Why You Feel Helpless… and How to Break the Loop - Joe Hudson (4K)

Joe Hudson is a coach, entrepreneur and a podcast host. Why do we struggle to feel our emotions fully? A rich life requires openness, but that openness comes with the risk of pain. So how do we embrace the full spectrum of human emotion, even when it leaves us vulnerable to being hurt? Expect to learn why it’s hard to live in the real world with an open heart, why so many people struggle to make good decisions and how to make better ones, how to break the loops of rumination, how to develop a good relationship with your intuition, what the largest misconceptions about overwhelm is, why people struggle to let go of imposter syndrome and how to break free from it, and much more… - 0:00 Is Living With an Open Heart Too Difficult? 11:12 How Does Heartbreak Change Us? 19:07 Why Does Pain Make Us Resist? 26:10 Learning to Accept Unconditional Love 36:04 Are You Angry or Just Sad? 40:02 What Healthy Boundaries Really Look Like 46:03 Why Do We Suffer in Silence? 52:53 Aligning Your Heart and Actions 01:03:02 How to Build Real Self-Confidence 01:10:45 Why You Should Trust Your Emotions 01:26:52 How Joe Has Switched Up His Content 01:32:19 Does Loving Your Work Lead to Success? 01:37:11 What All Arguments Really Come Down To 01:44:57 Efficiency vs Awareness: What Matters More? 01:50:34 What’s Next for Joe? - Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom New pricing since recording: Function is now just $365, plus get $25 off at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom - Learn more about Joe's work: Free self-assessment: http://assessment.artofaccomplishment.com Art of Accomplishment: http://artofaccomplishment.com - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Joe Hudson, welcome to the show.

• 0:02Joe Hudson?

  Thanks, Chris. Good to see you, man.

• 0:04Chris Williamson?

  Feels different to speak to you now.

• 0:06Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, I bet.

• 0:08Chris Williamson?

  It feels different.

• 0:11Chris Williamson?

  The audience will know that I spent a long week with you at your intensive retreat.

• 0:20Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 0:21Chris Williamson?

  So yeah, to now sit down back in my domain after having spent a week desperately trying to survive in yours feels feels somewhat different.

• 0:31Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, it was great to have you there.

• 0:35Chris Williamson?

  It was a very strange, very meaningful experience, especially given that it's completely sober. You know, there's a lot of talk of how important it is to, how popular it is at least, to do the psychedelic trip down to Costa Rica or the ayahuasca DMT thing. You can get pretty far without having to add anything in except for a morning coffee if you've got the right container and practices.

• 1:03Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, the, I don't know if you've ever seen the data on the work, but we change negative self-talk by a standard deviation across all the participants and, and all, and the neuroses drops by a little less than a standard deviation. So yeah, cool stuff can happen.

• 1:19Chris Williamson?

  Harvard, who's doing the study?

• 1:21Joe Hudson?

  There's a researcher who worked at Harvard, she no longer does. And then we had somebody at Columbia who's doing it and we just now have another person doing another research project on us, so.

• 1:32Chris Williamson?

  It doesn't surprise me.

• 1:33Joe Hudson?

  Quantum physics from Oxford. This is the new, new person who's at least talking to us about, we haven't figured out what we're doing yet.

• 1:41Chris Williamson?

  One of the questions that came up after we spent a week together was, is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart?

• 1:50Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:51Chris Williamson?

  It was one of the first questions that I thought of.

• 1:53Joe Hudson?

  It's hard not to, is my experience.

• 1:58Joe Hudson?

  I don't know anything that,

• 2:02Joe Hudson?

  I don't know anything that feels better with a closed heart.

• 2:10Joe Hudson?

  So we have this thing that our brain does that tells us that, oh, I'm gonna get hurt or I'm gonna get in trouble, or I'm gonna get taken advantage of if I close my heart, or if I don't close my heart, if I don't protect myself. And, but there's not a tremendous amount of evidence for that. Like Gandhi didn't get taken advantage of, or Martin Luther King didn't get taken advantage of. A really open-hearted mother doesn't particularly get taken advantage of. Some might, some might not, but they're not really correlated. And so my experience is that if you close your heart down, it hurts. It's just painful. And we talk about it a lot in our society is like, if you don't forgive, then you're

• 2:52Joe Hudson?

  punishing yourself. That would be like the typical way to say it. But my experience is just anytime that my heart starts closing down, it hurts.

• 3:02Joe Hudson?

  Why do we do it?

• 3:04Joe Hudson?

  We're scared of love? I mean, that's one of the things that I think you must have noticed in the, I mean, Groundbreakers, is that on some level, you could say almost everybody there was, had been entrained in love in some way that was not useful. And so now they're scared of it. So like, love came with guilt, and therefore, love isn't safe, or love came with getting smothered, or love came with criticism, or love Obligation. Obligation. And therefore, love is scary, not for what, but at the same time, we definitely want love. We're born wanting love. Like little kids are like, give me attention, give me love. That's what they want. And so we have this desire for it, but then when we get it, it comes with this something that's toxic or not good, or, and

• 3:49Joe Hudson?

  then we're, oh, shoot, we're scared of love. And so, and to some degree, that's all of it. It's like, like I can see almost all humans kind of doing this with love. You know, the most pronounced one is jealousy, you know, like if I'm in a relationship and a person with me is, and I'm jealous. On one level, I'm like, I want you, I want you, I want you. And on one level, I'm like, I'm gonna like criticize you and and make you feel wrong and bad and I'm pushing you away. And this is what I see almost everybody's doing with love in their life, with themselves as well. I mean, even in loving themselves, they're doing that.

• 4:29Chris Williamson?

  So we have that pattern. I think, is it hard to live in the real world with an open heart? It came to me as a question because it was pretty easy to do it within the container of this very gentle, very understanding, very.

• 4:45Joe Hudson?

  Oh, but check it out. You just said it's like gentle and understanding, but right before that you said intense, like hardcore, like it like you're you're the way you said it wasn't like everyone wasn't gonna be like, yeah, I want to go do that. That sounds like fun. It was like, no, that shit's intense. So how do you how do you put those two things together?

• 5:04Chris Williamson?

  Well, the dauntingness, I think, of fully being seen is to do with it being alien. It's to do with it being unfamiliar.

• 5:14Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 5:17Chris Williamson?

  It's to do with a level of transparency and openness that isn't, you're not used to. And it's.

• 5:28Chris Williamson?

  It must be like being a, for want of a better example, like a mistreated puppy or something. And this puppy has been taught that every time somebody raises a hand at it, it should cower away because it's gonna get hit. But this time the hand gets raised and it gets a pat on the head and it needs to learn over time, it cowers less and less and less. And then it actually learns to love the hand that comes down toward it.

• 5:48Joe Hudson?

  Yes, that's exactly what it is. That's so cool.

• 5:51Chris Williamson?

  Depatterning. That response takes time. So that's the daunting side, the daunting and intense side. The reason that I said the real world was there was a story. The first day that we came out, me and one of the other guys went for a massage. She said bodywork would be a really good idea. This beautiful, peaceful, very calm reception waiting area of the Thai massage parlor in a sleepy village in Sonoma County was too intense that we had to leave and go outside. Like this is, and you know, there's like a little USB plugged in waterfall and plink plonk music playing in the background. Like we, we're gonna, we're gonna go stand in the courtyard. Cause we're like, I kind of, I don't know what the fuck's going. What did you call it? Uh, not spirit sick, not dope sick, like something hangover, spirit hangover?

• 6:35Joe Hudson?

  Oh, uh, vulnerability hangover?

• 6:38Chris Williamson?

  Maybe.

• 6:38Joe Hudson?

  I use that word a lot.

• 6:39Chris Williamson?

  I feel it was something else sick as well. Anyway, um, we go outside. What it made me realize is that

• 6:48Chris Williamson?

  there's one level of difficulty, which is, uh, within a safe container, learning that the hand is going to come and pat you, not, not beat you.

• 6:55Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 6:56Chris Williamson?

  The next one is now going out into a world filled with hands.

• 7:00Joe Hudson?

  Yes.

• 7:02Chris Williamson?

  And those are two different skills. Uh, or it's the, the same skill, but a very different kind of skill set. Does this make sense?

• 7:08Joe Hudson?

  That totally makes sense to me.

• 7:09Chris Williamson?

  Okay, dig into that.

• 7:11Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, so there's so much there.

• 7:15Joe Hudson?

  So if I look at like a pattern that I'm holding in my life, I have three ways that I hold that pattern in my life. One of the ways is that I attract it. So let's say I, um, I have a pattern of feeling highly criticized. One of the ways that I'm going to attract it is I'm going to be attracted to and want critical women in my life or critical bosses in my life or, so I'm, I'm going to be, I'm just going to notice, wow, all my girlfriends criticize me all the time, just like my mom did or some version of, but I'm attracted to it. One way is that I manipulate people into doing it. Right? So some way in which somebody's not criticizing me, I am going to like fish for the criticism

• 7:58Joe Hudson?

  or I'm going to do something that I know is going to make them criticize me or I'm going to be a little needy about something that's going to make them push me away and criticize it, you know? And then the last one is I'm going to prove somebody's criticizing me even when I'm not being criticized. Right? So. You might say, oh, hey, you're not parked straight because you don't, but for me, that means I parked all fucked up and you criticized.

• 8:25Chris Williamson?

  I've never been a good parker.

• 8:27Joe Hudson?

  Exactly. Like, I'm gonna make meaning out of that. I call that mapping. So you're manipulating people to do it. You're attracting it. And you are proving it because you're looking at the cases where it's true. You're not looking at the cases that aren't true. And so we go out into the world and so you go into for a week long with us and all of a sudden, the patterns don't work anymore. And then you go out into the world and but you're used to doing a particular thing in the world, which is mapping this pattern. And so all of a sudden, you're like, wait, how do I, how do I interact with the world? And so we've had people come out, like you said, like, I have a hard time sitting in this massage parlor.

• 9:05Joe Hudson?

  We've had people come out and literally call us from a grocery store and say, I don't, I don't know what to buy anymore.

• 9:13Chris Williamson?

  Whole Foods was the tip of the spear of difficulty for people.

• 9:18Joe Hudson?

  Exactly. And so, so it's just like, oh, I'm not in my pattern. So how do I operate anymore?

• 9:23Chris Williamson?

  It's a little bit like shaking the Etch A Sketch, I think.

• 9:26Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 9:26Chris Williamson?

  And it's sort of, it's more blank. One of the other things.

• 9:30Joe Hudson?

  I think I noticed that, like, I'm thinking about your audience for a minute and I'm thinking, like, they might have no idea what we're talking about because there's no, there's not a lot of experience of, oh, I, I saw the world one way and a week later, I see the world a different way. It's like, you have to assume that to understand the conversation that we're having, that all of a sudden, I thought that I had to be protected, but I realized that life is a lot better if I'm not protected. Now I'm have to learn how to do that in the real world.

• 9:58Chris Williamson?

  That's it. That's it. That's it. Right there. And yeah, I, it's so funny when you hear people talk about a religious experience or a transformational experience or a near death experience or, you know, whatever it is that they've done. And from the outside, because you don't have that frame of reference, it's confusing. It's easy to mock. He was like, what the fuck is this person talking about? I have no frame or context or whatever. It's a bit of me. That because I'm inside of that, I'm taking for granted. I'm like, I might just sound so mental. And this is relatively mild, I think, in the world of like, I saw a thing and this thing, whatever. It's like, I realized that I didn't need to be as stiff and spiky

• 10:43Chris Williamson?

  as I used to, and that the sensitivity that is always inside of me is something that I don't need to necessarily hide and actually might make my world and other people's worlds a better place. And the very thing I wanted, which was for people to like me, might occur more, the more that I show that, the less. So I wanted to show you this.

• 11:03Joe Hudson?

  So I just, I like total tingles in my whole body because I'm like, that's, that's why I love my work is to hear that exact thing. So thanks for sharing that.

• 11:12Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so I'm a, I have this episode that I recorded in New York a couple of weeks ago, called John Bellion. He's one of the most legendary producers of our era. He's done billions of streams, Justin Bieber, Ed Sheeran. He also is a solo artist himself.

• 11:29Joe Hudson?

  Okay.

• 11:30Chris Williamson?

  He released an album called Father Figure. It's about him becoming a dad. It's about his reflections on his relationship with his dad, who was a super father, this sort of very strange, almost role model. You know, like people talk about, I have a super successful father and I need to be as powerful as him. This was different. This was, I had a really amazing dad and I have to live up to being like as attuned and supportive and this sort of other type of intimidation, I suppose. And I was in the shower this morning. I played this song in the car yesterday, but I didn't listen to the lyrics. And it's a song that just passed me by when I was doing my prep for the episode. And I knew I wanted to talk about living with an open heart. And in this song, so I'm in the shower this morning, I cried at this, I cried at this song every single time I've heard it. So we'll see if

• 12:14Chris Williamson?

  it happens again now. But I wanted you to, I'm going to spin the lyrics around and we'll play the song. It's also going to get popped on YouTube, but I don't give a fuck because it's sufficiently important that I think it, it matters. So.

• 12:33Speaker 02

  I'm scared to meet you, cause then I might know you.

• 12:40Speaker 02

  And then, once I know you, I might fall in love.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  And once I'm in love, then my heart is wide open.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  For you to walk in, drop a bomb, blow it up.

• 13:00Speaker 02

  So why love anything, anything, anything at all?

• 13:08Speaker 02

  Why love anything at all?

• 13:15Speaker 02

  If the higher I fly, is the further I fall.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Then why love anything at all?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  Stressed and strung out about things that could happen.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  And I could move mountains with the worry I've done.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  So I called my father and he started laughing.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  So you think it's bad now until you have a son.

• 13:56Joe Hudson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  So why love anything, anything, anything at all?

• 14:05Speaker 02

  Why love anything at all?

• 14:12Speaker 02

  If the higher I fly, is the further I fall.

• 14:19Speaker 02

  Then why love anything at all?

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Why love?

• 14:36Chris Williamson?

  Um, gimme your thoughts on that.

• 14:42Joe Hudson?

  Well, yeah, my thoughts are that somehow or another, the the heartbreak is bad.

• 14:49Joe Hudson?

  Like that's the assumption in the song that like somehow the heartbreak is bad, but like heartbreak is something I look forward to.

• 14:57Chris Williamson?

  It's a bold claim.

• 15:02Joe Hudson?

  It is until you realize that every time your heart breaks open, it increases your capacity to love.

• 15:11Chris Williamson?

  Do people not get their hearts broken so badly that they close off?

• 15:15Chris Williamson?

  Is that not what trauma is?

• 15:16Joe Hudson?

  People get their hearts broken so badly that they,

• 15:23Joe Hudson?

  yes, that happens, but I think that's more because they're avoiding the pain, not because their heart's broken.

• 15:29Joe Hudson?

  Like we're wired. There's like some pretty good studies about this. Like we're, we're wired to find awakening, for lack of a better word, enlightenment or peace through going into the pain. So if you look at what we did through ground in our, in the week long, we're constantly going into the thing that we think that we're scared of. That is the pain, the thing that we've been avoiding. And the more you go into it, the better you feel, the, the, the more open you are, the, the less weight you're carrying around with you, the less worry you have, the less anxiety, the less anger. That's what we're wired for. And if you look at the studies on people who go into their depression

• 16:13Joe Hudson?

  instead of avoiding it and, and, and make through, they're far less likely to ever get depressed again.

• 16:21Joe Hudson?

  And so we're just, we're designed for that. Like, that's how we, that's how human beings operate. If you go into the pain, it's the same as if you're working out. Like, like to me, the question is like, why work out? Why work out? Why work out at all? It hurts when I work out. Why work out at all? Like, that's what I'm hearing when I see that thing. It makes no sense. Once you realize that, that, that pain is the like most direct path to your freedom, when it's accepted and loved. When it's avoided, it's absolute hell. When it's resisted, it's absolute hell. So I get it. Like, I get why people are like, I don't want to feel that. And then they can avoid it. And then it just sits in the background and rips you apart.

• 17:07Joe Hudson?

  So that that's how I think about it. And it's a, by the way, for that, that man, it's the same thing for parenting. Like the, the thing about parenting that's really cool for me is like, it's a, like a deep tissue massage. Parenting is like a deep tissue massage. If you resist, you're fucked.

• 17:25Joe Hudson?

  Like it teaches you, you do not have control. The thing that you think you are is not what you are. Your, your sense of identity is going to be crushed. That's like, that's the good news about parenting. That's, that's the thing. That's the thing I'm so incredibly grateful for. As my kids now are 16 and 20, I'm just like, oh, man, I, I got, I got crushed.

• 17:50Joe Hudson?

  That's the amazing thing. All, all that stuff that I thought I was, that was, that was actually just this cause of pain, long-term pain, just got annihilated so that I could find out what I truly am. The thing that couldn't be annihilated.

• 18:05Chris Williamson?

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• 18:47Chris Williamson?

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• 19:06Chris Williamson?

  A check out. The word resistance sort of coming up for me, like that the pain is in the resistance of that, the fleeing of it. You said somebody that goes into their depression as opposed to away from it.

• 19:16Joe Hudson?

  Yes.

• 19:17Chris Williamson?

  Can you talk about the distinction between the two approaches that they're going into versus they're going away from, or the resisting versus the leading to?

• 19:24Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So like when I, like I hit my depression, I think it was like in around 35 or something like that. And the way I think about depression is on the intellectual level, it's just extreme negative self-talk. And on an emotional level, it's repression of anger and sadness typically, a lot of it anger. And then there's a lack of connection that's happening and like with interpersonal connection that happens and you don't feel that depth of connection that occurs. And on a nervous system level, you're just constantly under attack. And so eventually your adrenal glands give up and the attack is coming from within. So when that happens for a prolonged period of time, that's the way I see depression.

• 20:08Joe Hudson?

  So then you're there and, and when you're there, you have some symptoms and the symptoms are this is never going to go away. I'm horrible. Like there's just all this doom and gloom and why even try? And life has no meaning. And all that's the symptoms of the depression. And so what some people do is they're like, how do I avoid myself? And the other way to do it is to say, well, what's actually really going on here? Who am I really? What's, what's, what I'm, what, what really makes me depressed? What's really, like, what, what are those thoughts really? Or do they, are they true? Where do they come from? What do they sound like? It's like a deep wondering, a curiosity. And so

• 20:50Joe Hudson?

  to some degree, that depression is, there's this great saying that I've heard recently, which is, um, the best gift we can give to our kids is. Making them safe to be, making them feel like they'd safe to be themselves. The depression is all the places you weren't safe to be yourself that you are currently judging. So what is it to lean in and understand those things? Those things that you never got to express, that you never got to explore, that you never got to go into, that wasn't safe to be, those emotions, those thoughts. And then see what it's like to actually reparent yourself in that way. That's what's going, that's what I mean by going into it.

• 21:31Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Would you say to somebody who thinks, okay, I believe you. I, I am convinced that this is the route to go into. I'm sick of abandoning myself.

• 21:41Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Chris Williamson?

  But I'm scared.

• 21:44Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 21:45Chris Williamson?

  That fear, which I think is much of what we were dealing with.

• 21:49Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 21:49Chris Williamson?

  In the week that we spent together, which is you're scared of doing this thing. And you will find out that if you do it on the other side of it is nothing to fear, nothing.

• 21:57Joe Hudson?

  Nothing.

• 21:57Chris Williamson?

  Maybe bliss.

• 21:58Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 21:58Chris Williamson?

  Maybe no connection, maybe wonder, or maybe actually just, oh, there was nothing there.

• 22:03Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 22:05Chris Williamson?

  But even now, having had the week intense, 12 hours a day, da, da, da, da. Like, it's not as if that lesson has been permanently locked into my brain.

• 22:16Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Chris Williamson?

  That fear is continuing every single time to come up. I'm like, fuck, I'm going to play this song and it's going to make me tear up. And I'm like, what are people going to say on the internet? I'm going to look silly and it's going to be blah, blah, and like.

• 22:26Joe Hudson?

  Right. But you're doing it.

• 22:28Chris Williamson?

  That fear. What would you say to somebody who is currently paralyzed by, by that fear of?

• 22:35Joe Hudson?

  I say, of course you're scared. It's okay.

• 22:42Joe Hudson?

  I'm right here with you.

• 22:46Joe Hudson?

  The thing about somebody who's depressed in that way is they're constantly being told that they're not okay the way they are. You know, their friends are coming to them and saying, you should do this and this and this. And you should, you should go and now, now you could listen to what I'm saying. Say, god damn it, why don't I just stop avoiding myself? I'm fucking up like. And, but what's not happening is no one's just saying you're cool the way you are. I got you like, this is it. I don't need you to be different. There's a really cool story and I think I shared it at the retreat, but I can't, I can't remember. But um, there is this. There's this Quaker guy who was had this really strong sense of community, went into a depression and everybody came over to his house because he had this

• 23:30Joe Hudson?

  community and they were just telling him what he should do to get out of the depression. And none of it helped because he said they were just agreeing with the voice in my head that that there's something wrong with me. But one guy came in every Tuesday at noon and washed his feet.

• 23:47Joe Hudson?

  And he was just giving this expression of like, you're you, I will, I will go against the voice in your head. I will go against what you think. And I will show you that you're worthy, just as you are.

• 24:01Joe Hudson?

  And that's, that's the, that's the journey. The journey is going from I have to do something to be worthy and lovable to I am worthy and lovable. And, and when that journey happens, when you, the weird part is, is that everything that you tell yourself that you aren't worthy and lovable for changes when you think you're worthy and lovable. That's the weird part, or at least 95% of it does.

• 24:25Joe Hudson?

  You know, because you're doing all that stuff that you makes you unworthy because you are trying to avoid that feeling in yourself in that moment.

• 24:34Chris Williamson?

  Interesting. You had that, I think the first ever episode we did, it was like, how to see the matrix, look at the things that you don't want to happen in your life, realize that all of your patterns are creating that exact thing to occur.

• 24:46Joe Hudson?

  Yes.

• 24:47Chris Williamson?

  The thing that you're afraid of is the thing that you're manifesting, basically, literally making happen.

• 24:51Joe Hudson?

  Yes.

• 24:53Chris Williamson?

  And increasingly, when I look at

• 24:57Chris Williamson?

  anybody, any literally anybody, especially people that are proficient or specialized in a particular way, or extraordinary or hard charging in one particular way.

• 25:06Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 25:07Chris Williamson?

  And what they are is almost always the inversion of what they fear they're not. So like, look at how beautiful this person is. They feel so ugly on the inside.

• 25:16Joe Hudson?

  Right.

• 25:17Chris Williamson?

  Look at how successful this person is. They feel like such a failure. Look at how well known and well renowned this person is, so terrified of being abandoned.

• 25:25Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 25:25Chris Williamson?

  Look at how competent this person is. They feel useless. Like, you know, it is just what you are, not for everybody, but for a lot of people.

• 25:34Joe Hudson?

  Right.

• 25:35Chris Williamson?

  What you are is this huge, big compensatory mechanism for the lack that you feel on the inside. This person's really clever.

• 25:42Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 25:43Chris Williamson?

  Or it's because they feel stupid.

• 25:46Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. Yeah. And apparently almost a necessary step, maybe not to that degree, but almost a necessary step. Right. On some level, the mind starts off with, once you do this, it'll be a, once I make enough money, once I'm powerful enough, once enough people love me, once I'm famous enough, once I'm. And then you get there and there's no there there. And so for a lot of people, that step is necessary just so that they can actually do the real work.

• 26:10Chris Williamson?

  This was this idea, unteachable lessons, I mentioned it to you before. Yeah. Fame won't fix your self-worth, money won't make you happy, you don't love that hot girl, she's just good-looking and difficult to get. Like, you should see your parents more, you should spend more time in a hammock, you will regret working so much, you can cut toxic people out of your life. Like, all of these insights are cliche and people roll their eyes at how trite they are. But that doesn't explain why anybody who's recently realized them proclaims them with sort of the renewed grandiose ceremony of someone who's gone through religious revelation. It's like, if it was so obvious, why does everybody proclaim it so, you know, ardently?

• 26:47Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 26:47Chris Williamson?

  And if, unless there is some weird conspiracy to pull the ladder up after yourself, maybe you could make the, the claim of that around like fame and money, but like around dating the wrong person or around seeing your parents more or something. It just, it wouldn't make sense. So I'm kind of fascinated by this question of can you, how much can you speedrun this? How much can you leapfrog going through the, I learned the hard lessons the hard way? Like, I disregarded the lessons of previous generations, but actually I'm going to take it this time, as opposed to believing you can dance through the minefield without kicking tripwire?

• 27:26Joe Hudson?

  I, yeah, that's a great.

• 27:29Joe Hudson?

  I do think there are lessons that you just have to learn yourself, like you have to go through it for sure. I think about, like, to some degree, when I think about what we're doing for that, for the week long, or really any of our courses, that are all equally intense.

• 27:46Joe Hudson?

  What we're doing is we're showing what true north is. We're like, oh, you've tasted it now. You have the taste, so you know it's possible. And we have total faith that you will slowly get there. Or quickly get there, but you, once you know it, you're like, oh, I'm, I don't want to live a different way. Right. I, once I see it, I don't want to live a different way. So to some degree, that's, that's the experience that we're, we're doing in, in those, like, we're, we're giving that experience so people can know that it's possible for them. But for that, because you can only learn a lesson by actually experiencing it. At the same time, there is kind of, there is a weird hack, which is.

• 28:27Joe Hudson?

  If you feel deeply loved and accepted, it, it like, you don't have so many minds in the minefield.

• 28:37Joe Hudson?

  Right. Whether you're loving yourself, or you happen to be one of those very lucky people with a great father, who showed that unconditional love to, to, to the person, or you happen to have a friend who gives you unconditional love. Like, that can speedrun a whole bunch of stuff because you see, oh, oh, that's actually what I'm looking for. The other thing I'm not really looking for.

• 29:02Chris Williamson?

  I suppose if you've had a

• 29:07Chris Williamson?

  belongingness desert, uh, if you've been sort of bereft of that.

• 29:11Joe Hudson?

  Correct. Most people.

• 29:13Chris Williamson?

  You, you have no idea what north looks like.

• 29:15Joe Hudson?

  Correct. Yeah. From my experience, like, you know, I, I had a meditation retreat. My wife required us to do a 10 day silent retreat to get married. That was part of her, like, requirement.

• 29:28Chris Williamson?

  Sure. She just didn't want a break from you?

• 29:30Joe Hudson?

  She did it with me, so probably also.

• 29:32Chris Williamson?

  We get it. I mean, I'm with him, but thank God.

• 29:36Joe Hudson?

  I, I have a good story about that. I'm going to divert and then I'll come back. I took my, my daughter wanted to do a meditation retreat and I kind of tried to tell her not to. She was like nine, 10 at the time or something like that. But she was really, really wanted to, three days. So we had a friend who had a retreat center. They agreed. We went and did it and like, we finished the whole thing. And I was like, so what was your favorite part of the retreat? And she said, she said, she said, it was the side.

• 30:04Joe Hudson?

  Nah, it was the fact that you couldn't tell me what to do for three days.

• 30:06Chris Williamson?

  Unreal. Yes, let's go.

• 30:11Joe Hudson?

  But in that retreat, that silent retreat, I had this eight seconds of awareness of who I was, like the truth of who I was. It took me another 15 years to be living that way on a daily basis, to understand that as a, as a way of being, rather than an eight second experience. But it was like my, my north star and it pulled me through. One of the things that would have made that a lot more efficient is to have experienced unconditional love. But I hadn't, I had nothing around me that was that. Tara hadn't learned it. I hadn't learned it. And so, you know, we just had to learn it step by step.

• 30:53Joe Hudson?

  But that, that does a lot because when you have unconditional love for yourself, there's no compulsion to

• 31:02Joe Hudson?

  get wealthy. You might get wealthy, but there's no compulsion to get wealthier, to get famous.

• 31:06Chris Williamson?

  Because I will, dot, dot, dot.

• 31:08Joe Hudson?

  Because all those, they're all, they're all surrogates for the thing like that we actually want.

• 31:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. The, uh, just talking about stories about

• 31:19Chris Williamson?

  parents and kids, uh, John, on the episode that we recorded, uh, was saying, he, he refused to tour. He doesn't tour anymore, um, because he just wants to be with his kids. Uh, you know, he's, he lives on Long Island and the, the biggest recording artist in the world come to his house and like sit in his studio and he just loves it. But he did a couple of shows, two shows sold out back to back. And it was at the stadium that's a 15 minute drive from where his house is. And you know, he just totally optimized for minimum time away. How can I play the largest show possible with the least amount of time away from my family? And so he only rehearsed for like three days, all this stuff.

• 31:57Chris Williamson?

  One of the shows, uh, his son was backstage and they'd set up this little playpen area for him. And, you know, John is finally.

• 32:08Chris Williamson?

  Performing after a big hiatus and he gets to bring his son, who is of an age where he can start to work out what the fuck's going on. He must be like five, something like that, maybe. And he finishes up and you know, he's sort of doing it for his family. He's even done it in the manner that is most apt to facilitate his family. So he's really tried to warp himself to make this as like family friendly as possible.

• 32:34Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 32:34Chris Williamson?

  He finishes up and he gets off stage and he says to his son, and he's like, what did he think? What did he think? And his son goes, I didn't like it.

• 32:51Chris Williamson?

  And he's like, why?

• 32:52Joe Hudson?

  That's why I love kids.

• 32:53Chris Williamson?

  Why, why didn't you, why didn't you like it? And he's like, well, the first song was okay.

• 33:00Chris Williamson?

  But then you just kept singing. And you kept singing, you kept singing and I just thought, when's dad gonna be done singing so he can come play with me? I was like, oh, so cool. When's dad gonna be done singing so he can come play with me? Your son, you've just played 20,000, 25,000 people sold out around the corner from your house, the hometown city, the all of the thing. Brought it back home, did the, did the, constructed it, brought the, got the van, brought the kids, do playpen out back, do the thing. Son was just like, dad, when are you gonna be done so you can come back and play with me?

• 33:34Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 33:34Chris Williamson?

  I don't give a fuck, 25,000 people couldn't care less, orchestra, world's billions of street, no, go fuck yourself. Like I got a Power Ranger here and he's waiting for you.

• 33:42Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Chris Williamson?

  Ah, that's unconditional, right? I want you, I want you, don't care about any of this, I want you, sick.

• 33:50Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's, yeah. And, and, and, and if you feel that from somebody, if you've, and you, and you let it in, which is also a trick to let that unconditional love in. A lot of the things that we think we want, so I want to be wealthy. Well, what makes you, what's the need behind being wealthy? Well, it's security. Well, what's the need behind security? Oh, it's so that I can feel safe. What's the need behind feeling safe? And if you start just going down all those wants, eventually you'll start seeing it's like, oh, it's, it's like a, I'm looking for a deep connection with myself and others.

• 34:31Joe Hudson?

  That's what we're looking for. That we are looking for some sense of meaning, some sense of deep connection from self and others. And neurologically speaking, that's, we also know that to be true. We're looking for that sense of happiness and that sense of meaning. That comes from that feeling of deep acceptance and love and connection.

• 34:51Chris Williamson?

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• 35:30Chris Williamson?

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• 35:58Chris Williamson?

  I usually care about the box more than that. Drinklmnt.com/modernd wisdom. Can you tell that story about your, one of your daughters was crying in the bathroom and you asked if she was pissed off?

• 36:11Joe Hudson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:12Chris Williamson?

  This is, yeah, this fucking blew my head off and I think I really wanted you to tell it.

• 36:16Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So my, my, so it's my youngest daughter. She's in the bathroom, she's crying. I go in to hang out with her and at some point I'm like, I don't think you're sad. I think you're pissed. And she goes, I am. I was like, well, how often when you're sad, are you really pissed? She's like, about half the time. She's, she's like nine.

• 36:39Joe Hudson?

  And I was like, well, why? Well, it makes you, why, why don't you get, why don't you just be pissed? And she said, because if, if my, Esme, the older daughter, if I get pissed, she just hits me. But if I get sad, she does what I want her to do.

• 36:58Chris Williamson?

  Bro.

• 37:01Chris Williamson?

  I don't think I've, I don't think I've ever heard a better explanation of why people transmute anger into sadness. They don't get mad, they get sad. They turn this displeasure outward to displeasure inward because sadness is pro-social and it causes people to come and take care of you, whereas anger is antisocial. It causes people to run away.

• 37:25Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 37:26Chris Williamson?

  Fucking brilliant.

• 37:27Joe Hudson?

  Which is strange because I think like there's a, I'm sure a lot of your audience, they are, or they deal with somebody who is, who is angry, has like a temper on them. And one of the things that I've noticed is that when somebody has that temper and then somebody gets scared of the anger, then the anger usually grows.

• 37:52Chris Williamson?

  Uh huh.

• 37:53Joe Hudson?

  Because what's happening there is the person who's angry is like, I'm out of control, I don't feel safe, I, I, I, I feel helpless and I don't want to feel helpless. And so I'm getting angry and then they're getting abandoned like, oh, and then they get even more angry because they feel even more helpless.

• 38:12Chris Williamson?

  I think there's a difference as well. I had this, I was telling you about this conversation I had with Charlie Hoopit and he's talking about people that move from victimhood status to act, action, agency status to emotionally in tuned status. And it looks like you're actually going backward because previously you were also kind of ruled by your emotions, but not through transcending and including and alchemizing them, but through them just being the winds of the day that sort of blew you around without you being able to step into them. And I think maybe sort of raw, unaware anger is not too dissimilar to that.

• 38:52Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Chris Williamson?

  You know, somebody who's raging and breaking things and unable to sort of hold themselves together.

• 39:00Chris Williamson?

  I, I'm interested in that arc between like.

• 39:05Chris Williamson?

  Instinctual anger and intuition, like intuitive anger, perhaps.

• 39:09Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 39:10Chris Williamson?

  Maybe that's the wrong terminology.

• 39:12Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So the way I think about it is like, we have these emotions, let's call it like a tube of an energy running through us. And we'll call this one anger. And then if you kind of kink it one way, it's nice dress. Or if you can't get another way, it's, I'm going to be late and, and I'm going to be passive aggressive. You can't get another way. It's yelling, it's screaming. But in any of the cases, there's shame around the anger. Instead of what the anger actually it is, when you, when it starts moving fluidly in your system is it's a cause for action and a cause for boundaries. So when I notice that I'm angry now, I'm like, oh, I'm angry. I'm like, oh, there's a boundary that needs to be drawn. I know there's a boundary that needs to be drawn somewhere. There's some way in

• 39:56Joe Hudson?

  which I am, there's something I care about that I'm not standing for, and I need to stand for it.

• 40:02Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, let's talk about boundaries.

• 40:06Chris Williamson?

  Pop psychology, favorite word of the world, people weaponizing it from their couples counseling to that you've crossed about, this is me holding a boundary. No, it's not you being an asshole like.

• 40:16Joe Hudson?

  Yes.

• 40:18Chris Williamson?

  What do good, bad boundaries look like? How do slippery, malleable, pliable boundaries turn into anger? Give me the, give me the equation there.

• 40:27Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So, uh, boundaries, the, the two easy ones to say for boundaries is the first one is that you're not ever telling somebody else what they're supposed to do. That's a power struggle. It's not a boundary. It's you telling them what you're going to do.

• 40:42Chris Williamson?

  Okay. Can you give me an example of the former and the latter?

• 40:44Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. Uh, I'm going to draw what I would say is a, a power struggle boundary, not a real boundary, would be every time you get angry, I'm going to punch you in the face. Or every time you get angry, uh, you need to leave the house. Every time you get angry, you need to apologize to me. You need to stop yelling. That's that. Whereas the other one is every time you get angry, I'm going to leave the house. Every time you get angry, I'm going to ask you to stop yelling at me. And if you don't, I'm going to leave the house and I'm going to come back in 20 minutes. And then we can continue the conversation unless you yell at me again. And then I'm going to do the same thing. So one is this is what I'm going to do. I mean, I'm, I'm the one that gets to choose for me. I'm not choosing for you.

• 41:30Joe Hudson?

  So that would be one really good thing about a boundary. If you're doing anything where you're telling somebody else what they have to do, it's not a boundary. It's a power struggle and it just shows that you're in fear and shame. You're basically passing fear and shame back and forth in the relationship. The second one is, and this is the one that will bend people's minds when they try it, is whatever the boundary is, it makes it that I'm more capable of loving you, no matter what your response. So it opens my heart to you. A great boundary opens my heart to you because it's very, very hard for us to love anything that we think oppresses us.

• 42:08Joe Hudson?

  So if I draw a boundary that opens my heart, it means that I no longer see you as the oppressor. It's, oh, I have the capacity to do what I need to do here and take care of myself, which means that you can't oppress me.

• 42:26Joe Hudson?

  So that's how I, that's how I, that's how I teach how to draw boundaries.

• 42:31Chris Williamson?

  And what happens when you don't enforce the boundaries?

• 42:36Joe Hudson?

  Well, there's nothing to enforce because it's just what you're doing.

• 42:39Chris Williamson?

  Okay, well, what happens if you don't do what your boundary would suggest that you're supposed to do or don't say that that's going to happen? What happens when they're too pliable? Like, what's the?

• 42:48Joe Hudson?

  Oh, yeah, so that's, that's, okay, so that's a cool thing about boundaries. So what happens is if somebody is scared that they're not going to maintain their boundary, what typically they'll do is they'll either do it really, really harsh. They'll be like, this is the, I'm going to leave you every single time. You yell at me, I'm getting, I'm out of the door. They'll do something like that, which unfortunately makes it harder for the person who's hearing the boundary to hear the boundary and more of a resistance going on. So you're saying, oh, I'm scared, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna flake and therefore I have to be really, really strong about this. And then, and so, so that's.

• 43:27Joe Hudson?

  So that's typically what's happening. The reason that people are usually scared or

• 43:32Chris Williamson?

  I'm freezing. Okay, so I'm gonna put a hoodie on. Keep going.

• 43:38Joe Hudson?

  Whereas people are, but if you really look at what the fear is underneath it, the fear is that I'm gonna lose connection. The reason that I'm not gonna draw the boundary is because I think that you won't love me if I, if I hold the boundary.

• 43:53Joe Hudson?

  And so that's usually why people are scared of, of, of that they're, or they, they don't, are consistent with the boundary. The other thing that happens is that the boundary will change over time naturally, if you're doing them right, because

• 44:08Joe Hudson?

  once you realize that you're not oppressed, you don't need the same kind of boundaries. So like, if I think about my father, who was an alcoholic, my first boundary with him was like, I'm not gonna be around you if you are drinking. And then it was, I'm not gonna be around you if you're drunk or hungover. And then it was, oh, I'm not gonna be around you if you treat me like this, this or this, whether you're drunk or hungover or not. And I can be around you if you're drunk or hungover, but if you treat me like this, I'm, I'm out.

• 44:38Chris Williamson?

  Oh, interesting.

• 44:39Joe Hudson?

  So the, so once you start learning that, oh, I actually am the one, I get to control my own destiny. I get to control whether I'm cared for. I get to control if I'm, if I'm loving myself. Then, then all of a sudden, the boundaries become less necessary, or they become softer, more, more open-hearted.

• 45:01Chris Williamson?

  How much of this is a fear of being seen, being sort of truly, say, this is me, this is what I want, this is, my desires are legitimate.

• 45:16Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, I, yeah, I, yes, yes. I think some of it's maybe more accurately put as, as a shame of this is who I am. This is what I want, and this is how I actually wanna live my life. Like, I'm not allowed to do that. I, like, it's, like, it's a weird thing that our mind will do, and it'll be like, no, I actually need to bend to get this kind of love. I need to. I need to be different. I need to not want that much attention. I need to not be angry. I need to not like we have this whole list of things that we have to do. And and it's like, it's a process of realizing that all of those things that are actually okay. And we can be loved for them as well.

• 46:03Chris Williamson?

  Why a more or why are people more comfortable with silently suffering than being seen sometimes?

• 46:16Joe Hudson?

  It's shame.

• 46:19Joe Hudson?

  It's shame. It's like the it's the the general thought process that there's something wrong with you.

• 46:25Joe Hudson?

  Like, that's, that's the, that's the thing. And and vulnerability is the cure for that. Like, if you whether you think about it as like 12 step programs, where the whole thing is, I'm gonna say all the things that I'm ashamed about. And I'm gonna be able to be loved in that shame. And I'm gonna see that other people are going through that and have done that. And I can see that they're good, lovely people who've made a mistake. And so I can also be a good, lovely person who made a mistake. That's the antidote for the shame. So the the biggest issue is that when people keep all that to themselves, there's no real air for the shame to decompose, right? So it's, it never becomes the compost for a better life. It just becomes this rancid thing that's

• 47:09Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 47:10Joe Hudson?

  buried deep.

• 47:11Chris Williamson?

  That's a cool analogy.

• 47:12Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 47:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you've got this line, the strongest smoke signals that you're avoiding in emotion. Number one, looping thoughts, endless overthinking. Number two, binary decisions, feeling stuck between two options. Number three, harsh judgments of others.

• 47:30Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 47:32Chris Williamson?

  Most inner work fails because it's done from the same self rejection it's trying to heal. I feel like those are linked together.

• 47:41Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. The fear one's interesting because I said binary thinking there that you think of things black or white. Buy the car, don't buy the car, do the podcast, don't do the podcast.

• 47:55Joe Hudson?

  Leave the girl, stay with the girl. That's an immediate, that's fear unexpressed. That's what that is. So when we're scared, we go into binary thinking. We, and it's why fear is really not a great ally for good problem solving or getting the most out of a situation because you start limiting your, your perspective to binary. And so that, that one, that one's particular binary, particularly fear, the binary thinking one, the one on

• 48:27Joe Hudson?

  judgment, that's really, there's no time that we're judging somebody when, when what's actually happening is there's emotion we don't want to feel.

• 48:34Chris Williamson?

  Could you give me an example?

• 48:36Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, so I am judging

• 48:43Joe Hudson?

  somebody for hawking elemente on the thing.

• 48:48Chris Williamson?

  Rightly so.

• 48:49Joe Hudson?

  Not, not, not at all. Yeah.

• 48:57Joe Hudson?

  What's actually happening there is I, if I sit with it, I'm like, oh, if I couldn't feel that judgment, that's the question you ask. If I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? And what I would might feel is jealousy that you have a

• 49:10Joe Hudson?

  a great sponsor who's aligned with you, or I might feel like I might have this idea that anytime I'm trying to sell myself or make money, I'm bad. And since I don't allow it in myself, I can't allow it in you. So I'm feeling that own because I'm, of course, we're all selling ourselves on some level. So of course I feel the shame of selling myself. So maybe it's the shame, but there's always something underneath the judgment that we're not feeling. And if you ask yourself that question, it's like an immediate resolve of judgment.

• 49:38Chris Williamson?

  Question again?

• 49:39Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, it's a, if I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel?

• 49:46Joe Hudson?

  So you can literally just go into any judgment that you have and, and just find it like, and usually they're best for like moms, dads or girlfriends, but you can say like a boyfriend's, you can say, oh, I judged my girlfriend for this. And then if I couldn't feel that judgment, what would I have to feel? And it just, you start seeing what the parts of yourself that you're not allowing.

• 50:08Chris Williamson?

  What about a practical way to break the loop of ruminations, looping thoughts, endless overthinking?

• 50:15Joe Hudson?

  Express emotions. Don't express them at people. Don't go yelling at people or being sad at somebody or being scared at somebody, which is typically what humans do, which is why we think that emotions are so bad. It's like, I'm angry, so I'm going to get angry at you, or I'm scared, so I'm going to like be really scared at you so that you take on my fear. And so nobody wants that, but we've mistaken the emotion for the aggression in the emotion, which is like you're doing it at somebody instead of just having the emotion. But if you're overthinking, I've seen this, you've seen this, like we do this in that week long that you participated in, and we do it in our, in our other courses too, the, the longer ones. Somebody has emotional expression and immediate clarity on the other side of it. I know what I need to do.

• 51:03Joe Hudson?

  So that rumination is just, I'm trying, and the, and the way to think about it intellectually is this, I am trying to,

• 51:13Joe Hudson?

  I'm trying to solve a problem. The problem I'm trying to solve is I don't want to feel a certain way.

• 51:18Joe Hudson?

  So I, should I take element or should I not take element as a sponsor? Right? So I'm in binary thinking I'm in fear because of whatever, and I'm looping on it over and over and over again. I don't want to feel like I'm wrong for having taken it, and I don't want to feel like I don't have enough money or poverty if I don't take it. I have these two feelings that I'm trying to avoid. And so if you are good with any of the feelings, because you feel them, you're like, oh, well, I'm gonna feel this, I'm gonna feel that, I'm gonna feel it all, then all of a sudden, the decision is really easy to make.

• 51:53Chris Williamson?

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• 52:38Chris Williamson?

  off, bringing it down to 399 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I get and save 100 bucks by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. You have a decisions course?

• 52:55Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 52:56Chris Williamson?

  I haven't done it.

• 52:59Chris Williamson?

  I've already heard you talk about you can't make a decision without emotions. If you are some patient going through some weird like quasi lobotomy thing, it takes you half an hour to choose which crayon to write with or what sandwich you want or et cetera. I think people are usually pretty familiar with those sorts of experiments.

• 53:19Chris Williamson?

  What, what is a little deeper about the relationship between making good decisions or making any decision and your relationship to yourself, voice in the head, your emotions?

• 53:32Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So the emotion side of it is the, is the easiest to think about. So.

• 53:42Joe Hudson?

  We are making decisions to feel a certain way where

• 53:48Joe Hudson?

  how do I, how do I feel good? How do I feel like a winner? How do I not feel rejected? How do I, this is what makes us make a decision. We want to feel right or like not wrong, whatever it is, safe. And so that's, that's what we're making decisions for. And if you think about it in a very minute way, why am I doom scrolling? Why did I decide to doom scroll? I decided because I don't want to feel whatever angst that I'm having. This is going to help me not feel that. Loneliness, boredom. Boredom, whatever it is. So, so we're making our decisions to feel and to not feel certain ways. If you start to learn to fall in love with all the emotions, which basically means not resist them, which basically means accept all the parts of yourself that weren't accept,

• 54:32Joe Hudson?

  accepted as a kid, so that you can actually be yourself, then decisions are just automatic. They're just, they're simple because this is my truth. I want to do this. I'm okay if it means that I have to mourn something. It's okay if people get upset at me. It's okay. And this is what creates like hyper success in people too, which is interesting. If you look at the, if you look at the evidence, people who are okay being disagreeable or disagreeable on the ocean scale, meaning that they're not trying to make sure everybody's happy. They're okay if people are upset with them, are far more likely to be successful in a, in a hyper successful way than people who need everybody around them to be happy. And they're also going

• 55:17Joe Hudson?

  to get paid more money. There, there's a whole bunch of like. They'll ask for the raise. They'll go up to the person at the meeting. Exactly. They'll do all the things because they're okay with somebody.

• 55:29Joe Hudson?

  And so you can either do that by being like a stone cold asshole, or you can do it by, and that works, no doubt, or you can do it by actually falling in love with all of your emotions. And then you're like, oh, cool. Like this is my truth and I'm okay with whatever emotional consequence there is to it. And you can't do that without an open heart. So you have a closed heart. You have a closed heart. You're trying not to feel. Open heart basically just means I'm feeling everything. That's what it means.

• 55:57Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it, everybody has a recency bias. I guess it's strange because my recency bias, the order of things that I've learned on the show is not always the order of the way that they're published. Yeah.

• 56:10Chris Williamson?

  Fucking Christopher Nolan's Tenet and I'm like, you know, looping back on something. But I, I, I keep thinking about this Charlie conversation I had and he talks about congruence, just beautiful idea about congruence. Yeah. You look at the person that's the victim, their sort of head, heart and loins are kind of aligned, even if they're miserable and at the mercy of the world. Yeah. Because they're doing the thing that they feel. It's rough hewn and uncrafted and unrefined, but it's happening. Then you move into action and you're like, well, head, heart and loins as well. You would look at like a Trump, a Tate around this and you'd think, say what you want about them, they're fucking fully incongruence. Like there is no doubt, I am doing the, I'm the best, the best ever, like, you know, like fucking hardest guy in the, whatever it is. Like they're incongruence. But then when you start to move into the open

• 56:55Chris Williamson?

  heart thing, the valley of despair, total white belts. Yeah. Like speaking to the fucking, you know, teacher here, but as far as I can see. Yeah. One of the pains that people feel when making that move into living with an open heart. Yeah. Is the incongruence starts to come back in. They, they are uncertain about the stuff that they used to do. And it's like, I used to get results. Right. When I just was the asshole, when I was disagreeable without an open heart or as disagreeable, how do you say, like, from, from disposition, not from curation or not from awareness, perhaps. Yeah. Like, like unconsciously competent as opposed to consciously competent. Yeah.

• 57:37Chris Williamson?

  But to go through that, you go through consciously incompetent first because you're like, oh God, I used to have these patterns and these ways of operating and now I need to work out how to like integrate, transcend and include all of this stuff. Yeah. To get back to the place that I was. It's like, yeah, but it's not the same as having never left. Like to go on this big fuck off journey. This is the story of Paulo Coelho, the alchemist, right? Like the gold's in the backyard, but like you gotta go on the fuck off journey to come back around to land at the same place. Yeah. But that lack of congruence is where people go, oh, well, this, this is obviously wrong. Like there's obviously something wrong because previously I was getting results. Now I'm not even sure if I'm doing the right thing and I've lost the fucking results, at least in part, in this little valley bit in the middle before you get back to.

• 58:23Chris Williamson?

  It's started to slot back together and I've got something appropriate incompetence again.

• 58:27Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, I think that there's, there's a couple of things that are missing from that story. The first thing that I think is missing from the story is whatever you were getting wasn't good enough beer, you wouldn't fucking be on the journey. So, so yeah, you were getting results, but the results weren't what you wanted. Or you wouldn't, there'd be no impetus to go on the journey. There's something missing. And so, yeah, maybe you're not getting results like you used to get, but the results you used to get were.

• 58:56Chris Williamson?

  Weren't the results you wanted.

• 58:57Joe Hudson?

  Weren't the results you wanted. So, so I think that's one part that I think is missing in the journey. The other thing that I don't really see it as you become less capable, that's not my experience. It sometimes happens, it sometimes doesn't. But the way I see it is that you no longer can deal with the lack of congruity that's there. Meaning there, there's some sort of congruence that happens where the Andrew Tates of the world, they are, they, there's like, there's a deep authenticity. Like, there just is a deep authenticity. You might not like it, you might not want it, but there's like this deep authenticity. But there's not, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it a congruence. I wouldn't call it a deep alignment with, because the, there's still this big war inside of themselves.

• 59:38Joe Hudson?

  Like, you're, you're looking at their war. So, to some degree, it's like, yeah, they can get things done in the world. But what's, the journey is, I'm getting something done in the world, but I still feel this war inside of myself. How do I, how do I get things done in the world and not be at war with myself? That's the question. And what happens on that journey is at some point, you're so sensitive that you know the war is going on in yourself. Like, you've gotten to the point where you're like, I get it. This, there's something going on that, that sucks and I don't want it, which is what is the beginning of the journey. So I think the words I would use, but I get Charlie's words and I love Charlie, is that, that I would call that there's a, there's authenticity,

• 1:00:23Joe Hudson?

  but there's not like that deep alignment. There's still war, they're still in war with themselves.

• 1:00:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:28Joe Hudson?

  They're still trying to prove something.

• 1:00:30Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think.

• 1:00:30Joe Hudson?

  They're still trying, like, you're the most powerful man in the world and you still need X, Y, and Z, or you're the, the media celebrity, but you still need X. There's still something you're trying to prove. And so that's what drops.

• 1:00:44Chris Williamson?

  The thing that it makes me think about is.

• 1:00:51Chris Williamson?

  Someone, uh, somebody who goes from that authenticity to true congruence, right? Where the heart actually starts to align with the actions and, and sort of the desires. Being exposed to someone, or being seen by somebody who doesn't have that level of awareness, I, I like having to dance around the words a little bit because I don't want it to sound like a value judgment for people who like, don't feel things so very deeply.

• 1:01:20Joe Hudson?

  Right.

• 1:01:20Chris Williamson?

  As if there's some sort of amount of worth that comes along with that. But they're just, are there certain people who are going to question things more, feel things more, be more self-aware, self-reflective, ruminative, do the, do the hypervigilance, obsessive thing. And just like, pay attention to what's going on internally and externally a little bit more.

• 1:01:38Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Chris Williamson?

  And I think one of the challenges as a avatar for that type of person is you are seen by people for whom that is not going to be their future. That is not going to be their path. And they're just locked in, in authenticity at action, action and results. And like, the emotions piece is not going to play a huge role, or as huge of a role perhaps in their future.

• 1:02:05Joe Hudson?

  It's playing a huge role. It's just, they're not going to be aware.

• 1:02:09Chris Williamson?

  That might be a better way to put it. And, uh, you, trying to have that conversation as somebody who's trying to take that step with somebody who isn't.

• 1:02:19Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:19Chris Williamson?

  Now, or maybe ever, uh, results in you looking kind of silly in some ways. It takes a kind of bravery, I think, to avoid the social judgment of somebody who sees you as not evolving into your emotions, but devolving back out of them into like, oh my God, you're just being driven around by your emotions, like how irrational, supposed to, oh, how beautiful, you're diving into them.

• 1:02:44Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Chris Williamson?

  And that there's already enough self-doubt and uncertainty and fear and shame around, fucking hell, like I'm starting to feel like I just teared up on the, playing the song, like how silly. And go, go, go, go, go.

• 1:03:00Chris Williamson?

  The, I'm interested of how people navigate. And I think this is what I said about living in the world with an open heart.

• 1:03:08Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Chris Williamson?

  Is some of this different level communication thing and you're speaking in not only different dialects, but totally different languages with people.

• 1:03:16Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:17Chris Williamson?

  And that can, it can be easy to be mocked, to feel silly. How do you, how do you think about navigating that? Because it would be lovely to just have a perfect, beautiful, supportive container or your own amount of self-belief, so much that the container no longer matters. But you're going to, you're going to interact with that, like, you know, alpha Chad or alpha boss bitch lady or guy at work around the water cooler is like, fucking gay, that dude, like, whatever.

• 1:03:44Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:45Chris Williamson?

  How do you think about navigating that spikiness of the world with the sensitivity, open heart, truth, boundary? Like, all of that stuff?

• 1:03:52Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So there's a couple of ways I think about it. The first, the first way I think about it is imagine you are, I'm going to get in trouble for this, but you're an ISIS terrorist and you have a whole bunch of ISIS terrorist friends.

• 1:04:03Chris Williamson?

  They're gone. It's fucking Hezbollah now, right?

• 1:04:07Joe Hudson?

  Hezbollah.

• 1:04:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Joe Hudson?

  Hezbollah terrorists or whatever. You're, you're with a whole bunch of terrorist friends and one day you're like, oh, I realize I probably shouldn't be blowing up innocent people. Well, as it turns out, and then you, and then you're asking me, what do I do? And all my friends are like, no, you should blow up people, innocent people. It's like, yeah, that, that like, to some degree, what it is, is that there's some people who judge you and who think you're dumb for working out. There's some people who judge you, think you're dumb for needing as much of attention on a podcast. Some people think you're dumb for being on a reality television show. Some people think you're dumb for being a guru.

• 1:04:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, but point taken. It's the problem with actually bringing someone on who really knows you. Yeah, fine, fine, fine. Yep.

• 1:04:53Joe Hudson?

  Or think you're dumb for like, teaching the emotional stuff.

• 1:04:57Chris Williamson?

  Prostitizing about blah, blah.

• 1:04:58Joe Hudson?

  Exactly. So, so there's always going to be some people who do that. And so the question is, how do you handle that? In all the places that it's already happening and what makes this particular place being emotional, the sensitive place, because I see you do it and everybody do it on 20 other things. But, but then there's this one thing that it's like hard to do it on and it's usually an indication, indication that that's where you're judging yourself. If you're not judging yourself, then they say, that's like emotional blah blah, like you're just a pansy. And the response is, yeah.

• 1:05:35Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, I'm emotional.

• 1:05:37Chris Williamson?

  And I love myself. And that's okay.

• 1:05:38Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, it's like, like there's a, there's this great term I heard recently called vagal authority. Are you familiar with this term?

• 1:05:46Chris Williamson?

  Vagal authority.

• 1:05:47Joe Hudson?

  Authority, so.

• 1:05:48Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that's sick. I like it already.

• 1:05:49Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, so, so it's, it's basically I, my nervous system, the calmness of my nervous system is going to have authority in the room. So in Japan, the police are taught this and they're taught never to raise their voice. A way that we learn it in the States is paramedics never run to the body. They always walk to the body.

• 1:06:08Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 1:06:08Joe Hudson?

  Cause they don't want to amp up the, they don't want the other person to feel like scared and then it amps their adrenal system. So it's like this vagal authority. When somebody says that to you and you've maintained vagal authority, it's over. And you see this with like little kids bullying each other. There's this great YouTube video and hopefully we can, I can send you the link. About how to stop, like if you're being bullied as a kid, how to stop it. And the whole thing is just maintaining vagal authority. It's basically not reacting to the bullying. If the bully bullies you and you don't react to it, they stop.

• 1:06:43Joe Hudson?

  It's just done and it's, and you can watch it like over and over and over again. It's just like, you're an asshole. Yeah, I'm an asshole.

• 1:06:52Joe Hudson?

  What, what are you gonna do? You're a pansy. Ah, yeah, I'm a pansy. Like there's, there's no, it's like the Taoists have this great saying about it. It's in a fight between the sword and a sword and the ocean, the ocean always wins.

• 1:07:06Chris Williamson?

  What's that mean to you?

• 1:07:08Joe Hudson?

  Like, you have to have something to hit.

• 1:07:13Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:14Joe Hudson?

  If you, if you attack me and you hit me, I get really excited because it means there's some part of myself I'm not ju- I'm still judging. There's some part of myself I'm not allowing. That means that there's more freedom that I get to go and have.

• 1:07:28Joe Hudson?

  Right? So if I get triggered, I'm excited because I'm like, there's some, something in me that is like, that is still tight and solid and, and, and that, that, that is not true.

• 1:07:39Chris Williamson?

  That's not the ocean.

• 1:07:40Joe Hudson?

  It's not the ocean. And so for me, this, what I would say to somebody who is like, yeah, what do I do with the, the hard person who's like making fun of me for crying? I'd say, great. What's the part of you that's still having a problem with you crying?

• 1:07:59Joe Hudson?

  Cause that's where your freedom is.

• 1:08:02Chris Williamson?

  The-

• 1:08:03Joe Hudson?

  Every, every judgment, every, every time we're triggered, every time we get defensive, there is, it is a direct pointer for where we can get more freedom in our life.

• 1:08:15Joe Hudson?

  Which is why kids are so awesome to go back to it because kids will trigger the shit out of you.

• 1:08:21Chris Williamson?

  That's another area. That's-

• 1:08:22Joe Hudson?

  That's another area. That's another area. Hey dad, I don't care about all of your music. I don't care about all those fans. I don't care about all those things that you think make you a good person.

• 1:08:34Chris Williamson?

  I've got only Power Ranger and you didn't get to play with me.

• 1:08:36Joe Hudson?

  Exactly. Like boom, your identity just, and then you get to find out what you really are. Because you and I are both at a place where we're like special in society somehow. We're famous for this or that, or like, we have this like perch. But you and I know we've like interacted with all those people. It's not who any of us are. Like, nobody's special. Everybody, what they say puts one pants, pants one leg on at a time. But, you know, everybody feels angry and sad and everybody feels angst and like it's happening to all of us. There's no, and so-

• 1:09:14Chris Williamson?

  I can't remember who it is, some medieval philosopher that talks about, uh, from the king in his castle to the peasant in the street, everybody shits.

• 1:09:23Joe Hudson?

  Everybody shits.

• 1:09:24Chris Williamson?

  Everybody shits. In other news, I've been drinking AG1 every morning for years now. Dude, you tried to fastball me that. That was down the plate and I've just shohei otani it. I've been drinking AG1 for as long as I can remember. It is the best all in one drink that I've ever found and that's why I'm such a fan of them. And that's why I partnered with them as well. I have got my mum to start taking it, my dad to start taking it and all of my friends as well. And if I found anything better, I would switch, but I haven't. Why do you keep throwing it at the mic? Stop throwing it at the mic. See, anyway, uh, over 75 vitamins, minerals and whole food sourced ingredients. It's got probiotics and prebiotics. Also NSF certified, meaning that even Olympians can use it. And in the throat, in the throat. How dare you?

• 1:10:08Chris Williamson?

  I hit the, I hit the.

• 1:10:15Chris Williamson?

  Ah, ah. This isn't even an ad read anymore. It's just a war zone. Oh, okay, okay. Anyway, if you too want something to throw at your friends or a tasty blend of 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics and whole food sourced ingredients designed to drink first thing in the morning in one scoop, it's here. Go to drinkag1.com/modernd wisdom for stuff.

• 1:10:43Chris Williamson?

  I thank you. I'm interested in the listening to yourself portion of this, uh, to just harp a little bit more on the difference between irrational instinct being at the mercy of and cultivated intuition, listening to the fleeting thought, the quiet voice of, because those two things can't be the same. The person who is swept away by their anger and blows up and does all of this stuff. Well seen, yeah. Do you get the, the tension that I'm talking about yet? Yeah. And again, I'm, well, I'm really trying to drill into, again, my recency bias with

• 1:11:23Chris Williamson?

  Charlie is the fear, this is my journey. This is my journey right now. My journey right now is I've spent a long time in action. I felt helpless for a lot of my life. I then decided to step into no longer feeling helpless. Yeah. I'm now going from that to, okay, unteachable lessons. You buttfucked me enough. Like, I get it. I get it. I get it. Like there is more, there is deeper to go. What's the next journey? The next journey is to go into feeling everything as opposed to just acting everything. Yeah. Okay.

• 1:11:54Chris Williamson?

  There was a part of being swept away by emotion previously.

• 1:11:57Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:58Chris Williamson?

  A lot of it was suppression for me, but for other people, there may be tons and tons and tons of like emotion. So irrational instinct to sort of cultivated intuition.

• 1:12:07Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:07Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about that, like.

• 1:12:09Joe Hudson?

  So it doesn't really matter in the long run. So long run, the, the, if you're aware and you're bringing awareness to the, to your actions, you're going to very, very, very, very quickly realize that when you are swept away by emotions and you're not, you're in your pattern, it's going to be painful. And in the long run, when you listen to that intuition, it's going to feel right, it's going to be more right, it's not going to bring all the drama. So on some level, you can listen to either one of them and do it because you immediately will realize, or within a week or two, realize that wasn't that. Like, there's a big distinction that being swept away by the emotion didn't actually serve me.

• 1:12:54Joe Hudson?

  And listening to that intuition, deep intuition did, and you'll start to make a distinction in your body. So in the long run, it's like, the way I would say it, it's like, if you're working out wrong, if you're working out in a way that hurts your body, your body's going to get hurt and you're going to realize that, and you're going to then change the way that you work out, as an example, right?

• 1:13:15Joe Hudson?

  But that's not like the most efficient. The most efficient thing is to have someone tell you, okay, here's how you work that thing out so that you don't hurt yourself, right? And so, so what I would say is that

• 1:13:30Joe Hudson?

  if you are triggered or in judgment, then it's not the, it's not the intuition.

• 1:13:37Joe Hudson?

  If it's like a little bit scary, then it's far more likely to be the intuition. Because if it's a little scary, it's out of your pattern.

• 1:13:46Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that's cool. That's cool. That's cool because it's, the path of least resistance is likely to be more reactive, old pattern.

• 1:13:55Joe Hudson?

  Exactly.

• 1:13:56Chris Williamson?

  The one where you go.

• 1:13:58Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. Ooh, am I going to do that?

• 1:14:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:00Joe Hudson?

  And then you want to accelerate the curve, you just go do that, like immediately. So a lot of times people will say to me, I don't understand how you just have a realization that immediately it's in your life.

• 1:14:12Chris Williamson?

  Act on it.

• 1:14:12Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, immediately act on it. And the answer is probably unrewarding, but it's exactly that, is I act on it. So recently in business, we were. I had this recognition that I was not asking for what I wanted in a way that was clear. And so I just announced to the whole business, hey, here's this way in which I'm not clear in which and what I'm at for the way that I'm asking for what I want. I apologize. I'm sorry that I did that. That's not fair to any of you. I take full ownership of it. And I am going to start doing it more directly. If I mess up, please let me know. Just directly come to me and say, this isn't working and I will start making adjustments. And then I found six different ways to ask for directly what I wanted, how I wanted it. And I did it.

• 1:14:59Chris Williamson?

  How important?

• 1:14:59Joe Hudson?

  And was it scary? Yeah, of course it was scary, but it's like immediately doing the thing as many reps as I can possibly do it. That's how that's how you change it.

• 1:15:10Chris Williamson?

  Alex Hormozi's got this idea, which I think is

• 1:15:14Chris Williamson?

  on the outside, he might not seem like a compatriot of your world, but he very much is in his own flavor. And he has this idea where

• 1:15:28Chris Williamson?

  the life that you want is on the other side of a few hard decisions. And the reason that you're not living is because you're too afraid to have them. And when you have the first one, what he's noticed is you got to find someone, you got to get rid of somebody and you thought about it. And oh, my God, I can't do it. And they've been there for six months longer than they should have done, two years longer, five years longer than they should have done. And then finally you do it and you realize, oh, that was okay. And then the next thing you do is like, oh, what are the conversations going to have that like that? And you've got this sniper rifle out and you turn from like being a hitman into a mass shooter. And you're like, okay, I'm gonna like, you're like, holy shit, it's a machine gun.

• 1:16:01Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:02Chris Williamson?

  So it's kind of interesting that when the volume of the lesson gets so loud that you can't ignore it, you finally do it. But then you kind of go on this run.

• 1:16:11Joe Hudson?

  Right.

• 1:16:12Chris Williamson?

  Like Shohei Ohtani, you just have this absolute streak of

• 1:16:15Joe Hudson?

  And the and the that gap that you were saying between what I would call authenticity and that deeper alignment, attunement is Charlie's word for it, I believe, that is the is the action.

• 1:16:29Joe Hudson?

  It's like, oh, what are those scary actions that I'm not taking? I'm gonna go take them. And if I just line those up and do those reps, that that transition is much shorter.

• 1:16:40Joe Hudson?

  And it might you might get rid of a lot of people.

• 1:16:43Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:16:46Joe Hudson?

  Let's say one of the pieces of when you get into the two minutes like, oh, I've been caretaking a lot of people. Then a whole bunch of people that you stopped caretaking might not want to be in the relationship anymore. The ones who stay are going to be great. Or if I'm a terrorist and I want to stop blowing people up, I'm probably going to have to change friend groups.

• 1:17:10Chris Williamson?

  Have I told you about my lonely chapter idea thing? Basically, when you go from a place that you are to a place that you are that you don't want to be to a place that you do want to be, you become so developed, you can't resonate with your old set of friends, but not yet sufficiently developed that you've built your new set of friends. And you're sort of stuck in this zone of uncertainty. It tarnishes the process. You're permanently in self doubt. You don't know where you're going to go. I was thinking about this, I think this was maybe a couple of weeks after we were together, or maybe it was a couple of weeks before, I can't remember. Anyway, this is the other side of the lonely chapter. So I've been talking about this for like three years. I'll read you a little essay.

• 1:17:54Chris Williamson?

  You're a different character in the mind of each person who knows you because their impression of you is made of the bare bones of what they've seen fleshed out by their knowledge of themselves. So my friend, Gwyneth Boghul, the lonely chapter has another perspective to it. As you grow, you don't fit in with your friends, but this means that they don't fit in with you either. And this causes a reaction from their side, too. The hardest part of changing yourself isn't just improving your habits, it's escaping people who keep handing you your old costume. Others don't remember who you were, they enforce it, which is why reinvention often feels so much like trying to break out of a prison that you can't see. Psychologists call this dynamic an object relation. When people interact with you, they're not engaging with you in your full living complexity, they're dealing with the version of you that exists in their head, a simplified character

• 1:18:39Chris Williamson?

  built from fragments of memory and colored by their own projections. In object relations theory, an object isn't a thing, it's the internalized image of another person. We don't just carry people as they are, we carry a mental sketch, which is why if you make a radical change, you'll usually meet resistance. Your transformation destabilizes the representative. That the people around you are attached to, so they try to nudge you back into the familiar role that you know. Charles Horton Cooley called this the looking glass self. We come to know ourselves by seeing our own reflection in other people's eyes. If these mirrors keep reflecting the old you, it's hard to step into the new one. In social psychology, self verification theory shows that people prefer interactions that confirm what they already believe about themselves and about you. And if you disrupt this script, you introduce friction.

• 1:19:22Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:24Joe Hudson?

  So all true and exactly why, especially the places we judge ourselves is where we feel that pressure from the society. However, it really changes if you're just conscious about it, meaning

• 1:19:40Joe Hudson?

  we all want to evolve. There's like, there's, there's like a migrational path that we all have. We all have this, and there's a lot of human development studies that show that there is a path of development that we want to go down. And maybe it gets stopped because of trauma or life events, but we all want to do it. So if you sit down with your group of friends and you say, hey, this is who I was. And this is who, and this is a transition and I would love your support in it. And this is where you can see things that are different, which is what I did with the company. Like here's my, here's what it's, what's going on. What I noticed is at least 80% of the people want to support you in that process. If it's conscious, if you just go and do it, it's different.

• 1:20:22Chris Williamson?

  So that's why I had a question I tried to interrupt you with, which was how important is setting the scene? How important is saying, this is a thing that I've noticed and a blah, blah, blah, because you know, the ruthless CEO archetype might just be, I'll just go and do the thing. I'll just say the way it's going to be. You went through this unnecessarily superfluous fucking storytelling thing. Sit everybody down here, come lie in my armpit, like, let me give you the, you know. How important is the scene setting of this is me, I have realized this thing?

• 1:20:50Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So let me, let me answer that as if you were that CEO who just said that to me. I'd be like, yeah, that's exactly how you should handle

• 1:21:00Joe Hudson?

  explaining the context of your company to your customer. I'm not going to hand hold you. I'm not going to put you in my arm and elbow you and rub you and nuzzle you and say, yeah, my company sells really great products. Of course you are. You're going to set context everywhere. How do I, how do I, how do I get somebody in on my page is to like, I let them understand how I'm making the decision. As a matter of fact, one of the things I see inside of companies, one of the biggest inefficiencies is that nobody has the shared context. Nobody actually understands all the things that the CEO understands and therefore the CEO feels like they're all alone. Because they don't actually have the context.

• 1:21:40Chris Williamson?

  Well, from a decision-making perspective, they are, right? Like a CEO is a complex decision-making machine who has a degree of perspective and context that is

• 1:21:54Chris Williamson?

  unreplicable, very difficult to, to have anywhere else, which is why this amount of perspective and context gives you the, the ability to aggregate all of this stuff. And it sounds to me like you're saying the job of the CEO is to try and make that perspective as widely known as possible.

• 1:22:14Joe Hudson?

  Especially within his top six, seven people. Absolutely. I would, I would say that's a bad CEO. A good CEO is somebody who's helping, is sharing his problems with a group of smart people and making a decision with them.

• 1:22:28Chris Williamson?

  And I assume the same is true in a relationship.

• 1:22:30Joe Hudson?

  Absolutely. Yeah. So most relationship death comes from share, not sharing context. So the first thing I would say is it's very efficient to share the context. You don't have to do it. It's just super efficient. Lot less turmoil, a lot less clunk.

• 1:22:47Chris Williamson?

  I see where they're coming from. I understand their motivation.

• 1:22:50Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, they're my friend. I want to support them in their journey. Yeah. And I also feel that same call in me somewhere, somewhere I feel that same call in me.

• 1:23:01Joe Hudson?

  Like even if I'm making fun of you for having the emotion, even that reaction tells you that there, there's something.

• 1:23:07Chris Williamson?

  They're judging again.

• 1:23:08Joe Hudson?

  They're, yeah, exactly. They're judging themselves.

• 1:23:13Joe Hudson?

  And so you know that it's in there in them. And so give them the opportunity, open up the door for them as well by being by sharing, sharing your own vulnerability. And, and again, can't do that without an open heart. Close your heart down and you're not going to share the context. Close your heart down, you're not going to bring your friends along for the ride.

• 1:23:34Chris Williamson?

  Let me give you an example. I already told Charlie this story. We filmed this vlog tracking the New York and Toronto shows that we did a couple of weeks ago. And it's beautiful.

• 1:23:44Joe Hudson?

  I hear they, I hear they're going really well, man. We're crushing it. Congratulations.

• 1:23:47Chris Williamson?

  Thank you. Yeah, you selfishly decided to put a retreat on, so you can't hang out with me this Saturday. It's fine, we can do it again sometime. Anyway, Max, who you met videographer was, you know, turned this edit around and it was a week of footage, turned into an hour of lot and it's beautiful. I fucking loved it and I was, I'm so proud and it's real, it's a real different angle on the way that everything looks. Anyway, I got all excited about it. There was an error on the upload. It was up for 10 minutes, came back down. That's like cancerous to reach because all the notifications have got triggered and then this thing happens and it pulls back down. And people that were watching it can't watch it and then they're not going to watch it again and da, da, da. And in between one of the episodes earlier this week, I come out and I'm like, oh, how's, has everything gone up? Okay. On the things I'm going to the bathroom and they were like, oh yeah, there was a little bit of an error.

• 1:24:27Chris Williamson?

  And immediately my response was, oh, what happened? Here's the process. We need to make sure that the thing, I'm so frustrated.

• 1:24:38Chris Williamson?

  And I realized a little bit later, when I was talking to Charlie, that what I should have done is gone.

• 1:24:47Chris Williamson?

  Ow.

• 1:24:49Chris Williamson?

  I really loved that thing and I really wanted other people to love it too. And I thought it was really special. And maybe they're not going to get to see it in the same way. Ow, like I got my hopes up. I should have said that. I didn't. We must make sure who's the, where the process, we got to get the thumbnail with the title and to get the, what? So that was a, that was a very much you ventriloquizing me from wherever the fuck.

• 1:25:15Joe Hudson?

  I would say both are really important.

• 1:25:19Joe Hudson?

  Ow, that sucks. So people can see you so like so, so, so the, the team can be like, oh, he's human and I empathize and yeah, it sucks for me too. And we can be human in this together. And how do we make sure this, how the fuck do we make sure this doesn't happen again? Because that anger that you feel is a boundary. There's a boundary there of like, oh, hi, like if we're gonna do this, like, how do we make sure we're doing it right?

• 1:25:43Joe Hudson?

  But I think both are really critical and, and that, I think that is the integration that you're talking about from gunning from one place to the other. It's like the, there's a, because there's some fear in the system,

• 1:25:55Joe Hudson?

  then it's like, I either should be open-hearted or I should be get shit done and ruthless. And it's like, they're not mutually exclusive. I can be open-hearted and be very clear about my vision and what I want to do and how I want to be and, and, and, and the reach that I want to have, of course, like, how could I not? Think about it like a mom, a mom, open-hearted, or a dad in this case, open-hearted to their son, open-hearted, ruthless. He was ruthless. I am going to do this 15 minutes from my house. I'm gonna do, I'm not gonna tour. It was all

• 1:26:35Joe Hudson?

  ruthless and deeply open-hearted for his son. And it, and it's both. And, and the, and the models that we're like looking for are the people who do both. And we just for a while in the journey, get confused that it's one or the other.

• 1:26:50Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, you've mentioned your business too many times for me to not do this. I mean, I'm gonna have an intervention with you. You've done enough to me, so I'm gonna put the shoe on the other fucking foot for a second. Okay. Have you spoken to your team after the call that me and my YouTube guy had?

• 1:27:05Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, man, we are so grateful.

• 1:27:07Chris Williamson?

  Did you, did you listen to a recording or did they give you a full breakdown? Did they talk to you about what I want as your new vertical for content?

• 1:27:14Joe Hudson?

  We've already recorded two.

• 1:27:16Chris Williamson?

  How did they go?

• 1:27:18Joe Hudson?

  We recorded three. That tells you how it went. Two of them are good. Two of them, I think are great. One of them was the golf one that I think you recommended. Yeah, that was actually really cool. And then there was one, so context for everybody listening. You wanted me to do reaction videos to.

• 1:27:33Chris Williamson?

  Let me, I'll give context to your context.

• 1:27:34Joe Hudson?

  Okay, great.

• 1:27:35Chris Williamson?

  I had a conversation with Mike Isretel about three or four years ago. Who was on that call? Was it Dean?

• 1:27:44Chris Williamson?

  Me and, maybe it was just me. Anyway, um, Mike is a, probably the fastest growing channel in all of health and fitness, has been for the last three or four years. I mentioned it on the call with your guys.

• 1:27:53Joe Hudson?

  He's like the, the big guy bald?

• 1:27:55Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:56Joe Hudson?

  And you did a, like a workout thing with him?

• 1:27:58Chris Williamson?

  I've done a number of those. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:59Joe Hudson?

  Cool. I know who you're talking about.

• 1:28:01Chris Williamson?

  We're friends. He's been on the show a bunch. The first time he came on, he was like, the YouTube channel's kind of floundering a bit. There were maybe a million subs, a little bit less. What do you think that we should do? And I'm by no means like some fucking super master at YouTube, but especially if someone's super talented and they're just missing the unlock.

• 1:28:16Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Chris Williamson?

  I was like, okay, here's a bunch of things. From then until now, they've gained three million subs in like three years. So like real vertical growth. And the guy's the same guy. He's been in the fitness industry for forever.

• 1:28:24Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Chris Williamson?

  I was like, huh, that was cool. Like that was, there was something there and we became really good friends and he, uh, very flatteringly attributes at least some of the growth to some of the shit that we got them. Although it's all his talent.

• 1:28:36Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:37Chris Williamson?

  It's largely that. Um, and it's just the same format for you. I'm sorry. It's the same format. And the reason I'm sorry is that one of your fundamental fears is like an increase in exposure.

• 1:28:51Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:52Chris Williamson?

  For you.

• 1:28:52Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:53Chris Williamson?

  Not for the mission. Um, but I know for a fact that if you start to do master coach critiques or master coach assesses or master coach whatevers, it will, it will do to YouTube something that we haven't seen for quite a while. Like I'm confident that that's going to happen. You've got the team. You've got the way that it's filmed. You've got the edit style. You've got as well that Mike didn't at the time, the roadmap, because you can just go, I'm just going to do the emotion equivalent of what he did for exercise science.

• 1:29:26Joe Hudson?

  Gotcha.

• 1:29:26Chris Williamson?

  And it is, I'm, I'm usually not wrong.

• 1:29:31Joe Hudson?

  Okay.

• 1:29:31Chris Williamson?

  So I.

• 1:29:33Joe Hudson?

  So I was very resistant. I was like.

• 1:29:34Chris Williamson?

  I knew you were. I said, I was like, he's going to fucking hate it and I can't wait for him to hate it. It's so good. Cause I get to turn it around after he's bitched me for an entire week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fuck you, Joe Hudson.

• 1:29:45Joe Hudson?

  He, yeah, so you know, we have a principle in our company that's everything's in iteration. So I was sitting there going, this is, oh, I don't want to do this. And my team was like, everything's in iteration.

• 1:29:57Joe Hudson?

  Sit your butt down because for us, like our principles are more important than any one person's decision. Like this is, this is how we operate, including mine. Yeah, exactly. And so they just put stuff in front of me and, and looked, looked at, first of all, we all decided Tara would be far better at reaction videos because she's so much more expressive than I am. But there was one that was like a reality television show and my reaction was, oh God, why does anybody watch this?

• 1:30:29Chris Williamson?

  That's bunking the game.

• 1:30:30Joe Hudson?

  That one didn't work. That one didn't work. But there was, there's a couple that I thought were just like amazing to do. Actually, I again was, I was like, well, I was wrong. That was amazing.

• 1:30:40Chris Williamson?

  You had fun?

• 1:30:40Joe Hudson?

  I had fun. I enjoyed it.

• 1:30:42Chris Williamson?

  Unreal.

• 1:30:42Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. So I think it's really critical that we get,

• 1:30:47Joe Hudson?

  you know, a list of things that I can do that would, that's, that are going to feel good, but there's some that are just, I'm not going to, I can't do like, pop culture commentary.

• 1:30:55Chris Williamson?

  Well, you're going to learn, you know, the, the bucket of what is and isn't appropriate. And I'm sure that Mike has been, uh, his Scott, the video guy, his guy at RP will have put videos in front of him and he's like, no, and they, they probably never made the channel, right? Or they did and they didn't perform or whatever. And over time, the curation, in the same way for that vertical of content, the same way as my guest selection is paramount. It's the most important thing. The most important thing for you guys is what's the video? Like what is it? Or the, the incident or whatever that I'm responding to? What is that? Because that's the well from which you're drawing all of this stuff out. And as they say in the UK, you can't polish a turd.

• 1:31:37Chris Williamson?

  And some of them may not be turds, but you're just an incompatible turd with that turd.

• 1:31:41Joe Hudson?

  My, the one that I had the most fun with was a fight scene from a, of comedy from, I think it was like the early aughts called a, Called uh, this is forty.

• 1:31:52Chris Williamson?

  And I had the, you know, Judd Apatow, who was the guy that made it? He was sat in that seat yesterday.

• 1:31:57Joe Hudson?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:31:57Chris Williamson?

  Yep, yeah, yep, yep.

• 1:31:58Joe Hudson?

  So. So, yeah, so I break down that fight scene and I'm like, and it was so fun.

• 1:32:04Chris Williamson?

  I'm so fired up for you to do this.

• 1:32:06Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:32:06Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:32:07Joe Hudson?

  Thank you, thank you for that.

• 1:32:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, no, no, no, I think title and thumb, keep it master coach, something, master coach critiques, master coach assesses, master coach reacts, whatever it is.

• 1:32:14Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:15Chris Williamson?

  Super simple. This is forty fight scene, like Scott Shiffler's, Shiffler's golf speech, like whatever it might be like, you have an infinite amount of growth, like literally a vertical amount of growth to do from that.

• 1:32:28Joe Hudson?

  That speech is, is phenomenal.

• 1:32:32Chris Williamson?

  Do you want to give a little like summary for the, I don't know what we're talking about?

• 1:32:36Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, so it's this, I, I'm not a golf follower, but this is the, the preeminent golf guy now, like just amazing apparently. And he basically talks about winning and how the feeling of winning lasts about two minutes. And then, then he literally goes, and then you guys are just asking me, he's gonna say, talking to a bunch of reporters. You all are just asking me, like, how am I gonna do on the next one? So like, it's gone, like, all this winning doesn't mean anything. But what he says, which is the secret of it all, and the, and like, he says it like three or four times. He just keeps on saying, I'm just the guy who loves to practice. I'm just the guy who loves to practice.

• 1:33:15Joe Hudson?

  And that is the, like, what makes him so successful is that he loves the doing of it, not the, not the reward of it. And so, so many people are sitting in their, I, their rooms right now, listening to this or doing something and going, I want the reward of fame, I want the reward of money, I want the reward of a great girlfriend, I want the reward of, and it will last two minutes.

• 1:33:40Joe Hudson?

  You gotta love the thing that you're doing if you're gonna actually have the success and maintain it. Right? You love having conversations with people. And I, I'm actually, I, when I leave here, I'm gonna talk to a, a woman at UTA who runs the, the literary department there, and we're talking about a book and. And she asked me, she's like, well, what do you want from the book? And I said, I won't do anything for money that I wouldn't do for free.

• 1:34:09Chris Williamson?

  The best story I've learned from you around that, I mean, this meme, this meme needs to go so much wider than it has with you just like flicking it onto the floor like you're tossing like a bit of offal into the bin or something. Your daughter came to you and said, I've got my first billion dollar idea. And you said, oh, wow, it's an idea that you can sell for a billion dollars. Says, no, no, no, it's an idea that I wouldn't give away if someone offered me a billion dollars. Fucking, yes, money.

• 1:34:36Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:37Chris Williamson?

  Such money. And that's what you're talking about.

• 1:34:38Joe Hudson?

  That's what I'm talking about.

• 1:34:39Chris Williamson?

  We're going to talk about the book before you leave as well. Don't worry.

• 1:34:41Joe Hudson?

  Okay.

• 1:34:41Chris Williamson?

  I've got, I've got things that I need to say. James Clear.

• 1:34:45Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Chris Williamson?

  It doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. If you want to live the lifestyle, then release yourself from the desire to crave the result, but not the process is to guarantee disappointment. To crave the result, but not the process is to guarantee disappointment. Doesn't make sense to continue wanting something if you're not willing to do what it takes to get it. I want fame. Fame sounds great. I want to be a world touring musician. Okay. Do you want to spend 10 years in your bedroom playing guitar? Cause like that, that is the lifestyle.

• 1:35:16Joe Hudson?

  Right.

• 1:35:16Chris Williamson?

  That you need in order to be able to get the life.

• 1:35:18Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. The, the only thing I would add is there is, there is a, there is a

• 1:35:25Joe Hudson?

  great benefit to just being in the want. But not, not, not the want. So let's say I want to be famous, right?

• 1:35:38Joe Hudson?

  If I just feel the feeling of wanting, even I take the fame out of it, but I just feel that feeling of wanting. There's a great benefit to that. Often what's happening is that we feel the want. And then we immediately stop that feeling of wanting and go into, I should do this, I should do this, I should do this, I should do this, I should do this. We're not actually spending time in that feeling of wanting. And if you've spent time in the feeling of wanting, there is often a massive unlock that occurs.

• 1:36:10Joe Hudson?

  So you want a whole bunch of attention. You want to be liked by people. But what happens is you go, I want to be liked by somebody. You have the thought. Maybe you don't even fully admit that you've had the thought to yourself. And then you go, I need to do this. I need to do this. I need to, I should have done this. I should have done this. I shouldn't have done this, which is basically avoiding the feeling of wanting. But if you actually go, oh, I want that and I'm going to stop everything and fully feel what it is to really want somebody's attention. There is a like a massive freedom that can be found in that because what you find is that want, when it's unresisted, is a lot like love.

• 1:36:47Joe Hudson?

  It's a lot like love.

• 1:36:52Chris Williamson?

  Why? Or how? What was it?

• 1:36:54Joe Hudson?

  Instead of that, just see what it's like. Like, think of something that you want, like want your girlfriend to blah, blah, blah, or your mom or blah, blah, blah. And then just feel the wanting without needing anything to be different. And like, look, your system relaxes and opens and.

• 1:37:11Chris Williamson?

  You mentioned the similarity between telling a company the motivation and the context for why something is about to happen and the importance in relationship.

• 1:37:25Chris Williamson?

  This is from you. Every relationship fight boils down to three things. Number one, I don't feel seen. Number two, I'm trying to change you. Number three, I need to defend myself. Shift any one of those and the fight will shift too.

• 1:37:37Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. Yeah. So the, the way I see most fights is I have a theory called the shame hot potato, which is basically.

• 1:37:47Joe Hudson?

  I don't feel good about myself, so I'm going to throw shame at you. And now I don't feel good about myself, so I'm going to throw shame at you. And then we're just like passing the shame back and forth. This person feels like they're always defending themselves. This person feels like they're always defending themselves. But my, this defense feels like an attack to this person and this defense feels like an attack to this person. So it's like, you never do the dishes. Like I am ashamed that I can't keep up with the housework and that I'm keeping score. You don't do the dishes. I feel like I'm defending myself. Look at all the things that I've done. Why aren't you? I feel like you attacked me for not doing the dishes. And back and forth, it just goes like that.

• 1:38:31Joe Hudson?

  And so this person's response is, well, I work all day and you don't, you, you only work 35 hours a week.

• 1:38:39Joe Hudson?

  Oh, I don't work enough. I've been attacked. I'm ashamed and off it goes. And so every single one of those things that you said there, that you read there are an expression of that cycle that's going on.

• 1:38:53Joe Hudson?

  I really see that you need more help in the house and you feel overwhelmed. And I don't want you to feel overwhelmed. Fight's gone. That's the being seen part. Oh, you're right. I don't do the dishes. Fight's gone. I don't need to defend myself. So all, every single thing is just basically unlocking that shame hot potato that's going, which is basically people feeling unloved for who they are and not being able to love themselves for who they are. I just love the phrase that it's like, if you're trying to change somebody, you're not loving them.

• 1:39:29Joe Hudson?

  You're basically saying you need to be different to get my love.

• 1:39:34Joe Hudson?

  And, and that usually typically means for the, for yourself, if you're trying to change somebody is that you're trying to also, there's also some part of yourself that you're not loving.

• 1:39:45Joe Hudson?

  Why?

• 1:39:49Joe Hudson?

  Let's say I, early in the relationship, Tara was very big and I would get embarrassed. And it was not about Tara being big. It was about me trying to be seen as

• 1:40:03Joe Hudson?

  normal, being fit in everywhere, not stand out. It has nothing to do with her. So that part of her that I'm changing is like the part of me wanting attention that I wasn't allowing myself to feel or have.

• 1:40:20Joe Hudson?

  So typically that's the thing and it, and it's, and it's also just like that old phrase. My mom actually had this on needlepoint in the wall. I don't know. Like she needlepointed this phrase. It's just something that happened with American moms in the seventies apparently. And it said, uh, trying to move a mountain or change a man, I'll move a mountain. It's easier.

• 1:40:43Joe Hudson?

  So it's also just, it just hurts a relationship because the person will resist.

• 1:40:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, people don't respond well to being told you need to change.

• 1:40:51Joe Hudson?

  Exactly, including ourselves. And yet we do it to ourselves all the time.

• 1:40:56Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about that.

• 1:40:59Joe Hudson?

  I should work out more. I should stop smoking. I should be more truthful. I should run a bigger business. I should be famous. Like, all those things are the things that you can look back on a decade and haven't changed. The more we're forcing ourselves to change, the less that change happens.

• 1:41:16Chris Williamson?

  Where does change come from if not from motivating ourselves?

• 1:41:22Joe Hudson?

  The same place it comes from when a little kid goes from crawling to walking. It's our wants. It's like being able to listen to and fully feel the want that is in our world. Like, wants are far more efficient fuel than shoulds. Shoulds is a very dirty fuel.

• 1:41:41Joe Hudson?

  It doesn't work very well. It's meant to kind of stop things. You know, shame and shoulds are like, they're meant to stop behaviors. And we use them to motivate ourselves, but they don't work very well. Whereas wants and desire and natural motivation, that just

• 1:41:57Joe Hudson?

  burns. You know, it's that golf guy, I love to practice. He has a want to practice. He wants to play golf. That's the thing. He like, kept his love for playing golf. That's a more efficient fuel than I should play golf every day.

• 1:42:16Joe Hudson?

  If you want to like screw up, like, how many artists do you know who have done this? That they're an art, they're loving their art, they're doing great, they get a job, they start having to do their art and they're like, I should do my art. And then their love for their art goes away.

• 1:42:35Joe Hudson?

  Right. Anything that you tell yourself you should do, the love of it just starts going away.

• 1:42:40Chris Williamson?

  How do you protect yourself? Because there are things that,

• 1:42:46Chris Williamson?

  the difference between knowing this is the next area for growth and progress that I could put myself into.

• 1:42:56Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Chris Williamson?

  That is a zone of proximal development. It's not what I'm doing right now. I don't even know if I want to do this thing because it's kind of new. It's on the, you know, outside of the orbit of what I've done.

• 1:43:06Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:07Chris Williamson?

  How do you know the difference between that and this tyrannical should, you know, this is like part of the journey. It's a good part of progress. It's a, it can be the journey to the next want.

• 1:43:16Joe Hudson?

  Yeah. The crazy thing is that oftentimes even inside of a should, you can look and find the want in it.

• 1:43:23Joe Hudson?

  Right? So I should go to the gym. Well, what's the want? Well, the want is to feel healthy. The want is to be skinny. The want, there's like some want behind it. Okay. You can even take that to the next level. What makes you want to be skinny is I want to be attractive. I want to be loved. Okay, cool. There's actually a real want there. You can find the want that's beneath that should. And then you have a lot more options. Okay, so let's just say it's, I want to feel good. Well, going to the gym is one way to feel good. Playing pickleball is another way to feel good. Hiking a mountain, being in nature is another way to feel good. Being with friends is another way to feel good. So all of a sudden I have these options that open up. And typically when we're in a should, it's a very narrow doorway.

• 1:44:08Joe Hudson?

  So for instance, when I was trying to go from not working out to working out, instead of saying, I should go to the gym, I said, what are 20 things that I really want to experiment with as far as working out goes? And I want, I want to see what pickleball is like. I want to see what salsa dancing is like. And I just, and then I did all those 20 things in like side of a month. And then I found out, wow, I really like pickleball. I like, I don't need to be motivated. I don't, I just, I'm calling people, hey, want to play pickleball? Oh, cool. Now I'm working out and I'm doing something I want to do.

• 1:44:43Joe Hudson?

  So it's just finding the want that's in there and then following it rather than listening to the voice in the head say should and agreeing with it.

• 1:44:52Joe Hudson?

  Because then you're forcing yourself and we don't respond well when people are trying to change us, including us.

• 1:44:57Chris Williamson?

  So much of today's world is focused on efficiency and optimization, but efficiency without awareness is just a faster way to burn out.

• 1:45:07Joe Hudson?

  Yeah, that's coming from Silicon Valley.

• 1:45:10Joe Hudson?

  So what I notice is that people are interested in getting, first of all, efficiency typically in our society in work means faster, it doesn't mean efficient. So typically, like if I have a car, there's a car behind us, the Ferrari, that's not an efficient car, nobody would call that an efficient car, but it's a very fast car. So efficiency, I think, is is better, is more about how much energy you're putting into it to get it done than it is about how quickly you're getting it done. But we really think about it as far as speed goes. And so if we are trying to become quite quicker at everything, right?

• 1:45:52Joe Hudson?

  That that idea of efficiency without knowing why that's the case, then you're just going to burn out. So I'm talking to a CEO yesterday who's interested in having me coach him and we were having the discussion about how it's one fire to the next fire to the next fire to the next fire and how all this has to get done really quickly. And so we spent some time to talk about hiring people and how if you hired four great people, how many fires would be left?

• 1:46:22Joe Hudson?

  Or what makes you not do it? Well, because I have to get this stuff done quickly, I have to be efficient about making sure that we land this contract, we do this thing. I'm like, so you're ignoring the thing that makes you more efficient for the immediate efficiency? And that's what I mean. And he's going to burn out that way, whereas if he took, looks at the bigger efficiency of hiring those people. And so we're just sitting there, basically just getting dopamine fixes. Sent the email, sent the email, sent the email, sent the email. We're not thinking about, can I send that email so I never have to send another email on that topic again? Can I do this task in such a way that I don't have to do 10 more steps, I only have to do five?

• 1:47:04Joe Hudson?

  And I think that's the difference between mastery and and like competence and mastery. Competence is I can get it done effectively. Mastery is I can get it done with very little effort effectively.

• 1:47:17Chris Williamson?

  What are the misconceptions people have about overwhelm? I feel like that's a pretty endemic sensation.

• 1:47:24Joe Hudson?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:25Chris Williamson?

  A lot of people.

• 1:47:26Joe Hudson?

  Typically, it just means emotion, emotions haven't moved. Oftentimes, it also means that there's something that you know needs to be done that you're not doing. And those are typically the two things that create that level of overwhelm. And we think it's because there's so much going on. Oh, my gosh, I got this going on and this going on and this going on. But what's typically happening is I'm really excited. I'm not allowing myself to feel it. I'm really scared. I'm not allowing myself to feel it. I'm really angry. I'm not allowing myself to feel it. And so that, so we're cycling quick. Our minds are cycling quicker and quicker and quicker, as we discussed before. And then on top of that, there's things that I know I should be doing that I'm not doing. And that doesn't mean, that could be, I know I should be resting. I know I should be having that hard conversation. I know I should be firing that person.

• 1:48:13Joe Hudson?

  It doesn't mean always like, I know I should be doing the thing that my voice in my head is saying, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this.

• 1:48:19Chris Williamson?

  Is that why people always feel like they never have enough time?

• 1:48:24Joe Hudson?

  Overwhelm seems to create that as a symptom of lack of time,

• 1:48:29Joe Hudson?

  which is kind of the weirdest thing in the world because we always have the exact amount of time. I was typically, I was just, I was having this realization yesterday and it kind of flipped me out. My life has gotten really busy recently and, and then there was a moment where I had like three days where something canceled and so I had free time. And I found myself doing stuff that I haven't done in months because I, and I was like, why am I doing this? Like, why, why am I like, I got so busy that there was things that I wasn't doing. And now I'm realizing I'm doing them, but they're not necessary because for the last three months, I didn't do them and everything worked out just fine.

• 1:49:11Joe Hudson?

  And so there's this weird phenomenon that happens, which is when we have what we think is a compression of time, it just requires you to do the most important things if you're going to be effective. And so the other way to look at the world is to say, I'm just going to do the most important things at all the time. I'm not going to do the little stuff. So typically, what we're doing is we're saying, I don't want chaos to reign in my life. So I'm going to do a whole bunch of things, get a lot of dopamine hits of doing those little things so that I don't have to feel that chaos. But if you're okay feeling the chaos and you can constantly just focus on doing the most important thing. And one of the things that I've noticed of like super hyper successful CEOs is that they are really good at focusing on the two or three

• 1:49:51Joe Hudson?

  most important things and letting chaos reign everywhere else if necessary. They know that's the thing that if that domino falls, everything else is taken care of. I'm going to spend almost all my time pushing on that domino.

• 1:50:07Chris Williamson?

  I suppose that's a skill to be able to discern.

• 1:50:10Joe Hudson?

  It's a skill to discern it. It's a skill to be able to be okay with the chaos. There's a book called The One Thing, and he talks about this pretty well. He talks about, if you're going to focus on the one thing, then you have to be okay, because some, some part of your world's going to go into chaos. And what I noticed is when people can't handle the chaos, they, they can't focus on the one thing.

• 1:50:34Chris Williamson?

  Joe Hudson, ladies and gentlemen. Joe, you're great. You're so fantastic. I'm

• 1:50:41Chris Williamson?

  saying, intrepidation for what the next few years is going to look like for you, from book to YouTube to the courses to everything else. So I'd strap in if I was you.

• 1:50:50Joe Hudson?

  I, I think you scared me the other day on that one. You got me really good was you were talking about what it's like for you as fame has increased and how the Amazon truck guy will come out and be like, great, great podcast. And he's like, but you said to me, in your world, though, the Amazon truck guy is going to jump out and say, hey, can you coach me real quick?

• 1:51:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. No one comes up, no one comes up to me expecting anything other than just like, dude, loved that episode with Charlie recently. Oh, it's so good to see you talking to Huberman again, or whatever. Whereas with you, it's going to be like, I have this problem, me and my girlfriend, I got this ancestral trauma. Oh, my God, Charlie, please, Charlie, start praying in front of you. Well, look, you know, I couldn't, one of the very good

• 1:51:35Chris Williamson?

  Counter signals that you put out as a part of the time that I've worked with you and everything else is like a I am not your guru type sort of energy.

• 1:51:45Joe Hudson?

  For sure.

• 1:51:46Chris Williamson?

  And I think that's very important because there are a number of people who are without the legitimacy of you claiming to have it. So to have the legitimacy of you claiming not to have it, I think is good when it comes to the bullseye of focused on the mission, not on the person.

• 1:52:04Joe Hudson?

  Also, super, it just doesn't work the other way. Meaning like if the person isn't their own authority, it doesn't work like you can't, you, you, we can't, we can't for a little while, but it doesn't sustain to like give your authority to somebody else. And so if someone's trying to take your, trying to be your authority, it's a really, really, really good sign not to trust them.

• 1:52:26Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Art of accomplishment, YouTube, podcasts, courses, everything else.

• 1:52:33Joe Hudson?

  Thank you.

• 1:52:33Chris Williamson?

  Fuck you, Joe Hudson on Twitter. I appreciate you, man. Until next time.

• 1:52:38Joe Hudson?

  Pleasure, pleasure.

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