Pod Insights Money For Couples with Ramit Sethi 219. “He’s so cheap it’s killing our joy” About this episode Angela (52) and Brian (52) have been together since they were teenagers and have raised four kids.
Now as they approach being empty nesters, they’re stuck in a sitcom-style standoff: Angela loves bargain shopping and dreams of traveling the world, but Brian clings to a decades-old belief that they need $1 million to retire and panics over every pantry purchase. Their net worth proves that they’re actually financially stable—but Brian can’t shake the fear of not having enough.
Can Ramit help them rewrite their roles, align on what retirement really looks like, and find connection beyond coupons and control?
In this episode we uncover:
• Why Angela believes they’re ready to retire—and why Brian is convinced they’re still broke.
• The decades-old advice Brian can’t shake—and how it’s been quietly dictating their entire financial life.
• The performance dynamic they’ve fallen into—and how it’s masking deeper emotional needs.
• The stark difference in how they define a “Rich Life”—and what’s missing from both visions.
• How Angela uses frugality to feel responsible—and the cost of that invisible labor.
• The moment Brian saw their actual net worth, and why it didn’t change how he feels.
• What happens when couples keep score with their sacrifices—and how it erodes connection.
• How fear of losing control is stopping Brian from building the life he actually wants.
Chapters:
(00:00:00) “I’ve been chasing that number since I was 18”
(00:04:11) The emotional cost of saying no to everything
(00:19:08) Ramit breaks down their numbers
(00:29:21) “Why do we need eight jars of peanut butter?”
(00:40:57) Trapped in the “justifier” and “decider” roles
(00:50:34) Frugal lives, empty spaces
(00:58:01) “I think we’ve just kind of… drifted”
(01:06:04) How much is enough to retire—and what would make us feel safe?
(01:18:42) Where are they now? Angela and Brian’s follow-ups
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Links mentioned in this episode
• Get tickets for my next live events—September 14 in Atlanta and September 26 in Los Angeles—at iwt.com/events
Connect with Ramit
• Get my new book, Money For Couples
• Get Money Coaching with Ramit
• Download the Conscious Spending Plan
• Listen to my book—now on Audible
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If you and your partner have a money issue and you want my help, I occasionally select a couple to work with, free of charge. Apply for my help here.
Transcript 15,653 words · 5 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:36 Speaker 01 We're living too little of a life is the problem. He just says no all the time.
2:40 Speaker 02 I just cringe. And it's not about her. It's about the spending the money going out. I don't want the experience. I don't need it.
2:46 Speaker 01 One of my hobbies is also bargain shopping and it drives him crazy. So he'll say, why do we need eight jars of peanut butter? And I'll say, because they were $1.99. So I'm actually saving us money.
3:00 Ramit Sethi? How often do you talk about this?
3:02 Speaker 01 Oh.
3:02 Speaker 02 Almost every day.
3:03 Speaker 01 Every day, almost. Every day.
3:05 Speaker 02 Why are we wasting money on ridiculous food that no one eats?
3:09 Speaker 01 So finally we went and we had a really good time. And then when we left, he said, okay, that's off your bucket list now. Right? Jack, mark that off.
3:17 Ramit Sethi? What was with that comment?
3:18 Speaker 02 Stop adding things to your list of things to go out and spend money on. I need to control. And that's what it comes down to.
3:24 Ramit Sethi? Listen to this line from their application. I just worry that life is passing us by and we can be doing and spending more on life. We never eat out. Vacations are once a year. He always thinks we are poor. I need someone to tell him that we are okay money wise. So he can live life before it's too late. Today I'm speaking with Angela and Brian. They're both 52 years old. They've been together since they were in high school and they've been married for 28 years. They've raised four children together and soon they will be empty nesters. But right now money is pulling them apart. Angela is saying, is this all life is going to be?
4:07 Ramit Sethi? Now let's look at the numbers on their conscious spending plan or CSP. You can download your own copy of the CSP for free at IWT.com slash CSP. It's the exact tool I use in every episode. Income $188,000. Assets $961,000. Investments $890,000. Debt $294,000. Total net worth $1.57 million. Fixed costs 72%. Investments 35%. Okay, at 52, we have some good progress here. They're investing aggressively. They've built real wealth. But 72% on fixed costs is a red flag, especially at their ages.
4:51 Ramit Sethi? I imagine they are feeling very tight with money. And it also sounds like Angela's ready to enjoy life, but Brian thinks they are broke, which, looking at their numbers, that is clearly not the case. I have a lot of questions. Let's get into it. Angela, in your application, you wrote, "I think we are totally fine and can retire in five years. He thinks if we don't have 50 grand in the bank, we can never retire."
5:18 Speaker 01 True.
5:19 Ramit Sethi? Tell me about that.
5:20 Speaker 01 I know our money. I know what we spend. We're very frugal. And I just want to start living life a little bit more now, where Brian, on the other hand, worries about every single penny and I think feels like we need to have a billion dollars before we can retire. So my fear is that he'll be working till he's 80 and I'm ready to retire when I'm 55.
5:43 Ramit Sethi? Is it a billion or $50,000 exactly?
5:46 Speaker 02 Probably both combined, a billion and $50,000.
5:50 Ramit Sethi? How do you feel hearing the application that Angela wrote?
5:54 Speaker 02 I don't know what the magic number is. So in my mind, I have no concept of what I need to live whatever life it's going to be. And I don't even know what that looks like. You talk about the rich life. I've been going through it all week in my mind. What's my rich life? I have no idea.
6:11 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
6:11 Speaker 02 And I'm trying to get grips on that to figure out what I need to say, "Okay, I'm done." Or I'm going to work part-time or whatever. I have no concept of this.
6:21 Ramit Sethi? Is it a number?
6:22 Speaker 02 Years ago, my father-in-law said, "Well, we need a million dollars to retire." I don't even know where that number came from. I'm still trying to figure that out.
6:29 Ramit Sethi? Have you believed that number?
6:30 Speaker 02 I had believed that number since he told me probably when I was 18. I mean, I've been dating her since I've been eight, you know.
6:36 Speaker 03 Long time ago.
6:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:38 Speaker 03 So many, many years ago, when you first met, you heard your father-in-law.
6:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:42 Speaker 03 Say, we need a million dollars to retire. And so you took that to heart as an eighteen-year-old.
6:47 Speaker 02 I did.
6:48 Speaker 03 Let's talk about where you are today.
6:49 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
6:50 Speaker 03 So what is your current retirement plan?
6:53 Speaker 01 We have a lot. We both fully fund our Roth IRA. I have a 403B because I'm a teacher. I also have a pension. And then Brian has a 401K.
7:03 Speaker 03 Okay. Do you know your numbers?
7:05 Speaker 01 Yes.
7:06 Speaker 02 I do.
7:07 Speaker 03 Wow, okay. I love that confidence. Amazing.
7:09 Speaker 02 I just cried the other day.
7:11 Speaker 03 Is that true?
7:12 Speaker 01 Yes.
7:12 Speaker 02 I teared up inside because it had lost fifty thousand. I didn't even want to look at it because I knew with the market was just crashing. I'm like, I can't do it. I only looked at it because we had to prepare for this.
7:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
7:23 Speaker 03 Why do you think you both see retirement differently?
7:26 Speaker 02 I think she feels that we're at a comfortable place financially right now. Where our plan going forward, I don't see that. I think we just need more. I wish I would have started much earlier. Obviously, you can't get that time back. So we're just trying to max out what we can now. But I just think I need to keep working until I feel we're ready, I guess, in my mind. And she's ready or sooner than.
7:50 Speaker 01 We're living too little of a life is the problem. We really are not spending any money. Like, we just don't spend money. We tried to talk about when the last time we went out to eat, and I think it was two years ago.
8:05 Speaker 03 Is that right?
8:06 Speaker 01 Yes.
8:06 Speaker 03 Where'd you go?
8:07 Speaker 01 Third and Ferry, just a little restaurant that had like fun seafood specials. We had a day off of work and we went like a Wednesday afternoon for lunch.
8:15 Speaker 03 No occasion, just you both had the day off?
8:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
8:18 Speaker 01 I probably begged him to go.
8:20 Speaker 03 What was that like?
8:21 Speaker 01 It was really fun. We enjoyed ourselves. We enjoyed the lunch. We walked around the little town afterwards. We said, we're gonna do this more often, and it was probably two years ago.
8:29 Speaker 03 What happened from that day till now? Why have you not gone out to eat?
8:34 Speaker 01 He just says no all the time. We have food here at home.
8:37 Speaker 03 Oh, paint the picture. I have to hear this conversation. So do you bring up going out to eat?
8:41 Speaker 01 All the time.
8:42 Speaker 03 Walk me through it. Let's recreate the last conversation.
8:44 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:44 Speaker 01 Oh, I said the other day, the melting pot has this special where we can do half-price fondue. That would be really fun. Do you want to do that one night?
8:53 Speaker 03 Definitely not.
8:55 Speaker 02 I have no interest in going out.
8:57 Speaker 01 But it's one and it's half price.
9:00 Speaker 02 Like I said, she has a short bucket list of, or a long bucket list of things she likes to accomplish, whatever it may be, restaurants being one of them, right? I have been out recently, like I'll take my kids out to Chinese buffet for their birthday. Have one-on-one time.
9:15 Speaker 03 And how come you take your kids out, but not your wife out?
9:17 Speaker 02 Um.
9:20 Speaker 02 Don't.
9:21 Speaker 01 He feels like it's a requirement.
9:22 Speaker 02 I feel, I feel like I owe them something. This is, okay, this is part of your birthday gift, so to speak, and they enjoy going out.
9:28 Speaker 01 Meal, where are we gonna go?
9:29 Speaker 02 That kind of thing.
9:31 Speaker 03 Just wait.
9:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:32 Speaker 03 You feel like you owe your kids something for their birthday?
9:35 Speaker 02 Right, right.
9:35 Speaker 03 Okay. What about your wife?
9:37 Speaker 02 I guess I'm screwed on that one. Because I owe you same level respects.
9:45 Speaker 03 What if it's not her birthday?
9:47 Speaker 02 Um, probably we're not going out.
9:50 Speaker 03 Because?
9:51 Speaker 02 I don't want to spend the money.
9:53 Speaker 03 Okay.
9:53 Speaker 02 Because we have food here. I just don't want to go out. And it's taking away from our relationship. If that means so much to her, yeah. I'll make it a priority going forward. Um, maybe just quarterly we'll go out.
10:04 Speaker 03 Well, come on, I don't, I don't believe that. You all have been married 28 years. You know it's a priority. She's been asking you like every week for the last 20 years.
10:11 Speaker 02 Twenty, I know. It's just, uh, I don't see a point. Can we do something else?
10:16 Speaker 01 But if we do, if we do do something on my bucket list, then it's like a check mark. So like I wanted to go to a happy hour recently and it was on a Tuesday night. And he was like, why does it have to be a Tuesday? Why does it have to be a Tuesday? So finally we went and we had a really good time and we enjoyed it. And then when we left, he said, okay, that's off your bucket list now, right? Check, mark that off. So.
10:42 Speaker 03 Okay, let's zoom in on that. What was with that comment?
10:45 Speaker 02 Stop adding things to your list of things to go out and spend money on? I know this was only six bucks. It was a flight of beer. It was a craft brewery type thing. It was ambiance. It was us talking, connecting one-on-one type of thing. I just cringe. Now, it's not about her. It's about the spending the money, going out. I don't want the experience. I don't need it. Maybe I don't need the alcohol. Maybe I don't need the extra food. I need the controls and that's what it comes down to.
11:08 Speaker 03 Can we do this exact same conversation, but can we just flip roles?
11:12 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
11:13 Speaker 03 So in this scenario, Angela, you don't want to go out.
11:18 Speaker 01 Hmm.
11:19 Speaker 03 You don't want the calories. You don't want the drinks. You just don't want it.
11:23 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
11:24 Speaker 03 And Brian, you have been wanting to go out for years.
11:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:29 Speaker 03 You want to connect. You don't care how much it costs. It's not the point. It's not even an expensive place.
11:35 Speaker 02 Right.
11:35 Speaker 03 You just want to go out and spend time.
11:37 Speaker 02 Yes.
11:37 Speaker 03 With your partner.
11:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:38 Speaker 03 So everybody get into their role.
11:40 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
11:42 Speaker 01 I'm gonna be Brian.
11:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
11:44 Speaker 01 Okay.
11:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, and I would like for you to have that same conversation as each other. Go ahead.
11:50 Speaker 02 Yeah, I can't wait. Tonight, we're going out to the proper brewing.
11:54 Speaker 01 I'm not going.
11:56 Speaker 02 What? We planned on this.
11:57 Speaker 01 No, no, I decided I don't want to spend the money.
12:00 Speaker 02 You know, they have happy hour, five to seven, free munchies. They have a band that's coming in.
12:05 Speaker 01 Too crowded. I don't need the calories. We have food at home.
12:09 Speaker 02 We've been planning this for months.
12:10 Speaker 01 I know, but money, we don't need the food. We can just stay home. Maybe next week.
12:20 Speaker 03 Okay, that seemed to come very easy to both of you. What did it feel like?
12:27 Speaker 02 It was great.
12:28 Speaker 01 It's just excuses, making excuses. There's always excuses.
12:32 Speaker 03 To me, it felt like a bit of a performance. And to me, also, when I see you acting as yourselves, it also feels like a performance. How's that strike you?
12:47 Speaker 02 I feel as though like, okay, when we retire, officially, whenever that is, we have time for that stuff. Right now, it's about, you know, you relax when you come home from work. I'll do my thing. And it's kind of like, I don't know.
13:01 Speaker 03 What about the performance aspect?
13:03 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't, I don't know what you mean by that exactly.
13:06 Speaker 02 Like too dramatic? Like, like excuses?
13:10 Speaker 03 Like each of you is a caricature? Like, Brian, you are the grumpy.
13:16 Speaker 03 Older guy who is like, food, we don't need that.
13:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:20 Speaker 03 I'm like, uh, we'll do it someday.
13:22 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
13:22 Speaker 03 Just kind of a reflexive no.
13:25 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
13:25 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
13:26 Speaker 03 To anything that's asked. And even when you are begrudgingly dragged there by your wife.
13:31 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
13:31 Speaker 03 Then you have a comment at the end like, God, check it off the list.
13:35 Speaker 01 That's a hundred percent who he is.
13:37 Speaker 03 Okay, maybe.
13:37 Speaker 02 Yeah.
13:38 Speaker 03 That's, in my opinion, playing a character.
13:41 Speaker 02 Right.
13:41 Speaker 03 And then we have the wife who desperately wants to connect with her husband. Wants to spend time. It doesn't matter how much is. In fact, when I ask to do something, I'm going to emphasize how little it costs. It's only a happy hour. It's only five to seven and they have a live band. Let me please convince you to do this with me, please. Just this one thing.
13:57 Speaker 01 Exactly.
13:58 Speaker 03 Yeah. A performance. What if?
14:04 Speaker 03 You just didn't do it? What if you just? Chose to play different roles? What if? I'm not saying you have to.
14:11 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
14:12 Speaker 03 But what if you did? What would happen?
14:14 Speaker 02 You mean if I flipped the script and I started wanting to go out, just what we role play?
14:17 Speaker 03 Sure, maybe, maybe. That could be one, or maybe it could be a different role, or maybe whatever. But what if you just played different roles? Is that possible?
14:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm not gonna say impossible. Likely improbable.
14:30 Speaker 03 Okay. What about for you?
14:32 Speaker 01 For me to change my role?
14:33 Speaker 03 Yeah.
14:33 Speaker 01 I feel like I already have because I don't ask as much anymore. Or um, I will do the things that are on my to do list with a friend or one of the kids. We spend a lot of time together. It's just not those going out.
14:50 Speaker 02 Experiences.
14:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:52 Speaker 03 You can't change that, right? Can't change your roles.
14:55 Speaker 02 Anything's possible. Yes, with you.
14:57 Speaker 03 Okay. What's the vision for your retirement?
15:00 Speaker 01 I would like the travel. We've talked about getting an RV and traveling across the country.
15:04 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
15:05 Speaker 01 But I also want to travel internationally. I just really want to travel.
15:09 Speaker 03 Okay, all right. And Brian?
15:10 Speaker 02 I would say capital T travel is as well as the top of my list. But it's gonna be on the cheap, I think.
15:17 Speaker 03 What was it like to do the conscious spending plan together?
15:20 Speaker 01 I think the free work.
15:23 Speaker 01 Was a lot like that overwhelms me like we need to pull these numbers. We need to look for this. Go find this number. Go find our last car insurance, things like that. But putting the numbers on paper, I felt good about it. And I think we worked good as a team.
15:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, she had it all set up. Grand Central Station on the table there and just gave me tests.
15:42 Speaker 03 How long did it take you?
15:43 Speaker 02 Couple of days at least. What it felt like because there was this number she was asking for that I couldn't find right away.
15:48 Speaker 01 Sure. Our numbers were super accurate.
15:50 Speaker 03 By the way, Brian, when I asked, how was it filling it out? I noticed you let out a big sigh.
15:55 Speaker 02 I was relieved at the end.
15:56 Speaker 03 Yeah. But what about the part before the end?
15:58 Speaker 02 Yeah. I was just on edge.
16:00 Speaker 03 Why?
16:01 Speaker 02 I'm getting better.
16:03 Speaker 03 No, why?
16:04 Speaker 02 Well, I was irritable. Um, I don't want to see them as as much the numbers.
16:10 Speaker 03 Because?
16:13 Speaker 02 Anxiety, fear, you know, that back to that whole situation that, oh, is this all we have? We don't have enough? How are we going to do this? My father in law said a million. Are we on the right track? Are we going to get there? There's no way we can retire. I mean, these are the things that got me on edge.
16:30 Speaker 03 This interesting, this reference to your father in law. So you're 52 years old.
16:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:34 Speaker 03 So you heard that like roughly 30 years ago.
16:38 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah. High school.
16:40 Speaker 03 How interesting. These phrases that we hear when we're younger and they stick with us.
16:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
16:46 Speaker 03 They can alter the trajectory of our life.
16:49 Speaker 02 For sure.
16:49 Speaker 03 Of our relationship.
16:51 Speaker 02 Hmm.
16:51 Speaker 03 That your dad making this comment can echo in time.
16:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:56 Speaker 03 30 years later, when you're talking about going to happy hour.
16:59 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I don't even remember him saying that.
17:02 Speaker 03 Is he still with us?
17:02 Speaker 01 Yes.
17:03 Speaker 03 What does he say now?
17:05 Speaker 02 I just dropped him off at the airport today. They're heading to Florida.
17:08 Speaker 03 But what did he say about a million dollars?
17:10 Speaker 02 I didn't ask. I did not. I did not ask him.
17:12 Speaker 03 You brought it up once. You've never brought it up. You let it guide your life?
17:15 Speaker 02 Never again.
17:16 Speaker 03 Hello, what is happening right now? Should we get him on the phone?
17:19 Speaker 01 But I said.
17:20 Speaker 02 We could. We could.
17:20 Speaker 01 I what I said to Brian this morning was, why are you even thinking about his financial advice when he keeps his money under his mattress? So he's not.
17:32 Speaker 03 Dear God.
17:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:34 Ramit Sethi? Isn't this fascinating? Brian has been holding on to a single number for his entire adult life. $1 million. That's the number Brian heard when he was 18 from his father-in-law. And he just absorbed it. He didn't question it. He adopted it as gospel. And that single number, that single offhanded comment, has shaped how he sees money and retirement and even his marriage. This is the power of one offhand comment. It's not a spreadsheet. It's not a budget. It's just a sentence that he heard that calcified into a deeply held belief
18:15 Ramit Sethi? that decades later is now affecting every relationship about money with his wife. Sad truth is, if Brian still believes that number is the goal, but he can't define what retirement looks like or how much it costs, then no amount of money will ever feel like enough. That's why he can't enjoy a $6 happy hour. You know, the most ironic part of this whole story? His father-in-law isn't even someone he admires when it comes to money. It's like taking dating advice from your uncle who's been divorced three times and lives in his grandma's basement. Just because someone says something with confidence when you're 18 years old does not mean you should let that shape your entire worldview.
18:56 Ramit Sethi? And yet Brian's been living by that million-dollar myth for over 30 years. After this, I'm going to dig into their numbers. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee-only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary,
19:40 Ramit Sethi? who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets your needs. Where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision. And Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet
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21:43 Speaker 03 Does he enjoy his money?
21:45 Ramit Sethi? No.
21:46 Speaker 01 No.
21:46 Speaker 03 Does he live the kind of life that you want to live?
21:49 Ramit Sethi? No.
21:49 Speaker 01 No.
21:50 Speaker 03 Oh. I don't even know what that is, but it's not that. We should definitely follow his advice.
21:57 Speaker 03 Let's look at the numbers. Let's see here. Angela,
21:59 Speaker 01 Yes.
21:59 Speaker 03 Can you read the word in bold?
22:01 Speaker 01 Oh my gosh, can I?
22:02 Speaker 03 And the number in full next to it?
22:05 Speaker 01 Assets. No, I actually can't.
22:08 Speaker 03 Is it too small? I'll make it bigger.
22:09 Speaker 02 I see it.
22:10 Speaker 03 Okay, go ahead.
22:10 Speaker 02 Nine hundred sixty one thousand.
22:12 Speaker 03 Great. Investments?
22:14 Speaker 02 Uh, eight ninety one, eight seventy three.
22:16 Speaker 03 Eight hundred ninety one thousand. Yep. Savings?
22:18 Speaker 02 Fifteen thousand, seven eighteen.
22:21 Speaker 03 And debt?
22:21 Speaker 02 Two ninety four, two hundred ninety four thousand, three hundred and forty two dollars.
22:25 Speaker 03 Perfect. Total net worth?
22:26 Speaker 02 Uh, one point five seventy four thousand.
22:30 Speaker 03 One point five million dollars. Okay. How do you feel about those numbers?
22:33 Speaker 01 I think they look great. He never saw that one point five before. I didn't want him to see that net worth before he saw it here.
22:41 Speaker 03 Uh huh.
22:42 Speaker 01 To get his true reaction.
22:43 Speaker 03 Wow. Are you from the TV industry or what? That's a classic producer move. Get it on camera. Well done. And Brian, what do you think? One point five million dollars.
22:55 Speaker 02 Looks good on paper. Is it real?
22:58 Speaker 03 Wow. A depressing answer to an otherwise
23:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:01 Speaker 03 seven-figure number. Let's not even take a second to celebrate it because we don't celebrate it. We just worry about what's coming next.
23:08 Speaker 02 Oh, doom and gloom.
23:09 Speaker 03 Sound familiar?
23:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:10 Speaker 02 It does.
23:11 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
23:12 Speaker 03 Well, the thing is, you're in your 50s.
23:14 Speaker 01 Yep.
23:15 Speaker 03 You can keep living this way. You can, or you can change the entire way that you individually relate to money and you collect it.
23:23 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
23:24 Speaker 03 To realize that for your entire adult life, you've been working towards having one million dollars.
23:30 Speaker 02 Yeah.
23:30 Speaker 03 And you actually have 50% more than that. You were worried 20 minutes ago?
23:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
23:34 Speaker 03 We just discovered that your financial life is way different, probably better than you thought.
23:39 Speaker 02 Right.
23:39 Speaker 03 It did not change a single feeling, not even for a second.
23:42 Speaker 02 It did. It was the second. I internalized it. You didn't see it.
23:46 Speaker 01 The goalpost always moves.
23:48 Speaker 03 I don't even mind goals moving. I don't.
23:51 Speaker 02 Yeah.
23:51 Speaker 03 I don't mind goals moving. I mind if they're moving without reason.
23:55 Speaker 02 Right.
23:56 Speaker 03 If it's somebody who is just picking a number, holding their finger in the air, and then I go, why? They go, I don't know. My father-in-law said it 30 years ago.
24:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:05 Speaker 03 I go, that's how you're making decisions? Right. And like, literally, we're not talking about just a couple of small decisions like happy hour. We're talking about what retirement looks like. So today, actually, really excited to get a chance to add a little bit of intellectual rigor to the way you're thinking about money. Okay, let's look at the rest of these numbers. Income, Angela, gross monthly combined income?
24:31 Speaker 01 Fifteen thousand, six hundred and seventy-four.
24:33 Speaker 03 Cool, so you have a household income of a hundred and eighty-eight thousand dollars. What do you think about that income?
24:38 Speaker 01 I actually think it's great.
24:40 Speaker 03 I'm, yeah, I'm thrilled. Who's the person who makes double the other? Brian makes double what Angela?
24:46 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
24:47 Speaker 03 Got it. Okay, cool, that's a very good income. Great job. Fixed costs, all right, seventy-two percent.
24:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:54 Speaker 03 It's a bit high.
24:55 Speaker 01 Very high.
24:56 Speaker 03 Shall we take a look? Yeah. Your mortgage is three thousand, five hundred bucks. Okay, we have a car payment of six forty-one, no debt, groceries of five hundred bucks a month for two kids at home and two adults. Wow.
25:10 Speaker 01 Yes.
25:10 Speaker 03 Nice, nice work. Phone at one oh seven and subscriptions at six dollars a month? That can't be right.
25:17 Speaker 01 It is.
25:17 Speaker 03 What's six? What are you getting for six?
25:19 Speaker 01 Two dollars, I pay extra for Apple storage.
25:24 Speaker 03 Okay.
25:25 Speaker 01 And four dollars, he does the MLB app.
25:28 Speaker 03 Okay, that's it?
25:29 Speaker 01 Only in baseball season.
25:30 Speaker 03 Like, I'm like, did you all leave a couple zeros off this?
25:33 Speaker 01 No.
25:33 Speaker 03 No, it's literally six dollars.
25:35 Speaker 01 No.
25:35 Speaker 03 Do you have Netflix or something like that? None of that?
25:37 Speaker 01 I do, like, Discovery and we have Hulu, but we put that up with our...
25:42 Speaker 03 TV or something.
25:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, exactly, cable, we did that with cable.
25:45 Speaker 03 Okay. Honestly, this is the lowest subscription number I've ever seen that is correct. Like, I have to give you a round of applause. This is actually amazing. I've never seen it. Look at the numbers, they look fake on the page. Two, four, six, I'm like, what is this?
25:56 Speaker 01 They do look fake.
25:57 Speaker 03 No, it's accurate. I can't believe it. You've mentioned in your application, like, we are extremely frugal. We don't spend money on anything. And I think six dollars for a family of four and two kids out of the house is... That is very frugal.
26:12 Speaker 01 Thank you.
26:12 Speaker 03 Okay, and yet, your fixed costs are seventy-two percent.
26:16 Speaker 01 It seems crazy.
26:17 Speaker 03 Why do you think that is?
26:18 Speaker 01 I often think is our mortgage too high, but there's nothing we can do about that. We actually pay extra in that mortgage. So we pay 400 extra into that.
26:27 Speaker 03 What's your interest rate? 3.337 or something. Your housing cost is okay. It's 27% when we factor it all in. Usually we like to see it below 28. It's very difficult to get that. You have a very low interest rate and you're paying extra. So it's probably more like 22 or something. You do have 750 bucks in utilities and you have insurance for 600 bucks. You have a car expenses for 641. All that stuff adds up.
26:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:55 Speaker 03 Even with a high income. It's not horrible. And actually we could drop this number right now. Like I'll just drop it right now. Instead of 3501, I'll drop it to 3101.
27:08 Speaker 01 Okay.
27:08 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're at 67%, which is okay. It's not bad. Investments at 35%. Okay, so we have your post tax and pre-tax. So you're investing 3,000 bucks a month. That's good. And your investments are $891,000. Okay, very good. As you get older, particularly if people started late in life, that number needs to be high. A lot higher than most people are comfortable with.
27:30 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:30 Speaker 03 So this is nice. Are you saving money for anything at all? Any savings?
27:34 Speaker 01 Both of our checks just automatically get deposited into our savings and that's.
27:39 Speaker 03 Then you use it from there?
27:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, we just use it from there. Sometimes if our account gets high, high, we'll take some out and like throw it into a CD.
27:47 Speaker 03 Huh?
27:47 Speaker 01 It's because I don't want that money locked up for a long time. So I'm like, I could throw it in for six months and make 4%.
27:54 Speaker 03 Yeah, don't, don't do that.
27:55 Speaker 01 Okay.
27:57 Speaker 03 Who taught you that?
27:57 Speaker 01 My dad. My dad.
27:59 Speaker 03 Get your dad. You know what? We have your dad here. Roll on the, come on. Why is your dad opposed in this relationship? And your dad who doesn't really use money effectively? What is happening right now?
28:10 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I don't know.
28:11 Speaker 03 Dad is telling you in 1968, you gotta buy a CD. It's so good. It's a liquid, but it's good. What the [bleep]? CD make no sense anymore. Do you spend any money guilt free? You don't really go out to a restaurant. Maybe you go out to the happy hour place, you know, every month or whatever, couple of months.
28:27 Speaker 01 Not much.
28:28 Speaker 03 Anything else?
28:29 Speaker 02 Needs, you know, if I need light bulbs, the mower breaks and I have to fix it.
28:33 Speaker 03 That's a rich life.
28:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, I know, totally, right?
28:35 Speaker 03 I love my light bulbs.
28:36 Speaker 02 If something breaks, I need it to fix it.
28:40 Speaker 01 He's going to your concert Friday night.
28:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's, that's the only, that's one of the few things that I would do.
28:46 Speaker 03 Hold on, hold on. You're going to a concert?
28:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:48 Speaker 03 I love that.
28:49 Speaker 02 Yep.
28:49 Speaker 03 I noticed that when she said he's going to a concert, your immediate reaction was to defend it. Can you try it again and this time accept it? Yeah, I'm going to a concert.
28:58 Speaker 02 I'm going to a concert.
28:59 Speaker 03 And?
29:00 Speaker 02 Oh, that's definitely guilt free spending for me. I usually go by myself because I enjoy it. And, um, a band from the eighties is gonna be playing in the Poconos.
29:10 Speaker 03 Which band?
29:11 Speaker 01 Winger.
29:12 Speaker 02 Winger.
29:12 Speaker 03 What are they singing?
29:13 Speaker 02 Hip Winger.
29:13 Speaker 03 What'd I know?
29:14 Speaker 02 Um, Seventeen, Madeline, this is from the late eighties.
29:17 Speaker 03 Okay, so you are having some guilt free spending.
29:20 Speaker 02 Yes.
29:20 Speaker 03 It's just not properly classified as such. It just kind of comes from this slush fund.
29:24 Speaker 01 Exactly. And that's why we don't necessarily put anything to savings, but all of our money goes in savings.
29:31 Speaker 03 Yeah, but I do want to point out that if one or both of you got laid off, you have two months' worth of savings. That's risky.
29:40 Speaker 02 Yep.
29:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's typically not that low, but we bought cars and then our financial advisor told us because.
29:47 Speaker 03 What?
29:47 Speaker 02 We were trying to time the market.
29:49 Speaker 03 What the [bleep]? I didn't know about this. Tell me.
29:51 Speaker 02 Well, this has just happened recently.
29:52 Speaker 01 So typically we would pull $600 out of our checking account each month for both of us.
29:58 Speaker 02 The Roth.
29:58 Speaker 01 To fund the Roth.
30:00 Speaker 03 Okay.
30:00 Speaker 01 So he just said, because the numbers dipped, why don't we?
30:05 Speaker 02 Max it out.
30:06 Speaker 01 Just max it out. So we took.
30:08 Speaker 03 What is this guy worth for? Hold on, does this guy work for Northwestern Mutual or was he your high school buddy? Which one?
30:13 Speaker 01 No.
30:14 Speaker 03 Which one is it?
30:14 Speaker 01 He's from my school district.
30:18 Speaker 03 So he's preying on you and other schoolteachers? These [bleep].
30:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:23 Speaker 03 Okay, so this is your financial advisor?
30:25 Speaker 01 Yes.
30:25 Speaker 03 Col- colleague?
30:27 Speaker 01 Um, not a colleague. That's like his job.
30:29 Speaker 03 He serves teachers, okay.
30:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, he just serves teachers. And I did just find out, because I hear you say it all the time about paying a flat fee versus the percentage.
30:37 Speaker 03 He definitely charges.
30:38 Speaker 01 So he charges me 0.8% and he charges 0.9% to Brian because he doesn't have as much money in that I do.
30:49 Speaker 03 Do you think that's good or bad?
30:50 Speaker 01 I don't know.
30:51 Speaker 03 It's bad.
30:52 Speaker 01 Is it?
30:52 Speaker 03 Yes, it's bad. So you're paying to get horrible advice?
30:56 Speaker 01 I guess you're right.
30:57 Speaker 03 We trust you.
30:57 Speaker 01 Because we pulled 6,600 plus 6,600 out of our checking account last week and fully funded our Roth through the end of the year.
31:05 Speaker 03 Well, that's fine.
31:07 Speaker 01 Okay, so that wasn't bad advice?
31:09 Speaker 03 No, it's not necessarily bad. It's the principle of trying to time the market. Yeah. No credible advisor would tell you that. Yeah. Whether it's up, whether it's down, we want to do it consistently. So, I don't like that. I don't like a 0.8 and 0.9% fee, which, you know, over time would cost you a lot of money. I don't like that you got this guy through your school district. I don't like a lot of this.
31:33 Speaker 01 Okay.
31:33 Speaker 03 How long you been paying this guy? Please don't tell me decades.
31:36 Speaker 01 10 years. But I mean, the positive about that is it started me investing from the day I started working. I was a stay-at-home mom for 13 and a half years, so I had no retirement. I carry the health insurance and I fund my retirement. And then what comes in the mail or comes into my checking account every week is literally $1,059. That's what I make every two weeks because they were my goals, to fund my retirement.
32:04 Speaker 03 Yeah.
32:05 Speaker 01 Which, you know, it looks pretty good after just 10 years. Um, but yeah, that is where I met him.
32:10 Speaker 03 Okay. Now I think I understand a little bit more about the numbers. Let me ask about you. Can you think of a time recently where you were not on the same page with money?
32:22 Speaker 01 Oh my gosh. If you want us to talk about the whole food issue, we argue about this all the time and I have a very, I'm always justifying. I justify money all the time.
32:32 Speaker 03 You're justifying this answer to me right now.
32:34 Speaker 01 I am justifying this to you. So I'm the shopper in the house, so I do all the grocery shopping. But one of my hobbies is also bargain shopping. So in our area, we have lots of like bargain grocery store type places. So I just hit them once a week. And if something that I buy regular is on special, I will stock up on it. And it drives him crazy. So he'll say, why do we need eight jars of peanut butter? And I'll say, because they were a dollar ninety-nine. And he'll say, but we don't need eight. And I'm like, but then next week I would go to the store and they'd be three ninety-nine. So I'm actually saving us money. He doesn't like this.
33:17 Speaker 03 How often do you talk about this?
33:19 Speaker 01 Oh.
33:20 Speaker 03 Almost every day.
33:20 Speaker 01 Every day, almost. Every day. Not always peanut butter. It's mozzarella cheese, it's fruit snacks, Pop-Tarts, granola bars, protein bars.
33:29 Speaker 03 Like how many um granola bars?
33:32 Speaker 02 How many? Can you count? How high can you count?
33:33 Speaker 01 Ten different types.
33:35 Speaker 03 Ten different boxes?
33:36 Speaker 01 Ten different boxes.
33:36 Speaker 03 So ten boxes of six?
33:38 Speaker 01 Yep.
33:39 Speaker 03 Okay, sixty granola bars. All right, what else?
33:41 Speaker 02 Let's move on to nuts.
33:42 Speaker 03 Okay.
33:43 Speaker 02 Okay, I don't know, planters nuts, cashews, some other nut covered in something, another nut covered in something.
33:49 Speaker 01 So I just bought them and they were ninety-nine cents. So I bought six bags of the savory type and six bags of the cappuccino flavor.
33:59 Speaker 03 Hmm.
34:00 Speaker 01 And they will be gone.
34:01 Speaker 03 There's thirty bags of chips. You name any chip in the world and it's in our pantry. Why do you? Get two bags of chips, not thirty bags of chips. That's just the pantry. When you see these large volumes of snacks, what does it say to you?
34:16 Speaker 02 I just want to throw up.
34:17 Speaker 03 Okay, why?
34:18 Speaker 02 Because it's just wasteful. It's just, it's gonna go stale. The kids don't eat it. She thinks she's feeding the kids or feeding someone. It's terrible. Why are we wasting money on? Ridiculous food that no one eats. So I went in there and I just went ballistic. So I got a trash bag, thirty gallon trash bag full of anything fruit snacks. Gummies, fruit roll ups. Pulled that whole thing out like Santa and I threw it in the bedroom. And it sat in the bedroom for about six weeks. That's just one aspect. If I go to my fridge in the garage, that's our alternate fridge. There's thirty packages of mozzarella in there. I don't eat mozzarella. Sam doesn't eat it. Larson doesn't eat it and she doesn't eat it. I don't know who is eating this stuff.
35:01 Speaker 02 Our two kids that come and visit for like two days. I don't care if they were a dollar per package. That's a dollar out of my gas tank. That's a dollar that I'm not funding something.
35:11 Speaker 01 That's his line.
35:12 Speaker 02 Waste.
35:13 Speaker 03 What's the line?
35:14 Speaker 01 It could have been a dollar in the gas tank.
35:16 Speaker 03 And what does that make you feel when you hear that?
35:18 Speaker 01 Oh, it's frustrating because I have very much changed my ways. So now when I am shopping, it's almost like I have handcuffs on. Like I'll look at something and.
35:30 Speaker 03 Well, how many handcuffs can you have if you're buying six hundred protein bars? Doesn't sound like they're that strong. She goes, I got handcuffs on. I just take them off with a protein bar.
35:38 Speaker 01 You don't, you don't understand what I mentally go through in the grocery store.
35:41 Speaker 03 Tell me.
35:41 Speaker 01 So like I literally will pick something up. I'll be like, wow, that's a great price, but then I'll have to look at the calories. Cause you know, my one daughter's gluten free and dairy free. The other one's worried about this. He's worried about calories. So it's a struggle with every single product. Like this is a great product. I wish I could buy it, but I don't know who's gonna eat it. I better not. And then I put it back. So.
35:59 Speaker 03 Can I tell you, it sounds very dramatic. It almost sounds like we're on Broadway and it's a play. Each person's playing their part.
36:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
36:07 Speaker 03 We have Brian. Oh my God, what?
36:12 Speaker 01 Yep.
36:13 Speaker 03 Right?
36:13 Speaker 02 Every time.
36:14 Speaker 03 Every time pulling in a Santa Claus type bag over his shoulder. And then we have Angela going like, you don't understand. I used to buy more.
36:23 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
36:24 Speaker 03 And also I'm saving money because otherwise I would be paying three times more for that peanut butter. It's pretty funny, but is this the way you want to spend the rest of your life?
36:33 Speaker 02 No.
36:34 Speaker 01 No.
36:34 Speaker 02 No.
36:35 Speaker 03 Why do you do it? You must be getting something out of it.
36:39 Speaker 01 Because I'm set in my ways now with the way I shop.
36:43 Ramit Sethi? Oh, like I have to buy bargain shopping.
36:47 Speaker 01 I do.
36:48 Ramit Sethi? That's who I am.
36:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, it's true.
36:50 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
36:50 Speaker 01 I consider it one of my hobbies.
36:52 Ramit Sethi? Okay, how do you think that this hobby is certain?
36:55 Speaker 01 I feel like I'm being responsible to our household because I feel like the four of us being able to eat for $500 is great. I also think what would my other hobby be and how much money would I be spending if I chose a different hobby? And I I physically cannot go to a regular grocery store and pay those prices.
37:15 Ramit Sethi? Oh, you physically can.
37:17 Speaker 01 I physically can. I every other way cannot.
37:20 Ramit Sethi? Mm hmm. Wow. Brian just saw his net worth for the first time and it was 1.5 million dollars. Did you see it? Angela had to stage the reveal just to get a live reaction. And his response tells me everything about his money mindset. Did you see it? Looks good on paper. This is what happens when you've trained yourself to worry for 30 years. Even when you've been working towards a number and you discover you have 50% more than that number at age 52, even when you are financially okay, your default worldview is doom.
37:59 Ramit Sethi? This is what so many people in the hyper frugalista world don't realize. If your entire worldview is about how little you can spend, how risky money is, how there'll never be enough, then even when you have more than enough, your feelings will not change. Now zoom out. Look at what's really going on here. Arguments about peanut butter, trash bags full of fruit snacks, spending time and energy discussing the fine points of mozzarella. This is not just quirky behavior. This is what I call the sitcom dynamic. I write about it in my book, Money for Couples. Now, we all know a couple like this, the couple that bickers like it's their love language. They jab each other. They finish each other's complaints. Everybody laughs at dinner parties,
38:40 Ramit Sethi? but they just keep doing it over and over again. It's like a rerun. And at first it's kind of funny, might even be charming, but when you realize they've been doing this for decades. It's actually quite sad. Angela and Brian are playing characters. She's the coupon queen in the grocery aisle who still somehow buys 600 protein bars. He's the grumpy guy pulling granola bars out of the pantry and dumping them in the trash. Both of these are performances. They both think they are being productive. This bickering gives them a false sense of progress, but the truth is they are stuck in a dynamic that feels familiar and safe, but it is actually eroding their connection.
39:25 Ramit Sethi? Do you know anybody who has a sitcom dynamic like this? Where they both jab each other and they both joke, but it's not really a joke? When you ask people in a dynamic like this, "Do you like it?" They go, "No." So why does it keep going? Well, it's what we know. Even when something isn't serving us, doing what we've always done feels more comfortable than change. And deep down, I gotta tell you, it's easy to argue about groceries. But asking questions like, "What do I actually want from retirement?" is way harder than complaining about granola bars. These dynamics are really hard to change, but if you want to, you can change them. I talk about changing your money dynamic in my new book, Money for Couples.
40:10 Ramit Sethi? And if you want to learn how, you can download the first chapter for free at iwt.com/mfcpreview. Money for Couples, iwt.com/mfcpreview. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying. You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee-only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets.
40:55 Ramit Sethi? And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision and Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members and for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have
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43:02 Speaker 03 It's interesting that the hobby for you, the primary sense of joy seems to be, how much value can I get? In other words, how little can I pay and get good stuff? But on your application, you wrote, "We never eat out or go out. We save money whenever we can. It's hard to know we are financially fine, yet he thinks we are poor."
43:26 Speaker 01 That's all, yeah.
43:27 Speaker 03 I agree, that's a problem, but what role do you have in contributing to this?
43:34 Speaker 01 Gosh, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. I really don't. Other than maybe the quantity of what I bring things in. And like I said, I do feel like I have curbed that. But if you told me you can't bargain shop anymore, you need to just go to a regular grocery store and buy one jar of peanut butter, that would go against every green in my body. I would rather not eat.
43:55 Speaker 03 You mean that?
43:56 Speaker 01 I really do.
43:57 Speaker 03 Playing so small that your hobby is shopping in bulk for kids that are grown and don't even really eat this stuff? Husband coming in with his ho, ho, ho bag saying, "Oh, this sucks."
44:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:11 Speaker 03 What I really want you to see is the characters you're playing. If they are the characters you want to play, amazing, I'll help you play them even better. But I actually don't think you like the characters you are playing. And what you may not realize is you don't have to play characters at all. What part were you playing?
44:30 Speaker 01 The justifier.
44:31 Speaker 03 Yes, I need to gather all the information to convince my obstinate husband why to say yes. Because by default, he's gonna say?
44:42 Speaker 01 No.
44:43 Speaker 03 And Brian, what role were you playing in? Probably the victim. Like, don't have to do this again. Wow. There's something quite chilling about hearing somebody talk about that with their... Again, that's tongue in cheek. But, but, is it though? Because here I am talking about playing characters. You guys have been married 28 years and the sitcom dynamic is not working for me. Like tongue in cheek saying like, "I'm the victim because I gotta spend time with my wife." Yeah. I don't find it funny. And I think you guys have found a way to camouflage what is ultimately... Some serious disagreements and pain with laughter and jokes and jabs. Guys, I would never talk to my wife like that. The role you're playing, besides the tongue in cheek role of actually something I think is quite hurtful,
45:28 Speaker 03 is the decider. Let her bring the data to me and I will evaluate it and decree what we will do.
45:36 Speaker 02 Right.
45:37 Speaker 03 Why do you decide? Why don't you decide? Why have you agreed on this role where you have to plead and beg? Oh, please let me provide you the data. Please decide in my way. Why?
45:48 Speaker 02 She could always go. I'd never stop her if she wanted to do something.
45:51 Speaker 03 That's not my question. Anyone can always go.
45:53 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:54 Speaker 03 You two are married. She wants to go with you.
45:56 Speaker 02 Yeah.
45:56 Speaker 03 Why are you the one who decides?
45:58 Speaker 02 I sh-
45:59 Speaker 03 Why? I'm not saying, I'm not saying what should be. I'm saying why is that role the one that has emerged?
46:04 Speaker 02 I don't know. Let's do something that doesn't require money.
46:10 Speaker 02 That's how I feel. I don't want to spend the money.
46:12 Speaker 01 I really want my life to be full of experiences and doing things and going places. And he more is a homebody. And like you said, when he comes home from work, he does want to eat dinner, hang with the kids for a little workout and go to bed early.
46:27 Speaker 03 Okay, can you make it work with both of your visions?
46:31 Speaker 02 Yeah. I mean, as long as we book it in advance and it's not off the cuff and the financial piece is justified.
46:38 Speaker 03 Oh.
46:39 Speaker 02 That it's-
46:39 Speaker 03 How do we tell if it's justified?
46:40 Speaker 02 That's probably my-
46:41 Speaker 03 Oh, so you-
46:42 Speaker 02 My role book-
46:42 Speaker 03 You're the decider.
46:43 Speaker 01 He's the decider.
46:44 Speaker 03 You guys see how you've created this tautology?
46:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
46:47 Speaker 03 Oh, sure, we can reconcile our mutually disagreed views if we plan in advance.
46:53 Speaker 02 Right.
46:54 Speaker 03 And this thing happens. And also ultimately I'm the decider of whether it's financially justified or not. Do I know about our numbers? No, I don't even know our net worth as recently as 10 minutes ago. But I will decide. Does it sound absurd as I say it out loud?
47:06 Speaker 02 It does sound absurd.
47:07 Speaker 03 And yet you've been doing it for almost 30 years.
47:08 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
47:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:10 Speaker 03 You want to keep doing it? Wow, I didn't hear a no in that. That's interesting. You know what?
47:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:16 Speaker 03 Let me just tell you something.
47:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:17 Speaker 03 If you want to keep doing it.
47:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
47:19 Speaker 03 I don't mind.
47:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:21 Speaker 03 Trust me, I'm not here to change your mind.
47:23 Speaker 02 Right.
47:24 Speaker 03 Please remember, you came to me.
47:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:25 Speaker 03 So if you tell me, Ramit.
47:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:28 Speaker 03 We actually like the way it works.
47:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
47:30 Speaker 03 I won't change you if you don't want to change.
47:32 Speaker 01 Hmm.
47:33 Speaker 03 But I don't think you've actually ever thought deeply.
47:37 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
47:38 Speaker 03 About the dynamics between the two of you and money.
47:42 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
47:43 Speaker 02 It's that food bill, that is the biggest overarching issue right now.
47:50 Speaker 03 A $500?
47:51 Speaker 02 I'm just saying, the excessive purchase of.
47:56 Speaker 01 Fruit snacks.
47:57 Speaker 03 What?
47:57 Speaker 02 Of, well, just fruit snacks. There's 30 boxes of cereal in that pan. I'm just saying.
48:03 Speaker 03 Why don't you take over the grocery purchases? Drop it to 250, it shouldn't be too hard, right?
48:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, she wouldn't, it wouldn't fly. One, I don't have the patience for it, and I really.
48:14 Speaker 03 Oh.
48:14 Speaker 02 I do appreciate that she does. She's awesome at it.
48:17 Speaker 03 Uh-oh.
48:18 Speaker 02 He's awesome at it.
48:18 Speaker 03 But if it could be 250, I mean, surely that's a lot of money, right? It's a lot of gas money, so why don't you just take it?
48:22 Speaker 02 Um.
48:23 Speaker 03 She'll let you. I bet I could convince her.
48:25 Speaker 02 It, it may work. There probably won't be too much food. It would just be the staples in the house.
48:30 Speaker 03 What's wrong with that?
48:30 Speaker 02 It would make me happy.
48:31 Speaker 03 We don't need waste, so.
48:33 Speaker 02 We don't need waste.
48:33 Speaker 03 Cut the waste.
48:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:35 Speaker 03 250 a month, you'd have 250 extra per month. That's a lot of money.
48:38 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:38 Speaker 03 Sounds good. What do you think, Angela?
48:40 Speaker 01 No, because it's my hobby.
48:42 Speaker 03 Ah.
48:43 Speaker 01 And I don't want him doing it. Sometimes I do send him to the store, and I know this is like those $3 things we shouldn't be worrying about, but if I send him to the store for something, I worry about like, how much is he gonna spend? Is he gonna price check? What brand is he gonna buy? Like, what's he gonna get? So it's just easier for me to be like, I'm really busy, but I'll stop at the store and get it.
49:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:03 Speaker 01 So I do want the control over purchases.
49:05 Speaker 02 The only time I go to the grocery store would be for, say, my staples. So I'm getting chicken or oatmeal or something that's safe, because I've gotten burned. You know, the dumb buffoon husband that comes home. You spent $3 more on that, whatever it is. Why don't you know I get it at this price? Those days are over. I'm not making that mistake.
49:24 Speaker 01 And I don't know that when I've done that last.
49:27 Speaker 02 She's a great bargain shopper. Awesome, awesome. But just slow down on the excessive nature of it that we don't need. It ends up in the trash can. It's wasteful. And it's money that could go elsewhere.
49:41 Speaker 03 Where would it go?
49:42 Speaker 02 Go in my gas tank, then it would go in the Roth IRA. It would go somewhere. It would go in the savings.
49:46 Speaker 03 You guys have a lot of good answers for every question. You're just still not getting anywhere. You notice that?
49:51 Speaker 02 I totally noticed that. I've been fighting this fight for a long time.
49:56 Speaker 03 It's not a fight. You both walked into a spider web of your own making. And you could easily get out at any time, easily. But you actually enjoy being in it. You like the cobweb. You like being stuck and trapped. You like the drama. There's actually no reason for you to change, right? I mean, look, I actually offered to have Brian take over the groceries. And even Angela said, nope.
50:21 Speaker 01 I know.
50:22 Speaker 03 Cover me in cobwebs. I like it. Even right there with an offer where it would have been quite amusing and interesting to see Brian do it. And would he have realized you can't cut a family of four down to 250? He would have realized it instantly. But you wouldn't allow it.
50:38 Speaker 01 I feel like that's a role that we just felt. It's just my job to do that. Like, it's his job to take out the trash, do the dishes. And it's my job to do the laundry and do the groceries. So I just, that would be hard for me to give up.
50:50 Speaker 03 Okay, don't. Again, it's totally up to you.
50:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:54 Speaker 03 What do you want to do? Because right now, we haven't changed a single thing.
50:59 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
51:00 Speaker 03 It came out of your way. I want to help. What do you want to do?
51:06 Speaker 01 I really want to be more on the same page with our future. I never thought of us playing like these caricatures like you're saying. And it freaks me out a little, but.
51:17 Speaker 03 Why does it freak you out?
51:18 Speaker 01 Um, because I feel like I'm a really real person and I don't feel like I'm playing a character. I mean, we've been together for a really long time and we have a really good relationship. And we have fun together. Do we go out to eat? No. Do I wish we'd go more? Yes. But I think over time you just adapt. And I've just adapted to that's the type of personality he has. And like I say, it's not that I don't do things, I'm just not always doing them with him.
51:43 Speaker 03 Did you catch that? Angela just told me she wants to get on the same page. And then she immediately walked it back. Well, we have a good relationship. We have fun together. I've just adapted. When people are thinking about change, they usually experience a lot of resistance. There's a voice in the back of their head that says, you're actually fine. It's not that bad. We actually really love each other.
52:07 Ramit Sethi? Okay, you can love each other and still wanna change. What's really happening here is that that voice in your head wants you to stay exactly as you are, not change, because change is scary and uncomfortable. Staying the same is comfortable. Now, I'm not here to change a dynamic just to be provocative, but I am gonna push when I hear someone say, "I wanna change", and then they immediately start convincing themselves that they don't actually wanna change. Listen as I challenge Angela on the very reason she applied to speak with me.
52:39 Speaker 03 So, I agree that you don't have to do everything with your partner, and your partner's not gonna like to do everything that you wanna do. I understand that, that's normal. But you applied, why?
52:50 Speaker 01 Because I think we're at opposite ends of the spectrum with our finances, and I really feel like we are okay. And like I said, I don't think we need to work until we're 65 to then be able to travel.
53:03 Speaker 03 So if I told you right now, you don't have to work until you're 65, would it change anything?
53:11 Speaker 01 I would believe you.
53:13 Speaker 03 Okay, Brian?
53:15 Speaker 02 I would believe you.
53:17 Speaker 01 But?
53:18 Speaker 02 I think I need to work just for my sense of feeling I'm productive. I don't wanna be, you know, I don't wanna be sitting home watching TV. Yeah, I feel like I need to, and I might as well be an earner along with working.
53:35 Speaker 01 I'm just worried that we've worked super, super, super hard, and our numbers are what our numbers are, and that we're living too little of a life. I also kinda play the role with him where I want him to live a bigger life. And he's very happy being simple, but I want him to live that bigger life. A perfect example is the other day, Wawa had free coffee day, and he loves blueberry coffee. And throughout the day, he had three blueberry coffees, and he was so excited about this. And the next text to him literally was, "You know, you can go get a Wawa blueberry coffee any day you want", but he won't spend the $2 on himself to get a blueberry Wawa coffee.
54:18 Speaker 03 Wow.
54:18 Speaker 01 He's just making his life too simple.
54:21 Speaker 03 Wow.
54:22 Speaker 01 And that's sad for me.
54:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I don't think I deserve it.
54:28 Speaker 02 Just because I can make my own coffee at home, that's not the point. The point is if I need something, a light bulb, part, piece of weight equipment to better myself, that's all I really need. I don't need to be, live more than what I need.
54:43 Speaker 03 What does your wife need?
54:46 Speaker 02 She needs more relationship connection, which I'm probably not providing. I think the older we get, the more apart we grow. Be honest with you. I mean, that's clearly what today shows.
54:57 Speaker 03 Tell me.
54:58 Speaker 02 That's, money aside, I think until the kids, and again, I'm using kids as an excuse, that's a poor excuse, but until the kids leave, say they leave whenever in a few years, maybe that's where things come back. And it's a big maybe, but I think we've just kind of grown apart over the years, for whatever reason.
55:18 Speaker 01 And not even so much apart, more that.
55:21 Speaker 02 More distant.
55:22 Speaker 03 Can I?
55:22 Speaker 01 Yeah, for sure.
55:23 Speaker 03 First of all, that's pretty honest, so I really appreciate that. It's not easy to say. It's very courageous to say, especially as a couple in your 50s. And I'm sure you have friends and others who have approached being empty nesters. And that's a scary time. And then as you think about that with retirement, that can be really scary. One, both changing or losing their identity, that's not easy. It's scary for women in ways, it's scary for men in other ways, and for couples. You said that it's clear you've grown apart. Maybe that will change when the kids leave.
56:04 Speaker 03 Maybe, I hope it does, but you probably know couples who it's gotten worse when kids left.
56:11 Ramit Sethi? I want to jump in quickly because this is pretty heartbreaking. Angela sees how small their life has become. And she's right, it didn't happen all at once. It happened $2 at a time. This is the hidden cost of decades of frugality. First, you do it for a reason, then you do it out of habit. And sometimes you start to believe you don't deserve anything else. It goes beyond saving money on coffee. And sometimes in situations like this, you start to realize how narrow your life has become. And then Brian said something that really stopped me cold. He said, "I think the older we get, the more we grow apart."
56:53 Ramit Sethi? It's one of the most honest things that he says in this entire conversation. And I think it's one of the saddest. I see this all the time. Couples are sharing a home, sharing a bank account, but they haven't actually sat down and had a substantive conversation about money in decades. Sometimes they haven't asked each other a question in years. It's lonely. Money can keep us apart if we let it. When you don't have a rich life vision, every financial decision becomes reactive. You cut back, you track every dollar, you argue over pennies, each of you retreating to your own corner of the ring. Because there's no bigger picture guiding you.
57:38 Ramit Sethi? Sometimes you might even start to see your spouse as your financial enemy. I suspect sometimes money is a convenient distraction from deeper issues. If you're listening to this and thinking, we don't actually have a rich life vision either, then I created a free guide to help you create yours. You can do it fast and it is fun to do. Download the free guide at iwt.com/richlife. Now, listen as I challenge their perspective. If you're retiring soon and you have a financial advisor, please listen up. Do you know how much you pay your advisor? Most people that I talk to do not know. I don't have anything against advisors per se. I do have something against paying a percentage and not even knowing how much you are paying.
58:24 Ramit Sethi? You can actually get quality financial help without hidden or obfuscated fees by switching to a flat fee only advisor from our friends at Facet. Facet charges a flat membership fee for financial planning, never a percentage of your assets. And you get access to a team of CFP professionals, always a CFP, always a fiduciary, who help you create a personalized financial plan that meets you where you are. They can help with big things like investments, moving across the country, saving for kids' college, traveling in retirement, estate planning, all of it. Your financial plan should match up with your rich life vision. And Facet can help make that possible without the exorbitant fees. Late of this recording, Facet is waiving the enrollment fee for new annual members.
59:06 Ramit Sethi? And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account. If you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/ramit to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Facet is an SEC registered investment advisor. I'm not a member of Facet and have an incentive to endorse Facet as I have an ongoing fee based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. All opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar outcome.
59:33 Speaker 03 Is it money that's stopping you from connecting? Or is that a convenient excuse?
59:40 Speaker 02 That's convenient excuse. The only glaring thing is that excessive, you know, smaller purchase stuff.
59:47 Speaker 03 Can I just tell you right now? $500 a month on groceries is not excessive. Your family spends half of what another equivalent family would spend. Like you're not even close to excessive.
59:58 Speaker 02 I never, I never personally understood why people spend so much.
1:00:01 Speaker 03 That's okay. You don't have to understand.
1:00:02 Speaker 02 I don't, I'm just saying for me, and I appreciate what you do. Getting all the weekly groceries, you're the best at it. So I just settled for you being excessive in your own nature with stuff we don't need and end up throwing away.
1:00:16 Speaker 03 Can I ask it a different way?
1:00:17 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:00:18 Speaker 03 Settling is one way to put it. It's a bit of a loaded term. What if it costs $100 a month for Angela to have a hobby? Doesn't hurt anybody. She's entertained, she's productive and feels productive. And once in a while you have some extra stuff, you can donate or whatever. 100 bucks a month. What would you say to that?
1:00:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, I never thought about it that way. And that's actually what ended up happening. I took the fruit snacks and donated them to the school.
1:00:47 Speaker 03 Great.
1:00:47 Speaker 01 Kids loved them and within 10 minutes, boom, they were all gone.
1:00:50 Speaker 02 I wish you would have just bought the fruit snacks and took them right to the school.
1:00:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:00:54 Speaker 02 That would have made me happy because I'm donating.
1:00:56 Speaker 03 She could have, but she didn't. But it doesn't change anything. $100 a month changes nothing out of $188,000 a year. Literally nothing.
1:01:09 Speaker 03 But what I think is more haunting truth is that your admission that you've drifted apart. If you wanna reverse that, I think you really could. I think there's a lot of things you could. This is just one of them, but it would take totally reconceptualizing your relationship with money with each other. What do you think?
1:01:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:01:28 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think we can do it.
1:01:30 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, no doubt.
1:01:32 Speaker 03 How would you start?
1:01:33 Speaker 01 Going to happy hour.
1:01:34 Speaker 02 I guess I'm going to happy hour next week.
1:01:37 Speaker 03 Can you say that again as if you wanted to do it because it's about connecting with your wife, not losing?
1:01:41 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:01:41 Speaker 03 You know, I think the jokes have to stop. Think of yourself not as characters, but as wearing masks. The mask that you each wear is what? Describe it in detail. What is the mask that you wear when it comes to money in your relationship?
1:01:54 Speaker 02 Probably just a frown, Debbie Downer.
1:01:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, I like that. Keep going.
1:02:00 Speaker 02 You know, maybe a blank face, maybe just like no reaction, and you're talking to a wall almost.
1:02:06 Speaker 03 Yeah. Just like never getting excited. What else is under the mask?
1:02:13 Speaker 02 Hmm, temperatures cold, you know, I had to put a temperature to it. Neutral, cold, arms folded.
1:02:23 Speaker 03 Yeah, operating off an old script that some person said who doesn't even know what they're talking about. A million dollars, then it turns out you have more than 50% more, it doesn't change a thing, not particularly knowledgeable about money.
1:02:34 Speaker 02 Right.
1:02:34 Speaker 03 Very perplexing. The decider is actually the one who doesn't even know that much about money.
1:02:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:02:39 Speaker 03 Kind of weird. All of these things. Now, can you flip it? Take that mask off. What's under it?
1:02:45 Speaker 02 Um, under it? Exuberant, but reserved at the same time. It's almost like I wanna do more, but step on the brakes.
1:02:56 Speaker 03 Why?
1:02:57 Speaker 02 I don't know. I don't know if it's old ideology. It's not comfortable in my skin as far as finances go. That's why she handles it. I don't wanna know where the money's going, but yet I don't wanna buy something unless it's needed.
1:03:15 Speaker 03 It's kind of like you're, kind of like you're a backseat driver. You don't want to grocery shop, but you want her to cut it by half. You don't wanna know where the money's going, not even to the point of knowing your net worth, but you know that she's spending too much.
1:03:28 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:29 Speaker 03 That's kind of this.
1:03:30 Speaker 02 Yeah, you're right.
1:03:32 Speaker 03 It's like if you wanna have a strong point of view on the money, okay, fine, but you gotta get involved.
1:03:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:03:37 Speaker 03 Angela, any of this sound familiar?
1:03:39 Speaker 01 Sure.
1:03:40 Speaker 03 You ever tell him that, stopping a backseat driver?
1:03:42 Speaker 01 Um, not those words. But I usually say, "We have the money. We're fine. You don't have to worry about that. We can afford that."
1:03:52 Speaker 03 And does that ever work?
1:03:53 Speaker 01 Sometimes.
1:03:55 Speaker 03 Doesn't sound like it works. He's even saying no.
1:03:57 Speaker 01 Well.
1:03:58 Speaker 03 Reassuring people who don't understand money, reassuring them by pointing at numbers, never works.
1:04:06 Speaker 01 That I think is the main reason why I'm here.
1:04:08 Speaker 03 Yes.
1:04:08 Speaker 01 That is, that is the reason why I'm here.
1:04:11 Speaker 03 You wanted somebody else.
1:04:12 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm. Who's knowledgeable.
1:04:14 Speaker 03 Maybe a man, I don't know if it has to do with being a man or not, to say, "Hey, she was right. You're actually okay", hoping that me saying that reaches him, and then like happily ever after you can go out to dinner and take trips.
1:04:30 Speaker 01 Maybe.
1:04:31 Speaker 03 Maybe.
1:04:31 Speaker 01 That sounds good.
1:04:32 Speaker 03 Is that what you wanted?
1:04:33 Speaker 01 I sometimes play like a mother role with him and like just going back to that coffee. He's a very hard worker. And we've saved a lot, and I think we've lived a really good life, even though we've saved a lot. So by me just saying, "We have enough money. We can do that", and then him just always saying, "No, I never wanted to do it", I just feel sad that we're not living a bigger life. And it comes down, I think, to money for you a lot of the times.
1:04:58 Speaker 03 It sure does.
1:04:59 Speaker 01 And you're also a homebody, though, so that sort of plays.
1:05:01 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's.
1:05:02 Speaker 01 It's not always about money. It's not always.
1:05:05 Speaker 03 Are you justifying for him? Yeah.
1:05:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm always justifying.
1:05:07 Speaker 03 Why don't you stop doing that?
1:05:08 Speaker 01 Okay, I should.
1:05:10 Speaker 03 What needs to happen is exactly that, you're making the case for me.
1:05:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:15 Speaker 03 The minute either of you starts trying to advocate for yourself, you start justifying for the other, especially you, Angela. Like what, this has happened like 20 times in this conversation. So you end up spinning, spinning, and then you're back like, you just run out of breath. It's not money. You have enough money. You have 50% more than he even thought.
1:05:34 Speaker 01 Right.
1:05:34 Speaker 03 It's not money. Come on, we have to be honest with ourselves. And I think you were making some very bold points about taking off the mask. You're exuberant, but I think the word you're looking for is scared or nervous.
1:05:46 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:05:46 Speaker 03 I'm nervous that if I go out to this dinner, I might like it, then I might wanna do it all the time. I enjoyed this coffee for free, but if I do it once a week, then I might do it once a day, and that's wasteful.
1:05:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, for sure.
1:05:58 Speaker 03 But you didn't let him get there, and you didn't take the initiative to talk about it. We're talking around it, all of us. We've been talking around it for 30 years. The reason that I'm getting like a little agitated is that you have a long life ahead of you, many decades to get, but also that time goes very quickly.
1:06:16 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:06:18 Speaker 03 That's why I keep repeating to you, you can go on the way you've gone. You'll take one vacation a year, you'll play this drama in the pantry, your kids will leave, and that's it. But Angela, you wrote to me saying, I think we're living too small a life. What would it look like if you changed your spending to better align with a new, rich life?
1:06:41 Speaker 01 What would I do?
1:06:43 Speaker 03 Yeah.
1:06:44 Speaker 01 Um, I know it's gonna sound simple, but go out to eat. I would even say just once a month.
1:06:53 Speaker 03 Okay, sounds good. Where would you go?
1:06:56 Speaker 01 Somewhere on my list.
1:06:58 Speaker 03 Would you go solo? Would you go together?
1:07:00 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I would go together.
1:07:01 Speaker 03 Okay, I like that. And the RV, if and when you get an RV, would that be your primary home?
1:07:08 Speaker 01 Hmm, I don't know that we could have it as our primary home.
1:07:12 Speaker 03 You'd keep this house?
1:07:13 Speaker 01 No, definitely not.
1:07:14 Speaker 02 We've talked about, once the kids move out.
1:07:17 Speaker 03 Oh, you'd sell it?
1:07:18 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:07:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's too big of a house.
1:07:21 Speaker 03 How much will you make from it?
1:07:22 Speaker 01 About 500,000.
1:07:24 Speaker 02 Yeah, and then find a smaller.
1:07:26 Speaker 01 Rancher or something.
1:07:28 Speaker 03 You make 500,000? Wow, you're gonna be multimillionaires. Sure you're gonna be able to afford to eat out once a month as having $2 million?
1:07:35 Speaker 01 Yes, we can afford to eat out.
1:07:37 Speaker 03 Shall we run your retirement numbers?
1:07:40 Speaker 01 Yes.
1:07:40 Speaker 03 Let's assume that you retire in. Five years.
1:07:45 Speaker 01 Okay.
1:07:46 Speaker 03 Would that be a fair place to start?
1:07:47 Speaker 01 Hmm, yeah.
1:07:48 Speaker 03 If you retire in five years, you'll have 1.48 million dollars. We assume a 3% withdrawal rate, not a typical 4, 3 because you would be younger. I want to make sure you don't run out of money. This number is a little flexible, but just assume it. Social Security plus a 10K pension, you'd have about $84,500 in safe withdrawal income. If you retire in 10 years, you'll have 2.3 million dollars as it currently stands. If we assume a 4% withdrawal rate plus Social Security plus a 10K pension, you'll have $130,000 in safe withdrawal income. What do you think about that?
1:08:30 Speaker 01 That sounds better.
1:08:32 Speaker 03 Yeah, I agree.
1:08:32 Speaker 01 That sounds very doable.
1:08:35 Speaker 03 What is your natural inclination? Like, right now, hearing these two things, what is, what do you naturally feel? Brian?
1:08:43 Speaker 02 Uh, work two more years than that, get to 65.
1:08:46 Speaker 03 Get to 65, okay.
1:08:47 Speaker 02 That puts us at about 63 or so, give or take.
1:08:50 Speaker 03 So, work to 65, you'd have even more, maybe it'd be 135 or something like that. Okay, cool.
1:08:57 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:08:57 Speaker 03 That's your natural inclination. I hear that loud and clear. Angela, how about you?
1:09:01 Speaker 01 Same thing, five years wouldn't be doable.
1:09:03 Speaker 03 Mm-hmm.
1:09:03 Speaker 01 I'll do 10, not 12.
1:09:06 Speaker 03 Okay, so there's a little bit of disagreement here and there. Maybe one of you retires a couple of years early, okay?
1:09:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's fine.
1:09:11 Speaker 03 So, I like this. What we're doing now is we're going from the clouds to the street. We're like grounding.
1:09:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:18 Speaker 03 It's not just about feelings, these abstract feelings and 28-year-old arguments. It's like, no, let's look at some numbers.
1:09:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:25 Speaker 03 Let's start to get real, like, time is ticking. I will tell you that my natural inclination would be, first off, I need to run the numbers carefully. Because if we sell the house and we don't have a car payment and we're not paying for kids to eat, but we're also eating out more and traveling more, like, how much do we actually need?
1:09:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:45 Speaker 03 Because I'm not trying to make my biggest life decision based on vibes. I need actual numbers. So, that's the first thing I'll do. The second thing my natural inclination is, is how do we get there faster?
1:09:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:09:58 Speaker 03 The thing is, you actually could get there faster. It might mean incomes. You could take some of your expenses, which are, I don't think, properly categorized. An extra 500 bucks a month could be found and put it towards investments. And that could substantially change the outcome.
1:10:19 Speaker 03 Do you see that when we're talking at this level, suddenly fruit roll ups is not the issue? That's actually like so small and insignificant. Maybe you need to buy less fruit roll ups. Maybe, but telling Angela, stop buying fruit rolls, so wasteful, won't do it. But actually saying like, hey, if we're able to cut our XYZ costs by $600 a month and direct it to investments, we can retire one year earlier.
1:10:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:44 Speaker 03 That's powerful. Does that reach you?
1:10:46 Speaker 01 That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely.
1:10:48 Speaker 03 When you play small for too long, that's all you know.
1:10:53 Speaker 03 Part of the reason I want to talk to you is to zoom out. Be like, no, these are big, big life decisions.
1:10:58 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:10:58 Speaker 02 Yeah, I hear you. I agree.
1:11:01 Speaker 03 The question I would be asking is how do we make the next 10 years magical? Not wait. I'll never wait 10 years.
1:11:10 Speaker 01 I agree.
1:11:11 Speaker 03 I won't even wait two years. How do we make the next 10 years magical? What's the answer to that?
1:11:16 Speaker 01 Travel now. Go out to dinner more, make moments count. And it doesn't always have to include money.
1:11:25 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think money aside, it's got to be us first. You know, money second. Because this is the foundation. This is why we're together for 28 years plus. You know, this has got to work first before the money. That's comes kind of insignificant. You know, it's just numbers.
1:11:47 Speaker 03 So how do you do it?
1:11:48 Speaker 02 I think I need to, what's the word?
1:11:53 Speaker 01 Say yes?
1:11:55 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, not give in, but compromise. And that's what I need to do. I think I need to be a better husband and compromise. And.
1:12:06 Speaker 02 You know, kind of rebuild the foundation of this relationship.
1:12:11 Speaker 03 Yeah. How would you do that?
1:12:14 Speaker 02 Be together more often, spend more quality time.
1:12:18 Speaker 03 Well, I think you spend a lot of time together, right? You go on hikes, you're at home, you see each other.
1:12:22 Speaker 02 Probably not enough. I mean, because now we're we're kind of singular. You know, we're our own separate islands after work for the most part, unless we have a function or a date or something to do together. So we have to build more time or reserve more time to do more together things.
1:12:42 Speaker 03 Should we just do it right now? Because I feel like there's a lot of talk.
1:12:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:46 Speaker 03 We're here. Break it down for me. You know, Sunday through Saturday, when do you want to spend more time together? And what is the time? Let's go one by one. Go ahead. Pick a day.
1:12:57 Speaker 02 Uh, pick a day? Wednesday.
1:13:01 Speaker 03 What do you want to do on Wednesday?
1:13:02 Speaker 02 Uh, Wednesday is going to be our designated take the dogs to local park that doesn't have any ticks.
1:13:10 Speaker 03 What's your reaction?
1:13:11 Speaker 01 I think that sounds great. I love walking and the dogs would enjoy going for a walk.
1:13:18 Speaker 03 Awesome. Okay, Angela, your turn.
1:13:21 Speaker 01 How about if we go back to the brewery on Tuesday night? Or try the melting pot? Let's just try it. We never did fondue.
1:13:29 Speaker 02 Yes, dear.
1:13:30 Speaker 01 Would you like to do that?
1:13:31 Speaker 02 Is that once a week?
1:13:33 Speaker 01 Well, we'll try it this week and see how we feel about it.
1:13:36 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:13:38 Speaker 03 Cool. How do you feel about that?
1:13:40 Speaker 02 Feel great.
1:13:41 Speaker 03 Cool. You know what? I really like that answer. I think sometimes, sometimes we just have to say yes, and our feelings change later. It's like, yes.
1:13:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:13:51 Speaker 03 In fact, like, I'll tell you my philosophy. I think it is so rare for your partner to be genuinely excited by something, especially the later on you are in life. You know, there's like, there's a lot of just dreariness, you know, like
1:14:06 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:14:06 Speaker 03 life and kids and work.
1:14:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah.
1:14:09 Speaker 03 It's difficult. Honestly, what a gift that your partner comes to you and they're excited. Could be the blueberry coffee.
1:14:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:14:15 Speaker 03 Could be going to the melting pot.
1:14:17 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
1:14:18 Speaker 03 My general reaction is yes. Unless I'm like philosophically opposed to it or some crazy thing.
1:14:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:14:27 Speaker 03 I'm just like, oh, my God, it is so rare to see your partner get excited and lit up.
1:14:32 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:14:32 Speaker 03 I want to reward that. I want to do it.
1:14:34 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
1:14:34 Speaker 03 And I want to see that kind of energy in my relationship. Right? And then she instinctively does the same for me.
1:14:41 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:14:42 Speaker 03 That's connected. So awesome. I love that. Okay. Brian, what would it take for you to feel safe enough to retire?
1:14:51 Speaker 02 Well, I, uh, I want her to work or stop working whenever she feels though she is ready. I mean, I can continue to work forever. If that's what it came down to, but based on the numbers, I'm very encouraged that maybe I don't have to work till I'm 70. So today I feel a bit relieved, I think, a little bit more comforted that I have a little bit of protection.
1:15:22 Speaker 03 The two of you have so many different options. You two could retire at different times. That's common, but I don't think any of it happens if you're not actually connected, starting right now.
1:15:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:15:38 Speaker 03 Like you already mentioned, Brian, you've drifted apart.
1:15:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:15:40 Speaker 03 And you continue to drift apart as kids leave.
1:15:42 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
1:15:43 Speaker 03 So unless that comes first.
1:15:45 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:15:45 Speaker 03 And that involves spending time together, which we just mapped out.
1:15:48 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:15:48 Speaker 03 It's a great first drop. It also means spending money meaningfully.
1:15:53 Speaker 02 I agree.
1:15:54 Speaker 03 Right? And I think actually getting to where Brian is suggesting something. Literally, it could be we're going to Wawa and we're going to get two blueberry coffees.
1:16:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:16:04 Speaker 03 It literally could be that. It actually does not matter what it is.
1:16:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:16:08 Speaker 02 You're right.
1:16:09 Speaker 03 You would be excited, right?
1:16:10 Speaker 01 I would be, yes.
1:16:10 Speaker 03 I'm in.
1:16:11 Speaker 01 Yes, absolutely.
1:16:12 Speaker 03 So getting those adventurous feelings back and whether it's joining a group together or trying some new stuff, like That bring way closer.
1:16:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:16:22 Speaker 03 And if it costs 10 bucks or 50 bucks, you will have millions.
1:16:27 Speaker 01 Right. Yeah.
1:16:28 Speaker 03 Okay.
1:16:28 Speaker 01 That feels good.
1:16:29 Speaker 02 All right.
1:16:30 Speaker 03 What surprised you most during our conversation? Angela?
1:16:34 Speaker 01 I have a little anxiety about like you saying us wearing masks and being characters because I feel like we're very real with each other. So that does concern me. I have anxiety about that.
1:16:45 Speaker 03 Okay. Concern, anxiety, these are all things that I think are good to explore.
1:16:51 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
1:16:51 Speaker 03 Not hide away, run towards those, don't run away. Brian, what surprised you about our conversation?
1:16:56 Speaker 02 Um, just kind of peeling the layers away and kind of getting down to what's significant and what is insignificant. And we've determined that my concerns are they're there, just, just in the grand scheme of things, when we zoom globally, we see its insignificance. That all my angst,
1:17:22 Speaker 02 anger, rage, it's all for nothing. When it comes down to it. Because 25, 50 years from now, whatever, it'll be just like, why did you waste that time? The mental anguish on that. Just giving her more pain doesn't get us anywhere. I think you need to peel back some of these layers and get things a little closer or in touch with how you really feel and not just put the wall back up and just lash out, which is the easiest thing. You know, to go to.
1:17:57 Speaker 03 Yeah. How do you feel now versus when we first sat down to talk?
1:18:01 Speaker 02 I feel a sense of relief. All right, we got this. We're kind of on the right path. Let's shore things up. Let's get them tighter. And then things will just fall into place.
1:18:12 Speaker 03 How about you, Angela?
1:18:13 Speaker 01 What I'm happiest about is I think when I approach Brian with ideas that I'll have more yeses now.
1:18:20 Speaker 03 Nice.
1:18:20 Speaker 01 Yeah. So I think that's a really big thing. It's part of us living too little of a life. But yeah, I, I see things going definitely in a positive way.
1:18:28 Speaker 03 I'd like to give a little bit of homework if I could.
1:18:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:18:31 Speaker 03 So you suggested Angela, the melting pot for, I think, next week.
1:18:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:18:37 Speaker 03 Brian, I'd like for you to plan a date night within two weeks.
1:18:41 Speaker 02 Okay.
1:18:41 Speaker 03 So it's.
1:18:44 Speaker 03 You two decide within two weeks, but Brian, it's up to you. It's gonna involve a little bit of money.
1:18:48 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
1:18:49 Speaker 03 And that's it. Keep it, keep it as simple as that and as broad as that. You do whatever you want, whatever is meaningful for the two of you. But bring it up. Same way that Angela does. She comes to you, she's got a plan. Same thing.
1:19:02 Ramit Sethi? Okay.
1:19:02 Speaker 03 What I want to do is balance a little bit more of these conversations about money, about life. I know Angela, you've been doing a lot of, you know, like tracking.
1:19:14 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:19:14 Speaker 03 And my hope is that you can zoom out and focus on the numbers that are meaningful.
1:19:20 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:19:20 Speaker 03 I talk a lot about getting into three dollar questions versus the thirty thousand.
1:19:24 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
1:19:25 Speaker 03 These thirty thousand dollars actually matter a lot, especially because you want to retire earlier and or have the option to.
1:19:31 Speaker 01 Right.
1:19:32 Speaker 03 So I'd like for you to get tighter with your numbers. That means going through the book together. I Will Teach You To Be Rich book and the Money For Couples book. Talking about that, you can have a book club. One of you can run one book, the other can run the other. I'd like for you to really absorb what happened today. There's a lot of things, conversations about roles and masks and going together and going apart. It's pretty deep. I want that North Star. What is our rich life? Do we have the ability to retire? Is one of us retiring? Are we going part-time? Are we doing the RV? Okay, let's start there, then we can figure out how to make the money work. In order to do that, you gotta start with what you felt today. Okay?
1:20:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:20:12 Speaker 03 All right. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate it.
1:20:14 Ramit Sethi? Thank you, Ramit.
1:20:15 Speaker 03 You know, Angela and Brian didn't come here for tips on grocery budgeting. They came here because their life feels too small. Ironically, they have the money. If they wanted to retire in five, six, seven years, they probably could. They could pay less on their mortgage, they could redirect that money to investments, they could find an extra five hundred bucks and accelerate their timeline. That's just math. But our conversation has not been about math. A lot of us hide behind complicated math because it's easier to say, I don't understand how a solo 401K works, than admitting you and your partner might not actually share the same rich life vision. Or worse, you're afraid to even ask what theirs is.
1:20:56 Speaker 03 And yet, until you create a shared vision, a shared goal, a shared why, you're gonna keep repeating the same old arguments and you're gonna keep up the same performance of the sitcom dynamic, which honestly is very difficult to change after thirty years of marriage.
1:21:10 Ramit Sethi? And if you don't change year by year by year, you drift a little bit further apart. That's the real cost here. I don't care about granola bars. I care about time and intimacy. If they both decide to take a totally fresh look at their relationship with money and with each other, I actually think they could make dramatic changes in just a few months. It'll be hard, really hard, but I think it's worth it. Angela and Brian, I want to thank you for being so open, for coming on, having this vulnerable conversation, and being willing to stick with it for the entire time that we spoke. You've already proven that you can have these difficult conversations. Now my encouragement to you is that it is time
1:21:51 Ramit Sethi? to build something better for the next chapter of your life together. Now, let's check out their followers.
1:21:59 Speaker 02 My biggest surprise that a retirement projection is estimated close to 1.5 million. This number provides some comfort and relief as we prepare for retirement years from now. The lesson I learned was that ultimately our relationship stability is far more important than our financial stability. Another takeaway is the importance of open communication and shared financial goals. In addition to investing our money, we need to invest into time spent with each other. Don't sweat over the small stuff like fruit snacks. Although this conversation was difficult for me, it taught me to emphasize personal responsibility, mindset shifts, and the pursuit of a rich life beyond wealth. Specific changes I made thus far, I'm in the process of moving both Roth IRAs over to Vanguard. I am striving to be more respectful and kind to my wife, to be a better husband,
1:22:44 Speaker 02 by reducing negativity and open to sharing more life experiences and creating lasting memories. Much gratitude, Ramit. Thank you.
1:22:52 Speaker 04 Our biggest surprise by far was that 72% of our expenses, our fixed expenses, that's crazy to me. I thought we were really doing good with fixed, but that's just a crazy number. The other surprise was the way our relationship was portrayed. I know it was just a snapshot of two hours, but I did have a lot of anxiety about it, but then I realized that that was not really us. We spend a lot of meaningful- Time together, maybe it's just not going out to eat and maybe that is actually not important. My takeaway is I can't retire in five years, maybe I don't have to wait 10 years. My other takeaway was maybe it's not about the money. We spend money on things that are meaningful to us.
1:23:36 Speaker 04 Um, but maybe we're just simple people that just don't spend a lot of money. I think we're very conscious on the money that we spend and deliberate about it. So it's not that we're cheap. It's just if I don't want to spend money on something, I'm not going to spend money on it. I am setting up a meeting with my school to see if my pension, if I'm being charged for that, if I am, I'm going to change that. So I'm no longer charged. And I decided to bump my $700 up to $1,000 per pay period. So where am I getting that extra $600? I'm picking up extra shifts at the amusement park, which is my bonus job because I actually enjoy that. And if I can work and I enjoy it and make the little bit of money, why not? The only other thing that we're considering is not paying extra on our mortgage
1:24:20 Speaker 04 and instead just putting that into our emergency fund so we can build that.
1:24:25 Ramit Sethi? I received this email from Angela and Brian. We're feeling stuck. We've been intentional, but it's hard to tell if we've done enough or what comes next. At one point, we thought we wanted to retire in five years. Now we realize we enjoy our work. We can take more vacations without giving it all up, but we still don't know what the next step should be. We feel like we've done our homework. Now we're just waiting for our next assignment. First of all, I really appreciate the follow up. I want to gently push back. I loved our conversation and I am here to be your guide. But nobody can design your rich life but you. Nobody can overcome your financial challenges but you.
1:25:10 Ramit Sethi? And nobody can live your rich life but you. I think that right now you are looking at this as an assignment, as if you are waiting for somebody to tell you what the next step is. But the entire point, the podcast, in fact, the entire point of 21 years of my work is that your rich life is yours. I don't think you need help with the difference between a traditional and a Roth IRA. If so, you can get it in my book. I think you need to make decisions about what comes next. You, both of you, together. And when you do that, you're going to suddenly discover the difference in going passive,
1:25:55 Ramit Sethi? which is so common for so many of us, to actively designing the kind of life you want. Thank you again. Please keep me updated and I wish you both the best.
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