Cathie Wood on Tesla-SpaceX Merger, $1M Bitcoin, More AIs Than Humans | EP #296 | Moonshots Live

Peter Diamandis and Emad Mostaque sit down with Cathie Wood and Nikhil Chandhok at Moonshots Live 2026 to discuss the Tesla-SpaceX merger, the path to $1 million Bitcoin, the rapid rise of AI, stablecoins, and the broader bull case for America. This episode was filmed at Moonshots Live 2026. Learn more at https://moonshots.com/ Get access to metatrends 10+ years before anyone else - https://qr.diamandis.com/metatrends Peter H. Diamandis, MD, is the Founder of XPRIZE, Singularity University, ZeroG, and A360 Emad Mostaque is the founder of Intelligent Internet ( https://www.ii.inc ) Cathie Wood is the founder, CEO and CIO of ARK Invest, where she focuses on investing in disruptive innovation across areas including AI, robotics, blockchain and emerging technologies. Nikhil Chandhok is the Chief Product & Technology Officer at Circle, helping lead the company’s product and technology strategy around digital finance and stablecoins. – This event is presented with Circle — https://www.circle.com/ _ Connect with Peter: X Instagram Substack Website Xprize A360 Connect with Emad: X Linkedin Learn about Intelligent Internet Read Emad’s Book Connect with Cathie: Website X Instagram LinkedIn Connect with Nikhil: Website LinkedIn Listen to MOONSHOTS: Apple YouTube Follow MOONSHOTS: Instagram TikTok X Threads – *Recorded on September 25th, 2026 *The views expressed by me and all guests are personal opinions and do not constitute Financial, Medical, or Legal advice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Singularity is here. Yes. Oh my God, how lucky are we to be alive now during the singularity? I mean, I know you guys know this. I mean, we feel the speed up, right? Every day I wake up and check my X channels, which I've curated. I check the conversations we have in our WhatsApp group and the moonshot mates like, what just happened, what just happened, what just happened? It's mind blowing. It's absolutely mind blowing. So we have two incredible leaders on stage and I'm going to kick off the first question to you, Kathy. And thank you Kathy for your support of this event and of the Future Vision X Prize. So, so proud of what you and Lisa Dodd have done to support this.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Yes, and thank you. Lisa's here, so thank you Lisa for all you've done for this great event.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  So your team has said the Tesla and SpaceX merger could be announced this year. I agree. You know, rockets, satellites, AI, EVs, robotaxis, humanoid robots, energy, all under one roof. And so the question is, what is Elon, in your opinion, actually trying to achieve long term through this merger? Do you think he's going to hit any particular roadblocks? And I'm curious, you know, does SpaceX AI or SpaceX need to reach a certain valuation before he pulls the trigger on that? So the dilution isn't too much.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Yes, so we do think it's going to happen. What is his ultimate goal? Well, he tells us all the time, it's Mars. He's just creating a number of stops along the way in the form of a global, you know, connectivity, broadband connectivity business.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, the Dyson swarm.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  Yes, really unbelievable how profitable and, and how big it is already from a revenue generation point of view. And this NeoCloud business that he, you know, basically was a giant pivot in terms of XAI, so NeoClouds. But Elon believes that, that the leader, the AI leader in terms of frontier models is going to be the company with the most computing capacity and at the cheapest cost. And with orbital data centers, he thinks he will be that company.

• 2:38Speaker 01

  So he's really going to go after, you know, the, the Open AIs and Anthropics of the world. They're determined.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  SpaceX is my largest holding. Is that your largest holding? What's at the top of your stack?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  Tesla and SpaceX and we do believe they will be combined, so yes.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  Do you think, you know, so he has a Chinese business with Tesla, right? And he's in the defense department. How does he handle that?

• 3:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, as one of the roadblocks out there. You know, it's very interesting to see him sitting at the table with President Trump and Xi Jinping. So, and we know that May Musk is adored in China, so he's working all angles here. And there's even, there has even been talk that he's going to be able to develop a robotaxis system in, in China. So it's very interesting. Many people would say that's the biggest stumbling block, given our defense posture and, and given how this administration has, you know, basically portrayed the Chinese

• 3:54Speaker 01

  as our, as our biggest potential enemy. Keep your enemies close is what I think this, this week is all about. So, you know, I can see, honestly, I have, now I am an optimistic person, but we believe that the productivity gains coming out of this AI and just generalized technology revolution are going to be so enormous that we could have a win, win, win here with China and the US. The, China needs to develop a consumer economy and it can turn this productivity gain into increased compensation to really develop the consumer.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  We need to, we need to be maybe more aggressive in competing against China. We can use some of it to cut prices. So I think, and that would lower inflation and take away a lot of the, the fears out there from a policy point of view. So I think that's what Trump and Musk together are working on.

• 4:57Speaker 00

  The Fed announced something like a 4.7% GDP growth in the last quarter, which was like double the quarter before. When I interviewed Elon with Dave London last December, it aired at the beginning of January, he said, you know, he could imagine triple digit growth within this decade of the GDP, which is...

• 5:18Speaker 01

  Is that cumulative or...

• 5:20Speaker 00

  Per year.

• 5:22Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I think I tuned into that part of it and it was like, well, so our number is seven to eight percent. We're accelerating in the next five years to seven to eight percent real GDP growth. I have heard him say 20, 30%. I had not heard him say triple digits and I wasn't sure if it was cumulative that he was talking about.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  I'll ask him. Are you going to the Roadster rollout on October 1st?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  We have, we have been invited.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  Okay, yeah. So I was texting with Elon and I think we're going to do a moonshots podcast with him from there, so I'm excited about that.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Very cool.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yimad?

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I think that one of the interesting things that I've seen recently, like your view, Nick Hill, and it kind of extends is Elon said that Grokbot has hundreds of thousands of installs now. And obviously it's a brand new line. We've seen Muse with 3 million.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  3.8.

• 6:22Speaker 02

  3.8 million downloads. And then we saw...

• 6:24Speaker 00

  I'm sorry, 2.8 million downloads, 3.8, 3.8 billion users, right?

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Well, that's the, yeah. It's obviously going to grow this entire sector. And then Amazon banned Muse. So I think one of the really interesting things for me, and you know, I think Nick Hill, you've been thinking about this a lot, is how do you tell who's who on the internet when we have these AIs intermediating us?

• 6:44Speaker 00

  Millions of them.

• 6:46Speaker 02

  Then at what point are there going to be more AIs than humans doing these jobs on the internet itself? Because I think this is one of the things that really drives the massive real GDP growth, right? Because you have so much money being in lock through intense and being able to represent what you want. So I'd love your insight on that.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  I think on the second part, I think there will be more AIs than humans next year. There's no reason for that not to be true. There's five, like anywhere between five to six and a half billion people on the internet at any given time. It's not very hard to imagine that every one of us has thousands of agents working for us. They're coming in and out, but like, they're all going to be there. And with consumer platforms like Muse and Instinct getting out and them reaching mass scale, I mean, I think they're primarily compute limited at this point. They're not limited by people's desire to have those things. So I wouldn't be surprised, like much, much like we had like one PC, a PC on every desktop, a phone in every pocket, like an agent for every person.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  And if you move towards that vision, then like every agent has subagents and like those agents come about like to do tasks and then they go away because you have this main orchestrating agent that like remains with you, that has context and memory. And so all of these agents are going to be on the internet. They're going to be doing, they're going to be doing things. They're going to be doing things really fast. Hopefully they're aligned with us. We can have a discussion about that as well and, and not with each other. And, and so like, yeah. And so then the question is like, what happens then? Like what happens in like 28? Like, well, at least in our estimation, as we look forward towards the later years in the decade, these agents become full economic actors, much like websites became sided off as curiosities.

• 8:31Speaker 03

  I don't know if anybody remembers GeoCities back in 96.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 8:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I lived through all of that. Like, you know, I lived through, if people remember Blogger and Orkut, and these are old social networks. And then, and then we got websites. We got real websites that did real things, like we had the New York Times or the Journal for news and then we had Amazon for shopping. And then everything became a website. So I think everything eventually will become like this economic endpoint. And at that point, yes, these economic endpoints will not just talk to us, they will talk to each other, they will talk to each other on behalf of us. Sometimes they'll talk to each other because they're just trying to accomplish a task and that is the most efficient thing to do. And when they do that, I think you will need like a way to say like, all right, who are you? Like, when were you born? What have you done?

• 9:20Speaker 00

  Who owns you?

• 9:21Speaker 03

  Who owns you?

• 9:22Speaker 00

  Who's responsible if you screw up?

• 9:23Speaker 03

  Who's responsible? Who owns the liability? Like, what is the provenance of your identity? What is the provenance of your compute allocation? And what are your incentives? And prove to me that you have done the things that you claim you, you do. Or like, you know, let's say like this is another use case we're playing around with on Arc, which is a new blockchain we have. Nothing in common. And so there we are giving agents money. We're giving them when agents spin up, like they need money to act. So they need money for compute. They need money to like, a lot of these are trading agents right now on blockchains. And so we're giving, we have a credit program. So we give them, we give them 25 cents. If they come and pay us back, then we give them more money.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  And so like, so then you need a log of like, where does this happen? Blockchains are great for creating like persistent logs over many years. Because you have distributor validator sets, you cannot lie. One of the things that happened in the hugging face hack was like the logs got rewritten because they were their agents' own logs. So what happens if the logs are public? What if the data is all public, all indexable? You can run your own verification on who the agent is, what they have done, what is their provenance, like what are their incentives? I think we just move into a very different world than what we are today, where it feels like a bunch of teenagers like going about the world and like we're waiting for the grown up agents to come about.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Nikhil, you know, paint a picture for us. When there are millions or billions of agents transacting.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Right.

• 10:55Speaker 00

  How superheated does the economy get in five or 10 years?

• 11:00Speaker 03

  So it's, it's really interesting to think about because every inefficiency in the economy needs to go away.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  Well, it will go away.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  It will go away. And the reason it'll go away is because if you don't take it away, there will be some other agent who is willing to take it away at cost plus, right? Like essentially the economy, all efficiency inefficiencies get taken out by these cost plus agents. So at that point, we have a very efficient capital allocation system. And we have to believe that on the other side of this very efficient capital allocation system is this, there's this wellspring of ideas that is waiting to get funded. And so I do think like the solopreneur, like you were talking about earlier today, will, that'll be a big, big population.

• 11:49Speaker 03

  I do think like capital formation will be almost instantaneous. So if these things happen.

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Here's my idea. Oh, it's funded. There you go.

• 11:59Speaker 03

  So we're building primitives so that can happen. That's what inspires us because we want people everywhere in the world to be able to form capital. And you form capital today by going to a bank or like, you know, writing a note or raising money. But what crypto has proven really well is that you can use cryptographic tools, you can use tokens to coordinate and form capital. Now, there were less serious ideas in the past, and now there are going to be more and more serious ideas in the future. So that's what's exciting about.

• 12:27Speaker 00

  So let me, let me follow on one second. So ultimately, the question is why USDC? Why not Satoshi's? You know, there had been native agent token, you know, created.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. Talk to me about how you think USDC is like the, the best mechanism for transaction for agents?

• 12:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, look, USDC has already settled over 100 trillion in the last like.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Pretty good. Nice job.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  Pretty good. Like, yeah, so over 100 trillion, over 30 public blockchains. A public blockchain has every transaction publicly available. So it's hardened infrastructure. We have created and redeemed close to a billion dollars of USDC, a trillion dollars of USDC today. So when it comes to financial infrastructure, you need it to be 24/7, you need it to be 365, you need it to be, you need it to be cheap. You want to pay cents, not bips. Bips are basically percentage points on their transaction. So all of that infrastructure exists right now. And what is going to be a great tailwind in the new year is that the Genius Act goes into effect come January.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  So for those who don't know, the Genius Act is the stable, legalized stable coins or created a framework for stable coins in the United States and was passed last summer. It takes 18 months to get the implementation going and come January, it's going to be implemented. So stablecoin money can, can be held by a business and count as cash or cash equivalents in the United States. And you can transact in stablecoin money. So stablecoins are good for this new world because stablecoins settle instantaneously. When you strike, when you swipe your credit card at the merchant outside, it takes them like three or five ways to get that money. So they're essentially holding that risk that, that your credit card, your bank account

• 14:26Speaker 03

  is going to move the money to them at some point. So that creates risk in the system. All of that goes away with.

• 14:31Speaker 00

  It's like the Pony Express being disrupted by, by telegraph.

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  May I ask a question?

• 14:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Matthew Prince at CloudFlare.

• 14:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:42Speaker 01

  Is very focused on agentic commerce, agentic payments.

• 14:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  And he believes that we are going to need blockchain speeds of 20 to 100 transactions per second in this new world.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  Right.

• 15:00Speaker 01

  And yet we are so far from that. Visa is at 20,000 per second, I think. And Ethereum, not even that, right? Solana, a little bit more. So how do we get from here to there? What has to happen?

• 15:17Speaker 03

  We are approaching those, we are approaching, it's, did you say 20 or 100 or?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  20 to 100.

• 15:26Speaker 03

  Thousand.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:28Speaker 03

  Oh, then, then we are there.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. I think 20 to 100, I think it's trillion. It's either billion or trillion. It's huge. It's billion.

• 15:41Speaker 03

  It'll be, it'll be million.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, it would be million. That's right. Because NASDAQ is, NASDAQ at its peak is 2 million. He's saying 20 to 100 million.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  That'd be great.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  No, I know, but that, but it's, it's the world that would be.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  It's the world we are moving towards.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  We're moving towards that. So how do we get there?

• 16:01Speaker 03

  We are already orders of magnitude, like so our chain, again, ARC is orders of magnitude higher than like what Ethereum is able to achieve today, right? So it's in tens of thousands of transactions per second. It's an open question about like, you know, how do you get to 2 million to 5 million or 10 million TPS? Those are hard technical questions still. We, the, one of the things that is true is like, as the demand comes, the solutions will follow, right? Like in the sense that Ethereum created an architecture for what they call layer twos and like they scaled through that. I don't know what the right architecture is yet for that scale. Like my dream is that we will get to 100,000 TPS without like, you know, without batting

• 16:46Speaker 03

  an eyelid. And from there, we will get to a million TPS. But it's, yeah, if you believe there will be billions of agent, agentic actors working on behalf of us or participating and transacting, because agents acting without actually transacting is not really economic activity. That's just noise, right? That's spam.

• 17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  And so you need economic activity. So yes, I, I think we'll, if that is the case, I should call up Matthew Prince and find out.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  The, the problem at 20 million is that you run into a speed of light issue.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. I haven't reasoned about it that far yet.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, but then you can like have different areas, you can have insurance on settlements and others. Again, the economy finds a way, like life finds a way.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  I'm really looking forward to that. If that is, if that is the constraint, like you must solve TPS because we have so many agents or like the economy is being held back because we cannot deliver TPS, we will deliver TPS. There's no doubt in my mind.

• 17:42Speaker 01

  And Peter, one other, just to segue from your last question. The, you know, proof of humanity.

• 17:50Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  Proof of humanhood is, is really important. Do you think, I'd love to, I know you're interviewing, but I, I'd just love to.

• 17:59Speaker 00

  I, I pass the mantle to you, Kathy.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  I'd love to know if you see orbs as a possibility. We have been working with ACO and.

• 18:10Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  OpenAI and actually Mr. Beast to try and figure this.

• 18:15Speaker 00

  What a fascinating combination.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yes. No, proof of humanity, largest, largest number of followers.

• 18:21Speaker 03

  Yep. All, all of them have huge platforms.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  I think Mr. Beast is, like, I worked at YouTube eight years and like.

• 18:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm, I'm only shooting for 10 million viewers on moonshots he's got.

• 18:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. I do think it'll matter. I think human experience will get valued significantly higher than machine experience. I think we all have intuition about that, but we don't know yet because we haven't seen it in action. I definitely don't, I have made active choices in my kids' education where I'm choosing for them to be educated by a human versus being like in front of a computer for like long hours of the day. And that is, that is a choice that I can make because I have the economic means to make that choice. I think the, as we progress further, I think people will care a lot more about like who is on the other side of the experience that they're getting.

• 19:15Speaker 03

  And I think that, that which is rare will get more valuable.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  And, and so even if like stablecoins come about and billions of agents come about, like being able to be in relationship with another human is not going to like disappear. And like, that's probably going to get more valuable. And hopefully, if all these agents are doing all this work for us, I am hopefully in relationship with as many humans as I want to be in relation, and it's deep and meaningful and all of that.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  But then the flip side of this as well is, shouldn't be, people be building for agents and not humans if agents are going to be the bigger part of the economy?

• 19:49Speaker 03

  That's what we're building. Like we're building our developer platform for the next 12 months, we believe is still going to be like developer first, but like next year sometime it flips where agents are the developers and, and they sort of come in and they are like, because it's already the case, if you ask your coding agent, like what should I use? Like the coding agent typically has gone from like recommending three things to one thing. And next year, there will be an evolution of this where the coding, you don't ask the agent what you want to use, you just tell them like, please, please build it.

• 20:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:22Speaker 03

  And so when that happens, like the agent is like showing up for your developer platform.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  So that means everyone in the audience who's building should make sure that, just like you had accessible websites, you have agent accessible websites, right?

• 20:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you want to create like, you know, we want to create like data on the internet now. So that like when the agents come like in like nine months, twelve months' time, they can look at like history of like the opportunities right now.

• 20:47Speaker 01

  So so an early indication that we're headed quickly in this direction is programmatic advertising.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Which which I think counts for, well, the percent of online advertising is roughly twenty five, thirty percent already programmatic. And that happened really quickly. So I think that is showing us the way. That's why I come back to the infrastructure question, which.

• 21:15Speaker 03

  You might.

• 21:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, you know, this is incredibly exciting and a bit scary. You know, like we were saying, have this thing, I think people do. Kathy, like you've seen all of this before almost anyone else, right? And you've gone through periods of dismissal, fear, and optimism from the investor community.

• 21:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Where are we now in all of that? And how do you see it evolving? Because all of the science fiction is becoming science fact.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  I know.

• 21:41Speaker 00

  As Alex likes to say, we're speed running every science fiction trope all at the same time.

• 21:47Speaker 01

  Yes, it's been fascinating to to be ARC in at this time because I founded ARC for this time because because this techno of this technology revolution. But because of the tech and telecom bust in the early two thousands and then even more so after oh eight, oh nine, the the institutional world in in public equities shifted either to passive, so just mimicking indexes. And of course, the future companies that that are making this new world happen are not big parts of the indexes, with the exception of a few, maybe Muse and Facebook and all

• 22:32Speaker 01

  of that, Meta. I think the pendulum is going to start swinging in the other direction. Our biggest proof point, potentially that we've reached a moment of change here, is what's happening this year in the what we call the multiomics revolution, the life sciences space. That space was left for dead in the markets, even though we were getting more and more proof points that this that A, the most profound application of AI is in healthcare.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Well, finally, this year, Anthropic and OpenAI are talking about the healthcare verticals and how this might, I mean, each one of us is a data factory, right? We have thirty five to forty trillion, that's my trillion, forty thirty five to forty trillion cells in our bodies, six billion base pairs, I mean, three billion base pairs of DNA. And, you know, we are walking proprietary data factories. And I do think that that market waking up to that and actually starting to pay some attention is is giving me hope that the chat GPT moment got us a little bit there, but,

• 23:54Speaker 01

  you know, you could still own the Mag six and be okay with that. But, you know, the companies that are really harnessing AI in the healthcare space are not big parts of the benchmark. So I do think we're going to see more truly active equity management.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  What do you think when you saw Moderna gain more than any other stock has ever gained in a major index in one day? Like, what was your reaction to that?

• 24:19Speaker 01

  It makes sense. I mean, these if if what they've done and and what what seems to be approved is is what we think it is, vaccine against cancer, that's unbelievable, unbelievably good. So, yeah, I think these company, I think the healthcare space is the most undervalued, underappreciated space in terms of this theme, but there are going to be major winners and losers. You really, because healthcare, you know, healthcare and tech, this is the problem generally for healthcare and tech do not play well when I in terms of research, meaning

• 25:03Speaker 01

  healthcare analysts are are a little cautious when it comes to tech and in fact, very cautious because moving fast and breaking things does not work in healthcare, right? And tech analysts don't like healthcare because it's too bureaucratic, too regulated, too political, too hostage to insurance companies and reimbursement cycles. And so, but but we probably have the most massive convergence and, as I said, the most profound application of AI in healthcare. And I think the light bulb has just gone on this year.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  Peter, you discussed how longevity is finally tractable, right?

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. You know, I, when I, you know, I'm in front of audiences speaking about longevity, I do that a lot to, you know, wealthy family offices and YPO chapters and so forth. And I ask them honestly, how much of your wealth would you give for an extra twenty or thirty healthy years or reverse your age by twenty or thirty years? When when they're honest about it, it's nearly everything. It's the, you know, I think of, that's why I split my life between AI and and longevity. I think they're the two biggest markets and two most impactful markets on the planet. Nikhil, one of the things we've talked about on the podcast probably about two months ago

• 26:27Speaker 00

  was President Milley and his announcement. Anybody from Argentina here in the room? Okay. So President Milley comes out and says, we're going to change the laws. We want to attract all the AI companies here. We're going to give agents personhood. Fascinating, right? So I think one of the most interesting things is going to be nation states providing a sort of, you know, regulatory arbitrage to attract companies and and efforts to them. What happens when AI agents have personhood? Have you thought about that?

• 27:07Speaker 03

  I mean, right now, we haven't. Like, I think like what we have thought about is AI agents acting on behalf of people, but sort of a middle ground, like, does it, is it, it's sort of like a corporation. If a corporation was just AI incorporated, AI, AI managed, but had a board of directors that was human. And then, like, the progression for that from there is like, what if the board of directors were other AI actors as well? Like, what happens then? And that is not too hard to imagine, like, essentially, how should, like, how should a company go about getting incorporated and what kind of economic output it's going to create?

• 27:48Speaker 03

  And and and who holds the liability for the mistakes it makes and how does it distribute its profits? So, again, that is very imminent. Board of directors of such a company or ownership of such company is still with humans, at least in my current thinking, but not very hard to speculate that an AI can go and use crypto rails to form capital and and create and find shareholders who are like willing to give them capital so they can go and act in the world. Probably this decade, but hard to speculate on like what problems they will be focused on. Maybe like medicine problems, maybe something else, yeah.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  And this, this, sorry, this would segue, I mean, this would combine with the concept of distributed autonomous organizations.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  DAOs as well, so very crypto.

• 28:45Speaker 03

  DAOs perfected this idea of governance amongst a bunch of people who didn't know each other. And they were global. And agents are similar in that they are, they are global, they don't know each other. And so DAOs did construct, like, and this happened in about four or five years ago before they went out of fashion. But there is a lot of prior art for the agents to train on, on what worked, what didn't work. There's a whole notion of quadratic funding that got played with. So crypto has a lot of these primitives available for untrusted parties to coordinate.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  And and agents are fundamentally like new, novel entities that exist. And once they have personhood, it's even more amazing. You can go figure out like what their provenance is, who gave them, why did they get the, why did they get the personhood? But, yeah, so I agree, like, I think there will be new models of funding, and they won't look like the models of funding, like going to a bank and like raising money. They will probably be internet native models of funding. I would not be surprised if one of these agents creates their own token and has their own version of proof of work and has like a very complex economy built inside of it and using tokens to coordinate that.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think you can say that DAOs kind of lacked intelligence, like they went.

• 30:07Speaker 03

  Well, they were human intelligence.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  But it's like, I think the advent of AI now to create decentralized intelligent organizations is fascinating. But a query about that, if you have digital organizations, digital entities, isn't that just the metaverse? Like, you've come from Meta to Circle, you know, where you did the air glasses and more, like. Is actually what we describe as the metaverse, not as this place that you play games, but a whole digital economy of humans and entities, is that not actually coming true, actually, finally now?

• 30:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Plus, you can make it look cool with the Meta glasses and other things.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, for me personally, like, so I did work on the AR glasses at Meta.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Are you happy with the results?

• 30:48Speaker 03

  I'm happy with the results, yes. I think the Ray-Ban glasses were a good first step. The Orion glasses were a good proof point, and now I'm not there, I'm sure they're working on new things. And so, for me, always the metaverse was less about the 3D. I think the 3D is exciting, being able to wear your glasses and walk around, like, essentially CGI is exciting. But what is more exciting is that there's just layers and layers and layers of intelligence in the world that is just waiting to be discovered, right? Like, Pokemon Go was a great example, like, it is a metaverse, because, like, you don't know how many Pokemon are there at any given stop, like, you know, and like, you see people,

• 31:30Speaker 03

  like, tapping into these layers of intelligence, walking the world, trying to, like, capture Pokemon. And I thought it was just fast. I would never do it, but like, I thought it was just fascinating as an example of, like, where people find meaning, and like, how it's sort of, that meaning sits in the physical world alongside us, right? Like, which is, which is what the metaverse should be. It doesn't need to be 3D. And so, will these AI entities present meaning? Absolutely, they already have, I think they passed the Turing test three years ago. So, I think they will present meaning, they will present connection, and so you will have these, like, new weird societies emerge, which will be hybrid between humans and AIs, where there will be meaning created, which is metaverse, in my opinion, yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 00

  You might continue.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Yes, I think, take that to Kathy, you know, like, we have media, we have generative media all coming through, we have this new layer being attached, like, what do you see as super exciting in that space? Because you've got kind of the physicality of, you know, Teslas and things like that, you have the financial rails, but it seems like there's a whole world that could come, from entertainment, from education, from engagement.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  Like, what's really exciting you around that, the potential there?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Well, as you're saying that, I think, and the other thing we talk a lot about is space, too, right? But there is another digital, I mean, another world that is happening, and it's happening, and it's gonna, it's gonna move in, you know, move at a much faster pace. We now have immutable property rights in the digital world.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  And so, I think, and, you know, the best way to lift people and countries and ecosystems out of poverty or inactivity is property rights, so.

• 33:19Speaker 00

  Amen.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  I, I think, you know, I'm excited about the space generally, you probably know a lot more about, and have a much better idea about what's going to happen, but we have set up our research team so that we have an enterprise AI analyst team and a consumer AI analyst team, and we're spending a lot of time, you know, talking about, okay, this new device is, has Muse, the Muse charm, is that going to amount to anything? And, and reflect on, okay, the handset, would we really, so, could the handset just become

• 34:02Speaker 01

  the, you know, a focus of entertainment, really, after all? And this other gadget, you know, moves into our work lives in some way? I don't know, so, we're, we're debating a lot of things right now.

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Nikhil, you're building a financial infrastructure for an economy that doesn't yet exist.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  It exists, but it's not.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  It's nascent.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:30Speaker 00

  It's just beginning.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:32Speaker 00

  What are the hardest problems you still have to solve to get to the vision you have in five or 10 years? And then, why did you build your own blockchain?

• 34:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think the two, the two answers are related. Let's start with something as simple as me making a payment to you on a blockchain. There is this concept of payment finality, and when two banks interact, like, they need to have, that method of interaction has to have this property of payment finality. No other blockchain today has this property in the market. So, if you believe you want to get, like, existing banks, existing institutions, existing enterprises on this infrastructure, you need to give them guarantees that are not possible to give using existing infrastructure.

• 35:23Speaker 03

  So, so one example is payment finality. Another example is, in a lot of public blockchains run on unknown validators, so unknown validation, validating a transaction is just looking at the block and making sure it's not ill-formed, and then everybody achieves consensus on it and says, this is a good block, this is how the transaction should be recorded. Now, for a lot of institutions around the world, not knowing who's doing the validation is a big problem, because they worry about security, they worry about, like, they worry about North Korea being in the money flow, like, there's just all kinds of things that they're worried about. So, we have a known validator set, like, on our, on our, on our blockchain.

• 36:05Speaker 03

  The next thing we tackled was privacy, because when you and I transact, it's not okay for the world to know how much money we have in the bank account, in our bank accounts, or for that matter, what this, what is the value of this transaction. So, how do you solve that problem at sufficient scale where you can achieve the TPS that you were talking about? Because a lot of privacy solutions are very expensive, they're computationally expensive. So, how do you solve it in a way that's a system's way of solving it, but it preserves the, sort of, it fits within existing regulatory frameworks? Because you can't blow up the existing regulatory frameworks just because you have a good idea. So, we solve privacy as being another example.

• 36:47Speaker 03

  And then, then it's cost, like, we are, I was just looking at some data today, something costs like 0.005 cents on ARC to settle, and costs 89 cents on, on Ethereum to settle. This is just some data we got yesterday on our P50 transactions. So, you can do the ratio on, like, what the cost is, and so if you have a lot of these agents executing a lot of transactions, and you have to believe that in the future, if these markets are super efficient, the way they get efficient is they transact, right? Like, they essentially move value back and forth, there is price discovery, you find the inefficiency, and you sort of, like, remove the inefficiency by moving value around.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  So, your settlement cost has to be really, really low, and it has to be significantly lower than what it is today, because you, these are massive public databases, right? And you're competing with databases that you're running internally, like a MySQL database or something like that, but now you have to make it scalable to the world and auditable to the whole world. So, cost was another issue. So, these are the problems that we have been working on. I think, like, in terms of what needs to solve still, I do think for the agentic stack, we need, we need to make this transition into this world in which these agents have personhood, that they are liable for making mistakes, that they have work history, that

• 38:11Speaker 03

  I, I can rely on before I hire them. There are simple concepts, like, for coding agents today, if you're using them on the open internet, if you're not paying somebody $200 a month, you're actually paying it first, and then the, you're waiting for the coding result to come back. And so, there are, that could be really problematic, right? Like, so, there are all of these things that, like, go into making, to essentially reworking every layer and every assumption of what it means to be a financial infrastructure.

• 38:42Speaker 00

  All right, so the, so the woolly mammoth in the room, to use Alex's joke, is, when do banks disappear?

• 38:50Speaker 03

  I don't think they disappear, like, I have, I have no desire for.

• 38:55Speaker 00

  I know you don't.

• 38:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:57Speaker 00

  But I hear the list of things that, that is going to be possible.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  It feels like it's substantially a significant amount of what banks do today.

• 39:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  Do they know they're cooked?

• 39:13Speaker 03

  My hope is the banks are gonna work with us and like make this transition. I think every new technology change presents like new challenges and new opportunities. Some people will transition with us and some won't. So I don't know if they're good. I think that's a tough one.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  I understand you work with them.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:35Speaker 00

  Yimad.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Kathy, like last year, Unitree sold 11,000 robots, humanoids, right? We have the Optimus and other things coming up. We have GDP growth forecasts going through the roof. We make about 70 million cars, 70 million motorcycles a year. When are we actually gonna see robots out in the world making a real impact on GDP? Like humanoid robots?

• 39:58Speaker 00

  What's your timeline?

• 39:59Speaker 01

  Yes, so we, according to our research and our director of research, Tasha Kini, she's director of research for autonomous technology and robotics. She's here today.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Awesome. Will she be there tonight? So Kathy's doing a session this evening on her 2026 Big Ideas Report, you know, and come and dive in deep with her on this?

• 40:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think Tasha has, oh, maybe she's coming. I don't know.

• 40:29Speaker 00

  Okay, okay. You'll be there.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  So we have, from a research point of view, concluded that compared to a robotaxi, a humanoid robot is 200,000 times more complex with obviously the hands being the most complicated part. So while Elon says maybe late 28 into 29 scaling, we would put that a couple of years later.

• 41:02Speaker 00

  You mean he would be off on timing?

• 41:06Speaker 01

  Yes, it's Elon's time, so.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  But yes, I mean, one of the, I mean, because it's such a personal question in a sense, everybody thinks, oh, my gosh, could I have a robot in my house who would do all my housework? Is that possible? Will that happen? And the answer is yes. It's going to take years, but we do think so. And we think, you know, the reason Tesla is, we believe, furthest ahead on this is it's the same three technology platforms that are converging in humanoid robots as it is in robotaxis. So they are robots.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  They are effectively battery operated, electric, and they're powered by AI, just like robotaxis. So he's, you know, from a complexity point of view, we're very close to solving completely the robotaxi problem. I think if any of you are driving now your FSDs with the latest software update.

• 42:17Speaker 00

  I love it. I don't touch the wheel. We, you know, at home, we have two Teslas and it's like, it's magic. It truly is. I would never drive another car. That's not a commercial for Tesla. It's like, just I want my time back. And it's such a better driver than I am. Just ask my wife.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Well, you know, you know what? It is true, you know.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  Statistically, yes, 10 times better.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I don't know about your driving, but.

• 42:46Speaker 01

  And I'm not even funny. I don't know what that implies. I'm not. I'm not at all. No, both Waymo and Tesla, I think, I'm not sure if Tesla has disclosed, but we believe, Waymo has disclosed that it has surpassed human drivers in terms of safety. And we believe Tesla is there as well. I don't think they've put out those stats yet. So yes, and they're going to be 10 times and 100 times and 1,000 times safer. So yes.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Waymo stats, I did the numbers. If all cars were as safe as Waymo's, there'd be 40,000 less deaths per year and about 400 billion less in medical fees.

• 43:26Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's right. If we were, that's right. There are roughly 40,000 deaths in the US and we could save those. I think there are 1.25 to 1.5 million around the world auto deaths per year.

• 43:43Speaker 00

  You know, the secondary externalities are fascinating, right? If that happens, the number of organ donors goes down significantly, right? Which is why the other side of the business, the work of Martin Rothblatt and George Church on being able to generate, you know, replacement organs is so extraordinary. And what's fascinating is the counter movement coming from the liability lawyers saying we've got far less business if cars aren't crashing.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:13Speaker 03

  180 billion a year they get.

• 44:15Speaker 00

  Amazing, amazing. Kathy, you know, we opened up the show today talking about fear, the pandemic of fear that's going on. And I think very unfortunately, and my mission and the mission of our podcast is to give people hope and optimism, try and counter that fear with what I call data-driven optimism.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  Right? Not just empty, like data-driven optimism. How is that impacting the markets today? That must have, you know, some current or future, you know, we're seeing, the numbers are insane, like 80% of Americans fear AI, you know, 73% say no data center in my backyard, which is more than people say no nuclear reactor in my backyard. And the flip is true in China, where it's 80% pro.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  What's, how is this impacting you? I love your investment thesis. I always have. You're investing in the singularity. Anyway, your thoughts?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  So on the data center, it is fascinating. I agree with you because I think there's already proof out there that putting a data center in your state or your city or whatever is actually over time going to lower your electricity costs. Nuclear power, it stopped in its tracks in the 70s because of regulation. Now we're going full steam ahead and sure, it's gonna take a while for this to play out, but if we had not gone off nuclear, if we had not regulated it, and this is a lesson we need to tell policymakers today, if we had not regulated it, electricity prices

• 46:01Speaker 01

  in the United States would be 50% of what they are now.

• 46:06Speaker 00

  It's a travesty.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  It is, it is. So regulation is a menace and it's up to us. And we're going out there with this, you know, the scares about AI generally, and we're going out there and all of us on our team trying to bring data to, you know, to light for these politicians. I even faced, in Florida, there's been a political backlash and it's a business-friendly state.

• 46:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  But you face the policymaker with facts and I noticed the advertising has dropped a lot of that dynamic. So I think we have to face, we have to face them, you know, approach them and say, do you understand? And that's what, we give our research away and we hope it gets into policy circles. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  You know, I did a podcast with Michael Kratzios at the White House, the head of Office of Science and Technology Policy, and I'm like, Michael, who inside the government is dealing with this misinformation and trying to actually help Americans be more confident? And they didn't have an answer. And that worries me. It feels a run away in that regard.

• 47:24Speaker 03

  We have to tell the stories, though. I think like if we are constantly in the news talking about AI taking away jobs, I think we should expect this reaction. AI has to make housing cheaper. It has to make education better and it has to make healthcare more accessible, not just people living longer. And so like if we can tell those stories, I do think like we have a real shot of like turning the narrative around, but nobody's telling those stories, right? Like those stories get anchored in like, oh, AI is gonna come and like, you know, you will have less office jobs and, okay, great, then what are my kids gonna do?

• 47:59Speaker 00

  I call it the crisis news network. It's my abbreviation for CNN.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, and what's so surprising is the numbers are not supporting that job loss. Maybe at entry level, as I mentioned earlier today, but I actually think we're gonna end up with labor shortages and that's what we should go out talking about.

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Technology is a net job creator always. Sure, there's short-term discipline. Yes, it's true. It's a net job creator. It is, it is. And what you have to say, because people say, okay, well, what are the jobs? Well, in the early 90s, did we know, did we know anything about influencers or Airbnb or Uber? No, we didn't. We couldn't conceptualize it, right? There are many jobs we cannot conceptualize right now. So I do an exercise, go to ChatGPT or to Grok and say, okay, I want you to consult

• 48:58Speaker 01

  with futurists, scientists, engineers, science fiction, economists, strategists, and tell me what the new jobs associated with, and I would put in our five major platforms, what will they be? And, you know, the reason I talk about new worlds like space, obviously it is a new world, but asteroid miner did come up in one of those jobs. And it was like, gosh, I haven't even been using that.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  Near and dear to my heart, yes.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, and same with the digital world, you know, property rights, you know.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  Where, what I love about this country, you know, if you look at, I saw the statistics, this statistic this week, 90% of all the corporate bonds to fund data centers, all, 90% of them are, have, are US. And I go to the rest of the world and they are, you know, I don't see the animal spirits. I do see the fear there. So the irony is, the headlines might be reading this, but the animal spirits are alive and kicking and we're beginning to, look, the market's near all-time highs.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  It's crazy.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, right? Even though interest rates are going up, and interest rates will go up if growth really picks up dramatically, and they should go up. That's the market working.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think this is the bull case for America, right?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  USDC circulating faster, the build-out that you've seen. We have no securitization in Europe. We have no energy. And surely this could kind of be the bull case. You have the Muses, the Instincts, the Grokbots of the world. The base case is be more, do more. You've always felt constrained by creativity, by access.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:49Speaker 02

  And this is breaking down all those barriers. And in fact, you just look at bonds. Bonds are so cumbersome. Like, Nicole, what do you see about the future of securitization of all assets? Because if you can securitize a dollar, why can't you securitize anything? Particularly with the intelligence we have today?

• 51:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, you should. Like, I think ex-US, that is more common. I think the US securities laws are a little more complicated. They need to evolve or to allow for more experimentation. And like, the SEC just is putting out new rules as we speak, right? So I do think for... One of the things that is amazing about USDC is that it essentially exports the dollar into the world. Why is exporting the dollar into the world good? It's because people do real work. They make... They take their local currency and then they sell their local currency and then they buy the dollar. They're essentially lending us their labor. They're lending us their money, right? So that's why stable coins are really important strategically for a country.

• 51:49Speaker 03

  Because if you want to raise debt, if you want to grow and you have such high interest rates, like, you want to lower those interest rates, you want to go out and like, collect money from people so that they can invest in your growth and then you can pay them back. Like, and one way of doing that is stable coins, right? Like, so that is like a... That is why... That's why it's sort of... I've been at Circle for five years and for the first couple of years, I was so confused. I was like, "Why don't you want this, America? Because you can get... You can raise more money."

• 52:19Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 52:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can raise a trillion dollars from the world and people are willing to give you money. Because like, they believe in the dollar. Like, it's so important. So from there, I do think there are other assets. Like, I think treasuries will get tokenized. I do think bonds are already being tokenized. When you tokenize, you do two things, like, both inside the US and outside the US. You... First, you make it possible to access 24/7 markets. Why is accessing 24/7 markets valuable? Because that means you're more capital efficient. Like, you cannot trade a treasury after 5 o'clock... Yeah, or 4 o'clock Eastern, you'll know this better than me, till like, Monday morning. And so...

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Great, no more sleep anymore, ever.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. You're already... Your agent will handle it for you. And so treasure... So one is like the... You're essentially constantly managing capital efficiency, capital allocation. And you'll be surprised at how much money that is stuck. So in just one example, just in the international banking system, the money that is being sent between countries at any given time, right now, there's about $3 trillion that is probably in motion. That is not being used to go back into the economy. And that is not being used to go back into the economy for the simple reason that the technology and the settlement protocols are very old.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  So imagine a world, and if you believe the world is a $100 trillion economy, I'm making numbers up. If you had $3 trillion more afloat to invest in the world economy, what would that mean? That's a pretty significant thing, right? And so that's why some of what we do matters. The other thing it'll open up is... Securitization will open up. It's like access for people, and it works both ways. People in the rest of the world want to own Tesla. Circle stock, we went public last year. Circle stock has been tokenized by third parties and it is one of the most traded tokenized stocks in the world. And it's all ex-US. And people traded ex-US because they want to participate in Circle.

• 54:29Speaker 03

  But they have no good way of doing it outside of owning a tokenized version of Circle. And so all of that should get normalized. Why is that good for America? It's good for America because now people in like, other countries are investing in America. They're saying like, "Look, I believe American companies are the best. I want to give my money to this company versus some other company." And it works the other way around, too. If these countries are able to tokenize their securities, if they're able to modernize their financial systems, more money will flow in because you will not be reliant on the local regulator just telling you something. Your money's not going to disappear because it's going to be in a smart contract. Because you can audit how the financial ecosystem works. So if you want to raise money, if you want to...

• 55:12Speaker 03

  For these other countries that don't have the AI infrastructure, they want to raise money, they want to bring capital in, then you have to give better guarantees and better returns on the capital. It cannot be the case that I invest a bunch of money and then the company I invested in gets nationalized or the money I invested in gets devalued significantly. Like, all of that matters to investors. So tokenization is just an inevitability. Like, I think it's just going to pick up much like agents doing more cognitive work is going to pick up. Like, you know, taking that work, securitizing it, lending it, lending against it, borrowing against it. All... These are just all new primitives that are coming up.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  Can you guys feel the speed of the economy accelerating as we talk?

• 55:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Can I just add?

• 55:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:58Speaker 01

  This is a really important conversation. You know, there has been a narrative out there that, you know, US exceptionalism is dead, right? And everyone was pointing out the dollar going down last year. If you'll notice, the dollar has started to go up. And this happened in the 80s as well, when we had put in place very business-friendly policies. The dollar doubled in the early 80s with really good policies. So I think, because of everything we've been talking about here, that the dollar is actually going to go up. So it's going to be a win-win for people who are using stable coins in the rest of the world. And then I'd be remiss, certainly my team would feel I'd be remiss.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  We just securitized our venture fund.

• 56:46Speaker 00

  Nice.

• 56:47Speaker 01

  That came... That was announced yesterday, so...

• 56:49Speaker 00

  Congratulations, Kathy, on that. I want to close this out on a topic that we've discussed a few times on the Abundance stage. And Kathy, thank you for coming back to Abundance 360 in March. We're going to have Brett Adcock there, we're going to have the CEO of Helion, we're going to have Fei-Fei Lee. It's going to be an amazing, amazing event in March. When you were on stage, you were bullish about hitting $1 million per Bitcoin. I am curious if you're still bullish about that. And then, any concerns about the energy-sucking sound of AI over Bitcoin mining?

• 57:26Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, I do think that Bitcoin... Well, there were three things that hit it. The flash crash, quantum computing fears, which we think are way overblown, and AI taking all the oxygen out of the room and taking miners away, right? So we have... There's been one change. It's stable coins. Stable coins are usurping a role that 10 years ago, we thought Bitcoin was going to play. But it makes sense. This, you know, these people live hand-to-mouth and this makes a lot of sense. But it hasn't lost the three major roles. It's a... You know, it's a tech...

• 58:07Speaker 01

  It introduced a technology, a native currency, a currency native to the internet. So it wasn't there before. It's a global monetary system, private, rules-based, that's critical. And it's the first of its kind, or it was the first of its kind, in a new asset class. Very low correlation, even between gold and Bitcoin. That correlation since 2019 has been 0.1, so hardly correlated at all. And now Bitcoin's going up relative to gold. I believe that warsh is going to be very good for Bitcoin from this point of view. I think the gold price is going to go down.

• 58:51Speaker 01

  And yet, and that will, to the extent people were playing that, they'll be looking for the other...

• 59:02Speaker 00

  Safe harbor?

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Safe harbor, store of value.

• 59:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  And so we have not changed our forecast. Those revolutions haven't been changed. And the more stable coins kind of grease the skids and, you know, get more people talking about, once you've got your stable coin income and you're trying to figure out, "Okay, I'm actually making money now, where do I put it?" I think Bitcoin's going to get a bid from the emerging markets as well, as we always thought it would.

• 59:34Speaker 00

  All right. We're going to wrap it there. Ladies and gentlemen, please give it up for Kathy Wood, Nikhil Shandak, and Imad.