Whose Fault Was The Attack On Trump? - Former CIA Agent Mike Baker

An emergency episode in the wake of this past weekend. No ads, no edits — just a raw, unfiltered conversation with former Central Intelligence Agency officer and security expert Mike Baker. - 00:00 Whose Fault Was This? 08:16 Was There Less Secret Service Than Usual? 15:37 What an Internal Investigation Would Look Like 21:33 Will Anyone Get Fired From This? 26:33 The Crucial Role That X Played 34:42 Will People View Trump More Favourably? 39:03 Everything We Know About the Shooter 44:51 Mike’s Thoughts on JD Vance 51:18 What World Leaders Had to Say 59:36 Should Trump Hire Private Security? 1:06:59 How “That Photo” of Trump Was Taken on Saturday 1:11:17 Where to Find Mike - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

• 0:00Speaker 1

  How big of an intelligence failure was this?

• 0:04Speaker 0

  Well, it's you think you have to think of it more as a logistical failure as opposed to an intelligence failure. This was a breakdown in what should be very standard security protocols. And look, the Secret Service does that very well, but clearly, right? And you always have to, I'd caveat this with one thing. You have to always wait for an investigation to finish, right? They're currently in the middle of their own investigation as to what the hell happened. And obviously, as soon as this happens, everybody on social media is an executive protection expert, right? So everybody's talking about exactly how this happened. Well, well, you know, at the I so I think it's important not to get out over your skis.

• 0:49Speaker 0

  But in a situation like this, clearly it would be insane to say that there weren't uh failures, there weren't breakdowns here. And even people with no experience can look at this and say, I'm sorry, how did you not have somebody up on top of a roof that had line of sight to the stage to the rally event? Uh and so typically, look, when when something like this happens, and I I've done countless, you know, advanced plannings and security assessments and risk and threat assessments, and and and typically when something happens like this, it's not one thing, right? It's it's a it's a series of mistakes or missteps that compound, and then you end up with this this goat rope that never should have happened.

• 1:35Speaker 0

  Um so they're doing an investigation. Uh Congress, of course, has called for an investigation. I wouldn't expect anything to come from that. Um, because Washington, D.C. is where all investigations go to die. And uh, but the uh the the bureaus is involved, uh, Secret Service obviously doing their own hot wash, uh, and they sit underneath the Department of Homeland Security. You know, so if DHS does a review, fine. But there's so much video footage of this, right? And it happened in real time with so many people watching and so many different angles that I think in this case, unlike sometimes, sometimes you get investigations of of it of a of an event and you don't get much transparency, right? Because internally they're trying to figure out okay, how do we improve this?

• 2:24Speaker 0

  Well, you don't want to necessarily talk about all that activities because you're informing people who might have nefarious intent. But here it was it was clear for everyone to see that there was a significant number of issues and problems.

• 2:40Speaker 1

  Who's responsibility? Who does the book ultimately stop with when we're talking about this homeland security, Secret Service, local law enforcement?

• 2:50Speaker 0

  Well, I think what you're gonna find likely is first of all, in terms of who has primacy on the ground, it's a Secret Service, right? So they established a security perimeter, and then according to at least early reports and what what Secret Service is saying is then they designated local law enforcement as having control outside that designated security zone, which included the building where the shooter uh took up position. But that's you know, ultimately it's the Secret Service's responsibility. So they should have obviously said, okay, so what are you doing in relation to those buildings that have line of sight? And if local law enforcement said, well, we've got a we've got a couple of unarmed officers that are patrolling the ground and you know, interacting with the attendees down on the ground, then you'd say, okay, well, how about you give me a state trooper or one of your local officers up on that rooftop and that one over there, any building, right?

• 3:50Speaker 0

  Uh that's got line of sight. Uh, and you post somebody up there, just cover it down. That's Secret Service's ultimate responsibility, even if you know, theoretically, okay, on paper, this area over here is under the control of local authorities. So there is a procedural problem, there's a command and control problem, there's a communications problem during the course of this rally. I think you'll also find there was some uh command and control issues in terms of the ability for the sniper or the counter-sniper team on site, and they had a couple of them up there, um to act, right? And there was probably, I don't know this. I'm speculating, right? But I'm speculating based on experience from past events that you know, there may have been a lag time in getting the you know, the the go no go figured out

• 4:40Speaker 1

  in terms of

• 4:41Speaker 0

  taking a

• 4:41Speaker 1

  shot on the on the target.

• 4:44Speaker 0

  Uh there may have been problems at the top of Secret Service in terms of what did they allow for as a security package for former President Trump.

• 4:53Speaker 1

  When you say that, you mean the uh number and quality of the people that were on the ground?

• 4:58Speaker 0

  Yeah, you've got a you kind of got a standard, you know, former president security package uh because they get coverage for life after they they finish their their time. And you could easily argue that perhaps the package for Trump, given that he's now the presumptive nominee for the November election, that clearly he draws a lot of heat should have been a lot of it. Should have been

• 5:28Speaker 1

  beefed up.

• 5:29Speaker 0

  Should have been beefed up. And look, also, look, hey, it was under the Trump administration when you know we tagged uh Suleimani and the Iranians and their various proxies are still very upset about that. And we know that they've been looking at various opportunities to try to target individuals they feel responsible. So there were a variety of reasons why you could look and go, yeah, the package for for for former President Trump needs to be more robust than say what we're would normally allocate. And so that may be, I don't know, I'm not saying it is. I'm just saying that may be an issue where now you've got more of a of a of a procedural problem with management, right? Um and then you've got the whole other issue of just general discourse.

• 6:15Speaker 0

  If you demonize somebody on either side and call them Hitler um fascist, you know, intent on destroying democracy, um uh a threat to the nation, as President Biden's referred to him even the day before the shooting, um, you're probably you know, inciting some irrational person who you know may not be able to process all that as hyperbole, right? Yeah, they're gonna take it literally.

• 6:40Speaker 1

  This is a point that Tulsi Gabbard made where she said that how can you expect someone to not try and stop Hitler if you keep calling them Hitler? Would you not go back in time and try and kill Hitler? And if literally Hitler, there was a magazine that had him looking like the a number of magazines that have had him basically in the same um post a style that Adolf Hitler did in the past, you know, how many more analogies do you need to draw? And it's one of these things where until the repercussions and the consequences of doing that become kinetic, everyone thinks that it's just a LOP. Well, Trump's bombastic, he's gregarious, he says crazy things. We need to push back with the same sort of technology that he uses, which is words and imagery. Uh, and then someone takes it up a notch.

• 7:25Speaker 0

  Yeah, look, I mean, it's it's it's clear, and people always say, ah, it's whataboutism, but it's clear it's it's a problem on both sides, right? On the on the edges of both sides, there's all this rhetoric and hyperbole. So there's no doubt about that. But you're right. Look, if the new republican, that was one of the magazines that had the sort of this propaganda poster of Trump as Hitler, um, they're throwing these things out there. And I I think rational people look at that and go, okay, well, man, that's over the top. It's rhetoric, hyperbole. I I get it. You guys are using this as a campaign strategy, but there are a lot of people out there who aren't going to process it that way. Yeah. And disappear down these rabbit holes. So there's a lot of layers here. So when you say who's responsible, I, you know, it depends on at what altitude.

• 8:11Speaker 0

  Level

• 8:11Speaker 1

  of magnification you want to look at it from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where does the why does the domino begin? One of the things that I did read was that there was a lot of homeland security contractors on site as opposed to Secret Service agents that there was a more heavy reliance on local law enforcement than you would have done typically. I'm going to guess that this is uh the package that uh security detail packages you mentioned, uh just being more diluted than it should be. You have some talent, and some of the talent, I guess, is questionable based on the video footage. Um, but then you also have this sort of uh the outer regions, which are maybe not even more as competent, and more of that was done by contractors, and more of that was done by local law enforcement than typical.

• 8:54Speaker 0

  Yeah, look, the election season, any election season, right? But particularly now when everything's so heated and both sides have been lobbing hand grenades at each other for quite some time. It's a difficult time for Secret Service, right? They're just there's they're stretched, you know, uh thin because there's so much to do. And they and their resources are working constantly. So yes, they draw on, but they typically draw on, even you know, when when it's not an election season, they draw on local authorities. Uh and there was a significant presence at the rally of uh Butler County uh police. And um, you know, there's gonna be some other issues about, you know, there was an encounter between one of those police officers who, you know, attempted to go up and interact with the shooter and then you know, um didn't when the shooter pointed a gun at him.

• 9:42Speaker 0

  Uh and then you know, the the the firing started shortly thereafter. But look, there's a real breakdown there, right? Because um you've got a moment where obviously this guy has enough time to go to the building, try to get up to the top of the building to interact. Where are the comms with the with the you know, counter snipers? Team saying, I'm

• 10:02Speaker 1

  going up on

• 10:02Speaker 0

  the top of the building to interact with somebody who apparently has a weapon because lots of people on the ground saw him and alerted the authorities. So there's there's again, as I mentioned, it's it's never just one thing. It's a series of problems, usually that contribute to a security breakdown.

• 10:17Speaker 1

  It's interesting. I I get what you mean about uh during an election cycle, there's more people, more places, more checks need to be done. But it's not like you don't know this. Right. You know reliably it's going to happen in four years' time and four years after that and four years after that. So all of this could have been prepared for in advance, whether it's training, whether it's recruitment, whether it's whatever you need in terms of staffing. I remember reading not so long ago as well, after Trump's indictment, conviction, whatever it is, uh, that there'd been some suggestion to completely rescind the security detail from him, or at the very least to dial it back as some kind of recompense that he needed to pay for now being a felon. Exactly exactly. Yeah, that was that was a

• 11:03Speaker 0

  move in in Congress by uh uh I think it was uh Congressman uh Jeffreys, maybe I'm I I don't want to get caught with the wrong name, but um one or a handful had I think kind of floated the idea that will probably somebody who's been convicted shouldn't have Secret Service protection. It's an asinine idea. I mean, it was a completely asinine idea because he's still a former president and he's still the presumptive nominee, but they were trying to score some political points, right? And that's that's been part of the problem. You get you're getting a lot of dysfunctional and irrational behavior because um, you know, the an element within the Democrat Party has this this uh I I don't even have to describe that the hatred for Trump.

• 11:49Speaker 0

  But then again, on the on the right side on the extreme right, obviously you've got this same sort of writer right that goes and and and demonizes the Democrats and Biden and all this. It just uh it's not a it's not a good place for the nation to be, obviously, given what can happen and what we saw happen on Saturday.

• 12:09Speaker 1

  It's I at least at the moment a little bit asymmetric that only one side has control over how much protection an ex-president gets. And uh, you know, it's so it just seems to me it it it seems to me like the amount of protection should be proportionate to the potential threat. And you know, regardless of whether you like or don't like Trump, he's a pretty big target. I mean, you know, you you don't need to do much to Biden to cause him to fall over, but you know, Trump's a a much much larger target.

• 12:40Speaker 0

  Okay, I'm gonna let that one go. Um but uh yeah, no, you're not you're not wrong. Uh and that's why you do uh risk and threat assessments on a constant basis, right? Because the risks, the threats, they change. Um they can increase, they can decrease, and you're always doing that. Whether you're talking about executive protection uh, you know, for a political candidate, whether you're talking about you know what sort of level of protection you provide to a facility, or it doesn't matter. So you're absolutely right, and they should have been looking at this. Now they they did say that they there has been some comment that the Secret Service did uh heavy up the uh the security package to some degree back in June, I believe, for for Trump. Um, but it's only now that they've um approved uh Secret Service protection for Robert F.

• 13:27Speaker 0

  Kennedy, right? And you know, that's an indication that really what the Democrats wanted was they just wanted him to go away. They didn't want they almost didn't want to acknowledge that Kennedy was a candidate out there.

• 13:39Speaker 1

  Dude, so I've been to I went to dinner with an R with RFK at a friend's house maybe about a year ago. Then I went to uh a rally thing of his in Austin about six months ago, and then I went to another meetup with him about two months ago. And at each one of those, he's made it very, very plain. I have no security detail. I have no uh extra special care from the government, despite the fact that I come from the most assassinated family in American political history.

• 14:10Speaker 0

  Yeah, it was insane. And it has been, and I but I do think it was a it was essentially for a very uh political reason, which was we don't want to acknowledge that he's a candidate. We just want him to go away. I mean, you know, giving

• 14:22Speaker 1

  giving him the detail is almost like a stamp of approval in some way. This is a legitimate person. Yeah, it's it's it's it's kind of that formalizing of his candidacy in a way,

• 14:30Speaker 0

  right? That's a lot of people process it that way. They see the Secret Service detail and they imagine, you know, okay, he's a presidential candidate, right? And they were so afraid of him taking oxygen out of the room. Um, but now as a result of what happened on Saturday, they've they've uh reviewed, I assume they're gonna, you know, increase the package for uh President Trump. They've approved a package for for uh Robert F. Kennedy. Um, you know, they've been looking at I'm I'm in Milwaukee where they have the Republican National Convention. They're you know, they immediately got on the ground here and started reviewing uh the security. Go figure. I mean, that should have been done. Look, this is not there's there's there's a methodology here, right? And you can have little bits and pieces that uh that change based on what the event is, but the standard practice, the standard protocols really don't change that much.

• 15:22Speaker 0

  And so more than anything, there were there was a command and control and a communications breakdown between Secret Service and and local authorities that I would I I believe an investigation is gonna prove contributed mightily to what happened on Saturday. Aaron Powell

• 15:37Speaker 1

  What will the process from here internally be to investigate? I imagine it's just going to be a fucking nightmare to try and work out who's culpable, what happened, how's this going to occur, whilst also doing the investigation, which requires resources from the very thing that you're trying to now beef up given the failure that just occurred during a time when you need them more than ever, but also their time is trying to be split working out what the fuck happened.

• 16:02Speaker 0

  Yeah. Well, that yeah, and you raise a really good point. And that's where that's where a congressional investigation can really kind of muck up the works get in the way because you know, they you know, they they get out there and they start sucking up oxygen that really needs to be spent uh you know doing operations. But uh look, it's important. Uh right after after this go rope, uh, you know, internally a Secret Service was doing a hot wash. Um what's this

• 16:27Speaker 1

  mean? Stop using these words. What do you mean? Well, yeah,

• 16:29Speaker 0

  I mean, they would they're basically just uh doing a uh after action review of you know what happened immediately in the aftermath of this thing. Um but there's a lot of moving parts, as you pointed out. Look, it's there's DHS personnel, there's the local law enforcement. Um it's not a good sign that so soon after this event, there's already some finger pointing going on saying, well, that was their zone, uh, not ours. Butler County saying, well, that's you know, it doesn't matter. Secret Service has primacy, so they should, you know, be telling us what to do in a sense. So that's not necessarily a good indication. Um, but you know, I think this thing has got to play out in uh in public uh in part because you know, government agencies, whether it's the Secret Service or the Bureau, the CIA, whatever, they you know, they they've lost a lot of credibility, um, which is kind of a painful thing to admit.

• 17:25Speaker 0

  Um, but they've lost a lot of credibility over the recent past. And so, you know, one of those things, one of those ways I think you build back some level of trust is to be more transparent. And and again, they don't have anything to lose because everybody was starting at zero. Yeah, they're starting. Well, I meant I meant because everybody was watching, they can afford to be more transparent, but but okay, I take your point. Yeah.

• 17:53Speaker 1

  Uh so you know, going into the rest of this year, do you think these sorts of threats are over, or are there more serious risks to come as we get toward the presidential election?

• 18:02Speaker 0

  Uh well, the the threat's not over for sure. You know, um that never goes away, right? You never get this down to zero. That's not how the game is played. So they have to approach every event, whether it's the RNC happening outside, or whether it's um any other campaign rally, uh, the DNC, which will be taking place in Chicago. Uh, they've got to approach every event in the same fashion, right? And yes, there'll be more under the spotlight, you know, from the public and and from you know their own agencies and the various people involved, but and that's a good thing, right? It it kind of refocuses the mind. Um, you know, I'm not saying that the event on Saturday was a good thing. I'm just saying that it's going to one of the uh one of the one of the end results will be everyone's gonna be a little bit more on their game.

• 18:52Speaker 0

  Um because they're gonna be reminded in a very terrible way what's at stake. They you could argue they shouldn't have to be reminded, but you know, you do these events and you do these events, and the thing about executive protection is it can be a grind. Mentally, it can be a real grind, right? Why? Well, you're you're standing out at outside a door, you know, uh Secret Service details, there's a lot of hurry up and wait, you know, it's it can be kind of mind numbing in a way, right? There's you know, then you got a movement, okay. Fine, now I gotta go do another advance, and I'm doing the advance, and there's there's a lot of routine, a lot of you know, route, which you know, can it can be a bit again, it can be a bit mind numbing.

• 19:37Speaker 1

  Um which inevitably causes people to pay less attention, which then allows small errors to to kick up. Yeah, I was speaking to uh Tim Kennedy. I got him to break down the body language of the uh counter sniper uh from the Secret Service that was on the roof, and he's you know, looking at he's coming up off his glass, he's going back down, then he flinches, and then he goes back down again. And you know. So he Tim's assessment was he thought that was a person who'd never been in a firefight before. Um that that was someone who potentially hadn't seen combat action. But another thing to consider is that this isn't training. You haven't just rocked up cat full of caffeine, you know, on the range with your buddy, that's your spotter, and I know when I'm going to need to shoot. You've been there for how many hours sat up there doing this thing, you know, that sort of endurance um and as it continues to go on.

• 20:27Speaker 1

  But again, that it seems to me that all of that can be fixed just by more volume and higher quality personnel. You know, if you've got someone that's doing the night shift, don't make them do the day shift. You know, can have sufficient resources that you don't need to to drain everyone like that.

• 20:44Speaker 0

  Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. You've got to have you've got to have sufficient staffing and and you know, again, talking about how much of a grind it can be. Uh it's not the sort of business where you can just, you know, you know, just work through people until they're exhausted, right? You've got people have to be at a at an optimum level um all the time. And so that requires you to be able to work through a number of shifts uh of rotations, and so you have to have those resources. But look, I uh and and and training, you know, you've got it, you've got to have constant training. Um and and that costs money and time. And so sometimes those things get kicked aside. I don't I'm not saying they did. I'm just saying that, you know, sometimes in in in the world of government, you know, certain things can be pushed aside and in favor of other things that aren't really as operationally beneficial.

• 21:32Speaker 1

  So likely do you think it is that the heads of Homeland Security or the Secret Service uh going to end up getting fired or disciplined for this?

• 21:43Speaker 0

  Well, I don't think DHS uh myorcus, I don't think isn't going anywhere. He's he seems to be uh, you know, coded in Teflon um because you know, you could argue he should have been fired for the you know, for the the lack of management of the US southern border for the past three years, but I don't think he's going anywhere. Uh Kimberly Cheadle over at at uh Secret Service, look, she you know, she's been there what almost 30 years, maybe longer. She was, you know, an agent and a supervising agent for 27 years, finished up, then went to I I forget uh Pepsi, I think, where she was global security director, and then she got called in. She had worked on vice president Biden's detail years and years ago. And so that who knows, maybe that was part of the connection, but she came back in to run the Secret Service.

• 22:32Speaker 0

  Is she gonna be kicked out? I don't think so. Um Washington DC is not typically a place where people get fired. Uh

• 22:40Speaker 1

  why is that just nepotism and people know people and people know things and you scratch my back?

• 22:45Speaker 0

  Yeah, I think you know, look, uh, you know, people people get reassigned and lower levels, you know. If if there's if if things go sideways, um, typically, you know, that that shit rolls downhill, and uh, so you may get you know, mid-level officers or agents, you know, they get reassigned or put on ice, but typically people don't, you know, at higher levels, you know, they're not expected to pay the price. I don't know why. Uh, but it's a little bit like um, it's a little bit like this problem with with the civil discourse and people talking about how we have to turn the temperature down, right? Well, that requires self-awareness and it requires the willingness to accept some responsibility for where we got to now, right? Because they were part of the problem.

• 23:31Speaker 0

  But I don't think politicians necessarily um or political appointees tend to be, you know, loaded for bear with self-awareness or willingness to accept responsibility.

• 23:41Speaker 1

  What do you think happens to the political discourse moving forward from here? How do you think it changes or doesn't?

• 23:48Speaker 0

  Yeah I I think give it another uh I don't know, 15 minutes. Um, and we're gonna be right back. We're gonna revert to the mean. I have no doubt uh that the there will be a a short period of time, uh, including I I think, including Trump's uh nominating speech at the RNC. I think you know, that's going to be more uh dialed back than people would imagine

• 24:14Speaker 1

  coming from Trump. He said that he re he wrote a a brand new one for it.

• 24:19Speaker 0

  Yeah, and I'm sure he did. Uh look, he's got look, it's I don't think you can go through that an experience like that and not have some moment of reflection, right? Um now whether it lasts, whether he can change his stripes, I don't know. Whether the Democrats can change their stripes, who knows? You know, look, they they ran a campaign based on Trump is a fascist and he's gonna destroy democracy. And it was working for them, right? It was energizing at least their their base, and and I think they felt like that's the narrative they were gonna run with for the next few months. I don't think I don't think either side's really going to dial it back significantly for any period of time. So yes, there'll be this, there'll be a moment, but then I think everyone's gonna kind of revert back to the normal jump back in their trenches and you know, we'll be right back to that.

• 25:08Speaker 1

  Biden said, or at least the Dems said that they'd turned off their campaign ads for a little while, sort of a show of a mark of respect. I imagine that if you'd kept running those, there'd be some in there that are absolutely tone deaf for a guy that just got shot. Um but yeah, there is a big question. Can you say that Trump is Hitler one day and then the next day wish him well, given that he was just shot. It does seem

• 25:34Speaker 0

  Yeah, I know. I know. Uh he's blowing with the wind. Thank God he was only crazed. Um yeah, I it's it's a it's a yeah, it's a really good question. But I think what they're counting on is the attention span of the uh uh Americans, maybe. Um, everybody's so busy just trying to get by and feed their families and do their work and kind of whatever, and they're all staring at TikTok anyway. Um so I I think they honestly think, yeah, sure, we can we can get away with this incredible pivot from he's going to terminate the constitution and and take away all your rights, and he's you know, the biggest threat to the nation and and then turn around and go, well, we sure I talked to Donald and I told him I was drunk.

• 26:23Speaker 1

  So

• 26:24Speaker 0

  I but I think they feel like you know they can get away with it because they done it. So

• 26:29Speaker 1

  yeah, yeah. Selective amnesia of the entire populace. So uh I'm glad that you brought up TikTok, your favorite uh topic of discussion. I this is the first time that I've observed actually I didn't even do this with January 6th, because with January 6th, I actually watched mostly Fox News CNN coverage. I was watching things be streamed live. Um but on Saturday, this happened just as I was going for dinner here in Montana, and I for the first time realized just how important X Twitter is as a social media. It was a genuine utility for everybody that wanted to know what was going on, and I wasn't I I'm not going to Facebook to find out this information. I'm not going to TikTok to find out this information.

• 27:15Speaker 1

  I'm not going to Instagram to find out this information. I'm not going to the mainstream media to find out this information, like mostly peaceful but fiery assassination attempt from CNN or whatever the headline was. Yeah. There were some

• 27:30Speaker 0

  headlines. There were some headlines that he was pulled from the rally because he fell down. And Secret Service

• 27:36Speaker 1

  interrupts Trump rally.

• 27:37Speaker 0

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, there was there was a New York Times uh article just today that said, you know, that referred to the the assassination attempt as uh that somebody shot at the president during a rally. And you think, okay, so I I I agree with you. You know, uh I think X has kind of proven its its usefulness in this event over the weekend. Yeah, I was I was uh I I spent probably more time monitoring what was happening there than I think pretty much anything else. Although I was I was perfecting a new TikTok dance, so I had to that

• 28:15Speaker 1

  wasn't easy. But it's gonna be a hit. I'll tell you what else I didn't see much of. Um I didn't see much sort of crazy misinformation, uh wild accusations. I haven't seen much that people have really needed to row back. Now I is that the um is that the benefit of the platform, or is that simply just because of what users were talking about? Um, you know, you you you can't promote a tweet which lies about something that somebody doesn't actually post. You can only actually promulgate whatever messages people say. Um but yeah, I was I was really impressed. I was looking at X and going, holy fuck, like we need this thing. And I've not I've I've not had that sense really before. It's just like, oh, it's you know, if you've got truth social on one side and you've got X kind of more toward the middle, and then you've got threads on the other side, you know, it's just it's just another one of these, but it yeah, it made me think uh differently, I think.

• 29:12Speaker 0

  Yeah, I think the it it takes a little while for the crazy to come out, right? So I have seen some conspiracy theories that you know, this was an inside job, you know, and and uh, you know, and then of course all the all the you know, the sort of the armchair executive protection specialists, you know, talking about exactly you know how what went wrong uh five minutes after the event, right? I think, okay, well, at least lest the dust settle a little bit um before let's swap

• 29:38Speaker 1

  the blood up off the off the stage

• 29:39Speaker 0

  canvas before might be might be good. But no, that did the look, the the imagery was amazing. Um the like him or hate him, right? And there's a lot of people on both sides of that for Trump, but you have to you have to think, good God, right? I mean, he the fact that he stood up, had the wherewithal to kind of like face the crowd. You know, give him that indication that he was fine and he was, you know. I mean, that's those instincts, right? You can't teach that, right? That's that's uh kind of in there somewhere. And and so I think that was that was amazing, right? Again, people who hate him are gonna say it was terrible. He shouldn't have like shook his fist at I did hear CNN was upset with him because he shook his fist at the crowd and said fight, and they were like, Well, that seems inappropriate.

• 30:26Speaker 1

  Stoking, he's stoking a wartime rhetoric.

• 30:28Speaker 0

  Oh, he just got shot. He just got shot. They're upset because he's like shaking his fist and he's then they're like, Well, that's that's that's not a

• 30:37Speaker 1

  inappropriate inappropriate to get aggressive when you've been when you've just been shot. Yeah, yeah. Dude, I I said this to Tim. Look, I have kind of I I sort of respect Trump in that I find him uh an interesting orator and his sort of staying power has been has been impressive. But I've never before said that I admired him. Uh, you know, I I don't know whether it's because he's kind of like a WWE character, which he actually also happened to be briefly for a little while. Um he's super gregarious and he's out there and he's all of these things. And he's like older and he is from a different culture and all of these things, lots and lots and lots of things, right? And I saw that video and then I saw that imagery, and I was like, that is fucking badass.

• 31:26Speaker 1

  That is a you there is no amount of media training or uh exactly sort of top down dictatorial rhetoric building and image sort of um promoting that you can do to make being shot then standing up and putting your fist in the air and going fight, fight, fight. That is him. That's his character. Yeah. That is his character. We saw everything stripped back. Who is the guy? Like, if you want to know who someone is, shoot them in the ear, right? Well, well, let's say,

• 31:56Speaker 0

  okay, now for you for those of you watching at home. That's that's you know, let's let's step back on that guidance. But um, kids. Yeah, uh, no, but I I take your point. And also the the the striking thing is just the the the contrast, right, between that and and what we had been talking about on nonstop, right? On Friday and Thursday and Wednesday before that, which was

• 32:24Speaker 1

  legalness, fragility,

• 32:25Speaker 0

  feebleness, the mental acuity issues for Biden. And so that that contrast I think is going to hit really hard for some time now, uh going through this election. And obviously, you know, the Republicans will use that imagery. Um, you know, but I think they have the rest of the time.

• 32:42Speaker 1

  They have to be, but they do have to be careful, right? I mean, you don't want

• 32:45Speaker 0

  to, you know,

• 32:45Speaker 1

  because look, we

• 32:46Speaker 0

  you know, we there was a fatality there. Um, you know, people maybe maybe more. Yeah, maybe more. And so uh I think they they're gonna want to. So I'm hoping what this does is I hope it dials down the discourse. I hope it keeps things for a little bit of time. Again, I'm cynical, but may you know, civil. And I hope it makes the Trump campaign more reflective, right? About their strategy and their tone and the way that they approach things.

• 33:19Speaker 1

  What what does what does that mean? Be more specific for me.

• 33:21Speaker 0

  Well, I think look, everybody talks about everybody talks about how you gotta win the moderates, right? You gotta win the the independence, you know, if you're if you're gonna win it all in November. And I think um if if what we got was the Trump of old, right? He's not winning those people, right? Because they already left him in 2020. That's why he didn't win, right? Because they were like, I'm tired of the chaos, I'm tired of the noise, I'm tired of the you know, all of this, and and uh so I think that if this makes him more or the campaign more reflective, and they say, you know, what you know, let's let's let's continue to dial it back. The Democrats are gonna do whatever they're gonna do. If they get back to throwing hand grenades, okay, fine, let them, but let's be the let's be the contrast, right?

• 34:09Speaker 0

  I think that's the way that you get and and then just focus on policies. Just talk about policies,

• 34:15Speaker 1

  nothing else. Right. Well, you already had a a little bit more of a pivot to a slightly more statesman like version of Trump during the debate. And then after the debate, you know, there was no uh posting about Biden, there was no silly tweet or what equivalent there wasn't there was none of that. Silence was his greatest weapon for the first time ever. Um

• 34:37Speaker 0

  when your enemy's imploding, don't get in the way. Don't get in the way, yeah,

• 34:40Speaker 1

  precisely. Um talk to me about what you think this does to Trump's image among the American populace. How do you think that this incident changes it, if if at all?

• 34:51Speaker 0

  Well, I I don't know that it uh look, I I I think it I think it will make a difference with some who were undecided, not necessarily I'm not talking necessarily about you know, uh independents and moderates who are focused on politics, but I think those people who you know maybe don't spend a lot of time thinking about politics, but we're still kind of undecided.

• 35:10Speaker 1

  Maybe maybe unregistered or I wasn't I wasn't sure if I was gonna vote at all.

• 35:14Speaker 0

  Yeah. I I think that that and it and part of that will be that contrast between this guy standing up after he's shot and what they saw during that debate. If they happen to see clips or they watch some of the debate, I think that contrast will influence a certain group. Um I think if he can if he can I don't I don't know if statesman's the right word, but I think if he can be more moderate, then and speak to the issues and just stay there, then I think that can influence those moderates and independents perhaps that that are a little more focused on politics and did abandoned uh or abandoned the the campaign the last time around. So I think it can have an impact. Uh look uh the Democrats, you know, they must be amazed right now, right? Because all that conversation about Biden, that's that's nowhere to be found, right? That's done, at least for now.

• 36:00Speaker 0

  People are not talking about Biden, they're not talking about his feebleness, his mental acuity, is he still fit to serve? And so I think the White House is if anything is taking a breath and going, Oh, thank

• 36:12Speaker 1

  God. I I I'm not sure there. So I I think that I get what you mean. The it's a good day for bad news, or it's a good day to be senile, I suppose. Um, but the problem is that this recent shooting assassination attempt is framed against the uh foundation that we already had. Everyone still already has that in the back of their mind. We know the fragility that we've seen of the existing president, the fact that he doesn't have that sort of gusto and that get up that that we want to show from a leader up against China, up against Russia, etc. Uh, and then you have this, even if you're not looking at it anymore, it's like just being in a cold bath and getting into a hot one. You're like, holy fuck, this is different. So I I do think that that's going to be there.

• 36:58Speaker 1

  I also agree. I think the more mature and uh standoffish that the Republicans can be when it comes to messaging around this, I think that's going to benefit them more. For the first time ever, this is one of my George who I'm traveling with at the moment told me this yesterday. For the first time ever, Trump has a victim card. He's never had a victim card before. Trump has that's he has a fucking victim card.

• 37:24Speaker 0

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, although I would argue that the the base, right? His his loyal, loyal supporters view him as as the the supreme victim, right? Just being victimized by lawfare and the the Biden administration. And so I think that group always looks at them in that regard, right? You know, look what they're doing to him again.

• 37:42Speaker 1

  And now he's being shot in the shot, yeah. In the in the fucking air. Well, I so I another interesting thing is how much damage does this incident do to the left moral high ground around not being the violent ones.

• 37:57Speaker 0

  Yeah, I don't think they care. I think they just they'll they'll just I've never seen any awareness on their part that that could be an issue, right? It's just sort of like that mostly peaceful antifa riots and you know, burnings and and violence. I I think that they just brushed that aside. And so I don't know that um they're worried about that idea. They all jumped on the notion, they were they were they were really wordsmithing, but they jumped on the notion in their statements about the uh assassination attempt that the shooter was a registered Republican, and uh they you know, and by the way, why do all these guys look the same? I don't I don't understand.

• 38:39Speaker 1

  Um

• 38:42Speaker 0

  I didn't I didn't say that. My oldest boy said that. He said, What the hell is it with with with people like what are they what what is the commonality? You know, his point was maybe they need to do a study of all these people and find that. What was

• 38:54Speaker 1

  that thing that was super racist and done in the 19th? Was it phrenology or physiognomy or whatever it was? Something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like face shape as being indicative. Well, what do we what do we know about the shooter?

• 39:07Speaker 0

  You know, uh what, 20 years old from the from the area Bethel Bethel Park in Pennsylvania. Um, I've only heard a few comments from people who claim that they knew him in high school, and those are typical comments, quiet loner bullied. Um, you know, his dad purchased legally, legally, apparently the long gun that was used on Saturday by his kid uh some six months ago. Um, you know, so there's not a there's not a lot of information out there. It's interesting the bureau's got his obviously they got his electronic devices, they took his phone down to Quantico, and you know, once again, they're they're you know, struggling it according to reports. I don't know whether that's the case or not, but they say they're struggling to unlock it.

• 39:57Speaker 0

  Um phone of

• 39:57Speaker 1

  a twenty year old loner from Yeah.

• 40:02Speaker 0

  Yeah. So I think it's it's uh, you know, we'll we'll get more detailed, but that's one of those areas, right? Well, you have to be. I always hate to see people speculating about motives because that's one of the things in terms of an investigation, regardless of what type of shooting event it is, that you really need to let the facts you know come to light before you start talking in in earnest about oh, you know, what the motivation of the shooter was.

• 40:27Speaker 1

  So bizarre, man. I there's definitely I think another discussion to be had around what is the training of local law enforcement. You know, we've had it before. I I was watching this documentary about um I there's a name for them. What's the name for police officers that don't enter firefights even though they should do it's like the it's not coward or whatever. It's like there's a specific name for it, you know, like uh um false valor or whatever. There's like an equivalent sort of name for it. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, just failing at duty. And uh, you know, I saw in this same uh documentary I was talking about that a lot of the police officers were saying that they spend more time in diversity meetings than they do with their firearm in their hand. Yeah.

• 41:09Speaker 0

  And that is true. Uh when you look at the consistency of training, that's why that, you know, so one of the things that could drive you crazy during that the sort of the height of the defund the police was really uh you're just fucking stupid because if you want a better police force, a more responsive police force, a more responsible police force, you want to actually give them more funds for training. That's where it all starts, right? So part of the problem is again, going back to something we talked about uh earlier is that you know, a lot of times when you hit budget cuts, training's one of the first things to go. And that can't be the case when you're talking about law enforcement.

• 41:41Speaker 1

  Especially not if you're gonna be a guy who goes up a ladder and sees a dude with a long gun and

• 41:47Speaker 0

  that again, I I I am I'm fascinated by the comms portion of this and and the the line of communication because there's a period of time there, right? Where the attendees alert the local authorities, local authorities decide someone, you know, Bob's got to go over there and investigate. Well, at the same time, all that communication should have been shared with the counter-sniper teams and command and control from the Secret Service, right? They should have been making decisions in real time. So if that person was going up a ladder on that building, they should have had him in their sights at that point, right? Now, maybe they didn't have line of sight on the on the shooter. Maybe he, you know, he was out of range, uh, not out of range, but out of sight. Yeah. And then he pops up and points his weapon at the butt to shoot him. As soon as it, you know, I so there's little steps here, but again, you know, is it fair for me without the investigation being done to make all these you know statements?

• 42:39Speaker 0

  I don't know. I'm just speaking from you know, from fat past experience on other events, but you know, we they gotta let the investigation play out. It's just it's such a the event had such magnitude and such impact that it's natural I get why people rush to make judgment or statements or talk about things. It makes sense.

• 42:56Speaker 1

  Do you think that this stops Biden from stepping down because Trump now has a a martyr vote?

• 43:06Speaker 0

  Well, I think um, yeah, that's that's a yeah, that's a really interesting point. But I think it goes back to what I was saying when uh I was I was trying to refer to the the the fact that the noise around Biden's situation has died down uh to noise, right? So I think it does uh buy him significant time. And I think him coming out and saying, you know, look, we need to be civil. We need to think about how we talk about each other. He's trying to be presidential. He's trying to show, obviously, like with every event that he's had since the debate that he's he's up to the job. But I think it's making it more difficult, right, for the Democrats to continue to beat the drum. There were probably prior to Saturday, there were probably more Democrats in Congress or in the Senate who were going to step out, you know, and say we think he needs to go, right?

• 43:58Speaker 0

  That that was a building drum beat. I think that it's more difficult now for them to do that because of the events of Saturday and because of the feeling like, okay, well, maybe, you know, maybe we just gotta stick with Joe. Um dude. Think about the last

• 44:14Speaker 1

  three weeks of fucking news.

• 44:19Speaker 0

  Yeah. Well, think about the last, I mean, really, think about this past year, right? Everything that's been going on. I mean, it obviously, you know, Ukraine, fucking Gaza, right? Um, you know, the the discourse on the around the election, this event on Saturday. I mean, good God. Um, you know, all we need is a pandemic. Um

• 44:42Speaker 1

  sorry. Sorry

• 44:44Speaker 0

  that that's terrible, but you know, not that we won't get one. We're gonna get another pandemic by that.

• 44:48Speaker 1

  It'll happen. It'll happen, it'll continue to happen. Uh talk to me about JD Vance.

• 44:54Speaker 0

  Yeah, interesting. I guess not an uh unexpected choice. You know, they've been banging on for a while saying it was either going to be Vance or or uh Bergam or uh Rubio. Um look, JD Vance is close to his to Trump's son. They're very good friends. Uh he's he's an interesting cat, right? Has almost I don't

• 45:16Speaker 1

  know anything about him. Explain to me who he is.

• 45:19Speaker 0

  Yeah, he's got almost no political experience. Uh he wrote uh that book, Hill Billy Elogy, which was a very interesting book. I mean, it's very interesting book. Um and you know, they made a movie out of it, I think, but he's a political newcomer. Uh he's been a very staunch supporter of Trump out of he's out of Ohio. Um, you know, of the candidates, I don't know that if what you were saying was I want to, I want to pick a candidate who can really help me win over uh groups that I'm I'm I I need to win. I don't know that JD Vance is that person because he's he's already got his base, right? And so I think JD Vance kind of shares the same supporters.

• 46:04Speaker 0

  Uh Rubio, you know, could have shorn up uh short up Florida, obviously, you know, with a Hispanic vote as well would help. He's a much more seasoned politician. Uh Bergham is, you know, he's is a good friend of Trump's. He's he's got you know very good political instincts, business instincts. Um Nikki Haley was hanging out there, and I gotta tell you, if you wanted the moderates or you wanted the independent voters, um you could argue from Nikki Haley could have been a terrific choice, except they got, you know, they were so sideways with each other during the the primary.

• 46:44Speaker 1

  What do you think? Do you think there's any chance that Trump changed his VP pick post-Saturday? Oh, that's interesting.

• 46:54Speaker 0

  Uh no, probably not. I think I think the the the

• 46:59Speaker 1

  wheels are in motion too much.

• 47:01Speaker 0

  Yeah, I think the factor that would have changed his decision possibly would have been if Biden had stepped out and had pulled himself out. That that may have recalibrated the thinking, perhaps uh over the VP pick, but I I don't think Saturday, I think at that point he, you know, he just he went with Vance um and didn't change his mind.

• 47:23Speaker 1

  Uh I I was in a I'm in a group chat with a bunch of different people here. Uh one of them saying uh Teal hired him at his VC fund Mithril, uh also endorsed his Senate campaign with the biggest individual donation ever for a Senate campaign of 15 million dollars. Very happy with Vance, super smart, competent veteran, Rust Belt, blue collar orientation. Also, and sad that this is the case, he provides assassination insurance.

• 47:51Speaker 0

  Yeah, well, look, I mean, Trump had been saying that, right? He said, you know, his decision over who to pick would be, you know, if something bad happens, are they ready to step in? But okay, to be fair, uh, you know, every presidential nominee says that. I want my VP pick to be ready on day one. Um look, I I like I like Vance in the sense that he's he's unique, right? He's not a he's not a 110-year politician, right? And uh that's not a bad thing at all. And I like the fact that he's a veteran. That's a very good thing. Um I'm just saying it's an interesting choice in the sense that I don't know that it expands the voting block necessarily for the campaign, because it's drawing from the same kind of block as opposed to maybe one of the other picks, but then again, you know, you want somebody that you can, you know, be sympathetical with.

• 48:45Speaker 0

  And Vance has been a staunch supporter. Nikki,

• 48:48Speaker 1

  Nikki Haley might have just been a fucking nightmare from behind the scenes from day one.

• 48:53Speaker 0

  Well, I think it would have been it would have been a very interesting dynamic. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's that's the case. And maybe Rubio, you know, was a bit of the same way, you know. Maybe there was some, you know, concern over past, you know, you know, uh punches they'd thrown at each other. So who knows? I uh at the end of the day, does it does it matter all that much? I I don't know that a VP pick matters all that much. Look, if if Biden stays in, um, you know, I think the the key has got to be saying, look, you're you're not running against Biden, you're running against you know, President Harris, because I don't think anybody in their right mind believes that Biden, you know, makes it through four years if he wins. So uh a vote for Biden is a vote for Kamala Harris, and you're willing to say that Kamala Harris, you know, is could be the leader of the free world.

• 49:44Speaker 1

  And I can't even say that with a straight face. I mean, that's that's more terrifying than the president getting shot. Oh, the presidential candidate being shot in the ear. Uh I've seen this map, the election map of when Reagan got shot afterward, and you've got red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, red, and then this one. Blue dot that remained up at the top. How likely or how unlikely is that to be the case given the sort of never die, never Trump, etc. kind of even after all of this. You've basically got the ultimate one-to punch. Like jab in the face, Biden's completely incompetent. Punch, the other guy is totally competent and can literally get shot and stand up 15 seconds later. But that's just surely there's no way that we can see a huge red sweep in the same way because people are just so uh passionate about hating Trump.

• 50:37Speaker 1

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 50:37Speaker 0

  He's that's it's a different if it's it's a different situation. You can't it's apples and oranges when you're talking about what happened with Reagan, I think and and so look, there's no way he's gonna run the table or get anywhere close, it's gonna be a close race still. Um and I think that you know, the jury's still out. Maybe, maybe when the noise dies down, right? And you know, the election really heats up again and the rhetoric, you know, comes back kind of the way it was, that the Democrats, you know, start reevaluating again uh Biden's, you know, uh suitability. And you know, so that could be that could be the next big event in terms of the election season that we're we're in the middle of. Fucking hell.

• 51:18Speaker 1

  Okay, so one other thing that I really wanted to ask you uh, one of your expertise, international relations, uh first off, have any other world leaders of interest said anything that's interesting. And secondly, how do you think other countries, the China's, the Russians, the Irans of the world, how do you think they interpret the ease with which a 20-year-old bullied kid with bad hair was able to shoot the president's ear off.

• 51:46Speaker 0

  Yeah. Well, I think that I think the jihadists are looking at it and going, what? That's it. That's all you're gonna do is climb up on a damn shed. Um, yeah. So I think that they're looking at it from a security breakdown and thinking, oh my God, maybe we've been overthinking this. Right? Uh gave them

• 52:02Speaker 1

  too much credit.

• 52:03Speaker 0

  Yeah. And so uh the butt look, the Chinese regime has always Xi Jinping and the foreign ministry, they you know, they were very muted in their response uh after the assassination attempt, and you know, they you know wished wished him well. Um, but they they tend to, you know, try to be seen as not waiting in because they don't want anybody stepping in their business. Um European leaders said exactly what you would imagine. You know, everybody was condemning the political violence. Um there was weren't really many um I'm trying to think Slovakia, Robert Fickel, you know, he made a couple of interesting comments because he had been, you know, the uh they tried to assassinate him not that long ago, shot him, I think four times.

• 52:51Speaker 0

  Um so he uh he alluded to the idea that you know the the rhetoric from the opposition party, you know, probably played a role. But there were there was pretty much just what you would expect, you know, condemnation of political violence from world leaders, you know, UK uh Keir Starmer, the new prime minister, he came in and weighed in very quickly. Um and and so that makes sense. It's you wouldn't expect anything different. Um Russian uh I'm trying to remember what what they they didn't really say much. I think uh Peskov, the spokesperson for the Kremlin made a made an off-handed comment. Um, but you know, basically it was not another

• 53:32Speaker 1

  uh another advertisement of America's in fighting operational poor management, the fact that one party that's kind of in charge of the protection detail for the other party isn't capable of stopping this. It's it's more sort of America falling flat on its face on the world stage, only recently after the guy that's in charge couldn't string a sentence together.

• 53:56Speaker 0

  Yeah. It was interesting. I mean, I speaking of that, you know, the the White House during the NATO summit, which was just you know concluded last week. Um John Kirby was was asked, and he said, Look, I you know, the nobody in NATO questions uh Biden's abilities, right? We don't have to justify Biden to anybody. They all you know firmly believe, well, what else are the NATO leaders gonna say? You know, I mean they you know, but it was it was interesting that even at that point when it was clear that there were some issues, um, the White House was still trying to portray Biden as as you know being on top of his game and sharp as attack and all the other like I again we're all getting older, right? You know, you, me, everybody, we're all getting older, we all age differently, right?

• 54:44Speaker 0

  It's not age, it's mental acuity, and we've all got elderly parents, we've all got elderly grandparents, we all know what it looks like. So I think the problem the White House has, even during this moment when that talk has died down, is that people understand that process, right? And they know what it looks like because they've seen it or they've had to deal with it directly. So I don't know ultimately that they're gonna be able to hold the line and keep him in there. Uh but frankly, Kamala Harris and John Kirby and Karim Jean-Pierre and you know, everybody in his little circle and his family, um, they've kind of been lying to the American public um for quite some time now and trying to cover up what's been happening, despite the fact that we've been seeing bits and pieces of it, but that's why he hasn't been

• 55:34Speaker 1

  out there, right? What was it called? What was it called when you when you take videos out of context? What was that? There was a name. Oh, a cheap fake. Cheap fake. Yeah, that's what

• 55:42Speaker 0

  how they were referring to it. It was a it was a cheap fake. Uh every time that there was a reference to it, or that we were just and the media for the most part were willing to cover it up as well.

• 55:51Speaker 1

  Complicit. Did you read, I think it was Ben Usher, he wrote an article called Common Knowledge. I didn't read that. No. I'll send it to you, I'll send it to you afterwards. So but that basically the the breakdown, it's phenomenal. It's so good. And uh it basically says that it's not enough for you to know a thing. You need to know that other people know that thing too. So for instance, it's not enough for you to know that Biden, it's the Emperor's New Clothes. Yeah, right. You can pick your favorite fairy tale of choice. Um, and the problem being that until you have reliable insight that other people will agree with your position, nobody is prepared to uh take the position. So it's not enough for you to know that you know. You need to know that everybody else also knows.

• 56:37Speaker 1

  And what we saw on the debate night was common knowledge be distributed to the masses. There was nowhere else for anybody to hide. Therefore, when you come out as someone who previously has said Biden's sharpest attack, or what you know, we picked New York Times fucking like Washington Post, whoever it is, yeah, and then you pivot and say something else. Well, it's a completely costless position to hold because everybody else knows it. Like it's the same with the free speech position. You know, free speech doesn't matter for people who agree with you or who you agree with. Free speech only matters for the people who you disagree with because it's a costly position in order to be able to hold that. And it's the same with this common knowledge thing.

• 57:22Speaker 1

  And it's so interesting to me because for those of us that exist terminally online in the heterodoxosphere of substakistan, we have all known this for forever. This is something this is to me, talking like doing jokes about Biden's mental degradation was hacky. It was so obvious that it felt low ball to say, and then you watch the debate and you go, oh there's people in the world who don't have access to my common knowledge. Now I'm sure that there's shit tons of stuff that I don't know about, but that was one of the things that I did. So much so that I take it for granted. It's an accepted fact, and it's so much of an accepted fact that it would be hacky and low ball to make a joke about it. And oh, the world thinks that this is fucking revolutionary, and it really broke my brain for a while when I realized, oh, my understanding and the way that I see certain parts of the world and the way that maybe the rest of the a big chunk of the populace does is fucking miles apart.

• 58:20Speaker 1

  I I'm no fucking clairvoyant political divinity guy. But fuck me, I knew that. And for it to be a revelation was just like, oh wow, this really does show how uh echo bubbles and the still the power of legacy media to be able to filter what actually gets down to the sort of ocean floor of most people uh it wild, wild is

• 58:40Speaker 0

  and there and the the ability to repeat a message, right? If you're you know, if you just keep saying the same thing over here, sharp as

• 58:46Speaker 1

  attack, sharp as attack.

• 58:47Speaker 0

  And and then it and then it works, and then we find out that they you know had been basically complicit in hiding this, and you know, that's why uh and then of course, you know, people come out and pundits come out and and people who had just been on on their shows, you know, talking about how great he is, you know, saying, Well, I, you know, we've kind of seen this for a while, and I can't believe that they've hid it from us. And you think uh it's it's kind of like it's kind of like again, what we talked about earlier, calling Trump Hitler, and then the next day wishing him well, you know, it's it's it's that it's that immediate turnaround that to me is shocking, but but we people just move on, right? And they and they know that, right? They know they can do this. There's almost no shame because they just like, okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna pivot and completely reverse my position, and I'll be fine in a day or two.

• 59:32Speaker 0

  Um it's it's shocking. But

• 59:34Speaker 1

  anyway. In the interim, just just rounding out the conversation on security. Does Tim Kennedy or Eric Prince need to be called in? Do you do you go private security to uh bolster uh Trump's security detail or maybe maybe other people's security details? No,

• 59:51Speaker 0

  no, I think look, I I you know I was out and we had a large operation out in Iraq. Um early days of Iraq. Right. I mean, talking oh three, oh four, oh five, oh six. I mean, and uh, you know, we were we had a large private security operation out there, and and um uh that's a that's a that's a war zone, so it's a little bit different, but when we're talking about augmenting Secret Service with you know private security, I

• 1:00:21Speaker 1

  I

• 1:00:21Speaker 0

  I don't

• 1:00:22Speaker 1

  think so. I think looking at the challenges that you face when you try to augment Secret Service with with private guys, hierarchy, power Yeah,

• 1:00:30Speaker 0

  you're just you're just layering on potential communications and command and control issues, and and I just think it's and it's also um I think look the Secret Service uh their staff with some great people, right? We always have to be careful about you know, there's there's this tendency to say, oh, they're all screwed, dismantle it, you know. That's it was that cry about you gotta get rid of the bureau and get rid of the agency and do all these things. And I'm thinking, really? That's that's that's your take on this. Um how about just fixing problems? And uh so the Secret Service uh augmented by uh local and state uh, you know, law enforcement, uh, they can do the job. They've been doing the job, right? Um, part of this is they've got to they've gotta be transparent again. They've got to come out and say these are the steps that that occurred.

• 1:01:18Speaker 0

  And and some of them won't surprise us because we all watched, right? Um, but they've got to be very clear about what those steps are, and they've got to be very clear about how they intend to not have it happen again, right? And that's gonna require some people taking responsibility, and that's where I think that can be a problem because you have to make people at the top take responsibility and maybe suffer some consequences, as opposed to just saying, you know, the officer on the ground who failed to communicate in real time what he was about to do by going up on that building, you know, that's the guy who's you we can all blame.

• 1:01:55Speaker 1

  Yeah, I I have had it in my head since Saturday. I wonder whether there is a level of negligence you reach where it almost becomes complicity.

• 1:02:04Speaker 0

  Well, I I think it's complicity, it could be um what's the word I'm looking for? Complacency, you know, maybe at times. Um,

• 1:02:12Speaker 1

  it just the the reason that I brought up the private security thing is I saw that trailer saying 30% of secret service staff are going to be female by 2030. I I spoke to Tim and Tim explained to me that the mile time for guys versus girls to run is different. The weight load that you need to be able to lift is different. Yeah, the height, all of the rest of the stuff. You know, you saw a a woman who was he came up, she came up to Trump's nipple, maybe. You know, got this big guy, got this big dude and this like little woman in that's where you decided

• 1:02:46Speaker 0

  that's where he decided to go as far as the height measurement was the nipple. Yeah,

• 1:02:49Speaker 1

  the nipple. I think that's precisely where she that's precisely where she got to. And um, you know, I No, I

• 1:02:54Speaker 0

  I know what you mean. And then you know, they would get uh you had an agent, you know, kind of fumble fucking with her weapon, trying to re whole you know, holster it. That was the

• 1:03:00Speaker 1

  same one who used Trump that hid behind Trump like this, like sort of in that kind of like uh for the fucking the guy woman in the kitchen from Tom and Jerry, like

• 1:03:13Speaker 0

  that's a great cultural pull right there. Yeah, you haven't thought about that for a while, haven't you? Um look, I think there's uh you there's no room for DEI in in the world of operations of security, right? You just simply choose the it shouldn't be the way it is in everything, not just those sectors, but you you choose the most qualified, capable people. Um and if they can't cut it, then you move them out and you bring in somebody who's more capable and qualified. And you're right, you can't you there's a problem when you when you because I think the Secret Service will say that look, we didn't lower the standards, right? That's not that's not what we did, right? But you hear that all the time. Problem is that that belies the reality, right? Al Niraq is a good example, right? For a while there it was only we'll only bring former you know, spec ops guys out, right?

• 1:04:03Speaker 0

  Well, there's that's a that's a small pool, right? There's not a lot, it's not a lot of former guys there with that qualification. So then you started seeing, you know, everybody squatties and everybody coming out there and claiming that they were a spec ops, former, you know, this and that. And so uh you've got a you've got a limited pool of capable people, I believe, right, that you can choose from for a certain jobs. And you just have to take those people and say, fuck DEI. That's not what's important in this business, right? Um and and again, I'm I I don't want to rush to judgment, right? I don't know the qualifications, these people we have to kind of look and see. You always let's be measured, that sort of thing. But I take your point and I I don't disagree with it at

• 1:04:47Speaker 1

  all. Well, the the problem being the reason that I meant I mentioned uh Eric or Tim or some other private contractor is that you know uh Tim brought it up to me. He said the people that you see that are on Trump's detail, even though they may not have performed like the A Team, they weren't hired yesterday. You don't get hired and then get put on a presidential candidate's detail. You have been in the agency for a while, you've been hired and trained long ago. You've been around for a long time. So in order to say, well, we're going to rectify it, we're going to train better, we're going to hire better, we're going to change the DEI initiative, we're going to do whatever it is that they say that they're going to do. Brilliant. You know, the 2028 election may very well be more way more secure than this one. But you know, when you're thinking what's going to happen over the next however long, RFK Jr.

• 1:05:34Speaker 1

  has just been given uh secret uh service detail. That's going to take some of the resources away. And how many people are going to have their time taken up going through fucking meeting after meeting after hearing after court case after uh investigation. As you said, sucking the oxygen out of the room and taking the attention away from the thing that it needs to be focused on. So yeah, I I I don't know, man. I mean, it America is not showering itself in glory, and oddly, the only person that is at the moment is Trump. That's

• 1:06:02Speaker 0

  a great way to put it. That's no, I yeah, that's that's gonna drive a lot of people crazy when they hear you say that. But

• 1:06:08Speaker 1

  it's fucking true. Dude, I I people can go back and listen. I I don't think I've ever been complimentary about Trump. Not that I was particularly critical of him over Biden, but I'm like, he's just a fing dude. He's a dude that's kind of a bit crazy. And I just think tell me, tell me that you look at that photo and you don't think yeah, like that's some late 80s flag flying Americana like legitimacy. Um almost like

• 1:06:36Speaker 0

  he's out there yelling Wolverine's, right? So yeah, no, I I again and it's that imagery that's so important, right? Because people make decisions quickly, people don't dig deep, you know, then and and they're gonna see that, and maybe they make up their mind. And and you know what, uh again, you can't well you're gonna argue with that. You're gonna look at that, and then you're gonna look at at President Biden from the debate, and you're gonna go, okay, who's

• 1:06:57Speaker 1

  obviously tell you what's tell you what's an awesome, awesome video that you can get a hold of. So uh Evan, the guy that took the photo, um he is a Brazilian jiu-jitsu guy, looks an awful lot like a Navy SEAL, like massive. He looks like he looks like a young jockey willing hard dude. And um, if you watch the video, there's a panned out version of the stage, and those shots start firing. He doesn't stop in power. He starts strafing across the front of the stage to get those shots. There's two guys that get them. Really interesting video that you can find, um, which was shot on a pair of Ray Ban meta glasses. So I've I've got a pair of those two. So it's a pair of sunglasses that you wear, and they've got two little lenses on either side, and they can shoot up to about a minute of video in very high quality, and the color representation's really good. And this guy, so uh Evan's the guy that took the photo, the photos are going around everywhere.

• 1:07:46Speaker 1

  But there's another dude who presumably got very similarly good photos as that. Yeah, I think he's from the New York Times. I think, yeah, Doug Mills, maybe. Yeah. So he Yeah, it is Doug Mills. He had the foresight when he's round the back, he's around the back of the stage, and the video begins, but you can't remotely start those glasses. So he's had uh his his camera like this, or whatever it is like this, and he's shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, and he's taking his hand off, pressed the button, held it, because you have to hold it if you want to take a video, and then come back to that. And if you watch, I I messaged Dean, the guy that led it this episode, you met him in in Miami, my video guy. I was asking him, what is that dude, Doug? What's what's that dude doing? Because you actually see from his glasses, you can see both of his hands, right? So he's got his hands up like this, and you're looking at this thing.

• 1:08:35Speaker 1

  And um, he uh he's shooting a lot. This is during a fing firefight. Yeah, these guys, it's so f cool. I love seeing people who know their craft inside out doing something. And what's coolest about this isn't the show, the shots that he get, it's the seamlessness with which he does it. So you see that he's shooting and he can't frame up properly. So he takes his hand off the front of the camera, flips the screen down so that he can get a better look. And he's he's working on his, I think either exposure or focus, whatever Dean said. And then uh he's checking. He's checking the screen. He's going like this. And Dean was like, he's working about every one to two one and a half seconds, he's looking at the composition of his shot during this. So he's shooting, shooting, shooting, look. Shooting, shooting, shooting, look. Shooting, shooting, shooting, shooting, and they'll burst, burst, burst, bust, burst.

• 1:09:22Speaker 1

  I would I'm like, that's the one of the coolest parts of it. You know what else.

• 1:09:27Speaker 0

  You know what else is amazing. If you watch right behind Trump, there's some lady, right? As soon as the shooting starts, literally, the shooting starts, she puts up her phone. It and she just she's just in the audience, right? She's I'm first or second row behind Trump. So you gotta watch the watch the videos that are out there, and you'll see she's got a I think she's got a white case on her phone. And she's sitting there and wearing a white shirt, I think, and she and and it literally the it starts off and her she just puts her phone up.

• 1:09:57Speaker 1

  And I'm like, God. So I I don't know whether this is true. Tim is the only guy that's told me this. He said that the man who died, uh comp comp compitator. Yeah, you think compitori. Yes. Um, he apparently, this is what Tim said, threw himself on top of his family. Yeah. And that he took the the shot in his head. That's what the reports are saying. Yeah, that's right. Using his body, which is the Aurora Colorado shooting all over again, right? That someone goes in and boyfriends throw themselves on top of girlfriends.

• 1:10:30Speaker 0

  Yeah. Yeah. No, it's you know, and I think uh I think that's another reason why. Look, you you know, if if no one else had been hurt, maybe they would treat it a little bit differently, but you can't you gotta be very measured about how they talk about this. Uh, from the Republican side, from the campaign side. And I think they their their best thing to do is just let it go. Obviously, they'll probably reference it during the RNC speeches or whatever, but they gotta let it go. Just go, and then just and then just let you know some of the imagery speak for itself, but move on and go to the issues and and it looks

• 1:10:58Speaker 1

  too

• 1:10:59Speaker 0

  um

• 1:11:00Speaker 1

  uh callous to to use it as a look at how awesome we are, where hardest whilst a guy died and there's m one or two people still in intensive care.

• 1:11:09Speaker 0

  Exactly. Dude, I I hate to say this, but

• 1:11:12Speaker 1

  I gotta pop. That's all right, dude. I appreciate you for doing this. Emergency episode. I needed to get you on. Uh Mike Baker, ladies and gentlemen, MB Company Man.

• 1:11:21Speaker 0

  MB Company Man. Um, also uh the President's Daily Brief podcast. Look at me marketing right now. Just before we finish up, I'm butt nah, and I talk about that, but the President's Daily Brief podcast, available on all podcast platforms, and we do a weekend TV show now called The Situation Report.

• 1:11:38Speaker 1

  Well, you'll have a lot to talk about next weekend. Mate, I really appreciate you. Uh stay safe at the RNC. If you enjoyed that episode, you will love a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last couple of months, and it's available right here. Go on. Give him a watch.