Personal Growth, Dating & Psychedelics | TUCKER MAX | Modern Wisdom Podcast 136

Tucker Max is an author, speaker and the Co-Founder of Scribe. How do you go from being a professional asshole to a dad? From beer bongs to boardrooms and drunken nights to ayahuasca retreats? There's a transition we all have to go through from the person we were to the person we want to be. Many of us go through this multiple times. But how do we know when it's time to change, and how can we let go of the people we used to be? Extra Stuff: Check out Tucker's company Scribe - https://scribemedia.com/ Follow Tucker on Twitter - https://twitter.com/TuckerMax Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #tuckermax #dating #personalgrowth - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Especially men, that's what a midlife crisis I think is for dudes is they realize that they've made a bunch of bad choices or truths they don't like and they're stuck and they don't know how to get out. But they won't ask themselves a hard question. They won't look at the things that they haven't done, the responsibility they haven't taken in their life. They won't make any hard decisions and so they're stuck. It sucks, man, when you get there, but the only way to avoid that is to constantly look at yourself and do your work. And by work, I mean emotional work. Am I being the best person I can? Am I being honest with myself? And if you're constantly honestly asking yourself these questions, you can't help but grow. You're gonna grow. That's just how it works. And then you change and then, you know, you become hopefully a better and better, better version of yourself. Not always the same, though. I'm never gonna be as quote cool as I was

• 0:45Speaker 00

  when I was 29, right? In certain ways, but like I'm way better in almost every other way.

• 0:52Chris Williamson?

  I'm joined by Tukka Max. Tukka, welcome to the show.

• 0:56Speaker 00

  Thank you. Thanks for having me.

• 0:57Chris Williamson?

  Pleasure to have you on, man. I was saying earlier, I posted out that I was gonna have you on the show and my DMs have just been on fire all day. Originally, we were just gonna talk about Scribe Media and we're gonna go into the nuances of book writing and stuff like that. We're gonna get into that. But I think there's some other bits that I'd love to get into first. So to kind of set the scene for people who might not fully know your backstory, how'd you get to where you are now? Head of Scribe Media, bestselling author, but sort of, how'd you get there?

• 1:29Speaker 00

  Right. So it's a long backstory. So I'll hit the highlights and then you can kind of dive into wherever you want. Let me, so, let's see, I went to undergrad at University of Chicago, law school at Duke, and then got fired from being a lawyer in three weeks. My dad fired me from the family business in six months. Then didn't really know what to do. Found my way into, I was writing emails to my friends that they thought were hilarious. And through a long series of sort of stuff, I ended up putting my stuff up on a website, my stories. They blew up. Got a ton of attention, um, you know, MTV, Girls sued me, it was all the sort of

• 2:13Speaker 00

  normal uh controversy. And then um, so ended up writing a book, became, I hope they serve beer in hell, which uh, the New York Times had invented a literary genre called Fratire and has sold, you know, a million and a half copies now or more uh worldwide, translated into whatever it is, thirty or forty languages, something. Um, and then uh, wrote two more books. Um, well, first, there was a movie made about that uh book, about my life. Uh, and then the two more books, Assholes Finish First, and Larity and Sue, sorry, and Sloppy Seconds, three more books. Those of all told have sold, I don't know, three and a half, four million ish. And um,

• 2:52Speaker 00

  uh, then did a few other things. Um, the big thing was Start Scribe. Like I said, a bunch of people asked me, how do I write and publish a book? And so uh, I started a company that helps people do that. And it's five years later, and you know, we did David Goggins' book, which is huge, and Tiffany Haddish, and a bunch of others. And so uh, here we are.

• 3:15Chris Williamson?

  Man, what a story. I love how you said all of the normal sort of controversy. That all of us, all of us are getting sued by ex-girlfriends and stuff on a, on a consistent basis. That's funny. Um, yeah, so one of the things that I really wanted to delve into with you, because I think that you've got quite unique insight on this, because you've been so transparent in that journey, from going and being, you know, a classic party boy, right? Um, the UK's got a big drinking culture, big party culture. My job, I fill nightclubs. I've run nightclubs for thirteen years. That's what I do, bread and butter, right? So I've seen like a million drunk people, ish, just over a million drunk people. Um, so I know, I know what it looks like, and so does everyone that's listening. Um, what I'm really interested in finding out is what happens when we go from,

• 3:58Chris Williamson?

  as men, young men, we go from being that- Guy who is living quite viscerally, party lifestyle. There's a point where it's for some people gradual, for some people sudden, but there's a point where you stop being that. And you start to be a simulacrum of the guy that your dad is or was, or you know, a dad to be. You get me? Like, there's not many dads that I know, even, you know, I've got some friends that are, that are pretty loose. I don't know many of the dads that are out on the lash in the same way that a 22 year old's out on the lash.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:31Chris Williamson?

  And I really want to get into that.

• 4:33Speaker 00

  They're real shitty fathers.

• 4:35Chris Williamson?

  They're bad dads. Yeah, you're right. So what, what was that process like for you? Cause obviously you were so transparent, such a big part here, all of these sort of very well publicized experiences. And now you're a dad to two wonderful kids. Three.

• 4:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:50Chris Williamson?

  Man, congratulations.

• 4:51Speaker 00

  How are you not up to the minute on my life? No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. It's so funny, dude, you're definitely English because there is no American podcaster that would ever use the word simulacrum. Like, I know what that means, but there is no American, like, thank God I have like advanced degrees. Because most Americans, what the fuck is he talking about? What is a simulacrum?

• 5:13Chris Williamson?

  Sorry.

• 5:14Speaker 00

  All right. So, uh, um, yeah, you know what's funny too, man? When my books came out, like they blew up in America and all this controversy, whatever. And all the English people were like, what are the Americans up in arms about? Everyone does this. This dude just got drunk and threw up and acted like an idiot. Like no, the British were like, someone thought it was funny, some dude, but they were like, why are you guys? America's a whole different culture with that stuff, man. Like my books in England would, like they, they did okay, but they, no one cared, right? Um, because there was no element of, uh, naughtiness and seedyness there, you know? Um, but, uh, anyway, so how did I become a dad? So it's funny, at least in America, I'm not sure in England.

• 5:55Speaker 00

  In America, the, the stereotype is the bad boy gets converted by his love for the right woman. Right? That's always how it works. And um, eh, but that's never how it, that's always stereotype, it's never how it actually works. I- in America, if you're like a, you know, like the bad boy is a younger guy, you kind of, there's two paths, there's two archetypes you can take. You can keep going, right? And like, play that up, like, I could have played. And, listen, I could have, I'm forty-four now, I could be the forty-four-year-old guy, traveling the world, still banging young girls and whatever. Like, I know those guys, they usually go on own bars or, or promote nightclubs, a lot of them.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  Or they, you know, they get into that lifestyle, um, or things that are similar, entertainment business, whatever. Um, or, uh, you, um, you basically like reform, right? That, those are kind of the archetypes. But neither of those are what hap- like, I didn't want to be the old creepy dude, uh, uh, like, that was unappealing to me. But I wasn't gonna reform, like, in terms of like, oh, what I did was bad, now I have to be good, that was bullshit to me. But what I did do, which is like not, it's an archetype, but it's not the way it plays out in America. Um, eh, is, I did my work, right? So the question is always, not why do young people go out and drink and have fun?

• 7:22Speaker 00

  But why do some young people especially, and I was definitely one of them, go to ridiculous extremes with it, right? At least what I did in America was extreme, might not be for England, but for America it was. And so it, it's always a question of like, why, right? And then I had to really, I made all this money, I did all this stuff. I basically got to the point where like, everything in my life was perfect, eh, eh, you know, as good as it could be. I was in amazing shape, I had money, I was rich, I was famous, I had girls. And I st- I was way, way better off than when I was poor and anonymous, right? And broke and starving and whatever, but like, I still wasn't that happy, right? I wasn't that content. And so then I had to ask myself, at some point you realize, well, the problem's me, right?

• 8:05Chris Williamson?

  So, what sort of age was this?

• 8:06Speaker 00

  You don't. Huh?

• 8:08Chris Williamson?

  What sort of age was this?

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Thirty-four, thirty-five, it was right after the movie, right? And so you have to make that decision. Do you realize the problem is you or not? Right? And then, most people don't, man. Most people think, no, the problem's always outside of me. So they spend the rest of their lives chasing money, or success, or women, or drugs, or whatever it is they use to run from their emotions. I don't mean that judgmentally, it's just because God knows I was doing it for a long time. But like, or they say, they turn inwards and say, alright, I'm gonna fix my shit. Right? And I started that about thirty, let's call it thirty-five, really, in earnest.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  And, man, that's been a hard road, dude. Like, because it is, it's funny, it's like, I forget the Buddha, there's a quote from Buddha, it's like, you know, it's something about, like, it's not hard to conquer an army, it's hard to conquer yourself, right? And I thought, when I was like twenty-eight, I'm like, the Buddha, I don't know what he's talking about? That was some dude with a bowl and a robe. Shut up, man. Now I'm like, God, that dude was wise. There's a reason people would listen to him for five thousand years, right? Because turning inwards and dealing with your own shit was really hard. And so for me, it started, just at a high level, I started with talk therapy, like psychoanalysis, and that worked for like four years for me really well.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  It gave me a good map of my mind and my emotions, but I didn't really feel a lot, like it didn't, it kind of, I understood what was going on, sort of like having a map of London and walking around the streets of London, totally different things, right? And so that's what, it gave me a map. And then I started working with a shaman for a while, like an energy healer? Not because I thought it would be a good idea, this woman just like, I thought that was nonsense. And this woman did some shit with me once, and like, my wife was like, why are you so different today? I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, no, no, you're way better. And I hadn't told her at all. It sounds like crap, not gonna work with this. Fuck, yeah, there's proof, proof's in the pudding, yeah. Right, exactly, it was actually very frustrating for me. And so I worked with her for about a year.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  That was fine. It worked well. Then it stopped working. And then um I did a few other things here and there. Nothing really worked that well. I mean, I tried everything else. Yoga, whatever, all these other things people try. Didn't work for me. And then the last eighteen months, man, I've made more progress than I probably made the other nine years combined. And that's uh with plant medicines. So like therapeutic, you know, uh psychotherapy, MDMA assisted psychotherapy. You know, and psilocybin assisted and that kind of stuff has just there and it's like it's like a startup where you see like slow growth and all of a sudden we hit the rocket ship. I've hit the rocket ship, I think. And I still haven't really gotten into the serious stuff. It's just gone way better. The last eighteen months for me have been

• 11:03Speaker 00

  amazing, dude, the growth and all. And so how did I get to be where a dad? Well, to answer that question, first I had to I had to decide I wanted. I knew I wanted a family. And then I was like trying to date girls and they're like, eh, they all suck. And then my analyst was like, this is also seeing an analyst. She's like, well, are you, who's the type of woman you want to meet and marry? And so I like listed this woman and she's like, like, it was like this amazing avatar of a woman. And she's like, okay, would that girl want to date you? And I'm like, of course she would. I'm rich and famous.

• 11:36Chris Williamson?

  I'm awesome.

• 11:37Speaker 00

  Right. And she's like, hold on, Tucker. You may be rich and famous, but you're also sleeping with like two girls a week and blah, blah, blah. Why is that girl gonna date you? Why is she gonna be one of many? Why? And I was like, ah, so I had to go through that whole process. I had to get ready to meet my wife. Um, that was, that was the big thing. And and and so like that, dude, it wasn't, most people just fall into this, man. And for me, it was a conscious evolution with a lot of fits and starts and mistakes along the way. Does that answer your question? I kind of rambled a little bit.

• 12:07Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely, man. I got a million doorways open, so I think uh we got lots to delve into. Um firstly, yeah, I I totally, I totally get what you mean. Um I'm currently rereading Mark Manson's models. And he talks, he talks a lot about that, right? About that compatibility, like where are you finding the women that you that you want to date? Where are you going? Like, if you want someone that's intellectual, like going out to the club five nights a week might not be.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Doesn't make sense, right?

• 12:33Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, for sure. And you're actually flipping that on its head. You're like, am I the sort of person that the sort of girl I want to date would want to date? Certainly one of the things-

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Which most guys never even think, ask that question.

• 12:47Chris Williamson?

  But they just presume-

• 12:47Speaker 00

  They never even think of it.

• 12:49Chris Williamson?

  I think that most men, because of the way that dating and romance is popularized, I think that most men presume that their job is to kind of be there. It's like, if I'm here and I'm not fat and my shirt's not got no stuff on it and like the girl turns up like kind of, you know, there's no real, I don't know, it just, I don't think that there's a narrative that men have to follow that's too good for that. But I mentioned before we started, I've kind of been immersed in Tuckamax over the last weekend. I've been traveling a lot, consuming a lot of the stuff that you've put out recently.

• 13:28Chris Williamson?

  One of the things that struck me is that you're very, very prepared to do introspective work and uncover quite ugly truths about yourself, which is something that over the last four years I've taken an almost cathartic pleasure in doing for myself. I've really strangely enjoyed it, that challenge, and-

• 13:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't enjoy it. It's fucking terrible. If you enjoy it, good for you. Like, I enjoy the results of it. I enjoy it being done. The process is never like, oh, let's tear the fucking visor off and look at the hard, fierce truth. It's awful and no one wants, no, I'm not like, let's do that.

• 14:09Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, you're right.

• 14:10Speaker 00

  I do, but I'm not excited about it, ever.

• 14:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the process is uncomfortable. I think my curiosity and my desire to kind of find out why about me, I think is pretty strong. So talk to us about sort of being able to see transparencies, right? Because you were this guy, you had one kind of persona, even if that was you living your truth. And I think that you were, I don't think-

• 14:33Speaker 00

  It was at the time, no doubt, 100%.

• 14:35Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so as that truth starts to change, there'll be parts of you that'll want to cling on to the old you. And, you know, girls that are listening, guys who maybe can't quite resonate with the young party guy will still know this, right? You have these epochs of your life, you have these little sections that you're going through. And you gotta, how do you stop letting go of the last one? You're the guy, you're the party guy, now you're the guy that used to be the party guy, now you're the writer, now you're the, you know what I mean? Like, how do you start to-

• 15:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it's hard, man. So the metaphor, the question, it's funny, man, like I get this all the time. Um, uh, I'm forty-four with three kids and a very mature business. Like, we, you know, we did eight figures in revenue last year. I'm not even a CEO, like, I hired a baller to run my company, right? And so, you know, I live in a huge house, a fucking pool, and a wine cellar, an insured wine cellar, like, all this sort of shit. And I still get the dudes who, uh, like, message me on Instagram or whatever, it's like, "What the fuck, man? Like, when are we gonna get more stories?" And I'm like, my response is always some version of the same. "You played with toys, you played with dolls when you were ten.

• 15:49Speaker 00

  Do you still play with them now that you're twenty-five?" And they're always like, "Ooh." Like, it doesn't even occur to them that, if they think about it, obviously, but it doesn't even occur to them that, like, life has phases and life has seasons. And that certain things make a lot of sense in a certain season, make no sense in any other season, right? And especially with someone who's, like, celebrity or noteworthy, right? Because what happens, people don't realize, like, you have, like, a, okay, ah, you see this with athletes all the time. People have a very emotionally intense relationship with an athlete in one stage of their life.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  Like, they're, let's say, I don't know, whatever, twenty-six to, like, thirty-three. They're like huge, you know, Lionel Messi, or Michael Jordan, or LeBron James, like, these are... And so, like, it doesn't matter how, like, like, for me, that was Michael Jordan when I was a young kid, right? Michael Jordan was the guy. And now Michael's like, you know, his sixties or whatever, he's like, old and disgusting and fat, and he's an asshole his whole life, but now you really know. But still, like, people, like, i- if he was a god to you when you were fifteen, then, like, he's always a god, and you, like, approach him that way, right? You look at him like, and, and, and, and it's very frustrating because you can't... People don't look at you like a person, you're like an object, right?

• 17:12Speaker 00

  And, and so, that's why a lot of those people get stuck, is because...

• 17:19Speaker 00

  They, first of all, they were at their peak then. They're never gonna get bigger, right? In terms of whatever success at basketball, let's just say with Jordan. He's never gonna be bigger at basketball than he was in the late nineties. Just not possible, right? And, um, and then he has people around him who always look at him that way. And so he's stuck there, right? And that almost happened to me. Of course, I was nowhere near as big as Jordan. Uh, but like, and I, you could, you could make that happen. And I'm not talking about just celebrities in anything. You could just be, you know, a good, I don't know. Big in your little social circle, whatever. And it's the same, it's the same dynamic. You, you, you, you know how I always phrase it?

• 17:59Speaker 00

  You can tell a man's peak year in his life because his wardrobe freezes there. Like my grandfather, I could tell what his peak year was. After he died, we cleaned out his closet because he didn't buy anything else from anything past that period. He just froze his wardrobe right there and he didn't change.

• 18:20Chris Williamson?

  You think that's symbolic? He's trying to sort of hold on to that?

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Holding on to that. They hold on to the car, the clothes, whatever, most, right? And that was just something that like, I, I was never like, I tried for a little while to hold on, but I'm like, what am I doing, man? Like this isn't life. This doesn't make sense. And it's not about aging gracefully. It's about growing and evolving and becoming the best version of who you are now. And that's why like, I don't understand these people who are like, man, dude, I love being older, man. Like everything is better, except like physical stuff, basically like. I have more money. I have more wisdom. I have a better friends. I'm, I'm more emotionally together in every single, everything's better in my life, except like.

• 19:07Speaker 00

  You know, I can't deadlift as much anymore.

• 19:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, my knees ache a bit more.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  A shitty athlete now. My knees hurt a little and like that kind of stuff, right? You know, like, uh, I used to be able to have sex, whatever, five nights or five times a night. Now like, man, three is like, not easy for me, right? And like, uh, so yeah, things change, but like, if you, and that's why especially men. That's what a midlife crisis I think is for dudes is they realize that they've, they're, they've made a bunch of bad choices or truths they don't like. And they're stuck and they don't know how to get out. But they won't do what you talked about doing before. They won't look at, they won't ask themselves a hard question. They won't look at the things that they haven't done. The responsibility they haven't taken in their life, they won't make any hard decisions. And so they're stuck.

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Right? And like, that's just. Yeah, dude, it sucks, man, when you get there, but the only way to avoid that is to constantly. Not reinvent, you don't even have to reinvent, man. You have to constantly look at yourself. And, and do your work and your, by work, I mean emotional work. Am I being the best person I can? Am I being honest with myself? Am I taking responsibility for myself? Am I doing these things? And if you're constantly honestly asking yourself these questions, you can't help but grow. You're gonna grow. That's just how it works. And then you change and then, you know, you become. Whatever, hopefully a better and better, better version of yourself. Not always the same though. It's not like.

• 20:38Speaker 00

  There's thing, I'm never gonna be as quote cool as I was when I was twenty nine, right? I- in certain ways. But like, I'm way better in almost every other way.

• 20:48Chris Williamson?

  I think, you know. What's interesting about that is people will find, both men and women, they will find some. Form of success in quotation marks. Some form of effectiveness. Within one particular domain. And then they just continue to double down.

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:06Chris Williamson?

  Double down, double down, double down. And I don't know who the quote's from, you might be able to. Tell me who this is, but. Um, the goal is not to win the game. The goal is to keep on playing.

• 21:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that's from a book called Fennet and Infinite Games. I forget the author. Um, Simon Sinek just wrote his take on that?

• 21:24Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 21:24Speaker 00

  No, no, no, it's not Simon Sinek. No, no, Simon Sinek, Simon's a good friend of mine.

• 21:28Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 21:28Speaker 00

  Simon's book about infinite games, he got, there's a book called Infinite and Infinite Games. Which is like where he got that, a lot of that idea.

• 21:36Chris Williamson?

  Good.

• 21:37Speaker 00

  Um, but it's not cynic. Uh, uh, he gets credit for too much other shit. Don't give him someone else.

• 21:42Chris Williamson?

  That's the problem, isn't it? It's like when people are clever like that, James Altucher is the same. Um, so. Yeah, people have a little bit of success, continue to double down on that. I would stick to this particular thing, but it's not about that. It's about moving on to what is next. And you're right as well, you've touched on the fact that your social circle reinforces that. Right, even your, your fan base, they're not your social circle, but they're like, you're the this guy. You're the party guy, you're the drunk guy, you're the girls, sleeping with girls guy. You're the self-development guy, you're the writer guy. And as you perhaps want to evolve, especially if you have a, a, a being.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  They don't want you to.

• 22:19Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 22:19Speaker 00

  Because their relationship with you is based on, it's objectification. You are something, you nailed it, you are something to them. You are not a person to them at all. Like dude, I could talk about this and fame forever. You are not a person to them at all. Yeah, I mean, like, it's not that, like, it's big, it all boils down to, to me, twelve, Michael Jordan's not a person. He's an, I, I, I idealized basketball god. He's not a human, he's not a man. Right, because a man is flawed and complex and vulnerable and all the, you know, and all these things, right? Michael Jordan's none of those things to me. He is a guy, this is the purpose of myth and gods for humans.

• 22:59Speaker 00

  And because we don't believe, uh, uh, in God anymore, that's just been replaced by celebrities, right? And so that's why they get these idealized, people would use to treat celebrities like this. I'd be treating them well and high status is a different thing than this idealized worship.

• 23:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I'll tell you what, I, you, I know that you touched on CrossFit as well, right? You've done a little bit of CrossFit anytime, so you'll understand this. Because CrossFit is such a fast-changing sport, you can tell who, um, how long they've, someone's been doing CrossFit by who their favorite athlete is. It's like, oh, you're a Rich Froning guy, or you're a Jason Kalipa, or you're a Matt Fraser guy, like, do you know what I mean? And it's such a fast-moving sport, it's kind of the same. Um, so, man, I've got a million doors, doorways open, but one of the things I really want to get, get into is, um, you're quite a cerebral person, from what I can tell. You like to be able to rationalize, you can rationalize, you're sufficiently clever to be able to do that. A lot of the time, when we think that we're doing the work, you've spoken about this, right? Do the work, uncover your hidden biases.

• 23:58Chris Williamson?

  What are the motives that are guiding your life? What are the things that you need to work on? What are the things that you need to do? But if you are sufficiently cerebral, or you can tell yourself good enough stories, a lot of the time, you can come up with something which is a proxy for the truth. This isn't actually doing the work, but it's close enough for me to feel like I'm satisfied in doing the work. It's like McDonald's versus food, right? It's like it fills you up, but it's kind of not nutritious.

• 24:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:24Chris Williamson?

  How do we talk about that?

• 24:26Speaker 00

  Well, dude, I mean, that's, that's the trap, right? I forget the quote, it was somebody like, it was somebody like the Buddha, or someone, one of his many, many disciples, who said that the cleverest trick of the ego is to bend spirituality to its wishes, right? And so like, you see this in people who, I'll give you a really good example. So for years, there was a specific person I'm thinking about, but a couple of people, but really one who's famous. I'm not gonna say his name because he's still a friend of mine. And I've said this to his face, so, but I just don't want to like, you know, uh, put my private conversations within public. But like, he would not shut the fuck up about ayahuasca.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Like, just every conversation I had with this dude, ayahuasca this, and ayahuasca that, and ayahuasca, you gotta do ayahuasca. And like, I don't mind someone like, oh yeah, you know, I, I don't think it's wise to talk about psychedelics that way. You shouldn't recommend them to people, talk about your experience and let them come do it on their own. But like, we knew each other well enough where it was fine. But like, his life was fucked up, man. I kept like telling him, dude, your life is a mess. And if you're telling me to do this, it makes me not want to do it. And so like, I didn't do it for a long time because like, I got associated it with him and his mess, right? And so, so like, to bring it back to your question, um,

• 25:56Speaker 00

  It's called, in what I realized, like, once I got deeper into that realm and I got to the real practice, like, he was new to it. I got to the real practitioners who've been doing it ten or twenty years and who were serious.

• 26:07Chris Williamson?

  Plant medicine.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  And like, yeah, yeah, plant medicines. And like ayahuasca shamans and other shamans, they have a name for what he, what he was doing. They call it spiritual bypass. Right? And basically, it's the people who use these medicines to get the experience of very, to feel spiritual and to feel like they had something happen, but not do any of the actual underlying, what you were talking about before, the really hard emotional work, facing your shadow, right? Realizing things you've done, taking accountability for your actions, all owning your shit, right? And so like, that's when I was like, oh, once that got explained to me, I'm like, okay,

• 26:48Speaker 00

  my problem's not with him, it's with how he's acting, and I, I could actually do this right. It's not, I get it. So, um, dude, that's one of the hardest things, man. I can't tell you how, and the worst part is the smarter you are, like, your defenses are as smart as you, right? And so like, oh dude.

• 27:06Chris Williamson?

  It's a never-ending war between you and your smarter brain, yeah.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, your ego is designed to keep you alive, right? To keep you safe. And the main tool it has to keep you alive is stasis. It wants to keep you the same, because if you're alive now, right, doing what you're doing, changing is a risk of death. And, yeah, and so like, it doesn't want you to change, not because it's against you. It's just like, imagine like, you know, like, the, the super conservative, hyper risk averse mom. That's your ego, right? And so like, what you have to do, what I've had to do, is, um, Learn to get in a di- I have to see it first.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Understand, oh shit, my brain is tricking me. My ego, the part, my part of ego, part of my brain is tricking me to stop me from growing and changing. Right? And, and, and then I get in a dialogue and it's like, okay, hold on, like, you, you have to realize there's different parts of your brain that have different agendas. And it's actually great, like they all work in balance. The movie, um, Inside Out from Pixar is an amazing example of this. Like, have you seen that movie?

• 28:21Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  I, it, it's like, you think Pixar is a kid's movie. It's an amazing movie because it shows you how like sadness, happy, joy, anger, like these are all, uh, discussed. Your core emotions all have very important purposes and work together, right? And then when they get in a balance, they get messed up. But like, it's, it, it, it's really, really, really, really hard to do that, man. To really understand, there is a part of me trying to keep me the same. And it's a good valuable part. I just need to not listen to it all the time. Because if I want to grow, I've got to change, right? And then I've got to take that risk. Um, dude, that took me, I don't know how long it took me.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  I, I did a, a session that was with obviously a very experienced guy. Um, with a specific type of medicine that, uh, kind of created an ego death. Like where your ego really does die in you. And dude, it was crazy, man. As I was going into this, this is like a serious, serious one, uh, psychedelic. And, um, I, I heard myself. I thought I was thinking, they tricked you. This is your new reality. You're going to get stuck here. You're going to die, right? I thought I was thinking that.

• 29:39Chris Williamson?

  Exactly what you want, just as you're entering a trip.

• 29:42Speaker 00

  Right, and a big one too. Um, and so like, of course, I'm like freaked out, whatever. But at that point, I'm pretty experienced. I was with people I knew and trusted in the same environment. So like, I was able to kind of surrender and let go. It wasn't until a few days later, I was like, hold on a minute. That was my fucking ego dying. That was like, oh my god, and that's when I realized like, the, the, the trick the ego plays on you is that it convinces, it convinces you that it is you. That you and your ego are the same thing, and they are not. It's a part of you, it's an important part of you. It can just be destructive if you listen too much. That's what the Buddhists mean when they say you are the observer, not the speaker. Right?

• 30:25Speaker 00

  Is they're saying the real, the true self is the self that sees and observes and experiences. And the ego and all these other parts of you, um, are different parts of your brain. That like are part of you, but not you. And I, dude, I'm still trying to figure this out now. Like, it's like, I'm not like some, you know, Zen monk that's been doing this for forty years, right? Like, I'm eighteen months in, but it all made sense. And as soon as I, as soon as I understood that, then, then I started like really kind of essentially talking to myself in a different, like a crazy person sort of, but in a different way and realizing, oh, okay. I'm afraid of that, or I'm, I'm, I'm telling myself I don't want to do that. It's like, hold on, why am I doing that?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  Because, uh, you know, like, uh, what's a good example?

• 31:13Speaker 00

  My mom, right? I don't have a good relationship with my mom. I just kind of like, that all came to a head. Like, and, and so, long, long story short, I hadn't talked to her in twelve years. And so, I realized I needed to reach out to her, and I, I didn't want to. And so I had this whole sort of like battle with myself, right? And I realized, the ego's like, no, don't reach out to her. No, she was wrong, all these things, these are good arguments. But I was like, uh, hold on. You're trying to keep me the same, I get it. Thank you for protecting me, I'm gonna reach out. And then like we didn't meet up, but because of the dynamics around it, I was able to just let that go. I had all this shit resentment, anger and I was able to let all that go because I didn't listen to my ego there. Does it make sense?

• 31:57Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely, man, absolutely. What it sounds like recently, you you made a graph for the people that were listening, you you talked about a graph. You can imagine one that's going up exponentially. It's getting more and more as time goes on and the increases are getting greater as well. When you talked about your progress and you were highlighting the fact that the plant medicines really kind of supercharged that over the last eighteen months. Um, yeah. One thing that I'm fascinated by is this period we're talking about. Um, for men, and I can't speak for women, but it might happen for for girls as well. Um, but for men, you know, maybe between mid to late twenties to hopefully mid thirties. Where something happens, they'd start to realize like, I need to kind of let go of that last, that past version of myself.

• 32:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 32:37Chris Williamson?

  Do you think that you can make, you can have these insights and you can have that conversation with the ego? Without doing some of the work first, you know, for instance, can I just dive into plant medicine? Is it just going to enlighten me? Or could you have, could you be where you are now without having done nine years of psychotherapy and meditation, yoga, blah, blah?

• 32:58Speaker 00

  It's hard to say, man, it really is. It depends on the person, dude.

• 33:01Chris Williamson?

  So you're not certain though, you could have done.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Alright, so I know a girl who is totally in touch with her emotions and like doesn't take any of this stuff and she's fine. And people like Michael Singer, uh, you know, who wrote the Untethered Soul, like, you know, huge book. That dude just sat in a fucking swamp and meditated two hours a day, right? And got there. And so, no, no, you do not need plant medicines to get there. I do not think you do. But are they really helpful for a lot of people? Yes. Were they, at this point for me and all the trauma that I've been through, were they basically a necessity for me? Yeah, I think. Um, I maybe assessing, maybe I don't know. They worked though. Hmm. And, and they were amazing for me. And again, we're talking about two different things.

• 33:45Speaker 00

  Using psychedelics and plant medicines to heal and using them to, let's call it, um, expand your mind and uh, reach higher levels of consciousness. They're very related, but they're not the exact same thing. I have been mainly focused on using psychedelics and plant medicines to heal trauma and to, to connect with myself better. Now, by default, I've had some consciousness raising and seen some crazy stuff and whatever. Uh, but like, that's not been my focus. And a lot of people who start with psychedelics, I think, start there. Like, let's do five M A O D N T and talk to aliens and shit. Yeah. Right? And it's like, look, you can start there, but that's like learning to swim in the middle of the Pacific.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Like, I guess you could do it, but probably not what you'd recommend, man. Yeah. Like, that's why I started with MDMA, cause it's so safe. It's so gentle. It's so effective on, on trauma. And like, and it's like, it's a, it's like learning to swim in the kiddie pool, you know? Hmm. Um, so yeah, man, like, if you wanna, if you don't wanna be stuck, if you're afraid of being stuck, it's very, very simple. It's very simple to understand. Um,

• 35:00Speaker 00

  the reason you're stuck is because you're holding on, trying to hold on to something that you can't hold on to. Right? So then just understand you gotta let go. And the only thing you can do is ride the waves, not hold on to a thing that is unholdable. And surfing's a great, uh, um, metaphor. Like, imagine trying to like, say, alright, this awesome wave that I'm on, I'm just gonna stay on this wave. And you would look at them like, are you retarded? Like, it's gonna hit the beach. It's not possible. You can't ride a wave forever. Because waves aren't forever. But yeah, and life is the same way. It really is the exact same way.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  So whatever phase you're in, now, I'm not saying don't bail on the wave until you have to. If you got a good wave and you're on it, ride it. Ride it for as long as you can. But when it's over, let it go. Same thing with whatever phase of life you're in.

• 35:57Chris Williamson?

  I get it, man. You're totally right. I think what's interesting when we start to strip away persona, right, we're looking at who we are. Hang on, I'm now attached to something that I was, but I no longer am. I need to update my software. I'm now about to be a dad. I'm becoming a dad. I want to get a girlfriend who could become my wife. All of these things. The frustrating thing that I've found over the last four years is it's like a passer parcel. Like you strip away some of the wrapping paper and then underneath the wrapping paper, there's some more wrapping paper and you just keep on going and you're like, fuck, I thought, like you just keep on tearing it off and you're like, no, this, this got to be the last one. This has to be the, like below this, it's got to be the last one. And then you just keep on going,

• 36:39Chris Williamson?

  keep on going, keep on going. It's just all wrapping paper. I wonder if that's the game.

• 36:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, realizing there's nothing there. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's what not just the Buddhists, but almost any tradition will tell you. Like at the end of the day that, look, the, the, it's funny, the last 18 months, I've done so much reading into a lot of people I hadn't really paid a close attention to before, people like Rumi, Jesus. I knew a lot of Buddhism, but like really kind of diving in to different, different angles. And what's funny is they all say the same thing. Like they really say the exact same thing. Buddha said, everything you, uh, uh, everything you need, everything you require, you have in you. Jesus said, the kingdom of heaven is within.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Rumi said, all the stars in the galaxy, um, all the stars in the sky are nothing compared to, um, the, the, the journey inward or something like that. They all said the exact, all the great avatars said the exact same thing. That everything you need, you have inside. It's just a matter of going inward, doing that work. You know, that's it. That's all it is, man. Like it, it's, I feel like if, if anyone's listening to this and think this dude's an idiot or a crazy person, I get it because two years ago, I would have said the same thing with some of this. I would have, man. But it's

• 38:07Speaker 00

  like, oh, fuck, once you get it, it makes total sense. And, and so now it's like,

• 38:15Speaker 00

  It's funny too, man, because like we were pretty successful two years ago, but my like the success and stuff I'm doing is just going up, up, up, up. And it's like, it's gone up in almost direct proportion to how much I've let go of not working, right? Like I'm here, I'm doing a podcast. I do I not working, but trying, holding on to, I've got to have this, or I've got to have that, or I'm trying to orchestrate that, or this is the thing I need to succeed. And understanding that I have it, you know, it's all right here. And that whether I succeed or fail is essentially both a story I tell myself and a feeling I have, and that I actually get to control that. And I get to decide that. It sounds so trite from the outside, man, but

• 39:00Speaker 00

  once you get it, it just clicks.

• 39:03Chris Williamson?

  How do you marry that very holistic view with failures and success in life with the fact that you need to get up and do the grind?

• 39:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think you have to grind. If you're grinding, you're doing it wrong.

• 39:18Chris Williamson?

  How so?

• 39:19Speaker 00

  Because by definition, a grind is awful.

• 39:23Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 39:24Speaker 00

  No, seriously, like, you know what my days are, man? I'll be on my Mondays sometimes are a little bit of a grind because they got a lot of calls, a lot of things like this. And some of them I like, like this conversation is pretty cool. Not all of them. So like, there's always, I have not fully here. But my life now is 80 ish, 80% things that I love doing, things that energize me. Like, if you want a rubric, um, manage your energy, right? The things that energize you, do those. The things that don't energize you, either don't do, or if you have to do them, pay someone to do them who's energized by them. Like, the idea

• 40:08Speaker 00

  that I would have to like work, put numbers in a spreadsheet, like put a bullet in my brain. But the two accountants at my company love it. They just like, it's like their thing, right? So we hired people that, you know, that do that. And like, we trade, and it's great, you know? They don't like talking to people. I'm real good at that. So, yeah. So, but we both spend our days doing things that energize us, right? And I think most people don't do that. They load their brain with shoulds. I should do that, shoulds and haves, have to do this, should do that. It's a fucking story in your head, man. I've yet to meet a person who's like really truly has a should or have story that can't be broken down. And I know there's a million people

• 40:52Speaker 00

  probably listen, oh, well, mine's different. You're not any fucking different, man. I had all those things and I'm a better arguer than you are.

• 41:03Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, we get back to the brain being able to convince us of pretty much anything, right?

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 41:08Chris Williamson?

  I recently had Kamal Ravikant on and he was, he's got this lovely, he's a good guy, man. Um, had, he's got the three steps of how he sees life. Life happens to me. Life happens for me. Life happens through me. Right? And it's that it ties into a victim mentality. It ties into leaning into discomfort, which is one of my favorite sayings. It talks about leaning to discomfort as if you invited it through the door. You know, it's the, this, this is something that's here. It's here for growth. It's, and um, it all, it's all tied together. I don't know how. I don't know how it all fits together, but it is.

• 41:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm on the cusp of real, I, I feel like I've kind of got it, but not well enough to explain this to anybody, right? But here's the thing with this, man, is I'll tell you the things that I, I have, like I got it.

• 41:58Chris Williamson?

  Cool.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  You can't really truly explain. You can. You can use words, but the gap between understanding and words is big. And so like, um, it's sort of like, imagine, okay, so this is one you can get. No one would think that watching, you can learn about sex from watching porn. You get some information from it, right? But the gap between having sex and watching porn is huge. And you really don't even know how big the gap is to start having sex. Like, oh, wow. Like every, and I mean, everything, the experience of how good it is, how different it is, everything, right, is different. Uh, you can understand how they're related, but they're really totally different. Same thing is true about trying

• 42:41Speaker 00

  to talk about enlightenment, right? The words don't work, you know, and, and like we use words because that's how we communicate. Words and symbols and pictures, but what you and I are talking about right now is experiential. You must walk the path. This is the best Buddhist quote. It is not enough to read the words of Buddha, you must walk his path, right? You have got to do this work to understand it. And you can use other people's experiences and examples and words as guides. That's really helpful, but it is no substitute. Which is, this is the problem with Christianity is that, uh, basically from the Catholic Church onward, the church has tried to replace Jesus's experience.

• 43:26Speaker 00

  Uh, they tried to take his experience and make people substitute a, a, an acted out version of his experience for their experience, right? That's the problem with Christianity is that it's not, you don't experience the, the, the, the feeling you act out Jesus's. You know, that's communion, right? All that sort of shit. Whereas the Buddhists will tell you, no, no, no, you've got to actually do the work. Same with Islam. You don't actually experience it. It's Muhammad's words, right? I think that's bullshit. I think, uh, that was the, really the big thing that psychedelics showed me and that the path is like, oh, I have to experience this. Like that's the irony is I was totally atheist before and now I'm way more, not formal religious, but like way more like, oh, I totally get Jesus now. A hundred percent.

• 44:11Chris Williamson?

  Accepting spirituality.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  No, because like now I've felt it, I've experienced it. Like I got none of that through, through any sort of formal religion. But now I understand what's called an ecstatic experience. Now I totally get it. I know what he's, I know what he meant when he said the kingdom of heaven is within. There was no words you could have explained to me. Then I did, you know, like a massive, uh, uh, dose of mushrooms in a therapeutic setting. I'm like, oh shit, this is what he means. Now it makes sense.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  I totally get what it means. The kingdom of heaven is within. Yes, it is within. He's right.

• 44:45Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. It's interesting that you say that your experiences with psychedelics have caused you to become slightly more spiritual and religiously minded, or at least religiously accepting. One of the co-hosts of the show, Youssef, was Muslim until around about 22, 23, and then a psychedelic trip caused him to recant religion overnight, which-

• 45:08Speaker 00

  Former religion, of course. Absolutely. I totally get it. Yeah, no doubt. Because all it is, think of it, it's just someone standing between you and an experience and telling you, you have to rely on me to tell you what the experience is. Fuck you, I can go do it myself.

• 45:23Chris Williamson?

  The interpreter that's trying to make it. I really appreciate what you said as well about the, how words can't really describe the sensation, especially for me, someone who prides himself on being precise with his speech. I try and be, I try and articulate, right? I try and be lucid. I try and do these things, but they're just proxies for the notion that we have. They're just a real, this thing-

• 45:45Speaker 00

  The proxies for experiences.

• 45:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And I'm like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to get it out. And the words, even words themselves, read 1984, right? Read 1984, and that tells you all that you need to know about how language is related to the thoughts that we have in our brains. If you remove, if you don't, if you don't have the words, the thoughts essentially don't, they never get communicated. They don't exist. They don't exist outside of ephemeral, nebulous, cloudy little notions in our heads.

• 46:11Speaker 00

  They're experiences is what they are.

• 46:13Chris Williamson?

  But they're only ever yours. Can't communicate them.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  No, I get it.

• 46:17Chris Williamson?

  You mentioned about the two paths to do with psychedelic therapy. One being consciousness raising, one being more therapeutic. What is it that is making that determination? Is it intention going in? Is it set and setting? Is it dosage? Is it a combination?

• 46:35Speaker 00

  It's a lot of those things, man. It really is. But so-

• 46:42Speaker 00

  When I say therapeutic, I mean like, yeah, like basically figuring out what your trauma is and then, um, or your stuck emotions, call it, because all really trauma is, is unfelt emotion, unfelt feeling. And so, uh, it's essentially making it easier for you to feel that so that you can then let it go. Right? And psychedelics make that with the right guidance and the right intention, the right set and setting, the right psychedelics. There's not all are good at that. Uh, but, but, um, the ones that are good at that are fucking magical, dude. Like MDMA is amazing at it. Lower dose mushrooms tend to be pretty good at it. LSD can be in certain areas.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Um, there's others, like, I mean, I'm not the expert on that side. I know it pretty well, but I'm not the dude you would call to be the expert. Um, but like, uh, um, I, if you do the mind expansion and consciousness expansion stuff without the trauma work beforehand, it's doable, but you're, it's sort of like, um, getting a really nice car and taking it for a fast drive with the windshield like dirty, you know? Like it, it, it makes it a lot harder. It can be, it can, first off, that's how you can get really dark stuff. Like that's what a quote bad trip is, is you take a bunch of LSD and it's, the LSD didn't do anything to you. It brought up a lot of stuff you have in you and you aren't ready or willing to deal with it. That's what a bad trip is.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  There's a few exceptions that are very rare or whatever with, but for most people, that's what a bad trip is. And so like, um,

• 48:19Speaker 00

  that's why for most people, um, it's, you want to do your work first. It's like, it's sort of like, you know, um, the way I think about it just for shorthand is like, uh, I gotta clean my house before I try and go talk to God. Right? And so it's like, I'm not gonna go talk to God with a dirty house. And so I gotta get my house at least in order. Doesn't have to be perfect, but I gotta get everything put away. I gotta get all, all cleaned. Once my house is in order, then I can go take my meeting, you know?

• 48:49Chris Williamson?

  It seems like to me MDMA is, it's been a number of clinical trials now for it being used for PTSD therapy, being used for a lot of different, a lot of different things. Um, for me, my experience, I've never taken MDMA in my life without being drunk in a club. That's it. Like, you know what I mean? It's not a therapeutic drug to me. It doesn't even speak of psychedelic in

• 49:10Speaker 00

  nature. It's not a psychedelic. It's not a psychedelic. It's not even in that class. It's a totally different molecular compound.

• 49:17Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  Um, it's not at all. But dude, when you take it in a city, I know a lot of people who used to do like a gram of MDMA a weekend or crazy stuff like that, right? Like a lot. And then they, they, uh, you know, they, they went through that phase and now they're, they're out and they do it therapeutically. And it's like, they're like, oh my God, I had no idea. Like it's a totally, totally different experience.

• 49:38Chris Williamson?

  That's fascinating. That is really, really fascinating. I really hope that it gets rolled out more. I think it's got a lot of.

• 49:43Speaker 00

  It'll be legal in, in probably in America. It's actually, there's a few places where you can do it compassionate care licenses. Those clinics are being open this year. It'll be widely legal in 2021 and 2022, probably. It's already in state street clinical trials.

• 49:58Chris Williamson?

  For therapeutic use.

• 50:00Speaker 00

  With a prescription and all that sort of stuff. Yeah.

• 50:03Chris Williamson?

  Got you. Okay. Um, you mentioned, so one of the, um, flags in the ground of your life of the transition from old, uh, tucker to new tucker was, um, when you said that you were kind of giving up fratire, which was this particular type of, uh, writing that you done. Um, and since then, am I right in thinking the only thing that you've brought out is this scribe method? Is that right?

• 50:30Speaker 00

  Uh, no, I, I wrote a book with Jeff Miller called, um, What Women Want, which is like the instructional guide for guys about how to deal with women, how to understand women, how to deal with women. I talked to them about if you become attracted to them, all that sort of stuff. It's the best book on that subject by far in the marketplace. We did a pretty poor job positioning it and, and marketing it. That book is like the. The best example ever that product doesn't beat marketing all the time. Right? Like there's all these idiots that have all this dumb shit stuff out there that they market the hell out of. And like, um, we didn't want to approach it that way. And like, so we ended up like, we wrote the best book. It's by far the best info. Like the dudes who read it and a lot do.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  That we get, I get an email every week from a guy. I was like, oh my God, I saw all this money, all these and it was all it has changed my life or whatever. The problem with the book, man, is that we don't play the it's not your fault game. We don't blame women for problem. We don't play up to the most toxic emotions in dudes. And so like it, it's very, it's, it's a lot harder to sell personal responsibility and accountability. It's a lot harder to sell hard, like real hard work. And it's hard to sell facing your problems and things like that, which is what we, we do in there. But what's funny is like, I told dudes, I'm like, listen, you want to have the life I have? Go, go do this book.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  That's it, man. You want to be married to a, a, an incredible, amazing woman who's hot? Have a bunch of kids with her, have a, a, all bunch of money. Uh, you know, whatever, whatever, however, I'm not, the details of my life don't matter, right? Cause like some people don't give a shit about wine.

• 52:13Chris Williamson?

  Whatever success looks like by the metrics you've made.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Looks like to you.

• 52:17Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  It's here. You just have to do the work. It's not complicated. It's just difficult.

• 52:24Chris Williamson?

  Isn't it fascinating that you, you wrote a book that was positioned to virtuously for it to capitalize on its own, on its own success? Yeah, that's really interesting. So the guys, there's a, a video going around Twitter today from, you know, the guys from 21 convention. Do you know what that is?

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Yes, yes.

• 52:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the dude behind that, um, forget his name, which kind of says it all. Uh, dude behind the 21 convention thing was on a British talk show this morning with Piers Morgan. You'll know who Piers Morgan is. Piers kind of doesn't really pull his punches. And him and him and this female co-host just tear this guy's ass all out. Like absolutely annihilate him about all of the, he's wearing a make women great again hat. And he's just everything that's wrong with like the whole sort of manosphere.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  It's almost too easy of a target, man. It's like, of course you could make fun of this idiot.

• 53:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, he's like the, he's like the Colby Covington UFC fighter of like, and I'm like, fuck man, like this isn't WWE. You're supposed to be putting yourself across as a legitimate man development, male development place.

• 53:29Speaker 00

  I mean, if you're gonna play the heel, the bad guy, at least do a good job. Like Conor McGregor does a good job of that, right? Um, like there's a, there's a way to do that when you can do a good job. They're just, it's, they're too dumb or too emotionally undeveloped to actually do it well, you know?

• 53:48Chris Williamson?

  And I'm like, I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get Rollo Tomasi on. I really, really want to have a discussion with Rollo. I want to find out.

• 53:55Speaker 00

  Who's, I don't know who that is.

• 53:56Chris Williamson?

  Guy that wrote The Rational Male. So he's widely, uh, sort of earmarked as the person who began the red pill movement for men. Um, it seems like he's genesis for that, or at least that's why it's, that's why it's called online. And, um, I got a few, I got a few questions for that, which, which today's helped to inform me about.

• 54:15Speaker 00

  In my experience, man, in my experience, those dudes are, all of them are extraordinarily broken. And they just blame their shit on everyone else. And like, even the ones, no, there's ones that make really good arguments about a lot of things, right? And so it's not like because they're broken, all their arguments are wrong. That's bullshit. Like you can, like, you could all, so many good points about a lot of stuff. And, and it's not like the other side, it's not like the fucking social justice warriors are any better. They're just as awful. They're just as broken. They're just as, uh, victim mindset or worse. But like those dudes, like, it's like they, they get their little, like any of them, they get their little echo chamber. And it's like, oh, it's not your fault. It's not your fault either. Okay. We'll be broken and lonely together.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  And it's like, all right, dude, then go have your shitty life. It's fine with me.

• 55:03Chris Williamson?

  Look at the way that, what, what we spoke about twice, two different situations that have come up in this conversation. The first one is, um, how you find that nuance and that understanding in yourself, right? Doing the work on yourself, your truthfulness and stuff like that. And that not actually being quite as polarizing and some people not really even responding to that as much. You know, you were the party guy, you were the this guy, you were the that guy. And then the second thing being the book. The book which delivered a more nuanced, more deeper, more truthful, more transparent, more difficult to swallow pill. Both of those things kind of jar with people sometimes, but the easy to swallow, single

• 55:46Chris Williamson?

  line, single tweet length synopsis is more effective. Man, I wish it wasn't the case. Look, we're going to talk about the scribe method and everything else, but you guys launched David Goggins' book. If there's people that are listening who want to learn how to write a book, 500 pages? Is that the scribe method PDF?

• 56:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, just honestly, so we have like, look, if you want to pay someone to do it all for you, we're the company, but most people I'm sure can't, just go to scribebookschool.com. Everything that we do with our clients who pay us five and six figures to work with them, we explain all of it and lay it all out in detail. So if you don't have money, but you have time, it's all there for free. Go do it yourself, no problem.

• 56:32Chris Williamson?

  And you said this beautiful quote, which I've heard from you, which says, "Everybody has wisdom inside of them, they just need to get it down onto a page." Something along those lines.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  They have to get it out. You can use video too, there's nothing wrong. Video's great, man. We're about to launch a big YouTube channel, but we just do books. Books are a big way, a really specific way. They're not the only way.

• 56:52Chris Williamson?

  And you got a specialist, you're a specialist in that, right? That's your background?

• 56:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:57Chris Williamson?

  Awesome, man. Tukka, if people want to hassle you online, where should they go?

• 57:00Speaker 00

  Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook. I'm not hard to find.

• 57:05Chris Williamson?

  Glorious. Thanks, man.