Pod Insights The Moneywise Guys 2/19/26 Moneywise Sits Down with Music Legends Paul South & Monty Byrom of Buddha's Beef About this episode The Moneywise Radio Show and Podcast Thursday, February 19th BE MONEYWISE. Moneywise Wealth Management I "The Moneywise Radio Show & Podcast" call: 661-847-1000 text in anytime: 661-396-1000 website: www. MoneywiseGuys.com facebook: Moneywise_Wealth_Management LinkedIn: Moneywise_Wealth_Management Guest: Monty Byrom and Paul South of, "Buddha's Beef" Bands Website: https://buddhasbeefandmeatpacking.com/ Tickets to Saturday's Show: An Evening with Buddha's Beef The opinions voiced in this podcast are for general information only and are not intended to provide specific advice or recommendations for any individual. To determine which strategies or investments may be suitable for you, consult the appropriate qualified professional prior to making a decision.
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Live from the basement inside the historic Woolworths Building in downtown Bakersfield. Call or text in at 661-396-1000.
0:09 Speaker 01 I need a dollar, dollar, dollar, that's what I need. Hey, hey. Well, I need a dollar, dollar, dollar, that's what I need. Hey, hey. Said I need a dollar, dollar, dollar, that's what I need. And if I share with you my story, would you share your dollar with me? Securities offered through LPL Financial, member FINRA/SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through LPL Financial. LPL Financial and MoneyWise Wealth Management are independently owned and operated.
0:37 Speaker 00 Now, let's start the MoneyWise Show.
0:41 Speaker 02 And welcome to the MoneyWise Show. We are live from the basement of the historic Woolworths Building in downtown Bakersfield. For the next hour, you are on KGO Money Talk, 1230 a.m., 101.1 FM, and always streaming at MoneyWiseGuys.com. You can call or text into the show 24 hours a day at 661-396-1000. We're your hosts, I'm Sharad Waite and?
1:04 Speaker 00 Sammy Abiyawie.
1:05 Speaker 02 Sammy, it's always a treat to do the show with you.
1:08 Speaker 00 Especially today.
1:09 Speaker 02 Oh, we've got a great show. We're going to answer some listener questions first, and then we're going to bring in a couple of music legends. These are, and I mean legends, I mean not just locally, but nationwide. Monte Byrom, Paul South from Buddha's Beef. This is a, this band has been around for almost 40 years. They had a little hiatus and that they've been reincarnated and they've come back.
1:37 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:37 Speaker 02 We're really excited to have Buddha's Beef on. Of course, they're going to be talking about a show that they're going to be putting on right down here in the basement of the Woolworths Building this Saturday. So really looking forward to them. I think they've got their instruments, so we're going to hear a few songs from them. But first and foremost, we'd love to take your comments and questions, 661-396-
1:58 Speaker 02 3961000, that's the number you can call or text 24 hours a day. Let's start with these questions, Sammy.
2:05 Speaker 03 Yes, the first one, can you explain the difference between the per diem interest and standard interest calculations?
2:12 Speaker 02 So, I mean, per diem is per day.
2:15 Speaker 03 Correct.
2:16 Speaker 02 Latin, right? Do you remember your Latin? I bet you do.
2:20 Speaker 03 Yeah, per diem.
2:21 Speaker 02 Per diem.
2:21 Speaker 03 After 25 years of banking, the per diem is stuck in my head.
2:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, per diem, you hear that all the time. You hear per diem. When I hear per diem, it's usually the amount that an employee can be reimbursed for their travel expenses, their daily, their daily costs that they have. And so I'm glad you're here for this, though, Sammy. Maybe you can kind of explain the difference between per diem and standard.
2:43 Speaker 03 Yeah, so the standard interest calculation is typically your loan balance times the interest rate divided by an equal amount of periods. And most of the time is 12 months. And the months in this case are all equal periods of 30 days. There's no 28 days in February or 31 days in January. No, we're calculating it based on 12 months. A lot of this calculation typically applies for mortgages and car loans. Why? Because banks have a specific. Consumer lending is very, very pro-consumer. So they want to make sure that the calculation that that contract is known
3:28 Speaker 03 and clear to whomever is going to sign. So there's no questions at a later date. The per diem calculation is taking the principal, timing it by a, an interest rate, and then dividing that by 365 days. And then you have your daily interest. We apply that in, let's say, we have a construction loan.
3:55 Speaker 03 That's what we use. We use that this type of calculation to come up with the daily interest. At the end of the the month, we tally unless the loan is paid off prior to the end of that period.
4:06 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
4:07 Speaker 03 It's also used in, hey, you want to pay off your your your loan, you call the bank and says, I want a payoff. They give you a payoff as of today and then the per diem.
4:19 Speaker 02 Right.
4:19 Speaker 03 For the next seven, fourteen days, whatever you request. That way you know that if you send a cashier check or a wire, you can just add amount of interest per day to come up with the calculation for the payoff.
4:31 Speaker 02 Right, right. I think that's where this applies mostly would be the, you know, the the loans that most people get would be a consumer loan. And I think I think people would be surprised to know that especially with credit cards, for example, you don't, you you're paying a standard interest rate, not like a, it doesn't, it doesn't always credit your account when they receive the money.
4:55 Speaker 03 That's correct.
4:56 Speaker 02 Because it's sort of like already baked in. There are, there are loans where that does. So like, it would benefit you to double the pay, not double the payments, but make
5:05 Speaker 03 Extra.
5:05 Speaker 02 Extra payment or make a payment mid month and then make the final payment, you know. So you're doing like, it's not, you're not paying extra, but you're just paying more frequently so that you can reduce the interest charge.
5:20 Speaker 03 Correct.
5:20 Speaker 02 You know, that you're paying and that can help speed up. But sometimes it doesn't, it's it's more of that standard rate. It's not that per diem. And so then it's just like, you know.
5:29 Speaker 03 So if you're a consumer or borrower in in general, you just want to read that that loan agreement to see what what what type of interest calculation the bank is using.
5:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:40 Speaker 03 Okay.
5:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:40 Speaker 03 That's that's.
5:42 Speaker 02 That's and it's usually standard.
5:44 Speaker 03 It's usually standard, especially for consumer stuff, usually standard.
5:47 Speaker 02 Yeah. Good stuff. Smart questions. Got another question here. You got that, Sammy?
5:50 Speaker 03 Yeah. Can you explain what R and D tax credits are and how they can be used for a small business owner?
5:56 Speaker 02 This is really interesting. You and I kind of learned a few things about this because it wasn't until just recently, was it the one big, beautiful bill that changed what companies can deduct in terms of expenses for research and development?
6:12 Speaker 03 Yes.
6:12 Speaker 02 And so there was, there have been some changes on that recently where now businesses can deduct.
6:20 Speaker 03 Hundred percent.
6:21 Speaker 02 A hundred percent right away. You don't have to amortize or depreciate, not depreciate.
6:25 Speaker 03 Amortize it over five years.
6:27 Speaker 02 Amortize it over five years, like where you, you know, you, you're realizing that depreciation over a five-year period. You can realize it all at once if you want to as a business owner. So it's a big, huge benefit. You found some information about Amazon recently, in fact, right?
6:41 Speaker 03 Yeah. So I was curious because I read a couple of weeks ago that the Amazon tax bill got reduced by like more than 45, 50%. And a lot of it has to do with the tax bill. So as I was diving in on just finding out why, a lot of it has to do with their R and D. So they, they, they don't, they no longer have to amortize it over five years. They can just deduct that.
7:02 Speaker 02 Right away.
7:03 Speaker 03 Right away.
7:04 Speaker 02 And that's what gave them a huge difference in the tax break.
7:07 Speaker 03 Correct. Especially within the AI era where they're hiring a lot of people and trying to make a lot of advances and changes and research and development. They took a huge advantage of that.
7:17 Speaker 02 I think it's important, we're not to explain, we are not tax accountants. We're not tax attorneys. So anytime that you have tax questions, we'd always recommend and refer you to somebody who does this professionally. So we're just kind of talking, generally speaking, research, research and development does count as a, as a, as a, a deduction that you can take, which reduces your taxable income. However, the IRS does define and put a criterion on what that means. Cause you can imagine Sammy, if you have. I mean, you can have any business and just say, well, this is, this is research and it was kind of the ongoing joke. I'm doing R and D and you're sitting on the beach drinking
8:01 Speaker 02 a Mai Tai. What kind of research and development are you doing? You know, I'm thinking about what I could maybe do differently. It's like, that's not research and development.
8:10 Speaker 03 Well, this did bring the idea for me to maybe go upstairs and start researching and developing new burgers.
8:16 Speaker 02 Now, that counts. That would count.
8:18 Speaker 03 Both the labor and the material, I'm gonna say.
8:21 Speaker 02 Yes, you could deduct all of that, Sammy, and you'd probably have a good time.
8:25 Speaker 03 Probably.
8:26 Speaker 02 There are four, there's four criteria that the IRS sets for being able, for it to qualify as a research and development. You actually have to have permitted purpose, which means you're actually trying to improve function, performance, reliability, or quality. It needs to be technological in nature. That means there has to be something that is based on engineering, or computer science, or physics, some sort of applied sciences, which is really important. That, that comes to like, you can't just be, you know,
8:56 Speaker 03 So I can't just be
8:57 Speaker 02 dreaming up some idea. That's, that's different. The other, third criteria is elimination of uncertainties, meaning you didn't know if or how it would work initially. So it can't be something that like you already knew. Like, that's not, you're not, not developing any, I mean, you're not researching anything. You already knew it. And the last one is a process of experimentation. That means you've tested, prototyped, or iterated to try to figure out what it is that you're trying to, to fix. So the IRS definitely puts the definition on what research and development is. Seems like it's still pretty broad, but you just want to be aware of that as a small business owner. I mean, I think if you're a small business owner, you're doing your own taxes. Um, you know, good
9:42 Speaker 02 luck to you. I think in certain businesses, that's okay, but you really have to bite the bullet. And in my opinion, a good tax accountant, a good bookkeeper is worth their weight in gold. It's like, it is so, so valuable to have that. It's like something you don't really want to go cheap on. You want to have a good You know, you want a fair price, but like you, it's a cost of doing business. You just a good accountant, a good attorney, a good banker. Like you, you have to have that.
10:17 Speaker 03 I agree. If you're a small business, definitely you have to surround yourself with a team of the people you just described. An attorney, a CPA, a banker, a financial advisor. So.
10:28 Speaker 02 Yeah. Last question.
10:30 Speaker 03 Yeah.
10:31 Speaker 02 I like this one.
10:32 Speaker 03 Yep. I love this one. I get triggered with this one. Gas prices are almost $2 more here in California versus the average US price. I did my own research after hearing you, your oil guy the other day and was just wondering, why do we pay so much more? I'm hearing it has something to do with the CEC, but just wanted to hear you guys' opinion.
10:54 Speaker 02 Yeah. So CEC, I'm assuming that's.
10:57 Speaker 03 California Energy Commission.
10:59 Speaker 02 Yeah. So let's talk first about what California has going against it. And we talked about this with Chad Hathaway, our oil expert here on, earlier in the week. California is a fuel island. So, you know, it doesn't have, has very limited pipeline connections to other refining regions. So it can't really import cheaper gasoline from the, where it's more easily refined, like in Texas or in the Gulf Coast. We have very few refineries. It's a shrinking capacity. Over the last 15, 20 years, we've just seen it shrink. And just here recently, we lost another one. So we're down to just a small handful of refineries within California.
11:41 Speaker 02 And California, coming to sort of our regulations, everybody knows California has high regulations. We're, we're a high reg, highly regulated state. We're a very progressive state. So with that comes, is generally not business friendly. And it has been especially.
12:01 Speaker 02 The environmental movements have been especially hard on oil producers and fuel refiners. And so all of that means that, you know, when you have a very shrinking supply, but an ever-growing demand, which we've had in California, despite all of these laws and these rules to try to regulate it, we still have an increasing demand in oil and gas. And so all of those things have brought up, you know, a much higher cost for gases.
12:35 Speaker 03 And the requirement of the California gas, so we cannot just import from other states. It has to meet the requirements. I think there's a name for that called CARB, California Air Resources Board formulation. This thing has to have lower emissions, less evaporative, different oxygenate blend, and more, just more expensive to produce.
12:59 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:00 Speaker 03 And that just adds cost.
13:03 Speaker 02 Right. Yeah.
13:04 Speaker 03 The other thing too is our taxes at the pump is slightly higher than other states as well. We do benefit from what we call freeways in the state of California. And if you go to East Coast, they don't have freeways, they have toll roads.
13:17 Speaker 02 Right.
13:18 Speaker 03 Right? And their taxes might be lower. That's another thing for us is we finance our infrastructure through a lot of these taxes collected at the pump.
13:26 Speaker 02 Right. Yeah. And then we have a growing problem with, we have a high rate of usage of electric vehicles, but the electric vehicles are not paying into the gas tax that goes into support the infrastructure.
13:42 Speaker 03 That's right.
13:43 Speaker 02 It's like a.
13:43 Speaker 03 And the grid itself.
13:46 Speaker 02 Right.
13:47 Speaker 03 Like we have an aging grid and we need more electricity, which, I mean, it sounds like we have a lot of solar now and what have you, so we have production. But these electrical cars don't have, don't pay into what the traditional gas or powered car pays.
14:03 Speaker 02 You know, it's so, it's easy to look at the cost of crude oil and relate that to gasoline, but that is only about half of what goes into the cost of a gallon of gasoline.
14:15 Speaker 03 Oh, yeah. Yeah.
14:16 Speaker 02 The other, the other part that comes out is, at least in California, you're paying almost 30%.
14:23 Speaker 02 Of for a gas of a gallon of gasoline just for the refining costs. That's that's like double of what the rest of the nation is paying. They have a lot lower refining costs. And then you have distribution, storage and marketing. California is actually a little bit cheaper than the rest of the country. And that's about 10% of the of the cost of a gallon of gasoline. But where we really, really do some damages and taxes and regulatory programs. Like you mentioned, the different blends that we have. And then we have cap and trade. The cap and trade requires that in any oil company that's doing business in California is is to pay a premium.
15:05 Speaker 02 Essentially, they pass that cost on to you because they have to buy carbon credits to offset the the emissions that their product is causing. And so the taxes and regulatory is about 30% of the of the cost of a gallon of gasoline.
15:20 Speaker 03 Here's here's something I learned when I was financing gas stations. There's a little little thing that we pay at the pump, about two, three cents a gallon. That goes into the the state, the state fund.
15:34 Speaker 03 Yeah, some there if there is a leak of that tank. Insurances typically don't insure gas stations because of the high risk or the perceived high risk. So this two, three cents go into the state state fund. If there is a leak, guess what? Who pays for that?
15:49 Speaker 02 Taxpayers do.
15:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, indirectly, indirectly through the state fund comes in and and does the cleanup.
15:55 Speaker 02 Gotcha. I see.
15:56 Speaker 03 So two cents, three cents, if you have, you know, I don't know how many gallons you buy per year throughout a life of buying gallons, that adds up too. But indirectly, we have an insurance problem in the state that the state fund has to find a way how to pay for it. And indirectly, we pay for those underground storage by the two, three cents that we pay at the pump.
16:18 Speaker 02 Right. Yeah, so we're we're paying about. Almost a dollar thirty a gallon in taxes and regulatory programs like this that you've mentioned. So if you take a five dollar gallon of gasoline, then a dollar thirty of it is going to taxes and regulators. And then you have about two dollars is going just for the oil. And then you have about seventy cents a gallon goes just to the refining costs. Well, actually, it's a it's a dollar ten goes into the refining costs and the refining profit margins. Forty-five cents goes into distribution and marketing.
17:02 Speaker 02 And then the rest is in the taxes, about a dollar thirty of taxes between state and federal cap and trade, low carbon fuel standards, and then you have your local tax, state and local taxes. So that's that, you know, you look at that five dollar a gallon is.
17:18 Speaker 03 And this is not including the shipping costs. Lot of the oil we get in the state of California is coming from overseas.
17:26 Speaker 02 Yes.
17:27 Speaker 03 Venezuela, Southern America, South America, that gets shipped here because we require a certain grade of fuel that we want to refine to a certain grade.
17:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:39 Speaker 03 So we cannot just import it from just neighboring states. That adds cost as well.
17:45 Speaker 02 We have to, we're essentially an energy island where, you know, we, as much as California produces in oil and gas, it's not enough to supply all of our state's demand.
17:57 Speaker 03 Correct.
17:58 Speaker 02 We have no choice but to have to import a large percentage, most of what we, what we consume is imported. And because there's no pipelines that come across the Rockies, there's no pipeline that comes from yet. We talked to Chad Hathaway about a pipeline that's in the works, potentially from Arizona, New Mexico, or, you know, Texas. But that's, you know, years down the line. So the only way that we can import it now is on these tankers that is imported in from other parts of the world.
18:27 Speaker 03 Yeah.
18:28 Speaker 02 And then we talked about this also in earlier show about the Jones Act, which is was, you know. Early 1900s law that requires a certain number of the ships to be American, American owned ships. And those are, those are shrinking the number of American ships that can actually carry. And so it's expensive to do, to hire those ships. And so now there's been a workaround that's been, that's recently has been coming where the, the foreign based ships will, will, um, will, um, pick up the, the gasoline and go to the Bahamas and either refine it or just stop in the Bahamas before they come
19:12 Speaker 02 back to the United, back to California. So there's an all time high percentage of gasoline that's being imported from the Bahamas to California, which is just insane to me because they gotta go all the way around to the Panama Canal and come all the way through. And like, yet that's cheaper because there's only a certain number of ships that, that comply with the Jones Act. And so it's just.
19:33 Speaker 03 Well, well, fear not, Jared, because we are not going to need any gasoline anyways. The bullet train is coming.
19:40 Speaker 02 Yeah. And it's just 20 more years. The bullet train. Oh my gosh. Great questions. Wanted to thank our listeners so much. We are going to take a quick break. We come back, we're going to be joined by Monty Byrom, Paul South from Buddha's Beef. These are musicians that are playing this Saturday at the Woolworths, the basement at the Woolworths. We're going to listen to them sing. We're going to hear some of their music and don't go anywhere, we'll be right back.
20:05 Speaker 00 Are you an employee with a company sponsored retirement plan? Do you fully understand how you're invested and whether or not you are maximizing your retirement plan's options? For more information on a free assessment, contact MoneyWise's 401K Specialist, Justin Leland at 661-847-1000. That's 661-847-1000.
20:33 Speaker 02 You guys hear that all right?
20:36 Speaker 04 Good.
20:36 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, welcome. Welcome back to Money Wise. I'm Sherwood here with Sammy Abiyawi. That music you hear right there, that's Buddha's Beef. We have right now joined in the studio Paul South and Monty Byrom, both with Buddha's Beef. Give a little bio here about the band. If you're not familiar, it was founded in 1988 in Seattle by singer songwriter and multi-instrumentalist Paul South. Their goal of playing socially conscious world beat music during the peak of the grunge and indie alternative movements in the 90s eventually took its toll on the band and they disbanded in 2001. Buddha's Beef were reincarnated 20 years later with Paul joining forces with Bakersfield legend, Monty Byrom in May of 2021.
21:21 Speaker 02 They released their comeback album, New Solutions. You can find that album, by the way, on Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you stream your music. Making their basement debut on Saturday, February 21st, that's coming up just a few days. Buddha's Beef blends seasonal musicianship with a free-flowing, deeply rooted live performance. Also, joining Buddha's Beef will be Dancing Tommy, bringing their unique blend of new wave, alternative and Laurel Canyon 70s rock. Welcome to the show, Paul and Monty.
21:53 Speaker 04 I didn't know that was a thing, Laurel Canyon 70s.
21:56 Speaker 02 I have got a suspicion. I know who wrote this bio. Yeah. I'm guessing it was Carter, but I could be off.
22:06 Speaker 02 I could be off, but Monty, you've been on the show, you know, many times throughout the years. Also, you know, you've been on Scott Cox shows for many years. You know, a lot of people are familiar with you and I think with your music and what you've done.
22:24 Speaker 04 But you know, if they've been awake for more than a minute.
22:26 Speaker 02 A little bit, a little bit. I remember the last time you were on the show, I read your Wikipedia page, which I'd recommend anybody go to. Have you ever read your own Wikipedia page? You gotta get on it, man.
22:37 Speaker 04 Never been on it.
22:38 Speaker 02 Oh, you gotta check it out. It's impressive. Like, there may be some.
22:43 Speaker 04 Then it's gotta be full of lies.
22:45 Speaker 02 Maybe, there may be, but it does list the bands that you've been involved in. Billy Satellite, New Frontier, Big House, The Buckaroos, Zen Road Pilots, Monty Byrom and the Road Pilots, and now Buddha's Beef.
23:01 Speaker 04 Most proud of Buddha's Beef.
23:02 Speaker 02 Are you really? Of all of that? Why is that?
23:06 Speaker 04 Because this is the music I was meant to play. Paul's my favorite writer. We've been singing together since we were like, what, 18, 19?
23:13 Speaker 02 Oh my gosh.
23:14 Speaker 04 And, and I've always loved reggae music. It's not like it wasn't ever a part of my life, but I never was in a reggae band. And I don't know if it speak, I mean, I was like around him. Eddie and I used to hang out with Toots from Toots and the Matals, and we covered one of his songs back in the late 80s. "Don't Come Running Back." But anyway, Paul, even when we were in the Navy together, was like my favorite writer and, and he turned me on to-
23:44 Speaker 02 So is that where you two met? Did you meet in the Navy?
23:46 Speaker 05 I met Monty in, I would say, 1977 in San Francisco in the Navy. Actually, we were roommates.
23:53 Speaker 02 No way.
23:54 Speaker 04 That would actually be 19 Baba Booey.
23:57 Speaker 05 I forget.
23:59 Speaker 04 A long years-
24:00 Speaker 05 I need some more media training.
24:01 Speaker 02 Many, many years ago. So you guys met, you were both into music, you're both musicians at that time?
24:09 Speaker 05 We were in the Navy Band and we did probably, we did three shows a day, five days a week, at high schools up and down the Central Valley.
24:17 Speaker 04 Junior colleges.
24:18 Speaker 02 No way.
24:19 Speaker 05 And we did probably four or 5,000 shows together.
24:24 Speaker 04 I don't even want to know. I don't know how many, but here's what I know. We got real good at what we were doing.
24:30 Speaker 05 Oh yeah.
24:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, you got your 10,000 hours in there.
24:33 Speaker 05 We got our 10,000 hours in before we were 21.
24:36 Speaker 02 Gosh.
24:37 Speaker 04 Yeah, that's weird if you think about it, huh?
24:39 Speaker 05 That's all we did.
24:39 Speaker 04 Because most kids- I mean, like, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of talent in this town. And I look at even my son, or, you know, John and Kyle and all these great players around this town. They had the 10,000-hour rule by the time they were 21.
24:54 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
24:54 Speaker 05 It's not easy, though.
24:55 Speaker 02 I was gonna say, like, a lot of, I've heard artists say, "Oh, you're so talented." You know, "How is it, you know, that you're so talented?" And sometimes artists will get a little offended by that, because it's like, "Well, yeah, because I put in the time." Like, "I'm doing the work."
25:12 Speaker 05 Yeah, time on task and talent.
25:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, and staying focused on it and just, like, doing it over and over again.
25:17 Speaker 05 I think socially, we focus on precociousness. When we think about talent, we think about the Picassos who can draw draft line drawings when he's six. But we don't think about the painters who basically are doctors and they spend a couple of hours a night for 60 years painting, and then they're good.
25:34 Speaker 02 Right, exactly.
25:35 Speaker 05 We focus on the precociousness, because it's more interesting.
25:38 Speaker 02 It's way more interesting. It's not interesting to think of a 15-year-old kid sitting in his bedroom, you know, 10 hours a day plucking at the guitar.
25:46 Speaker 04 Well, it was torture to me when I was a kid. I didn't like it.
25:50 Speaker 05 I remember, in the Navy School of Music, if you didn't lock yourself up in a studio and practice, you were likely to get kicked out.
25:58 Speaker 02 Oh, gosh.
26:00 Speaker 05 There was a lot of work done.
26:01 Speaker 04 Wait a minute, those were called units. We called them units.
26:03 Speaker 05 I just called it saying hi to the janitor when he knocked on the door.
26:07 Speaker 04 No, you had to have 20 a week, and we had to mark on a little piece of, he doesn't remember everything.
26:12 Speaker 05 I didn't do that, because I was too scared.
26:15 Speaker 04 But you had to go in. So this is after school. You had to put in 20 units a week. So after school, you had to put in an extra four hours of practice every day.
26:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:25 Speaker 04 And, you know, you think about it, but that's four hours. That's cutting into your meal time, and maybe you got a hot date that, no, no, none of that, forget that.
26:33 Speaker 02 So why did you do that? And I'm thinking of, like, from a parent, like, a lot of parents are trying to get their kids into music, and it's a battle, right? You gotta practice, and pay for these piano lessons, practice. What, like, how did, why did you guys, why did you do that?
26:46 Speaker 04 It was fun.
26:49 Speaker 05 It was fun. I couldn't, I started as a drummer, and I couldn't imagine not hitting a drum. The feeling of a drum hitting in front of me felt so good that I couldn't imagine not doing it.
26:58 Speaker 02 Something resonated, like, within you.
27:02 Speaker 04 I kept waking up with welts on my back and my head. I couldn't figure it, oh, and then I figured out Paul's sleepwalking.
27:11 Speaker 04 He has to hit something.
27:13 Speaker 02 Well, you guys brought, you guys brought, you got your guitar here. Can we hear something? Is this something, and are you gonna play something you're gonna play on Saturday?
27:19 Speaker 05 We could.
27:20 Speaker 02 Or you don't have to, you can play whatever you want.
27:23 Speaker 04 Um, yeah.
27:26 Speaker 04 Don't be afraid of that mic.
27:27 Speaker 05 No, I know, we gotta jump on it. I was trying to share earlier today.
27:33 Speaker 04 Okay, I'm gonna put this like this, Steven. I'm gonna, yeah, there we go.
27:40 Speaker 04 When Paul moved back, I'm just gonna set this tune up. I hope you don't mind.
27:43 Speaker 05 Cool.
27:43 Speaker 04 You wrote it, I get to set it up.
27:45 Speaker 05 Cool.
27:46 Speaker 04 This is, this is the team we have here.
27:48 Speaker 05 Yeah, yeah.
27:48 Speaker 04 No, when, when he came back, I, Paul always was a good writer and, and always had like great taste in music. You know, he turned me on to people like Zappa and Don McLean. I mean, all the music that I love now, I discovered through Paul as a kid. And, uh, so anyway, he goes, I got this little tune. I threw it over and, and, and he had thrown it down on a, like a microphone on his phone. And then he sent it over to Chris Newfield. And when I heard it, the first time I heard it, I remember what I thought. I thought, he's back.
28:19 Speaker 05 Nice.
28:20 Speaker 04 This is, this is one of Paul's songs, and it's called Buddha with a Mona Lisa Smile.
28:32 Speaker 05 I meditate here in the dark, inside this closet, behind the park, it's me.
28:47 Speaker 05 The Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile.
28:55 Speaker 05 I was created in Taipei, from a little magic and a bit of clay. I make the world spin round. I'm the Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile.
29:19 Speaker 05 A quiet life, each night alone.
29:23 Speaker 05 I save the world but have no home. That's me. The Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile. If you are ever in despair, come the darkness, I will be there to dream your pain away. The Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile.
30:06 Speaker 05 But if you meet me upon the road, you'd better kill me, so I'm told. That's how the world was made, said the Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile. Mmm. Oh. Oh. From a little magic, get a little clay and heal the world yourselves.
30:45 Speaker 05 Be a Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile. Let's heal the world ourselves, said the Buddha with the Mona Lisa smile. Mmm.
31:12 Speaker 02 Woo! That's awesome. Sounds so good. Sounds so good. I can't wait to hear you guys play on Saturday. We have a listener that's listening in, asking about tickets. Tickets are still available. Yes. So you can find our tickets. If you, if you search our Instagram page, Stephen? Yes.
31:33 Speaker 00 The Instagram, tickets are available on the Instagram page as well as the podcast notes on this episode.
31:40 Speaker 02 Okay.
31:40 Speaker 00 You can find tickets right there.
31:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, so it's the basement at Woolworths. If you just Google basement at Woolworths, you'll find where you can, the website and tickets.
31:49 Speaker 04 And also at the door.
31:51 Speaker 02 Yes.
31:51 Speaker 04 Buy, purchase tickets at the door.
31:53 Speaker 02 Come at the door. Yeah, we can fit, we can fit 400 people down here in the basement. So, you know, it is general admission.
32:01 Speaker 00 And Augie would slap me if I didn't tell him that there is options of a VIP table. If you're gonna go with the big group, you can get your own table and server and all of that.
32:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, which is sweet. We have a few, we just have three booths down here, but there's also a side stage VIP bar. So if you want to have a seat, you can pay a little extra for that. Those are about 30 bucks. But if you're just looking for general admission, 14 bucks. Can't beat that.
32:24 Speaker 04 You can't beat that.
32:25 Speaker 02 It's a steal.
32:25 Speaker 04 It's like, it's like walking into something in Manhattan or something. I feel like I'm in New York City when I'm down here.
32:31 Speaker 02 Monty, we owe you, and Paul, I think Paul was there too, maybe, when we were just trying to get, like, turn on our, our system, like our, our sound system and like try to see what it sounds like down here. You're one of the first people that came down here, which was just an honor for us to.
32:47 Speaker 05 Beautiful room and it's a beautiful sounding room.
32:50 Speaker 02 Yes, I agree. I agree. I am biased, but it does sound really, really good down here.
32:56 Speaker 05 Great job.
32:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, thank you.
32:58 Speaker 04 This is the hub of downtown now. This is it.
33:01 Speaker 02 That's the hope. We're really, really.
33:02 Speaker 04 Oh, no, it is. I mean, you can hope all you want. It's already happened, Sherrod.
33:06 Speaker 00 Well, we just opened, you know, we gotta do stuff.
33:09 Speaker 03 Did you record that, Steven? This is what we want for.
33:12 Speaker 05 But it's raining out and the whole, all the, everything's there. People are parking. There's people, even though it's raining, there's people downtown.
33:20 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think downtown.
33:22 Speaker 05 Parking and it's raining. It's pretty cool.
33:24 Speaker 02 It's really cool.
33:25 Speaker 04 I never saw that growing up. Like, it's really, it's drastically changed. I mean, you have the DA right there and you got a couple other businesses that have always been here.
33:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:35 Speaker 04 But never growing up did I come downtown and see people in every direction going in every business, every parking place is taken.
33:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:43 Speaker 04 And I, and I give you guys so much credit for that because. You have to have something, there has to be a hub, there has to be a reason. And you guys kind of brought that home for me.
33:54 Speaker 02 Thank you. We appreciate it.
33:56 Speaker 04 Enough of the ass kissing around. Sorry, I'm already in trouble.
33:59 Speaker 02 So, I'm just curious, Buddha's in the name of the band. This song that you just sung was about Buddha. So was Buddhism just a part of it all?
34:16 Speaker 03 Paul's a world traveler.
34:18 Speaker 05 It's, yeah. We actually picked the name because at the time, we were going for like a deity and a protein combination. A protein bowl and all the other ones were taken.
34:30 Speaker 04 Well, the protein part, he had another name for that.
34:33 Speaker 02 What was it? I'm trying to think of other bands.
34:35 Speaker 05 I was gonna go for Jehovah's Chicken, but it was already taken.
34:38 Speaker 04 You better watch yourself.
34:40 Speaker 02 That's awesome. That's great. No, I like it. I love the name.
34:46 Speaker 04 I do too.
34:46 Speaker 02 I love the song too, the lyrics.
34:49 Speaker 03 I do too. I tell Sharon Emily, I'm a numbers guy, I'm not artistic at all. But I'm very, very impressed. Like by the sound, just the words of the song you just did, really, really hit me.
35:04 Speaker 04 That's where he shines.
35:05 Speaker 03 Yeah.
35:06 Speaker 02 Yes. There's some universal truths there. It was universal truths in music in general. That crosses cultures, religions. And it is definitely one of, you know, what we, part of the vision and the mission of what we want to do at the Woolworths Building is be a place that transcends politics, transcends religion. And it's just a place where people could just be and be here and enjoy it. And I guarantee Saturday's gonna be fun. I'm so excited. So excited for you guys.
35:39 Speaker 05 My goal as a band musician and a band person is that I just... Want people to have two hours, an hour and a half of fun.
35:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:50 Speaker 05 Because there's a lot of stuff in the world that's really, really stressful right now. And I don't want to think about it all the time. And to be able to go and do something and take five minutes out, two hours out in this stressful world, have fun, that's my goal. When I came back to music after not doing it for well, my only goal was to have fun.
36:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:09 Speaker 05 It's music, it's supposed to be fun.
36:11 Speaker 02 Yeah. Can you share what took you away from it, or what brought you back?
36:15 Speaker 05 Well, what happened was, when we left, for me personally, I moved the family to Tucson. We realized that it's a great place, but it wasn't something we saw in the long term. So I didn't start a band. The long term became the longer term.
36:33 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:34 Speaker 05 And now the kids are grown. And as we were tearing down our house, I found an old CD, an old tape that he'd given me in 1982. And I thought, I wonder if this dude's still alive. And I called him.
36:46 Speaker 02 This was Monty?
36:47 Speaker 05 Yeah, and I called Monty. And, you know, after a few, you know, who are you? What, you know, after a few grilled questions, it was pretty clear. After you knew it was me, it was, it was cool. And what happened was, the children are leaving. I'm rethinking my life at the time, we sold a house. And I thought, I gotta go play music. I just gotta go play music.
37:07 Speaker 04 Timing, timing is everything.
37:09 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
37:10 Speaker 04 It's true. Paul's leaving a little part of that story out. So, he thought I was dead.
37:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:19 Speaker 04 I thought he was dead. And we just assumed it. It wasn't like I got confirmation, or I saw an obituary. We just hadn't heard from each other in so long.
37:28 Speaker 05 Yeah.
37:29 Speaker 04 And neither one of us are like social media guys. Like, we don't hang on our computers.
37:34 Speaker 05 Nope.
37:35 Speaker 04 So, I looked him up several times through the years, and I just gave up. I figured, well, you know. And then after 20 years of looking for him, I just assumed he had passed.
37:46 Speaker 05 Well, for my perception,
37:50 Speaker 05 I didn't see you as fronting any famous bands throughout the 80s. So I figured you had no other skills.
37:58 Speaker 05 So I just figured you were dead.
38:00 Speaker 02 He did, he did it. Wrote it hard and died.
38:04 Speaker 05 Wrote it hard and this was it. Yeah, left a good corpse.
38:06 Speaker 02 Oh, that's awesome.
38:07 Speaker 04 Okay, so just the last thing I'm gonna say. When you see that face and you've spent every day with it for four years, I hadn't seen him in 39 years. That's how long we went without seeing each other. And I opened my phone one day and all it is is a picture from the nose up. On Messenger, that was his picture. And I immediately knew it was Paul. Like, you know, after 39 years. And I remember running in the house and telling my wife, "Honey, I think my best friend just called." Seriously, like 39, I get emotional when I think about it. So I called him up and I go, and you know, it was immediate, like we picked up where we left off.
38:47 Speaker 03 Yeah, like you were together the day before.
38:50 Speaker 05 Yeah, and what happened was after I hung up, I thought, "I haven't laughed like that in 15 years."
38:54 Speaker 02 Oh, my gosh.
38:56 Speaker 05 Something's wrong here.
38:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, you guys were in the trenches together.
39:00 Speaker 05 Yeah.
39:01 Speaker 02 Literally, you know, yeah.
39:02 Speaker 04 We learned our craft together.
39:04 Speaker 02 Yeah. That just never goes away. I have people in my life that I was very close to in my, you know, when I was, you know, 19 and 20 and I, I'll go, I'll go five, 10 years before I hear anything from them. But when we see each other, man, it's just like,
39:18 Speaker 04 Pick up.
39:18 Speaker 02 Right where we were.
39:19 Speaker 04 Right where you left.
39:20 Speaker 02 Right, and it's just like true, true brotherhood there. You got another song for us?
39:24 Speaker 05 Sure.
39:25 Speaker 02 Let's go, let's hear it.
39:27 Speaker 05 I'm gonna introduce this one. One of the things I've been enjoying doing is writing songs about objects and songs about conditions and songs. Cause, you know, you can write songs about love lost, love pursued, love gained, and that's pretty boring. But I'd like to write a song where maybe the, maybe the guy singing is not quite right. Maybe the narrator's not quite right, or maybe the... So anyway, this is about a purple stuffed monkey that showed up in my car one day.
39:55 Speaker 04 It's my favorite new song.
39:57 Speaker 02 Yes. Yeah. You got a picture of it?
39:59 Speaker 05 Because it's a new one.
40:00 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:01 Speaker 05 Make sure I got the words.
40:02 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, yeah. Get your, get ready.
40:05 Speaker 05 It's so new. It's still got, it's still got.
40:08 Speaker 03 There's some comments here that said, you guys sound good. Some of the listeners are saying.
40:11 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. Listeners say, "Sound good."
40:12 Speaker 05 Thank you.
40:13 Speaker 02 Also, while you're looking that up, I'll answer a couple of questions here regarding you guys. Says, "Will there be food and drinks available? Tell the guys downtown to rock on." Downtown Mark says, "Rock on." I hope you guys know Downtown Mark.
40:25 Speaker 05 Thanks, Mark.
40:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, thank you, Mark. There will be food. Yes, there'll be food here. Luncheonette will be open. So there'll be food upstairs.
40:33 Speaker 05 Really good burgers.
40:34 Speaker 02 Great burgers.
40:35 Speaker 05 Stromi, whatever else they got. What was that other thing that I had up there?
40:39 Speaker 02 Reuben? Have you tried the Reuben?
40:41 Speaker 05 Reuben is really good.
40:41 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah. Another comment says, "Keep it up, guys." How many bands will be playing this weekend? It'll be two, right? You guys and Dancing Tommy. I'm a huge fan of Dancing Tommy.
40:52 Speaker 05 Love their energy.
40:53 Speaker 02 Great energy. You talk about, "Come have fun." Come have fun. Come and dance. And they're, they're amazing, amazing band. As well as Buddha's Beef. You guys, you guys will be there.
41:04 Speaker 04 Something tells me this won't be our last show with the Dancing Tommy.
41:06 Speaker 02 Oh, man, I hope not.
41:07 Speaker 04 I love those guys.
41:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:09 Speaker 05 So this song is called, "Purple Monkey."
41:11 Speaker 02 Purple Monkey.
41:11 Speaker 05 And it's on our next record, which we hope is coming out in the next two to three... Hopefully soon.
41:18 Speaker 02 In a while. Coming out. That's great.
41:20 Speaker 05 Soon, soon, soon. It's called Excellent Creatures, and it's coming out soon.
41:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, awesome.
41:25 Speaker 05 And here's one of the creatures.
41:27 Speaker 04 Okay.
41:30 Speaker 05 Well, I've got monkeys in the corner. And I've got monkeys in a can. Well, my mama was a junkie. But I'm just a monkey man.
41:59 Speaker 05 Gimme a beat.
42:03 Speaker 05 And sing. A purple monkey, fat and chunky. In the front seat of my car. We're the best of friends. Me and purple monkey will go far. Oh yes, we will. A purple monkey, he's been sneaky. He cut my break, the lines today.
42:41 Speaker 05 Some lines you don't cross. Does purple monkey want to play? Well. Other monkeys have tried to punk me. I just put them away.
43:05 Speaker 05 I lock them in their cubicles. They're so much quieter that way. Purple monkey is tapping phone lines. I heard the voices today. If he's trying to make me crazy, that purple monkey gonna play. Brown, brown monkey has never hurt me. Black monkey's kinda shy.
43:52 Speaker 05 But. Purple monkey is laying landmines. That purple monkey gonna die. Purple monkey, flat and chunky, in the trunk of my car. Well, I hear he's a spy. That purple monkey's gonna die. Oh, my. Well, that purple monkey's gonna die. Oh, my, my, my, my. Well, that purple monkey gonna die. Oh, my, my, my.
44:37 Speaker 05 That purple monkey gonna die.
44:42 Speaker 04 Two, three, four.
44:54 Speaker 05 Well, he's cutting brake lines. That purple monkey gonna die. He's topping phone lines. That purple monkey gonna die. He's laying landmines. Well, that purple monkey gonna die. He put a chip in my mind.
45:17 Speaker 05 That purple monkey's gonna die.
45:27 Speaker 02 Nice, guys, guys. Unbelievable. Love it, love it.
45:31 Speaker 04 A little different, a little different.
45:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, it seems like you have, I mean, that's, your music is varied. It's eclectic, right? Mont, you mentioned a reggae band. This wasn't reggae, but you do reggae, too.
45:48 Speaker 04 But there's a reggae beat to it.
45:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:51 Speaker 04 So, you know, reggae, a great example, I'm writing the song, Dogs of War, and I had written it as a ballad. And Paul hears it the first time, he goes, "Why don't you make it reggae?" It made the song better.
46:07 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
46:07 Speaker 05 Just a rhythmic appreciation.
46:08 Speaker 04 It's a rhythmic. Yeah, but he's the rhythm guy. So the approach to it changed the song and made it better.
46:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:17 Speaker 04 So if whenever you're doing a song where the lyrics are intelligent or something that's you can actually listen to and get something out of, reggae works.
46:25 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
46:26 Speaker 05 Yeah.
46:27 Speaker 02 Yeah, reggae.
46:27 Speaker 04 You know.
46:28 Speaker 02 That's Sammy's.
46:29 Speaker 04 It's like a nice frame for that, you know.
46:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
46:32 Speaker 05 Same Bob.
46:33 Speaker 02 Again, they're joined by Buddha's Beef. They are going to be playing an evening with Buddha's Beef at the basement at Woolworths this coming Saturday, February 21st. Doors open at 6 o'clock, I believe. Tickets are still available. You can go online on Instagram or social media. There's where you can get tickets. And yeah, doors open at 6. Showtime at 7, starting with Dancing Tommy. And we're here with Monte Byrom and Paul South. You guys are, how do I say this? You're not in your 20s. You're not in your 20s anymore, but you are, you are, I get a vibe of like real, true passion and like youth, very youthful energy.
47:18 Speaker 05 No.
47:18 Speaker 02 Like, what is, like, what is going? Yeah, what's going on in your life?
47:26 Speaker 04 I want to know.
47:27 Speaker 05 Plenty of vegetables.
47:30 Speaker 02 I was gonna say, a nice way to say, how do you live so long?
47:35 Speaker 05 Well, actually, I'm 29.
47:37 Speaker 02 I was gonna say.
47:41 Speaker 02 Well, you gave it away when you said it was, you met in the 70s.
47:46 Speaker 03 But they also gave it away when they said passion.
47:49 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:49 Speaker 03 And what they do and what they love what they do and the 10,000. I didn't know about this rule of 10,000 before 21.
47:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:57 Speaker 03 I mean, I was a 25-year banker and I, I understand that you have to put in work to, to get really, really good at it. There are certain things I could do in my sleep, but I was very passionate about helping people and stuff. It sounds like you found your passion early.
48:12 Speaker 05 Musically, yes, and then later on, I became a clinical social worker and a therapist.
48:17 Speaker 04 Ah, a really good one.
48:19 Speaker 05 I do a lot of meditation practice. I'm not absolutely a Buddha Buddhist, but I do a lot of meditation practice, so I try to stay as calm as I can.
48:27 Speaker 02 I think I'm a big advocate of meditation, mindful mindfulness practice, and it seems like in the last five, 10 years, it's become so much more mainstream, thank goodness. I mean, the science backs it up, you know, just the benefits of being mindful and taking some time, you know, to not let your mind constantly be controlling you. And most of us can become enslaved to our thoughts very quickly.
48:57 Speaker 05 Yeah, we don't get owner's manuals, we just.
49:00 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's right.
49:01 Speaker 03 I gotta say this, I run 100 miles an hour, my brain probably does 200 miles an hour. And I'll tell you, I'll be honest, you sat next to me and I could feel the aura. I mean, your calmness is, you know, I could feel it. So it makes sense what you just said.
49:17 Speaker 04 He was always that way, even back in the Navy days when we were in the 70s up in San Francisco and trying to start a band. And at one point, we had a offer, I think a record deal with Jesse, with Capitol, we couldn't get out of the Navy.
49:32 Speaker 05 Yeah.
49:33 Speaker 04 At one point, we tried, we said, well, how did those other guys get out? What did they say? Went to that lawyer and he said he could do a conscientious about.
49:41 Speaker 05 Yeah, I don't remember.
49:43 Speaker 04 I don't remember.
49:43 Speaker 05 That was probably a good decision to finish that up.
49:45 Speaker 04 You guys wrote it out.
49:46 Speaker 05 For me, and get the GI Bill, that was a great idea.
49:48 Speaker 04 Yeah. Yeah, we had to have, well, we both used it, but Paul was always like the calm one. Like, you know, we're out, we were touring at 18, 19 years old, we were touring with no supervision.
50:04 Speaker 05 Yeah, that was not a good call.
50:05 Speaker 02 And here you are.
50:06 Speaker 04 You had to have somebody calm. You had to have somebody that would keep you in line, even though he wasn't even the boss. We were both like E2s or E3s.
50:14 Speaker 05 Yeah, we were just peons.
50:15 Speaker 04 Yeah, we were peons.
50:17 Speaker 05 We really were.
50:18 Speaker 02 But you were together. You had each other.
50:20 Speaker 05 It was fun, yeah.
50:21 Speaker 02 So you got another album coming out soon. How is it now like making an album, say, compared to making an album back in the 80s?
50:31 Speaker 05 For me, having spent some 17 years away from it, I love it now. I mean, it's all computer-based. To me, it sounds almost close to tape, so I'm fine with that.
50:42 Speaker 02 Good for you.
50:43 Speaker 05 The editing and the way you can do music now is just completely different.
50:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:48 Speaker 05 Really, I personally love it a lot.
50:49 Speaker 02 That's good. Yeah.
50:51 Speaker 04 Yeah, he can say that because he didn't have to go through the 25 years of, you know, Monty in a smoky, stinky studio with, you know, editing a piece of tape with a magnifying glass going, "I hope I did this right."
51:04 Speaker 05 Yeah, you got one try.
51:05 Speaker 02 Hey, but those were also the days where you didn't have to deal with streaming services, right? I mean, you had other problems, but...
51:12 Speaker 04 Well, that ended the business. I mean, streaming is what ended the business I grew up in. And it's okay.
51:17 Speaker 02 We can go farther back, as some would say, MTV and the music video is what killed the music business.
51:26 Speaker 04 I wouldn't go that far. I would say it killed music to a degree, MTV.
51:32 Speaker 02 Right. Essentially, it was kind of the streaming of its time because they were just, look, anybody who could put out a music video, all of a sudden, they were giving away their music for free for MTV to, you know, to show it. And then all of a sudden, you know, it's just only people are just paying attention to what's going on in MTV.
51:46 Speaker 04 My take on the whole MTV thing was, so there were all these great artists that we listened to in the 60s and 70s. Andrew Gold is a great example, who wrote my favorite songs and these brilliant records, and then made records for everyone from Linda Ronstadt on down. But the moment MTV came out, his butt wasn't tight enough. He didn't have the look. And that happened to so many artists that all of a sudden, it depended on your looks instead of your music.
52:16 Speaker 02 We're about to end right now, but want to invite everybody, come on down, get tickets, come see Buddha's Beef at the Woolworths. Also, tune in, we're coming back. So wherever you stream your music services, you'll find us there. In the meantime, be smart, be safe, always be money wise.
52:32 Speaker 01 Securities offered through LPL Financial, member FINRA/SIPC. Investment advisory services offered through LPL Financial. LPL Financial and MoneyWise Wealth Management are independently owned and operated.
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