J.K. Rowling, Trans Athletes & Blackfishing - Leo Kearse

Leo Kearse is a comedian, writer and a YouTuber. I brought Leo on to discuss the most important news stories of the last few weeks. Real hard hitting stuff today like why J. K. Rowling has been written out of the new Fantastic Beasts trailer, how Sainsbury's are signalling their virtue by telling shoppers that they're racist on Twitter, why Jessie from Little Mix has been accused of appropriating black culture because she has ginger curly hair, how Nicki Minaj is rehabilitating people's personal brands over Instagram Live, why Leo got involved in a debate about censorship in comedy which descended into the historic oppression of women's football and much more... Sponsors: Join the Modern Wisdom Community to connect with me & other listeners - https://modernwisdom.locals.com/ Get 5 days unlimited access to Shortform for free at https://www.shortform.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours at https://www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (discount automatically applied) Extra Stuff: Subscribe to Leo's YouTube Channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCp1hRBGoDHKSn4HiHIzkXAw Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #jkrowling #blackfishing #womensfootball - 00:00 Intro 03:32 What’s Happened to J. K. Rowling? 09:04 Spending Time with Blaire White 15:21 The Fantastic Beasts Trailer 21:00: The Government’s Conversion Therapy Bill 27:51 Jesy Nelson’s Blackfishing Controversy 33:25 Leo’s Debate with Kate Smurthwaite 42:29 Trans Athletes in Women’s Sport 50:37 Why Wokeism is Harming the Black Community 1:03:24 What’s Next for Leo 1:05:29 Where to Find Leo - Join the Modern Wisdom Community on Locals - https://modernwisdom.locals.com/ Listen to all episodes on audio: Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  It's mad that for all the people bang on about slavery, the only bang on about transatlantic slavery that finished 400 years ago was ended by the British. Nobody bangs on about the fact that there's more slaves now in the world than there was 400 years ago, the peak of transatlantic slavery.

• 0:17Chris Williamson?

  Leo Kirsch, welcome to the show.

• 0:19Speaker 00

  Hello, how you doing?

• 0:20Chris Williamson?

  I'm good, man, I'm good. How's the UK? I'm heading back soon.

• 0:24Speaker 00

  Where are you now?

• 0:25Chris Williamson?

  In Austin, Texas.

• 0:27Speaker 00

  Oh, really? Yeah, I mean, the UK is, the UK is alright. We've got Omicron going around at the moment. I've got Omicron right now, in case you're wondering why I sound kind of blocked up.

• 0:36Chris Williamson?

  You're kidding.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  So, everybody's got it. Like, basically, you know, I'm always out doing gigs, doing shows and stuff, doing, I think, I think I might have actually got it at a TV studio, because I went in and everybody had a cold, and Omicron is a cold, basically. So, yeah, I had, I had coronavirus, I had like the original and best first wave of coronavirus back in August, and that absolutely floored me, you know what I mean? I was like, I wish I'd got vaccinated, but that, that was bad. And Omicron, I mean, it's still bad, but it's like, it's like a cold, it's not like, you know, it's not like...

• 1:09Chris Williamson?

  This is Diet Coke.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  What, it's Diet Coke?

• 1:14Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's Diet Coke compared with full-fat Coke. So you've got like the big, the big, full, original hit, and then you've got like the new version without caffeine, without anything else in.

• 1:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, which actually makes you fatter, because your body thinks it's had sugar, and it hasn't.

• 1:28Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, I, um, I saw that Omicron seems to be a little bit more transmissible, but far less deadly or something? There's only been one person that's died from it so far?

• 1:38Speaker 00

  Hugely more transmissible, three and a half times more transmissible, and Covid was already a very transmissible disease. So Omicron, basically, you know, if you're near somebody who's got it, you're probably going to get it, except, you know... Sometimes you won't, like my fiance doesn't doesn't have it. Um, and um, yes, it's a lot less, uh, it's kind of, it's kind of flat. The hos- the severity of hospitalizations is kind of flat at about twenty five to thirty percent. Um, whereas with the original Covid, uh, the severity started off very low, uh, for like young people. Uh, and then rose dramatically for for older people. So it was up around eighty five, ninety percent for for older people.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Um, so this one's less severe overall, but slightly more severe for for young people, which is great. Cause one of the, one of the bad things about coronavirus is like, it didn't affect children. So all these annoying little snotty faced brats are running about enjoying themselves. And I think if there's any justice, I mean, I did like how coronavirus went for like the the fat and the elderly and the vulnerable. You know, it's try, uh, what I couldn't believe was like the Tories, uh, the Tories tried to stop it. Like coronavirus is basically enacting Tory policy, or what I've been told Tory policy is. And then the Tories try and stop, like, next election, I'm voting for coronavirus. It's doing a much better job at like wiping out like vulnerable people than the Tories are.

• 3:05Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's so weird, cause um, I learned that viruses, they tend to get more lethal, uh, sorry, less lethal over time, but more transmissible. And this is what we're seeing, right, that Omicron, because killing the host is actually a really rubbish way to reproduce. So.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's why Ebola, Ebola doesn't get anywhere because, you know, everybody dies before they can give it to someone.

• 3:25Chris Williamson?

  Too lethal, yeah.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:27Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's a strange one. I saw, uh, J K Rowling got herself in bother again, eh?

• 3:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she tweeted, um, cause, oh yeah, so basically the police in Scotland, Scotland, Scotland's a really weird, got a really weird government at the moment, so they're trying to be super woke. Uh, so there's, there's sort of, and I think it's because they're, uh, propped up by the Green Party. Uh, but the SNP, Scotland's government, uh, they're trying to be super woke with all this sort of like, uh, you know, if you, if you look at any adverts for the Scottish government, or anything, you'd think Scotland was like the most multiracial, cosmopolitan, uh, everybody's in a, you know, dancing around with beards and makeup and, you know, in a tutu and stuff. And Scotland's not like that at all.

• 4:08Chris Williamson?

  You've got one black person.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's got literally one black person. It's like Scotland is 96% white. You know, so it's bizarre that they're trying to push this, this image of, you know, like they're a Benetton advert or like.

• 4:22Chris Williamson?

  It's a tiny, tiny world.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like, if you look at the SNP, they, they, they think that Scotland is like a university prospectus cover. Um, it's.

• 4:35Speaker 00

  But, uh, so they're, they're trying, they're bringing through all this like woke legislation and usually it's just used by them as a, as a lever to, to do their dirty work. So, um, for example, they've, you know, they brought through the hate crime bill. Uh, and then used, uh, they didn't use the actual bill, but they used the sort of, um, the, uh, emotion or the, the momentum behind it to depose, uh, so one of Sturgeon's enemies, one of Sturgeon's rivals on the front bench, Joanna Cherry. Uh, she was, um, she was knocked off the, the front bench, uh, because she was accused of being transphobic. And she, she's not transphobic. She's, um, you know, she's a middle-aged lesbian. She's, you know, just a nice person.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Um, but, you know, anything can be construed as transphobic. It's one, it's one of those words. It's like calling somebody a witch. Uh, if you call someone racist or transphobic, it's, you know, you might as well accuse, no, like, I never meet any genuine racists anymore. Uh, I used to when I lived in Scotland, but like, you know, like in the nineties, there were genuine racists. Now, you know, it's very hard to, to find any genuine racist.

• 5:42Chris Williamson?

  There's people that say things that can be misconstrued as racism and then that slime is really difficult to get off them.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so it's just, you know, if you accuse someone of racism or transphobia, you know, you can, you can just destroy them. But, um, but yeah, so J K Rowling, um, so Police Scotland have, have changed the law so that, um, if, uh, if a biological male or a man basically rapes someone, um, but then says that they're a woman. Police Scotland will, will be like, yeah, you're, you're a woman. And then they'll be prosecuted and treated as a woman and sent, sent to a women's prison. Even if, you know, they're making no effort to look like a. What we traditionally consider to be a woman. And, you know, obviously there's huge issues with this. You know, women in prisons are incredibly vulnerable.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  So if you send biological males in, then, you know, that's, that's,

• 6:41Speaker 00

  that's obviously going to cause problems, particularly if that person's already, you know, a rapist. And you can see why a rapist would want to go to a women's prison so they can continue raping.

• 6:55Speaker 00

  And so J K Rowling did a tweet, I mean, you, you might have it in front of you, but it was, it was quite a clever, you know, it was a play on this Orwellian newspeak of, because what happened under communism was basically you had to say the opposite of reality was true. And every day you were forced to say the opposite of reality was true, whether it was, you know, things are getting better, we've all got enough food to eat, Stalin's a great leader. You know, you had to chant all this stuff, just, just as you do with woke ideology.

• 7:27Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the tweet from, uh, the tweet from J K Rowling was, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength. The penis individual who raped you as a woman.

• 7:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I mean, quite a pithy, incisive and clear. You know, you can really see what she's saying. So obviously that's, that's denounced as transphobic, when it's, it's not transphobic. I mean, she's not, um, obviously, you know, J K, obviously there's, there's transphobes out there, but I think J K Rowling and me, probably you, we recognize that, you know, transgender women and transgender men who really transition and really put the effort in and, you know, want to live as that gender are genuinely, you know, I, I know transgender women, they're genuinely trans, transgender, they're genuinely women. And I see them as women.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  But if you're just a bloke. Who's saying that they're transgender, using, you know, exploiting the self identification rules to say that they're a woman. It's like, no, you're not.

• 8:28Chris Williamson?

  I don't understand. The thing, the thing that I don't understand is that that seems to me to undermine genuine trans people's rights more than criticizing people that do that. You shouldn't want to have your movement and your identity co-opted by people who genuinely don't believe it and just see it as a, an opportunistic way to move themselves to a different type of prison or to get out of particular types of culpability.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely.

• 9:00Chris Williamson?

  It's scary, man. I don't know. So I've spent, um, since I've been out here in Austin, I've spent a good bit of time with a girl called Blair White. Are you familiar with her?

• 9:08Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So I've spent a good bit of time with Blair, who is a trans woman and fucking hell, man. Like it's been, it's, it's the first time that I've spent a significant amount of time around somebody that's trans. And it's really been, um, like an eye opener to me because I, it's easy to see her. I mean, have you seen what Blair looks like?

• 9:30Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 9:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. I mean, so she's, she's about as womanly as you're going to get. She looks like someone who's about to step on a Love Island. And

• 9:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:39Chris Williamson?

  It's, it would be impossible to think of her as anything else but a woman. And she is pre-op. She's not had the downstairs surgery. Um, but I mean,

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Well, a lot of transgender women don't have the surgery because then you've got like, uh, there's a one in three chance you'll never orgasm again.

• 9:58Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  It's not, uh, yeah, it's not a particularly, you know, good or successful surgery to have.

• 10:02Chris Williamson?

  Okay. I didn't know that. Um, but dude, there's no way that I couldn't see. And this is the thing. I said this to, to Michael Malice, who I was out with. And I'm like, look, dude. Is it wrong for me to say that it is so much easier for me to treat Blair like a woman? Because she looked and acts and sounds and is shaped like a woman?

• 10:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, it's absolutely not wrong. And that's what, you know, all, um, you know, I think there's such a debate over like, you know, what is a woman? When, when does a transgender woman become a woman? And I think there's obviously a hotness rule. There's obviously a hot, like if you reach a certain level of hotness, you can use the women's toilets, you can use the women's changing rooms. And if you're just like a bloke with a beard and stuff, no, you can't use the women's changing rooms because you're not a woman. And I'd apply this to biological women as well. So, I mean, a lot of the TERFs who are, you know, criticizing me for, for saying transgender women are women, you know, I was looking at some of them and it's like, you're barely classifiable as a mammal. Like, how can you be sitting there like this dumpy, you know, mid 50s, like, you know,

• 11:06Speaker 00

  hairy chin, harried and battle axe, being like, oh, these women are women. It's like, you're not a woman. Like Blair White is way more, way more of a woman than some of these TERFy old bints. You know what I mean?

• 11:20Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, Blair even committed, she's committed so much to being a woman that she even drives badly. So that, that was being in her car, she's got a bright pink Mustang. Which, so I pulled out of the gym and drove past where Joe Rogan's recording studio is, which is supposed to be the semi-secret, but pretty much everybody in Austin knows where it is. And there's this bright pink fucking Ford Mustang outside. I'm like, if anyone wanted to advertise not only that Blair White's on his show, but also where the studio is, it's like, pull that thing up outside. But yeah, man, I mean, she, she literally even drives like a woman. And it's so, um, it's been really eye opening, been really, really eye opening to spend some time around somebody who, you know,

• 12:06Chris Williamson?

  I, I think that the first time or one of the times that she did mushrooms, she looked in the mirror and for the first time she saw herself as a woman. And you think, okay, that's somebody who genuinely has a discordance between how they see themselves and how the rest of the world sees them and how they feel inside. And that this kind of reframed, you know, born in the wrong body, gender identity, all of this sort of stuff. And um, yeah, not that I wasn't sympathetic previously, but I'm even more empathetic now. You know, like I can genuinely see the, the trials and tribulations of somebody who wants to be something different. And why the fuck, in whose world, how much of a cunt would I need to be to not call her she?

• 12:50Chris Williamson?

  I would need to be a colossal prick to not do that. So of course I'm like, I'm absolutely sweet with that, but on the flip side, like you say, some guy, fucking hairy chested, six foot three guy with massive hands and a fucking beard, like that decides to go and attack somebody. And is then just uses a self identification rule to get out of that. That feels to me like more of an attack on trans rights than saying that that shouldn't be the case.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  Exactly, because that's, I mean, stories like that, that tend to make it into the news and onto social media. So then everything, so that's what transgender people are when in reality, most transgender people, I mean, for a start, a lot of them pass. A lot of them, you walk past them in the street, you wouldn't even know, like Blair White, you met her, you wouldn't know that she's, she's not, originally, you know, biologically female. So, you know, most of the sort of transgender people, certainly, certainly the ones I know, they, they wanna, they wanna get on with their lives and not have this spotlight thrown on them. And this brought there by, by, you know, basically, basically blokes saying that they're women, trying to exploit. I mean, there, there's some funny examples, like Will Franken, who's actually from Texas, I don't know if you know him.

• 14:01Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  He's a comedian, really, really funny comedian, but a bit crazy. But um, he, and he, he sort of preempted all this about five years ago. He basically said he was a woman.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  Then, you know, he started getting lots of work with the BBC and stuff. And um, but he wasn't, he just put a, put a frock on and that was it. But it was really funny, like, you know. You'd turn on Radio 4 and they'd be like, "We're here with a female comedian." Start calling himself Sarah Franken, female comedian Sarah Franken. He'd be like, "Hey, how you doing?" You know what I mean? I remember I booked him, I booked him for a show, a show that I ran, Hating Live, really fun show. It's basically improvised hatred based on audience suggestions, really fun to do. But it was at the Edinburgh Fringe and so he or she, Sarah Franken at the time, because he's gone back to being a man now. But Sarah Franken, booked her and she was standing

• 14:57Speaker 00

  outside smoking a cigarette and she was like sort of huddled under the awning because it was raining and the bouncer saw her, you know, this six foot two bloke in a frock, you know, with a wig, you know, smoking a cigarette. The bouncer was like, "You move away from the entrance, please." And Sarah just turned around and was like, "You're gonna make a lady smoke in the rain?" Like, it was the funniest thing I've ever seen, man.

• 15:19Chris Williamson?

  Fuck, man. I don't know. It's all, it's all up in the air. But then J.K. Rowling's been written out of the Fantastic Beasts trailer. You see that? That's just got released today?

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Man, it's ridiculous. Like, it's ridiculous. And like, obviously somebody like J.K. Rowling, she's got her billions of pounds, she's still making money from the Fantastic Beasts and whatever, but she's not said anything that's particularly horrific. She said stuff, I mean, she said stuff that maybe I wouldn't agree with, like, but other people say stuff that I don't agree with. I don't think they should be like, you know, removed from-

• 15:49Chris Williamson?

  Her own body of work.

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:52Chris Williamson?

  J.K. Rowling's name has been downgraded in a trailer promoting the latest film of her Fantastic Beasts series amid a row over views on trans identification. Unlike previous adverts for the franchise, Rowling's name barely features in the two and a half minute trailer for the third installment, Fantastic Beasts, something, something, something. The new trailer opens with the caption, "Warner Bros invites you," while the 2018 film said, "J.K. Rowling invites you," and credited her with writing and producing her film. Kiery Tunx, co-founder of the campaign group Women's Place UK, told the Daily Telegraph, "This attempt to detach a female author from her own creative achievement is astonishing, but is just the latest episode in a long history of women being erased."

• 16:33Chris Williamson?

  So now you have the intersecting groups of concern coming in. Okay, so we actually more bothered about women and their progress? Or are we more bothered about protecting trans people and their progress and people that aren't actually trans and are pretending to be?

• 16:52Chris Williamson?

  It's a difficult one, man. I don't know, I don't know how this ends up, ends up finishing, but J.K. Rowling continues to get herself into hot water quite easily.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, just by saying stuff that's, you know, fairly pithy and you can see the point she's making. And it's like, we should be able to make points. We should be able to say that like, you know, if a man rapes a woman, he's, you know, there's an issue with him then saying that he's a woman and going to a women's prison. That, you know, it's really obvious truths. This is the thing that really surprised me about wokeism is how, how similar it is to communism in that you're not allowed to say really obvious truths and everybody has to pretend that the lie is the truth.

• 17:36Chris Williamson?

  Against the sort of party line, so to speak. I mean,

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:41Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I don't know, man. Especially given the fact that you don't need to have gone through legal changes. You don't need to have shown that you've been transitioning for a period of time. And it's like, fuck, do you know what it is? If you haven't done those things and if you rape somebody, like the benefit of the doubt gets to go out of the window. You've sequestered any goodwill from society if that happens. And who the fuck, who the fuck's supposed to be defending rapists here? How have we got onto a situation where rapists are being defended?

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. But the ideological strength of the sort of trans rights or a certain section of the trans rights movement, I don't think they represent, I don't think they speak for a lot of trans people, but the ideological purity overrides, you know, any sort of real world questions or, you know, anything like the fact that, you know, what about a rapist? It's ridiculous. And I was, I was talking to India Willoughby, who's a, is a trans journalist. So she, she called Andy Ngo a Nazi. So, you know, I just did a tweet about how, you know, the word Nazi has been devalued so much that, you know, this, this gay, bae journalist,

• 18:53Speaker 00

  the son of Vietnamese refugees who, you know, exposes corruption and hypocrisy and violence on the left, you know, is deemed a Nazi. And, you know, she, she, it turned, turned out somebody, somebody added to the, the thread saying that, India Willoughby described him as an Uncle Tom, which is obviously a viciously racist thing to say. And but he misgendered India when he said it. And India was like, you've misgendered me. As if that was the thing that we should all be paying attention to, not her racism.

• 19:30Chris Williamson?

  Use of Uncle Tom. Yeah, precisely. Fuck, my, dude, my favorite Andy Ngo story is a video that anyone can go and watch on YouTube and it's people, other people being mistaken for Andy Ngo. Antifa rallies, have you seen this? Oh, fuck, dude, it is so, you need to do, you need to do a video on this. So there's a guy, Asian dude, walking through a Antifa, like, rally thing, people holding placards. There's a guy holding a camera and they're shouting at him going, are you fucking Andy Ngo? Fuck you, Andy. And then people start going up to him. And this dude, he's got a mask on, right? So he comes up to them, takes

• 20:12Chris Williamson?

  the mask off. And he says, are you being serious? Like, this is the third time that this has happened to me now. And the guys are like, what? So you're telling me that just because I'm Asian and I look like Andy Ngo, that you're going to abuse me from the side of the street? And the person that stood next to the guy holding the camera goes, well, it kind of seems like you're doing it on purpose. And he's like, doing what? Being Asian?

• 20:35Chris Williamson?

  Fuck, man.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 20:37Chris Williamson?

  It's so good. But that's the most perjorative thing. Like, think about how fucking judgmental that is.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  It's so deeply racist to say, like, there's an Asian guy, possibly Andy Ngo, let's get him.

• 20:54Chris Williamson?

  What about the government's conversion therapy bill? What's happening there?

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Well, I just, I just did a video about it. So basically, the government's

• 21:04Speaker 00

  Bringing through this bill to ban conversion therapy, which sounds like a good idea on the face of it, because you know, conversion therapy historically has involved, you know, administering electric shocks to gay people while they watch gay porn, which obviously doesn't stop them being gay, it just introduces them to a fetish. And yeah, like all kinds of laying on their hands, praying. Like Lou Reed, Lou Reed was subject to this, I mean, this only stopped in the, or you know, stopped being administered by the state or by official authorities in, I think it was about the seventies. So it's, you know, relatively a recent thing that stopped. And, you know, in the old days, they did things like transplanting testicles to try and make people straight. It was, you know, crazy.

• 21:49Chris Williamson?

  What, like the testicles were the, were the center, the epicenter of the gayness?

• 21:56Speaker 00

  I guess that's, that's what the thought was. It's the epicenter of your sexuality. So, yeah.

• 22:01Chris Williamson?

  That is fucking medieval, isn't it? Jesus.

• 22:03Speaker 00

  And even, even lobotomies and stuff as well. So it's crazy because homosexuality up until like the sixties or the seventies was actually classified as a mental illness.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  And, you know, it's obviously it's barbaric. And I mean, it still goes on, you know, sometimes, particularly with, you know, religious groups. And, you know, it's bad. But what the, what the government's conversion therapy bill does is it also bans, it classifies any sort of treatment for gender dysphoria other than actually transitioning, classifies that as conversion therapy. So if you, but a lot of transgender people, especially, you know, children, teenagers, they're presenting, they're confused about their sexuality, or

• 22:53Speaker 00

  they've got depression or anxiety, or there's other things that are affecting it. And between, the data we've got at the moment says that between 60 and 90% of them will reconcile to their biological gender, their natal gender.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  If allowed to, but the the system we've got at the moment is is just funneling them into into treatment.

• 23:17Chris Williamson?

  Because the only current procedure which is permitted is to reassign gender.

• 23:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, so they're they're put on puberty blockers, which are, you know, they say, oh, this is just to to buy time, but it's it's not, it starts a sort of cascade and they're put into into a sort of conveyor belt that leads them to to be given cross-sex hormones and then surgery. And it happens surprisingly quickly, considering the sort of, you know, how dramatic and how, you know, powerful the side effects of some of these things are. So a lot of the drugs, the hormones of puberty blockers, they they can cause infertility, they can weaken bones, you know, cause all sorts of problems. Also, the surgery, you know, if you remove breasts, that's permanent. If you, you know, transition the genitals

• 24:10Speaker 00

  with surgery, that's permanent and causes infertility as well. So there's a lot of there's a lot of issues with with this. But, you know, children and this industry has just sort of exploded. Just a few years ago, there was just one gender transition clinic in the States. Now there's over 300. So this huge industry has blown up and they're not allowed to have a sort of free and honest and open debate around it because academia and the medical industry is systemically woke. So any questioning of any of this is seen as as transphobic and is silenced and shut down. And any academics that research it, even if even if they're, you know, taking a balanced look and being, you know, sympathetic

• 24:53Speaker 00

  to transgender people, they get they get denounced and their books are banned and they get, you know, thrown out of their universities. So there isn't the data and there isn't the debate and the the sort of academic research that is really needed to.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  You know, to judge what's best. And this, this bill sort of adds to that by, by outlawing any treatment other than gender, gender reassignment surgery.

• 25:20Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So what's, what's being implied there is that nobody that could suffer with gender dysphoria would want to not continue with their gender dysphoria. Like if, if you were to try and reverse that, or if someone was to try and stress test your ideas around your own gender identity, that is also now put underneath trying to turn gay people straight again.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's, it's classed as the same kind of thing, which is, which is ridiculous and not based on any data. And also the, you know, the, there isn't really a huge problem with the gender, with, sorry, with conversion therapy in, in the UK. We don't have, we don't have a huge amount of, you know, people administering electric shocks to gay people to try and make them straight. It's something that happened in the 60s and isn't happening now.

• 26:10Chris Williamson?

  I couldn't believe that that was even like still a thing, even slightly still a thing. I mean, when I first saw this and I didn't realise the externalities to people that are suffering with gender dysphoria for their gender identity. I'm like, what the, what is this? Is this Alan Turing back from the dead to become medically castrated again? It feels so medieval.

• 26:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, Alan Turing is, you know, a famous victim of, of conversion therapy. So yeah, chemical castration. I think he chose chemical castration because the option was going to jail for, for being gay. And obviously jail is, you know, if you're gonna, if you're thinking of a punishment, jail is not where you want to send gay people. They're gonna have a great time in there.

• 26:52Chris Williamson?

  Didn't he end up?

• 26:56Chris Williamson?

  Well, wasn't it something that you said about some of the conversion therapy things were just putting loads of boys in a room with priests for a couple of weeks?

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The pray the gay way camps. One of my mates went to, got sent to one and it's, it's ridiculous. I mean, like, you know, like if you take like 200 gay teenage boys and put them at a camp together overseen by priests, there's not going to be less anal sex going out of that camp. You know what I mean? So, yeah, pretty stupid.

• 27:27Chris Williamson?

  It's the worst conversion therapy of all time. Everyone's just come back really, really skilled.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:34Chris Williamson?

  Fucking hell.

• 27:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, or maybe, maybe they have, maybe it's like when your dad catches you smoking a cigarette and he makes you smoke the whole pack. Like, you know, these kids are gonna come back from the camp, but arsehole's like a car crash. So that's how it works.

• 27:46Chris Williamson?

  Fuck. Have you heard of black fishing? Do you know what this is?

• 27:50Speaker 00

  No.

• 27:50Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so, uh, Jessie Nelson, former Little Mix singer, addresses music video controversy.

• 27:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I did see this. So she's, she's been accused of, um, and this has happened to a few people in popular, it's happened to Louisa Orme, the comedian. So they, they get accused of appropriating black culture to try and be cooler.

• 28:11Chris Williamson?

  Yes. Which, which really, I mean, it is cooler. Black culture is a fair bit, like white people, white people culture isn't exactly the coolest thing on the planet. And I don't think that any black person would say that it is either. Stick to your own cool culture. Former Little Mix singer Jessie Nelson said she never intended to cause offence after being accused of black fishing in her debut solo track. The singer, 30, was criticised by some people in social media for her appearance in the video for "boys". Nelson was accused of black fishing, a practice of non, of a non-black person trying to appear black, but has denied using fake tan during...

• 28:48Chris Williamson?

  I can't believe that they're like, well, get the Dulux colour chart out, Jessie. Have you gone below an eight here? Because that nine, that is not to be used by you at all. Also, Nicki Minaj has got like based over the last couple of months, hasn't she?

• 29:03Speaker 00

  I haven't seen anything by Nicki Minaj, but I do know that like, if you go to the, like the whitest cities like Glasgow, Newcastle as well. You know, where, where from, you go there, people are, people really put on the tan and they go to tanning salons and, you know, Glasgow, man, you'd think you're, everybody's like Oompa Loompa colour. It's insane.

• 29:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I don't know. I mean... I think that another problem isn't just the way that, because she didn't have dreads. It wasn't like, how would you say, uh, archetypal, ancient, sort of the, the, the commonly held desires of black people and the way that their grandparents would have dressed. It's like wearing a pair of Air Force Ones and, and baggy tracksuit bottoms. It's hardly what I see as the crux of black culture.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. There's no durag, you know, there's no, um, you know, feathers or anything.

• 29:59Chris Williamson?

  Oh, here we, here was another one, actually. Nelson said she is fortunate to easily tan when in the sun and told Minaj, so she did a live. I can't believe that you need to go and do an Instagram live with Nicki Minaj to try and rehabilitate your public image, told Minaj.

• 30:13Speaker 00

  Is that what she did?

• 30:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  That's hilarious.

• 30:17Chris Williamson?

  Somebody had previously commented on her propensity to tan. Okay, so she's got an alibi to how easily she tans. She said that her hair is naturally curly after complaints that she had changed her style in the music video. She added, "I genuinely didn't think I was doing anything wrong because I've got naturally curly hair. I'm looking at a photo of her and she's ginger and I've never seen a black ginger person." So, I mean, if you want justification.

• 30:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. I don't understand why people, when they get called out by stuff like this, why, you know, why is she coming out and be like, "Oh, I tan really easily and I've got naturally curly hair." Just come out and say like, "Mind your own fucking business." Like, you know, obviously women always change their hair. They want, you know, if they've got straight hair, they want curly hair, they've got curly hair, they want straight hair. It doesn't mean that they're, they're calling for, uh, you know, the Fourth Reich to, uh, to rise and dominate with Aryan nations. Like, it's, it's ridiculous. Like, you're allowed to like, you know, put on a bit of makeup and change your hair if you want.

• 31:11Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. It's, um, the whole idea around now, people sort of staying in their lane, you know, actors playing the appropriate role for whatever their gender, sexuality, orientation, background.

• 31:27Speaker 00

  Disability.

• 31:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, correct. Yeah, which, I mean, I don't know. Where do you stand on that?

• 31:33Speaker 00

  But I think they're actors, they're acting and I think if you if you narrow the field down, if you say that only, you know, only transgender people can play transgender roles, number one, you're narrowing the field, potential talent down to an incredibly narrow field. And also you're making it less likely that those stories will get told. So, you know, there's two ways that it's negative for the film and for transgender people.

• 32:02Chris Williamson?

  Also, you've had some pretty good actors come out of Scotland, and if they're only permitted to play Scottish people, they're fairly limited. You know, I mean, no one was, no one was looking at Cillian Murphy when he did Peaky Blinders and saying, excuse me, Cillian, can we actually check if you weren't born in Ireland and were from the town of Solihull or whatever instead? Like, that's, no one's, no one's fact checking him. So, yeah, it's very much particular protected groups that have the problem.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:32Chris Williamson?

  I don't know.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. And anything like that, you know, where particular groups are sort of deified and placed higher than other groups on this sort of oppression pyramid. So, nobody, like, you know, a black person wouldn't get in trouble for straightening their hair. And a transgender person would get in trouble for playing a whatever, like, a lot of women, like, if they're a transgender person, they'd be celebrated for it. So, what that is doing is placing a seed of, you know, dissatisfaction in everybody's mind, that why are these people getting treated differently? Why do they get special treatment? Which obviously isn't good for for social cohesion and the rights of everybody in the long run.

• 33:17Chris Williamson?

  I saw you have a debate about censorship in comedy, which descended into the history of women's football. What happened there?

• 33:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, with Kate Smurthley. Do you know Kate Smurthley?

• 33:30Chris Williamson?

  No, she's got very standy-out-y neck veins. I noticed that, that you managed to cause some serious neck vascularity to happen during that debate. That was the main thing I took away from it.

• 33:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it was hilarious. Basically, she, so it was on Sunday, it was on GB News, and we're debating freedom of speech in comedy, and she came up with all these bizarre claims. Like, she says she hears racist jokes. Every month she hears racist jokes told by other comedians at gigs she's doing. And like, I don't hear racist jokes. You know, I gig most nights. And, you know, I do working men's clubs and all the rest of it. You know, I do shows in London. I do anything in Bedford, Butlins, whatever. I don't hear any racist jokes. And I'm considered to be a, you know, far-right Nazi racist, homophobe, transphobe and all the rest of it. So I'd think that I'd be put on bills with the racist comedians, if there were any.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  I never hear any. And I know why I don't hear any, because if you told a racist joke onstage at a comedy club, people wouldn't like it because it's 2021. And we're performing in front of, you know, every time we perform, we're performing in front of a group of people

• 34:47Speaker 00

  who are just, you know, members of the public. So if you say anything that's socially unacceptable, they won't accept it because that's how socially unacceptable works. But yes, Kate said she's, you know, and she's doing all these, like, woke, the only gigs she does are like, you know, super woke. She's a comedian, yeah.

• 35:03Chris Williamson?

  You are kidding me. I could have sworn that she was some sort of, I don't know, journalist, editor lady. I didn't know that she was a comedian.

• 35:11Speaker 00

  Well, I haven't actually gigged with her in a comedy club since, like, we did the Jersey Comedy Festival in, like, 2012 or something. So, yeah, it's been like eight or nine years since I've actually performed with her. And so maybe she's not really a comedian. I looked on her gigs list online, and there's no gigs booked in. So I don't know where she's, I don't know where she's performing that other people are doing racist jokes. But I think, you know, she might have been lying.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  And, yeah, she said, yeah, the women's football thing, you know, because people, she was saying it was right that Roy Chubby Brown should have been cancelled, and people were right to write in letters and stuff. So Roy Chubby Brown is due to perform in Sheffield. And he was cancelled by Sheffield Council. Because they said he doesn't reflect the values of Sheffield Council. And it's like, yeah, he's not supposed to reflect the values of Sheffield Council. He's not the mayor, he's a fucking comedian. And like, I don't want to go and see some like, oh, council value show. That sounds shit. That sounds so boring. I don't want, like, man, I used to work in local government and they're all so wasteful and boring and shit. We should just do away with them. Just get like, you know, a small council that like collects the bins and keeps the keeps the roads in good nick. Um, but yeah, so they cancelled Roy Chubby Brown.

• 36:27Speaker 00

  And she was saying, it's right that they cancelled cancelled him. And I was just saying, like, I just don't think, you know, like, if you don't want to go see a comedian, if you don't think a comedian's good or funny, just don't go and see them. I did a show at one of my favourite clubs in London. Um, and somebody wrote a letter into the club, or wrote an email into the club saying, oh, I came to see Leo Kearse's show in July at your venue and it was horrifically offensive and horrible. Um, and I came back to see it again in November and it was still horrifically offensive and horrible. Please cancel him from you, you know, your club. It's like, instead of cancelling me, why don't you stop coming to the show? You know what I mean?

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Like, it's absolutely ridiculous. I don't even think they were at the show because they said I was like homophobic and all the rest of it. I didn't say anything. Like, the the club filmed everything because you've got to these days to, you know, cover yourself. And they reviewed the footage and realised I hadn't said any of the stuff that.

• 37:24Chris Williamson?

  What do you, what do you mean that they need to film everything to cover yourselves? What's that?

• 37:29Speaker 00

  So if somebody says, oh, you know, this person said someone is misogynist, they need to be able to review the footage and see.

• 37:35Chris Williamson?

  No way. And that's happening, that's common practice in the UK?

• 37:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it seems to be now. I I record everything. Every show that I do, I record the audio. So, you know, if anybody complains, then I've got that as a.

• 37:46Chris Williamson?

  No fucking way.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  And yeah, people wonder why comedy's becoming incredibly bland and comedians are self censoring so much, you know?

• 37:54Chris Williamson?

  That's wild.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:56Chris Williamson?

  So how did it get on to women's football? What's that got to do with it?

• 38:00Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. So women's football, I can't really remember. I just said like, women's football is like, uh, women's football is shit. And, um, uh.

• 38:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't even remember. Oh, yeah, no, that's right. I said woke comedy. Woke comedy is like women's football. It gets written about a lot in The Guardian, but it's shit. And that wound Kate up, so you know, I hammered it home some more, saying how I was gonna get women's football back in.

• 38:29Chris Williamson?

  An idea around, was it World War Two? When?

• 38:32Speaker 00

  So she said, she said the reason women's football isn't popular, isn't because it's shit. The reason women's football isn't popular is because, she genuinely said this with a straight face, is because it became incredibly popular during World War Two, when all the men were, you know, at war, getting themselves blown up because the patriarchy favours men. And she said, so when the men came back from the war, the authorities suppressed women's football.

• 39:02Chris Williamson?

  And we're now eating the progeny of that. That women's football was lambasted in the 40s and 50s and 60s, which has caused us today to have an aversion to watching women play football. Matt, I'm more than happy to watch women's sport if they're good at it. But I watched a game-

• 39:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, or if they're fit. I'll watch it if they're fit, like the volleyball in the Olympics.

• 39:27Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 39:28Speaker 00

  Better than most sport. I mean, football's boring anyway, so-

• 39:31Chris Williamson?

  Volleyball in the Olympics is barely a sport. It's softcore porn that gets played before the watershed.

• 39:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:38Chris Williamson?

  I watched a game of cricket, the Hundred, which was a competition this year, they did a special Hundred ball game. And the way that they did it was they had the ladies game from the same teams, and then the men's game straight after each other, so you could go and watch. And I watched one innings have eight dropped catches. I can go and see an under 11s game and not see eight dropped catches.

• 40:09Chris Williamson?

  And I'm like, look, I'm all for supporting women's sport, but if you can't fucking catch the ball, this is no, this is no longer a sport.

• 40:18Speaker 00

  Think of the number of dents in the car park.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  But oh, oh, the halftime sandwiches. Just an amazing spread.

• 40:28Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's only, that's only because you have a higher proportion of female cricketers, I think, that are lesbian. So you've got like two, two really good people in the kit. I mean, I remember, I remember when I was, when it would be one of the lads that didn't have a partner and it was his turn to make the lunches when we used to play cricket. And it would be him and whoever his housemates were, and it would be the worst spread. It's quite a good way to do it because he'd never be asked back to do it. You would only ask the people that had female partners. So yeah, actually, that's, that's one way of looking at it. But yeah, man, I'm fucking, I'm all for supporting women's sport.

• 41:05Chris Williamson?

  If they're good at the sport, you can't, you can't force it down people's throats.

• 41:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. And that's the thing now, like, I mean, sport is pretty much a meritocracy. You know, if something's popular, if somebody wants to watch it, it's not like any promoter is going to be like, oh no, I'm not going to promote this. Because it goes against my sexist beliefs. They want to make money. They want to make money. So they'll put on women's football. If it's going to shift tickets, but like, does Kate, does Kate Smith have a season ticket for, for women's football? She doesn't.

• 41:35Chris Williamson?

  Swansea Town WFC or whatever. Yeah.

• 41:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. People talk it, but they, you know, they talk, they talk.

• 41:41Chris Williamson?

  Here's a, here's a fucking good example. Think about the UFC. The UFC regularly has female fights as the, the title fight of the night, final fight of the night. Like, and those are, those are unbelievably talented athletes and I'll happily watch two women smash seven shades of shit out of each other. Just as happily as I will a man. Like, and I don't care. They're, they're faster, the knockouts are a little bit less powerful, but they're still like dope to watch.

• 42:09Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 42:10Chris Williamson?

  Down. But eight dropped catches. Now, if, if all that the girls did was circle each other in the ring and like do, do that thing, I wouldn't want to watch it.

• 42:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:19Chris Williamson?

  So, fuck man.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Eight dropped catches. That is mad.

• 42:24Chris Williamson?

  Disgusting. Did you see the, the hubbub around this University of Pennsylvania trans swimmer? You seen this one? Okay, so.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  Cause this is this trans athletes, that's an area where it does kind of, you know, a lot of the arguments do break down. You've got like Laurel Hubbard, who, you know, transitioning shoes in her thirties, competed as a male athlete previously. So it's like, that's not fair. You know what I mean? That is not fair.

• 42:51Chris Williamson?

  No, I mean this was-

• 42:52Speaker 00

  And Fallon Fox in UFC, you know, like the women that fought are said, you know, I've never experienced strength like that. And obviously, because that's like a man who's like, you know, totally hulked out and stuff. So you've got like, you know, going through male puberty conveys certain advantages to transgender athletes. You get like, um, you know, bigger skeleton, stronger bone structure, greater muscle mass, it's easier to-

• 43:13Chris Williamson?

  Been on a course of testosterone, a high course of testosterone compared with your gender for 35 years and then decided to pivot out. So yeah, um, it's impossible to-

• 43:23Speaker 00

  Imagine you're doing steroids for 30 years and then like, you know-

• 43:27Chris Williamson?

  Cycled off and said, right, I'm now going to compete.

• 43:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:30Chris Williamson?

  It's impossible to beat a despondent female rival, says swimming against trans Leah Thomas is intimidating and discouraging. After teammates spoke out and said, everyone knows it's wrong. She beat her next closest opponent by a full 38 seconds.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  Whoa.

• 43:48Chris Williamson?

  And won pretty much everything, basically. She broke two national records when she competed. She'd competed up until 2019 and then had a little break and come back. There's something, I don't know how you feel about this, man. There's something that feels particularly, I, I, I really don't know where I stand on the, the trans women in, in sports discussion. Because it is, you, you do want people to be able to compete in their chosen pursuit. And if they're good and so on, but then also you know that there's this unfair advantage. But then making a trans women only division also doesn't really feel like a particularly good outcome. Making them continue to compete with men also doesn't feel like a particularly good outcome. I kind of struggle to see a good way to put this.

• 44:31Speaker 00

  What about, what about if we put them in the Paralympics? And then instead of women getting beaten by 38 seconds, it was somebody with Down syndrome getting beaten by like four hours and 12 minutes. Would that be a, a good solution?

• 44:46Chris Williamson?

  No. No, we can't do that either. That's good suggestion, but I'm not convinced that that's going to work.

• 44:54Chris Williamson?

  But there's something that feels particularly egregious about it being college athletes or like kids. Because you know that at that stage,

• 45:06Chris Williamson?

  there's more branches of life open to them, right? There's more paths that they could go down to sponsorships, scholarships, paths to go to university and move into professional sport and stuff like that. I don't know, there's something about that. Do you get that sense as well? That there's just something like extra unfair about trans athletes in college that are taking spaces from other athletes? I don't know.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, like, the whole thing about athletes is I feel like they've got an unfair advantage through some trick of biology anyway. So I'm kind of, you know, and also I'm not, I'm not a feminist. I'm delighted to see women upset that they've been beaten by a biological male. So, yeah, I mean, I can't really see, I can't really see the downside. It's, you know, and you look at, also, look at the women weightlifters that Laurel Hubbard was competing against. They weren't like dainty little like maidens. They're like, they look like, you know, big ol' lumps as well.

• 46:12Speaker 00

  I mean, obviously, if I was a woman or I, you know, cared, then I'd think differently. But I genuinely,

• 46:21Speaker 00

  I genuinely just quite enjoy watching feminists and transgender rights activists tear each other apart on things like that.

• 46:31Chris Williamson?

  I don't know what's gonna happen as you continue rolling forward with the intersecting ideologies of whoever's got the most grievance. Like, it feels like it's gotta be a snake that eats its own tail at some point, do you not think?

• 46:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's already, it's already so convoluted and so, it's so communist in the sort of the way the ideology works that, you know, if J.K. Rowling, you know, pulls back the curtain to reveal the lie, that, you know, you've got like, so, you know, I, if I said I'm a woman, like, according to all these like woke ideologists, the trans rights ideologists, I'm now a woman. And it's like, well, obviously not. I'm just a woman.

• 47:11Chris Williamson?

  There's a fundamental difference between you and Blair White.

• 47:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 47:17Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, man. I don't know. I don't know how that ends up, how this sort of situation ends up finishing itself because it's going to fragment itself and continue to fracture into so many different groups and subgroups that what's left?

• 47:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, and we're already seeing it happening with the LGBTQ community. So you've now got the LGBT Alliance because a lot of lesbian and gay people feel that they're being erased by, and you know, quite rightly, because if somebody, if a child or, you know, a young person, teenager, whatever, presents with gender dysphoria, quite often that's because they've got like their same sex attracted and, you know, they're being sort of coached that that's because they're born in the wrong body rather than they're homosexual. And then they're putting the pathway to, you know, this conveyor belt to transitioning. And

• 48:12Speaker 00

  you can see, you know, a lot of lesbians are quite manly, quite butch, and a lot of gay guys are quite effeminate. So they'd be the ones being put on the path to transitioning now. And it's, I mean, this is actual state policy in Iran, which has got the highest level of, you know, transitioning in the world. But basically being gay in Iran is illegal. So you've got the choice between you can either be gay and go to jail or be killed, or you can transition to be a woman and then it's fine. So you've got like, you know, the sort of, the state is transitioning thousands of people in Iran. And what we're

• 48:54Speaker 00

  seeing now is people wanting to detransition and reconcile with their biological gender. But it's difficult. Once you've been on, once you've had the puberty blockers and the hormones and the surgery, it's very difficult to untangle that and rework yourself. So I think, you know, we're storing up problems. This is going to be the thalidomide of our era. In 10 years' time, there's going to be so many people who are like, you know, a confused 13-year-old and were...

• 49:23Speaker 00

  Sort of brought into this pathway to transitioning and are going to be absolutely distraught and wanting to de-transition. And obviously, it's not, you know, I'm not saying everybody is going to be like that. For a lot of people, it is the right, the right thing to do, but they're, they're scooping up everybody and applying, you know, the same, the same treatment to everybody.

• 49:46Chris Williamson?

  That's what Andrew Doyle talks about, the fact that he thinks a lot of gender reassignment for children is rehabilitated, uh, concern about homosexuality. It's being, it's rehabilitated homophobia, looked at through a different lens, that parents don't want, I can't remember who it was, he quotes this guy, he said, um, he knew that his little boy was always a girl when he said that he was attracted to guys, and he's just so glad that his son isn't mincing about talking to boys anymore. And you're like-

• 50:21Speaker 00

  Exactly. Pure homophobia.

• 50:24Chris Williamson?

  Is no one fucking seeing this?

• 50:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. That's basically Iran's state policy. That's, the guy's basically channeling the Ayatollah Khomeini, right there.

• 50:33Chris Williamson?

  Fucking hell, man. I don't know, I don't know. There was a, um, a Denver elementary school that put a, a sign outside advertising families of puller, of color playground nights. So they've essentially created a racially segregated playtime for equity.

• 50:49Speaker 00

  They do this a lot. Sainsbury's did it as well. They had, they had safe spaces, um, for, for ethnic employees, um, which, you know, the thing with any sort of separation by, by race is, you know, it's separating people by race. It's, whether you say you're doing it for an altruistic or a positive reason, doesn't matter, because you're separating by race. And then it, then it gives, um, it gives sort of ammunition, or validates anybody who wants to separate people by race for, for nefarious reasons, for racist reasons.

• 51:32Chris Williamson?

  There was a, was it a 12 days, a 12 weeks a slave workout that was released? Was that last year? Was that by Sainsbury's as well?

• 51:44Speaker 00

  Oh god.

• 51:44Chris Williamson?

  And it was something like being, because being a slave was hard and so is this workout?

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Oh yeah, yeah, I remember that. That wasn't Sainsbury's, that was a personal trainer.

• 51:54Chris Williamson?

  Was it?

• 51:55Speaker 00

  Then, then had a, had an internet pile on, which is kind of unfair because I mean, I think, I think it was black. And he had this pile on, he just hadn't thought it through, but he's a personal trainer.

• 52:06Chris Williamson?

  It is poor, it is poor marketing, yeah, he's thinking with his muscles.

• 52:09Speaker 00

  But if he could think things through, he wouldn't be a personal trainer, you know what I mean? Getting paid like 12 pound an hour to like help housewives do setups, obviously it's not going to be the brain of Britain.

• 52:20Chris Williamson?

  Ah, I don't know.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  But Sainsbury's.

• 52:23Chris Williamson?

  The whole racially segregated thing is, is kind of a little bit of a weird one because I think one, one argument that I saw to do with Denver, I don't know much about Denver, apparently not a lot of black people. So it, you're finding a way for people to be able to create a community. But it feels like anything that's bureaucratically forced, top down, anything that's dictatorial and not just, look, if you want to hang together in the schoolyard or after school or when you collect people, like who the, who the fuck's the elementary school to say that this is the way that we should exist in the world?

• 53:03Speaker 00

  And it's, it's terrible. It's drawing attention to racial differences rather than sort of, you know, because I was, I was always brought up, you know, school taught us that, you know, race is only skin deep. And obviously it's not, there's cultural differences and all the rest of it. But we were taught to sort of be friends with each other. We're in Scotland, so it didn't make any difference. There weren't any black people, but, but yeah, certainly, you know, I've got black friends who say, you know, things are regressing, things are getting worse. Because it used to be that everybody would just hang it together and now. We're having this sort of top-down enforced separation of people. And Sainsbury's, companies are exploiting it and exploiting the division.

• 53:47Speaker 00

  Sainsbury's had that terrible tweet that was, they basically said, you know, anybody is welcome to shop in Sainsbury's, no matter what their race. And if you don't like it, go and shop somewhere else. And it's like, it's fine to say, you know, everybody's welcome to shop in Sainsbury's, regardless of their race. I would assume that was the case anyway. I wouldn't assume Sainsbury's was racist, even though they're owned by the Qatari Royals, which, you know, they run an extremely racist country with a, you know, genuinely objectively racist regime that actually uses slaves, slavery, you know. It's mad that for all the people bang on about slavery, the only bang on about transatlantic slavery that finished 400 years ago was ended by the British. Nobody bangs on about the fact that, you know, there's more slaves now in the world than

• 54:32Speaker 00

  there was 400 years ago, the peak of transatlantic slavery.

• 54:36Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 54:36Speaker 00

  And, yeah, yeah, in China, so you've got like, companies like Nike and Apple using the Uighur Muslim slaves. So they contract to the Chinese government. The Chinese government has around about a million Uighur slaves held in work camps. So basically slave labour, basically concentration camps. But slave labour and they have to, you know, work for the Chinese government.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  So, you know, Nikes get made there. And Nikes that are then sold by Colin Kaepernick as, you know, this is, we're standing up for minorities. It's the most fucked up, most fucked up world. It's great being a comedian now because there's so much stuff to talk about. In the 90s, all I could talk about was airline food. But now there's all this like, you know, genuinely horrific, you know, fascistic stuff going on.

• 55:26Chris Williamson?

  And Sainsbury's, yeah.

• 55:28Speaker 00

  So Sainsbury's said, you know, so, you know, anybody's welcome to shop in Sainsbury's, regardless of their colour. And if you don't like it, shop somewhere else. It's like, well, what are the racist supermarkets then? If you're saying, you know, Sainsbury's is a non-racist, anti-racist supermarket?

• 55:43Chris Williamson?

  Waitrose.

• 55:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, you're saying Waitrose is racist? Like, you know, it's ridiculous. Obviously, none of the supermarkets are racist because it's 2021.

• 55:52Chris Williamson?

  Fuck. Yeah, there's something that feels quite uncomfortable about a company that is weaponizing social justice, ongoing social justice campaigns in order to monetize, especially when you think, okay, and the underpinnings of this are total bollocks. You know, if you were using it, if the byproduct of you standing for a cause which is genuinely just was that maybe you gained some brand equity, whatever, like that's happened since the beginning of time. But if you're creating a fake problem or talking about a non-existent issue in order to then try and commercialize it, that just feels, it's the stupidity that annoys me the most.

• 56:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And the cynicism. And it's always these companies that are pretending to be, you know, it's super woke and doing it for the right reasons. But obviously, it's an advertising campaign. They've run it through focus groups and they've had boards look at it and stuff and, you know, processed it and been like, this is the thing that's going to sell us more ice cream. Like Ben and Jerry's. Ben and Jerry's, they're constantly tweeting, tweeting stuff, tweeting, tweeting abuse at the government for their treatment of refugees. Then you go to, you know, Ben and Jerry's, we need to let all the refugees into the country. Then you go down to Ben and Jerry's, they lock the doors at night. It's like, so how come you're, we're allowed to enforce that border? Like, why is the border around Ben and Jerry's allowed to be enforced? They're

• 57:21Speaker 00

  all, they're all full of nonsense. And also, you know, by saying that, you know, they say that Ben and Jerry's, they supported all the rioting and the looting and Black Lives Matter. So you should go and steal Ben and Jerry's.

• 57:35Chris Williamson?

  I saw, because I've been out here for a little while, so I missed like all of the run up to Christmas, including the adverts. Wasn't there a kickoff about John Lewis as well? Wasn't, wasn't there a fake scandal around the fact that it was a black family in the John Lewis campaign, which I just thought looked like a, like a nice, it was an average advert, but just a nice family?

• 57:55Speaker 00

  I would be amazed if there was anything other than a black family in an advert, you know, for another probably about 18 months. And there's certainly no, certainly no white couples. All the couples have to be interracial. Yeah.

• 58:11Chris Williamson?

  What do you think that's about? Why do you think that's happening?

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Because of Black Lives Matter, all of a sudden it all, you know, the same thing happened in comedy. If you look at TV comedy, it's all, because most comedians are middle aged white men, bald white men, because it's mostly men that want to do it. The UK's mostly got white people in it. And it takes a while to become good at comedy. So by the time you get good, you're like, you know, forty five or whatever. So most comedians that are good enough to watch are, you know, middle aged white men. But if you look at TV comedy, it's all, you know, fat, black women and twenty two year olds.

• 58:51Chris Williamson?

  Well, what do you say to people that say, well, they haven't had their time in the limelight. This is an opportunity for previously marginalized groups to finally get some time on stage.

• 59:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I think it's great. I mean, if somebody's got a YouTube channel, I think it's brilliant that TV is, you know, writing itself into irrelevance. So you can either go and watch, you know, a shocking set on Live at the Apollo by, you know, a non-binary, twenty two year old ethnically mysterious person. Or you can watch me, you know what I mean? So it's great. Long may the BBC continue to destroy itself, is what I say.

• 59:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so is there a, should someone step into a meritocracy in your eye, in your view? Is there a point at which there needs to be, I don't know, like affirmative action to do with representation or should it just be a complete free market?

• 59:49Speaker 00

  I think, seriously, there needed to be some sort of improvement in representation. And I still don't think we've got fair representation. Maybe in terms of ethnicity, but not in terms of class. And because people, um, you know, if we've got a lack of, uh, you know, Asian comedians or black comedians, um, that can be because there aren't enough black comedians to start off with. So they don't, you know, if, if you're a, a black kid, um, you're not going to look at, you know, or you might not look at Billy Connolly and be like, oh yeah, I want to be like him. But you look at Lenny Henry or Chris Rock, because they're black, you know what I mean? So you're going to feel that affinity. Um, so by putting people

• 1:00:34Speaker 00

  in those places, you're giving role models to, to the next generation. So yeah, I think it is positive. I think where it falls down though, is, uh, you know, there's loads of good, um, black comedians, loads of good female comedians. They don't, they don't pick, when it, when it comes down to tokenism, when they're, they're picking people according to their demographics, like Nico Yearwood, the guy I do three speech podcasts with, man, that guy's just an absolute killer. He's so funny. He's so funny. He's got so much charm and charisma and, and wit, like, uh, he's great off the cuff, his material's great. Um, he could, man, that guy could be, could be huge. Uh, but he's not getting the breaks on TV. Uh, it's not just because he's lazy, because he is lazy, but like, it's, they'd look at him and they're like, nah, well, he's, he's, you know, he's about

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  40. Um, I don't think he's, you know, he's not, he's not right for, he's not right for us. We want a 22 year old. A 22 year old's going to come out and do like some absolute dog shit material about how, you know, um, you basically, young people aren't funny because not enough bad stuff has happened to them. But yeah, Nico's really funny and he's not getting the breaks. Same, same with the female, there's some hilarious female comedians that, that don't get a break because they're not good looking enough or too good looking or, or whatever it is. Uh, when, when the sort of powers that be are placing people based on their demographics, it's tokenism and it doesn't, it doesn't work.

• 1:01:56Chris Williamson?

  But it's never based on class demographics. This is what Rogan said. Who, who would have thought that, uh, an episode with Snoop Dogg would have had some secret wisdom in it? But it did. And, uh, he said, one of the reasons that the powers that be get people to focus on race is that it stops us from focusing on class.

• 1:02:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I think we know that in the UK, uh, class is a far bigger differentiator than race. You know, obviously, like if you talk to, you know, I know some ethnic people are incredibly posh, like Calvin Robinson, for example, and he, you know, I don't think he gets, he gets a lot of discrimination based, based on his, on his race, but you know, somebody who's got the same ethnicity, but is working class is going to be treated, treated a different way and, you know, if you're dressed a different way and all the rest of it. I've certainly experienced classism, even though like the thing that pisses me off, like in London, I get like, you know, I got knocked back for a job at Coutts Bank,

• 1:02:55Speaker 00

  this back, you know, way back in the day, and I could, I could sort of tell, everybody else in the interview thing was like super posh and stuff, I could tell, I was like, man, in Scotland, I'm posh. You know, don't be, don't be descrip, you think because I'm Scottish, I'm not posh.

• 1:03:08Chris Williamson?

  But the poshest person in Scotland is the poorest person in London.

• 1:03:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm the poshest person in Scotland, you motherfuckers. And also your bank's owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland, so like, you know.

• 1:03:18Chris Williamson?

  Give me my fucking Jew, give me my nation's desire, yeah, exactly.

• 1:03:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:22Chris Williamson?

  Fuck. What have you got coming up next? What's next on the plate for you?

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  So, yeah, hopefully I'm going to get over Omicron soon.

• 1:03:29Chris Williamson?

  Oh, fuck, have you had to rearrange a ton of dates?

• 1:03:32Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah, I just, I cancelled, but I was supposed to headline for the Free Speech Union gig last night. Um, and I was supposed to be up in Blackpool and Liverpool and Bursko, or whatever it's called, this weekend, but I've had to cancel those. Um, so, yeah, I'm just, I'm, I'm just taking the, the opportunity to write stuff for my YouTube channel, so I'll be doing a new video. I'm going to do a video next about woke sports people. So you've got the sports personality of the year competition coming up on the 19th. So I'm going to do, and all these people are like, man, Marcus Rashford, you know, he's all, oh, the government needs to, you know, government needs to, um, provide free school meals to all the children and stuff. Then he's dodging his taxes, he's paying himself with a loan, so you know, you don't need to pay tax on a loan, you can just not pay the loan back.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  So, you know, if he paid his taxes, the government, if all these people, all these woke people, woke people are always like, the government needs to do this, it's like, man, you can give the government more money if you want. I don't want to give the government any more money, but you can, seeing as you think it's so important. Now the government can afford to give it, you know, all the kids can get a free school meal and a Faberge egg or whatever else they want, like, you know what I mean? It's ridiculous. Gary Lineker, Gary Lineker's always like swanning around Twitter, being all like, you know, criticizing Lawrence Fox and whoever for, for being terrible people. And it's like Gary Lineker makes his money. From the BBC, which is basically taxpayers' money. And then he decides he doesn't have enough money from all the hundreds of thousands of pounds he gets each year from the BBC. So he sells crisps, he markets crisps to obese children who are at risk of diabetes.

• 1:05:00Speaker 00

  So he's basically deliberately killing children for money. It's like you can't, he's basically like Gaddafi's son. Gary Lineker's an absolute, you know what I mean? For these people to then try and take the moral high ground. It's like, how about you stop killing children, Gary? It's like, he'd be selling cigarettes at a playground out of the back of a van if he had his choice. But instead, you know, he's selling Walkers crisps instead.

• 1:05:23Chris Williamson?

  Woke personality of the year then. So that's done. Where can people go if they want to check out the YouTube channel?

• 1:05:29Speaker 00

  Yes, I've got a YouTube channel, just Leo Kears. That's how you find it. Or my Instagram's ScottishComedian.

• 1:05:37Chris Williamson?

  No way, you've got ScottishComedian on Instagram?

• 1:05:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't believe it was available either.

• 1:05:42Chris Williamson?

  Fuck you, Daniel Sloss. Fuck you.

• 1:05:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:46Chris Williamson?

  Man, it's been really good to speak today. I hope that you get over your Omicron and you have a good Christmas and I will catch you in the new year.