speaker 00

  Back then, unfortunately.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Because, again, it's that weird thing that, like, if you're straight, it's not automatically assumed that you're gonna go have an affair with another person that you're attracted to.

• 27:34Speaker 00

  But if you're bi.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  But if you're bi, then obviously, you're not gonna be able to, like, stop yourself from being with the other.

• 27:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  People that you are attracted to. Like, if you're married to a woman, you're not gonna be able to stop yourself from having a relationship with men.

• 27:48Speaker 00

  Because you also like men.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  Because you just have to. And it's like, no, that's literally not how commitment works.

• 27:52Speaker 00

  No, it's not at all.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  It's not how monogamy works.

• 27:55Speaker 00

  Basically, at the end of the day, I think the prosecution was hoping to strengthen their argument with, like, some institutional homophobia.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Absolutely, it feels that way.

• 28:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  And that's my opinion.

• 28:05Speaker 01

  They were just throwing, they were throwing some, some mud on it and seeing what stuck.

• 28:09Speaker 00

  I think there was, I think it was valid to introduce some of that information, obviously, because it's.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  I think it was valid to introduce the idea of an affair.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  As a motive.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Or that he was willing to, I mean, if you're talking, this is me.

• 28:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:24Speaker 01

  If you're talking to anybody about possibly getting together.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  That's an affair.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  That's an affair.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  Yes, I agree.

• 28:31Speaker 01

  That's cheating.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  That's bad.

• 28:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  That doesn't paint you in a good light.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Nope.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  And it doesn't paint your marriage in a good light.

• 28:36Speaker 00

  If you're in a, a monogamous marriage.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  Straight, gay, bi, whatever the situation, if you are outside of your marriage trying to meet up with someone to do that. I mean, it doesn't look good.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And especially not when your partner ends up.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing. It's like, and then you add this on to it. It's like, yeah, that doesn't make you look good, dude.

• 29:00Speaker 00

  I think they just.

• 29:00Speaker 01

  And it doesn't make the marriage look like what you're saying it is.

• 29:04Speaker 00

  No, I think they just went to like the nth degree to prove that.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:07Speaker 00

  Now, despite the lack of evidence that Kathleen knew of or objected to Michael's sexuality, Harden and the rest of the prosecution team was pretty sure it was the trigger for the argument that led to her death. Harden said and argued, she had already been through a previous marriage where infidelity was an issue and she didn't tolerate it. And why would she tolerate it now? There was a trigger and we've contended all along that she must have found something out about this lifestyle that caused it. Now.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  And it's a valid theory.

• 29:33Speaker 00

  It is.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  They would be crazy not to use that.

• 29:37Speaker 00

  Not to present.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:39Speaker 00

  After the, I think the tough thing is though, is that you have no idea if she discovered it or not.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Honestly, that's not the tough thing. That's the brilliant part.

• 29:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the, yeah, yeah.

• 29:48Speaker 01

  You have no evidence that she didn't.

• 29:50Speaker 00

  So it's, it could go either way.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Literally just, of course they're gonna throw that out there. That's a perfect theory to throw out. It fits perfect.

• 29:58Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 29:59Speaker 01

  She's already been cheated on.

• 30:01Speaker 00

  Yup.

• 30:01Speaker 01

  And she showed that she wasn't sticking around. If she got cheated on here and she said, see you later, goodbye.

• 30:07Speaker 00

  And he lost it.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  That's a perfect catalyst for something like this to happen.

• 30:11Speaker 00

  It is true.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  And they can say, yeah, you don't know if she found that though. And you can say, yeah, and you don't know if she didn't.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  She didn't. Right.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  So reasonable doubt.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Boom. Easy.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Well, after three months of testimony, the press described as lurid, graphic, and sometimes nap inducing, which is very rude.

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was like, wow.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Literal murder case. Okay.

• 30:31Speaker 00

  The case did finally come to an end on October 3rd, 2003. It's October 3rd.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  I knew you were gonna say that.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  I had to. After both sides gave their closing arguments, the court adjourned for the weekend and was expecting to resume the following Monday with jury deliberation. However, that Monday morning, Judge Orlando Hudson was informed that one of the jury members had been arrested over the weekend for public intoxication. And when he was put into a cell, the juror told the officer, he was on the Michael Peterson jury and they didn't need to mess with him.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Huh. That's not how that works.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  It's not how that works.

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  Um, it's obviously unusual, but not that unheard of to replace a jury member that late in the trial. But that wasn't the end of it. Immediately after Judge Orlando replaced the jury member who had been arrested, he received a report regarding, as you should.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  That's what alternates are for.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Topical. Uh, immediately after he replaced that jury member though, he received another report regarding another jury member who was said to be a bank teller, who had been heard saying negative things about Peterson, who was a former customer of hers. Or a former customer of theirs.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Here's the thing about people. We're just always gonna people.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  We're always gonna fuck it up.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  It's wild that we can't stop peopling.

• 31:44Speaker 00

  But you know what's crazy?

• 31:45Speaker 01

  Not even in like this situation. They're like, this is so important that you don't fucking run your goddamn mouth. And we're like, totally.

• 31:54Speaker 00

  For sure, for sure, for sure.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  On this book, yes. And then we're just like, gonna go.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  Have you heard?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  It's like, we just can't stop. It's wild.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Well, crazy. That juror was also excused and replaced by an alternate. Cause that's an option.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you don't do the jury thing right, you don't listen to the instructions, you don't follow the law, that's what an alternate is for.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Alternates.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:17Speaker 00

  So finally deliberation could begin, now with two alternates having been placed in.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 32:21Speaker 00

  Now, on October 10th, after three days of exhausting deliberation, the jury emerged to find Michael Peterson guilty. A first degree murder of his wife Kathleen.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  While Michael remained silent about the verdict, David Rudolph expressed his frustrations to the reporters a few minutes later. And he said he was going to appeal as soon as humanly possible. The guilty verdict was obviously accompanied by a sentence of life in prison without the possibility of parole. And Michael was led out of the courtroom in handcuffs and taken to Raleigh Central Prison to begin serving his sentence.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Now, years later, when they were asked about the verdict, several jurors recalled feeling conflicted during deliberations. One juror told NBC News in 2006, I think there were times throughout the trial that I personally moved from one side to the other with regard to guilt or innocence.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Oh, that's like wild to hear.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, cause that's doubt.

• 33:12Speaker 01

  And when someone's going away for the rest of their life, you're like, eee.

• 33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  But again, that's human. It's, I couldn't, being a jury member.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  Oh, worst job in the world.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  High profile case like this, and just like a case, any murder case, I could never do it.

• 33:26Speaker 00

  No.

• 33:37Speaker 00

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• 34:17Speaker 00

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• 35:54Speaker 00

  In the end, the jurors found the prosecution's point though about the Peterson's financial troubles to be compelling. And they were swayed by the testimony given about Michael's infidelity. And they felt the, the biggest thing that the process or the defense was trying to say was like, they were the perfect couple. Nobody would think Michael would do this. All their close friends and loved ones agree that he wouldn't do this. But then you prove that he was willing to have an affair or step outside of his marriage.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  And you prove that, yeah, everybody thought he wasn't capable of this. Everybody thought he wasn't capable of an affair either.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  Everyone doesn't know him.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  That's, that's what you're sewing.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  It's unfortunately pretty perfect. So Michael's first appeal came before the North Carolina Court of Appeals in April 2006. Among other things, his attorney argued that he'd been denied a fair trial due in large part to the extensive and sensational coverage in the press. And the introduction of what he called irrelevant evidence, like Elizabeth Ratliff's death.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Um.

• 36:49Speaker 00

  I feel like that's pretty relevant.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  I feel that.

• 36:52Speaker 00

  Uh, although the three judge panel concluded that there had been certain infractions in the investigation, they ultimately didn't affect the outcome of the trial. So the verdict was upheld. But because one of the judges on the panel dissented, the case was eligible for review by the State Supreme Court. So the next year, the North Carolina State Supreme Court reviewed the appeal submitted by mayor, but again, it was ultimately denied.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Two years after Peterson's failed appeal, with the State Supreme Court, a series of articles in the News and Observer criticizing the State Bureau of Investigation, prompted the state attorney general, Roy Cooper at the time, to open an investigation into the practices and success rates of the SBI.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 37:35Speaker 00

  Among the findings of the investigation was the fact that expert analysts at the SBI were turning in deeply flawed reports and providing counterproductive work on criminal cases.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Or nor.

• 37:49Speaker 00

  Among those analysts who were found to be the most egregious was Duane Dever, whose blood spatter analysis was a critical part of the case against Michael Peterson.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that, that's not good.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  That's why I told you right at the top of part one, that some of this will be called into question.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  So in 2011, uh, in August, David Rudolph filed a motion with the court requesting copies of all the documentation compiled by the state during the investigation of the Peterson case, obviously intending to challenge the ruling.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  As a result, the state hired an independent auditor who discovered that Dever had provided false testimony or misrepresented evidence in at least 34 cases.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  What?

• 38:32Speaker 00

  Including four in which he testified on behalf of the state. One of those cases was Michael Peterson's case.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 38:41Speaker 00

  That's a big fucking deal.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  That's a huge deal.

• 38:43Speaker 00

  That would, that's nuts.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  That's at least something that you go, uh oh.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Uh, uh oh. So the findings of the independent auditor resulted in Michael Peterson's appeal for a new trial being granted. And in December 2011, he was released on bail pending a new trial. But he was placed on house arrest at that point and had to wear like an ankle monitor.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 00

  So now out of jail, he started prepping for the new trial. But the road ahead was, you know, full of pre-trial hearings and motions that delayed things significantly, as always. In November of 2016, Peterson's new lawyer, Mike Klinkossum, moved to have the second trial dismissed based on the delays and the testimony of Dever. But the motion was denied and a trial date was set for May of 2017. Then, just a few months later in February, the district attorney announced that they had reached a plea deal with Michael Peterson and they would not be proceeding with a second trial.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  All of the sudden.

• 39:41Speaker 00

  Huh.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  According to the terms of the deal, Michael would enter an Alfred plea and the exchange would be, yeah, in exchange, he would be sentenced to eighty six months in prison with credit for time served. He had already served ninety nine months almost by that time. So he was not going to have to go back to prison and he would walk away a free man. Now, we said this at the top, you might remember us talking about Alfred pleas from a couple of cases, most notably the West Memphis Three case.

• 40:08Speaker 00

  Basically, by definition, it is a plea, quote, "under which a defendant may choose to plead guilty, not because of an admission to the crime, but because the prosecutor has sufficient evidence to place a charge and obtain a conviction in court."

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  So it's basically saying that the state has enough evidence to convict you, but they're not going to?

• 40:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:28Speaker 00

  It's so strange to me.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  The Alfred plea is weird. I think it's like,

• 40:35Speaker 01

  yeah, that, I mean, that's, it's hard to explain it because it's like you get to maintain your innocence. They say they still think you're guilty. They just don't want to try you again. But to me, it always makes me think you don't want to try them again because you don't have enough.

• 40:47Speaker 00

  You don't have enough to convict.

• 40:48Speaker 01

  Or what you do have is tainted, I think.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Case.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  And that's, I mean, that's what it felt like with the West Memphis Three case to me. I was like, they don't, they don't want egg on their face.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  So it's weird.

• 40:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a strange plea.

• 41:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  So he can maintain his innocence, but the state continues to say, no, you're guilty.

• 41:06Speaker 00

  But then it's weird, too, with an Alfred plea, because you're like, so you're just letting someone you think is a murderer walk out?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that is.

• 41:14Speaker 00

  Like, that doesn't feel realistic.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  That never makes sense to me.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  And again, not to keep going back to it, but like with the West Memphis Three case, I thought that too. I was like, you're just letting three child, the people who you think viciously murdered three eight year olds.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  Walk out.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  You wouldn't do that.

• 41:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  If you really thought they were guilty.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  And in this case, you believe.

• 41:34Speaker 00

  Because the part of the prosecution's argument was that he, they were trying to imply that he had also killed Elizabeth Ratliff.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:41Speaker 00

  So it's like, you think that he killed two women who he was involved with or, you know, friendly with?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:47Speaker 00

  And you're just gonna let him walk free?

• 41:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 41:50Speaker 00

  I don't get.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

• 41:51Speaker 00

  It's strange. Now, since Michael's released in 2017, several articles, television shows and documentaries have focused on the case. The Alfred plea should have been the end of the story, but there have been other theories put forward to explain Kathleen's death. You mentioned this, I think, in the beginning of part one. Among the more interesting and bizarre explanations is that Kathleen's death was not alcohol related or the result of an attack, an attack by an intruder, but was in fact caused by an owl that somehow got into the Peterson's home. Now, this, it sounds crazy, but listen, I don't, I'm not saying I believe this, but I'm like, it's not.

• 42:30Speaker 01

  Where it came from.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Nobody like plucked it out of thin air. The theory was put forth by the Peterson's friend and neighbor, actually Larry Pollard, who was a lawyer that was unconnected to the original investigation and the trial. According to his theory, this is a quote, Kathleen was heading back into the Peterson's house when an owl silently swooped down and struck her head, digging its talons deep into her scalp. She moved inside to escape the bird, leaving a bit of blood outside. But because she had taken Valium and had been drinking, the attack caused her to lose her balance and fall down the stairs. This explained the fall injuries and the injuries to Kathleen's scalp. Now, it's unclear what prompted him to conceive of this theory, but interestingly enough, there was a bird

• 43:14Speaker 00

  feather discovered on her body when she was found.

• 43:18Speaker 01

  Okay, that's kind of crazy.

• 43:19Speaker 00

  Isn't that weird?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  That is kind of crazy.

• 43:21Speaker 00

  Regardless of its origins, by the time Pollard did put his theory forward, Michael's case was already entering final arguments and the defense was obviously very limited at that point to enter new evidence. And

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:32Speaker 00

  This, I don't know how this would have sat with the jury. But while most people dismissed the theory as a fantasy, David Rudolph thought it was pretty compelling. He said, "The feather that was in her hand, I just didn't focus on that. I figured it was from a downcomfitter. I take full responsibility for not having thought of that. And I give Larry Pollard credit for coming up with it. I just wish he had realized it six months earlier."

• 43:56Speaker 00

  But nobody knows what that feather, it's a bird feather.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  That's cra- that's actually kind of cra- and also, it's like, why didn't anyone question a feather and just assume it was a downcomfitter? Where was the downcomfitter?

• 44:06Speaker 00

  Well, that's, I have no idea.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  Huh.

• 44:09Speaker 00

  Isn't that strange?

• 44:10Speaker 01

  That is very, that's interesting. That's, it's kooky, but it, it's kooky.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  When I first read it, I was like, what the fuck? Where are we going here? But then when I, they were like, no, she was discovered with a bird feather at the time. Like,

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:21Speaker 00

  I was like, oh, huh. Now, owls aside, as far as the Durham police and the district attorney's office are concerned, the Kathleen Peterson case is solved and her killer has been identified and punished to the extent of that the court deemed appropriate. Following his release from prison, Michael returned to Durham and moved back in with his ex-wife, Patty, actually. He lived with her for two years until she died from a heart attack in April, 2021. Since then, Michael's lived by himself in Durham with the support of most of his family. Unfortunately, as of now, he has not reconciled with Caitlin and she moved out of state after the trial.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Damn.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  I hope she's able to find some peace.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  Because that's, that's tough.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  That is tough.

• 45:02Speaker 00

  That's a lot.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  No matter what, like, that man was a stepfather to you at some point.

• 45:06Speaker 00

  When you lost a relationship.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Killed your mother.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  You used to have.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  And you lost a relationship you used to have. And then not only that, she, from, at least during the trial and everything going on, she believed he had killed her mother. And now he gets to walk out a free man?

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  Like, that's a lot for her to sit with.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  So.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  And then.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  So sad.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  If Michael is innocent, just living in Durham, and like, people think you might have killed your wife.

• 45:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, that sucks.

• 45:32Speaker 00

  That's rough. This is, it's just a tragic.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  It really is.

• 45:35Speaker 00

  And I feel badly for Kathleen. She lost her life and now it's just the subject of a bunch of people wondering what happened.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Theorizing.

• 45:44Speaker 00

  And theorizing.

• 45:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:46Speaker 00

  You know, like, I don't think you should be laid to rest with all of those questions.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Well, you always, that's the thing. You want justice to be served one way or the other.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  Right.

• 45:53Speaker 01

  You know?

• 45:54Speaker 00

  And I think in this case, it's like, the state says justice is served, but it's like, is it?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  Alfred pleas are just so tough.

• 46:01Speaker 01

  Alfred pleas weird me out, man.

• 46:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, they're strange.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  They really are.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  But that is the mysterious death of Kathleen Peterson.

• 46:11Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  And that's a crazy story.

• 46:14Speaker 00

  More famously known as the staircase murder.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:17Speaker 00

  And there's, that's, that documentary we referenced a few times. It's called The Staircase.

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 46:21Speaker 00

  It's been talked about for years and years at this point.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  So I'm interested to hear what you guys think.

• 46:27Speaker 01

  That's nuts.

• 46:28Speaker 00

  Do you have a fucked fact for us?

• 46:30Speaker 01

  I was just looking one up, actually.

• 46:31Speaker 00

  Give us a fucked fact.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Um, so I have a, I have like a, oh, I didn't have a, it isn't a fucked fact.

• 46:37Speaker 00

  It can be a fun fact.

• 46:38Speaker 01

  It can be a fun fact.

• 46:39Speaker 00

  I have always have to do fucked facts.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  I'm having a tough week.

• 46:42Speaker 00

  Kids are going back to school.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Kids are going back to school.

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Hard adjustment period.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  I'm struggling here emotionally, so I'm going to give you a fun fact.

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Honestly, though, wait, like, any other mamas out there or even daddies or caregivers?

• 46:53Speaker 01

  Are you struggling?

• 46:54Speaker 00

  Having a hard time, like, with their kids, like,

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, tell me about it.

• 46:56Speaker 00

  Not wanting to go back to school or, like, separation anxiety.

• 46:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, because we're struggling.

• 47:00Speaker 00

  I feel like caregivers have to stick together.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. And that's why, again, not a bad, that's why we said about Annalise.

• 47:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:08Speaker 01

  Um, along the Waves app.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Which I know, I think, like, you, you guys, like, flock to.

• 47:13Speaker 00

  Because it really shut it down.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Which is amazing, because it means a lot of people are going.

• 47:17Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Um, but that's the kind of shit, that's why she made that.

• 47:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  But yeah, it's been a rough week.

• 47:23Speaker 00

  You're gonna drop a little message in there.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  I think I immediately got drawn to a fun fact.

• 47:26Speaker 00

  Well, that's fine. I'll, I'll allow it.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  So the one hundred folds in a chef's hat, do you know what they represent?

• 47:34Speaker 00

  A hundred different cuisines.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  A hundred different ways to cook an egg.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  There's a hundred ways to cook an egg?

• 47:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:40Speaker 00

  Are you gonna name them all right now?

• 47:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 47:42Speaker 00

  No.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna do that.

• 47:44Speaker 00

  I'm trying to, like, come up with as many as I can think of right now in my head. Damn.

• 47:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  A hundred ways?

• 47:50Speaker 01

  Yep. According to Reluctant Gourmet, the pleats used to signify a chef's level of experience, like the number of ways he or she knows how to prepare eggs.

• 48:00Speaker 00

  I'm obsessed with that.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Isn't that cool?

• 48:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's really cool.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Tell me all the ways to cook eggs, because I love eggs.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  From my head down to my legs.

• 48:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  I love eggs.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I love eggs so much.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  It also just reminds me of the Amanda Bynes.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  I like eggs.

• 48:17Speaker 01

  I like eggs.

• 48:18Speaker 00

  If your name was like Debbie or something.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  I like eggs.

• 48:21Speaker 00

  I love that.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Well, we hope you keep listening.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  And we hope you.

• 48:25Speaker 01

  Keep it weird.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  But also where they don't like eggs.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  Unless you're allergic, then you cannot like them. Or like vegan or something. It's okay. Yeah.

• 48:36Speaker 00

  Bye.

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• 50:37Speaker 00

  Nearly 50 years after Stephen King's Carrie became a cultural phenomenon, Mike Flanagan is reimagining the iconic story for a new generation. After her father's sudden death, Carrie White enters public school for the first time and must navigate a viral bullying scandal, the relentless pressure of the social media age, and the awakening of mysterious telekinetic powers that rise alongside her adolescence. You know, the usual. Carrie is a story about how small acts of cruelty snowball into something catastrophic, a theme that feels as painfully relevant today as it did 50 years ago. I feel like maybe even a little bit more because we are all hooked on social media and we all know that can be a terrifying place, but not quite as terrifying as the prom scene. Carrie is now streaming on Prime Video.