How To Have Better Arguments With Your Partner - The Freemans | Modern Wisdom Podcast 285

Aaron and Jocelyn Freeman are relationship coaches and authors. Success in relationships can be as much to do with dealing with disagreements as finding common ground, so arguing well might actually be an important skill we need to develop. Expect to learn the quick ways to fix an argument, what an argument hangover is, how you can make a disagreement with your partner better before it's even begun, how you can turn conflict into a good thing, why emotional triggers are a danger and much more... Sponsors: Get 20% discount & free shipping on your Lawnmower 3.0 at https://www.manscaped.com/ (use code MODERNWISDOM) Extra Stuff: Buy The Argument Hangover - https://amzn.to/3qtnleE Get Free Bonuses If You Preorder - https://theargumenthangover.com/ Follow The Freemans on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/meet_thefreemans Get my free Ultimate Life Hacks List to 10x your daily productivity → https://chriswillx.com/lifehacks/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #relationships #arguing #love - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  With any relationship, a son or daughter, it could be a friend, a family member, coworker, and then spouse, if there's something you notice in that relationship that you often get triggered by, what you want to do is come to them and say, "Hey, you know what? I realize I often get triggered by you saying X." Now, I know I'm giving that meaning, but it would really help me if we could create an agreement that you wouldn't bring that up when we have an argument.

• 0:28Chris Williamson?

  We're talking about how to have better arguments today. What is the argument hangover?

• 0:33Speaker 00

  Love that, actually. You know, when we say that to anybody, they kind of get the sense. People have had arguments, yes, they've had hangovers too, whether food or alcohol. So the argument hangover specifically would be that period of time between having a disagreement. We talk about a romantic partner, but honestly, this could be with a friend, a family member. And then there's the things that you say and do.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  And then it's the period of time that you feel disconnected, you feel frustrated, you may feel guilty for the things that you said and what you did that has that relationship feel either stalled or just really disconnected. And that can last for a day, two days, weeks, months. It can actually lead to relationships ending. And that argument hangover finally ends when you get it resolved fully emotionally, which some people don't.

• 1:28Chris Williamson?

  That's relationship sobriety, then.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  In a way, right. Well, it's in a way, like, I mean, I know you'll ask some great questions about this, but what my pattern used to be was if things weren't going well in a relationship and conflicts were coming up, sure, we would try and I would do all the yelling and the name-calling and I let my emotions have it be a free-for-all, but then when it just got hard, I'd leave. And sometimes, I think really, the, I think across the world that there's a big conversation about relationships should be mostly good and we don't see a lot of portrayals, especially in media, of like what does healthy conflict look like and how to stay in a relationship even when things get challenging. So people, unfortunately, like you said, will just leave the relationship.

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Or how to leverage that conflict into an opportunity to grow and strengthen that understanding and that relationship.

• 2:20Chris Williamson?

  One of the things I was talking about toward the end of last year is unremarkable depression. So a lot of the time when we see people hit rock bottom, it's a big deal. And there's almost bizarrely a bit of glory attached to it. Perhaps that's the archetypes that we see in media. But you know, when someone has a full blown breakdown, perhaps they get sectioned, perhaps they need to go on to some antipsychotics. But they know like from that bottom position, there is nowhere else to go. Like you have to get better. That is where you go. The concern that I had, this common malaise, this ambient anxiety that people have where life, it vacillates from kind of crap to just about acceptable and then back down again. And you're right, the normal, the unremarkable arguments, I

• 3:05Chris Williamson?

  suppose over time will compound to chip away at confidence in a relationship to the point where death by a thousand cuts occurs divorce.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it can be the small things, but even some of the things that seem like they're small and people would just try to brush under the rug. People miss out on the gold that's inside of that. Like even we say to people, you're not upset about the dishes. You're not upset about the socks. You're not even upset really about finances. Because sometimes couples argue about money. It's something underneath that that's getting triggered and perhaps it's coming from your past. And so like what you said, even though they're unremarkable, people still just don't even find the bigger lesson that's available to them. They don't see relationships as the place to transform. You were talking right before we started, right about self-development and really self-actualization, becoming the

• 3:55Speaker 02

  best you. And relationships are the most rapid, intense way you can access that. But people don't look at conflicts as really the place for that to even get revealed.

• 4:08Chris Williamson?

  Is that because we presume that relationships should just be smooth sailing? And if there's arguments, then that means problem. And if there's problem, then there's Tinder on my phone and you know, 3.5 billion of the people of the gender that I'm attracted to out there, I'll just crack on.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Right, we don't like being disagreed with, right? So the moment that our partner threatens our ego and our ego gets triggered, you're disagreeing with me, you're not getting my perspective. And also, you know, people do say things that are damaging in times of conflict. You, you read about parts of the book and we talk about emotional triggers. And that's really what we want to rewrite the script on is conflict, especially healthy conflict, can be a good thing for your relationship. And if we can have couples embrace conflict in a new way, I really think breakups would decrease, divorces would decrease. And overall, there'd be more happiness in relationships.

• 5:00Speaker 00

  I mean, we live, we do live in a society with so much comfort, right? So there's a certain level of avoiding anything at all that seems uncomfortable because of the houses we live in, temperature controlled. We have food at our fingertips, we have Amazon Prime, they'll bring anything to our doorstep immediately. So we do live in a very, you know, comfortable society. Of course, that quick hit of dopamine. And so we don't really have the level of acceptance or allowance to go into the uncomfortable defined what might be in there.

• 5:31Chris Williamson?

  I wonder whether there is, thinking about me, I try and put myself into situations of discomfort, sometimes voluntarily, sometimes involuntarily by accident, um, quite regularly. But I don't see discomfort in a relationship as an area for growth. That's a paradigm that I would need to step into. So hopefully today you can deliver that red pill. What are the outdated beliefs about conflict?

• 5:56Speaker 02

  Hmm, well, even the one you just touched on. Exactly. What you just touched on is even one that it's bad and that I should instead change the partner. So the moment things aren't going well, you talked about like the uncomfortable and people lean away from that. Now, of course, if there's a line where a relationship just isn't aligned, right? But if there's alignment in the relationship, you have a shared vision, you have a shared, you know, values, you actually desire the same type of relationship. And some, that's a lot of times where people need to start. What kind of relationship do we even want to build towards? So if you align in that way, then one of the outdated beliefs is that conflict shouldn't be happening.

• 6:37Speaker 02

  And that if we do argue and we get triggered, I mean, my triggers, if he judged me based on how I showed up when I was triggered and quote unquote, gave up on me, I wouldn't get to transform to be the person that I am now. And so I think just, yeah, one of the outdated beliefs being it shouldn't be happening.

• 6:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, or you know, rocking the boat, you know, a similar one, bringing up something more proactively because it is going to bring up a conflict. And the analogy here, you know, really to your point, why does this seem to be the paradigm right now in romantic or or any relationship? Is because the way we see it and the very first response, even within our own mind, our first thought and then our following actions are more like a boxing match. So it's like the bell rings and now you're going against that person. Now, what we want to invite especially couples into is that you can take your initial actions, your initial thoughts and following actions to get yourself on the same side, more like a

• 7:39Speaker 00

  basketball team or a football team that faces an opponent, but they do it as a team. Now, all of a sudden, as a team, you're looking at how do we overcome this challenge? How do we see this challenge? As what it could provide for us to grow, to strengthen, to become a better team, to win the game, to win the championship. So if you can take the steps to first stay on the same team, looking at the challenge rather than coming at it like a boxing match, you've changed the game.

• 8:07Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely. Team is the word that I had in my head and it's one that I've been thinking about a lot recently as well. I was a bit of a bastard, I guess, through my twenties with girlfriends. I wasn't a particularly good boyfriend, like just classic young lad that was a dick. Um, and there is something that's happened over the last five years and I really, really hope that all of the people that I care about that listen to the show and everyone else as well that I don't care about, uh, that they can have that same transformation because like I can't wait to settle down, wife, dogs, kids, because I know all of the work that I've done and the time that I've spent on myself. I want to make them better, but I don't think. That I would have had that mindset five years ago.

• 8:51Chris Williamson?

  And I can also see another world in which I would have never moved from being that person to being the person that I am now. Much more cognizant around my emotions, much more aware of the texture of my own mind, much more understanding of other people and the vicissitudes that they're going to go through in life. Right?

• 9:10Chris Williamson?

  How much of the development of a relationship is on the individual? And how much is a combined effort between the partners?

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh. Well, I'd say it's a hundred, a hundred. It's a hundred percent both, right? It's and it has been. So I started self-development before Aaron and I ended a previous relationship that interestingly, he had all the things I'd check off from a superficial level. You know, all the things we would put on a dating app, you know, what kind of career? They're funny, they like to exercise, all the, oh, they like this kind of music. So from a superficial level, they met all those criteria. But there's a thing that needs to be added to dating apps. Are you open to self-development? And that was the big thing that we didn't align on. He did blame me and project things on to me that were really things for him to look at. So, okay, that relationship wasn't aligned.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  He wasn't even willing to really look at that. Now, I knew what I wanted. I wanted, yes, all the fun superficial things because we're human beings and we like those things. But I wanted someone who was open to self-development. Now, did that mean the moment I met Aaron, he was like, yeah, sign me up for every seminar you're attending? No, he was like, what's self-development? What? I went to college. Is that what you mean? And it took some time, which would be another story.

• 10:26Chris Williamson?

  Or university over there.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, university over there. But basically, we, within our relationship, look at everything as an op, like he mirrors things to me. So he is showing things that are within myself. And so we have created a relationship, and it took years to do this, where we see everything as something we can learn about ourselves. And at the same time, some think there's maybe just a dynamic that's not working. So we're playing off of each other. And what I do triggers this and back and forth. So then, yes, we look internally, but we also, and this is what I think a lot of people don't even know is available. We learned relationship skills.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  And that's really what we teach. And so we aim to learn and practice relationship skills together so that we aren't constantly triggering each other and just being like, we'll work on you. Like, that's not what you want to do, right?

• 11:19Chris Williamson?

  How can you?

• 11:19Speaker 00

  Handle yourself and then come back to me.

• 11:21Chris Williamson?

  How can you make sure that the partner you're about to get into a relationship with has the capacity for growth in that way? Either an interest, the ability to get over their own inertia, the ability to not be insulted? Like, do you just say on your first date, do you just force them to read Carol Dweck? Like, is that the solution? You just say, right, have you read Carol Dweck? If you have, then we can go out together. If you haven't, then, sorry, this isn't going to work.

• 11:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, I really wasn't maybe all that open or that all that far along, right? I had a point that had math equations in it. So to your point, I think, you know, when we get down to the point of what is life really about? It's about evolution of who you are as a person. And you might say, your highest self, your spirit's own evolution. So if that's the purpose, then everyone's on that path. And it's just going to be, what step are you on? So I think just seeing that a partner is open to realizing that that is really the purpose, and then taking whatever step for them. So Jocelyn invited me to do a personal development seminar, which I was open to, right?

• 12:30Speaker 00

  I wasn't yet open to reading, like, let's say, Wayne Dyer or Neville Goddard about consciousness yet. I am today. So I think to your point, you can't judge someone's path from the beginning, or how fast they'll go. And they might start off slow and go faster in some point in the middle and in relationships. You know, your partner might be in a different speed, but you know, you get on the boat together. So I think it's just that initial willingness to maybe say to a partner, Where do you see you would like to grow? And I think just getting on that path of progress and evolution in whatever area is important to them. I think that always evolves to either spirituality, maybe into professional. And I think just being on the path of progression is really what you're looking for.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  If I can share a story that will just add on to that because I couldn't take him from zero to 100. I couldn't be like, you need to read these 10 books and come to these three seminars. So I really looked for, to your question, I looked at him, is he open to the conversations? And so I remember this distinct dinner date. It was probably like even our fourth date. And at the time, he went to bars and clubs a lot and drank a lot. Like there was no self-development on the weekends for him, it was bars. And we were at dinner and he's like, oh, do you want to go, my friends? We have a table and all these things. And I just went, no. And he's like, what do you mean, no? And I said, well, that's not what I desire to do on my Friday night.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  And so then he, he really got curious about, well, maybe I don't really like to go that much. Why am I going? And it started this whole conversation about how he was doing it because that's what his friends do. And he just thinks that that's what he's, he's keeping his promise by going. And so then we had this conversation about integrity and I kind of shared with him things I had learned. And he was open to it. And that's what I was looking for, was that he was open to those kind of conversations.

• 14:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I don't know what it's like. I've spent a lot of time around a variety of different types of people. Not everyone's growth minded, some people are more into it than others.

• 14:33Chris Williamson?

  But it would be a scary situation for me to get five years into a relationship with someone and find out that they don't have that growth mindset. Because it's going to make everything so much harder and.

• 14:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, those are the ones I'm really big into revisiting traditions at the moment. I think that we've cast off a lot of wisdom that we've accrued over the last sort of 2,000 to 5,000 years as a civilization. And I'm not, I want people to try and make it work. I don't want people to divorce. I want them to stick together. I want the family to work and all this sort of stuff. But yeah, there are some challenges that are un-get-buyable sadly. What are emotional triggers? Let's talk about them. You've mentioned it a couple of times already.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  Well, even to that point, right? Like, relationships are going to reveal your triggers. Whether you're with the perfect partner who matches all the things you want, there will be things that happen within the relationship that trigger you, which we would describe as like somebody poking a sensitive spot. Now, most people just have their triggered reaction, right? And like, they're angry, they're sad, you shouldn't have done that. I wouldn't feel this way if you didn't do that. And so they make it about the other person. When people have awareness about emotional triggers, it's really poking something inside that wants to be looked at. Okay, wow, where'd that come from? Why did that trigger something in me?

• 15:58Speaker 02

  And if people, instead of going outside, all about you, and looked inwards, there'd be something really powerful that could be shown. Anything more you'd add?

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, and the steps of what it looks like is there is a triggered event. And this can happen again in any relationship. There's, in this case with my partner, expression on the face, a specific word, maybe swearing, bringing up the past, some action, even a tone. And that in and of itself, as you probably shared lots of times with your audience, doesn't inherently have any meaning. But it's a trigger because that event elicits some emotion within you. And that, maybe it reminds you of some memory that your mom or dad said to you, or in that moment, you make it mean something. So there's some emotion that gets elicited. And then the main problem is that emotion.

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Creates an amygdala hijack. Essentially, you're unaware of the action that you then take. And that's really sort of the problem with the argument hangover is because you do more damage and you extend the argument hangover because you're unconscious of the then triggered behavior that you take automatically. Don't have to even think about it.

• 17:15Chris Williamson?

  I had Donald Robertson, who's a CBT-trained Stoic philosopher. So this guy's got the new age and the old age all combined together. And he was talking about how much our judgment is impaired when we're angry.

• 17:30Chris Williamson?

  And he said that anger is one of the worst impacts that we can have on our judgment. And I'm going to guess that one of the most common emotions that people find when they get emotionally triggered is anger.

• 17:42Speaker 02

  Oh, it's intoxicating. It releases chemicals in your body and you're not really thinking straight. However, people can train themselves to interrupt it. So it is possible to not do the damage that's normally caused by the triggered behaviors. And it takes practice, just like everything that you teach. You can't just learn something in a book and then be like, oh, I tried it one day and it didn't work. Right? It's practice, months and years. And to your point, right? Like if a couple really is aligned and they even think they're perfect for each other and they both do self-development. We work with a lot of couples who've done years of self-development and they're like, my partner still triggers me. So are they not the right person then?

• 18:23Speaker 02

  No, that means it's pointing to something within you to look at and go at where is this in the past? And that's really where, I mean, we just really have transformed.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's powerful in any relationship then. We were talking earlier about you either approach it as a boxing match or being a football team, right? Approaching a game or a match. So in those moments, if someone, your friend, a family member comes to you and they're triggered, rather than getting so defensive and trying to stop their pattern or behavior, don't speak to me that way. If you could just pause and say, hey, you know, it seems like you're triggered. That's how you start to make that shift from a boxing match to being on the same team. You know, in a, in a match together is, hey, seems like you're triggered. Is that right? What emotion is there for you? So you've already stopped the pattern for them. And now you're helping them be introspective of what is the emotion?

• 19:20Speaker 00

  Ideally, if you can get to what the event was. And then not just apologize, I'm so sorry I did that to make you feel that way. The self-realization then says, what meaning did I give to that event? That caused that within me, not trying to get your partner to now stop doing all of the triggering events so that you don't get triggered.

• 19:39Chris Williamson?

  Have you seen Chris Voss's work? Have you read much of that stuff? Yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  We're in a mastermind with him.

• 19:45Chris Williamson?

  Amazing. So.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's amazing.

• 19:47Chris Williamson?

  He came on the show a couple of months ago and obviously he's got that. Um, it seems like there's something on your mind. It seems like there's something on your mind. It feels like there's something that you need to talk about. Like that. And you don't realize until you speak to someone like him, who's obviously an absolute elite of communication. You don't realize just how disarming that sentence is.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 20:11Chris Williamson?

  It seems like there's something on your mind and you just realize like it's not judgmental. It's not even what's wrong. Like what's wrong has, everyone's had that asked by a partner. And there's, there is a fair bit of baggage that kind of comes along with that. Like, it seems like there's something on your mind and you just go like, uh, and you just seem to open up. It's such a softening sentence.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  It really is.

• 20:32Speaker 00

  It's powerful that you bring that up too, because one thing we talk about in our book is, and you talk about archetypes. Well, we have four communication personality types of you and your partner, which then leads to 10 different dynamics. But often a, an assertive partner would be with a more reserved partner. So maybe one that's not speaking up as much. And so this conversation can be, well, that's great, but my partner doesn't share. So to your point, Chris Voss has a technique called mirroring. And so for the reserve partners, if you mirror, and then for those of you that haven't read the book, if you just repeat the last one to three words that your partner says, then for instance, maybe they come to you and say, "I can't believe you did that."

• 21:18Speaker 00

  Did that? And you raise the inflection of your voice, that person is gonna basically automatically take it deeper. So it's a powerful place though, for those that are assertive and reserved, to use this mirroring to help your partner go a little bit deeper with it.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Well, and to that point, and I love that Chris Voss, like we have so much aligned with him, is communication, because I'm sure so many people in relationships identify, communication is the biggest challenge. I mean, we've done over forty-four couples workshops, and the number one reason couples attend is communication, communication. But here's what's interesting, and I'm sure you might run into this or already have in your dating experiences. Even if you meet someone who's doing self-development, and they're like, "Yeah, I'm really working on my communication." They get frustrated, like, "I don't think you're, that's really working on your communication." Like, "The way you're doing it is not right." And so then they can kind of judge the way they're communicating. So we say, "Communication is not one size fits all."

• 22:16Speaker 02

  And that's why we created the four communication personality types, because different approaches are needed for different types, different tempos, different, uh, how much time each person needs to process. So I'd say for those of, who are similar to you, who are wanting to attract that great partner, is to realize that they still might be working on being a great communicator. It might not just look exactly like you.

• 22:41Chris Williamson?

  What are the different types and how should people utilize them?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so there are, it's in a four quadrants, basically, like a normal two by two grid, right? And you fall into one of the four. So there's assertive inflexible, assertive flexible, reserved inflexible, and reserved flexible. So assertiveness to reserve, some people go, "Oh, I'm assertive, because I talk a lot." That's not true assertiveness in the sense that we mean. Assertiveness is the openness and willingness to share your thoughts, needs, emotions, proactively. So not in a reactive manner, once you're already upset. It's asserting yourself ahead of time before it's even become a challenge. More reserved people, it doesn't mean that they never will open up. It's more so that they usually take more time to process their thoughts and emotions.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  They need to be asked in a different way. They need it to even not be just sitting kind of with all the attention on them. So that's the assertive to reserve scale. And then flexibility to inflexibility measures how open and willing you are to adjust your perspective, your behaviors, within the relationship, based on what's needed in that moment. Like different seasons, different seasons of a relationship, kind of in a way, call for different perspectives and behaviors. And so that's flexibility to inflexibility.

• 24:01Chris Williamson?

  And what does that mean for people? How should they utilize those with regards to their communication?

• 24:08Speaker 02

  Well, let's do our example of our two types.

• 24:11Speaker 00

  Well, so Jocelyn, Jocelyn is, and when we talk about like assertive inflexible, you could probably fall into a different type in a work setting or a family and friends, and even different aspects of your romantic relationship. So we have people look at when you are triggered, when you have emotion come up, what do you sort of default to? So Jocelyn's really is assertive inflexible, where mine is reserved inflexible, to where if Jocelyn immediately shares something that, and I get defensive, I'm going to more so shut down, I'm going to pretty much like stop talking. If we're driving in the car, I might look out the window.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  And though I felt like that was better than reacting back, raising my voice, saying whatever came to my mind. I initially thought that was better, but here it comes to find out Jocelyn feels pushed away. She feels isolated and it disconnects us, it separates us. So what I learned for me being a reserve type is I don't have to become assertive, but I want to at least engage into the conversation by saying something to Jocelyn like, "Hey Jocelyn, I'm realizing I'm triggered and I'd like a few minutes to process my emotions. You know, can we come back to this in five minutes?" So I'm not feeling pressured by Jocelyn to stay in the conversation, say what I'm feeling,

• 25:35Speaker 00

  talk before I'm ready, but I need to start to share where I'm at so that we can stay engaged into a conversation and come back to it at a time that's going to be more suited for a reserved.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  And then on the assertive partner, one of the mistakes I used to make being with a reserve partner was if I want to talk about it, I'm gonna bring it up right now. And that would blindside him and because he needs more time to process his thoughts and emotions, he would shut down, which would then frustrate me. So then I'd overcompensate even more and it would then become this power struggle and turn into a disagreement. So now what I do, this is just one of the ways it's impactful, is I give him a heads up if there's something we're going to talk about that's actually important. I mean, and I know it seems like it's so simple, but it makes all the difference if we're going to talk about having kids. Instead of me blindsiding him on a hike, "Hey, I'd like to talk about starting a family and I know you like to think about things ahead

• 26:31Speaker 02

  of time. Would you feel up for discussing it on our hike this weekend?" Anything, it could be finances, it could be your intimacy. Even if I want to talk about our relationship, I don't say, "Hey, we need to talk right now about something that happened." I give him a heads up about it and hasn't it made a difference?

• 26:48Speaker 00

  Totally, yeah. I don't feel blindsided. When I feel blindsided, what else is there for me to do except be defensive? So we're already again in the boxing match rather than being on the same team.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  Which type do you think you fall into? The assertive inflexible, assertive flexible, reserved inflexible, or reserved flexible?

• 27:05Chris Williamson?

  I'd say probably assertive inflexible.

• 27:08Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 27:09Chris Williamson?

  Although if any of my exes are watching, then just comment below and let me know. That'll be interesting. They're not going to be watching. One of the things that I've been interested in is

• 27:20Chris Williamson?

  How much individuals should share in the context of couple dialogue? So I understand that becoming emotionally triggered with things and opening up about the way that you feel and also warning someone that something's going to come up and all the rest of it. There has to be a glass ceiling on how much you can break the fourth wall around the inner workings of your own mind. And speaking from personal experience, when I feel like I have nothing left to find out about the person, that there's nothing new and nothing spontaneous occurring. And also the fact that a lot of what goes on within our heads, we may say, here's a

• 28:02Chris Williamson?

  thing that I'm feeling, but 10 minutes later or 15 minutes later, it'd be like, yeah, actually that just dissipated. I probably shouldn't have brought that up. Is the, how can people know when they're oversharing essentially? You know, they might think, right, relationship skills, brilliant. Justin and Aaron have said, I'm going to develop my relationship skills. How do they not overshare?

• 28:20Speaker 02

  Hmm. So what I'm hearing in that is in a way like, do I need to share every thought and emotion that I have? It's an interesting question. What we would really do, because we have practices where even though we are so open in our communication, every single morning, we have time just with ourselves. So we meditate, we journal, this is after exercise, and we process a lot of what's there. Now, do we share every single thought? No, I don't think so. I think if it's actually important, of course, a series of questions that you may have seen that have you kind of clarify, is this something actually important to me versus is this a blip? You know, we would call it, is it just a blip moment? So there's some great questions to kind of be able to reflect.

• 29:03Speaker 02

  So if it isn't a blip, meaning it really isn't that significant, it was just a momentary thing, and it's actually important, we will share it. But we definitely reflect before we share a lot with each other. Like, we really have worked to not just reactively bring something up in the heat of a moment. What would you say?

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Well, I think so far in this conversation, talking about emotional triggers, it can seem like we're talking about things from the past, you know, healing and evolving from there. But now we're missing, basically, the point of being in a relationship is to create, to imagine the future that isn't yet, that we are stepping into and creating by being in a relationship. So I think to your point, do I need to share every emotion and feeling? At some point, you've really cleared up the past. So now you're free to create anything you want. You know, the nature of consciousness, the nature of being alive, it's infinite. So when we talk about a space of infinite possibilities, you can get excitement, you can be, have high anticipation.

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Do we want to travel? What kind of experiences do we want to have? Do we want to be influential? Do we want to start a business, start a family? You know, now you're into the imagination of the whole purpose of why you're together. And, you know, looking at consciousness, our outer world is actually a reflection of our inner world, of what we are imagining, what we are already feeling as already being done. That's a really powerful, exciting conversation to be imagining with your partner, which, once you clear up the past, that's where we want people to live all the time.

• 30:39Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely. I mean, very much our thoughts shape the world around us. We don't exist in the world. We exist in the mental model that our brain has constructed of the world. And the more baggage and extra bits that you don't need, the more drag is on that mental model, the more cognitive biases you have, the less rationality, the less balance, all that sort of stuff. Um, so I mean, that, that sounds like a wonderful situation to be in. But I imagine that you both need to work through an awful lot before you get there. And inevitably, that's going to involve going through conflict. So how can you turn that conflict into a good thing?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  I love that because we didn't come to each other, as you heard, like all shiny.

• 31:18Chris Williamson?

  Ready made.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  I transformed everything, right? And maybe you will show up for a partner that way, but I would bet you that there'd be new things that come up for you.

• 31:28Chris Williamson?

  I'm perfect. Don't worry about that.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  I know. You've already worked through it all. So conflict, yes, we see that as something that really is showing something inside of us. And we also, so we have this whole five hour process to truly reconcile after a conflict because just saying I'm sorry is not enough. It doesn't truly repair things afterwards. And one of the five Rs that I think is important to your question is the fifth R, which is to reconcile the conflict as an opportunity together. So we actually just had a session with a couple right before this and there was something that came up between them the last couple of weeks. And how she remembered it was that was a bummer, that was frustrating, it got us off course, slowed our momentum, we were doing so well before.

• 32:16Speaker 02

  And there was a lot of discouraged feeling in that. And so we said, okay, let's change the way you remember it. Let's reconcile the situation as an opportunity. And I'm telling you, it's totally different. After our disagreements, we always go, great, what did we learn about ourselves as individuals? What did we learn about our relationship and what our relationship needs? Because you may or may not have heard this before, but we see our relationship as a separate entity from who we are. So after that conflict, what did we now learn our relationship needs? And then also, how are we better? How are we stronger? And when we change the way we remember it, we actually saw the possibility that was

• 33:01Speaker 02

  available. Conflicts aren't a problem. They really create a whole new possibility.

• 33:07Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting and also ties in with a lot of what I believe around the way that we act as humans. Like, the fact is that nothing is really good or bad. It's all just a learning experience. And if you lean into the discomfort as a feature of life, not a bug, you are going to encounter things that are going to go wrong. You're going to encounter catastrophe, both chosen and unchosen, both by your doings and by other people's doings. And the only way that you really can go through that is to think, okay, what did I learn from that? And it's one of the beauties of trying to cultivate curiosity, that if you're, if you're interested in what's coming next, you're very rarely scared about what's going to happen. You're just constantly thinking, oh, how interesting, isn't this like even the level

• 33:52Chris Williamson?

  of equanimity that I think we all should aspire to get toward is that when you sense an emotion, you don't attach yourself to the emotion, but you question, wow, how interesting that I'm feeling this. Why? Isn't that cool? Like, isn't the sensation of nervousness? I've got this sensation in my stomach and I can feel myself getting hot up towards my cheeks and, you know, all of the different things that you feel. But it takes an awful lot of work to get there, as you say. I also think as well, the reconciliation thing ties in with the peak end rule. Are you familiar with this from psychology? So Ben Hardy is a mutual, a mutual friend of ours. He talks about this. So the peak end effect is a Daniel Kahneman study. And what they realized was that the two biggest retainers in terms of

• 34:36Chris Williamson?

  memory from any event are the most emotionally intense at the end. So they put people through endoscopies, which are quite uncomfortable, where you get a camera inside of you. And they were able to give people a little roller where they could rate out of 10 how much pain they were in. And then they asked them to retrospectively look at how much pain they had been in after the event. So during the event, they're moving this camera around. And basically, the more movement equates to more discomfort. So they have two things, two controls that they can work out fairly easily, like, look, this is movement which should equal pain. In one of them, the pain went to a higher peak, but lasted for longer

• 35:18Chris Williamson?

  and then dipped down at the end. And in the other one, it was fairly flat and peaked and then tailed off and sort of finished as soon as it was done. What they found was that in the version, the iteration of the study, where people had had the procedure elongated. But the elongation was at a much lower level. They retrospectively classified it as being lower pain, even though they've been under a higher peak and a longer amount of time. And one of the weird things that they talk about from this is that if you have a child who's going in for an operation, one of the most compassionate things that you can do, especially something like the dentist, that's going to be perhaps uncomfortable.

• 36:00Chris Williamson?

  One of the most compassionate things that you can do is to try and extend the procedure out so that the end of the peak end rule has this low discomfort. Because that sort of thing is what can impact children growing up into adulthood, being, having a fear of the dentist for the rest of their lives. And when you think about, okay, retrospectively, I'm going to look back on this argument. What is the last thing that I'm going to remember from this argument? Is it doors slamming and me walking out, going out of the house? That perhaps might even be the peak as well. Or is it going to be us going, look, this is something that we need to work together on, that's, blah, blah, blah, candles in a bath and whatever it might be.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  And it might, I love that. And that was such a great depiction of that principle and correlating it to arguments. And what I'll say for some people, because I don't want people to think, oh, wow, it's going to take us a while to get to the point where we're reconciling this within the conflict itself. Sometimes it's a separate moment. Like sometimes there might be, especially for the peak, maybe you both get triggered and you're saying and doing things that aren't constructive. So you're like, okay, let's call a timeout. Then you take a break. And what we'd say is don't let the break be too, too long, though. Sometimes people will let it be days before they've really come back together and they're kind of giving each other the one word answers and they're just getting by. And so the reconciliation might be an hour later.

• 37:24Speaker 02

  Like, there's nothing wrong with, sometimes people go, no, let's solve this right now. We are not stopping this conversation until this is complete. And that might push someone, especially a reserved partner. They need to scale back and go on their own. They silently process. Assertive people can usually talk it out and Process through their thoughts by being heard, but a reserve partner mostly needs a moment to reflect and what am I feeling? And so that can push a partner if you're trying to be like, no, we need to solve it right now. But to your point, yes, and it just might be a conversation like an hour later.

• 38:01Chris Williamson?

  Well, remember as well, just how much our judgment is skewed by being angry. Like even just allowing yourself to dial down from the peak of that anger would probably be a pretty good idea. So what about, let's talk about before conflict. Obviously, the best thing to do presumably would be to not have arguments or to try and limit the conflicts that we do have. But if it's going to happen, what can we do before we have a conflict?

• 38:27Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, go ahead.

• 38:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, to that point, it's not necessarily the conflict, right? It's again, and how we see it, we would say the goal would be to shorten the argument hangover and keep it from escalating to the levels of either doing more damage or just pitting you against each other. So just again, going to the sports analogy, it's like, well, maybe we'll be better if we have less conflicts, meaning we have less tough matches. But that's just not the case. The tougher matches you have with an opponent, the better that you get. So I wouldn't necessarily say it's about reducing the conflict as much as those things that I had just mentioned. And ways you can do that, it's so simple, but just having agreements. So we'll link

• 39:10Speaker 00

  back to the emotional triggers. Again, with any relationship, it could be a son or daughter, it could be a friend, another family member, family member, coworker, and then spouse. If there's something you notice in that relationship, you often get triggered by, what you want to do is come to them and say, hey, you know what? I realize I often get triggered by you saying X. Now, I know I'm giving that meaning, but it would really help me if we could create an agreement that you wouldn't bring that up when we have an argument. And then just pick like four of these, because I think four is reasonable, there's not too many to remember. And then when that argument happens, you can remind each other of the agreements

• 39:55Speaker 00

  that you had. This will keep it from escalating, doing more damage, or pitting you against each other, which would ultimately lengthen that argument hangover. And it will make it easier for you to reconcile the conflict into the opportunity for strength, for understanding.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  You know, going back to Chris Lawson, empathy, it's all a game of empathy. And the more we can understand one another, just the better connections we have with life.

• 40:22Chris Williamson?

  What are some of the examples of things that people might say they don't want to be brought up?

• 40:28Speaker 02

  Well, so the agreements can really be, you know, based on what your triggered behaviors are. So I had a tendency of yelling and wanting to bring up the past a lot. Oh, this is exactly like this and I need to connect all the dots. So we have an agreement of no raising our voice. So actually, the moment that we start to raise our voice, we remind each other, hey, that's not constructive here. And then also no bringing up the past is one. We also cannot do any name calling and also.

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so for the reserved.

• 41:01Speaker 00

  The reserved, I noticed that to really benefit both of us, I'm going to agree not to shut down and like say nothing. You know, remove my attention or energy from that conversation.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Leaving the room.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  And in with that would be also like turning my back and just leaving more and more obvious one. But for me, it's really speaking up and just saying either I'm triggered or I'm feeling something and making some sort of request. So simply put, the agreement for me is not to shut down.

• 41:33Chris Williamson?

  What about arguments? We're in the argument. How can we have better arguments?

• 41:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, so now you're in the during, which you, again, you're a human being. So no matter how much conscious work you do, your partner might trigger you. So what I would do besides what we talked about with the agreements, if you're already in that disagreement is to learn how to be a better listener. And what unfortunately people do is when their partner is triggered, they're really just listening to the superficial answers that their partner is giving. The literal words, and you may have seen in our book, we have three columns. What it looks like to not be listening at all, what it is to just hear, and then what is truly listening. So not hearing at all would be that he shares an emotion. So we're in an argument and he says, make up a statement here.

• 42:21Speaker 00

  I can't believe you just said that.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  Well, I didn't just say that. You're totally misunderstanding.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  That's even an agreement. I can't believe you just broke that agreement.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  So, I wasn't listening. I basically wasn't listening at all, right? I dismissed. So, not listening at all is being dismissive, invalidating. That's not correct.

• 42:37Speaker 00

  You're just pretty much listening to that voice in your head of what you agree with, what you don't agree with, what you can justify, evidence that you have.

• 42:45Speaker 02

  So then if I were to take that same statement that he said and actually, or only hear, I'd be like, no, that's, but that's not what I said. So I didn't react as much, but I'm like, saying, no, that's not true. So I only listened to the words. If I was truly listening, I could say back, oh, did something I say hurt you? So, listening is about how can I empathize? I'm not just listening to the literal words my partner is saying. I'm listening for the emotion they're trying to communicate. Because our partner will often say things that seem like they're just logical, but there's some emotion that's trying to be communicated right underneath it. But we aren't trained to be good listeners. We're really only trained to be hearers.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  And this is what really, I think I worked on a lot, was realizing that listening is not a passive activity. You're not just automatically listening to your partner. Even in times of conflict, you likely are hearing things, but it's going through your filter. And it's going through the, do I agree? Do I disagree? Do I need to defend myself? That whole filter. Truly listening takes so much attention, so much, like, awareness and presence. And most people don't even practice that. Like, how can I listen so purposefully right now that I'm actually hearing the emotion that's being conveyed?

• 44:08Speaker 00

  Further, that you, empathy, like Chris Voss would say, empathy is feeling, well, technically sympathy is feeling with them. Empathy is actually feeling. In them, which whole other conversation, but you're actually feeling what they're feeling, saying, wow, it really sounds like you're upset. It sounds like you're really angry. You know, tell me more about that. It's really kind of like getting to the black swan, as Chris would say.

• 44:32Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. What about people who are passive aggressive? This is me speaking from personal experience. Not as the passive aggressive one, at least I don't think I am. But that triggers in me passive aggressiveness, triggers in me something from the seventh circle of Dante's hell. And also seems to be a little bit of a catchall for stopping productive conversation. Because it's both dismissive but aggressive. It's not engaging, but it's also kind of leaving. It's like curling a turd out in the middle of the room and then leaving it there and being like, this is just what I'm going to leave you with. Have you got any strategies for how people can deal with a passive aggressive partner?

• 45:17Speaker 00

  Well, one quick thing before you go. It's just great to identify that's most likely from a reserved type of partner. So just even categorizing yourself into the archetype, reserves, probably inflexibles, those that have not been sharing, you've got something built up. It's wanting to get expressed, but because you're more reserved, it's going to be like, I'm just going to leave that on the floor and then you deal with that.

• 45:43Speaker 02

  So of course, there is the partner that is passive aggressive. And then in a calm state, bringing it up to them and being like, hey, I noticed there's this pattern that happens. Is that something you're open to looking at? Right? So that person would ideally be open to looking at where that being passive aggressive comes from. Then there's to what you said, if you're the one that's with the passive aggressive partner, then what you could say is, hey, it sounds like there's actually something else you want to communicate. And you didn't say what you really would like to share. I'd love to know that. So we can, especially if our partner is trying to change a pattern. And that's the big thing. I get messages all the time from people like, "My partner's really trying to change the pattern. How can I continue to be patient?

• 46:27Speaker 02

  How can I continue?" But, and that's what it takes, right? If they're actively working on changing the pattern, we want to hold space for them. We want to have the patience for them. So it's like, hey, "That pattern thing, you know, is coming up again, but I do want to know what you truly mean. So please share with me." And hopefully that change in reaction will kind of snap them into like, "Whoa, I wasn't even aware I did that." Because it's so unconscious. It's a protection mechanism. Maybe they grew up in a household where it wasn't safe for them to share their emotions. Maybe that's all they saw their mom or dad do. And so I'm sure they're not sitting there going, "I want to be passive aggressive right now." Right? That's not really a conscious choice a lot of times.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  So you want to even share to them in a loving way that you observed it. And then if you change your reaction to them, it can change the whole pattern between the two of you.

• 47:21Chris Williamson?

  I imagine the "it seems like" from Chris would be another sort of great way to try and elicit a response.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. "It seems like there's something else that you'd like to say right now. I'd love to know what that is."

• 47:33Chris Williamson?

  That's the master key. That's the cheat code for people who are passive aggressive, for anyone that's listening. What about afterwards? How can we, how can we make the, after an argument, the hangover period actually be reduced once it's happened?

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, so in the post-conflict stage, we do have the five Rs, which would take more time to go through all five of them. And I did tell you the reconcile one. I would say, because it's really, the first two steps are on your own so that you can reflect and really see where you played a part in it. But to your question, I think the one I want to focus on is actually the third R, which is to reconnect. And this is, this is what's, no, the third one.

• 48:12Chris Williamson?

  The fourth.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  Okay. On argument. Over our own book. So.

• 48:20Speaker 00

  Oh no, you're right.

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Oh, see?

• 48:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, fourth is to.

• 48:23Chris Williamson?

  We've just seen it, we've just seen it play out in front of us here.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  I was actually going to let it go, though. Did you notice where I didn't fight for it? I just was like, "It's not that important. It's okay."

• 48:34Speaker 00

  I know he's wrong, anyway.

• 48:37Speaker 02

  So I didn't have my ego didn't flare up.

• 48:39Speaker 00

  No need for me to hold this. I know I'm right.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  The ego was tame just now. So the third R being reconnect. What's challenging about this one is that especially if there was more damage done during the disagreement, our ego does want to stay distant. It wants to protect itself and you need to come to me and it will it will tolerate distance, physical and emotional for days. I mean, we've talked to couples that are married with kids and they're tolerating weeks of distance. They're letting that simmer in their house. And so the third R being reconnect is to reconnect faster. Don't let it drag on. And you might not be full blown, ready to be intimate physically and sexually,

• 49:23Speaker 02

  but tell them, you know, a pat on the back, hey, I do want to reconnect. I care about you. I love you. We're going to resolve this. I'm still reflecting and I maybe still need some more time, but I'm letting him know I'm still on the team. And I'm making the physical touch, which reminds him that I love him. And so that reconnect stage is challenging, but so important.

• 49:50Chris Williamson?

  I was thinking about how challenging that may be for people with regards to getting over their own ego. I don't want to be the first one to make the move. Should it be a, should it be a case of you being cognizant when the other partner does that? Should it be a tit for tat? Like he did it last time. It's my turn now.

• 50:08Speaker 00

  I know that comes up, you know, and that is actually what gets you into the conversation is to share where you saw responsibility. And I, again, to your point, often, at least I can speak for a man, it's like, hey, I can really be past this. All you have to do is admit where you were at fault and I'm, I'm ready to move past this, right? But to really have strong relationships and to really resolve conflicts emotionally, just step up to be the leader. Don't look at if you had responsibility, just look for where you can take responsibility.

• 50:49Chris Williamson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 50:50Speaker 00

  That person was obviously in a conversation with you, so there is something, some reaction, some tone, or something you forgot to do that kept this conflict going longer or escalated the way that it did. And then so going to your point, you know, with Ben Hardy, there is that sort of reciprocity, right? There's also mirror neurons. So either one of those ones that you want to use, when you come to your partner and you lead first by saying, here's where I see I'm taking responsibility, often the other partner is going to say, you know what, where I see responsibility for myself is this. So if you can just try

• 51:32Speaker 00

  going first, I think you will often see that the other partner will meet you there, too.

• 51:37Chris Williamson?

  It seems to me like so many of the challenges that relationships come up against are these self-fulfilling spirals of resentment and passive aggressiveness and argument and clinging and unresolved problems and more tension and more tension and more and more and more and more and it just winds up, as opposed to the other side of this, which is when you can start to break that cycle. So I'm going to guess that one of the keys is to try and set the tone early in a relationship as well as you can. Obviously, you can't go back and restart the relationship, so you need to start from where you are. But upon beginning a relationship, trying to make this the modus operandi for how people go

• 52:20Chris Williamson?

  about things, I'm going to guess is a good way. Also, I have a buddy, Savan Matosian. Do you know who that is?

• 52:25Speaker 02

  I don't know that name.

• 52:26Chris Williamson?

  So he is the ex-head of CrossFit Media, but he's made a name for himself raising his three kids. So him and his wife have a boy who's six and two twin boys who are three. And he has a very progressive way that he brings them up there. Remembering the names of capital cities whilst balancing on a balancing board. His kid's just done 140 days of skateboarding in a row. He's a grey belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and all of these sorts of things. And one of the tools that he has with his partner is when, whenever they argue, they always make up in front of the kids, even if they didn't argue in front of the kids.

• 53:07Speaker 02

  That we say the same thing.

• 53:09Chris Williamson?

  I think that's a really cool heuristic, someone without kids. But it just seems like a really good way to show your children, look, like this is how things happen. Because as a kid, your emotional intelligence isn't sufficiently developed to understand that I might have overheard mum and dad having an argument earlier on. But I never actually knew if they made up. They might have made up in the car on the way to work or over text message or on a phone call when I went to bed. And you're just left thinking, well, maybe I'm going to be, that's it, like off to the orphanage I go. Yeah.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Yes. You want to let them see you repair it.

• 53:44Chris Williamson?

  Parting thoughts then, any things that you think that we haven't covered so far? Any tips that people should take away that they can enact this straight away?

• 53:51Speaker 02

  I think just really focus on the way to improve the relationship is by learning relationship skills. And there's nothing wrong with you, with your partner, with your relationship. Like if you genuinely feel an alignment between the two of you, then focus on learning those skills. And of course, we'd love to be a part of that, whether you read our book or just follow us on social media. We want to support you in gaining those relationship skills.

• 54:13Chris Williamson?

  Why should people go to check out your stuff?

• 54:16Speaker 02

  Well, since we're in book promotion mode for the Argument Hangover, as we've referenced, we have several $200 worth of preorder bonuses that are definitely worth grabbing a copy even before it hits shelves. And that's at theargumenthangover.com. And then we're on social media, we're meet underscore the Freemans and we're super engaged on there. Yeah, those are the two, then that of course Instagram just links you to everything else that we have.

• 54:40Chris Williamson?

  Perfect. Guys, thank you very much for today. Hopefully we'll have saved some relationships or at least reduced the volume of some arguments.

• 54:46Speaker 02

  You've asked some great questions. Thank you so much for today.

• 54:49Chris Williamson?

  Thank you, Chris. My pleasure.

• 54:55Speaker 02

  Get away, get off it.