Why Nobody Feels Loved Anymore - Sonja Lyubomirsky

Sonja Lyubomirsky is a psychologist, professor, and author. What does it really mean to feel loved? People say "I love you" all the time, but why doesn't it always register? Why can someone love you deeply, yet you still don't feel it? What does real love actually feel like? Expect to learn if there is a commonality between all of the happiness interventions out there, why feeling loved is important, how self-esteem and self-love are related, why having a sharing mindset is so important, what it actually means to be understood, the things that make you happier you might be overlooking, and much more... - Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom - 0:00 Why Do We Need to Feel Loved? 2:51 Don’t Spend Your Life Trying to Be Loveable 5:22 What It Really Means to Feel Loved 6:36 The Biggest Ways Push Love Away 9:39 Do Self-Esteem Interventions Exist? 13:43 Is Romantic Love the Most Important Type of Love? 16:20 The Words More Powerful Than ‘I Love You’ 18:10 Why Receiving Love Is a Skill 19:24 The Importance of a Sharing Mindset 24:35 Are Vulnerable People More Likeable? 30:09 Why Validation Changes Everything 32:54 Is Therapy Speak Helping or Hurting? 36:59 We Need to Ask Deeper Questions 40:03 Why Multiplicity Can Be So Hard 44:07 The Strongest Predictors of Relationship Success 48:51 Should Everything Be Reciprocal? 55:24 The Habits That Make You Feel Loved 58:34 The Most Fascinating Study Sonja Has Conducted 01:01:17 Is This the Best Definition For Introvert and Extrovert? 01:05:23 The Biggest Misconception About Happiness 01:08:56 What Should We Prioritise to Be Happy? 01:11:19 Where to Find Sonja - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  You've been studying happiness for 36 years. Is there a commonality between all of the most effective happiness interventions that you've found?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Yes, well, thank you for aging me, but yes, 36 years. So actually, it was 1998, my lab pioneered happiness interventions. So 98, a long time ago, 20 years ago, Bill Clinton was in the White House. And so I've been doing research on these interventions, testing whether practices like expressing gratitude or doing acts of kindness or being social makes people happier. So interventions are like clinical trials, but instead of testing a vaccine, we're testing like a happiness strategy. And then one day, it finally hit me that what all these interventions had in common is the ones that worked, the reason they worked is because they made us feel more connected to and loved by others, right? So when I write a gratitude letter to my mom, it makes me feel more loved by her, right?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  When I do an act of kindness for a colleague or a friend, it makes me feel closer to him. So almost all happiness practices, maybe not all, like maybe if you run on the beach or meditate, it's not about connection, but almost all of them are about feeling connected and feeling loved.

• 1:04Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:07Speaker 01

  We, I think the human species wouldn't have survived if we did not feel connected and loved, and it's an extremely strong signal. And so what I concluded is the key to happiness is feeling connected, which sounds like a cliche, right? But, and when you think about like in our ancestral past, if we did not feel connected and loved, we wouldn't survive, we wouldn't find mates, like we wouldn't pass on our genes. So it's incredibly important, it's one of the most important tasks of human beings, is to sort of maintain connection.

• 1:36Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so to take a bit of an evolutionary lens.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:40Chris Williamson?

  If you are not belonging to the tribe, mattering to the tribe, understood by the tribe, and a part of that, a human on its own 20,000 years ago, isn't going to last very long. Therefore, it's important for you to get back into connection. It doesn't seem to me, though, that unhappiness necessarily drives people back to connection and love. It can often make people behave in ways, have habits and a demeanor that actually makes them kind of hard to love.

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Right, so it's not really unhappiness that drives them back to connection, it's not feeling loved or feeling lonely, which actually is very, very similar to feeling unloved. I think actually a lonely moment. And a moment where you don't feel loved are almost identical. And they're again, they're a signal to us humans that something's awry, something's amiss. I need to, you know, regain, reconnect that connection. I actually was feeling a little lonely a few weeks ago. And I actually, I don't usually feel lonely. I have lots of friends and family who love me. And I left a message for a friend and she just actually just left me a message back yesterday. And she said, oh, I feel so, so sorry for you, like so, feel so bad. I wish I were there. And she's like, Sonia, feeling lonely is a signal that, you know, you need to kind of put more effort and energy into reconnecting.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  So, um, yeah.

• 2:51Chris Williamson?

  Lots of people spend their entire lives trying to be lovable. Is that the wrong goal entirely?

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Yes, well, there's a part of it that's, that's not a bad thing, which is if you want to be a better person, right? We working on yourself, wonderful, right? But I think the, I think when you don't feel loved, to conclude that, oh, I don't feel loved. I need to make myself more lovable, like I need to sort of somehow broadcast how wonderful I am. Or maybe I need to get richer or more famous or more beautiful to people would love me more. That's the part, that's a myth and it does not actually get you to feel more loved.

• 3:28Chris Williamson?

  Is it a supply of love problem or an acceptance of love problem?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  I think it's an, or not necessarily acceptance, but it's not a supply of love problem. So many of us are loved, but we still don't feel loved. So why is that? Maybe somehow we don't trust it, we don't see it. You know, it's not somehow getting in, you know? I think of it as like a cup of love, you know, this cup of love and you're pouring love, you're showing love to me. But maybe it has a leak in the bottom and the love is sort of leaking out. Or maybe it has a lid, it doesn't have much of a place to get in. That's one way that that happens.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  But okay, so the idea is that when we think, when we think, when we're not love, we think, I need to be, make myself more lovable. And so I sort of show you how wonderful I am. And what does that accomplish? It might lead you to admire me, right? I might impress you. And it happens all the time. Like, here I am, sitting here, talking to you, Chris, and I want you to think that I'm smart and interesting and funny and kind. And I might succeed in impressing you, and I might succeed at you admiring me, but it's not going to forge a connection. So that's not the answer to, to real connection.

• 4:41Chris Williamson?

  What's the difference?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  So I think admiration is like, it's like an influencer has a lot of followers, and they might be admired, but the followers don't really know them. And my co-author of my book, How to Feel Loved, Harry Reese and I, believe that really the key to feeling loved is being known. Because if you don't really know me, if I'm just broadcasting my, my positive qualities, hiding my weaknesses, you don't really know who I am on the inside, what really matters to me. And if you don't really know me, I can't truly ever feel loved. Because I'll always wonder, if he knew me, maybe he wouldn't love me.

• 5:20Chris Williamson?

  That fear of being seen.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:22Chris Williamson?

  What, just definitionally, what does it mean to feel loved?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Feeling loved means that I believe I make a difference in your life, and that I really matter in your life. It really comes down to that. I mean, love, of course, is about affection and care and intertwined goals. But I think it really comes down to, like, I matter to you and you matter to me. And it's much broader, by the way, than, of course, romantic love. And while we talk about feeling loved, we, we're talking about feeling loved at work, by your neighbors, by your family, by your friends. So it's not just about your partner.

• 5:55Chris Williamson?

  Forty percent of people say they don't feel as loved as they want to be by their partner, and nearly two thirds of young men feel that nobody truly knows them.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Isn't that terrible? Yeah. It's really a, it's sad, it's a problem. I actually think those numbers are probably understatements. I bet people, you know, are-

• 6:13Chris Williamson?

  Feel embarrassed about it.

• 6:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. So, yeah, we did a survey expressly for the book, right? Found there was at 70% said they don't feel as loved as they want to be at at least one significant relationship in their life. So it's 70%. And why is that? I think many of them have love, they have connection, they have friends, and somehow, yeah, they're not, they're not, it's not getting it, it's not getting internalized.

• 6:36Chris Williamson?

  What are the big ways, structurally, tactically, literally? What are the big ways that people don't accept love?

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Hmm. Well, I was talking about the cup of love. I think if you're anxiously attached or avoidantly attached, I think that's a huge barrier. Somehow, again, if you're anxious, it's like you're watching for signs of rejection, signs that the person doesn't love you. If you're avoided, maybe you're not even noticing those signs of love. I mean, it could even be, it's funny, we, the idea of the love languages, we actually debunk the idea of the love languages in the book. We have a whole section on it. We didn't do it, someone else did it. But there's, there's a truth to it. I mean, it's a good heuristic that if somehow, like, I actually was dating someone who kept sending me gifts, like, in the mail with, like, little handwritten notes. It was actually really cute and yet didn't do the things that I actually really wanted him to do, which is really, like, saying something to me or, you know, my love, quote,

• 7:28Speaker 01

  love languages are words of affirmation and physical touch.

• 7:32Chris Williamson?

  Well, hang on a second. Have you debunked it? Or are you, like, a subject to it?

• 7:37Speaker 01

  What we've debunked is that there's not just five languages, there's, there's many, and that what we debunked is, not we, other people have debunked the idea that matching in your love language predicts, like, how good or how strong or how stable your relationship is. It does not predict that. It turns out everyone cares about two love languages, words of affirmation and quality of time. It also turns out that the more love languages your partner shows love to you, the better. So it's not about the matching. That's the matching idea that really we've debunked. But I think it's a great heuristic. So I like to talk about it. So I'll bring it in. So it is funny. Like, I'm like, bringing it in and yet I've debunked it. A little.

• 8:14Chris Williamson?

  Pick a direct.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  I know, exactly. But, um, but yeah, anyway, this example, I was dating someone who was sending me gifts and that was his love language. And I just wasn't reading it. Like, I wasn't seeing that. Like, I wasn't seeing that that's an expression of love. So that does happen sometimes when the, you're just not, yeah, you're not taking in whatever the person is doing. Their love language is different from yours.

• 8:36Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 8:38Chris Williamson?

  What else? What are some of the other ways that people are rejecting love, not accepting it?

• 8:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you don't love yourself very much,

• 8:47Speaker 01

  it's hard to see signs of other people's love as genuine. Now, everything, everything we talk about is really much more nuanced than like a simple explanation. So for example, a lot of people think if you don't love yourself, you can't really love other people. I think that's a, that's a myth. And I think Esther Perel actually was a, was someone I heard talking about that. She said, no, you learn to love yourself also in the context of relationships. It's a bidirectional kind of thing.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Having said that, if you really don't love yourself, if you love self-esteem, you're not gonna believe other people's expressions of love. You're not gonna be aware of them. You're not gonna see it as genuine. Furthermore, if you don't love yourself, you literally are gonna be, quote, less lovable, right? People, people, it leaks out, right? That your, your self-image is, is poor and you're not gonna be as likely to receive love. So, um, so I think that's another barrier. Yeah.

• 9:39Chris Williamson?

  What have you learned about building self-esteem and self-love? Because it sounds here like, hey, we're on the receive. But in the context of self-esteem and self-love, we are both the recipient and the giver.

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I would say nothing. Um, that is the one thing, I don't know, I'm an interventionist. I'm an experimental social psychologist. I don't know of any good interventions to increase people's self-esteem.

• 10:01Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Well, interventions in the lab, you know, that have been actually like evidence based. I mean, of course I could.

• 10:07Chris Williamson?

  Well, we can do anything off vibes, right? I can come up with something that sounds good. That's the reason we need you. We need you to test whether or not my vibe coding of an intervention is actually good on it.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  But remember, evidence of or absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, right? So just because there aren't interventions doesn't mean that they wouldn't work. I mean, I could, I could speculate, you know, like based on years of experience and, you know, expertise that, you know, like, for example, just pursuing goals, passions that, that are important to you, you know, and having successes in, in those things and practicing your social skills, like that's going to build your self-esteem. I just don't know any, maybe they're out there, but I don't know any successful interventions that have, that have actually boosted people's self-esteem.

• 10:49Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. I wonder whether, and this is completely, in fact, I'm going to take this off and I'm going to put this one on for the time being.

• 10:55Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 10:55Chris Williamson?

  This is the Bro Scientist hat.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Love it, yeah.

• 10:59Chris Williamson?

  I wonder if part of self-esteem is kind of like an aggregate, a lagging measure aggregate for how your local ecosystem socially and emotionally seems to be feeding back to you in a positive way. That self-esteem can be built up on your own, but you need to be very deluded if you were able to hold self-esteem when the world was giving you no evidence that you should hold on to it, right? Because that would be incredibly maladaptive. You, you are, as a social creature, you're actively ignoring signals that you should pay attention to. If everybody else in the tribe is going, Sonia, you, you can't behave like that. You can't keep behaving like that.

• 11:43Chris Williamson?

  We're not giving you positive reinforcement. We're not giving you love. We're not giving you belonging. You're not mattering. We're not listening. We don't care because you've been an asshole. You're being an asshole and that's maladaptive to the group as, as a whole. Presumably the opposite of that would be, this is good, keep going, more of that. This is helping us. You are a good person. You are contributing. We care about you. And over time, that would help to build up. Now, people can have self-esteem that is self-generated. But again, you need to have nerves of steel or basically no eyes and ears if you're going to ignore the feedback from everybody else.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:18Chris Williamson?

  That's my broad scientist theory.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  No, no, that is actually, and I'm not just flattering you, that it's actually a brilliant idea and you've just reproduced some, you've changed hats, you've just independently developed some really solid theories in psychology about how self-esteem is kind of a measure, like a metric, a meter of what's happening.

• 12:39Chris Williamson?

  It's a little thermostat.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 12:40Chris Williamson?

  It's a thermosociometer, I think is what someone calls it.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  One of my colleagues calls it. We're social animals, right? We don't live in isolation. Man does not live on an island, right? And so that also means, so if I were to build a self-esteem intervention right now, I would say, go out, and this is actually very similar to my happiness interventions, go out and help other people, right? Contribute to community. Well, actually, the three buckets that contribute to back, the three buckets that contribute to happiness are, anything to do with connection, so go and connect with other people, right? Spend time with others, listen, you know, we'll get back, we'll get to that later. Two, contribution to society, to community, right? Helping others, when you help others, you're going to get positive feedback from the world. And then the third is personal growth, right?

• 13:26Speaker 01

  So work on yourself, but it also can be just like learning to garden, learning a new language, going to travel, having experiences that you can talk about to other people that gives you, this gives you esteem, right? If you sit home in your garage all day, right? You're not gonna build that very easily.

• 13:43Chris Williamson?

  Is the person that you're dating the most important relationship for providing this sense of love?

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Well, interesting, in Western society, most people have romantic relationships that actually a far majority end up getting married at some point, I think something like 85% by age 56. I would say for a lot of, a lot of people would report that that is their most important relationship. I personally think that friends are what makes life worth living. That's more of my kind of personal theory, that you get more of it from friends, but it's also a very gender-based theory. So it turns out that men derive more happiness from romantic relationships than women. You probably know this.

• 14:24Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's why men suffer more through divorce, because so much of their social belonging was tied up in the other person, whereas women had distributed it.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  They put all their eggs in one basket, whereas women have, you know, very close friendships, social support networks.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  But again, I think friends are what makes life worth living. And yeah, so really maintain those friendships.

• 14:45Chris Williamson?

  Did you read Friends by Robin Dunbar?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  No, but I know about it. Yeah.

• 14:50Chris Williamson?

  Interesting idea. He talks about, you know, the concentric circles of friendship. And I think he talks about you have room in your life ish for about five, five very close friends, but that a partner takes up two of those slots. I thought that was really interesting to think about, you know, your distributing this around. But what's the most common answer to the question, how many close friends do you have to call on in an emergency is zero. It's not the median, but it's the most common answer. More people have no friends to call on in an emergency than any other number. And I wonder whether people who aren't in a relationship don't realize, hey, you need two additional close friends to compensate for your singleness. And that might help to fill in some of the gaps.

• 15:34Chris Williamson?

  Now, yeah, there is a category of love and intimacy, obviously, that can't be replicated by friendships that is available in an intimate partnership. Right? Obviously, but more isolation means that maybe people are placing even more pressure on romantic relationships to fulfill all of these different needs. And when they're not in a romantic relationship, they're not supplementing that with more friends.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  I mean, I love that idea, the two for one. But we also have the false belief that our partner needs to fulfill all of our needs. So like Eli Finkel's book, The All or Nothing Marriage, right? And so we know this to be true, and yet we still think that, right? That they, yeah, so one person needs to fulfill, you know, sexual, spiritual, emotional, intellectual needs, and that almost never happens. And so, which is why delegating those to friends and family is a great idea.

• 16:29Chris Williamson?

  Are there more important words to hear than I love you?

• 16:32Speaker 01

  Yes. So on Valentine's Day, right? Almost all the cards say, I love you, right? Almost all of them. I would say 99%. And so we had the idea that they should say, maybe it's more important or as important to say, I feel loved by you. You make me feel loved. Which is really more about what they're doing, the gift that they're giving you. Because again, like, that's what matters. You could be loved. If you're, if you are loved, but you don't feel loved, it's like, almost doesn't matter. Like, it's like, you could be beautiful, but you don't feel beautiful. You could be smart and you don't feel smart, then, you know, that's a problem.

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• 17:49Chris Williamson?

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• 18:34Chris Williamson?

  you too would look great. And you go, hey, dude. I've just worked really hard to try and give you something. That's an opportunity for you to feel good and for me to feel good for making you feel good. And now neither of us feel good. So congratulations, but yeah. It makes me think about that, but at a much deeper level, right? The skill of accepting love.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  Right, and absolutely true. And actually, your example is great because I've noticed that as my friends and I get older, we are better at receiving compliments or just sort of receiving, receiving generosity. It's like it does the practice, we practice and practice and practice. And I see that like there's more of a focus on kind of self-development. You know, at least in certain circles and people are really working on themselves. And I see that everywhere. So yeah, I think almost everything can get better with practice, even when it feels really unnatural at first.

• 19:25Chris Williamson?

  Why is having a sharing mindset so important?

• 19:29Speaker 01

  We were talking about how the key to feeling loved is to be known, right? So if you don't know me, I'll never really feel loved by you because right? Because I'll always wonder, would he love me? If he knew me, how do I get to, how do you get to know me? I need to share more of myself. It doesn't have to be, you know, trauma sharing or oversharing. It has to be done at the right pace. And also I need to really have some emotional intelligence, like read the room. So I might like, so I need to share more of myself, right? Not just the highlight reel, but more of myself. But again, not like to spill all my, you know, weaknesses. So, but, but I would want to test the room, right? So when you ask me, how are you? You know, most of the time I say, fine. Maybe I might start with, oh, I had, you know, I was sort of struggling today with something. You know, I had a rough morning and then I look at your reaction and see like,

• 20:14Speaker 01

  are you really interested to hear about my rough morning? And that's kind of the toe in the water. And then you can share more and more. So I just want to like, make sure that people understand that it's not just like oversharing I'm talking about. But it's showing like, who are you? Who do you believe to be on the inside? Like showing more of that, you know, what matters to me? It doesn't have to be something negative. It could just be like my opinion about that movie that maybe everyone likes, but I don't like it. You know, showing something genuine about me. You know, that, yeah, that shows you who I am.

• 20:48Chris Williamson?

  It's an interesting bi-directional relationship here too, right? I think about the UK as well.

• 20:54Chris Williamson?

  There is a good culture of mocking in the UK, especially as you're a kid growing up. There's a piss-taking banter back and forth. One of the interesting things there is if you try to put a slightly orthogonal opinion forward, I'm going to say something that's a little bit different to what most people expect. Typically, that's not met with, oh, that's really interesting. Now, that's, that's, I've never thought about stuff like that before. That's really cool. I'm really glad that you brought that up. It's why we say that that's so strange. And I think if you think about that in the context of a relationship, the fact that this is going back and forth between two people means that the less it is encouraged and received, wow, that thing that you said that was evidently surprising to me,

• 21:39Chris Williamson?

  that might have taken a little bit of effort for you to say, that wasn't received and encouraged in the way that might make you want to continue to do it more. That means that you do it less and are less encouraged to do it, which means that I know you less, which means that I don't get the opportunity to do it.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  It's a vicious cycle. And actually, someone was just telling me like they had one time they were vulnerable and they really got punished for it. They got judged for it. It was used against them. It was one out of a hundred times, and yet they now don't want to reveal anything ever about themselves. And we kind of overgeneralize from that.

• 22:12Chris Williamson?

  It's a formative experience. I mean, how many times? I see this online a lot and I'm aware people use the most extreme examples when they talk on the internet. But how many times do you see some story online about a person who really tried to open up to a partner, to a, to a parent, to a close friend, to a confidant? And it was such a painful experience for them that like that is the formative experience of what opening up, of what asking to be loved, of what asking to be known feels like. And um, yeah, that's, that's ruthless. There's a um.

• 22:48Chris Williamson?

  Rob Henderson, my friend, told me this idea where he said, if you, if you get rejected by one goal, but you've gone up to a hundred, even if you get rejected by a hundred, getting rejected by one is just another drop in the bucket. But if you've only ever gone up to one goal and you get rejected that one time, it's the biggest event in your entire life. And the same thing goes for, hey, maybe this is an example for, if you're going to open up to somebody, make sure that the first one has got a high hit rate of at least not being an asshole to you.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. But bad is stronger than good. So we remember those bad events. It also suggests that maybe parenting, something that parents should emphasize is like to, to model kind of sharing, sharing and listening. And I should say that, you know, we really can't talk about sharing without talking about how the person responds, as you say. And so actually, feeling loved for me, I would argue, starts with curiosity, right? So it starts with really you being curious about me and asking deep questions. And then I know I can share. I feel safe. I feel inspired to share. So I'm not just sharing out of the blue and I'm, I have to guess whether you care or not, or whether it's going to be uncomfortable, or whether you're going to judge me or use it against me. So it really starts with curiosity. And genuine curiosity is so rare.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  Really, when you think about it, how often do people really, really care about what goes on in your inner life? And like, you know, ask you a lot of questions. Anyway, so that's, that's where really I'm coming from is like, someone asks another person a question that you genuinely are interested in getting an answer to, and then you share in response. You don't just kind of, you know, share out of the blue.

• 24:18Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so sharing mindset, stepping into an interaction with the understanding, I'm going to put more of myself across than I might naturally tend to. And that's going to happen, it's going to unfold over time. I'm not going to trauma dump immediately. And what, what else just on the sharing mindset? Are there any other sort of pitfalls that people need to be aware of?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like go slow. Well, the vulnerability paradox, which we're kind of hitting on without naming it. So vulnerability paradox is that we think being vulnerable will lead other people to like us less. On average, people like us more.

• 24:53Chris Williamson?

  Interesting. Why do you think that's the case?

• 24:56Speaker 01

  So, so we think, yeah, we're, we're so focused on the bad. Like, I reveal some kind of, I don't know, like, bad habit I have. And the other, and other people, and we, I think it's so terrible. People will judge me and I'm embarrassed. And other people just think it's human, or maybe they have the same habit. Actually, something happened to me a few weeks ago where I really, I totally bombed giving a talk. Like, I, I usually never do, but I just completely blanked out. And I was just standing there on stage and I'm like, I don't know what comes next. I literally said, I don't know what, what to say. And it was mortifying. And I can't tell you how many people came up to me later and were like, Sonia, like, I, I, I loved it. Like, it just made you more human. You know, they, so the thing that I thought was mortifying, other people thought was like acute human failure.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, that's, that was an un-.

• 25:43Chris Williamson?

  Are you familiar, are you familiar with the pratfall effect? Do you know this?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:47Chris Williamson?

  So it's when somebody gets all of the answers right in a test, but they drop their pencils on the way up to hand their paper in. And it's a, a British study, the word prat. I don't know whether the word prat has come over to America. Anyway, um, we, we like people who show their human side, uh, which is, which is strange, right? Because there's an assumption that we just want everybody to be as perfect as possible.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  There's a great line from a famous screenwriter who said, if you want to write a character that no one connects with, make them perfect. Alright, so we actually don't want perfection because it's not human, it's not interesting, it's not complex.

• 26:23Chris Williamson?

  I want to show you a video. Jared, can you pull up that video of that gymnastics girl? So there's this, there's a, look at this, just wa- watch, watch this video.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Hey, hey.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  You are brave.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  I am brave. Please stop saying brave.

• 27:01Speaker 03

  You are brave. You do things that no one else has ever done. You are doing skills that are insane to even adults. You have more courage in your little body than a thousand people have in all of their bodies combined. You are mine, and I am yours. Nothing you can do will ever make me stop loving you. Nothing you will do will ever cause me to give up on you. I'm going to let you know when I think you're making a bad choice. I am not going to let you talk down on yourself. I'm not going to let you give up on yourself. And I'm not gonna let you quit because something might be scary.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  You can quit if you truly don't love something. But you cannot quit because something might scare you. Okay? You are not failing me. And if I have made you feel like you are not good enough or that I don't care about you, and I have not done my job as a father. I love you very much, okay? And I don't think that you're bad. I don't ever want you to think that I wouldn't be there and do whatever it takes to make sure that you can be successful doing whatever you want to do. Because at the end of the day, this is something you have told me you want to do.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  Now, if you truly do not love cheer, guess what? You don't have to do cheer. If you truly love doing cheer, then yes, I'm going to let you know when I think you are making a silly decision because you don't think you're good enough or because you think something is too hard or too scary. The only limits that you have are the limits that you put on yourself. If you keep telling yourself you are incapable of doing something, guess what? You will prevent yourself from doing something. If you tell yourself that you can achieve something, even if it doesn't happen right away, guess what you will eventually end up doing? Achieving it. But we have to be able to be strong here, okay? To make this do what we are capable of doing.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  It starts with this.

• 29:14Chris Williamson?

  What do you think of when you see that?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Okay, a couple of things. Well, it was beautiful that he could go underneath what her fear was not just she's afraid of, you know, doing this this flip, but she's afraid that if she fails that maybe her dad won't love her, which is really beautiful. Like he gets under the fear. And I do have one critique. That was beautiful, obviously, what he said. But I do have one critique of this dad.

• 29:40Chris Williamson?

  Well, hey, if anyone is open to feedback, something tells me that it's Anthony, the dad.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  And it is that the what what therapist, I'm not a therapist. Well, therapist says that you want to first validate what she says, right? She kept saying, I'm scared. And he's like, no, you're not scared. And and I guess what you're supposed to do is kind of not supposed to do, right? Ideally, you want to kind of validate, like, I understand you feel scared right now, or something like that. And then go and talk about and give the speech that you get.

• 30:06Chris Williamson?

  A bit of validation in the emotions.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. First validate.

• 30:09Chris Williamson?

  Is that important, do you think, when receiving love and trying to give it as well?

• 30:13Speaker 01

  It's so interesting. So one thing we talk about, right? Let's say you're sharing more of yourself because you want to feel more loved. And so you are sharing more of yourself. And then I'm listening. So listening is so critical. Most of us are not very good listeners. And so what we do when we're trying to listen, turns out, the one study showed 25% of the time when we're listening, our mind is wandering. And I bet it's higher than that. Because we have this inner chatter, we're like distracted, or we're mostly we're rehearsing what we want to say next, right? How I'm going to respond to you. And and we also want to sort of fix or give advice, which I do all the time, instead of just simply making the person feel heard, which is what we're just talking about, and just validate it, right? Which is like, wow, that must have been really hard. Or that must

• 30:56Speaker 01

  have been really inspiring. You know, how did that feel? And again, that sounds like therapy talk, but you can put in your own words. I do think the pendulum has swung a little too far on like validating over fixing. You know that nail in the head video that's so popular? The woman who has this nail in the head? Oh, you've got to watch this. So she has a nail in the head and she's like, oh, I'm in such pain and all my, all my sweaters are shredding. And the guy's like, well, you have this nail in your head. And, and she's like, and basically the point of the video is she just wants to be heard. And then once he says, I'm so sorry, it must be so painful for you to have a nail in your head. And then she's like, ah, right? And that's the point of the video, whereas he keeps trying to give her advice, you should take the nail out of your head.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  And then you won't feel so, so much in pain and you won't shred your sweaters. And I just think like, yeah, it's like the, again, the pendulum has swung so far, like, cause sometimes people kind of need, like fucking need advice, right? They need to be told, take the nail out of the head. But I, I agree that at first you want to validate and then give advice later.

• 31:59Chris Williamson?

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• 32:40Chris Williamson?

  Right now you can get a free sample pack of Element's most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below. Or heading to drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. That's drinklmnt.com slash modern wisdom. I understand what you mean about therapy speak, maybe going mainstream to an extent where validation is given when it shouldn't be. A lot of people do need some tough love. I don't know whether good therapy speak has been widespread yet, though. I get the sense that in a lot of these conversations, it's still quite performative. It's people saying the thing that they've heard is kind of cool. Well, it's really important like to just follow your body and to just do what feels good for you.

• 33:23Chris Williamson?

  As opposed to, I'm going to sit in the muck with you. I'm going to sit in the discomfort, you know, yeah, the validation thing.

• 33:32Chris Williamson?

  Good point. I'm sure Anthony will take it on board. But he's sitting, he's sitting in the emotion with his daughter, right? He's holding that space. It's unfortunate that holding space has kind of been memified into.

• 33:44Speaker 01

  I hate that phrase.

• 33:45Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, but it's the, what it, what it means is so good. It's just a shame that the phrase has become a cliche of itself in a way. But.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Well, there's, there's one kind of therapist speak that I think is, is so amazing and effective. And it's nonviolent communication, right? It's using I statements, right? So, so I feel hurt when you do this as opposed to, why do you always do this? You know, what's wrong with you? And so, um, and that, yeah, I, it's, that is just so effective. Has been shown to be effective in so many contexts. And people are doing it more. Again, instead of accusing the other person, it's about you. So like, it's not like you're doing this. It's like, I feel this way when, when I see this or it's my understanding. Or the story I'm telling myself is that you're, um, and then you, and then you ask, and then you have a request. So, um, I'm a big believer in, in nonviolent communication.

• 34:34Chris Williamson?

  And the TLDR of that is I statements, not you statements.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a whole process to it, but sort of I feel this when you, you know, so let's say, yeah, like, let's say the person never cleaning up, you know, I feel, you know, I, I don't know, overburdened. When you don't wash the dishes, when you do this, um, you know, I'd like to, whatever I talk about. I'd like to understand what's going on. Maybe you're really stressed out at work. You know, and then you have a, and the hard part is the request. It's like, what do you actually, it's easier to criticize. It's harder to kind of ask. The ask is the hard part, you know?

• 35:08Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 35:09Speaker 01

  I would, it's, it's vulnerable, um, to sort of ask, to say, I, I, yeah, it's hard to ask. That's so funny. It's almost obvious to me why, maybe it's not so obvious. I would love for us to come up with an agreement and about how you split, how we split chores.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I statements.

• 35:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I, I guess criticizing somebody else puts the ball in their court. It also makes your displeasure known and.

• 35:39Chris Williamson?

  Like uh absconds you of having to take responsibility. But putting yourself forward and going, I would really like it if you did that. Is another opportunity for this person to hurt you. Right? It's like, I'm gonna request this thing. Not only have you done this thing that pissed me off that I've now had to tell you about. I've had to tell you that it's hurt me. But I'm now going to like, offer you this thing.

• 36:04Chris Williamson?

  That you could reject this request.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  That's why it's, that's why it's vulnerable. Because you're risking rejection.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  And that's life. Sometimes you'll be rejected.

• 36:14Chris Williamson?

  What's your advice to people who, when they get to the precipice of vulnerability? Of exposing a little bit more of themselves and they feel like they should. That. That sort of fear comes up and the tightness in the chest and the ringing in the ears. What is your advice to them in that moment?

• 36:34Speaker 01

  I mean, part of my advice is just to go for it. Take the leap. So many great things in life involve taking risks, almost everything, right? Like having a baby, you know, going for that job that, you know, moving to a different city. But before they, they take that leap, I would go slow, right? So maybe the first time, just. You, yeah. Reveal something smaller. And then take us, yeah, take us baby steps, I would say.

• 36:59Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so listening to learn.

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:01Chris Williamson?

  People are not just playing the game of tennis, waiting to hit the ball back. Genuine curiosity, what else?

• 37:10Speaker 01

  We talked about sharing, so curiosity, listening, so, so if you start with curiosity, like, I'm really interested in you. And curiosity, by the way, has an enthusiasm component, right? Like, I'm really, I'm excited to hear what you have to say. That's why it's such a gift, right? Like, how often does that happen when someone's so excited? Charismatic people are really good at this, right? That's why we flock to them, because they're so excited to hear what you have to say. So it starts with curiosity, then you tell, so I'm curious about you. Then you start sharing. Which is hard. And, but I'm, I'm validating and I'm supporting your sharing by like really listening and asking questions. So question asking. Is not talked about or even studied that much. So important. We don't ask each other enough questions. So research shows that we think that especially asking deep questions, if I ask you a deep question, I'll think, ah.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  He's gonna think I'm prying, that I'm being a little nosey. And sometimes that happens, but on average, people crave to be seen, right? They want to be known. I have an example for my daughter, who has a roommate who's having a lot of problems. And her, her family is coming over. They were crying. There were all these sort of sessions. And they're speaking Spanish. So she didn't know, my daughter didn't know what they were saying. So I said to my daughter, why don't you talk to your roommate and ask her what's going on? And she said, oh, mom, I couldn't do that. She'll think I'm crying. And I think, you know, she could be right. But I think most likely she's wrong, that this roommate probably would feel really supported and loved if she, if she was asked about it.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  But we usually think, yeah, so we don't ask enough questions. So ask your friends, colleagues and partners those deep questions.

• 38:48Chris Williamson?

  Okay, and that's radical curiosity?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  That's part of radical curiosity and part of listening, because it's, listening is a back and forth. And then there's two more mindsets we talk about. One is called open heart. And it's almost like an obvious one, you know? I, I think open heart is basically warmth, kindness, believing in the other person, wanting them to be happy, wanting their dreams to come true. It's, I say it's obvious because I would think most stable relationships have that mindset. It's the other mindsets that often people don't necessarily have. So I actually, we sent the book to a few early readers. And two of my male friends said they, they're like, we love the book, but they broke up with their girlfriends after reading the book. And it turned, and we were, I was really surprised because I thought it was prescriptive, like, oh, do this,

• 39:35Speaker 01

  listen better, you know, show curiosity. But they actually used it to hold a mirror to their relationships. So they had the open heart. They had kindness and warmth and belief in the other person. But one person said, she's not really sharing and I'm not really sharing. And another person said, my girlfriend is no longer curious about my work. She never asks about it. And so those are really important and need to be worked on. The open heart, I think, is one that's, I would hope most relationships already have.

• 40:02Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the, but the last one is my favorite. The last mindset. It's called multiplicity. So the term multiplicity, I'm told, comes from trauma research. The idea, if you have a trauma, it doesn't define you. It's like you're a quilt of many, many things. Of course, you had the trauma, you can't take it away, but it doesn't define you. They were all, we're all multi, you know, the Walt Whitman quote, you know, I am multitudes. I contain multitudes. So I'm like a quilt of both positive and negative qualities and traits and behaviors. Right. So sometimes I'm kind and other times I'm selfish. Sometimes I'm loyal and sometimes I'm narcissistic. And we're all like that, right? And so to use that multiplicity lens to turn on the other person. So when you're revealing your story and something, you say something I might disapprove of,

• 40:46Speaker 01

  makes me uncomfortable, I use a multiplicity lens and see you as a human in all of your complexity. And what's interesting about that is that when I tell this to people, everyone nods and they're like, oh yeah, of course. And then when you actually give specific examples, it's really hard, right? People will say, oh, what a jerk, right? What an asshole, like he did that or she did that. So that's a really hard one.

• 41:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I, um, I think it's difficult for, so few people want to sit in a discomfort zone, a tough emotion, and their solution is to just fix it. To just say, hey, if I just come up with the solution to this thing, we don't need to worry about it anymore.

• 41:31Speaker 01

  What will be the solution to, so someone reveals something negative about them?

• 41:36Chris Williamson?

  About themselves? I don't want you to feel that way anymore. Allow me to minimize it. Allow me to tell you what you can do. Like, um, this person at work keeps mistreating me in this way. And every time that they do, it makes me feel really small and I'm worried that they don't like me. And I think that I don't really belong there anymore. Well, she's a bitch anyway, and you shouldn't do it. And you're like, hey, dude, you're not, you're not in this with me. What I want to hear from you is, damn, that must be, that must be really hard to go through.

• 42:12Chris Williamson?

  What's that been like over the last couple of months? Or what are you worried this means? Or what's the emotion just after that happens? Like, oh, okay, like, someone cares. Someone cares enough to do that. And, uh, yeah, I just think people's.

• 42:31Chris Williamson?

  It comes from two directions. It comes from, I don't want this person who I care about to suffer anymore. And also, I don't want to be in this discomfort anymore. And both of those things together can be wrapped up in a, I'll just fix it, minimize it, or make it go away.

• 42:49Speaker 01

  I had a coach once, and a friend did something that I was really upset about. And so I'm talking to the coach, and I'm doing that. I'm minimizing, I'm thinking, oh, well, because of this and this reason, they must have done it. And the coach said, Sonia, just stop it right now. And he said, skip right over the rumination and the justification, the rationalization, and right onto sadness. Go right, go straight to sadness, which is just be sad that your friend did this. Right, which is kind of like what you're saying, sort of sit in it, and then you can, you know, rationalize. But, but the rationalization, like, you know, there's a fine line between kind of condoning, justifying, and compassion. Right? When is it compassion where you see someone and they do something kind of terrible? And you can see, like, this happened once with my friends,

• 43:34Speaker 01

  where this guy said something really terrible in a text. And we're like, oh, what a jerk. And one of my friends said, you know, when I read that text, I see the little boy inside of him. Or I see the teenage boy who used to be rejected by girls. And so, whatever, he got triggered. It's not excusing or condoning or justifying, but it's having compassion. And I don't know, it really helps me to see people in this sort of more complex light. Again, it doesn't mean I want to hang out with him. But I, again, I think that compassion is really helpful.

• 44:07Chris Williamson?

  What do you think are the things in a relationship that makes people feel unloved the most?

• 44:14Speaker 01

  I think when people kind of feel a little like, I guess, when they start to feel invisible and the other person stops noticing, well, stops asking questions, or we talked about that, stops being curious about you. We often stop being curious about the people we've known the longest, right? Because we think, oh, I know everything about them. And of course, you don't, because every day we're having new fears and dreams and self doubts, right, and regrets. So stopping being curious. But the other thing is, yeah, just kind of feeling, yeah, like that you're invisible. They don't, they're not noticing the little things. You know, when we asked people what makes them feel loved, a lot of them were those little things like, like, I remember being at a party and friends would bring me like a piece of fruit or a water

• 44:54Speaker 01

  or a blanket. And before I even knew I wanted those things, they're like, Sonia, you, you need this water, you need a blanket because you seem cold. And I'm like, oh, I didn't even know I needed a blanket. And so like, when people, when you feel loved is when people, you, you feel loved when people are doing, they're noticing you and they're noticing things that you need before even need, before you even realize you need them. So those little things when, and when your partner, your best friend sort of stops noticing those things, you, you don't feel loved.

• 45:22Chris Williamson?

  Have you looked at the, whatever the strongest predictors are of long-term relationship satisfaction?

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Hmm. So I partnered with a love scientist to write this book because I'm really more of a happiness scientist. I don't think I can answer this question, but I will tell you a really interesting finding that we do talk about, which is, how do you respond to good versus bad news in a relationship? Right? You come home and you say, hey, honey, I got laid off. Or, you know, something bad happened, my car, the car broke down. And everyone kind of knows how to respond to bad news or sort of something bad that happened. But what if you come home and you say, hi, honey, I got a new job offer in New York. Right? So it turns out how we respond to good news is a better predictor of relationship duration. Then how do you respond to bad news? Because it's so, it's not easy, right? You got a job offer in New York. I mean, it could be threatening. Does that mean we have to move?

• 46:14Speaker 01

  Does that mean you're going to work harder? So you don't have time to, you know, with the kids? Maybe you might even be envious that like my career isn't going as well as yours. And so what research shows is the, the best, you know, well, the, the, the reaction that is predictive of relationship duration is truly celebrating good news with your partner, right? Being like, that's so amazing, being enthusiastic, right? That's so amazing. Tell me what happened. How did, you know, what did they say? You know, how did you feel?

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Maybe later you can deal with some of the insecurities that come out of that, right? But so, so anyway, that is one factor that predicts relationship strength is, is celebrating. It's called capitalizing, celebrating good things.

• 46:54Chris Williamson?

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• 47:38Chris Williamson?

  Best of all, you can join for free. Pay nothing for the brand new Whoop 5.0 strap and you get your first month for free. And there's a 30 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it for free, try it for free. If you don't like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30 day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/ModernWisdom. That's join.whoop.com/ModernWisdom. It's interesting how, how much easier it is to sort of care for somebody who's struggling than it is to celebrate somebody who's winning in many ways.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. And you know what? How many people, the list of people that you share your wins with.

• 48:21Speaker 01

  Is a small list. Is that right? Right, because we we learn not to be boastful. Right, and I remember like I would come home and tell my family about some some great thing that happened. Maybe an award I got. And my kids would say, oh, Mom, you're boasting. And I'm like, if I can't share this with my family, like, who can I share with?

• 48:36Chris Williamson?

  What the fuck is going on?

• 48:37Speaker 01

  And so we're we've sort of trained like not to boast. And yet, of course, like, we want to celebrate those things. Right, so and so, um, yeah, and so we we don't have as much practice, both sharing and I guess reacting to to those wins.

• 48:51Chris Williamson?

  What about in the relationship if you're doing everything right? And the other person just doesn't show it in return?

• 48:59Speaker 01

  Great question. And I get the ask that question a lot where, let's say, I'm doing all the right things. So I'm I'm sharing, I'm listening, I'm curious. I am seeing you with a multiplicity lens. I'm I'm excited with I'm I'm listening with warmth and acceptance. And the other person just does not respond. They don't return, they don't reciprocate. They're not curious about you, they're not listening, they're not sharing. What do you do? So I'm not a therapist. I mean, therapists are very like, you know, they'll never sort of say exactly directly what they really think. I think, right? Bluntly, and I'll just say bluntly, maybe you need to walk away. Maybe you've made a poor choice. If it's a family member, yeah, probably you can't walk away. But just accept that you're not going to feel as loved as you want to feel by this person. I mean, obviously, keep trying, but if you've kept trying and it's not working.

• 49:45Chris Williamson?

  Well, so much of it, I think, the discontent that people feel in situations like this is,

• 49:52Chris Williamson?

  I I feel an incompatibility here and I'm continuing to push up against it. And you know how when you see a bridge and a bridge twists like this? It's because one side is going in one direction and another isn't moving with it. You just did that, it's just a bridge that's rotating. Right, but the tension occurs in the flexing like this. And I wonder how many people, if you were to just say, hey, dude, this just isn't working and you're continuing to try and put this square peg into a round hole, is where the discomfort comes from. And if it's, you got

• 50:24Chris Williamson?

  an uncle that you just cannot resonate with, or a younger brother who just you and him are like different species. So, OK, guess what? Thanksgiving and Christmas, you're going to see each other. You wish him happy birthday, you keep on top of it, but.

• 50:37Chris Williamson?

  The tension and the pain is coming from you wanting a thing which is not accessible. And I don't think it's your job in life to drown trying to keep people afloat who refuse to swim.

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Exactly. Although, you know, you try curiosity, by the way, with the brother or the uncle, right? Like, why, why do you believe that thing that, you know, you think?

• 50:55Chris Williamson?

  Shut up, Sonia. I don't, I don't need to hear that.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Well, if that's right, if that's the response consistently, and I, I completely agree with you. But is there's this tension, because I hear all this advice, like, you know, people in our society, in our individualistic society, they, they kind of break up too often, you know, they kind of end relationships too often. Like, especially on dating apps, or, you know, you're like, oh, this person isn't working for me. I'm just gonna go to the next person. So there's sort of this advice you hear that maybe we don't work hard enough to sort of fix our differences. And then there's all those people, and I'm thinking romantic relationships, and they're together forever, and they're just clearly not right for each other, and they're clearly unhappy. And I feel, I really feel for them, right? Like, life is too short.

• 51:39Speaker 01

  So I don't know. I don't know what's, I guess both can be true at the same time.

• 51:41Chris Williamson?

  Well, it is absolutely that both can be true. I've got this idea called advice hyper responders. So advice doesn't distribute evenly. It distributes more like alcohol than medicine. The people who could really benefit from loosening up and having a drink remain abstinent. While the people that are already drinking too much, they take it on board. So for instance, the person who has the fear, I am emotionally inadequate, will absorb the message, you should open up about your emotions wholesale, because it confirms their fear that they already weren't good at doing emotions. And that will cause them not to rectify the imbalance, but to over-exaggerate something that already exists. Another one of the person who permanently feels like they're not working hard enough

• 52:25Chris Williamson?

  will take on the David Goggins, Jocka Willink message of, just get up at 4:30 a.m. You've got to crush it, dude, as opposed to going, I actually need to listen to the advice that tells people to chill out a little bit more. Meanwhile, the place I first saw this was after Me Too. So Me Too told guys, don't be pushy with women. And the dudes that were blowing through boundaries didn't pay any attention to it. Meanwhile, nervous guys that could do with a little bit more of a pushing hand. They decide, they were like, I knew I was too much already. I already thought I had this. And this is how. Advice lands in groups that already are moving in that direction.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Wait, what are you calling this?

• 53:02Chris Williamson?

  Advice hyper responders. So you throw advice down and the people who already do it, pick it up first. It often doesn't correct over, it doesn't correct imbalances. It just exaggerates predispositions. And I think it's true. And that's how you end up in situations like this. How is it the case that people are both cycling through relationships too quickly and staying in ones that they shouldn't for too long? Well, it's because-

• 53:26Speaker 01

  Different kinds of people.

• 53:28Chris Williamson?

  Bingo.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:28Chris Williamson?

  Bingo. And then when you give a piece of advice, this is the thing that's like interesting and pernicious about it, is that typically one side of the fence sounds like a more pro-social and noble piece of advice. So for instance, the idea, work harder and ignore your emotions, sounds upward aiming. It is believing in the little guy. It's grassroots. It's spit and sawdust. It's zero to hero. That tends to be more popular to talk about online, even if it increases the disposition of the type A person that can never switch off. The idea of, don't let good relationships fall away. You should work through them and try hard. Sounds pro-social in a world of atomized transactional swipe dating.

• 54:11Chris Williamson?

  But it worsens the situation for the people who already burden themselves way too much with psychological strength that makes them powerful in the boardroom, but silent at the kitchen dinner table.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Okay, but let's talk about, I think one concept that can kind of unite what you're talking about is the idea of, is the idea of dosage, right? So Aristotle's golden mean, right? So there's a, there's an optimal dosage for everything. Like there's somewhere in the middle, there's an optimal way, like amount of time you should stay together before you break up, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm a huge believer in dosage. I think it applies to almost everything, right? And so in terms of happiness research, right? Can you do too much acts of kindness? Absolutely, right? You can be too kind to others. You can neglect yourself. You can do too little. Almost everything should be done in moderation, including moderation, of course. So that's, that's how I think about things is sort of in the optimal dosage. But sometimes you're talking about things that sometimes aren't the same continuum, right?

• 55:08Speaker 01

  It has to be on the same continuum, the same spectrum to, to figure out what the optimum dosage is.

• 55:13Chris Williamson?

  Well, ideally, people, people are going to take some of the advice from the opposite side of the spectrum. And unfortunately, people don't usually want to hear that. So yeah, it's it's an interesting one. Okay, so tactically, what are the most powerful habits for implementing this?

• 55:30Speaker 01

  The more I think about feeling loved and these mindsets, the more I think they apply to almost everything. You know, like when you study something, you see it everywhere. But seriously, like it applies to reducing polarization in our society, right? When you're curious and really listening to people who are on the other side of the political spectrum. It actually, research has shown it's reduced, it reduces prejudice, it reduces differences. And so I think out of all, everything I've talked about. I think curiosity and listening are probably the two habits that can really change your life. Like if we all became better listeners, more curious. Research shows that if you're a leader or a manager or a supervisor. And if you're curious and really listening to your employees or your followers.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  They're going to be more productive, they're going to be more engaged, they're going to be less likely to quit. Pretty amazing, right? It's not that hard to implement. And then sharing, sharing too, there's a study that came out of maybe a year ago. That had people who are literally like wearing different hats on the political spectrum, no pun intended, sharing. And so I might share about like, I'm struggling with my son. And the guy in the other hat is sharing, oh, you know, I'm also struggling with my son. That reduced prejudice and reduced polarization, just sharing more of your humanity with someone who's really different from you. So, but yeah, but I will, I would stick with those three, but especially curiosity and listening.

• 56:54Chris Williamson?

  Okay. What's something, if you were to say this technique? Or this habit, this one thing that you can do tomorrow? That would improve your ability to feel loved, what would it be?

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Well, first of all, have a conversation with the person that you want to feel loved by. And actually, this is my number one kind of happiness tip. If you want to be happier tomorrow, have a 15 minute conversation with someone, at least 15 minutes. And then when you're having the conversation, share, listen, show curiosity, listen with acceptance and warmth. When you think about relationships, they're really a series of conversations. Even when you're not talking, right? You're communicating. That's how I think about relationships. There are a series of conversations. And so when you think about, I want to feel more loved, it seems very overwhelming. Like, what do I do? I need to make myself more lovable. I need to change your mind and get you to love me more. But really, all you have to do is change the next conversation or change the next series of conversations.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  So that would be my number one tip, is show up differently in your next conversation with that person by sharing more, listening more, showing curiosity with warmth and acceptance.

• 58:03Chris Williamson?

  So you're saying that life is just one big podcast? That's your main, that's the main take?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely. But also, I'm kind of biased because I'm a talker. So my, my oldest daughter once said to me, "Mom, you talk so much, I can't think." So I do like to talk, but, but, and also in our culture, where, where actually there's some research on this, you know, individualist cultures are more talking cultures. Collectivist cultures, like Asian cultures, are more listening cultures. But, you know, we can adapt these mindsets. You know, you don't have to talk a mile a minute. You know, it's just, it's just communication that matters.

• 58:35Chris Williamson?

  Across all of the studies that you've been a part of, what's your favorite one? Like, what's, what's the most fun or interesting or novel study that you've done?

• 58:44Speaker 01

  I think my favorite one is we asked people to act more extroverted for a week. So we said, to both introverts and extroverts, we said, for the next week, act more extroverted. We didn't actually use the word extroverted because it has connotations in our culture. I think we said, you know, sociable, energetic, talkative. And then for the week after, we asked people to act more introverted. Again, using different words like deliberate and quiet, and vice versa. And we were shocked at what we found. So we found the biggest effects we'd ever found in any of our interventions, people, in the week that people acted more extroverted, they were so much happier. And sort of everything improved. During the introversion week, surprisingly, sometimes people actually got less happy

• 59:28Speaker 01

  or kind of no change. And the second surprise was that this effect was the same for introverts and extroverts.

• 59:35Chris Williamson?

  So even people who were already extroverted, increasing their extroversion improved their happiness?

• 59:40Speaker 01

  But well, it's interesting that you thought that was the surprising part. No, no, the introversion is the surprising part, I think, to me. That the introverts, you know, Susan Cain wrote this great book, right, called Quiet. Love the book and I'm a big fan of introversion. I think there's a lot of benefits to being introverted. But she writes that, you know, introverts get exhausted by trying to act social. I don't, I actually don't quite believe it. Like, the evidence is now showing that it's actually the extroverts that get exhausted by social behavior. It makes sense because they're social much more of the time.

• 1:00:09Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the introverts also got happier acting extroverted.

• 1:00:13Chris Williamson?

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• 1:00:57Chris Williamson?

  That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com-modernwisdom using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. What do you make of the? Where you get your energy from on your own versus with other people is the best definition of introversion versus extroversion. Does this still hold true or has this been replication crisis?

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  So I love the definition, again, that Susan Cain made popular.

• 1:01:32Chris Williamson?

  It's a sexy definition, but if it's inaccurate, then we need new ones.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  I believe that the evidence is not really holding up. And actually, Nick Epley, who wrote a book called A Little More Social, great book, talks about this. I think that the evidence is not quite there. So I don't, maybe, again, absence of evidence is an evidence of absence. But the studies, I think there's only with one exception, studies are showing that introverts that are asked to act more social do not feel depleted or exhausted. But again, maybe we need more research.

• 1:02:02Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. It wouldn't surprise me. I think a lot of the time what introverts are doing is finding a home base or finding a situation that feels comfortable and familiar to them. But you can get detrained out of your social muscle an awful lot. Like, if you don't use it, you lose it. And if you don't get into the rhythm of seeing, for instance, we have every Friday, and this is one of the best, this is one of the two best things, that, three best things, actually, that are, from a habit perspective, that I've done. First one is sleeping with my phone outside of my bedroom. Second one is when I think about a friend that I haven't spoken to in a while, I just text them immediately. And I'm like, hey, man, just thinking of you. Hope everything's good, or whatever. But

• 1:02:46Chris Williamson?

  the third one, we've got a standing dinner reservation at 6:00 PM every Friday. And it's just an open invite for between six and eight people. And no matter how good or bad your week's been, you always turn up. And if you're in town, you're there. Sometimes people bring new friends. Sometimes people, it's just you and it's been me and one other guy. And the fact that you've got that, it means, some people have got more introverted days and more extroverted days. On my most introverted day, I'm still at dinner, and I leave, and I'm like, That was fine. That was worth it.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  I love it. I love it. I love it. Very important point that you just raised, right? So, so in our, in these studies, when we asked, when we ask introverts to be extroverted, we don't ask them to go to a party and be the life of the party. They can choose how to be extroverted, right? So, an introvert is gonna do different things. So, they might call up a friend, they might chat a little bit more during lunch, you know? I was super shy when I was young and when I was, when I was in college.

• 1:03:44Chris Williamson?

  I can't imagine that.

• 1:03:45Speaker 01

  And I really was. My parents told me that before age 10, I did not speak to other adults other than teachers and, and family members. And then I really kind of pushed through it. But, okay, here's one, one, one way I did it in college, you know, we had sections. And I forced myself to say one thing in each section. And it was terrifying. Like, I, it was really, really hard. But then the more you do it, you know? So, you know, that's the kind of thing that introvert might say. Like, at lunch, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to say one more thing.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  But I, I love your three habits. I'm gonna add one more to it that one of my friends introduced me. Is when you meet someone or you're talking to someone, they say, oh, let's get together. You know, this happens all the time. And what happens is you don't get together. You know, you start your texts and then, you know, you get busy. And then you're like, oh, how about next week? And that doesn't work out. He said, you do not leave that interaction without making a firm plan to get together. You know, a specific time and place and date. And that, that really works.

• 1:04:43Chris Williamson?

  I heard a really Machiavellian way to work out if someone actually wants to hang out with you. If you propose a date and they cancel and you say, tell me when you want to reschedule for, and they don't reschedule. It was basically reverse engineering whether or not this person is genuinely busy or just doesn't like you. I don't know whether, I think you probably need, you're reading into that a little bit much. People are just busy, but I thought, I thought that was an interesting one.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  I like that, tell me when you wanna reschedule for.

• 1:05:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, just tell me when. Like, hey, especially if you recancel, if you cancel, dude. Like, it's on you, okay? You fucked it. I was gonna go.

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  You know, there's a New Yorker cartoon and it's like, how about never? Is never good for you?

• 1:05:19Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, but that's what someone says if they don't come up with a, a date or a time.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:05:23Chris Williamson?

  What's something about happiness that almost everyone believes but is wrong?

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  Well, the one that's kind of boring is that people think, well, okay, maybe it's not boring. I have a book about this called The Myth of Happiness. I'll be happy when, I'll be happy when I have a baby. I'll be happy when I move to New York. I'll be happy when I get that tech job I wanted to get. I'll be happy when, whatever. And the truth is, you are happy when those things happen. But then what happens is, it's called hedonic adaptation. We adapt to that new goal. And this is, by the way, humans probably would never progress if we didn't have adaptation, because then we would just kind of sit on the mountain and do nothing. But we always want more. And you bring your same self with you when you, to the new relationship, or to the new city, or to the new job.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  And so, sort of putting all your eggs in changing your life circumstances to be happier. Now, there's a caveat. If you live in a war zone, if you're poor, if you're in an abusive relationship, absolutely, changing your circumstances is going to make you happier. But if you're kind of normal, like, you know, comfortable circumstances, then changing them is going to make you happy temporarily.

• 1:06:33Chris Williamson?

  Is there a way to hack hedonic adaptation?

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  Yes, through variety, novelty, surprise, and gratitude. Right? So, we adapt to constant stimuli, right? So, when things are the same, like, you buy a new car. At first, you're like, I love this new car. And then, you know, for the eighth time, you sit in the car, you don't notice the car anymore, that it's new. And so, novelty, variety, sort of maybe, yeah, so you have novel, create novel circumstances. So, actually, a relationship is a better example. We don't adapt to our new spouse. So, you do different things with them. I mean, it seems obvious, right? You do exciting activities with them, you learn new things with them, you see new friends. I mean, people are endlessly fascinating and dynamic, right? So, they're not constant. And then surprise, open yourself up to surprises, right? So, if you go to a lot of, I don't know, social events,

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  there's going to be things that are surprising, right? If you take risks, there'll be things that are surprising. I should say surprise in a positive, not a negative way. And then finally, gratitude is the antidote to hedonic adaptation.

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  When you think about it, when you adapt to something, you start taking things for granted. And when you're grateful, it's like you don't take it for granted anymore, right? So like if I'm grateful for my health, I'm not taking my health for granted. So truly expressing gratitude, but it's not easy, right? Like, and how often can you sort of express gratitude for your car or even for your spouse? But I am a big-

• 1:07:54Chris Williamson?

  Especially given that the stimuli is the same.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:58Chris Williamson?

  So you're expressing gratitude for something you've experienced previously.

• 1:08:00Speaker 01

  Exactly. You know, something we don't adapt to is a view. A view, like a beautiful view from your home.

• 1:08:08Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Is that interesting? So actually, I have a beautiful view. I did it and I got it for a reason, like I think it's worth paying for the view. And no one really knows why. I think one reason is novelty and variety. Well, variety, right? It's always changing with the weather, with the seasons. I also think there's an evolutionary reason that humans are hardwired to like to look at things, to have a view, right? Because you can see like, I don't know, friends and enemies.

• 1:08:37Chris Williamson?

  Big visitors.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  And also, by the way, water and mountains. We are hardwired to wanna see water and mountains for kind of obvious reasons that they they're gonna help us survive and thrive. And so that's why views of water and mountains are most like Vancouver is supposed to be one of the most beautiful cities. Water and mountains together.

• 1:08:53Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Okay. Let's say that you met a twenty year old today. What would you tell them to prioritize if they wanted the highest probability of being happy when they were fifty?

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  Relationships.

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Relationships.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Relationships, but but it's really everything we were talking about today. Like really put effort into maintaining relationships, learn social skills. I wish we could take classes in college and high school, right? Everyone can learn some social skills, how to have a conversation. So have conversations, spend time with people, don't spend time alone, you know, in the garage on a screen, right? Because it's not gonna give you practice with those social skills. So relationships in person, ideally, face to face, like you said, like those dinners. Make a habit of it. Learn to listen, be curious and share.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, those would be my top.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  My top habits.

• 1:09:52Chris Williamson?

  Okay, well, I, speaking of which.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:09:56Chris Williamson?

  I have something for you.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. Can I open it?

• 1:09:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you can.

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  It's a card, it's a card with my name on it.

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  It's a thank you card. Okay.

• 1:10:15Speaker 01

  Thank you. I love Arthur, by the way.

• 1:10:17Chris Williamson?

  He's a man.

• 1:10:17Speaker 01

  Mentions Arthur Brooks. We were in an almost plane crash together. I have a fun story about that.

• 1:10:23Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  We were in a plane and it was gonna crash and I was sitting next to him, I started holding his hand. And he's very confident. So it turns out it's very good to be, if you want to be in a plane crash.

• 1:10:33Chris Williamson?

  Arthur's about as Christian as you can come. So he was probably hoping it crashed.

• 1:10:36Speaker 01

  Well, haha, no, no, no. He was just, he is very, it's very useful to be, yeah, sitting next to you. A very confident, very masculine, Christian person. You know, I'm literally holding his hand and he's like, Sonia, is it gonna be okay? Everything is gonna be okay. And then later on, he's like, Sonia, I didn't realize, because we had lost, an engine actually fell out of the plane.

• 1:10:58Chris Williamson?

  What?

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  Was it India?

• 1:10:59Chris Williamson?

  Where the fuck were you?

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  I know, we were in India, in the middle of nowhere. He's like, Sonia, I didn't realize how bad the situation was.

• 1:11:06Chris Williamson?

  Anyway, you've got tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people to write gratitude letters. And I don't know whether anyone's done it to you on a podcast. So I figured that it would be nice.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  Not on a podcast. I certainly have beautiful letters from my students. I love them.

• 1:11:17Chris Williamson?

  Consider me a student.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:11:19Chris Williamson?

  Sonia Lyubomirsky, ladies and gentlemen. Where should people go to check out everything that's going on?

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  How to feel love.com. It's just the title of my book, how to feel love.com. And we also, by the way, we have a quiz where you can take and it shows, it will tell you just five minutes. It will tell you which mindset is your strongest mindset and which is your weakest mindset. And I think it could be very useful.

• 1:11:39Chris Williamson?

  Heck yeah. Sonia, I appreciate you.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:11:41Chris Williamson?

  All right. See you next time, everyone. Bye.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, good. Oh, my God. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, my God.

• 1:11:46Speaker 04

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