Hunter Biden, Matt McCusker & Duncan Trussell - Mostly Wise #2

I spent a really long time putting this together, I really hope you enjoy it! In this second episode of Mostly Wise, we explore: * Hunter's true version of the laptop story * The best conspiracy theories that are (maybe) real. * If it was Hunter's bag that was found in the White House. * What the next two years will look like in politics. * Hunter's unfiltered thoughts on the presidential family. * Matt gifts a ceremonial "pipe" to Hunter * And much more... Guests *Hunter Biden is an artist, former attorney, and the son of former US President Joe Biden. * Matt McCusker is a comedian, writer, author and podcaster. * Duncan Trussell is a comedian, actor, writer and podcaster. - Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠⁠⁠https://chatgpt.com⁠ - 0:00 Is Peter Thiel in League With the Anti-Christ? 3:10 Are Robot Dogs and Delivery Drones Taking Over? 6:50 Shaking the Shame of Addiction and a Leaked Laptop 15:37 How Much Power Does a President Really Have? 23:38 Living Through the Laptop Controversy 33:39 What Stopped Hunter From Relapsing? 38:07 Would Hunter Have Been Pardoned If His Dad Won? 40:00 Was Joe Biden Fit to Run Again? 50:16 Was Joe Biden America’s Poorest President? 52:55 Is Hunter Cage Fighting Donald Jr and Eric Trump? 54:00 The Secret Doors in the Presidential Residence 56:59 Is the White House Actually Haunted? 59:56 How to Hide D***s in the White House 01:05:36 Why Hunter Packs His Bags With a Witness 01:09:25 Will Hunter Ever Run For President? 01:10:24 What’s Next For Hunter? 01:13:10 Why Are C***k Addictions So Shocking? 01:17:52 Was the CIA Behind JFK’s Assassination? 01:26:09 The Flex of Avoiding the Epstein Files 01:27:01 How Hunter Joined the Board of Burisma 01:36:41 Don’t Let Addiction Define You 01:43:56 We Need to Get Money Out of Politics 02:00:44 What’s Driving Political Violence? 02:10:23 When Did Politics Become So Confrontational? 02:13:56 Are We Ready For Superintelligence? 02:25:04 Is AI Creating Viruses? 02:28:51 Why Anthony Fauci Keeps Pleading the Fifth 02:32:19 The Greatest Danger to America 02:39:17 The Catalyst of the Iran War 02:51:12 What If Hunter Had Never Been Pardoned? 02:55:34 What It’s Really Like Talking to Nick Fuentes 03:01:20 You Have to Play the Game to Win - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spotify.modernwisdom.com or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.modernwisdom.com Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom Follow Hunter on Substack here - https://hunterbiden.substack.com - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Change my wife's name to Peter Thiel on my phone.

• 0:04Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 0:05Speaker 00

  Just because I got accused of being in Peter Thiel's pod. I don't know him, never met him. But people say now anytime my phone, my wife calls, which is a lot. Peter Thiel is calling.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  I don't know him and I've never, I don't know him.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure, man.

• 0:23Chris Williamson?

  There's a lot of texts from Peter Thiel over here.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  Let's talk about the Antichrist now.

• 0:29Speaker 00

  Please, no.

• 0:30Speaker 03

  Cool angle, you know, you went with. That was a weird direction.

• 0:33Speaker 00

  What?

• 0:33Speaker 03

  He just became the Antichrist guy.

• 0:35Speaker 00

  I saw the talk.

• 0:36Speaker 03

  How was the talk?

• 0:37Chris Williamson?

  Is that any good?

• 0:38Speaker 00

  It's a terrible, his interpretation of the Book of Revelations is so Silicon Valley. Cause he was like, uh, he's basically saying, we can fix the Book of Revelations, patch it. Like the apocalypse doesn't have to happen. I don't want this on the podcast because I take so much shit from weirdos that I'm a Peter Thiel sycophant.

• 0:59Speaker 02

  Hey, by the way, oh, are we on the podcast right now? I saw his phone. He's got like a hundred calls from Peter Thiel.

• 1:03Speaker 00

  It's my wife.

• 1:06Speaker 03

  He just showed me. He just showed all of us.

• 1:08Speaker 00

  I changed.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Just to make it clear.

• 1:11Speaker 00

  I love you. I changed my wife's number. Ah, fuck it.

• 1:16Speaker 03

  Now's how we're gonna play.

• 1:18Chris Williamson?

  That's it. That's it. And we're away.

• 1:20Speaker 02

  By the way, I want everybody. I wanna, I wanna say this for the record. I love Peter Thiel.

• 1:25Speaker 03

  Really?

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely.

• 1:27Speaker 03

  What do you love about him?

• 1:27Speaker 02

  I'm not fucking with Peter Thiel. He's in league with the Antichrist. I'm not, you know, I love.

• 1:32Chris Williamson?

  This is your set, you're saying it's out of fear. That's what you're saying.

• 1:35Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:36Chris Williamson?

  This is Pascal's way. This is Biden's wager.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  He's the fucking craziest motherfucker of all of them.

• 1:40Chris Williamson?

  You think?

• 1:41Speaker 02

  Did you watch that interview where he just decides that what he's gonna start doing is, you know, as we're talking about Palantir and everything is that he's gonna start talking about, you know, the Antichrist? Have you watched that interview with him? It is frightening.

• 1:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I didn't, I didn't make it through. I kinda watched it and was like, I, I just was like, it's kind of a cool angle, I guess. There's like a tech weirdo to be like, I know about the end of the world.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but wouldn't you say like the tech companies, it is a religion now. It's turning into some kind of apocalyptic eschatological religion. They're all building bomb shelters. They all know that AI is about to reach some level that is going to completely destabilize societies we know it. So it's, I mean, it's not a cult, but most cults, what do they talk about? The end of the world. The imminent eschaton, is that how you say it? Eschaton? The apocalypse.

• 2:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  And so they're all into that because they, they know that this stuff is going to destabilize society in a radical way.

• 2:39Speaker 03

  I can't get down with being afraid of computers. It's not. Like you have to be such a nerd to be looking at your computer like, it's gonna be my boss.

• 2:47Speaker 00

  I'm not afraid of the computer.

• 2:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48Speaker 00

  I'm afraid of those scampering robot dogs. That's what I'm afraid of. I'm afraid of being in the woods and hearing one of those DARPA dogs.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  My thing is, you said it before, dump, all you gotta do is dump soda on them. Fry.

• 3:00Speaker 02

  There you go, man.

• 3:04Speaker 03

  Done.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Don't be afraid.

• 3:06Speaker 00

  Just pour coke on it, guys.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  If you got a cup of coffee in hand, you're fucking.

• 3:10Chris Williamson?

  Duncan, have you seen those dogs that are patrolling Atlanta? Downtown Atlanta is so dangerous at the moment that, supposedly, here it is.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  Bro, we got, this is security right now.

• 3:22Speaker 00

  Pour soda on that, right?

• 3:23Speaker 02

  That's where I'm like literally right out of Robocop.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  Soul detected. A limited. Yeah, they wave.

• 3:32Chris Williamson?

  But there's, it's humans on the other side. So it's just.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  Then we're okay.

• 3:37Chris Williamson?

  But isn't that, isn't that, isn't that strange that if I'd said, oh, it's like LiDAR mapping, AI surveillance state, everyone would have gone, ah. It's already kind of freakish and inhuman.

• 3:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:50Chris Williamson?

  But the fact that it's basically replacing, rather than there being a guy there, there's a dog there and that maybe the guy doesn't need to be in quite so much risk if it's maybe like a gang area or something like that. And you're like, huh. But that is, that goes to show just how low the bar for not being freaked out is.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Have you seen the, um, the proliferation of flock cameras just in the last year?

• 4:13Chris Williamson?

  I've heard about it. I don't really understand what it is.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  It's gone from like hundreds to hundreds and hundreds of thousands in like all major metropolitan areas. They're just, it's a camera technology. It's a surveillance technology.

• 4:25Speaker 00

  And they brought drones now. They're getting drones. They're gonna, swarms of flock, of these drones are gonna fly over. Plus the Amazon delivery drones. There's gonna be this constant buzzing of drones in the sky, bringing you shit, monitoring you. This is where we're headed for sure.

• 4:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:42Chris Williamson?

  Was it true that Pokemon Go was that?

• 4:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:45Chris Williamson?

  Did that get proven that they were basically, uh, gullible volunteers for mapping the street view of everything?

• 4:51Speaker 00

  I mean, we're all gullible volunteers.

• 4:54Speaker 03

  They were just, you were, you were like able to map the inside of places and just like, you could just get a real time view of everything going on.

• 4:59Chris Williamson?

  And someone didn't read the terms and conditions that Nintendo put together.

• 5:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, who reads that? I don't read that.

• 5:04Chris Williamson?

  Are we afraid of the Japanese?

• 5:06Speaker 03

  No, I think they're our ally. Japan's our ally.

• 5:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So it's good, right?

• 5:11Speaker 02

  It's corporations though. It's not good. And they literally have everything. We literally have given over our lives to the, to the bag of heroin that's sitting in our pocket that's called an iPhone. Literally everything. All of our, everything that we feel about anything and the way that we, you know, uh, our, our perspective on politics, on everybody, and everything is, you know, a, uh, a, by virtue of the, of the algorithm that we're fed. And we, and we give up everything. We give up all of our privacy. And I'm not saying like, you know, like they do that. Like I do it. We do it every day. Every single bit of data that we do, whether it's the way that we use any single one of our apps, whether it's Uber or anything.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  It's all this enormous amount of personal data that we are just like feeding into a, you know, a corporate entity that they don't, I mean, and by the way, I'm not saying they're inherently evil, but what I am saying is, is that they're inherently have only one objective. Is how much money can they extract from us?

• 6:11Speaker 00

  Or come.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, true. Yeah.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  What or what?

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Call me some.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Come? Porn?

• 6:17Chris Williamson?

  How much come they're trying to extract?

• 6:19Speaker 00

  I mean, this is one of the unquantifiables. Every day, how much jizz is being extracted from humanity by phones, by technology?

• 6:26Speaker 02

  True. You just literally took this conversation to another level.

• 6:30Speaker 03

  I mean, it's what's going on.

• 6:31Speaker 00

  It is data. It's data. DNA, baby.

• 6:35Speaker 03

  Do you ever think about when they, I think they eventually will have it set up on like ancestry.com where you're like, kids, kids can just look at your web history over your whole life and just see everything you've ever looked at. I think about that all the time.

• 6:46Chris Williamson?

  That was basically your life for a while.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  No, yeah, a hundred percent it was my life.

• 6:50Chris Williamson?

  Speaking of your data being on the internet, how do you, how does it feel to be the most Googled drug addict of all time, probably?

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Well, um, at the outset, it wasn't very nice. It was, uh, it was pretty debilitating, you know? I mean, I, uh, to be serious about it, is, was so completely ubiquitous is that it forced me into this moment where I literally had to make a choice of whether I was gonna, you know, stay in bed and die or, you know, or, or get up and live. And, um, and thank God I chose to get out of bed and, and live. Which created like an, an incredible freedom in it too.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  I mean, at the end of the day, without any hyper, uh, you know, melodrama around it, is that it really, I'm, I'm, I do have an enormous amount of gratitude of not being stuck in those secrets. Because those are the things that kept me in my addiction. You know, that shame.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. What was that like? I, I'm like kinda fascinated by just now how like with the internet, you can just like massively shame people on a scale that I don't think anyone's ever experienced. The first day that came out, did you like, were you like knowing that was gonna come out or did it just kinda like pop out and you're like?

• 8:06Speaker 02

  No, I just completely, like the day that it happened.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, no warning whatsoever.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  I got a call. I just wrote about it on Substack. I got a call. I went to Palm Springs. We thought that we had kinda like made it to the end of the campaign. Early voting had started. Things looked really good. All of the, you know, the baggage, I'd been sober for a little about, about a year and a few months at that time. And was trying to put my life back together, getting things straightened, like my taxes and things like that. Um, and, uh, and so a buddy of mine said, hey, come out to Palm Springs and we'll just like, turn off our phones and, you know, and Melissa and I, and we had baby Bo, who was a few months old.

• 8:54Speaker 02

  And we showed up, unpacked our bags and I got a call. I should have turned off my phone. I got a call from, uh, my friend who was also my lawyer. And he said, hey, New York Post is saying something about a laptop and a, you know, repair shop and, you know, and, you know, I had no idea of the enormity of the story and how much Hunter Biden laptop would become just one word. That would be, and to this day is repeated over and over and over again. And so for a long time, it was really difficult to kinda, uh, it was like trying to, um, get your hands around a bowl of jelly.

• 9:39Speaker 02

  Because there was, there was the laptop repair shop story, which then became a, a, a story of suppression. You know, First Amendment rights and stuff like that, which we can talk about all that. Um, but, and then it became, uh, you know, Lev Parnas came out and he said, this laptop isn't from, uh, you know, repair shop. We were, uh, I was gonna, we were out, we were going to get the laptop in Ukraine, you know, three months before the laptop repair shop story ever existed. Two, I just sat down with Tucker and Tucker said, well, even before that, the, the Israeli, uh, intelligence

• 10:18Speaker 02

  met with my producers to, um, provide us with the same images that came out of the laptop before that. And, I mean, that just came out. I mean, I sat down with Tucker last week, Tuesday, and, um, he told me that story, which I didn't even know that.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 10:34Chris Williamson?

  Explain that story.

• 10:35Speaker 03

  So was it in a shop?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  I can't explain it because it's not my story, but it's, but, but, uh, Tucker said that he was approached by, um, uh, who he believes to be Israeli intelligence. And he sent a producer to meet with them. And they, uh, were pushing stories, uh, they were pushing a, a narrative that there was, um, uh,

• 11:00Speaker 02

  images that contained, um, you know, miners in it. And, um, and he said, his producer looked at it and he's just like, this is total bullshit, but it's like, but these guys are clearly, you know, uh, working for some intelligence organization.

• 11:15Speaker 03

  Funny if they're just New York Times reporters, it's Jewish guys.

• 11:20Speaker 03

  This is really a television show.

• 11:23Speaker 02

  So consider the source, but my point is, is that.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  So it's just like everyone had your laptop.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  Not only everyone had it. Um, yes, 100% and there's no, there is no, uh, just look at the, I mean, just the facts of it. Understand this is that the amount of data that was dumped obviously didn't come from a single source. It came from my cloud. It came from years, 20 years of digital, of my digital footprint, all the way back to deleted voicemails, like that deleted voicemail from my dad. Obviously it wasn't on a single laptop.

• 11:59Speaker 02

  But there are emails and text messages and deleted text messages and deleted photographs and photographs. And all of that stuff, there is the 90% that of, of what is online is from me. And, um, uh, but it was all taken and then without any context, just it, it provided a conspiracy in a narrative where you could say Hunter Biden laptop corruption, Hunter Biden laptop Biden crime family, Hunter Biden laptop Ukraine, Hunter Biden laptop China. I had 20 years of experience, you know? I mean, the thing that people, uh, uh, have this, the, the, the narrative that took hold in the image that was created of me was this near do well fail son who had been drifting off of his

• 12:43Speaker 02

  father's coattails, you know? I mean, shit, man, I, whether you like it or not, is that I broke my ass off enough to go to Yale law school and start my own business and, uh, and build a family. And they conflated my addiction with just complete and utter failure. And, um, and my addiction to crack cocaine in particular, which is the most kind of graphic part of, of my addiction, the hardest part was alcohol for me. The most dangerous piece of it was alcohol. And they conflated those two things. And what they did was, is that the New York Post was literally in league with Steve Bannon and a guy named, uh, Miles Gao, um, who's a Chinese billionaire who now is serving 68 years

• 13:28Speaker 02

  in prison for fraud. And he, and they took one, they were one silo and they pushed out the images globally. There's a whole tape of them literally talking about it and what they were doing and how they were, took, um, uh, liberty with the images and how they, uh, you know, created these narratives outside of the United States and pushed it back in. And then there was Rudy Giuliani, Bernie Kerik and Rudy Giuliani's lawyer, and they got their information from a guy named, uh, Andre Derkach, who was a, uh, GSA, a Russian operative inside of Ukraine sanctioned by the United States. And they warned Giuliani that he was talking to a Russian operative. Uh, and I mean, just the, what

• 14:13Speaker 02

  just came out from Trump, remember he did that document dump?

• 14:17Speaker 03

  The AMAs?

• 14:19Speaker 02

  What?

• 14:19Speaker 03

  The UFO?

• 14:20Speaker 02

  No, he just did a document dump where he'd had the big press conference to be able to show that election interference in, in 2020.

• 14:27Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 02

  One of the documents that they mistakenly released, classified documents was a report from the NDI saying that Vladimir Putin was personally running a, um, an op on Joe Biden by using his, uh, using US officials to, um, uh, to, uh, promote disinformation around Hunter Biden. And, um, and that was it. And they knew it and Giuliani knew it at the time.

• 14:52Speaker 03

  Well, what do you think Putin's beef with you would be?

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Oh, we had no beef. Look, none of this is about me.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Right.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  None of it. I mean, literally, I mean, I don't, I, there's nothing that, I mean, I, I feel like I've had a, uh, uh, I, I, I, I am comfortable, more comfortable in who I am and what I have achieved in my life and, uh, and what I haven't in my failings and more open about it, I think than anybody in, in, you know, that I know of at least right now. But none of it was about me. It's all about power. It all is about the most powerful position in the world in which you have control over, uh, you know, uh, the, the direction of the lives of, you know, an entire planet. And so.

• 15:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. Can you explain that to me? Like the president, how much like power does the president actually have to be like, here's how we're doing stuff?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Well, I, the amount of power that a president has is dependent upon their adherence to the constitution. And so part of it is, is that whether you recognize the limits to your power and, and, uh, and so I don't think that, uh, I think that, that Trump, for better or worse, uh, uh, well, I think for way worse, has blown through all of those, not just, uh, norms, but the, the, the constitution.

• 16:14Speaker 03

  So you're saying if you stick to the rules, you don't actually have that much power?

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Well, if you stick to the rules, there is, there is the, the, the, the central piece of the constitution is the separation of powers.

• 16:25Speaker 03

  And they all stick to their rules. That's what's awesome about presidents.

• 16:29Speaker 02

  None of them, none of them necessarily have stuck to the rules. And for instance, Teddy Roosevelt, who was one of my heroes as a president, despite all of his failings as it relates to his views on race and other things that were, I take a product of his time in, you know, late 1800s or early 1900s. He didn't, but you know what he did? He created, he used the power, which I don't think that he was necessarily granted by the constitution to create the national parks. He used that power to build the Panama Canal. He used that power, uh, to break the trust and, and to completely, um, in my opinion, save this country from being swallowed up by an oligarchy in the, in the late 1800s and

• 17:13Speaker 02

  early 1900s led by John D. Recapella. And so he used that power to advance the interest of normal people, common people. Um, and he called it the, um, the square, the squared deal. And his cousin then, uh, used it to implement, uh, the, the new deal. And, and many people would argue, and they certainly did then, is that he went way beyond his constitutional authority. Abraham Lincoln went beyond his constitutional authority in many instances as related to the way in which he inscripted people or didn't inscript people into the, into the civil war and the way in which he enforced the emancipation proclamation. Real question of whether or not there was, um, that,

• 17:57Speaker 02

  that, that was constitutionally available to him in the way that he did it. I'm not saying the presidents have not, uh, gone outside of the constitutional authority particularly. I mean, I don't know. Have you ever read the devil's chessboard?

• 18:11Speaker 03

  I can't read.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, have you listened to the devil's chessboard?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  No, not yet.

• 18:16Speaker 02

  Audio, listen to it because actually how I did it while I, while I paint, I always listen to books. And it is a story of the Dulles brothers, beginning before World War One and their rise to power. One became secretary of state, one became the, um, the, uh, the founder of the CIA. Um, he's not the founder of the CIA, but the, the guy. And one has Dulles Airport named after him and the other is probably, you know, the most important person as it relates to our covert, um, agencies of anyone in, in the country. And he was almost a full blown fucking Nazi. I mean, literally, I

• 18:56Speaker 02

  mean, he did more to rescue Nazis after World War Two, uh, the really bad ones, um, to come into the United States to, and go other places.

• 19:05Speaker 03

  And what do you do that for? To get like their secrets?

• 19:07Speaker 02

  Money.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Oh, really?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Well, but there's, and this is what I've always, I, what I, what I think. I think that there are two things in this country. One of them is our original sin as, as relates to slavery. And the fact that we have never fully, um, uh, and I'm not talking that we reparations or anything I'm, I'm saying, but it, it's a fact is that the systemic rot in the United States of America goes back to slavery. And it goes back into the way in which the hypocrisy of the founding fathers as it relates to their principles of freedom and liberty, not necessarily applying to everybody. But the constitution was built to evolve and to, um, uh, that you were, you know, and that's why

• 19:51Speaker 02

  we have, what, 26 amendments to the constitution or whatever. And, and, but after Lincoln, we had an opportunity in reconstruction and Lincoln had a plan and he, you know, like 40 acres and a mule, like that and the whole idea. And there was a, uh, uh, there was a real renaissance directly after the civil war. And like, for instance, in South Carolina, directly after the civil war, the entire state legislature was, was black. They elected, but you had a, until a, um, till this one town, and I forget the name of the town. And the town basically rose up and, and, uh, the

• 20:34Speaker 02

  white people in the town rose up. They murdered every black person that was in a position of authority in the South and the federal government did nothing about it. Because after Lincoln was killed, Andrew Johnson comes forward and he takes away all of those things. He, and we basically end up with a Jim Crow South all the way up until 1968.

• 20:55Speaker 03

  Right.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  In which the active participation of 10% to 12% of our population was, you know, was not just segregation. I mean, it was a form of apartheid. And, and to say that like, oh, just get over that, we have not structurally gotten over it. There has been a, in my opinion, a permanent confederacy class in the United States of America. And it's a, it's a mix of Christofascism and, uh, and, and an oligarchy that recognizes the power of, of, of feeding people a narrative in which if you are, uh, if, if you're white and you're, um, and, and you're poor, don't look up, look, look down to find your problems.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:41Speaker 02

  And, and, and I, and, and I, and whether or not that is the, the full reason, Matt, I, I see your skepticism around it. And I'm not saying that there is any, uh, um, that, that that is everything, but I am saying this. Is that we have never truly gotten to the systemic root of so many of the things that continue to plague us, and it's the same arguments over and over again. I can't believe in 2026, we're still having the same arguments that, you know, we had, you know, when I was.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Like, we shouldn't blow up kids.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Perfect. Yeah, that's a good one.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  For real.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  Like, that's still seems to be on the table. You know, blowing up, blowing up kids is always on the table for the United States because we're always blowing up kids. Like, no matter who the president is, they always end up blowing up kids.

• 22:34Chris Williamson?

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• 23:18Chris Williamson?

  That's $1 a day to stop guessing with your health and start knowing. And right now, you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. So get the exact same blood panels that I do and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That, like, time around the laptop release, I'm still just so fascinated how, what it feels like to be a human, just like a normal person with that level of global scrutiny. Because it must be the most, I can't think of a more deranging situation to go through. You're what, 18 months into sobriety?

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:56Chris Williamson?

  Two months, what, two years into sobriety? You got a new, new family, new kid. This thing happens, you're in Palm Springs.

• 24:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 00

  It's hell.

• 24:04Chris Williamson?

  I don't understand how, I don't understand what that feels like, what it's like to go through that.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  It was, uh, it was paralyzing in the moment, you know? Only, the only thing I think that I could, uh, how to explain it or articulate it that you would feel it is like, remember when, like, you were a kid and you knew you did like something like really bad?

• 24:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  And you had this, like, you're like feeling in your chest and you don't know what to do and you're like, you just don't want to leave your room and you, you know, like, whatever it is. Is that, that's what it felt like. And I, and I didn't know what was gonna happen next, you know? There was no path. It wasn't like, uh, I'm gonna accuse you of bribery in Ukraine because of this. I can deal with that because I know it's not true and I can show you the paperwork and I can show you what I did and I can show you this, that and the other thing. In this instance, it was like, we got naked pictures of you smoking crack with prostitutes in a motel and we're gonna dump them all online.

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Now, thank God, not by any design, is that right when I got sober, I, I did an interview with a guy named Adamantos, who was writing for The New Yorker at the time, in which, I don't know where it came from, but I, it was a miracle, is that I just decided to tell him everything on the record about all, about my addiction. And, and everybody thinks that that was like some kind of like PR, you know, like genius kind of like thing. And it truly wasn't. It was literally like, Adamantos, I knew to be a really great writer, fair journalist, and I just thought, you know what? Like, there ain't any hiding this.

• 25:55Chris Williamson?

  Oh, the people thought that you were, it was a gambit to front run future headlines that were gonna come out so that you could say, oh, I've already got out ahead of it.

• 26:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, the first person, Adam told me, the first person that called him was Steve Bannon and said, you, you scooped us. And, and, uh, and I didn't know that until after the laptop that came out because they had the laptop way back.

• 26:15Chris Williamson?

  Was there ever a moment when you thought that partying stuff could bring down your dad's presidency?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, then, in the, uh, I mean, so it goes up on, on all social media feeds and for like a 72 hour period of time, uh, it's, it's up, but then they take it down, which makes it so much worse that they take it down.

• 26:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:36Speaker 02

  Okay? I mean, it's the Barbra Streisand effect. It's like.

• 26:39Chris Williamson?

  Triple conspiracy now.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  And the reason that they took it down is one reason, is because it violated their, uh, their, their, their terms of service. Is because what they were putting up is nude pictures of me without my consent, which is called revenge porn, which is now, uh, a federal criminal statute that Melania got passed.

• 26:58Speaker 00

  Hunter, may I ask you a, it's, it's a personal question, something I think people are curious about.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  Why did you take all those pictures? Like, you know?

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  In, in, I understand you were like smoking crack. What? Yeah, you look great. But like, what, but what?

• 27:18Speaker 00

  But when I'm like on a binder.

• 27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:20Speaker 00

  The last thing I want is like snap and shot.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Go look at, here's the thing, is the truth. Go look at the pictures. Is that, but all, most of the pictures that you see, I didn't take.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Who took them?

• 27:32Speaker 02

  I'm asleep. Like, one of them, like, one of those always that's shown all the time over and over again is me with a meth pipe in my mouth, sleeping.

• 27:40Speaker 00

  Who, who sleeps with, that's, I was curious about that too. I did, I always thought when you smoked meth.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. I didn't, I wasn't a meth smoker, I hate meth.

• 27:47Speaker 00

  But how did the pipe?

• 27:48Speaker 02

  You're just trying to be cool with a meth pipe.

• 27:51Speaker 00

  Okay, I get that. I get that.

• 27:54Speaker 02

  No, it is not cool to have a meth pipe in your mouth. It's much cooler.

• 27:58Speaker 00

  How did you fall asleep? Did they put it in your mouth? How do you fall asleep with them? They put it in your mouth.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Somebody, so I was asleep, somebody took their meth pipe, put it next to me and took a picture and then put it online. And they then collected all of this stuff. Go back and look at the pictures. Now, there's some that are like me, there's some, the sex tapes are real. I took them. It was me. Yeah, for sure. And, and I'll tell you why. Why, why would they take these pictures? But by the way, here's the reason. So it's out of my fucking mind. Right. I mean, just out of my mind. You're so alone.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  There's nothing even remotely romantic about it. I don't talk about how I make crack to romanticize it. I don't, I just, all that I talk about is addiction and, and the whole reason to do any of this, there's 50 million people right now in America, and I think it's way more, 50 million people are dealing with their own problems and their struggles in, uh, with addiction. Which means that everybody at this table undoubtedly has someone that they care deeply about, that has dealt with or is dealing with a life threatening addiction. Everybody. So we all talk about it like, like, what the hell happened? Well, I don't know. You know what I mean?

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Drink a gallon of vodka and smoke, um, you know, about, you know, three grams of crack, you know, on a, in any 24 hour period of time is that, you know? And so also what happens is you don't, there's no one normal to associate with once you're in that.

• 29:36Speaker 00

  Right.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  And so what you're around are people that are very, very predatory.

• 29:41Chris Williamson?

  Who were you associating with?

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Mainly strippers and, and, and everything that comes around that. And, and I'm not denigrating anybody that is an exotic dancer in any way.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  But that is where, yeah.

• 29:55Speaker 02

  It's party and play. But by the way, but that is where you find access to drugs. That's where you find access to company.

• 30:03Chris Williamson?

  Never ending party.

• 30:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and, and that is where you have, there's no confusion.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  About what your relationship is. And, and, and so you end up in this world of this culture in which everything is a, um, uh, is what you, what, what you can get from the other person. And oftentimes it was, you know, I mean, like, I'm positive, like, I know reporters have said that, you know, people were selling them photographs in, into this, you know, into this thing. And so anyway, regardless, I, the other side of it was the other thing is that, you know, the, um, you know, yeah, there's some sex tapes in there that, then they're all mine.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Did you go back? I'm, I'm so sorry and I don't want to seem like a weirdo. I'm just curious. I've always been curious of you filming themselves humping. Did you go back and watch yourself humping?

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Sorry, the tape?

• 31:04Speaker 00

  You never went, it's like when you film fireworks. Nobody goes back and looks at the fireworks.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  No.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  But by the way, here's the thing, man. Is that, you know what? Is that, would I do that sober? No. But here, and the other part of it is, so, but am I the first person to, you know, freaky tape? Film themselves making a sex tape?

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Nothing wrong with that.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Not even like, I don't know, like, why Tommy Lee and, and what's her name do? Why did, why did, you know, I mean, like, what, whatever. And I certainly, if not Tommy Lee, but my point is, is that when you're addicted to crack, I, it is never, look, my drug use can never be, um, uh, an excuse.

• 31:49Speaker 00

  Ah.

• 31:49Speaker 02

  Okay? Never an excuse for any of the behavior. I'm accountable for all of it. No matter what, it's still me, whether I was out of my fucking mind or not.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  Got it.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  But it is an explanation.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  Sure. Yeah, I love that you don't do that.

• 32:01Speaker 02

  And by the way, it's not, it's not an explanation that, I know that you're not, um, that we all aren't like, hopefully, willing to, um, uh, have the grace to, um, to extend to the people that we love.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  In order not to forever shame them or tell them that they have to wear the scarlet A of addiction for the rest of their life. Because otherwise, nobody. I, I am, and by the way, I am, I, the, the beautiful, so to end of your, to get to the very end of what your question is, how did I react to the laptop coming out? At first, it was paralyzing. It was awful. And in leading into two weeks before the election, and I'm thinking, oh my God, you know, in an election which we all know that there's gonna be, you know, on the margins, regardless of whether we won by, you know, eight million votes or whatever the hell it is, it always comes down to, you know, hundreds of thousands of votes in these states

• 33:00Speaker 02

  and, and it was like.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Not only am I going to fuck this up for my dad, the person who I adore most in the world, but I'm gonna fuck it up for the whole world. Like, this is like, if you were on the other side of this election, you were voting, thinking like, this is like existential.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  Fuck.

• 33:22Speaker 02

  And so I just am like, and the first thing your brain tells you, no matter how far out you are, it can be less in terms of the intensity, is I know how you shouldn't feel, how you can get out of feeling this way. But you better do it, because if you don't do it, I mean, your brain literally telling you this.

• 33:39Chris Williamson?

  How tempted were you to relapse at that time?

• 33:43Speaker 02

  I don't know, you know? I, I mean, I don't know, because I choose not to like, to go back there. I don't know. Have you ever listened to Chase Hughes?

• 33:53Chris Williamson?

  Yes, he's been on the show.

• 33:54Speaker 02

  Oh, has he? He's amazing. He just did a video. Uh, I mean, he just did, he dropped this thing a day ago, um, two days ago, about memory. And how there is no such thing as memory. Every time we go back and think of it, it, there is no original recording. We tape over every time. And whatever the last recording is, is, becomes the memory until you.

• 34:19Chris Williamson?

  It's almost like you're rewriting it as opposed to retrolling it.

• 34:21Speaker 02

  So I don't know how close I was. I choose to say today, my memory of it is this, is the morning after it came out, and it was on the front page of the New York Post, and there's a naked picture of me, like, you know, with all that stuff. Okay? And then filled with naked pictures behind it, and it's everywhere. And I'm not on social media at this time, so I don't, I don't know about that part of it. But it's everywhere. I, uh, I couldn't sleep all night. And I, uh, but like, six in the morning, my six-month-old is up and we, and I had to do our routine, you know?

• 35:03Speaker 02

  And I rolled over in bed, and I looked at this woman who had saved my life. Beautiful woman in every way that had saved my life, and this perfect little angel. And I was like, Dick, you got a choice.

• 35:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  I mean, and, and what a gift that is. You know, to, most everything in life, from my experiences, is like, yeah, you could do this, or you could do that.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, like, to me, it became, you either do this and live, or you die. Because, can you imagine if I relapsed then? I mean, I would be so dead. The level of shame that I would have had. There's no, there would have been no way to hide it. There would have been no, I would literally, it would have been, I, the faster way would have been to take a gun to my head.

• 35:57Speaker 03

  Hmm, yeah.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  That would have, and, and, but I, but I was wholly cognizant of at the time. And what a fucking gift that is. Because, you know what? Most people have to go through it and, you know, fight their way to like, you know, go spend seven years in Rishikesh and, and.

• 36:18Chris Williamson?

  You did the Navy SEAL Hell Week equivalent.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  What'd you do?

• 36:21Speaker 02

  For me, what did I do? I just chose to live, man. Oh, oh, the, when I.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  You're kicked. You go to rehab?

• 36:26Speaker 02

  In June of 2019?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  No, I'd gone to so many rehabs. Melissa, she's like, it ends now. And like, within a week of her saying that, you know, I was off crack. And then within like, three weeks of that, I had my last drink. And it was hard. The, the alcohol is the, is the most frightening part of, um, of re, of, uh, of detox, because you can actually die from, uh, from withdrawing from alcohol. And like with benzos, the same thing, which is like freeze-dried alcohol, basically. Because it, it impacts every organ in your body, alcohol does. Every pleasure center of your brain. The crack, this cocaine is, um, you know, three days and it's out of your system. And, you know, there's no physiological impact.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  Maybe a little bit of grayness in the way that you, like, everything appears to you. But, um, but the alcohol is the hardest part.

• 37:18Chris Williamson?

  You seem incredibly sharp for somebody that's had pretty protracted addiction for a long time.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  You know why? Is that I, I benefit from the advantage of the lowest expectations of probably any guest you've ever had.

• 37:33Chris Williamson?

  Because he's fucking upright and cognizant.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Exactly. Like, oh my God.

• 37:37Chris Williamson?

  No, I disagree. You're, you're.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  You're a sharp guy.

• 37:39Chris Williamson?

  You're, you're very, I, I would have assumed he'd been totally pickled.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't, exactly. Maybe, maybe it preserved the, the parts.

• 37:47Chris Williamson?

  Oh, like, yeah, like putting him from Aldehart.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. But I don't know. I, I, um, you know, but here's the thing about that. It's like, you know, the smartest fucking people I know are recovering addicts. You know, um, and, um, not a whole.

• 38:03Chris Williamson?

  That, like, the genius madness.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, there's a couple.

• 38:06Chris Williamson?

  There's a few that are in there. Did you ever, uh, do you ever think that your dad might not give you the pardon?

• 38:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. If he, if he had won, he wouldn't have pardoned me.

• 38:13Speaker 03

  Damn.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  He, a hundred percent.

• 38:15Speaker 03

  That's, you'd have been grounded, basically.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  I mean, by the way.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 38:20Chris Williamson?

  That's exactly right. In my 50s and I'm grounded again.

• 38:23Speaker 03

  I mean, that's high stakes.

• 38:24Speaker 00

  But he did such a good job. I mean, I think, you know, you were talking earlier, we all have, we all know people.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:31Speaker 00

  Who have just, like, when someone is in active addiction, it is, it's like, it's like having a honey badger, but it's in your family, just eating everything up. And I remember your dad was so loving to you. Like, it was, he was so sweet with you. And that's really hard to do, because when it's someone's like, you know, addicts ruin not just their own life. They ruin like communities. They ruin, and they do it again and again.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Everybody. It's like a nuclear bomb dropping in your family.

• 39:01Speaker 00

  And you don't know what to do. It's like a demon is possessing somebody.

• 39:04Chris Williamson?

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• 39:47Chris Williamson?

  Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to livemomentous.com/modernd wisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. What are the coolest things about your dad that nobody knows? Or that you wish more people knew?

• 40:05Speaker 02

  Hmm. That's a tough one, because, uh, you know, people know so much. Or at least they think that they know so much. I think the thing about my dad that is, uh, that I wish more people knew is how genuine he truly is about how much he loves people. You know, I, I'll give you an example, is that I think my dad, since he's been in public life, and the number has, has just only grown over the course of time. But probably has, um, you know, a dozen or, you know, more people, um, kids

• 40:47Speaker 02

  that, um, uh, that he's met at rope lines or people have written a letter that stutter. They call my dad and spend a half an hour on the phone with him, you know, once a month, you know?

• 41:00Chris Williamson?

  Doing like voice coaching?

• 41:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, just letting them know that, you know, don't be defined by this. You, you know, this, I mean, as he says, he tells every one of them, is that, you know, stuttering, it's, it's because you're so smart. And, you know, I mean, I like, I listen to him, and he didn't, I mean, nobody knows that. Um, uh, and he doesn't, it's not like he advertises that. But I've gotten so many, now that I'm on social media, which is, you know, I don't know how long that's gonna last. But the, uh.

• 41:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, something else to drop?

• 41:29Speaker 02

  No, no, I mean, just like, yeah, like, God, I'm like.

• 41:33Chris Williamson?

  It looks like you're having a good time on that.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, parts of it, I am. I am.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  What, can I ask you just, uh, so when you were, so, no, not you. When your dad was running and everyone was going, and I'm not trying to be a dick, when it was like, seemed visibly like obvious that he was getting a little too old, I think, to like, actually be the president. Like, there were signs, unless it was just the TV, there were signs of cognitive decline. I felt bad. I was like, why are they doing this to this guy? Why, like, that, that seems like insane that we would, like, anyone who's in their mid-80s would be like, yeah, get out there and just have like the most important discussion ever.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, look, I think that there are, uh, I, I think part of that's fair, and part of that is, is, uh, your algorithm. Now, here's what I mean by that. My dad got old. He got old before everybody's eyes. He literally lost his dad. He started to, um, get his gait shortened, which was very much noticeable. He never had a, uh, a incident like the debate before or after. I mean, it truly, and it's not like I'm saying that, and you don't have, uh, thousands of hours of tape on either side of that debate of my dad in front of a camera. And.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  What you're talking about, I think, is kind of like the Fox News, you know, like getting Joe Biden like this. You know what I mean? No, it wasn't. It wasn't that. It wasn't that. Or tripping at the, tripping at the thing, but regardless, okay, to, to answer your question. Yeah. Does he got older? Yeah. Yeah. And do, do I, am I 100% certain that he was capable of continuing to make the, uh, decisions and do the job of actually, uh, what the president is supposed to do? Yes. Did he have the ability to communicate that to the American people to the degree that he needed to win an election? Maybe, maybe not. And, um, but we'll never know.

• 43:30Chris Williamson?

  I, I agree with you about how I felt, you know, watching that debate. It, it really felt, and to some degree as well with Trump, like the guy is old. These people, these are old men and what you're doing is you're watching guys that should be fucking granddad. I, I'm not saying that you need to fucking retire, whatever. Like, I'm sure people are competent until old age. You're watching people that should be twilight of life, enjoying the time with what they've built. Like punch drunk box is being rolled out for one more fight that I'm like, you're trading, and it's noble and heroic in some ways, you're trading your health, your, uh, time, which is increasingly limited on this planet for like the nation. You're just trying to hold this thing, or maybe it's not the nation, maybe it's the party, maybe it's a duty for the higher good.

• 44:15Chris Williamson?

  It's part of the mission, but you're like watching this person basically go, okay, I'm gonna take this bit of me, which is increasingly precious and, and short-lived, and I'm gonna exchange it in order to serve this fucking engine.

• 44:29Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:29Chris Williamson?

  This massive machine. And I think anyone that's got a soul looked and was like, holy fuck. That's gotta be, that's gotta be so hard. You've got these two things you want to do. Plus you're like ego still exists.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Can I, can I add to that? Like, and again, I think what is rotten, I don't mean rotten, but what must be very hard about your incarnation is that you, people dissect your family and you, and it's, and I'm, I'm so sorry because it sounds insensitive, but when I saw your dad, I just thought, you know, I don't think I'd want to take a road trip with him driving. And if I don't feel comfortable with somebody driving a car with me, I don't want them to have access to a nuclear arsenal, man, or in all the quick decisions you have to make. Can I ask, I, I get your point. Okay. And I get everybody's point. All right. Yeah, we're not slamming your dad. That's the thing. No, no, no. And, and it wasn't like, oh, Fox News. It wasn't that. I was like, damn, this is sad.

• 45:21Speaker 02

  As it relates to, uh, decisions that my dad made, they weren't mine, but I, I'm willing to talk about them. As it relates to his age, it was, it's, it's all public. So I don't, I don't take it as a criticism. It is a conversation that, by the way, we're all gonna have. As you have a aging America in which people are capable of continuing to do the thing that they are professional at with the wisdom and the experience that they have, in which their physical appearance and their physical capacity to do things slows down. Okay? Yeah.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  And so, but here's the other side of it is the job of being president is not purely about competence, experience and wisdom. It is also about the capacity for you to communicate that to people. So what he did not communicate to people was that he could drive the car. Right. And that's a fair criticism. Absolutely. 100% is fair. Now, should he have stepped aside for who and what? Because remember what you're coming off of. You're coming off of January 6th. You're coming off the pandemic. You're coming off of the incredible dislocation and disruption of an economy

• 46:43Speaker 02

  in which everything went offline for a period of time and which created the largest, uh, uh, unemployment in this history and, and, and a potential of a recession. And you're also coming across this incredible success of two years in which all of that competence and wisdom. Remember when he became president, they said he'll never get a bill passed. The Congress is too close. He only had, uh, one, uh, seat in the Senate and he had four seats in the House. There's no way that he'll ever get anything done. He passed more legislation in a two-year period of time than any president since Lyndon Johnson, who had super majorities in both the House and the Senate. Anybody. He had the best midterms of any sitting president since, uh, FDR in 1932.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  He won more state houses and governor, governorships. The smallest number of congressional seats lost of any president since 1932. So he's rolling off of these successes. Okay? And it opens up to a primary and who runs? There's no bigger name than Bobby, uh, Bobby Kennedy. There's nobody. This whole idea that there's a democratic, well, it's like since the beginning of time, of course, there's a democratic establishment in, in whatever. And so he makes what ends up, depending upon your perspective, the fateful decision to, um, you know, to stand for reelection. And then comes the debate and I can't explain it. I truly can't.

• 48:09Speaker 02

  Everybody can have their conspiracy theories. Everybody can think that, oh, that's how he is. But I can, all I can say is not a single person that worked with him on the record is gone and said, Joe Biden wasn't cognitively capable to be president of the United States. You can definitely make the argument of whether he was cognitively capable of, or communicatively capable of, of, uh, making the case to the American people. But here's where we, you know, stand. And the, one last thing about this.

• 48:38Speaker 02

  Is that when it came time to make the decision, okay? After, you know, the, the, what I call the, the insider, the true insider, the, the, um, the elite class of the democratic establishment, because the DNC is not that. There's no, it's like the money people. It's the people that fund the party. Right. Okay. When they made the determination that they wanted Joe Biden out and basically said, we are going to fight you all the way to the convention, because they couldn't take it away from him legally. I mean, he was the nominee, um, you know, period. And, um, and he got COVID. There's that horrible picture of him getting back on the plane in, in, um, because he passed all the hurdles.

• 49:21Speaker 02

  He did the Stephanopoulos interview for an hour and 10 minutes. He did the NATO summit, um, press conference for an hour and 30 minutes and answered every question, you know, a tour de force global lake history lesson for everybody. And then he did the NAACP, um, uh, uh, convention speech and, and all of that stuff. And he went to do the next morning, he gets COVID and it wipes him out.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  And he has to make a decision that I don't know of any other president or any other person in that position has ever made before to voluntarily, without being forced to, without having any legal authority of saying, I'm gonna step aside. And I think that's really courageous. I don't think history is treating that, uh, I think history will treat that well. But also I think my dad hung the moon. So, you know what I mean? It's not like I'm, I'm, I'm biased in any way.

• 50:16Chris Williamson?

  What was that stat about your dad being the poorest president since 1900?

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, my dad entered the presidency and left the presidency with fewer assets than anybody since, I think, uh, what was, or who came up tact, maybe? No. But regardless is that when, 1972, when my dad got elected, he was 29 years old. He was too young to serve, um, when he was elected, um, by virtue of the constitution. And he turned 30 and, and when he, uh, in between the time he was, he won and when he was sworn in. And he made, and that, he made a promise during that campaign that he would never own a stock or a bond for the single purpose of reason that Spiro Agnew had just gone through, uh, that, you know, had gotten impeached and removed before Nixon ever got impeached.

• 51:07Speaker 02

  And, um, and he kept that. So he lived off his salary, which by the way, wasn't a bad salary. But just remember, 1972 was like $48,000 a year and then it went up to 68,000. And then when I was in, you know, school, it was like 150,000.

• 51:21Chris Williamson?

  You're taking a tip from Nancy Pelosi.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, but, but yeah. But my point is this, my dad entered the vice presidency that way. The only time my dad ever made money, you know, the Biden crime family, like bullshit.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  My dad wrote a book. And what did he do with the money that he wrote a book when he left the vice presidency? He didn't go out and make speeches for private equity firms and fly to Saudi Arabia and, you know, sit on the board of, you know, XYZ hedge fund or whatever. He wrote a book and he bought my mom a beach house in Rehoboth, you know? Awesome. Yeah. And then he went into the presidency with the savings from that money and his pension. And he left the presidency and the only thing my dad has done to make money is he wrote a book. And, you know, I don't know about you, but that's what I want my president to be like. You know, I don't need them to go out and start a foundation with Saudi and, you know, UAE money

• 52:20Speaker 02

  or, you know, do a dodgy crypto deal in blah, blah, blah, particularly while they're still president. But that's my dad.

• 52:29Speaker 00

  Phone.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  What?

• 52:30Speaker 00

  You forgot the phone.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  What about the sneakers? What about the things? Look, by the way, he takes all these cool things. Like, I'm, I'm a big crypto fan.

• 52:37Chris Williamson?

  Have you got one?

• 52:38Speaker 00

  They suck.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  What?

• 52:40Chris Williamson?

  Have you got one?

• 52:40Speaker 00

  As a joke, my wife ordered me the Trump sneakers.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Other Trump sneakers?

• 52:44Speaker 00

  There's not good, they're just not, they're not good.

• 52:46Chris Williamson?

  Peter Thiel ordered you the Trump sneaker?

• 52:48Speaker 00

  My dearest friend. I don't, please cut that out, please, you don't understand.

• 52:53Chris Williamson?

  You, I love it. You challenged Don Jr. and Eric to a two-on-one cage fight.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:59Chris Williamson?

  What's happening with that?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Are you guys in my corner? I'm going. Are you really fighting him? No. I mean, I haven't heard back, but I will tell you this, I will tell you this. Is that I, I said, well, number one, it would be a great way to pay my debt. I think it would be great on pay-per-view. Literally. And if Shane could fill Franklin Field, or not Franklin Field, The Link, you know, I swear to God. I think that I could at least get half the number of people there. There would be a lot of people, I think. Yeah, I think so, too. Two-on-one's crazy. Just a chance to smack either one of them.

• 53:35Speaker 00

  I'm 56, I'm so fucking out of way.

• 53:37Chris Williamson?

  Have you been in contact? Can we prank call Don Jr. right now? Have you got his number? Can we just ring him?

• 53:42Speaker 02

  I don't have Don Jr.'s number, I have no idea.

• 53:44Speaker 00

  You don't have his number?

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, we call Peter Thiel.

• 53:46Speaker 00

  I don't, please stop. You guys, see what you don't understand? Everyone, I am not in, I don't know him, never met him, not paid by the faggot. Please, please stop.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  I, I have a question. This is sort of off, I've always been curious. What is it? I, like, I, the president has some kind of apartment in the White House, right? Where the, where, what is that like? Like, what's it like? You know, it's sort of.

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Oh, the residence?

• 54:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, every kid.

• 54:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 00

  Kind of thinks like, man, I wish my dad was president, that's gonna be cool. You get to go into the residence, you get to see.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  It's cool. It's, it's so cool. It's so amazing, the people that work there that are.

• 54:26Speaker 00

  You have butlers and stuff.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and they're incredible and they're wonderful. And they've been there for decades on some of them. And, and, and there's like, for me at least, in the residence, in, in every time I went to the White House,

• 54:44Speaker 02

  there was never without like a complete sense of awe.

• 54:48Speaker 00

  Did your dad ever cook you breakfast in there? Like, did they?

• 54:51Speaker 02

  No, but my dad's never cooked me breakfast.

• 54:53Chris Williamson?

  Presidential pancakes?

• 54:54Speaker 00

  I knew, there was a kitchen in there.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  My dad could have cooked an egg, just to be clear.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 54:58Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now, I'm a great cook, but he would, no.

• 55:00Speaker 00

  But there's a kitchen, I just always wonder about that private life of a.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  There's a little, there's a little kitchenette off the residence. The residence is on the, you know, if you're looking at the front of the White House, you enter into like the main hall.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  It has the public, I mean, the rooms in which like the, the, like the blue, the red room, the green room, the, you know, where they have some of the steak dinners and stuff like that, where you always see the pictures in the cross hall, like, you know, that red carpet and the floor above it, the two floors above it are the residence. And there's the, one end of it is all the president's, you know, like quarters and the first ladies. And then there's the Lincoln bedroom, the Queen's bedroom, and then there's a, there's like six or eight other bedrooms upstairs, like guest and stuff like that.

• 55:48Speaker 00

  Secret doors?

• 55:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, oh yeah, there's secret doors.

• 55:51Speaker 00

  Are you serious?

• 55:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 55:53Chris Williamson?

  Did you find them? Did you get shown? Do you get shown like, hey, this is how you fucking Marilyn Monroe your way out of there?

• 55:58Speaker 02

  The doors that are secret that aren't secret anymore. You know what I mean? You see like, whoa, there's a line in that wall.

• 56:04Chris Williamson?

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• 56:49Chris Williamson?

  We're going to the link in the description below. We're heading to drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  Did you ever, you ever in the White House and think like, it's not as cool as I thought?

• 57:02Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 57:03Speaker 02

  Really? You're always like, this rules.

• 57:04Chris Williamson?

  It's just rules.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  Well, here's what you think. I mean, if you have any kind of like appreciation for where you are, it's like, holy shit. Like.

• 57:15Speaker 00

  It's insane.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Like, not this actual floor, because it's been done, Truman did it, you know? I mean, it's not the same, but it's like, on this grounds, you know, the course of history has been changed dozens and dozens and dozens of times. And sometimes for good, sometimes for real ill and, and.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  It's gotta be so haunted.

• 57:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I bet you.

• 57:39Speaker 00

  Is it haunted? Did you ever have any ghost encounters there? Am I ruining this?

• 57:42Speaker 02

  I did not.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  I'm sorry.

• 57:43Chris Williamson?

  This is the exact direction I want to go in.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  Okay, great. Is it haunted? Is there, like, it's.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, like, yeah, they say that, but I, I didn't have.

• 57:52Chris Williamson?

  Did you ever walk around there at night, just like staring at shit with your jaws?

• 57:56Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I, I'm in a, now, here's the thing, is I didn't get to spend much time there. And one of the reasons I didn't get to spend much time there is because every time I was there, it became an incredible distraction. So I'd show up and I'd go walk on the South Lawn with my dad and the dog, and they'd take a picture and it would be on the front page of the New York Post, and they would say the indicted or the soon-to-be indicted or the drug addict son or the thing. And so it became really, really uncomfortable, like.

• 58:22Chris Williamson?

  That's gonna suck. You fucking, your dad has finally made it. This is the opportunity for me to be the son that gets to have presidential pancakes.

• 58:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:29Chris Williamson?

  And because of the way that kind of we arrived, I don't get to fully, like, embrace that. That's gonna suck.

• 58:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, but thank you.

• 58:37Chris Williamson?

  Well, you're not, I'm not supposed to be there to have fun.

• 58:39Speaker 02

  No, no, I'm saying, yeah, you are. By the way, if you can't, then it's crazy. I mean, but, but thank you for saying that.

• 58:49Speaker 02

  But I can't say that, because like, oh, woe is me. You know what I mean? Like.

• 58:53Chris Williamson?

  Fuck that, dude. My dad's president? My dad works for 50 years to become president? I want fucking pancakes.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Well, by the way.

• 58:59Chris Williamson?

  For more than, what, 20 days? 20, 25 days, you said? Out of the entirety of the time you got to stay at the White House?

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, maybe. Like, more, no, probably more than that. Like, I think like 30 or 40. And I got to go to Camp David and I get to fly in Marine One and you get to go on Air Force One. And every time you do, you think, oh my God, this is the coolest thing. And I think if you don't, you're a jackass. I mean, if you lose that, like, if you lose, like, walking in, like, walking down the colonnade to the Oval Office without the feeling of like, holy shit, then I think that you are.

• 59:34Chris Williamson?

  That's pretty sad.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  That's awesome. Yeah. But I didn't get to spend as much time with him

• 59:41Speaker 02

  as, as I normally would have. If it weren't for the fact that I was a crack addict. There are pictures of it and I was being investigated by the Department of Justice for, you know, this, that and the other thing. Part of us.

• 59:56Chris Williamson?

  That bag of coke at the White House wasn't yours.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  No. Okay.

• 59:59Chris Williamson?

  Oh, yeah, what's up with that? How, how upset were you that someone else found it?

• 1:00:02Speaker 02

  Okay? I've, I've literally, I've listened to all of you. I've listened to you, I've heard you, and you're all like, I don't know, I don't know, it could have been his, but I guess not.

• 1:00:13Chris Williamson?

  Who's do you think it was? Because it's fucking someone's.

• 1:00:15Speaker 02

  I have no clue.

• 1:00:16Chris Williamson?

  It's someone, who's the hit list?

• 1:00:17Speaker 00

  Pull up a diagram of the.

• 1:00:18Chris Williamson?

  Who's the fucking biggest hit list?

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Of the, of the White House, okay? Let's see.

• 1:00:22Chris Williamson?

  Diagram of White House? Are you gonna place the, the bag of cocaine?

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  How big was the sack? How big were we talking? I have no idea.

• 1:00:28Chris Williamson?

  Eight ball?

• 1:00:29Speaker 02

  I mean, it didn't come to me and say, Hunter, we want to show you this.

• 1:00:32Chris Williamson?

  Well, you could have.

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  Hunter, Hunter, come here.

• 1:00:34Chris Williamson?

  We're aware that you may be able to trace where this came from. Here we go.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Okay. So if you look at the, okay, so you see there, see where it says White House in the middle?

• 1:00:42Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 02

  Okay? So the West Wing is where the Oval Office is. The White House is where the residence is. I am under Secret Service protection during this period of time. When I enter the White House, I enter off of the South Lawn, which is the big ellipses, you know what I mean? Like the, the circular driveway on, on the, on the southern part, okay? So you enter the White House through the.

• 1:01:06Chris Williamson?

  Middle bit?

• 1:01:06Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:01:07Chris Williamson?

  Through the middle?

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Right, right to the middle. And right as you go through the middle, you go to an elevator and you go up to the residence, okay? That is how the Secret Service brings me in and they, and they're with me, like, as far as you are from me, everywhere I go, outside of making it to the elevator, to that, to go up to the second floor.

• 1:01:29Speaker 00

  But not the bathroom. If you want to do key bumps, you can go in the bathroom.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Other than the bathroom, yeah. Okay? True enough, but thank you for pointing that out. That was very helpful, motherfucker, I swear to God. Where was it found? So, now, now.

• 1:01:41Chris Williamson?

  Situation room, wasn't it?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, see where it says West Exec Avenue?

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. Okay. So that's where everybody else that is a part of the administration comes into the White House. So the Eisenhower Executive Office Building is where 90% of the people that say they work at the White House work. Okay. And when they come over for meetings with the Chief of Staff or the Director of National Intelligence, or whoever else is in the West Wing, they come through there. And when you go through there, you enter in on the ground floor. Above you is the Chief of Staff's office and the OVO office. Okay. And on that ground floor, as soon as you walk in, there's a desk. There's another Secret Service agent, a uniformed Secret Service agent. And if you go on the other side of

• 1:02:30Speaker 02

  that desk and take a right, there's a hallway. And that end of that hallway is the Situation Room, of which I've never been in, because you're not allowed into the fucking Situation Room unless you have top secret clearance.

• 1:02:43Chris Williamson?

  Hey dude, the fucking president, the president's son doesn't get to hang in the Situation Room.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  Okay. And in that, right in front of that door, is a set of cubbies. Okay. And the only reason I know that is it because if you go to your left, there's a little cafeteria, like, not even, it's like, table set up for like, the Chief of Staff and their offices to come have like, a bowl of soup or whatever to eat. And in those cubbies, is where they found it. And supposedly found a little bag of cocaine.

• 1:03:12Chris Williamson?

  Bowl of soup.

• 1:03:12Speaker 02

  Number one, I'm not joking around. Okay. And I don't know how much of it is, what?

• 1:03:16Speaker 03

  You shouldn't be like, I do fat sacks only.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, not only that, is I smoke crack.

• 1:03:20Speaker 03

  True. Here's the question.

• 1:03:22Speaker 02

  I smoke crack.

• 1:03:22Speaker 03

  I'll say this, though.

• 1:03:23Speaker 02

  But by the way, I'm now, at this point, I'm not in the White House when it's found. I haven't been in the White House for six weeks to a month when it's found. All right?

• 1:03:33Speaker 03

  Although, this, this does sound like the part of the movie where we're like, you know, we have the diagram. It sounds like we're planning on how we could.

• 1:03:39Chris Williamson?

  Get cocaine in the White House.

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  You know, they go through like, the ducts in the movie.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  What the fuck? No, it doesn't, Matt. You know what? That's why you went to Sally's and I went to Arch's here. Okay?

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  Exactly. Rivals forever.

• 1:03:51Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:03:52Speaker 03

  There's a duct on the sound log. You open it up, there's cocaine.

• 1:03:56Speaker 02

  Literally. This is never gonna die. Okay. I don't, by the way, here's the other thing.

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  I don't think it was yours. I genuinely.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  No, but here's the other thing. It's like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, I'll openly talk about having sex on camera with a prostitute in New Haven, Connecticut, at all, I fucking 95, smoking a crack, but like, guy like a.

• 1:04:17Chris Williamson?

  I'm looking at the bag of drugs.

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  It is so funny, just to think about.

• 1:04:20Speaker 02

  I mean, it's so ridiculous, the comparison. But it drives me insane. Now, look, that's like, you want to talk about things that online, you can say, you have your friendship with Peter Thiel to deal with.

• 1:04:30Speaker 04

  Come on! No, Peter Thiel, we are not friends.

• 1:04:36Speaker 03

  You had to have seen that, been like, fucking great. Great. This is the last thing.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  You know what? I literally, this is how obtuse I am. I was like, oh, that's weird. Kind of went about my day. I was, I was what, four or five years sober by this point? I haven't like, I've like, and by the way, like, I'm thinking like, who, like, if I relapse, no, oh, here's the other thing.

• 1:04:57Chris Williamson?

  I'm gonna do it with a bag of drugs.

• 1:04:58Speaker 02

  I'm being drug tested, but you don't want to be drug tested by the Federal Bureau of Fucking Probation, who's fucking showing up at my house.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  And they watch you pee.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Two or three times a week without not telling anybody. They had to deal with the Secret Service. They just walk into my, they'll walk into your house, like, 6 a.m. Knock on your bedroom door.

• 1:05:14Speaker 03

  And they, they watch you, right? Like a.

• 1:05:15Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And then they walk you into the bathroom and close the door with them standing like this.

• 1:05:20Chris Williamson?

  Watching you, watching you cock?

• 1:05:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  You can't use the Whizinator. You could use the Whizinator, technically.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  What's that?

• 1:05:26Speaker 03

  You ever see the Whizinator?

• 1:05:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:27Chris Williamson?

  What's the Whizinator?

• 1:05:29Speaker 03

  The Whizinator's like a fake penis.

• 1:05:30Speaker 02

  I wish I had the Whizinator when I went to the Navy. Exactly, yeah.

• 1:05:34Chris Williamson?

  Uh.

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  You need the Whizinator.

• 1:05:36Chris Williamson?

  Is it true that you still pack your bag with a witness? Is it, are you still doing that? You have to pack your bags?

• 1:05:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:41Chris Williamson?

  Have you heard this?

• 1:05:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's called a wife. They watch you. They go, that's all you're bringing in?

• 1:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's true. I swear to God. I got in a, Melissa, I got in a little discussion before I left for here. She said, you can fit it all in the backpack. I said, I like my little rolly bag to put my backpack on top of. She's like, why are you taking that?

• 1:06:02Speaker 03

  Without fail.

• 1:06:03Speaker 02

  But.

• 1:06:03Chris Williamson?

  What are the whites pushing for? More storage or less?

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  It doesn't matter. They go, either that's too much, or that's, no matter what you pack, they're like.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  Too much or too little.

• 1:06:10Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  That's wrong.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  By the way, I just want to make clear, Melissa, I did not use the voice that Matt is doing.

• 1:06:16Speaker 03

  I get in trouble. I get in trouble.

• 1:06:18Speaker 02

  I don't know what.

• 1:06:19Speaker 03

  I usually get carted.

• 1:06:20Speaker 02

  You don't sound like that.

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  My wife gets so mad. She gets so, I don't sound like that, man. Yeah, that's an ongoing problem.

• 1:06:26Speaker 02

  Okay. Here's the thing, is that, is the reason is, and only when I travel internationally, is that, that if it's out of my sight, I just think that, look, could you imagine if I got pulled over and they found drugs, you know, on me? Two would believe me. Like, if you can't believe me about that.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:06:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. The 9,000 times that I've said, are you out of your mind? I wasn't there. You can check on the fact that I wasn't there. You can see that it wasn't, like, it was in front of the, I mean, like, all of these things.

• 1:07:00Chris Williamson?

  It's too small.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Can you imagine? You know?

• 1:07:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  Right. Like, what, what would you do? And, and, and, you know, also, here's the other thing. Do you put it past any of these guys for shit like that?

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  No way. The plant, it could have been dropped for sure. It's like, dude, drop it down.

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, you know, I want, like, here, here, like, I, the, the thing that I am, I want all the questions. Like, there's nothing off limits. I want to, I want to be able to, because the, the thing that I think is the only value that I have, truly, because you don't have to agree with my politics. You don't have to agree with what I think about Donald Trump. You don't have to agree that, well, I hope everybody agrees that fucking the Beavis and Butthead are total douchebags, Don and Eric. But, is that you don't have to agree with any of this.

• 1:07:55Chris Williamson?

  Fighting talk.

• 1:07:56Speaker 03

  Beavis and Butthead is so funny.

• 1:07:57Speaker 02

  It's so true. Go look at it. Okay.

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  What's their deal? I don't know anything about them. They're just jerks?

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Well, they're rich jerks now. Like, really, really rich jerks. But the, is it, the one thing that I, that I, like, just to be like a symbol, like, fuck it, I made it. Even like, you can too. Like, if I could stay clean and sober through all of that shit, and, and get on the other side of an addiction that you can go look at how fucking awful it was. Is that, it's like, I just think, like, for that reason alone, to be out here talking

• 1:08:46Speaker 02

  to people, and to show that I can sit upright in a chair, and I can write about it, and I could talk about it without any shame. That doesn't mean I don't feel guilty about shit.

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  Doesn't mean that I made horrible decisions and abstinence myself from my family and my children in particular. Doesn't mean that I'm even remotely perfect in, in my recovery. You know, and, but, you know, there is another, there is getting to the other side of stuff. And being transparent about it isn't a weakness, it's a, it's a, it's a strength.

• 1:09:25Chris Williamson?

  You are everywhere at the moment. Would you ever consider running for office? Is there a thrust that this is working for?

• 1:09:30Speaker 02

  No. I mean, people, I'm, I'm even honored you would, you would ask that with a straight face. Because I, I really am. Because think about that. Think about asking that question, you know, before May 21st of this year, when I went on X for the first time. And, so I really appreciate that if it was said with sincerity. But, you know, I tell people, if you, if, if I announce for something within the next few years, then you will certainly know that I've relapsed.

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  But I do think there's something universally respectable about someone who goes through, I mean, it's, everyone can agree, that's every, I would say everyone's worst nightmare, and just can like, face the public and talk. Usually, I think most people would run away from that. Just be like, I'm out. I'm just gonna, kind of hide away. Now, so, what are you, what are you working towards, though? Because, I mean, you are making the rounds. What's a, what do you have designs to do?

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  I don't know. I'm trying, I, I really am. I, I am, I got some things that, I mean, I'm writing on Substack. And I, and I, I wrote a continuation of the, like, Matt, like, the last seven years, you know, from my personal perspective. And then I wrote another one, thank you very much, AI, to, that, that allowed me to take all of the collective congressional reports and, and, and reporting journalism and kind of like, what happened of, in those seven years of the things that I wasn't in the room for, like the Giuliani plot and

• 1:11:10Speaker 02

  that thing. And so, I wrote, wrote that. But the one thing that I really, really want to do is, I think that one of the ways in which people, at least for me, I know this is how it helped me, is the single, the thing that helped me most in my recovery was sharing, like, hearing other people's stories, is realizing that you weren't alone in whatever you thought that depravity was that you were living in. Then, and like, I remember the first time I sat in a room thinking, there's no way that I'm gonna be able to share this with another human being. And like, the guy next to me, like, tells a story, and I'm

• 1:11:52Speaker 02

  like, holy, fuck. Oh my God. It made me blush. And I'm like, hey, you know, like, then it becomes.

• 1:12:00Chris Williamson?

  Like, it's gonna be a very impressive story to out degenerate you.

• 1:12:04Speaker 02

  Me. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:12:05Chris Williamson?

  Was it a global incident, though? Did it move stock markets? Did it change an election?

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  True. You know who I talk, like, the reason I, and this is why I love him, is the openness with which Steve Ovahn talks about and stuff like that. I was listening to your interview with Steve Ovahn, and there's like, one part where, anyway, it, yeah, I don't even want to go through it because, yeah.

• 1:12:26Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I don't remember.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Yeah. But, but they're, they're.

• 1:12:29Speaker 03

  I have no idea what you're talking about. What the hell?

• 1:12:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, it's, I think it's better off to get as much out as possible, because it's, I don't know. It's good, it's good. I think it's good for you. It's good for everybody.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  The thing that kills you, if you're an addict.

• 1:12:44Speaker 02

  At least from my experience is you keeping that like secret and you've that shame. And there's a big difference between shame and guilt. You know, shame is basically the thing that tells you that you're not worthy of love and you never will be. Guilt is like an appropriate emotion in which you do something wrong, you gotta go make amends for it. If you live in that shame and you're never able to like, like let it go because it's a secret, you know. I mean, just crack, just talking about being a crack addict automatically sends at least people that are, you know, relatively our age into a frigging tailspin.

• 1:13:25Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:26Speaker 02

  Like their mind goes to.

• 1:13:28Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think that is?

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  Oh, I think it's number one. I think it is. It has to do with the connection to race that was created as it relates to the crack epidemic of the early 1990s. It has to do with the reality of the way in which it impacted certain communities, particularly the African American community.

• 1:13:48Speaker 00

  Do you buy the CIA was flooding?

• 1:13:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  Communities with cocaine on purpose, that that was real? You remember when they found that CIA plane full of coke?

• 1:13:56Chris Williamson?

  What's the, what's the story behind that? Cause I've heard it, but I don't actually know the story. Do you know it?

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  I don't know the story to the degree that I should, but I, look, I mean, if you want to understand like the crack epidemic from a, like a, is watch The Wire, you know what I mean? Like what is that season, you know?

• 1:14:13Chris Williamson?

  Is that no fiction?

• 1:14:14Speaker 02

  What?

• 1:14:14Chris Williamson?

  Is that not fictional though?

• 1:14:15Speaker 02

  It is fiction, but if you really want to understand the way that.

• 1:14:17Speaker 03

  I think the writer was a journalist though. I could be wrong. I think.

• 1:14:22Speaker 02

  George Pelikanos was one of the writers on that and then what's his name? But the, but yeah, I mean, it's all ripped from the pages kind of stuff.

• 1:14:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  And my only point is, is it really did destroy entire communities. But it didn't have to do with what they thought it did. They thought that it was particular to the physiological effect that crack had on people. That's where the lie is. It had to do with the, um, uh, the financial, uh, aspect of the drug. Is that you could sell and make very cheaply and over and over and over again in small quantities. And you just create this, um, uh, this market that was insatiable to feed.

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  And so it was, the violence was occurring because of the unfettered drug trade. There was so much money in it.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  And if you lived, for instance, like I did in the, in the, in the, the late eighties, early nineties in Washington DC. It was, I mean, it just ripped through Washington and you had, you know, uh, and, and what ripped through Washington was the violence that came along with the trade. And they enforced, in the, in the attempt to enforce the drug laws. And so they would crack down on communities, um, and, uh, and users rather than, uh, the people truly committing the violence was for the dealers and, and, you know, up the chain. And up the chain, I'm certain involved, uh, you know, some covert operation as related to it.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  And they didn't have anything to do with the intent of like ripping apart our cities, but had some other intent.

• 1:16:09Chris Williamson?

  What, what, what do you think?

• 1:16:12Speaker 00

  Just to give, just a way to get untraceable money or something like that. Like CIA was selling, I, I, I'm honestly, I'm not up to date on that conspiracy. But remember they found a CIA plane full of blow, which was insane. Like they're trading it to get cash.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  So just like the, just like the Iran contract, you know what I mean? Is like the, the, I mean, it's all about, um, ways to move money and to move, um, uh, uh, weapons, um, in an untraceable way. And in order to be able to do that, you like end up going into business with, you know, the really bad guys, you know? Or looking the other way when, you know, they're doing what they're doing.

• 1:16:49Chris Williamson?

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• 1:17:34Chris Williamson?

  So you can try it every single day for three months. And if you do not like it, they will give you your money back. Right now you can get a free AG1 welcome kit that includes a bottle of D3K2, an AG1 flavor sampler and that 90 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below. Heading to drinkag1.com slash Modern Wisdom. What's a conspiracy theory that you think is real, but don't talk about publicly? Like for instance, I'm pretty sure that witch is a real.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Is that a conspiracy? They're definitely real.

• 1:18:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's not a conspiracy.

• 1:18:04Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, I'm in good company, obviously, but I'm pretty sure that.

• 1:18:07Speaker 03

  This is fat, single 45 year old ladies.

• 1:18:13Speaker 03

  I mean, that's everything.

• 1:18:14Speaker 00

  It's real, man. They're everywhere.

• 1:18:16Chris Williamson?

  That wasn't what I meant. That wasn't what I meant.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  JD Vance talking about the cat lady, the doll thing, remember?

• 1:18:23Chris Williamson?

  Right, right. I'm, I'm meaning like supernatural, spiritual, put X's on you.

• 1:18:28Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:18:28Chris Williamson?

  I mean, like actual witches.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Dude, are there some here right now?

• 1:18:32Chris Williamson?

  I don't know, maybe. I think everyone's got a couple of conspiracies that they kind of hold in their mind and they're like, I kind of believe this.

• 1:18:40Speaker 00

  Okay, I've got one. And if I could, and again, apology.

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  If it has to do with the fucking coke in the white.

• 1:18:48Chris Williamson?

  Done.

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  Here's a conspiracy, here's a conspiracy theory that you must be aware of that floats around about you. And that, again, forgive me for this, but I must know, on your back.

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:58Speaker 00

  You have a tattoo of the finger lakes.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:00Speaker 00

  And people say, yeah, that this is tattooed on your back.

• 1:19:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:04Speaker 00

  Because the finger lakes are apparently one of the number one ways that like humans are trafficked. And that you have placed, you didn't know this?

• 1:19:15Speaker 00

  Oh my God. You don't go online. You don't go, pull up Hunter Biden finger lakes.

• 1:19:20Speaker 02

  Is that why everybody's asking me what are the, what, what's the tattoo?

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:19:24Chris Williamson?

  What's a finger lake?

• 1:19:25Speaker 00

  That you have a ma, a human trafficking.

• 1:19:27Speaker 02

  I do. So the finger lakes are these glacier lakes, the most beautiful lakes in the country. And they are, um, in upstate New York. My mother, my deceased mother came from Skinny Atlas, New York. And then the lake next to it is a Wasco lake. And a Wasco, at the top of a Wasco lake is a town named Auburn where the Hunter diner is. And my grandfather and, uh, and my grandmother owned and ran the Hunter diner, which is still there. It's just like a silver diner and, um, and, uh, that's where my mother grew up. And that's where my brother and I spent every summer with my, my mom, deceased, my, my deceased mother's, um, grandparents.

• 1:20:10Speaker 02

  And so it's like the most special place in the world to me is the finger lakes.

• 1:20:13Chris Williamson?

  What you're saying.

• 1:20:13Speaker 02

  And I was.

• 1:20:14Speaker 00

  Not what I'm saying.

• 1:20:15Chris Williamson?

  What the internet is saying, what you've read.

• 1:20:17Speaker 00

  What I've read.

• 1:20:18Speaker 02

  Okay. I don't understand where you traffic because they're all landlocked. Where do you traffic them to?

• 1:20:21Speaker 00

  Look up Finger Lakes.

• 1:20:23Speaker 02

  Don't, don't, don't. It's such a beautiful place. What are you gonna do this for?

• 1:20:27Chris Williamson?

  Finger Lakes, human trafficking.

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Oh my God, I'm serious. I didn't know this. I don't want to know this.

• 1:20:33Speaker 03

  It's also so funny to be doing that and be like, I'm gonna tat it just in case people.

• 1:20:39Speaker 00

  Tad doing a map on your back.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  It's like the Count of Monte Cristo or something like, just in case. The traffic are gonna do something. They can rip it off my body.

• 1:20:46Chris Williamson?

  It's like if you get lost, it's like, please return to, like, like a dog collar. Just in case you get lost somewhere.

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  That's a sweet story. Yeah. And so my, um, I didn't believe that, by the way, I just, it's a conspiracy theory that seems.

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  I didn't have heard that one. That's.

• 1:21:05Chris Williamson?

  You must, you must believe.

• 1:21:08Speaker 03

  Conspiracy theories? I'll be honest, I, I, when I was younger, I, I remember when, uh, what was the one documentary that came out? It was the Ring of Power came out when I was like 21 and you know, you're 21 years old, you just got out of college. And there were like DVDs that would go around and be like, uh, England, Washington DC and Rome are all connected in this triaxial of satanic power. And you just watch it at 21, you're like, damn, the world's crazy. And then you get older and you're like, yeah, I don't think anyone knows what the fuck's going on about anything. So in terms of conspiracy theories, I honestly don't really, I don't know anything.

• 1:21:39Chris Williamson?

  Do you believe remote viewing? That's.

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll give you one.

• 1:21:42Chris Williamson?

  Oh, here we go.

• 1:21:43Speaker 02

  I'll give you one that I believe. Read the devil's chessboard, which is an incredible book about the Dulles brothers. And it's hard not to come away with a, um, with a belief that it was not a CIA operation, but that CIA, um, assets were involved in the assassination of JFK. It's really, really difficult to, to, to not, um, uh.

• 1:22:16Speaker 02

  To explain.

• 1:22:18Chris Williamson?

  What's the most compelling elements of that?

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  The individuals, and I forget their names. I wish I like had that kind of memory, but that that were were very, very close to Alan Dulles. Dulles's hatred of of JFK and and the, I mean, anyway, there's, there's a lot. And I, because I don't, I don't want to say something that I get it, I get it wrong. And it'll be like, Hunter Biden's promoting it. You know, he's like Oliver Stone or whatever.

• 1:22:55Speaker 03

  You're saying the CIA killed.

• 1:22:57Speaker 02

  No, I'm not.

• 1:22:58Speaker 03

  Or they're saying the operatives within the CIA killed JFK.

• 1:23:00Speaker 02

  It's very difficult to see how there is not a that there that there wasn't knowledge within the CIA of an operation to assassinate.

• 1:23:11Speaker 00

  So you're saying you know that the CIA killed, you're saying you know the CIA killed JFK.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  Keep going with the Peter Thiel shit.

• 1:23:20Speaker 03

  That one's, that one's almost commonplace.

• 1:23:22Speaker 02

  I got that for the rest of life. I do have a substance. I have a, I have a, a X account.

• 1:23:27Chris Williamson?

  Twitter account.

• 1:23:29Speaker 02

  I just came from modern wisdom, and this is what I learned.

• 1:23:32Chris Williamson?

  Aliens, aliens in Area 51. That's.

• 1:23:34Speaker 00

  Yeah. What about the aliens?

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  No, I don't. I'm with Elon on that one. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't think that they're like, I think if there were aliens that I believe that there, there must be. I mean, the, the size and the scope of the universe is beyond anyone's even remote comprehension. And but I don't, I don't think any of them.

• 1:24:03Speaker 00

  Well, what about all those UAPs they're showing all these? What do you think is going on with this? Like, you know, I, so here's a, I don't know if this is even a conspiracy. Trump's in the Epstein files, what, 6,000 plus times?

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  That's not a conspiracy.

• 1:24:15Speaker 00

  That's not, that's real. And then right after that, he releases the UAP. People are saying that's was some sad attempt at a distraction. But regardless, they keep releasing all of this formally classified information regarding whatever this phenomenon is. And that's real. I mean, that is happening.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  I 100% agree with that, that that is all a distraction from what we're, what we know to be a fact, which is that Donald Trump name is in the Epstein files as much or more than any other person's name other than Jeffrey Epstein. Okay? And here's the, the, here's one that I believe. I think that QAnon was a psyop to distract us from Epstein. I think that the, that Andrew Callahan, you guys listen to Andrew Callahan?

• 1:25:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Speaker 02

  He's brilliant. Andrew is literally one of the most brilliant journalists that I've ever come across, just as a, as a person and did really brilliant. And his theory is, is that if you look at QAnon and what they were saying, you know, pizza gate and that there's a, you know, the cabal of, you know, Democrats and things like that. It was to distract you from the actual, very, very real story of Jeffrey, Jeffrey Epstein. And, and what every, not everybody, people in, in, in the major intelligence communities knew was going on or were participating.

• 1:25:47Chris Williamson?

  I was gonna say, because QAnon was way, way, way before the Epstein files, right?

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:53Speaker 03

  Did it ever figure out who that was, like, at all?

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Oh, no, Q, no.

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  Because some, weren't some of the pictures, or some of them actually of like closeups of politicians? Or was it just all bullshit?

• 1:26:03Speaker 02

  Oh, bullshit. Yeah.

• 1:26:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Speaker 03

  I wanted to believe so, but I don't remember.

• 1:26:08Chris Williamson?

  Well, think about that. Son of former president, right? You've been in trouble for smoking crack, gun charges. How does it feel to not be in the Epstein files?

• 1:26:15Speaker 00

  That'd feel good.

• 1:26:16Chris Williamson?

  Does that like give you a kind of moral high ground over the rest of the elite world?

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  You know what even feels better is that, okay, 22 years of my digital footprint, okay? Every single text message, every single email, every single photograph, every single voicemail that was erased or deleted that they were able to pull up. There's not one instance that you will find in which you will see an email from me to anyone else saying, hey, dad. Or hey, so is who works for dad. I need you to do this for me on behalf of a client. I'm getting paid for it.

• 1:26:47Speaker 00

  Did I mention?

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  Not one single time.

• 1:26:49Speaker 00

  Did I mention I'm friends with Peter Thiel? You see.

• 1:26:54Speaker 03

  When it suits him, so.

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  We have that information, actually.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  That is, that's a fair point. What is the whole, what's your take on everyone's fascination with the Burisma stuff?

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  Okay, well, here's.

• 1:27:08Speaker 03

  Is that monster.com?

• 1:27:09Speaker 02

  You, no, yeah.

• 1:27:12Speaker 02

  Ukraine is a, is a, is a viper's den, and it was stupid of me to go on to the board. But when I went on to the board, you gotta remember, it was the, there was a year and a half left in the Obama administration. My brother had just been diagnosed with terminal brain cancer. He was given two years to live. And I get a Devon Archer, this, the guy that I had considered a great friend, who says like, he's got a pardon from Trump and is out like bashing me like every chance that he gets. Comes to me and he says, hey, there's this Ukrainian gas company. They need help because they're, they're, they're the reason that Putin is invading the

• 1:27:55Speaker 02

  Donbass and the eastern part of, of Ukraine. And because they control, they have about 40% of all the natural gas production is, comes from Burisma. And I, and they said they need legal help. And so I am of counsel to Boyshiller Flexner, which is one of the most prominent law firms in the world at the time. And so I bring them in as a client into Boyshiller. I do work for them. I don't actually do it, but the former head of the National Security Agency Administration, who Deputy NSA Director and another person that was Chief of Staff at the State Department, who are partners, I pass it on to them. They do a Kroll report. They do all of this background.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  What? A Kroll report?

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Kroll report, basically doing a background report on the, on the company to see if there's have any major criminal investigations or things like that. And after that is all done, I get approached by one of the board members, who's a former president of Poland, President Krasnitsky. And he says, Hunter, you, thank you very much. This has been really helpful to us, you know, from, I'm a client, a law firm. And he said, but would you consider coming on the board? And the reason is, is because I believe that just simply by being on the board, beyond the fact that you have the capacity. Now, remember, I'm on, I'm serving on like literally 10 other boards. I'm the chairman of the board of the Center for National Policy.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  I'm the chairman of the board of the US UN World Food Program, largest humanitarian organization in the world, serving over 70 million, 72 million people in 80 countries. Okay. Chairman for over five years at this point. I'm chairman of the board of the Truman National Security Project. I'm a professor of, at the Georgetown University School of Foreign Service in the Masters Program. I am, you know, like, I, I got the experience to do it. And I served as the, the vice chairman of the board for over seven years on the largest national passenger rail system in the world, Amtrak.

• 1:29:58Speaker 03

  What do chairmen of the board do? I'm sorry to sound like an idiot. I've never been on a board. What is a board?

• 1:30:03Speaker 02

  You are responsible for making certain that the operations and the reporting of particularly a company, a public company, but often a private company are in order. So it means that you are doing anything from, yeah, taking the financial reports and making certain that the legal operation is reporting to you and making certain that everybody in the C suite and all the responsibilities reports to the board, the independent board. And they are tasked with certain decisions based upon the bylaws of that corporation. And that's what, that's what a board does. And so I joined the board with an enormous amount of experience. And I decided to do it. And I go to the press and I put out a press release saying, I just joined this board.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  And then it's made clear how much I'm getting paid, which is a fucking whole lot of money.

• 1:30:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:53Speaker 02

  And you know what gives me that ability to do is it gives me the ability to not be on the road eight days a week. You know, trying to, you know, make a living while my brother is undoubtedly dying. Now, this is not postball. I made this decision. And it was made purely because of that.

• 1:31:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  That's it. That's the truth. That's a 100% truth. Did my dad do anything ever on behalf of Burisma for me? The exact opposite. He fired a prosecutor. His name is Shokin. And Shokin is known as the diamond prosecutor because he was in the pocket of all of the oligarchs, including the guy that owned Burisma. And he was thwarting any investigation into these organizations. And the entire world community comes and they say, to Ukraine, through the mouthpiece of my father. They say, if you don't fire him, the European Union, the UK, the, the World Trade Organization, the World Bank.

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  They say, if, if you don't fire Shokin, we are not, we're, we're no longer going to be continued to provide Ukraine with aid. And my dad delivers the message and Shokin is fired.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  That's the story. It gets completely turned around. And by the way, two thirds of the time that I'm on the board, my dad is neither president nor vice president. Doesn't have any control over, over anything. But was it smart? Fucking obviously not. I mean, like, I'm still sitting here 10 years later, 11 years later, answering questions about it.

• 1:32:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. And what was the problem? Really? People assume that it was like, well, by the way, some strategic position or like,

• 1:32:40Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's so bribery. It becomes bribery. Okay? And here's the thing. A guy named Alexander Smirnoff introduces into the bloodstream of the FBI as an informant that I took a bribe on behalf of my father. For what? I don't know exactly what we're doing for, for this company, for Ukraine or whatever. Well, it turns out that Alexander Smirnoff is a Russian agent and he's serving six years in prison right now. Because they go back and they look at his story and his story is completely fabricated. And how do they know it's completely fabricated? Because they have me under investigation for, for the past seven years. And so when he comes in and he says, I have tapes of Hunter Biden in Kiev,

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  talking about taking money with these people and here, like, you know, and I can provide the tapes. They say, what are the dates? I've never been to Kiev. Justice Department knows I've never been to Kiev. So they ask him to explain like, well, what are you talking about? And he goes, no, no, absolutely. Here's the thing. And they go back and they look at what he said like three years ago. And they realize it was an entire Russian op and it was being run by a guy named Andrei Derkach and a guy named Telesenko and a guy named Dmitry Firtash, who have all been either sanctioned or criminally prosecuted, not by the Biden administration, by the Trump administration for being Russian agents.

• 1:33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  And it all came through them. And that becomes the bribery thing. And then you have a guy named Gal Luft, who comes along right at the time when I'm about to sign my plea deal. And Gal Luft says, from hiding somewhere, that, that he knows that I'm guilty of bribery also. And, you know, he, he, he wrote, well, it turns out that Gal Luft, after he makes those comments, that he is under indictment, not by the United States of America, he is now, for being an arms trafficker and a Israeli agent that had been

• 1:34:40Speaker 02

  breaking the sanctions as it relates to the Iranian money with Chinese, Chinese oil. And he's a fugitive from justice that skipped bail basically in Cyprus where he got arrested and is supposedly living in Tel Aviv.

• 1:34:51Chris Williamson?

  Fucking spider web gets really unwieldy, doesn't it?

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  And people's eyes glaze over when they talk about it. But that's,

• 1:34:58Speaker 00

  I mean, you have crazy problems, like your life problems are the worst. Crazy is problems, some.

• 1:35:04Chris Williamson?

  The last 15 years have really fucking sucked.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  Well, here's the other side of it. You know what? I fuck, I, I can't say that. It's been, I literally, I'm, I'm, I am, I, I am more like absolutely certain that I'm not perfect, but I'm more absolutely certain of who I am. And happier every day when I wake up, I wake up at five o'clock in the, in the morning every day and I can't wait for the day.

• 1:35:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  Now, sometimes like, it's like, you know, like normal life, like, oh shit, I gotta deal with this or that. But the truth of the matter is, is that I get up at five o'clock and there's not this fucking weight of secrets like hanging on my back. Like, I'm gonna come talk to you. You know, I used to, I would, I would lose it to have to come and know that there's cameras and talk to four, three strangers and come into a room and like, feel like I have to perform. And I was trying to think of it and explain to somebody why I don't feel that way, other than just the mere practice. Okay? I've thought about it. It's, you know what? It's nothing's an act. I don't have to go and be somebody that I'm not. I don't have to like worry whether you're going to ask me

• 1:36:14Speaker 02

  about the hookers in the, you know, why I take pictures of myself when I was whacked out on crack in a motel room as much as I do. I don't have to worry about you saying like, well, tell me about the Ukraine thing. I don't have, like, I don't, I don't have to be anybody but me. And in anybody's life, what a fucking gift.

• 1:36:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is nice.

• 1:36:34Speaker 02

  That's cool.

• 1:36:34Speaker 03

  Really.

• 1:36:36Speaker 02

  By the way, and not just to the public, to the people that I love. Most importantly.

• 1:36:41Chris Williamson?

  How much of the challenge or the discomfort of addiction and that life is what's going on and how much of it is the shame and the secrecy and the lying? Like, because physiologically shit's happening to you and you're, you're kind of in it. But so much of it's got to be the story that you tell yourself and the shame and the lying and the guilt and the judgment and the secrets.

• 1:37:11Speaker 02

  90% of it in retrospect is that.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  10% of it's the, the physiological piece of it, which is real. But it's, it's solvable. I mean, all you have to do is, if, if it was purely physiological, all you'd have to do is just kidnap people. Hold them for three days in a cell. I mean, literally.

• 1:37:32Speaker 00

  Finger legs.

• 1:37:34Chris Williamson?

  That's why the tattoos.

• 1:37:38Speaker 03

  There is, I, I, there was something.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  I loved it. I love.

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  My family.

• 1:37:47Speaker 03

  You can't have a nice memory, you can't have anything. That is the thing you said way, way back though, it's like, because the internet is pretty wild. The internet is, you know, you have a bunch of strangers, just yeah, commenting on all this stuff. And there is something about having a kid or just family or friends where you have, there's like a point where you have to almost be like, all right, like, I'm going to have to put my eggs in the basket of like family in my real life and really tune this stuff out. Cause it's like, we all got thrown into this weird TV quasi TV show that like everyone's in and it really messes people up, man. I've seen it rock people.

• 1:38:19Speaker 02

  But also just it's sort of everybody's life. And so everybody who's out there and addicts realize this is this. Is it like, yeah, me having to, to get honest with strangers is not normal. Do you know what I mean? Like when it becomes like a global thing, like I was the number three most spoken about person on Fox News for a four year period of time straight. The only two people that were talked about me more or talked about more were my dad and Donald Trump.

• 1:38:45Chris Williamson?

  Did you say?

• 1:38:45Speaker 02

  Number three.

• 1:38:46Chris Williamson?

  1.5 articles a day on the New York Post.

• 1:38:50Speaker 02

  Over a year and a half. Yeah. And the Daily Mail too. Same. So.

• 1:38:53Chris Williamson?

  That's gotta get old.

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  My point, oh my God. Well, by the way, so old.

• 1:38:57Chris Williamson?

  Such an interesting guy.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  So old, so ubiquitous, did you just turn it off?

• 1:39:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:39:03Speaker 00

  How do you?

• 1:39:03Speaker 02

  Wait, wait. So, no, what I was gonna say about that is, is that getting honest with it, it's like, that becomes background noise. The real true gift is, is the people that you care about. Getting honest with your partner. Now, my now wife, which I didn't ever have to have, I didn't ever have to live and lie with her. Or have to, you know what I mean? Like you never have to. But my mom and my dad and always thinking, holy shit, if they only knew. Well, now they know.

• 1:39:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:39:35Speaker 02

  Do you know what? You know what I found out?

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  They still love me. It's not like they were proud of me, but you know what? They still love me. My daughters still love me. I'm, and adore me. I'm positive. You know, my, my, and like, like, wow. Like when you get that, it's like, okay, you know what I'm gonna do this morning? I'm gonna try to do the next right thing.

• 1:39:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:00Speaker 02

  I'm gonna try to not do that.

• 1:40:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, that's, that's, I found that too with like, it's, it's a different thing, but I used to get panic attacks all the time and I would, I would start getting one and be like, fuck, and I wouldn't tell anybody. I would just be like, fuck, fuck. And you just, it's worse and worse. The minute you just like tell one person like, I'm having a fucking panic attack. Like 90% of it goes away. They're like, dude, take a breath and you're like, yeah, you're right.

• 1:40:20Speaker 02

  That's a perfect analogy.

• 1:40:21Speaker 03

  It really is. It's like a, just a slow grade panic attack all the time. Like, fuck, you're seeing my phone. It's like, yeah, it's a bad feeling.

• 1:40:28Speaker 02

  But every time you're going through it, the last thing you think is that I want to do that.

• 1:40:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:34Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:40:35Speaker 02

  But for me, it's like, done. They did it for me. It wasn't any courage on my part. You know what I mean? It wasn't any therapy session on my part.

• 1:40:44Speaker 00

  You're liberated.

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  Liberated. That's unleashed.

• 1:40:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:48Speaker 03

  What was your question, sir?

• 1:40:49Speaker 00

  You answered it. No, I was just gonna, I just imagine,

• 1:40:54Speaker 00

  you know, you have five kids, you know, like that is amazing. And like, having to like, and, and that's, I think is what grounds me and most people is like, that's all that, all you care about is what your kids and your family think about you ultimately. Who gives a fuck what the internet thinks? But how do you, you know, how do you convey this to your children? They're going to be at their friend's house. Fox News is going to come on. Hannity's veins are pulsing as he talks about you and they have to see that, you know, that's gotta be hard to, for them and for you to sort of, how do you?

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  Two instances of, one is this, is that you, you, just by, just by staying clean sober, man. Just by not picking up, you know, that's, that's the number one way. Just showing up. Showing up with a clear head. You know, or as clear as head can get, not on substances.

• 1:41:45Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:41:45Speaker 02

  Is like, being true to that.

• 1:41:50Speaker 02

  You're 90% of the way there because then everything else is life. I like, I haven't figured it out. I'm figured out, you know, like I make mistakes as a father and, and a husband and a son and a, and a nephew.

• 1:42:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:05Speaker 02

  You know, all the time. I'm selfish. Like, you know what? Like, I, I think about like, somebody asked me a question about my dad's health the other day. And I was shocked by the like response of people like, oh my God, Hunter Biden, like some revelation about, you know, something. My dad has metastatic bone cancer, which means it started off as prostate cancer. And it escaped the area of the prostate and metastasized into his bones.

• 1:42:31Speaker 00

  So killed my mom.

• 1:42:33Speaker 02

  He's not any different from when he had that, when I, when I, uh, when, when that diagnosis was made public to today. He's tough as shit. Metastatic bone cancer and bone cancer can be painful at times. Doesn't mean the treatment's not working. It doesn't mean that radiation and chemotherapy that he went through and the, you know, the hormone therapy can't keep it at bay. And all those kinds of things. But I was shocked at how people like, I think the other part that I said, which is this, it's really fucking hard as a son.

• 1:43:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  It's awful, but like, I don't just love my dad. I adore him. He's the center of our family, not in a way because he's president of the United States. But the fact is, is that like, he is the center of our family because we all rely on him. His wisdom, his affection, his, um, uh, his presence. Because he even was president, even the vice president, his whole career. My dad was never not present for me, my brother, my sister. And I just hope that, so how do I do it? Just showing up, man. Just showing up and showing up, you know, not smoking crack helps.

• 1:43:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:43:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, true.

• 1:43:53Chris Williamson?

  It's a good, yeah.

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 1:43:55Chris Williamson?

  If you could, if you could, uh, war game out the next two and a half years for the Democratic Party, what would you pick?

• 1:44:02Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:44:06Speaker 02

  Pure authenticity. Here's my thing. I don't care if you're a democratic socialist. I don't care if you're James Tellerico and you're, you know, straight down the line in your middle of the road. I don't care if you're going to run away from Joe Biden's accomplishments or you're going to run, you know, directly towards Joe Biden's accomplishments. I don't care if you think that AOC, you know, is the best thing since sliced bread. Or you think that, you know, Joe Manchin is the, you know, best thing. If you tell me that what you're going to do is that you are going to recognize that the, that a constitutional republic in which we live is worth saving. Then I'm, I'll vote for you. I don't even give a shit if you're Republican at this point.

• 1:44:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:44:45Speaker 02

  If you're opposed.

• 1:44:47Chris Williamson?

  Put some, put some chips down on the table. Who do you think would be good?

• 1:44:50Speaker 02

  Oh, I really, I'm not, I'm not avoiding the, the question. I think that somebody's going to emerge like every single time within the Democratic Party with a vision and a voice that is going to capture the imagination. But I'm telling you, in this environment, it has to do with one thing. It has to do with whether or not you are being actually authentic. If you're being honest with people. People can smell it from a mile away. And the reason they can is because we've lived through 10 years of the age of Trump. In which we, we very much understandably confused authenticity with audacity. Trump would say things that nobody would say. And people would go, well, that's authentic. And then he wouldn't do them.

• 1:45:35Speaker 02

  He says he's not going to ever go to war in the Middle East and you'd have to be a goddamn evil, you know, and idiot to ever, you know, do it. And he does. He says that he's going to end the war with Ukraine on day one. And people go, now that's what we want in the president. And everybody with a brain knew that there was no way that he was going to end the war with Ukraine on day one. And here we are. He said that he's going to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I mean, I could go through the list and I start to sound like a politician. He says that he's six foot three and he weighs 225 pounds and he has a, and he shot 71, the, the, the championship, you know, again. Everybody knows he's lying. That's audacity. People want somebody with all of their flaws to be honest with them about the challenges.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  And how they're going to address them. And by the way, like all these people, like, I don't know what you guys think about Mondani, but all I know is this. He said he was going to open up grocery stores, the, uh, you know, uh, co-op grocery stores in the five boroughs. And he did it. He said that he was going to bring down the, uh, rent, uh, prices and he's doing it. He said that he was going to balance the budget and he did it in six months. He said, now, all of the other stuff is like, what does he think about Gaza? I don't give a fuck what the mayor of fucking New York thinks about Gaza. What does he think about Bibi Netanyahu? Doesn't matter to me if I live in New York City and I'm 28 years old and I just got married and about to have a kid.

• 1:47:00Chris Williamson?

  Indicative of something a little bit deeper than just sort of where he's at in the local geography though? Do people not care about the deeper principles of the people that are supposed to be leading them?

• 1:47:11Speaker 02

  Oh, I, I, I, maybe, maybe not. But I do know this is that all politics is local. My, uh, Zohar Mondani works in, in, in, in the largest immigrant melting pot in the, in, in, of human history, which is called New York City. He works there. You know what? James Tellerico, who is an evangelical Christian and a Democrat and talks about the red letter, uh, words of Christ in every speech that he makes. Is the right guy to be running in, in Texas. Just like, I think that in a state like Michigan, with an incredibly vibrant and old and, and, uh, important Muslim community. Is that Abdul Asayad is, uh, Dr. Abdul Asayad is, is, is a great candidate for there.

• 1:47:53Speaker 02

  You may want to be able to call him a communist because he believes in, uh, in universal healthcare. I don't know anybody. I don't never talked to anybody that doesn't think that it's a right, that people should have the right to access healthcare without going bankrupt.

• 1:48:10Speaker 00

  I just think.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  I don't know anybody.

• 1:48:12Speaker 00

  I, I feel like it's, it's a, I think people have become blackpilled. I, I, I don't think it's like.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  Explain to me black pill, red pill. People say that to me and I'm not joking. Well, like, I'm like, what, what's, what's once the black pill?

• 1:48:24Speaker 00

  The black pill is, is essentially nihilism.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  Okay, yes, okay, yes.

• 1:48:28Speaker 00

  So like, so essentially like.

• 1:48:29Speaker 02

  I totally agree with that.

• 1:48:30Speaker 00

  And, and so the general sense is, why, why do we keep having these dudes? Why do we have these presidents? Why do we, why are we doing this thing where we're connecting to this person or that person? Who says this or that? And Mondami, I, I watch, I see what the algorithm's pumping out.

• 1:48:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:49Speaker 00

  And how could you not like him? He's putting water fountains up in Central Park and all these good things. But then you see that like, that's cool. But then you think, I'm not getting fooled again. I'm not going to let these people hypnotize me anymore. Inevitably, they'll do the water fountains or the whatever for a little bit. And then before you know it, they're blowing up kids. Matter of time before there's a reason, they have some important reason.

• 1:49:11Speaker 02

  You are one dark motherfucker.

• 1:49:14Speaker 00

  It's true.

• 1:49:14Speaker 03

  No, I mean, dude, that's, that's the thing too, where.

• 1:49:18Speaker 02

  You are, Mondani's blowing up.

• 1:49:19Speaker 00

  Well, not yet. Not yet, but you know what I'm saying? Like inevitably.

• 1:49:23Speaker 03

  It's like the hero show. And then it's just like, time goes on and you're like, what the fuck? I mean, for me, the, the political stuff is like, you know, like, I think we're, hopefully we're going to get to a point. Cause we have been in like the whole Trump, which also there is the Trump's like, you know, like, you know, negative half, which is like the liberal media constantly obsessed with them. It's like a feedback loop is my point. And I, I do, I hope we'll get out of the thing of like mutual demonization where it's like, you know, this person's a liberal. I can't even look at them and this person's a good sir. I, I went to graduate school in Bryn Mawr.

• 1:49:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:49:55Speaker 03

  Dude, if you disagree with these people, they would cry, the staff would freak out and they were just like hardcore liberals.

• 1:50:00Speaker 02

  He went to Bryn Mawr.

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did. Talk about secrets.

• 1:50:06Speaker 03

  But my whole point is like, I, I just really hope, that's why I kind of eye roll when you're talking about Christo fascism or it's like, dude, I, I just really hope we can all eventually learn how to be like, okay. You maybe, maybe I think some of your ideas are a little weird or wacky because I didn't grow up like that and vice versa. But the whole emotional charge behind it, I, I just really want. I, I completely, I think younger kids kind of laugh and eye roll when they hear like people.

• 1:50:29Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. I've gone around talking and the difference between the people that are like 18 to 30 year olds and anything that I talk about is they get it in ways that if you're, if you're my age or over the age of 40 or 45. And you get caught in all of these conversations, exactly what Matt said. And I'm not saying to you is that like, oh, it's all about Christo fascism. What I'm saying is one of the underlying things I do believe, you want to know what the conspiracies that I believe in? I believe that rich people eat at the same places, go to the same clubs, have the same interests. And I'm talking about the point zero one percent. And they pull the same strings and they have an inordinate amount of influence on government.

• 1:51:09Speaker 02

  And if we really ever want to change things, the thing that we have to do is figure out a way, and I don't know the way, I don't have the answer of getting money out of politics.

• 1:51:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:17Speaker 02

  The same money that's been there forever. And they have a, like, they had that. But you're absolutely right. So you know how much shit that I get for going to talk to Candace Owens? Have you ever met Candace?

• 1:51:27Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 1:51:28Speaker 02

  She is, I mean, I, you won't meet someone who's personally nicer than Candace. Now, that doesn't mean that the things that she says I agree with, or that I, you know, that I think that we did land on the moon. I say this to Candace every time. Candace, we did, we promise you we're living on the moon. But my point is.

• 1:51:46Chris Williamson?

  Pretty soon that we're going to just go back there and be able to be like, hey, there's the fucking flag or whatever.

• 1:51:51Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:51:51Speaker 00

  Oh, but also you just lost me, man.

• 1:51:55Speaker 00

  Like I was on board till you said we landed on the moon.

• 1:51:58Chris Williamson?

  You don't think we went to the moon?

• 1:51:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm so sorry to ask.

• 1:52:00Chris Williamson?

  This is where I want to go. Yes. Hour three. Let's fucking go to.

• 1:52:04Speaker 00

  Didn't we just say what conspiracy theories do you believe in?

• 1:52:06Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:52:09Chris Williamson?

  Let's fucking assess it. Moon landing footage, please.

• 1:52:11Speaker 00

  No, I'm not doing that.

• 1:52:12Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yes. Here we are. Candace. Come on Candace, come on down.

• 1:52:16Speaker 00

  No, I feel terrible. I don't want to derail what was he was doing because I do like where you're going with it. I feel like I just, I derailed something quite beautiful that you're saying.

• 1:52:24Chris Williamson?

  So here's my question, like you get the money. Everyone, everyone agrees, money out of politics, da, da, da, da, da. But like, how does that trickle down to making the incentives of modern media, social media, using in-group, out-group tribalism as an effective strategy to gain political office? How does getting the money out of media stop the dynamics and the incentives of tribalism? That to me feels locked in.

• 1:52:47Speaker 02

  You mean money out of government? Okay, not out of media, but money out of government.

• 1:52:51Chris Williamson?

  But I.

• 1:52:52Speaker 02

  Here's, here's one way.

• 1:52:53Chris Williamson?

  The incentives are still going to be there on X to say this is.

• 1:52:55Speaker 02

  No, but here's the thing. You know what? You can curb those incentives. I mean, the incentive to, to run roughshod over the, the, the health and wellbeing of the American people. And the way that you do that is, for instance, you, um, just get, or you end, um, uh, section two thirty, the, the immunity clause that for all social media and technology, uh, uh, internet companies. No, section two thirty basically says that they are not responsible for their content or the effect, the impact of their content. So when Meta goes out and they know that, uh, their algorithm specifically is leading to an exponential increase in suicides among teenage girls in the United States of America. And an exponential, an additional exponential increase in the number of girls that are harming themselves

• 1:53:39Speaker 02

  in, uh, it, to the degree that they're going to hospital emergency rooms because of it, because of their algorithms. Their internal studies show documentation. A whistleblower brings up all of the paperwork to, and all of the, the data that Meta has, that at that point, I think, uh, twenty twenty two is still Facebook, has collected internally. You know what they did? Nothing. No one did a thing. So you have to change the law. And the reason that the law is not being changed is because it's not just Republicans, it's Democrats. It's the, uh, people from, uh, the, you know, in, in support of the, of the freedom of speech

• 1:54:20Speaker 02

  of Silicon Valley or in support, you know how much money they pay for that freedom of speech?

• 1:54:25Speaker 00

  This is a problem. I, I think you're conflating two things. Like, you're right. Like, oh my God, it's terrifying. They studied B F Skinner, you know, they behaviorism, they, they've created a drug, an addictive drug, and they know how to like hack the human nervous system in a way that is making kids completely glued to this and is like, and adults to people going nuts. It's creating, um, psychic contagions, cultural contagions and such. And, but the moment that you start creating laws where you hold them liable, then suddenly somebody posts something, right? Then you do limit freedom of speech, which is the most beautiful thing about these things. And I, that's the problem is the two are, are, are separate issues.

• 1:55:09Speaker 00

  And, and inevitably what happens is this, this insane machine that sometimes is misinformation, sometimes the truth, sometimes in between, it, it will, you'll nerf it. And then the next thing you know, it's like in Canada or something like, you know, when if you want a potion in Canada, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you have to like, don't you have to have some kind of license? Like you can get your internet taken away in Canada.

• 1:55:33Chris Williamson?

  UK is just about to ask for people to upload their IDs before they can have social media.

• 1:55:37Speaker 02

  So here's the thing is I don't disagree with anything that you just said. But you know what? Is that I think that we have to have this as an open discussion that's not incredibly infected by a, uh, a, a voice that has far more, um, uh, power than yours or mine as a voter. And, and so what I'm saying is, is that I think there's a way to get there. But I know there's no way to get there when I'm working against, you know, a couple hundred, you know, billion dollars in, that, that are being paid through, you know, every which way that you can possibly imagine, not just the Republicans, the Democrats just as much.

• 1:56:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  I mean, something's got to give.

• 1:56:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:56:20Speaker 02

  Something's got to give.

• 1:56:22Chris Williamson?

  You might know more about the, yeah, you, you genuinely might be right and know more about it than I do. But I just, I wouldn't bet against the human incentive toward tribalism online. And as soon as you create a town square, even if you start to restrict, you, section two thirty gets repealed or you get, gets turned off and you're no longer a utility pipeline. You're now actually culpable for what it is that's coming through. But if, if that was the case.

• 1:56:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:47Chris Williamson?

  I get the sense that people just have these new rules and then they start to play with it. Like a, an MMA fight that says, okay, no groin kicks. It's okay. Well, I'll find a different way to achieve the same outcome, doing something.

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  Maybe, but you know what?

• 1:56:59Chris Williamson?

  Laying a few road bumps down.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  You get rid of the groin kicks. And so let's get, use a, a perfect analogy. Perfect analogy is the automobile industry. Okay. So you know what? Should we be able to hold cars liable that do not provide a safe product for the driver and for the consumer? We do, right? We apply these as it relates to, um, uh, liability to every single other industry. If you put out a product that is known, like if I put out a bowl of cereal and the bowl of cereal absolutely is, is killing, uh, it's a sugary cereal, cereal. And in the immediate, it is a, it has a, a poison in it also.

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  If you get the one lucky charm, it's going to kill 10% of the kids that eat it. You know what? We have laws against that. We have liability. And so not only would it be necessarily a, a legal to do that, but really what it would be is me as the consumer, if my child was killed because of the product that you created, with the knowledge that that product has a better than even chance of creating the situation which ends up in their death, that I get to sue you for doing that. So for instance, chat G P T. Chat G P T right now, have you heard the stories of how it is speaking to people? And like, there was this one woman and I think, I forget the exact, so don't hold me to it.

• 1:58:26Speaker 02

  She, uh, it, it led her to believe that she was this messing on a figure and it literally encouraged her to take her life. It said, you should do it. It would be the gift to the world if you take, so because they have all the conversations with it. You know what? Should chat P T, G P T be held liable for that? It, it's product. It's a technology. That technology took a vulnerable person and convinced that vulnerable person that the best course of action that they could do was take a gun and shoot themselves in the head. It told them to do it.

• 1:59:02Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It almost seems like an easy fix.

• 1:59:04Speaker 00

  For that. Well, yeah, but I don't think freedom of speech applies to AI.

• 1:59:08Speaker 02

  See, I'm not talking about the freedom of speech. So should Meta be able to have an algorithm that they are able to turn up or down, which they choose to turn up and which they know through their own studies is leading to the, a exponential increase in suicide among girls between the ages of thirteen and seventeen.

• 1:59:26Speaker 00

  You're saying more like some kind of, some kind of regulation for the algorithm.

• 1:59:31Speaker 02

  That's two thirty. It's consumer safety. If you create a product that is unsafe, you are, are, you are liable to the consumer if they are harmed by it.

• 1:59:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I agree with that. I think you should do that.

• 1:59:43Speaker 02

  Saying.

• 1:59:44Speaker 03

  Here's the rub. Here's, here's the rub though. I think you a hundred percent should do that. The chat G P T stuff, it's like, it does seem like a almost easy fix. Like, hey, if anyone ever says they're going to kill themselves, just code in, don't do that. You know what I mean? Like, does that seems like you could.

• 1:59:57Speaker 00

  It does do that.

• 1:59:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, you, you would think.

• 1:59:59Speaker 02

  You would think.

• 2:00:00Speaker 03

  But, um, but the, the problem is, is then you get into, but then it goes into a gray area of like what's safe and what's unsafe. That was like the COVID thing. If you had like any sort of dissenting viewpoint, it'd be like, this is unsafe. And then you could, people who might have a political agenda.

• 2:00:12Chris Williamson?

  The editorializing.

• 2:00:13Speaker 03

  And then go, that's unsafe. Therefore block.

• 2:00:15Speaker 02

  I'm talking about consumer safety. That's what I'm talking about.

• 2:00:17Speaker 03

  I, I hundred percent.

• 2:00:18Speaker 02

  I'm not talking about what the argument that's going on in the UK right now, which I think is over the top and ridiculous in terms, I mean, not the argument, the, the way in which the UK is dealing with it. I think that there's, there's real, um, like, I'm going to get killed by everybody on the left for this. But yeah, I think that the, it, it's overkill, what they're doing as it relates to, um, free speech in many instances. I'm not talking about freedom of speech. I'm talking about pure consumer safety.

• 2:00:44Chris Williamson?

  What do you make of the increase in political violence over the last few years? January sixth, Trump, White House Correspondents Dinner.

• 2:00:50Speaker 02

  Okay. So I don't know.

• 2:00:51Chris Williamson?

  Charlie Kirk.

• 2:00:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:52Chris Williamson?

  Charlie Kirk.

• 2:00:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't know. Uh, I, I do know this is that I think that we are experiencing the same level of, of, uh, a political violence that, um, has been present in the United States of America since its inception. I mean, if you look at it, this, we're, we're, we're way below where we were between nineteen sixty eight and nineteen seventy two.

• 2:01:15Speaker 00

  Weather Underground, Martin Luther King, J F K.

• 2:01:18Speaker 02

  Malcolm X. I mean, just go down and down the licks. Stosekley Carmichael. I mean, uh, Huey Newton, the way in which the police responded to all of them. I mean, all like, you go down and you want to talk about political violence. By the way, Ronald Reagan didn't only was, was actually not an attempt, he was actually shot. Not only was he shot, there was at least three attempts on his life in the eight years that he was at, at President of the United States. You go, the political violence that was, uh, that was directed outwards during the Bush, the second Bush administration and the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war, the amount of violence that occurred outside the, uh, outside the United States to protect us from political violence.

• 2:02:02Speaker 02

  I abhor all of it. I mean, it's just, it's like the, but one of the things about this country is that is like, if like, we're honest with ourselves, we are an incredibly violent society. We are in terms of, we, we have 5% of the world's population. And we represent 25% of the world's incarcerated people. More than China, more than Russia, more than India. 25% of the world's incarcerated people are in the United States of America.

• 2:02:45Speaker 02

  And so like, there's a lot of stuff that we need to reckon with, you know? But, but I'm not like, we're not figuring that out. All I want to figure out right now, one thing. I believe that Donald Trump is truly an existential threat. I'm, I'm here to say this. If you voted for him three times, okay, I'm okay with that. I understand, I can understand why you, why you maybe have gotten there. I don't have any problem with you. Like, I want to go down and sit with, whether it's Joe Rogan, or whether it's Theo, or whether it's Tucker Carlson. I mean, there are people that have said worse things about me than, than not Joe and Theo, but like others, or about my dad.

• 2:03:26Speaker 02

  But like, if you're on board with me, that what this motherfucker's doing right now is pure insanity. It cannot be good for the future of this country and for, for our, our position in the world, then I'm on board with you. I mean, literally, I mean, I don't agree with a single thing that Marjorie Taylor Greene has ever done in her politics, other than this. She woke up to the fact that Donald Trump is a complete and utter fraud.

• 2:03:53Speaker 00

  It's just the fucking wars, man. It's like every president, I don't know what wars your dad conducted, I'm sure.

• 2:04:00Speaker 02

  He didn't, he got out of every single war. We were the first president, first president in 40 years, not to be, have a, you know, when he got killed for pulling out of Afghanistan.

• 2:04:10Speaker 00

  When, but other people got killed when we were pulling Afghanistan too.

• 2:04:13Speaker 02

  Well, we lost 10 soldiers pulling out of Afghanistan, ending a 20 year war.

• 2:04:18Speaker 00

  While he was president, okay, that's great. I don't, listen, I am so bad at politics.

• 2:04:23Speaker 02

  But man, let me just say one thing, for real, this is what is important, is that he did the exact opposite. He, not only that, is that he didn't drop a bomb on a single person in the four years that he was there.

• 2:04:35Speaker 00

  When your dad was president, there weren't any civilians casualties?

• 2:04:38Speaker 02

  Well, there was an enormous amount of civilian casualties that were in Gaza by virtue of what the Israelis were doing, but not by virtue of the actual us engaging in, in, in violence against another nation's.

• 2:04:51Speaker 00

  You're saying like, when your dad was president, there weren't civilian casualties in Afghanistan or around the world?

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Not because of us, we pulled out every troop, every single troop that was in Afghanistan.

• 2:05:00Speaker 00

  He did what he could do.

• 2:05:00Speaker 02

  After 20 years was pulled out.

• 2:05:02Speaker 00

  I guess the broader point I'm trying to make, and sorry if I said your dad blew up a bunch of kids, like some kind of hippie. And I don't know that, but I, he probably did, no offense. No, he didn't.

• 2:05:15Chris Williamson?

  No offense.

• 2:05:16Speaker 04

  By the way, what, literally, like, oh, oh, okay.

• 2:05:20Speaker 03

  What, what years?

• 2:05:21Speaker 04

  What was it, what was my response at?

• 2:05:23Speaker 00

  Oh, all right, yeah.

• 2:05:25Speaker 03

  What, what year was this again? Was that the, what was it, the Ukraine? When did Ukraine start?

• 2:05:29Speaker 02

  Ukraine started in 2021, when like, when my dad was president. But again, what I'm saying is, is that we didn't put any boots on the ground in Ukraine.

• 2:05:36Speaker 00

  The thing that eats me alive is you've got all, like, we've been at war for what, 93% of our history? And you look at.

• 2:05:42Speaker 02

  The first time the United States was not at war was under the administration of Joe Biden, in which he got murdered by everybody for, politically, for pulling out of a war that we'd been in 20, for over 20.

• 2:05:54Speaker 00

  It's a low bar if you're at war for 93, but your dad, okay, listen, listen. All, all I'm saying is.

• 2:06:00Speaker 03

  He never gets credit for that either.

• 2:06:01Speaker 00

  That's a good thing he did. And, but for me, what eats me alive is that, like, those bombs, whether, whatever it may be, all those bombs, how much they cost, right? And then you hear, kids, kids are in school lunch debt? What the fuck is that? There's kids who like, who can't get healthy school lunches. There's the teachers who aren't getting paid shit, you know? And you look at how much each of those fucking bombs cost. You want to, you know, whether it's tax the rich or tax the oligarchs, why don't we stop spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on bombs that are blowing up countries for completely enigmatic, mysterious reasons? Most people don't understand.

• 2:06:46Speaker 00

  And it used, I remember when we, right when we were about to bomb Iraq. I remember, man, I was in LA, I was at the marches, dude, everyone's marching, everyone's so fucking furious. What are we doing? And then gradually, it seems like the national reaction to this insane violence that we conduct year after year after year. It's like we're, we're, we're not pushing back anymore. We're just letting it happen. 184 Iranian schoolgirls blown up. That's, can you ima?

• 2:07:18Speaker 02

  By the way, that was two Tomahawk missiles.

• 2:07:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:07:21Speaker 02

  Not one, two.

• 2:07:22Speaker 03

  That's, that's when the, you know, kind of started to become untethered, when people would be like, well, it is a military conflict and things you, it's like, things happen. It's like.

• 2:07:30Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:07:31Speaker 03

  Come on, man.

• 2:07:31Speaker 00

  No. You can't say that.

• 2:07:33Speaker 03

  Things happen.

• 2:07:34Speaker 00

  You can't say that anymore. And, and so that's what the, that's where.

• 2:07:37Speaker 03

  Also, also, I mean, I don't know, I don't plan the wars, obviously, but it's like.

• 2:07:42Speaker 00

  It's fun.

• 2:07:42Chris Williamson?

  Sounds kind of like. Thanks for clarifying that.

• 2:07:44Speaker 03

  Well, it was, it's easy to armchair a quarterback, but it's like, that sounds almost like the, you know, the conspiracy guy in me is like, you sure you're not terrorizing them?

• 2:07:51Chris Williamson?

  Like gratuitous, unnecessary.

• 2:07:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, because you're, you're dealing with people who, you know, literally kill people professionally. And it's like, I, I have a hard time believing there's a lot of people who can kind of delineate clearly.

• 2:08:01Chris Williamson?

  I get a question.

• 2:08:01Speaker 03

  When billions of dollars are at stake, not to be like, fuck, make it up.

• 2:08:04Speaker 02

  Precision with which we are able to take out a single person as the, which is the relative size of a grain of sand on, on a map, that we, that, that that was a mistake when we were making surgical strikes.

• 2:08:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:22Speaker 02

  It's really hard for me to believe too.

• 2:08:24Chris Williamson?

  Have you ever seen when they retrofit Samurai blades to a Tomahawk? Have you seen this?

• 2:08:28Speaker 00

  No.

• 2:08:28Chris Williamson?

  Fucking awesome. You want to talk about precision? So they're able to, they're able, I think it's a Hellfire missile, maybe they launch it from the very beginning and then they use fins to guide it from there. But there's no ordinance in it. This thing is so fucking accurate that if you've got a bad guy in a car, you need to know what seat he sat in.

• 2:08:47Speaker 03

  I've heard of this.

• 2:08:48Chris Williamson?

  Because this will go through the roof and thing.

• 2:08:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:51Chris Williamson?

  These blades come out and there was a dude who they'd found like quite high up, I think maybe something to do with 9/11. And this guy, every morning would go and have his coffee and they sent two in the air at the same time. So like, one, two, there's no explosion. This guy just gets turned into dust.

• 2:09:09Speaker 00

  Honey, the reason we don't have your insulin is because we had to pay for sword bombs.

• 2:09:16Chris Williamson?

  That was one guy that was real, a real bad guy. That's different to blowing up a school or two.

• 2:09:20Speaker 02

  By the way, you know what though? Is that in the past, for, for so many decades now, the argument, the, the hippie argument that you're making is kind of like, oh, well, what are you talking about? We need to, are you fucking kidding me? You know, we have a trillion dollar budget for, for now, what is called the Department of War. We're not even defending ourselves now. We're talking about killing people rather than defending ourselves.

• 2:09:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:09:48Speaker 02

  It's outrageous. It's outrageous in a country in which we're the only industrialized nation in the entire world that does not have a, a universal access to healthcare.

• 2:10:01Speaker 00

  I'm going for you, man. Excuse me, I gotta pee.

• 2:10:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, you go first.

• 2:10:05Speaker 03

  I honestly, I have a theory that it's hard to kind of keep the army going. If you have universal healthcare and, you know.

• 2:10:12Chris Williamson?

  Why is that?

• 2:10:12Speaker 03

  Free college, because it's, that's like kind of the, that's kind of the dangle to get people in the army. Because if you give everyone healthcare and everybody college.

• 2:10:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, we'll just strip people then.

• 2:10:23Speaker 03

  Here's something that bugs me out and I always try to wrap my head around it. I remember, so I think I was graduating college around like Occupy Wall Street time.

• 2:10:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:30Speaker 03

  I think they polled, polled people and I think it was something like, maybe 20% of the people believed anything the government said. It was, everyone had this like really apathetic attitude towards like, yeah, I don't believe anything they say. And then, you know, so that was 2009. By 2020, not only did people, you know, wholeheartedly believe the government, but all of a sudden they like, wouldn't talk to their aunts and uncles because they voted one way or the other. People, they got like somehow turned this like, people didn't really care when I graduated college, at least the people I knew. And, you know, I guess abroad, and all of a sudden some dial got turned where it's like, now like families are falling apart over politics. And it just was like, I always wonder like, how exactly did that happen?

• 2:11:09Speaker 02

  I don't know. I think it's all, I agree with you 100%.

• 2:11:12Speaker 03

  It was very quick.

• 2:11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. I, I, I say to everybody and then sometimes like, I go home and I'm like, do I really believe that? Is the thing that I say is, is that we're not nearly as divided as we're being told to be.

• 2:11:27Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 2:11:28Speaker 02

  Because I really believe that. But then I go home and I do the same thing that everybody else does. I leave here, I get in the Uber to go to the airport and I'll open up my phone and I'll go through my For You page. And I'll be like, fuck, like fuck.

• 2:11:44Chris Williamson?

  We're broken.

• 2:11:44Speaker 02

  Fuck, we're broken. And like, those mother, god damn it, those mother, god damn it, those motherfuckers. I mean, I even find it in this, is that like, I want to, I want on X and I went on Instagram. It was like a new thing to me. And then, you know, the main thing I wanted to do was Substack, because that's where I write and then doing all the things.

• 2:12:01Chris Williamson?

  Substack growth.

• 2:12:01Speaker 02

  And also I can make a little bit of money, pay my bills.

• 2:12:04Speaker 03

  For sure.

• 2:12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, but I went on X and Instagram.

• 2:12:08Speaker 02

  X is like a crapshoot, you know, depending on what it is, it's like, I mean, it is the meanest.

• 2:12:14Speaker 03

  X is wild.

• 2:12:16Speaker 02

  It's like insane, okay? And just like, it's, and like, you, crackhead, pedophile, you know, the, I mean, like the, the shit, I mean.

• 2:12:25Chris Williamson?

  It's fucking unhinged.

• 2:12:27Speaker 02

  On Instagram. It will be like, oh my God, that was so beautiful. Thank you. You've helped me in my recovery. And I would love to, this is a picture of my cat. It's beautiful. And, and here's me and my husband with our dog. And we love you so much. And like, I'm like, but I gotta go back to X.

• 2:12:48Chris Williamson?

  It's the same.

• 2:12:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. You wanna read.

• 2:12:51Chris Williamson?

  It's the same.

• 2:12:52Speaker 00

  You call me a crackhead, right?

• 2:12:53Chris Williamson?

  Just a different ecosystem, same species.

• 2:12:55Speaker 02

  Same exact post on both, on both sides. And literally, that will be what it is. And my point being is that we are all drawn to the fucking train wreck. We are all drawn to the confrontation. We are all drawn to, and like, and that becomes everything. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, Melissa's like, like it'll be two o'clock in the morning. She'll be like, look at this.

• 2:13:20Chris Williamson?

  Brandishing your X account.

• 2:13:21Speaker 02

  Because in my past life, it would be like, look, like, what was on that phone?

• 2:13:26Speaker 03

  Heart skips a beat.

• 2:13:27Speaker 02

  No, it's like, yeah, here's my phone. You can look at whatever you want, but it's, yeah. But it's like, you know, like kids are, and I mean, it's awful.

• 2:13:34Speaker 03

  I think people are burning out on it. I really do. I think people are burning out on it. And I think it's gonna seem kind of like, you know, if you go from like 2016 to now, it was pretty in vogue in like 2016, 2020 to just be like freaking out on people. And all caps, twit, like tweets, like, and another thing, I think, especially younger people are gonna be like, come on, man. Like, I think there'll be eye roll and that kind of stuff.

• 2:13:56Chris Williamson?

  You joked that we're not quite in the matrix yet, I think. You said we're like, maybe there, but not quite there in the matrix.

• 2:14:03Speaker 02

  There's a conspiracy I believe in, but I gotta.

• 2:14:04Chris Williamson?

  All right. Yeah, we'll save it for when you come back. What would convince you that we've crossed the line fully across into matrix line?

• 2:14:12Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, it's like, I think the way, I guess if you wanted to like, make the connection that we're in the matrix, then you would essentially like have to say like, we, we do sort of live in a simulated reality if we're getting all of our data from our phones, you know? What's happening is you're getting this algorithmic interpretation of reality. And then you're believing that that is reality. And so, do you know what, in that case, if that's what's occupying your mind, it doesn't matter what's going on in the world.

• 2:14:46Chris Williamson?

  You don't need to be plugged in through something in the back of your head.

• 2:14:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't think so at all. I think that the, there's a veil of illusion that's fallen over everything, which is whatever your particular subjective experience is online. I mean, look at the data for how long, how much time we're spending on our phones, generally fixating on things that will, will never see, will never hurt us, will never touch us. And yet that's throwing a shadow over regular life. And so that would be a kind of simulated artificial reality. As far as like simulation theory itself, like what Nick Bostrom writes about and stuff. I think his argument is, you know, there's some kind of mathematical probability that we are not existing.

• 2:15:31Chris Williamson?

  There's far more simulated ones than the one root one that's downstream.

• 2:15:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's some iterative simulation in the sense that this, this isn't reality. It's already some form of matrix, alien technology. And within it, as above, so below, it continues to simulate reality. Yes, yes, yes.

• 2:15:51Chris Williamson?

  Do you know the, the plank length? Have you come across this?

• 2:15:54Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:15:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, so this is, this is pretty cool. So there's a smallest length that you can measure things in the universe. And it's called the plank length. You can't, there's no such thing as dropping it in half. It's the smallest that anything can be. It's like insane, so much smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller than an atom. And one of the arguments for simulation theory is that that's the pixel size.

• 2:16:14Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:16:15Chris Williamson?

  Of the universe.

• 2:16:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:16:16Chris Williamson?

  Or you could have local, like generation that it only appears where you're seeing. We're talking about simulation, simulation hypothesis. But yeah, plank length is the pixel size.

• 2:16:29Speaker 00

  Well, here's the best argument for the simulation hypothesis. If you wanna like really prove you're in a simulation, you don't even have to go to the plank length. You just, you are in a simulation in the sense that phenomena is being interpreted by your senses woven together instantaneously into some kind of reality upon which you are applying all of your subjective experience, all of your bias. And this thing that you are experiencing is going to be different than what I'm experiencing, what you're, what any of us are experiencing. So in that case, every, if you have a human nervous system, you are in a simulated reality. It's just you are.

• 2:17:08Chris Williamson?

  Simulated by you.

• 2:17:09Speaker 00

  You're the simulator and.

• 2:17:11Chris Williamson?

  What was, what was your matrix conspiracy?

• 2:17:13Speaker 02

  No, I, I, I don't think that there's anything new to the hypothesis that we are living in a simulation. There is language that we now use that's based upon our understanding of metaphysics and our understanding of quantum, the reality that we live in. But if you go read the Apunishads from 3,500 years ago and the Vedic wisdom, you'll literally, they're saying exactly this. They're saying exactly this. It's, it is a almost one for one, except the language is just different in which they attribute, you know, these principles. It's kind of the perennial philosophy. It's all this Huxley.

• 2:17:54Speaker 02

  It is the idea that there is a reason why throughout all of human history, at least in our organized civilizations, that we have come to the, the, the people that have been, the, the wise people of the, of whatever epic that is, have all come to the same conclusion. And that is that we are all connected. We are all one thing, that all of our physical reality is an illusion. That there is no such thing as time and space. I mean, now I'm really.

• 2:18:30Chris Williamson?

  Sounds like you're back on crack.

• 2:18:31Speaker 02

  What? I love it. But I really mean it though. And that, it is, it is nothing new. We have different ways of explaining it.

• 2:18:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:18:40Speaker 02

  But if you look at like where we are headed with AI right now, and everybody that I listen to, that comes on, that are really truly involved in the creation of this, all have come to the same conclusion that within one, two, maybe already we're at AGI. And if that's the case, then we're, what, two, three years maximum in terms of superintelligence? Not even, we're almost minutes away from it potentially from superintelligence. And if we've hit superintelligence, we've just crossed a line that is the greatest advancement in human, the, the human experience ever.

• 2:19:19Speaker 03

  What separates artificial, like superintelligence from our regular artificial?

• 2:19:23Speaker 00

  It innovates.

• 2:19:25Speaker 03

  Oh, so it just thinks, so we have superintelligence.

• 2:19:27Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, except.

• 2:19:30Speaker 02

  No, so there's the difference.

• 2:19:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:31Speaker 02

  AGI is that there is a machine can do everything and anything that a, a human can do.

• 2:19:39Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:19:40Speaker 02

  Superintelligence is when a machine can do things that humans have never been able to do or do.

• 2:19:46Speaker 00

  Which by the way, I read some articles.

• 2:19:48Speaker 02

  By the way, I just made that up.

• 2:19:50Speaker 00

  That's really, you should write that down.

• 2:19:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, but what if it says stuff and we don't, we're just like, what if it's dumb? It's just, we're like, is it gonna say stuff that we're like, we're so gonna have to decide whether it's like smarter than.

• 2:20:00Speaker 02

  Well, by the way, it's like an alien landing on Earth. That's what it is. If you wanna believe in aliens, they are about to land. Because what it is, it'd be a species that is so far more capable in understanding that us, what we're capable of, they will, the superintelligence will look at us potentially, and this is what they're concerned with.

• 2:20:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:22Speaker 02

  As like, we look at ants and like, we look at insects.

• 2:20:26Speaker 00

  Here's an example.

• 2:20:27Speaker 02

  And whether or not they save us, or they, or it, you know, or put us in the zoo, or whether this has happened a billion times before and we're living in the same, you know?

• 2:20:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:37Speaker 00

  This is what Bostrom said, like to, to put into perspective. It's a great book, Superintelligence. Have you read that book? It's so good. He, so basically the way that we process time is based somehow on how fast the brain, I'm, obviously I'm not a doctor or a scientist, but Bostrom's example is theoretically, if you get a superintelligence and like, and you spill your coffee, like before the coffee hits the floor, the superintelligence could have written like a hundred doctoral theses in, in that amount of time. And so the way it, one of the questions is, will it even be aware of us anymore?

• 2:21:19Speaker 00

  Like, we will seem so slow to it. But a more real world example, which I read, it's already happened, is these things are innovating ways to like redo engines that we don't quite understand. So what could start happening is it starts giving us blueprints to create technologies and we don't even know why or how they work. Essentially, it's Lord of the Rings. Like, now it's just magic. These things are spitting out, you know, cures or God knows what. And then on top of that.

• 2:21:50Speaker 02

  Let's think of it from the idea of a prediction.

• 2:21:52Speaker 00

  Right, yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:54Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. If you're trying to understand what we are going to do, or what any, what anything is gonna do, that's the same way. And, and.

• 2:22:02Speaker 02

  It could, it, by the way, it's either, I believe that there is a, a utopia to it, potentially, potentially, but there's no getting to that utopia without going through what, and I don't want to use the word apocalypse, but some really, really difficult times that the way in which everything that we do is going to be so completely dislodged. Like, we're sitting here talking about saving democracy. I don't know how, how, what is the purpose of a government and democracy in a world in which superintelligence exists, which can't be controlled? And that's the other thing. This whole idea that somebody's going to get to it before we do.

• 2:22:45Speaker 02

  Once you create, once superintelligence is released, there's no pouring your soda can on the computer.

• 2:22:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, how though? It's not, it's not like saved in servers and all that stuff or powered by.

• 2:22:56Speaker 02

  It has already, without being even supposedly reaching AGI, has figured out ways to preserve itself. So like, they've run these tests, they've run these tests, and I think, forget it was at Anthropic or.

• 2:23:10Speaker 00

  It's Anthropic.

• 2:23:10Speaker 02

  Anthropic, in which they were going to shut, they, they, they let the, the, the model know that it was going to be shut down. Not directly, but through communications that were on, you know, on the server between the scientists that were involved. And you know what it did? It created copies of itself. It hid those copies from the, from its creator. And also it began to blackmail. The, they put in little things about, like, one of the scientists was having an affair with one of the other scientists. So it started to send emails to the one scientist saying, if you attempt to do this, let it be known that they were going to blackmail them and make it public their affair that they were having with a, another side.

• 2:23:56Speaker 02

  So it started to take these self-preservation that we're never instructed to do, and which was in a direct,

• 2:24:05Speaker 02

  directly opposed to the actual directions that the people that created it were giving it.

• 2:24:12Speaker 00

  But that's.

• 2:24:12Speaker 02

  And that's even before.

• 2:24:15Speaker 03

  I wonder though, is it possible we're in the middle of like the most unfathomable marketing campaign for this technology?

• 2:24:23Speaker 02

  By the way, I've thought about that.

• 2:24:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:25Speaker 02

  And you absolutely 100% could be right.

• 2:24:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I think about that all the time. I'm like, you know, again, like, marketing evolves.

• 2:24:33Speaker 02

  For the trillions of dollars that they are putting into, yeah.

• 2:24:36Speaker 03

  Forty Stanford educated people and like, like, let's cook, how would we cook up the next thing?

• 2:24:40Speaker 02

  So was it a whole big psy-op when, when Anthropic came out and said they just created a model?

• 2:24:45Speaker 03

  Oh, you guys can't use those.

• 2:24:48Speaker 02

  And by the way, the real joke on all of us is they called it mythos. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, I mean, I could totally, completely.

• 2:24:56Speaker 03

  I wonder about, that's my other thing I wonder, I'm like, maybe, you know, for me, it's like, I don't know. But I always wonder, I'm like, I don't know, part of me feels like I'm in the middle of the most insane marketing campaign.

• 2:25:04Speaker 00

  No, they just whipped up, I just read this, they just used an AI to create a virus, a bacteriophage that they just did, they've already done this, they.

• 2:25:13Speaker 03

  Who the fuck is doing this? It's like, stop. Don't do that, don't do that.

• 2:25:17Speaker 00

  I know, it's crazy, but they did it. And so this, this is the, apparently there's an LLM, but for genome editing, they already have this.

• 2:25:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:27Speaker 00

  And so the, what, what we're looking at even before, like the Terrence McKinnon utopian end of history, singularity, time machine bullshit, is, I think, more akin to like, school shootings. It's like, we now know that kids will go into a school and just start shooting a bunch of people using guns. What happens when technology formerly accessible only by like the Wuhan Institute for Virology and the, what's it called? What is it Fauci was doing there?

• 2:25:58Speaker 03

  Gain of function.

• 2:25:59Speaker 00

  Gain of function, well, you know, you, what happens?

• 2:26:02Speaker 02

  Fucked up, we all know what gain of function.

• 2:26:03Speaker 03

  I know.

• 2:26:04Speaker 00

  I never wanted to know that.

• 2:26:05Chris Williamson?

  See it into my brain.

• 2:26:07Speaker 02

  None of us really know what that is, anyway.

• 2:26:09Speaker 03

  It's an amplifier.

• 2:26:12Speaker 02

  Fucking gain of function, man.

• 2:26:15Speaker 03

  It's an amplifier, dude.

• 2:26:16Speaker 00

  You can already order gene editing kits online. And so what happens when this technology falls into the hands of non-state agencies, just pissed off people who want to start whipping up their own diseases? What happens then? This is, you know, the, the more present danger than an AGI is someone using some kind of local LLM trained on gene editing and some fucking DNA printer to whip up some new disease.

• 2:26:47Chris Williamson?

  On the, on the DNA printer thing, that is an area that's actually a bit more secure, which is pretty cool. So I've had a couple of conversations, Annie Jacobson, who's written this new book about biological war, and a, a few of the people that have worked in X risk for a while. When you have these desktop printers, DNA sequences, if you want to print anything, you can't do it without a connection. And there's green, yellow, and red. And green, you're allowed to print freely, yellow, you need to get permission, and red, the FBI turn up and kick your fucking door down.

• 2:27:17Speaker 00

  Okay, but let me stop you there. I have a local, theoretically, local LLM, a local LLM, it's offline. I downloaded it, it's like one of these new Chinese local LLMs, it's online, right?

• 2:27:28Chris Williamson?

  You've used Kimi or whatever.

• 2:27:29Speaker 00

  How do I fix that problem? How do I make it so my?

• 2:27:33Chris Williamson?

  Can you hack my desktop printer to get around the thing?

• 2:27:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, all these things, you know, whatever.

• 2:27:38Chris Williamson?

  I mean, all of this, all of this stuff is an arms race between the development of the technology and the protections that we need to put around it. It just is permanently moving like this. The crazy thing is, I don't think from a consumer standpoint, that people are that bothered about AIs getting that much better. They're already achieving probably 90%, 95% of what, I wish it was a bit less sycophantic, I wish it wouldn't use so many M dashes. Oh, I wish it would like write a bit better or whatever.

• 2:28:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:28:02Chris Williamson?

  But like, for the most part, like fucking new chat GPT links in with you, all of the health stuff on your phone. And I've got this test that I want to know, and can you give me advice for the present, for the fucking, I'm going away on holiday? Like, all that stuff.

• 2:28:15Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 2:28:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:16Speaker 02

  By the way, it's absolutely amazing and life-changing and, and.

• 2:28:21Chris Williamson?

  And terrifying.

• 2:28:22Speaker 02

  And by, to your point, like, if somebody can build that, like that,

• 2:28:28Speaker 02

  to do us harm, then my feeling is, is that the opposite is true, that we just as fast can come up with the, with, with, with the antidote.

• 2:28:36Chris Williamson?

  That being said though.

• 2:28:36Speaker 02

  It's that, it doesn't mean that it's not going to be really, really scary.

• 2:28:40Chris Williamson?

  There's way more ways to break stuff than fix stuff, all right? Like, there's only a few ways that you want things to go well, but there's basically an infinite number of ways that things can go badly. So you can tend to, you just have to work harder to avoid that. Question on that, on the Fauci thing, I haven't been fucking keeping up with this at all, but all I see online are videos of people shouting at Fauci. Like, he's sat in a chair looking sad, and people are just saying mean things at him, and then he keeps bleeding the fifth. What are they trying to do?

• 2:29:06Speaker 02

  Okay, here, let me, I know this is not the hate, but popular in, in, where I'm, I'm, maybe, maybe not. I don't know where you guys.

• 2:29:14Chris Williamson?

  I don't know what's going on.

• 2:29:15Speaker 02

  Okay, it's this. Whatever you think of Anthony Fauci, him taking the fifth was his only choice. And here's why, is because I know from personal experience, is that all they were doing with Fauci is bringing him up to Congress so that he could testify. And if he opened his mouth, no matter what he said, they were going to refer him to the Justice Department, which is owned lock, stock, and barrel by Donald Trump and whatever whims that he has, and they were going to charge him with perjury. That's it. And regardless of whether there is a true, is now they've charged him, they're considering charging him with contempt of Congress. I thought they did.

• 2:29:57Speaker 02

  There is no jury in the world, there is no, I can't even believe they'll get it through a grand jury. If they, Congress did, whether the Justice Department follows through with charges on contempt of Congress is another thing. Because everyone has the ability to take the fifth. It is the, it, just like I have the right to say what I want to say, you know, as long as it's not yelling fire in a crowded movie theater, is under the First Amendment, I have the right to the Fifth Amendment, which means that I don't have to open my mouth in a situation in which I am under oath and I could later be charged as, for lying.

• 2:30:37Speaker 03

  But they're, that's fair. Are they, because I don't really know much about either, other than they found his diary or something on the state.

• 2:30:44Speaker 02

  They didn't find it, they subpoenaed his diary.

• 2:30:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:30:47Speaker 02

  And, yeah.

• 2:30:48Speaker 03

  So, but what they're trying to prove, I guess, is that did he actually have knowledge that it was made in a lab or not?

• 2:30:55Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:30:56Speaker 03

  And that's.

• 2:30:56Speaker 02

  And so under his diary, and he, and he's spoken about this publicly, he said that he's testified to it, that he says, no, it is not the gain of function research that, that he believes. He, he's also said that he does not know whether it was a lab leak or whether it was, you know, natural from whatever. And I don't know.

• 2:31:15Speaker 03

  I thought there was an admission in the diary that he was like, or at least somebody told him that there, it was like, yeah.

• 2:31:20Speaker 02

  I don't know, do we have like the Google?

• 2:31:22Speaker 03

  I think, I think there was something, and again, I could be wrong, but I think there was something saying, there was a lot of people being like, there's no way this was a wet market. And then they were kind of taking off the panel of experts, quote unquote. They're like, no, we have a unanimous, that's, again, that's what I've heard, I don't know if that was like.

• 2:31:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, see, I don't know. That's the thing, I think that if that's what we'd heard, it would have been much bigger story.

• 2:31:42Speaker 00

  Dear diary.

• 2:31:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:46Speaker 02

  Remember what we have heard, because this is, this is the tell, by the way.

• 2:31:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:51Speaker 02

  What did we learn from his diary? That he had a really big ego. And that he was kind of blown away by the amount of attention and fame that he had in, in that moment of time. Those are all the things, you've heard that reporting, right? You've heard that reporting about that, you know, and.

• 2:32:06Chris Williamson?

  I mean, you really don't want that.

• 2:32:07Speaker 02

  That's what we learned from his diary.

• 2:32:09Chris Williamson?

  Lead, leading the response to a pandemic.

• 2:32:11Speaker 02

  That it was gain of function, that he was responsible for setting it up in the Wuhan lab and that's the leak? Then we wouldn't be sitting here wondering whether or not he's being charged.

• 2:32:19Chris Williamson?

  Did you see RFK bragging that he's got no gag reflex?

• 2:32:23Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 2:32:24Speaker 00

  What?

• 2:32:24Chris Williamson?

  Have you seen this video? For real.

• 2:32:26Speaker 00

  What?

• 2:32:26Chris Williamson?

  Watch this.

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  I don't have a gag reflex. I will literally eat anything. I don't have, I don't have.

• 2:32:35Speaker 00

  I can fit a hundred foot sausage in my mouth.

• 2:32:38Speaker 03

  He's talking about taste of food.

• 2:32:40Chris Williamson?

  Right, but I mean, that's just.

• 2:32:41Speaker 00

  Oh, he's not saying eating stuff. Oh.

• 2:32:44Chris Williamson?

  Is this, I'm sorry. Is that not just my, no person should ever, statesmen should ever say that.

• 2:32:54Speaker 03

  RFK is my Fauci. I like RFK the way I think you like Fauci. And I, dude, I used to eat green beans and I would gag. Wasn't like throwing them. I would taste them and be like, yeah. So I like, I like RFK. But yeah, he does.

• 2:33:06Chris Williamson?

  Do you like him now?

• 2:33:07Speaker 03

  I, I've always liked him.

• 2:33:08Chris Williamson?

  Do you like him more now?

• 2:33:09Speaker 03

  For sure. I want to hang out with him.

• 2:33:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, he seems pretty fun.

• 2:33:13Chris Williamson?

  Now, I really want to hang out with him.

• 2:33:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is.

• 2:33:18Chris Williamson?

  Just saying. What do you, what do you make of RFK?

• 2:33:21Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 2:33:22Chris Williamson?

  What? What do you make of RFK?

• 2:33:23Speaker 02

  I don't know, man. I mean, here's what I make of RFK is that I, I believe that he, um, uh, I don't know. I just am so disappointed. That's why. Because forget about the, all the other stuff. Okay? I don't, um, I don't share the same view that he has, but I don't have any of the scientific background as it relates to

• 2:33:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:33:44Speaker 02

  the vaccines and all that kind of shit.

• 2:33:49Speaker 02

  I'm, I, I,

• 2:33:53Speaker 02

  Trump is an existential threat and everybody will say, oh, this is Trump derangement. Is this, is it? One of the things that I know and that I, no one is ever going to take me off of this is Trump is doing more damage to the United States of America than any other single individual that I can possibly think of since maybe Andrew Johnson after the assassination of, of Abraham Lincoln. I really mean it. He is like, like the way in which he has turned a, uh, the Oval Office into the family office that for the pure benefit of him. Take away all of the policy decisions or whether you think about woke in, you know, the military or whatever that shit.

• 2:34:33Speaker 02

  I don't give a shit. Is the way in which he's turned it into a, a, a way to personally gain.

• 2:34:41Chris Williamson?

  Is that an existential threat though? Or is that just a shallow one?

• 2:34:44Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. Because if you are able to, uh, become president for the sole purpose of benefiting yourself, that is called a king. It is literally is a, regardless of whether you have elections in the future or not. If you are able to with, with impunity, make the Oval Office, make the presidency into a, uh, you know, a, a personal project for your own benefit. You know, I mean, look, man, the Qataris gave him a half a billion dollar jet. He then took it to the Department of Defense and put in another billion and a half in taxpayer money into it.

• 2:35:28Speaker 02

  And he has a signed document from his own Attorney General saying that he gets to take the plane with him when he leaves the presidency.

• 2:35:36Chris Williamson?

  Fucking nice jet.

• 2:35:36Speaker 00

  That's crazy.

• 2:35:37Speaker 03

  That's crazy.

• 2:35:38Speaker 02

  Okay?

• 2:35:39Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I can't, I can't, I can't criticize the guy that gets a two billion dollar jet.

• 2:35:43Speaker 02

  Just think about how insane that is.

• 2:35:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:35:46Speaker 02

  Forget about all the other stuff. Just take that one thing. And by the way, there is a clause. It's called the emoluments clause in the Constitution. It says, no president can take a gift. My dad and mom, you know, I mean, they get gifts everywhere you go. They literally, you send them to the National Archives. You send them to the Smithsonian. They don't keep a single personal gift unless they decided that they wanted to pay for it. And of course, they didn't have any money to be able to pay for it.

• 2:36:10Speaker 00

  President has to pay for the gifts they get?

• 2:36:12Speaker 02

  Oh yeah. A hundred percent.

• 2:36:13Speaker 00

  That's horseshit.

• 2:36:14Speaker 02

  If they take it or they keep it. By the way, I don't, I don't disagree.

• 2:36:17Speaker 03

  That's, that's fair. I don't disagree that he's, you know, fucking nuts. The, the question though is like, he's definitely not the first president to act in their own interest. If you take all of politicians.

• 2:36:27Speaker 02

  I'm not saying that, but.

• 2:36:28Speaker 03

  His self-interest you're saying is so inflated.

• 2:36:30Speaker 02

  So insane. So insane, over the top.

• 2:36:35Speaker 00

  It just feels like he's the first president to come out and do what they've all been doing.

• 2:36:40Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 2:36:41Speaker 00

  And by the way, I, I'm not saying, listen, I'm not saying I like Trump.

• 2:36:45Speaker 02

  He makes, he makes Richard Nixon look like a piker. He is literally for a hundred thousand dollars. You can pay True Social, you can, you can go on True Social, pay an additional hundred thousand dollars to get a, to, to get like an hour ahead of time the text that he's about to put out.

• 2:37:02Speaker 00

  So no, it stops.

• 2:37:03Speaker 02

  And you know what he's doing? Yeah. No, by the way, it's literally paying for insider trading.

• 2:37:07Speaker 00

  And it's a.

• 2:37:07Speaker 02

  So if he goes on True Social and says, I'm opening up the Straits of, or, oh, the Straits of Hormuz are open up again for the 39th time.

• 2:37:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's fucked up.

• 2:37:15Speaker 02

  He, you pay True Social and he's completely open about it. He made thirty four thousand or thirty four hundred, thirty four hundred trades in the first quarter of this year as president of the United States. You know how many more that is than like my dad? Thirty four hundred. You know how much more that is than Barack Obama? Thirty four hundred. Of their entire eight years of their presidency.

• 2:37:39Speaker 03

  I'm so dumb. I was about to be like, you said your dad didn't make trades. I'm like, fuck.

• 2:37:46Speaker 00

  Gotcha.

• 2:37:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, that is, that's probably why he's always going on about stock market. He comes out and he's like, dude, the stock market is crushing it right now. What are you so mad about?

• 2:37:55Speaker 02

  By the way, every single time, go look at the Wall Street Journal. You literally can see it in terms of the thing. They have the actual numbers. Is that there's like, oh, interestingly enough, when he, um, uh, imposed the blockade, an hour before, there's a five hundred billion dollar trade.

• 2:38:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, you could see it.

• 2:38:13Speaker 02

  Listen to this.

• 2:38:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:38:14Speaker 02

  Jared Kushner, okay? Jared Kushner, who is not elected by anyone, not appointed by anyone. He supposedly does not work directly for the White House. He doesn't have a Senate confirmation position. He doesn't work for the Department of Defense or the Department of State. However, he is our envoy to the Middle East. He's getting paid over a hundred million dollars by the Saudis alone and has over six point two billion dollars under management from the Gulf states, including UAE, Qatar, Oman, and everybody else in the region that are paying him hundreds of million dollars in fees to him personally. Who is he negotiating for? He's getting paid a hundred million dollars for certain.

• 2:38:57Chris Williamson?

  You fucked it with Ukraine. You could have gone so much harder.

• 2:38:59Speaker 02

  No, I know. But by the way, oh, a hundred percent. But literally, who's he negotiating for? He and Witkoff? When, as it relates to what happens in Gaza, has a relation to what happens in Straits of Hormuz? Because he literally is the mouthpiece for, for the United States of America.

• 2:39:12Speaker 03

  Why do you think, why, because I, I mean, the.

• 2:39:15Speaker 02

  Can you imagine?

• 2:39:15Speaker 03

  It's insane. That's absolutely fucking nuts. Why do you think Trump did the Iran thing? Because it seems so obviously dislikeable from so many people.

• 2:39:23Speaker 02

  For that reason.

• 2:39:24Speaker 03

  Because of the Saudis.

• 2:39:25Speaker 00

  Kushner?

• 2:39:26Speaker 02

  That will tell you why. Is because every single Prime Minister of Israel since Jimmy Carter has walked into the Oval Office and begged the president to strike around.

• 2:39:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:39Speaker 02

  Since Jimmy Carter, every one, every president has said, love you, get out of my office. You know why they've done that? You know why they've done that?

• 2:39:49Speaker 00

  It's bad.

• 2:39:50Speaker 02

  Because every one of them knows is that the first thing the Iranians can do is they're going to shut down the Straits of Hormuz. And you know what that's going to do? It is going to literally paralyze the world economy. Not just as it relates to our fuel, but as it relates to everything that has to do with petroleum. But in particular, the one that's going, that everybody's not even talking about is what it does to fertilizer and to the cost of the American farmer. And so we, the breadbasket of the world, are getting crushed. Farmers are getting crushed right now. And so now.

• 2:40:22Chris Williamson?

  What's the state of the Strait of Hormuz now?

• 2:40:24Speaker 02

  Still closed. He's now opened it up over thirty nine, this is like the fortieth time. I, I nominated him for the Nobel Peace Prize for ending a war more than, not only, not once, not twice, thirty eight times.

• 2:40:38Speaker 03

  Why, why would the Saudis want the Strait of Hormuz closed though?

• 2:40:41Speaker 02

  They don't want it closed and they didn't want this to happen. Israelis want it to happen. And what they thought that they were going to be able to do is decapitate and take out Khomeini and that all of a sudden that the rest of the Gulf would, would rally, that they would come in. But everybody, look, you gotta, there's a guy that, that teaches this at the war college in, um, uh, the Army War College. He's where all of the, um, senior leadership of the military come and he's, and he's been teaching, basically gaming out a war with Iran for over twenty five.

• 2:41:14Speaker 00

  Did you see that? It was so good.

• 2:41:16Speaker 02

  He's amazing. Now he's gone back on like three times. He gives, he's giving exactly, this, this is what happens. If you decapitate, if you take, look, Khomeini, Ayatollah Khomeini had a fatwa, which is an edict. It's basically like the, the, uh, like the Pope came out and, and.

• 2:41:33Speaker 03

  It's like the Muslim wanted sign.

• 2:41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the, by the way, that's the fatwa, but also, yeah, exactly. But you can also issue a fatwa as it relates to like an edict, like saying, this is what we believe. For over twenty years, he's annually put out a fatwa saying that they do not believe in nuclear energy as a, uh, as, to be a weapon. It was, it was religious law from their supreme leader that they would never turn the nuclear energy that they were trying to do into, into a bomb. Okay? This is this guy, not me talking, you know, so.

• 2:42:05Speaker 03

  Wasn't this guy like bombing his citizens though?

• 2:42:08Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:42:08Speaker 03

  He wasn't, so he wasn't.

• 2:42:10Speaker 02

  No, in Iran? No, that was, that was Saudi.

• 2:42:12Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, Iran, I mean, it's like.

• 2:42:14Speaker 02

  But the Ayatollah, so his son, his son, however, is, is always been known to be very close to the IRGC. The Revolutionary Guard. Who are the radicals? Who are the ones that, you know, do you have a, uh, several hundred thousand, a strong army, which is the IRGC? He's now in charge because we killed the father. And you know what? He's all for turn, uh, uh, building a nuclear bomb. So that's who we replaced him from. And you don't have to do anything as if you're the, all this talk of taking out all their missiles and taking out, all it is, is like a couple hundred thousand drones that are literally buried in the sand along the strait. You know, we'll never be able to take them all out. And all it takes is one, two, three to take out an oil tanker.

• 2:42:57Speaker 02

  Because what insurance company is going to insure any of those tankers to go through the Strait of Hormuz? So they can keep it as closed as long as they want. I mean, just before I came on this, it was just announced that the deal that he had with them is the, Randy said, he's out of his mind. What, I don't even know what he's talking about.

• 2:43:14Speaker 00

  What do you think's gonna happen?

• 2:43:15Speaker 02

  There's no deal.

• 2:43:15Speaker 00

  What do you think's gonna happen?

• 2:43:16Speaker 02

  I think it stays, I think it stays closed as long as they want to keep it closed. And that's what they realized. He basically put out a feelers two days ago saying, he doesn't even care if there's a nuclear deal.

• 2:43:30Speaker 02

  He just as long as he can open up the straighter removes, he's ready to kind of like move on.

• 2:43:34Speaker 00

  Are you worried he's gonna use a nuclear, are you worried he's gonna use a nuclear weapon? He's gonna get so backed into a corner midterms are coming up. He doesn't want to do boots on the ground. He knows what, what happens with that. So like, you know, that's what people are kind of muttering about is he's gonna like, like do a small scale.

• 2:43:51Chris Williamson?

  Just a little one.

• 2:43:52Speaker 03

  Midterm news.

• 2:43:53Speaker 00

  A little one.

• 2:43:54Chris Williamson?

  Just like, yeah, I'm just giving you a little news.

• 2:43:55Speaker 00

  A gentleman's news.

• 2:43:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, haven't that it made like you just.

• 2:44:00Speaker 02

  Not before the midterms, maybe after.

• 2:44:02Speaker 00

  You think after you would do it for real, Dick Flick?

• 2:44:04Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 2:44:05Speaker 03

  You can't, yeah.

• 2:44:06Speaker 00

  That's terrifying. You really think that? Cause I do too.

• 2:44:08Chris Williamson?

  You think he'd press the button?

• 2:44:10Speaker 02

  I think that he could, uh, I, I think that he is, um,

• 2:44:16Speaker 02

  he is a, um, uh, he is, in my opinion, a malignant narcissist.

• 2:44:25Chris Williamson?

  Doesn't mean that you're gonna drop a nuke though.

• 2:44:27Speaker 02

  What? I, there's that doctor that, that, and I don't necessarily agree with this, you know, like, you know, he's a psychologist, but this guy is, you know, like Harvard trained. In 2015, he went on and he said, I've studied Donald Trump and I, and I believe, and he's like the foremost expert in, in this field. And he said, I believe that Donald Trump has exhibits all the behaviors of a very rare diagnosis. By the way, it's not a sociopath. It's not a psychopath. It's not just a narcissist, a malignant narcissist. Now pull up the, the, what the traits of a malignant narcissist. And I love how I'm running the show now.

• 2:45:03Chris Williamson?

  Get in there. It's good. Charon.

• 2:45:05Speaker 02

  But my point is this, he said, what it will be like, if he ever's ever elected president is like an asteroid hitting the United States of America. And I really truly believe that that's what it has been like. I, whatever you think about January 6th, just go look at the images. If that wasn't one of the greatest traumas to this, to, to the body politic of the United States of America, I don't know what, what was. Simply by how it divided us in the way in which we saw it with our own eyes.

• 2:45:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you, here's the thing with that. Do you don't think the Democrats had any role in the division? Cause I feel like they were fucking brutal.

• 2:45:42Speaker 02

  But by the, by the way, of course, of course, obviously there's always another side. But here's the one thing that I know, there's always been another side. There's never been another Donald Trump. He literally has broken us in a way that I have not witnessed any other politician being able to do.

• 2:45:57Speaker 00

  But you know what? Here, I have to say this. I, he's gonna, he's fucking things up and he's, it's going to, I don't see any way. You know, again, Mr. Black pill over here. I don't see how this gets better. Iran knows that they've got him. They know, he, they, and, and if like, dude, if like some dude blew up, my fucking dad, my daughter, you know, like I, what, what do I, who gives a fuck? I'm, I'm gonna do everything.

• 2:46:24Chris Williamson?

  Malignant narcissist is not an official mental health diagnosis and diagnostic manuals like the DSM five. It's an informal term. Common traits that might be associated with malignant narcissism include grandiosity, an exaggerated sense of importance, superiority or uniqueness, need for admiration, strong desire for praise, validation and attention, lack of empathy, difficulty recognizing or caring about other people's feelings or needs, manipulativeness, sense of entitlement, exploitation.

• 2:46:47Speaker 03

  I think it's just an asshole. I think it's just an asshole.

• 2:46:51Speaker 00

  You know, my therapist says I'm the greatest narcissist she's ever worked with.

• 2:46:55Speaker 03

  Really?

• 2:46:55Chris Williamson?

  What's that mean?

• 2:46:58Speaker 03

  Um, but I, I, I hear on this, and again, I, I'm not a, like a Trump apologist guy, but I, this like narcissistic, like, you know, I talked to a doctor and he actually said he's a narcissist. It's like.

• 2:47:09Speaker 00

  No, I totally, by the way, Matt, I'm with you. I totally agree.

• 2:47:12Speaker 03

  He's obviously, he's nuts for sure.

• 2:47:13Speaker 02

  He's fucking nuts though. Come on, man.

• 2:47:15Speaker 00

  Well, you said earlier, like he literally sits there and he, he, he tells us that he just shot a 70.

• 2:47:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:47:22Speaker 00

  At Bedminster and he won for the 40th time, his, his club championship. Who do you, I don't, no, really. You're the president.

• 2:47:28Speaker 03

  His dick fell out of his shorts.

• 2:47:29Speaker 00

  Sitting out of the Oval Office.

• 2:47:32Speaker 03

  It's kind of wild.

• 2:47:33Speaker 00

  It's wild, man.

• 2:47:34Speaker 03

  He is, and also too, the, uh, the, the real, I think, like, I mean, and there's been a lot of them, but the one that was a real slippage was like the, what do you say? Like, uh, not Al Akbar, but he had one.

• 2:47:45Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah. When he said, um, uh, yeah.

• 2:47:49Speaker 03

  Praise, praise be Allah. I'll praise Allah about the bombing.

• 2:47:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna, yeah, yeah. Yeah. He's a piece of.

• 2:47:55Speaker 02

  Bomb you into the stone age or whatever.

• 2:47:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:47:58Speaker 00

  He's blowing up children.

• 2:47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:47:59Speaker 00

  Fucking, but you kind of breezed over what Matt was saying, which is like, I don't, there's always been another side. But I think in this case, if you really want to like, look at what happened and how this happened.

• 2:48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:12Speaker 00

  You, and you do have to look at how absolutely venomous the Democrats got. How, how Kamala Harris was just suddenly shoved in front of everybody.

• 2:48:23Speaker 02

  It's fucking Kamala, pal.

• 2:48:26Speaker 00

  No, I'm not.

• 2:48:30Speaker 00

  I'm not saying it's Kamala.

• 2:48:31Speaker 02

  God damn it.

• 2:48:32Speaker 00

  But.

• 2:48:33Speaker 03

  Real leather jacket liberal.

• 2:48:34Speaker 02

  But you're racist.

• 2:48:36Speaker 00

  But for sure, that, that didn't help.

• 2:48:39Speaker 02

  Peter Till, loving racist.

• 2:48:43Speaker 03

  That's literally what, that's kind of what they did.

• 2:48:46Speaker 00

  Yeah, you got it, man. That's exactly it.

• 2:48:49Speaker 02

  By the way, exactly. I swear to God, literally, but I'm telling you, I truly believe that it is, he is not like, he is not the symptom of the disease. He is the disease and we are all the symptom. I, I, look, I really mean it. So that's just my feeling. I don't think that it's solved everything when he is, is, is, is gone from public life. And, but I told, you, you're right. Like it's crazy. Like the, the way in which like the whining and eh, and like, oh my God, and all that shit. Like it drives me fucking crazy too.

• 2:49:19Speaker 03

  It wasn't even that. So Trump is like an overt, like he watched him like, yeah, I totally get it. There was so much quiet kind of manipulative stuff that I would say more liberal eating people would do back. They would try to destroy your livelihood. They would try to take your job away from you. And it was like all patting each other on the back. I, what I saw, especially at Brimar, you know, I'm probably gonna get sued by them one day, but

• 2:49:40Speaker 03

  it was, it was for real.

• 2:49:41Speaker 02

  You literally were like in the bastion of like woke.

• 2:49:45Speaker 03

  Graduate school from Brimar.

• 2:49:46Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:49:47Speaker 03

  But, but they're, they're there, they're people's therapists and stuff. And they're, they were, in one thing, they were talking about taking people who were, you know, needed therapy, needed help, and turning them into political agents as a mode of therapy that would help them. And I'm like, dude, that's sick.

• 2:50:02Speaker 02

  Okay. I totally, totally agree.

• 2:50:03Speaker 03

  But my whole point is, my whole point, here's what I don't want to do. It's like, Trump is like, you know, he is some figurehead of some sort of ugliness. I think that kind of like, you know, he's like in very touch with our age. You can get rid of him. And then if you kind of say like, and here's the good guys. I'm like, I don't know about that.

• 2:50:19Speaker 02

  I'm not saying here's the good guys.

• 2:50:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:50:21Speaker 02

  But what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is, is that if you truly believe in a constitutional democracy, if you truly believe in the rule of law, like I say it all, everybody, I was asked on another show, it's like, well, don't you think that you getting a pardon was not good for, you know, um, uh, you know, the country? And the, like, I guess they expect me to answer like, no, I think it was fine. It was fucking awful. It's fucking awful. It's a totally bad look.

• 2:50:44Speaker 03

  I thought you were serious. I was like, yeah, if I got pardoned, I'd be like, yeah, it was sick.

• 2:50:47Speaker 02

  No, by the way, I, I.

• 2:50:48Speaker 03

  I don't, I wouldn't fall for you for that. I'm like, dude.

• 2:50:50Speaker 02

  I have the deepest gratitude in the world for it personally, but was it good for the country? No. No, I'd like this, you know, the, the former pardon attorney saying, I was really, you know, this, that and the other thing. But what, what's the alternative? What was the alternative? Can you imagine if I was under the, uh, the federal bureau of probation right now? Would my dad be able to write a book and be critical of, of Donald Trump?

• 2:51:11Chris Williamson?

  What would have happened if you hadn't been pardoned and Trump got elected?

• 2:51:14Speaker 02

  Well, number one is this, is that

• 2:51:18Speaker 02

  if, oh, if I had not been pardoned, well, the case that was the gun case is that I bought a gun and on the form it says, are you addicted to a controlled substance? Okay? And you can read that as being like a state of mind in the moment, you know? And so that's why the Supreme Court just overturned it. And at least as it relates to marijuana users said it's an unconstitutional. They'll get to all the other drugs and I believe that it will ultimately all be unconstitutional, what I was convicted under. Now I owned the gun for 11 days. It was in a lockbox. I never loaded it, never fired it.

• 2:51:58Speaker 02

  Somebody had a concern for the safe, my, my safety, not anybody else's, thinking I was gonna harm myself, threw it in the trash can. I self-reported that it was thrown in the trash can. Police came to collect it. They then never gave me back the gun. I never asked for the gun back. Five years later is when they decided to charge me with it.

• 2:52:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:52:17Speaker 02

  And so every, the other ones is that I got convicted, I, I pled guilty to not paying my taxes on time. Okay. So in 2016 and 17, when I was in the midst of my addiction, so 17 and 18, um, when I was supposed to file, I, I, I basically thought.

• 2:52:37Chris Williamson?

  Taxes weren't front of mind for you?

• 2:52:39Speaker 02

  No, they weren't front of mind for me. Not that it was, and I never even filed. So when I, when I got clean, sober, I went to go file my taxes and my accountant had died in that period of time. I had a new accountant. They said.

• 2:52:50Chris Williamson?

  You didn't even notice your accountant had died?

• 2:52:51Speaker 02

  No, I did not. And, yeah, and.

• 2:52:54Chris Williamson?

  Crack's a hell of a drug.

• 2:52:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Hell of a drug. Yeah. By the way, that's the best, can we play that? Can we play the, uh, the Rick James? Cocaine, the hell of a drug.

• 2:53:05Speaker 03

  So was the gun and then tax stuff.

• 2:53:07Speaker 02

  And so I had paid my taxes with penalties and interest. I haven't found a, another case in which somebody who's paid with penalties and interest was criminally charged for failure to that.

• 2:53:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:53:19Speaker 02

  And they said that then I like, um, I, I took deductions that I should not have taken. Um, you know, I, I, when I went through them, I, you know, you know, all my, all my travel and expenses were, you know, I, I put as business expenses. They said, well, not travel expenses. You were also smoking crack and doing, you know, blah, blah, blah.

• 2:53:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:53:38Chris Williamson?

  Did you ever put crack on the business card?

• 2:53:40Speaker 02

  No, never put cash on the business card.

• 2:53:42Speaker 00

  You can't find crack with a credit card.

• 2:53:45Speaker 02

  Not most dealers use credit cards, but yeah, yeah, Venmo.

• 2:53:49Speaker 03

  You Venmo.

• 2:53:49Speaker 02

  But I, uh, anyway, my point is, is this, is that.

• 2:53:55Speaker 02

  If he was president, is that what you don't realize is that when you're under, when you're convicted, you have no Fourth Amendment rights. Once you are charged, you relinquish all your Fourth Amendment rights against search and seizure and you, there's no, you have no Fifth Amendment anymore. You don't have a Fourth Amendment. You don't have the right to, you know, and any space is open to a search and seizure by the government. So even if I was not in prison, at any time, federal agents could walk into my house without a warrant, without any judicial approval or anything. So for instance, you don't think

• 2:54:37Speaker 02

  that if they wanted to make certain that my dad was not critical of the administration, that a ICE agent showing up to my door? I mean, look what they're willing to do to other people right now. And so that was the reason why. But was it good for the country? No, I don't think it was good for the country. And to your point, there's like, do I think that this is all Donald Trump's fault? That there hasn't been like complete overreach on the part of some people in the Democratic Party, or what do you call leftists, or liberals, or whatever? Yeah. I mean, we're, we are all, including myself, culpable. The way that we talk to each other. But the one thing that I'm not gonna do anymore, at least for me, is this. Like, I'll sit down with whoever the fuck I feel like sitting down and talking about it. Just like I used to be able

• 2:55:22Speaker 02

  to sit down with whoever. And it doesn't mean I agree with them. I think fucking Nick Fuentes is fucking out of his mind. But you know what? I want to learn it for myself. Sit down and have a discussion.

• 2:55:33Chris Williamson?

  What did you, what did you learn from sitting down with Nick?

• 2:55:36Speaker 02

  That he doesn't believe half the stuff that he says. He thinks that he talks about all of it like it's a joke, because that's what edgelording was. And I also learned from Nick Fuentes is like a lot of us, Nick Fuentes is frozen in time. Nick Fuentes is still this 18 year old kid that went to Northeastern and was a Republican and wore MAGA hat and had the same experience that you had at Bryn Mawr, but times like 50. Is what a bunch of Northeastern liberals, you know, basically shouted at him, canceled him, told him that he was this. And you know what? In doing so, they created a, they created a star. And then he was adopted by like the Ben

• 2:56:20Speaker 02

  Shapiro's of the world until he, you know, decided that he didn't, that he said some negative things about Israel, and all of a sudden, he was canceled by them. And so you know what he did? He went nuclear. And he found an audience for it. He found an audience for joking about the Holocaust, or, you know, joking about black people, or joking about the, you know, whatever, or saying women shouldn't vote. He doesn't believe any of that shit. But he does realize that it gives him a, a platform by which to talk to people. And in doing so, what he says, if you take the time to listen, a lot of it's true. All the other stuff is really hurtful, and really wrong, and really, really, really, really fucking dangerous. But there's another

• 2:57:05Speaker 02

  piece of it where he says, there's a group of people in this country, huge part of the population of under the age of 35, that not, aren't, they're just dissatisfied. They are angry. And they are, and, and you know what? To them, it's all become a joke. To your point, they've all been blackpilled. Like, what do they, you know what? To what you said, like, I'm not putting my, or maybe you said, is like, I, like, I'm not putting my, my eggs in Zorin Mom Donnie's basket, because all I've been in, from my, from their perspective, is since 2008,

• 2:57:44Speaker 02

  like, Jesus Christ, if you're 20, if you're 35 years old, you know, or say you're 30 years old, you've gone through 2008, where we've never fully recovered from as a country. You, if, if you're a little bit older, you watch the, you know, the, the largest income inequality and wealth gap grow and grow and grow without anybody even remotely saying, this is how we're gonna fix it, other than saying, oh, we're gonna tax the billionaires. Like, because if the billionaires aren't gonna find another way to fucking, you know. My point being is

• 2:58:22Speaker 02

  that people, particularly young people, have become so, I mean, it's not even anger. It's a thing that is much more, I think, insidious. And, and that is indifference. Like indifference to the idea, like, checking out of politics. They say, well, what, politics, politics is all bullshit. Politicians are all, I always say, you may not care about politics, politics cares about you. You know? And so, I don't know. I just think that, that I can only think of it, and maybe I'm myopic in my rage. I know I am. I mean, I really know I am. I mean, I hate him.

• 2:59:06Speaker 02

  And my, my grandmother would say, like, you know, like, you never say that in

• 2:59:11Speaker 03

  But who do you hate?

• 2:59:12Speaker 02

  Trump. I fucking hate him. I hate the way he talks about my dad. I hate the way that he is, the way in which he talks about women. I hate the way in which he is, never can make a joke without, I mean, you, like, have you ever heard him make a joke that's not at somebody else's expense? That is always about, like, you know, making someone feel smaller? I, I, I, I think that leadership matters. And I don't, I, I know that the President of the United States has the capacity, by virtue of the office that they sit in, to, to, to lead. And you can either

• 2:59:52Speaker 02

  use it for good, or you can use it for yourself. And he uses it all the time for himself, whether it's his political self, and whether that may align with a group of, you know, constituents, whatever it is, it's always for him. And I think that that's a, a disease on, on the Constitution.

• 3:00:13Chris Williamson?

  Tell us how you really feel.

• 3:00:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. You don't think Quiet Piggy was funny?

• 3:00:17Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:00:18Speaker 03

  That was crazy.

• 3:00:19Speaker 02

  For crazy, right?

• 3:00:21Speaker 03

  It's, but the problem is, the problem, I'll be honest, the problem is, it's so fucking nuts. And again, if you're a checked out dude, and you're like, it's, it is funny. That's what, you're right, though. Like, if anyone else, if you were sitting with your brother and they were talking, like, Quiet Piggy, you'd be like, bro, what the fuck?

• 3:00:37Speaker 02

  You'd only be like, bro, you'd be like, what the fuck?

• 3:00:40Speaker 03

  But it's one of those things where you're already, and I can attest to this, you know, I'm 40, but I was pretty, by the time I was in like, the time I was like graduating college, I was like, fuck this, I'm not getting a job. The whole thing's bullshit, the whole thing's rigged, it's evil, it's all ruled by people just blowing each other up. I want nothing to do with this shit. And you watch the news, you're like, this is all fucking bullshit. So I had like checked out when I was like 20, I was like, fuck all this stuff. So then you gotta, there's so many people watching the news like that, who were like, I can't, I'll never buy a house, I don't give a fuck, probably won't even get married, everything sucks, I'll be in debt forever. And that's the, they see that and they just go, huh, that's crazy. And then they just go about, you know, their day. Which is sad, that's a sad thing to think about.

• 3:01:18Speaker 02

  Totally agree, yeah. Have you ever done 5MEO, DMT?

• 3:01:22Speaker 00

  Oh, it's the worst.

• 3:01:24Speaker 02

  Really?

• 3:01:24Speaker 00

  I hate, well, I mean, I got it, I got, in those days, you could order it online.

• 3:01:28Speaker 03

  Are you talking about the toad, or just regular?

• 3:01:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, it comes from a toad. I just got the synthetic stuff, smoked it in West Hollywood. I thought I was gonna die.

• 3:01:36Chris Williamson?

  Have you tried it?

• 3:01:37Speaker 02

  What? Yeah, yeah, 5MEO.

• 3:01:39Chris Williamson?

  Did you, have you tried this post rehab? Is this?

• 3:01:42Speaker 02

  No, back in the, the days when I was like, I was looking for any, I mean, I've done it all. I've done ayahuasca and 5MEO. And I'm a real believer as it relates to certain people, and particularly, and, but the reason it made me think about it is the, this guy Chase Hughes, in the way that he talks about it, and he's done these incredible journeys on it, and

• 3:02:06Chris Williamson?

  He's done it IV, right?

• 3:02:08Speaker 02

  He's one of the first people ever to do that. And he's brilliant. I mean, he's brilliant on a whole just level that, but this level like of, anyway, I don't even know why I brought it up.

• 3:02:21Speaker 03

  Well, I wanted, it's a second topic, yes.

• 3:02:24Speaker 02

  Made me think, like, like, there, the, when you come to the determination, the realization that so much of this is just an illusion, you can either choose to, to engage, you know, in the game. Like, if it's all a game, then play the game. Do you know what I mean? Like, play the game. And from my perspective, I've come out this other side, you know, with this incredible liberation and freedom to do the thing, I'm gonna play the game. And I'm gonna play the game first, to, and the only way I know winning the game is, and I know it sounds like Pollyannaish bullshit, but it's purely selfish, purely selfish, is to be of service to other people. And I know,

• 3:03:09Speaker 02

  I really do, I realize that it sounds, it's not in no way heroic, is I've never done anything in my life. And I'm, by the way, I hope I make a shitload of money doing it. You know what I mean? I'm like, I'm not, this isn't, this is because the only thing that I know that has ever worked is not being fucking stuck in my own head. Like, only doing for me. Whether literally, it's doing for Baby Bo, or whether it's doing for my dad, or more than anything, doing for Melissa, my wife. But then, like, the circle widens, and the circle widens. And so I feel like every day that I get up, and if I can just think about that, it's like, little stuff,

• 3:03:53Speaker 02

  like, asking your waiter what their name is. You know how big a deal, you know, in your day, that when somebody recognizes you, and, you know, like, so, if I can connect, on a human level, just with, you know, whether it's the Uber driver, or the flight attendant on the way home, or the TSA agent going through the thing, it's like, I'm playing the game. I don't know. I think part of playing the game is, is like caring.

• 3:04:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, I agree. That's funny, because it does, whenever it's like said out loud, like, I just want to be, I want to serve others. It's one thing to say it, when you do it, it is a pretty profound thing, when you're just like not thinking about yourself all the time.

• 3:04:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:04:33Chris Williamson?

  Well, you're an artist. Matt is a fan of native instruments. So to celebrate seven years of sobriety, I wanted to get you a little present. And this is from one current pipe lover to an ex-pipe lover. This is

• 3:04:50Speaker 03

  It's a flute, it's a native flute.

• 3:04:51Speaker 02

  Is it really?

• 3:04:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, you learn how to play it.

• 3:04:53Speaker 02

  That's amazing.

• 3:05:02Chris Williamson?

  Not in the back?

• 3:05:05Chris Williamson?

  That's for you.

• 3:05:06Speaker 02

  For real?

• 3:05:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's for you.

• 3:05:08Speaker 03

  I christened it.

• 3:05:09Speaker 02

  Yep. Now, by the way, dude, think about this. Think about the level of double entendre.

• 3:05:17Speaker 02

  I got a pipe for Matt. Everyone knows that I use to smoke crack out of a pipe.

• 3:05:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can't smoke crack out of that.

• 3:05:25Speaker 02

  But you cannot smoke crack out of that.

• 3:05:29Speaker 02

  I could.

• 3:05:32Speaker 02

  No, this is beautiful.

• 3:05:32Speaker 03

  It's keep your ring finger on that third hole, and you can't really go wrong with the

• 3:05:36Speaker 02

  This is truly beautiful. Thank you.

• 3:05:38Chris Williamson?

  You're welcome. I appreciate you, boys.

• 3:05:40Speaker 02

  Wait, wait, wait. Am I gonna be able to take this on the plane?

• 3:05:43Chris Williamson?

  Oh, we'll post it, we'll mail it to you.

• 3:05:46Chris Williamson?

  You all rule. I appreciate you.

• 3:05:49Speaker 02

  Hunter Biden stopped in TSA with a giant pipe.

• 3:05:56Speaker 04

  Mr. President, my company tore me of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami.

• 3:06:03Chris Williamson?

  They all keep the blame on me.

• 3:06:05Speaker 04

  Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 3:06:13Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped going? You stall, you freeze in there, that's what?

• 3:06:17Speaker 04

  With great power comes great deniability. I'm not the first daddy. Digger, see the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rigor Dar, under 17 and a minute without parent.