The #1 Reason People Regret Their Relationships - Dr Shannon Curry

Dr. Shannon Curry is a clinical psychologist, researcher, and speaker. Modern adult relationships are complicated. With endless talk of red flags, green flags, icks etc., it can be tough to know who’s truly worth your time. So how do you build a lasting, healthy relationship when you're ready for one? Expect to learn what the biggest red flags are to look out for in a partner, the green flags you should look for, the most common reasons why relationships fail, how to see the beauty instead of the challenges in your partner, how you can unlearn the way you argue, how to create longevity in a relationship, the best advice for stopping intrusive thoughts or unwanted worries about your partner, how to move on from heartbreak, and much more… - 0:00 Trade-Offs in Choosing a Partner 06:00 The Importance of Flexibility 10:43 Three Key Traits to Look For 18:53 Are There Clear Red Flag Traits? 21:51 Is it Bad to Be Very Different to Your Partner? 34:53 Can We Unlearn How We Argue & Disagree? 40:17 Why We’re Drawn to Partners We Want to Fix 43:34 The Best Way to Bring an Issue Up to Resolve 47:20 Why Friendship Is So Important in Relationships 51:54 Things That Predict Relationship Longevity 59:06 How to Let Go of Bad Patterns From Previous Relationships 1:05:25 How to Get Over a Breakup 1:17:22 Where to Find Shannon - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  On October 2nd.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Tom Cruise is.

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 0:24Speaker 02

  I'm not the first then.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R, under 17, not admitted without parent.

• 0:30Chris Williamson?

  Getting married is just choosing one person's faults over another. Is that right?

• 0:36Speaker 04

  Did I say that?

• 0:37Chris Williamson?

  You said that.

• 0:38Speaker 04

  I know that is from somebody who works with the Gottmans, but yeah, essentially the grass is always greener on the other side. So I find that incredibly freeing as soon as we realize that we are going to be living with somebody who has a lot of faults and can we tolerate those faults and can they tolerate ours? Then you are starting on solid ground.

• 1:01Chris Williamson?

  It's an interesting thing. You're looking at a familiar type of discomfort and the deal that you're really trading it for is not familiar discomfort for unfamiliar comfort, but familiar discomfort for unfamiliar discomfort.

• 1:16Speaker 04

  Exactly, I, that's very well said. Give me an example.

• 1:21Chris Williamson?

  You have a partner that is not quite as tender as you might like. They're not as loving you, staring at the night sky. You really wish they would say something high flown and thoughtful, but they, they start singing a song that they heard yesterday or, or playing a tune or something like that, or they, you know, they make a joke and you think, I just really want somebody that's so deep and does, you know, is there. And then you decide to switch for another partner and you're at a party and your previous partner would have been, you know, really involved in the conversation. It would have made you, given you something that you could have bonded over. But at the new party with the new partner, this, this partner sort of needs your attention all of the time and, and they don't really allow you to connect.

• 2:03Chris Williamson?

  So you have certain elements of discomfort traded for other elements of discomfort. One person is phenomenal to watch movies with because they don't interrupt and they just like to sit there and be calm. But the next person that you bring along is really interesting and engaging when you have conversations about stuff that fires you up and you end up making these trades. There is, there are no solutions, only trade offs.

• 2:27Speaker 04

  There are only trade offs and although I do believe that Tai Tashiro, a psychologist and researcher, came up or really identified three key qualities that can make it easier. So if a person has these three key qualities, really, this sets the groundwork for having an easier time managing the set of problems because there's so much good there to make up for it. And those things aren't necessarily what we usually shoot for. They're more solid and it makes sense. If you're trying to be with somebody for years and years and you're

• 3:10Speaker 04

  going to be living with them every day and all of their idiosyncrasies. Can you say that word for me?

• 3:16Chris Williamson?

  Idiosyncrasies.

• 3:18Speaker 04

  Idiosyncrasies.

• 3:19Chris Williamson?

  I think so.

• 3:20Speaker 04

  It's one extra syllable I keep putting in there. So idiosyncrasies, essentially, you want somebody who's solid and who is consistently reminding you of what a decent, wonderful human being they are so that those idiosyncrasies fall away and aren't the central focus. Whereas if somebody is really cool or good looking or kind of witty, that might help a little bit. But if they are self-absorbed or unkind, then whatever other issues you traded off for are going to be really glaring and staring at you in the face.

• 3:57Chris Williamson?

  Dig into that a little bit more for me. What did he find?

• 3:59Speaker 04

  So Tai Tashiro, he actually looked at, first of all, he realized that people who stayed together, for the most part, the large proportion of them are chronically unhappy. And there's a small minority who are actually, they stay married long term and they report a high level of satisfaction, not only in their partnership, but in their sex lives. And it can actually increase with age. And so out of that small minority, he wanted to know, are there any correlates? Are there inequalities? You know, he looked at personality, he looked at race, he looked at age, he looked at all sorts of demographics of how they came together. And there were actually three core personality traits that he found

• 4:44Speaker 04

  represented more than others. And those were conscientiousness, number one.

• 4:51Speaker 04

  Flexibility, number two, really low neuroticism is what we call it. So it's not a neurotic person. This person's pretty easygoing, flexible. And then the third is low to moderate adventurousness. And I always say to my clients on this, because I'm constantly advising my clients on this, this doesn't mean they don't want to hike or travel. Everybody likes to hike and travel. I mean, I don't really like to hike, but everybody has some adventurousness in the traditional sense. But if you think of those of us who are constantly looking at new shiny things, that's high adventurousness. And high adventurousness might mean that you are constantly starting new projects or running a business and you constantly have new ideas. It can also mean

• 5:35Speaker 04

  that you're constantly attracted to new, exciting people. Doesn't mean you're going to cheat. It just means that you are somebody whose focus is constantly wandering and it can be very difficult to get your focus and attention, which diminishes intimacy and connection at home. So you can understand why you'd actually want somebody who is really just easygoing, the rock. They focus on their family. They constantly understand what's important. They, you know, they just are satisfied with a simpler life. And I am happy to say my husband is that way. You just need one person who has these qualities, by the way, because usually that

• 6:18Speaker 04

  incredibly conscientious, flexible, solid, rounded person is also much more tolerable and forgiving. So it works out for both parties.

• 6:30Chris Williamson?

  What is flexible in this context? Because neuroticism, for me, in the classic big five, is sort of predisposition to low affect, low mood, etc. But I know lots of people who have a tendency toward low mood that make pretty great partners, and I would also describe as quite flexible. So I'm guessing it's a slightly different definition.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. So the big five. Neuroticism is we're talking about mental illness, really. And, and the truth is severe or untreated mental illness does predict difficulties in relationships. And I mean, that's just this common sense, right? If you have somebody who is shifting moods or, and I struggle with depression. So there are periods where I am not myself. I am treated, I have extremely high insight into it. I take responsibility for it. I catch it very early and I'm very good at functioning on it. But, uh, on it like a drug, which is actually kind of what it feels like. It's a temporary state. But that is not easy for me to un, without notice, kind of shift out of my normal personality

• 7:33Speaker 04

  for about two weeks until it passes. You can understand how that alone would be difficult. Now you add lack of insight into that, or somebody who isn't managing it, or isn't treating it, doesn't have a plan in place, doesn't really know what it is, or is even in denial. That's a nightmare. That's like having a third party in the relationship. It's really, or, or even, it's a lot like substance abuse in a relationship where there is this other thing that is stealing away your partner for periods of time. And, um, it can be really tough if there isn't acknowledgement.

• 8:05Chris Williamson?

  It's just endogenous. It's coming from inside of them, except from outside of them.

• 8:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah. But in terms of the flexibility, so we want somebody who is, yeah, we do want somebody relatively stable, but I think even with mental illness, you can have that stability and ownership and management of it. And I think sort of that's the goal is if you have something like a major depressive disorder, which by its nature is a recurring sort of chronic mental illness, then is the person managing it or is it, or is it just this unmanaged kind of chaotic thing that influences the relationship? The other part of flexibility and low neuroticism, um, and the reason I use the word flexibility is because I think more important than the focus on mental illness, which I think can get skewed, is, is this person, um, open and adaptable?

• 8:56Speaker 04

  Is this person somebody who, when you're traveling, they are an absolute nightmare? Their eyes kind of bug out in the airport, they get really weird and snappy? Um, or is this somebody who is relaxed? Remember Aiden in Sex and the City?

• 9:09Chris Williamson?

  Never watched it.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  I don't know how much.

• 9:11Chris Williamson?

  You're talking to the wrong guy.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  The pinnacle of flexibility. Just, you know, you don't, your hostess gave up your table. It's just sort of like, don't forget us, we'll wait outside. Whatever happens kind of happens. Very Buddhist non-attachment. And I mean, truly, that's one of the secrets to happiness. I would say it's also the secret to happiness in a relationship.

• 9:34Chris Williamson?

  What's the role of conscientiousness?

• 9:37Speaker 04

  That one's my favorite. Um, that's role kindness and it doesn't have to look sappy. Uh, my husband is incredibly manly. He's Australian, he's tall, he doesn't talk too much and he can seem, um, a little bit intimidating, I think. But he is the kindest, most conscientious person. He is someone who anticipates your needs, incredibly thoughtful, but it's not to get something in return. It's really the, just this caring, this unbelievable sustained empathy and caring for others. So some, he brings me coffee every morning. He checks my phone to see if I've made a mistake with my alarm. And, uh, you know, he's sort of an ADD coach with me and he does it with kindness and compassion

• 10:22Speaker 04

  and just has these little built-in routines that he seems to do effortlessly. And, um, that make me feel incredibly grateful for him all the time throughout the day. There are multiple times throughout my day where I reflect actively on how fucking grateful I am for my husband. And so you can imagine if you have somebody who is that conscientious, that you're just blown away after 10 years, every day. That kind of gratitude really instills intimacy. It creates romance. It creates perpetual romance. And that's why that study that Taisha Shiro did, he found that these people who had these qualities in their relationships,

• 11:05Speaker 04

  they were reporting higher satisfaction in their sex lives into their sixties and seventies. It just continues to grow rather than diminish.

• 11:12Chris Williamson?

  So this was a longitudinal study that was done in a relatively sort of academic setting?

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Yes, he did a large scale longitudinal study and um he's fantastic.

• 11:24Chris Williamson?

  Those three traits were predictive conscientiousness, which is being a combination of thoughtful and kind.

• 11:33Speaker 04

  You know, I'm not, I don't want to get too into definitions in case I mistake something, but um the way I understand conscientiousness. And there are different personality models, right? And each personality model and not all, not every personality. There's really no one personality model that has ever gotten it completely right. They've all been dispelled in certain regards. But the way that I see conscientiousness as a whole across different personality models is uh it's got a couple of things combined. So it's not just nice. Nice to me can also mean low self-esteem, a pushover, um trying to be liked. Conscientiousness may not even look super smiley friendly. It's more of an action.

• 12:16Speaker 04

  So to me, it is somebody who's smart enough to actually notice and anticipate somebody's needs. My husband is incredibly observant and um it's something that continues to also bring up admiration. So it's got that.

• 12:31Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 12:32Speaker 04

  Observational quality, intelligence, and then also motivation. You can't be lazy um and then.

• 12:38Chris Williamson?

  They're industrious. They go and get things done.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  They're industrious. Exactly.

• 12:42Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. I was more thinking, I was trying to sort of interpret it, I guess, into the language of romance. But yes, if you're talking straight up, what is conscientiousness? I think good definition. Uh they are flexible psychologically. If there is some sort of perturbation, they end up getting back to baseline in not an insane amount of time. If something occurs, they're able to adapt to it, which is maybe distinct, but kind of sounds a little bit like a subset of agency, which I would put not too far away from conscientiousness as well.

• 13:12Speaker 04

  Is agency.

• 13:14Chris Williamson?

  Right. Okay. So you want highly agentic partner.

• 13:16Speaker 04

  You're so smart.

• 13:17Chris Williamson?

  Uh, thank you.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm gonna have to up my game now. On a different level.

• 13:22Chris Williamson?

  Um, and then uh your final one, you want a degree of openness to new experience. Presumably that's somebody that just doesn't want to sit on their ass all the time. It helps to keep things exciting. But that is something that you can overshoot for uh and you end up with someone who is going to be. Very open socio sexually, they're going to be looking for.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  High adventurousness predicts cheating.

• 13:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, correct. So, okay, that's interesting is three traits. I guess a question would be, let's say that you are on an early date with someone or you're early into a relationship. What are some of the ways that you can adjudicate how much or how little of those traits your partner has?

• 14:03Speaker 04

  You know, this is the great question.

• 14:07Speaker 04

  I learned about these, I'm going to speak from my own experience, okay? So I've experienced this because I knew about these traits before I met Ty. And I absolutely intended to try this out. When I learned about them, I was actually dating somebody I, we were not happy. And that person, I would say lacked these traits. Both of us probably lacked these traits, to be completely fair. But we were in a conference together, watching Ty Tashiro speak about this. And I remember sitting there at this conference, not having a particularly good time with

• 14:47Speaker 04

  the person I was with, and thinking, I can do this, I can follow instructions. And the reason I also thought that was because Ty Tashiro was emphasizing how difficult this is, that our evolutionary brains really want, so if we're talking about a straight female, we want that strong jawline, we want somebody who's all brawn, we want money, we want height, we want protection for our yum. I, and he actually did this experiment where he had everybody raise their hands if they were a straight, male, single. And so you had about 100 men in this room raise their hands. And he was mimicking the average dating experience. So you go online, you're a straight woman,

• 15:32Speaker 04

  you want a straight man, single. And then he says, so how many of you are between the ages of 35 and 45? So let's say now you've got about 50 hands up. And then he said, how many of you are Catholic? And you've got maybe 20 hands up. How many of you make over 200,000 a year? You've got, I don't know, 50 hands up. How many of you are six feet tall, one hand? So you can see that this completely diminishes our pool. So really what he was doing was, in fact, the book he wrote is called The Science of Happily Ever After, and he talks about three wishes. Statistically speaking, you'll get married. If that's something you want, you're going to get married. Most people in society do.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  But you really get to choose three things guaranteed, and then your pool goes down. And if you want hotness, height, and money, you might have a person who's a complete selfish asshole. And that's where you think, like, are there those problems, ones, that you're going to be able to deal with just because the person's hot in 20 years? Or are you gonna be so sick of their shit that you don't care how hot they are? So that's really what it comes down to. So your question was, how do we adjudicate this? How do we find somebody with these qualities? What I can tell you is that I knew it was gonna be hard, but I also know that I love science.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  And so if this was as sound as he said it was, I could do it. And I knew that the biggest thing, the biggest thing in my way, was just to get rid of that evolutionary urge for hotness. The night I met Ty, so I broke up with the person I was with that day. I moved back to California, immediately got on Tinder. This was 2015, so Tinder was kind of it. And I also didn't know what I was doing. I was new to apps. And got on Tinder. I will tell you what. With that mindset that I didn't care about hotness, money, or height, I realized there were so many lovely eligible bachelors. And so I was just swiping away, swipe, swipe, swipe.

• 17:45Speaker 04

  Ty was one of the first people to respond. He was online, and so was this male model. And the male model was that baseline instinct in me. I was just like, and you, even though you're putting up a lot of like ab pictures. Oh, I just can't help it. So I actually had two contenders. I lived this. And Ty, I didn't know what he actually looked like. He was wearing a giraffe costume on his main picture, which I thought was funny. And there were some pictures of him working, but he had like hard hat stuff. So I really, I had no idea he was hot and Australian and 6'2". I mean, I did win in this case. But...

• 18:23Speaker 04

  I'm texting, I'm messaging him, I'm messaging this other guy. Ty is so wonderful and he's just asking me these really intelligent questions. Sort of like this conversation, right? So you're one of those rare ones who has all of those qualities. Ladies, watch out. But he, I could just tell he was wonderful and we're talking. You can tell if you know what these three things are. I could just tell, I just needed to be aware of them. It was there and he kind of became more of a friend. And in the meantime, this model is sending me like emojis of wet splashes and asking if I want a massage. Granted, I was on Tinder, I need to be fair, but, and I kept talking to the model.

• 19:08Speaker 04

  I just couldn't help myself. But after about 24 hours, I was done with the model guy. Ty was just becoming this friend and then something kind of scary happened with my work two weeks later. And I realized I wanted to tell my friend about it and that's how it evolved.

• 19:23Chris Williamson?

  If that's green flags, is there an equivalent for red flags? Are there traits that are highly, I guess, not being conscientious, not being flexible, not being open to new experiences? A way to look at that, but is there a different category of thing to other traits that people have that are highly predictive of relationships going badly?

• 19:46Speaker 04

  I mean, so one of the, one of the things where we actually, couples therapy is contraindicated is if there is character logical abuse. And what that means, I mean, so when somebody is engaged in character logical abuse, you're usually seeing somebody who is really interested in power. They like to diminish the other person. They usually actually have very low self-esteem, but you'll see these little digs. And when it's really scary, there's a certain type of this person who so that characterological abuse, you can think of as a behavior that is tied to somebody's enduring personality. So it's behavioral, but there is a personality factor there that is seeking

• 20:29Speaker 04

  power and control. And then there are these subsets of different personality types within that. So you can have somebody that is, you know, wavers between truly trying to be better. But they're so insecure that they're still going to kind of put you down, but they don't necessarily get a calming effect when they zing you. And then there's this very scary kind of viper personality. I think the Gottmans called it in their research where you actually, if you have a pulse oximeter on them, they'll zing the person and their heart rate gets real low after like it just scratched an itch for them. They feel better. And then you've just got plain bullies who are going to be that way to everybody and they just

• 21:10Speaker 04

  sort of, it's like a bull in a china chop. And they're just cruel. So either way, that is a big predictor of an unhappiness. And then there are these, you know, you can see this a lot of times with a lack of conscientiousness. If you see anything cruel or really that is willing to put you out, really put you out without reciprocation. I mean, this is a really hard thing to quantify. It's sort of, you know it when you see it. But somebody who, because they're so obsessed with their car, anything that's power related. So they're so obsessed with their car being perfect. You matter less than that. And so they're

• 21:53Speaker 04

  going to park almost in a paranoid way, like a mile away from the restaurant, away from any other cars, so that nobody dared ding their precious car. It doesn't matter that you're going to have to walk in heels. It doesn't matter that nobody is likely going to ding their car. They're so obsessed with their things, their possessions, that you're likely to eventually be a possession of them as well.

• 22:18Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, that's interesting. Do you think there's such a thing as being too different from our partner? What a, what a deal breaker differences.

• 22:25Speaker 04

  I actually don't. I mean, well, let me, uh, let me think about this. So.

• 22:34Speaker 04

  I think the research would suggest that actually has very little to do with compatibility. That's one of those myths and that really what matters is connection. Are you building connection with your partner? Are you guys attuned to one another's worlds? Are you being good friends to one another? Do you manage conflict well? Do you check in with each other about what's going on in your lives? So you can have, in fact, my husband and I are very different in so many ways. I always talk about how he's the kind of person who enjoys having a conversation while the TV is on because he's just so excited to socialize. I would prefer to disappear into a book or a computer. And, uh, you know, he loves to, he is just a social butterfly.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  I can do it and I do it for my work and I'm really engaged with somebody when I have that set time to be engaged. But, uh, then I'm done, I'm out. And for him, it is natural. He wants to do things all the time. I don't. Our humor is very, very different. We like the same music, but I think you'll find these kinds of key differences with anyone. I mean, our careers, I'm a psychologist. He was working on an oil rig when I first met him. Very different career paths, different educational levels. There is some research that suggested that people usually marry somebody with a similar educational level and appearance. But I don't think that has anything to do with longevity or happiness.

• 23:59Speaker 04

  So it really, I mean, I would say that the majority of the solid research out there supports, and my own relationship would support, that it's about connection and what you're actually doing to keep the relationship alive.

• 24:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's an interesting one. I think opposites attract might not be entirely accurate, but, uh, you need to have some level of resonance and I think you need to agree on your fundamental principles and values of how you see the world. If you think that a family should be built like X, but your partner thinks that a family should be built like Y, that's probably going to be pretty predictive of things being difficult down the line.

• 24:39Speaker 04

  Well, I know what you're saying. So what you're saying is essentially if you have these key core differences. Positions on things. So whether it's really different views on politics that you feel your partner's view is fundamentally in opposition to your value system, right? Or similar value differences, spiritual differences, financial differences. Those are what are called perpetual problems. And every couple actually has them. In fact, 70% of every couple's arguments are made up of these arguments around perpetual problems that will never, ever get solved.

• 25:18Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 25:18Speaker 04

  So there are some that I think are more of an issue than others, but usually that actually has more to do with the way the couple is addressing the issues. Because underlying these issues are these sort of dreams or value systems that we have. Sometimes they're tied to our childhood. Um, let me think of a good example. So, um, let, do you have an example for me of somebody who, a couple that would have one of these problems you feel like that would be fundamentally difficult to overcome?

• 25:49Chris Williamson?

  I think anybody who disagrees about how you should raise a child or the, the way that education should be done, um, looking at how the homes run, um, you know, how the environment is supposed to be run, um, and expectations around that, sort of the, the sharing of workload and, and, and stuff like that. Um, I mean, I would imagine that if you have incompatibility in terms of how much sex is the right amount of sex.

• 26:17Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 26:18Chris Williamson?

  That.

• 26:18Speaker 04

  Couples deal with that all the time. I would say most couples that come to my office, and by the way, I have a lot of couples that come in preemptively. I have amazing, amazing couples and clients who truly just want, like you, they're very interested in personal growth and learning and optimizing this life. So I work with people who are really happily married. Most people have incompatible sex drives or incompatible normals in terms, I have one freaky couple I love and they have always been compatible and it's amazing. Um, it is just some, it's a way they connect really well, but they are, I always say to them, like, guys, you can't tell anybody about this because you're just

• 26:59Speaker 04

  gonna make the rest of us feel bad. Most people are struggling with some sort of variation in sex drive. And in fact, every single example you just gave me, so different household roles, which is also so fascinating because you're naming off. It's very interesting to me about you, how perceptive you are to these things that are actually main areas of research in relationship psychology. So roles within the household, the way that we raise children, and even roles within the household, the handout I have on that, where I have couples circle their ideal roles. I mean, this is pages and pages of responsibilities, or who does what.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  All of these things are actually really manageable, and I've had couples manage them. Differing religions, different perceptions on how their child should be schooled, different perceptions on how their child should be punished, corporal punishment, discipline. How, I mean, this is normal, common stuff. And the goal is actually to recognize that these are sometimes unsolvable problems. We buy into this myth that we have to solve it to be happy together. And in fact, I think just like realizing that you're marrying a set of problems is freeing for me, because it makes me realize I don't have to keep searching or wondering if there's something better I'm missing. I find it freeing to think it is normal to have these recurring gridlock,

• 28:28Speaker 04

  well, not necessarily gridlock, but perpetual issues. The goal is to prevent them from being gridlocked issues. Gridlocked issues are when we feel that our partner is blocking our life streams because we are not able to talk about it with our partner in a way that is calm or curious. And if we can recognize that these different positions we have are rooted in a dream, usually from childhood or a value system from childhood. And we can share that story with our partner, or even ask, better yet, ask our partner about that story or what it is, without any agenda, without trying to persuade them, realizing that understanding always has to come before persuasion. Sometimes when you lift that veil

• 29:13Speaker 04

  and realize what it's really about for your partner, the actual issue, that conflict, falls away. It doesn't even really need to be solved because it reconnects the two of you in this way where you realize you're on the same team. I'm going to give you an example of that.

• 29:30Speaker 04

  Let's see. Out of all of those, what would you like an example of most?

• 29:34Chris Williamson?

  Um, let's do raising, let's do a child, raising a child schooling, the approach that we should have around how this, this child should be disciplined, rearing, rearing of the kids.

• 29:48Speaker 04

  Okay, I'll pick one of those because each one would be very, each one I would essentially work with a couple doing this set of exercises on. So let's do whether corporal punishment should be used. And in this case, okay, so let's imagine we have a couple. And dad is, the mom is complaining that dad is way too strict, that he gets scary when he's, when the kids have broken rules, that he wants to implement too many rules. And dad thinks mom is way too loosey goosey, woo woo, gentle parenting bullshit.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  And what happens when we're in these stuck positions, right, is we start to come up with these criticisms of our partners. So she's turning them into spoiled little brats. She is totally unscientific woo woo bullshit. They're going to turn into, you know, like, I cannot raise children that are weak or weak willed or don't have character. And she's thinking, my husband is some like bully,

• 31:00Speaker 04

  you know, hyper masculine jerk who is going to starve our children of any emotion. And I don't even like, I can't even believe I'm married this man. He is lacking any sensitivity and my children are scared of him and I have to protect. God forbid, I think maybe I have to step in and protect them. Imagine, like, that's what you're saying is that would just be a terrible thing to have to manage. So now imagine they're sitting there and the husband asks her, is there a fear scenario here for you? And she starts crying and saying like, yeah, I don't ever want my children to be afraid of you. And then he asks, is there a story behind that for you, something from your childhood?

• 31:44Speaker 04

  And she gets really quiet and. When she speaks again, her voice cracks and she says, "My household was so violent and nobody did anything about it. And it was supposed to be normal and I was scared all the time. And I only now have a good relationship with my father." And, and she's crying. "We missed thirty years together and um, he's sick and he has so much regret. And look at me, I have all these problems.

• 32:17Speaker 04

  I just needed to be loved. I felt unsafe my entire childhood. My brother's a drug addict. Um, you know, it's bad. And, you know, he's not trying to persuade her, he's just hearing. And then he thinks, holy shit. Okay, so now she, I'm thinking less she's like a snowflake and more like, "Oh, my God, I've been making my wife. I completely forgot about my wife's upbringing, right? And what might be informing her position?" And then she says the same thing to him.

• 32:48Speaker 04

  She says,

• 32:52Speaker 04

  "You know, is there a particular value system here for you?" Or, and he says, "Well, yeah, I mean, I am Asian. And I, my family immigrated here and I have had to try to be something I'm not forever. And with you, I felt um, that you really saw me and wanted my culture and my world to be a part of our family. And um, what I benefited from growing up was boundaries and discipline. And it has helped me in my career and I learned so much. And I want my children to have opportunities.

• 33:35Speaker 04

  I want them to be successful. I don't want them to worry about money. And I know what my parents went through to bring us here. And I know how hard it was for them to try to build a living, make a living. I want my children to have opportunities. I don't want them to suffer the way my parents did. I want them to have the gifts that my parents sacrificed so much for me to have." And she says, "Holy shit, honey, here I've been just thinking you're this asshole bully."

• 34:05Speaker 04

  And my God, I I missed all of that. And she gets up on her knees on that couch and just like wraps her arms around him. And then those future discussions get very different. Right? So it becomes less about how are we going to discipline? And it doesn't just end there, right? So after that, we bring in some compromise exercises. And the idea is, what are your bones in this situation? What can't you compromise on? And you get that from that prior discussion, right? So I can't compromise on my children having an education so they'll have opportunities. I can't compromise on my children meeting deadlines and getting assignments done. Um, I can't compromise on my children having a work ethic.

• 34:47Speaker 04

  She can't compromise on her children not being afraid. She can't compromise on having a home where um, nice voices are used. Um, and then you can see there, once we have the bones, you can do a lot with that. Okay, so why don't we go in now? Let's set up some ground rules where we communicate in this way about it. We talk about it at this time. We come up with an agreement on how we're going to present something to the kids. And then we go from there. So you actually can manage it.

• 35:23Chris Williamson?

  How much of a circuit breaker are conversations like this? I'm sort of interested in how effectively people can unlearn the way that they typically argue, because you have this, you have a habit. You have a pattern of bad habits of disagreeing poorly with your partner. And it always results in one getting the silent treatment and the other one feeling hard done by you, heavily criticized or whatever it is. And it's almost like putting on an old leather pair of shoes. Well, this is what we do. This is the rhythm of how our disagreements go. So what are some of the ways that you can really try to sort of break that frame of this familiar discomfort when disagreeing?

• 36:08Speaker 04

  Oh, man, it is so hard.

• 36:14Speaker 04

  Two things come to mind. One, I've done this with Ty. So when we first started running into initial problems when we were together, I think in year two, or maybe even year one, I dragged him to my mentor and she did a little bit of a couples workshop with us. And I remember how it felt. Here I am, I am somebody who is doing this to people all day long, and I just wanted to sit and shit. I just did not want us to be helped. When I had to suddenly be vulnerable, or when he, it's hard to break the ice. This specific exercise, I would say is probably a little easier than some of the others. There

• 36:55Speaker 04

  are other conflict management ones where you're trying to repair a former argument that are much more difficult. This one, I would say is a little bit easier because you have one person who is asking the questions and one person who is answering. And so it keeps it pretty structured. It's one of my favorites, I think, for that reason. But I know what it feels like to not want to do it. And to just want to keep the, almost to indulge in the ego and the bad feelings, the shadow, right? And then your partner says something, or just one person says something true and accepts some small piece of responsibility. And it's just

• 37:40Speaker 04

  the ice kind of shatters. The worst is when somebody accepts one small piece of responsibility and the other partner like keeps drilling down on them. That's just, and that happens a lot in couples therapy and you're just like, I handed you the torch. Why did you take this opportunity to destroy this? And we have five minutes left. So that's brutal. I usually will tell couples, I am the ski instructor. I'm not here to be judge and jury. I am not going to tell you what to do or who's right or who's wrong. These principles are classroom skills. And I am here to sort of coach you and using the principles. Or as a ski instructor, if

• 38:20Speaker 04

  you've ever skied before, your ski instructor tells you like one or two little skills. And you go down your little pizza slice and you get to do like two turns and then you have to stop. And the ski instructor comes after you and you meet and you convene. That's what I do in my couples. I don't want them going into the forest. So it's two turns. Alright, so time out. Ask her this question and we start really slow and my own husband and I did that. And what I can say and what I usually tell friends also is that we did that every week for about a month. And then we did it every other week for about two months. And then it was once a month for a while. And then we did a check in maybe once a year, whenever we had a big blowout fight or running into a rough patch.

• 39:06Speaker 04

  And now we kind of know it, but it does work.

• 39:09Chris Williamson?

  So there's a sense, there's, there's a sense there that I think people would assume, well, if you're having to do counseling or therapy or something in the first year of a relationship, that doesn't, that doesn't bode very well. We're in the honeymoon phase. We shouldn't need, we shouldn't need to be going to therapy to try and deal with my three month old relationship.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, maybe three months would be too soon. But what I will say is that I wish everybody had these skills. I think, I mean, do you want to get me started on my little math rant? Because we do five years of high school of higher level math. And only about 5% of our population will ever go into an engineering or other type of job that uses truly high level math, mathematical skill. I think math is incredibly valuable for its analytical skill building. But I'm not sure we need to take that extra year of calculus. I would much, I think our society, our world, given that 96% of the population is going to get married.

• 40:10Speaker 04

  This is one thing we all are going to do rather than a math profession. I would, I'd say, let's trade off that extra year of math and teach people how to actually have a relationship. Because the skills exist. We actually do have the blueprint. We have the research. We have the data. It is a class. It's enough material to fill an entire year of class. And send some kids out there ready to actually do this stuff. But I can't help it. I actually do believe in the science. So after I selected my partner based on science, once we were together, I was like, I mean, he knew this is what I do. And he is freaking wonderful.

• 40:48Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think it is that people get drawn to partners that they want to fix? It's the I can fix her meme.

• 40:54Speaker 04

  You know, I don't know if it's about fixing truly. I think it's about earning love.

• 41:00Speaker 04

  I think it's about earning love. If you had a parent whose love you had to earn in some way, I think that we will find ourselves a partner where we still have to get them to really care about us.

• 41:16Chris Williamson?

  Does this need for approval that reflects a type of need for approval that you once had as a child?

• 41:25Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, definitely. So if you, you know, for instance, if you had a mother who was kind of withholding or critical and you're dating,

• 41:38Speaker 04

  chances are you're going to find a woman who you really have to work hard to make her happy. And or if your mother was an unhappy person in general and you had kind of a caretaker role or, you know, you walked on eggshells to cheer her up and keep her from being critical, then you've got a double whammy. Then you get somebody who becomes this very dutiful caretaker of their partner. You know, accepting shit constantly, taking shit and just hoping that with more hard work, you know, they'll take the little crumbs they can get. I think it's more about that, replicating that feeling of what we understand love to be in that core attachment level when we're kids.

• 42:18Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday. I wonder if a little bit of it is if you have low self-esteem yourself, if that's something that's maybe been bruised in the past and somebody else is treating you in the way that you internally treat yourself, that you're observing in this significant other, a reflection of the way that you see yourself. And that therefore, in the pursuit of trying to win the love and acceptance of the person that you are, you maybe wonder whether or not that would almost fix what it is that you have internally, what it is that you're missing internally. It's sort of a misplaced projection with like aspiration for what you want to achieve.

• 43:00Chris Williamson?

  If I can get them to love me, then perhaps, and there's this sense of familiarity. Yeah, yeah, I'm good enough and I already know that I'm not. So they're telling me the thing that I agree with them. I agree with that. I agree with what they're saying. I agree with this sense of not feeling good enough.

• 43:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. And if somebody just loves me outright, they must be fucking crazy. What would I want to have to do with that person? What a weirdo.

• 43:24Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that push and pull, you know, that dynamic, that very juvenile sort of immature dynamic of I like someone until they like me back is it's it's such a common tension that happens in relationships. And you know, there's a huge meme apparently on TikTok of in a relationship, it needs to be the girl who likes the guy less because that's sort of the only way that he'll remain interested. That basically the power in a relationship lies with the person who cares the least.

• 43:56Speaker 04

  That's terrible. TikTok kills me.

• 43:59Chris Williamson?

  Healthy advice there from TikTok.

• 44:00Speaker 04

  It is rough. That is rough.

• 44:03Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What's the you mentioned before there about sort of a more normal disagreement that you might have with your partner rather than a blow up that you've got in the in the counseling session. What's the gold standard for how to do rupture and repair well, in your opinion?

• 44:19Speaker 04

  Good words. You know,

• 44:22Chris Williamson?

  I did my research.

• 44:23Speaker 04

  I mean, honestly, there's some that when you had I wish I had done more research before this call. There are some that, look, a lot of times, if your relationship is really solid, you can let stuff go. I can attest to that personally. Ty and I have been together 10 years now. We've done this work. And so there are little things. We now know each other so well. We know each other's vulnerabilities where I know because we've done all sort of the friendship levels, we know each other's world, we care about one another, we're fond of one another, we do nice things for each other. If he does something weird or a little bit, you know, insensitive or says something kind of rude at dinner, which nobody else, by the way, would perceive as rude. I know that this is just our own little subtle dynamic.

• 45:08Speaker 04

  I'm gonna let it go because we're awesome. And for the most part, it's not a big deal. And that's why those basic why friendship is so important and loving someone is so important, not not loving them. You want to have that fondness and admiration shared between partners. In terms of, you know, let's say, he made a second quip at the dinner. I would probably not bring it up then because also I don't want to hurt him because I like him and I care about him. So I'm not going to embarrass him. I might give him a squeeze under the table. Just, you know, it's like a hierarchy. You don't initially need to bring out the big guns, but I might give him a squeeze and just be like, And he'll know what that means.

• 45:53Speaker 04

  Back in the day before he knew me as well, I might have brought it up when we got home and not made a huge like, we need to talk, but just, hey babe, I just want you to know, like, I was a little bit embarrassed when you, it's felt like you were contradicting me on that story about, I don't know, relationship counseling, whatever it was. And it just, it made me feel a little bit diminished in front of our friends. And I know that wasn't your intention, but to just be a little bit more aware when I'm talking about something that I'm really passionate about. And I can even offer a little bit

• 46:35Speaker 04

  of background, which you start to learn about yourself when you do this kind of talking with your partner. And I was like, if I actually think about it, it reminds me of how my family never really cared about anything I had to say, or anything I was doing, or a competition wasn't real if it was something I was doing. So when you kind of were contradicting me, it just brought up a big yucky feeling. And I know, again, that wasn't at your intention, but it's something I'm sensitive to.

• 47:02Chris Williamson?

  It seems like the most important thing here is that it's on a foundation of very, very deep trust, that both of you know that you have the other's best interests at heart. You both appear as a team. It's us against the world together. Therefore.

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Exactly. I love that part, by the way.

• 47:19Chris Williamson?

  It's the difference between you calling the opposing team member a bad name because you want him to miss a penalty, or you calling your, your own team member a bad name because you think, dude, you could have done better. And like, let's do better next time, or whatever, like the more encouraging equivalent.

• 47:38Speaker 04

  And that's why in this couples therapy, you actually, you don't go to conflict management until you've already started to build up the friendship levels, unless you need to repair a betrayal. And at that point.

• 47:50Chris Williamson?

  You mentioned, you mentioned this a couple of times, the friendship levels. What is, what is that?

• 47:53Speaker 04

  Thank you. Thank you for bringing me back to that. So. All of this research that I'm talking about, besides Taito Shiro, is really largely, it was done by John and Julie Gottman, two relationship psychologists who have been at this game longer than anybody else, and they have now 50 years of research, longitudinal studies, the largest sample base of any, I actually find it to be, in my mind, and this may be something that's arguable, but I haven't found anything like it, the most researched psychological therapy method we have. They developed a method of therapy that is very structured based on their research. It happens to be for couples,

• 48:36Speaker 04

  but I think it's the most researched therapy we have to date. So 50 years of longitudinal data on couples, and what they found were that these couples who were the most satisfied, Taito Shiro's research looked at personality traits, the Gottmans looked at personality traits, but more than that, these interaction styles. They would have couples go in this room they called the Love Lab. So it was up in Washington, and they had, you know, double mirrors, they had cameras, they had pulse oximeters, they were doing blood tests, they were checking cortisol levels, they had inner raiders, you know, trying to quantify little movements they were seeing, or statements or interactions. What they eventually came

• 49:20Speaker 04

  up with and codified, they started noticing that the couples who were the most satisfied, long-term, when they kept revisiting them, and these are also couples who didn't divorce, were doing these things, and they had really strong friendships. They said nice things to one another, they anticipated things that were coming up in their partner's life, they would talk about their partner's stresses, they would check in at the end of the day, these were the ones who stayed married and were the happiest over the years. And so, with all of the information they got, including when they saw couples argue, how they managed conflict, etc., they started to develop this model that they call the Sound Relationship House.

• 50:04Speaker 04

  And the Sound Relationship House has a foundation. We call them the friendship levels. And that starts with love maps, which is knowing your partner's world. Who's their current least favorite person? Who is their current best friend? What are they excited about that's coming up? What are they dreading? My favorite is what is your partner's as of yet unrealized? But most preciously held life dream? If you know that, your partner might not even know that. But if you know that, A, that's super conscientious. But also you got love maps down. Then you've got fondness and admiration. So this is really thinking, putting on those rose colored glasses. We actually need them. So we need them not only in our relationships.

• 50:49Speaker 04

  We need them for our own mental health. People who are depressed actually have a pretty accurate appraisal of things. But it's not healthy for us. We need a little bit of a cheery outlook. So are you, there's a phrase called like, it's something about the story of the relationship. Do are they really, are they romanticizing the conflict and the struggles they've had? Are they seeing them as meaningful and purpose driven? So you want to see that us against the world. And then there's the other friendship level of turning toward your partner. So when your partner makes a bid for connection, if they say, hey, look at this meme, even if you think it's dumb, are you going to look up from your computer,

• 51:32Speaker 04

  recognizing that it's not just my partner wants attention? They love you so much that when you're on your computer doing your email, they are making a bid for a reconnection. If you think of it like that, that's so awesome. And so you look up and you look at the dumb meme, but you think of how lucky you are to have somebody who loves you that much. And you laugh at the dumb meme. So turning toward your partner. And then on bigger levels, it's turning toward your partner when they're bummed, when they have a conflict they need to discuss with you. With all of that, you get that positive perspective. So the friendship levels give you the positive perspective. That friendship, you guys are on the same team. You're going to cheer each other on so that you can deal with the foul play

• 52:17Speaker 04

  or whatever else it is in a way that's constructive and doesn't just shit on the person.

• 52:23Chris Williamson?

  What else was predictive of longevity from the Gottman research?

• 52:28Speaker 04

  Oh, so many things. Um, well, let me keep going up the sound relationship house. So when you get into managing conflict, you really want to avoid the four horsemen. And the four horsemen were actually the most predictive of a divorce. This, people get stuck on this, especially on TikTok as a forum, by the way. I, I've never had so many people get stuck on this five year divorce type thing where, so if they do all of these things, but they don't get a divorce in five years, they're okay? No, no, no. I mean, they might stay together, but the idea, it just says it's more predictive of a divorce because they're so unhappy. If they stay together, they're still going to be unhappy. Um, so let's just clear that up.

• 53:11Speaker 04

  And those are one criticism. So just putting your partner down, right? So if I got, you know, felt undermined at the dinner, I would have been like, God, you're such a story topper. You need so much attention. You can't just, that kind of thing, instead of like, babe, I'm sensitive to this. Number two, contempt. Contempt is criticism on steroids. It is the worst thing for a relationship. That's where you're doing that power dynamic I kind of talked about. So it would be really putting somebody down, the eye rolling when they talk, um, name calling, diminishing them, going global with you're such a selfish person. Um, you're slov, like you're slovenly. Did you do anything today? Do you ever do anything?

• 53:56Speaker 04

  Those kinds of things are really contemptuous and they erode not only at the relationship, but at the person's self-esteem. Um, defensiveness. So that's that hard one where when you're really in it and you're forgetting that person is on your team. Can you take some small piece of responsibility or validate some small piece of what they're saying? Just to get you through that barrier. It makes all the difference. And then stonewalling, and this is something that we do when our heart rate gets too high. We get physiologically flooded, our frontal lobe kind of shuts down. And it's actually usually I'm stonewalling when I don't want to validate my partner. I'm just, I'm done.

• 54:41Speaker 04

  And that can also be a trauma response if you just, you know, if you grew up in an abusive household or a household where you had very little power and control over chaos, you often learn to just like when it got too bad, you just go inward because there's nothing you can do about it. And, uh, but you can imagine that if you keep stonewalling your partner and you shut down and you don't engage with them, it makes them feel very lonely. It's the opposite of connected. So all of those four things you do not want to do when you're managing conflict. If you don't do those and you do the antithesis, so I kind of mentioned like accepting a small piece of responsibility, calming yourself

• 55:23Speaker 04

  down physically if you notice you're stonewalling, using these sort of reflective listening techniques, they're a little bit more than that because you go a little deeper in asking your partner questions, but suspending your own agenda, your own position and learning about why they feel something. If you do all of those things, now you're through the conflict management. If you've done that and you've got the friendship stuff going, now we get into like making each other's life's dreams come true. And this is where it's, um, you know, you're building rituals of connection, you're finding out what you guys stand for as a couple, shared meaning. What are, what are, what do we stand for?

• 56:05Speaker 04

  What does our family stand for? This little couple family we have, like who are we? And that's where you get those couples that just are so special.

• 56:16Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's one plus one equals three, right? That's sort of a positive sum game where you together become more than you could have ever been apart type thing.

• 56:25Speaker 04

  A hundred percent. And you know what? That's why I'm really obsessed with the Gottman research and this therapy method. I mean, it is one of the most elegant I've ever seen. It is so structured and skills-based. Um, I think I really needed to know there was a blueprint, there was a way to do this. And what I love about doing this therapy with people is I can do it with service members with severe PTSD and their partner. And it's healing both of them individually and as a couple because we are such social beings. We are incredibly social creatures. So you can have profound individual healing and growth through the relationship. In fact, I think our relationships are our greatest teacher.

• 57:08Chris Williamson?

  You mentioned how much time we spend learning maths of whichever useless subject that we can't remember anyway from when we were in school and how little time gets spent learning about relationships. But you know, maybe you could lay that defeat of a ineffectually designed education system. But you're an adult now and you haven't decided to go. How many, how many times did you go to pickleball lessons? You remember when you did 15 weeks of pickleball lessons and you went twice a week and you did that class? Do you remember when you did that? And what are you doing with your pickleball now? You still suck. Whereas your relationship, this thing that you know is the single most important decision

• 57:51Chris Williamson?

  that you're going to make in your entire life. What have you done with that? Oh, you what you, you like watched a couple of TikToks. You made a couple of scientifically unsound conclusions from a few TikToks. So yeah, I just, you know, I do think that this is changing a little bit. The world of personal development, personal growth, sort of self-development-y stuff seems to me to be crossing over into how can I use my relationship as a vehicle to make me, my partner, our union and our lives better altogether as one big thing.

• 58:26Chris Williamson?

  Correct. That's a perfect way of putting it. Yeah, it's super, super efficient. And I guess on the other side of this, the personal growth that you get from a how can I alchemize maybe a bad relationship way. Bad relationships will teach you more about yourself than probably pretty much any other situation in your life. So it is a, I get, I get, I really do understand why people are sort of checking out of dating. I don't agree with it, but I understand emotionally the motivation for them to do it. This protection, I've been hurt before. This is painful. I don't understand so on and so forth. But with a tiny little bit of a frame change, it just seems to

• 59:07Chris Williamson?

  me like there's, you have the opportunity for the consistently having, yeah, exactly. The greatest growth periods in your entire life to come off the back of this and then you become better for the next one. Right. So yeah, I, it's, it's an interesting, it does feel like rolling the dice, you know, it feels, it feels like risk and people are very risk averse in the modern world. So I kind of get it.

• 59:31Speaker 04

  We are, and yet we're so drawn to relationships. We can't help it.

• 59:36Chris Williamson?

  That's a, this is an interesting one. I'm going to try and combine a couple of different areas of the stuff that you do. So you assess lingering emotional stress, psychological pain, stuff like that. How can people expedite relinquishing themselves of that lingering emotional stress and psychological pain? But from a relationship standpoint, so they've been in a relationship previously and they've developed coping patterns, expectations of themselves, behaviors, habits. And they really, not only did they not want to see the world in that way, they don't want to bring that into the next relationship. So what are some of the ways that people can detox from previous relationship patterns that they want to get rid of?

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

  Honestly, it's why I dragged Portai into my mentor's office when we were dating and we started having problems. And I realized I was just, we were both stuck in stuff. We both had stuff. And I knew that we just needed support. So I did that. And I hate that that's really my answer. I hate that that's my answer because it's a paid service. I think it's a valuable service, but it's not something health insurance covers. So that's a whole nother view.

• 1:00:52Chris Williamson?

  Your answer is counseling?

• 1:00:53Speaker 04

  Well, not just counseling, actually, because I know a lot of people who go see a therapist for couples therapy. And what few people understand is that couples therapy is minimally taught, even in doctoral programs. We learn a lot about individual therapy methods. We learn a lot about testing and assessment. We learn a lot about family therapy, child therapy, adult therapy, group therapy. We might, you know, brush over some of the Gottman's research in a class, but you're not getting the real skills to do structured evidence-based couples therapy. And, and perhaps part of that is because it's not considered a healthcare service. Whereas the traditional psychotherapy model is considered a treatment of a diagnosable illness.

• 1:01:38Speaker 04

  The problem is, though, that again, 96% of us are in marriages. And if you look at Tai Chi Shiro's research, the majority of those marriages are unhappy or going to end.

• 1:01:49Chris Williamson?

  What should people do if, in your opinion, this is not medical advice? How, where would you direct people for the best evidence-based category of?

• 1:01:59Speaker 04

  I truly believe you do the Gottman method of couples therapy.

• 1:02:03Chris Williamson?

  So you're looking for a Gottman licensed couples therapist?

• 1:02:07Speaker 04

  A therapist who is trained in the Gottman method. I strongly support level three training, although I know some excellent Gottman method therapists who are level two trained. Level one is a great introduction, but really, I just think the reason that I am so adamant about this is because doing couples therapy using individual therapy methods is actually a recipe for harming the relationship. So this is one of those areas where a therapist who is winging it and just sort of doing therapy with this couple can actually hurt that relationship pretty quickly.

• 1:02:47Chris Williamson?

  You mean two people separately going to psychotherapy, doing the normal talk therapy thing?

• 1:02:51Speaker 04

  No, so if you have a couples, a therapist who isn't trained in the Gottman method, trying to do therapy with a couple and calling it couples therapy, and that's most therapy that couples go to. They go to couples therapy and I always am, I try to sort of suspend my, was a therapist trained in the Gottman method because sometimes I feel like I am like a walking advertisement. And by the way, everyone, I am trained in this method, but I have no paid affiliation with them whatsoever. I just, this is the most evidence-based method we have in general, and it happens to be for couples.

• 1:03:29Speaker 04

  We also know that because of these findings, that if you just unload all of your criticism onto your partner, because you're doing a traditional therapy approach that is meant for individual therapy, where it's sort of open, talking, reflective, listening. If you're unloading your criticism and your contempt and all of your anger is flowing, and we're using this sort of like let it out approach, those are all things, these are the four horsemen. So you're going to get defensiveness and you're going to get stonewalling and you're going to burn more of that bridge rather than rebuild the connection. It's actually harmful. So I think it can be a waste of time and money. And I think it can actually

• 1:04:11Speaker 04

  harm the relationship more than it helps, which is why I just, if you are going to somebody who is trained and strictly utilizes the evidence-based Gottman method, you're going to have a greater likelihood of actually improving the relationship. So I'm pretty adamant about that. Where I would send people is to the Gottman Institute online. It's a website. So from there, you can find individual, or you can find couples therapists for private therapy, if that's something you want. They have the Gottman Referral Network. Some Gottman providers, though, are not on there. So I'm not on there. They're excellent people. You can find word of mouth as well. But Gottman Referral Network is a good place to start.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  If you aren't able to find somebody who is covered by your insurance and budget is a major concern, which it is for most people, the Gottman Institute has created some really awesome software programming. And this really started during the COVID era and it's gotten better ever since. So they have affordable apps that you can use. They have videos of their trainings that you can utilize and then structured guidelines for practicing on your own. There is something amazing about having a ski instructor, though, right? To help you down that mountain. But these skills are out there. So you can learn them and it does take a little bit more commitment because you don't get to just sit and shit

• 1:05:38Speaker 04

  like I did in that room where my mentor, who is wonderful and loving and wise, had to coax me out of being a brat so that I could participate fully. So you have to be a little bit more of a grown up, but I think it can be done.

• 1:05:53Chris Williamson?

  I love it. Um, I guess final thing, something we haven't spoken about is breakups. And is there anything to say from an evidence-based perspective on what getting over a breakup looks like? Is that, is that even an area of research?

• 1:06:09Speaker 04

  It is, and it's pretty fascinating. Oh, I should have brushed up on this one. This one has a lot to do with neuroscience. In fact, I bet Huberman could tell you a lot on it. And actually, I would listen to that in a heartbeat. But

• 1:06:25Speaker 04

  What we do know is that people actually have a drug withdrawal like response to a breakup. So you are, you were getting this oxytocin from the love relationship and also from the familiarity. There are a couple of different reasons for this. When you're in a relationship, you have these patterns of things you do with your partner. And if you were very close and together for a long time, there's A, the stress of disentangling your lives. And if you have to move, that's one of the most stressful life events there is, is a relocation. So you're dealing with that. Then you also had, you know, breakfast together on Sundays or TV day on Saturdays when you're both wiped or hungover.

• 1:07:05Speaker 04

  Or, uh, you know, you'd go to your parents on Sunday afternoon or you, whatever those little rituals were, you had them and they were built in. Now you're going to have these empty pockets of time that aren't filled with these familiar comforts. So that's disrupting as it is and stressful. But on top of that, you're not getting the physical touch and intimacy. You're not getting the romantic love if you're in the early stages of the relationship. And so you're actually having this withdrawal syndrome and it's going to feel a lot like drug addiction. There are a couple of different things you can do, recognize that. When you are addicted to drugs, when you're going through withdrawal, you start to, your body wants more of that drug.

• 1:07:50Speaker 04

  It wants that hit of oxytocin. And so you're going to start fantasizing and thinking wholly about that thing you want. And that means you're going to idealize the relationship, you're going to idealize your ex. And it's just the way you would start to obsess about that drug. So what do we have addicts do when we know that they're going to start idealize the drug? They're going to start having cravings. We have them remember, they counter that thought with a thought about what they have to lose. And we might counter it also with a memory of rock bottom. And so you have to A, recognize that these are fantasies, they are not realistic. These are idealizations of something that isn't true.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  And so you take those rose colored glasses off, the ones that we want you to have on the whole relationship. You take them off and you remember what it was like, um, the time he left you in the parking lot. And you didn't have a way to get home. Or, uh, I don't know. You, you think of the worst times. And then you also need to find positive activities to fill those empty pockets. So whereas somebody was using in the past, now they have to, you know, call their sponsor or they go do something enjoyable like workout. Do the same thing when you used to do brunch with your partner or, um, whatever else it was that is making you miss them suddenly. So call a friend, go to brunch with a friend.

• 1:09:20Speaker 04

  I, I have this weird thing where I love deep magazines. It, to me, it's like, doesn't harm you because it's not junk food and it's kind of a quick fix and I can look at fashion and stuff. And as long as I don't shop, I love that as like a quick hit of oxytocin. Uh, just gives me a little thrill. Everybody's got one of those weird little things. So you plan ahead. You got your magazines ready, whatever it is, and you start filling those empty spaces. And then third, you also need to recognize that as you get more tired in the day, your executive functioning decreases. So that same frontal lobe that you need to manage an argument effectively with your partner, you also need that to exercise any good judgment and to remind yourself of why you broke up with a person.

• 1:10:06Speaker 04

  That's why you might notice like you pine a little bit more for your ex at night or you, uh, call them at night or you just get, you know, nighttime is never great. As soon as you start to get tired and your frontal lobe goes down, you're just going to be a little bit less reserved, a little bit less controlled, a little bit less aware of all the good reasons you made this smart decision. So go to bed.

• 1:10:32Chris Williamson?

  Right, that's the answer to a lot of problems. Just go to bed, yeah, and put your phone away. Now, that, that, it's very interesting. I actually asked Huberman this question about, probably about three years ago. And, um, he started talking about the neuroscience of grief. So he said that the way that it works with grief is there is a, an area of our brain which is expecting our ability to connect with that person and that has been taken away.

• 1:10:57Speaker 04

  Don't mind me.

• 1:11:00Chris Williamson?

  I can send you the, I can send you the link to the.

• 1:11:03Speaker 04

  That would actually be much more. I just had this urge to start taking note. Okay.

• 1:11:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the professional, the professional nerd in the room as opposed to the unprofessional nerd. Yeah, basically that it's, it's like grief, right? That you've lost somebody that they're dead, but the, the unique pain that you get from a breakup is that the person is still accessible. Maybe they don't care about you anymore than with somebody new that they moved on with. Maybe they, maybe you left them and you've got this sense of guilt and there is still going to be this sense of missing.

• 1:11:34Speaker 04

  Existential messiness of it all.

• 1:11:36Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, like imagine, imagine a type of death where somebody dies, but you can get them back briefly, but you have to pay a very high price in order to do it. And you can do that over and over and over and over again. So he, it's his opinion, I think that from a sort of neurobiology perspective, you're looking at the same pathways that you get in grief. And.

• 1:11:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, definitely. And that is a known thing. Although it's fascinating to hear his neurological perspective. So from my framework, the psychological framework, we just talk about how difficult and complex this emotion is, this loss is, it's a, it's complex sort of bereavement. Because it's not simple. It's not just an, a loss of a person. They still exist. There are complex feelings of jealousy or diminishment or guilt, as you said. If you were the one who ended it, it is nonetheless a loss and a lot to learn and navigate with that. I am reminded of Elizabeth Gilbert's book Eat, Pray, Love, the book.

• 1:12:40Speaker 04

  And I don't know if any of your listeners will be familiar with it, especially if it's a primarily male audience. But there is this incredible part in the end. She actually went, so in this book, she's navigating a really brutal divorce from somebody who she loves very much, but they grew apart, they had gotten married young. And her life, as she says, is, you know, it's unimaginable to even imagine staying together, yet unimaginable to imagine splitting up. They do split up and. At some point in this, she goes to an ashram in India and she devotes herself to spiritual

• 1:13:21Speaker 04

  practice, brutal spiritual practice, like meditation on her knees for eight hours of meditating and imagining somebody she wishes well to and health to. And then at one point, she realizes she still has this cloying pain, this wound from the loss of her marriage, which she nonetheless initiated, but this absolute grief deep in her soul. And anybody, I think, who has been divorced or has gone through one of these major losses of love can attest to this. It can feel like a cancer in you that just lingers. And she is, a friend

• 1:14:06Speaker 04

  of hers recommends that she goes up to the roof of the, well, he recommends that she meditate and essentially talk to him in that state. And at risk of sounding a little too woo woo, what I will say is that she has this profound peak experience in a meditative state and feels that she's able to, that separation is not so finite as we perceive and that she was able to connect to him mentally, whether it was psychological, spiritual. And there was a wisdom there that she was also able to connect with where she realized

• 1:14:46Speaker 04

  that none of this was bad and that on a much larger level, it was all okay. And so she kind of cartwheels off, very relieved and happy. That secretly, not so secret anymore, is a passage that I'll give to some of my clients who are navigating devastating, devastating heartache where the contact has been cut and it just feels so painful and empty and it provides, I think, a little bit of an avenue for reconnection.

• 1:15:19Speaker 04

  Or healing.

• 1:15:20Chris Williamson?

  Isn't it funny, we're just, you know, shaven primates trying to make sure that the next generation comes along. And all of this stuff comes for the ride. You just have these complex psychological mechanisms and you know, but what about your childhood? What about the inner voice and where that's come from? And go to think about, you know, the foundation of the house needs to be friendship first, and then you're going to do the thing. It's like, hey, dude, I'm a fucking grandchild optimizing machine that has become self-aware. Like, I'm like, I'm like ChatGPT nine or something. And I, did we ask for this? I don't feel like I asked for this. And it's, but this is why it's interesting. It's interesting because you know, the idea of spandrels, you must know the idea of spandrels.

• 1:16:06Chris Williamson?

  Oh, okay. So, um, it's, I don't know whether the word actually exists outside of psychology, but it exists. The best example is you're an alien that comes down to earth and you look at a light bulb. And some used to say, what's the job of an old school style lightbulb? One from 50 years ago. And they'd say, what's the job of that lightbulb? And you say, it's obvious, the job of the lightbulb is to give off heat. Look at how much heat it's giving off. And you go, interesting, interesting comment. No, job of the lightbulb is to give off light. That heat is a byproduct. So he didn't mean to give off the heat, but in order to give off the light, we gave off the heat. And it's kind of, kind of like the entirety of everything that we're dealing with here.

• 1:16:43Speaker 04

  Our entire toiling.

• 1:16:45Chris Williamson?

  Fucking spandrels. They're all just spandrels, like that we've had to try and find ways to compensate and work around, you know, a very ungainly god, when it came to him designing the sort of way that men and women interrelate. I mean, it was, he's tired. It's sort of, it's late on a Saturday afternoon. He's had an edible. And, you know, you're thinking, are you really, this bit, you know, there was some slickness. Look at the beauty of a swordfish swimming through the sea and like, you know, the, the sort of majesty of the nice guy and there's this simplicity and all the rest of it.

• 1:17:15Speaker 04

  I do the same thing. I compare a cool animal to us. And I was like, man, God had way more fun with this one. Like, maybe this was in the beginning of the project. Where he, you know, was a little more grandiose about it and excited and spending more time and detail on something, having fun with it. And then to the end-

• 1:17:32Chris Williamson?

  And he really had to rush it toward the end. He was like, I've got so many Slack, I've got so many Slack notifications. Yeah, my fucking Trello board is a nightmare. And that honestly, that second edible is looking really good. So I'm just going to send this and hope for the best. The code that you wrote this with is a little bit messy. It's like, yeah, it'll be fine. So, no, I am, look, Dr. Shannon Currie, ladies and gentlemen, I really appreciate you. It's fascinating to look at the world of relationships through an evidence-based lens is, is really, really unique. So why should people go? They want to keep up to date with everything you do.

• 1:18:09Speaker 04

  You can check out my website, curryspsychology.com or Instagram. I'm working on getting more content up there lately. So it's Currie Psych Group.

• 1:18:20Chris Williamson?

  Heck yeah. Dr. Currie, I appreciate you. I'll see you next time.

• 1:18:23Speaker 04

  All right. Thanks so much, Chris.

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