Pod Insights Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi 183. “I saved $5k for an engagement ring, but she secretly took the money” About this episode Michelle (33) and Matt (31) have been dating for seven years, but they’re stuck in relationship limbo, waiting to get married until Michelle deals with her financial problems. Michelle makes great income as a nurse, but she has a mountain of debt from student loans. Matt works in finance, and tries to help, but Michelle has loan payments and debts that he doesn’t even know about. Today we’ll see if we can unearth the root of these money problems so Michelle and Matt can take the next step in their relationship.
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Transcript 14,186 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:14 Ramit Sethi? On today's episode.
2:15 Speaker 01 I pretty much got myself in a huge student loan debt.
2:18 Speaker 02 I don't have debt like that, so seeing that now it's just like, what do I do here?
2:22 Ramit Sethi? Meet 33-year-old Michelle and 31-year-old Matt. They've been dating for seven years and they are stuck in relationship limbo.
2:29 Speaker 02 Pretty shocking just to see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.
2:34 Ramit Sethi? Michelle is a nurse with a good income, but she has a mountain of debt that includes credit cards, personal loan and student loans.
2:41 Speaker 01 Coming here is going to be the only shot I have because I literally don't even understand why I do it.
2:47 Ramit Sethi? Matt works in finance. To him, money is simple. He just follows his system.
2:52 Speaker 02 She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable.
2:55 Ramit Sethi? Yet despite Matt's health, Michelle is paralyzed by the size of her debt. She's worried Matt is going to leave her.
3:02 Speaker 01 I'm worried that he's going to realize that like he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.
3:09 Ramit Sethi? Can I help Michelle understand the root of her money problems? So she can turn this around and create a rich life with Matt? Have you ever taken money from him?
3:24 Ramit Sethi? I've got Michelle and Matthew's CSP in front of me, getting ready for our conversation. Let's take a look. Zero assets, $47,000 in investments, 263K in debt. Since they don't have any assets, it's probably not a mortgage. It's likely student loans, maybe there's some credit card debt, maybe a car loan. Moving down to income, Michelle makes a lot more than Matthew, but as I move down the fixed costs, I can see Michelle's debt payment is $2,542, while Matthew's is only $136, probably suggesting that the bulk of that $263,000 debt is Michelle's. Hmm, what's going on here? Okay, overall, Matthew's numbers seem fine.
4:07 Ramit Sethi? Michelle's numbers are a different story. Investments, pretty low. Miscellaneous spending is high. Could be that she's overspending. It seems like it. That's interesting. Let's see what's going on on their application. "We don't live together. We had to move back home because we couldn't afford it. He doesn't trust me with money. I'm very scared he won't trust me to have kids with me."
4:33 Ramit Sethi? We aren't engaged and it's holding our future back from moving forward. I want to feel some self-worth. Looks like there are a lot of factors at play. Pretty big stakes in terms of moving the relationship forward, which is stagnant because of money. We're talking about marriage, we're talking about kids. I think this is going to be a pretty substantive discussion. Let's meet Michelle and Matthew.
4:59 Speaker 01 You said in one podcast, "If psychologically you don't understand why you're doing it, you're going to continue doing it." And like the patterns with money. And I'm literally in that position where I have no excuses for myself anymore because I don't know why. It's so big and it's so overwhelming and it's like, like it's even bigger than me that I can't even realize it.
5:23 Ramit Sethi? What do you mean, why?
5:24 Speaker 01 Like my relationship with money.
5:25 Ramit Sethi? What is your relationship with money?
5:27 Speaker 01 It's not good. It's not really existent. I've worked since such a young age. I have no money saved. I have a lot of debt. It's just not...
5:42 Speaker 01 It's not a healthy relationship. So when I signed up, I was like, "I think you're really the only person that can help me." I want to pay off all my credit card debt, pay off all those debts first and then also pay off my student loans. I feel like I'm constantly in debt to people because of my mistakes and I'm... I just don't want to owe anyone anything. I'm worried that he's going to realize that like, he can't trust me with money and that he doesn't see a future with me because I'm financially irresponsible.
6:23 Ramit Sethi? Has anyone ever told you that you can pay off your debt? No one, right? You can? Let's talk about money in your relationship. So how long have you been together?
6:36 Speaker 02 I would say about seven years.
6:38 Ramit Sethi? Okay. And I understand previously you lived together and right now you're not. How long did you live together before you both moved in with your parents?
6:49 Speaker 02 So we moved in together in like November of 2022. And then we moved out in January of this year.
6:57 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so basically a little over a year living together.
7:00 Speaker 02 Yeah.
7:00 Ramit Sethi? Okay, what happened that caused you to move out?
7:05 Speaker 02 We came to the realization that we'll just save money living at our parents' house. And then hopefully one day be able to afford to buy a condo or a house or an apartment.
7:19 Ramit Sethi? Cool.
7:19 Speaker 01 Spending a lot, like trying to fix the place, but it was like already kind of rundown.
7:24 Ramit Sethi? And were you both okay moving back to your parents?
7:28 Speaker 01 No, I wasn't.
7:30 Ramit Sethi? Okay, why?
7:31 Speaker 01 Because I knew that it was gonna suck.
7:33 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, okay. What about for you?
7:35 Speaker 02 For me, they're like my roommates now, but I have no problems with them. And they accept me for, you know, being able to come back. They're always trying to help me and.
7:45 Ramit Sethi? Okay, cool. I appreciate. So you moved out, you moved back to your parents. So it's you and your mom.
7:51 Speaker 01 And my sister.
7:52 Ramit Sethi? Oh, okay. And living situation wise, how is it?
7:57 Speaker 01 The three of us?
7:57 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
7:58 Speaker 01 It sucks.
7:59 Ramit Sethi? Oh, how come?
8:00 Speaker 01 Because I feel like I'm the mom. So I'm the one that cooks. I'm also the one that spends at the grocery store the most because of that. And so that's one thing. I also feel like I'm just like, like the one that they go to for everything. Like, it just always feels like I'm responsible for like my two kids, like my mom and my sister.
8:25 Ramit Sethi? You ever have a problem saying no in your life?
8:28 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
8:28 Ramit Sethi? A lot of things, right?
8:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:30 Ramit Sethi? Personal? Yes, professional?
8:35 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
8:36 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
8:38 Speaker 02 She says no to me. No problem.
8:40 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, is that true?
8:42 Speaker 01 No, sometimes I recently realized that I am a people pleaser.
8:48 Ramit Sethi? You recently realized? I realized it in five seconds. What do you mean you just recently realized it?
8:52 Speaker 01 And I remember that it was something to do with like.
8:57 Speaker 01 My, I don't know if it was with my, my mom, like always doing favors for them.
9:02 Ramit Sethi? Uh huh.
9:03 Speaker 01 Um, or if it was with my sister, where I even like sometimes put it before even like doing something with Matt. Like, I'll even be like, no, I have to do this for them. And if my sister was having like, uh, she got out of a breakup and it really was a lot on her. I would always be there for her instead of like, leaving to his house, which is like my space, like safe space.
9:29 Ramit Sethi? Interesting. The space that the two of you had together was your safe space, even though the rental was not particularly great, right?
9:37 Speaker 01 Honestly, wherever like he is, that's my safe space.
9:40 Ramit Sethi? Wow. That's, that's pretty much the nicest thing you can hear.
9:45 Speaker 02 Very nice. Thank you.
9:47 Ramit Sethi? And yet, you moved back into this tumultuous household. Where you are de facto, the person who cooks and manages all the responsibility. What do you make of that?
10:05 Speaker 01 Uh, I don't put myself first.
10:07 Ramit Sethi? Uh huh. Why?
10:10 Speaker 01 I don't find myself worthy. I feel like when I do these things that they want me to do, or if it makes their life easier, um,
10:26 Speaker 01 that makes me worthy. I guess like it gives me a sense of worthy.
10:31 Ramit Sethi? Has a chance to. Maybe if I cook this one dinner, maybe if I listen to my sister's challenges with her relation. Maybe if I do this and that and this, then they will.
10:43 Speaker 01 Respect me.
10:44 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Do they?
10:45 Speaker 01 No.
10:47 Ramit Sethi? Maybe if you give it 10 more years.
10:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:49 Ramit Sethi? What do you think?
10:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:51 Ramit Sethi? Or maybe there's a completely different way to look at this whole situation. Because while you have put yourself back in that situation, what have you taken yourself out of?
11:02 Speaker 01 My future with Matt.
11:04 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. And meanwhile, what's going on with your finances as you moved in? Presumably, you're saving a lot of money, right? No, not paying rent anymore, are you?
11:15 Speaker 01 I, I am.
11:16 Ramit Sethi? Oh, what? How, who are you paying rent to?
11:19 Speaker 01 Uh, my dad.
11:21 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Uh, how much you paying?
11:24 Speaker 01 Three sixty.
11:25 Ramit Sethi? Three sixty? What were you paying when you and Matt were splitting it?
11:28 Speaker 02 It was like six fifty.
11:30 Ramit Sethi? What? Hold on, like when people move in with their parents, I have no problem people moving in with their parents. But I'm like, cool, you're gonna save like a thousand bucks a month or two thousand bucks a month, saving 300 bucks a month? And now you're cooking, doing all this stuff? Are you basically losing money now, living with your family?
11:46 Speaker 01 A hundred percent.
11:47 Ramit Sethi? This doesn't make any sense to me. Not only the relationship, the financial part of it.
11:52 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:53 Ramit Sethi? What the hell's going on right now?
11:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm not sure. I didn't know she was losing money.
11:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, I feel like I'm always losing money being there.
12:01 Ramit Sethi? Did you hear what Michelle just said? She moved back in with her family to save money, but she's actually losing money every month now. And Matt didn't even know. This is a very telling example of how money is not simply about numbers. So many of us make financial decisions because we feel we should. We feel we should save money, so we simply jump from one thing to another. I need to move back in with my parents. I need to buy a house. I should cut back on brunch. We are missing one essential thing. Actually making big financial decisions using real numbers. And if you really listen, you hear why. Did you hear the words Michelle used to describe herself?
12:45 Ramit Sethi? I'm a people pleaser. I don't find myself worthy. Matt is my safe space. She knows something is wrong. But without knowing how to probe into it, she defaults to her worldview of not trusting herself, leading to her moving back in with her parents. I'm curious to learn more. So let's get back to how they talk about money in their relationship. When was the first time you had a real conversation about money?
13:17 Speaker 02 I don't think we've ever had a conversation about money.
13:19 Ramit Sethi? In seven years?
13:21 Speaker 02 She doesn't really like talking about that.
13:23 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
13:24 Speaker 02 And then I also don't push her on it because she'll be writing in a planner, let's say of all her bills. I'll go over to take a peek and she's like, no, no, no, stop, don't look. I do keep peeking, but it's always the same thing.
13:37 Ramit Sethi? You go across the room and you pull out your binoculars.
13:40 Speaker 02 You go, what, what's on that? Like set up a mirror behind her.
13:44 Ramit Sethi? Why do you think that Michelle says no, no, no about you looking at her finances?
13:50 Speaker 02 Probably because she's embarrassed.
13:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I am. I've even told him, I'm not ready to show you, even though it's been seven years. It wasn't until recently, honestly, that we had this coming up that I actually was upfront about it in general.
14:04 Ramit Sethi? You sat down and talked about the numbers?
14:05 Speaker 01 We didn't sit down and talk.
14:06 Speaker 02 She filled out the CSP and that's where I saw the number.
14:11 Ramit Sethi? First time?
14:12 Speaker 02 Yes.
14:12 Ramit Sethi? What was that like for you?
14:14 Speaker 02 Pretty shocking, just to see the amount of bills that she has per month compared to what I have to pay per month.
14:20 Ramit Sethi? And what was it like for you to do the CSP?
14:24 Speaker 01 Honestly, it was very overwhelming. It was like depressing at the same time, just because I saw like the debt ratio and it was literally all mine.
14:36 Speaker 01 It's just kind of like a letdown. I don't know where I went wrong with everything. Or I just never started right, I guess, but it's just like a letdown, especially now that I have like my, you know, adult job and knowing that I make decent money and knowing that I have nothing to show for it is just like, it just, it just puts me down, honestly.
15:01 Ramit Sethi? It's kind of interesting, the way that you talk about money because you're early 30s, right?
15:07 Speaker 01 Thirty-three.
15:08 Ramit Sethi? In a way, it's like you're talking about money like you're 75 years old, like, oh, I just wasted my life. I got nothing to show for it. But when I look at it, I go, you're sort of at the beginning of your career. I'm seeing a young woman who has a professional career as a nurse, maybe didn't learn about money.
15:28 Ramit Sethi? And you're starting off. What do you think about the difference in our perspective?
15:33 Speaker 01 I wish I would think of it like that a little more because I'd be a lot easier on myself. Um, maybe a little more forgiving for the mistakes I've done. I feel like my own worst enemy when it comes to money especially, like it's something, it's so embarrassing and so shameful. Like I feel like I just carry like, you know, like this scarlet letter with money. It's something that like takes a toll on me. And I feel like I judge myself based on it.
16:06 Ramit Sethi? Can you read back some of those words you just said to me? Did you catch them? Scarlet letter, forgiveness.
16:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:13 Ramit Sethi? Worst enemy, not even worst critic, worst enemy. What else did you say?
16:20 Speaker 02 Shame. The main one was the scarlet letter. I thought that was pretty interesting.
16:25 Ramit Sethi? What do you think about that?
16:28 Speaker 02 Pretty brutal to compare yourself to that.
16:30 Ramit Sethi? Talk to yourself a lot like that about money?
16:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:33 Ramit Sethi? And other things in life too?
16:35 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:38 Ramit Sethi? And then Matt, do you talk to yourself like that about money?
16:41 Speaker 02 No, I have like a good system, I think, where I just, you know, get paid, pay my bills and then whatever's left over is what I either invest or, you know, kind of save.
16:52 Ramit Sethi? Quite a different perspective on money, right? Shame, judgment, scarlet letter. And then Matt, you use the word system. Doesn't seem emotional to you at all.
17:04 Ramit Sethi? So how did the two of you relate about money?
17:07 Speaker 01 We don't. Every time I'd watch the show when it was on Netflix, I would cry. Um, just because it's so relatable. They all said stuff that I've said and to him, he's just like, no, well, it's not that hard. You just have to pay it. And I'm always like, it's not that easy.
17:26 Ramit Sethi? Money is different. Why?
17:29 Speaker 01 I honestly have no idea. I'm definitely irresponsible with it.
17:34 Ramit Sethi? Notice the pattern of Michelle avoiding money conversations and ignoring money herself. When she finally confronts it, she immediately uses words of deep shame and guilt. You can see this so often in people's relationship, for example, with food. It's not as simple as telling them, "Just eat less," or "Just spend less," when you truly understand the psychology involved. Hearing someone talk about themselves like this always makes me sad. Think about it, most of us would never, ever talk about our friends like this. We would never call our husbands or wives these words. Yet, some of us use these words with ourselves, over and over, for years.
18:19 Ramit Sethi? And we really start to believe it. We'll delve deeper into Michelle's money psychology after this quick break from our sponsors. When I started I Will Teach You To Be Rich over 20 years ago, business organization platforms were not really a thing, especially for small businesses. Massive companies had big bespoke CRM software, but I was just a college kid trying to get to Taco Tuesday. Now, if you already have a business, you don't need to cobble together random tools like I did way back then. Instead, make things easier on yourself and harness the power of AI using NetSuite, this episode's sponsor. NetSuite is the AI-powered business management suite that securely connects all of your data.
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21:20 Speaker 02 She just needs to be more responsible and held accountable for herself.
21:26 Speaker 01 I always let bills pile up and because an insurance lapse, I guess that happened back in April, I had to give my registration like in, and so technically was suspended. And so now I technically don't have it. Like, I can't drive it for two months because of that.
21:47 Ramit Sethi? Okay. So what do you do?
21:50 Speaker 01 Literally rely on my parents taking me somewhere, like to my work.
21:55 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
21:55 Speaker 01 I don't go anywhere or him getting me. It's only been a week with it. You know, I'm responsible for like people's lives at...
22:05 Speaker 01 You know, as my profession and then it's like, hey, mom, can you get me from work? It's just kind of like.
22:10 Ramit Sethi? I'm not laughing at you.
22:11 Speaker 01 No, I mean.
22:12 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
22:12 Speaker 01 It sucks.
22:13 Ramit Sethi? But let's get to the root of why it happened. You didn't file the registration. Why?
22:18 Speaker 01 There wasn't enough funds because I spent it in other stuff that I shouldn't have been.
22:24 Ramit Sethi? Which was what?
22:26 Speaker 01 Food, ordering Uber Eats. When I get home from work, I don't want to cook anything. And then living at home, like, like I said, my mom doesn't cook, so nobody's cooking for me. So, uh, just wanting to order something.
22:41 Ramit Sethi? What do you get?
22:43 Speaker 01 It's really depending, maybe diner food.
22:46 Ramit Sethi? You order a diner food to be delivered? I can't think of a worse meal. What do you get?
22:51 Speaker 01 Pancakes.
22:54 Ramit Sethi? That does sound pretty good.
22:55 Speaker 01 Or a burger. If I can't think of my mind, it's pancakes.
22:58 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
22:59 Speaker 01 Burger.
22:59 Ramit Sethi? And like, how much does this cost? I do love understanding the total amount. Cause you know, when you order like a Chipotle bowl or something, it's like, I don't know, 13 bucks. And then if you get it delivered, it's like $37. But I'm like, okay, it makes sense. I'm not blaming anybody. Somebody needs to be paid for that. How much does your pancakes cost when you get it delivered?
23:20 Speaker 01 About like 20 with delivery and everything, probably 20.
23:25 Ramit Sethi? I don't believe that. 20 bucks?
23:26 Speaker 01 24, 24, 25, like with the tip and everything.
23:28 Ramit Sethi? Or like two pancakes?
23:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, pretty much.
23:32 Ramit Sethi? Does anyone else find this funny?
23:34 Speaker 01 No.
23:34 Ramit Sethi? $24 for two pancakes?
23:36 Speaker 01 I know.
23:37 Ramit Sethi? All right.
23:37 Speaker 01 And it's all because I get home so tired, I don't want to make it for myself.
23:41 Ramit Sethi? We once ran a pilot program on food and fitness. We hired a full-time personal trainer and we helped people lose weight and put on muscle. And some people changed their entire lives using that program. But I have to tell you, the psychology of food and weight that we learned was absolutely shocking. For example, we had a student who would binge late at night and they would describe in vivid detail how they would be eating snacks at the kitchen counter, knowing they shouldn't be and hating themselves for every second of it. That's the word they used, hating themselves. But they just couldn't bring themselves to stop. We asked them why they did it and they said the same thing Michelle said. It's dumb. I know I shouldn't. I guess I just can't get control of myself.
24:26 Ramit Sethi? I'm irresponsible. And we said, no, we don't believe any of that. And we pushed them to go deeper using the five whys technique. It turned out they were hungry because they'd skipped lunch. Why? Because they didn't pack a lunch. Why? Because they were late out the door that morning. Why? Because they had stayed up the night before watching Netflix. They were blaming themselves for this massive moral defect. But what we found was something much simpler and behavioral. You need to set a time to go to sleep and follow it. Now, food, of course, has so many different reasons for why we behave the way we do. It's not often as simple as this.
25:09 Ramit Sethi? There are often much deeper issues. And for those, I would highly recommend speaking to a trained specialist. But today, do you see the connection? And do you see how I'm doing the same thing here with Michelle? She let her insurance lapse. Why? Because she didn't have enough money. Why? Because she orders from DoorDash. Why? And so on. Sometimes the best thing you can do is to stop assigning moral judgments to yourself and instead treat your behavior like a scientist. What am I doing? Why do I do that? Why, why, why? You can learn more about how to use this approach in my program Success Triggers at iwt.com/products.
25:54 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so that's one. You get the $12 each pancakes fine. And what other bills did you have?
26:01 Speaker 01 My student loans, that's a huge chunk of it.
26:04 Ramit Sethi? What else?
26:04 Speaker 01 And I have my credit card debt.
26:06 Ramit Sethi? Huh?
26:07 Speaker 01 My credit card debt.
26:07 Ramit Sethi? What's that for?
26:09 Speaker 01 A lot of dumb stuff.
26:10 Ramit Sethi? Like?
26:11 Speaker 01 A lot of shopping, a lot of Uber Eats.
26:13 Ramit Sethi? You said shopping, you shop a lot, and you said, "It calms me." What does that mean?
26:20 Speaker 01 It just makes me feel like I'm not in the position that I actually am.
26:24 Ramit Sethi? Which is?
26:26 Speaker 01 I'm broke.
26:28 Speaker 02 It distracts her from her life.
26:31 Ramit Sethi? Have you helped her with her debt?
26:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, I did. I co-signed a loan for her.
26:36 Ramit Sethi? What? How much?
26:38 Speaker 01 It was...
26:39 Speaker 02 It's like fifteen thousand.
26:40 Ramit Sethi? What was the loan for?
26:42 Speaker 01 Consolidating.
26:43 Ramit Sethi? Consolidating your debt?
26:44 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm not really sure what she did with that.
26:46 Ramit Sethi? What? Hold on. What's happening right now? You co-signed a loan for your girlfriend, right? And did you ask like, hey, maybe I might be open to it, but I need to see your finances and we need to make a plan? Did you say that?
27:05 Speaker 02 I didn't see her finances or ask to make a plan. I just trusted her to, I guess, do the right thing. I guess I just thought she would know what she was doing.
27:15 Ramit Sethi? What do you mean? She's had debt for like so long. She tells you about money all the time, right?
27:20 Speaker 02 Well, I didn't know what kind of debt she was in. I didn't know the amount.
27:23 Ramit Sethi? Y'all hearing this as you talk about it, what does it sound like to you?
27:28 Speaker 02 We just need to talk more?
27:30 Ramit Sethi? Oh, that's for sure. That's the bare minimum. I'm glad you're here. That's why sometimes people need me as an excuse to talk about money for the first time. But like, do you see the alarm on my face?
27:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:42 Ramit Sethi? What do you think is going through my head right now?
27:46 Speaker 01 Why would you trust her with that?
27:48 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Why would you trust her? Why would you co-sign a loan? And it's not just about you, Michelle. I'm not saying that you are untrustworthy. I am saying I wouldn't co-sign almost anybody's loan. And if I did, I'll be putting them through the most... I'd be like, read my book and I would quiz them of every freaking sub-chapter. Explain this to me. What about this? What happens if this happens? I would make them work.
28:16 Ramit Sethi? So to me, this speaks to a complete lack of relationship about money between the two of you, a lack of transparency and honesty. The fact that he did not know that you had even twenty K of debt, much less ten times that.
28:35 Ramit Sethi? And Michelle, your inability to handle money. You took a loan to consolidate money
28:43 Ramit Sethi? and ended up in a worse place.
28:48 Ramit Sethi? Have you ever taken money from him?
28:51 Speaker 01 Yep.
28:53 Ramit Sethi? What happened?
28:55 Speaker 01 When I wasn't working, he had money saved up in his um, safe. And since I really wasn't working because I was studying, I would like take and then I would say I was gonna replace.
29:15 Speaker 01 And like before he noticed, I would replace it and then it just never happened.
29:22 Speaker 01 Um, and then one day he went to go grab something from it and I didn't even know how to tell him.
29:32 Ramit Sethi? What happened, man?
29:34 Speaker 02 It was just missing and I was just really disappointed.
29:39 Ramit Sethi? Did you say anything?
29:40 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:41 Ramit Sethi? What? What was the conversation?
29:44 Speaker 01 I mean, honestly, there wasn't conversation. It was actually silence, but um,
29:51 Speaker 01 it was
29:53 Speaker 01 honestly, like I still live with that guilt so bad because I literally, he's never judged me about it. He's never like made me feel less of a person for even doing that. And I went and I like betrayed him.
30:13 Ramit Sethi? Does this sound like a healthy relationship with money to the two of you?
30:17 Speaker 02 They hurt and I just lost trust.
30:23 Ramit Sethi? You tell her that?
30:25 Speaker 02 I don't think so.
30:27 Ramit Sethi? You want to tell her right now?
30:30 Speaker 02 Lost, I lost my trust with you and it hurt.
30:35 Speaker 01 Oh, I'm sorry.
30:37 Speaker 02 It was, it was gonna be her, her ring.
30:42 Speaker 02 That's what it's gonna pay for her ring with. She's always asking, you know, about a ring and that's the reason why she hasn't gotten it yet.
30:50 Speaker 01 Cause I took the funds that he had for it. I get really scared that um, he's gonna question if he sees a future with me and even my ability to be like a parent.
31:09 Speaker 01 Because of that dumb stuff I've done.
31:13 Ramit Sethi? I feel like right now we're opening up, kind of lifting the lid on something. And it feels treacherous. It feels dangerous. Does he want to stay with me? Does he think I'm going to be a bad parent? I'm going to guess that you have lifted the lid up and this is so scary. You've just covered it right back. I'm pushing away in the past. This goes so much deeper than spending money on DoorDash pancakes. Michelle feels guilty about taking money from Matt's safe, as she should. We're talking about $5,000, which is a big deal. And now she's scared that he's not going to stick around to build a future together. But he hasn't expressed wanting to leave.
31:55 Ramit Sethi? If anything, he hasn't reacted angrily enough for what I would have expected. Can you imagine what this conversation would be like if the genders were reversed? And a boyfriend stole from his girlfriend's safe? I see gender dynamics here. I see personal psychology. I see a common dynamic where someone continues to blame themselves. But after a while, you start to say, okay, now what? You can blame yourself, but it's almost starting to seem like a defense mechanism. And the question is, what are you going to do about it? I want to explore Michelle's childhood so I can understand what sorts of money situations were modeled to her when she was growing up. We'll dig into that after this break.
32:39 Ramit Sethi? And real quick, if you enjoy these videos and you want to be the first to know when we drop a new one, make sure you hit that subscribe button. It really helps my team and me grow. What happens if you're away from home and you need to see a doctor? My coworker, for example, needed to see a doctor ASAP while she was in another state and she used our sponsor, Zocdoc. Here's what she said. I searched by condition. I found someone local. It showed me people who had same-day appointments who also took my insurance. I found a great doctor who didn't make me wait and it was a total relief, especially when I was away from home. If you need to find a good doctor fast, use this episode's sponsor, Zocdoc. Zocdoc lets you search. And compare local in-network doctors.
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34:04 Ramit Sethi? That's Z-O-C-D-O-C dot com slash ramit.
34:12 Ramit Sethi? This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Grain. Now, my wife and I were recently in Paris, and they take their pastries very seriously. I'm back now from Paris, and I can't just walk down the block to visit that bakery. But I can do the next best thing, which is to bake some pastries at home in 25 minutes or less with Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake-from-frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries, and fresh pastas. Plus, the Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. They've got a variety box, they have a gluten-free box, vegan box, and a new protein box. One of my coworkers recently got a box delivered from Wild Grain with croissants,
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35:41 Ramit Sethi? Now, back to our conversation. You ever felt good about money?
35:47 Speaker 01 No.
35:49 Ramit Sethi? If you didn't feel bad about money, what would you feel?
35:54 Speaker 01 I have no idea.
35:55 Ramit Sethi? It's pretty common. People who have felt bad about money for so long, it's like having leg pain times a thousand. You get used to it. You forget what it was like to not have that. And then if I ask you, what would it feel like to not have that? People go.
36:14 Ramit Sethi? I don't know, it's been with me forever.
36:16 Speaker 01 I'm definitely irresponsible with it.
36:18 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
36:19 Speaker 01 I definitely, I wasn't taught anything with it. Like, it was a control thing growing up. So I always said, I'm not going to be controlled by money.
36:29 Ramit Sethi? Who controlled it?
36:30 Speaker 01 My dad. He was like the sole provider. He worked long hours, maybe like sixteen, seventeen a day, Monday through Friday, barely got to sleep. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom to take care of me and my sister. And he was the one that was like in control of like everything, pretty much.
36:49 Ramit Sethi? When you say control, give me a specific example where he exerted control using money.
36:56 Speaker 01 If he would say something mean to us or something, or like get out of line, he would like buy us something or give us money. That's kind of like how it started. Also, with my mom, my mom for a while was in credit card debt. And I know my dad lost his lid when he saw Macy's bill. And then he paid it off for her. But it was kind of like, it's kind of like my mom always had to go to him for money. And I didn't like that because I felt like it took her independence away.
37:29 Ramit Sethi? Because she had to ask for money. She was in a less powerful position or subservient, like, please give me money.
37:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. Or even sometimes he would just blatantly be like, oh, well, I'm the one that pays bills. I'm the one that has money. As I got older and I started like, you know, talking back, that's what I remember the conversations would be.
37:51 Ramit Sethi? So he would say, don't talk back to me. I'm the one who provides for this family.
37:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, like, or. Don't say that. You're gonna need my money.
37:59 Ramit Sethi? Wow.
38:00 Speaker 01 Or it's like, oh, it's always my money. Or you're brokey, like you're brokey, like.
38:05 Ramit Sethi? What did you feel when you heard your dad saying these things?
38:09 Speaker 01 I felt like it was disgusting. I feel like he just thought that like, because he came from another country. He had to work from such a young age and he had to kind of like, he's done very well for himself. For being born in another country and not really knowing the language and coming up like he's done, you know, his American dream. But then because of that, I feel like we'll never do good enough. He's just like, you guys will never understand. You guys are spoiled.
38:35 Ramit Sethi? Okay. I think it's true. You will never understand. I will never understand what it's like for my parents to have been born in India and come here.
38:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:41 Ramit Sethi? Right? That doesn't necessarily make me spoiled.
38:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
38:46 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Um, what did your mom say as these conversations were happening between you and your dad?
38:52 Speaker 01 Oh, she'd stay quiet.
38:54 Ramit Sethi? How come?
38:56 Speaker 01 I'm assuming she felt maybe that way about herself too. So she just would try to avoid it.
39:06 Ramit Sethi? Did you ever talk to your mom about money as a kid or as a teenager?
39:11 Speaker 01 No.
39:12 Ramit Sethi? Never?
39:12 Speaker 01 No.
39:13 Ramit Sethi? How come?
39:14 Speaker 01 Because it was my dad more that had it. So I would just go to my dad. Let's say for a field trip and stuff like that, like my mom would just always kind of make us be the one to ask for it. Like she would never ask for us.
39:27 Ramit Sethi? Looking back, do you see that as normal or abnormal?
39:31 Speaker 01 Abnormal.
39:32 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
39:32 Speaker 01 Completely.
39:33 Ramit Sethi? Me too. What happened as you got older, when you were a teenager?
39:36 Speaker 01 Uh, my dad still was the one providing. And then when I was able to get a job at 14, I started working.
39:44 Ramit Sethi? What did it feel like when you started getting a paycheck?
39:47 Speaker 01 Great. Because I didn't need to ask my dad for anything. In a way, made it seem like I needed him less, even though I didn't, because I was still living in his house and stuff. But in a way, it's like, that's how he kind of, like, he would look for any other excuse in a way to kind of like poke at you. When it started changing the most was when I had to go to college and get student loans. And that's when it all like.
40:14 Speaker 01 Went bad.
40:15 Ramit Sethi? What happened?
40:16 Speaker 01 My dad is my co-signer for my loans. I had to apply to private, like, student loans. Sally Mae. And then, when I was done with school,
40:30 Speaker 01 I had to start paying the student loans. And my dad was like, I don't even remember, like, signing these loans. The co-signer ones.
40:41 Ramit Sethi? Whoa.
40:42 Speaker 01 Yeah. And so then he would go on this tangent, saying, till this day, he still says that, like, we forged his signature. Even though I literally remotely remember the fights we would get into because of it. Because I'd tell him, like, if you don't want to do it, like, I can just work. I'll just delay. He's like, delay another semester? Like, no, do whatever you gotta do. And then I would try to explain to him. He wouldn't want to be involved, to be honest. Um, he would say he was too busy with work and all that. And so then he would just be like, here, do what you gotta do. And, you know, being dumb and young and not really understanding that interest increases and that I'm gonna have to pay everything back.
41:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, I pretty much got myself in a huge student loan debt.
41:33 Ramit Sethi? What did you graduate with in debt?
41:37 Speaker 01 Overall?
41:38 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
41:38 Speaker 01 Like, two hundred fifty thousand.
41:42 Ramit Sethi? This is so horrible. I cannot imagine growing up with a dad who talked to me like that, who talked to my mom like that, and then who lied about co-signing a loan. Yes, Michelle has responsibility here. She also signed for that loan. Now, I'm not a therapist, so I don't feel comfortable characterizing how her father spoke to her. But let's just say, my personal view is, I am extremely pissed at him. If you grew up under that kind of household, can you imagine how you would react? I don't think most of us can. So, Michelle graduated with two hundred and fifty thousand dollars in loans. Let's keep going. Looking back on the financial relationship you had with your dad regarding the co-signing of the loans.
42:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:27 Ramit Sethi? What words come to mind for you? The first words that you feel?
42:30 Speaker 01 It's really messed up that, um, he actually, like, feels that I...
42:37 Speaker 01 Would have the ability to go or honestly, just like the morals to even go and like forge that, knowing that every time we got into a fight, I would go ask him, what should I do about the semester? I would try to see. He would say, no, it'd be a huge thing. Do whatever you want. Like, I'm gonna need you because my mom doesn't have any credit, so they're not gonna give it to her. And it was just like always a headache.
43:01 Ramit Sethi? Why do you think he said that it was forged? I mean, obviously, that's not true. Why do you think he's saying?
43:06 Speaker 01 Because I think he feels stupid that he didn't take the time to be involved. And also, um, his anger and his stress took the best of him. My dad is pretty good financially. Like, he's very like strategic with his money. Takes, you know, he works hard for it. But I think he feels probably dumb that he let kind of me jump into that.
43:35 Ramit Sethi? So he feels dumb, you think? He feels angry, maybe ashamed, maybe overwhelmed that this happened and he didn't realize the implications. And so his conclusion is to do what?
43:49 Speaker 01 Blame it on me.
43:50 Ramit Sethi? Blame it on you?
43:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:51 Ramit Sethi? In other words, not take responsibility, not create a plan, just, I need this bad feeling to go away.
43:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
43:59 Ramit Sethi? Okay. Do you see any links between the way that your dad handles money and the way that you handle money today?
44:06 Speaker 02 She avoids her, um, problems with money and he avoids talking about his problems with money.
44:15 Ramit Sethi? What do you say, Michelle?
44:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, he never spoke to us about money, problems with money or anything.
44:20 Ramit Sethi? Do you talk to Matt about money?
44:21 Speaker 01 No.
44:22 Ramit Sethi? Hmm. Okay, that's one. How do you think your dad feels about knowing that he co-signed a loan and now his daughter graduated with quarter million dollars in debt? How does he feel?
44:35 Speaker 01 Guilt.
44:35 Ramit Sethi? Guilt. You ever feel guilty about money?
44:38 Speaker 01 All the time.
44:38 Ramit Sethi? True. What else?
44:42 Ramit Sethi? Does he make a plan? Is he methodical about what to do? Does he do his research and then come to you and say, I think we should do this. What do you think?
44:51 Speaker 01 No, never.
44:52 Ramit Sethi? Never made a plan? Okay.
44:54 Speaker 01 No.
44:54 Ramit Sethi? You ever make a plan with your finances? I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna pay off debt. I'm gonna know the month and year.
45:00 Speaker 01 I do it all the time. I try my best, but I never execute it. Because then it becomes overwhelming when I start seeing the numbers so big, to be honest.
45:11 Ramit Sethi? I'm gonna count that as three. Because writing a plan in a journal or kind of ruminating on it, that can feel like executing a plan, but it gets you 98% of the way there. But that last 2% is fundamentally the only thing that matters.
45:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:34 Ramit Sethi? So one, two, three links between your dad and you. What do you think about that?
45:39 Speaker 01 It sucks. Because that's like what keeps us from having a relationship now. All we do is fight about like, like my student loans.
45:52 Ramit Sethi? Any of this surprise you met?
45:55 Speaker 02 Um, I've heard stories over these seven years. So, um, not really. Because she always comes to me crying or, um, kind of expressing what happened.
46:09 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. It's a tough, it's a really tough situation, you know, with your dad who's supposed to love you in so many ways. And co-signing the check and then turning around and saying, you forged it?
46:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:24 Ramit Sethi? I mean, obviously, that's not true. But beyond that, for a dad to say that about his daughter, there's something fundamentally wrong.
46:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:32 Ramit Sethi? We all agree?
46:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:33 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
46:34 Speaker 01 I feel like overall, I haven't been able to like grow. I haven't been able to do anything.
46:41 Ramit Sethi? With your finances? With your relationship, with your family?
46:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
46:47 Ramit Sethi? With what else?
46:50 Speaker 01 My relationship with Matt even.
46:54 Ramit Sethi? Obviously, this goes a lot deeper than I can tackle myself. As a kid, she saw her dad being cruel and controlling with money. She saw her mom secretly racking up debt on her Macy's card. And then, her dad and the student loans, as if taking out a quarter of a million dollar loan was not bad enough, which again, she needs to take some responsibility for, then her dad accuses her of forging his signature on the loans.
47:21 Ramit Sethi? Knowing all this, it's no surprise that Michelle is unable to be open with Matt about her finances. Money to her is inextricably clouded with negativity. And he hasn't been pushing her to have conversations because he knows all about this family history, and he doesn't want to upset her. So he's walking on eggshells. I think it is critical that they put everything on the table and start to actually get real about what their expectations are. We're going to open up their conscious spending plan right after this.
47:55 Ramit Sethi? This episode of Money for Couples is brought to you by Wild Grain. Now, my wife and I were recently in Paris, and they take their pastries very seriously. I'm back now from Paris, and I can't just walk down the block to visit that bakery. But I can do the next best thing, which is to bake some pastries at home in 25 minutes or less with Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first bake-from-frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries, and fresh pastas. Plus, the Wild Grain boxes are fully customizable. They've got a variety box, they have a gluten-free box, vegan box, and a new protein box. One of my coworkers recently got a box delivered from Wild Grain with croissants, sourdough bread,
48:37 Ramit Sethi? gluten-free chocolate chip cookies, butternut squash ravioli, and more. She told me, "Everybody loved them, and the house smelled amazing." Imagine having fresh bakery-quality bread, pastries, and pasta at home without any trips to the store. And don't just take my word for it, they have over 40,000 five-star reviews, and they've been voted the best food subscription box by USA Today three years in a row. For a limited time, Wild Grain is offering our listeners $30 off your first box, plus free croissants for life when you go to wildgrain.com/ramit to start your subscription today. That's $30 off your first box and free croissants for life when you visit wildgrain.com/ramit or use promo code RAMIT at checkout.
49:24 Ramit Sethi? Now, back to the conversation. I think we need to look at the numbers. So the two of you put together a CSP. Did you do it together?
49:33 Speaker 01 No, virtually.
49:36 Ramit Sethi? What was that like?
49:38 Speaker 01 He didn't really say much about the obvious big debt number.
49:42 Speaker 02 I didn't see it before she submitted it. I saw it the day after.
49:46 Speaker 01 I didn't finish it until like the night of, and then that's when I told him that I finished it. And if he wanted, if he needed, like, is there anything you want to talk about?
50:00 Ramit Sethi? Interesting question. Is there anything you want to talk about? What do you think you were getting at by asking that?
50:08 Speaker 01 Do you want to ask me about like the debt? I just told him about the amount that I spent on Uber Eats, which was disgusting.
50:17 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so that was the number you focused on, the Uber Eats number?
50:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:21 Ramit Sethi? And then you said, do you want to ask me anything else?
50:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:24 Ramit Sethi? And what did he say?
50:26 Speaker 01 I think he said, uh, no.
50:29 Ramit Sethi? How did you both view this CSP assignment?
50:34 Speaker 01 He said it was easy.
50:35 Speaker 02 I thought it was, yeah, pretty simple to fill out.
50:38 Ramit Sethi? Right, so you viewed it as filling out numbers on a spreadsheet?
50:41 Speaker 02 Yeah.
50:41 Ramit Sethi? Okay, and how did you view it, Michelle?
50:43 Speaker 01 Really hard, uh, difficult, embarrassing.
50:46 Ramit Sethi? Uh huh.
50:49 Speaker 01 Overwhelming.
50:50 Ramit Sethi? Mm hmm. Quite typical of the way both of you treat money, right?
50:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:55 Ramit Sethi? For you, it's easy, it's a system, it's numbers, I have them ready to go, black and white, done. For you, full of shame.
51:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:01 Ramit Sethi? Guilt.
51:03 Speaker 01 Especially when I saw that like the debt was both of ours and then I felt guilt that I was like, here I am putting all this debt on you.
51:11 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. But neither of you really talked about it. The point of the CSP is not to get your numbers precise down to the third decimal place, that's irrelevant. What is it designed to do? Get you to talk about it. And in fact, notice some of the machinations behind the scenes, waiting until the last second to finish it, then saying, is there anything you want to ask me? It's not really how you start a substantive conversation, right? It's almost like, I'm gonna try to skirt past this as quickly and quietly as possible. Is there anything you want to ask me? No, okay, good. Submit.
51:54 Ramit Sethi? So here we are.
51:57 Ramit Sethi? And the two of you haven't talked about money even still.
52:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:00 Ramit Sethi? Should we talk about it now?
52:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
52:02 Ramit Sethi? All right, let's look.
52:05 Ramit Sethi? So assets are zero. Investments, $47,000. Whose investments?
52:13 Speaker 02 I put my 401k there and then I think I may have also put what I have in a trading account.
52:22 Ramit Sethi? All right. Savings, zero. And debt, $263,000. For a total net worth of negative $215,000. All right, what do y'all think about that?
52:34 Speaker 02 It's insane.
52:36 Ramit Sethi? Did you know that, Matt?
52:38 Speaker 02 No.
52:38 Ramit Sethi? What did you think it was?
52:42 Speaker 02 20,000 credit card debt and maybe like 100,000 student loans were.
52:46 Ramit Sethi? So almost double what you thought.
52:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
52:51 Ramit Sethi? And seeing it, what do you feel?
52:55 Speaker 02 Just really confused on how we're gonna get out of this. Because I mean, I don't have debt like that. So I never had a plan for myself to get out of it. If I was to get into debt like that. So seeing that now, it's just like, what do I do here? Kind of thing.
53:13 Ramit Sethi? What do you do here?
53:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:15 Ramit Sethi? Is it you?
53:15 Speaker 02 It should be us, but what do we do here?
53:18 Ramit Sethi? What if it's her? Any of this debt yours?
53:21 Speaker 02 A little bit. I mean, I have like maybe 20,000 student loans and then 16,000 in a car debt.
53:30 Ramit Sethi? Okay, okay. All right. So like 230 of it is yours. Ballpark.
53:37 Ramit Sethi? So what, the way I would look at it, even if I'm in a relationship where we are not married, I would say, how is she going to handle this debt?
53:47 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:48 Ramit Sethi? It's a different philosophy, right?
53:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
53:50 Ramit Sethi? Have you ever said that to her?
53:51 Speaker 02 Well, I didn't know. And because we were not married, I never pictured our finances together like that yet.
53:58 Speaker 02 But since we had to do the CSP, now it's together and just kind of changes the way I'm seeing it and thinking about it. If we get married, do I inherit this also?
54:11 Speaker 02 If something were to happen to her, how will this get paid off?
54:17 Speaker 02 God forbid. Just basically like, how can we afford anything with with that number?
54:24 Ramit Sethi? Michelle? What do you think hearing that?
54:28 Speaker 01 I never felt like it would be our debt to take care of. I always felt like it would be mine, regardless of like getting married and stuff like it's still my debt. So I never thought I would expect him to be taking care of any of it.
54:46 Ramit Sethi? So, okay. But what about the substance of this comment, which is, how are we going to get married if she has that much debt?
54:56 Speaker 01 That's what I've felt that he's thought this whole time.
55:00 Ramit Sethi? Instead of fearing what he might think, he thinks it. He just said it. So let's take that fear away. Now let's go into the substance of his question, which is a super valid question. How are we going to get married and be in a relationship if she's bringing $230,000 of debt? What's your take?
55:20 Speaker 01 Um.
55:21 Ramit Sethi? There's nobody else coming to save you here.
55:25 Ramit Sethi? I think that's part of my goal with our conversation is for you to recognize the reality of the situation here.
55:33 Ramit Sethi? Let's continue on.
55:36 Ramit Sethi? Income? 15,825 a month. Now, this is interesting. $9,300 is partner one. Is that you, Michelle? Okay, great. And partner two is 6,400 a month. That's you, Matt. Okay, so quite interesting, right? Michelle's making more by roughly 50% or so than Matt. And yet the numbers are profoundly different. When we look at fixed costs, Michelle, you're paying 99% of fixed costs from your salary. I mean, right there, that's unsustainable, right? You are broke. You're losing money every single month.
56:20 Ramit Sethi? Meanwhile, Matt, you're at 53%, which is a very healthy number. I assume part of this is because you're not paying rent.
56:27 Speaker 02 Not paying rent, yeah.
56:28 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Interestingly, by the way, Matt's not paying rent. Michelle's paying $360 in rent. 360 is also a great deal. Don't get me wrong. But at 99%, it's difficult to live. And if we look at why, we see a few things here. What do you notice about your numbers in the fixed costs? What stands out to you immediately?
56:50 Speaker 01 Uh, my debt payment.
56:52 Ramit Sethi? Your debt payment is $2,542 a month.
56:56 Speaker 02 That was the most shocking part. That was, that was the number that was left off when I was doing the CSP. When I said I was done, um, you know, I logged off and let her submit it. And then that's, I guess, the final. Number she has to input and then she sorted it.
57:13 Ramit Sethi? So when you looked at it, you were like, oh, this looks fine. Like it's fine. Like, look at this. If I zero out all the debt, oh, 58%, you were like, solid. We're good to go.
57:22 Speaker 02 Easy.
57:23 Ramit Sethi? Right. But it's not. It's 99%.
57:27 Ramit Sethi? What else do you notice, Michelle, about your fixed costs?
57:30 Speaker 01 That I shop a lot.
57:32 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Why? We determined it already, right? What is it?
57:36 Speaker 01 Because I, like, it's soothing.
57:38 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
57:39 Speaker 01 Like, filling, avoiding.
57:42 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, exactly. Gives you a sense of control, a temporary sense of control. But now let's look at the effects of that. So the effects are that this number here, clothes, Target, Amazon, miscellaneous, is $748 a month.
58:00 Ramit Sethi? Your debt goes up and up and up.
58:05 Ramit Sethi? Right? And your debt is at like $230,000. And then how does that affect your relationship now that the two of you know about these numbers?
58:13 Speaker 02 Just, um, pretty confused. I just don't know how all that adds up.
58:20 Ramit Sethi? Are you confused or are you angry?
58:22 Speaker 02 No, I'm not angry.
58:23 Ramit Sethi? Oh, can I tell you my reaction? I would be angry at my partner, who we live together, who I asked repeatedly, let me look at what you're writing and you said no. And now we have, you have this much in debt and how are we ever going to come together and get married? And what's worse isn't even the number. What's worse is that I don't have a plan. I would be angry because this is not just her debt, it's the future for the two of you. I'd love to hear you talk about money now that you have seen these numbers.
59:02 Speaker 02 I don't even know how to start. Like, what would you even do? How would you get out of it?
59:08 Speaker 02 What's the plan?
59:11 Speaker 01 Get another job?
59:13 Ramit Sethi? How does this conversation feel already?
59:16 Speaker 01 I'm comfortable.
59:17 Ramit Sethi? It feels horrible to me. I'm not even in it. You've never really talked about money. I hear that. But the first conversation that you're having is getting really negative, really fast. Can we change the dynamic of that?
59:33 Ramit Sethi? I'm about to walk them through the steps of your first positive money conversation, which is an exercise that I outlined early in my new book, Money for Couples. You can preorder Money for Couples at IWT.com/moneyforcouples and you can get the exact words to use to have better conversations about money in your relationship. IWT.com/moneyforcouples. What would you want to feel in your first money conversation?
1:00:04 Speaker 01 I'd want to feel like there's hope, like there's a chance that there is a way out of it.
1:00:10 Ramit Sethi? Okay, let's start
1:00:13 Ramit Sethi? by each of you sharing one way that this conversation about money is going to be positive.
1:00:20 Speaker 01 I would start it by saying that I'm sorry for the past and that I want to maybe set out like a payment plan or for the money I owe him for stuff. Because I feel like that one is like a huge factor on me, too.
1:00:41 Ramit Sethi? Why is this conversation going to be good?
1:00:45 Speaker 01 Because I'm being honest
1:00:49 Speaker 01 about my numbers.
1:00:50 Speaker 02 This conversation's gonna be good because we're finally communicating about our debt.
1:01:00 Ramit Sethi? Okay, next, how do you each feel about money today?
1:01:05 Speaker 01 I feel really bad about money today.
1:01:08 Speaker 02 I feel pretty confident about money, just in a sense of how to manage it and, you know,
1:01:19 Speaker 02 make sure you pay your bills first and then whatever's left over.
1:01:22 Ramit Sethi? Uh huh.
1:01:22 Speaker 02 Be safe.
1:01:25 Ramit Sethi? How about the two of you? You feel, you feel bad, you feel good? Any connection about how you feel about potentially your money together?
1:01:36 Speaker 01 We can come up with a plan for me to be able to
1:01:42 Speaker 01 get out of this so you're more comfortable and I'm more comfortable and we can save for our future.
1:01:47 Speaker 02 I feel that it's definitely scary to see that number.
1:01:56 Speaker 02 But like you said, we can create a plan and, you know, just be really disciplined with what we're spending on. I'm not saying we can't have fun.
1:02:08 Speaker 02 But really just be mindful of going to Target or needing something from Amazon. Things like that.
1:02:18 Ramit Sethi? How do you want to feel about money?
1:02:21 Speaker 01 I want to feel confident.
1:02:25 Speaker 01 Not like I'm in jail all the time. Like I want to feel free.
1:02:30 Speaker 02 I would agree with that. I'd want to feel like it's not holding us back from anything.
1:02:38 Ramit Sethi? I have to admit, I'm surprised by that last one because right now, Michelle, you seem pretty free to me.
1:02:48 Ramit Sethi? Spend on the things you want. Where's the jail?
1:02:52 Speaker 01 The one I guess I put myself in.
1:02:54 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. So isn't that the worst of all worlds? You feel constrained. You're actually just spending more than you make.
1:03:01 Ramit Sethi? You just feel bad. In a way, it seems like you almost thrive on feeling bad. You used the word dwell earlier. You know, it's caused me to dwell.
1:03:12 Ramit Sethi? But I think with your money, you dwell on it so much. It is not healthy to ruminate obsessively and to dwell on it for years. So when I hear, you know, you've made mistakes in your past. Okay, fine. Everybody's made a mistake. I've made mistakes. Fine.
1:03:33 Ramit Sethi? Matt says, like, just make a plan, pay off your debt. She just needs to get better with money. But it's not just that simple, right? I think step one is not dwelling on what's happened in the past, but rather looking to the future. And what about the consequences, Matt? Have you ever asked her directly and said, we need to have a candid conversation about money?
1:04:01 Speaker 02 I don't think so. I just, you know, like I said, I'll go over, take a look at the planner. She'll tell me, don't look, stop. And I just back off.
1:04:09 Ramit Sethi? It feels very childlike. The whole dynamic of like, let me peek. It's like two kids in junior high looking at each other and like, don't, don't look. You're in your 30s. You're talking about potentially marriage and kids. That just doesn't make sense to me as an adult. What do you think, Matt?
1:04:33 Speaker 02 She just didn't want to tell me. And I never went through with asking more questions to avoid arguments.
1:04:41 Ramit Sethi? Because if you argue, it means what?
1:04:45 Speaker 02 Just more fighting.
1:04:47 Speaker 01 But we could like be done.
1:04:49 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, maybe. It means you're a mean person. And you, you get enough fights from your family. So when you come to Matt's, you're in a safe space. But your identity is now, I'm the one who doesn't fight with her. What else is Matt's identity as it relates to you and money?
1:05:11 Speaker 01 The one that helps me.
1:05:12 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. He gives you money. He excuses when you make a bad mistake. He enables you. Based on what we heard today, you'll notice a lot of similarities in the way that Michelle behaves with money and the way her parents behaved with money. And as I try to help her make that connection. Can you think of anyone else in your life who shopped? And ran up credit card debt?
1:05:41 Speaker 01 My mom.
1:05:43 Ramit Sethi? Any connection there?
1:05:44 Speaker 01 Thought of it for a little bit because I was like, why did I continue it? Because she stopped it right away.
1:05:49 Ramit Sethi? Why did she stop it?
1:05:51 Speaker 01 She didn't have any more funds.
1:05:52 Ramit Sethi? Okay, and? Who found out about it?
1:05:55 Speaker 01 My dad.
1:05:56 Ramit Sethi? And what did he do?
1:05:58 Speaker 01 He paid it off and told her to cut it up.
1:06:02 Ramit Sethi? Okay, so you don't have that happening in your life, in part because you earn your own income, right?
1:06:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:07 Ramit Sethi? So. Your mom stopped.
1:06:11 Speaker 01 Because of the consequences.
1:06:13 Ramit Sethi? What are you realizing?
1:06:15 Speaker 01 I don't have consequences because it's. Like my income.
1:06:21 Ramit Sethi? Mm hmm.
1:06:21 Speaker 01 So I'm not feeling like I owe anyone anything, but I do owe.
1:06:26 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
1:06:28 Ramit Sethi? I don't, I'm not advocating for you to give up your income and then for you, Matt, to come in and say like, stop shopping at Macy's. That's not what I'm saying at all. I do think you're on to something by realizing you don't have any consequences. Have you ever realized that before?
1:06:44 Speaker 01 And for a second I like touched that and I was like, ooh, maybe that's me. And then that was, I think I ignored it.
1:06:50 Ramit Sethi? Kind of happens a lot, don't you think?
1:06:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I avoid.
1:06:53 Ramit Sethi? You uncover something, it's like you lift it up.
1:06:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:56 Ramit Sethi? And you go, oh.
1:06:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:06:58 Ramit Sethi? I don't like what's under there. Ah, I'm out of here.
1:07:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:02 Ramit Sethi? It's pretty interesting, right?
1:07:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:04 Ramit Sethi? Any reminders from the way you grew up? Somebody who uncovers something they don't like and then.
1:07:10 Speaker 01 My dad.
1:07:11 Ramit Sethi? Your dad does it. Does it a lot, right?
1:07:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:07:14 Ramit Sethi? Watching you see these connections between you and your dad and your mom. I think people can internalize this in one of two ways. One, they can become overwhelmed and feel. Broken. And feel. My future has already been written for me in my past. So what's the point?
1:07:37 Ramit Sethi? Everything I do is just because my dad said something in nineteen eighty eight. And now like I have no agency, I have no control. That's one. Or two, people can say.
1:07:51 Ramit Sethi? I never made the connection between why I behave this way and what my parents modeled. Now that I know that, what do I want to do about it? What do I want my future to be? Which one would you say that you are right now?
1:08:12 Speaker 01 I feel like because of all the
1:08:17 Speaker 01 the names that my parents have called me, I let them take over like who I am. So it's like in a way I'm like living up to their
1:08:29 Speaker 01 names.
1:08:30 Ramit Sethi? You're never gonna be good with money.
1:08:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:32 Ramit Sethi? Right now, you're not good with money. Oh, he called you a brokey. I can't believe that. I cannot, like you said, I cannot believe any parent ever calling their child that. And you are broke.
1:08:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:08:43 Ramit Sethi? So in a way.
1:08:45 Speaker 01 It like manifested.
1:08:46 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
1:08:48 Ramit Sethi? And just out of curiosity, if you weren't broke, if you were good with money, if you were paying your debt off steadily, do you think they would love you more or less?
1:09:00 Speaker 01 I don't know if they would love me more or less, but they would feel less useful because I wouldn't need to like depend on them.
1:09:07 Ramit Sethi? Right, right now you do, right? You live in their house. You have to ask for a ride to work. You're totally dependent.
1:09:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:15 Ramit Sethi? So in a way,
1:09:18 Ramit Sethi? you have taken the ball that they tossed you and said, great, I'm gonna run with this. What do you think about this, Matt? It's gotta be frustrating for you. Somebody who says, I have a system. My stuff runs. What's the problem? Let's just knock it out.
1:09:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's just a little sad, I think.
1:09:35 Speaker 02 She's just kind of not focusing on herself and I don't know. She makes a lot more money than me, so I don't understand how you make all this money and it all goes to your bills.
1:09:48 Ramit Sethi? So you say that to her?
1:09:49 Speaker 02 No, I didn't say that to her, but I don't want to upset her. I just try to avoid an argument. So I'm also an avoider, but in other ways.
1:09:58 Ramit Sethi? Finally, we are getting somewhere. They're finally talking about money. Matt is expressing his concerns and he's also admitting that he doesn't talk about money because he's also an avoider. They both are, although Michelle is also a worrier. Challenge now will be for Michelle and Matt to adopt new money behaviors. Step one is for both of them to have a series of real conversations about money. Do they have a future together? What are their expectations? What would success look like? And this is gonna be uncomfortable, but it has to be. Sometimes the only way to build a rich life is to walk straight through the fire. But only Michelle can get this under control. Matt can't do it.
1:10:43 Ramit Sethi? I can't do it. She has to do it by herself, for herself. Do you trust her?
1:10:51 Speaker 02 If like I had a safe? No, but yes, I trust her.
1:10:56 Ramit Sethi? Trust her with money?
1:10:57 Speaker 02 No, not yet.
1:11:00 Ramit Sethi? Could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?
1:11:04 Speaker 02 I think I just need to have control of what she's doing, kind of. And I don't want that. I don't want to be kind of like micro-managing what she does because she's an adult. She should know.
1:11:17 Ramit Sethi? So could you get married if you didn't trust her with money?
1:11:22 Speaker 02 It'd be hard, but I think I could.
1:11:26 Speaker 01 I kind of see it like, like, no, you shouldn't trust me with money. And no, you shouldn't want to get married to someone like that.
1:11:35 Ramit Sethi? And when you say that to him, what's the intent there? Because I don't think it's for him to break up with you.
1:11:40 Speaker 01 No, it's not.
1:11:41 Ramit Sethi? I think it's so that he reassures you. You feel scared. You articulate those fears to him. He goes, no, it's okay. I love you. I'm not leaving. And you feel reassured for the moment. And so what happens is the two of you enter into this dynamic where you're constantly worried and ruminating over your fears and you're reassuring. But what I haven't heard, Matt, is you saying, hey, I'm actually not okay getting married to someone who's in $230,000 of debt and worse, not actually making a Plan to pay it off. I'm not okay with that. I'm not okay with building a family when we have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt. That's only the minimum being paid. You work in finance. You know this. I'm not okay with that.
1:12:22 Ramit Sethi? And so because you're walking on eggshells afraid to upset Michelle, what happens? You end up stagnant. Nobody has any consequences. Michelle, have you had any consequences for Matt about finances? No, he didn't even know the numbers until today and you didn't share them with him.
1:12:40 Ramit Sethi? So the reason I'm getting a little upset here is that I see your future that you're sleepwalking into. If both of you go, hey, fine, I'm okay with $230,000 of debt. I don't mind taking it on. I wouldn't personally be comfortable with that, but at least you two would affirmatively discuss it and say, this is our family approach. Right now, it's just like each of you living independent lives, hoping that nothing bad happens and you can slip by the CSP and you can slip by getting married.
1:13:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:13:11 Ramit Sethi? What kind of life is that?
1:13:12 Speaker 01 A lie.
1:13:13 Ramit Sethi? Michelle, you went to nursing school, grades made you drop out. And then you fought back, went back into an accelerated program, graduated, and now you're a nurse making 120K, right? How come you got so aggressive with that?
1:13:29 Speaker 01 I think I just pretty much was tired of living like a comfortable life.
1:13:40 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
1:13:41 Speaker 01 Trying to act like I was okay with everything, even though I wasn't.
1:13:44 Ramit Sethi? Are you okay with that right now?
1:13:46 Speaker 01 No.
1:13:47 Ramit Sethi? All right. Well, then tell me what you want to do.
1:13:50 Speaker 01 I want to get ahead of debt.
1:13:52 Ramit Sethi? What would it mean to you if you could pay that off?
1:13:56 Speaker 01 I would feel confident in myself and value myself a lot more.
1:14:01 Ramit Sethi? Kind of like the way you got your nursing degree.
1:14:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:14:04 Ramit Sethi? You did that. Nobody else did that. You.
1:14:08 Ramit Sethi? One of the things I love is when I meet somebody who's really accomplished in one part of life and then their finances are a little sloppy. And they never make the connection. Oh yeah, I go to the gym all the time. I do this, I do that, but my finances are a mess. And I, I help them make that connection between the two of them. And you can see him kind of sit up a little straighter. They realize the way that I do this is the same way I can do that. So you would feel confident, you'd value yourself more. What would you do with your first rich life goal after you paid off your debt?
1:14:47 Speaker 02 Probably get a dog.
1:14:48 Ramit Sethi? What kind of dog?
1:14:50 Speaker 01 German Shepherd.
1:14:51 Ramit Sethi? It's kind of a beautiful thing to have a dog who you would love and take care of that would constantly remind you of what you accomplished. Hard work. It wasn't easy. You did it. And you get to love this dog.
1:15:09 Speaker 01 I feel proud of myself.
1:15:12 Ramit Sethi? So looking at your fixed costs here, and then if we just work our way down, you know, you're investing a lot. And of course you're spending more than you make. So let's just focus on the area that you can control. When you just painted the picture for me of feeling pride of paying off your debt, of potentially getting a dog. Tell me what you could do right here in these numbers.
1:15:39 Speaker 01 I could cut dining out, Uber Eats.
1:15:43 Ramit Sethi? How?
1:15:44 Speaker 01 I could give myself a hundred dollar to be realistic.
1:15:50 Ramit Sethi? Fine, a hundred dollars per?
1:15:52 Speaker 01 Month.
1:15:53 Ramit Sethi? Uh huh. And what about the other times you come home from late from work and you're tired?
1:15:56 Speaker 01 Just come home and make something or have it pre-cooked.
1:15:59 Ramit Sethi? Right there, that would save you hundreds. Okay, what about the Target stuff?
1:16:06 Speaker 01 I would also slash that to like a hundred dollars too, by just buying the necessities that I need.
1:16:14 Ramit Sethi? And then what else in your environment helps or hurts your chances of achieving your rich life goals?
1:16:20 Speaker 01 Living in my house.
1:16:22 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. Probably can't move out tomorrow.
1:16:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:16:26 Ramit Sethi? So what could you do to make it a better environment?
1:16:30 Speaker 01 I could well set a goal of hopefully when to be able to move out.
1:16:36 Ramit Sethi? Love that.
1:16:37 Speaker 01 That's something to look forward to.
1:16:38 Ramit Sethi? Great. What else?
1:16:40 Speaker 01 Stay at Mets some days.
1:16:43 Ramit Sethi? I think all those things are good. I think those are all very logistical things. I am willing to bet you have never said no to your family. How could you build those skills so that you could have a better relationship with your family?
1:17:01 Speaker 01 Setting boundaries?
1:17:02 Ramit Sethi? I think that's a really good place to spend some money. Get a therapist to guide you through those difficult conversations.
1:17:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:17:10 Ramit Sethi? Right?
1:17:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:17:11 Ramit Sethi? To me, when I look at the dynamic and the thing that you've you've both wanted to get married, but you haven't and the safe and all this stuff. To me, your priorities are very clear. I see you spending a ton on eating out. I see you spending a ton on this mindless stuff at Target. I don't see you putting money to spend on yourself. I'm talking about mental health.
1:17:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:17:36 Ramit Sethi? Because to me, that's everything. If you right now, the way you talk about money is shame filled. It's guilt ridden. It would not change until you learn how to say no, how to set boundaries and how to get aggressive with this.
1:17:54 Ramit Sethi? I think a lot of our conversation has been you metaphorically leaning back, saying like, I feel bad. I hate this. I made a lot of poor decisions. I just don't know what to do. But in order to be proud of yourself, what do you have to do? You have to go from here to here. You have to say, I'm sick of this. I'm making a plan. It might make a couple of people around me uncomfortable and I'm still gonna do it.
1:18:22 Ramit Sethi? And Matt, what about you? What role would you say you've been playing in this relationship as it relates to money?
1:18:31 Speaker 02 Not like getting angry with her and, you know, enabling her with the spending.
1:18:37 Ramit Sethi? I don't think you have to get angry, not with her, but I do agree you've been enabling. What else?
1:18:44 Speaker 02 Way better communication.
1:18:46 Ramit Sethi? I mean, yeah. Would you be willing to marry somebody who was in this much debt and had no plan for getting out of it?
1:18:53 Speaker 02 I said it would be hard. So I guess helping her stay on track with the plan?
1:18:59 Ramit Sethi? Part of the problem is that by you being the safety net for her, financially and otherwise, Michelle knows she has faced no consequences.
1:19:10 Ramit Sethi? The hardest part of this is both of you actually setting standards for yourself. And I don't know about you guys, but if I'm thinking about a marriage, which is the most serious bond of all, I'm setting high standards.
1:19:25 Ramit Sethi? This is what I need in a partner. This is what I expect.
1:19:31 Ramit Sethi? I'm not going to pick some esoteric thing like, I need you to do your hair this color. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about values. I expect us to have a healthy financial relationship. I expect us to be nice to each other, not to scream at each other. This is a type of love, right? It's loving yourself and raising the expectations for your partner, and then they meet it or they don't.
1:19:54 Speaker 01 I don't doubt my love for Matt, but I doubt my love for myself.
1:19:58 Ramit Sethi? Yeah.
1:19:58 Speaker 01 He won't even say like, I don't see myself marrying her.
1:20:01 Ramit Sethi? I know. He won't say it right now. And I'm not trying to get you to say that.
1:20:03 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I'm like answering that for him. So it's like, in a way, like, it's like self sabotaging.
1:20:10 Ramit Sethi? Yes, it is. Yes, for me.
1:20:14 Ramit Sethi? Relationship, if I were there with somebody who had a bunch of debt, we would be talking about it. They would be bringing it up to me. I would not be chasing them, even though a person in debt tends to avoid it. There's a lot of shame. I get that. I would have created a culture where they felt safe enough to talk about it. And it was expected. Like if you have some major health issue, it's expected you talk about it in this relationship. We're in intimate relationship. I need to know. If you have a financial problem, a family problem, I expect you to talk about it, just as you could expect that for me. Okay, then it would be, tell me about your plan. How are you going to deal with this? If there's something that is, you don't understand, let's talk about it. But you're an adult.
1:20:59 Ramit Sethi? I trust you to handle this. Because this is just one of a million things that a married couple would encounter. Right now, you can't retire. You can't buy a house. You can't do any of that. What about your kids?
1:21:13 Ramit Sethi? Matt, you want to have kids who are going to learn that dad is giving money to mom, mom is hiding it and shopping? Does that sound like?
1:21:21 Speaker 02 No.
1:21:21 Ramit Sethi? Any couple you know?
1:21:22 Speaker 01 Well, my parents.
1:21:23 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, it's just passed down.
1:21:27 Ramit Sethi? No, you elevate the conversation to a plan, because this plan is the foundation for your relationship. Without it, you'll be in half a million dollars of debt in a few years. And there's no escaping that.
1:21:41 Ramit Sethi? What do you guys hear as I say that?
1:21:46 Speaker 01 He needs to implement consequences.
1:21:49 Ramit Sethi? What are those consequences?
1:21:51 Speaker 02 That I won't marry her.
1:21:53 Ramit Sethi? I would not break off a relationship with someone just because they had debt.
1:21:59 Ramit Sethi? But if they did not show that they took it seriously, I would tell them point blank, this is what I expect in a partner. This is the easiest thing we're going to do together when we're married. We're going to have a lot more challenges. So I need to know that I can trust you as a partner.
1:22:16 Speaker 02 That's my fault. I never expressed that I wouldn't marry her. So I never kind of.
1:22:24 Speaker 02 Lay down the law.
1:22:24 Ramit Sethi? It's not laying down the law. It's you respecting yourself enough to know this is what you need in your life. You're an accomplished guy. You talked about the gym. Your numbers look solid. Everything's within the parameters. Like it's, it's very, it's like a machine. Right? You ever describe yourself as a machine before?
1:22:43 Speaker 02 We went up working.
1:22:44 Ramit Sethi? Okay, that's a yes.
1:22:46 Speaker 01 He is though.
1:22:47 Ramit Sethi? But that's one of the reasons that the two of you haven't actually been communicating is, Michelle, you're operating on feelings about the past. Feelings may feel real to you and sometimes they are valid in with reality, sometimes not. Meanwhile, Matt lives in the plan. He has his CSP, he has his numbers. It's so easy for him. But what the thing you both have in common is you have a relationship you both want.
1:23:17 Ramit Sethi? It's just that no one's actually taking the first step to say, here's what I need in a relationship.
1:23:24 Ramit Sethi? So what do you guys want to do from here?
1:23:26 Speaker 01 I need to have my goals.
1:23:29 Ramit Sethi? Yeah. You know what they are?
1:23:33 Speaker 01 To have a dog with Matt, to get married, to have a family and to just like be happy and debt free.
1:23:44 Ramit Sethi? Great, those are big goals. How do you get there?
1:23:47 Speaker 01 By paying off my debt.
1:23:49 Ramit Sethi? Make a plan to pay off your debt. You can't pay off your debt tomorrow. It's going to take years, you know that.
1:23:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:23:53 Ramit Sethi? It's fine. You have to make a plan. So you're going to make that plan? Or you're going to wait for Matt to make it?
1:23:59 Speaker 01 No, I'm going to make the plan.
1:24:01 Ramit Sethi? Yeah, it's your plan. It's her money. She owns it. You can collaborate, you can answer questions if she hasn't, but you can't take the lead. That means this whole dynamic of hiding what you're writing in the journal, it's got to change. So you make a plan.
1:24:18 Ramit Sethi? And I would go to my partner and I would say, look, this is the plan I've come up with. This is how long it's going to take me. Here's what I'm going to do in order to make it happen. What do you think? Because while it is not his money, you two are in a relationship together. And then Matt, you've got to be honest. If it says it's going to take 17 years to pay off, you might say, look, that's too long. Can you find a way to pay it off faster than that? It's going to be hard for you because you want to solve problems for her. It's not your job. So then you're going to start with the plan, cutting back on this, et cetera. And what's Matt going to see from that?
1:24:55 Speaker 01 Results by not needing to ask him for money and also by paying him back.
1:25:04 Ramit Sethi? Amazing. I actually find that very inspirational. I've known a lot of people who were in relationships where one person had debt, felt very ashamed. But what an attractive moment if that person takes responsibility and says, you know what? I made some mistakes, but I'm not going to dwell on that. Here's my plan. Watch me. Every month, boom, paid off 1%. Boom, increased that number. Boom, got a raise. Look at that smile on Matt's face. He's like, that compounding? What are you talking about? It's really impressive. This number is big and it's only getting bigger. Part of what change looks like is making rapid changes, going from leaning back to leaning way forward and getting aggressive.
1:25:49 Ramit Sethi? Trust me, you feel so good when you start getting that momentum. And then a month from now, you should see some big changes. You'll be amazed how fast this can change. But remember, this comes from both of you, not one, both.
1:26:05 Speaker 02 I think I may take her to a jewelry store so she can get motivated.
1:26:11 Ramit Sethi? A big thank you to Michelle. Michelle and Matt for sharing their story with us. I am rooting for Michelle to get aggressive with her plan. So she and Matt can start to build their rich life together. And now let's listen to their follow up videos. Up first, Michelle.
1:26:26 Speaker 01 My biggest takeaway was that I realized how many financial decisions and choices I have to make. I have to really just buckle down and get started on a plan. And just how much it's actually hurting my future with Matt. Changes I've started are I deleted all the Uber Eats apps. So it's been a couple of days. I have not ordered any food or anything. Called my loan with Matt and all those companies. And I put them on an auto pay to make sure that they're always paid. I also decided to
1:27:10 Speaker 01 give 5% of my paycheck to a fund for me and Matt that he is in charge of for now.
1:27:19 Speaker 01 For our future, I hope it helps him see too, that it's because I'm planning a future with for us. And also it helps me see that at least I have something to look forward to. I never really thought of like what my long term priorities were because of how much I felt that I was like
1:27:41 Speaker 01 drowning in all of that. And I really thank you for kind of opening my eyes to it. Once you see it's so hard, you can't even not look at it and have to tackle it and do something about it.
1:27:51 Ramit Sethi? And now let's hear from Matt.
1:27:54 Speaker 02 One of my biggest takeaways from the meeting was worrying about how her relationship with money has a lot of commonalities with her parents' relationship with money. Something that I'm trying to change and is definitely be more communicative about our finances together. And then also, something we haven't done is gone to a therapist together. She goes to therapy, but I don't. And so that's something I'd like to start, and I think it would really help us.
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