How Love Actually Works - Dr Anna Machin

Anna Machin is an evolutionary anthropologist at Oxford University, a researcher into the role of fatherhood across time and an author. Why do we need love, and what role has it played in our evolution? Love helps us form strong bonds, cooperate, raise children, and build supportive communities. Understanding love’s role in our development can help us see its importance in our lives and relationships. Expect to learn why did love evolve and the difference between love and lust, what pure love actually looks like, why do women tend to cheat and who they tend to cheat with, the role of genetics on who you find attractive, what the dark side of love looks like, if dating apps have changed love and attraction, how certain types of love can be addicting, and much more... - 00:00 Why Did Love Evolve? 04:23 Is Love Just a Neurochemical Motivation? 07:23 Stages of Romantic Love 13:19 Why Humans Kiss 15:51 Love’s Role in Long-Term Relationships 21:23 Do Men & Women Feel Love Differently? 24:49 How Genetics & Environment Impact Love 36:26 Why Do Men & Women Cheat? 43:24 Is Our Mating Ideology Working? 54:40 Balancing Rationality With Feeling Love 1:01:26 Love in Abusive Relationships 1:06:29 Romantic Relationships Vs Best Friends 1:13:43 The Pitfalls of Evolutionary Psychology 1:19:29 How Dating Apps Have Impacted Love 1:27:55 Explaining Parasocial Love 1:34:28 Where to Find Anna - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Nice to see you again. I really enjoyed our first conversation. We talked about dads, the importance of fatherhood. Today, your most recent book, Why We Love, I want to talk about that. Very universal, perhaps one of the most universal things that humans have got.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 0:14Chris Williamson?

  Why did love evolve at all?

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Okay, so love evolved basically in the same way that most thing evolved is because it aids our survival. So humans are arguably the most cooperative species on the planet, both in terms of the number of relationships we can keep going at once, which is about 150, in terms of the duration of those relationships that can last decades, and in terms of the very many different categories of relationships that we have. So we're very cooperative. But cooperation is really hard, as we all know. We all know getting along with our friends, with our family, with our coworkers can be a little bit stressful sometimes. And it would actually be much, much easier to be solitary. But we have to live in a group and we have to get along with with each other to just survive. And so evolution came up with love. Basically,

• 1:00Speaker 01

  it's kind of like a form of biological bribery at the most basic level. So it's it's a set of neurochemicals which motivate and reward you for starting and then maintaining what we call your survival critical relationships. So those relationships that are critical to you, both surviving on a day to day basis, but also passing your genes down to the next generation. So at the most basic level, that is all love is. It's just this biological bribery to make us feel good about doing this really quite difficult thing.

• 1:28Chris Williamson?

  Are there any animals that don't have love? Are there any animals that haven't evolved that?

• 1:35Speaker 01

  It's hard to say because love is a really nebulous concept and it depends how you define it. I think we all have our own definition of love and it depends at what stage you you define it. I think a lot of animals feel what we would call basic love. So all the mammals, for example, experience attachment, all the mammals are underpinned by things like oxytocin and dopamine. You know, all mammals have those sort of caring nurturing relationships, particularly between mothers and offspring. So we would say all mammals experience love. What we get a little Hot in the head about is whether any animals experience human type love, which is a little bit more complicated. And what I find a little bit sad really is, you know, when we just assume all humans feel love. So if I say to you, do you know what love is?

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Have you experienced love? You go, yeah. And I'd go, okay. Um, but with animals, we hold them to a very high level of evidence. And so to actually tell whether an animal experiences human like love, you kind of have some of a check, a checkbox of five different things. So do they experience attachment? Is there um neurochemistry? Does their neurochemistry involve beta endorphin as well? Beta endorphin is a more complex neurochemical that's involved in human love, which we don't see in the lesser mammals. Do they grieve? Which is the loss of love. Uh, do they have friendships? So do they have relationships which are nothing really directly to do with reproduction or passing genes down, just for the hell of it, essentially. And do they experience cognitive empathy? So there are different types of empathy. Um, there's emotional contagion,

• 3:03Speaker 01

  which is just, oh, my God, you scream, I scream. I have no idea why I'm screaming, but something scary. That's a lot of animals have that. There's emotional empathy, which is, I can see you're really upset, but I don't know what to do about it. And then there's cognitive empathy, which is, I can see you're really upset and I'm going to help you in the appropriate way, which is what humans have. So I think if we use those five things, um, then we can say, yeah, somehow higher mammals definitely do. So for example, cetaceans, the dolphins, the whales do, um, gorillas, chimps do. Um, beyond that, it's a little bit tricky to say, dogs might. Um, we're still not sure on the cognitive empathy with dogs, but dogs certainly may experience human levels of love. Um, there's a wonderful effective neuroscientist, unfortunately, he's no longer with us now,

• 3:47Speaker 01

  called Yak Pan Skep. And he spent his whole life researching love. And what he said about human love is, he said, you know, Love is like the cupcake and loads of animals have the cupcake. But what humans have done is they've over decorated the cupcake. They've put lots of rubbish on top, which is mostly the cultural stuff we associate with love. But all that lovely decoration on top isn't actually necessary to experience love. We've just kind of overly complicated it. So I would say, yes, a lot of animals experience love. I think keeping it exclusively for humans and setting this very high bar is maybe not fair. I think.

• 4:22Chris Williamson?

  Going back to the biological bribery, is this just a neurochemical motivation in that way?

• 4:30Speaker 01

  It's a motivation in terms of, yes, so dopamine's evolved and dopamine is the hormone of motivation. It's also a hormone of reward, though. So it's definitely, it involves the dopaminergic system, which is your reward system in your brain. And if you look at the activations that occur in love, certainly the dopaminergic circuit is there. But it's more complicated than that because it involves things like beta endorphin, which is addictive. And that underpins long term human relationships. You need something very, very powerful to underpin a relationship for decades. It involves oxytocin. Oxytocin isn't just about, they call it cuddle hormone, which kind of annoys me. But oxytocin is about orientating you towards social objects in your environment.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  And it also acts on the amygdala to calm the amygdala so that you're more confident about building relationships. And serotonin's evolved, serotonin is about obsessive love. So it's more complicated than just a motivation to go over there and chat to someone. It has this quite complex structure of different roles for different neurochemicals.

• 5:31Chris Williamson?

  But it's bribing you or motivating you in one way or another to do things that perhaps without that soup of neurochemicals, you wouldn't go and do, you wouldn't sacrifice yourself in this way. You wouldn't care as much, you wouldn't be as vigilant, you wouldn't wake up at three in the morning to feed the baby, et cetera, et cetera.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  No, you wouldn't, you wouldn't, because it's just really, really difficult. Because being social, as I'm sure you know, being in a group is actually costly to your survival. You know, it's very stressful being in a group. You don't get to do exactly what you need ideally for yourself every day. You have to coordinate with everybody else. You've got people who are constantly trying to stab you in the back or do one over on you. So you have to spend a hell of a lot of time monitoring everybody else to make sure that everyone's behaving. You exist in a hierarchy, which is going to dictate the access to resources you get. So if you're at the top, fab, you're going to get the best mates, you're going to get the best food, you're going to get the best shelter. If you're at the bottom, you're kind of screwed. So it's really, really hard to do. But humans, mainly because we birth our babies so incredibly early, we need to help

• 6:30Speaker 01

  each other particularly to raise our children. And we talked about fatherhood before, fatherhood's one of the things that started, but we need, we do need that village to help us raise our children. And we need each other to learn everything we need to learn about our complex technological world. So social learning is really important. So we need each other to do that. So it's this balance. We need all these things from each other, but it's so stressful. It's actually quite costly. And it can be quite dangerous. You have to compete. You might not actually come out of it alive. So yes, it's at the most basic level, it's there to go, here we go. I know it's really hard, but I'm going to give you all this lovely stuff and hopefully that'll make you feel better. Obviously, as I can hear people screaming, love is much more complicated than that. But that is the, the reason why it evolved in the first place.

• 7:12Chris Williamson?

  What about the phases of romantic love? Explain the way that love and lust and all of the different systems work.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Okay, so lust and attraction are two entirely separate systems. Lust is driven by a hypothalamus, and it's associated with the sexual needs. And we kind of sometimes conflate attraction and lust in our minds. When we talk about attraction, most people think about romantic attraction. Actually, attraction is a stage that starts all relationships. All attraction is, is being drawn towards somebody out of interest, or out of desire, or whatever it might all be, just simply because you like them. So attraction is a stage that you go through in your friendships. It's, you go through it when you first meet your baby for the first time. That's a stage you go through. So attraction underpins all forms of love. Lust is only there in romantic relationships,

• 8:01Speaker 01

  and it's a very separate area of the brain. So attraction is based in oxytocin and dopamine. And as I said, oxytocin works to orientate you to social beings in your environment and kind of block out distractions. And it also quietens your amygdala, which is the fear centre of your brain, which means that sort of the nagging, confident, sapping voices that can sometimes occur when you're thinking about striking up conversation with somebody. Those are quietens so that you feel more confident, you feel more chilled about doing this quite difficult thing. And dopamine is there to reward you, certainly, but it's also there to give you a bit of a kick up the bum, because oxytocin is lovely, but if you just have it on your, on its own, you probably wouldn't make any efforts at all, because it makes you feel really, really chilled. And so you probably wouldn't make the effort to go across the

• 8:46Speaker 01

  bar or the playground or wherever you are. So we have some dopamine because it's wired into your muscles, it's wired into your motor circuits to go, come on, you've actually got to go and do something. And the other important things about, about dopamine and oxytocin is they make your brain more plastic. So particularly in the areas relating to memory and learning. And when you first meet somebody, think of all the stuff you've got to learn about that person, particularly if you're going to meet them again, you're going to recognise them, you're going to know their name, you're going to know what they're interested in, the sound of their voice, all these sorts of things. So your learning areas and your memory areas become more plastic, which means they're very open to change. And, and you do that very efficiently in those sort of first, seconds, minutes.

• 9:24Chris Williamson?

  So you're being, you're being neurochemically primed to be a good receptive friend.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes. To take all of this on board so that you remember that person, essentially. And so that's what happens in the attraction stage. And attraction initially is entirely unconscious. So in the romantic sense, what we do is we take in lots and lots of sensory information from that person. And, and we're taking in that sensory information because what we're trying to judge from that person is, is this a good potential mate? And so we're going to take in visual information about things like body shape, about facial symmetry, we're gonna hear what they're saying, what the tone of their voice is, we're going to, if you're a woman, you're going to smell whether they're genetically compatible. So you men can't do that, women can. And you're going to take in all this information and it goes through this very complex algorithm in your brain. And what that algorithm is

• 10:13Speaker 01

  trying to test is, yeah, how valuable is this person as a mate? How reproductively successful are they going to be? And that's known as their mate value. We all have a mate value on our head. It's kind of like financial value in the stock market. And we will be calculating that using the indicators we've looked at to work out, okay, how reproductively successful is this person actually going to be? And if they're a good, a good bet, if they're good, then basically you kind of get the three cherries on the slot machine. And oxytocin and dopamine flood an area of your brain called the nucleus accumbens, which is incredibly unconscious, very, very deep. And it's simply there to start this, kickstart this process and it's entirely unconscious.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  And that whole process of sensory intake, of algorithm chundering away of oxytocin and dopamine, that's like nanoseconds of time. And then at that point, you know, hopefully you cross over and you say hello. But at some point, that, that signal moves from the unconscious brain into the conscious brain. And we have kind of both things going at the same time where you start to, you know, consciously contemplate this person. Oh, you know, thinking things like, oh my God, they've got lovely eyes or actually their tone of voice is quite annoying. Or, oh, do I agree with what they're saying? Or my friends thing, or my family thing, all those sorts of things. And then attraction becomes an unconscious and conscious process, basically.

• 11:28Chris Williamson?

  Dig into that genetic compatibility thing for

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:32Chris Williamson?

  super sniffer skill that women have that men don't.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. So what that is, is there's an area of your genetic code known as the major histocompatibility complex. And that underpins the diversity of your immune response to disease. Rather bizarrely, some of the genes in that complex also underpin your sense of smell. Go figure. And what women can do is they can actually smell how close a male's set of MHC genes are to their own. So if they're close to their own, they will not like the smell of that person. Because they're too close, it's suggestive of inbreeding. And actually, what you want for your child is the most diverse immune response you can have.

• 12:17Speaker 01

  So you need your partner to have an MHC complex as far away from yours as possible. And so what we find with women is they are able to smell that and they can, they can tell. So it's really funny, you would never consciously know you're doing it. But sometimes, you know, women will say to me, I met him, he was perfect in lots of different ways. It's just, just something, just something that I can't put my finger on, but didn't work for me. And that's that. We think women can do it and men can't. Either because they've evolved to do it or they've retained it. We don't know whether mammals can do it, obviously, because you can't really tell. Or they've retained it and men have lost it. We think because for a woman making the mistake of inbreeding is much more serious because she's then, if she becomes pregnant, going to be out

• 12:59Speaker 01

  of the game for nine months, doing in our evolutionary past, something very dangerous, which is be pregnant and give birth. And so the risk to her of death is high and therefore, you know, you kind of have to be pretty sure that this baby that you're, that you're gonna birth is going to be strong and is going to be healthy, essentially. So we think women can do it and men can't for that reason.

• 13:19Chris Williamson?

  Is that why humans kiss as well?

• 13:23Speaker 01

  Possibly. We actually don't know. Not all humans kiss in the romantic sense, actually. All humans kiss, but only a hundred percent of kissing across the cultures occurs between mothers and children. So there are some cultures where you don't romantically kiss. So there's always been this massive debate about why did we evolve kissing? Because some primates kiss, but they kind of, they don't do it consistently and they don't seem to do it in any particularly sort of regular context. So it's quite hard. So chimps, you'll see chimps kissing, but it's not really quite sure what they're doing. Some theories have been evolved in mums and children to sort of pass masticated food. The other thing is that, yes, maybe it is something

• 14:07Speaker 01

  to do with getting closer to people and smelling them. Though, having said that, you know, mammals, other mammals manage to do that without kissing. So why do we need to do that? Some people think it's something to do with testing the health of the person, tasting the health of the other person. And something, some people say, yeah, it's just a really good bonding thing. Your lips have got a lot of sensory, lots of nerve endings and therefore by kissing, you, you, you know, you might be increasing in terms of the bonding, in terms of oxytocin and things like that, because it's touch. But do you know what? Nobody actually knows the answers to why we kiss.

• 14:40Chris Williamson?

  I think it's really interesting, the compatibility, I think it was actually Mr Dunbar himself, who I read, I can't remember what it was I was reading, I was reading something of his, and he was talking about the evolution of kissing and why it was potentially, then I think he posited, maybe it's increasing proximity, it's allowing you to check for compatibility between immune systems, but yeah, it's so ubiquitous, maybe you're right, maybe you're right, I didn't realise that not all human cultures do kiss.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 15:09Chris Williamson?

  But at least many do.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Many do, and it's culturally something that, yeah, I would say probably 80, 85% of cultures kiss in the romantic context, so it's certainly something that's there.

• 15:21Chris Williamson?

  What are the ones that don't? Do you know, do you know any of the ones that don't?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  I know that there are some in terms of, there are some cultures in Africa that don't, and there are some cultures, I think, in South America that don't, but we don't really know why. They do kiss their children.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  So I don't know why they don't, but it's just not seen as a sort of a sexual romantic thing. So it's definitely got a cultural undertone to it, and whether we've just all, you know, learnt to do it, I don't know.

• 15:51Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about the role of love in maintaining a romantic relationship long term, in dealing with the vicissitudes and jealousy and concern and male parental uncertainty.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Okay, so love is different, obviously, to attraction, it's a different set of neurochemicals, and they are, as I say, they're unique to humans and some of the higher primates. So these are the chemicals that underpin really long-term relationships, because oxytocin is great if you are quite a short-lived little mammal, like a little vole or a little mouse, which is, which is the creatures that were studied to discover oxytocin in this context. But the problem with it underpinning long-term relationships is, first of all, it doesn't last very long. A hit of oxytocin lasts maybe 30 minutes, and secondly, we grow tolerant to it. So over time, the hit of oxytocin you're going to get from someone is going to lessen,

• 16:46Speaker 01

  and that's not going to underpin something in the long term. So we needed something that you didn't grow tolerant to. The other issue with oxytocin is it's only released in any large quantities in relationships which are associated with reproduction. So that's in the mother-child, father-child relationship. And in the sexual relationship, it's increased, it's, sorry, it's released, for example, in quite large quantities during orgasm and during during sexual activity. It is released in friendships, but at a much lower level. And the problem with humans is actually the vast majority of our relationships in that 150 network aren't sexual, aren't reproductive, aren't with children. And so we need a chemical that's decoupled from reproduction to enable us to to maintain those relationships. And that's where beta endorphin comes in.

• 17:31Speaker 01

  And beta endorphin was discovered actually in the primates. It's it's what's released when primates groom each other. And, you know, all the primatologists out there will know that grooming isn't isn't a utilitarian activity. It's not about hygiene, it's about bonding. So primates groom when they've had an argument, they groom to underpin alliances, they groom to make friendships. And beta endorphin is what's released. And so when we knew that, there's a group at Cambridge who discovered that, then Robin and I at that point were like, okay, well, this is much more likely candidate to be the underpinning of human love than oxytocin is. And so we began to research the role for beta endorphin in in human love.

• 18:13Speaker 01

  And we've, you know, spent many years doing that and done lots and lots of scans and things like that. And that's that's the answer is that beta endorphin is beta endorphin is the is the neurochemical of long term love. It's your body's opiate. It evolved in the first instance as your body's painkiller, so it's what's released when you hurt yourself. But over time, it's been co-opted into the social realm. And it's now what is released when you do something social. And there's lots of activities decoupled from reproduction that produce it, such as laughter, touch, exercise, dancing, singing, you know, even having a hot curry bizarrely. There's lots of things that that release beta endorphin. So so it's really good for that social context that you can get it released from.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  And as it's, and we don't grow tolerant to it over time. It it remains a very potent chemical. So so that's what's underpins human love in terms of neurochemistry. But obviously, there are many other things going on there. You've got the psychological elements of of human love. So you've got things like attachment, but you've got, you know, lots of things around sort of love languages and maintenance behaviours and empathy and trust and reciprocity and all these other things which sit in your neocortex. So human love is very complicated. When people say to me, what is love? I tend to say it's really hard to define. It depends what level of explanation you'd like me to answer that at. But what I will say is, very broadly, it has two dimensions, which is

• 19:37Speaker 01

  what sets it apart. It has a biological dimension, which is the neurochemistry, the neural activation, the genetics, that kind of thing, the psychology. And then it has a social dimension. And that's all that cultural stuff. So that's religion, politics, society, media, education, family stories, that kind of thing. And that also impacts how you personally would define love.

• 20:02Chris Williamson?

  How much has our conception of love been molested by culture, do you think?

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Quite powerfully. Culture can overwhelm biology quite easily. Culture is very powerful. And culture can tell you to work against what your biology is telling you to do. Very definitely. There are many societies in the world where there are rules around acceptable love, or what is, you know, which drive very strongly against our biological drive to to experience love. So culture is very powerful. And it certainly does underpin a lot of how people define love. So if you ask the question, what is love around the world, you will get some very different answers. I mean, we obviously in the West are kind of enthralled to the concept of romantic love, for example, if we look at it in that context. There are many cultures

• 20:52Speaker 01

  in the world who don't believe in the concept of romantic love. For them, love between a man and a woman might be more spiritual. It might be more centered simply on the family. It might be actually seen as a form of self sacrifice. In some countries, it's actually seen as being quite a negative thing, something to do with sort of unrequited love and and kind of losing yourself in the other person. So it really does depend the culture you've been brought up in, the rules you've been told about what love is and what is acceptable when it comes to love.

• 21:23Chris Williamson?

  Is love different, romantic love, different for men and women? Do men experience love in a different way? Do women experience love in a different way?

• 21:31Speaker 01

  It's a, it's a myth that this is amazing. Quite often I get asked that question. And people say to me, well, you know, we've got all this thing that men are emotionally intelligent and da, da, da, da, da, and all that kind of stuff. No, if you look at the averages, there are more differences within the sexes in terms of how someone experiences romantic love than there are between the sexes. So if I put somebody in my scanner and nobody tells me what sex they are. I would not be able to tell from looking at the screen when we were doing a love experiment, for example, I couldn't possibly tell. So the activations are the same, the neurochemistry is the same. What influences how individuals experience love is much more their genetics, which are not sex linked,

• 22:11Speaker 01

  um, their attachment profile, um, and a lot to do with their upbringing. So all of that is much more influential than what your biological sex is. Now, some of that will be influenced along gender lines. We do, um, tell stories differently to boys and girls about what love is. And it's, there's a really interesting study that I quoted in the book, which was looking at schoolchildren and asking them at the age of five to draw a picture of, you know, romantic love. And all the kids, regardless of their, their sex or gender, draw, you know, people happily holding hands and there's butterflies and it's all lovely and da, da, da. And then after the age of 11, when kind of puberty's kicked in and maybe we've had a little bit of gender, you know,

• 22:54Speaker 01

  um, cultural gender sort of bias coming on, then the boys all do pictures of big, strong man looking after put small, weak woman. And then the girls are still doing butterflies and hearts and, and that's quite, and that's quite. No, but you know, it's really powerful. It's really powerful what we tell boys. They should feel when they're in love and how they should act when they're in love. But actually, if you look at their brains, they're no different. It's just very heavily gendered.

• 23:23Chris Williamson?

  What do you think is the subtext that we tell young males about their role in love?

• 23:31Speaker 01

  That they're the protector, that they're the protector and they're the rock. And therefore you shouldn't really show emotion. You shouldn't, um, become involved in, yes, the sort of emotional extremes of love. You should be very. Balanced, very controlled and and you are there to protect the female essentially. And I think that's what we tell boys about love and that, you know, showing emotion, being upset by love or being passionate about love or whatever these things is is a female, a feminine thing to do. And to cry about love is a feminine thing to do. And I think that's the stories we tell. Because if you go to other cultures where they don't have those stories, men are very open and emotional about about love.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Not just love in the romantic sense, but love, love for their friends. You know, you will see, for example, in some Arab cultures, men holding hands and kissing each other. And it's all very passionate, it's all very out in the open and very emotional. And you would not see men, for example, in the UK doing that. Because that's, that's not what we do. But it's not because they're incapable of it. It's because they've been, they've been told, you, you don't do that.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  You know, so it, love is, is pretty heavily gendered, definitely.

• 24:48Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about the genetic upbringing and detachment contribution.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Hmm. Okay. So it's, it's hard to say exactly what the balance is. As everyone knows, there's a quite, there's a very complex interaction between genetics and the environment, particularly when it comes to love, because the genes that underpin our social cognition and the neurochemistry I spoke about are many, there's many of them. Even on the oxytocin receptor gene alone, which is one of the major genes that influences how you experience love and how you feel. You know, there are 26 point mutations on there that affect how you experience love or how you behave. Or for example, how skilled you are at certain things to do with love, such as empathy. So in itself, that's really complex. And then you've got serotonin, you've got dopamine. You know, you've got beta endorphin and they've also all got their little point mutations going on.

• 25:39Speaker 01

  And there's probably many, many more point mutations out there we haven't even found yet. So it's very, very complex. Some of them have more power than others.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And some of them are what we call cumulative. So there are five point mutations on the oxytocin receptor gene, which impact how good you are at empathising. That empathy, as I mentioned, cognitive empathy, is one of the hallmarks of human love. But how adept you are at it, how adept you are at reading people's emotions and meeting that need is partly under genetic control. And of these point mutations, there are there are five beneficial versions and there are five which means it's harder for you to do. So the more of the beneficial versions you carry, the better you are at empathising, for example. There are other areas on the oxytocin receptor gene which are associated with your motivation to want to be in relationships.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  And so some people carry a version where they're very motivated to be in relationships. They tend to have a lot of different relationships, friendships, family relationships, you know, love, romantic love relationships. They tend to find them really satisfying. They're the kind of thing that that grounds them and makes them happy. Whereas other people who carry a version of that gene, of that that point mutation, find relationships quite hard. They tend not to be that motivated to be in them. And actually, when they're in relationships, they find them quite stressful.

• 26:54Chris Williamson?

  I wonder if you could do a self-report for people. There must be an introversion, extroversion scale, or maybe you could just do a survey of, do you find time with people to be revitalising? Or do you get your energy from being on your own? And then to match that up with this.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  Exactly. See, this is genetic influence then. Exactly, exactly. Because the oxytocin, as I said, what the oxytocin receptor gene does is it orientates you to social people and it gives you confidence and makes you feel chilled. Now, what it sounds like with those people who find it difficult is that that gene, it might influence things like the density of oxytocin receptors. So for example, you just obviously don't have as many oxytocin receptors. So oxytocin just does not have the same effect on you. So you are less motivated, you're getting less of a benefit, you're getting less of this lovely chilled feeling and less of the confidence. And that might be what's affecting you. And as you say, that might be associated with those personality traits of introversion, for example. So it's really interesting, the genetics. But as I said, there's a very complicated

• 27:53Speaker 01

  interaction with your environment, because the reason why your environment is so influential on.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  How you behave in relationships, how you feel is because the human babies have a very vast, quick period of brain growth after birth of about two years. And that's because we're born too early with a very incomplete brain. And the bit that's not complete is the prefrontal cortex, which is where your social cognition sits. And so that means it's very susceptible to the environment in which it's raised. And we know that now looking at um brain scans of children who are brought up in both nurturing environments and also a neglectful environment. So if you're brought up in a nurturing environment, you get very, very high connectivity, you get very dense grey and white matter in that area. If we look at your amygdala, it's small, it's it's not hyper activated. So

• 28:40Speaker 01

  you're not constantly detecting risk, for example. Uh you tend to have high circulating oxytocin. Um so you're kind of, you've got this wonderful foundation that you've been given by this nurturing environment.

• 28:51Chris Williamson?

  And this is, this is largely in independent of your genetic predisposition.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  This is independent of your, yes, this sits, this sits on top of it. Uh whereas if we looked at, looked at a child who maybe was neglected or even not neglected, but had insecure attachments, intrusive parenting, all that kind of thing. Then you can see kind of, you, well, in extreme places, you get neuronal death. So actually, that person just does not have the density of grey and white matter in there. It does not have the architecture which is going to provide the foundation. They tend to have over large uh amygdalas which are constantly activated. They tend to have very high levels of cortisol, these sorts of things. So you can see the impact the environment's had. And we know also that children who are brought up in those environments go on to struggle with the relationships. They go on to have more risk of antisocial behaviour, that kind

• 29:39Speaker 01

  of thing. Um whereas children who are brought up in nurturing environments, there's much less risk of that. So, but having said that, I would have said maybe 10 years ago, if you'd said to me and my colleagues, attachment. So attachment is a psychological mindset um to do with uh attachment relationships are very intense, they're developmentally significant, uh they're marked by particular characteristics such as separation anxiety, desire for proximity, that kind of thing. And they're quite rare, but they're very important. And your attachment profile. Is important in influencing how you behave when you're in love and how you feel. But we always thought that it was entirely environmental, that really how you turned up, because that's kind of how it looks, to be honest, you know.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Neglectful environment, much more like to have insecure attachment going into life. You know, nurturing environment, much more like to have secure attachment, be, you know, good at having relationships, all that kind of stuff. But then on, again, on the oxytocin receptor gene, a team, not ours, found

• 30:36Speaker 01

  a set of genes which are known as being differentially susceptible. And what these genes are is they, or these point mutations, they influence how powerful the environment is on your attachment profile.

• 30:51Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  So if you carry a version of this gene, which means that your environment is less effective in terms of altering your attachment profile. If you're in a really nurturing environment, then that means obviously that the environment, you're not going to have the same powerful influence of it being secure. But what it does mean is if you're in a neglectful environment, that environment will have much less of an effect upon ultimately your attachment relationships. When you get older, your ability to navigate relationships. And we kind of call them the armour plated genes. Because we would meet people who would come into the lab, and I meet people at public talks even, who come up to me and they've had the worst upbringing you've heard, like really awful.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  But they are navigating their social relationships so well, completely stable, completely secure, doing really well. And we used to joke, we'd be like, wow, they must have some amazing genes. Because there's something going on there, but, and this team found that. And they found that actually, these people who carry these armour plated genes, they are kind of protected from that environment. And they can kind of sail through that environment kind of unscathed. Because they have these genes, which means, no, actually, these genes are more powerful than that environment is. So it's, it's really, really interesting. And I think we will probably find more genes and more point mutations which are differentially susceptible. Because the more you dig into the genetics, the more complicated it gets.

• 32:13Chris Williamson?

  Well, it's this wonderful interplay between genetic predisposition and then environmental.

• 32:21Chris Williamson?

  Reinforcement, I suppose, especially given that

• 32:26Chris Williamson?

  the genes that you are given, presuming that you live in the household with your biological parents that gave you the gene, the genetic material that you're made from, they have likely, on average, the traits that you have inherited genetically, but they manifest behaviorally. So if you have the genes for anxiety, you tend to lean toward anxiety in terms of your genetic predisposition. You're going to grow up in a household that is likely to behaviorally be more anxious. So you end up with this sort of very strange ever increasing.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  But it's also, yeah, and it's why, it's why problems cross generations. Partly because of that, partly because of that, though obviously we have to remember that depending on recessive dominant genes, the fact you're anxious doesn't mean necessarily that that expressed itself in your, in your parents. But that's why things cross generations, because if you live in an abusive household as a child and you, and you build this architecture in your brain that's not particularly healthy and not particularly helpful, then that is, that is the brain that's going to go on to raise your children.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  And you're going to be that you don't have the skills because your parents didn't have the skills that is imprinted in your brain. You simply don't have the brain architecture. And then you're going to pass it on. So, and that's why a lot of people in this field work very hard to break, break that cross generational problem because, and intervene.

• 33:46Chris Williamson?

  I certainly think from my generation's perspective, a lot of the guys that I talk to almost see it from the ascended millennials job is to be the kind of breakwater or the breakpoint in between, you know, granddad was in the Falklands or Vietnam or something and dad was a classic boomer parent who kind of didn't really do much of the self-work and didn't have access to the things maybe he would have done, you know, if he'd had access to the school of life and de Landebotton's psychotherapy insights, maybe he true would have, you know, done the self-work and all the rest of it. But a lot of, a lot of my friends and I think me too, um, kind of see it as, all right,

• 34:29Chris Williamson?

  we have genuinely been given tools that allow us to kind of. Make a big dam in front of a lot of patterns that I think have been passed down generationally and how much of that has come from a genetic predisposition, how much of that has been reinforced by the environment that we've grown up in, kind of doesn't really matter. You have, if you're able to listen to a podcast like this, you have the agency to be able to, okay, I'm about to have a kid, I've got nine months as a dad or as a mum, time for me to learn, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to read enough books, I'm going to do the self-work, I'm going to, you know, prepare to stop this weird repetition, this sort of cycle that has continued to happen for god knows how long.

• 35:13Chris Williamson?

  And this is why one of my friends has a really great answer to the question, if you could go for dinner with four people alive or dead, who would it be? And he says that he wants to go with all four of his great grandfathers, because he thinks that he would learn way more from being sat around them than he would from being sat around Isaac Newton or Churchill or Einstein or someone, because he wants to see where do I come from? And he wants, oh, that's, that's that fear, that's the, that's the part of me that makes me really worried and concerned, that's the social anxiety bit coming through, that's the rebel in me, that's where that comes, oh my god, that's from grandad Tim or whatever. And I just thought that's such a cool, a cool insight.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  It is, and it also shows the huge power of the human brain for change, because that's one thing, because when I, when I talk about this at talks and, and the impact of upbringing on brain structure and all that kind of thing, and you, you always get people who are like, oh my god, you know, panic, that it's determined, and it's not, because the human brain is hugely plastic. And actually, if you, if you do the work, sometimes it's much, much harder for some people, sometimes it's a bit easier, it kind of depends, but you know, you can change that pattern, and you can change that pattern within yourself, because the human brain is very open to changing if you give it the work.

• 36:26Chris Williamson?

  Getting back to romantic relationships, cheating, why, why do men cheat? What's in it for them?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Well, wider men and women cheat, same reason. They cheat because ultimately it's about passing your genes down the generations. So, human males are in this position where we're in, in most societies, we're in like a monogamous structure. And from a sort of genetic reproductive success point of view, that's quite constricting. Because you know, you just have this one female and you're going to put everything into them and they're going to bring, you know, birth your baby and that's how your genes are going to get down the generation. But you know, if you're looking at a chimpanzee male, he's there spreading it everywhere. You know, he's going to have a hell of much higher reproductive success than you are because

• 37:17Speaker 01

  he's in a multi male, multi female group and he can just, you know, have sex multiple times a day and be the father to multiple, multiple babies at the same time. And so really, that's kind of the way monogamous species deal with that problem, is that they have affairs. And we see it even in the most monogamous, you know, I used to work with a, with a professor at UCL who studied gibbons, which is the monogamous primate. And he was like, no, they're not, they are literally always sneaking away behind rocks to, you know, have sex with other, other, you know, partners who aren't, who aren't in their monogamous pair. Because that's, from an evolutionary point of view, that's how you're going to increase your reproductive success, particularly if you're a male, because literally sperm is not worth anything.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  And if you're pretty damn sure that that baby can be raised without your input, great. You've got, you've got some genes there going down another family tree, as well as the ones that are in your, in your committed relationship. For women, it's slightly different. And for women, the reason they do it, because obviously, once they're pregnant, they're pregnant, is to get better genes. It's just, you know, that's, that's the evolutionary drive to be unfaithful, is because you've obviously got this wonderful investing male here, who's probably going to be a great dad, he's going to protect, provide, be nurturing, do all those wonderful, wonderful things. But hey, maybe his genes aren't so great. So I'm actually going to go and have an affair over here with this person who's really good looking and I'm going to become pregnant with him.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  And you know, in a ideal world, he, you know, investing guy doesn't find out and they'll get the best of both worlds. I get some really cracking genes, but I also get somebody who's going to commit and raise this child alongside me. So from an evolutionary point of view, being unfaithful makes perfect sense. Because ultimately, your job on this earth, from an evolutionary point, is to increase, maximise your reproductive success. As far as you can.

• 39:04Chris Williamson?

  It sounds like we're straying toward here is dual mating hypothesis versus mate switching. What, I know that this has kind of been up in the air, it was one way, then it was the other way. And now maybe it's going back another way. What's the current state of the literature? Have you got any idea where we're at, whether dual mating or mate switching is currently in ascendancy?

• 39:25Speaker 01

  I don't think we're, because you get two very strong sort of schools of thought, really. I mean, I'm definitely, I think, maybe because I come from a primate behavioural background. I'm very much a dual mating person, I think. I think you will, I don't think we've come down on our side. And it might be that they're both right and it's a mixed methodology and it depends on the individual. Because you will observe both in humans. So I don't think necessarily there's one answer or there's another answer. But ultimately, it's what works in your circumstances and in your environment at that time. With the basis of your drive is to maximise your reproductive success. So how are you going to do that?

• 40:02Chris Williamson?

  Does that mean that women, on average, tend to have affairs with men that are better looking?

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:10Chris Williamson?

  Than their current.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  On average, on average, yes. They tend to go out with men who are, who, so one of the major measures of genetic strength is facial asymmetry. So we are genetically programmed. If we, if our genes were left to, you know, express themselves in the phenotype in us without any environmental challenges, no stresses, nothing. We would be symmetrical, we're a bilaterally symmetrical being. But when you're in the womb, particularly and you're developing, they get knocked off course. Because you know, your mum might be stressed, you might be ill, whatever it might be. So, so none of us are symmetrical, but some people are pretty damn close.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  And those are the people who managed to go through all this environmental turmoil and still come out with, because the genes were strong, being pretty close to symmetry. And those are the people we tend to find most attractive. And what you will see on average with women is if you look at the facial asymmetry of their partner, you look at the facial asymmetry of the person they had the affair with. The person they had the affair with is more attractive, objectively. It doesn't mean that actually that person with the lovely, close to symmetry face is actually the better mate, because they're probably not. If we look at who people end up with, they tend to end up with people not who are extremely close to symmetry. They tend to send up with people who are a little bit more average, because that tends to go alongside other things,

• 41:33Speaker 01

  particularly for men, things like provision and protection and all that sort of thing. But yeah, if you look at, if you look at it on average, that's what women tend to do.

• 41:40Chris Williamson?

  What about the role of cheating among men, given that we need to account for drops in testosterone, as we learned last time, when they get into a committed relationship, when they get married, and then especially when they have children? So, you know, there is a sort of Chad to Dad pipeline that goes on from a testosterone perspective, and that is going to reduce a desire for sexual variety. I'm going to guess not entirely, and not in all men, probably, but I'm going to guess that the sort of classic male Lothario, that you may use an example of

• 42:20Chris Williamson?

  a single guy to then port across onto men that are married with kids, you're not quite talking about two different species, but you're talking about a little sort of splinter faction away from the the original one.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, you are, absolutely. And but I think we need to be aware that whilst the evolutionary drive to cheat is is based in testosterone. Testosterone, yes, is the hormone of mate selection. That's what it's there for. It's there to help you select a mate, and it's there to help you compete for a mate. There are other things that come into whether or not a man is going to cheat or not. One of those, for example, is his upbringing. So was he brought up in a in a culture or in a family where cheating was something that men did? Was his father faithful? If your father's unfaithful, you are more likely to be unfaithful. So it's also to do with those cultural messages we get, and also your upbringing in terms of, so it's not just testosterone that

• 43:19Speaker 01

  will drive you to have an affair. There are many other things that come into it as well.

• 43:24Chris Williamson?

  I had a fascinating conversation a couple of months ago, talking about mating ideologies over time. And it was just so, Mads Larsson, he's from some Finnish Swedish Scandi place. And he was just so, so great. And that really got me thinking about the biological and cultural mismatch when it comes to our sort of mating preferences, that we have this sexual redistribution policy, which is one man with one woman. And that means that kind of, in the best scenario, everybody gets somebody. And that's good, because it means that you have a populace which is going to continue

• 44:05Chris Williamson?

  to reproduce. And you're not going to have a ton of upset disgruntled men running around pushing over cars and setting fighter houses and doing stuff like that. And yet, it seems like, at best, humans are serial monogamous, serially monogamous, and at worst are closer to chimps and bonobos and gibbons.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And this is the problem. I mean, I write a whole chapter on it in my book, under the title exclusive, because we have this, like, there are many, particularly in the West, we, yes, we have this monogamous model in society, where there's one man, or one woman, or two people to the exclusion of everybody else. Now, humans aren't actually, as in fact, no species says, purely monogamous. We're just not. What monogamy is, is to a large part, a societal construct that's been placed upon our biological behaviour, in a way to try and constrain it. Because if we all acted like chimps, and we all just followed our biological drive and did whatever we wanted

• 45:11Speaker 01

  to do, it would be chaos. And what a structured society, a civil society does not want is chaos. What we want is to be predictable. We want all the masses to be predictable, so that the people in power can work out what you're going to do next. And so one of the ways you can do that is you can put rules around um relationships and you can formalise them with marriage and you can, you know, say lots of legal frameworks. So you, for example, you can't split up without going through the courts properly because we all have to keep control of everybody's reproductive relationships. So we can predict what's going on and everybody stays within their box essentially. And that's what monogamy is in most societies is it's just been placed upon us by society.

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Because that by, because as you say, at least, you know, the rate of monogamy of, sorry, um, being unfaithful is is high. Because actually, that's more of our biological drive is to do that. And this is really, I spoke to a lot of polyamorous for my book. And polyamory gets a bad name. Uh, if you ask a lot of people about what they think of polyamory, they see it as immoral. They see it as people who are, you know, have massive sex drives and um can't control their sexual urges and all this sort of stuff, um, and it's corrupting. And actually, if you speak to them, they say, well, actually, what we're doing is we are acknowledging, it's very moral because we are acknowledging what humans do.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  And what humans do is they have quite often more than one romantic relationship at once. So what we are saying is we're going to acknowledge that. We're going to say um that this happens, we're going to be open about it. We're not going to creep around behind people's backs. We're going to put in place rules about being respectful of each other and rules about how we balance everybody's needs in this particular complex of relationships. And we're going to have open communication so that everybody knows where they stand. And so in a way, what they're saying is actually we are reflecting what for a lot of people is the natural state.

• 47:09Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  And that is, that is actually how we should behave. And so it's really interesting.

• 47:14Chris Williamson?

  They've created like paleo relationships.

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, in a way, yeah, they have. They've sort of said, this is actually how most people behave, but most people pretend it's not happening and actually cause huge pain because they lie about it. Um, and it's really interesting. And actually, I think particularly this this younger generation are much more open about that. You know, there's a lot of this consensual non-monogamy um idea about the fact that actually. A lot of people don't find being monogamous particularly natural and they are fighting against their urge, their biological urge to remain within this quite constrained societal structure. And therefore, actually, I'm going to be open about that and we're going to find somebody else who's happy with that and be with them and be with other people. And I think it's interesting.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  I mean, polyamory isn't for everybody. Obviously, it rears its head in terms of jealousy. And jealousy is something that comes from the fact that humans do have to couple up for a period of time after you've had a child, just to make sure that child survives. And that's where jealousy comes from. But for some people, it works really, really well.

• 48:22Chris Williamson?

  What about the opposite of that, the aromantics?

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Aromantics are a really interesting group of people who have had a really bad press and are quite difficult to reach. I was really lucky to speak to a few for my book. Aromantic people, the view that people have on them is that they are very cold. Because they assume that when you say someone's aromantic, they don't experience any sort of love. And actually, they do. They just don't experience romantic love. So they experience platonic love, very much so they have love for family, love for friends, love for community, love for their pets, love for God, whatever it might be. They just do not experience romantic love. And in most cases, they're also asexual. So they do not feel sexual attraction. And they are a fascinating group of people.

• 49:07Speaker 01

  We haven't done a lot of what we would call invasive scientific research in terms of genetics or in terms of scanning as yet on that particular population, because they are very sensitive to being looked at in that way, because they're nervous about how the results would be seen. But having spoken to them, it shows how obsessed we are with romantic love. And we place it at the pinnacle and we really think it's the be all and end all of everything. So somebody could have the most loving relationships in their lives, like a social network that's overflowing with love. But if you don't have romantic love, then you're a bit weird. And that's how they're seen. They're seen as a bit weird. And it's bizarre, because they have things called platonic life partnerships, which is

• 49:51Speaker 01

  they will build a life with somebody, they will even have children with somebody, but it's based on platonic, rather than romantic love. And for me, it's very powerful because they tell us two things. First of all, how imbued our society is with romantic love, how difficult it is to live in a world which references romantic love so often when you don't feel it. That's hard. That's very exclusionary. And secondly, the fact that we think there's a hierarchy of love with romantic love at the top of it, and that's the most effective love, that's the most powerful love, that's the one which is the best for your health and the best for your longevity and the best for everything else. And actually, it's not. That's just some cultural rubbish we've been told and we've swallowed. Actually, there is no hierarchy. It's flat. And what we need

• 50:36Speaker 01

  to embrace as humans is how lucky we are to be able to love in so many different ways. You know, we have so many different ways.

• 50:43Chris Williamson?

  You did mention that there's kind of a hierarchy neurochemically between sexual relationships and father, child, mother, child, that those seem to be the most intense, at least when it comes to what our body is providing us, or at least what our brain is providing us with. So I don't know, maybe that does seem to make sense a little bit that you would look at a friendship as a second class.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  But it's actually, in terms of when we look at things like, it's very hard to compare people's feelings of love. So you would say to somebody, what's the most powerful love you've experienced? And they will say, yeah, with my child, for example. But then you'll say to somebody else who hasn't got children, you know, what's the most powerful love you've experienced? They'll say with my god. Now, it's very hard to know whether those two things are anywhere the same, whether they're in the same ballpark. When we look at, and you can't really measure love from like the intensity on a scanner screen. It doesn't work like that. It's not like a dose response. And you can get just as big a hit of beta endorphin, for example, from having a really good, I don't know, dance with your friends as you can from hugging your baby or whatever. So it's very

• 51:55Speaker 01

  hard to say that one is more powerful than the other. The only argument you would have for them being more more important is because they are the reproductive ones. They are the ones that that evolution says maybe are the more important because those are the ones that are directly going to pass genes down the generations from reproduction and from raising your children. But when we look at things like health benefits, um, in terms of their their effect upon your longevity, upon your life satisfaction, it really doesn't matter what sort of love you have for those for those particular measures. You know, we do know that the relationships you have are the biggest factor in your mental and physical health, your longevity and your survival. Absolutely. But what sort of love that is doesn't seem to matter that much.

• 52:41Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Going back to the non-monogamy thing, sort of this uh battle that we have culturally and biologically, what's a beta marriage? I'd never heard of this before.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  It's like a beta test. So a beta marriage, this was an idea that that's kind of comes raises its head every now and then. And it's to do with the fact that we never kind of expected to live this long, you know. So the idea that you would have a marriage and it would last 60 years. People are like, oh, that sounds. So you can have things called beta marriages, which is they're kind of looked at in two ways. Either they're like a practice marriage, so like a beta test. So you're going to run this marriage and probably you're restricted for like five years, 10 years. And then at the end of it, you can both walk away. There's no formal divorce. It's like a it's like a, you know, yeah, a limited contract, you know. Um, and then you'll both walk away and maybe you've learnt something about yourself, or you've learnt something about them, or you might

• 53:38Speaker 01

  renew it for another 10 years, who knows. So so some people see it as like a test, other people see it just as all marriages should have break clauses, like a lease. And like after five years, you should be able to go, no, it's not working. Let's just leave with what we came with. No expensive divorce, I'm off. And that's a beta marriage.

• 53:58Speaker 01

  It all sounds a little bit cold and objective to me, to be honest, because you know, the whole love is a neurochemical cocktail of passion and amazingness and you don't just suddenly switch that off one day and go, oh, it's absolutely fine. I'm just going to cut that now. But yeah, every now and then, you know, it rears its head as an idea.

• 54:19Chris Williamson?

  It's the same, in part similar to what I think about surrogacy, that, you know, being pregnant doesn't just make a child, it makes a mother. And the, just because you've been paid 70 grand to do this.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean you cut it off. No.

• 54:37Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. Talk to me, you know, you mentioned with appropriate scientific rigor and restraint and rationality today, kind of what ancestral setup for mating was, about how love actually appears in the human system. But phenomenologically, it doesn't feel like any of that's happening, right? It's this, you're carried away by this wonderful roller coaster of things. You're a mother, at least two kids maybe, but you've probably got more now. How do you, as someone who, you know, is swimming through the world

• 55:18Chris Williamson?

  of love at the moment, how have you learned to blend some of the insights of the more kind of rational, cognitive, sterile learnings about love with what it means to be a human and to be in love and to feel it and to navigate it?

• 55:37Speaker 01

  I think because, actually, the more, because people ask me quite often, because you study love, has it kind of lost its magic for you? Because you can kind of get, okay, I know exactly what's happening in your brain. First of all, I don't know exactly what's happening in your brain. Yeah, exactly. I mean, first of all, I don't, we probably know like 10% of what's going on. So first of all, I don't. Secondly, love is hugely complicated. I mean, really, really, really, really complicated, highly multifactorial, so many different things that feed into it, highly individual, like really individual, how I feel when I'm in love, how you feel when I'm in love, probably not the same, you know, because there's so many things that factor into it. And the more I study love, the more in awe I have of it, because it literally does infiltrate every fiber of

• 56:17Speaker 01

  your being and come into every aspect of your daily life, even if you're not consciously thinking about it.

• 56:26Speaker 01

  You know, you are, you probably think about your family, you think about your friends, you do things for your family, you do things for friends, they do things for you, you're cooperating with people all day long. You know, you're thinking ahead how to make somebody happy, you're planning things for the future, whatever it might be. And it it infiltrates every aspect of our media, every aspect of our religions are based on love, you know, our politics, everything includes love. And so for me, it's a hugely awe inspiring phenomenon and we are so lucky to experience it in the fulsome way that we do. And in the spread of different ways that we do, and the fact that we have all this art and this literature and all this, these stories around love. We do that because it's so hard to put into words how amazing it is.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  So difficult to to fully say what, so I can reduce it to chemicals for you and tell you which genes are involved and show you the brain activation and say da da. But that's not it. That's just some objective measures of something which is nebulous, constantly changing, highly individual. So, you know, people come to my talks, I think sometimes, maybe they're a little bit lost because of love, because love in the, in this century is quite difficult, particularly if you're young. And they think I'm going to give them a formula of, okay, if you do this and you do this and you do this, then this is going to happen and it's all going to be fine. No idea. There will never be a formula for love because, oh, while we can objectively measure bits of it, there's this massive bit. Maybe subjective, don't know anything about it.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Um, and we probably won't ever touch it because it's impossible to measure. And that shows to me how phenomenal it is and how lucky we are to have it. So I actually don't get bored of it. The more I experience it, the more I am inspired by. And I genuinely, genuinely do think it's, it's absolutely possibly the cornerstone of being human, or at least one of the very important ones. Because we literally wouldn't survive, our culture wouldn't be the same without it, we wouldn't be around without it. The relationships we build would be devoid, you know, I mean, it's just, to me, it's, it is actually everything. And that's kind of how I conclude the book, you know, I, I basically say, what is love? Well, love is actually everything, everything.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  If you don't have it, you live very much half a life. Definitely.

• 58:41Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about the dark side of love, how it can be used as a control.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. So the problem with love, uh, because we need it so viscerally and because it imbues every fibre in your body. That need, that absolute drive to find it, to keep it,

• 59:00Speaker 01

  means that it can be used against you. And we are, we talked about animal love at the start, the only thing that definitely separates us from the animals is that we are the only creature that uses love to manipulate. So the fact that somebody needs our love, we will use to make them do stuff for us. Now, we all do that. We all probably at some point have said, if you loved me, you'd make me a cup of tea. Or if you loved me, you'd let, if you loved me, you'd let me choose the colour of the new sofa. Or whatever it might be. We have all done it. But there are really serious extremes of that. And because, again, things like beta endorphin is addictive, unfortunately, some people seem to be more susceptible to that, that, that level of addiction, find it much, much harder to break.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it, it can be used to, you know, at the, at the minor, minor end, there's obviously jealousy. And jealousy evolved as an emotion for the same reason as all emotions, it's there to aid our survival. And when kept under control, it is important because it, it draws your attention to threats to your survival critical relationships. And, and then you can act because you felt jealous and you can do something. But obviously in extreme cases, it's very dangerous.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  You know, people use love to coerce, to manipulate, to abuse. And I think we don't talk about that enough. We don't talk about this dark side of it. Most human adaptations, of which love is one, have, are never a hundred percent beneficial. There's always a downside and for love, that downside is the fact that we use it in that way. And I, there've been studies done by other people looking at abusive relationships and the role for love in abusive relationships. I personally have studied it in men and men who are victims of domestic violence or domestic abuse. And, you know, people always say, oh, well, there can't be love there because that's not love. But if you speak to the people who are within these relationships, they very definitely think there's love there.

• 1:00:52Speaker 01

  And quite often, they will stay for love, either because they see glimmers of love in that person and they love that person so much, or they think their love can rescue that person. I can change them. I can be the person who changes them. They will be different because I love them so much. And I don't think we talk about bad enough, because ultimately, love evolved as a form of control. It's evolution's way of controlling us to make sure we reproduce and do this really difficult thing. But it's kind of gone a long way the other way. And yeah, we can use it to control other people. And that's not a nice side of it, I'm afraid.

• 1:01:26Chris Williamson?

  That's a very unique insight. What do male victims of domestic violence or abuse say about love? What's the sort of narrative and the story that they tell you?

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  It's that, it's that story. Sometimes it's that they love, they love the person so much, they think they can change them, they think they can rescue them. So for some people, it's kind of like a, not a knight in shining armor sort of thing, but they do feel that this person is damaged in some way and I can rescue them. Sometimes they will literally talk about love being blind. And they were, a lot of them had come out of the relationships when I spoke to them, they'd managed to end the relationships and they would look back and go, I just can't believe I didn't see it. So there's like one guy, he said, who, he himself was violently abused, but his wife would also, for example, violently abuse her parents. So they'd be having dinner and suddenly she'd pour a pot of hot coffee over the mother's head and drag her out the door by her hair. And he would just sit there.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  And he was like, wow. I mean, did I not think at the time, that's really not right? But so they will talk about love being blind and that they're just so overwhelmed by it that they don't see this thing in front of them. And sometimes it's not love for the partner, it's love for the children. Unfortunately, we live in a court system here in the UK where it's still very biased towards mothers and mothers getting children in custody battles. And so a lot of them will stay because if they leave, they are really worried the kids will end up with the mum. A, they won't be able to see the kids because the mum will use them as weapon. And B, the mum might start abusing the kids. So a lot of them will stay for that reason as well.

• 1:03:09Chris Williamson?

  That's so interesting. God, what a, what a wild. I'd never even thought about the, the likelihood of someone who is a, um, abuser in the home, being abuser outside of the home as well.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:03:26Chris Williamson?

  There's this, I'm for anyone who wants to read The Housemaid, uh, the book, uh, skip forward by about 90 seconds, but there's a really interesting story in this. So, um, this woman is recruited to become a housemaid for a rich family. The wife of the family is a total bitch throughout the entire time and the child is a total bitch throughout the entire time. Uh, she ends up being locked in the upstairs attic by the husband. The housemaid gets locked in the attic by the husband. What it turns out is that the husband was doing this to the wife. The wife then found a attractive, uh, supplanted of her,

• 1:04:09Chris Williamson?

  basically someone who could come in and take her role, uh, and that would liberate her and the daughter because this husband was super, super smart and whatever. And it's this sort of weird generational trauma thing. And then at the end of the book, the housemaid outsmarts the guy, causes him to do what he like, makes him pull his own teeth out, makes him lie with a big stack of books on his testicles for hours and hours and, uh, watches him on CCTV. And then at the funeral, uh, she sees the mother and obviously the son had pulled his teeth out, he'd done all of these things and she sees the mother of the son of the, the, the husband, uh, and the mother basically says, "Good to see that you finally disciplined him. I've been trying to do that since childhood."

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:04:56Chris Williamson?

  Yep. So she'd made him pull his teeth out during school when he was a child.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:05:02Chris Williamson?

  And that totally made me think, I mean, it's such a good twist, even just describing it in 90 seconds, it's such a great twist. Um, so. Just a really lovely explainer of that lineage, you know, talking about how hurt people hurt people, this sort of pan-generational trauma thing that gets passed down, its patterns, its genetic predisposition. But I'd never considered it that, yeah, you'd have, you know, an abusive partner. Why would they, why would that stop? You know, it's going to happen to the dog. It's going to happen to the friends. It's going to be emotionally manipulative to the supermarket worker, to the people that they're in the office with.

• 1:05:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, because some people, that is their personality. I mean, I talk about a personality in the book called The Dark Triad Personality. A dark triad personality are people who are narcissists, psychopaths and Machiavellian. And there is good data now showing that people who possess that particular personality type are much more likely to be abusers. Because the way they retain people, the way they retain relationships is, I mean, love scientists, but it's called, you know, costly mate retention behaviours, but basically through violence, through coercion, through abuse, through manipulation. And, you know, they are much more likely to do that now. But the question arises, why are those people like that? Why do they have that personality?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  And if you look back at their childhoods, quite a lot of them are perpetuating abuse they had as children.

• 1:06:28Chris Williamson?

  So fascinating. Talk to me, what about this tension between female relationships and their romantic relationships? The sort of female, female thing and whether or not romantic love is the most important one in that scenario?

• 1:06:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's really interesting that. One of the first studies I did when I went to Oxford was to look at, compare romantic relationships and best friendships. And one of the things we found when we looked at women was that they are more emotionally intimate with their best female best friends than they are with their romantic partner. And that was clearly quite surprising because you're like, wow, because you think, you think of like the most emotionally intimate relationship being the romantic relationship maybe. And these women were like, absolutely not, you know, I keep my deepest, darkest emotional vulnerabilities for my, for my friends, my female best friends. And that's really interesting. And I think. What we're seeing with female best friendship is actually there's quite a revolution going on at the moment.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  And it has been for maybe the last 10, 20 years in terms of how important that relationship is in women's lives. What, when we're looking at like demographic data, more women are remaining single and more women are not, are choosing or aren't having children. And when you, that's your, your life pattern, then your survival critical relationships become something else. And for most women, they become their friends. And, and again, I, I talk about it a lot in the book and I've done quite a lot of research on it because it's really fascinating. Because it's only really happened in the last 10, 20 years because women can control their contraception. And also women don't have to now marry to be independent, you know, you go back to the

• 1:08:08Chris Williamson?

  Financially liberated on them on their own.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. So they're on their own. They don't need to marry for support, for financial support, for protection. And they certainly don't need to have children if they don't want them. And so we're seeing women building these whole chosen families now of their friendships and their friendships literally being their survival critical little bubble. And that's, those are the people they rely on. And as I said earlier, you know, they, they, those relationships bring just as much benefit in terms of love as, as a romantic relationship or a child parent relationship. From an objective point of view. So it's really interesting that, that we are seeing this slight revolution of women. Choosing their friends as their, as their premier relationship in their life.

• 1:08:50Chris Williamson?

  Why is it the case that women show more affection or more love toward their friends? And it seems like guys don't. Is that, is that vestigial allo parenting stuff?

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  No, it's not. I think it's very, very cultural, to be honest. Um, as I said, you know, if you go to other countries and you look at male, male friendships, they're not like ours. I think we are, we do bring up little boys to be quite restrained in their friendships, you know. Whilst I think we've moved on a bit where, you know, male, men might hug each other now. They certainly still very rarely will you see male friends kiss each other. You won't see male friends walking down the street arm in arm. You know, you won't see overt displays of affection, which you will see between women friends. But you go to other countries and you will see that. So I think a lot of it is cultural actually, and it's not. Really innate necessarily.

• 1:09:46Chris Williamson?

  Female friendships are made in the bathroom trip together. That's.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Well, they are. And women, as I said, and it's that and it's that emotional vulnerability because one of the best ways to get close to someone is to be completely emotionally vulnerable with them. Um. And that's what we, you know, that's what counsellors or therapists will teach people who are struggling is be emotionally vulnerable. Um. And because women do that with each other, it's a really, really tight bond. You know, you literally, I spoke to a lot of women. Um. For one of my studies and I quote some of them in the book about about their friendships and they will literally say they have seen me at my worst times. They have seen me at my best times and they are still here and they will always be here. They don't judge me. You know, and we and and, you know, whereas my family do, for example, um, and I know that I can literally be anything, do anything and they will be there for me.

• 1:10:35Chris Williamson?

  Do you think there's something that men can learn from women when it comes to bonding and sort of friendship love in that case?

• 1:10:44Speaker 01

  I do think, and I think it has improved, but I do think men need to be more able to talk about emotional vulnerabilities and concerns and anxieties because I think that's something that's still quite hard for a lot of men to do. Um. And we all have those. Just because you're male doesn't mean that those don't affect you. They do. And I think if we can come to a point where it's it is normal for men to do that and manage to do it without, you know, it only taking two minutes and let everyone making a joke out of it, which is generally what seems to happen. I think that that's very, very healthy. Because, you know, men go through

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  a lot of difficult life transitions as women do, but I think they are taught to suck it up. You know, just suck it up, move on, particularly when it's something like fatherhood or it's something like, you know, getting a partner, you you are the rock of that relationship. You've got to be the one that's supporting and protecting and all that kind of thing. And you've got to be immune to everything going on around you. Well, of course you're not. Of course, you know, I mean, I followed enough fathers now to know how incredibly emotionally, practically, psychologically difficult it is. That transition is tough. Men take longer to transition to be fathers than women do to be mothers. And I think there's a reason for that.

• 1:12:03Chris Williamson?

  I read a study, probably about a year ago now, saying that on average, men say, I love you first. It's quite common for men to say, I love you first. And I thought, well, first off, I thought back to my relationships and I think it was usually me as well, almost always me, actually, I think, that said that first. And I was like, okay, well, that's, that's interesting. Why might that be the case? And I thought about, you know, the only person that I've had direct experience of, which was me. And I think a part of it is feeling like you should lead in one way. I'm supposed to sort of forge for, this feels like the brave thing to do. You kind of know,

• 1:12:43Chris Williamson?

  both of you know already, but it's kind of on you to say it properly. One ex-girlfriend, it slipped out when she was drunk. And then a couple of weeks later, I was like, okay, well, I guess we, you know, we both need to say this now. But then I dug a little bit deeper into what the authors said, and it seems like this data is quite heavily skewed by couples who haven't yet had sex.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:13:13Chris Williamson?

  Ah, I was like, ah, fuck.

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:13:17Chris Williamson?

  But it was a nice theory for a while, and it still may hold true. I don't know how much this is contributed to by couples that haven't yet had sex. But yeah, as you were saying, using, using love to manipulate, sometimes for a variety of different goals.

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm afraid, yeah, that's not a study I've ever done who said, who said, I love you first. But yeah, I, there's going to be a lot of confounding factors there, I think, probably.

• 1:13:43Chris Williamson?

  I've had this idea in my mind for a little while, and you're the, the person I'm going to try and work it out to for the first time. So.

• 1:13:53Chris Williamson?

  I've fallen in love with evolutionary psychology over the last sort of four years or so. And I think it's as close to a complete vision of how human mating works that we have. It's impressively survived the replication crisis. I think it's it and behavioral genetics, the two most unspeakable of the psychological disciplines have actually managed to survive quite well, which probably says something. And also, you know, the manosphere, by whatever term you want to use that. I'm tangential to it, although I've never, never been a part of it. But there was increasingly, and this might be because I've been doing a lot of therapy

• 1:14:33Chris Williamson?

  and sort of emotional work over the last year or so, being just sort of seeing a few holes, or one particularly large hole, I think, that EP in particular misses and that kind of the manosphere does as well, given that it's downstream from it. And, you know, when we're talking mating from an EP perspective, we're talking mate value, we're talking resource provisioning, we're talking fecundity and fertility and waist to hip ratios, we're talking the environmental security hypothesis and what's the economy doing at the moment and how's that impacting the size of the, all of this stuff, I do understand. And yeah, that's maybe the, that's like the nuts and bolts of what mating looks like from a human perspective.

• 1:15:15Chris Williamson?

  But what I as of yet haven't heard any EP stuff really dig into is the phenomenological experience of what it is like to be a human going through that. What does it feel like to fall in love with someone, to not be able to think about much other than them, to be worried about them not texting you? Oh, well, that's my male parental uncertainty getting in, or that's the, the, the alpha difference in our mate value. And you think, yeah, okay, maybe that is what's going on from a source code level, but. It becomes sort of functionally pretty useless when it actually starts to imbue you with the feeling of being that person, of being the person that feels the feelings.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I just, it's something that I've been thinking about recently and I'd love, you know, I'd love to try and, and maybe, maybe this can't even be explained academically. Maybe this is the, the place of art and film and music and, you know, dance and, and theater and stuff like that. Maybe that's where we need to go. Maybe poetry is the place that we need to go to, to try and explain those machinations of, of the person. But yeah, it's the, it's the first time, the, maybe the sort of new shine of my, my shiny new toy has worn off a little bit with regards to EP.

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:36Chris Williamson?

  Just that I love it. I love it so much, but I'm now starting to see the areas in which I wish that it could, it could grow a little bit more.

• 1:16:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think the thing about EP, and yes, EP is not, is definitely not a perfect explanation for anything. What it is, is it gives us

• 1:16:56Speaker 01

  a set of drivers which we can initially place over a human behavior and go, how much of this human behavior can I explain from this set of principles based upon EP? And a lot of those EP principles have come from observing animals and from comparative animal behavior, and I'm going to place those upon this human behavior. I think the thing about human behavior though, is humans are phenomenally complicated things. And we have so many different facets and our brains are so complex that I would be very surprised if any of us were

• 1:17:39Speaker 01

  completely driven by the explanations that EP gives, to be honest. I think it's a good starting point. I think it's a good basic starting point, but I think it's like the, the basis and then on top of that, you have lots of other possible explanations. You have lots of other things that we can't even explain. That's the point. There's so much we can't explain about how humans feel. Um. Even that, how do you feel? I don't know how you feel. You know, you can't objectify that. And I think as humans, we always want to objectify everything and we want to be able to explain everything in scientific terms. And particularly something like love, you can't. And I think that's something we find it hard to accept. Because we've got these big brains, we should be able to explain everything. And and also, we don't like uncertainty. We don't

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  like uncertainty. We like to know exactly why something is happening. But I think with something as complicated as love, that's not probably ever going to happen. And I think that is why art and literature and a lot of those things help or exist, because that's what those people are trying to do. They are trying to express how they feel. You know? So I can tell you what exactly, you know, what the brain scan looks like. And I can explain to you why, when you're first with someone, you're obsessed and excuse you and everything out. That's because your serotonin's dropped. I can explain to you why you're not very good at spotting people who aren't particularly nice at the start of a relationship. That's because love is in fact blind, because part of your brain called the mentalizing

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  area shuts down. I can explain all of these things to you. But that's not the experience of it. And in a way, that's why I love love, because actually, I can't touch bits of it. And that's good. So I think EP is a good place to start, but it's not like the Bible.

• 1:19:22Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  You know, it can't explain everything, because we are more than that.

• 1:19:28Chris Williamson?

  Talk to me about the introduction of online dating, dating apps, and modern mating culture, and what you think that's done to love and attraction.

• 1:19:43Speaker 01

  Fundamentally, it's done nothing to love attraction. So it hasn't changed any of the neurochemistry. It hasn't changed actually what we look for, or any of those really deep seated behaviours that we've had for a long time. Um. What it's changed is the way we meet people. And what it's kind of done is it's handicapped our brains to a certain extent, unfortunately. So I love the way Helen Fisher calls, says dating apps shouldn't be called dating apps. And they shouldn't, they should be called introduction apps because that's what they are. You're not having a date on the app. They slull you into an idea that you can assess whether you're attracted to somebody by looking at a photo of them. Or maybe having a few texts with them. No, you can't. So they're really good for introducing you to people.

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  But beyond that, they really don't give you very much at all because your brain has evolved to be really, really good at this. And that mechanism we talked about earlier, when you, when you start assessing people. That's a really sensory experience that's based on a lot of sensory information, which you don't get from a dating app. The most you might get from, I think, Hinge, now you can record your voice. So you might get some information from someone's voice, but photos tell you nothing. Also, dating apps, you can just lie. I mean, you know, we're really good in person at spotting liars. But we're not so great when it's online because again, our brains are handicapped. We don't have any of the indicators that we would use to tell. So they haven't altered how we, how we actually choose somebody.

• 1:21:11Speaker 01

  But they've kind of made it a bit trickier in some ways, unless you set yourself some really strict rules. Which is, this is an introduction app. I'm not going to try and assess whether I'm actually attracted to this person on this app. The only way I'm going to really be able to do that is to meet them. I mean, obviously safely, but I, that's the only way I can really, really do this. I'm going to limit myself to, I don't know, a certain number of texts or WhatsApp messages. And then I'm going to say, we're going to have to meet now because I can't possibly know whether or not I'm attracted to you. And I think that's the problem. I think a lot of young people in particular

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  think that they are a really efficient way of meeting. So we're kind of a bit obsessed with efficiency, aren't we? And I think they think it's an efficient way to meet somebody. But it's not because your, your brain just can't do it. And also, you know what, relationships aren't supposed to be efficient. Things that are really valuable to you in terms of survival generally aren't efficient, aren't generally time, time, you know, efficient or cognitive, energy efficient. They tend to take time and that.

• 1:22:12Chris Williamson?

  Well, the effort, the effortfulness is part of the value, right?

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And in the old days, you know, when I was dating many, many years ago, you know, yeah, you put effort in, you kind of tried to make yourself look reasonably acceptable. You know, you went out to a pub or you went out to a club or, or whatever. And you made an effort to talk to people and get to know people. But now the fact that you can do it sitting on your sofa, it's incredibly low cost. You can do it while you're watching telly. The risk of rejection is much less because you're not being rejected face to face and the pain is less.

• 1:22:42Chris Williamson?

  The risk of intimacy is also much less.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And that's the problem. Because the reason you make effort in relationships is because they're very valuable. They are really valuable and you're supposed to. So it's, it's in a bit of a, I wouldn't say it's a mess. But I think we kind of need to recalibrate what we think they do a little bit. Because again, people are quite, particularly younger people, I get a lot of twenty, twenty five year olds in my talks. And they are just fed up, fed up of them, tired. They find them really quite difficult to deal with. Um, and they don't seem to feel like they're getting anywhere with them. So I think any desire is listening, you know, you kind of have to recalibrate or rethink what they're actually meant to be doing.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  And I don't, I don't actually think that the, um, people who invented them are to blame. You know, I think they had good intentions. I think they thought when they were invented, this is going to be a lovely way for people to meet. But they did not take into account human behaviour. I don't think they talked to anybody who studied human behaviour. Um, because humans will take something like this and go, oh, shiny new tool. I'm going to do something which is going to completely warp what you thought this was going to do. And they do, I mean, you know, you know, we get, we get the stats coming in from Tinder where, you know, thirty five percent of men like every single female they see. Because then they might actually get a match, you know? I mean, that's like. And then that causes extreme mate choice because then the women go, Jesus Christ,

• 1:24:10Speaker 01

  I'm only going to like one because if I like more than one, I'm going to get like a million matches and not be able to have any time. So it's this extreme mate choices happening. And yeah, and I don't think the designers thought that would happen, but that's where we are.

• 1:24:23Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's funny. And what about the contribution of my previous education institution of Love Island? How do you think dating shows have contributed to what we think of modern mating and love?

• 1:24:38Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know. The thing is, we all love a dating show because we're all obsessed with other people's lives. And that's human because, as I said, we live in a hierarchy and we spend our whole time being really interested in other people's love lives because in a way they affect the pool of our love life. You know, you're getting with them, so I can't get with them. But actually, oh, it's looking a bit rocky. I might be able to get with them. You know, so, so that's why we love watching that. That's why we're really nosy. Um, I think it depends on the date show. I think some of them are quite transactional. And I think that's not very helpful. A lot of them are obviously heavily based on looks. And looks are not as important in a long term relationship as they are in

• 1:25:21Speaker 01

  a short term relationship. So they kind of skew a little bit towards short term relationships, I suppose. I don't personally, I know that some of my colleagues are like, oh, but actually, I don't mind them that much as well, as long as you know, they are a formatted program, which is very much, I mean, I worked on a dating show, you know that I worked on Married at First Sight. And they are edited and they are interfered with by producers. So what you're watching isn't necessarily completely natural behaviour.

• 1:25:50Chris Williamson?

  It's not the most unencumbered of, of what was going to happen. Yeah, I mean, for, for Love Island, which was, I guess, kind of a unique one because it was every 24 hours, there's basically CCTV, hundreds of cameras placed around a villa. Every single thing that you do is captured. You have people listening to just your mic feed 24 hours a day, even when you're asleep. So, you know, yeah, it's, I mean, it's a level of supervision that Stalin could have only wished for. And I, I understand the, the concern that people have about the sort of molesting of, of those storylines. In my experience, it's kind of like just thinking about a midwif meme.

• 1:26:35Chris Williamson?

  This person was a hairdresser four weeks ago. If they tell her to run this scene back with a little bit more emotion this time, please, Melanie.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:26:44Chris Williamson?

  Doesn't have that in her toolkit. What she can, what she can probably do is just act up to the camera. So everyone's like a bit more of what they were.

• 1:26:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Chris Williamson?

  But I, I, I think that you actually, you're actually probably pretty right on saying,

• 1:27:00Chris Williamson?

  in some ways, it might teach young people, maybe not necessarily a representative example of how relationships work, but it teaches them about makeups and breakups and how people deal with disagreements and, and, and things like that.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:15Chris Williamson?

  It just needs to be couched within, dot, dot, dot, and this is not real life.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly, exactly. And that's fine, you know, you're still watching human behavior. It might not be, you couldn't a hundred percent guarantee it's all natural human behavior, but you're still watching human behavior. And yeah, there, there is a source of entertainment. But, you know, I think it's important that we do talk about our relationships and we do observe other people's relationships. You know, all of these things, as you say, are teaching things. So I, I personally, you know, I don't have a problem with them and there are so many, but I think there are so many because we are fascinated by other people's love lives, absolutely fascinated.

• 1:27:54Chris Williamson?

  Is there, have you ever looked at parasocial love?

• 1:27:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:27:59Chris Williamson?

  Right, tell me about that.

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  So parasocial love is love for a, either a celebrity or for example, a character on a film or a character in a book or something like that. And it's something which we're in the kind of foothills of studying in terms of the neuroscience of it. But obviously there's been quite a lot of work done, you know, it's what we would have called a crush. If you're a teenager, you know, got a crush on a pop star or a crush on a film star. And what I find fascinating about it is several things. First of all, The neuroscience of it is fascinating, the fact that you can build a whole relationship in your head, an attachment relationship, having either barely ever had any interaction with a person or none. I mean, that's pretty amazing that the brain can do that. And actually,

• 1:28:44Speaker 01

  I believe it's probably extrapolated from a religious love, which is the same kind of mechanism. And we used to think, if you weren't a teenager, so in a teenager, a crush is important because it's developmentally important, because it allows you to explore your sexuality, it allows you to explore sensations of love without being vulnerable, basically, because it's kind of all in your head, it's a bit of a fantasy, can help you decide. And we know now, particularly with LGBTQ plus kids, particularly if you're in an environment or a community where there are many people who identify as you do, actually celebrities or characters in books who identify like that are really important attachment figures. They're very developmentally important. However, the answer always was, but if you're an adult, oh my God, you have a psychopathology, there's something really

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  badly wrong with you, you must be really weird, you must be really trying to fill a void in your world by, you know, fancying, I don't know, Barry Manilow or something. And actually, what we're finding is that's not the case. The majority of people who have parasocial relationships have perfectly normal functioning social networks, families, partners, all that kind of thing. But this person fulfills something in them, either as a fantasy figure or as an attachment figure, or somebody who just shares similar interests to them. And obviously with social media, you're now kind of more in touch with a version of the person you fancy than you ever have been before. And it's not weird, actually, you know, parasocial relationships only really became a thing from about the

• 1:30:11Speaker 01

  1950s onwards, when people started regularly having tellys, basically. So you were regularly in contact with these people. And of course, you know, your brain doesn't understand screens. When it sees someone on a telly, it's like they're in the room with you. So these people are usually charismatic, good looking, rich, of course, you're going to fancy them. Your brain's going, well, hey, perfect mate, go for it. So parasocial relationships aren't strange. It's just, it's, we have the brain capacity to add these people to our social networks and they can be really important.

• 1:30:42Chris Williamson?

  How funny. The lineage between this and potential religious.

• 1:30:52Chris Williamson?

  Attachment, uh, it seems really, really interesting.

• 1:30:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I do have to be careful. I am not saying the love of God is like the love of Taylor Swift.

• 1:31:00Chris Williamson?

  Taylor Swift.

• 1:31:00Speaker 01

  Just want to make it more broken now. Yes, okay. Um, yeah, religious love is fascinating because we have taken our ability to obviously love in person, which, you know, a lot of animals can do. And we can build a relationship with someone, which is a fully attachment love relationship with someone who we will never have physical contact with. So that's pretty astonishing that we can do that. And if we look at the neuroscience of religion,

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  if you put, there's been some wonderful work done, not, not by me, by groups, for example, putting religious followers in scanners and asking them to have mystical experiences with their God. Particularly, there's been some good stuff done on like karma, like nuns. Um, and they've had religious mystical experiences and absolutely on that screen is the fingerprint of love. And what's really interesting also is the area of the brain, the prefrontal cortex, which fires up when we are communing with a fellow sentient being is also highly active. So they are in love with a sentient being who is real and who they experience a full reciprocal loving relationship with, an attachment.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  You know, I spoke to a lot of nuns, in fact, for my book and really wanted to talk to them about and see whether their relationships with God had all the hallmarks of a human, you know, earth-based relationship. So, you know, yeah, was the reciprocity? Did they have maintenance behaviours? What did they bring to the relationship? What did God bring to the relationship? Did they feel empathy with God? Did he feel empathy with them? You know, all these sorts of different things. And they do, they have fully functioning relationships and attachment relationships which provide a secure base and which are developmentally important to them. So I just think. It's a phenomenal ability to have that kind of relationship. And for the people who experience it, hugely beneficial.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  In most cases, it's a hugely beneficial relationship to have. You know, we know that. And we know that it's not just. So the health benefits of of having a religious relationship aren't just you get a church and there's a load of other people and it's a social network, which we do expect. We know people who have personal prayer with God rather than what we would call ritualistic prayer with God. So you do it on your own. So rather than saying the Lord's prayer, which is a ritualistic prayer, have personal prayer, which is conversations with God. We know that people who have conversations with God are much healthier, have good mental health, good physical health, have all the longevity benefits. Because they are having a personal relationship with someone. And I it's really powerful literature, actually, and it's really powerful research, I think.

• 1:33:36Chris Williamson?

  That's so cool. So interesting as well to think that that

• 1:33:41Chris Williamson?

  pathway that we have for building relationships with other people has been tapped into by religion. And you know, the ubiquity of religion independently arising in God knows how many different places across the planet always makes people think, well, you know, it must serve some sort of a purpose or else why would it?

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  No, it completely does. Yeah, it completely does. Completely does. Religion definitely serves a purpose.

• 1:34:03Chris Williamson?

  And this talks about, you know, it's this really wonderful blending of what happens when you have a cultural technology with an existing predisposition in terms of the way that our psychology works. And these two things just slot together pretty perfectly.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I find it the most, of all the areas of love that I look at, in one sense, it's one of the most fascinating, I think. Because it's very powerful. Yeah.

• 1:34:28Chris Williamson?

  Dr. Anamation, ladies and gentlemen, and I love you. I love your work. I think that all of the things that you're doing are great. What can people expect from you next? And where should they go if they want to keep up to date with your?

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  Okay, so next I'm going to be shutting myself in the Bodleian Library in Oxford and hopefully, hopefully writing my next book, which will be another book on dads, but updating all that. And then after that, I am hoping to do more work on control. The dark side of love, I'm afraid. But yeah, I've got a website at animation.com and I'm on Instagram and Twitter. So, or X as we're supposed to call it these days. And I post a lot of stuff up there, which you can always see what I'm up to.

• 1:35:06Chris Williamson?

  Hell yeah. I really appreciate you. Thank you.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:35:09Speaker 02

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig on October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. If y'all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:35:26Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:35:33Speaker 03

  I'm not the first daddy.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.