The Trades You Make to Live Your Dreams - I Prevail

Eric Vanlerberghe is a vocalist, songwriter, and founding member of the band I Prevail. Gabe Helguera is a drummer, and co-founder of Drum Beats Online (DBO), and a member of the band I Prevail. From the outside, the life of a heavy-metal band seems larger-than-life. But behind the scenes, the truth is far more raw. Eric and Gabe of I Prevail share what touring is really like and how the rock and metal scene is shifting right now. Expect to learn what’s happening with the rock and metal scene is music right now, what the process of writing records which deal with deeply emotional personal topics as a group is, the biggest misconceptions about being a “heavy” band in 2025, how worried the guys are about the future of streaming and AI music, what life is actually like on the road for a successful touring band, what's next for I Prevail and much more… - 0:00 The Comeback: Why Rock & Metal are Rising from the Ashes 11:14 Why Does Metal Resonate So Deeply? 19:35 Turning Chaos into Connection: How Bands Tell Personal Stories Together 27:41 Are AI Music Artists Taking Over? 47:56 Why the Creative Process Feels So Freeing 59:56 Why We Turn to Music When Life Gets Overwhelming 01:07:50 The Hidden Costs of Success 01:26:08 Coping with the Guilt of Living Your Dreams 01:35:18 How to Stay Grounded When Your Identity Keeps Shifting 01:41:00 What Goes into Crafting an Unforgettable Live Show? 01:52:50 How Can Perfectionism Hurt You? 02:03:35 Does Obsession Destroy the Variety in Life? 02:12:50 Why Relationships are What Really Matters 02:29:07 How to Keep Morale High When Tour Life Gets Tough 02:41:49 Where to Find I Prevail - Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get $100 off the best bloodwork analysis in America at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Why did you get deep throated by confetti?

• 0:05Speaker 01

  That is up to date research right there.

• 0:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:07Speaker 01

  I respect that.

• 0:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, so um, yeah, Gabe really crushes it with our content and comes up with some awesome ideas. And we kind of pitched them and throw it into a pot. And, and he came, we came in for a content day and wrote this whole script up. And it was for this giveaway we were doing. And he had written in the script that he was gonna get pieced in the face. And then Dylan shows up and I don't know, he just changed his mind on the spot. It was like, yeah, Dylan's gonna get pieced.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  I gotta be the guy behind the camera, so someone else has gotta take the pie. So we pil, we, we pieced Dylan in the face quite a bit. And from, from that night, Dylan plotted his revenge for pie and confetti in Eric's face.

• 0:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I gotta, you know, shout out, we came as Romans, cuz they went along with it. We get into their trailer and I get a text and they have this ritual before their show. It's whiskey time and they go, you know, have this little ritual and like, get to the trailer now, whiskey time. So I'm walking in going whiskey time, whiskey time, pie, pieed again. And now I can't see and my mouth's open and I'm just like, whiskey time. And as soon as I said time, I couldn't see anything. I just got a mouthful of I didn't know what. And then, uh, yeah, I couldn't breathe for a little bit and the uvula in the back of my throat turned into a disco ball. It was like, it was pretty crazy.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  Title of your autobiography?

• 1:22Chris Williamson?

  The uvula in my throat.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Mouthful of I don't know what.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  I trademarked that, I'm taking that.

• 1:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, uh, well, I don't know, I feel like having a confetti bukkake is a good way to start a show.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I think it might have to be a ritual, just not on me this time. And Dylan, Dylan, you, you're owed one.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  There's gonna be some behind the scenes warfare for sure. This will, this will start a two-year warfare.

• 1:47Chris Williamson?

  Okay, this is the beginning of a vicious retributive cycle.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely.

• 1:53Chris Williamson?

  Um, I wanna know what you guys make of what's happening with the rock and metal scene at the moment? Because a lot of artists are rethinking touring. There's some reports that have come out recently that I've read. Pop, hip-hop, country, uh, little touch and go, some in decline. And certainly if you aggregate it, a lot in decline. But rock touring seems to be bigger than ever. So give me your thoughts, like you guys been around for a minute.

• 2:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:21Chris Williamson?

  What do you make of the arc of alternative and heavy music and stuff like that?

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think um, I think, you know, rock and metal, we'll call it modern metal is just in such um, it feels like a boom right now, resurgence. Um, just having chats with friends and it's like, you know, I'm thirty four, but back when I was like fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, I didn't have the funds to go out and see my favorite bands come through Detroit or whatever it may be. And now that we're of the age and have some disposable income, um, when these bands do these twenty year anniversary shows and, and, you know, come back around and they have this lineup of all these other bands that you may have grew up listening to on top of having some of these new bands and it kind of just appeals to our generation. And then, you know, I don't have any kids, but I can

• 3:12Speaker 02

  imagine my kids, the next generation, you know, it's like a family affair. So they're going out and seeing bands like, I mean, we just played when we were young and Blink one eighty two and Panic at the Disco are headlining and then.

• 3:23Chris Williamson?

  Taking back Sunday, brand new.

• 3:25Speaker 02

  The used, um, man, that lineup is just stacked. But now you go out there and you see kids that are like fifteen to eighteen and then you see dudes our age and older that are out there all in the crowd. And I don't know, I think there's a bit of nostalgia. I think there's um, yeah, I don't, I don't know.

• 3:41Chris Williamson?

  It's not just throwback, right?

• 3:43Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 3:43Chris Williamson?

  All new bands with new albums, new music coming out all the time, too.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I think people are pretty, I don't, I don't know if desperate is the right word, but I'll use it desperate for experiences. And I think like pop concerts and all that stuff is like sick. You get to see your favorite pop artists, but the reality is how that music is produced is very tracks heavy. Like a lot of these artists go on stage, it's just them, they have no band playing instruments. And I think it's like a combination of like, you want to see a little bit of that risk factor of like a band really playing and you might see them mess up and that's kind of interesting. But also like in the rock and the metal community scene in particular. I think audience engagement is actually key to the experience, whether that's crowd surfing,

• 4:31Speaker 01

  mosh pits, whatever that is, as opposed to if you're gonna go see a pop artist or whoever, you're kind of just sitting there and it's fun, it's cool. Like, I've been to pop, pop shows and it's fun, but metal and rock, it's a little bit more visceral and with everyone behind computers all day, it's fun to get punched in the face and to like scream your favorite songs at the same time. Uh, makes you feel alive a little bit, I think.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  And I think to, to your point too, with the pop and everything is like, it just, it sounds just like the record, which is, which is great, but you know, there's something about that, like push and pull of the live experience of the band all playing together. And, and uh, I think there's a little bit of that on top of that, too.

• 5:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, especially if you love a track, you love a band and they play your favorite track, but there's a twist on it. Oh, maybe there's a longer solo, maybe they've added an additional chorus at the end. Maybe just the way that the singer that night decides to interpret a way to say the vocals sticks in your mind. I remember going and seeing the bands like Bring Me in Newcastle when they first started doing like moderate sized theaters. And uh, they played a Halloween show. It was just after Jordan had joined the band. And um, I'd seen an opportunity, kind of like a, an ex ugly girl who's just had a glow up. I saw the opportunity to like befriend uh, Jordan, cause he was brand

• 5:58Chris Williamson?

  new to the band and he was having some problem with Ableton. I messaged him about it on Twitter. We became friends and he said, yeah, why don't you come to the show that's happening at the O2. It was on Halloween and they came out fully face painted up as skeletons. They played the whole show as skeletons. I remember like watching that show from the back and thinking so many of the songs that I knew really well, just had little twists and adaptations that had been made.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:22Chris Williamson?

  And uh, that was great because it is a unique experience. And I guess, well, actually, if you were to say that from the pop side.

• 6:32Chris Williamson?

  Who nearly fucking killed that? Was it Beyonce that nearly got killed by a car that was over the top of a flying over the top of the, I swear it was Beyonce was doing a show and she's one of those like floating stage things that, you know, goes right over the crowd and everyone gets to look up. I'm pretty sure that some shit snapped and like, imagine if you were the guy that killed Beyonce. You put the carabiner on wrong or something like that. My point being, you do get to see some stuff at pop shows.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:05Chris Williamson?

  I guess sometimes people go upside down when they drum, but that's really kind of the pinnacle of it from like a show experience.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:11Chris Williamson?

  There's a catwalk, maybe there's some cool blocking, maybe there's not, whatever.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:16Chris Williamson?

  It suggests that there's something about rock and heavy music that you get out of that show that you can't recreate with Pink flying around a stadium or the Jonas Brothers with 20 people on stage or whatever it might be.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think you're right. I think like pop, you're able to do the spectacle a little bit more. You can have Pink, yeah, doing trapeze over the, over the audience. It's sick. Like I, I would love if Eric did the trapeze. I don't know about that.

• 7:45Chris Williamson?

  You're built for the trapeze.

• 7:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:47Chris Williamson?

  Am I? Yeah, you have the exact body shape of a trapeze artist.

• 7:49Speaker 01

  God. I also think like from a, from a songwriting perspective, like at least when I was growing up, metal was all about like, how heavy can you make it? And I still think that's like part of it, but I think now more than ever, metal and pop are fusing in a lot of ways and fusing in a way that's done very well. Like I think people have tried it a lot where it's like they'll have these heavy breakdowns and they'll go into a very melodic chorus, but it just never like really meshes. But you know, you've got bands who are kind of taking these sounds and putting them all together, like, you know, Sleep Token, Bad Omens, those, all those bands who are really exploding. I mean, My theory is that they're exploding because they've mastered melody so much.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And at the end of the day, people want to listen to a song that maybe makes them feel a certain way, gives them energy at the gym or whatever. But without a melodic chorus, not all the time, but a lot of the time, they're, it's not gonna get stuck in their head. They're not gonna come back to it. Don't get me wrong. I'm at the gym sometimes listening to ass beaters and I just wanna like-

• 8:51Chris Williamson?

  Job for a cowboy.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I just wanna go like super hard and that's really fun too. And even those bands are growing too. So it's almost like, I don't know, if these bands all the way at the top are just kind of bringing the whole thing up with them, you know?

• 9:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, definitely the verse chorus kind of pop structure of a song with some melody. I mean, say what you want about sleep talking dude, caramel is one of the catchiest-

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Dude, it's so good.

• 9:16Chris Williamson?

  Fucking hooks, maybe of all time of that genre. It is so sticky.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 9:24Chris Williamson?

  And uh-

• 9:25Speaker 02

  That's fun. I like that.

• 9:27Chris Williamson?

  It's just, it really, you can't get it out of your head the first time that you hear that. So yeah, I think you're right. And it makes it radio friendly. It makes it like sort of chart friendly.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's almost like, you know, I just talked about how so many bands are getting better at blending. But sometimes when you are like, I don't actually care about blending it. Like that's a perfect example of a song where the first three fourths of that song is a pop song, really done well. And then they're just like, and now we're just gonna go into like the heaviest shit we've ever done ever, right? And it's like, sicker because it didn't even try to like meld them. It's just like, here's this and then here's this and what a fun journey for everyone to be on. Yeah, it's like you're, you're really trying something, I think more than, I don't know. I don't wanna be like metal versus other genres, but-

• 10:15Speaker 02

  It's something about too, like you blows your expectations out. Like what, what you were, you got three fourths of the way through the song. You're like, okay, I kinda get where it's going. And then, oh man, there's this switch up at the end. And you know, I think when bands do that very well, it's like, you have the listener on the edge of the seat, you know, you don't know what to expect. You get halfway through the song and you're like, okay, this is cool. And then all of a sudden the bridge comes or the breakdown comes or the outro, whatever it is. There's, you know, I don't see that much. You see that in hip hop a bit, but don't really see that in, in pop. I feel like pop and country. It's just like, you get 30 seconds of the song, you kinda know what you're gonna get.

• 10:49Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you're very rarely surprised.

• 10:51Speaker 02

  Right, right.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Final theory. Is that maybe we're all just getting a little more fucked up? And into like these things that just make us feel like viscerally like I feel like horror movies. I don't watch horror movies, but like, I feel like those are on the rise also. And like almost the more messed up they are, the more popular they get like.

• 11:14Chris Williamson?

  Do you think the messaging?

• 11:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:15Chris Williamson?

  The messaging of metal is tapping into an emotion that's difficult for people to find catharsis with elsewhere.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, yeah, I think so. Some of these like very heavy metal bands and like just, you know, you look at the lyrics or listen to lyrics. It's just like very fucked up and aggressive. And I think it's just a healthy way to, you know, it's, it's human emotion. It's, it's, it's, you know, you're feeling that. It's just a healthy way, I feel like to get that out, especially when you're in a, a small club with 200 people listening and just ass beat or breakdowns over and over and over, just screaming about the most like dark, dark message, dark, dark stuff, you know, like the Acacia Strain is one band that had some like hateful lyrics back in the day. And it's just, you know, I don't feel that way. I don't feel like, you know, chopping people up or whatever cannibal corpse or anything like that.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  But to feel, to feel that health in a healthy way, I guess, is something I think.

• 12:14Chris Williamson?

  It's certainly elevated if you look at like a Sleep Token or Bad Omens now. The message is just like poetic emo. Right? It's Ohio is for lovers for 2025.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:27Chris Williamson?

  You know, like I'm outside of your window like that. It's that sad Nicky FM type thing that we all grew up listening to.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:37Chris Williamson?

  But just like significantly elevated with much more sophisticated production.

• 12:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:44Chris Williamson?

  But it still speaks to, huh, I have challenges and sometimes they're hard and nobody understands me. And this is difficult and I don't know what I'm doing and there is pressure and I'm growing up and things are changing. It's like these timeless, modern problems.

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I feel like I had the gift of reconnecting with the emotion of metal this year in particular. Cause I'll be honest, like I've been in this band for eight years and this point I'm 33 years old and I'm like, yeah, you know, like the, the emotions that I had when I was 14 are, are different now. Right? And I'm kind of like, am I going to sing about being really stressed about work and? You know, being married for 11 years or whatever.

• 13:27Chris Williamson?

  Messages.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, exactly. My inbox is a nightmare.

• 13:31Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  But, um, man, I think for, honestly, most of us in the band, we've had one, individually, some of the hardest years that, at least that I've ever had in my life of, uh, yeah, I mean, I lost, we, we lost our, our manager, our booking agent. He died tragically in a, in a plane accident. Two days later, I lost my grandpa. One week later, someone broke into my house while I was sleeping. And, I mean, many other things that I probably can't really get into, but, um, I, I feel like it took me to low places where I, it was more than just like, heavy music is fun at the gym. And it's like, I viscerally, my,

• 14:14Speaker 01

  my emotions are viscerally connecting with this music. And it was a gift in a lot of ways because it, it allowed me to see through like the fans' eyes of what they're experiencing when they're hearing this music. Cause again, 33, I'm like, yeah, I'm just, hey, I like the song, the song's cool, but I'm, I'm a drummer. I'm not always listening to, to lyrics and like connecting. But yeah, I feel like I got to do that this year more so. And I, I do think like metal and rock has a little bit more of that, those themes to connect with.

• 14:45Chris Williamson?

  Especially if you're getting kicked in the nuts by life, which, you know, if everything's going great and Grammy nominations and we're on the road and ticket sales are going up, you know, how much are you connecting with the, it's kind of the like, um, golden prison, uh, like velvet fucking handcuffs thing that podcasters or comedians get accused of.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:09Chris Williamson?

  You know, if you're a comedian, Whitney Cummings got this great line where she says, in order for art to imitate life, you have to live a life. And this is why you can tell when comedians are getting too successful.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:19Chris Williamson?

  Cause all they talk about are airports, dinners and shows. Cause that's all they know.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:23Chris Williamson?

  You know, if you're, if you're touring 200 days out of the year. What life have you got to inject into the art? And I guess for you guys as well, if you, this is my problem with fucking Luke Combs, man. Like, I love that guy's music so much. He was the person that got me into, he was the soundtrack to 2019, which was the year I decided I wanted to move to America. But his music, to me, has got less resonant linearly as his life's got better. Yeah. I'm like, I, fuck it, do some cocaine, or like, get in a fight, or like, lose a leg or something. Like, I need some, you know? Yeah. I just want a little bit of sort of great, it's like, you know, everything's going great and I'm getting a bit older.

• 16:06Chris Williamson?

  And my dad's older than me, but he's really lovely and my wife loves me and my kid loves me. I'm like, fuck, Luke, come on, man. Yeah. And that's not to say that you can't make music from a happy place, but that, I don't know, there's something about the friction, I think, that causes people to dig a little bit deeper. Like, when you're going against the grain of life, it seems like people tap into emotion a little bit more acutely. Hundred percent.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, I think, I think on this record for us, there's a few songs that I had to go back and like, look at these events or these situations or these difficult times I had in the past and pick open some scabs that didn't really fully heal. And that, that also is finding, finding inspiration and looking back on some difficult times and hard times that I really haven't had, you know, any therapy to get through and just kind of just let it go for, for three or four years. So that's, you know, it's, it's not, it doesn't always have to be about what's going on in your life right now, but to look back and, and really, you know, someone put it once, I can't remember how they worded it,

• 17:12Speaker 02

  but it, it takes some time to look back and fully have a, a full thought or, you know, fully grasp what you went through. And that, that's something too, if I'm not, you know, we're trying to draw from the well of inspiration and looking back on a past failed relationship or, you know, past, you know, you want to call it trauma, um, to, to dig at those and, and really, it's very important for us to write music and every song have come from something. That has some real emotion and can be relatable to someone. And yeah, I think, I think that is a big challenge for artists when they start getting bigger. And, you know, they're playing arenas and, and, you know, ticket sales are going through the roof. And like you said, Grammy and I was all this stuff and it's hard to be relatable.

• 17:54Speaker 02

  And that's what, you know, growing up, I took a lot out of music and I found, you know, a lot of things to relate to. And when I was a, you know, teenager going through like, oh, the world hates me and no one loves me. And, and, uh, you know, once you get to that level, like, how, how do you, how do you still write music to relate to your fans? And, and, uh, yeah, for me specifically, it was like going back and like digging through some things I just didn't work out, you know? And I, yeah.

• 18:23Chris Williamson?

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• 19:08Chris Williamson?

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• 19:49Chris Williamson?

  I'm the guy that sings the words, but I'm the guy that makes the melody. But I'm like, I feel sad, but I feel ambivalent, but I'm uncertain. I've got, you know, I'm excited or whatever.

• 19:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:59Chris Williamson?

  And you're trying to, I spoke to the guys from Underoath. I think there's an increasing trend of solo acts masquerading as bands or bands that sort of perform publicly as a democracy. But in terms of production, it's much sort of closer to a dictatorship. And in some ways, I can see why that is a huge fucking hack. You don't have to do any of this diplomacy bullshit.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:24Chris Williamson?

  It's like, this is what the song's about. This is how the song's gonna sound. You wanna track on the record and help me cut it? Brilliant. If not, I got fucking 50 people that are gonna come and do it. Sweet.

• 20:33Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 20:35Chris Williamson?

  But you often have the opportunity to tap into different people's emotions. So is that, is that tough? You got, what, 10 tracks on a new album? You're like, it's not a lot of room for a ton of guys to get their creative, you know,

• 20:51Chris Williamson?

  presentation out there.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I think being with these guys for the last 10, 11, so years, it's, it's, that was a huge plus to sit down in a room and be like, well, okay, we start working on an instrumental for a song, let's say, and it's kind of pulling at this emotion and, you know, pull out some lyric notes. And, okay, this, this line that I wrote a while ago, this kind of feels like it matches the mood of the instrumental. And, okay, well, when I was in this headspace and, and there's certain songs we sat down, it's like, you know, I, I think I can really pull from this. And, you know, maybe, let's say it was a, a, a bad relationship I was going through years ago. And, you know, they were around me when that was going on. So it's not like super foreign to them. And sit down and kind of like write some lyrics down. And this is kind of what I was feeling. This is kind of what I was, what I was going through.

• 21:37Speaker 02

  And, and if you can tap into that and you have something similar, like bounce some ideas off each other and kind of like, we all. Kind of feel there's everyone's got, you know, unique stories, but there's some overlap. And if you can tap into that and and help, you know, generate some lyrics out of that, you know, I'm sure there's going to be something that overlaps. So, you know, I'm just thinking one song specifically, but.

• 21:59Chris Williamson?

  How do you have you ever contributed any lyrics ever?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Um, maybe a single word. Yeah. So we so we joke that we are business metal. And so that translates to the writing process as well, where it's like, we kind of have these different departments, right? So, um, me and John, I would say we're more in the instrumental department because I I'm not trying to play in a sandbox that I don't belong in, you know? I'm like, hey, I grew up like I played in so many bands. And even then it's like, I can write some like cool instrumental parts or like suggest cool things and obviously play drums well and write cool drum parts. I'm not a poet. I'm not like, I'm happy to talk about my feelings, but if you're like, now make it like artistic, I'm like, uh, I can hit things hard.

• 22:44Speaker 01

  That's my art. Um, and so, yeah, and then Steve and Eric are really good at like, yeah, like to Eric's point, me and John, really all of us in the room to contribute to the instrumental, but might set a vibe and that vibe might create an emotion in Steve or Eric of something that they've been dealing with in the past or recently. And the two of them will like, will almost sometimes separate. The two of them will like go in a different part of the room and just go back and forth. And sometimes it'll be Eric, like, here's what I'm trying to say. And the two of them will try to figure out, how do we get to say that in the most artistic way possible or the most authentic way possible? And then meanwhile, me and John will try to keep laying down like the foundation and come up with parts that we think are cool and then kind of come back together. And yeah,

• 23:29Speaker 01

  there are some times where I'm just sitting there, like watching them do their thing. And there are some times where Eric's just sitting there, like watching me be like, okay, move the snare drum over one note and then hit this symbol like the, you know, it's like, it can get very tedious, but yeah, it's a departmental for sure.

• 23:45Chris Williamson?

  When you, or when any band creates something deeply emotional and then performs it a few hundred or thousand times, did.

• 23:56Chris Williamson?

  Still resonate in the same way? Does that drop over time? Does it heal you? Does it reopen old wounds?

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's different songs and different points in my life and different performances. Let's say that, you know, some of these new songs you just started playing. I have been like, oh, God, all right. Don't mess up the lyrics. Remember, this is the first verse and second. Okay, here's the note you're hitting. And then, and I lose that for a moment. But, um, yeah, there's a certain point in the, in the tour that you start playing that song that I'm like, I'm reconnecting with it. And then after, you know, a couple of tours, you know, sometimes some of these songs are like, emotionally disconnected and I'm going through the performance and there's been some times where I'm look out and I see, you know, someone sobbing to a song. And then I'm like, brought back immediately to like, the emotion that I was feeling in it.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  And, and then all of a sudden, then I have a new, a new connection to it again. And I'd like to think after that, the, I performed the song a little bit better for the rest of the tour.

• 24:56Chris Williamson?

  So you feel, this is an interesting one. I was talking to Johnny Frank about this. So Bill Murray got that new More Than Hate track. And, um, they have just started performing it live. I think it only came out maybe six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, something like that. And, uh, I was talking to him last week in Dallas and he said, uh, dude, I gotta be honest, like when I'm performing the track, I'm so focused on the performance. Cause I've done it live like 15 times. And that's not a lot. That sounds like a lot, but that's not a lot.

• 25:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:25Chris Williamson?

  Um, so he is still finding new ways to mess up. And he doesn't know all of the potential pitfalls. And, uh, that I never really realized, well, fuck, like even if you've done a bunch of, like run-throughs and rehearsals or whatever, and even if you added half an hour on soundcheck so that you can like run new bits a few times over and over. The difference of, okay, and where am I going to be on the stage? And what's going to go on? So, yeah, I guess when.

• 25:52Chris Williamson?

  This is something I never considered as an audience member, and I hope I don't screw up everybody's ticket sales here. But if a band is touring a new album, and you have the choice between being at the start of the tour and being a little bit deeper into it, I think it's probably a good idea to push your tickets. You know, you can choose between, what are the Dallas or Houston show, but for some reason, because of the routing, they're coming to Houston four weeks later. Like, do you go to the, maybe you go to the second one? Maybe they're a bit tighter by then. Maybe they know the tracks a little bit more.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's also some excitement to being there in the early stages

• 26:24Chris Williamson?

  The high wire act.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  And seeing us like mess up and try like to do our best, you know?

• 26:29Chris Williamson?

  Yep, yep.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, man, it's like such an interesting balance of, like, tour life is exhausting. It's like, you might start at 100%. I mean, you know this way more than I do, even with all the shit you're dealing with. But like, you might start at 100%, and then, okay, the shows are very physical, and then you're sleeping on a tour bus very poorly, and then the shows are more physical and you're sleeping worse. And it's like, by the end of the tour, I might have 30% in the tank, and I'm working three times as hard to play the same part. So it's kind of this-

• 27:08Chris Williamson?

  The thing that you've got to balance the experience with the set with the level of gas left in the tank.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  Yes. And also, what you have in the earlier parts of the tour is adrenaline, which also will just like push you-

• 27:22Chris Williamson?

  Was to fatigue and resentment and boredom and-

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. Because yeah, then not only are you more fatigued, but you also are low on adrenaline because you're like, well, I'm kind of bored now. I know how to play everything.

• 27:31Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, nothing new.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I want that like shot of adrenaline. It would help me get through this physically. So it's a toss up a little bit there.

• 27:41Chris Williamson?

  Going back to the metal world of sort of rock ascendancy that we're seeing at the moment, do you think that you need to be really talented to be a sort of world touring alternative artist now? Basically, how much of it is talent? Or how much can you ride off the back of social media hype and good marketing?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  I had no talent when I was starting this thing. I didn't belong out here, man. I, I just took like, I feel like every room I was in, I was, I had this mentality, just be a sponge. Just soak up as much as you can. And I think that got me through the first, you know, years of touring and all that. But um, I do, I do think it takes, you know, you, you can go in off the hype and off the TikToks and off all that, but you have to quickly figure your shit out real fast. If you're up on stage and, and there's so many variables. You're not just posting a video you playing. There's so many variables of, of a live set. And I mean, even like the thing where I'm looking out in a crowd and I see up in the front row

• 28:48Speaker 02

  and someone doesn't know the words to the song and they're just, you know, fishmouthing like just random lyrics. I, I fucked up lyrics because I was looking at that guy. I was like, what is he saying? Oh shit, what am I saying? Oh, what verse am I in? Where am I? You know, but um, yeah, yeah, I think there's, man, I think there's a good mix. You.

• 29:11Chris Williamson?

  It's unforgiving then in that regard, like the hype can kind of only carry you so far.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd argue that you need a good product, right? So like you can, first of all, I'd argue that you need a lot of talent to be good at marketing and to, cause you're not the, the labels and all that, like they, they will provide that for you. But like, I ultimately think the bands that are doing the best are the ones who understand how to market themselves. So one, I'd argue that's a skill. Two, if the product is shitty, right? Like Chris, if this podcast sucks, but you're really good at marketing, like sure, you're going to get it in front of a few more people, but at the end of the day, people aren't going to come back and now you're working your ass off to just market a shitty product.

• 29:49Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  That's not really going to work. So like, I, I do think especially in today's landscape, like how it used to be is bands would get discovered by a label. They explode, like it's very, it was very gate kept, right? And, but if you were through, you were through and you, all you had to do is like show up and play music. And now you could upload a song to Spotify right now while we're having this conversation, put in a prompt into AI and then upload it to Spotify, right? So like the landscape is more competitive than ever, which I think means that bands who are not always like, there's plenty of very talented bands who don't get traction, but.

• 30:32Speaker 01

  It's very competitive. You need to have like very good songs, very good marketing. You have to be more well-rounded than ever. As opposed to, hey, I'm just like a good musician. That might not really get you noticed much.

• 30:46Chris Williamson?

  What do you make of the advent of AI artists?

• 30:49Speaker 02

  Oh, man, don't get me started. I um. It's it's it's a little frightening, man. You know, just came across a friend of mine went on a rant and posted all these bands on Spotify that were, you know, AI bands. And whether it's a band that's feeding prompts and getting it and playing it. Or to it's one guy that just used chat GPT, Grok, whatever, to create everything. And then you go look at the month of listeners and there's 700,000 monthly listeners. And it's it's not the fear that someone's gonna go, I'd rather listen to this AI band over, you know, a real human band. It's the fact that it's just gonna get slipped into playlisting and it's just gonna be on your playlist.

• 31:34Speaker 02

  And it's just gonna just accumulate more and more of all these other fake bands. And by the time you go and look through your playlist, you're like, oh, who's this? Who's this? Who's this? And there's no real musicians. But my ultimate worry is that. You know, who's to say that someone who owns a streaming platform? Doesn't just start making music off AI himself or herself and and feeding it into the playlisting. And now there's even less of the pie, you know, artists are getting, you know, fractions of a penny on the dollar for streams. Well, now that those playlists that these bands are fighting hard for.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Who's to say the the CEOs of, you know, Apple Music, Spotify, Tidal, whatever, aren't just making their own music? Feed it into the algorithm, putting in the place, you know, into the playlist thing. And now, how are we supposed to fight that?

• 32:29Chris Williamson?

  Be like, uh, OnlyFans owning the AI girlfriend generators.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:34Chris Williamson?

  You've got the distribution and you've got the source material as well.

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah, it's a tricky balance because.

• 32:41Speaker 01

  In one way, I'm like, you can't, very difficult to stop a train that's already moving. Right? But then also, kind of like what I was talking about with concerts, I'm like, I think people are craving more physical experiences or people to connect with, right? Like, I think, I think it'll be an interesting balance of like, yeah, an AI song could come on and you might not know it's AI and you might not really care that it's AI because it's like, oh, the song's good. But I wonder, like, even if that has like a huge boom, that it wouldn't end up going to the other side of like, yeah, but I kind of miss connecting with an artist or with a band or like what they actually had to say, you know?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  Or like, if it's AI, there's nothing to really, not much to really connect with, you know?

• 33:34Speaker 01

  All that said, yeah, I don't know. We'll see what happens.

• 33:38Chris Williamson?

  Well, look, I saw, um, what about two months ago? There was a bunch of screenshots floating around. Maybe it was the new terms and terms of service that Spotify had that sounded like an adjustment had been made to say that your music can be used in data training sets that can be reproduced in perpetuity with and without like credit, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, all of the legalese. And then I came across this, Spotify announced a collaboration with major labels, Universal Music Group, Sony Music, Warner Music Group, to build an AI-driven features while protecting artists' rights and ensuring fair compensation. Proactive move in the face of rising concerns about generative AI tools using artists' voices and sounds without proper licensing. Streaming giant Spotify states it will involve direct licensing and artist permission frameworks.

• 34:23Chris Williamson?

  The partnership signals industry acknowledgement of AI as both an opportunity and a threat. So I don't know where it goes. I certainly know that I'm getting delivered more AI bands in my radio. You press one single. I think I played, this is exactly what happened. I played the new Bad Omen song the day it came out. It was on the day we were filming with McConaughey. We'd finished up and I put it on through the, the system at Stray Vista where we film that shit. And it came on and then the next track came on and I was like, this is a really interesting sound. Funny little track. Like I'll go over and have a little look. I was like, oh, it's AI band. Like the first track, Omens, next track was them. That is fucking premier position.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:08Chris Williamson?

  Algorithmically.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:10Chris Williamson?

  And uh, it's picking up speed. I would say, but I mean, the, obviously the other, and you made a great point that if I use AI to enhance my songwriting and then cut the track myself with my bandmates,

• 35:29Chris Williamson?

  who knows?

• 35:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:30Chris Williamson?

  Like, how does anybody know where the initial inspiration for this track came from?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:36Chris Williamson?

  Like, hey, write me 20 number one hits in the style of Sleep Token and Bad Omens and I Prevail.

• 35:42Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 35:42Chris Williamson?

  And then you go, oh, well, maybe this, there's our next album.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%.

• 35:46Chris Williamson?

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• 36:29Chris Williamson?

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• 36:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really, it's really interesting that way because there is like, I would imagine that music would start to get a bit watered down. Could be wrong, but that would be my theory on it. And to your point of what you were reading, I think there's a lot of opportunity for like discoverability of like. I think I saw something that ChatGPT and Spotify are coming together. So I could just be like, hey, find me an artist who is really heavy and like good for working out. Right. And then they can feed me real artists. Like, that's actually a really cool opportunity where AI can actually support it. But yeah, it can be snuck into songwriting.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  I, you know, I feel like that's what the whole writer strikes were about a couple of years back in Hollywood is like not using AI for script writing. Cause I would imagine, I guess I don't really know if they are using it or not, but that everything would just kind of start to get watered down. But also AI is getting better and better. So will it really get watered down?

• 37:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, it enhances everything. I mean, here's another way to look at it. Everybody gets inspired by something, you know, the way that you construct your particular melodies. Well, it's because you grew up listening to Biffy Clyro or Billy Talent or whoever the fuck like weird. My Chemical Romance is first out EP or whatever the fuck it is. You go, okay, so do they own the inspiration that came through you? Obviously not. I don't think anybody would say that, but originality is just undetected plagiarism.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:17Chris Williamson?

  Is a kind of way that you play the drums. Well, you hold the sticks in a particular way. You didn't invent the way that you hold the sticks. You didn't invent the way that the drums are put together. So do you always need to pass it back up? And I think there's an interesting ethical challenge here of how much assistance is too much. And how much does it sort of feel like it's being perverted by AI? And how much is it just, well, it's just another tool. You know, it's fucking Pro Tools or Decapitator or whatever the fuck.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's that's an interesting slippery slope you get down because you know, you like to think that inspiration you hear, you know, like these bands you mentioned. Yeah, I loved all those bands and I took influence from them, you know, the style of music we want to play from from lyrics to melody and all that it's it's but it's something. It's something that was, you know, back then there was no AI. So it's something that they were inspired by. And then that band was inspired by and it just waterfalls down cascades down into our creative process and and then it's it's up to us to put it through our filter and use our own words and and and generate the same emotion or feel that we're going for that we were inspired by. But it all ultimately is through the human experience. And then you have the opposite where it's you just go to a computer and be like, I'm

• 39:35Speaker 02

  sad, write a sad song like My Couple Romance. And it's like, here's the options. And it's like, well, now I'm just picking and choosing. Like, I'm going down the grocery store and going, I'll take that one. I like that brand. I'll take that one. I'll take that one. It's it's, yeah, I it's like, where does artistry, where does artistry stop when you start using tools? But then at the same time, you know, Melodyne, you know, pitch correcting on the track or or, you know, when you're demoing songs and you you program the drums, you know, bands done that for the last, you know, 20 years and and you program the drums and oh, man, actually, let's track the drums. Well, the programmed drums, I think, sound better. Well, you run with it. And well, where's that line, you know, it's it's it's very blurred line right now.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  Does seem like every time there's been something that's come into the music industry that's like controversial at first, the convenience ends up winning out, right? Like, I feel like, you know, 50 years ago, the idea of someone writing a song, this is, we'd have to go back a little further, but someone, the idea of writing a song for someone else and that pop artist just taking it and then just singing what you gave me, I think was initially like, artists aren't even writing their own songs now. But now, no one, when Justin Bieber's singing a song, no one's like, did he write that? Like, no one cares. They probably think that he did. But most of the time, it's someone, here's a song, you have a good voice, sing it. Cool. And I can see that, yeah, to your point of then pitch correcting in the studio,

• 41:05Speaker 01

  but then pitch correcting live or then, you know, quantizing to make every, the timing of every instrument perfect. And then even samples of, oh, well, I can just take this sample and I can mess around with it, but now it's mine and I can like.

• 41:17Chris Williamson?

  We'll play to a click track. We'll have a click in our ears to ensure that everybody's at least on time, even if it's not quantized after the fact.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 41:24Chris Williamson?

  Rick Beato was telling me about how when digital recording first came in, and it meant that you didn't just have to do things in one take.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:33Chris Williamson?

  Tape.

• 41:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Chris Williamson?

  You go, well, I mean, that wasn't what they recorded. And I know that there's, if you are recording something and your finger just brushes the wrong string, you're like, hey dude, like whatever, fourth bar in on that second bit there. I just called it a little bit wrong. Let me just go in and then, bing, okay, there we are. Slot that one thing in there. Okay, so like you could play, and I think you can do this. You could play an entire track, one note at a time.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:00Chris Williamson?

  Just be like, okay, there's that note. I've got that right. And then I can go in and then we'll do it again and we'll do it again and we'll do it again. You've got this Lego brick building block.

• 42:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:09Chris Williamson?

  Set. And you've constructed a track. So, yeah, it's an interesting challenge. I mean, have you guys, do you guys use AI tools? Have they assisted at all with anything that you guys do?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:22Chris Williamson?

  Never. Fucking medieval.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, we're grandpas over here. No, the most is we'll be in the back of the bus and we'll think of a really stupid prompt for AI. And then we'll just be like, oh, AI, write a song about Eric falling down and his pants coming off and poop goes everywhere. And like, we'll see, we'll see what the AI spits out. But no, in our actual.

• 42:42Chris Williamson?

  Entertainment tool.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, exactly. Where do you see it? Like, do you feel any type of threat about AI in the podcasting space? Cause I know like AI podcasts are.

• 42:53Chris Williamson?

  Notebook LM does a really good job of it.

• 42:57Chris Williamson?

  I mean, you can now go and say, I want, I don't know whether you can say it for people, but you can certainly say, I want to learn about the final week of the fall of Berlin in Nazi Germany. Make the podcast 20 minutes long and relatively serious. And Notebook LM will spit out a very listenable with breath breaks and ums and ahs and laughter and all the rest of it. And it is, it's very listenable. My sort of position on this is that. Ultimately, the market is going to choose what's best for it. And that's not always great. Ultra-processed, hyper-palatable foods that calorie-dense. People will tend to choose those over something else. It's very difficult to get them to choose the thing which is better for them. Yeah.

• 43:42Chris Williamson?

  But when it comes to this, what's better for them is just what's most accurate, entertaining, educational. So it is going to be incumbent on whoever it is, whatever industry you're in, to just be better. Like, if you can be defeated by AI or a robot, I don't know what the leg is that you have to stand on to be able to compete with that. Now, there are certain things that you can do. For instance, you could go live. If you were responding live to messages and comments and stuff from people, that would be the equivalent, my equivalent of doing a show on stage.

• 44:20Chris Williamson?

  But even then, AI is just going to get quick enough where it's going to be able to render in real-time responses in video and then stream those back to people. So all you're doing is kicking the can down the road. Yeah. With regards to that. And I think you guys do have a good mote. I think all bands have a great mote around the main moneymaker, which is touring and sort of the associated shit that comes along with that. Because until the robots get as good as you guys on stage, that's not going to happen. I mean, the Chuggie Cheese Band was pretty sick. That was dope. Those robots were sick. That is true. Maybe your fucking demise is closer than you think. But yeah, I think there's a mote around that. And it'll be a fascinating few years.

• 45:04Chris Williamson?

  My, like, unpopular, really unpopular with musicians theory is that musicians believe that they have a, that they should have a special kind of protection around them because it's so hard to be able to do the basics of what you guys do. Anybody can sit down with a microphone in front of them and do a podcast. I mean, anybody can sit down and try and sing and like make a song, but... The barrier to entry is significantly higher. Like, you need to learn so much and practice for a very long time. And I think that a shortcut to a place which is not very far away doesn't feel like that much of a cheat. A shortcut to a place that's taken a decade or 15 years to get to feels much more unfair.

• 45:47Chris Williamson?

  And I think that this is one of the reasons that musicians have a particular bee in their bonnet around why AI needs some sort of restriction on it. It feels particularly unfair that the muggles, who haven't spent all of their time learning to sing or play drums or guitar or whatever, are just able to type some words in and then do something which is comparable. Whereas,

• 46:12Chris Williamson?

  as is being demonstrated right now, any idiot can do a podcast, right?

• 46:16Speaker 01

  You got us here, man.

• 46:17Chris Williamson?

  Any three idiots can do a podcast.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 46:21Chris Williamson?

  So it's about how can you sort of stay ahead? And you're not, I mean, if you think you're going to slow the behemoth leviathan that is AI, it's not going to happen.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:32Chris Williamson?

  So it's a case of how are you going to be able to adapt to it?

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And I try not to just like sit around thinking, well, it's unfair and I hope it doesn't do something bad, you know? Like, that's not, I don't think that's really going to take me to the place that I want to go in life. But yeah, to your point, it's like, okay, well, what's in my control? Because I can't control AI. I can control how well I show up or what I choose to spend my time focusing on that I think like is the biggest needle mover in my project or my skill set or whatever that is. But yeah, to analyze all of those things like is difficult, right? Because at a certain point, what got me in the band is not what's going to get the band bigger, right?

• 47:19Speaker 01

  If I spend all my time. 10 hours a day just practicing drums like if I if I get 10 times better at drums right now, the band will grow 0%. You know what I mean? It's like I got to a certain point where it's like, cool. I can do the job and I can do it well and I can be creative and try to stand out my own ways. But now what's the next thing that I can focus on that will actually take me to where I want to go? It got me the audition, which is very cool. But yeah, it's it's always that's always like a thing I'm trying to think about in my head is like, yeah, what now what?

• 47:56Chris Williamson?

  What are some of the other secrets that the music industry should be talking about, but isn't?

• 48:04Speaker 01

  I think that kind of like what I was saying of how competitive things are.

• 48:12Speaker 01

  It's not, for the most part, enough to just be a good band anymore. I think you need to be very multifaceted in

• 48:26Speaker 01

  having your departments in the business, right? So like, for example, if we use I Prevail, for example, we all do our music thing. We all have our own weird skills. This guy can yell really loud and that's like a cool skill, right? But for me, okay, like my department is cool. I can play drums, but I'm also have a ton of experience growing in organic content, media machine or team or whatever that is and marketing and backend business and growing the merch sales or whatever that is, right? And then we have our guitar player, Steve, who's very in like the accounting business management world. Yeah, he's a really good lead guitar player, but he's also like a nerd on Excel, right? And it's like,

• 49:12Speaker 01

  You you kind of have to have these like other facets that contribute to the overall project. And outside of that, I would just say, I used to think that being in a band was like showing up and playing drums and like performing and someone just like hands you a check and it's like, oh, cool. Like, thanks. I played the show. I got paid. See you later. But it's like, oh, actually, there are these nine different arms of how you can make money. But before it comes to you, it's going to go a percent of 10% is going to go over here for the person who booked the tour. 20% is going to go to just the general manager who just handles business stuff.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Then all of your music is going to get split into three different arms of publishing. And then people who try to put it on like frigging video games and stuff and whatever your Spotify cut is. And then how much goes to the label as opposed to the people who wrote the songs? And it's like this ginormous spider web of money going to a million different people. And then you're here at the bottom and you're just like, ah, I'll try to catch as much as I possibly can.

• 50:18Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  That is a, it's just so complex, right? Like for, I'm, I'm sure it's complex for you too, and I oversimplify it, but I'm like, you do a brand deal and they're like, cool. Here you go. Here's your monthly or yearly, whatever.

• 50:34Chris Williamson?

  Significantly more simple, but that is because I've done the equivalent of remaining independent as an artist. I'm not signed, I've never, ever been signed to any network. I'm not owned by a media agency. I'm not even signed. I don't even have an agent. So like, everything is just me. Everything is bootstrapped. Everything is bootstrapped.

• 50:54Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 50:54Chris Williamson?

  The tour that we put together bootstrapped, team that we put together bootstrapped, everything. Like, we booked our own tour manager. Like, this is not, yeah. So that means that there's a lot more effort that has to go in on the front end, but there's so much more control on the back end.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 51:09Chris Williamson?

  You're like, oh, the, something isn't working out with whatever partner this is, we, whatever member of staff this is, whatever contract we have. There's no obligation.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:20Chris Williamson?

  Beyond loyalty, which counts for a lot, but you know, there's no, there's less fuckery and it is, it is wild to see. People just want to go and hear good music from their band that are happy and healthy and playing a show. And hopefully well enough remunerated to keep doing it. Uh, and there's just a lot of holes in the Swiss cheese slice. Uh, that you don't get to see and I, I, I, I hope that it doesn't seem at the moment, at least the genres I'm interested in. You guys, uh, and your cohort doesn't seem like that many people feel like they're eating shit. Because I think live is going so well for so many people. Um, but yeah, if I was a big hip hop fan or something, maybe I'd feel differently.

• 52:04Chris Williamson?

  Maybe I'd be worried about the sort of upcoming hip hop artists and whether or not they can make money like they used to back in the day or something.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

• 52:12Chris Williamson?

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• 52:56Chris Williamson?

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• 53:18Speaker 01

  And you know, then the, the tough part about being in a band too, and I don't want to like complain about money. My, my, I'm not trying to complain about money. I'm just trying to say like, I think it's important to understand how the backend of the business works. And like, yes. Now you can be independent if you want to, like you can, like, there are plenty of Spotify artists who have, they made a good product, their song, their songs are good. And they develop the skill of organic content or paid ads or, I mean, probably not paid ads as much, but like, yeah, marketing themselves. If you have a good product and you can market yourselves and you can push people to the right, you know, whatever you want that to be, buy, buy tickets

• 54:01Speaker 01

  or go stream the song, like, you can simplify the whole process and just get really good at team building, which is what I assume is the skill that you've had to build to do it all independently.

• 54:11Chris Williamson?

  Horrendous at it, but yeah.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it is like, it's, it's this weird, like, for me, I look at how my life has gone and it, I grew up, everyone, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a drummer. And everyone's like-

• 54:24Chris Williamson?

  Was that what you said as a kid?

• 54:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 54:25Chris Williamson?

  Okay. What was the response when you said, I want to be a drummer?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  You're stupid. Like, I grew up in the suburbs of Michigan. We're still from there, but yeah, there's no, there's no professional musicians that I knew of coming out of Michigan. There are, but you've got Kid Rock, you've got Eminem, like, there's, there's some big-

• 54:45Chris Williamson?

  Uncle Cracker.

• 54:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, Uncle Cracker. There's some big players, but yeah, everyone's like, you're stupid. Go to, go to school, do, you know, go to university for you. I wouldn't say college, but,

• 54:58Speaker 01

  go, you know, go to college and get a degree in business. And I'm like, I don't care about business. I want to play drums. The ironic thing is that to be able to play drums professionally, I had to learn a lot about business. But then, you know, by my own accord, really fell in love with a lot of it. Cause it's like, I think any musician starts to love it because it's very challenging. It's very challenging to develop a skill in songwriting or singing or drumming or whatever that is. And then at a certain point, it's not, you've, you've never arrived. There's, you can always get better, but I think business has that same thing too, right? Where it's like, oh, now there's, now it's not just drumming that I have to get better at. If I, business is an umbrella term, you know, there's accounting, there's marketing, there's

• 55:43Speaker 01

  blah, blah, blah, blah. So there's endless things to-

• 55:46Chris Williamson?

  You have direct input on the lyrics that you write, the melodies that come out.

• 55:54Chris Williamson?

  You don't have the same with how well the accounts are put together. And if you negotiate the margin on the merch 10% off. Like, I always used to feel bad when I ran nightclubs in my twenties because I had this sense that my success, I could always excuse my successes away. I was like a Velcro for criticism, self criticism and Teflon for self praise. Because your contribution to the success of a business, anything really within the business operations, even if you come up with the best marketing tagline of all time, you're not the one that delivered it. You're not the one that chose how the audience responded to it. And you're not the one that said that the sales, whatever, created the page that had

• 56:37Chris Williamson?

  the conversion rate optimization that did the. And it meant that I always was more easily able to ignore where I'd done well with things like that. And I think one of the great things about what you guys do and what I think everybody needs in their life is something where a direct, it's almost one to one, input to output ratio of effort to reward is available. If you write a fucking slamming song individually or as a group, like you, that thing is yours and you made it directly. There was no molestation in between you and this thing happening.

• 57:20Chris Williamson?

  And I think a lot of the time, people feel out of control and out of connection with what's going on in their lives because there are so many layers of fuckery between them and the shit that is supposed to be the goal on the other side of it.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. And that's why I think as much as the business stuff has been enjoyable to really dive into and grow, like, that's why I'm still so happy that I'm a musician in a band because you do have these moments. Like with this last album we made, we blocked off eight months. We're basically Mondays from.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  Ten to six, we show up in the studio every day and we just walk in. We walk in not knowing what we want to create and we walk out with something. And that, I can't, I just don't have that in any other area of my life where it feels like pure creativity. And those short moments are like just so awesome, like driving home in your car, listening to this thirty second demo that you just wrapped up five minutes ago. And then the next, honestly, the next day on the way to the studio, you listen to it and you're like, actually, it sucks. But the drive home felt so magical, but now we have to improve it and you constantly, yeah.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  Eric comes in, it's like, yeah, that sucks, but let's do this. And then you're like, oh shit, that's awesome now. And every, it's just like, it feels like pure creativity and it's incredible.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy to think that you come in with, you know, five dudes come in a room and have, having talked about what we're going to work on today. And we sit down and you find some central meeting point and you just pull things out of thin air. And then you leave eight hours later going, we have a thirty second audio file. There's something that came out of nothing, you know, and that, that bit of creativity and feeling that reward is unlike anything else we have going on in our life, I feel like, you know, you, you come in with nothing and you leave with something that was created by a group of, group of friends that you're like, there, there was nothing before this and now we have this, this piece of art. And if, and you feel like you got something off your chest or you feel excited with the direction this thing is going.

• 59:42Speaker 02

  And then it starts shaping the record and then you're like, okay, well, we did this. What, what, what should, what should be the counterpart of this song, you know, what, what, we did something a little heavier on this. Let's, uh, just the whole creative process is, is so rewarding, you know, in that, in that sense.

• 59:56Chris Williamson?

  What have you learned about navigating a, a career in an industry that's ripe with burnout and crisis and recovery and stuff like that?

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Oh, man. Um, for me personally, being on the road specifically, uh, when we do like, you know, three and a half weeks in Europe and we have two days at home and then we do a six week, uh, tour in the States and then we're home for a month and we go back to Australia for three weeks. And then your, your time zones are all fucked up and, and being lost on, on tour, it just, you know, that, that burnout feel, you know? Um, for me personally, it's like trying to find those days off when we have them, uh, to feel like a human again. Like I'm, I'm big into, uh, some trading card games, collecting records and, you know, finding bars or coffee shops I've been to

• 1:00:48Speaker 02

  when we had a day off in that city prior. So to, to step away off the bus and go explore a city on my own or go meet up with some friends or other people on tour and play cards or, you know, find a bar, a record shop, doing something that makes you feel like a person again, uh, has definitely helped that, that, you know, four weeks into a, you know, seven week tour or whatever it is. It's like, feeling like a human again is very important. So having those hobbies and having those things to, to distract yourself from the, the, the mental fatigue has, uh, been huge for me.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think like,

• 1:01:24Speaker 01

  being on the road is a, a gift in so many ways and, you know, like a, a dream come true and also, right? Like life happens when, when you are on the road and you miss it. Like people die, right? Our, our, we've all lost family members while being on the road and finding out, I mean, for friends and family members. I mean, you'll find out a couple of hours before you have to go play. And you're like, okay, I just found out that a huge piece of my life was, is now gone. And now I have to go like in front of thousands of people and, you know, not that we played smiley music. So it's not like I have to like put on a smile, but man, you have to,

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  you have to get through some shit and that might be in the midst of.

• 1:02:15Speaker 01

  Tension in the band or overall fatigue from tour where you're like already you're physically drained, you're mentally drained, you're in your 30s, living with eight other grown men, men in a bus the size of this room for months at a time. You haven't seen your family for months at a time. Tragedy happens like it is a lot and I, and also like on the road, there have been so many of like, I think collectively our lowest moments,

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  but it's also coupled with these moments that are so unique that I personally could never get. And once it's done, it's done. Like, for example, like the creativity of creating a song. I'm just like, I won't, I don't think I'm going to find that somewhere else. Or performing in front of people and being like part of a collective experience. Like, sorry, Eric, I, there have been many moments in my time with the band where I'm like, is this really what I want to do? Like, I am exhausted from the chaos. I miss being home. I love being home.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  Like, is this really what I want to do? But I think there's these things where it's like, but once it's done, it's, it's done. And also, yes, like there are times where there's like tension in the band, but also you form, you trauma bond together as, as a group, you know, where when people really need it, like you are there for each other. And like, there's never another time in my life where I'm gonna have, be able to have sleepovers with my 30 year old bros. You know what I mean? But on tour, like every night, it's like after the show, I'll see you in the back lounge.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Silly bus time.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, silly bus time is what we call it. It's just kind of coming down from the adrenaline, cracking a ton of jokes and then going right to sleep. It's a sleepover, you know, but. Yeah, it's emotional whiplash all the time.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what you're saying about going up and having some kind of loss or turmoil back home and and trying to navigate that and then an hour later, you're going on stage. It's it's important, especially being the performer or singing the words, putting on the show to remember that, you know, this may be the one concert that that kid is going to all year long. Or this, these people, these fans, these this group is is trying to escape whatever's going on in their life, whether it's all the political stuff they're fed up with seeing online, whether it's their own family issues, whether it's lost, whatever it may be, this is their moment where they're coming for three, four hours to forget all of that and to have a good time, drink some beers with their friends,

• 1:05:08Speaker 02

  shout the lyrics back to to us and and and forget everything. So it's also keeping that in mind when we go on stage like this is just as much our moment having fun up here as your moment, you know, your once this month or once this year getting to to release or or exorcising demons in the pit or to just forget about all the bullshit that they have going on at home and then, you know, having to remember that when you're going through something yourself to go up there and go, all right, this is for them, you know, put put the show we call it putting getting into our showies like you're you got to

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Severance, it's your in and your outie, it's like our normie and our showie.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's time to zip into our show and and get out there and give give everyone the show that they want to they they deserve, you know.

• 1:05:57Chris Williamson?

  That's what's called being a professional, right? Like, you know, if you're a firefighter and you've had a big argument in a sleepless night with the wife last night or arguing or something, it's like I'm not equating rock stars and firefighters in terms of importance.

• 1:06:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:06:15Speaker 02

  Please, thank you.

• 1:06:16Speaker 01

  Because you're saying that we're more important, right? Yeah, okay, good, good. I just wanted to make sure.

• 1:06:19Chris Williamson?

  Significantly. But they they have to turn up and do a job. And I think it's good to think about it in terms of service. There's certainly, at least sort of from my side, looking from the outside in, because any job that's a lot of fun or that has just fun as a part of it, starts to see anything that isn't fun as a bug, not a feature. And you go, hey, yeah. I know that sometimes shit's hard, but for some people's jobs, all of it's hard.

• 1:06:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:57Chris Williamson?

  And the fact that, well, you know, I'm tired or this has been long. Or I'm whining to you about how many flights I've got to do this week. And tour, tour for me starts this week. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm going to go and do this thing with my best friends in cities that I love and get to see. And you go, well, I think this is why people have limited sympathy for traveling musicians that whine about how hard it is. Because they're complaining that some of the things are difficult. Meanwhile, most people's jobs, all of the things are difficult. They don't get the positive reinforcement in the way. It's like, you know, I, I struggle to sleep because the adrenaline is high. You go, well, some people don't ever feel adrenaline.

• 1:07:42Chris Williamson?

  Like, the reason that you've got that is because of how much positive reinforcement you got earlier in the night.

• 1:07:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Chris Williamson?

  Um, yeah, I, I guess. Something I'm interested in, you mentioned just like it's a sleepover with your bros in your thirties. Everybody's aging, right? Everybody's getting older. Uh, at least a bunch of you are married or in relationships, or maybe all of you are. So I'm interested in how you navigate that as everybody grows up. Because people have personal lives that aren't going to be as negotiable as they used to be. You don't choose when your kid's born. Your big band, tons of sperm, means lots of potential road bumps for people to navigate. So you're gonna have to say, hey, darling, um, I know that you're really keen on having a, a, a, a baby next year.

• 1:08:33Chris Williamson?

  The marriage, the wedding was wonderful. Thank you for allowing us to slot it in in between Australia and the, the second run on the U S tour. Um, we're not going to be able to start trying until late July. Uh, because we've got this new amphitheater run that we've got that's lined up. And, you know, I like, surely this is something that's in the back of your guys' minds as you start to plan your personal future. And then how does this work with blending the band?

• 1:09:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I'm going through right now, planning a wedding in next spring and, and just constantly reminding the guys like, hey, check the calendar. Uh, we got a tour offer. When is that tour offer again? Okay, cool, cool, cool. All right, I have a week, I can get married. But, uh, yeah, that's, that's, um.

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  I think it's something that we don't talk about, but we all feel and know it's in the back of our mind. Like our guitarist Steve just had a kid three years ago during when we were recording our last record. And he went off and Melissa had the baby and then they uh, we released the record and went on the road shortly after that. So, you know, missing the, you know, early, early years of, of his child's, child's life. And it's difficult trying to plan around life events, major life events like that. But, you know, we, we try our best between the, the five of us to plan things, the intimate parts of our lives and, and our, our little group. And, and, uh, you know, if someone's got to fly home for a weekend, we try to slot some, some times, you know, days off where it's okay.

• 1:10:03Speaker 02

  You can fly home this weekend. All right, cool. We'll meet up with you in, you know, three stops from now. And, but yeah, it's something that I think, I don't know if we have it mastered, but it's, it's something that we honestly struggle with. But it's something that is a difficult thing to, to have our, our personal lives and those huge moments. And, you know, having a kid or getting married or, you know, friends weddings, standing in weddings, whatever it may be is, uh, it's, it's a challenge. It definitely is a challenge.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's like you're, you're trading sacrifices, right? So in the early days, the sacrifices, I'm going to go out and tour for nine months of the year and make $12, right? That's the sacrifice and you make it. And then that, that stops to be, that stops being the sacrifice. It's like, oh, we're, we're touring, touring less and making more than $12. So, okay, cool. But then, yeah, as you get older, there's more sacrifice in it in a different way. Your parents are getting older, thinking about having kids. How, how do you navigate that? How do you navigate a marriage where it's long distance? That's pretty uncommon, but also in some ways like.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  I think with any sacrifice, it's difficult, but also there are gifts inside all of it. Right. Because what a lot of people experience, kind of like what you were saying earlier, is of like, oh, their jobs suck all the time. Like you are, you might always be with your spouse and never kind of have that opportunity to truly miss your spouse. Like, some people just never have the opportunity to actually miss their spouse, which is interesting. And there is like a gift in that of, I'm gonna be gone and I'm gonna have this opportunity

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  to desperately miss you and to have reconnection time, which yes, can sometimes be an adjustment. Right. For sure. I heard you talk to the Underoath guys about this, very relatable of, yeah, you might come home and your spouse is like, I was kind of used to living here by myself. Right. And now-

• 1:12:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Your partner is saying to you, I know that you've come back and you immediately want me to drop into this life that you've imagined.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Chris Williamson?

  But I've had to create a life where I can cope with the distance of you being away.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24Chris Williamson?

  Yep. So, yeah, I've walled myself off.

• 1:12:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Chris Williamson?

  A little bit. Yeah, maybe I'm not as soft or accommodating as you might like me to be.

• 1:12:33Chris Williamson?

  Because you've been playing shows for six weeks in front of a few thousand people and I'm fucking about on the bus with your friends.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And you, you're both coping in your own ways. Right. And I'm coping by laughing my ass off with my friends. Right. And in, yeah, this weird way where, and everything is kind of handed to you on the road, you know. But then, coming home, it's like, those coping mechanisms don't work in a marriage where it's like, yes, I want time and I want this and I want this. It's like, well, this is not really a marriage. Like, that's not a give and take. That's just a take.

• 1:13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  But yeah, I do think like, what that opens up then is more conversations to grow closer and be like, hey, like- This isn't actually working when I'm gone, or it's actually not working when I come back. Like, how can we navigate this together and use it as an opportunity to grow closer or to create systems in our family or any of my relationships to make this work better without completely overstretching both of ourselves and, you know.

• 1:13:43Chris Williamson?

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• 1:14:26Chris Williamson?

  Right now, you can get 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernd wisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L I V E M O M E N T O U S dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Yeah, I understand what you mean. The, the, the idea of the, the beauty of being able to miss someone is an interesting one.

• 1:14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Chris Williamson?

  How many months do you reckon you've been on the road on average for the last few years?

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  We've, as we've gotten older, we've tried to bring it down to around four months a year.

• 1:15:02Speaker 02

  Four or five.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Where my first year touring with these guys, I think we were gone for nine.

• 1:15:07Chris Williamson?

  So you're still talking now about, you know, three days out of every week. So you're only home for maybe four out of seven. Plus, there'll be travel, plus there'll be songwriting, plus there'll be rehearsals, plus there'll be all of the other stuff. So you're talking about, you know, if you, if you do a month with five, with everything else on top, it's probably closer to six.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:15:26Chris Williamson?

  So you're talking about three and a half days out of every single week that you're apart from friends, family, partner, kid, et cetera. It's tough.

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:35Chris Williamson?

  It's a, it's a fucking, you know, that was the fascinating thing, speaking to Aaron and Tim.

• 1:15:42Chris Williamson?

  Aaron said, did he get married and went on tour or had a kid and went on tour like three days later or something and just, you know, we've got to turn it around because this is what you've got to do. And it's an interesting question. Most people, when they're building a project, what they're looking to do is over time, do fewer things that they don't want to do. Almost everybody's goal in life is to say, I just don't want to do things I don't want to do anymore. Right? That's like where people want to arrive at. But there's an interesting challenge that I've been feeling recently, which is, what do you do when you start to get close to being able to actually making that a reality? Now, what does that look like?

• 1:16:25Chris Williamson?

  And it's difficult because you're used to working at this particular rate and you get reward and reinforcement at that same particular rate. But what was the point of touring for nine months? Every year for five, if you don't then drop it down to doing it at the pace that you want to. And then how do you know what the pace that you want to is? Because you're always going to feel high after you've come off stage. But then what's accumulating in the background? How many ruptures without repair have occurred in the relationship? How many missed weddings and degraded friendships and funerals that you haven't been able to

• 1:17:07Chris Williamson?

  deal with and thoughts that you haven't given yourself time to just sit with because you're in the chaos of the show and someone's bringing you cool new food and we're gonna go skiing today. We're in Salt Lake. It's gonna be great. Like,

• 1:17:20Chris Williamson?

  all of these things are these weird hidden costs that you pay kind of out the back here. And I see, especially with the age, and this is meant complementarily, the metal scene is not young. Yeah. It's not young. Like, you guys are a veteran band who are like, middle aged, I guess, for like metal stars. Yeah. Ollie from Bring Me must be thirty eight. I think he's about my age, thirty six to like forty or something like that. I think he might be my age, thirty seven.

• 1:17:58Chris Williamson?

  You're talking like, I don't know what Ronnie Radke is. Ronnie's gonna be like, you know, He's in his forties, I think. Ronnie's in his forty.

• 1:18:05Chris Williamson?

  Can you really still crank, you're like forty six, we're still cranking it. Four months on tour, you know, the kids are off to fucking like middle school. You go, oh, if you're not careful, you missed your life. You missed your life. You didn't just like do this thing when you were young and had fu- fucking under oath. Right? Like the guy, I mean, what was it that Tim said? He was like, I've got a fourteen year old daughter, but I only know her as seven. I missed half her life.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's the illusion that, it's the ever growing illusion that.

• 1:18:40Chris Williamson?

  One day you'll be done.

• 1:18:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm doing as much as I can right now so that I can retire at forty and have all the time.

• 1:18:50Chris Williamson?

  Fuck yourself dude, you're not retiring at forty.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  I know, I know, but I'm saying that's what the illusion is. It's that I'm gonna work really hard right now. I'm gonna get it while I can because you never know when it's gonna be done. You never know when it's going to end.

• 1:19:02Chris Williamson?

  I understand the haymaking season thing, I get it.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  But it's an illusion in a way, right? Like I.

• 1:19:07Chris Williamson?

  It's a horizon, every step you take toward it, it gets one step further away.

• 1:19:10Speaker 01

  And it's weird because I'm aware of it and I also play into it. And I, I feel like I can't escape it, even though I've been told and I see. And I'm like, I see that it's an illusion.

• 1:19:19Chris Williamson?

  In, in your defense, that's the same with junk food. It's the same with overusing your phone on social media. It's the same with staying up late every single night you've ever stayed up. I know I need to go to bed early, but you don't and you know the lesson and you can feel it unfolding in front of you. And then the next day you forget it and redo it again. You know what I mean? Like it's the same thing.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:38Speaker 02

  We're just simple creatures, man.

• 1:19:39Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  But yeah, yeah, that, that is a, man, that is something that, that is a little scary to think about sometimes where it's like. We've been doing this for eleven years and I, I look back and like, man, I remember that tour, that was seven years ago. That was, I was twenty three, I'm thirty four, like where did my life go? But then you're able to look around, you know, our, our house, like this house I paid for by screaming at people. And I have these awesome little trinkets on the wall, you know, whether they're a gold, gold plaque or a photo of us playing at Red Rocks or, or whatever and it's, it's. It's tough to tough to think that like you're saying it's the horizon just keeps going, it keeps going.

• 1:20:24Speaker 02

  When when when are we gonna be content? And I I don't, I don't know. I guess the only thing I can hope for is to build this up as as big as possible. So we can bring our loved ones out on the road more often. We can have these shared experiences more often out on the road.

• 1:20:39Chris Williamson?

  You're then asking a lot of your loved ones, right?

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:20:42Chris Williamson?

  You're saying, hey, honey, you know, your life.

• 1:20:44Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:20:44Chris Williamson?

  Um, how do you feel about not having it? Yeah. How do you feel about your life being? How about my life is your life?

• 1:20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a difficult balance. And also, like with with what you're saying of like, you missed your life. I'm I'm thinking about that and I'm like, maybe. I I see that point and I think there's something to consider there for sure of missing the people who you love. But I also think if I were to flip it, I think if I were sitting in my house, in my office or whatever, behind my computer all day, which I just do on the road. But I I think I might have the same thought of.

• 1:21:24Chris Williamson?

  You missed your life.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  I'm missing my life. I'm wasting it in the same place every single day, doing the same thing every single day. Like, I think it's, yeah, this, you just want what you don't have.

• 1:21:36Chris Williamson?

  Choose your rights, dude.

• 1:21:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:37Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so, so true. You've nailed it.

• 1:21:42Chris Williamson?

  Everybody assumes the thing that's missing in their life is the thing that they want.

• 1:21:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:45Chris Williamson?

  And we are like that.

• 1:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:49Chris Williamson?

  In our ability to be able to wish the grass is greener despite the fact that we were on the other grass only a week ago.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Chris Williamson?

  I'm I I I know that it's the fact coming back from tour. You've just finished tour. You're like, thank fuck for that. Oh, my God, I'm so tired and I just want to lie in bed and I just want to like cuddle my wife or do whatever. And then seven days later, you're like, I'm bored.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:11Chris Williamson?

  This sucks. I'm bored. I want to be like, I'm not doing enough. I should be in more cases. You're like, you just did a seven week tour. And I think this is the same. Everybody feels.

• 1:22:21Chris Williamson?

  It is sort of part of the human system to always feel like you're not doing enough. And that not doing enough can be not doing enough peace and also not doing enough work. And yeah, mark of a good nervous system, I think, is one that can adapt to both without feeling like it's missing the other.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Chris Williamson?

  And you're like, oh, and like, I'm just, I'm okay with this.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:45Chris Williamson?

  I feel like I'm okay with this.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  I know, um, I've heard Hermosy say like something, I'll paraphrase it of like,

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  the grass is always greener on the other side, but because there's a bunch of shit on my side. But there's also a bunch of shit on the other side. It's just different shit. Like, what shit do you want? Because there's shit on both sides, right? And I think we view other people's life through rose colored glasses, right? I'm sure, Chris, most of your audience would be like, if I could have Chris's life, where I'm talking with interesting people all the time, doing big shit. I got this sick drink company called Neutonic.

• 1:23:22Chris Williamson?

  Tasty.

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so good. I don't know which one my camera, is this my camera?

• 1:23:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:26Speaker 01

  So good. So good. Yeah, wait, sorry, I'll figure it out. Anyway, I'm sure a million people would be like, I want Chris's life. Yeah, sure, he's got health problems. Yeah, sure, like it may have been a couple, a rough couple of years, but they kind of just overlook that part, you know what I mean? And they, would they still take that trade? Maybe. But I think, again, yeah, we, we look at, we look at other people's lives and are like, I would take, I would take all of it because the good thing seems so good that all the shit with it is worth it. And maybe sometimes that's, that's true, but.

• 1:24:03Chris Williamson?

  People find industries that work for them, right? Like if you're not that much of a touchy feely affectionate person, well, you know, I would be at home, but I wouldn't like, the wife's got her thing going on. We might not be hanging all that much in any case, so I might as well be away. Right? And that's why you see. I I I wrote this essay a little while ago about people who have the the talent, but not the constitution to become very successful. Lewis Capaldi was my sort of canonical example of this until he came back and smashed it at Glastonbury this year. I'm really, really happy for him.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:24:41Chris Williamson?

  Lewis Capaldi, great example of phenomenal voice, phenomenal songwriter, but someone who suffered so badly with performance anxiety that he went out on the main stage at Glastonbury not long ago and couldn't get his words out. And he's got this, he's developed this sort of Tourette's like nervous tic from how much pressure he's applied to himself. You go, how unfortunate to be someone who's so perfectly constructed. It's like having a really fast engine put into a Honda Civic. It's like a V12 engine. So you have all the power to be able to drive real fast and none of the control to be able to direct it.

• 1:25:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Chris Williamson?

  And um, that is a a unique kind of pain. Where you go, fuck, like the thing that I want to be a world-class recording artist, touring musician, or or or what a fucking soldier or sports star or whatever. I have all of the capability. I just don't have the constitution to be able to handle maybe the pressure that comes along with it, or the work rate, or the travel. But you could have really sensitive circadian disruption, like in your sleeping pattern. And that would mean you could not be a touring artist. Or like it would just take such a toll on your health that your expiry date would be would be pretty snap close.

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:54Chris Williamson?

  And um, yeah, you're right. There there will be bits of shit on either side of the fence. And what is the price that you want to pay in order to have the life that you admire? Is a fucking really good question about that.

• 1:26:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. I've heard you say about life on the road and missing funerals, missing friends and birthdays. There's this Keith Urban thing, The Road on CBS at the moment. First episode came out this week. So during the premiere episode of The Road on CBS, Urban opened up about the difficulties of life on the road as a touring musician. It's a calling and you're born to do it or you're not gonna make it, he said. When you wake up on a tour bus at three thirty in the morning and you're sick as a dog, you're in the middle of nowhere and you've got to play your fifth show later that night. You haven't slept and you miss your friends and you're missing your family. And you're completely lonely and miserable and sick. And you say to yourself, why am I doing this? Urban, who recently split from estranged wife Nicole Kidman, continued. The only answer could be, because this is what I'm born to do. We're going to find out who's made of that stuff.

• 1:26:52Chris Williamson?

  And we're going to find out who's made of that stuff is to do with being on the road. Really interesting that someone who recently split from his estranged wife is sort of being used as the, and look, if you too are sufficiently successful, this could be your life also. Like, really does show how narrow the aperture is that we perceive success through, right? It really is. I, it doesn't sound to me like, well, I mean, it's a, a public interview. So how, how would you know? It's not quite the place for someone to drop into their emotions. It doesn't particularly sound to me like Keith Urban would say, I would rather give up my touring or have not toured at all and still have my marriage to Nicole Kidman.

• 1:27:37Chris Williamson?

  But who knows? Maybe in retrospect, he'll think something differently. And yeah, the prices that you pay, the things that you miss in order to do the thing that you love. It's different with you guys versus, um, like some person that works offshore on an oil rig or a soldier, right? Because it's not too dissimilar. They do tours, different sorts of venues. But I think people feel differently about that because that feels like more of a obligation. Yeah. There's a nobility. Yeah. Attached to that. There's some, there's a, you guys get less sympathy because you're like fucking about. Yeah.

• 1:28:15Speaker 02

  Champagne problems, man.

• 1:28:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:28:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I, I do have, um, I do have some sense of guilt sometimes where I'm like, how dare I feel so bad right now? Like, um.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like one of the first times I went through something hard on the road was uh, one of my best friends and uh, living at, living at my place with me, um, took his own life, um, right before we uh, walked on stage in Pittsburgh and that was like the first time that I, I like allowed myself to like feel, feel bad about yeah, missing things like when it was a wedding or something. I was like, it's like, oh man, I'm just, is this really, I'm, I'm getting to live my life and my dreams and, and do these things and like, I don't, you know, shame on me for, for feeling any type of

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  way, but when, when that happened, that was like the first time that I was like, no, it's okay. It's okay to feel bad. And like it's, you know, man, sorry, I'm getting thinking, thinking about that time. That was really, really tough, man. But then on the outside, like I said earlier, you just have to suit up and go out there and play and, and uh, remind yourself how, how lucky and blessed you are to be doing this. And um, yeah, over, over the last few years, I've, I've tried to balance that, like, sense of guilt of uh, living my dreams, let's say, over, you know, missing the funerals and the friendships and, and planning, oh, okay, well, I go back and just have to rebuild that relationship

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  or they understand, my, my family understands that I'm, I'm out here doing, doing big things and, and trying to, trying to live my dreams, but it's, it's, it's, it's always a challenge. It's always a challenge going out on the road and being gone for so long and, and then looking back at the things you're missing, but then all, you know, reminding yourself like, this is what you signed up for, you know, how lucky are you that a fraction of a percent of people get to do this and enjoy while you can, because tomorrow it could just be gone, you know, AI could take over, you know, we're just done.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's um,

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  it's tricky to balance the responsibility of

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  You have a, you have a group of thousands of people who paid, you know, however much to,

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  like, get a release from whatever they're going on in their, their life. And we are kind of like, pioneering that ship in a lot of ways. Like Michael Jordan, you know, has that. I actually don't remember what the quote is, but there, there's that like infamous game where he's puking on the sidelines, but he's still playing because he's like, this might be the only time someone gets to see me and like, they, this could have been their past two weeks paycheck to be here. So I'm going to play. I'm going to, to, no matter what, like be here. And so I think it's balancing that responsibility, while also not becoming,

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  not valuing their validation in an unhealthy way. So it's like you have a responsibility to them, but I think some people, I can't speak for Keith Urban, but like, I think some marriages can fall apart because a lot of artists are desperate for validation. I mean, we're, we're putting ourselves on a stage in front of people, screaming our, our name, not my name, because I'm the drummer, but screaming your band's name. And it's like, yeah, those group of people like, probably want a little bit more validation because of X, Y, and Z in our childhood, right? But I think that's when relationships, marriages can fall apart because you're so desperate for the validation from strangers as opposed to the places that

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  it actually matters from.

• 1:32:10Chris Williamson?

  Bro, I, I think so much about how sad it is that some people got one-shotted with status games in high school and never grow out of them.

• 1:32:24Chris Williamson?

  Like they just need to be. Accepted by the cool kids, even if the cool kids were a bunch of strangers on the internet.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Chris Williamson?

  And they just, you can see, I think they cycle through life ignoring or almost feeling an ick or a kind of allergy to anybody who gives them free and available love. It's like, oh, if you're giving me something, you're offering it to me without withholding it, without there being a price attached. You just, oh, you seem to just like me for me. What's wrong with you?

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:00Chris Williamson?

  No, you're supposed to make, you're supposed to reject me or not want me. You're supposed to make me hurt for it or something. And that's a pattern that is really unfortunate because it's going to cause you to ignore the very thing that you want. You're going to disregard the very thing that you're trying to get, which is someone to just see you.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And that can also be a good thing, though, because some of those people don't actually really see you. You know, if you're like dating someone for a long time, yeah, they probably really see you. But if someone who doesn't know you and is like trying to pour this validation your way and you really receive that, which there's a healthy degree, but there's also the other side where it's like, well, you don't actually know me. You might be a fan of our songs, our music, which is really cool, but like, if I, if I take all this praise, that's where I think ego can get really dangerous. And we've seen so many people go down that path.

• 1:34:03Speaker 01

  Where you just accept all of this praise from people who don't know you. But then on the, on the same side, that's when like oftentimes their downfall is because with any, almost any rise, there's going to be a time where, well, okay, you got big enough. Now the only thing left to do is to turn on you. You know what I mean?

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  I feel like it's kind of a tale as old as time. And then you have your period of time where people turn on you and you weather that storm. And then people get bored of turning on you and they go, okay, well, now they're down to like, let's lift them back up. Now they have somewhere to go again, right?

• 1:34:39Chris Williamson?

  So I think that's so right. And you can almost see it in these little cycles.

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:45Chris Williamson?

  Up and down. And I think everybody has, anybody that gets to a size has to have an ascendancy, right? That's why you get to the size. Everybody has to have a. Moment where they Icarus it a little and it is just whether or not they managed to pick back up on that one. And after that, I mean, you can obviously completely like Tamakazi yourself if you do something wrong. But after that one typically, I see very few people that just keep going up. Like almost everybody has one dip. So it's like, okay, get ready for the dip.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:18Chris Williamson?

  I guess with you guys, how has the, how do you define your guys' identity as a band now? That the lineup's changed, that the dynamics evolved, that the sounds evolved as well.

• 1:35:36Chris Williamson?

  The reason I think about that is artists, podcasters, comedians get, they capture attention for doing a thing well.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Chris Williamson?

  There is a temptation to just do that thing again.

• 1:35:52Chris Williamson?

  And there's been a lot of change from you guys' last album to this one. You're stepping up into full vocalist, doing everything mode, plus an evolution in terms of sound.

• 1:36:03Chris Williamson?

  I'm interested in what, like how you think about sort of identity of the band and not being trapped by what you did before, but staying true to your roots, but not being behold, you know what I mean? Like, how do you navigate all of this?

• 1:36:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's a, it's a challenge that we're finding out right now, learning as we go. But yeah, I think it's difficult on a personal side because you think you haven't changed. Individually, we haven't changed. The writing is still, we're still writing and not from the outside, a lot's changed. On the inside, maybe not so much. So when you hear and see, you know, whether it's fans or fair weather fans or whatever that are like, oh, it's a whole different band. It's different. It's not, it's like, well, we don't feel that different. We know there's a change, but we don't feel that different.

• 1:36:57Speaker 02

  So that, that's been a very difficult thing for me personally is like, you know, I've been writing in this band since day, day one, and now all of a sudden I feel like a stranger to my, my own band just from the perception of a couple nameless people out there, you know? And it's, it's been, it's been a struggle personally, but.

• 1:37:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, how do you feel about this?

• 1:37:23Speaker 01

  I think our identity is, it is shifting. Like, I think to what you were talking about earlier, you have this, um, you have a, a lot of times there are like these bands with certain dynamics, right? And like, no doubt, the dynamics are now different.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  And in a lot of ways, with that, with that change, we've kind of leaned in to the different a little bit from the standpoint of like, how we are trying to interact with each other as a group and trying to, uh, nourish our relationship with each other as much as possible. But in some ways, it's,

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  I keep talking about gifts, um, but like, there, like you said, the thing that got us here, we don't even, in some ways, our, our sound is naturally now different. So we don't even have some of, like, that option to go back to of like, well, we did this thing. And it's like, well, no, no matter what we do now, it's going to be different. And so we have to, or we get to reanalyze, like, what do we want to be moving forward? What do we want to be to each other? How do we want to be with each other? What do we want us sound to be? It kind of, um, breaks open your life in a new way.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  I liken it to, yeah, a relationship where you have a relationship with someone for, for 10 years. And after a certain period of time, it's like, hey, I actually think you want this and, and I want this. And we're going to move in those separate directions. And it is a time of self-discovery. You know, the interesting thing about it is that most people in a relationship, they go their separate ways. And there's pain there for sure, but it's kind of up to you to.

• 1:39:30Speaker 01

  Ask yourself, what do you want next? In a band situation, it's interesting. It's like, it's almost like you have a big family around you saying, well, I actually liked you better when you were with that person. And I actually want you to do this. And it's like, well, okay, like, I appreciate the feedback, like, understood. But I kind of have to go on this journey. I hope that you can come on this journey with me. Because my, my family, my fans, you know, the metaphor. You're very important to me and you've been with me this time. I would love to continue in a relationship with you guys also.

• 1:40:09Speaker 01

  Please have a little bit of trust in me that like, I'm gonna reinvent myself in a way where I'm gonna try to grow from this experience and do what is authentic to me and us. And yeah, that's kind of what the process has been like. And yeah, no, no doubt there's been a ton of challenges in it, but damn, do I think we've, we've grown a ton from it? Absolutely. And really excited for what that, what the path is for us moving forward. I mean, I'm so stoked on this record. Chris, I, you, I told you to let me know if it's shit and you didn't let me know. So I'm just assuming.

• 1:40:48Chris Williamson?

  It's, it's great. I thought.

• 1:40:49Speaker 01

  I'm just insecure. I need more validation, like.

• 1:40:51Chris Williamson?

  Please strangers on the internet, tell me that I'm good enough. Fucking millions of people here are not enough.

• 1:41:00Chris Williamson?

  What I thought was interesting with what you guys did, and I think

• 1:41:05Chris Williamson?

  not convinced that Sleep Token quite did this. It'll be interesting to see what Omen's third track comes out tomorrow, I think.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Oh, does it really?

• 1:41:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:14Chris Williamson?

  What you guys did that was really interesting was you chose three very different tracks from the album. And I thought that was kind of unique. I would say President did a not bad job with releasing ahead of their EP. I thought that was good in terms of the sequence. I did find a couple of them a little samey and I might've hot swapped one of them. I thought Conclave was actually maybe a stronger track that was like hidden deep in the EP and they could have brought that out. Omens, both of their tracks have been a little samey, but fucking like, obviously fucking brilliant. She's great. And I thought he was interesting. I've, I've had this idea in my mind for ages about.

• 1:41:54Chris Williamson?

  You as a band decide that you're gonna put out two or three or four singles and then you drop an album. So presumably you have an idea about what your best foot forward in some regard looks like, or at least your best foot forward as a collective. When you take these three, this is an indication of what the longer record's going to be like. But then you put it out on Spotify and the fucking audience gets to decide. And you're like, track eight? Really?

• 1:42:22Chris Williamson?

  You motherfuckers, really? The fucking acoustic track. Are you kidding me? Or whatever, right? They picked the thing.

• 1:42:29Speaker 01

  Well, that's actually the case here, yeah.

• 1:42:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I checked this.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Okay, I was gonna say it's way too specific. Yeah. No, it's weird, dude. It's like, we, like I said, we've been writing this. I mean, man, the writing process was just eight months, but then we recorded it, then we mastered it, then we mixed it, then mastered it. And, I mean, all in, yeah, a year and three months or something like that of just pouring our souls out to each other, you know, a few guys in a room. And it's like, I think this is sick. Is this sick? I think it is. I don't know, is it? And.

• 1:43:06Speaker 02

  All like getting lost in the sauce.

• 1:43:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, 100%. And we're like, we're removing tracks. We're like, this song actually sucks. Like that song, we, we wrote and we're like, it's not gonna make the album. Like, it's different. Like, it's just an acoustic song. Like, when are we gonna do that? And Eric was like, uh, he didn't say this, but he felt so, he's like, guys, if this song's not on the album, I'm gonna leave. Like, he wasn't really, but. But yeah, so it's weird. It's just weird, like, the insecurity just starts to like build of like, well, let's just, let's move this one out. I don't know. And then two months later, you're like, let's bring it back in. Like, I haven't listened to that one. And you're like, oh, it's actually really good. But, yeah, then you get this like confidence. Once you like have written the whole thing, you're like, I see this as a work of art. I'm really excited to release it.

• 1:43:54Speaker 01

  Then, once you've written it, the insecurity starts creeping up again.

• 1:43:58Chris Williamson?

  Fuck, I knew we should have put track eight in.

• 1:44:02Chris Williamson?

  What, um, for a normie like me, what is the sort of number of tracks that you've cut that didn't make a 10 album record, a 10 song album?

• 1:44:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think we had like three or so, maybe that got to a second chorus in my.

• 1:44:20Speaker 01

  I think, I think four or five.

• 1:44:22Speaker 02

  Four or five.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  But then, don't forget the seven songs we wrote even before scrapping all of those.

• 1:44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, true. Good point.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  So probably another 10 songs.

• 1:44:32Chris Williamson?

  Right. That still seems relatively lean to me. That seems like a pretty good hit rate, right? To write one in two songs makes the album, makes Mastard fucking out there.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:47Chris Williamson?

  That seems like, I don't know, is that?

• 1:44:49Speaker 01

  It might be. Yeah, I feel like every band has something a little bit different. The, the interesting thing with us is that like, yes, let's say one in two songs, but the song that you know it now has also taken six different forms. Where it's like, oh, well, the chorus was actually different and verse two is actually a completely different part. We rewrote the bridge three times. And so I think as long as we have a nugget that we think is good enough.

• 1:45:15Chris Williamson?

  We're building it around something.

• 1:45:17Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. If we're like, oh, this chorus is sick. Let's keep going back to it. Let's keep going back to it. Let's keep going back to it. And the nice thing is like, you get to see if it stands the test of time.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:45:27Chris Williamson?

  Like, that's what I mean about when you put it out there and the audience gets to choose. Because that's also, in a really hilarious way, kind of going to determine what the live set looks like. Because if song eight, the acoustic song, eat shit, and you go, wow, I mean, there's fucking no chance that we're playing that live. But if there's the prospect of, oh, fuck, like, this is, it's a most played track on Spotify ranked at the moment or whatever.

• 1:45:55Chris Williamson?

  We have to do that. Fuck, we have to do this. No, like, oh, yeah, whatever, right? But it's cool. It's cool. Cause you've had this idea. Look how clever I am. I know my, my release in advance. I'm gonna do my little singles. I'm gonna make them come out in the right order. And then you put the fucking thing out and then. All of your fans just go fuck you dude, I'm gonna choose what I want.

• 1:46:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:15Chris Williamson?

  I think it's so cool.

• 1:46:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's uh, it's honestly a challenge, but it's like, we start writing the record, then you start fantasizing about the future, like a year, year and a half from now, you start, okay, well, when we do the headliner, you know, we're gonna open with this song, imagine the set opening like this, and we roll in this song, we pull this deep cut out from two records, go, and that goes third, and then we've learned quickly, after the last record, we were like, this opening track is gonna be the opening track to the show, and then the album's been out for a couple of months, and maybe less than that.

• 1:46:45Chris Williamson?

  One month.

• 1:46:46Speaker 02

  A month, and you go out there, and people are excited to see you, and they're excited to see some of the new stuff, but they wanna see that, that record that they grew up on, or whatever it may be, and then you go out and you play that first song, and you're looking in the crowd, and no one's singing it, because they don't know the words, and you're like, oh god, this is gonna be a rough four minutes.

• 1:47:02Chris Williamson?

  You go to educate them.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  To get to the next one, so, so now it's like, you know, we have these little nuggets of ideas, like how the set's gonna be, you know, when we go out and tour, tour this new record again, but, you know, you gotta let the fans pick the songs, and then you see the, okay, these songs are popping off, hell yeah, we get to play these, well, where in the set should we play, and we don't wanna blow our load early and play all the cool stuff in the first half, and everyone's sitting, like, you know, it's building the sets like, you know, taking that emotional roller coaster, you know, we have so many different sounds and different emotions through, through our lyrics and moods and all that, and you don't wanna put all the heavy stuff right up front, you don't wanna save all the energetic stuff till the end, you know, it's building that dynamic roller coaster.

• 1:47:46Chris Williamson?

  Journey feel like to go on, so, let me give you this, right, for, just in case you guys thought that you had it hard, the way that I have to put together a live show,

• 1:47:56Chris Williamson?

  I come up with ideas in the most sterile environment possible, just on my own, maybe it gets clipped and put on the internet, I have an indication that some people think it's cool, or maybe not, who knows, then, when I go and test it live, there's no sound, right? Because the single best thing that can happen at a, unless it's standup, and there's some bits of standup, but that's not the meat and potatoes of my live show.

• 1:48:26Chris Williamson?

  If I'm gonna go and do this, like, the best thing that I can have is pin drop silence.

• 1:48:31Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah.

• 1:48:32Chris Williamson?

  So I'm inverting what every live artist throughout history has ever tried to go for. I want the most si- I want deathly quiet.

• 1:48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:42Chris Williamson?

  And then like hanging on what the next bit of the story or the word is going to be. I'm like, was that more quiet than the other bit? Like, I have no fucking idea. And then people finish up and they go, I loved the bit about the man that fell over on the, on the street, or whatever the fuck it is that someone comes up with. And I'm like, I'm trying to aggregate that is, uh, for me, you know, a, a, a real interesting challenge. I've loved the live element. I've loved being able to put together a set, not too dissimilar to the way that you guys do. I've got like tracks, I've got insights and ideas and I can piece these together in an interesting manner that hopefully takes people on a journey and I don't wanna have all of the funny stuff up front and I don't wanna have all of the sad boy stuff at the end.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:21Chris Williamson?

  You know, so on and so forth. You'll see on Sunday in Toronto.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:24Chris Williamson?

  Um, but the fucking feedback mechanism, dude.

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:31Chris Williamson?

  Is like, I don't know, I feel like a MI6 H R, Sherlock Holmes. Trying to reverse engineer what it is that the audience is thinking about.

• 1:49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:40Chris Williamson?

  Are you enjoying this? Do you like it more than the last bit? Who fucking knows?

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  What does the, uh, what does the silence represent to you?

• 1:49:47Chris Williamson?

  Tension.

• 1:49:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:49:49Chris Williamson?

  Presence.

• 1:49:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:50Chris Williamson?

  Like real, like, I, I, there's bits that happen. I haven't got enough of them in this one, but the next show, which is Australia, New Zealand in, uh, March, um, and then Bali, uh, I, there's a couple of bits where people catch their breath, where you hear like a, like that. And I'm like, oh, that's fucking cool.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  That's sick.

• 1:50:13Chris Williamson?

  Like, especially given that the room is fucking pin drop silent. And then you hear this like collective depressurization of the whole room. Cause everyone just gasps a little bit and I'm like, oh, that's fucking cool.

• 1:50:23Speaker 01

  Dude, yeah.

• 1:50:23Chris Williamson?

  Um, and then there's like laughy bits and I've got some new, uh, I tested, I did the final work in progress show last night and, uh, tested some new stand up bits and they fucking destroyed. They were so much fun.

• 1:50:36Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:50:36Chris Williamson?

  They're like, there's some of them that are way too spicy for me to feel comfortable saying in like. I tested some Canada stuff and I'm like, I can't do that in Canada. And I tested some America stuff and I can't do that in America either.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  Flip them.

• 1:50:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, but it's it's real interesting and I've I've very much appreciated getting to watch. You guys and everyone else. Like, how much attention gets paid to constructing a set? I was with fucking Sam and Dan from Architects. Jesus fucking Christ, dude, like they pay so much attention to like every little bit. Transitions, bits in between songs and.

• 1:51:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, you're just some fucking dude in the crowd bopping away, having a good time. And you don't realize, oh, they played like they played the song from the old album or whatever. And you go, yeah, do you realize how many conversations? And like tens of hours were had just about that one bit.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:51:31Chris Williamson?

  Of that one section of that show that you went to. It's crazy. It's so cool. It's like it's it doesn't just effortlessly happen. You're kind of like a comedy set, right? Like, there's all of this work that goes into it to make it seem effortless on the front end.

• 1:51:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, we're already talking about, you know, this this winter. Getting together and, you know, just, you know, doing some creative stuff, whether it's like demoing or whatever it may be. But it's a live show. We're planning our live show and we're planning on, okay, well, if we're gonna play this song. What's the kind of cool interlude or how does it go from this song to this song? Okay, there's a guitar change, so we need to eat up some time. Well, maybe I'll talk over that part. Is it gonna be dead silent? There's gonna be music under it. Is it gonna be, you know, and then start talking like, well, how can we spice up these old songs? We're gonna extend the bridge.

• 1:52:18Chris Williamson?

  That's great jokes about America and Canada, if you need to throw something.

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  But yeah, it's, um, yeah, a lot of a lot of thought goes into that. And I think that's what makes these shows even more special. I've seen Architects a handful of times and if I wasn't in the shoes I am now. I probably wouldn't have realized all the little details, but yeah, you can you can tell if you if you're looking for it or you're you're paying attention to the whole the whole set. You can tell that they've put in a lot of work.

• 1:52:50Chris Williamson?

  Based on your experience, who do you think has got the greatest attention to detail? In the world of alternative music as a member of a band or a collective overall.

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  Bring the Horizon.

• 1:53:02Chris Williamson?

  I was gonna say.

• 1:53:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:03Chris Williamson?

  Ollie's level of attention to detail is like a fucking universe warping thing.

• 1:53:09Speaker 02

  It's insane.

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's the game, you know, I think like paying attention to those 1%

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  details and like nailing them, it's it's the difference between being Bring Me The Horizon, right, like one of the biggest rock bands right now and I guess anyone else, right? It's like Roger Federer has said, you know, one of the greatest tennis players ever, like has only won like 50% 55% of his points.

• 1:53:42Chris Williamson?

  Says someone that reads the newsletter.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  Fucking knew that I liked you, man.

• 1:53:47Chris Williamson?

  Fucking knew that I liked you.

• 1:53:49Speaker 01

  I also like tennis, so like.

• 1:53:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, in order to win 80% of his games, he's only won 52% of his points.

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that that's and we don't get me wrong, like we try to we try to play that game like I think, right, like, yeah, if you're at a if you're in the audience eating a corn dog being like, oh, I'm having a lot of fun with this, like, you don't realize that not only like we have carefully and painstakingly built the live set like we there have been half the video footage from one of our tours, I filmed in my basement with these dudes like and we just like paint because we had someone else do it and we're like, this is not right, like, we're just gonna have to do it ourselves.

• 1:54:30Chris Williamson?

  What do you mean you filmed it filmed what?

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  So like video content in the in behind us on on stage, we've.

• 1:54:38Chris Williamson?

  On the IMAX?

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:39Chris Williamson?

  Or the.

• 1:54:39Speaker 01

  Well, the IMAX would be like following.

• 1:54:41Chris Williamson?

  Right, yeah, but it's the screen that it's in between the IMAX, bullshit.

• 1:54:44Speaker 02

  We had like a character like narrate in between every couple of songs and so that character was.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:49Chris Williamson?

  That's cool.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then even, I mean, yeah, going back to the songwriting process, like I was joking about. Being like, hey, guys, what do you think if I add this one note where I'm playing at 30% velocity on the snare drum? Most people will never even hear it, but I think that they'll feel that it's there and you that might make a difference. And it's like paying attention to those little things or like, yeah, and bring these case like, what is the thing that builds the lore of this whole?

• 1:55:16Chris Williamson?

  The outfit, social posts. And then you take it a step further, I suppose, with somebody like Sleep Token. You also remove things, right? Which allows you to suck in that speculation.

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:55:26Chris Williamson?

  That that vacuum. Yeah. I mean, I've been thinking an awful lot recently about attention to detail and obsession. Kind of a, I have a conflicted relationship with obsession. Quite an obsessive person, which is good and the attention to detail also good, but it comes with quite a high price. And I think you see this with any of my artist friends that are at that kind of a level. I think it's almost impossible to not have chronic self doubt and a high attention to detail. I think that the two things are the same thing.

• 1:56:09Chris Williamson?

  I think, yeah, I think the reason that you're pushing so much and that you're paying attention is like, can this be better? Let me give you an example. Depending on how old the can of Neutonic, oh, okay, this is interesting. So this is a slightly older badge. I can tell that this is an older badge from the back here.

• 1:56:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, okay. So you see the Instagram logo there? So it's slightly offset outside of the follow us.

• 1:56:34Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:34Chris Williamson?

  To the left. It might not be on that one. That'll be centralized. That should be centralized. So mine and yours will be off to one side.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:40Chris Williamson?

  And yours should be in the middle. Do you see how mine's offset to the left of the F?

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:56:45Chris Williamson?

  Guess who picked that up?

• 1:56:46Speaker 01

  You.

• 1:56:46Chris Williamson?

  Yes. Like, and this is like millions of cans deep, right? This this run's been going for ages. And I'm like, oh, somebody left like half a point to the left. They left aligned it inside of the margin. They didn't central align it inside of the space.

• 1:57:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:04Chris Williamson?

  Great. We now have a can that's got this 1%. Not even like, no point, no, no, no, no, 1% improvement. Fantastic. When I'm trying to refine the question, idea that I've got for Matthew McConaughey or the way I'm going to word this new, oh, the Atlas complex I'm going to come up with on a newsletter.

• 1:57:25Chris Williamson?

  Not so fantastic in my personal life.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:27Chris Williamson?

  Right? And it's like, hey, obsession. You're great. It would work. Can I turn you off when like, you know, I want to fucking chill out on a night time?

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:39Chris Williamson?

  You don't get to do that. It permeates all of you. And I think this is one of the reasons that artists get conflicted a lot of the time. And um, Ollie is a good example of that. He is a fucking good friend. I've known him for like over a decade and a lovely, lovely, lovely guy. But you pay a high price. If you want to be Ollie Sykes, you pay a high price. If you want to be vessel from sleep talking. You pay a high price.

• 1:58:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:08Chris Williamson?

  You don't get extraordinary outcomes with ordinary inputs. And these guys have got extraordinary inputs, but they're not all good.

• 1:58:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, yeah, I'm convinced that you can't achieve anything great without having high levels of obsession. And it is, I think it's just, yeah, like, what pain do you want? Do you want the pain of not achieving the big thing that you really want to achieve? Or do you want the pain of doing that while knowing that what takes you there also can be an internal struggle every step of the way? Just which pain do you want?

• 1:58:46Chris Williamson?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. I had a healthy dash of imposter syndrome over it and it's great.

• 1:58:52Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 1:58:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:54Chris Williamson?

  Uh, Mark Manson has this idea. He says, um, what are you willing to, uh, what pain do you want in your life? What are you willing to suffer and struggle for? Any um, pursuit, even the most existentially aligned will regularly feel like work. So if you're oriented toward the pain, you're more likely going to be aligned with what you can do over the long term as opposed to if you just oriented toward the pleasure. So everybody says, find what looks like work to everyone else, but feels like play to you. As a, a good piece of advice for a competitive advantage, which is unique and N of one. But that disregards the fact that even the best pursuits regularly feel like labor.

• 1:59:36Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:37Chris Williamson?

  Right? Like being on the bus and these sleepless nights and chaos and being away from the family and all the rest of this stuff like that is the price that you pay. Every if all it was was pleasure, it'd be like, I have no real desire to play a musical instrument. But it would be fun to get the pleasure of just like playing on stage. But I don't want to have to spend a decade learning to play an instrument.

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:00:01Chris Williamson?

  So orienting yourself toward the prices is better than orienting yourself toward the profits. Cause people get kicked out. It's the exact same with relationships, the exact same with relationships. Relationships don't end because insufficient good times, they end because of too many sufficient bad times.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:00:18Chris Williamson?

  It's not that you're connecting at too shallow of a level typically. It's that your disconnections are occurring at too deep of a level.

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:00:28Chris Williamson?

  And the way that you handle arguments is the best predictor. I've been like, how many people break up because they say, you know, the exciting times, they just weren't that exciting. No, it's because we kept arguing all the time. It's because things were going wrong. It's because we couldn't connect. It's because, you know, it was like an overabundance of problems. Not a scarcity of of praises, let's say, if that makes sense.

• 2:00:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:53Chris Williamson?

  And I I think that I think that you see the same thing with with people's pursuits. And it's like, you want to be fucking vessel? You want to be Ollie Sykes? So, okay, this is the mindset that you need to have. And this is the sort of life that you're gonna have to lead. And this is you might, you want to be Lewis Capaldi.

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:01:11Chris Williamson?

  Cause you can't separate his anxiety attacks from his songwriting ability.

• 2:01:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:15Chris Williamson?

  That his anxiety attacks are his songwriting ability. It's like just this huge fuck. It's a onesie, right? It's not an outfit. It's not something that you get to piece together.

• 2:01:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:24Chris Williamson?

  This huge big onesie and you just zip the fucker up and you're like, okay, I guess I'm just him now.

• 2:01:28Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think about like Bo Burnham comes to mind where I'm like.

• 2:01:32Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  Like.

• 2:01:33Chris Williamson?

  Great example.

• 2:01:34Speaker 01

  A genius. I'm like, you are a genius comedian and.

• 2:01:39Speaker 01

  Also, to be that genius, you have panic attacks on stage. And I mean, God, I have no idea what he's just gone. He's gone. Yeah, why the fuck is Bob Burnham? Yeah, yeah, it's, I think, you know, or like Michael Jordan, right? Like, you want to be the the greatest basketball player. But to be that, you have to, what a large percentage of people who interact with him would maybe say he's an asshole. You know what I mean? And still now, the Last Dance thing seems, no, like, still conflicted. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting. I find I find it interesting that we are like typically so pain averse as a collective.

• 2:02:23Speaker 01

  While also, the standard way of life is I'm going to get in a relationship, which means there's going to be a lot of pain in there, like with what you were saying. And then I'm going to have children, which is probably one of the, I'm not a parent, but like, one of the greatest challenges. And you just accept, you're like, oh, I just don't sleep for years. And but like the idea, like, it's the same principle that like, I'm going to sacrifice my life for X period of time for this longer, greater vision that I think it's going to make my life better in the long run. If I'm not, again, I'm not a parent. I think that's what they think. I don't, I don't know.

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  But it's interesting to me that for a lot of people, that doesn't necessarily apply to other aspects of their life either.

• 2:03:14Speaker 01

  Which is, yeah, for me, it's kind of like flipped on the reverse, though, too. Where I'm like, oh, yeah, well, I'm I'm willing to give the the sacrifice for the career and all that type of stuff. And then you throw a kid in my face and I'm like, I don't know if I'm willing to do that right now. You know what I mean? So I don't know, maybe it's just one or the other.

• 2:03:31Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. I don't have a kid either, dude. Yeah. Yeah, I, uh, the obsession thing, one, one final point on that, I'd love to get your opinion on.

• 2:03:41Chris Williamson?

  So people talk about sort of the relationship between discipline, motivation, obsession. And I think the reason obsession is kind of having a moment. Right now, Zach Pograb is a friend of mine, lives in New York, does a lot of running. He's like Mr. Obsession. And I, I think he's fantastic at what he does. I think his new running app is great and everyone should go and download it. I've always been a little conflicted about the obsession thing. Because I'm trying to detox myself at least a little bit from obsession. I'm trying to become more of a lifestyle maxi than like a, a progress maxi, let's say. And, um, the reason that I think people love obsession so much is

• 2:04:25Chris Williamson?

  it's the freest motivation that you're ever going to get. Like if you say that sort of motivation is, I kind of want to do this thing. And discipline is, I have to do this thing. Obsession is, I can't not do this thing. So if you think about sort of, uh, discipline is you forcing yourself through something. And motivation is you encouraging yourself through something. Obsession is you getting like ripped, like pulled forward by the thing. Does that make sense? It's like, ugh, like being pulled by it. And in some ways that's great, but in other ways, I think it's really dangerous because at least with motivation and discipline, largely you at least get to tolerate the gas pedal. But with obsession, you never get to turn it off.

• 2:05:08Chris Williamson?

  It's like, oh, I have, like, I am compelled, I can't not do this thing. Well, what, what if there's a time when you do want to not do that thing? What if you need a weekend off? What if you have had somebody close in your life pass away and you need to think about that? You could probably could do, dealing with your emotions for a couple of, couple of weeks or something. And you go, no, no, I must, I must do more tracks. I have the songs to play and the shows to do.

• 2:05:34Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, I, I wonder, I worry that, uh, the prophets that are very obvious from obsession.

• 2:05:47Chris Williamson?

  Free motivation, free discipline, consistency without effort, basically. Because you're being pulled. I wonder how many people will look back and realize that that was like just chronic imbalance that felt easy at the time and in retrospect, they're like, oh, fuck.

• 2:06:14Chris Williamson?

  I don't know whether that was the best decision and I didn't really have that much choice. So like a little bit more scrutiny around obsession might be worthwhile. Like this is very wet clay fucking bro science at the moment. All right. So like it might be, it might be largely bullshit.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  What's making you rethink, what's making you want to step back from obsession?

• 2:06:33Chris Williamson?

  I've done basically the same thing for nearly two decades now, which is just completely bury myself at working hard. And that's great, but it can cause you to become

• 2:06:47Chris Williamson?

  myopic and laser focused and blinkered about other things that you could do with your life. And that's not even necessarily other things outside of the project. It's other things within the project. So for instance, for me to go and do the live shows, it makes my life harder. And financially, it's a horrendous decision.

• 2:07:10Speaker 01

  And there, it's in there for sure.

• 2:07:12Chris Williamson?

  It's, I mean, even, you know, we, we're gonna do

• 2:07:17Chris Williamson?

  shows between fifteen hundred and seven fifty ish caps. So they are perfectly profitable and, and, and apart from the fact that I've got to fly fucking ton of people out.

• 2:07:30Chris Williamson?

  That it's fine, but if I was making a business decision, I would just continue to do the show. If I was making a platform decision, I'd just continue to do the show. Was making a lifestyle decision, I'd just continue, like all of the elements of obsession would point me away from variation, be like, do more of the thing. But that doesn't necessarily live, lead you to a varied, well-lived adventurous life. And.

• 2:07:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I'm thinking much more about what do I sort of want to look back? What are the memory dividends that I want to give myself in future? And maybe that means letting go of some modes of validation and positive reinforcement that I know work and rolling the dice on some, I'm like, huh, I'll see if this, I'll see how this makes me feel. Maybe this would just be different or interesting. Maybe this will contribute to longevity, consistency, like stick with it-ness over time. So I'm not going to just like continue to grind away and grind away and grind away. I've just done, I've done business and like hard lots of time in front of a laptop or walking

• 2:08:41Chris Williamson?

  and talking on the phone, coming up with ideas or writing or doing whatever. Done that for a long time. I'm like, I think maybe trying to remove the blinkers a little bit is a bit of a good idea. The equivalent of an acoustic track, I guess, on an album.

• 2:08:55Speaker 01

  Track eight in particular?

• 2:08:56Chris Williamson?

  Track eight, yeah.

• 2:08:58Speaker 01

  Do you, in the back of your head, do you think at all of like, well, like if the obsession is still like chirping at you, like, do you still think like, okay, well, yeah, like, obviously, like, I would keep doing the thing, but also knowing that if I'm going to keep doing the thing, like sticking with the main format and repeating what works is really important, but there also has to be room for that 20% experimentation, knowing that 18% of those experiments will flop, but those 2% might be a new format that I can now use and build. Like, do you find the obsession kind of sneaking in that way? Or is it purely like, I just want to do this for me because I think it's like a cool thing?

• 2:09:41Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's, it's a really great question.

• 2:09:46Chris Williamson?

  I guess this is the same as, you know, the second album, third album syndrome that bands have, where they go, we got famous for doing that thing.

• 2:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:09:56Chris Williamson?

  We just do it again. We just do it again. Right, we could just run it back. Like, people want more, they loved that last one, they just want more of the same, right?

• 2:10:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the opportunity to experiment. One of the slight difficulties that you have with this is that there's no such thing as practicing in private.

• 2:10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:16Chris Williamson?

  Every single, we didn't go through this. We didn't dry run this in a rehearsal space yesterday. Oh, when you say that, I'm gonna make a dick joke. And when you do that, you know, we'll do silly bus time. Like.

• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  Nice, it stuck.

• 2:10:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's in.

• 2:10:32Chris Williamson?

  You don't get to do that. So everybody gets to watch you fail in public. You sort of learn out loud over and over again. And that's great because you get to track the journey. And it's like, oh, how interesting is this? Yeah, you know, it would be like if every demo, in fact, no, it would be like if every practice session on the drums was published on the internet.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:10:54Chris Williamson?

  Right? Because there's no such thing as practicing. There's no such thing as, like, you can perform in private. You can't do that here. And you can't even practice in private.

• 2:11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:05Chris Williamson?

  When I could do a pod with someone that was just a friend, I wouldn't ever publish. But the stakes aren't there, which means that no one's gonna take it as seriously as you need to because you don't have the scrutiny and the fear of the audience.

• 2:11:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:11:17Chris Williamson?

  So, yeah, it's, it's, it's an interesting one, man. It's a very unique position to be in. And experimentation, new studio, which is just right now being built a couple of miles away from here, that'll be exciting.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 2:11:31Chris Williamson?

  Um, trying to do stuff like the McConaughey thing, running that back. Yeah, just, okay, what, what's new? What's different? Um, trying to integrate music into the next live show, like the Australia, Canada, Australia, New Zealand one next year. That'll be interesting. Okay, what, what are some areas where that 20% exists, where I might be able to find the two? And, um, yeah, it'll be, it'll be exciting. But that being said, when I see the degrees of freedom and the amount of experimentation that somebody like an Ollie or a Noah or whatever is, is able to play with, or you guys, like, fuck, like, it feels.

• 2:12:11Chris Williamson?

  I want to embrace more of that. I think it's very admirable. I think you guys are very fortunate that you have so much artistic freedom. I think that's something that you shouldn't take lightly because there are much more constricted modes of putting your ideas and your thoughts and your emotions out there. And you guys have one of the ones that's the freest, like as is shown by the fact that you can release a fucking acoustic track. And not just release it, release it and it be received unbelievably well. Yeah, trying to trying to embrace that that opportunity to be, all right, we can be a bit more experimental. What do you wish when you sort of think about

• 2:12:56Chris Williamson?

  the next few years for the band? What would you love to experiment a little bit more with? Like, have you got ideas for how you want the live show to look? Ideas for how you want new sounds to come through? Like, what are you working toward?

• 2:13:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, all of it. I mean, from, you know, now with this sonic change we have, still rediscovering what the next chapter iteration is going to be. This is just the beginning, you know, what we're getting this now, we get to see what what works and what may not work. And just with the music alone, but then going to the live shows and, you know, we've done practical stage setups with, we had a tour where there was a wrestling ring and it was rage on the stage. And then we went and did the thing where it was just video content. And as crazy as video content, we could incorporate with the songs, whether it was lyrics or just these crazy scenes that we're standing in front

• 2:13:54Speaker 02

  of. And now how do we incorporate the two to have this massive look? And how do we, how do we keep making the live show better? How do we transition from this song to the next song and make this memorable moment? And, yeah, it's just, like you said, I think we're very lucky to be in this position, as challenging as it is, also lucky to have all this open ground. It's a little daunting and scary to look at the big picture of it and go. Okay, what do we do first? Where do we go from here? What, what is the best move? Cause like you were saying, it's like you're trying things and you're trying them in front of million people, you know, and they're, you know, failure is gonna feel bad, but if you crush it, it's gonna feel so rewarding.

• 2:14:38Speaker 02

  But we, if you look at all these different things, you know, in, in categories, it's, uh, it's exciting to, to look and see, you know, I'm, I'm ready to get back in the studio and start writing. I'm ready to get with the guys in the soft time and start playing out the live show. Which songs are gonna be, or what's gonna be the encore? What's gonna be the first song? What, what, what's gonna be to the, to the merchandise, to the, the, you know, everything? It's, um,

• 2:15:04Speaker 02

  big open road and it's, it's exciting to see. It's just exciting to think about what's gonna come from our creative hive mind here.

• 2:15:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think like, I'm thinking about the obsession piece and I think like for myself, probably for a lot of artists across music or whatever. I feel like obsession comes from scarcity of like, I have to be obsessed about this because I, I, this could end at any time. We could put out, again, this is, I don't think this is true, but like, I think the insecurity on our part is with everything being an experiment or fully creative. It's, we don't have that format we can keep coming back to because then people go like, let me put it this way, if you put out the, the podcast format, you've got the three cameras, you go back and forth, you can bring in

• 2:15:59Speaker 01

  a new guest, ask good questions, people aren't gonna be like, I'm so sick of you sitting in a room, asking people good questions and hearing thoughtful responses. You don't hear that as much, at least is my assumption, right? But if we

• 2:16:12Chris Williamson?

  I prefer the old question.

• 2:16:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. But if we, yeah, if we keep trying to recreate the same song, people are like, well, I just like the original song, stop trying to do the same thing. I wanna hear something new. And so we're constantly in this state of like, okay, let's try to balance these people who like our old music. They might say that they want the same shit, but they don't want the same shit. But then if we give them the new shit, they're like, I don't like it cause it's new. And so it's like,

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  It feels like your whole career is balanced on like, we released one bad song and everyone rejects us and hates us. It's not true, but that's the insecurity and that's like the scarcity of that. This whole thing could end like that at any time. And so I'm going to obsess to try to build as strong of a foundation as possible. So that if an experiment goes wrong, meaning a song is not received well, or a tour doesn't sell the way you want it to, that we're still okay. Like we're, we got the next thing coming up and we got the next song and you know.

• 2:17:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:17Speaker 01

  So it's a bit, well, yes, I agree, like the creativity of it is great. As a, as a fellow YouTuber, I know what it's like to be like, this format works. We're just gonna put, swap this word in the title. Boom, we got a video, we're good to go thumbnail, we know exactly what it's gonna be. But yeah, in the world of like creating a song, it's like, what do we think is cool?

• 2:17:37Chris Williamson?

  I would really struggle, I think with the pressure of getting it right.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:41Chris Williamson?

  Because, yeah, you're right, I put an episode out, it, you know, some people liked it, but not everybody liked it.

• 2:17:47Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 2:17:48Chris Williamson?

  Doesn't matter, it's one of a thousand.

• 2:17:49Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 2:17:50Chris Williamson?

  Literally one of a thousand.

• 2:17:51Speaker 01

  You got many more coming that week, people already.

• 2:17:53Chris Williamson?

  Correct, you don't like it on a Thursday, wait two days.

• 2:17:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:17:56Chris Williamson?

  There's another one on Saturday, wait two more days, there's another one on Monday.

• 2:17:58Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:18:00Chris Williamson?

  The fucking sphincter tensing

• 2:18:07Chris Williamson?

  concern of album release morning.

• 2:18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:11Chris Williamson?

  What are people gonna say? What are the reviews gonna be like? What's Reddit gonna say about it? What's, you know, like fucking are people gonna download it? People gonna stream or what are they gonna do? Like, that's a lot and you've spent all of this time and you've poured bits of yourself into it and you've second guessed it. And yeah, that would be, that must be a, that's a real, a real, real challenge. I think I'd very much struggle with that.

• 2:18:31Speaker 01

  It is. I, I think we had.

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  We had one experience this year, I mentioned, that I think kind of put that in perspective. So, you know, we've, we've had this whole situation of like, okay, we're coming out as a band with a new lineup and releasing our first song as like the new lineup. The day before our manager dies in a plane crash. And it's like, perspective just dawns on you so fast of, I mean, we've been working, right? Like I said, for 14, 15 months on this, this one moment of like, we can't fuck this part up.

• 2:19:16Speaker 01

  This is our coming out party of new song, new lineup. And for all of that buildup to then have like the tragic event happen the day before, it was a perspective shift of like, dude, I don't, I don't care. Like we, yes, we put this out, but like, we lost one of our guys. Like to put it out without him, like just felt wrong in itself.

• 2:19:57Speaker 01

  So I think like, I don't know, I, it, it's a helpful reshift of, man, we are just so self-centered, I think, as, as people and just like thinking about like, what are people going to think about this? What are people going to think about this? What are people going to think about this? But like, in that moment, it's just like, oh dude, none of this, none of this actually matters. I enjoy doing it. I want people to connect with it. That is still my goal. I still do have the, you know, with, with the following singles, like I still had that thought, but it's like, oh, but in the grand scheme of things, like this is, this is a two and a half minute song.

• 2:20:42Speaker 01

  And if people don't like it, okay. And if people like it, that's super cool. But yeah, kind of like what, what you were talking about earlier, man. Like, I'm not.

• 2:20:54Speaker 01

  My, I'm not gonna miss my life because of this one song because something just tragic happened in my life. I'm gonna make sure that like I'm with my people like seeing how you guys are doing, seeing how everyone affected is doing. Um, yeah, perspective can dawn on you real in a, in a single moment pretty quickly.

• 2:21:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, man. That was a very, very tough and conflicting time and emotions you're building up for this like, oh, excitement. Here we go. Here we go. About to pull the trigger. Here we go. Countdown begins, you know, two weeks away, a week away. We're getting the video back a couple of days before and lining up the artwork, getting the single, all this stuff, doing the, the press the, the week of to have it all drop the, you know, days following and, and then waking up 24 hours before the song comes out. I don't even think it was 24 hours. I think it was that, that night it was coming out, I believe.

• 2:21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, technically at midnight.

• 2:21:49Speaker 02

  So, you know, waking up to the worst, uh, man, waking up to the worst fucking phone call and, and then it's, all of that, all of that's gone. All that, that, the excitement, all the, the pressure, all the, the unanswered, the unknown is, it, it doesn't matter anymore. It doesn't matter. And, uh, yeah, it's been a really, really eye-opening, really, uh, difficult release just with all of that happening on top of the change, the lineup changes, the, the uncertainty, the unknowns, and then, um, having that guy that you just

• 2:22:31Speaker 02

  call and text anytime if, you know, oh, man, I'm sorry, just.

• 2:22:41Speaker 02

  Having that rock that you're like, oh, man, I'm gonna call him if, you know, we're freaking out about this release or the, you know, what are the comments gonna be? Oh, I got Dave. I can just hit up and he'll ease my mind over it. And you kind of realize, uh, what's, what's most important in life. All this, it doesn't matter. Take a shot on something and it, it flops. It's not the end of the world. You know, it, there's, there's gonna be more opportunity to come, you know, and yeah, it's been a crazy time. It's been a crazy time in the Hypervill camp.

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's weird because I feel like we were talking about it earlier, almost in the opposite sense of like, well, I want to like, I want to live life and like. Doing exciting things is like, that is living life. But then it does always kind of come back to like, yeah, but who is with you?

• 2:23:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:31Speaker 01

  Like, who are the relationships? Like, it, I, my perspective is, I don't know that unless they're bad relationships, it's, it's worth losing relationships over. You know, I don't know what Keith Urban thinks. Um, you know, maybe that's, that, that was a even trade for him. And I, God, no, I don't fucking know what his, what his situation was. I can't even begin to comment on it. But like, yeah, I think what, what's, what's the sacrifice? What's the cost? And like, I think it's fair to ask, like, is it worth it or not?

• 2:24:05Speaker 01

  A lot of the times, I think that answer can be yes, but I think it starts to get dicey when it's relationships. Like, if that, if that's the cost of losing good relationships, like, I don't know.

• 2:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:24:19Chris Williamson?

  Dude, it is a, it sounds like it's been a series of being kicked in the dick months so far this year. I'm sorry that you guys have had to go through that. I'm really sorry.

• 2:24:33Speaker 02

  We appreciate it, man. It's been, um, it's been tough. It's honestly, you know, in a point where you're supposed to be like, all right, this is the most exciting thing that's gonna happen in the next couple of months. Getting to see what people say and have new music and material. And then, you know, that happens and we each all have personal things going on at the same time. And it's been tough, but, um, I think, uh, you find strength through the struggle. And I think our relationship within each other, within, within the band, has only gotten stronger. I think, um, relationships just outside our inner circle have gotten stronger.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've, I've always been, um, someone that's tried to keep that mentality of like, positive mental attitude and strength through struggle. You know, you go through something, okay, what am I gonna learn right now from this to carry? And, and learn a lesson from or, or?

• 2:25:33Speaker 02

  Whatever whatever it may be, but um yeah, it's been tough, but I've learned a lot and I think we've all learned a lot. And I think it it, you know, that's all you can really do is is grow from it and and learn life lessons the hard way and and implement them down the road and be try to be a better person or a better friend or a better, you know, family member, whatever it may be, better bandmate. And uh, yeah, yeah, it's it, you know, try not try not to dwell on it and and just take the lessons as they come.

• 2:26:06Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, you're gonna have one hell of an amount of uh, deep emotional well to tap into when it comes to writing the next record. And you know, what better of a tribute to somebody that's a huge part of the band than to just keep doing the thing that they wanted you to crush at? You know, I think you see this with architects.

• 2:26:23Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. That that was, oh, man, tragic, tragic. And then here in the record, I've been a fan of them for a while. So like here in the records, leading up to um, his passing and then going back and and really understanding the lyrics.

• 2:26:40Chris Williamson?

  In context.

• 2:26:41Speaker 02

  Home.

• 2:26:42Chris Williamson?

  They won't play that tribute song live anymore. They refuse to. Uh, I think that's track eight as well on their album, interestingly enough. And uh, they'll play on this most recent tour, they played the sort of like interlude and then they play an intro. They play like a bridge in the intro thing and then just as lyrics are about to start, they just kill it.

• 2:27:06Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:27:07Chris Williamson?

  And they just go into the next track.

• 2:27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:10Chris Williamson?

  Um, and yeah, they were like, it's just too fucking heavy to play live.

• 2:27:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:15Chris Williamson?

  Um, but yeah, man, I'm sure that he's feeling real proud of what you guys have done. I really think he will be.

• 2:27:22Speaker 02

  Thanks, man. I appreciate that, man.

• 2:27:24Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, uh, man.

• 2:27:34Speaker 01

  Just grateful, grateful to like have, have other people that like, we can be open about it with, you know, like, not, not everyone has that.

• 2:27:46Chris Williamson?

  Fuck dude, imagine if you were a solo artist.

• 2:27:48Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 2:27:48Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah. You're just some bloke on a bus.

• 2:27:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:52Chris Williamson?

  With a new manager.

• 2:27:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:27:54Chris Williamson?

  With, with the same, or maybe the lighting guy, maybe you've got like, maybe, maybe like your fucking, yeah, your LD or like your TM or something is like kinda cool.

• 2:28:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:03Chris Williamson?

  And you have a bit of a chat with them.

• 2:28:06Chris Williamson?

  But no one else really knows what you're going through or the pressure of the performance or anything else. So, yeah, when you say like the relationships and the camaraderie that you have in the band, um. Yeah, sure. Would it be great if you didn't have to split the measly tiny amount of money that the record labels drip feed to you, the fucking end of the human centipede?

• 2:28:30Chris Williamson?

  Would it be nice if it didn't have to go like four other ways on top of your way? Maybe, but then how much harder would it be? Like, it would be more than five times harder.

• 2:28:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:28:39Chris Williamson?

  You know?

• 2:28:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:28:40Chris Williamson?

  Uh, so bandmates are expensive, but when you look at them in terms of like motivation fuel, they're probably pretty cheap.

• 2:28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think like, we all are trying to impress each other in a certain way, which like grows all of what we do, cause I think a lot of the guys in the band are very impressive individuals and impressive people. So it's like, okay, well, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna stay in this, I gotta really show up.

• 2:29:06Chris Williamson?

  Game up.

• 2:29:07Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:29:07Chris Williamson?

  So that's one, that's one thing that I've noticed, at least since spending a bit of time around bands.

• 2:29:13Chris Williamson?

  There is this odd balance between the need to keep morale high, especially on tour. And the understanding that if you suppress your emotions for too long, that it's gonna fuck you up.

• 2:29:25Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 2:29:26Chris Williamson?

  Because if you're moping, like, I know for a fact that there are ancillary, maybe not quite central. In fact, no, I know, I know for a fact too, we all know, uh, that there are

• 2:29:40Chris Williamson?

  people that are part of band constructs.

• 2:29:44Chris Williamson?

  Who are more talented than they need to be. But a sufficiently difficult hang. That they actually can't survive.

• 2:29:58Chris Williamson?

  In the world of being on the road with the other people that are there. It's like, loved the video girl, thought she was brilliant. Fuck me, she did my head in.

• 2:30:09Chris Williamson?

  She can't stay, but we're not going to get someone better at video. I would happily have someone half as good at video. Who is like fucking 90% less annoying.

• 2:30:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:19Chris Williamson?

  Um, or whatever it might be, right? It's just clash of personalities, class of culture, whatever. And one of the things I think that's in the back of the mind of lots of artists that is spending time on the road is must keep morale high. If I'm struggling and I steam into the fucking back lounge at 11am. And go, today sucks, everything's hard, I'm tired, my back hurts. And you know, you just unload all of this. Well, now everybody else is feeling that way. And you don't want to be the guy that brings the vibe down.

• 2:30:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:30:48Chris Williamson?

  But also, if you're in this permanent, like, constant state of denial. At what point are you allowed to actually have, I'm struggling, man. I, I miss whoever it is, I miss this person, or I've been thinking about this, or me and the missus are like, we had a tough conversation last night.

• 2:31:10Chris Williamson?

  You don't have any room for that. So you've got this weird, I got to perform on stage. And then I also kind of have to fucking perform to my bandmates. To, and I gotta sort of tolerate, temper the fucking dose. Right? We're gonna like dilute down, triage this fucking sadness, the realness. Or maybe go, I can, I can talk to the playback tech, like he's good. Like, I'm all right to talk to him about how sad I am or whatever, but like, I can't unload it on the band because I want to make sure that. Like Eric, a big night tonight, his family's all coming, he's going to be a bit more nervous than you, like, whatever the fuck.

• 2:31:45Chris Williamson?

  Like it permeates everything.

• 2:31:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, that's something we've, we've had, I think every band's had, like whether it's crew or band member or something that's, that's just going through something and, and uh, doesn't know the best time to dump. And uh, over the years, uh, the crew that we've, we've had that returned for multiple years, uh,

• 2:32:10Speaker 02

  we have strong relationships with them, the guys in the, within the band and the, the crew that are on the bus with us. Um, been doing it for long enough. I feel like we have our own little, uh, I don't wanna say cliques, but you know, uh, Gabe and Steve have a lot of things in common. Dylan and our other guitarist and I have a lot of things in common. John and I have in common things. So there's different types like days that where, you know, a day off or something. Us two are gonna go hang and, and uh, if I'm having one of those days, I really need to talk. Sometimes like, if I, if I bring it up, it's, I just gotta, I gotta find about something like, are you emotionally available right now for me to like dump on the, dump on you real quick? Oh, yeah, yeah, sure. But I think we've been doing this so long that I, I could just,

• 2:32:55Speaker 02

  I don't know. I feel like, um, I feel like I was going through it on this last year up tour pretty heavy. And I didn't say shit. And like, cause I know everyone's going through it with, with Dave and everything else going on around the camp. And I just, you know, just kind of bit my tongue and kind of stayed shut in. And I'm usually one of the guys that's like, I'm gonna go check out this band. We're on this fest today. I'm gonna hop from this stage to this stage, go have some beers with them and do this. And I just didn't do any of it. And I, uh, I'm grateful to have these guys be so in tune with each other that they see something go on. They, they, they know. They know. And before I even know sometimes that I'm, I'm falling off the wagon emotionally or doing.

• 2:33:39Chris Williamson?

  Stepped in.

• 2:33:39Speaker 02

  They stop and like, hey, let's, dude, come have a beer with me. We're going to the bar tonight. Like, come on. Come out and.

• 2:33:48Speaker 02

  And it just gets brought up in conversation. I talk it out and it's like, damn, I really fucking needed that. I really needed that.

• 2:33:53Chris Williamson?

  Being in tune.

• 2:33:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:55Chris Williamson?

  But again, the fucking solo artist thing, dude. And I mean, this is another, another challenge, like something else that people don't realize with their favorite band. As soon as you move from mid-level to just beyond where you guys are, as opposed to being on the bus, you'll probably be able to get hotels every night.

• 2:34:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:15Chris Williamson?

  And wouldn't that be wonderful? God, so much better. Oh, I'm on my own.

• 2:34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:21Chris Williamson?

  I'm in a room, I'm, I'm on my own. I'm in a room on my own.

• 2:34:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:34:24Chris Williamson?

  And that, again, velvet handcuff. Do you know how few fucking, you remember being in the fucking transit thing, sleeping on the roof, whatever the fuck?

• 2:34:34Speaker 02

  Walmart parking lots, man.

• 2:34:36Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And you're like, okay, now we've got a bus. Wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't it be great if we had hotels? And it, um, for every level, there's a devil. There's a way to look at it.

• 2:34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, do you, it's Taylor Swift getting a ton of sympathy, you know? Not really.

• 2:34:50Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 2:34:51Speaker 01

  But yeah, like someone who's on her own, on, on her private jet, but also alone.

• 2:34:56Chris Williamson?

  Very lonely. Yeah. Would it be better? I mean, I, my tour, we get to fly, me and the guys, we can pick a row. Like, hey, we get to pick our seats.

• 2:35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:05Chris Williamson?

  Like, that's kind of nice. Like, you know, you've got a board together, you're in the airport, and maybe you get yourself some fucking, like tacos or something.

• 2:35:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35:12Chris Williamson?

  And there is this weird isolation that comes with, not that comes with success, because that sounds like it's like the ethos of being successful.

• 2:35:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:23Chris Williamson?

  Or something. There is a type of isolation that is afforded by luxury, like structurally afforded. Well, you know, you don't need to get the bus, you can get an Uber. You don't need to get the Uber, you can get a driver. So you don't even, you, it's the same guy and he knows that you don't want to talk. Or whatever.

• 2:35:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:35:39Chris Williamson?

  Like, you don't need to be in the van, you can be on the bus. You don't need to be in the bus, you can be in the hotel. You don't need to be in the hotel, you can be each in your own bus and then on your jet, you know? And you become. Increasingly isolated.

• 2:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, this can even happen to people at home too, right? It's like, oh, I just want a cool house with like, I'm sick of going to the gym. I want a gym in my house. That'd be cool. Okay, cool. You get a gym in your house and then you're like, I'm sick of always having to like, go out for meals. I'm just gonna doordash everything and I'm sick of going out to the pool. I just want a pool in my own house. And before you know it, it's like you just build. This is not from experience, by the way, but, but like, you know, for people who are successful.

• 2:36:17Chris Williamson?

  Isolate compound.

• 2:36:18Speaker 01

  Cool. Now I have this place where I don't have to go anywhere and that actually kind of sucks.

• 2:36:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I'm sick, I'm sick of having to, I'm sick of getting complained at by my wife when I want to play video games. I just want a video game room. You have a video game room and you spend two hours less per day with your wife.

• 2:36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. And yeah, it's, I'm grateful for the complexities of living with a bunch of smelly men. And we have a system for this. So yes, there's navigating like our own emotional, internal struggle with each other. And yeah, those I think are done typically through like one on ones. You're like, oh, let's go grab lunch or whatever. And hey, man, my whole life fucking sucks. And then you talk about that, right? But then how do we all work together and not build resentment together? A lot of testosterone, you know? We're artists, so it's maybe a lot on the lower side, but um, we've built a system called Sunday smackdowns.

• 2:37:16Speaker 01

  So every Sunday on the road, we will just kind of group together. And it's kind of like, hey, this is the time, like, how, how's everything gone this past week? Are we good? Is there anything?

• 2:37:30Chris Williamson?

  Have a debrief.

• 2:37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I mean, it can either be personal of like, hey, that thing you said the other day actually like really pissed me off. Like, can we kind of talk about that a little bit? Or, hey dude, I think like.

• 2:37:42Speaker 01

  What you're saying during this part of the set is not landing like or Gabe, your timing on this song is actually not great or your wardrobe is like, pretty lame, actually, right? Like, kind of the, just an opportunity for us to come together and it's like, creating the umbrella of, we are open for criticism and we are open or constructive feedback, whatever you want to say.

• 2:38:10Speaker 02

  Fearless feedback.

• 2:38:10Speaker 01

  Fearless feedback. Yeah, and also able to give it and it kind of, it disintegrates this awkward thing that I think a lot of us experience in relationships.

• 2:38:23Speaker 01

  Where, let's say your girlfriend thinks like, you know, hey, everything's all good.

• 2:38:30Speaker 01

  Then you kind of have to have this awkward moment. You're like, hey, I want to bring something up. And now it's like, oh, she wasn't expecting you to bring something up. And now it's kind of like, well, hey, I was just kind of like wanting to have a nice little Sunday afternoon and now you're coming to me with this thing that I did yesterday. I don't really feel like talking about it, but it's important to you. So we'll talk about it, but I'm kind of on it. Like now I'm on edge, but I think honestly, just literally having, hey, this is a thing that we do. And hey, if we sit down, we're like, all good? Yes. Okay, cool. Let's see you later. But it just creates an environment to be able to like, open up about it and like, not have that like butting of heads.

• 2:39:07Chris Williamson?

  And a non judgmental way. It's really smart.

• 2:39:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, especially walking off stage if something frustrated you or you bumped into like, we don't do like much blocking, but it's like, ah dude, I was, I was going to step up on the riser with the spotlight and at that point, or like, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, it's like, don't have to walk off stage and it's still burning in my brain and it's, the other guy doesn't even know he did it. And now I have to bring this up and well, now you just look back on that show that like it sucked and then it's going to roll into your next show and all that. So to have that where it's like, Yeah, like a week ago, I've been thinking about it. Honestly, it didn't even really bother me that much. I'm just gonna say it right now, but I I cooled off over it too. Like,

• 2:39:46Speaker 02

  it's, but then you're not ruining someone's show the next time. Then you're, when you go to perform, you just, you're thinking about that and you're not thinking about being in the moment of performing. And yeah, I think it's very helpful. We started doing that.

• 2:39:57Chris Williamson?

  Tael Khan Egi wrote a lesser known second book that's called How to Stop Worrying and Start Living. And then he advocates for something called Worry Time. And that's basically what you guys have got, which is if your brain knows when it's going to be able to ruminate about something, it's able to release at least a little bit of the need to ruminate right now. As opposed to you like getting just a tiny bit of sand flicked at you every second.

• 2:40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:23Chris Williamson?

  You just pick this big rock up at the end of the week. And um, I I think that's really smart. There's this fucking wonderful idea from Neil Strauss. He says, unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments.

• 2:40:36Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:40:37Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 2:40:38Speaker 02

  That's shit.

• 2:40:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's a fucking, it's a real like, oh, that's so true.

• 2:40:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:44Chris Williamson?

  That's so true. I didn't tell you that I wanted you to do this thing and then you didn't do it and I got mad at you.

• 2:40:49Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 2:40:49Chris Williamson?

  Or I didn't tell you that this thing pissed me off and I wanted you to stop and then you kept doing it and I got mad at you. Um, unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And what you're doing is you're allowing yourselves to have a free, nonjudgmental forum. Where people are able to bring up any of the uh, spoken expectations, right? And they're able to get away from those metastasizing into resentments. Uh, I think it's, it's fucking, it's clever. I wonder how many bands would have uh, improved their longevity if they'd implemented, what's it, SmackDown Sundays?

• 2:41:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:25Speaker 01

  Sunday SmackDown.

• 2:41:26Chris Williamson?

  Sunday SmackDown. Yeah, I think.

• 2:41:28Speaker 01

  We're licensing it right now.

• 2:41:30Chris Williamson?

  The silly bus and.

• 2:41:32Speaker 02

  Silly bus time. I got a tattoo on my finger already, so you can't take it. SBT, baby.

• 2:41:36Chris Williamson?

  That's exactly the same as registering it with the fucking trademark office.

• 2:41:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:41:41Chris Williamson?

  Soon as you get it tattooed, I mean, first person to get it tattooed, I mean, it's like, sorry, Nike. Someone got it tattooed on them in 1940 or some bullshit. Uh, Gabe and Eric, I appreciate the fuck out of both of you. I think the new record's fantastic. Everyone should go and stream it. Are you touring? When are you touring next? Or have you not released that?

• 2:41:57Speaker 01

  Uh, haven't released it at the moment. We're playing Warped Tour in November, but yeah. Really busy next year that people will see. We're in Europe.

• 2:42:05Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 2:42:06Speaker 01

  Uh, in October, that's announced.

• 2:42:07Chris Williamson?

  September, October?

• 2:42:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, something like that. And then, yeah, to be determined.

• 2:42:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, lots of stuff coming though, so keep an eye. We'll be touring. We were just saying we're gonna be touring like, you know, like four or five months a year. It's a lot more than that this year, I think.

• 2:42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would also just like to sign off by saying, Chris, your calves are magnificent. So jealous. I did not know this about you. It has not been addressed, at least from what I've seen, and damn.

• 2:42:34Chris Williamson?

  Thanks, man. I wondered why you were looking at that angle. I thought it was something else. I would say, I would say, sort of the forearm and calf, like the extremities.

• 2:42:44Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:42:44Chris Williamson?

  I do well at the extremities. As you get more toward the middle, uh, less conditioned. You get out toward the ends, very lean and very well-conditioned. Boys, you're great. The new record fucking slaps. I'm so happy. See, I thought you crushed it when I saw you at Summer of Loud as well. And I'm looking forward to the tour. I'll be there.

• 2:42:59Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 2:43:00Chris Williamson?

  Thanks for having us.