Overcoming Low Self-Esteem In Business & Life | Elena Seranova | Modern Wisdom Podcast 186

Elena Seranova is a business coach, entrepreneur & PhD student. Many of us could do achieve far more if only we had the confidence to go after what we want. Getting out of your own way therefore becomes a goal in itself. Expect to learn how to use confidence to gain a competitive advantage, the common stumbling blocks Elena sees when working with clients on confidence, a selection of embarrassing stories from our history in academia & business and much more... Sponsor: Shop Eleiko’s full range at https://www.shop.eleiko.com (enter code MW15 for 15% off everything) Extra Stuff: Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ Check out Elena's Website: https://guildofgrowth.com/ Grow Your Confidence Mentorship: https://guildofgrowth.com/collections/mentorships/products/self-sabotage-elimination-and-confidence-growth-bootcamp Follow Elena on Twitter: https://twitter.com/ESeranova #selfesteem #confidence #entrepreneurship - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  You really need to focus on the positives and you really need to accept your situation as well, because what I see in a lot of my clients is that they really love complaining and they really love blaming the circumstances for what's happening to them. If you want to take action, nothing will happen. And this is what should motivate you.

• 0:26Chris Williamson?

  Elena, how are you?

• 0:28Speaker 00

  Yes, I'm very good. Thank you. How are you?

• 0:30Chris Williamson?

  Very good. Pleasure to have you here. So what are we, what are we going to be talking about today?

• 0:35Speaker 00

  Okay, so today I think we're going to be emphasizing the importance of self-improvement and basically growing your confidence in order to achieve better results in both entrepreneurship and personal life. Because what happens is that, like, I see this very often in my work is that people with low self-esteem, like, just get caught up in negative feedback loops, up in action and failure. And as a result, they can't achieve the results that they want.

• 1:05Chris Williamson?

  What is your job?

• 1:07Speaker 00

  Okay, so I have, I do have an interdisciplinary background. And I basically, I started studying psychology. So my major was in psychology. Then I opened up my first consulting business, which was a successful business for five years. And it grew to a wellness center. I then pursued my master's degree in the neuroscience and genetics. And I fell in love with science. So I co-founded a biotech startup after this. And eventually, I ended up doing a PhD in stem cell biology. And at the moment, I'm on my final year, writing my thesis. And I just launched my third business, which is the Guild of Growth. And I offer one-on-one

• 1:49Speaker 00

  mentorship for new and aspiring entrepreneurs on business strategy, mindset of success, and confidence growth.

• 1:56Chris Williamson?

  Wow, that is, you are a busy woman. You're a very busy woman.

• 2:02Speaker 00

  Yes, I am indeed.

• 2:04Chris Williamson?

  So, okay, we're talking about confidence, how that relates, how self-esteem relates to people's success, both professionally and personally. What are some of the common challenges that you see when you're working with your clients?

• 2:21Speaker 00

  So first of all, what happens is that when your self-esteem is low, usually you can't even start taking action because of your subconscious blocks and the fact that you think that you're not actually worthy of taking action and improving your situation and, you know, going after the goals that you really want. So it all starts with the feeling of self-worth and the fact that most of people don't actually feel that they're worthy of positive changes in their lives. And the reason behind this is that they actually are not doing anything extraordinary, anything good, in order to prove to themselves and their subconscious mind that they are worthy

• 3:03Speaker 00

  of a positive change, you know. So it all starts with inaction. And I keep on seeing this again and again. And I recently tweeted something along the lines that nine out of 10 people around you, they are actually, they're just doing their bare minimum. Okay, so the competition is very, very low. The bar is set very, very low right now. And it's crazy because like we live in such an amazing era where like the whole planet is connected online and you have access to infinite free resources online in order, you know, to get out there and become financially independent and, you know, become the best version of yourself,

• 3:47Speaker 00

  you know. You want to lose weight, there is a bunch of tutorials online, you know, you want to make money, there is like hundreds of, you know, ways to make money online nowadays. You just need to actually decide that you want to take action and then you need to... Just basically start and most people don't even start and it really hurts me. You know, this is the reason why I started the Guild of Growth because I've been so right now. As I said, I'm on my first year of PhD. And so I've been in an academic environment for the past like three and a half years. And, you know, we've been talking with friends and, you know, colleagues in academia that have great business ideas,

• 4:31Speaker 00

  but they have no idea where to start and they kept on asking me different kinds of things. They they kept on asking me like different tips, how to start, where to find the resources to start, how to, you know, like take a business off the ground. And, you know, they literally kept telling me, Elena, okay, you should start a podcast or you should start a Facebook group or something. And then I realized that, yes, like I do need to kind of, you know, put some, put this knowledge out there. Because like through both my first business, which was running for five years and my biotech startup, I learned this, this process of basically imperfect massive action. And that if you want to start, if you want to take action today, nothing will happen, you know?

• 5:15Speaker 00

  And it's just so simple and you've probably heard this before, but you know, not, not many implemented.

• 5:22Chris Williamson?

  What surprises me is seeing people, so you're talking about some of the other academics that you spend your time with, these people are so competent. They've got so many talents. I'm around tons and tons of people who I look at, I'm like, oh my God, like you're so well educated, wise in a particular discipline, have this, this, this, this and this. But you're totally correct. If you multiply by zero and that zero is no action, then

• 5:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:52Chris Williamson?

  everything that came before hits a very, very hard brick wall. And I love, I love the idea that nine out of 10 people are doing the bare minimum to get by. Therefore, the bar is set very low. I think you're sadly, I think that you're very right. I can't speak for other countries, but certainly in the UK.

• 6:11Chris Williamson?

  There is a lack of agency, of upward mobility, of people's desire to become sovereign individuals, you know, and just do their thing. And this doesn't matter. This isn't me saying like, oh, everybody should become an entrepreneur. Like, this isn't me saying that. It's just me, it's just me saying that you can take control of your own growth, either personally or professionally, financially, fitness wise, whatever it might be, you are in control. And yeah, I think you've hit on a couple of really interesting points there. So you mentioned that you had a process, a framework, a plan. Can you take us through that?

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, sure. Can I just comment on what you just said first? Because I think I have a couple of more interesting points there. So you're absolutely right. And I think that this frame of mind is prevalent in most countries today, really. And the other thing is that the academics, so people that have, you know, have been through an undergrad degree, and then they proceed with a master's degree and a PhD, they're all very, very smart. But what happens is that they don't really have this real life experience outside academia. So they're really focused on their science. And the truth is that research demands you to be really, really committed and

• 7:30Speaker 00

  spend a lot of hours in the lab, or, you know, doing your literature, things like this. So they actually don't really know that there is this, this amazing world out there. And, you know, our world is rapidly changing, and it has, like, it's changed dramatically over the past decade, you know, like 15 years ago, there was no YouTube. So there were no resources. And like, it all starts at a young age. So for instance, our parents, like, they don't even understand the concept of making money online, you know, and it all starts with school as well, because they don't teach us, you know, like, financial literacy, literacy, basically, at school. So, like, most of people don't even think about it, because no one told them, like, what to think

• 8:15Speaker 00

  about. They don't know what they don't know.

• 8:17Chris Williamson?

  You never know, you can't know what you don't know. That's a very good point. I wonder how much of a difference the children of our era now, so someone who is, you know, between naught and 10 in 2020, I wonder how much different their view professionally and personally of the world and how much of a growth mindset and stuff they will have. Because I certainly feel like millennials, which is technically 84 to 96, I think, they were part of such a corner turn, like such an inflection point, that totally detached

• 9:00Chris Williamson?

  their experience from their parents.

• 9:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:03Chris Williamson?

  That it could happen again. There could be another huge wave of change coming, but something tells me that there probably won't, that I'll probably be able to have more in common with my children's life experiences than my parents do with mine. Do you, what do you think about that?

• 9:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because the thing is that the turning point for our generation, for the millennial generation, was basically the internet and the fact that, you know, like the whole way of living, like half of our, of our, like, time that we spend a week is probably online now, you know, and especially in the view of the recent events, everyone, like, there is like a vast majority of people that is working online now and they're transitioning online. And there will be a bunch of people that, you know, will be working on their side hustles and their online incomes right now while being at their nine to five. So they will probably, they won't have this desire to actually go back to their nine to five.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  And I think that, like, what internet really brings is the decentralization of professionalism. And, you know, like, we're, we're getting into this gig economy, and I think that it's here to stay. And, you know, everyone will be their own boss, or the vast majority of people will keep on being their own boss in the future. And I think this is what will be, what will be present in the next generation as well.

• 10:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think so. David Perel, one of my favorite bloggers, past Modern Wisdom guest, has this thing where he says, "Your side hustle has a side hustle," which is this like multivariate stream of income world that some people have ventured into. And right now, you are seeing those that did have multiple streams of income, perhaps an income from property, perhaps something that was more web-based, perhaps some investments and other bits and pieces. They're the ones who have the most robust financial makeups and perhaps even an anti-fragile makeup if they've been particularly clever and had foresight. And some people might be making more money right now. I know a ton of people that are making

• 11:11Chris Williamson?

  more money on their internet businesses because everyone's spending like, screen time's probably gone up by like 100%, which is crazy. So let's get on to your framework. We've got people that are listening. They think, "Yeah, this sounds great. I'd like to become a sovereign individual with high agency and a bunch of other stuff." But inaction, imposter syndrome, I don't know where to start. Where do we even begin?

• 11:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Okay, so the first step is to recognize that the current system of action that you have in place does not produce the results that you want. Okay, so once you realize this and once you understand that with your current actions, your trajectory is not taking you where you want to go. Okay, so this is the first step. And the second step would be to define a clear plan of action and actually ask yourself, because like, again, like what happens today is that everything is Google-able. Okay, so like 98% of the information that you need in order to become successful is out there. Okay, maybe it's even 100%.

• 12:18Speaker 00

  Like for most people, it's 100%. Okay, like you need to dig a bit, but you know, I'm sure that you'll be able to find the information that you actually need in order to start something and create something from nothing. And in terms of business, what happens is that there are three core aspects. That can all be built online nowadays. And first, you need to know what your customers want. And like the mistake that most individuals do is that they start working on an idea that they think is really great and it actually solves a solution. It solves a problem that that people have. And it provides a particular solution, but what happens is that they're not really validating it.

• 13:03Speaker 00

  And nowadays, again, with the social media, you can get so much validation for your idea. You know, you just send out a bunch of questionnaires out there and you see what happens and you see what is, you know, the the the product or the service that can be marketed to to a thirsty market in order to, you know, to cover a need and solve a problem. And then what you do is you polish this product or service. And again, like now, it's easier than ever to create digital products and provide services online, things like this. So once you realize what the customer wants, what the market wants, you can basically move into creating a product or service that is desirable.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  And then the next step, the the third step, is to create a distribution channel. And again, nowadays, like it's easier than ever to to create a distribution channel. So one example could be a YouTube channel, right? That provides very valuable content. And then, you know, you can you can monetize this or a social media account, things like this. But in order to to go a bit back into the the negative feedback loop and the the self-esteem and how to actually start and how to decide that you are worthy of starting, you really need to focus on the positives and and you really need to accept your situation as well. Because what I see in a lot of my clients is that

• 14:31Speaker 00

  they're really love complaining and they're really love blaming the circumstances for what's happening to them. Okay, so in terms of the perspective change, the most important perspective that you need to change is the perspective of yourself and just focus on the existing resources that you have. This might be a skill that, you know, you're honing or anything that you're passionate about. And then really take it from there and. Tell yourself, okay, so it is what it is. Yes, I'm unlucky. You know, my, my parents going through a divorce. Or, you know, I'm, I'm really unhappy in life now. I'm going through a breakup, something like this. But if you want to take action, nothing will happen.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  And this is what should motivate you because once you realize like, look, there are people out there that utilizing like all the online resources that I have access to as well. And you know, it, it should click and basically you should realize that, look, it is what it is. And I, I'll just focus on taking action every single day. And then the second step is, would be to, to be your own accountability partner. And I think that this is another kind of um perspective that can only lead to positive outcomes when you realize that you don't need to be disciplined. Only when you're supervised, you know?

• 15:59Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting at the moment that we have everyone being released from the world of work, right? They no longer have their boss breathing down their neck. They no longer have the structures that disciplined them previously. And um to the people who have had to make that nomadic work from home transition. I um, I feel for you because it took me a decade to work out how to manage myself. And you've just been expected to do it. The, the world stopped. Everyone's like, right, got to work from home now. And you're like, oh, hang on. What time do I get up? Where do I work from? How do I, am I supposed to get dressed? When do I have a coffee? When do I go for a break? Have I worked too much? Have I worked too little?

• 16:41Chris Williamson?

  You know, it's, it's real challenging. Um, there's a, a ton of different things that you went through there that I thought was interesting. I like the idea that um your current outcomes being an indicative of your current inputs. And that if you're not, if you're not getting the outcomes that you want, you have to presume that something is going wrong with the inputs. Now, you're right. There are people out there who get head starts, people out there who get, what's the opposite of a head start? Whatever that is, whatever that is, a head, a bum, a bum start. I don't know. Whatever that is, whatever the thing is when they go behind like a disadvantage.

• 17:20Chris Williamson?

  There's people that have both of those, but that can't be changed. It comes back to the Stoic principle of the dichotomy of control. What can you control? What can't you control? Just do the things that you can.

• 17:34Chris Williamson?

  When it comes to the self-esteem and people blaming circumstance or other bits and pieces, is that just them being able to point the finger at something which isn't their self? Or is there something going on here, something else going on?

• 17:49Speaker 00

  It's just the reason that they point the fingers to someone else is that they they're not happy with themselves. And for this reason, they don't want to bear the responsibility because they think that they're unworthy of being responsible for their own life. Okay, so it all comes back to to this feeling of unworthiness because what they're currently doing is not producing the results that they want. So they're they're just basically give up. And this is what separates a winner from a loser. Okay, so winner just keeps on going until he wins, he or she wins.

• 18:31Chris Williamson?

  I'm going to guess that you'll be familiar with the learned helpness, learned helplessness study on dogs. Have you heard this word? Okay, so this identifies, I think, one of the things that you might be getting at. So it's a very famous study done quite a while ago. And dogs were put in a cage and the floor was shocked. So it was uncomfortable for the dogs, shocked the dogs. In there was three groups. In the first group, the dogs had a little button that they could press. And if they pressed the button, then it went away. In the second group, the dogs had a button that they could press. And if they pressed the button, nothing happened. So they just kept on getting shocked. And then in the third group, if they pressed the button, sorry, they didn't get shocked at all. Right. So three, three different groups of dogs.

• 19:17Chris Williamson?

  Roll it forward, second iteration of the study, they're now put into a different cage. Different button, same shocks. All three sets of dogs are now shocked. So remember that the third set was never shocked in the first place.

• 19:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:28Chris Williamson?

  First set, who had the button that worked, they go over to the button and they press it. The third set, who were never shocked in the first place, they also go over to the button and they push it. But the second group, who the first time the button didn't do anything, they just curled up on the floor and didn't try to go and press the button, despite the fact that that button worked. So what that was then moved into was a theory of learned helplessness. And that over time, if the world continues to keep on beating you, after a while, you just think, no, this isn't for me, I'm just gonna give up. But that's a natural response.

• 20:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's it's basically conditioning. So when you're conditioned to certain circumstances, you don't even try and change your circumstances because you think that you don't have control over them. But this is what my my message basically was, is that what can give you hope and what can give you the willingness to to try something new, to produce some results, is the realization that you're actually the only person that is in control of their lives. And you know, your situation, sometimes it's hard to change your situation, but like you can change your perspective and you can change what you're getting out of a situation. Okay, so you know, we have seven people, seven billion people

• 20:50Speaker 00

  on the planet and you know, unfortunately, most of them are conditioned to not take action, perhaps because of their family beliefs, or perhaps of the fact that they tried something and it didn't work. But if you and you know, there is this myth of overnight success. And you know, we we see articles about successful entrepreneurs. And you know, there there are some misleading titles saying that, oh, you know, like entrepreneur A. Had an overnight success and it's never an overnight success. This is what my career taught me as well. You know, I had to iterate, I had to go through a lot of like difficulties through my career. And you know, it's never straightforward.

• 21:33Speaker 00

  And you know, after running my business, so I'm I'm originally from Greece. So after running my business, uh, my first business in Greece for five years, I moved to the UK to do my master's degree. And you know, I was a self-funded student. I wasn't working for a year. At some point, my my savings uh, run out, you know. I I was in a hard situation. And then after completing my masters, I had different kind of options to to get a job or do something else. And then I found this cool biotech startup that was looking for a co-founder. And I knew that I wouldn't get a salary, but it was like, it was a priceless experience. I learned so much, you know, and you know, it was definitely worth it. And you know, I I was I was telling about this experience to a friend of mine.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  And he said something along the lines, oh, my God, Elena, you were so brave back then and you took a leap of faith. And like, you didn't even think about quitting or getting a job. And I said that for me, quitting was never an option. And you know, maybe I have this kind of mindset because I basically was never an employee before. So I started my first business at twenty two, um, straight after my my bachelor's degree. And I could, and the reason that I started it and I was looking for different kinds of, you know, opportunities is that like, I don't know, maybe it's in my blood or something, but I really love a good challenge. And I I couldn't imagine myself being contained in a nine to five job.

• 23:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I get that. I I wonder, how can someone, it it's all well and good for me and you who've been indoctrinated into this entrepreneurial world since we were teenagers slash early twenties. But you know, someone who's not from this world might just listen to what you're saying there. And you go, well, it's all well and good for you as you're super achieving, like, brain box with five degrees and and and tech startup and all this sort of stuff. But I'm just, I'm just a normal guy or a normal girl. I don't have this indomitable spirit. I don't have, that's a really indomitable, indomitable, whatever, that word, indomitable. I don't have this unbeatable spirit.

• 23:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it doesn't matter what it is.

• 23:44Chris Williamson?

  How do I get over it? How do I get over myself? I don't think that I can do that. That's easy for you to say, you know, that first step.

• 23:51Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter what you think. You need to ask yourself, okay, if I start trying, what's the worst that can happen to me? You know, like, are you gonna die? Are you gonna like, you know, become homeless or something? I mean, if you run this risk, you probably shouldn't start your own business, but you know what I'm saying? And like, I'll give you an example of my third business, basically the one that I started a few months ago. I set up the whole business in the UK in a matter of two days. You know, I found a virtual office address, I registered the company, you know, I, I set up a business bank account. And it all took me, I don't know, less than a hundred pounds and less than two days to organize, you know?

• 24:36Speaker 00

  Creating a business is easier than ever. And especially like with this, with this freelancing economy that we're in the moment. Like, you don't need to, to be so anxious about, you know, about organizing the whole thing. Because like 20 years ago, if you wanted to start a business, you know, you should have rented a place and, you know, bought an inventory, things like that. So now with, you know, with online products and online services that you can, you can start, like, what's the worst thing that can happen, you know? And like, I think that Tim Ferriss mentions in his four hour

• 25:17Speaker 00

  work week, mentions that if you're really afraid to take a leap of faith, like literally rate your fear from zero to 10. Okay, what's the worst that can happen? Is it really that bad? You know, just put things into perspective with zero being like zero negative consequences and 10 being you, you know, like losing a limb or something, you know, like what? What's the worst that can happen? You know, like you can start and you can you can start working in a business or an idea in your free time. And then this is where time management comes in as well, because people are also conditioned having certain habits. And, you know, but buying watching Netflix and like every weekend. And then again, you need to ask yourself, do I really need to do this?

• 26:00Speaker 00

  And you need to evaluate your trajectory and ask yourself, okay, if in five years from now, I want to be making seven figures. If in five years from now, I want to buy a Ferrari, like, why am I buying watching Netflix every weekend? Like, it doesn't make any sense, you know, like, perhaps you should prioritize your stuff um a bit better. Before saying that it's actually not possible.

• 26:23Chris Williamson?

  I I agree. Um, I think assessing the daily actions that you take and then realizing what happens if you roll the clock forward from there. Is empowering and also scary. It's terrifying in the same breath, right? Because you realize just how many of the things you do don't serve the end result that you actually want.

• 26:44Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 26:45Chris Williamson?

  One thing I've been thinking a lot about recently has been to do with people's trust in their own word. So a lot of the time, people try and enact some form of behavior change. Uh, I'm gonna lose weight. I'm gonna stop smoking. I'm gonna get up early. I'm gonna uh be nicer to my partner. I'm gonna stop arguing with whatever, spend time on my phone. Um, and a lot of the time, habits and behavior changes don't go tremendously well. And people end up going back to their old modes of operating. And if you do that enough times, it's like, if you imagine being friends with someone who always, you'd say, hey, are we are we meeting at the coffee shop at one o'clock?

• 27:29Chris Williamson?

  And they'd say, yeah, yeah, we're meeting at one o'clock. And then you turn up at one o'clock and they're not there. And you're like, well, what happened? And you go, oh, yeah, sorry, this thing came up. And you're like, okay, okay, fair enough, fair enough. And then a couple of weeks later, it's something else. Okay, so we're meeting at three o'clock. Yeah, yeah, we're meeting at three. And then they continue to not turn up. Like, think about what would happen there. After time. You would lose faith in your friend's ability to ever do what they say they're going to do. And you have to consider that you're treating yourself like that person. And this is something that I've seen increasingly since lockdown began, because I've had fewer distractions. I've actually been able to keep promises to myself much more effectively, which has raised my own trust in my own word,

• 28:12Chris Williamson?

  which means I can then say bigger things to myself and have faith I'll follow through with them. So confidence brutally and empoweringly is a feedback loop on both sides. A lack of confidence inspires further lacks of confidence, but increases in confidence inspire increases in confidence. So.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is how you go from a negative feedback loop to a positive feedback loop of results and then more action. And this is something really great. And I, I definitely agree with you. I used to have friends that used to be late all the time. So they're not my friends anymore.

• 28:45Chris Williamson?

  Dicks. That's what they're called. They're not called friends. They're called dicks, Elena.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  And then I totally agree with you that in isolation, you can actually be more accountable if you really can focus on the things that matter to you. And I've been seeing the same thing with myself, you know. Before the lockdown, I wasn't consistent with my workouts, but now I work out every day and I'm looking forward to it. And I'm going for, for a walk or around like every single day. And you know, it's, it's been amazing really. And this reinforces it even more. And now I can't wait to get up and actually, you know, go for a run.

• 29:23Chris Williamson?

  Well, one thing again to consider there is if you are thinking, this sounds good. I like the idea of becoming a little bit more motivated. More confidence, building more confidence seems to make sense to me. It's compounding interest. That's one of the key. That's the eighth great wonder of the world, as Warren Buffett called it.

• 29:45Chris Williamson?

  But I need to, I need to overcome my principal inertia. That is, that first period is always the most uncomfortable in behaviour change. Because it's when you're putting in all of the effort, all of the discomfort, feeling all of the challenge and not seeing any results. And unfortunately, that is what happens. So I use this analogy, this month, so this is the 20th of May, when we're recording this episode, since the beginning of May until now, I've done more plays on Modern Wisdom than I did in all of 2018.

• 30:22Speaker 00

  Oh, wow.

• 30:23Chris Williamson?

  20 days worth of plays, more than 12 months worth of plays. So if I had the mindset that I do now with regards to where I pitched the exposure for the podcast, back then, I'd be like, what am I doing? Why am I putting out an episode a week when it's getting, you know, one 50 second of what I could get in half a month? You know, that like, why would I be doing that? But again, like, there's lead measures and there's lag measures. The lead measure will always be uncomfortable. You're going to be getting up early, you're going to be doing, learning things, getting confused online, getting frustrated, realising that you set the business up with the wrong postcode and having to resend the card back, you know, all of those different things. And you're like, right, okay, that bit sucks.

• 31:08Chris Williamson?

  But if it's just single stepping stones, every mistake is just a lesson that you don't repeat and you just continue to chew through it, you're like, I am making progress, I am getting there, even if I can't see it.

• 31:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is how you motivate yourself by realising that every mistake is a stepping stone for the next thing that you're going to be doing right. And this is like, this is how you can achieve big goals as well, by basically breaking them down in smaller and like much more likely achievable goals in order for you to, to start having some progress and get those dopamine kicks that will trigger the positive feedback loop. This is what I'm telling my customers as well is that if you have a certain goal in five years from now to be making let's say seven figures, you know, this is a very, very abstract goal and your subconscious mind probably cannot even imagine it. So what you

• 32:03Speaker 00

  do is you ask yourself, okay, in order for me to achieve this goal, what do I need to achieve in one year from now? And then you break this down even further and you say, okay, in six months from now, where do I need to be? How many customers do I need to have in six months from now? So what does this mean for my even more short term goal of a one month? Okay, so in the next 30 days, I have a solid plan of action. I have four weeks and I need to achieve goal X, Y, and Z. And this is it. And if I don't achieve it, I know that I need to move into a different direction. I know that I need to test out different things. And this is another very, very useful trait in entrepreneurship is

• 32:43Speaker 00

  that when you're trying things out and you don't work and they don't work, it's actually a good thing because you eliminated an assumption that you had before. And now you know that there is a different direction that you need to go into. Okay, so this is actually so, so valuable.

• 33:03Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think inevitably because of what we see of other people's conduct, we see the highlight reel. You don't see the failures or at least you don't see them that much unless it's failure, failure slash hustle porn, which is quite common, I guess, in Silicon Valley. But yeah, you don't see that. So you just presume that your failures is you being an idiot, not a normal byproduct of doing a complex thing in a complex world.

• 33:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. My God, the failures that I faced so far and especially, you know, in my academic career. So when I, when I completed my master's degree and I was looking for, for PhD projects, I got something like 20 rejections and some of the rejections that I got them even before applying. So I would just contact the supervisor saying, hi, this is Elena, this is my CV, this is what I did so far, blah, blah, blah. I want a wet lab project. I really love science. I'm in love with molecular biology, but I have a bachelor's degree in psychology. And you know, the, the reply was, yeah, yeah, thank you for your consideration, but you don't have a need to apply.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, so true story there. And then I met my my current PhD supervisor and he just he could just see this spark in me and my passion about what I'm doing, which is driven by the the results that I'm seeing and the impact that I could be having into, you know, like patients' lives and, you know, really benefit as many people as possible with my research. And, you know, he trusted me on this. And here we are, you know, I I I haven't even finished my PhD yet, and I already have like over like 110 citations or something, you know, it's

• 34:51Chris Williamson?

  That's amazing. Congratulations.

• 34:53Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 34:54Chris Williamson?

  Um, yeah, I think this kind of ties in to self-esteem, certainly, and also one of the reasons that some people might not like to work as hard as they could or put themselves out there. Because if you don't bother trying to do something, you always have culpable deniability that you could have made it work, but just didn't bother. Whereas if you try and fail, that is a very harsh reflection on your capacity. And because people are unable to detach their sense of self from their sense of success.

• 35:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:33Chris Williamson?

  That is essentially the same as the world's telling you, you are not worthy. Not that your business just sucked, or you tried to launch a garden centre in the middle of coronavirus, or, you know, I mean, like, does that mean, perfect example there, someone tries to launch a business, they've been building a coffee shop for the last year and a half, saving up money for the last five years, they've retired away into the countryside, create this beautiful coffee shop, ready to launch, March 20, ready to launch, whatever it was, March 22, Boris comes in, takes a big sledgehammer and just smashes it through the window. And you're like, okay, does that mean that you suck as a person? Does that mean? No, it means that the world is chaotic and messy. And unfortunately, sometimes you come off on the

• 36:16Chris Williamson?

  right side, sometimes you don't. That's why Lady Fortuna was back in your country's ancient days. That's why she gave and take, right? It wasn't that you were a loser, it's that you were unfortunate.

• 36:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And what happens is that when you do see those failures and you do connect them to your self-esteem, you actually need to realise that World being a scary place is not the only explanation here because maybe the world just wants to tell you, wants to take care of you and tell you, look, unfortunately, this is not the way it's going to work. Try something else, you know, and then you you just keep going. And the way I see it, again, I really love challenges. I do understand that this is not how many people think. Some people are are not so comfortable getting out of their comfort zone. But what they need to realize is that if you're sitting

• 37:13Speaker 00

  on your couch, there is a hundred percent probability that you're not going to make it, you know, like you're not going to build your new business by just binge watching Netflix.

• 37:25Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, how um.

• 37:26Speaker 00

  And it's it's inevitable that you will not succeed. Okay, so like, if you're really afraid of failure, like, you're bringing this into your your life.

• 37:38Chris Williamson?

  Well, yeah, that's it's like it's like imagining imagining the worst fear that you can and then manifesting it at the same time. Yeah, if if you'd spend all of your time worrying about whether or not you're going to make something of your short time on this earth and decide to not change the actions you are taking, you're assuring yourself of your own destruction, or at least assuring yourself that your own nightmare is going to come into reality. It's just, it is, it is hard, right? Because you see, you see, you see the world, you see your place in the world and your capacity and how successful you are, or how good you are as a parent, a brother, a business owner, a boss, a leader,

• 38:21Chris Williamson?

  whatever it might be. You see these things, and you feel like they are existential label placed on you. This is this symbolic, huge curse or blessing given from the gods. And you're like, I know that that's what it feels like. And trust me, like, I've been through business as well. I've been through so many neurotic, terrible mindset places where I've attached my sense of self-worth to my sense of success. All this sort of stuff throughout, you know, the last 13 years of running businesses, nearly 14 now. And it does, it feels grand and esoteric and, and, and like you are attached

• 39:02Chris Williamson?

  to the universe somehow. But it's just things happening in life. That's all it is. That's all that anything really is. And um, I, I hope, I hope that we're, we're drilling this nail, constantly hitting it with a massive hammer of self-esteem, uh, so that people can realize that um, they are able to enact change within their life, that the, the things, their outcomes in their life are under their control.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  Exactly. And I think that when you're in this dark place of a negative feedback loop of inaction and failure, and you don't really know how to get inspired, what I find really, really inspirational and interesting is to read a biography of a person that I really admire.

• 39:50Chris Williamson?

  Who like?

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Sorry?

• 39:52Chris Williamson?

  Who like?

• 39:53Speaker 00

  Uh, like Elon Musk or Richard Branson, you know, you, you read their autobiographies and you're just like, it's mind blowing how much action did they take until the thing started working. And when you, when you see examples, when you start training your brain with examples of people that have made it, I think that your mindset will start changing a bit. And again, today, it's easier than ever to do this because you just go online and you, you can listen to audiobooks on, or listen to podcasts or interviews of great men and women. And then you'll realize that, look, there is actually a different reality

• 40:35Speaker 00

  out there. Because what happens uh nowadays is that when you're surrounded with people that do not inspire you, it makes sense that you actually won't take action. And this is why uh, something else very important is to, to surround yourself with friends and people that uh, that have like the mindset that you, you would like to have more of. Okay, because when you're in an environment where no, like everyone's on their nine to five and this is their world and you know, they're going to the pub every Friday night and this is it. And this is what gives them the dopamine kick. Like you should ask yourself, okay, so if I do the same

• 41:15Speaker 00

  things that they're doing, like what, what are the outcomes that I'll be having? And then you realize that, wait a minute. So this is actually a compromise and I can achieve more if I start having different actions. If I start, you know, reading audio, like listening to audiobooks while they're going to the pub. And then, you know, your perspective changes and then you realize, okay, so this is not everything that's, that's there out there for me.

• 41:46Chris Williamson?

  I agree. And especially online, you can find communities of people. Now, it's not just that you have to be in the same location. You can find a Reddit thread or a WhatsApp chat or a YouTube channel or a Discord server or whatever it might be that has some people in there that make you feel like you're speaking to them, right? Or like they're speaking to you. One of the things that I get messages, very, very complimentary, probably my favorite type of messages that I receive about the podcast is when people say, hey, man, I really enjoyed the show. Just wanted to let you know, like, sometimes I feel like I don't have a whole lot of people that think like me wherever I live, or that operate in the same sort of headspace. But when

• 42:30Chris Williamson?

  I listen to the show, I really feel like you get me. I feel like we think in the same sort of a way. So, you know, and the people that are listening might be, I don't know what you're on about, Chris. I just listened because you've got a funny accent. But if, you know, no matter why it is that you, you have the opportunity to find someone that speaks to you. That might be Tim Ferriss, that might be the girls from Pretty Little Thing, that might be Peter Crouch, the footballer, you know, whatever it is, the more that you align yourself with people who have words that land with you, rather than words that just go past you. I think that's a good place to be.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, and what happens when your environment is not really motivating you is that you have all those stereotypes and labels in there, because people just reinforce what's familiar for them. And if you won't get out of those stereotypes of behavior that they do define their community by, like, it will be very, very hard for you to change your actions because you will be criticized if you're doing something else. And I must, I must comment here is that you're, you're absolutely right that bad friends are probably like worse than no friends, you know?

• 43:44Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm very eclectic with my time and I gotta tell you, I don't have a lot of friends. And, you know, Naval has, has commented on how precious his time is once saying that he doesn't do non-transactional meetings, meaning that, you know, if there is no concrete value coming out of a meeting or a coffee, he's not going to meet a person, you know, an email or a phone call is enough. And before even it escalates to a phone call, he'll bet very, very well whether this person is worth their time. And I think that once you set a certain value for your time, saying that, and he actually said that at the beginning of his career, he was, he was, he was constantly evaluating his time

• 44:30Speaker 00

  in terms of even the smallest task that he had to do. So if he had to do an Amazon return for like $10, like, it wasn't worth like an hour of his time because he could generate more money in this hour, okay? So this is a very, very good kind of vetting of your time. You just need to, again, be very objective and ask yourself, do I really need to spend my time on A and B and C? And unfortunately, this could include some friends that, you know, you can't really, you know, talk about the things that matter to you, that could be business or philosophy or something that could elevate your mind and, you know, can, can make you feel that this, this meeting is useful in, in some way.

• 45:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's, the crazy thing as well is to consider that.

• 45:20Chris Williamson?

  Some people find that group of friends straight away. Like, that's mad to me, the fact that, you know, you just happen to stumble by chance. Let's call it what it is, you know, like you live in halls of residence, which is randomly assigned next to some person that ends up being your best mate for the rest of time. I feel very fortunate, my business partner, I sat next to my business partner of 13 years in my first ever seminar, like that's, it's just by chance, but.

• 45:48Speaker 00

  This is amazing.

• 45:49Chris Williamson?

  Conversely, as you've hit the nail on the head there, having friends for the sake of having friends, if they don't bring you up and perhaps even bring you down, if you go away from people feeling like your mind is degraded, you would genuinely be better off on your own. And I think this is one of the few times where introverts have a competitive advantage. I've been talking about this recently to do with COVID, that usually in almost all situations, extroverts tend to have a competitive advantage because they're easier to socialize, they can do, put more time in with people, that means that they can

• 46:30Chris Williamson?

  compound their networking effect more quickly. However, there's a few particular situations in which introverts end up having a competitive advantage. And one of them is in being more frugal with their time and not wasting it on people that they don't value. And the other one is when they have to become their own disciplinarians and work on their own, by their own. And that's obviously happened in COVID as well.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And I see myself as a phenotypic extrovert. So I am.

• 46:59Chris Williamson?

  What's that? It sounds, that sounds like a kind of mushroom.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  No, it's not a mushroom. So phenotype, it's a term in genetics that basically is like how something is. Um, is seen basically. So in a cell, it would be the morphology, the, the shape of the cell. So this is the cell phenotype.

• 47:18Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 47:19Speaker 00

  So neurons would have long accents. This is the neuronal phenotype.

• 47:22Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 47:22Speaker 00

  So I call myself a phenotypic extrovert because I'm very uh comfortable with socializing and you know, like having a lot of friends, but actually I do enjoy my alone time. And I think that this also has to do with your self-esteem. So it all comes back with being comfortable, um, being with yourself, basically. Because what we see in a lot of extroverts is they actually just, they cannot stand being alone. You know, and they just need a company to fill this void because they have nothing to offer to themselves. And they don't really know how to cope with this.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  And for this reason, I mean, this is not always the case, obviously, but um, you get what I'm saying here. And I think that this is also an art to, to be self-sufficient. And this is something that definitely gives an entrepreneur an unfair advantage, whether uh they are an introvert or an extrovert.

• 48:22Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely. Yeah, I, I, I feel for extroverts who are uncomfortable having the amount of time on their own that they need to do the introspective work and reflection required to develop themselves. Again, you know, to the introverts out there, that is your competitive advantage. The fact that you're perfectly fine spending an, a whole day with just yourself is an opportunity. It's an opportunity to reflect on you, the way that you operate, to read a book and sit and just think about it for 10 minutes while you make yourself a cup of coffee or whatever it might be. Because you, in a different version, the extrovert version of you, would be ringing a friend while they make the coffee. They'd be FaceTiming someone while they make a coffee.

• 49:07Chris Williamson?

  Whereas to you, that feels, to the introvert, that feels like absolute hell. And you just want to make your coffee in peace. Okay, so use that time. You have the opportunity to use this time and, you know, to, to start sort of looping it back to what we said at the beginning. So you talked about the fact that self-esteem is the foundation, that you need to um believe that you are worth more than you are. You need to relate your current outcomes to your current actions. What was next? What came after that?

• 49:37Speaker 00

  Ah, it's basically the the the ability to keep on iterating and you know, just keep on going and trying different things because this is how you will inevitably succeed one day when you'll find the perfect kind of product market fit. Uh, this is a term from Silicon Valley, where you know, a product goes viral, basically. So you just need to to try different things to see what sticks best. And this is how it's done. And um, to comment on what you said previously is that sometimes we do hear those success stories of entrepreneurs and you know, you have the like people that knew them back from high school or something saying, yeah, um, he

• 50:18Speaker 00

  or she was just such a quiet child and you know, like, we had no idea. Uh, this overnight success is like really came out of nowhere. No, it wasn't overnight success. It was the fact that this person was comfortable just to be focused on their goals.

• 50:35Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Yeah, I think as well that the iterating on your on project is an important one because it brings us back to seeing failures as a lesson, not not as a comment on your self-worth, which again, keeps your self-esteem, your confidence robust to the inevitable challenge that you're going to come up against. So we've got that. We've got the fact you need to continue iterating. We've got the fact that you might need to change your tribe and your social circle in order to give you um, a better influence so that you start to give yourself room even, it doesn't even necessarily needs to be, and this is the negative, neutral, positive of friendships. It doesn't even necessarily need to be someone that brings you up. Just having someone that

• 51:19Chris Williamson?

  doesn't bring you down is a great start. That person that's always negative, that's always saying, always comparing themselves, playing keeping up with the Joneses, terrible with money, terrible with keeping promises, always late for their meet. You know, someone that's late all the time, it's such a warning sign as a friend, you know, because it literally just says, my time is worth more than your time. Like, what does that say about the rest of your friendship?

• 51:48Speaker 00

  Yes, of course. Yeah. So you know, when you'll be in a difficult situation, you know, how will this friend behave and like, will they even help you, you know? So it's this this matter of accountability and trustworthiness.

• 52:03Chris Williamson?

  Got you. So any final pearls of wisdom or things that people can take away from this? Anything that you want to leave people to part with?

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Okay, so there is a saying that you probably have heard before, and it's just be yourself. Okay, and I, I, what they forget to add is that you need to be the best version of yourself. Okay, so you, you can't just be in your boring self that never gets out of your comfort zone and then expecting everyone to like you and then being angry that this advice didn't work. So instead of focusing on external circumstances, my advice would be to always focus on yourself and your self-improvement. Just keep on honing those skills that will inevitably give you the results that you want.

• 52:53Chris Williamson?

  I love it. Elena, really, really cool. I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about what our true self is anyway. I mean, I thought about this this morning. So if someone gets a nose job, plastic surgery on their nose, is that nose still their nose? And you can kind of see self-development as an internal version of that. It's like, well, how much of the things that I make my, my new self do, my new ways of seeing the world, ways of operating, if I develop a new morning routine and start meditating, am I then, is meditation still me? Is that me as a meditator? How does it work? And it is, it's an interesting sort of philosophical question, actually, to ask that. And if anyone that's listening that has an answer to that, whether or not having a nose

• 53:38Chris Williamson?

  job is still your nose, and then the same, whether or not doing behavior change makes you more of you or less of you, I'd love to find out the, the answer to that. So let me know. Elena, where can people go? They want to find out more about Guild of Growth or check you out online. Where do they go?

• 53:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, sure. So they go on the website, it's guildofgrowth.com. And then we have a Facebook and an Instagram page as Guild of Growth. I also enjoy microblogging on Twitter. So they can find me by my name. So it's Elena Seranova, E. Seranova. And yeah, this is it. I would be happy to get in touch.

• 54:12Chris Williamson?

  Cool. I will link everything in the show notes below Guild of Growth and Elena's Twitter. Go on, Hassler on there if you want to talk about self-development and self-esteem and stuff like that. I think that would be really cool. Elena, it's really, really great. I look forward to, or I hope that you see the final year of your academics off and you can get this PhD knocked out as well.

• 54:33Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 54:34Chris Williamson?

  Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure. Catch you later on.

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