The Female Orgasm, CrossFit & Vasectomies - Zack Telander | Modern Wisdom Podcast 384

Zack Telander is a weightlifter, coach & YouTuber. ZT joins me to talk about the world's most pressing issues like whether men should be forced to get vasectomies at age 40, if Jon Jones can ever find redemption, why New Zealand's football team name is problematic, why the female orgasm is so elusive, how Zack got involved in internet beef with a big Texan man, whether CrossFit has rampant steroid use and much more... Sponsors: Get 20% discount on Reebok’s entire range including the amazing Nano X1 at https://geni.us/modernwisdom (use code MW20) Reclaim your fitness and book a Free Consultation Call with ActiveLifeRX at http://bit.ly/rxwisdom Extra Stuff: Subscribe to Zack's YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC94_fvLx7abZgs9LIkM7jxw Get Zack's Program for $1 - https://www.patreon.com/zacktelander Follow Zack on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/coach_zt Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #dating #crossfit #politics - 00:00 Intro 00:41 Chris Rabb’s Vasectomy Bill 06:00 Can Jon Jones Redeem Himself? 21:26 New Zealand All-Whites 29:00 Mark Rippetoe’s Beef with Zack 36:24 Intricacies of Female Orgasms 51:03 Is CrossFit a Legitimate Sport? 1:07:41 Facebook’s Whistleblower 1:15:50 Where to Find Zack - To support me on Patreon (thank you): http://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom Listen to all episodes on audio: Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Zack Telander?

  What's the one thing that men face is ability to get it up? And then the thought process of trying to get it up makes it worse. Don't think about it, babe, don't think about it. It will just happen. Okay, you don't want me to think about it now? Now all I can do is think about it. Right? So it's kind of the same thing. If a woman wants to have an orgasm and you and like, that's all they're thinking about. And then they think, oh crap, well, I'm not, it's not happening.

• 0:21Chris Williamson?

  Is it happening right? Is he enjoying it? Am I enjoying it? Should I be doing this?

• 0:25Zack Telander?

  Yes, yes.

• 0:26Chris Williamson?

  That's such a good analogy.

• 0:30Chris Williamson?

  Zachy Boy, welcome back.

• 0:32Zack Telander?

  Thanks for having me back.

• 0:34Chris Williamson?

  Sooner than we planned, man.

• 0:37Zack Telander?

  Yeah, but it's, it feels right.

• 0:39Chris Williamson?

  Too much to talk about. Right, so here's the first thing I want to talk about. Chris Rabb from Philadelphia. He has created a bill requiring men to get vasectomies by age 40. State Representative Chris Rabb, Philadelphia Democrat, supports a solution to lawmaking men who want to control policy on women's and girls' bodies, requiring requiring men by six weeks into age 40 or after child three to get vasectomies. And it's all in the name of reproductive rights for women and girls. Rabb also wrote the legislation, which was in a response to restrictive abortion bills around the US. I thought it was as important as a man to speak up about reproductive rights, Rabb said according to WHPTV. There are bills and laws that regulate and restrict bodily autonomy for women and girls, but not so much for men.

• 1:23Chris Williamson?

  While the legislation is satirical, it's supposed to add conversation on reproductive rights. In the statement Rabb said, as long as the state legislature continues to restrict reproductive rights of cis men, cis women, trans men and non-binary people, there should be laws to address the responsibility of men who impregnate them. That's obviously beside the law of having to look after the child and pay child support for the first 18 years of its life. My sincere hope in introducing this legislation is that my colleagues in the General Assembly consider the egregiously gendered double standard when it comes to curtailing reproductive healthcare as it applies to women. Republicans reportedly responded with abortion and vasectomies not being equal issues and

• 2:06Chris Williamson?

  argued the bill conversation won't get very far. What do you think about that?

• 2:12Zack Telander?

  So the the main thing that I heard from and what I want to talk about is the satirical aspect of it. So like it was knowingly satirical, right? When he did it, he so he himself knows that it's not ever going to get passed and it's not real. So what I'm wondering is what is the efficacy of like an extreme satirical play like that to get conversation started? Well, ultimately, right? Like to to get people thinking about, you know, the other side of it, which is the abortion laws that are being passed. It's it's very interesting. Obviously, it's ridiculous, right? He even knows it's ridiculous. But that's what I'm I'm wondering is like, how how effective is satire in bringing about conversation?

• 2:56Zack Telander?

  And I would say it's decently effective, right? You have

• 2:59Chris Williamson?

  Well, we're talking about it.

• 3:00Zack Telander?

  Yeah, exactly. And and what sort of effect will it have on the actual lawmakers and the, you know, the people in power who can, you know, make a difference and make changes?

• 3:13Chris Williamson?

  I don't know if I want the people that represent me in government to be wasting time and money doing shit like this, though. I just feel like, is that the satire, no matter how fucking effective it is, it needs to be unbelievably effective, because he's put a bill in. I don't I have no idea what that means.

• 3:32Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Chris Williamson?

  But he's created a bill and it's actually been put out into the world. Is there not more important things to do? Your country's fucked. Like, the government and the politicians in your country are fucked.

• 3:46Zack Telander?

  It's a guy is basically trolling at like the elite level.

• 3:51Chris Williamson?

  Professional trolling, yeah.

• 3:52Zack Telander?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd rather, you know, tax dollars go elsewhere for sure, for sure than that. And that it's a it's insane.

• 4:03Zack Telander?

  But you know, here we are talking about it.

• 4:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, fair point. I also, I don't know, I feel like trying to further restrict in response to a restriction is just a bad, it's not a tremendously good way to try and even the scales, right? If you have a problem with a particular law, let's say it's restrictions on voter ID, you don't then try and restrict something else to even the scales. You try to reduce the restriction that you've got a problem with. And the same thing goes with abortion law. Like, if you're bothered about the restrictions on abortions, then you can fight that. But trying to create something that sits on the opposite side of the fence, it makes it too easy. If he genuinely cared, I think there would have been a smarter way to go about this.

• 4:49Chris Williamson?

  Because it's not, it's not the same, it's not equivalent. It would, it would be the same as a woman getting her tubes tied, which

• 4:55Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 4:56Chris Williamson?

  Isn't the same as an abortion.

• 4:58Zack Telander?

  Yeah, that, that doesn't match up for me at all, really restricting someone's ability to reproduce. And then the other one is, you know, the, the person has already reproduced.

• 5:10Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, and then you're

• 5:11Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 5:11Chris Williamson?

  Taking a life, which is what the people that are pro-life are arguing. That bit about, uh, there should be laws to address the responsibility of men who impregnate women. It's like, what do you mean? Like, there already are.

• 5:26Zack Telander?

  Yeah, there's, um.

• 5:28Chris Williamson?

  You have to pay for the child.

• 5:30Zack Telander?

  There's child support.

• 5:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, for a very long time.

• 5:32Zack Telander?

  That already exists.

• 5:32Chris Williamson?

  Anyway, that's, that's what I've been thinking about this week.

• 5:36Zack Telander?

  Yeah, that's, it's, that's incredibly odd. It sounds like it would be a headline to an Onion article.

• 5:43Zack Telander?

  Right? Wouldn't it be? I mean, like, I, I honestly, when you brought it up, I, I've never heard of this, but when you brought it up, I thought it was like a, uh, like a population control type of play, like, like China has had for, for quite a while.

• 5:55Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 5:55Zack Telander?

  You know, so.

• 5:57Chris Williamson?

  Fuck it. What you been thinking about?

• 5:59Zack Telander?

  Well, um, I've been thinking about John Jones. He has, he's gotten in trouble again. This time it was abusing his wife. He's got, for, for those who are listening who don't know who John Jones is, maybe you don't know martial arts. He's, you know, considered one of the best martial artists, like really of all time, which is, which is crazy. He's in the UFC, hasn't been active in a long time and he's a very, very troubled individual. And he just recently was elected or not elected.

• 6:38Zack Telander?

  Hall of Fame, right? He was, he was inducted. Yes. Inducted into the Hall of Fame for one of his fights. I can't remember which, would you know off, it was the one with Gustafson? Okay. So, um, he had just gotten his award. He, you know, went back to the hotel, told his wife that. Yeah. In Vegas. Of course. That actually really matters in this one. Okay. So in Vegas, told his wife, hey, I'm going to go out. I'm taking $10,000. Uh, I'm going to go out. Comes back, they get in an argument at like five in the morning. He hits her. She goes down to the lobby. The security guard notices the blood on her face.

• 7:13Chris Williamson?

  Cause she asks to change the room.

• 7:15Zack Telander?

  Right. It was a cry for help. It was a, well, she, I, that's actually true. She, she didn't want to go back to the room with him. I think she wanted a different, or wait, did she want to lock him out?

• 7:25Chris Williamson?

  I think she wanted to lock him out. So by changing the room key, he wouldn't have been able to get back in. And she went down and the, one of the daughters was there with her.

• 7:35Zack Telander?

  Yes. And I think, you know, that also could have been like a, hey, I'm, I'm in trouble. Like I'm scared type of thing. Also, right? It's a lot of times.

• 7:46Chris Williamson?

  The, the wife said, can we just get any room key? And the guy mentioned, do you need any assistance? And she kind of said, no, but she also said that she didn't want to go back up. And then it was the daughter. The daughter was the one that said, can you call the police?

• 8:02Zack Telander?

  Right, yes, yes.

• 8:04Chris Williamson?

  Fucked.

• 8:05Zack Telander?

  I know, that was, that, I think that was the, the chail video that you sent me. That was the, the, the part that really.

• 8:12Chris Williamson?

  It makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

• 8:15Zack Telander?

  Yeah, your own daughter is.

• 8:17Chris Williamson?

  Your daughter is calling the police on you to stop you from hitting her mother.

• 8:21Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Chris Williamson?

  Like, crazy.

• 8:23Zack Telander?

  So he's a very, very, very troubled man and we can talk about like, you know, what he should do or shouldn't do, or what should happen. But something that's very interesting to me is,

• 8:38Zack Telander?

  this was something that Daniel Cormier, who's now, uh, you know, an analyst and, you know, just a, a figurehead at the UFC. He was a, a heavyweight champion, or super heavyweight champion, uh, in the UFC, I don't know, he defended it a couple of times, he lost the belt, got it back. But, um, he had a few fights with Jon Jones and one of the things that he said in his interview, he ended up kind of predicting the future and I'll just play the clip. Um, I'll play the audio here.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Want to hear my reaction? Please. He doesn't want to hear my reaction because I will tell him some sobering truth. Please. Sobering truth is his history dictates and determines that the same thing is gonna happen. That is his character, that is him at his core. I look at that young lady, the PR lady that's on his team now and I see in her eyes, she knows she's fighting a losing battle. I look at his coaches. I see that these guys know that this kid will not change. He won't, he will not change, he's the same guy. He's rotten at his core and he will continue to [bleep] up. Don't you think that people can learn from their mistakes? Mistakes? Mistakes? You don't constantly make mistakes. No. You make mistakes, but you don't do them over and over and over and over. No, says who? You don't do that.

• 9:53Speaker 02

  If you know when a mistake, when you make a mistake, it changes you, you try to make yourself better. That's true. And this is many times we've heard this speech, Johnson?

• 10:00Zack Telander?

  Pretty unbelievable, that gave me the chills. So that was, I believe, two years ago?

• 10:08Zack Telander?

  And John had already been in a lot of trouble and DC says he's rotten at his core and he is bound to repeat, history will repeat itself with this man. And look at what we're doing. We're talking about this. I thought that that was the most effective, like I have not seen something like that. That would, to me, that was chilling. And what I wanted to talk about with you, Chris, is what, well, I guess first, let's talk about redemption for someone like John Jones. And my theory is that he has to almost, he has to let go of his identity completely. He has to do penance, you know, whatever that is, if he has to go to jail, whatever that is,

• 10:51Zack Telander?

  you know, if that's monetary, but he has to lose his identity as a fighter and as a partygoer and has to change his, his life entirely in order to recover from this. And, you know, this type of behavior for someone in the real world, someone who doesn't have the money that John Jones does, doesn't have the fame and notoriety that John Jones does, this type of behavior leads to jail time, leads to death, leads to other people being injured. If he was some normal black man out in the world of America, he's fucked. Oh, 100%. So my thing is this, is like, if he is to move on from this, it has to be a complete and utter spiritual and mental psychological change from, from where he has

• 11:36Zack Telander?

  to go from there. The second, so, so the second part I want to talk about is what determines whether someone is a good man or a bad man based on their actions? How many actions does it take? Is redemption possible all the time? Does, does redemption become harder to, to get the more you fuck up? And that's, that's what I'm curious about. Someone like John Jones is like, I, even though this position that he's in right now, even though I still like to think that there's a potential for redemption, at least within himself.

• 12:14Chris Williamson?

  How old's Jon Jones?

• 12:16Zack Telander?

  I'm not, I'm not entirely sure.

• 12:17Chris Williamson?

  Thirty four. Thirty fucking four, bro. There's no, there is no time for him to turn his life around and come back. How many chances has this guy been given? Didn't he get, he got popped for some sort of PEDs? Like, if you want to tick off all of the big things that you shouldn't do as an athlete, whether it be recreational drugs, whether it be performance enhancing drugs, whether it be getting into misdemeanors, he hit a pregnant woman in his car, he shot a gun outside of the window of one of his cars, he was belligerent to the police. When he got arrested this time, after this incident with his missus, and he had the cuffs on behind his back, apparently turned to the four police officers and said, "I'd love to see if you four pussies could take me on your own if you undid these handcuffs.

• 13:02Chris Williamson?

  I've just been inducted into the Hall of Fame." Then he headbutted the police car, so he's now got to pay for the damages to the police car. So, like, the guy's a bellend.

• 13:12Zack Telander?

  What I'm saying, of course, what I'm saying is though, is like, that whole being a fighter thing's gone. Like, in my opinion, to be, to come back, maybe. I mean, who knows? In this weird world we live in, you know, like, OJ Simpson is one step away from getting a celebrity boxing match. Like, that's how fucking weird this world is.

• 13:31Chris Williamson?

  Is he?

• 13:31Zack Telander?

  Okay, I don't know. You know, it's like, you never know what can happen. You know what I'm saying, though, right? Like, Jake Paul, Logan Paul, all this stuff, they're headliner, they're big martial artists now. Like, it's crazy. I was thinking more along the lines of, like, Jon Jones just disappears. Just disappears out of the limelight and changes who he is in order to survive in this world.

• 13:58Chris Williamson?

  As far as the UFC is concerned, that's already happened. So, people mentioned this, they said a few years ago, Jon Jones could lord it over people like Danny. Because one of the reasons that he said he wasn't going to come back is because he wanted to get paid a million dollars for a fight. And the UFC don't seem to be quite good with fighter pay, that's a big criticism that they often get. So, Jon said, "I'm gonna wait because I can hold out, because I can negotiate." He forgets, man, this sport moves so fast, they don't fucking need Jon Jones anymore. The sport doesn't need him, they haven't needed him in the heavyweight division for a long time. And he continues to fuck up and continues to be out of the game. So I don't see where his leverage comes from with regards to that. I don't think that people care. I don't think the UFC need him. I don't think the world need him. Like,

• 14:41Chris Williamson?

  if you're not going to be a good athlete, what you can be is a good ambassador or a good role model for people to look up to, young kids, you know, let's say the Cormier's of the world, like-

• 14:51Zack Telander?

  Yeah, Cowboy Serrano is another-

• 14:53Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, or fucking Khabib. The guy retired at the peak of his career. So he's no longer an athlete in the MMA, in the UFC, but he can be a really good ambassador for people to look up to. Jon Jones has fucked both of those things. He's no longer an athlete-

• 15:06Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Chris Williamson?

  And he's not a role model for people to look up to. I don't want my future kids to be looking up to Jon Jones as the sort of athlete that they should try and aspire to be. Fuck that. So yeah, in terms of that, correct. And then in terms of how much redemption you need, how much you would need to do to undo all of the bad work, I don't think anyone can-

• 15:27Chris Williamson?

  I don't, I would always try and give somebody the opportunity to try and achieve redemption. I don't think that anybody can be a lost cause, apart from like psychopaths and people that are in prison and rapists and stuff like that.

• 15:38Zack Telander?

  Yes, and that's what I mean is like, I think a lot of times people want redemption fast because that's how the world works now. Right? It's like, I want to be back in the limelight, but I want to be in your good, on your good side. And what's missing there is the penance. What's missing there is the shame. And given what, given Jon Jones's past, that shame and that penance, that, that has to take years. I mean, I would say this, Chris, as much as you would say, there's no possible way this man could redeem himself, what about 10 years from now?

• 16:14Chris Williamson?

  But what does redemption look like to you?

• 16:16Zack Telander?

  I don't, I'm not entirely sure. And that's why I, it's interesting to me. I like to talk about things like this because these are things that are almost outside of the scope of human nature is like long-term feelings about someone else. I have this feeling that-

• 16:36Zack Telander?

  People want to be on the winning side. So for instance, if if you fuck up, I want to naturally be on your side, outside of being my friend, someone I care about. I want you to be on top of whatever that is. I want you to come out on the on the good side of that because it I want to be a winner too, you know, it's like, and that's not like a, it sounds very self indulging, but I'm not trying to be. It's like, I think people want redemption. I think people want kind of

• 17:10Chris Williamson?

  You mean you they want people to achieve redemption?

• 17:13Zack Telander?

  I think so. I think so.

• 17:15Chris Williamson?

  You're maybe right, man, but there's only so many times that you can

• 17:19Zack Telander?

  Of course.

• 17:19Chris Williamson?

  let that happen. You know, the cheating boyfriend in the relationship, the wife might be able to take him back the first time or the second time or whatever, but after five times, you go, this isn't a misdemeanor that requires redemption. This is an inbuilt part of your nature. This is just you. And here's another thing. I think that where you're coming at this from is maybe the same as me, which is an inherent belief that people are good, an inherent hope that people are here to try and be good people, like to contribute to society in a way that's fucking constructive and leave the world in a better place than they found it. I think we need to concede that there are some people out there who don't do that. Like there are some people who simply, if you leave them in the world for long enough,

• 18:04Chris Williamson?

  they're going to continue to make it a worse and worse and worse place.

• 18:08Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And like, the crazy thing about all of this is like, this position that I'm playing right now, it's just a position that I'm curious about. I'm thinking through it. This is not how, you know what I mean? And I just want the listeners and viewers to kind of understand that. I like to think about things from from a lens that I may not think about in real life, you know, when it happens. I've been fucked over. You've been fucked over. I'm sure both of us have fucked over some people. And they have every right and you have every right and I have every right to move on from that person.

• 18:45Zack Telander?

  But I still like to think about the potential for someone to make some sort of a comeback. And, you know, this is just a thought because like, Jesus, Jon Jones really has fucked up the most of anyone in his sport that I can even think of.

• 19:01Chris Williamson?

  Here's a question for you. Is it still acceptable to call Jon Jones the GOAT when he behaves privately in the way that we've seen? Can you separate the art and the artist?

• 19:12Zack Telander?

  No, I, I, I never called him that. And basically because of that.

• 19:18Chris Williamson?

  So you think that he is on fighting-

• 19:18Zack Telander?

  You know, Joe Rogan had no, it's, it's very weird now. We're talking about morality and ability.

• 19:27Chris Williamson?

  All right. So fighting talent in the, in the octagon, is he the greatest of all time?

• 19:32Zack Telander?

  Well,

• 19:35Zack Telander?

  I don't, I don't know. Possibly.

• 19:38Chris Williamson?

  Who's in between?

• 19:40Zack Telander?

  It would, it would be between him, I think Khabib. Uh, we're looking at Valentina Shevchenko, who's, doesn't seem like she's gonna lose anytime soon. Um, who else would be on that list?

• 19:58Zack Telander?

  A lot of it has to do with title defenses, I think.

• 20:01Chris Williamson?

  That's one of the criticisms that Khabib gets, right? That who did he fight? That he did a title defense against that was actually world-class. Whereas Jon Jones, pretty much everyone that he did a title defense against was world-class.

• 20:13Zack Telander?

  Right. Um, and then also Conor McGregor didn't have many title defenses, if any. Did he have any? None, right? I think that was his main criticism too. But, um, yeah, you know, I,

• 20:28Zack Telander?

  I don't know. It was just very, very strange. And, and the whole thing is eerie, dude. It's just like,

• 20:35Zack Telander?

  something needs to change. Like what, what would you do if you were Jon Jones's friend? If he has any friends? I don't even-

• 20:41Chris Williamson?

  I think I would have given up by now.

• 20:44Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 20:44Chris Williamson?

  I think that I get quite personally invested in my friends and in their wellbeing.

• 20:47Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 20:47Chris Williamson?

  And after a while, after, well, it depends how long. If you've only just become friends with him this week, then maybe you've got a bit of tolerance left in the tank. But yeah, I would have, um, Right. There's only so far that you can try and take people. And it's like, look, man, like, this is your shit. I would have tried to have an intervention. I would have tried to sit down with them. I'd have tried to do whatever. It seems very much like he's hugely narcissistic, like he has very little empathy for other people. Oh, of cour- yeah. And with all of those things piled together, it's like, look, man, like, this is your fucking problem? If you're big enough to hit a woman, you're big enough to get yourself out of all of these messes that you got yourself into. So, yeah. Anyway, here's, here's one for you. Here's another one. So, uh, New Zealand is divided over the All Whites name change. You seen this?

• 21:33Chris Williamson?

  No. A heated debate is raging in New Zealand after the country's football governing body said it was considering changing the nickname of the men's national team. New Zealand football has revealed that the All Whites name could be changed in order to avoid racist connotations. The sports governing body has confirmed that it was reviewing the name, setting the scene for arguments between the old school traditionalists and those who value inclusivity. Many New Zealand sporting sides have colour-based nicknames. The men's cricket side are the Black Caps. The men's basketball side are the Tall Blacks, however, non-rankle like the All Whites, which can be read to mean excluding other ethnicities. The question of the name change comes as many New Zealand organisations adopt names and identities that incorporate Maori culture and language.

• 22:16Chris Williamson?

  The police chief, sorry, the police chief, football chief, said that the sporting body was on a journey around cultural inclusivity. We are working on a process with stakeholders across the game, as well as people from outside football, looking at all areas of the organisation to make sure they are fit for purpose in 2021 and beyond. One of New Zealand's greatest ever players, Winton Ruffer, a proud Maori man and a member of the 1982 team that they got their name from, said changing the All Whites name was, quote, "absolute madness. The All Blacks brand is iconic and this is no different."

• 22:52Zack Telander?

  Okay, so this is the first time I've ever heard of the name the All Whites.

• 22:56Chris Williamson?

  Me too. I don't think New Zealand are particularly good at football.

• 23:00Zack Telander?

  Right. So that's what I was like, the All Whites, what? I know the All Blacks because they're legendary. Literally one of the greatest dynasties in all of sport.

• 23:11Zack Telander?

  You know, there's been a lot of changes in America with American football.

• 23:17Zack Telander?

  With many other teams and their logos. And it's just kind of-

• 23:22Chris Williamson?

  Redskins and stuff?

• 23:23Zack Telander?

  Yeah, the Redskins now, I don't know what they're, this is pathetic, but I think they're just like the Washington Football Team or something like that.

• 23:30Chris Williamson?

  That's the lamest name ever.

• 23:31Zack Telander?

  Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, the Indians had that old logo, which was like the smiling Native American guy.

• 23:37Chris Williamson?

  The newest name is the Washington Football Team.

• 23:41Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Is that, is that what it is? Did you just look it up?

• 23:43Chris Williamson?

  The Washington Football Team.

• 23:45Zack Telander?

  Yep. So then it also was the Bullets. They were changed, that was changed in, God, maybe the late 90s? 2000, maybe?

• 23:55Chris Williamson?

  What did that originally mean?

• 23:57Zack Telander?

  The Bullets. It was the Washington Bullets and it was just a bullet logo. It was cool as hell.

• 24:01Chris Williamson?

  What was wrong with that?

• 24:03Chris Williamson?

  Good crime?

• 24:03Zack Telander?

  Violence, crime, violence. So, so then now they're the Washington Wizards. It's a basketball team. There's plenty of different things like that and I don't know, it can be argued both ways. A red skin is pretty tough and it's hard to, you know, that is a slang, that is a slang term. That's a derogatory term.

• 24:28Zack Telander?

  But it depends, you know, who are you offending and are they offended? And that's the real question.

• 24:33Chris Williamson?

  The question would be whether or not an All Whites versus an All Blacks and a Black Caps and a Tall Blacks. Like that's, this is the theme that New Zealand have going between all of their different sports teams. All Blacks is the rugby and the All Whites-

• 24:46Zack Telander?

  If you change one, you gotta change them all, right?

• 24:48Chris Williamson?

  Well, no.

• 24:49Zack Telander?

  By that logic?

• 24:50Chris Williamson?

  There's an inherent punching up versus punching down, like perspective that's being used that somehow All Blacks is inclusive but All Whites isn't. And I don't know, man, it just feels like, can we not try to keep?

• 25:06Chris Williamson?

  Race dynamics out of sport as much as possible. I'm aware that sport is a good opportunity to display to people like, look, this is a very diverse team that we have on the field and this is a young, working class, Asian guy, white guy, black guy, whatever guy that comes up through the ranks and you can be like that person. Like individual players and their teams at large are awesome role models for young kids and for older people as well. But like when you've got an entire country's set of sporting teams named after the tall blacks and the black caps and the all blacks, like the all whites being the one that gets singled out, it sounds like men over the age of 40 should be getting vasectomies. It just sounds like that again.

• 25:50Zack Telander?

  It's as ridiculous in your mind?

• 25:52Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, maybe not quite, but it's obviously, it's obviously stupid. Like to do that highlights an asymmetry.

• 26:03Zack Telander?

  Right. Yeah. No, I mean, that's what I was saying is if they determine that one is bad, they have to determine all of them are bad because they're all along the same line. Right? All of the all whites, the tall blacks, the blacks, you know, it's.

• 26:21Chris Williamson?

  What about the short blacks? What about people that are short?

• 26:24Zack Telander?

  What sport would they be playing?

• 26:26Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. What are short people good at?

• 26:29Zack Telander?

  Wrestling, I think.

• 26:31Chris Williamson?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 26:32Zack Telander?

  So the New Zealand wrestling, the short blacks or the short whites?

• 26:36Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 26:37Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Honestly, that's the first time I've ever heard of the all whites.

• 26:41Chris Williamson?

  Well, now you've heard of it. What do you think about NFTs?

• 26:45Zack Telander?

  Don't know enough about them and have not. I don't know anything.

• 26:49Chris Williamson?

  Me neither. But yeah, like everyone, everyone seems to be talking about them. Everyone's doing them.

• 26:55Zack Telander?

  Do you know anything about them? Cause that'll be more than me.

• 27:00Chris Williamson?

  I kind of understand that it's a way to create individual pieces of typically artwork on the internet that can be owned and licensed by a person. So it would be the equivalent of you buying a piece of art in the real world or a particular file. Typically these are illustrations or like images and people purchase them, but you are a verified owner and you can limit the number that there are. And you use smart contracts in the blockchain and stuff to be able to.

• 27:29Zack Telander?

  Whoa. So it's mainly around art?

• 27:32Chris Williamson?

  At the moment, it seems like that's what it's mostly being used for, but people can do it with anything.

• 27:37Zack Telander?

  Right. Cause so you're buying the rights to the art, buying the rights to the sale of the art then?

• 27:42Chris Williamson?

  Kind of because digitally, the physical presence of the art can be everywhere, right? Like I can have a screenshot of it. You can have a screenshot of it.

• 27:52Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 27:53Chris Williamson?

  But in the NFT, non-fungible tokens world, only one person can actually own the piece of art, which is licensed via a smart contract through the blockchain.

• 28:02Zack Telander?

  Okay.

• 28:04Chris Williamson?

  So it's a way for digital artists to make bare money, but it's the same. Here's the thing, right? I would love to know how many people that adore NFTs, love the platform and the technology, and how many of them love the fact that they can make tons of money off it? We spoke about this last time about Bitcoin. Like, do you love the fact that people in war-torn countries can send money back to their grandma without the state overreach stopping them from doing it? Or do you like the fact that it doubles every couple of years?

• 28:35Zack Telander?

  Yeah, it's the latter. It's the latter of the two every single time. And the beauty of it is that it's guilt free for right now, at least. Right?

• 28:45Chris Williamson?

  Why is it guilt free?

• 28:46Zack Telander?

  Well, because I don't think anyone's really calling people out for, for doing something as selfish as just playing this weird money game and, and, and making money out of it.

• 28:58Chris Williamson?

  You got called out. You got called out by a man with a mustache.

• 29:02Zack Telander?

  Oh, Mark Ripitso.

• 29:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 29:04Zack Telander?

  Well, okay. So if, are we, do we want to dive into this?

• 29:08Chris Williamson?

  I want to know about the man with the mustache.

• 29:10Zack Telander?

  Okay. So this is for, for people listening, this is a, it's almost a silly kind of internet beef, but we'll dive into it because it does get a little bit interesting. It starts off about a year and a half ago, my profession, my expertise is in the sport of Olympic weightlifting. So a year and a half ago, this guy named Mark Ripitso, he's the creator of Starting Strength and his book has reached almost a million copies sold. It is like. You know, a guideline to barbell training to get stronger. And, you know, I think at the timing of which he came out with the book and started to build his YouTube channel and

• 29:53Zack Telander?

  content, it was timed very, very well. We're, we are now in an era where there's a lot more people with good, if not better information than starting strength. But he was one of the originals and he got people stronger. And that's very important to understand. He was talking about Olympic weightlifting in one of his podcasts a year and a half ago, and he, he kept uttering the same thing that he always talks about throughout this. And it's that weightlifting coaches or powerlifting coaches, they don't know what they're talking about. And there's always this idea, there's always this feeling that, yes, he's trying to get

• 30:38Zack Telander?

  beginners stronger. He will outwardly say, I don't care about professional athletes. I don't care about elite performance. But at the same time, he will say, those who are coaching elite performance are those who are doing things elitely, they don't know what they're doing. And so, he said that about weightlifting, and I ended up writing a comment. And then he did a comments from the haters. That's one of his segments. And he said my comment, or he, he read it out loud. So, a year later, I'm like, you know what, I forgot about this thing. I made a video. And it kind of exploded a little bit, basically talking about the things that Mark Rippetoe had said that I disagreed with. Then he made another clip,

• 31:19Zack Telander?

  which was very egregious, where he laid out almost exactly what I had issues with, word for word, in a very, just very clear cut way. And so, all I did was then make another video and disagree with it. What he said precisely, okay, so there's a man named La Shatal Hadza, just performed

• 31:44Zack Telander?

  The greatest snatch of all time. The snatch is moving the barbell from the floor to overhead. He did it with 223 kilograms. This man has broken the world record, which has been his own, God knows how many times. Okay, I believe the world record when he started was 217 and he's the one who's broken it six times now. Okay, this is the, this is simply the greatest snatch ever. And Mark Ripponso said, "Well, you know, his technique could have been better from our standpoint, but it doesn't matter because the snatch is 50% of your deadlift. Uh, and, and technique doesn't matter." Those are the words directly out of his mouth.

• 32:29Zack Telander?

  Then later he says, uh, later he says, "The reason why some of these old records haven't been broken is because weightlifting coaches don't know what they're talking about from a technical and a training standpoint." So for those of you listening, both of those things couldn't be more clear cut contextual evidence as to what I disagree with wholeheartedly. Okay, so I made another video and boom, he sees this, makes another video retorting me, calling me a fucking child. So this time he just goes off, "A fucking child." My viewers, uh, he said, "Are fucking idiots." He said, "I've sold 1 million books. What have you done?

• 33:13Zack Telander?

  I've gotten more people strong than you. I've invented all of this different stuff." So at this point, the saga is over because his comment section is just attacking him. You know what I mean? It's, it's one of those things where we could have kept this stupid internet beef going on and on and on, but I just let, let him kind of defeat himself, which is the best way.

• 33:33Chris Williamson?

  When did Men's Health write the article?

• 33:34Zack Telander?

  Right, so. That's where this gets even more ridiculous. Men's Health, okay, so for everyone listening, that all, everything I just said doesn't mean anything to you, right? But if Men's Health starts to pick up this, maybe it will, okay? Because Men's Health is a proper publication. It's not just some random YouTube channel. I see that Men's Health is doing a report on this beef. However, they refuse to use my name, both Men's Health and Mark Rippetoe refuse to use my name because they feel as though I'm going to gain clout from this. And this is exactly what I want. Right? That's another one of their arguments is like, they just want clicks. That's why they're going after us.

• 34:18Zack Telander?

  It's like, no, actually, I just disagree with you and I already get more clicks than you. I get more views, I get more clicks than you. That video which you called me out has the most clicks of any of your videos in the past six months. Because I, it was about myself and my viewers went to your channel. But that's it. That's the whole story. It was just hilarious to wake up one morning and see Men's Health was covering this fucking internet beef about a weightlifting coach and some random old strength coach.

• 34:49Chris Williamson?

  What was that comment where someone said, what's all of this weightlifting stuff doing on my white supremacy channel?

• 34:55Zack Telander?

  So, Mark Rippetoe is like the most Texas old, just like, hard man, okay? He's got a great accent. He says things like "why", right? Instead of "why", he says "why" and "what" type of stuff. So, um,

• 35:20Zack Telander?

  he kind of has his own like little meme lords, which I really respect, like his own meta content people, uh, but he's more of like a libertarian, obviously right-leaning and uh, someone commented, it was like, what is all this weightlifting pussy shit doing on my libertarian, uh, like right-leaning militia podcast? And I thought that shit was so funny, man.

• 35:45Zack Telander?

  I thought that was so funny. But yeah, that's what I've been involved in. And the thing is, like, you and I talked about this. I had men's health covering it, right? And you were like, dude, you're sitting on a pot of gold here. You have to go and make a video.

• 36:00Chris Williamson?

  You had to.

• 36:01Zack Telander?

  After you said that, though, I went and checked on his video and all the comments were like negative, taking my side. So I was like, you know what? I kind, this did the job for me. I don't need to, yeah.

• 36:15Chris Williamson?

  How noble of you. See, John Jones could learn a thing or two from you. Just fucking let it go, John. Right, right. Do you want to, do you want to learn about orgasms?

• 36:24Zack Telander?

  Yes.

• 36:25Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 36:25Zack Telander?

  Boy, do I ever. I thought you'd never ask.

• 36:28Chris Williamson?

  Me too. So, uh, I looked at a study, accounting for women's orgasms and sexual enjoyment in college hookups and relationships. So this looked at, investigated the determinants of orgasm and sexual enjoyment in hookup and relationship sex among heterosexual college women and seeks to explain why relationship sex is better for women in terms of orgasm and sexual enjoyment. We found that women have orgasms more often in relationships than in hookups. Regression analysis reveal that specific sexual practices, experience with a particular partner, and commitment all predict women's orgasm and sexual enjoyment. The presence of more sexual practice conducive to women's orgasm in relationship sex explains some of why orgasm is more common

• 37:09Chris Williamson?

  in relationships. Uh, there was also a double standard contributing to why relationship sex is better for women. Both men and women question women's, but not men's entitlement to pleasure in hookups, but believe strongly in women's as well as men's entitlement to pleasure in relationship. More attention is thus given to producing female orgasm in relationships, but not in hookups. And here's the stats. So if you've had no prior hookups with this partner, 11% orgasm, one or two prior hookups with this partner, 16% orgasm, three plus prior hookups, 34%, and six plus months of a relationship, 67%.

• 37:51Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And, um, I, I almost know the reason why. It's like, when you are first getting into some sort of relationship, whether it be physical, whether you have the intention of going further, there is the

• 38:06Zack Telander?

  You have to kind of hide your cards. You have to.

• 38:09Chris Williamson?

  As a guy?

• 38:11Zack Telander?

  Both, women and men. And the discussion around sex is still a mystery. It's like you kind of have this thing where if you're gonna hook up with someone, you're like, oh, man, I still have to like make this move at this time. And I can't just outwardly say, okay, so now we're gonna have sex now. Can you tell me exactly what pleasures you? And can you, you know what I mean? Like, that's, that's not the the level of discussion. But as you get into a relationship, you're damn near shitting in front of your girlfriend. Right? And your girlfriend is, you know, doing everything like you guys, there's no filter. So at that point, she can be like, hey, you know, do this exact thing. And we're both gonna have a party in here. It's gonna be great.

• 38:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 38:51Zack Telander?

  That, to me, that seems like the only logical reason.

• 38:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so it said the um, the presence of more sexual practice conducive uh experience with a particular partner and commitment as well was another one. So I wanted to dig into this more. So I read that. Yeah, like, this is pretty interesting. So I want to find out what causes women to enjoy sex more. Uh, again, from this very rigorous bro science study that I've been doing. And what got me on to it was I was chatting to a bisexual girl, actually, who's just come out of a relationship with her first relationship with a girl. And she said to me,

• 39:31Chris Williamson?

  making a girl orgasm feels like quite an achievement. I can see why men enjoy it. But what that highlighted was that for girls, making a man come is just like, well, it's it's gonna happen. Like, if I just keep pumping away.

• 39:44Zack Telander?

  Yep, it's gonna happen.

• 39:45Chris Williamson?

  Just keep pumping, you know? And and then it it happens in the end. Whereas with a girl, there's more intricacies going on.

• 39:53Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 39:54Chris Williamson?

  So this is fucking fascinating, man. The influence of types of stimulation and attitudes to clitoral self stimulation on female sexual and orgasm satisfaction. A cross sectional study. So long and short of it is, long and short of it is that girls on the whole see any type of orgasm that involves using the clitoris as a second standard. It's like a second class quality. For it.

• 40:20Zack Telander?

  Okay.

• 40:21Chris Williamson?

  Which is pretty crazy. So.

• 40:24Chris Williamson?

  Whether women experience orgasms depends mainly on the type of sexual activity. Direct stimulation of the clitoris improves the regularity of experienced orgasms called orgasm consistency and orgasm quality. During sexual intercourse without direct clitoral stimulation, only about one-third of females experience an orgasm. In contrast, during masturbation, 59% of women usually experience an orgasm. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Forward and back, forward and back. Women who orgasm more frequently reported a higher awareness of their bodily sensations, more erotic fantasies during intercourse, more variation in their sexual behaviour and higher emotional intimacy. So emotional intimacy comes back to the relationship thing again.

• 41:01Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and that is... Yeah, go ahead, sorry.

• 41:04Chris Williamson?

  Many women who have difficulties experiencing an orgasm report psychological strain and low satisfaction with their sexual relationship. A low orgasm frequency is related to cognitive distraction, i.e. automatic thoughts, suppression of erotic thoughts, pressure to perform and sexual myths. So overall here, it says that orgasm consistency through sexual intercourse had a stronger influence on orgasm satisfaction and sexual satisfaction than orgasm consistency through oral sex stimulation by the partner's hand or self-stimulation. This is surprising since many women even describe an orgasm as more pleasurable when stimulated directly by the clitoris and female orgasms least likely to be caused by this type of stimulation. Although there is no biological difference between a vaginal and a clitoral orgasm,

• 41:49Chris Williamson?

  many women seem to desire orgasms through purely vaginal penetration. The results indicate that the common misconception about sexuality, that it is normal for women to experience orgasms during penile vaginal intercourse, influences the subjective evaluation of one's own sexuality. Orgasms from clitoral stimulation seem to have a second-class quality for some women, although there is no evidence that these orgasms feel less pleasurable.

• 42:13Zack Telander?

  Right, because it would seem as though the clitoral stimulation is almost like a hack, right? It's like you get your vibrator, you go right for it, you have the images in your brain, or you watch porn, it just, you get it done. And if they can kind of teleport themselves to wherever they need to be while sex is happening and they get clitoral stimulation, they can almost do exactly the same thing that they were doing, you know, during masturbation. But the purely, would it, is it vaginal? Yeah, purely vaginal one would mean that their connection with...

• 42:53Zack Telander?

  Whomever it is that they're hooking up with was so strong that it didn't require that.

• 42:59Chris Williamson?

  You can't hack your way out of it. Yeah. And I think that what was really fucking interesting was the talk about cognitive distraction, automatic thoughts, suppression of erotic thoughts, pressure to perform and sexual myths. So the biggest restriction to girls coming during sex purely through penetrative sex is their own mind.

• 43:23Zack Telander?

  Yes, yes. And part of it is the, you know, all of the things you listed above, it's kind of the trickle down effect. There's the, it's vulnerability at, at the end of the day, right? I mean, it's, why would I open myself up completely carnally, like everything to this person if they're going to leave me?

• 43:45Zack Telander?

  Right? It's, it's like, that's almost what it requires to have that level of an orgasm. And for women who like, and again, this is, I'm almost speaking of someone who's like sure of themselves, right? But I'm a fucking bro and like, like, trust me, I'm aware. But I'm, I'm working through this because this is very interesting, you know, and it also takes, it takes experience on both ends. Like I've had my experience and frustrations and successes. But what I, what I can ultimately say is like that. I, I wonder where masturbation for women plays into all of this. Cause I know for a fact that masturbation on the men's side, what with using, with the use of porn

• 44:31Zack Telander?

  and like your own hand, that can affect your sexual stimulation. And there's been actually a lot, there was this huge meta-analysis that I want to show you. I didn't, don't, I obviously was not prepared for this discussion. But there's a huge meta-analysis talking about porn and its effects on male stimulation. You know, in order to like the inability to have an erection, sustain an erection, expectation, and then how it affects the relationship. So it can cause relationship breakups, it can cause divorce, it can be a catalyst to cause breakups. It can be a catalyst to, to cause divorce. And I wonder. The female side of that.

• 45:14Zack Telander?

  Right? Because I, when I end up trying to get close with a female, I actually ask them these things about masturbation, about these things. Because it's like, one, I'm curious. And two, it's like, I, I can't judge. I'm not going to judge you. You know what I mean? It's not, we are, we live in a different time where, you know, back in the 50s, 60s, 70s, like, no one talks about masturbation. No one talks about sex.

• 45:41Chris Williamson?

  I want to know, I want to know about how asking a girl her masturbation technique intricacies.

• 45:48Zack Telander?

  How it comes about?

• 45:49Chris Williamson?

  On a first date. I want to know how that goes. Yeah.

• 45:51Zack Telander?

  Not on the, well, you know.

• 45:52Chris Williamson?

  How many dates deep do you need to go?

• 45:56Zack Telander?

  Look, I've, I've gotten it on the first date to talk about it, you know? Because it's like, I'm open about whatever. It's, it's hard for them, you know, I don't want to make the person uncomfortable. So the conversation is just take follow.

• 46:09Chris Williamson?

  Masturbation.

• 46:10Zack Telander?

  Yeah, no, no. The, the conversation I go to is following their lead. Right? I'm not going to push any further because there's nothing I hate more than like making the person sitting across from me feel awkward. And that you have to build that trust over conversation, obviously. And more likely than not, on a first date, you're going to end up talking about relationships. Are you not? What, you know, because you want to know about the person who, you know, who have you dated? What was wrong with it? What was, what did you do wrong? What did they do wrong? What do you like? What don't you like? And if you're not talking about sex at that point, right? At some point, you have to start talking about sex. If you talk about sex, you talk about people not being good at sex, or you talk

• 46:53Zack Telander?

  about people being good at sex, what they did that was good. And then masturbation habits end up having to be discussed. Right? I just kind of bro science walked you through exactly how that ends up happening.

• 47:05Chris Williamson?

  That's why you're doing it. Okay, so. I think, bro science time, I think that the pressure to perform and the sexual myths, which are two of the four reasons for low orgasm frequency, according to this study, pressure to perform comes from what they predict the partner expects from them. And because of how much porn is around, I think that that probably will have made girls believe that they need to act in a certain way. I have seen some studies saying that more men and women believe that anal sex should happen because it like just happens in porn. So therefore porn is a representation of intimacy that happens in the normal world.

• 47:47Chris Williamson?

  And then the sexual myths thing is about the fact that in most porn, it looks like girls do orgasm through sex. So the girl themselves feels, oh, well, this myth is part of me. Now, I don't know how much of a myth thing it is, because when it's self-created through the girl's own rumination and automatic thoughts and suppression and blah, blah, blah. That's like a self fulfilling prophecy. That's like you're the thing that you want to have happen, you're stopping it from happening because of how badly you want it to happen.

• 48:22Chris Williamson?

  It's pretty uncomfortable situation.

• 48:24Zack Telander?

  That's, I mean, that's essentially right. Like, what's the one thing that men face? Is ability to get it up.

• 48:30Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 48:31Zack Telander?

  You know, and then the thought process of trying to get it up makes it worse. Don't think about it. Babe, don't think about it. It will just happen. Okay. You don't want me to think about it? Now, now.

• 48:41Chris Williamson?

  Now, all I can do is think about it.

• 48:42Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Right. So it's kind of the same thing. If a woman wants to have an orgasm and you and like, you know, that's all they're thinking about. And then they think, oh, crap, well, I'm not, it's not happening.

• 48:52Chris Williamson?

  Is it happening right? Is he enjoying it? Am I enjoying it? Should I be doing this?

• 48:56Zack Telander?

  Yes. Yes.

• 48:57Chris Williamson?

  That's such a good analogy.

• 48:58Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And I mean, I saw, I think it was someone on Rogan a while back, but this guy was saying, you know, there's a mixture of drugs you can take to where you just let go of everything. And it's, uh, it's like a. I think it's, would it be called oxytocin? I know that oxytocin is what's released. I know that, but is there like a form of that, something like that?

• 49:20Chris Williamson?

  Was this for women or for guys?

• 49:22Zack Telander?

  This was, someone on Rogan's podcast was like, yo, I've got this combination and you gotta try it. And it was like, something and ketamine. Like it's a very mi- yes, for sex. A very mild dose of ketamine and a very mild dose of like oxytocin or something like that. Oh, and then, yeah, he was also saying you can rub something directly on your dick.

• 49:44Chris Williamson?

  This sounds like Ben Greenfield. This sounds like very, very Ben Greenfield.

• 49:48Zack Telander?

  Okay, it could, it could have honestly been him. I don't remember, but I remember the comments being like, yo, this guy is fucking insane for suggesting, for suggesting people going out of their way to get some ketamine from like some rando motherfucker, you know? By the way, all of these drugs are illegal, you know, but drugs are well discussed on Rogan. Um, but I, I, it's one of those things. Take yourself out of your brain and be present. It's very hard.

• 50:15Chris Williamson?

  There's a limit though. There's a limit to taking yourself out of your brain. Like if I, if I have enough ketamine, I'm not on the same planet anymore. You're not having sex with me. I'm a vegetable.

• 50:24Zack Telander?

  I'm trying to get out into the astral plane, right? You know what I'm saying?

• 50:27Chris Williamson?

  That's where I am.

• 50:27Zack Telander?

  I'm trying to get out and look, be above the bed while we're fucking. I wanna, you know?

• 50:36Zack Telander?

  Like in, like in that movie with, um, you just get shoved into the astral plane.

• 50:44Chris Williamson?

  You're saying Benedict, Benedict Cumberbatch was trying to get all of his skills so that he could have sex in the astral plane?

• 50:50Zack Telander?

  Yes, exactly. Yes.

• 50:52Chris Williamson?

  I'm glad we're in agreement.

• 50:53Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Um, one, one thing I want to talk about, and actually dude, I could talk about that stuff all day. So that was a very interesting, but, um, one thing I want to talk about, my friend, uh, Ian, Ian Daniel, we know him as Ian the Rhino. Uh, he's a, he's a very strong dude, powerlifter. He has a background in CrossFit. So he went to the CrossFit Games twice as a team athlete. Um, and he went to like legit games. It wasn't like early on. These were very hard to qualify. He's a very, very, you know, accomplished individual. And, uh, let's see, I'm going to pull up the, the quote here because this is really interesting. Where are we at? Chris Williamson. There we go.

• 51:37Zack Telander?

  And CrossFit Games posted a picture of a woman athlete, and I gotta find out what her name is. Vicky Caruso. And in this picture, she honestly looks like, uh, single-digit body fat. On top of that, she has to perform these athletic feats and these feats of strength. So she did a 280-pound clean, which is a little bit under, uh, 130 kilos. For a female, that is insane. Okay. For an average gym-going male, that's as high as you're gonna get. Okay. And she has single-digit body fat. She has unbelievable leg veins, ab definition.

• 52:19Zack Telander?

  And she has, you know, it, it just doesn't seem legit. And the post that CrossFit Games posted, it was kind of like a repost? I want to pull it up because the reason I bring Ian up is that they, um, they took his comment down. And his comment was the highest rated, it had the most comments, and it was about the drug use and the PED use in a sport like CrossFit. God, I can't even find, I can't even find the original post because they posted so many times. Or they might've ta- oh, here it is, right here. So, this is what Vicky Caruso had said.

• 53:02Zack Telander?

  Naturally, the steroid comments come out. These comments don't even bother me anymore. I've been hearing about that stuff since I was 10 years old. Really? You've been hearing about steroid abuse since you were 10 years old? There's no way. And my legs, uh, my legs were more defined than most professional bodybuilders. And then all throughout running track in college, I was randomly chosen for drug tests. It doesn't bother me because I had nothing to hide and I still don't. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm a huge advocate for more drug testing. What bothers me is the fact that when people see someone do something they can't do, especially in the world of fitness, they automatically assume they're taking something.

• 53:44Zack Telander?

  I follow a fellow, I follow a lot of fellow athletes and every time I see someone hit a big lift or do something impressive, I'm happy for them. I've never once thought, oh, they're juicing because they're doing something I can't. If it comes out a couple of months later that they were on, that, that they were on, then joke's on me. But until then, let's start celebrating people's successes. Uh, we need to be positive and supportive of each other and stop comparing people. Okay, so if you look at this woman's profile, and you should definitely flash some of these pictures on screen, there is some crazy, uh, definition, stuff that you would see on bodybuilders.

• 54:26Zack Telander?

  And it is possible, it is absolutely possible to diet down and get everything perfectly if you are genetically capable of having that level of definition and vascularity. It is possible for her to do that single thing naturally. Now, is it possible for her to do that and clean 130 kilos? I would say no. And it would point me in the, in the direction of saying no. So this is where my friend Ian says this. "The idea that CrossFit is a natural sport at, at the most elite levels is literally the biggest non-truth told to its audience." That is, this is coming from a previous two times game competitor. "I'm tired of it. It's disingenuous to sell that idea to Gen Pop.

• 55:10Zack Telander?

  The use of peptides and fast-clearing steroid hormones is rampant and kept quiet."

• 55:16Zack Telander?

  I literally know of previous Reebok sponsored athletes who popped and were never disclosed because it would hurt the brand's image. Too much of fit, too much of fitness makes money off of using their elites to mislead people into what kinds of results are realistic through natural dieting and training. Cleaning 280 as a female with what appears to be single-digit body fat? Sorry, that's not how female, that's not how natural female physiology works. Now, when I took a screenshot of this, he had 227 likes on this, um, which was, you know, 50 times the next highest liked one. And I came back to it a couple hours later and there was 400 likes. Then I came back to it a couple hours later and it was gone.

• 56:02Zack Telander?

  Okay, the, the number one liked thing, the number one opinion on this was taken down, obviously by CrossFit Games themselves. Um, so it's, it's, it's interesting that you have a, a business that wants to be considered a legitimate, clean and fair sport, uh, when in reality, they would never, ever want to negatively affect their business by popping one of their own athletes. But they popped Ricky Gerard.

• 56:35Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And to me, I think, you know, that could have been the sacrificial lamb.

• 56:42Zack Telander?

  So for those listening, Ricky Gerard got third at the Games, um, whenever, whatever year that was, the CrossFit Games. And 2017. Then they, yeah. And then they ended up retroactively, uh, popping him for, for SARM. So he tested positive there. Now, a lot of people have been saying that that was a sacrificial lamb to say that CrossFit's like, look, we popped a guy who's, who was third place, you know, who was on the podium. But it's Ricky Gerard. No one knows who the hell he is. Matt Fraser, you know, Rich Froning, uh, any of the women, Tia Claire Toomey, whatever it is, maybe they're on, maybe they're not. But boy, if they ever tested positive, they would never do anything. You think?

• 57:26Zack Telander?

  I mean, oh yeah. If Rich Froning, I mean, for me, hall signs point to a lot of these guys using. I'll never know. Why? We will never know. Because why is because.

• 57:41Zack Telander?

  The game is recovery. So CrossFit especially, it is a sport where recovery could not be more important than anything else. Because you have to, every single day, do things that require mainly work capacity work. There are certain things that, that are like snatch, clean and jerk, you know, a single rep of each. But for the most part, we see 10 to 20 minute workouts where work capacity is being tested. And it's not entirely a skill-based sport. And I would say that about many different, you know, many different Olympic sports. You know, it's not, to me, the skill, the hard aspect of sports is adapting to certain stimulus when you need

• 58:24Zack Telander?

  to. Rugby, you have to make a move because you're, it's determined by your opponent. You have to change. No two movements are the same, ever, in rugby. It's all about what you can do with your mind. It takes a lot of skill in that way. In CrossFit, they literally, for one of the events, took a bunch of sandbags, brought them from one end of the arena to a wheelbarrow, they wheeled them across to the other side of the arena, and then they took those sandbags and walked them up the stairs. Just to show that this sport is about capacity. We are testing capacity. Who is capable of doing the most work?

• 59:03Chris Williamson?

  For the most part, CrossFit is just an accelerator and learning how hard to press the accelerator.

• 59:10Zack Telander?

  And, and who can do that the most efficiently and the best. And there's nothing wrong with that. But that leads me to believe that, honest to God, anabolic and androgens couldn't work in a, couldn't work better in any sport. They would benefit a CrossFitter more than most other sports androgens could benefit them. Because of the recovery aspect of it. Because it's pure gas pedal, it's pure motor, it's pure engine. Whereas, you know what, here's another one, cycling. But see, that's cycling, if it's the multiple day efforts, yeah, cycling is very similar.

• 59:52Chris Williamson?

  Recovery. Low skill.

• 59:55Zack Telander?

  Low skill, just effort. Just go. You know, you have to think about when you're going to do something, when you're going to move, whatever. But for the most part, it's just who can recover the most.

• 1:00:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think strategy and skill are two slightly different techniques. Like you can have your strategy in your mind and that doesn't mean you're not skilled at what you do. But yeah, I um, didn't, didn't Matt Fraser say on Rogan, wasn't his excuse, I don't know if steroids would help? Didn't he say that?

• 1:00:23Zack Telander?

  I don't think he said that. I don't think he.

• 1:00:25Chris Williamson?

  I've heard someone use that. Maybe it was Brent Fickeowski. I've heard someone.

• 1:00:29Zack Telander?

  Yeah, steroids, they damn near help with everything, literally everything.

• 1:00:35Chris Williamson?

  But they're not. So the problem that CrossFit has is it's like the UFC back in the day where it's got an internal doping accreditation.

• 1:00:43Zack Telander?

  Yes, and people want to shit on USADA and they can, you know, but for the most part, look at, look at the size of the men in the UFC now. Look at, look at the body types in the UFC now. It is noticeably different.

• 1:00:55Chris Williamson?

  Dude, when you go back and look at like the single digit UFC's, like UFC seven or something.

• 1:01:01Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And that's the thing is like, you know, yeah, sure, they're probably doing peptides. They're probably doing, um, you know, fast clearing steroids, but it's not at the level of what it used to be. And that's better. Um, CrossFit right now, it's like, dude, I don't, I don't know, I don't know how it works. It's very confusing. You know, if they got USADA involved, that could be very cool. I think that'd be very great.

• 1:01:27Chris Williamson?

  But why would they do it? What would, what, why would they, what's the incentive for CrossFit?

• 1:01:31Zack Telander?

  That's the thing is what's the incentive for even addressing this? That's what I would say, Chris, is like, why the fuck did CrossFit even talk about this? They shouldn't have even brought it up. It's like, if they just stay silent, if we're talking purely business, like, yeah, why would they have USADA on? Because it's just business. We're making money. We're doing well. We're going up, baby. But we're talking about morality here. Okay. So if we want to ignore morality, just don't even fucking bring up steroids. Cause that's what it is. That's the real discussion here is morality. It's here are the rules. Are you going to break them in the name of what you think is right or what is right? That's ultimately the question. This is something that my father has spent most of his

• 1:02:12Zack Telander?

  years talking about. Most of his career as a journalist has talked about the morality of steroid use because he covered the Chicago Cubs when they had Sammy Sosa and it was Sammy Sosa versus Mark McGuire. He, he has had multiple cover stories on Sports Illustrated about athletes using, he talks about it in the Olympics, in, in American football, in baseball. This is what I've heard my entire life. This is not new to me. And what, if we are CrossFit and we are just a business, and we don't care about us being a legitimate sport, because when you are a legitimate sport, there is some sort of morality contract that you have to sign. That's what the UFC realized. If they want to be treated like a legitimate sport, they have to get USADA. They have to be

• 1:02:57Zack Telander?

  somewhat moral. It can't just be a Wild Wild West shit show of a promotion where they just put big guy versus small guy, like Pride used to be.

• 1:03:08Chris Williamson?

  Big shareholders now, which the CrossFit doesn't. CrossFit's still a private company.

• 1:03:13Zack Telander?

  Yes. And, and that's, yeah, they're, the more legitimate you try to make yourself, this is the thing is like, people want to ignore, uh, they, they want the freak show. They want the Jake Paul fight. But at the end of the day, I don't think they really do. The more legitimate you can make, whatever your platform, the more steps you have to take to ignore business and, and capitalistic mindsets. CrossFit, as far as business goes and, and capital goes, yeah, it is not in their best interest to get USADA. It costs a lot of fucking money to do that. And, and for what? For what?

• 1:03:57Chris Williamson?

  To lose potentially a big chunk of your games roster.

• 1:04:01Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Or, you know, maybe things change, maybe whatever it may be. But

• 1:04:08Zack Telander?

  Part of it is, we want to show that this is a real sport. You know, and these are the sacrifices you have to make. The UFC has done a lot over the years to be like, hey, guys, this isn't just some freak show. You remember when UFC was starting and people were like, this is archaic. This is disgusting. This is like, you know, like, most states still in America don't allow UFC fights to happen. Because it's just like, it's too scary. It's too sketchy. When really now, it's like, everyone watches UFC. Even my dad, who thinks, who used to think it was, you know, too sketchy, too, too, too rough. Now he watches it. And that's because they took that stance against drugs.

• 1:04:48Zack Telander?

  I think that in order, if CrossFit wants to make this argument where they're being unfairly judged on the drug use in it, they have to start making moves. So to repost that woman's post and say, hey, a lot of us are getting critiqued on steroid use, when the reality is, you don't know what's going on. It's like, well, what are you doing to make us believe that people are clean? Nothing. They're not doing anything.

• 1:05:14Chris Williamson?

  Who would you say off the top roster, if you had to pick a couple of people that were the highest likelihood of them being on gear? Who would you pick?

• 1:05:24Chris Williamson?

  I'll go first. Noah Olson.

• 1:05:27Zack Telander?

  Yeah, this is the type of stuff that gets you in trouble.

• 1:05:29Chris Williamson?

  It gets you in trouble. I'm not in the fitness industry. I don't give a fuck. You can pass. You can pass if you want.

• 1:05:38Zack Telander?

  I mean, I said Rich Froning. I've, I've said that. And the reason I said Rich Froning is the longevity and the performance and the age.

• 1:05:47Chris Williamson?

  He's what, 35, 36 now?

• 1:05:50Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and he's

• 1:05:51Chris Williamson?

  Still crushing it.

• 1:05:52Zack Telander?

  Yeah, better than ever, you know, and it's not a sport. I think it, I think it's one of those things where it should be a sport for the young.

• 1:06:01Chris Williamson?

  It is.

• 1:06:01Zack Telander?

  It should be a, yeah.

• 1:06:03Chris Williamson?

  Fucking, so I was talking to Ben Bergeron about this. And he was saying that for this new CompTrain Academy, if you're over 26, they're not looking at you. 26. If you're older than 26, they're not looking at you because it's going to take a few years to develop you from where you need to be and blah, blah.

• 1:06:27Chris Williamson?

  It is a young person's sport because it's about recovery. And here's another-

• 1:06:31Zack Telander?

  And that's why, listen, if it's about recovery, man, androgens are being fucking used. I will say that, honest to God, anyone who's listening, who's a CrossFitter, or who will listen and see this as CrossFitters, like, you have to be skeptical. And if it doesn't matter to you, then that's fine. If you think everyone's doping and it doesn't fucking matter, fine, that's great. But do not say that it's incredibly likely that your hero, your guy, is not taking, or girl, or female, either one.

• 1:07:03Chris Williamson?

  There's no assurances. Until they get a more robust testing procedure in place, there's no assurances that-

• 1:07:08Zack Telander?

  And even then, it's not, it's not an assurance. It's not a for sure, but it definitely helps.

• 1:07:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Zack Telander?

  It definitely helps. USADA is a, they are a bunch of Nazis, bro. They will fuck you up. If, they do not give a fuck. They might not be able to catch you, but if they do catch you, you're fucked. They're not gonna report to CrossFit and CrossFit's gonna determine your outcome. Once you sign up with USADA, they do whatever the fuck they want.

• 1:07:33Chris Williamson?

  Game over. Yeah, there's no safe word. There's no way to get out of this alive.

• 1:07:37Zack Telander?

  Yeah, we gotta protect this guy? No, that's not the case. They're gonna get you.

• 1:07:41Chris Williamson?

  Did you see that Mark Zuckerberg lost $6 billion in a day when Facebook was down?

• 1:07:49Zack Telander?

  Listen, man, if he takes my Instagram away from me, once more, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I think if he does, he should go bankrupt. No, I'm kidding. That's, that's the sort of shit that's just, it's, is it wrong that I feel good about it?

• 1:08:05Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. So he went, on the world's richest list, he dropped from number two, I think, sorry, from number three to number five. So it's Elon Musk, 210 billion, Jeff Bezos, 185 billion, Bernard Arnault?

• 1:08:26Chris Williamson?

  Fuck knows who he is. What's he doing with all of these big names? 153 billion. Bill Gates, 124. Mark Zuckerberg, the Zack, 121. Big fat drop off. Mark Zuckerberg's personal wealth has fallen by more than $6 billion in a few hours, knocking him down a notch on the list of the world's richest people after a whistleblower came forward and outages took Facebook Inc.'s flagship products offline. A sell-off sent the social media giant's stock plummeting 4.9% on Monday, adding to a drop of about 15% since September. The stock slide on Monday sent Zuckerberg's worth down to 121.6 billion, dropping him below Bill Gates, number five on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index.

• 1:09:08Chris Williamson?

  He's down from almost 140 billion in a matter of weeks, according to the index. Shit, son.

• 1:09:19Zack Telander?

  Man, he's still got $121 billion. So why, I don't give a shit about Mark Zuckerberg's personal wealth.

• 1:09:28Chris Williamson?

  Did you watch the, have you been seeing the whistleblower stuff, that lady that came forward?

• 1:09:33Zack Telander?

  About the Pandora Papers?

• 1:09:34Chris Williamson?

  No, the Facebook internal employee who's been releasing all of these documents.

• 1:09:39Zack Telander?

  No, I haven't, I haven't.

• 1:09:41Chris Williamson?

  This is wild. So it's kind of, it's weird because everybody from the outside looking in, especially since, what was that Netflix documentary about social media?

• 1:09:52Zack Telander?

  Oh, God.

• 1:09:53Chris Williamson?

  Fuck. That one.

• 1:09:56Zack Telander?

  Yes.

• 1:09:57Chris Williamson?

  Since, since that one came out, everyone's sort of known. Everyone's had it in the back of their minds that, look, this is, this is pretty fucked. The algorithms are manipulating us. They're telling us things. They're changing our behavior. They're making us feel a certain way, making people fearful, limbic hijack, racing to the bottom of the brainstem, like all of this, like fuck, who, who's surprised by this? People like Tristan Harris have been talking about this shit for literally four or five years publicly, the ex-design ethicist at Google. But the difference now, I don't know why, maybe it's just because. Maybe I'm overestimating or underestimating how normie the normies are.

• 1:10:38Chris Williamson?

  Like, you have to be pretty fucking normie to not know that Facebook and WhatsApp and Instagram are doing this sort of shit to people.

• 1:10:44Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:45Chris Williamson?

  But maybe I'm, maybe I'm giving them too much credit.

• 1:10:49Zack Telander?

  But being aware of it, does that make you any better? Does that change your psyche at all?

• 1:10:53Chris Williamson?

  No, but it wouldn't mean, like, I'm not surprised. This woman's come forward and said, in the reports, we have verifiable information. Facebook's internal team has information saying that Instagram actually hurts the body image of young girls, that it causes increases in suicidal ideation, that there is like a, they reckon that they're between 3% and 5% of global conflict is due to Facebook. They police the platform, they manage to get a particular percentage, but they police almost all of the comments and the content on the platform in English, and English only accounts for 9% of all of the content that's produced on Facebook. So overall, what you end up with is

• 1:11:38Chris Williamson?

  the world now being told through a whistleblower that what people presumed for a very long time, and it already backwards engineered, that this was actually happening and they're aware of it. It's like, do you not think, they, they see the fucking algorithms, they make the algorithms. Like, yeah, obviously they know that this is going on. We knew it was going on and we don't have access to the algorithms. But obviously this was going to happen. But, so yeah, this lady's come forward and basically said that there's a huge cache of internal documents, 10,000 pages that she siphoned off over quite a long time. And then she left in May and revealed them and these documents came out. And then she did a 60 Minutes interview, which you can watch on YouTube.

• 1:12:18Chris Williamson?

  And then she gave a three hour address to the House of Congress or some shit the other day as well. And yeah, I mean, it's a bad week. To be Mark Zuckerberg, it's, it's a pretty bad week.

• 1:12:30Zack Telander?

  Well, okay, the movie's called The Social Dilemma.

• 1:12:33Chris Williamson?

  That was it.

• 1:12:34Zack Telander?

  And, and, um, you know, it's funny that like the whistleblower comes out to say that water is wet, essentially. Oh, you know, it causes, you know, young females to negatively think about their body. Wow. Shocker. You know, causes more suicidal ideations? Shocker. You know, this is all something that people have been talking about for a long time.

• 1:12:54Chris Williamson?

  So why is it news?

• 1:12:56Zack Telander?

  Well, because it's now from the people that made it. It's coming directly from the people that made it. It's like, uh, you know, if anyone, if anyone in politics, if we theorize that something has happened and everyone theorizes, it's like if literally,

• 1:13:15Zack Telander?

  what's his name? I can't, um, Epstein, right? It's like if his prison guards literally came out and said, "We killed Epstein." Okay, something we all knew, but now it's coming from the, the mouth of the actual people that were doing it. It's a little bit different.

• 1:13:35Chris Williamson?

  I think.

• 1:13:36Zack Telander?

  It's a little bit more, you know, that, that might not be the best analogy, but you know what I mean? It's coming directly from the people that are creating the algorithms that are creating these problems.

• 1:13:45Chris Williamson?

  I don't know if it's better for Facebook to have the power of gods to be able to manipulate the way that culture works. And if they were blind to it, like, what, what was the best that people could have hoped for? Because the effect hasn't changed. People, we already knew that young girls' mental health was being impacted by social media, that people were becoming addicted to their devices, that most people report that in retrospect, they wish they'd spent less time on their phones, so on and so forth. We knew that that was happening.

• 1:14:15Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 1:14:17Chris Williamson?

  Is it, what, what were we presuming before we saw this document? That, that Facebook were like culpably deniable, willfully ignorant? Like, no, they obviously, in order to be able to enact those, those effects, they have to actually know the way that this works.

• 1:14:33Zack Telander?

  No, and that's what I'm saying is like, it almost like skepticism and theory and, and, uh, you know, conspiracy theory, like, will never, ever be legitimate because it doesn't make people, like, people just always want to know exactly if it is or if it isn't. They want to know, no matter what they observe. They need to, it needs to be declared what it is. And it's like, yeah, what did we expect before was like, no, we didn't expect anything different, but we just kind of went, eh, you gotta move on. Right? But now, since it's legitimate, there's people saying, "Oh yeah, fuck, this is a fucking problem." And they've known it's been a problem, but now it's like, okay, you know, it's, it's like, um, you know, humans salivate over the potential to have something be cut and fucking dry.

• 1:15:19Zack Telander?

  You know, because there's always this dichotomy between good and bad throughout everything and people who are always running in their brains to determine which side to be on of any debate. Now it's like we are sure and it feels good. It feels really good to hate on Mark Zuckerberg. You know what I mean?

• 1:15:38Chris Williamson?

  Not as good as it feels to hate on Mark Ripeto. Feels better.

• 1:15:44Zack Telander?

  I look, I don't hate on him. I don't hate on the man for real.

• 1:15:47Chris Williamson?

  Where can people go to access your alt-right libertarian YouTube channel?

• 1:15:53Zack Telander?

  Just go to my YouTube channel, Zach Tellander, Z A C K space T E L A N D E R. And yeah, you can go there. And if you guys want to learn how to weightlift, go to my Patreon, patreon.com/zachtellander. And if you want to watch me do more stuff, go to my Instagram, coach underscore Z T. And that's it.

• 1:16:12Chris Williamson?

  Easy. We're out.