How To Get Better With Books | Jim Mullane | Modern Wisdom Podcast 177

Jim Mullane is the man behind the fastest growing Instagram page focussed on self-development & books @GetBetterWithBooks. Developing a reading habit & retaining what you read is a goal many of us have. Today, expect to learn the most important elements of creating a reading habit, how to avoid the most common pitfalls when starting reading, a ton of Jim's best suggestions for his favourite books including a load you will have never heard of and so much more... Sponsor: Buy a 6 Minute Diary - http://amzn.eu/d/cZiqMGT Extra Stuff: Follow Jim's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/getbetterwithbooks/ Buy How To Win Friends - https://amzn.to/2LVDLtp Buy Shoe Dog - https://amzn.to/2Ty7X1R Buy The Road To Character - https://amzn.to/2TDhOn8 Buy The 5am Club - https://amzn.to/3d1IOoa Buy Zen & The Art - https://amzn.to/3ghAfYh Buy Atomic Habits - https://amzn.to/3c1cvUQ Buy Can't Hurt Me - https://amzn.to/3bWTx1X Buy Deep Work - https://amzn.to/3goosYu Buy As A Man Thinketh - https://amzn.to/3gi8sHf Buy Economy Of Truth - https://amzn.to/2LXqQYc Buy Educated - https://amzn.to/2LSOHrX Buy The Ride Of A Lifetime - https://amzn.to/36v2cqZ Buy Watership Down - https://amzn.to/2yzQ8se Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #reading #getbetterwithbooks #books - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Back to your question about how to build a reading habit, it's that you need to be very honest with yourself about what you're interested in. And starting from having an idea of what piques your interest, I think if you can choose topics and books and authors that are focused on those interests, that is the best way to build a reading habit, because then it does not feel like a chore. It really just feels like a leisure activity.

• 0:28Chris Williamson?

  Jim Mullane, how are you, my friend?

• 0:31Speaker 00

  Pleasant, doing well, enjoying my lockdown in style here in my sweatpants and my sweatshirt. Doing well, gotta be honest.

• 0:39Chris Williamson?

  Enjoying that new moustache?

• 0:41Speaker 00

  It's not new. Unfortunately, it's all I can grow.

• 0:43Chris Williamson?

  That is, that's some serious tash going on there.

• 0:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I like to tell people I'm a little follicle challenged, so I like to overcompensate with the moustache, because it grabs people's attention and then it veers the attention away from the fact that's all I can grow, so.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  Focus on your strengths.

• 1:01Chris Williamson?

  I get it, man. Peacocking, but only above the lip.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  Yes, eyes up here.

• 1:07Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, up top, up top. So, your Instagram account, which is what a lot of people listening might know you for, Get Better With Books, how would you describe, what is that? What is Get Better With Books?

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Get Better With Books is currently the fastest growing Instagram page focused specifically on self-help, personal development, business-related books. It really just started as a creative endeavor where I could combine my interest in photography and my interest in reading and have something to do outside of my day job. But I've been doing it for almost two years now. May 15th will be my two-year anniversary running the page. And I think as of today, I'm a little over 85,000 followers. So, I'm a little dumbfounded of how quickly it's grown and the fact that people enjoy seeing content specifically around books. But it's been a fun, fun journey so far.

• 1:58Chris Williamson?

  Why do you think it is popular?

• 2:00Speaker 00

  I think it for a couple of different reasons. Number one, it speaks to the attitudes of a lot of people out there, not just in the US, but internationally speaking, if you take a look at some of the the data that I get to pull from the Instagram account, I'd say a third of my audience is US based, but the third's in Europe. I'd say overwhelming majority of people are from India. And I think it speaks to the psychographic of certain people who are just focused on developing themselves as an individual. Right. They use books as a tool to to better themselves. And I think it speaks to a lot of people who love reading, but more importantly, improving themselves.

• 2:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, for sure. How many books have you read? Do you know?

• 2:39Speaker 00

  I haven't kept count, unfortunately.

• 2:41Chris Williamson?

  You know, one of these people that's like religious on Goodreads or anything?

• 2:45Speaker 00

  No, no, I don't keep an active Goodreads account. But if I were to estimate how many books that I've read in my lifetime, I'd say probably like 150, 160 books. And I think last year and the year before, were really the first two years that I've actually kept track of how many books I've read. So last year, I think I got up to 50 for the course of the year. And the year before I was at, you know, a little over 30. And it's important to also acknowledge the fact that these these metrics, like how many books that you you've read, or how quickly you read books, I think that can be a distraction for a lot of people, right? They they see books as as almost like a vanity metric, right? Like, how many books have you read in total?

• 3:26Speaker 00

  And I have this conversation with a lot of other book Instagram accounts that I I see as cohorts. And we we almost see that as as a disdain, right? Like, if you read 100 books in a month, but you don't, you don't retain anything, right? Is it is it worth it? Or are you just using that metric to, you know, as a as a feather in your cap, if you will?

• 3:45Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, I mean, in this age now, this sort of burgeoning underground movement, the the new aphorists that are coming out that like the maxim, you know, this show is called Modern Wisdom. I am part of the fucking problem as far as that bit's concerned, you know, like, but

• 4:04Speaker 00

  Thanks, Chris.

• 4:04Chris Williamson?

  There is, there is like a There is a, an ongoing subculture now of people that I think are kind of repatriating wisdom, you know, like kind of falling back into the, the timeless understandings of the principles that we should live our life by trying to uncover, uncover what we are, who we are, why we like the things we like, why the world operates the way that it does. And you're totally correct as well that by reading a lot, or by saying that you read a lot, you never know if someone actually does read two books a week or whatever. By either saying that you read a lot or reading a lot, you, you get to have the, the proxy,

• 4:46Chris Williamson?

  you get to have the veneer of looking wise whilst not ever having to deploy any wisdom. You know what I mean?

• 4:54Speaker 00

  It's, it's an interesting juxtaposition of the two, right? Because you have the, the short morsels of wisdom that you get from social media and you overlay that with the long form content, which is inherently in books, right? And comparing the two on the surface, it almost seems like it doesn't mix, right? Like, how can you surmise a 300 and 400 page book, you know, like 12 rules of life, right? Jordan Peterson, for example, right? And you see, he's very popular on social media, but it's hard to distill wisdom in a book like that in, you know, an Instagram post, right? So it's an interesting dynamic between the two. But I also think it's a good opportunity to just expose more people to the benefits of reading because there are a lot of people who come to my account

• 5:39Speaker 00

  and they ask me questions. They're like, hey, bro, like, I just started reading a couple of months ago, like, what books would you recommend to a beginner? And for someone like me, I don't see myself as an expert, right? Like, I'm just someone who likes reading and I have an Instagram page. It's like, apparently that makes me an expert. But at the end of the day, there are a handful of books that I always go to as, hey, you're new to reading here, a few that you should consider reading. So I guess I am, I'm somewhat of a book expert, if you follow my Instagram page.

• 6:09Chris Williamson?

  I get it. Yeah, we are going to get into that. We've got all of the recommendations and that will be coming in a little bit. But first, what I wanted to ask was, what are the common mistakes that you think people make, or perhaps the ones that you made as well, when building a reading habit? Because before you read the books that you might recommend to people, there has to be a habit to be able to actually get through them.

• 6:32Speaker 00

  Absolutely. I think the first mistake that I come across from a lot of new people is they they feel like you have to finish a book, right? If you come across a book that was highly recommended and maybe you just don't find it interesting, it doesn't peak your your nerve or it doesn't strike your nerve at all, you feel like you are forced to finish it from end to end, right? And that's one of the biggest mistakes because if if you are not interested in a book, it's going to feel like a chore, right? It's not going to feel like something that you're you're actually getting a lot of benefit from. So if you don't like a book, please do not waste the time. I mean, it's kind of like watching a movie. If you're sitting at home watching Netflix and you come across a movie and 10, 15 minutes into it, you just don't like it, you don't sit through the the next 45, 50 minutes, right? So it shouldn't be anything different than than

• 7:17Speaker 00

  reading a book. And I think a lot of people just have this attitude that I have to finish a book.

• 7:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Is that is it just sunk cost fallacy? Is it that people see it as a badge of honor to get through a difficult book?

• 7:27Speaker 00

  Sometimes it there. There is a lot of public relations when it comes to, hey, I'm going to read this book and I need to save face by by actually finishing it from start to end. We're having a little bit of self-confidence to say like, you know, I did not like this book. I I wanted to put it down and I wanted to start something that I'm interested. So it's it's really just being comfortable with yourself to say, yeah, not digging this. I'm going to put it down.

• 7:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's the other thing as well. This came from Kamal Ravikant, a conversation I had with him. And he said, 90% of self-development books should have been, sorry, 50% of self-development books should have been an article and 49% should have been a tweet.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 8:12Chris Williamson?

  And then there's 1% which actually needed 300 pages, 400 pages to pad out the concept. John Peterson's is a good example or anything by Taleb. Like, it's not really, it's not about that the one thing, you know, like digital minimalism by Cal Newport should have been an article. Now, don't get me wrong, you can have this, here's a strategy and it's a workbook and a course or whatever that you want to say on the side. But that that could have been. Long blog post.

• 8:43Speaker 00

  Right. And if you, if you read a lot more books, you come to that realization that most of the books that you read, they're either similar in a lot of ways, or just like you said, they probably could have been summarized in a page or maybe in a YouTube video. And I think one of the books in a hot, hot take here, and I actually get a lot of flack on Instagram for this, is there's a book, Start with Why by Simon Sinek. It's widely popular in the bookstagram sphere and people say, this is a life-changing book. And I came across the book and I said, this is mildly interesting, but I think it's very superficial. I think it's very redundant. And I wasn't a huge fan of this. And I was, I've been very public about my stance about that book. And that just goes to your, to

• 9:26Speaker 00

  your fact that not, not everyone has the same opinions on popular books. And I think it's very important to, to be upfront with yourself, to not, not pretend that you enjoy a book just because it's popular. But to your point about these books that could be maybe summarized in a blog post. Yeah, that's, that was, that was one of, I think there's a four or five minute video on, on YouTube about the, the Start with Why concept by him talking in a, in a TED Talk. So anyone who has not read Start with Why, I would say just check out his YouTube video. And if it's, if it's something that piques your interest a little bit more, then maybe pick up the book. So hopefully I saved you a couple of days of reading there.

• 10:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. Mark Manson, The Sutcliffe, like, just didn't get it, man. Just didn't, I'm like, okay, Mark, you keep swearing. Cool. Like,

• 10:15Speaker 00

  That's where you draw the line?

• 10:16Chris Williamson?

  You just, when you just kept on swearing. I was like, I get it. Like, this is a book that's about swearing. And, and like, that was it. But then Models by him, How to Attract Men Through Honesty, is amazing. And that couldn't have been a tweet, that couldn't have been a blog post or an article. Any guys listening who want to kind of up their game, especially as we're about to re-release ourselves back out of lockdown, Models by Mark Manson is like the pick-up artistry book for people that don't want to be seedy pick-up artists. It's about how to maximize your confidence, how to actually be a fuller version of you and the basics of attraction between men and women. And I think it's great. But subtle art, I was like, All right, Mark. Cool.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  And I think it's important to understand that you don't, again, you don't have to like every book that's popular on social media. And when it comes to enjoying books, I think a lot of it has to do with not only the content, but the author's writing style, right? You can come across an author that you just truly vibe with how they write. And regardless of what the content is, you could sit down for hours and hours at a day just because of the writing style. It's so enjoyable.

• 11:24Chris Williamson?

  Who are some of those authors for you?

• 11:27Speaker 00

  Number one that comes to mind is David Brooks. He wrote a couple of books, The Road to Character, which is easily in my top 10 books. It's more that self-help book, but it's more emphasizing true virtues, right? Like, living with chivalry and just living with honor and as opposed to focusing on the external virtues, right, of commerce and status, right? It's more important to be upfront with yourself and what you truly believe in. So, The Road to Character, David Brooks, I think he was a columnist in the New York Times, so just a tremendous writer, someone that I truly enjoy. But another writer that I'm starting to absolutely adore, Robin Sharma. I'm sure you guys

• 12:08Speaker 00

  are all familiar with The 5 AM Club. This little dandy right here, The 5 AM Club. So, this was one of the books that I came across just because I saw it all over Instagram, right? Like, I'm I'm human too. I pick up my my future reads just based off what I'm seeing on social media and social proof, right? If people are raving about a book, there's probably a reason why it's so popular. And that was one of the books. And so far, I just started reading it a couple of days ago. There's a certain storytelling vibe, right? And you come across a writer who can easily detail certain intricate parts of a relationship or certain nuances in body language, right? When you can read how a writer is detailing a whole scene and an atmosphere and a mood.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  You you almost forget that you're reading, right? Like you're it's almost like you're watching a movie and it's those types of books that are more of story focused as opposed to, you know, the the point by point by point self-help books that sometimes aren't as enjoyable to read. These are are type the stories that I've definitely been a lot more accustomed to recently.

• 13:13Chris Williamson?

  I love that. Okay, so we know that you're not supposed to think that you need to finish a book. That is a bad habit. What else? Before we get on to how to build a reading habit, are there any other like common errors that people are making when they when they start out?

• 13:31Speaker 00

  I think another common error is just focusing on the metrics, right? You you get in this idea that I have to read fifty books this year, or I have to read two books a month because the latest business insider dot com article said the most successful people are reading X amount of books per month. And I think I'm successful, so I need to live up to that metric, right? So I think beholding yourself to some of those external metrics that I call vanity metrics, it almost loses you lose sight of why you're reading in the first place, right? Like at the end of the day, you want to pick up a book to either learn something new, to expand your wisdom, expand your perspective. And if those ideas, those thoughts are clouded by simply, I need to finish this book faster so I can get to

• 14:15Speaker 00

  my next one, it's it's counterproductive. So I think just

• 14:18Chris Williamson?

  Wrong things, right?

• 14:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. So I think it's more important to just remind yourself why you're reading in the first place as opposed to, like you just mentioned, like having having like a tally mark next to how many books you read just for vanity purposes.

• 14:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think I love the analogy and it's not one that I've thought of before about if you were watching a bad movie, you know, I'm ruthless on Netflix, man. So ruthless, I'm straight out of there. I'm pressing the back button, telling everyone I'm sat with that it's absolutely terrible. So and yeah, and it's the same, you know, with books, I think Ryan Holiday, when he reversed interviewed Tim Ferriss on the Tim Ferriss Show, they talked about reading quite a lot, might be an interesting one for you. And I think his heuristic is if you are

• 15:03Chris Williamson?

  Whatever, a hundred pages minus your age into a book and you haven't wanted to send a photo of one of the passages to a buddy going like, oh my God, dude, like you've got to see this. Um, that like, that's the rule that he uses. And I really like, I really like that. And I'm thinking back to some of the stuff that's got me recently. So Robert Wright's The Moral Animal just plain took my head off. I was like two pages in and I'm just on my highlights on Kindle, like just the whole page was highlighted. I'm like, Ryan, you know what you're on about, man? I get it. So yeah, you, you, you're totally correct. Having the courage to put a book down despite what everybody else says,

• 15:48Chris Williamson?

  despite whether it's supposed to be cool, despite whether you loved their first book. I loved Mark Manson's models. So a lot of not giving a fuck, couldn't give a fuck. Um, so I always wanted to say that. Um, okay. So that's how we don't build a reading habit. How do we build a reading habit? Why do we start?

• 16:09Speaker 00

  It starts with just being upfront about what your interests are, right? So if you, you take a look at the get better with books page, there's an obvious emphasis on self-help, personal development, business, right? Maybe personal finance books. Uh, it's, it's unintended, but I've catered towards a specific demographic of, you know, 18 to 34 males, right? College educated males, people who either have a steady career or either getting into the workforce and are, are interested in, in upping their game. Right? That's, that's again, unintended about how, how I started and where I'm catered to. But at the end of the day, that's, that's not the interest of everybody out there, right? There are people who follow my page that are, you know, the 45 year old woman from, from Pakistan,

• 16:52Speaker 00

  right? And she may not give a fuck about, uh, you know, what Dave Ramsey says about total money makeovers, right? And that's okay. Right? And, and back to your question about how to build a reading habit. It's you need to be very honest with yourself about what you're interested in. And starting from, you know, having an idea of what, what piques your interest. I think if you can choose topics and, and books and, and authors that are focused on those interests, that is the best way to build a reading habit because then it does not feel like a chore. It really just feels like a leisure activity. And once you can start building up a couple of books specifically focusing on a topic that you're interested in. And you get that reading habit, then you can start peering into the periphery about,

• 17:35Speaker 00

  okay, well, what's this, you know, this business stuff, zero to one, Peter Thiel, like, what's, what's that about? Or Ray Dalio, principles, like, I see that all the time. And then reading starts to feel like, less like a chore, but you can also expand your knowledge by reading stuff that you're not normally reading.

• 17:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, no one goes into the gym and looks at like the big buff guy in the corner and says, yeah, gonna, what, what are you lifting there, mate? Right, okay, I'll put that on my barbell and I'll have a crack. And I fucked my shit up. Like, you know, that's, that's what happens. So again, with that, like, it's, it's common sense. And that, the Naval quote, the Naval quote about reading, read what you love until you love to read. And then David Perel piggybacked off the back of that the other day with his writing course he's got going at the moment. He says, write what you love until you love to write. And the same could be done for exercise. It's do the exercise that you love until you love to exercise as well. Like, the easiest training plan is the one that doesn't feel

• 18:36Chris Williamson?

  like you've got to go and train.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 18:38Chris Williamson?

  So, okay, so we know that we need to pick books, like, in terms of topic wise, what do I do next?

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Next, and if you're really serious about building the reader habit, it's, it's just like anything else. Like, you need to set aside time that you want to dedicate towards building that habit, right? So I think you use the gym analogy all the time. And I like to equate reading to building a strong, you know, habit in the gym, right? Like, you don't start bench pressing 315 pounds overnight, right? You have to work your way towards it. But at the same time, you don't do chest exercises seven days in a row, right? You need to have some sort of balance when it comes to your reading habit. So a lot of people that are asking for book recommendations, a lot of time, I just tell them, hey, be open about exploring new topics that you're not normally accustomed to. And

• 19:29Speaker 00

  here's an example for me. So I, I obviously read a lot of personal development, self-help, business type books. And a couple of months ago, at my sister's wedding, my uncle, who had no idea I was running this page, I told him, I was like, hey, hey, Frank. I would like you to know that I run a semi-successful book page on Instagram. You know, a couple of drinks in, but spouting my confidence there. And he's like, okay, I got a couple of book recommendations for you. And these two books could not have been farther off the beaten path from the shit that I usually read. One of them was Zen Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, right? It's one of those legendary. I don't even know how to begin to describe that type of book. But I remember just reading the book and to the point about getting into the book early.

• 20:13Speaker 00

  I was so just dumbfounded at what the fuck this book was about. I had no idea what it was about, but I couldn't stop reading it. Right? So I think it's it's super important to time in and time out to just expose yourself to stuff that you're not accustomed to reading. Because that will spark some interest in, again, that periphery. You're like, huh, that actually is interesting. I don't know why I would I would come across metaphysics and the reason of meaning. You know, and you can get lost in chapters and chapters in that book about what is meaning? What is the definition of meaning? I've never thought about that in my 32 years, but that did spark a little bit of curiosity. And I would not have come across that question if I was not open to taking a recommendation from someone. And just just to open up my my perspective a little bit.

• 20:57Chris Williamson?

  What was the second book?

• 20:58Speaker 00

  The second book was called Thunder at Twilight. I forget the name of the author, but it was a historical work based off of Vienna pre-World War I. So it's a lot to do with Austrian politics, Austrian economy. There's a lot of historical features. You know, if you're familiar with with Austria and Vienna pre-World War I. I'm sure, Chris, you're very up to date on on that specific time of the world.

• 21:29Chris Williamson?

  That's literally my wheelhouse, man. I go, sometimes I wake up on a morning and just start thinking about it, yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  And that's, that's one of those books where the writing completely lost me, right? Like I, I was not into it. There's a lot of historical references, a lot of geological references, right? Like certain areas of Austria that they're just riveting off. Like you're in a conversation with someone who knew, and I'm like, uh, what, what, what am I? What am I doing here? Like, what am I reading?

• 21:56Speaker 00

  But to, to my earlier point as to why I actually read it, there was a lot of social pressure as to why I forced myself to finish it because I was a part and part of a book club with, with my sister and my dad and my uncle, whom actually recommended that book. So I felt a lot of pressure to finish this book because if I didn't, they'd be like, dude, the hell, like I just recommended this book and you didn't even read it asshole. So, uh, there are some times when I do succumb to, to social pressure in terms of finishing a book, even though I hate it.

• 22:24Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I, I understand completely. So we need to set time aside for it. How my suggestion, I don't know how you do it, but as someone again, who's, I'm total new to, as far as sort of the reading journey goes, but my best way is part of the morning routine. Put in morning routine, uh, set a timer for 20 minutes and read for 20 minutes. And, um, because I like to go back over stuff quite a lot, uh, I'm quite concerned about retention.

• 22:52Chris Williamson?

  That can sometimes maybe even only be like 15 pages. And then sometimes it may be more like, it's like fiction or something, it might be 30. Actually tends, tends to not be fiction on the morning. Another habit as well, another suggestion for people is to read nonfiction by day and read fiction by night. I tend to find that, or not necessarily fiction, but like a nonfiction story or biographies by night, basically not personal development by night. You know, if you're trying to really get your mind going about how to upgrade your personal finances or this psychological strategy for building a business or working on yourself, sending yourself to sleep with that to me, doesn't always put me in the quite, quite the right sort of mood.

• 23:37Chris Williamson?

  Whereas if I'm just imagining this world or this story or this journal of something that's going on, that can make a bit of a difference.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I've heard similar talk tracks about combining both audiobooks and physical books in the same manner, right? Like you use physical books for self-help, business and, and personal development, and you use audiobooks for more of those biographies, memoirs, fiction, things that are easier. To digest, right? And at the end of the day, it's whatever works best for you. There's no one right way to consume books, whether it's audiobooks or reading at night, reading in the morning, as long as you are doing it, you're going to see some benefit from it.

• 24:13Chris Williamson?

  How do we retain what we read?

• 24:19Speaker 00

  It's a good question, and I think that's one of the biggest challenges that I often have too. And I make some references to this in my Get Better With Books page, and I kind of joke at it, that retaining books is very challenging, right? Like, so often you come across a book that you're like, damn, that was awesome. I love that book. And then two weeks later, someone's like, hey, Jim, how's that book? And you're like, um, so, you know, it was good.

• 24:45Chris Williamson?

  There's a guy, there's a, ah.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  It's good. I recommend it.

• 24:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:52Speaker 00

  So, I mean, it's natural. It happens to everyone, right? To people who don't admit it. It's very challenging to retain the stuff that you read. That being said, you do have to be very proactive about making sure there are key concepts that you want to keep with you. In the process that I go through, it's just three simple steps. Number one is I always read with a pencil or a highlight or some sort of writing apparatus with me. So every single time I come across something that makes me pause, that makes me go, hmm, or, you know, that's interesting. Let me expand on that. Something that just tongues on that, tugs on that string of curiosity. Underline it, write it down, and make sure I fold a page down on the corner. So at the end of each chapter, or at the end of the book, and

• 25:33Speaker 00

  it kind of depends on the book, how I want to parse that out. But I always go back to the important parts. Every single time I finish a book, right? Make sure that I'm taking the time to digest the important parts, so I can retain that, right? That's the whole, that's the whole goal here. So if I can take everything that I underlined or jotted down, I either put it in a notebook or I use note cards, right? So I'll take maybe a stack of like three or four note cards. And I did this for Ego is the Enemy by Ryan Holiday, and I have them right on the corner of my windowsill over there, and I try to read them. At least once a week, and that's, that's the important part is you underline everything. You write it down in some sort of notebook or note card. But I think the most important thing is you have to revisit them constantly. Right?

• 26:17Speaker 00

  There's no way that you're going to remember something if you don't constantly remind yourself of the importance of it. So for me personally, what I do is I keep those stack of note cards. And once or twice a week, if I have a little free time, I'll just like to cycle through them and reread them. Like, hmm, that is interesting. I need to focus more on that. Or, yeah, you know, based off of what I know now, maybe that's not as important as I thought. Maybe I'll put it in the back of the pile. But it's, it's very important to constantly keep it top of mind.

• 26:45Chris Williamson?

  It's an interesting analog approach that you've got. So BookCision or Readwise or Bookly or, you know, any of these different apps that either integrate with an iOS reading app, that integrate with Kindle, that integrate with a Paperwhite, that allow you to export your highlights automatically. And then they'll email them to you every day and all this sort of stuff. Um, have, is that just a disposition of yours that you've preferred to go analog rather than digital with both the books you get? And the way that you do your highlighting?

• 27:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's just my, my preference. And I think a lot of that has to do with the, the physical aspect of writing it down. Just helps to ingrain those messages that much more. Right? If I'm just simply highlighting something on a Kindle, and I don't use a Kindle at all. And most, most of my book reading is either through audiobook or, or physical book. Right? So if I can physically underline something, if I can physically write it down and, and go through that process, I think it helps ingrain that message that much more as opposed to just doing everything digitally.

• 27:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 27:44Chris Williamson?

  Your retention or the way that you find audiobooks versus, uh, normal books reading? How, did you, do you stick to what you said before where you've got more story narrative style stuff on audio? And more kind of personal development stuff on? On books.

• 28:00Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 28:00Chris Williamson?

  That's it. I have to say, like, having developed a reading habit, worked real hard to develop whatever semblance of a reading habit I've got. Over the last sort of three to four years, my retention from reading something physically versus listening to it isn't even in the same universe.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Right. Yeah. And I think a lot of that has to do with with having more of an active versus a passive approach to the reading process itself. Right. If you're just listening to an audio book and maybe you're doing some chores, you're doing some yard work or something like that. It's it's really passive. But if you are reading a physical book, and again, this is just, this is my personal preference. There's no one right way to do this. But me personally having to be proactive about what I pick and choose to put in my notebook. And being proactive to physically pick up these note cards, I think just being more active in that process helps to retain, at least in my opinion.

• 28:53Chris Williamson?

  I think as well, we need to, so much of this is individual, right? There might be someone listening who's got perfect retention of what they consume on audio. And I have fantastic retention, what I consume through podcasts. I can tell you, like, the type of fire hydrant outside of Chris Delia's house, like, you know, all the total useless information, which I.

• 29:13Speaker 00

  What kind of fire hydrant was it?

• 29:15Chris Williamson?

  It's a silver one because he lives in Beverly Hills. And in Beverly Hills, you get silver fire hydrants.

• 29:22Speaker 00

  Someday, someday we'll have a nice fire.

• 29:24Chris Williamson?

  So, you know, just like random stuff. And it's like, I can pick that up through podcasts. Audio books retention is a little bit less. I feel less involved. There's less energy going on, in my, in my opinion. But if I'm not so bothered about retention and it's more the overall feel. And again, that relates to the type of book, right? If there's a core lesson, which is the whole book trying to give it to you with a number of different stories. Perhaps an audio book would be great for that. Whereas if it's like, you know, if it's the 10 things you need to do to complete your X. You're only going to get like maybe one or two if that's not the style that you're learning.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, exactly. And you do a good job at reminding people that there is no one right way to do it, but also to the point that certain books out there are just so much harder to retain, right? Like if you've read Robert Greene's Forty Eight Laws of Power, right? There's so many different laws and a lot of them are contradictory. You're like, hey, Law 13, you told me something else. And Law 17, it's completely different. So I think it's important to distill what type of book it is, but also at the same time, just, just cut yourself some slack. You're not going to remember it.

• 30:32Chris Williamson?

  I'll tell you what is a terrible audiobook to listen to, Thinking Fast and Slow.

• 30:37Speaker 00

  It's a challenging read. If you actually sit down and read it too, it's challenging, regardless of how you consume it.

• 30:42Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, the way, because there's so many mental exercises and it's like, look at these, this list of letters on either side of the page and you're listening to it and you're like, and someone told me, someone had said, bro, you don't want to, you don't want to try and listen to that book. And I was like, no, fuck you. It's 20 hours plus. Like I'm listening to this. I'm not reading this. And then sure enough, I was an hour into it and I was like, I don't know what's going on. I don't know who anybody is. I think he got married to her. Like, I don't know. So, okay, okay. Right. We're, we're into the meat of it. This is what everybody came for. So let's say that I'm getting into reading personal development. What, what gets me through the door? What's the entrance ticket into the world of personal development? Where do I start?

• 31:25Speaker 00

  I think the first book that I always recommend people is Atomic Habits by James Clear for a lot of reasons, right? It's, it's one of those books that's easy to read. It's not convoluted in, in the messaging, but also the language to, to convey the lessons, but there's actionable insights, right? And I gauge a lot of how I see a book based off of how easy it is to consume, but also how easy it was, is how easy it is to implement, right? And Atomic Habits is just an A plus in both of those regards. I mean, it's something, and I was actually just thinking about this today because a little plug for Get Better With Books, I'm building out a YouTube account. My first video that I'm planning right now is all about the five life-changing books that I've come across and Atomic Habits was one of them. And one of the key components that I always remind

• 32:10Speaker 00

  myself about Atomic Habits is having an identity-based habit system. And you, I mean, you see you're nodding your head because this is something that if you're in that personal development sphere, it's, it's something you take very serious, right? Like if you want to build a better reading habit, rather than just being like, oh, I need to do this and this to become a better reader. Rather than doing that, you should just focus on seeing yourself as a reader, identifying yourself as a reader, but then also taking it one step further and thinking, what would a reader do? Right? So almost reverse engineering that habit by identifying yourself as someone who's already had that and then going forward with small little wins. Right? And that's just a quick snippet of Atomic Habits.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  And it's just one of those books that every single person I've come across has come back universally saying, this was a fucking awesome, awesome book.

• 33:00Chris Williamson?

  Outrageous.

• 33:01Speaker 00

  Thank you for recommending. Yes.

• 33:02Chris Williamson?

  The fact that it's so new, does it a disservice? I think.

• 33:08Speaker 00

  In a way.

• 33:09Chris Williamson?

  There's a Lindy, the Lindy argument that you should be reading books that are the classics.

• 33:13Speaker 00

  Right.

• 33:14Chris Williamson?

  And that is the antidote to the fact that there is a lot of self-development books that come out all the time and you need to be careful in what you invest your time in. But obviously that puts new classics on the back foot and Atomic Habits, Atomic Habits can be read in, in 20, 30 years' time, 100%.

• 33:34Speaker 00

  Yep. Yep. So that's always near the top of the list for me. And to add on top of that, in terms of easy takeaways, the number two book that I always recommend, it's, it is a classic. Back to that, how long has this book been available for? Dale Carnegie's How to Win Friends and Influence People. So this is a staple in that self-development, personal self-help regiment, right? If you will. That book's been around for close to 100 years now and it is still on the top of the bestsellers list because of how, again, easy it is to digest and how easy it is to implement it into your daily life. And how I came across this book was an interesting story. So I just graduated college. It was, gosh, almost eight, nine years ago. Had no idea what I was doing with my future, right?

• 34:16Speaker 00

  Like it's just aimlessly wandering around in my, my, my early 20-year-old existence, right? And I was puttering around at my house and I was walking through my dad's old office. He used to, he run his own business from the basement of my, my parents' house. So when he moved out, he left all of his books there. So I was just going through some of his old books and I came across this book, How to Win Friends and Influence People. And I was like, oh, that sounds interesting, right? I just based a book by its cover, quite literally there. So I picked it up, I read it in probably a couple of days' time and it really changed my perspective mainly on how you communicate with people, number one. But number two. Having the perspective to see how your message is perceived by the other person's

• 34:58Speaker 00

  eyes, right? If you can communicate with someone and not be all about me, me, me, me, but rather look from their perspective as to why would this person even want to talk to me? Well, most likely they want to talk about themselves, right? People are inherently selfish and they want to talk about themselves, right? That's just the nature of people. So if you can use that to your advantage, one of the key adages that I always use from, from how to win friends and influence people is to be interesting, be interested. So if you were talking to someone and you can genuinely be interested in what they're saying and you say, hey, tell me a little bit more about that. Oh, that's, that's fascinating. How is that? How is that impacting your life? And really just having that perspective of how is this conversation beneficial to that person? People will come away from that conversation

• 35:42Speaker 00

  being like, holy shit, Jim is a great conversationalist, even though that person just talked 45 minutes about themselves.

• 35:50Chris Williamson?

  About themselves, yeah. I can't remember the book that this is in. Oh, this is going to kill me. You might be able to tell me. There was a study done where they put a guy on a plane and they said, we need you to sit. I need you to speak to the person next to you for the entire flight. And it's like an eight hour flight. Don't let them, you don't want, they're not allowed to look at the screen. They're not allowed to look out, like just get their attention. But you're not allowed to tell them anything about you, not even your name. Not allowed to tell them anything about you. And anyway, we get off and they do a little survey afterwards and they're going up to all of the passengers, but it's this particular guy that they're looking for. They get to the person he was speaking to and they say, hello, so we're just going around today, just doing a little bit of

• 36:33Chris Williamson?

  a survey. Just wanted to ask how your flight was and who you were sat next to and what you talked about. He said, oh, I was sat next to this amazing guy. He's such a, such a phenomenal guy. Like, you know, it's just, we, we, classic conversation. He said, oh, that's brilliant. Would you be able to tell us his name? And the guy's like,

• 36:54Chris Williamson?

  No, and that that just drills it home, right? You know, people like people like to talk about themselves. And I think as well, like, it's not often that people are interested. Like, this is a catastrophe that plays off the back of something which is real pervasive. That you don't often get people that are interested. So when you do, you're like, oh, yeah, shit, I get to, I can open myself up and I can talk about.

• 37:18Speaker 00

  They're not staring at their phone while they're talking.

• 37:20Chris Williamson?

  Can play with ideas. Okay. How when friends and influence people, Atomic Habits, where are we going next?

• 37:26Speaker 00

  Uh, third, it's a combination of two, because there's, there's really two modes of thought here. One is if you want to go down a motivational route, uh, book, Can't Hurt Me by, by David Goggins. It's just one of those books that just kicks you in the ass, right? This dude, if you've heard him on the Joe Rogan podcast, or if you've heard his audio book, like, he is just that raw motherfucker that's, you know, fuck this.

• 37:47Chris Williamson?

  Stay hard.

• 37:48Speaker 00

  Stay hard, stay hard. And you're listening to this guy and you're like, you don't even realize, but your fists are clenched and you're like, your jaws clenched. And you're like, yeah, like you're about to rip off some flesh with your bare teeth. But that's just one of those motivational books where you, you listen to someone's story and you can really understand how far the, the human potential can take. And just based off of your own mental limitations, right? So if you can distill someone's personal journey, just based off of pushing those boundaries, it starts to open up your eyes as to, you know, maybe I'm being a little bit of bitch in, in this, this area of my life. Or, you know, maybe I gave up a little bit easier there.

• 38:25Speaker 00

  So it's, it's those types of motivational stories that I, I actually made a post about it on my Instagram yesterday about Goggins has this unique capability of calling out your bullshit while motivating you at the same time. And I think it's those types of books that keep you accountable, um, to look yourself in the mirror. Like he uses the accountability mirror, right? He emphasizes that, just making sure that you're doing everything that you can day in and day out to, to push that potential. But the second book, and this is a little bit away from, from that motivational, um, is to Cal Newport, like you were saying about, um, digital minimalism. Uh, one of my favorite books, um, especially right now, given the, the state of the world, state of the events is Deep Work. And if you are a creative, if you are an entrepreneur, if you are doing anything where

• 39:08Speaker 00

  you want your work to speak for itself, I think it's never been more important than it is right now to set aside some time where you are uninterrupted, where you can take long periods of time to focus on your work at hand. And I think Cal Newport does a great job at outlining why deep work, given the state of events right now, is one of the most important skills that you can you can work on.

• 39:29Chris Williamson?

  It's a it's a term all of its own now, right? You know, like, people talk about doing deep work, and it's a reference to him. I couldn't agree more. It's an antithesis. It is the it's the antidote to the always on million projects, million tabs open at once catastrophe that we find ourselves in. Okay, so we've got we've got a foundation for self-development. This is we're in we're in the door now. And why don't we do some books that you think people may not have either heard of or not read, some undiscovered gems still staying in the self-development space? And then we'll go into more like a biography and then maybe a fiction, a couple of fictions as well.

• 40:12Speaker 00

  Sure. So if we want to start with a book that's a little bit under the radar that is equally as important when it comes to personal development, self-help, it's a book by James Allen called As a Man Thinketh. It's a very simple read. I think it's it's no more than 150 pages. But the basis of that is it's very similar to Napoleon's Hill, you know, concept about thinking good thoughts and making sure that you're proactive about the way that you're thinking, right, using thinking as as a model for success. And it's similar to to Marcus Aurelius, right? When he when he says, control your thoughts, control your life. The basis of this book, As a Man Thinketh, is just being very proactive about your thoughts as an entity, right? So if you go about your day being very pessimistic,

• 40:57Speaker 00

  very cautious, you know, being overall doom and gloom, right? Like, that's going to manifest itself in in your actions and the way that you pursue your ambitions in life. But if you're overall optimistic, if you're overall energetic, and if you believe in yourself, if you tell yourself, and you constantly remind yourself that you're capable of doing powerful things, and this is just based off of having that initial thought process that you can. It's just something that you can constantly use to cultivate a lot of that positive energy in your life. And I think one of the key takeaways and the key quotes that I got from that is he compares your mind to a garden, right? And if you're constantly cultivating your mind in a way that you're cultivating a lot of good thoughts, it's going to yield

• 41:38Speaker 00

  a lot of positive things, right? It's going to yield a bountiful fruit or vegetables, things that's going to be nourishing to your life. Whereas if you're neglecting your thoughts, if you're neglecting your mind, similar to a garden, it's going to yield a lot of weeds, a lot of things that are going to clutter your vision, right? So I think it's very important to be very proactive about how you think, because that in itself manifests into your life.

• 42:03Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, and also not a very nice place to be, an ugly garden. As my garden youth, four years old now, it's beautiful. I've got a flower wall and everything. But yeah, tend to your garden. What's next? What else? Let's go another sort of under known underrated self-development.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Actually, an interesting book that you may know well aware of as Economy of the Truth by Dizzy and Drake.

• 42:27Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, have you got the second version? Have you got the new version?

• 42:30Speaker 00

  I haven't got the new version yet.

• 42:32Chris Williamson?

  Oh, Dizzy, what are you doing, man? So he's done an expanded, an expanded version. I have a couple of copies over there that's literally just now. I don't think he can get it to himself. So he's in Romania. And like, Amazon isn't delivering his own book to him. So he sent it to me and he was like, yo, bro, can you just have a go through and see if there's any printing errors and stuff like that, which is so hilarious. So yeah, no worries. But yeah, Economy of Truth by Dizzy. Tell us, tell us about it.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So it's another one of those books. And we were talking about this earlier in the conversation about distilling wisdom into that bite sized, manageable format and content. And I think Dizzy is someone who I interacted mainly off of my Instagram page that he hit me up. I had actually been following him on my personal account for almost a year before I started my page and he had reached out to me. So I was almost a little like starstruck. I'm like, shit, Dizzy's reaching out to me. I made it. But it's just one of those books that's it's just parsed down wisdom. It covers everything from philosophy and just daily personal development. It's just one of those books that's easy to consume, but at the same time gets you to think. And I think at the end of the day, if you can read a book that actually Creates an opportunity to pause and think. I think you're on something good there.

• 43:44Chris Williamson?

  It's a unique type of book. It's short aphorisms. You could pick it up and put it down in a page.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 43:49Chris Williamson?

  As long as you gave yourself three or four minutes to think about what was on that page and how it relates to your life. It's a very unique way of reading and as we mentioned earlier on, much more active, you know. So, okay, let's get into perhaps some more, not necessarily personal development, but still nonfiction. Just some, either some favorites, some unknown ones, whatever you think.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's, there's a recent trend that I've been encountering. It's the memoir type of book where it's, it's an individual who's not writing about their whole life story, but more so just like a very specific focus and experience that happened in the course of their life. And one of the books that I just encountered memoir style was Educated by Tara Westover. It was a phenomenal story and it was just based off of this, this girl who grew up in bumfuck Idaho, right? This was, this was a recent story, true story too. She was part of a family that was deeply religious, but also fiercely separatist. So her father was one of those guys that says, you know, school is, is the devil, school, the government, illuminati, like distrust everything.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  So she came from a family that was very rarely homeschooled, no, no formal education. But she got to a point in her adolescence where she said, you know, I want to go to school. And the book was all about her trajectory from basically being, having no education to getting into BYU, getting honors, going to grad school, getting her doctorate from Harvard University. And this transition from having no education to having the most education. Some of the key tenants there are all about your identity, right? Like who, how do you see yourself? Throughout the course of your transition, your adolescence into your course of your life. And for her, you know, her family always harped on having an education as something that was, you know, untrustworthy, right?

• 45:38Speaker 00

  Like, oh, you're, you're one of them. You're one of those educated folks. And it's one of those books where you have this identity of who, who you think you are and how you see yourself, but also in relation to your closest, you know, friends and family, right? So. How does my family perceive me? How does that affect how I see myself? But it's also about just having the confidence in your own identity to say, hey, this may piss people off. This may rub people the wrong way, but I have enough convictions in myself that this is who I truly am, regardless of the consequences. So I can't recommend that one enough. It's one of those those page turners where you come across an author who's just a fantastic writer and storyteller. So educated, Tara Westover, highly recommended.

• 46:18Chris Williamson?

  Amazing. What's next?

• 46:20Speaker 00

  Shoe Dog. For for those who have followed my page, you know, obviously I do a lot of personal development, you know, business type books. But Shoe Dog falls into one of those books that is just one of absolute page turners. So if anyone who has not read Shoe Dog, it's a personal memoir by Phil Knight, who was the founder of a little company called Nike. Right. And it goes through his his upbringing from how he was a a local track star in Oregon to how he started this fledgling company into a, you know, multi billion dollar enterprise. Right. And that that itself is an interesting story. But if we talk about what makes a book interesting and what really gravitates you, it's it's that writing style. And Phil Knight has one of those unique writing styles where it's it's almost like it's like a vapor, right?

• 47:05Speaker 00

  It's like he's he's going off in every single direction, but it's so eloquent in the essence where you can get what he's saying. But there's so much style and charisma to the way that he writes. So Shoe Dog, definitely add that one to your list, too.

• 47:16Chris Williamson?

  I love it. And then one that might be a little bit less well known from that similar sort of genre before we do a bit of fiction.

• 47:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, one one thing that I would also add to that list, it's it's another recent book similar to that vein about business and personal memoirs was The Ride of a Lifetime by Bob Iger, who was actually just recently stepped down as the CEO and chairman of Disney. Right. So one of these business titans that talks a lot about his upbringing. And this is an interesting point. When you read a lot of these these business and memoir type books, you see a lot of commonalities. You see a lot of similarities between these people who have so much success. And The Ride of a Lifetime is one of those books where these guys just have an insatiable work ethic. They have the confidence, they have the vision, but they also have the wherewithal when they come across failures and they come across life just just kicking them down a peg.

• 48:08Speaker 00

  Having a lot of confidence in yourself to to dust yourself off and and keep going. So ride of a lifetime, Bob Iger, rise of Disney as a company, definitely a great read, too.

• 48:19Chris Williamson?

  That's sick. And now finishing up a couple of fiction books. We've got our daytime reads sorted. We maybe got a couple of nighttime reads as well. What are some some fiction books that you you've read recently that you've enjoyed?

• 48:31Speaker 00

  So there's there's one fiction book that I will always recommend. And this one was was given to me by an old colleague of mine was a book called Watership Down. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that. It's it's it's a story about rabbits.

• 48:45Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 48:45Speaker 00

  Right. So so, yeah, so it's a it's a book about how a flock of rabbits was displaced due to deforestation and their trek across uncharted land, right? And you're thinking, okay, a book about rabbits, how is that relevant? But I think it talks a lot about key tenants of camaraderie, shared mission, courage, right? A lot of these key tenants virtues that you like to see in the hero's journey, right? And it's seeing it's unveiled in these cute cuddly rabbits and and the the constant threat of predators like foxes and and great horned owls, right? The things that you you don't see as a predator, but for you looking at the perspective of a rabbit, think, holy shit, you know, life as a rabbit is pretty hard these days.

• 49:28Speaker 00

  But it's it's just one of those, it's again, one of those stories that's very easy to follow along. But at the same time, like you get some some inspiration and personal reflection from from reading about rabbits.

• 49:39Chris Williamson?

  I like the idea of using fiction as a way to learn lessons that that some personal development books can't teach us. I always use the example about 1984 that it taught me more about appreciating the power of my thoughts than pretty much any other self-development book could have done. Because it's delivered in this like this allegorical weird sort of symbolic way. You know, it's a it's an odd one, but look, man, Jim, it has been so fun. I implore everybody to go and check out at Get Better With Books on

• 50:13Speaker 00

  That's it.

• 50:14Chris Williamson?

  Instagram. When's the YouTube channel going to be live? When and is that Get Better With Books as well?

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Let's also get better with books. Yeah, I got my microphone being shipped from amazon.com this weekend. So I plan on filming, editing and posting my first video this weekend.

• 50:29Chris Williamson?

  So yeah, so it will be in the show notes below. Anything else that you want to plug? Any other things people should go and check out of yours?

• 50:36Speaker 00

  No, that's it. Right now. I just just got the Instagram handle. Get the YouTube coming out. So working on and just keep creating good content and appreciate everybody for the time and the attention.

• 50:45Chris Williamson?

  Bro, it's it's an absolute pleasure. You need to go and check this out. I also have to give a shout out to how patient you are to align books perfectly straight. Like the ability to put books in completely neat lines with all the gaps being exactly the same way is just, you know, that's

• 51:03Speaker 00

  A little bit OCD, but at the same time, gotta gotta put good content out there. IG is very competitive. So take the time to post good pics, baby.

• 51:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I get it, man. Look, Jim, thank you so much. Everyone that's been listening. All of the books that we've just gone through will be linked below in the show notes, every single one of them. So you think I'm gonna go check that out. All linked in the show notes below. You need to go and give Jim a follow at Get Better With Books. But for now, thanks, man. Thank you so much.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  Likewise, Chris. Good chat with you. Be well.