Testosterone, Bodybuilding & Confidence - More Plates More Dates

Derek is a YouTuber, founder of Gorilla Mind and a fitness expert. The Liver King has seen one of the fastest rises to internet fame ever. Documenting his ancestral lifestyle generated millions of followers and hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue for his businesses, but it turns out that the physique he displayed in his content was built on massive amounts of performance enhancing drugs, despite him denying it on many occasions. Expect to learn what Derek thinks of the Liver King's apology video, just how extreme the number of drugs he was talking were, whether there is more information still to come out, the risks for anyone of taking TRT, Derek's thoughts on NoFap, how to develop confidence when approaching someone you like and much more... Sponsors: Get 10% discount on all Gymshark’s products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code: MW10) Get $100 off plus an extra 15% discount on Qualia Mind at https://neurohacker.com/modernwisdom (use code MW15) Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and Free Shipping from Athletic Greens at https://athleticgreens.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Extra Stuff: Subscribe to Derek's YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@MorePlatesMoreDates Follow Derek on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/moreplatesmoredates/ Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #liverking #derek #moreplatesmoredates - 00:00 Intro 01:11 How the Public Reacted to the Documentary 10:47 What Information did Derek Hold Back? 15:42 Thoughts on the Apology Video 19:55 What Drugs was Liver King on? 30:32 The Future for Liver King 39:31 Health Risks of Taking TRT 48:45 Should We Be Worried About Men’s Testosterone Levels? 1:02:46 Derek’s Opinion of Andrew Huberman 1:13:15 What Chris Learned from an E-Sports Coach 1:17:28 Health Impacts of Modern Bodybuilding 1:24:45 Derek’s Opinion on NoFap 1:29:26 Risks of Going Too Long without Ejaculating 1:34:34 How To Gain Confidence Around Girls 1:42:55 Where to Find Derek - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There will be a subset of people who very much feel that it was a necessary evil potentially to get the message out. Sometimes when I think about the whole picture, it's just mind blowing. This is even a thing. Seems like a, like a movie almost. It's just absurd.

• 0:16Chris Williamson?

  Derek, welcome to the show.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me, dude.

• 0:19Chris Williamson?

  You broke the internet this week, man. What the fuck?

• 0:22Speaker 00

  No, wild. Yeah, absolutely wild.

• 0:24Chris Williamson?

  Has there ever been this much attention on you, do you think?

• 0:27Speaker 00

  Um, I don't know, to be honest. Um, I, I feel like the thing is so much bigger than me at this point that I don't even know if it's necessarily attention on me or just the situation at large.

• 0:39Chris Williamson?

  That's a really, really good point.

• 0:40Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it's, it's tough to say, but probably not. Maybe when I went on Rogan last year, I think it got a decent amount of attention, but I don't know.

• 0:48Chris Williamson?

  How long have you been working on this?

• 0:51Speaker 00

  Um, as far as like the actual editing and putting together, you know, the script and whatnot, um, I think in totality it was like a month, probably. Yeah.

• 1:01Chris Williamson?

  That's a big project.

• 1:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03Chris Williamson?

  Fuck.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  Especially for a guy who usually just films off the cuff and just talks, you know, whatever comes to mind kind of thing.

• 1:09Chris Williamson?

  Yes. So you've put this hour-long documentary out that is talking about emails that you've received, explaining what the Liver King was taking in terms of his steroid cycle, in terms of some bits of blood work and health markers and all the rest of it that you've done from that. Obviously you've been with this content for a long time. And then you release it into the world. You know how you reacted to it. And then you're going to make predictions about how the public's going to react. What are your thoughts on the reaction to this information so far?

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Um, I think it has been pretty, it went more viral than I was expecting, but the overall response I feel was pretty aligned with what I was expecting in terms of there was going to be a subset of people who no matter what happens, they were still, you know, hardcore supporters of the guy regardless. And certain individuals who kind of knew what was going to happen at some point anyways, and had a feeling that this kind of information was going to come out and like very much me as well, like even before this stuff came to light, I was like, somebody fucking has this for sure. Like, he's definitely put this out there in some context to somebody and like as he gets, I don't know, gains more notoriety, like somebody is going to feel, I don't know,

• 2:26Speaker 00

  obliged to put out the truth, I would imagine. So, I don't know, it just felt like a matter of time. And I think the, the general response was fairly expected, just far more viral than I ever anticipated.

• 2:38Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's riding off the back of his virality, right? You know, he's been one of the biggest guests on pretty much every big podcast over the last year or so, the Logan Pauls, the H3H3s, etc. He's been everywhere. And on that vehemently denied, like absolutely denied. What is it that he says PEDs are? Prioritize, execute, and determinism or something?

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Dominate?

• 2:59Chris Williamson?

  Dom- some, anyway, just outright stone wall, I haven't taken, I don't need these, you can achieve this body if you follow these nine ancestral tenants. And I think that there's some sense of like vindication that people have when hypocrisy gets called out like that. And I think that's one of the big reasons. You've got all of this, all of these waves of exposure, and then think there's undeniable proof.

• 3:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, hopefully it doesn't lead to a skewing. The thing I worry about is there are individuals who are genetic anomalies who do work their asses off and are actually natural. And typically, when something like this, like, it's not like this is an everyday thing, but when something like this happens, it very much frames the, I would imagine, the layman perspective to assume that any good physique might then equate to hormone use. And then, oh, you know, the limitations on what they think is possible, the bar drops a little bit, which I'm sure that is partially what fueled his like mentality to justify this whole thing is he would, like, obviously, he has his own, you know, monetary incentive

• 4:11Speaker 00

  and upside on that and whatnot. But also, from, one of the points he would always make is,

• 4:18Speaker 00

  Self limiting beliefs and you know, you're putting yourself in a box and this and that like there are individuals who could otherwise do great things without having to take drugs. It's not something that you need to do to have a great physique that's um, you know, going to be seen as a top tier representation of health and fitness. So hopefully that message doesn't get lost in this whole debacle.

• 4:41Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that everybody assumes the only way that you could get into remotely good shape would be to take PEDs because this guy did.

• 4:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I think that's like one of the downsides of the natty or not discussion can kind of skew into that like obviously having realistic expectations is great, but at the same time, you don't want to put yourself in a, I don't know, like in a box where you think that every single good physique out there or anything that is representative of elites. I don't know, the physical representation of, you know, elite tier body composition is, oh, definitely drugs, I might as well not even try.

• 5:17Chris Williamson?

  There's two things going on with natty or not, I think on one side it is um, trying not to dissuade people who think the only way I can achieve a good physique is to use PEDs. But on the other side is bringing down the expectations of people who think I should be able to look like that without PEDs. Like this is the uh, like forever balance that I think is being struck with like your content or Greg's content or whoever else.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  I think the good thing that was guys like uh, Greg O'Gallagher, Matt Does Fitness, who come out and show like this is what I do without PEDs.

• 5:50Chris Williamson?

  And I look like a fucking tank.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  And are, and are willing to actually go out there and prove that they're natural too with like stringent testing.

• 5:57Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  And like if they want to be a role model for natural fitness, like I think those guys represent the, you know, upper echelon of what could otherwise be achievable if you had great genetics, but also worked your ass off, ate clean, etc. And yeah, hopefully that message doesn't get lost.

• 6:15Chris Williamson?

  The most midwit take that I've seen this week is Liver King's on steroids. Like, oh, my God, who could have predicted? Like, everybody knew this. I knew this. This isn't shocking information. It's like, that is not a smart opinion. Like, that's and that's the most common critical message that I've seen online. Like, dude, it's not about the fact that he had a very unnatural physique, and it's now being confirmed as being unnatural. It was about how blatant and flagrant his lies were. Like, that's what people are shocked by. Like, if this guy is able to so naturally, point blank, with ease on the biggest platforms in the world, say,

• 6:59Chris Williamson?

  I've never touched steroids, and he's self-assured in his lies. Like, what else has he lied about? What else is this sort of a person capable of? It's like the liar king. Like, that's that's the position that I think needs to be taken.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  No, it's wild how he'll just, you know, look people in the eye and just fucking flat out have his script ready to go and say the exact same thing every single time at what he deems to be the. I don't like the risk on that, too. Like, I just don't understand the the perception of the ROI when you know the information's out there, too.

• 7:32Chris Williamson?

  Like, this smoking gun was there, even if nobody else knew about it, he did.

• 7:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, and like, obviously, even internally among his team, they knew about it, and they had put out information.

• 7:42Chris Williamson?

  You think his team knew about it?

• 7:44Speaker 00

  They messaged me.

• 7:46Chris Williamson?

  Oh, on his behalf, asking for you to sort. Oh, so it wasn't him that emailed you?

• 7:51Speaker 00

  He emailed me, but also one of his team members emailed me, too, and was like, literally, subject line, video content idea, or something of that nature. Hey, this would be a great YouTube video. Brian Johnson has this issue with, you know, IGF1. He's taking four times the dose of HGH with no success. I think it would make for great content for you to, like, figure this out. You know, that kind of thing was.

• 8:13Chris Williamson?

  Hang on, is this the email that you missed?

• 8:15Speaker 00

  No. Oh, I missed both those emails.

• 8:18Chris Williamson?

  How the fuck did you miss those emails?

• 8:20Speaker 00

  Cause I have a separate subsection for contact form requests.

• 8:25Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  And on my blog, I don't really look at it like I used to, cause I don't write anymore. I don't, I don't think I've written an article in like two or three years. And they just pile up, dude. So, and it's like, I can imagine you can relate to me in that. Once you have seven inboxes and they fill up every single day, eventually shit goes by the wayside and you will just never, you'll never see the light of day.

• 8:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  Some stuff even goes into the spam filter that might otherwise not have made it into the priority inbox. Like there's.

• 8:55Chris Williamson?

  How much did you kick yourself when you realized that you had this?

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Dude, when I saw it, my, it was like a movie moment, I swear.

• 9:02Chris Williamson?

  Cause you searched for an email about this topic whilst making the video.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:08Chris Williamson?

  And that email that you'd never seen before just appeared.

• 9:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. So basically I was looking for the email that was forwarded to me that had blood work, breakdown, like the, the questionnaire thing where he broke down, you know, his daily routine, et cetera, his cycle, et cetera. And then as I was doing that, underneath there was unread messages from anything that had that word in it of at ancestral supplements.com. Very few things in my inbox that actually have that. And it was unread from May 2021. I was just like, whoa, this is old. What the fuck is this? And the sender, I'm just, I'm, I was just like, what? So I opened it and I see who it is. Like there's no fucking way. And then I see this other email too. I was like, wow, I can't believe this has been sitting here this entire time.

• 9:55Speaker 00

  Like my impression was, and I thought this was what he was going to do. And I was sort of watching to see if this was what he was gonna do is go on all the biggest podcasts. And then at the end culminate it with a. You know what, guys? This is the actual truth. And I thought that it would help push the message harder, but this is the truth, and I hope you guys can accept that.

• 10:14Chris Williamson?

  Do this ahead of your video?

• 10:16Speaker 00

  Maybe, yeah.

• 10:17Chris Williamson?

  So he was gonna do all of these podcasts?

• 10:19Speaker 00

  I thought that was maybe a scenario that might happen, where he was trying to like, collect the infinity stones of podcasts essentially, and then end it with Rogan, and like, have the gauntlet, and be like, "Yep, I'm fake Natty." And I hope you guys can accept that, and then hopefully the steam he's built up to there, the net outcome would still be so significant that the people that stuck by him would be...

• 10:39Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 10:40Speaker 00

  I thought that was a potential possibility, but then it just never seemed to happen. But also Rogan didn't wanna have him anyways.

• 10:45Chris Williamson?

  And that. Um, is there any more information that you didn't include in the video? Was there anything that you felt was too much to hold back?

• 10:53Speaker 00

  Uh, blood work, I felt like it was a very long and elaborate dissection, and I felt like it kinda just was a little bit... It wasn't like redundant, because it had, I guess, new information, but it was more for the nerds and the guys who are highly interested in that stuff. And, um, it just didn't feel like it added more after the first video to put it out, when I feel like the communicated message was already sufficient to kind of achieve the, I don't know, kind of show exactly what had happened from inception to now. I don't necessarily think that going down the complete scientific dismantlement of like, a blood test panel

• 11:36Speaker 00

  was going to be something that added more to the conversation, other than being, I don't know, highly confusing, or otherwise maybe even boring, or, I don't know, like, it just didn't seem like it was going to add more to... That was, uh, worthwhile to pile on at that point.

• 11:52Chris Williamson?

  I wonder whether there's more, uh, secrets about his past, his business practices, drug use?

• 11:58Speaker 00

  There's zero chance that there's not more stuff out there with... Like, there's no way I was the only person he tried to reach out to, or this other coach. There's definitely more out there, for sure.

• 12:10Chris Williamson?

  That's the concern, right? It's the same reason why telling rumors about somebody to another third-party friend is always dangerous, because it's not just about the fact that you're telling the rumors, but it's the interpretation of the third-party friend about you being the sort of person that tells rumors, right? This is the concern that no one ever really thinks about when they start gossiping. It's like, you get known as a gossip. In the same way now, Liver King has been the most brazen, confident, full-fledged liar on the biggest platforms in the world. What else does that suggest that he can do?

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:45Chris Williamson?

  Like, the ambient anxiety that he must have.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:48Chris Williamson?

  Of just, whatever it is, all of the business practices are under scrutiny now, everyone's got eyes on him. Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me if there's more to come.

• 12:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, that's why I was kind of surprised his apology wasn't just a concise and full-fledged admittance of what happened and just, that's it. It had like hedges in it and kind of side tangents that might have been interpreted as kind of like cop-outs a little bit.

• 13:15Chris Williamson?

  What did you think about the apology video?

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Um, I thought it was very well crafted, and I think the, his supporters very much appreciated it. And a lot of them were like, we don't care, fuck it, doesn't matter. But I do think that some of the stuff in there that was mentioned was a little bit of a, a little bit of a hedge to justify, like, oh yeah, people are, have mental health issues and are killing themselves, so I took PEDs, like, you know, to build this more viral brand, to then get my message out to the masses further, to help the people who are suicidal, but, and because I also have mental issues, like he mentions his insecurity and whatnot. But it's like, is you building this character that is unachievable naturally,

• 14:01Speaker 00

  helping body image issues for men?

• 14:03Chris Williamson?

  100%.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  Or is it infinitely worse?

• 14:07Chris Williamson?

  Dude, like, he is causing the low self-esteem that he claims he's here to support.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then it's also, it would be one thing if there was no monetary upside to it, but for him to continue to hammer that, my businesses grow 50% year-over-year without my, without my push, it's like... Fuck off. Like, there's no chance.

• 14:25Chris Williamson?

  His physique was created to sell supplements, right? That's why it was that. It was premeditated. Now, his self-esteem may play into this. This, you know, a lot of businesses are like a commercial manifestation of the person, right? Like, your businesses have a bit of Derek in them, or a lot of Derek in them, because they're like, your philosophy infuses into them. But yeah, you can't claim that your physique has got nothing to do with creating a boatload of money for yourself. It's in the email.

• 14:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 14:53Chris Williamson?

  Like, it's in the fucking email there.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's like, while I, I do totally understand the, the benefits of TRT and, you know, HRT and having proper medical oversight, et cetera, like, some of the, the justifications for, like, DECA and Winstrol and stuff that is clearly only included to enhance your image to, like, in your 40s, there's nothing ancestral or conducive to longevity about adding in Winstrol. Like, let's be fucking honest. So, um, when he said it didn't help, it's just like, well, what was the desired outcome of it to begin with?

• 15:28Chris Williamson?

  When can you not support people through depression without taking a metric fuck ton of gear? Like, is that not, is that not possible?

• 15:35Speaker 00

  Like, I'm helping you not kill yourself by taking Winstrol.

• 15:41Chris Williamson?

  Oh, man. Well.

• 15:42Speaker 00

  What do you think about the apology?

• 15:44Chris Williamson?

  Dude, that man is like a WWE star.

• 15:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:48Chris Williamson?

  To me. I, the, the cadence of the speech, it was obviously heavily prepared and maybe even entirely scripted. I think there's one error throughout the whole thing. The whole, like, fucking movements and the pointing to the sky and these sort of pre-prepared little routines of words, to me, are not what an apology video is supposed to be about. He doesn't seem sorry. He doesn't seem sad. There is no part of vulnerability in that. It seems unbelievably performative to me. And you could say, um, that is part of his personality. Maybe that's just the cadence and, like, the way that he speaks and stuff. I'm prepared to accept that, but.

• 16:30Chris Williamson?

  I didn't feel sympathy for him and I feel sympathy. Other YouTubers do apologies and I'm like, yeah, fair enough. All of the caveats when it came to this is to do with self-esteem, the immediate misdirection toward four thousand men a day kill themselves and eighty thousand men a day try to take their own lives and stuff like that. It's like, bro, no one criticized you about that. No one even brought that up.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:57Chris Williamson?

  He also said, it's complicated. Do you think it's complicated?

• 17:01Speaker 00

  No, not really.

• 17:04Chris Williamson?

  You took drugs, like you were called out for taking drugs and lying about it.

• 17:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:09Chris Williamson?

  Where's the complication?

• 17:11Speaker 00

  I would understand the complication if he was on therapeutic replacement and that was it from day one and he didn't want people to think that his therapeutic replacement was something that everyone needed if they were following a good lifestyle, diet, et cetera. And there wasn't monetary upside to what he was doing and there wasn't this like lying to their faces and all this stuff, but it was just, yeah, it was, I don't know. Like the apology was not, some of the stuff he said was good. He said, I fucked up very clearly and acknowledged what he did. You know, some of it was great, for sure.

• 17:47Chris Williamson?

  You got, you got maybe thirty seconds of that before twice being told how rich he was and then again misdirection into the number of people that are trying. It's like, dude, it's on your shoulders. This wasn't in service of anything that was outside of your control. Like you're the person that chooses how, what happens with your business. You're the person that chooses what happens with your self-esteem. You're the person that's controlling the inputs and outputs that you have within your own life. You're not even restricted monetarily or in terms of resources. You can't even say, you know, I needed the money. It's like you said in second twenty-five of the video that you were rich before you even started doing this. Like this was completely elective, right?

• 18:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, but at the beginning, he says, I fucked up, like I own this. I thought it was a really bad move to not put it on his Instagram in full. I think it was incredibly contrived to take the most vague. Portion of the video that is on YouTube, clip that, put it as a reel on Instagram. And if people didn't know about the story, it gives him culpable deniability and it doesn't sort of Streisand effect the problem any further. And then the YouTube channel that only has like 200,000 subs, I mean, the video's done two mil by the time that we're speaking, which is a lot, but if he put it on his Instagram, story shares, extra exposure, that's his primary platform of growth. But he didn't put the full video on there. Well, why?

• 19:14Chris Williamson?

  It's not because of platform limitations, it's because he didn't want the exposure.

• 19:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think longer videos, you can have it in real format still, right? Like it's still the exact same push as a short video. And yeah, that's definitely notable.

• 19:29Speaker 00

  I don't know, like I definitely think his brands will survive and I think he will, uh, you know, continue to have his followers that are, uh, like ultimately a lot of the stuff he does talk about is positive. And I do think people would benefit from some of the things he preaches, but it's just, I don't know, the way he calculated this out meticulously and went about deceiving people was just hard to wrap your head around as a justified move at the end of the day.

• 19:55Chris Williamson?

  Just how many drugs was he on? Like, what are the sort of dosages for those of us that aren't, uh, a part of the?

• 20:02Speaker 00

  Off the top of my head, there is IGF-1, CJC, ipamorrelan, uh, MK677, GH, winstrol, DECA, test, so eight. And that's, you know, just going into the, you know, the, the questionnaire of trying to just say, this is what I'm doing right now, but I need next level and I need to, you know, figure this stuff out. Now, he was trying to figure out how, why all of the GH related stuff he was using was not working, because he does, I believe, have a unique genetic predisposition that makes it harder to produce IGF-1, or it was some of the other drugs he was using that were kind of inhibiting it, but.

• 20:42Chris Williamson?

  What gives you that sense?

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Well, because his IGF was less than 100, which is reflective of somebody who is. Like chronically malnourishing themselves potentially, um, and like a, I don't know, chronically keto dieting potentially fasting way too much. Like he's not representative of somebody who's in a, like a growth state necessarily.

• 21:04Chris Williamson?

  What makes you think that that is something which is inherent to him and not a byproduct of the lifestyle that he's leading?

• 21:13Speaker 00

  Ah, because when you're using that much shit, it's really hard to imagine that you wouldn't manually be putting your IGF one way higher. Like there's, like, he's a smart fucking guy, even though he dumbs himself down on podcasts to come across as more relatable and make it more understanding for, um, the people he's trying to inspire or whatever. Cause some of the stuff he would talk about otherwise is complicated, especially when it comes to, you know, the like, I don't know, biomarkers and endocrine hormones and what kind of impacts certain foods have. Like he very much dials it down to be as palatable and comprehen- and, uh, I don't know, like a palatable for the average person. Um, but I don't know, like just the, the low value was something that he couldn't even

• 21:58Speaker 00

  wrap his head around. Like that's one of the motivations that he was seeking, uh, guidance on essentially. Like, why am I on all this shit and it's not working?

• 22:06Chris Williamson?

  Well, I suppose that's one of the framings where you could have gone, look, uh, I, I think that there's something physiologically going on here. I've kind of got myself into this strange feedback cycle of taking more drugs to fix a problem, which potentially means that it shuts down production more, which makes more drug da, da, da, da, da, da.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:22Chris Williamson?

  That wasn't really the nature of the emails. That was a part of the emails, but the majority of the emails was.

• 22:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. It was driving the brand and getting virality. Yeah. Yeah. I just thought, yeah, it would have been, uh, more ethical of him to disclose what he was going to do with it and then give the opportunity for whoever he is trying to contact for guidance to decide from there. I'm okay with that in the way you're gonna do it versus not.

• 22:48Chris Williamson?

  Do I want to be the rocket fuel for this ship that's going to be stratospheric?

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like, obviously, you're not the one on camera doing it, but like, you're very much providing guidance and endorsing the process that he's doing.

• 23:01Chris Williamson?

  That's the first time that I've heard that taken. I think it's a really interesting one. Like, that's a really interesting ethical dilemma for somebody to be in. Like, if you want to synthesize the smallpox virus so that someone can study it in a lab, or synthesize the smallpox virus so someone can weaponize it and send it out into the world.

• 23:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:19Chris Williamson?

  Not quite the same, but do you believe that he's now on a therapeutic dose of 100mg of test per week?

• 23:27Speaker 00

  Um, well, it's 120, but even, I would, if he doesn't put out blood work regularly, which, you know, he has no obligation to, I'm sure people would like it, though, so they can know he's, you know, representing the ancestral lifestyle well and isn't walking around with a stressed out liver and kidneys and fucked up markers and stuff. Um, I'm sure he is probably doing something that he believes to be more therapeutic than blasting his face off, but it is, uh, if you're maintaining that physique, whatever you're doing is clearly not representative of physiologic replacement. Like, even guys who are on-

• 24:05Chris Williamson?

  Cause he's not got smaller.

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, if you're, if you're on 120mg, depending on where your test levels land, it might not be therapeutic replacement. Like, for context, again, like, I've seen the guy's blood work and it's with some of these levels, they will sustain themselves in perpetuity, essentially, because of the way the drug is released into the bloodstream. Like, it's a long ester and you are not having any dips following a diurnal rhythm through normal pulsatile secretions, which happens endogenously when you have natural testicular output of testosterone. Like, normally, you would have test levels go up in the morning, they would dip, kind of like go up and down, up and down, and you would not have a disproportionately high free T.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Testosterone that is supporting enhanced amounts of muscle mass, whereas when you're on exogenous TRT, even if you have, you're training twice a day, or you're, you know, getting shitty sleep, or you go out drinking, or whatever it is, like your levels stay exactly where you want them to, they don't dip, they don't change, and you have a disproportionately high free T. So even though on paper, it might look like you're in the reference range, like it might not be representative of that. And that's not to say he is or isn't in the reference range, because he's definitely been, like, he's definitely, he's definitely holding something that's unsustainable if he came off everything, put it that way.

• 25:23Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I mean, that was the conversation you originally had with Matt Does Fitness, right? So for people who don't know, Matt's this big fitness YouTuber who's in really, really great condition, and he wanted to come to you to get the most highly scrutinized type of blood work at a cadence that you thought was good enough for him to be able to prove his natural status. And the issue that you had, or the concern that you had is, if we start to do these tests at randomized frequency, and your condition begins to change, or the lifts that you've got begin to change, or we see some anomalies within the blood results, if there's no anomalies, and if your condition stays the same, we can be

• 26:05Chris Williamson?

  pretty reliable at knowing that right now, you are not taking anything to enhance. It seems like Liver King's just getting linearly bigger, and leaner, and drier at the moment.

• 26:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think he's probably plateaued by now. But yeah, in your mid 40s, you don't walk around like that, and you don't hold that when you are working out twice a day, you know, being spread so thin entrepreneurially, having a family to support, et cetera, et cetera. Like, you know, again, he doesn't have that much historical photos anyways to check his progress, and like when things, you know, picked up heavily. But like, he very much kind of elucidates himself, what I think is representative of prior Liver King, where it's like, my cruise dose is this, even though you're coming into a, like, this is me coming to you from square one, this was my cruise dose, heavily implying I have blasted. Because you would never say cruise dose if you're not a guy who blasts.

• 27:00Chris Williamson?

  Oh, hey.

• 27:01Speaker 00

  If it was just HRT, you would just say HRT.

• 27:03Chris Williamson?

  But it wasn't therapeutic.

• 27:06Chris Williamson?

  Do you believe, because he says in the

• 27:07Speaker 00

  Well, again, I don't want to misconstrue like point six cc's a test could very much be therapeutic. Like, I'm not saying that's high. It very much depends on what achieves symptom relief, what your levels again, like the levels on a piece of paper are kind of just arbitrary at the end of the day. It's about what if you had primary hypogonadism and you needed TRT, whatever gets you to symptom relief is probably what you need, even if it some guys need more than what Liver King takes in testosterone dose. But I'm just saying that the context in which he presents it very much implies that previous to even the request for how do I optimize my IGF-1 and take, you know, why is the GH not doing what I think it's going to do?

• 27:50Speaker 00

  There was to build the physique where he got like there was blasting involved.

• 27:54Chris Williamson?

  So you believe because he says in his apology that he was natural for 36 years of training twice a day, seven days a week.

• 28:04Speaker 00

  He kind of, I don't know why he put that in like he makes it sound like he just started hormones like right at that time. It's like, well, then your physique would have morphed by from then to now. And, you know, it's just not representative of that. And it was just more so the verbiage too, because again, you would, you would never say I cruise if you're, if you just started HRT, you wouldn't even know what the fuck cruising blasting is, you know? It's just very, well, maybe you would, but it's like you would never use that verbiage unless it implies this is my baseline to try and hold on to what I have. But when I'm pushing the envelope, it's something else.

• 28:43Chris Williamson?

  It would be very interesting to see because it's not like, although the Liver King as a, what was he called before Barbarian Lad?

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, that was like a

• 28:51Chris Williamson?

  Primal Boy.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  I don't, I don't know who deemed that to be his, you know, whatever, like that wasn't chosen by him because he clearly identified himself from as Liver King from even pre.

• 29:02Chris Williamson?

  Where's the Barbarian Lad thing come from?

• 29:04Speaker 00

  I don't know. I saw on Facebook. It was like a viral video on Facebook I got tagged in.

• 29:08Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  It was the first one I ever saw.

• 29:10Chris Williamson?

  Okay, um, my point being, even though that was the genesis of the character that he plays, literally talking about WWE guy here.

• 29:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. I feel like he could have just shown up at least with a shirt on to the, to the YouTube video, like come across as more like this is Brian talking.

• 29:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, make sure that I get a pump on before I do this video about how I took lots of steroids to get this physique.

• 29:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:32Chris Williamson?

  But yeah, he existed beforehand, right? So there will be, there has to be, no one, no one's a fucking digital ghost. So there has to be physique progressions over time. So even if you're not going to come out and do blood tests, why not maybe say, look, here's me at 33 years old.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:49Chris Williamson?

  33 years old, you can see I've already got muscle insertions, I've got the size, I've got the dryness, I've got the fullness. This proves that I haven't been taking drugs for this long. Or is it that some of the pretty sort of malignant looking blood work results are a byproduct of how much juice it took to get you to this stage?

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Hmm. Yeah, no, uh, I don't know if that would ever, like there are images of him where he looks much smaller and it's just few and far between. I don't know if his team like did a fucking scrub of the internet before he started, who knows? I don't know how well planned it was because again, like you, it didn't seem like the whole thing was forward thinking at all to begin with anyway, so it's kind of hard to speculate on that.

• 30:32Chris Williamson?

  What do you think the future's got in store for him?

• 30:35Speaker 00

  Um, I think as long as he remains fully transparent, but I don't know, like again, I don't think he is fully transparent even after the apology, but still, I think that overarching, there will be a subset of people who very much feel that it was a, you know, a necessary evil potentially to get the message out more, or people just don't care because they find him highly entertaining, or, um, I do think that he continues to grow on social media and, uh, make wild ancestrally consistent videos and shit. I don't, I don't think it changes that much. Like he definitely is going to carry this with him and people generally at least know the truth behind the inception of the brand now and what the plan was from day one, et

• 31:20Speaker 00

  cetera, but, um, I very much think it continues a little bit on the same track, all but with. More transparency to some extent.

• 31:30Chris Williamson?

  There's been something weird that's happened over the last few days since the video that you released went out and it is a lot of Instagram stories from him tagging you in this sort of appreciative, almost collaborative or attempting, I think, to position himself as collaborative with you, to not position himself in any way as an adversary of yours. Like, that's the number one thing. There was a video of him that you must have seen sat around the table with his kids at dinner.

• 32:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:01Chris Williamson?

  Saying, you know, before we eat, like, I want to say thank you to Derek for doing the whatever. He said, you're the catalyst to help bring him to his knees and rise to new heights that he's eternally grateful for. What do you feel? Are you feeling the gratitude?

• 32:19Speaker 00

  It's, dude, I don't know what he says is part of the character or not at this point. So it's like, I don't necessarily think it comes from like a totally honest place necessarily, as you would expect. But I understand why he would be doing it to, you know, he's, if he aligns with the video and makes it seem like he's great, has gratitude for it coming out and it helps him, you know, be a more transparent and better man in the future than like what else? I don't know what else he could position it as, or just not talk about it at all. I don't know. What do you think? I don't even know what to think about it, dude. Like, wrapping my head around the whole situation is.

• 32:59Chris Williamson?

  Very strange. It's very strange. I think it makes sense to use it as a defensive strategy. For all that on the outside, he looks relatively unflappable. The apology video, to me, held very little vulnerability or sadness in it. It didn't seem authentic. It didn't make me feel like any sympathy for him.

• 33:23Chris Williamson?

  There still must be a lot of frenetic, we need to fix this, we need to come up with a solution to order to stop this, not even just, there is a person in there, right? There is a human in there for whom this is going to be a difficult time, like, and I do want to recognize the fact that this will fucking suck personally for him. So it's not like every single thing is a contrived business activity and he's literally like the mouthpiece puppet of a business that he also happens to run. Yeah. But I think the reason that he would do it, that he is trying to align himself so closely with you, with the Instagram stories, with the gratitude, with the rise to new

• 34:04Chris Williamson?

  greater heights and all of that stuff, is in an attempt to down-regulate the in-group, out-group dynamic that weaponizes people on the internet. Like, that is what causes people to really fucking dig their heels into something. So if he was to say, Derek's a fucking piece of shit, he shouldn't have released those emails, I think that it's unethical, stonewalled or lied or said like, I'm gonna, whatever, whatever, whatever, like, if he'd done any of that, the entire internet would have got behind you. They would have said, you've just been rumbled and we're gonna take you down for it. The only way that you can deal with this is to be the very gracious, very humble, very

• 34:47Chris Williamson?

  accepted, and to not position yourself as someone that is on the other side of this discussion to the person who has massive amounts of respect, a huge, massive loyal fanbase, and is generating like 2 million plays a day on their YouTube channel from one video, like, you can't do that. And I think that that closeness and affinity is a protective mechanism. I'm not saying that that is exclusively contrived either, like, I genuinely think that you're just like, I don't know whether you ever did this in school, did you ever get, you would accidentally like play too hard and hit someone and they would start crying and then you'd go, ah, and you'd start crying as if you'd been hit as well. Like, I see this happening with kid, little kids all the time, that they just, they want

• 35:30Chris Williamson?

  to try and find affinity with the person that is maybe a little bit of an adversary and that that tries to calm down the the energy a bit.

• 35:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, uh, it's hard to say, man, like wrapping my head around the situation is like, I don't really know what to make of it. Sometimes when I think about the whole picture, it's just mind blowing. This is even a thing. It seems like a, like a movie almost. It's just, it's just absurd.

• 35:54Chris Williamson?

  I've seen a couple of interesting takes coming out of the ancestral slash paleo slash carnivore community, uh, saying people already think that we're like weird enough as it is. Like, this was Michaela's point, right? That she said, like, everyone already looks at carnivore and lion diet people and thinks that they're freaks. Um, like this guy is not making our job any easier of assisting people with autoimmune disorders or whatever it is that they're trying to fix with a particular diet. Um, he's not making it any easier.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  No, like, yeah, stuff. Cause again, it's if you have to make an excuse for why you did this whole marketing strategy around your brand, but you have these noble intentions that are underpinning the whole thing. And that's why you did it. And then it's like all the other carnivore people have to then say, no, trust me, the diet actually is useful for certain people. And that's not a representation of why we do it or why we'd recommend it or whatever. Um, yeah, I can imagine it would be kind of a weird thing to navigate for them.

• 36:58Chris Williamson?

  It's a little bit of a, like a trolley problem, you know, is the net benefit of this guy, the nine ancestral tenants that seem pretty fucking good, you know, like I rely on a bunch of them myself, although not through him.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:10Chris Williamson?

  Um,

• 37:13Chris Williamson?

  how much of that good information ultimately is tarnished by it coming from a place of uh, contrived, uh, fundamentally not natural, uh, foundations?

• 37:28Speaker 00

  Um, like it's definitely, I, I think a lot, like I said, I think a lot of the, the tenants are quite useful and I think would highly benefit a lot of people's lives. It's just, the issue is that he does not necessarily live them himself. Like he, to some extent, yeah, but it's like, oh, your cell phone next to your dick and balls is going to kill your testosterone. It's like, well, you're on testosterone, like. How much did that work?

• 37:53Chris Williamson?

  You've got no concerns about that.

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, and you know, I'm, I'm fairly certain, now again, I don't know his entire medical history, but it would be, I would be surprised if he actually, you know, needed all the stuff that he's doing. Like, I'm sure the guys like Paul Saladino are a good representation of, here's my blood work on an actual carnivore diet and what it can do for you before and after, and why I believe it to be effective. And yeah, he kind of leans in the more viral route for reels and stuff nowadays, which some people frown upon, like Lee Norton, some of the guys in the nutrition space who otherwise think Paul is too tunnel visioned on demonizing certain things to propel

• 38:35Speaker 00

  his message a bit more. But he's a very, very intelligent and I think represents it to probably the most, to as ethical of a degree as he could while also simultaneously selling supplements and stuff. Because no matter what, you're gonna have people saying, oh, you're a sellout, you're a snake oil salesman, whatever. Like, once you start selling anything that supports your thing, that you're also a, the, the front-facing spokesperson for. So, and that's, you know, and not necessarily a fair take when there is, I think there is utility to things like, like beef liver capsules. If you hate the taste of it, by all means, take a, take a supplement.

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Like, who cares? It's just the marketing behind it. At least Paul is at least forthcoming about, like, this is why you would use it. It's not gonna make you, you know, a jack bodybuilder who looks like a WWE character, but it might make you healthier because of the micronutrients kind of thing.

• 39:31Chris Williamson?

  When we're talking about testosterone generally, I'm hearing a lot more about guys going on TRT. In America, it seems to be significantly bigger than it is in the UK, which is where I'm from originally. What are the health risks that guys should consider if they're thinking about going on TRT? Someone comes to you and says, hey, man, I'm whatever, at an age where I feel like this is something that I want to do, what should I be concerned about? What would you tell them?

• 40:00Speaker 00

  Well, it depends the context in which they enter into that because again, if you don't actually need it and you get on it, you could be making yourself less healthy if you're already perfectly functioning, top tier, and you're just doing it because, I don't know, you wanted to look like Liver King or some shit like, I don't know. But if you don't, if you do need it and you're clinically deficient, you are, and again, not medical advice, but in general, you're going to be more prone to things like cardiovascular disease, neurodegeneration, et cetera. So it's kind of like, if you actually clinically need something to then say, what is the downside to TRT? It's like, what is the downside of not being on TRT at that point potentially? That's the kind of how I would frame it for the actual clinical

• 40:46Speaker 00

  utility of it in a real deficient setting. It's kind of like, what could you be staving off by using it in a responsible way? It's kind of, and again, I think this is where like Brian could come in and be educating and actually say, this is, you know, like, he knows why stuff is actually useful and healthy or has actual utility in a clinical setting, but he very much, you know, foregoes that because it just doesn't fit the, well, up to now, it hadn't fit the narrative essentially.

• 41:16Chris Williamson?

  Would you be surprised if the volume of drugs that it's likely that he's taken wouldn't have taken a little bit of time off his health span?

• 41:26Speaker 00

  Oh, for sure. Yeah, it's definitely not conducive to longevity. The bigger you are, the more muscle you have. Okay, this is too vague of a statement because I was about to say, if you have too much muscle, you're just going to die quicker. In general, humans who are bigger and have more demands from their organs to support their infrastructure are going to live a shorter amount of time in general. Like a small, tiny Asian woman is probably going to outlive the jacked brontosaurus human that's on a bodybuilding stage every single time.

• 41:59Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Because of the stress and taxation it takes to support the demands of that tissue. So, and also it depends how regulating you are of things like blood pressure. Are you letting it get out of whack? Do you have a resting heart rate of like, are you like borderline tachycardia all the time with a hundred resting heart rate and you're never getting to sleep because you're so jacked up on androgens or like whatever? Like, there are so many things that play into it. It's multifactorial for sure, but in general, if you are just a, and again, this isn't to say, because there is definitely a push in the longevity community to be protein deficient and be as small as possible and be frail and just live a terrible life, but live to a hundred plus. Like, there needs to be a happy medium, in my opinion, for a high quality of life that's

• 42:42Speaker 00

  also trying to live as long as possible with that high quality. Because you're gonna die eventually and you want those years to be, you know, frail, like barely fucking functional in a chair? Probably not. So, there's definitely a happy medium, but in general, the, uh, the more you go super physiologic, the less healthy it is in all areas, is kind of the best way to put it.

• 43:04Chris Williamson?

  That's a really good take and I totally know what you mean with regards to the balance between longevity, uh, amount of years and quality of those. Do you want to feel good, perform well, be able to do a variety of tasks and be able to live life to its fullest? Or do you want to permanently be in this ambient anxiety about whether or not your oxalate level has gone through the roof because you didn't eat the right type of spinach this morning? Like, that is, I think one of the concerns, I dug into the longevity community for a long time and Dr. David Sinclair's been on twice and went to go meet him in Harvard and it was just after he'd been on Rogan and then I went to go and see him in Boston the week after that.

• 43:44Speaker 00

  He's getting a lot of heat recently.

• 43:46Chris Williamson?

  I've heard.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. People think he's coordinating with the FDA to get NMN banned in the supplement industry.

• 43:52Chris Williamson?

  Do you think that's true? I haven't looked into this at all.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  I haven't looked into it enough, but there is pretty damning suggestive things that don't look too favorable.

• 44:02Chris Williamson?

  And are people, um...

• 44:05Chris Williamson?

  Like attached to their access to NMN.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  It's like, I don't even know if it has that much utility at the end of the day, but it's just the fact that he's trying to restrict people so then he can benefit.

• 44:18Chris Williamson?

  Interesting.

• 44:19Speaker 00

  Potentially, again.

• 44:20Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, allegedly. I haven't, I saw one headline about this and didn't, haven't read it yet.

• 44:25Speaker 00

  But it makes you also wonder, is it just because he's a big name that then has monetary upside now that automatically equals he's a piece of shit? Cause that's often, when people start making money off something that they were otherwise just talking about with seemingly no bias or financial incentive, et cetera. You know, he's very much been on many podcasts and made it seem like, you know, I don't necessarily recommend it. It's just what I do.

• 44:49Chris Williamson?

  But he literally says, uh, when people ask what NMN do you take? And he's like, I, I, like, I don't have a recommendation. He actually ended up, I think, starting to say Alive by Nature was the one that he began using after a while. Something tells me the only reason that he gave up any brand that he uses was simply because he was sick of being asked which branded is that he used. It was like a fucking, just take anything from me.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's a wild and odd scenario that I feel like the, maybe not the exact same, but like Huberman or Sinclair. They often find themselves in a weird situation where they'll talk about something they feel is promising, but they're so influential that it then spurs people trying to buy it as you would expect. And then when they ask him for his recommendation, he's like, do I just tell you a brand or are you going to then think I have some sort of like?

• 45:36Chris Williamson?

  Well, also you, you're adding in, I've done the due diligence about Tonga Ali and Fadoja regrestus, let's say. And I've looked at the, the data on the backend of that. You're going to then ask me for a supplement recommendation off the back of that, which now requires me to go and do a whole shit ton more investigation in order to see whether double words or like gorilla mode or like whatever it is, is like the optimal product for me to go and take. So I, I understand the hesitation around that, but when I first spoke to David and the longevity, R slash longevity Reddit was going off. It's a very passionate community in a way that few others are.

• 46:17Chris Williamson?

  And I wonder how much of the longevity communities, like real vehement obsession and passion for it is kind of like a denial of death thing. That inbuilt into the longevity community, you have to assume that there is a large minority, maybe even more of people who have found that as a techno utopia secular equivalent of trying to find eternal life that you would have done previously spiritually. And if someone comes in and says, starts to either criticize the community or restrict their access to supplements that they think is going to like get them to the promised land, they're going to respond in kind.

• 47:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's like, if you design something from scratch, like how NMN came to be, you know, it's just like a basic thing that could be derived from like, like for example, nicotinic acid or niacin or any of these things that are very, very overlapping. These are readily available as supplements. So I don't really know how the hype behind NMN came to be, if it was just Sinclair or what, but it's definitely a, I don't know, it's problematic when you know that the price of it is probably going to be exorbitantly higher than the supplement itself, because it's going to be from pharmaceutical standards and prescribed to you. And then it's going to involve some hiked up, hiked up amount that it costs, et cetera.

• 47:45Speaker 00

  And yeah, like I can, I can see why he's getting backlash regardless, even if he feels like he deserves the monetary upside and he doesn't want to publicly say it, like he might very much feel like I'm the only creator of the hype, fuck you guys, I'm gonna capitalize on it.

• 47:57Chris Williamson?

  That's an interesting position. Yeah, I mean, we were talking about this over dinner last night about the.

• 48:03Chris Williamson?

  Unbelievable degree of influence that certain guys have got hell, especially in the health and fitness space. And Max Lugavere was on the show and is nutrition scientist. And I was like, bro, why is nutrition science such a mess? Why is it the case everybody, every single person on the planet eats multiple times per day? How can it be that it's so contested? And the, the point is that when you can manipulate studies to be able to fit whatever kind of narrative or rhetoric it is that you want, you're always going to get the opportunity for fuckery from people. They're always going to be able to slide themselves in to different

• 48:43Chris Williamson?

  bits and pieces there. Going back to the testosterone conversation, men's testosterone dropping 1% per year since the 1980s and they're at all time record lows and stuff like that. Is this something that we should be worried about? Do you think?

• 48:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, for sure. Definitely.

• 49:00Chris Williamson?

  Why is it happening? In your, in your opinion?

• 49:04Speaker 00

  I think it's multifactorial and it is a combination of lifestyle, environmental exposure, diet choices, lack of exercise, poor lifestyle habits, sedentary jobs now, no exposure to sunlight, being indoors all the time, more people are depressed from social media too. Like there, there's just so many things that are conducive to being a sedentary, lazy, apathetic piece of shit, basically. And these are not conducive to masculinity or to making testosterone, obviously. Right? Do you agree?

• 49:44Chris Williamson?

  I, I do. I, I don't know the way that our testosterone production can be influenced by environmental factors.

• 49:51Speaker 00

  Oh, if you see a, like a, a hot chick, all the T goes up.

• 49:56Chris Williamson?

  I found out that it goes up if you're around weapons.

• 49:59Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 49:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. If you're near a gun.

• 50:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:01Chris Williamson?

  So that's a, an advisor for keeping lots of weapons, I suppose, in your house and touching them regularly.

• 50:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Just wake up and just fuck.

• 50:09Chris Williamson?

  Stroking guns on a morning. But um, I, I, I don't know how big the impact can be, right? On um, human physiology, simply from what you're talking about.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  Lack of sleep in itself can just fucking destroy you. And a lot of people are perpetually five to six hours with poor quality sleep.

• 50:27Chris Williamson?

  Have we got data that people's sleep has decreased? The quality of sleep and the length of sleep has decreased over time?

• 50:34Speaker 00

  You'd have to defer to Matthew Walker on that for like an exact statistic, but I'm fairly certain that you could confidently say in general, sleep quality and duration has deteriorated in recent years, quite significantly.

• 50:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, it's interesting to think that um,

• 50:52Chris Williamson?

  we could be, our environment could be the architect of this downfall. If there was one thing that you would just, if you had to put money on a roulette of what are the biggest contributors? What, where is the burrito for this or what is making the biggest impact? What would be up there? Maybe sleep?

• 51:13Speaker 00

  Touching receipts.

• 51:14Chris Williamson?

  Touching receipts? Yeah, I fucking told you, I fucking told you, bro. You rubbing it all over yourself last night?

• 51:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:21Chris Williamson?

  I saw you.

• 51:21Speaker 00

  Nah, it's, I would say.

• 51:23Chris Williamson?

  Dipping your bowls in it?

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, I shouldn't have done that. I think it was mainly the, the bad sleep, I think, is very, very impactful. And a lot of people are in a perpetually trying to compensate state for their poor sleep with overconsumption of stimulants, caffeine, et cetera, to make up for the shitty sleep, which the half-life of these drugs is bleeding into the night when you're trying to get to sleep. And it's just this vicious circle of a disaster that results in low, low hormone output. And it's fucking terrible, dude. And then there's, you know, the diets have been pretty bad in recent years in terms of like quality and choice of foods. You know, people are going to stuff that's not even food. And what is something that is fake and tastes good,

• 52:09Speaker 00

  but doesn't have any micronutrient density? There's that and just like general, general low hanging fruit, as much as they're obvious, very much get neglected.

• 52:18Chris Williamson?

  Okay, okay, let's say someone's listening and they go, this Brian guy doesn't seem like my bag. Don't take an assful of steroids. I want to get myself to as healthy a level of testosterone, naturally using lifestyle, a diet and maybe non-clinical supplementation as I can.

• 52:36Chris Williamson?

  What's the prescription? This is not medical advice.

• 52:38Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, dude, that's so general. I could say.

• 52:42Chris Williamson?

  What would you do if you were to say?

• 52:43Speaker 00

  I would be like.

• 52:44Chris Williamson?

  What are the principles that people should follow?

• 52:46Speaker 00

  I would say getting to bed at the same time every night, ideally, and waking up at the same time every morning, following your circadian rhythm. You know, as it starts to get dark, you start to wind down. You get to bed at an adequate time, hopefully around, you know, depending on where you live, your schedule, et cetera. But ideally, no later than like 11 or 12. Getting up as the sun's coming up, it's not always going to be, you know, perfect like that. But I mean, just following your circadian rhythm in general very, very much aligns with the diurnal rhythm that your like pulsatile secretion of hormones would follow. And when you start to manipulate that in like an artificial way and trying to, I don't know, putting yourself in situations that are not conducive to high quality sleep.

• 53:30Speaker 00

  It's, you know, bright outside and you're trying to go to bed or whatever. You don't have blackout blinds. Like, there are ways to try and hack it. But at the end of the day, I think that even when I track my sleep metrics, when I go to bed at 10:00 PM versus 2:00 AM, I think it's a dramatic difference in terms of quality, I feel like, in general. And I don't think anyone actually has a full, clear answer on that, by the way, because I've asked guys like Huberman and stuff about if I go to bed at 2:00 AM, but I sleep eight hours and I have blackout blinds and I optimize everything, could I get the same health outcomes as if I was, you know, a dialed in like 9:30 PM sleeper?

• 54:05Chris Williamson?

  Well, what would be the difference between that and just going to another time zone? Basically, the only thing you would maybe do is restrict the amount of daylight on the back end because obviously nighttime is going to arrive sooner if you've got up a little bit later. So you're going to restrict the amount of daylight that you got. But even if you could compensate with that by going, right, okay, I'm going to overexpose myself to sunlight during the day or to daylight, then.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, that would be interesting. Like, your body's pretty intuitive, and oftentimes, I think it knows better than you do. Like, when people try and hack their body, sometimes they're fighting against something that is not leading to an optimal outcome, and they could have otherwise just been following the common principles of go to bed at a good time, after the sun goes down, get up at the same time every morning, sort of following, you know, the normal circadian rhythm that a human should follow. I'm not saying you have to do it, but that's what I would generally recommend. Okay, that's sleep. Yeah. Sleep is sorted. What else is someone doing? Optimal testosterone, naturally. A good proportion of, like, not depriving yourself entirely of fats in your diet, because some people will very much, especially in the fitness space, will go protein, carbs.

• 55:11Speaker 00

  They very much want to try and hit their body weight in protein, and then they'll have carbs, but then they will neglect fat content, which can be detrimental to testosterone, and that's often overlooked. Even people are eating adequate calories. They are sometimes depriving themselves of basic things like one macronutrient entirely, or micronutrient density. Like, one of the things I do is I plug my diet into this thing called chronometer. It's kind of like MyFitnessPal, but it's more comprehensive in that it breaks down all of the micronutrients and minerals of your foods. So it shows what vitamins and minerals you're deficient in of your diet model, and then you can then backfill accordingly based on what you're deficient in. Wow. So that is typically what I would recommend, too, because if you don't have the cofactors

• 55:54Speaker 00

  and substrate to actually produce the hormones, even if you're eating what you consider to be a good diet, it might be deficient in adequate zinc, or it might be deficient in adequate bioavailable B vitamins, or whatever. Like, it would be worthwhile to kind of, at least one time, like, flesh out, if you follow a consistent diet, what does that yield in terms of all of the vitamins and minerals, and is that satisfactory for optimal hormone output? And that's where you can then determine, like, actual targeted supplementation. Because oftentimes, people are blindly taking shit like, oh, I think I need to drink. So I'll just take this.

• 56:27Chris Williamson?

  They're compensating for malnutrition in one form or another with supplementation.

• 56:33Speaker 00

  If you need to, like, obviously, food, whole foods is in general, I would say, going to be better. But it depends because some people don't want to eat more. Some people have goals that are, you know, body fat related and they want to maybe even restrict calories. And at that point, you might be cutting something out that was hitting your micronutrient allotment for some specific thing. And that's where you would then supplement potentially.

• 56:54Chris Williamson?

  So there is a like a tension between calories, calories in and the micronutrients that you begin to cut calories to the point where you can't eat enough to be able to get the micronutrients in.

• 57:08Speaker 00

  Depending on what your goals are, because again, some people don't care about getting, you know, as lean as you, for example.

• 57:14Chris Williamson?

  Come on. Okay, so we've got food, we've got sleep. What else? What else is in there is the big movers for testosterone production?

• 57:21Speaker 00

  Um, but like as far as environmental stressors and whatnot, it's hard for me to quantify like all the chlorine in your fucking shower is killing your test. Like, I don't know for sure, but I would probably hedge against.

• 57:33Chris Williamson?

  Have you got a special filter in your shower? Do you? What brand is it? Do you know?

• 57:38Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 57:38Chris Williamson?

  But you can just search like chlorine filter, showerhead chlorine filter or something?

• 57:42Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, probably like you could probably vet out a good one within with a little bit of research. Don't rely on me for that. I don't even know if mine's the best one, but I remember when I was looking for it. It seemed to be like, I would very much do a lot of the same research as other people are thinking like, okay. YouTube, who, who do I trust in the industry that otherwise has made videos on this content and is otherwise already dissected the literature? Okay, does that guy know what he's talking about? Okay, let me cross reference it against a couple of other people that I trust and are educated. Boom. And then you kind of create a conclusive educated guess as to what is the best. Do they have monetary upside from promoting this thing? Are they sponsored? Blah, blah, blah. Go look at the Amazon reviews. Does that look favorable? You know, obviously, stuff can be manipulated.

• 58:26Speaker 00

  You can't ever fully trust anything, I guess, but I mean, you gotta do, you just do your due diligence and try and do what you can.

• 58:32Chris Williamson?

  What other environmental factors apart from?

• 58:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, like that was a hyper specific example. Off the top of my head, like I know, uh, I don't know how impactful the receipts thing is.

• 58:43Chris Williamson?

  Stop touching receipts, son. That's what I'm telling you.

• 58:46Speaker 00

  So that, I guess, um, what else? Uh, oh, cooking in like, like plastics for, I think is something that could be impactful.

• 58:54Chris Williamson?

  Cooking in plastics?

• 58:55Speaker 00

  Not cooking, like heating stuff up and like storing stuff in plastics, drinking out of plastic bottles, not ideal.

• 59:01Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, okay, we are killing ourselves.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  I'm traveling. I would normally have a glass bottle, but, uh.

• 59:06Chris Williamson?

  Uh, yeah. One thing that I found is a really nice solution for that. Um, a bunch of different companies make glass Tupperware.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:13Chris Williamson?

  Plastic lid glass sides, which I'm gonna guess is mostly okay, because the food's not gonna be touching the top.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, all my prep meals are in glass containers.

• 59:20Chris Williamson?

  Really nice, super easy to clean, don't smell as much. If you do end up leaving it for a few days, you don't feel like, oh god, it's infused into the container now and I've permanently got this sort of moldy residue that's gonna be in there.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:33Chris Williamson?

  Um, steel shakers.

• 59:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:35Chris Williamson?

  For, uh, using, uh, protein and whatnot, uh, probably some sort of cooler as well would be steel. Be interested to know, I'm gonna guess that Yeti and, and companies like that have done a good bit of research into, um, are the metals leaking in at all? Is there any, any risk of that? Uh, Ben Greenfield was on the show and he was telling me that, uh, Zevia, Zevia's the sweet drink, right? Um, he had the, one of the product development managers at that place on and they, they used a special type of aluminium that, uh, was leaking less.

• 1:00:11Speaker 00

  Aluminum?

• 1:00:12Chris Williamson?

  Alu- aluminium. I'm British, son. We, we actually have an extra.

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  I was just double checking, I know what you're talking about.

• 1:00:19Chris Williamson?

  Come on now, come on, you're Canadian, come on.

• 1:00:21Speaker 00

  Do I say stuff weird? Sometimes?

• 1:00:24Chris Williamson?

  You, bits and pieces.

• 1:00:26Speaker 00

  I say a boot, apparently.

• 1:00:28Chris Williamson?

  Do you? Are you very polite?

• 1:00:31Speaker 00

  I think.

• 1:00:31Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, I the one, one of my good friends, Dr. Stu McGill, I landed off a plane. The first thing he said to me when I got to Canada was, how are you? Good, he says, and how have my countrymen been to you? Have they been polite? And I was like, is this, are you, is this like a joke or is this real? And he's like, oh, yeah, perfectly polite. He's like, good, good, good. Got on with his day. So apparently you're genetically predisposed to being polite. But yeah, the

• 1:00:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's all right.

• 1:00:56Chris Williamson?

  The fucking metal, the metal that's in the drink, right? The metal that's in the Zevia can is, they've looked at formulating that in different ways. So people are certainly coming around to it, but I was walking through Whole Foods with a bunch of friends that are big into the health and fitness, anti-seed oil, anti-estrogens in everything, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, what about that? Can I have that? And they're like, no, can't have that, can't have that, can't have that. I was like, what about those candles over there? And they said, no, full of estrogens, can't have that fucking incense over there. That's got it in, so.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  If you actually wanted to adequately assess the impact of these things, though, like again, how impactful are they at the end of the day? Like even things like your lifestyle, your exercise regimen, all super impactful, above and beyond the sleep, the diet, the exposure to all these toxins, et cetera. Doing blood work, I think, is absolutely warranted to have a baseline as early as possible, where it's, you know, your peak hormone output, you know, 21, 25 years old, have some sort of baseline profile that's comprehensive. So then if something goes awry, you can then go back and identify where there are deficiencies and balances, et cetera, what went wrong and why. So some of these exposures to whatever it is that's detrimental to testosterone or lackluster, fill in the blank.

• 1:02:13Speaker 00

  If you change that, you could then get blood work done to assess, is my gonadotropin output now sufficient compared to before if it was suboptimal? You can see pretty clearly, like rather than being speculative about, does this help? Maybe I should totally change this area of my life because it might be suboptimal. Like there are some things that might be, you don't want to do, that you think are going to be conducive to better hormones and maybe it has no impact whatsoever. And at that point, you could go get a basic testosterone test.

• 1:02:39Chris Williamson?

  Marekhealth.com.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  You could go there. That would be, that would be a worthwhile place to go.

• 1:02:44Chris Williamson?

  I'll do your ad reads for you.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  No, thanks, bro. Appreciate it.

• 1:02:47Chris Williamson?

  We spoke about Andrew Huberman today. What's your thoughts on him, his contributions?

• 1:02:52Speaker 00

  Um, overarching is one of the best educational resources, I would say. That is also one of the only individuals that I believe to be very, very,

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  I don't know, like dedicated to putting out the best information, even at the detriment of potential views. Like he will not just host people who will get high views. He will host people that he feels are have high level contribution to the community at large and are educational and could otherwise inform him of things he doesn't even know. And he's very open to criticism, even from YouTubers who aren't medically qualified like myself. Like he did not get upset or annoyed when I first reacted to one of his Joe Rogan episodes and I had talked about some of the stuff he said about some of the bodybuilding drugs he had mentioned, some of the interactions with endocrine hormones. I kind of did one of my classic reaction videos and gave kind of my insight on what I felt to be correct.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  And he was very, very polite. Like a lot of people could take that the wrong way and be like, I'm a fucking like world top tier neuroscientist and you piece of shit YouTuber. You don't know anything. Who are you to talk about this? And he was not like that at all. He, you know, we've become decent friends, I would say, since then. He's always open to learning, even if it's from people who aren't like medically credentialed, which is awesome, because there are a lot of people out there who are, some of the people I learned the most from aren't M Ds or guys who are otherwise seen as, you know, the forefront on paper qualified person. There are people who are just entrenched in learning more and are otherwise

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  very much doing the same thing he does too, where they'll just host people and learn or dig into literature themselves, stay up to date on most of the, on the most cutting edge developments in endocrinology, pharmacology, whatever it is. And he's, uh, yeah, he's great.

• 1:04:44Chris Williamson?

  It seems like a rarity to have someone that has got the scientific rigor and the preparedness to go through what I imagine aren't exactly entertaining papers, not exactly like a riveting read. To then Take all of that out, look at what does this mean for the everyday person? And then turn it into something that's an applied solution. That's an awful lot of work. And you know, the podcast is unbelievably successful and he has this fantastic platform now and his live shows are going wild and all the rest of it. But like, let's be fair, he works as podcasters go, that man works incredibly hard for what he gets out. It's not like he's publishing an episode every single day.

• 1:05:28Chris Williamson?

  He's not live streaming all the time. He's taking weeks, months, sometimes to do research for a single episode. This one's going to be about grief. This one's going to be about mating psychology. This one's going to be about exercise science or whatever. And you're like, this guy's gone as deep as is possible on pretty much anything and everything that's available to do it. The interesting thing, a massive fan of Andrew, become really like tight with him since he came on the show. And I find him like a really giving, like kind person. Which again, for that industry, you'd think like super autistic, just head in the books without any compassion or whatever. And not the case either. The biggest difference or the interesting thing that I realized, I think, since Huberman's been on the scene,

• 1:06:14Chris Williamson?

  the biohacking community overall has begun to look more and more silly to me personally. I don't know whether that's the case for everybody else, but the very sort of experimental, forward thinking, like super out there stuff that was being done, kind of seems a bit silly and under evidenced. Give me an example.

• 1:06:39Chris Williamson?

  Red light sunning on your balls and like claiming that that's like the biggest thing, the most important thing that you need to do. PCP injections into like whatever, whatever fucking part of your body in order to be able to facilitate that blah, blah, blah. Like the different types of lights that people would get either on glasses or around their neck to activate certain glands or whatever. That was like a thing for a big while, these sort of necklaces almost that had lights built into them that people would use. Like all manner of wild shit that was happening, using like brain train EMF machines in order to be able to optimize your meditation practice and stuff like that.

• 1:07:21Chris Williamson?

  In comparison with someone like Huberman, who just comes out and goes, this is what the science says, this is what we know, like hard and fast. This is something that has evidence that backs it up. This is a tool that we can fairly derive from those conclusions. This is something that you should try with an appropriate amount of caveats. And to me, it's thrown the biohacking community into quite harsh light. Some of the elements of the biohacking community that were super out there. Now, that being said, there are a bunch of things that I'm sure that Andrew suggests that the biohacking community was light years ahead on. But if you throw a lot of shit at the wall, inevitably, some of it's going to stick. And I think in for a like bang for your buck.

• 1:08:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Chris Williamson?

  Per minute, content consumption versus usable strategy. I think that the science route that Andrew goes down is just like second to none.

• 1:08:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he's very quick to correct himself, even when he says something that's wrong. Like I saw your podcast with him and he even like went and commented, I made a mistake at this part. Like, how many people do that?

• 1:08:25Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, his preparedness to not be psychologically attached to the stuff that he puts out. There is something that I think we all probably could learn a little bit from because it's very difficult. And this is where I know that, you know, to bring Brian back into it, it must be difficult to have your entire public persona get dragged. Now, whether it was a contrived persona in an attempt to sell products that were built off the back of a body that was created using that is by the by. However, it's not easy. It's not easy to be criticized online. Like, it fucking sucks.

• 1:09:06Chris Williamson?

  Like, the difference between me and my work and how people perceive that and my worth as a person and whether or not I am fundamentally a piece of shit is like kind of hard. You know what I mean?

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:20Chris Williamson?

  Do you feel this? I mean, you know, you're regularly stepping into all manner of different contested topics. Is this something that you feel as well?

• 1:09:28Speaker 00

  Um, yeah, like it's, uh, what is, what is the overarching question that you're trying to ask here? Like, how do I feel about?

• 1:09:35Chris Williamson?

  Criticism online.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 1:09:37Chris Williamson?

  Personally involved with it.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I definitely rate it and I probably should be better about maybe not taking it so personally. When people are going to disagree with you and sometimes you could actually be wrong. And, um, you know, I very much do acknowledge when I'm incorrect on something and try to be open to learning more. And, um, I don't know, like, I guess not being so dedicated to your way of, wait, your way of the highway is the only way. Is very important to maintain, I don't know, flexibility as a creator and have the, be able to retain an audience long-term and have trust factor with them in that you are not just dedicated to something, even at the detriment of it being wrong,

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  or at their harm, or something that you then find out to be totally incorrect. Like, you know, there's a lot of stuff that, um, back in the day, I thought to be true, that ended up not being true. And I learn otherwise and you have to be open to going back on that, or else you are not a high-quality resource, I would say. You have to be very open to the criticism and/or learning more in general, for sure.

• 1:10:45Chris Williamson?

  Keeping the ego small, and this is not just for creators, it's everybody, right? Everybody is, uh, existentially passionately connected to their point of view as a representation of themselves. Especially given that a lot of what people are represented as on the internet now are their opinions. Like you are your takes for a very, like, broad amount of time. Like even the most old school of like Facebook, that is, people are going to be having takes on a platform, which was supposed to be photos for family and shit like that.

• 1:11:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Chris Williamson?

  Um, so I understand why it's difficult to do it and I feel it in myself as well. Um, but keeping your ego small and having strong opinions loosely held, not loose opinions strongly held, is, if you can get used to accepting that you're wrong, or accepting that you need to correct your opinion, course correct the direction that you have with things.

• 1:11:43Chris Williamson?

  It's going to make progress way easier because you're going to be able to crowdsource. If you're not existentially like bothered about whether you're right or wrong, you're just simply trying to seek truth. You go, well, I get to crowdsource all of my sense making to everybody. It's like, as soon as I get something right, so thank you. Like, thank you for informing me about this thing. Now I know all of this shit and I'm even better. So criticism becomes a, an asset then as opposed to a slight.

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I think it's sort of in a way why Rogan is so successful too. Cause he'll just, he just wants to learn. He's not biased in what, in how he goes about it. He's not having people on for views. He's not really doing anything of that nature. He just is highly interested in something and wants to learn more, thinks his audience would benefit from it as well potentially. Has that person on and just creates like this bank of just vast knowledge that is invaluable. And he's always open to correcting himself, even like self deprecating at times. He's like, I'm an idiot, don't listen to me.

• 1:12:45Speaker 00

  But he's like highly educated and become extremely, the scope of his knowledge is just insane, given the amount of people he hosts. And yeah, it's like one of the coolest things.

• 1:12:54Chris Williamson?

  It's impossible not to, man. Like even whatever 550, 600 episodes, whatever this will be.

• 1:13:02Chris Williamson?

  Just sheer time and attention of being around smart, interesting people. You end up, even if you only take 1% of what you've heard from someone, you end up with like so many. I was at a Thanksgiving dinner with a mental performance coach for a professional esports team. And I was like, oh, we're fucking talking. Like me and you, me and you, like everybody else get out of the way. I've got a conversation with this man and we had like an hour and a bit conversation. And there was loads of stuff that it brought back up to do with Michael Gervais, this guy that was Felix Baumgartner. You know, the dude that jumped from space. He had a problem with his, um, he had claustrophobia when he was getting inside of the suit.

• 1:13:45Chris Williamson?

  And they needed to get this Michael guy in to come and like fucking pull the ripcord. Like we need to fix this guy or else we're not going to be able to go ahead with the mission. Thinking about concepts that I've learned from him or Steve Magnus, this guy that wrote another book or like stories that I've heard about Tiger Woods or Kobe Bryant or whatever. I'm like, this isn't, this is just me repurposing some shit that somebody else said to me. But this one guy in like what feels like an unbelievably niche industry.

• 1:14:12Chris Williamson?

  You get to have this amazing conversation and you know, that's what the attraction is to shows that I think are diverse is everybody is such a inherently idiosyncratic, varied individual. I don't know many people that are, what do you like? I like ultimate frisbee and that's it. And it's like, no, I like like 20 things, right? I like like sci fi from the eighties and I'm a fan of like modern art and classical music and blah, blah, blah. And because of that, you want to try and reflect that in your content consumption because it feeds all of those different things. And then obviously as a creator, if you get to be the person that's like, who are you going to speak to this week? You go, don't know, whoever I'm interested in, like no barriers. That's, that's what's cool. And then downstream from that, people get to learn it as well.

• 1:14:58Chris Williamson?

  Did you get any good tips for gaming? So I asked- Do you game? I don't, not anymore. I used to, but nowhere near as like, like I was terrible even when I was trying. But the biggest things that he told me were exactly the same things that you've just brought up to do with testosterone. I asked him what the biggest problems that his professional esports athletes face are. For them, sleep and caffeine were, he was like, if I could fix those two things, which are obviously both interlinked as well, he said that would probably be 50% of his job. Define fix for caffeine. Like what does that involve? These kids who have only managed to get themselves onto a professional esports team by grinding, that all they do is grind, right? They perhaps unsurprisingly, like

• 1:15:43Chris Williamson?

  some kid playing Call of Duty at 13, isn't thinking about a structured, periodized training plan, which is what they're going toward now with this mental performance. They're doing like peak weeks, they're having back offs, they're like all this stuff, like mental muscle, the same as the, the physical muscle, similar at least. They're not doing that. So they get there purely through grinding. They're doing it usually after school on a nighttime. So you have inculcated a particular type of training practice, which you then need to say, okay, now it's time to be an adult and or a professional. Please, I want you to get up at 7am. I want you to do these things. A lot of the guys also stream on Twitch or have other side hustles that involve or that have incentives for them to create

• 1:16:28Chris Williamson?

  more content than perhaps is optimal for their training. And-

• 1:16:33Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's a vicious feedback mechanism. These kids are sinking 300, 400 milligram caffeine drinks consistently throughout the day to keep themselves going. That means their diet's not dialed in because they're constantly suppressing their appetite as they're going through this shit. And then they're staying up late, they're getting, they're not getting any sunlight, very little movement. And he's now trying to fix these problems. An interesting difference is if you look at a normal sport, right? Let's say like in American football, which has its problems, CTE and blah, blah. But like for the most part, the training diet regimen and game practice regimen that you go through is actually making you a fitter human.

• 1:17:12Chris Williamson?

  Like you're outside, you have community, you are lifting things, moving things, cardio's getting work out. You're eating whole foods, you're blah, blah, blah, blah, like everything's dialed, right?

• 1:17:21Speaker 00

  The two most unhealthy sports, esports and bodybuilding.

• 1:17:26Chris Williamson?

  Good point. Well, I mean, talk to me about that. Talk to me about the, uh, the price that people are paying to do modern bodybuilding now, because there was a period where, um.

• 1:17:36Speaker 00

  If it's natural, it could be healthy, by the way. That's not to say, yeah, overwhelmingly.

• 1:17:41Chris Williamson?

  Non-natural, non-tested federations of bodybuilding. What is your guess or knowledge even about the sort of health impacts that these guys are having in order to achieve at the absolute top level?

• 1:17:55Speaker 00

  Like, it's hard to quantify, but in general, I would say if you are pushing the envelope full tilt in the open bodybuilding division, you would be lucky to make it past 45 years old. If you were doing full tilt bodybuilding the entire time.

• 1:18:14Chris Williamson?

  You mean like you'd be dead at 45?

• 1:18:16Speaker 00

  Potentially, yeah. Like if you were going hard from like teenage hood to 45, blasting every single off season, weighing up to 300 pounds, you know, cutting down to, you know, 260, 270, stand on stage, you know, sometimes less, it depended on, depends on the height of the guy, whatever. I think the top guys at the sport, like I would be impressed if they came out at 45 years old, retired and were like still lived a normal duration of life.

• 1:18:44Chris Williamson?

  And is that common to if you have the right genetics and you get picked up and you start doing junior shows as soon as someone hits eighteen nineteen twenty twenty one is that the sort of beginning of their use of steroids?

• 1:18:56Speaker 00

  Uh, in general, a lot of guys will realize quite quickly that everyone they're competing against even as low as the entry level shows are using shit and then they feel compelled to do so as well because to be competitive among those guys it's just like a necessary evil unfortunately there depending on your genetics you might be able to get somewhat far but once you get to the pro ranks like you're not gonna win top shows at all if you're natural it's just impossible.

• 1:19:27Chris Williamson?

  So let's say that someone hasn't dropped dead at forty five I'm gonna guess in terms of health health outcomes of being able to live a normal life which isn't assisted with a ton of drugs on the outside is that a risk as well?

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, so and let me sort of circle back to the the dying at forty five thing that's like the war if somebody is full tilt maintaining these high body weights perpetually and doing it for you know ten twenty years.

• 1:19:53Chris Williamson?

  And probably predisposed.

• 1:19:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, like some of these some guys will drop in their twenties when they're in this uh in pro bodybuilding.

• 1:20:00Chris Williamson?

  Talking about uh Boston Lloyd last night.

• 1:20:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, obviously people will use him as a outlier because his use of drugs was so extreme and just such uh um he often would neglect even getting diagnostics to assess things and he just I don't know like again I don't have all the insight on exactly what he was doing or not doing but it seemed you know it was a lot of uh some mental issues around the the compulsion to take certain things that he knew was probably unhealthy but anyway the bodybuilders that are trying to live the lifestyle though and are eating copious amounts of foods taking the drugs they need to maintain the high body weights but it's just it's just unhealthy in general like there's nothing fitness or health conducive

• 1:20:47Speaker 00

  about it at the end of the day.

• 1:20:49Chris Williamson?

  That and esports too dangerous.

• 1:20:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, obviously magnitude is different in terms of danger but I mean like one is uh. Yeah, physically and mentally pretty problematic. And then the esports thing, you know, it was just the second thing I could think of underneath that.

• 1:21:05Chris Williamson?

  Makes sense to me, man. Talking-

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  There's obviously worse sports. Like, obviously, people are gonna be like, what about football? People crashing into each other with their helmets on and stuff. UFC, like, obviously, there are things worse. It was just a quick remark.

• 1:21:15Chris Williamson?

  But I think in terms of the, um, like, the byproduct of simply preparing for the sport, it's pretty difficult to say that there's anything which is, which gives you worse health outcomes. I'll be interested to know.

• 1:21:27Speaker 00

  See, the act of actually preparing is not necessarily unhealthy when you are in the middle of offseason, you're training hard, you're doing, hopefully, a decent, getting a decent step count still, eating your macro and micronutrients, but it's just when you get to the, the super physiological range of muscle tissue that your body's supposed to hold and it's literally fighting back against you to try and not hold as much size, using drugs that your body was never meant to process at the amounts you're injecting into yourself, but you're bypassing all the regulating feedback systems, such as hamming yourself with super physiological amounts. Um, like, it's just, anything above that threshold, you are getting into escalating risk territory.

• 1:22:09Speaker 00

  And like, obviously, the natural bodybuilding in itself, other than the extreme weight cutting and water depletion potentially, the act of natural bodybuilding is not unhealthy. Like, it's a very healthy thing, and I don't think the, the general bodybuilding shouldn't dissuade people because it's unhealthy. It's just the drug use, the excessive body weights, and the excessive eating, they have to do to achieve those body weights with the drug use that is the most problematic.

• 1:22:33Chris Williamson?

  So you're saying that there is a, a ceiling to muscle carrying capacity that bodies have, and that you start to bounce off a particular limiter? Because I've always thought, like, why is it that you don't have bigger variance in how particular bodybuilders at the absolute top look on stage? Like, why don't you have people that are- Another fifty pounds bigger than everybody else.

• 1:23:00Speaker 00

  There sort of is. Some people, like there are, have you ever seen Big Rami?

• 1:23:04Chris Williamson?

  I have, yeah.

• 1:23:05Speaker 00

  He could be classified as a tier above.

• 1:23:08Chris Williamson?

  And is that with somebody like that, he's maybe got like a, what, like a higher carrying capacity? His body's tolerance for being able to not destroy muscle is greater than everybody else's, maybe?

• 1:23:20Speaker 00

  Uh, it depends, but there's definitely, like, at the end of the day, it's a genetic thing. Cause there's no way he's necessarily working harder than a guy who's coming in 10th place. Maybe, maybe is, but there are a lot of guys I know who work their fucking asses off and will never beat him. Even if they probably work harder, I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, but just in general, there are certain people, no matter what they do or how much drugs they take, they will never beat him. Even if they double his drug dose, it's just the genetic predisposition. It could be more muscle fiber content from when he was developing as a, like literally in the womb. Like that, some of that stuff you can't really compensate for just with more drugs. Cause you only have so much infrastructure to build off of and induce hypertrophy in.

• 1:24:02Speaker 00

  And so many muscle cells that you can then try and do things with. And if you don't have that infrastructure to get to the big Rami size, like it's just not gonna happen. But this is like such a hyper outlier scenario anyways, like no one, at the end of the day, the takeaway for the average person who can, you know, relate to this. Cause we're not bodybuilders, the people watching probably aren't, you know, top tier bodybuilders. So, um, I try to keep the, the context of this more relatable for the, the average person. Like ultimately drugs at super physiologic, super physiological doses, there's no situation in which it is, uh, you're not gonna have some trade off for its use essentially. There's always a give and take when it comes to PEDs.

• 1:24:45Chris Williamson?

  Talking about bro science, what's your thoughts on nofap?

• 1:24:48Speaker 00

  Uh, these go viral always, eh? The no-fap conversations. I think that it is, it depends what you are doing it for. Are you doing it because you've been told by, I don't know, some like incel forum? That this is like what you gotta do? Or are you doing it for a dopamine detox thing? Are you doing it like, in what context? Just in general, what do I think about it? Yeah. And what are the contexts in which you think it's got some efficacy? And which are the ones that you think is pie in the sky? I think there are a lot of people who are sedentary hermits that basically never leave their house and use outlets like pornography to achieve that dopamine hit that is otherwise a lower barrier to entry

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  way of achieving that smashing the dopamine button. There's a lot higher effort to go find a woman, you know, go on a date with her. Uh, you know, attract her, get her into your bed, you know, have sexual intercourse and actually put energy expenditure into that activity as well. It's very easy to sit at your computer that you're already at, open up the browser and smash the dopamine button. So a lot of people just, it's almost like a weirdly paralleled version of those rat studies where they just wired their brains and then give them the opportunity to smash this, this dopamine button essentially. And they always choose to smash it over and over again. It's like, that is very much paralleled, I think, in a lot of, um, men nowadays.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  Cause it's just such a ease of access now that there is nothing to dissuade them from doing it and not having the, I don't know, the willpower or the even wants to try and avoid it to go seek, you know, a higher quality of life than might otherwise involve companionship or whatever it is, they very much will take the easy route. And, you know, it still achieves the same dopamine hit to them. So for them, it's there, there's wired to be, you know, for them, I think no-fap could be useful because at some point your biological urges will be like, get the fuck out there and have sex. Because you're motivated so much just by frustration. Yeah, like the apathy and the complacency that you have after busting a nut.

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  It's just like, you just don't really care about anything, you know? Like why, like, why am I need to go find a woman to be with when I'm satisfied and I just feel fine, you know, I'm just chilling here. I don't need to do that.

• 1:27:10Chris Williamson?

  So that's where it would be useful. Was it not useful?

• 1:27:14Speaker 00

  I think it's useful in individuals who it has actually had a detriment to their quality of life from a relationship standpoint, uh, social interaction standpoint. Some people end up hindering their relationship quality with their girlfriend too, because they're so porn addicted. They end up, you know, over masturbating and then exposing themselves to stimuli that otherwise makes them relatively unresponsive in an actual real life setting with a woman. Like there are many scenarios in which I think no fap or more specifically no porn, potentially coupled with some degree of no fap is worthwhile. I think these get conflated a lot is the no fap, no porn thing. Like a lot of people just say no fap, but in reality, a lot of it is problematic with the compounding effect of the pornography exposure. Cause if you're just, if you're just like thinking about your girlfriend,

• 1:27:59Speaker 00

  you bust a nut because you haven't seen her in, you know, a while. I don't think that's bad necessarily. What else are you gonna do? You know? So it's the pornography and like tying that, that the dopamine hit to that activity that is overly problematic. And then the no fap, if it gets, if it's excessive fapping where it's hindering your drive to go do things in life.

• 1:28:21Chris Williamson?

  Pathological fapping.

• 1:28:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Like at that point, when you can actually sit down and objectively look at yourself and say, this is impeding my ability to either get high quality relationships, maintain them in some capacity, or it's not leading to what I feel to be a high quality of life in general. Like at that point, I think no fap is absolutely retiring. I think there's definitely a, a lower ceiling for where it's justified to do no porn versus I think no fap like not, I, I don't necessarily think no fap needs to even be in the same conversation as no porn always, which it often is. People just assume it to be one and the same.

• 1:28:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. It's got a branding. No porn's got a branding problem because it's not as catchy.

• 1:29:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:03Chris Williamson?

  No fap's quite catchy.

• 1:29:04Speaker 00

  And I don't think, even with porn, I don't think it has zero place. Like I think there are some scenarios in which, you know, it'd be great. Maybe it excites your sex life. Who knows? It's just a matter of like the exposure, like too much or too little, too much of something is always bad in general. So as you would expect, at some point you are crossing the threshold into impeding your quality of life in some capacity.

• 1:29:27Chris Williamson?

  I've read about risks online of going too long without coming for men. Any truth to that at all?

• 1:29:37Speaker 00

  There is this one study I dug into, it was about ejaculation frequency. And there was a pretty clear trend whereby after a week, if you don't bust a nut, you will have a big spike in testosterone. And then thereafter, you end up having this plateau effect where it doesn't stay high. It kind of like dips back down and then plateaus at baseline. So I think there's some sort of biological like rhythm to trying to drive you to do something. And then it's almost like with fasting, if people fast the first few days, you're super hungry. You have these biological urges to go eat and get nutrients. And then your body sort of shifts into like a anti catabolic, more like sustain,

• 1:30:21Speaker 00

  just preserve yourself, hibernation mode. And I think that very much applies to ejaculation and sexual activity too. If you go too long without it, your body goes into a state of like seemingly adjusting to no sexual activity to some extent.

• 1:30:35Chris Williamson?

  I am no longer a reproductive being.

• 1:30:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Chris Williamson?

  Like I am, maybe I'm ancestrally, I am out on a hunt or I'm lost somewhere or I'm at war or something and I need to just not be too concerned about this. So with that, if that was the case, and if this study was to be believed, and there's probably other factors and blah, blah. But that would suggest that around about a weekly to fortnightly cadence of either having sex or fapping.

• 1:31:01Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Chris Williamson?

  Would actually be an advantage because I'm going to guess you only get this spike once. It's not like if you weren't to bust a nut again for the remainder of that month, you're not going to get weekly spikes each time. You get one and then it plateaus. So.

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  Repeat the cycle if you ejaculate at one weekend, then you reset the clock every time.

• 1:31:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. It's again, like I don't necessarily, this would be like a wild biohack to try and just recommend. And I don't necessarily like, make sure you only bust once a week, not saying that.

• 1:31:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Speaker 00

  It's just if you were somebody who was to actually follow like what happens biologically that seems to be in line with what happens. And a lot of people on that do know FAP, they will also find that it's extremely difficult at the beginning. And then after a while, it's like, oh, it's not that bad anymore.

• 1:31:47Chris Williamson?

  Is that maybe something that you actually want to be adapted for?

• 1:31:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:51Chris Williamson?

  Is that actually something that you have so interesting?

• 1:31:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, do you want to be in a state of, for example, perpetual fasting where you just don't desire nutrients? Like, maybe if you're a bear who's hibernating, like, I don't know, but.

• 1:32:04Chris Williamson?

  Well, I was talking to Hamza, who is kind of my window into the younger guys' personal development world. And he was saying that there's a lot of guys that he knows who have attached their sense of self-worth to the number of days since they last fapped.

• 1:32:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, there's definitely something to be said about the feeling like you're working towards something and achieving something and have power over your your urges, like you have a control over your body because you definitely feel like after you break a no fap streak because you succumb to the urges, you feel like a piece of shit, even though it felt good for a second. God damn it, I just, I just fucked up. And the people who are able to sustain and, you know, work past that, there's very much like a an achievement of, oh, I've gone 27 days without fapping or busting a nut. I'm, you know, this is fantastic. I have, what's Jerry Seinfeld say or George, it's like power over my domain or something, or I control my domain.

• 1:33:02Speaker 00

  I forget what they said, but it's definitely something to be said about the

• 1:33:08Speaker 00

  I don't know, restraining, definitely giving guys a sense of reward for an achievement of control of self, not giving in to urges. The same way you would not give into, I don't know, craving sugar or something and you feel good about it. I think some guys do would expectedly tie their self-worth, you know, I don't need sex, I don't go, I can go this long without even feeling like I need, and it could sometimes extend into a problematic thing where it's like, I don't even need a woman, like fuck.

• 1:33:36Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:37Speaker 00

  Fuck the other gender. Like, I don't, I don't even need to have a companion because I'm like that much of a lone wolf who doesn't need to fap. I don't need a woman.

• 1:33:44Chris Williamson?

  Mode for the rest of my life.

• 1:33:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:45Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think that is the goal-seeking mechanism kind of hijacked by something. Because you can hijack it with pretty much anything, right? You know, people, I'm sure that serial killers get a good amount of reward when they finally find somebody and do what it is that they're going to do to them and dispose of the body. And maybe I'm going to get caught and I don't, and you go, well, like. He's seeking a goal. He's going after something. We wouldn't necessarily say that it's something that's adaptive or good for him to do. The same thing goes for the person that feels like they need to use porn in order to satiate themselves or like they get the reward from that. We can find goal-seeking behavior in pretty much anything. It's about planning in advance what that behavior is going to be.

• 1:34:28Chris Williamson?

  And do I actually want to have this as something which gets programmed in?

• 1:34:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:34Chris Williamson?

  One of the concerns that's happening a lot at the moment is around guys' confidence with girls. And, you know, if you can get fake satisfaction or a virtual satisfaction from the comfort of your own home, you know, going out and meeting women is like, for a nervous individual or someone that isn't necessarily compelled to do it or doesn't want to do it or whatever, there is a get out of jail free card there. The more dates side of your channel was something that you spent a good bit of time with. What did you learn about confidence for guys around girls? Like if there was someone that you were speaking to, that was a friend or whatever, that was like, I'm just really super unconfident with girls.

• 1:35:15Chris Williamson?

  Is there any interesting reframes or insights that you relied on when you were starting to build your confidence? Where you think like, that actually helped, like that was a really good, useful framing for me to think about interacting with women?

• 1:35:29Speaker 00

  Like for me, it was more about, I was not happy with where I was at in my life with the, with my dating life and lack of it entirely essentially. So typically guys who are underachieving in some area, if you, I guess, are wired a certain way, you may feel overly motivated to compensate for that in some way, which could lead to you almost overachieving in that area to feel like you've reached the baseline that somebody else who has just had it from, I don't know, like a normal transition into high school or whatever and had it, you know, silver platter to them or something. Cause some guys, they're just, you know, will just get girls, you know, naturally.

• 1:36:10Speaker 00

  Or they're naturally charismatic and they don't have to like develop whatsoever. Just turning off this alarm for the Rogan comment.

• 1:36:20Speaker 00

  But yeah, so for me, it was more so like, can I foresee this as my life in the future? And am I satisfied with it? And at the time, it was not something that I was happy with and not something I felt like, oh, in 10 years, is this something that is sustainable? And that I feel is something that I could ever be happy with? No, it wasn't. So I have to make a change because this is just unacceptable for me. And at that point, I was just pushing myself massively out of my comfort zone. Like, it was not a-

• 1:36:48Chris Williamson?

  What did that look like?

• 1:36:49Speaker 00

  Like, literally going around my campus in between classes and just, you know, talking to girls that I thought were attractive and just striking up conversations, essentially.

• 1:36:59Chris Williamson?

  And the reason for that is to overcome approach anxiety fear?

• 1:37:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So it was, uh, and this was like before Tinder and stuff really took off. So there was a very, very, like, it was necessary to actually talk to people in real life still. And maybe that's, you know, that has shifted a little bit in recent times. And maybe it's more important to have like a high level social media following and, you know, leverage the, the DMs game and stuff. But, um, I do think it's very important and impactful on communication skills, your ability to articulate yourself, the ability to have high level, even like business presentations, job interviews, to be able to, if you can go up to a, some woman who you find attractive, that's sitting there that you've never met before and just strike up a conversation, have like a reasonable dialogue, you know, get her number, go on a date. Like, you could pretty much crush anything that has to do with, you know,

• 1:37:47Speaker 00

  talking to a, a bro or to a, you know, a potential employer. Like, oftentimes I find guys are most scared of somebody they find that they're trying to get something from maybe, or they otherwise are afraid of rejection.

• 1:38:00Chris Williamson?

  Like admirable individuals.

• 1:38:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, it's hard to, it's hard to put into words, but if you can, oftentimes, if you walk up to somebody you deem to be extremely attractive and you otherwise were terrified to talk to, and that becomes like a, a nothing thing where you have no anxiety about it and you can just smoothly on a whim, walk up to a girl and have a conversation and introduce yourself and have a reasonable dialogue, you can very much-

• 1:38:26Speaker 00

  Throw yourself into a lot of social situations that otherwise seemed overwhelming prior.

• 1:38:30Chris Williamson?

  How did you get over the approach anxiety beyond just it being reps? And this goes for girls as well, like girls also kind of need to get over their own approach anxiety in a post me too world. All of the dating advice that they used to get, which was why men love bitches and treat him like you don't like him. If girls roll forward with that same like, you know, aloof style. Guys are going to take no as fuck. No, not uh. Maybe I need you to try a little bit harder and be a bit more flirty with me or something like that's the old world and you know, post 2010s, they don't get to do that anymore. Was there anything that you relied on like you're looking at the person that you're going to go and speak to and there's a ringing in your ears and your heart rates at 120 and you're like sweating.

• 1:39:16Chris Williamson?

  What got you over the hill of being able to begin doing that?

• 1:39:20Speaker 00

  Um, for me, it was seeing people that I found to be relatable. Able to get over it themselves. So I was inspired by certain people that I saw who had weren't happy with their lives also be able to get over that and become socially fluent, have no anxiety, walk up on a whim to anybody they please, et cetera. And strike up what I feel to be high enough level conversations that a woman is even impressed you're coming up to her. Depending on the scenario, because it depends on, you know, if you're good looking, you're not creepy. If you're not good looking, then you are like, there's a whole fucking debate about that whole thing. Wait, at the end of the day, all you can do is maximize your self value through all of these different vectors

• 1:40:04Speaker 00

  of gym, lifestyle, et cetera. But ultimately the social components is very controllable and something you can develop. And yeah, it sort of is a reps on reps thing, unfortunately, to some extent. And I think just jumping into the fire or, you know, whatever saying you wanna, you know, taking the plunge, whatever. It often is just the necessary thing that needs to be done to be able to develop socially. And I don't know. If you need somebody to hold your hand to do it, I don't necessarily know that. You might be just giving yourself an excuse like at the end of the day, you're not happy with your life. So are you going to change it or you're not like you have to take some fucking action at the end of the day. So for me, it was very motivating. I saw a couple of guys

• 1:40:45Speaker 00

  that were capable of doing it. And I suppose that gave me a bit more inspiration than maybe I would have otherwise had from baseline. But at the end of the day, I didn't have somebody walk up with me to the first girl I talked to, I still had to go up to her and say, hi, my name is Derek. What's yours? But you're cute. I want to come talk to you, etc. Whatever it was, like, once you get your foot in the door and say something that shows your intent very clearly, you introduce yourself, you then put out the premise that, you know, I'm interested in you. Are you open to, you know, a conversation or not? And you either succeed or you don't. And oftentimes you won't, but you'll never be able to figure out if it was a successful thing or not, if you don't just try and talk to people. And that even goes to talking to dudes, like, if you want to make a friend or whatever,

• 1:41:28Speaker 00

  or talk to a guy at the gym, ask for a spot, like, whatever it is, like, you have to have some balls to be able to talk to humans outside of in a online, you know, gaming context or whatever.

• 1:41:39Chris Williamson?

  I wonder whether, in the same way as porn has given people a get out of jail free card for fake signals of fitness and like reproductive satisfaction, if online dating has done the same thing for people not needing to develop.

• 1:41:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, at the end of the day, with online dating, you still have to meet up with the girl and talk to her. So you could argue that it's just a more time efficient way to do it. And I'm not, I'm not debating that. I think it is highly useful. The problem is with online dating is you very much can't convey your humor as well often, or your tonality, or certain things that might otherwise set you apart in person. So I'm not saying that you shouldn't rely on just online dating, because a lot of guys will just crush it if they're have good enough pictures and they have a good enough profile, but mostly pictures, like, they'll crush it. But a lot of guys won't. Like, I don't know if you've seen the statistics on Tinder success rates of men versus women. It's like, I don't know what it is now, but it's probably like 5% of men get 90 to 95% of the girls or something.

• 1:42:36Speaker 00

  And it's like, well, then what do you do? Are you just fucked? Do you just do nothing? Like, obviously, you need to, if you want some level of, I don't know, like, a high quality relationship in your life, you have to take some action, some capacity. And I don't think the excuse is, well, it's just not going to happen because Tinder didn't work out. Like, figure it out.

• 1:42:54Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I like it. I really appreciate you, man. Thank you for coming and seeing me. What have you got coming up next? Is there anything cool that people should expect from you?

• 1:43:01Speaker 00

  I'm doing a pod with Zach Tellander, which is gonna be cool. We can do that right after this. I have a couple other podcasts coming up that hopefully you guys will find interesting or useful in some capacity. They might vary in, I don't know, how information tense they are or like what the style is. I'm trying to like get out of my comforts out a little bit and do some more different styles of podcasts that I haven't done before. So hopefully that is well received and but in general, you know, you can find me on YouTube, More Plates More Dates, or on social media and any of those, that handle on any of the social media platforms.

• 1:43:33Chris Williamson?

  Thanks, man. I appreciate you.

• 1:43:34Speaker 00

  Right on. You as well. Thanks, man.

• 1:43:36Speaker 02

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