Stereotypes In The Fitness Industry - Zack Telander | Modern Wisdom Podcast 168

Zack Telander is a weightlifter, coach & YouTuber. I'm joined by Coach ZT himself today for a chilled out discussion where we hit all the big topics, like... Why are people on the internet such dicks? Why do the goths from school become powerlifters? What is the background to Zack's YouTube journey? How is Corona affecting the world of fitness? Why do girls wear shorts for CrossFit which their mum wouldn't let them out of the house in? And much more... Sponsor: Get the world’s best gym equipment delivered to your door from Eleiko. Head to - https://shop.eleiko.com (enter code MW15 for 15% off everything!) Extra Stuff: Subscribe to Zack's YouTube Channel -https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC94_fvLx7abZgs9LIkM7jxw Get Zack's Program for $1 - https://www.patreon.com/zacktelander Follow Zack on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/coach_zt Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #zacktelander #weightlifting #fitness - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Zack Telander?

  For a weightlifter, if they don't snatch and clean and jerk well, well, their identity is now missing. So they're going to snatch and clean and jerk well, and they're going to do whatever it takes to do that. Crossfitters can get theirs in the gym in so many different ways.

• 0:12Chris Williamson?

  There's more places to hide as a crossfitter.

• 0:15Zack Telander?

  Yeah, but when you're taking your shirt off and you're wearing your hot pants, you can't hide, right? And so for them, it's like, I'm gonna get my nutrition locked in. I'm not gonna go party on the weekends. I am going to get enough sleep, you know? There's the recovery aspect that I really do feel like crossfitters work on really, really hard compared to powerlifters or maybe, maybe weightlifters.

• 0:42Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about what your favorite pre-workout drink is. What's your pre-workout of choice?

• 0:48Zack Telander?

  Uh, I, I love caffeine. So like, um, you know, there's, uh, do you know who Omar Isaf is?

• 0:57Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 0:58Zack Telander?

  He's a, he's a, he's kind of, he's a YouTuber. Um, he actually does have a lot of good knowledge around, um, fitness and, you know, strength and culture and stuff like that. And, uh, his product is called Aroboros or Aroboros. Um, and it's, it's really like clean. It's, there's only like five ingredients, you know, it's like caffeine, creatine, uh, beta alanine, like the five core ingredients to a pre-workout and it's only 200 milligrams of caffeine. I usually try to take that half hour before training.

• 1:35Zack Telander?

  Um, and then I, I like to have a relatively kind of empty stomach before I take my pre-workout. So I, sometimes I will wake up, um, and you know, I might have like, I, I always drink like a, a green drink, uh, to get my greens in. And then I might just like take my pre-workout and go to the gym, like without anything in my stomach. But if I'm going to train a little bit later, like say, like two, three, four PM, I'll have, uh, oats or like some sort of carb and then I'll just chill for like two hours and then go. I will never

• 2:18Zack Telander?

  really, sometimes I guess I'll have like scrambled eggs too, cause like, For me, it's really hard to get all of my protein in per day. So if I'm not eating protein for, you know, four of the hours of the day or five hours a day, and then I go to the gym and I come back. Now I'm in this huge kind of hole where I have to gain back all the protein.

• 2:41Chris Williamson?

  It's a never ending treadmill of trying to eat it. Everyone that's listening that's got a diet that requires them to have high volumes of protein in mine at the moment. My calories are like, I think 210, 210 grams of protein per day, which isn't like ridiculous, but I'd say it's like moderate, moderate high for someone who's like in 80 kilos range. And um, fuck man, like you're right. If you get to 2pm and you've not had any protein yet, like that's gonna be the remainder of the day is gonna suck bad.

• 3:08Zack Telander?

  Yeah, I mean, I do like to train an empty stomach, ideal world, you know, like um, or having a big meal and then chilling, letting it all digest and then going to the gym. I'm not a believer in like eating a pre-workout meal. I don't like, I don't think that that's, I think that's kind of like bro sciency type stuff. And then, yeah, I just do caffeine and then after, you know, I'm, I have to, you know, sometimes I want to get 250 to 270 grams of protein.

• 3:38Zack Telander?

  Because of my body weight and like, I have to have two or three shakes, you know, a day just because I can't, I don't like eating that much like chicken breast and, and meat. But I do actually notice the difference on high protein, like I really, really do.

• 3:57Zack Telander?

  Now, just physique wise, like I don't, I don't, and that's something that I don't really care too much about, but it's nice to have, you know, in, as a weightlifter. Your, you know, your primary focus is to be healthy and in shape so that you can perform what you need to perform. It's not about aesthetics.

• 4:20Zack Telander?

  But I know that, that if your aesthetics are right, there's a chance that your body composition is right and therefore you're maximizing your weight class. Or if that makes sense, you know, if you, you have too much body fat, it's too much weight for your weight class that is not usable. And so something I've noticed on like a very high protein diet is that I can be a little bit more sloppy.

• 4:49Zack Telander?

  If that makes sense in, in, you know, in the way that I eat. But that's a big stipulation. That's a big thing to do to try to get enough protein. Because if you want to get enough protein and eat poorly, it's not going to happen. You know, if you want to eat enough protein and go to, you know, McDonald's or Taco Bell, like, you're going to get really fat or whatever, but eat enough protein, then you don't have to count your macros as hard or be as diligent.

• 5:20Chris Williamson?

  Well, there's, there's no, there's no cheat meal that's high in protein. No one's like, oh, I'm, I'm really.

• 5:25Zack Telander?

  You know what? Actually, uh, one that's really surprising and like, this is one of my things about junk food and cheat meals is like, I don't really like them unless they have high protein. And at that point, they end up having super high calories, if that makes sense.

• 5:44Chris Williamson?

  What like?

• 5:45Zack Telander?

  So like, uh, chicken wings.

• 5:47Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 5:48Zack Telander?

  Chicken wings, actually, as far as like a cheat meal goes, they're, the macros are fantastic. High in protein, relatively low in calorie compared to, you know, pizza. Like pizza legitimately has nothing in it, but calories and fat. So those two being cheat meals are not the same, in the same ballpark.

• 6:12Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 6:13Zack Telander?

  In my opinion.

• 6:13Chris Williamson?

  But you still get to relinquish your diet, feel like you're not super restricted. And you get like that, that you tick that box, you tick the, I let my diet go a little bit box. But in one version of the world, you've just put, what, maybe like 800 grams of carbs and another 150 grams of fat. Probably into yourself with a pizza versus like, yeah.

• 6:37Zack Telander?

  I don't know what with, with, uh, with chicken wings, but it's, it's something that, or a burger, right? A burger compared to a pizza. Those should not be in the same ballpark. Pizzas should be closer to ice cream. You know, um, but anyways, the, the, the main point being is that high protein is not easy, um, but it does help a lot. Um, especially for someone like me where I'm constantly worried about my recovery, constantly worried. So like to go in and do a bodybuilding workout, I don't want that to affect my mobility and my shoulders. My hips, knees, ankles, joints that need to be very, very loose and protected.

• 7:20Zack Telander?

  I don't, I don't want to go into the gym and have to do bodybuilding, even though I love it, you know what I mean? So it's nice to be able to do a high protein diet and minimize body fat like that.

• 7:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And also, given two versions of the world, given like one version, Zach makes weight for the competition and hits all of his lifts, gets nine white lights and all that stuff. And in another version of the world, that happens, but with abs. It's like, I'll take the world that has abs.

• 7:48Zack Telander?

  Well, it's, yeah, yeah, yes. Although, you know, it's never been about like lifting well and performing well is always going to trump the way that I look.

• 8:02Zack Telander?

  But there's, there's actually a famous track, a world famous track coach here in College Station, which is where I live, Texas A&M track coach. And he's like, at a certain point, you know, we have to look at body composition because if we're maximizing every bit of an athlete's potential, they need to have as much usable muscle as possible. And if you have extra fat, additional fat, that's, that's space and that's weight, that's added weight to our sport, which is just speed. You know, it's all about who's the fastest, who can maintain the speed the longest, who's, you know, lightest, but also the most powerful. So yes, body composition does matter, but it's a very fine line.

• 8:48Zack Telander?

  I mean, I, again, I never really used to think about, I need protein, I need protein. But it really, really does make a difference when you start to eat like that. It's kind of like very similar to that bodybuilding type of lifestyle, that bro lifestyle.

• 9:04Chris Williamson?

  You have to, there's no one who accidentally falls into a high protein diet either. You know, like no, no one just ends up going back through a year of macros, which they weren't tracking, which they weren't counting, but were tracking and goes, oh, would you look at that? Like it just happens, my byproduct of my diet was 200 grams of protein. It's like, no, you have to go out of your way to force that down in one form.

• 9:29Zack Telander?

  Yeah. I think this suggested for someone who's 80 kilos is what, 140? Protein, that's super easy, but you know, we're looking for you if you're, you know, you're trying to build muscle or whatever, you might go all the way up to 250. And so, yeah, it's just not possible.

• 9:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So we've touched on a number of different categories of strength athletes or endurance athlete, whatever it is. I thought that it might be fun today for me and you to go through some of the stereotypes of different lifters and different athletes that we see in the gym or that we see online and stuff like that. So to hold my hands up for the different teams that I'm on, I probably came into the world as a bro lifter, actually originally before that a cricketer, which is like British version of baseball, I guess.

• 10:15Zack Telander?

  Right.

• 10:16Chris Williamson?

  And then bro lifter, bodybuilder, little bit of sort of Muay Thai and boxing and stuff, and then now CrossFit. What's your, what's your heritage in strength and stuff like that?

• 10:31Zack Telander?

  Yeah, it was for football, for American football. Was the first time I was introduced to the weight room, I was about 13 or 14. And it was just all bro stuff. And then when, when I was actually on a program, we would do big compound movement, squats, bench, pull-ups. You know, it was actually interesting. I couldn't, I could probably do like maybe one or two pull-ups when I graduated high school. So I was 18 years old. I was just so long and, you know.

• 11:03Chris Williamson?

  Limmy.

• 11:04Zack Telander?

  Yeah, just very limy. And then I got to college and I was playing lacrosse at the university, University of Vermont. And we had a very structured weightlifting program, or like weight program. And, you know, we would go four times a week. And that's where, like, my strength coach was basically like, oh, you can't do a pull-up, you're gonna do them every day, you know, every day, at least when you come in here, when you're fresh, just try to get, you know, whatever you can. And by the end of that, I think I got like 15. And I, that was the biggest difference in like my physique that I've ever noticed,

• 11:45Zack Telander?

  outside of actually my legs from squatting, too. We would squat two, three times a week, and that was noticeable as well. So that was my big exposure to training. And then when I graduated college, I felt that I still had a lot of.

• 12:01Zack Telander?

  I still had a lot of ability remaining, so you know, I didn't know how to, lacrosse was done for me, um, so like pretty much all sports, like official sports that I used to partake in, like American football, basketball, lacrosse, like, and you know, I could have done like house leagues or things like that. But um, I wanted to get, I wanted to stay very intense and train really hard. And I actually, I, I saw an article, it might've been on like Men's Journal or something, and it was on, uh, Rich Froning. Uh, you know, it might, it might not have even been on Rich Froning, but it was about Murph, the workout Murph, and, uh, which is a, you know,

• 12:46Zack Telander?

  a staple in CrossFit these days. Um, and I remember being like, wow, that's, what a weird way of thinking of training, you know? Here's a bunch of reps, do them as fast as you can. Um, and there are, there are things that like, you know, pushups, pullups, squats, those are things that I've only ever done in sets of 10 and, uh, you know, with rest and on a program. And I was like, that sounds really, really cool. So I went into a gym, a CrossFit gym, uh, and then I fell in love with it there. And then, um, I got really, just more and more sucked into it. I wanted to

• 13:26Zack Telander?

  coach more people. I wanted to help out. So I got my level one. Uh, and then I got my USA Weightlifting, uh, certification, so USA W's, uh, level one certification. And then I was lucky enough to get a, a full-time coaching job, um, as a CrossFitter, or as a CrossFit coach, which in, in America, or anywhere really, full-time, like getting a wage to be a CrossFit coach is, is a pretty good deal. And, um, I think a lot of my development as a coach to that job. Uh,

• 14:05Zack Telander?

  but then after a while, I kind of, I didn't want to work with kind of your average Joes anymore. And that wasn't-

• 14:15Zack Telander?

  The main reasoning behind that was I was tired of of people, teaching people and giving my all, teaching them how to snatch and clean and jerk and do all these movements to have them just want to look better. You know, I really wanted performance. And so what I did was I went back to the collegiate strength and conditioning field. I was an intern for free, which is crazy. That's one of the things that you have to do when you want to be a strength coach, at least in America, is that you have to intern. And that means it's pretty much a volunteer position.

• 14:49Zack Telander?

  I was doing that for seven or eight months. And then I got another job in Texas A&M, which is here in College Station. And since then, since that point, I've fallen back into weightlifting. Throughout all of that, that whole thing where I graduated college to now, I've been weightlifting in and out of being involved in CrossFit. And I'd say the last two and a half, three years have been like pure weightlifting. But I have, you know, I've been coaching weightlifting, I've been coaching the lifts, I've been competing in weightlifting since 2013. So that's kind of the broad picture of my training.

• 15:32Chris Williamson?

  Thirty thousand foot view of your athletic background. It's so funny about the, when you want to go and do something that is focused on finding the best people or getting to the, toward the top or the peak of people's performance, I'm reminded of Ryan Holiday. Do you know how he started his writing career out? So he went and assisted Robert Greene, five times New York Times bestselling author, Mastery, Forty Eight Laws of Power, all that stuff, and previous Modern Wisdom guest. Went and assisted him for free as a research, a research assistant. And you know, you've got Robert Greene writing these huge books, drawing on 3,000 years worth of history. And Ryan, I need to find out about where Julius Caesar's this, this thing happened.

• 16:17Chris Williamson?

  Can you fuck off to the library and go and sort it for me? And he just did that. But then you get coming out the other side of that, you get this ridiculous experience. And that presumably is the same for you, getting to work at such an incredible level. And then you can distill that back down.

• 16:32Zack Telander?

  Yeah, like, working at collegiate strength and conditioning, I know that you Like there, I'm sure there's a lot of Americans that listen, but if you're, you know, European or elsewhere in the world, like it is a big, big deal in America, especially at a place like Texas A&M, which is a 60,000 student university, 60,000 students undergrad, like that's the, the level and the amount of money that comes into this, to, to sporting here is like, it's something you would compare to a, a major football club in the English Premier League. Like it's, it's seriously that intense. Our stadium right over there,

• 17:12Zack Telander?

  it houses 100, 110,000 fans. So when you go see one of those games.

• 17:19Chris Williamson?

  That is insane.

• 17:20Zack Telander?

  Yeah. So a lot of people want to be strength coaches because they have, there are these, these really prominent programs. And so it's a very saturated market, but the process is, you know, you have to be an intern, you have to build your way up and then hopefully.

• 17:37Chris Williamson?

  Kind of.

• 17:38Zack Telander?

  Yes. And that is for the most part, at least my experience, it was for free.

• 17:46Zack Telander?

  What I did, I, I felt like, you know, I was competing in weightlifting, you know, in and out. And then I, I had like what you would call like a fellowship program at Texas A&M where I was actually being paid and it was kind of nice. Um, once that finished up, I kind of wanted to just take a break and, and focus on weightlifting and, and trying to be a better, and maybe going into private. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. Um, but I knew that the, the lineage, that it seemed very bureaucratic to, to be involved in something like, like that, you know? And I, I feel like I'm maybe more of a creative person than.

• 18:30Zack Telander?

  It just might not have been the best fit for me. Um, and so I remember my next job after that, I, cause I needed to make money was a personal trainer at a Gold's Gym. And it was actually-

• 18:44Chris Williamson?

  I would have loved to have seen that.

• 18:45Zack Telander?

  Yeah, and it was actually, uh, not a bad gig, man. Like, it really was, it was pretty cool. And there was actually some pretty knowledgeable people there. Um, and making good money. And for me, it wasn't a means, it, it, it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna be a Gold's Gym personal trainer for the rest of my life. You know, I'm gonna figure out the next step, but right now it's pretty good. You know, I'm in a cheaper place, a cheaper, uh, cost of living area. Um, a lot of stuff is going good in my life. So someone actually mentioned like, hey, you should check out YouTube for, uh, like, putting your stuff on YouTube.

• 19:25Zack Telander?

  And so I didn't really know what the purpose of YouTube was. Like, I, I literally thought it was just a place where you could like send links to other people. Like, you would just send, you know, and watch. I didn't know that people had channels where they would kind of use it as this social outlet. Uh, it wasn't like a community type thing. And then when this person showed me, like, they showed me Casey Neistat, they showed me, um,

• 19:50Zack Telander?

  some of like the bigger names, like, God, uh, David Dobrik and stuff like that. I was like, wow, this is, this culture is crazy. Like, I, I had no idea, you know, it's like I, I felt like I was blind to it. I just wasn't paying attention or something like that. So I would just consume that content all the time. Then I, I made, uh, some videos around my training for CrossFit. And I remember like, cause I, I, I, when I went to school, I was a film and television studies major and then like a, a business minor. And I remember like being really, really into editing and like,

• 20:31Zack Telander?

  loving film production. That's why I wanted to do it. So when I made these vlogs of my training for CrossFit, it was like, it would take me a long time. I would, I would make these like really serious edits. And then I would put them on YouTube and no one would watch them. And I remember I posted one to a CrossFit page, uh, the CrossFit Reddit page, and some guy was like, listen, you're not that, you're not that good looking. You're not that good at CrossFit, right? And you're not telling us like anything about your story or and you don't have any expertise. And I was like, well, first off, I'm not that bad looking.

• 21:14Zack Telander?

  But no, I, you know, I took that, I was like, kind of like, you know, fuck this guy, he doesn't know anything. But then also I was like, well, that's true. At my videos were all very surface level, just had nothing to them. I think it was because I was trying to cater to what Casey Neistat had already established himself as. You know, people were involved in his story before the content that I saw. People were not involved in my story. People don't know who the fuck I am. So one thing the guy said is like, do you have any expertise? And I said, hell, yeah, I mean, I, I have a lot of expertise in weightlifting. So my next video, I completely revamped. I was like, you know what? I see this issue in the snatch.

• 21:59Zack Telander?

  Uh, and here's how you fix it. Um, here's the issue being played out. And I'll show an example. Here's what it should look like. And here are the drills you can do to fix it. Thank you guys for watching. Boom, send it out. I deleted my other YouTube vlogs. I clicked the link to this, copy, paste it, put it, put it on Reddit. Uh, weightlifting. And they loved it. Everyone in that in, in the Reddit community was like, this is awesome, man. Keep doing it. Um, and so I, I basically was like, okay, I'll do another one next week because I have another idea. And that one did well. And I just repeated that for now, two and a half, three years.

• 22:44Zack Telander?

  And I've got 103,000 subscribers. And it was, it was really interesting how that all played out. It was like, it seemed so intuitive and so natural to just put what you know out there.

• 23:02Zack Telander?

  And if someone likes it somewhere, there's a chance that maybe someone else might like it and it might snowball from there. But you can't give yourself the benefit of the doubt if you try to do something that you're not, or if you try to do what other people are doing.

• 23:16Chris Williamson?

  Man, I've been talking about this a lot recently, which is your weirdness is your superpower. So the unique offering that you have to put out, or that I have to put out, or anybody that's listening has, that is your USP. Because no one, literally no one else on the planet, even a twin brother or a twin sister, has precisely the same mix of life experiences and interests and talent and proclivities and background and story and all the rest of it. No one, nobody else has that. So when you see people that are prepared

• 23:55Chris Williamson?

  to dilute down their unique individual offering, or as you say, kind of perhaps aim for or align themselves with some externalized idea of what they should be doing. Oh, well, this is what the other guys are doing. Maybe I'll just try and do a carbon copy of that. And maybe that is you. If that's your true, like you speaking your truth forward, then great. If you are just like a miniature Casey Neistat, then fucking fun, like, great for you. But if you're not, you're losing out on the opportunity to really break it through. And you hit the nail on the head there. If you find it interesting, you have to presume, like, you're not an alien, I don't think you are, an alien from out of space. You know, like, if you find it interesting, the like, there has to be at

• 24:40Chris Williamson?

  least a couple of other people out there that find it interesting. And therefore, that might roll even further forward. And that's, you know, part of my

• 24:47Zack Telander?

  That was my mindset. And that was actually what has provided me with the most amount of success is that the organic growth from when I started to now has been amazing. You know, I had, at one point, I had 20,000 subscribers and I was getting 20,000 views. It was like

• 25:06Chris Williamson?

  Anyone who's got a YouTube channel, that is, that's stupid.

• 25:09Zack Telander?

  Yeah, because it was, a lot of people weren't subscribing. So I would get a lot of clicks from elsewhere. But it was like, the people who were following me, the people who wanted to listen to me, I was putting it directly at them. And I was not backing down. I was not changing at Um, and it just, it kept working and I, you know, um, I would put in so much goddamn time on these videos and I loved every second of it. I would sit down and edit for forty hours, like, like, straight up, I would do, you know, twelve hours one day and then I would do like six hours the next and it would, it would just be like till like three in the morning. I just didn't care. It was so awesome because then when I got to click upload

• 25:51Zack Telander?

  and I could see people view and comment and talk about it. It was like, man, you know, I'm, I'm actually doing something with my life. Um, and I was not prepared to let that slip at all. And people, when I started it, I was like, yeah, you know, I've got, uh, like a thousand subscribers. People like, oh, that's cool. But it's like, what is that YouTube subscribers? What does that even mean? You know, like my parents were like, okay, well, you brought, you probably should like get a career going.

• 26:17Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's nice. That's nice, Zach.

• 26:20Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And, and, you know, now it's like, okay, when you look at what marketing agencies want, I actually, when I graduated, I got a job in advertising right away. And the value of a hundred and three thousand subscriptions and the value of all of these things of this consumption of your media is so huge. It's so, it, it cannot be understated how valuable that is in today's society. And yet, when people are starting to try and build something of value like that, they're like, hey, you're being an idiot. Go do a real job.

• 27:01Zack Telander?

  Like, how are we still in that realm of people discouraging people from doing creative shit? When the, it's the creative shit that actually provides the most value. Right? I mean, like, like, um, I, I have a video with, uh, three million views on Liu Xiaojun.

• 27:21Chris Williamson?

  Okay, my favorite video of yours, man.

• 27:23Zack Telander?

  Right. And that three million views, like,

• 27:28Zack Telander?

  What cable, what cable television show can knock out 3 million views on just a regular show? They fucking can't. And how much money do they spend to do that?

• 27:37Chris Williamson?

  Man, have you seen, it's very recent, Eric Weinstein on Joe Rogan, the most recent one. Most, most recent one. So he

• 27:44Zack Telander?

  I only like, what I do is I look at the clips, but I liked some of the stuff that

• 27:49Chris Williamson?

  So you may have watched the clip of the bit that I'm about to talk about now, but it's where he talks about traditional media versus mainstream media.

• 27:57Zack Telander?

  No, I haven't seen that. No.

• 27:58Chris Williamson?

  Oh dude, you gotta go find it because you would absolutely love it. So basically, Eric Weinstein, people who don't know who he is, this absolute freak genius polymath guy who is on Rogan all the time, super clever mathematician, managing director at Thiel Capital, like Peter Thiel, PayPal Mathia guy. Anyway, huge penis, massive, massive, massive dick guy. And he is talking to Joe Rogan about the problem of when two different worlds collide. And he's talking about kind of this new world, which is the Joe Rogans, the Zach Telander, the modern wisdoms of the world, kind of the, the subculture of internet stuff, when

• 28:40Chris Williamson?

  it clashes with the older world, the ABC, the NBC, the BBC, the ITV stuff in the UK. And what he says is Rogan brings up this brilliant point where he said, people talk about mainstream media and they use that as a signal that this is the media that has the most credibility. It's the one that has the best experts. It's the one. It's the one. And everything else is like a guy in his bedroom doing a thing, which, you know, I don't have a massive amount of ability to complain about, but, and the argument that gets made by Eric is perfect. And he says, well, hang on a second. Like if you put this podcast out and this podcast gets 5 million

• 29:25Chris Williamson?

  Views.

• 29:25Zack Telander?

  Yeah, I mean, it's simple math.

• 29:27Chris Williamson?

  And five, five million views, not only five million views, but five million views multiplied by probably, I wouldn't like to guess what the average watch time on Rogan's channel is, but it'll be like, probably thirty minutes, maybe more, maybe like forty, forty-five minutes probably or something, some ridiculous. So the watch time, the total watch time.

• 29:44Zack Telander?

  Yeah, that's the real value.

• 29:46Chris Williamson?

  Will be freakish, like the time under tension that people are spending watching. So he's like, well, hang on a second. If I get more watch time on this channel than ABC, NBC, ITV, BBC. Who's mainstream media?

• 30:01Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 30:01Chris Williamson?

  Who is mainstream media now? There's traditional media. Traditional media is that. Mainstream media, I don't think so. And I agree.

• 30:09Zack Telander?

  Right. And when Joe had the epidemiologist on his show, it was about four weeks ago.

• 30:20Zack Telander?

  When the coronavirus scare was beginning. That's where I got all my information. That's where I got everything was the professional epidemiologist who was as clear cut and as dry as it could possibly be. There was zero entertainment value. None of it. There was no editing. It was a guy in a room talking to another guy about what the fuck is happening. That to me was like, oh, finally.

• 30:49Chris Williamson?

  Thank you.

• 30:50Zack Telander?

  Thank you. After this disease or this virus has been out in, in China. And it was, dude, it was going on in January. And I remember people being like, there were some memes being made and then, then it was like, ah, fuck it. You know, it's in Wuhan. No one really cares. You know, like, I remember that we, I had practice, I mean, weightlifting practice. And all of my, my lifters are students at Texas A&M. You know, they're college kids. They weren't even giving a shit. No one gave a shit about this thing. And it was mainly because no one knew anything like you. We could have figured this out, like, we could have just been more informed earlier on.

• 31:34Zack Telander?

  And what was amazing was I still wasn't informed at all. I had a sem- I had two seminars. One of them was gonna be last week in Maine, so I would have had to take out a flight. There's no way.

• 31:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 31:48Zack Telander?

  But when I saw this epidemiologist, or I think it was like a-

• 31:54Chris Williamson?

  Virologist, I think.

• 31:55Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 31:58Zack Telander?

  Yeah, I saw him. It was super clear cut, super dry. It told me exactly what I need to know, what's probably gonna happen, you know?

• 32:06Chris Williamson?

  We fucked.

• 32:06Zack Telander?

  Why this is so bad, we're fucked, all this stuff. And it, he told me and it was good. Instead of Donald Trump being like, you know, we're, we have the most tremendous scientists, you know? Everything is the best, we're, you know, it's not a big deal, like, just tell us, just tell us what the fuck is going on and I'll be on my way.

• 32:23Chris Williamson?

  Well, here's the thing, here's the thing as well about the mainstream media. I'm gonna reprogram myself to say like the traditional media. The thing about traditional media, when they have these panel shows, first off, it's a cliche now to talk about, you know, you get your 30 second spot and you're trying to get a zinger in, so it's a good YouTube video. That's old. What I think is more interesting is people presume that a large lineup of guests equals a high amount of value. It's like, oh, well, look at this. They've got Ben Affleck and Sam Harris on the same show and it's Bill Maher's show. They've got this guy, he's a virologist, and this woman, she's public health official, and this guy. And you're like, right, I know that sounds great. That sounds fantastic.

• 33:07Chris Williamson?

  But it's the, it's the girl who has played hard to get for ages with big titties that doesn't care about having sex with you? It's like, all of this stuff, all of the headlines sound fantastic, but the actual performance and what you get out of it is completely terrible.

• 33:23Zack Telander?

  Yeah, yes, it's-

• 33:27Zack Telander?

  It's always been when we've privatized something that shouldn't be privatized. So we have privatized media or we've privatized news. That makes zero sense. News is public. That's the definition of it. It's delivering events, things that have happened, ways to protect yourself, all of these different things. And we've privatized that. So people make money. So you, there was a, I just saw this goddamn clip, man. And this woman was like, we're working on a vaccine. Um, we're working on a vaccine. So we go to this company and it's like, this is like ABC, right? Working on a vaccine.

• 34:12Zack Telander?

  And then they talk to the, the lead scientist of this vaccine. And they're like, we talked to the lead scientist who was making this vaccine on the floor. And then the person's like, yeah, we're ready to like make the vaccine. And they're like, and back to you. It was like, I'm not even kidding you, 10 seconds. It was like, are you kidding me? I would have sat there and listened to this person talk for 30 minutes. I'm not allowed to leave my fucking house. And you guys are still making four minute long clips where the, the lead scientist making a vaccination that could save millions of lives is now being fucking pigeonholed into a 10 second bit. So you can try and get more views like that.

• 34:57Zack Telander?

  Why are we in that world? It's, there's, it's no wonder why people give more of a shit about Joe Rogan, where he sits down with guys for three hours and he's like, huh, interesting. You know, like, I, I just remember being absolutely floored after that. You know, and it's the same old song and dance. It happens every time.

• 35:16Chris Williamson?

  As bad as it is, the advantage, for as long as that game continues to be played by traditional media, there is a gap in the market for people like me, people like you, people like Rogan, people like Eric Weinstein, you know, because it's not being serviced. And the fact, it's like the stats, again, it's cliche to say, but I think podcast stats essentially double, it's like the Moore's law, like every two years, they're doubling the, the total number of global listens.

• 35:43Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Chris Williamson?

  And some unbelievable, it's like more than 50% of Americans are now subscribed to a podcast. Now that doesn't mean they necessarily listen every week, but that's like. Fuck, like, there's not more than 50% of Americans that do pretty much anything.

• 35:58Zack Telander?

  Anything, yeah, yeah.

• 36:00Chris Williamson?

  Like, there's nothing that unites you. You can't even get 50% of the country to vote together.

• 36:05Zack Telander?

  Like, well, it's, it's when, when social media becomes media, you know, it's like, um,

• 36:12Zack Telander?

  having a YouTube channel is becoming more and more social media. Like, having a YouTube channel and getting people to watch is very different than having an Instagram and getting people to, to, to follow. But those sort of things are more, are blending more and more together. If you have a podcast, there's a chance that you'll have a YouTube channel. And there's a chance that you'll be able to clip up some of those YouTube channel podcast clips and throw them on your Instagram. So the more and more connected it is. Um, and the, and the more and more people are going to consume that style of media rather than your typical ABC. But if, to bring it back to, to powerlifting, weightlifting, bodybuilding,

• 36:56Zack Telander?

  you know, all different forms of fitness, there, I imagine that the, the viewership for those things is doubling. The viewership and the listening to all of those things is doubling as well. There is definitely, definitely a lot more room for legitimate sources of information around fitness. And I think there always will be. People think it's getting too saturated. It's not. It's when a, a certain trend kicks off and then other people just latch on to that trend. Right? Um, I think Jeff Nippard pulling in, uh, scientific examples of why things work

• 37:37Zack Telander?

  and trying to lay them out in simplistic ways, like, that is becoming a more saturated style of delivering content, even though it's not wrong. Um, and if you do it, you're not really, it, it, it all depends on the person who's delivering. If I say, hey, you know, um, Jeff Nippard's doing this, I want to do it. Well, then that's probably the wrong approach. But if I say, here's something that I'm really passionate about, and here's someone who does it pretty well, I think I'm going to try to do a little bit what they do. Use a little bit of influence. I think that's okay. But there's always room for more information around fitness. I mean, look at where we are from

• 38:18Zack Telander?

  when you started and when I started weightlifting and and just going to the gym. Look at the the knowledge that the average gym goer has compared to then.

• 38:28Chris Williamson?

  Well, you don't have to. You're not trawling through bodybuilding.com forums.

• 38:33Zack Telander?

  That's what I used to do, man.

• 38:35Chris Williamson?

  T Nation articles.

• 38:37Zack Telander?

  That is literally what I used to do. I mean, I was around when dial-up internet was a thing. You know what I mean? I was and and for me.

• 38:48Chris Williamson?

  Kids these days will never know, Zach, man. Kids these days will never know.

• 38:52Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 38:52Chris Williamson?

  Fucking Craig Ritchie and Sonny Webster giving you free fucking workouts all the time.

• 38:57Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 38:58Chris Williamson?

  Get some of the best information on the planet available, free streaming and full HD VR 3D bullshit.

• 39:04Zack Telander?

  It's it's actually crazy, man. Like, I can, you know, if someone wants to learn to snatch and clean a jerk, like, they can go online and fucking do it. And that is crazy. If I want to go and learn how to surf, if I want to do anything, I can do it. It's it's amazing. It also, people are still too lazy sometimes to do that, you know? You'll go to a Globo Gym and you'll see someone squatting with shit form. And it'll be amazing to you that someone will be squatting with such shit form or shit technique. And they'll be adding more and more weight and they'll be just lifting like a general jackass

• 39:44Zack Telander?

  when we do have all of these awesome, you know, sources of information. So a lot of times, it's more of like a human condition. Like, yes, the information is getting better. It's better and better, better. But a lot of times, humans are lazy sacks of shit.

• 40:01Chris Williamson?

  Path of least resistance, man. It always is. So, look, let's let's get into it, right? Let's start because I've got a powerlifter who's one of the the guys that comes on and co-hosts now. And then Johnny. Definitely, there is a disproportionate number of powerlifters who are also accountants. 100%.

• 40:21Zack Telander?

  That is weird.

• 40:22Chris Williamson?

  Try and tell me otherwise.

• 40:24Zack Telander?

  That's super weird. Yeah, I don't know. I've never, I've never met, I don't think I've met a powerlifter that's an accountant as well.

• 40:30Chris Williamson?

  Oh, man, they love spreadsheets, you know, everything's color coded.

• 40:34Zack Telander?

  That's actually true. I mean, now that I think about the, the powerlifting coach that I know, uh, who owns my gym, when we had a gym, uh, the good old days, his program is insanely, it's like so deep, you know, it's got

• 40:52Chris Williamson?

  Beautiful.

• 40:53Zack Telander?

  Pages of spreadsheets, color coded, all that, all that jazz. So, yeah.

• 40:57Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So powerlifters, powerlifters, a lot of them are accountants. I think weightlifters, in my experience, weightlifters are kind of like, they're a little bit like the arty kid in school. Like they probably, they probably did like music, probably did music, I reckon, going through school. Perhaps did, maybe even like a little bit of, you know, like dance or something.

• 41:17Zack Telander?

  I mean, look, you're, you want to see how right you are? Look at this. There's my guitar down there. And there's my drum set right here.

• 41:27Chris Williamson?

  Man, I got it. I got it. I'm telling you.

• 41:30Zack Telander?

  Yeah, no. Okay. So, so the powerlifters are definitely the kids who got As in math and, uh, are very hardworking.

• 41:41Chris Williamson?

  I think there's another, there's another wing of the powerlifters and they are the kids that listen to Slipknot, Metallica, like a lot of heavy metal. Um, as, uh, what's his self, the, the guy that does the, um, bro science, uh, YouTube channel. I can't remember his name, but he says, uh, they were the kids at the back of the class that were playing bloody knuckles and piercing themselves with safety.

• 42:09Zack Telander?

  Yes, Dom Mizetti.

• 42:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, Dom Mizetti, yeah, that's him. And he's playing bloody knuckles at the back of the class, piercing themselves with safety pins. Like, there are those two, those are the two main camps, I think.

• 42:20Zack Telander?

  Yeah, so they would be meatheads and nerds.

• 42:23Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, but both, both of whom have realised that if they lift tonnes of weights, it's kind of impressive.

• 42:30Zack Telander?

  Yeah, like, yeah, I know what you're saying. And then I'd say weightlifters are more inclined to be kind of artsy, I guess, too. If we're gonna, if we're gonna group them into like click, clicky type things or groups in high school, I would say, um,

• 42:49Zack Telander?

  it's hard, it's hard because you could say that CrossFitters, there's a group of them that are kind of nerdy hard workers, but they also, some CrossFitters, like, I feel like some of the CrossFit girls could be the like attractive girl who was also, had a 4.0 and was a part of a bunch of different clubs.

• 43:11Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah. A number of domains, yeah. But there's also, there is also a huge, huge subculture of CrossFit girls who have realised that they can wear hot pants year round if they do CrossFit.

• 43:27Zack Telander?

  Yes.

• 43:27Chris Williamson?

  They're like, look, hang on, I usually get shouted at off my mum when I walk out wearing those shorts, but you're telling me that I can do that an hour a day, five days a week in this gym? Are you being serious?

• 43:37Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Chris Williamson?

  That's absolutely, and a bra? Wow. Like, that's, and you know who you are. Okay, you know who you are.

• 43:45Zack Telander?

  Yeah, I think, you know, something I'm always thinking about is like, the things, the recovery, I think that CrossFitters are, it's much more a part of their culture to focus on recovery at all levels and focus on nutrition at all levels, if you're like really, really into it.

• 44:08Zack Telander?

  Because there are so many different movements. I feel like the training is like. When you go to the gym, there's so many different movements. So you can't necessarily train or control the way that you move and everything. And so it's almost a release. It's like a relief of pressure, if that makes sense. Like if, if for a weightlifter, if they don't snatch and clean and jerk well, well, their identity is now missing. So they're going to snatch and clean and jerk well. And they're going to do whatever it takes to do that. Crossfitters can get theirs in the gym. They can get theirs in the gym. It in so many different ways.

• 44:49Chris Williamson?

  So more places to hide as a cross.

• 44:51Zack Telander?

  Yeah, yeah. But when you're, when you're taking your shirt off and you're wearing your hot pants, you can't hide. Right. And so for them, it's like, I'm going to get my nutrition locked in. I'm not going to go party on the weekends. I am going to get enough sleep, you know? There's the recovery aspect that I think across, I, I really do feel like we're crossfitters. Work on really, really, really hard compared to powerlifters or maybe, maybe weightlifters.

• 45:20Chris Williamson?

  There's, there's another one actually as well. I don't know so much about weightlifters because I've not watched their sessions quite so closely. But I know for an absolute fact that powerlifting has to be the least time efficient sport to train in.

• 45:35Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 45:36Chris Williamson?

  Ever known.

• 45:37Zack Telander?

  Well, that is true, but it's mainly, again, that's a path of least resistance there. If you, you watch powerlifters, they, so weightlifters, we sit down a lot when we're training. But at the same time, the relative loads that we're lifting are nowhere near as high as powerlifters. So we can get up and go lift again. Like we, you know, sometimes you start having conversations and not losing focus. But powerlifters, it's like they just killed themselves in their last set. So they're going to rest and then that rest turns into something that's like 10 minutes long.

• 46:13Chris Williamson?

  Lot of phone use.

• 46:15Zack Telander?

  Yes.

• 46:15Chris Williamson?

  Choosing the next track.

• 46:17Zack Telander?

  Yes.

• 46:18Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Zack Telander?

  Yes. So I, I think though, weightlifters do that quite a bit. And every once in a while, when I'm coaching, I have to get on my weightlifter's asses to be like, "Hey, we're training now. Like, let's go."

• 46:30Chris Williamson?

  You know, that's one of the things, especially to fly the flag, at least in part for CrossFit, because we're just, we're just kind of bashing everyone at the moment. To fly the flag, at least in part for CrossFit, I like the fact that it is a part of your day where your phone is left in your bag, you know, you could, you get your whiteboard out, you write your workout out on your whiteboard, phone goes in bag, there's a clock on the wall, that's it, done. But especially as a weightlifter, because of the requirement now, this 21st century requirement with weightlifters and powerlifters, especially those that are getting remote coaching, to video every one of their lifts. And then they go over, they take the phone off the little Joby grip that's attached to the rig on the far side, they watch the video back, then they choose their next track, then they get sucked

• 47:13Chris Williamson?

  into Instagram, "Oh, I'll put an Instagram story up," or do this, that and the other, you know, it's vicious, vicious cycle.

• 47:18Zack Telander?

  It's, uh, yeah, that, when I coach my guys, it's kind of a thing where I just, they don't, they're not allowed to have their cell phones out. So, um, and that just, everyone's focused on each other, focused on themselves, focused on the barbell. And then, you know, you can, when we go to do accessories, you can bring your phone and chat and stuff. I don't care too much. But, um, for the most part, I try to limit the phone usage completely during practice times, um, because it's not helping anyone, you know, it's not even helping you. If they want video of something, like, yeah, that's, that's fine, you know, if someone wants a video. But for the most part, people wouldn't even abuse it anyways, because it's like, kind

• 48:01Zack Telander?

  of, like, it's a social event, like, you want to be there with your team, you want to watch other people lift, you want to kind of cheer them on and stuff like that.

• 48:11Zack Telander?

  But, you know, I actually was just talking about this yesterday. I don't know, do you know who Michelle Latandra is? No. So she was a Games athlete. I think she's been to six Games and now she's a coach and she's coached, she coaches Patrick Vellner, she coached Laura Horvath. She's a really, really smart person and generally awesome. And we were talking about the differences when she was a CrossFitter and then when she went to compete in weightlifting. And she remembers feeling a lot better when she was lifting heavy while she was a CrossFitter, which is interesting. And I think I know why, and that's

• 48:51Zack Telander?

  because CrossFitters have that, they can alleviate the pressure from a certain lift. Their fear of snatching heavy or clean and jerking heavy and fear of failure, any of that is just not there. Why? Even when they switch, because it's embedded in their sport. Why would you care about a maximum snatch when you have 13 other things that you have to do? Like, yeah, you want to do the best you can, but this is not your identity. This is not who you are. And when they switch to competitive weightlifting, that still stays with them. They're like, oh, it's my first meet. I'm just gonna have fun. Oh, it's my second meet, you know, this. I've only done weightlifting for,

• 49:30Zack Telander?

  officially for a year now, and I just keep PR-ing all that stuff. And that's a great, great mentality because they're basically, they're forgetting the things that aren't, that are outside of their control. They're completely taking them out of, you know, out of the situation. And a lot of weightlifters lose sight of that when they start training. And so there's this line, and we talk about this a lot, me and my coach Max is, is having this line of expectations and standards. So if you expect a lot,

• 50:15Zack Telander?

  Right? And you have decently high standards. It's not always the best. Having low expectations, but incredibly high standards is usually going to bid you the best result for the most of the, for, for most of the time, especially when you're training.

• 50:29Chris Williamson?

  It's challenging. So when you're passionate about something, right? You know, like you want to do well. You want to do, everyone that's listening, that's,

• 50:36Zack Telander?

  But expectations, the word itself, expect. Why do we go about life expecting anything? Expect? Like, that's a stupid word. That's silly. You're not, you, nothing is deserved. Nothing is expected. You just have to do the best you can and do better than you did before, and at least try to do better. I think that is the only expectation is that you will give your best effort. When you expect a certain result, you either get that result and there you go, your life is over, or you get below that result and everything sucks. Either way,

• 51:17Zack Telander?

  everything sucks. Right? It's being process oriented versus goal oriented. Okay. But what we were talking about, a very interesting aspect is that the best, the elite, elite, elite, like the Matt Frasers or the Michael Phelps, those are the ones that have high expectations and high standards, and they don't always have the, the best mental health because of it.

• 51:43Chris Williamson?

  Couldn't agree more, man. There's a bunch of people who I think aren't happy. I actually think Matt Fraser is. I think he has, he's just built to be a high performer. But a lot of the time, there's a price that you need to pay. I did a video on this recently, talking about you can't just take part of someone's life. You have to take the whole. So people look at Elon Musk or fucking Matt Fraser, for instance, or, you know, Tiger Woods, amazing example, actually, Tiger Woods. Like, you look at Tiger Woods 20 years ago and you go, oh, my God, this guy's like worth millions of dollars, sponsored by Nike, best golfer on the planet, child prodigy, this, that and the other. But if you find out about

• 52:25Chris Williamson?

  Tiger, especially if you read Stillness is the Key by Ryan Holiday, he's got some amazing research in that about Tiger, and that his dad, his dad abused him. As a child in golf, like it was golf abuse, but it was absolutely 100%, especially in today's society would be considered abuse. He even had a safe word. They had a safe word. Tiger Woods and his dad had a safe word and the safe word was enough. And he never once said it. They called it, they referred to it as the E word. That makes the hairs stand up on the back of my neck.

• 53:01Zack Telander?

  I know. Yeah.

• 53:02Chris Williamson?

  The E word. They had a safe word for when Tiger was like, dad, you're pushing, you're pushing me too hard here. And like he used to say, that used to call him, he used to call his own son, the N word. It was like, this is why you're useless. And this is why this, this is why that, like, and you think, okay, you see Tiger Woods, you see the product at the end of this, you don't realise what he's had to sacrifice, all of the things that the baggage that he carries with him that go along with that. I remember in Chasing Excellence by Ben Vergeron, there's this story about Matt Fraser, used to be, I think, an engineer, mechanical engineer.

• 53:37Zack Telander?

  We went to the same college.

• 53:38Chris Williamson?

  No way. Yeah.

• 53:40Zack Telander?

  At similar time. University, university. That's how, yeah, that's what people in the UK call it university, right?

• 53:45Chris Williamson?

  Yes, correct.

• 53:46Zack Telander?

  As opposed, I mean, it is a university, but in America, we, we can say anything is a college. But yes, go on.

• 53:53Chris Williamson?

  And there was a story, he was revising at night for his engineering exam thing. And he wasn't letting himself leave the library until he could recite this entire chapter verbatim. And then he would get toward the end and would mess up. And then he'd go, right, just start again. It was like 5am and he finally did it and let himself leave. And you think like, the byproduct of that is you have someone who is so particular about the performance, so incredibly

• 54:26Chris Williamson?

  precise with what it is that they want. But what's the price that you have to pay for that? Like, can Matt Fraser ever go to bed without the room being made or without putting his shorts away? Or can he ever go on holiday without having a minute by minute plan? I don't know if these are particular examples, and they're obviously not existential threats. But you can imagine if you start to create more of a pathological, psychological profile of that, there can be some, some fairly painful side effects that come with this.

• 54:51Zack Telander?

  Yeah, it's.

• 54:54Zack Telander?

  The whole wanting to like, I think if you want to do better and you want to improve, low expectations, high standards. If you want to be the absolute best, you have to almost tease yourself. You almost have to make fun of yourself. You have to make yourself depressed. You have to make yourself sad. You have to make yourself fearful. You have to make yourself scared. Those are not good health qualities. You should never do that if you want to live a healthy, safe, happy life, right? But that's not what these people want. They want to fucking win. That's like, I would never ever say to Matt Fraser, you know, low ex- well, low expectations, high standards.

• 55:38Zack Telander?

  But I would say to 99.9% of everyone in the world who wants to improve at what they're doing, low expectations, high standards. They're wanting to win is like a curse. It's like a horrible, horrible thing. And sometimes you'll see an athlete who's actually so naturally gifted that they won't even need to have that toxic of a mindset. And that's about the rarest of rare.

• 56:04Chris Williamson?

  You know who I think might have that? Patrick Vellner. Upon looking from the outside in, I think he may do.

• 56:10Zack Telander?

  Well, you know, again, you could never ever know because you're not in Patrick Vellner's brain. It's like we, we don't even know, we don't know the first thing about Matt Fraser. We don't live with him. We don't, you know, it's like, we don't know anyone. No one knows anyone's story or the encounters that they have. You can only judge them based off of what? Nothing.

• 56:33Chris Williamson?

  What they choose to tell you.

• 56:33Zack Telander?

  Yeah. And even then, it's like, it's not even a fraction. It's a blink of what they actually are as a human and what they, you know, they can tell you these things in interviews. And I'm not saying that these people are hiding bad things. I'm saying this because I would hope that no one would judge me for who I am or the type of person I am. Um, or say that, you know, you know, Zach isn't struggling or he is struggling. They wouldn't be able to tell those things based off of the tiny little blip of information they're given. I, on the outside, yeah, you know, it does look like Patrick Vellner looks like the type of guy who is,

• 57:14Zack Telander?

  just excels and has a good mentality, but you don't know the torment that he gives himself. Before he goes to sleep.

• 57:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 57:21Zack Telander?

  And it's things like that.

• 57:23Chris Williamson?

  That's what, that's what the, the ultimate leveler, I think for everyone, and this, I use this example with Elon Musk a lot. It's like, everyone thinks Elon Musk unbelievable PayPal mafia Tesla sending fucking people to Mars. We're going to colonize the planet. We're going to do all this sort of stuff. I'd love to be him. He's just this super genius polymath with billions of dollars and, and, and a coolest fuck company. And if he wants to create ventilators in a day, he'll do it because he's got the productivity and all this stuff. But you don't know what the inside of Elon Musk's head is like when he goes to sleep on a night.

• 57:56Zack Telander?

  Exactly. You don't know the torment. You're the one, you know, that's, my buddy just always would say to me, it'd be like, you're the one inside your head. You know, it's, it's as simple as a voice in your head taunting you or, you know, like that is not healthy. Like most people, you would try to eliminate that voice of negativity or, or whatever it is that's not making you feel good. We want to feel good, right? But to some of these people, that voice is what fires them up and that is not a good thing. And that doesn't make them a good person.

• 58:36Zack Telander?

  We have a lot, we have this, this way of trying to fixate patterns on people. And

• 58:47Zack Telander?

  we will make assumptions to make ourselves feel better at any cost. Assumptions that have absolutely zero basis in science or basis in the real world.

• 58:59Chris Williamson?

  What like?

• 58:59Zack Telander?

  This person can't cheat. He's a good person. Well, those are two different things. Those are two different things. Do you understand? This person can't take drugs. He's a, I've seen him. He's a good guy. What, why, those are not, those, you know, you can't say the grass is green because the sky is blue or whatever. That's not how that works, but we always want to make patterns like that because it's like.

• 59:29Zack Telander?

  That's a struggle of human consciousness. We're always trying to find how we can make sense of this world.

• 59:36Chris Williamson?

  Here's why I said this is touched on something I talk about a lot that we think in archetypes. So we have these cultural memes that we're fed, especially when we're young. And then we try and slot people into these archetypes, the hero, the maiden, the villain, the redeemed, the hopeless case, you know, the nerd, the strong alpha, the silent guy, you know, all of these different things. And we try and slot people into this. Part of it is because we're lazy and it's because we don't want to have to do the work to work out, well, hang on, Zach's like got a bit of this, but he's also got like a bit of that in him and a little bit of this. And that doesn't really, these two things don't really fit.

• 1:00:18Chris Williamson?

  So I'm kind of going to forget about that and I'll just have him as the, I'll pin him as the that guy. You know, it's like, whatever the majority of your personality makeup is, we'll just use that.

• 1:00:29Zack Telander?

  The best stories, the best films are the ones that question that, the best ones by far. Who do we root for? Who's good? Who's bad? What is good and what is bad? What is morality? What is immoral? Those are the best stories. And it's really funny because in Hollywood, like people still,

• 1:00:53Zack Telander?

  they're like, what's his thing? Like what, what's his archetype? Is he the hero of this story? It's like, why are we still, why is that everyone's go to? Even though we know the best stories are the ones that question those things. Think about like something as simple as like the Joker that just came out. Are we on Arthur Fleck's side or are we not? Are, do you know who's good, who's bad? Is Murray bad? Is Murray good? We don't, people like that, that sort of stuff, it, it causes pain in people. I left that movie theater and I shit you not, I looked around, I remember hearing conversations of girls and guys, everyone being like, that fucking sucked, that movie sucked.

• 1:01:38Zack Telander?

  That movie was depressing. I, I, I'm so pissed. I went and saw that movie. I walked out of that movie theater being like, that was one of the best movies I've ever sat down and watched ever. You know? Because when I go to something like that, I want, it helps, it's an exercise to question my surroundings, to question my world. When we want to go to the movie theater and hold up a big foam finger and get our popcorn and cheer on Vin Diesel and the Fast and the Furious guys, that's fine. But what happens is that sort of mindset carries over into

• 1:02:21Zack Telander?

  all things culture. We want to deliver an ideology, we want to deliver a subset of things where we can fit people all the goddamn time, and it runs amok. It doesn't allow for nuance. My channel is based off of nuance, even though it's a simple thing where all I talk about is the snatch and the clean and jerk. If that's it, then I should have ended my channel two years ago. If it's just about those two things, there's no nuance there. But that is the goal of my style of coaching, my style of everything, is to

• 1:03:04Zack Telander?

  play with what is the answer. Nuance, nuance, nuance, always in between the lines, always examining what people have done, what people have thought, and examine what I have done and what I have thought and experiences I've had. If we're not doing things like that, then we're just going to keep in this cyclical bullshit narrative, this structure that's always going to repeat itself over and over and over again. In all honesty, that was all I did. Here is my structure. If anyone is listening to how I made my YouTube channel

• 1:03:47Zack Telander?

  what it is. Instead of saying, "Here's how you do the snatch. You do the snatch like this. You do this, you do that." Thank you for watching. I was saying, when you learn this thing... It's likely that this will happen and it's likely that you'll be told to do this. What I have found through my own experimentation is that either of those could work.

• 1:04:14Zack Telander?

  If done like this, or this, or this. Do you see the variance in that? That right there, it has like, you know, offshoots of different routes you can go, different things. I want to empower the viewer, not tell them what to do. So I continually will try to do that. When someone wants me to do a video on programming, I think, what is the issue actually?

• 1:04:40Zack Telander?

  I don't want to, I don't want to write a program and say, do this. I want to know what it is that most people do wrong and I want to fix it. Or, or offer suggestions on how you can fix it. And that's it. And then, and honest to God, I know I just went on like a huge rant, but that, that is the biggest, without question, part of my success. And I'm sure as far as your podcast goes, that's what you want to do too. You want to live in the nuance.

• 1:05:07Chris Williamson?

  That's what I'm here for, man. That's literally, that's what interests me. It's the reason that I have these conversations, you know? And I say, I've said it a million times, I'm going to say it again. If you are not having a conversation with a friend about a concept that you are interested in for at least half an hour a week where your phones are outside of the room, then you are missing out on the opportunity to develop yourself. I think it's like, oh, well, I need to do my yoga this week, or I need to do my mobility today, or I need to go for a walk, or I need to get my 10,000 steps. Once a week, you need to have a conversation with a friend that's not distracted by other things because it sharpens your skills, it improves the precision of your thoughts, improves your ability to articulate things.

• 1:05:47Zack Telander?

  It could be with yourself, man.

• 1:05:49Chris Williamson?

  Well, you could record a monologue, you could, everyone's got a phone.

• 1:05:53Zack Telander?

  I mean, I definitely talk to myself for sure. Like, there's no question. And I know that might sound weird or whatever, but. I, sometimes I'll be walking the dogs and I'll just think out loud, sometimes I'll just start talking and it looks like I have schizophrenia, but, but realistically, like, I, I couldn't agree more with, um, you know, did you ever see the documentary on Avicii? Yes. The, the one on Netflix? Yeah. Okay, so there's the part where he says he's really interested in this article, or maybe this study that's, that talks about the type of introverts there are.

• 1:06:33Zack Telander?

  And he's like, "I'm kind of what you would call an extroverted introvert," or something like that. And he's like, "I am not interested in going out and partying, but I am very interested in being social and sharing ideas with people, and very deep, meaningful discussion." So in that sense, being very sociable does not mean being an extrovert. Wanting to share ideas and wanting to talk about philosophy, talk about deeper things, that is inherently, you know, it could be called an introverted thing, even though it involves other people.

• 1:07:16Zack Telander?

  I believe that I kind of fit into something like that, and ultimately, you could see during this documentary,

• 1:07:24Zack Telander?

  he wants that, the whole time. You know, when you have, when you're that famous and making that much money for other people, those other people are going to treat you like a product, they're, because they make money off of you. So at no point in any time did anyone stop to talk politics with the man. And that's all he wanted to do, talk politics, talk religion, talk philosophy. You know, my wife, her parents and their friends would get together and they would talk about politics, religion, and philosophy. The three things that at the dinner table with friends, you are not supposed to talk about, right?

• 1:08:05Zack Telander?

  They would have all of their friends come over and those are the three things that they would talk about. Because they, it's like, what are we then, if we're just a system of?

• 1:08:17Zack Telander?

  Bullshit that we just regurgitate to each other. Right? I totally agree. At least a half hour a week. That's nothing, man. Half hour a week is nothing.

• 1:08:27Chris Williamson?

  It's a way to program it in. So here's another one for you. This is something you may not have heard of before. George McGill, who is the highest ever played episode, he's just a mate, just essentially a nobody. Highest ever played episode, more than Robert Greene, more than Aubrey Marcus, more than Dave Castro or Dan Bailey.

• 1:08:41Zack Telander?

  Wow.

• 1:08:42Chris Williamson?

  And it's just a conversation between me and him. And he brings up this idea, which is called high agency. He says it's the single most useful skill, the most powerful skill in the 21st century. It's a conversation about mental models and high agency is one of them. High agency is a ability for a person to enact change as they see fit within the world. And the way to work out who your friend with high agency or the highest agency friend that you have is, is to do this mental exercise. I'm going to get you to do it now and I want to hear your answer. So imagine that you are put into a foreign jail. Let's say South America. You're put in South America jail somewhere, Panama, somewhere proper, you're going to get fucked up.

• 1:09:27Chris Williamson?

  And you have to get out in 24 hours. Who do you call?

• 1:09:34Chris Williamson?

  You can call one friend. Who's the person that you call?

• 1:09:41Zack Telander?

  It's definitely going to be the person that is the most communicative. Right? The most dependable person.

• 1:09:50Chris Williamson?

  Well, think about, think about what they're going to be able to do. They're not going to need anyone else. They're going to have incredible solidarity. They're going to be able to think laterally, orthogonally. They're going to be able to, as you say, they're going to manipulate things in terms of a social aspect. They're going to be likable. They're going to be able to think outside of the box, you know, all of these different, all these different things. And the crucial, the crucial thing is they do all of that in motion. So it's not that they can abstractly think about what they would do. It's the ability of someone, because there's tons of people that have great ideas. There's, how many people have you heard that say, I'd love to start a YouTube channel. I really like doing video. People, I love having conversations. I love listening to podcasts. It's like, put it into motion.

• 1:10:32Zack Telander?

  Yeah, the actionable person too, is what matters. The person that gets shit done.

• 1:10:36Chris Williamson?

  Who would you ring?

• 1:10:37Zack Telander?

  Uh, probably my buddy Augie. He's one of my longest and best friends. He would answer and, you know, he would get a plan together in action like almost immediately for sure, you know, for sure. No question. And I think, you know, that's, it's interesting. You say that my coach Max, he always says ideas are meaningless, you know, ideas are absolutely meaningless. It's the, it's the, what am I thinking? What kind of phrase am I thinking about? It's the actionable, ah, God, capitalization? No.

• 1:11:18Zack Telander?

  It's, he always uses this as an example. Uber as an idea is a great idea, but supposedly, and I don't know if this is completely true still, it's losing money as a company. Is that true?

• 1:11:33Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:11:34Zack Telander?

  Right. So it's not a good company.

• 1:11:37Zack Telander?

  It's not. I'm, I'll be the first person to say that. If you're losing money, you're not a good company. Right?

• 1:11:43Chris Williamson?

  Great idea, bad company.

• 1:11:46Zack Telander?

  Yes. Okay. So

• 1:11:50Zack Telander?

  his thing that Max says is if you could, you would. That's it. If you could do it, wouldn't you do it? If you can sit there and criticize someone on the way that they're doing something, that would mean that you could do it. And if you could do it, wouldn't you fucking do it?

• 1:12:15Chris Williamson?

  That's a really, that's a really, really good way to put it, you know, I'm sure.

• 1:12:18Zack Telander?

  It's as simple as it gets.

• 1:12:21Chris Williamson?

  A lot of people, I did an episode with Dr. David Sinclair, Harvard Medical School, one of the 50 most influential health professionals on the planet, immediately after Rogan had him, and then I had him. I'm just, I'm still just some guy, but I was even less of some guy a year, a year and a half ago. Anyway, and I started getting all of these things, like, why didn't you ask him questions about this? Why didn't you chase him up on the fact that he's doing? I'm like, why don't you ask him on your podcast?

• 1:12:49Zack Telander?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Chris Williamson?

  Oh, right.

• 1:12:50Zack Telander?

  You don't have one. Yeah, so here's, okay, here's another one. And again, I, Max, Max Ada, I don't know if you know who he is. He's a pretty famous American weightlifting coach. Everyone should check him out, but he's definitely a big influence on me. And

• 1:13:10Zack Telander?

  he, there's three category, three criteria for what makes you a good weightlifting coach is what have you done yourself?

• 1:13:24Zack Telander?

  What have you done with others? And what sort of education have you taken on to make yourself better? These are things that are always moving. You will never be a good coach in the sense that you can't get better. So you, people can think of you being good as relative to other people or relative to other things, but you'll never be a good solidified coach. You always have to be evolving. But what have you done can mean what?

• 1:13:56Zack Telander?

  What have you lifted? And from what point have you lifted this and lifted that? So your improvement over this amount of time, have you, can you, can you show it to me? Skin in the game. Yes. With others. Now, this is a broader one, but again, you could always think you have taken athlete A and you have brought them where? Show me exactly where the fuck you did that. Where did that athlete get better? And I need to see it. Okay, or what coach have you taken under your wing? What sort, who can vouch for you? Who could I talk to and say, you know what? That's a fucking good coach. Who can do that? That's, it's your relationship with others.

• 1:14:42Zack Telander?

  And the final one is education. What are you currently doing to be a better coach through things that aren't maybe lifting related? To be a better person, to be a better, you know, father, husband, you know, boyfriend, whatever it is. What are you doing? How are you educating yourself? It could be, you know, you go and you find a mentor. You go and you visit someone and you have a podcast with them. Like, those are educational moments. Those are things for growth. And if you can't provide me with those three things in any light, you are not you are not doing a good job of proving yourself in whatever field that is.

• 1:15:27Zack Telander?

  What have you done? What have you done with others? And what the fuck is your education? Or how are you educating yourself? And some people will say, what have you done? And they'll be like, I don't have anything.

• 1:15:38Zack Telander?

  Yeah, okay, so why are we having this discussion? It random internet commenter who thinks they know fucking better? You know, this is another thing too, is the people that are the quickest to talk shit to me or talk about me or about anyone are the last people to be doing it themselves. I, when I go to these weightlifting meets, I see the same coaches, the same lifters at every single one of them. And I'm so happy to see them. They're always there. And the people that that comment, that talk shit, that create the most noise are never there. Ever. It's as simple as that. Show up. Just show up. Just show up.

• 1:16:23Zack Telander?

  Be a part of it if you want to fix it. That, you know, it's like, it's like in any Americans and I'm sure people from the UK love complaining about politics on their Facebook or whatever. They, but they'll never, ever do anything about it. Ever, ever, ever, ever. You know, it's just, it's shit like that is mind boggling to me.

• 1:16:47Chris Williamson?

  I think it becomes particularly, it becomes particularly irritating to somebody like yourself. Or, you know, anyone that's listening, it doesn't, you know, us fucking children of the 21st century with our new fangled YouTube's and Instagram podcast profiles and all this shit. Like, it doesn't matter about that, but there's people that are listening who have high agency that are just great mums, great brothers, great, you know, employees, great managers, great directors of companies, whatever it might be. Like, there's still people that have that high agency that still are in motion, right? They're doing stuff. But you're right, it's the same people who always tend to comment, but don't ever put it into action. And there's something particularly triggering about that in a way.

• 1:17:30Zack Telander?

  It's weakness.

• 1:17:31Chris Williamson?

  But it's, it's, it makes you feel, um, it's gobsmacked. You're like, that guy, that guy said that thing. That guy, that guy said it. What, how did, how did he say it? You know, like, why?

• 1:17:46Zack Telander?

  Even still, like, even still, I try to avoid even, like, the simplicity of getting upset with a, by a commenter. What I like to know is that you look at the huge picture around that. Why are they commenting? And what are they not doing? What is, what is the process that we are in as a society that allows this type of shit? You know? Cause like you said, there's a lot of people out there listening who are fucking awesome people. And when I see someone who kicks ass as a father, who kicks or kicks ass as a mother,

• 1:18:28Zack Telander?

  a brother, just kicks ass as a fucking person and doesn't have any followers or anything like that, like crazy going on, they're just good people. Like, I have more respect for them than anyone that, there's no separation. I don't give a shit who you are. If you can prove to me those things, like, I love you as a person and I will always and forever. The person, though, that like, the first thing they think about is complaining with no action.

• 1:19:01Zack Telander?

  That is, like you said, gobsmacked. I don't know. That's kind of a non-American term.

• 1:19:07Chris Williamson?

  It's where your jaw hits the floor.

• 1:19:10Zack Telander?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is the shit that is insane to me, and it's way, way too common. Like, okay, you post, you post something. The first thing I want to think about is what's a negative comment I can put to that? What's wrong about this? And I'm gonna post it immediately.

• 1:19:27Chris Williamson?

  It's really weird, because I, I don't think, except for Brian Rose from London Real, who looks like a cod out of water and I dislike intensely, except for him. I, I don't think I've ever said anything bad about anyone on the internet. My vendetta for Brian Rose aside, like, that's it. And I don't understand people who go out of their way to say anything bad. Like, let's say that you put up, let's say your next video, I'm sure it will be.

• 1:19:56Zack Telander?

  Because you wouldn't, you wouldn't.

• 1:19:58Chris Williamson?

  But let's say, let's say your next.

• 1:20:00Zack Telander?

  If you had anything in the game, if you, like you said, skin in the game, you wouldn't fucking do it.

• 1:20:06Chris Williamson?

  But let's say that your next video sucks. I'm sure it won't. But let's say that your next video sucks, and we're still chatting.

• 1:20:13Zack Telander?

  Don't be so sure, don't be so sure.

• 1:20:16Chris Williamson?

  And I'm like, I'm not gonna, even if, whether I know you or whether I don't, I'm not gonna comment and say this video is shit. I might comment and say, hey, man, like, get what you're trying to do here, but really don't think this is your best work. Perhaps you should, perhaps this would be a real cool way to, to try and redo this. And you'd read and go, that would hit you a lot harder, weirdly. Like, if someone messages and sends me something where they tell me the thing that I know that was true about it.

• 1:20:42Zack Telander?

  Yeah, it's, yes. If you deliver a nuanced approach, yeah.

• 1:20:47Zack Telander?

  It hurts way more.

• 1:20:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so bad. But, you know, I've never gone out of my way, I don't want to do that. I don't want to, I don't want to just waste my time having random internet arguments with stranger people, you know?

• 1:20:58Zack Telander?

  I'm looking at my, my phone here, because I want to point out one of, one of these people.

• 1:21:03Chris Williamson?

  Let's give him a shout out.

• 1:21:05Zack Telander?

  Yeah, you know, because this is the damage that people do, especially with this, you know, with the COVID-19 thing.

• 1:21:14Zack Telander?

  There's a lot of fucking damage that can be done with shitty commenting, a lot. And there's no punishment for it. There's no being held accountable. So this guy goes, "I basically, when shit really started hitting the fan with the virus, I basically was like, "Hey, guys, you know, it sucks, the gym is shut down, and it sucks a lot for us, for the people who, the gym is a big part of their identity." Like, I do think it's a big deal that the gyms are shut down. Most people are like, "Yeah, the gym, you know, it's just a place..." It's like, for me, that's my life. Like, I've spent so much time in there. It is a big deal. But we have to do these things

• 1:21:54Zack Telander?

  for public safety, you know? That's it. That's your social, you know, your accountability as a person in society. This guy goes, "In my opinion, the statement that shutting down gyms is necessary for safety is one of the most asinine absurdities I can recall. In regard to the overall risk, this is one of the most mild viruses in centuries. Really, people, wake up. Quit mindlessly believing everything you're told and check the facts." This was three weeks ago, okay? Well, we'll get to how idiotic that is. I just responded, I said, "Really? One of the most asinine absurdities you can recall. Speaking in hyperbole

• 1:22:39Zack Telander?

  against something you believe is hyperbolic is oh so funny to me." Right? So using hyperbole to speak against something hyperbolic. And then he goes, he responds, "You've been alive long enough to remember several outbreaks through the years. Which one was less dangerous? Which one had a lower mortality rate? How many gyms do you remember closed for that outbreak? The answer to all of them is none. I love your content, but that statement is, uh, but making that, sorry, I'm glad you're gonna continue making it, but that statement to placate, to be politically correct, or whatever, is, in my opinion, asinine absurdity." Now, mind you, this was three weeks ago, and I already knew this guy was a total dipshit. Yesterday...

• 1:23:26Zack Telander?

  Yesterday, the amount of people that have died in the US alone from COVID-19 surpassed an entire year of swine flu, which is the next one, right? So directly here is a more violent virus, right? This is a very violent virus. And that's not to make people panic, but it is what it fucking is. We're not doing this because of some conspiracy theory, right? And his thing was, he said back, he goes, he's like, "You're right. It's officially more dangerous than swine flu. I stand corrected. Given the overall ineffectiveness of our attempts to flatten the curve, do you still believe that mandatory shutting down of gyms was necessary for safety?"

• 1:24:11Zack Telander?

  And I just simply said, "Yes." And he goes, "Fair enough." Right? So maybe he conceded, right? Man, that's a rare, that is a rare human on the internet. But, but, three weeks ago is when we needed fucking shitfaces like that to not say shit like that. Three weeks ago was when it mattered. That's the point of this disease is that it takes time to develop. You can be asymptomatic for a long period of time, right? So, so, three weeks ago, when people are like, "This is bullshit. This is an asinine absurdity." And then now they're like, "You know what? I was wrong." It's like, no, you can't do that. Your words mean things.

• 1:24:55Zack Telander?

  If someone read that comment, I know that this is crazy and it probably didn't happen, but if someone read that and was like, "You know what? Yeah, fuck it." And they, by chance, were an asymptomatic carrier and they brought the virus somewhere else. That is how, that's how words can affect culture and not being held accountable to anything you say. Not being held actionable to the words that you say is the ultimate plague. It plagues us as a society. So when someone sees something and their immediate thought is, I'm going to complain about it, but I'm not going to do a goddamn thing to change it. They are the problem, not the solution, always.

• 1:25:34Chris Williamson?

  Man, I couldn't agree more. There's a blog post that I keep on referencing. It's got the worst clickbaity title by David Wong, but it's had like 14 million hits. Blog post, 14 million hits. And it's called Six Harsh Truths That Will Make You A Better Person. And essentially, one of them, the main one, is that you are what you produce, nothing else. So he's talking about, as a good example, he's saying, um, you're a single guy who complains maybe about not getting girls. And this, this archetype could be used for anything. I am a this that doesn't get this. And you say, well, I don't really understand because I'm really nice and I'm kind and I'm

• 1:26:15Chris Williamson?

  caring and I, I turn up on time and I always hold the door open for her and I do this and I do that. And they're like, right, so fucking what? Like, there is a guy, that's just the entry price that you pay to be a good human, to get in the game. There is a guy out there who has all of the things that you've just described, and he can play the fucking guitar.

• 1:26:38Zack Telander?

  Yep.

• 1:26:38Chris Williamson?

  And you're like, okay, Andy can play the guitar. And that, that's stuck with me because it, it gets us away from this cycle, the, the recycling of information, the recycling of existing talents and skills, routines, mindsets, all of the things that we do. And trying to break that wheel, as can, obviously breaking it in the correct direction as opposed to making it worse, because you can break your habits and, and replace them with worse ones. But trying to do that, you know, like, that's the, the, um, learning element of your, the learning and the personal element of your, um, weightlifting trio. And then you've got the transcendent element, which is the one that's in the middle, which is to do with making other people better. That's how you transcend.

• 1:27:20Chris Williamson?

  So you have, so I, I don't know, man, I think, I, I think there's a lot, there's an awful lot there and I think we.

• 1:27:27Zack Telander?

  Knowing, just knowing the lowest common denominator.

• 1:27:32Zack Telander?

  So people always talk about hard work. And I'm someone who questions that idea of hard work. Because hard work is relative. And a lot of times, hard work is the lowest common denominator. Right? If smart work, talent, those are things that are needed. You know, hard work. So here's a good example. I can get to the gym. I'm gonna work the, I'm gonna fucking work harder than anyone. Well, if I'm not smart about it, that hard work doesn't mean shit. I get, take a maximum back squat and unrack it and say, I'm gonna back squat this.

• 1:28:17Zack Telander?

  Tell me you're not working hard. It's impossible to not work hard when you're back squatting. It's impossible. You put, you put all the weight you can on your back and you're like, fuck, this is heavy. That's hard work, but it's not gonna make you better.

• 1:28:36Zack Telander?

  You know, unless you know what you're doing with it. So it's this culture of hard work wins, hard work wins. It's like, no, that's not, it's not ever the case. That's the lowest common denominator.

• 1:28:46Chris Williamson?

  That's the price, the entry price you have to pay to get through.

• 1:28:49Zack Telander?

  Yeah, there's someone that's working hard and is really good at the guitar. You know?

• 1:28:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And they're recovering and the nutrition's right. And they're helping to transcend what they do by bringing other people up, which then brings their game up even further. And they're doing the continuous professional development and learning. And man, I get it. Look, Zach, I feel like we could go on for, for all night, man. I'm gonna have to get you on again so we can keep this conversation going. But look, tell, tell everyone where they can go, where they should head to check you out.

• 1:29:19Zack Telander?

  So first and foremost, YouTube channel, just search Zach, Z A C K, Telander, T E L A N D E R. And then if you, you wanna follow me on Instagram, coach underscore Z T. I also have $1 program for, for weightlifting. So I have $1 programming, yeah, on my Patreon, patreon.com/zactelander. And you know, if you wanna start weightlifting, you can just click one of those programs, download it. And there you go. It also just supports me and my endeavors. You know, I, I use the money from that Patreon to go like fly to meets.

• 1:29:59Zack Telander?

  It was cool. Like my, my last Patreon check paid for my, uh, going to the Arnold and, uh, paying for all of my expenses there to, to coach, to literally just for, for my job. So it was, it was really awesome.

• 1:30:13Chris Williamson?

  That's sick.

• 1:30:14Zack Telander?

  And that's it.

• 1:30:15Chris Williamson?

  Awesome. I love it. Everything will be linked in the show notes below. Of course, uh, if you've enjoyed this episode, you know what to do. Go ahead on Zach's channel, give him some, uh, give him some love. Maybe try and find that comment of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about to do with coronavirus. Like, share and subscribe. If you've enjoyed this episode, give me a message wherever you follow me. But for now, Zach, man, thank you so much.

• 1:30:36Zack Telander?

  Yeah. Thanks for having me, man.

• 1:30:54Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company formed me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd, causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:31:11Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze in there. That's what.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17 and a middle without parent.