Best Peptides, Stem Cells, Testosterone & Exercise Hacks - Biohacking Roundtable - #1148

In this Biohacking Roundtable, we explore: What the best peptides for health & muscle building are. The latest biohacking tech that is real but sounds like science fiction. Which longevity supplements offer the most bang for your buck & are worth your time. The best diet and foods to eat to maximise longevity. and much more… Guests: Dr Gabrielle Lyon is a functional medicine physician and Founder of the Institute of Muscle-Centric Medicine. Ben Greenfield is a biohacker, coach, author, speaker, and Ironman Triathlete. Brigham Buhler is a healthcare entrepreneur, founder and CEO of Ways2Well, and co-founder of ReviveRx Pharmacy. Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get up to 20% off Timeline’s leading longevity and cellular health supplement at https://timeline.com/modernwisdom Get up to $350 off the Eight Sleep Pod 5 at https://eightsleep.com/modernwisdom Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (0:00) Science-Backed Peptide Regimes (6:47) The Health Hacks Scientists Actually Swear By (21:37) Do Heat Shock Proteins Really Matter? (24:02) Why Resonance Breathing Is So Powerful (27:17) Are MUSE Stem Cells the Next Big Breakthrough? (36:23) Are GLP-1s Causing Too Much Muscle Loss? (45:23) How GLP-1s Could Be Changing Desire (54:12) Why Has Testosterone Become So Demonised? (1:07:07) Should We Be Prioritising Testosterone? (1:12:43) The Fight Against the Peptide Ban (1:24:19) Health Freedom vs Protection: Where’s the Line? (1:29:37) Is Plasmapheresis the Next Longevity Breakthrough? (1:36:16) The Best Cost-Free Longevity Interventions (1:44:44) Is Proteinmaxxing Overhyped? (1:49:32) Is Fibre the Next Big Health Trend? (1:58:24) Inside Ben’s Longevity Diet (2:06:17) How Eating Speed Impacts GLP-1 Release (2:07:31) Does Fasting Actually Work? (2:10:28) Which Longevity Tools Are a Waste of Money? (2:20:54) Should Microplastics Be Listed on Packaging? (2:25:10) What’s the Next Big Biohacking Trend? (2:33:52) What is EMF Exposure Actually Doing to Us? (2:39:30) Do Air Scrubbers Actually Improve Your Health? (2:47:39) Should Everyone Get Genetic Testing? (2:49:49) Where to Find Everyone Extra Stuff: See me live in the UK & Ireland this October: ⁠⁠https://chriswilliamson.live Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  People of the UK and Ireland, if you are coming to see me on tour, I want to hear from you. I want to know what problems you're dealing with, your worst first date, and any questions that you've got for me. And I will be bringing some of you up on stage to talk about it. So if you're coming to see me on tour this October, go to chriswilliamson.live/stories, submit them, and I might see you with a mic in front of your face very soon. chriswilliamson.live/stories. Everyone, tell me what peptides you're on. That's all I care about.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Woo hoo. Let's go. Which day of the week? Uh, which time of the day?

• 0:33Speaker 01

  I, I view peptides as a little bit more of like a condiment that's in your refrigerator that you might use for a specific reason and don't follow an exact protocol every day. For example, when I travel, I use thymus and alpha 1, which I'm on right now, as you can tell, for the immune system. Yeah. I keep around BPC 157 and TB 500 for injuries. I run a couple of times a year, a tesammarolin, ipammarolin with CJC 1295 cycle for growth hormone. And, um, those are the biggies. Oh, Cmax and Clink, intranasal. Cmax is a little

• 1:15Speaker 01

  bit more of like a cognition, brain derived neurotrophic factor booster. And then Clink is more of like a, like an anxiolytic. So kind of an upper downer. It's like my version of Valium caffeine. Yeah.

• 1:29Speaker 02

  What he said. And pretty much that protocol I agree with. And I tell everyone, the answer's not at the bottom of a peptide bottle, like diet, lifestyle, nutrition, living by the principles first. These are like additives that can help optimize your health, especially with our food sources and how stripped they are of the nutrients. The only compounds that I think I take that you didn't discuss is IGF LR3. I don't know if you've ever messed with that. Insulin growth factor LR3. So a lot of people take growth hormone historically, but the reason they were taking growth hormone was in an effort to get all the therapeutic benefits that growth hormone gives you when it converts to IGF. And so if you were to use the peptide IGF, you get all the benefits of growth hormone, but with a much better

• 2:12Speaker 02

  safety profile that will not impact your natural growth hormone levels. And so that's why I'm a huge fan of.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Does it, does it have like a similar, like pure HGH, you get a little bit of, of almost like a glucocorticoid response where there's a surge in cortisol, you're resting, glucose tends to be higher, a lot of people don't sleep as well at night because it, it goes on a downstream pathway. Do you skip out a lot of that?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, you, you do skip out a lot, but bigger than that is you're not impacting your natural growth levels. So, you know, you're still in your 40, I'm in my 40s, so 46. So I want to be cognizant of that. But anytime I come off, like, so I'll go on for four to six weeks. And then I, when I come off, I'll cycle on to CJC and some of the other things you discussed, just to boost my natural growth hormone levels.

• 2:57Speaker 03

  So I have the simplest protocol here. Sounds like, I will microdose GLP-1 once in a while for inflammation. I think there's going to be new emerging research. I was actually at the Protein Working Group Summit 3.0. And that is like the Oscars for nerds and protein scientists. I just invitation only, 100 of the finest scientists that are doing protein research. And there were topics of discussion, like what are the challenges that we face. But more importantly, I sat with Arnie Astrop, who discovered GLP-1's impact on appetite. So he was essentially responsible for what we now have is this

• 3:40Speaker 03

  obesity, now not called obesity sarcopenic epidemic, GLP-1 use, which again, I am totally for GLP-1s, but that is.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  Cool. You said you're, you're microdosing it for inflammation?

• 3:52Speaker 03

  Yes. And there is going to be new emerging research that is going to have an impact on cancer, they believe. That low dose GLP-1, we, we don't totally know. He believes it's through inflammation. And this was the guy who discovered GLP-1's effect on appetite.

• 4:09Chris Williamson?

  How do you know that it's not just a reduction in the turnover of food?

• 4:12Speaker 03

  We don't.

• 4:12Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  We don't.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  Eating less cancer causing food.

• 4:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. It could be, but that remains.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Well, and the, the second leading cause of cancer, well, age is the leading cause. Second to that is obesity. And then, so if you were able to address aging and obesity, then you're naturally going to reduce the risk of cancer. So I think, uh,

• 4:33Chris Williamson?

  I mean, there's even.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  There's definitely going to be a correlation to the weight loss. Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors for cancer.

• 4:39Chris Williamson?

  Inflammation, inflammation independent of obesity as well. Just eating, how many bros do you know that are relatively lean, but they're turning over tons of sugar? They're just training it out of them? Or they're still young, their metabolism's still kicking?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Right. That's one of the possible benefits of intermittent fasting is autophagy and giving, giving that like reactive oxygen species production a break.

• 4:59Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 4:59Speaker 01

  I, I have microdosed with GLPs before on flight days. Like there's something about it, just like quiet food noise. You don't really have access to great food anyways. I don't want to be distracted by food or think about it. I'm sedentary anyways for most of the days. So even if I could eat, it's probably not the best scenario for me to be eating. And so, uh, that, when I say microdose, like, I don't know how much you mean, but I'm talking like 0.25. And to contextualize that, like a normal dose would be eight, 10, 12 milligrams of something like a regular.

• 5:30Speaker 03

  Depending on.

• 5:31Speaker 02

  It's crazy that you.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  So it is a good travel hack.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Because what you're saying is what we've seen anecdotally. Like, cause we're at over 70,000 patients now in, in the patient population as a whole at waist to well. And a lot of the patients are now doing microdose GLP-1s. And they say that they see a big difference in their inflammation.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  And I think that that is what we're going to find more. And I think the bigger point that we have to make is that they're here to stay. Whereas other medications, there's never been anything nearly as revolutionary. And you know, in the nineties, when they had the food guide pyramid, and then all of a sudden obesity hit?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  We are at the precipice of trading obesity for sarcopenia. Right now.

• 6:08Chris Williamson?

  What's sarcopenia?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  We're going, we're going for people who are too big, people who are too frail.

• 6:12Speaker 03

  Decrease in muscle mass and strength. And we've seen it, right? Your parents all of a sudden get frail, your grandparents get frail. And if we're not careful, we're going to miss the early warning signs, which I think that we're seeing with people out in Hollywood, we're just seeing a transformation.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. That's like, that's like the, I read your book and you talked about where it's not necessarily that we're under muscled. We're also under muscled. It's not just that we're obese. We are under muscled.

• 6:39Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  And if we can maintain lean muscle mass and bone mineral density as we age, it is one of the leading indicators on health span and longevity.

• 6:47Chris Williamson?

  What are some biohacks or some interventions that you use or believe in, but you don't have any data to support? What are some of the things that you're like, I fucking love this and I know that it works for me. The doctor in the corner is shaking her head.

• 7:02Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Let's go. Let's go bro science. Biocharger. Have you ever seen this?

• 7:07Speaker 03

  Oh my God, I have one.

• 7:08Chris Williamson?

  Borrowed one from Tony Robbins.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  I have one. Wait, no, I don't. I don't.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  I don't.

• 7:15Speaker 03

  So.

• 7:16Chris Williamson?

  Don't rope me into your bullshit.

• 7:17Speaker 01

  Facebook Marketplace it.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Okay. So I saved a patient's life and she said, pick any piece of equipment that you want. And she keeps talking about this biocharger. She's like, my sex drive is up. It's like the best thing ever. I'm like, okay, well, I already have a sauna. I already have a cold plunge. What about the biocharger? Yeah. But so I got a, I have a biocharger.

• 7:40Chris Williamson?

  How did you find it?

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Great.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  My husband, he's like, I feel this. I mean, who knows? But.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  It does, it does red light.

• 7:46Speaker 03

  But does it work?

• 7:46Speaker 01

  PMF, radio frequencies based on a Tesla coil surrounded by 12 noble gases in tubes.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  And there's zero clinical data, but.

• 7:54Chris Williamson?

  You can hold a cool fucking lightsaber near it.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  So what did you think of it when you used it?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I think a parasite recipe, like a somni recipe.

• 8:02Speaker 03

  Like a raisin brand.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  Okay. The raisin brand recipe.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  What is that?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  Works.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  For what?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  Constipation. If, if you're constipated, been traveling, whatever, you sit in front of the raisin brand recipe, it lasts 12 minutes and you literally have like a turtle head poking out.

• 8:16Speaker 03

  I want to hear what Chris's experience was. Chris, what?

• 8:18Speaker 01

  I got, I went.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  I was like, what is?

• 8:21Chris Williamson?

  I went, I went to Tony Robbins' house. He said, he's got one in every room in his house, apparently. I don't know why. And, uh, we, I got lent one for a month or so. I noticed no difference. For the people that don't know.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  Wait, did you use it?

• 8:34Chris Williamson?

  Consistently, semi consistently.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  He didn't use it. He didn't use it.

• 8:37Chris Williamson?

  Like you put your phone near it and your phone starts fucking glitching out.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  Wait, but did you use it? How often did you use it?

• 8:43Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. If I'm supposed to use.

• 8:45Speaker 03

  Okay. Wait, I have two other, I have two things.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Okay. And then, and then I've got one more.

• 8:50Chris Williamson?

  Oh, you've got millions.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  You might know more about this, this machine. So I, so there's something, and you probably know way more about this than I do, but I got, um, lent a windback machine. Have you ever seen that? It's like some tech heart therapy. Do you know what that is?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  I don't know what both of those words are.

• 9:05Chris Williamson?

  Exciting.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  I don't know. And it's, so you don't know what it is. I don't know what it is either.

• 9:09Chris Williamson?

  But what is it?

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Well, it seems like it has some, um, it's like not quite EMS, but it has some high radio frequency. It is, but it's not exactly. And it's called tech heart therapy.

• 9:21Chris Williamson?

  What do you do, these patches?

• 9:23Speaker 03

  So there's patches, but I've been using it for my hamstring and it seems to-

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Does it have like a controller that's producing electricity?

• 9:29Speaker 03

  It does. It has this, yes. And I was hoping that you would tell me exactly how it works, but it seems to do tissue healing. I haven't seen good US data on it. I think that I'm feeling better, has to work somehow, and it's not a stim device.

• 9:44Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Uh, I do not know if someone could Google it and see exactly what frequency.

• 9:50Speaker 03

  Also, I'll send again.

• 9:52Chris Williamson?

  Sharon can look it up. What's it called? EMS?

• 9:54Speaker 03

  No, it's called a Winback.

• 9:55Chris Williamson?

  Windback?

• 9:56Speaker 03

  Win, yeah.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, pull it up and see what they're, what they're actually saying that it does. I might have seen something like it before.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  And it localizes to where the pain is, which is really weird.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. The Roxeva lamp? Have you seen this one?

• 10:09Speaker 03

  No.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Okay. So it's a sound lounge, it vibrates, like a vibroacoustic bed that you lay on.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  That sounds cool.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  And then it's a lamp and the lamp has headphones. So it's like an AV cable. One side is going into the vibroacoustic bed. The other side is going to the headphones. And then there's like a hundred different sessions ranging from five minutes to 60 minutes that are like blast off to the moon psychedelic, like full on mushroom LSD like trip, depending on what you choose with zero biological payback as far as you actually needing to swallow a substance or put anything under your tongue. You lay there, you put on the headphones, you flip it on, you close your eyes and it whisks you off to another.

• 10:48Speaker 03

  And it works. What is it called? Wait, what is it called?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  So it's like, if we were to talk about the proposed neural benefit, it would be based on what's called light sound entrainment, meaning shifting you into different brainwaves based on the light and the sound. It's called a Roxeva.

• 11:03Chris Williamson?

  It's similar to a shift wave?

• 11:04Speaker 01

  There is a session on there. It is like a shift wave, but imagine if the shift wave didn't just have sound, because the shift wave is super cool for people listening or watching. It vibrates, uh.

• 11:15Chris Williamson?

  It doesn't just vibrate, it fucking shakes the room.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  It's lined with nodes.

• 11:19Chris Williamson?

  I've got one at the house.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  And the cool, the cool part is it will, it will guide you through breathwork sessions and specifically like the breath holds. You can go like 25% longer just based on the distraction of the vibrating chair. So, and you're wearing a fingertip monitor for HRV and your HRV climbs through the roof while you're doing this thing. Imagine that plus flickering light. That's also designed to just like whisk you off into a completely different state. There's a session called rebirth and they actually recorded like whoosh, whooshing sounds in mom's womb and the fetal heartbeat. And you, you put on the headphones, you close your eyes, you lay into this thing and it feels like you're just like primally being whisked back into

• 12:04Speaker 01

  this like fetal state. And you lay there for 45 minutes and sometimes you'll fall asleep, you're in and out of consciousness. And then the last five minutes, you get burst and the music crescendos and all of a sudden like everything starts beating and the lights get brighter and your heart rate speeds up and you get this dump of adrenaline and then you're just like out and then everything goes dark and you sit up from it and you just feel like you could go conquer the world. 2 PM in the afternoon.

• 12:32Chris Williamson?

  That's fucking-

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Wow, I was so into that story.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  It's pretty cool.

• 12:34Chris Williamson?

  That's fucking cool.

• 12:35Speaker 03

  Does it work if you use, I mean?

• 12:37Chris Williamson?

  I've used the, I've used the shift wave. The shift wave's not as comprehensive as that. There was a, an interesting thing around the sounds from mother's womb. I had Stephen Porges on, the polyvagal theory guy.

• 12:48Speaker 03

  Oh, very interesting.

• 12:49Chris Williamson?

  He came up with the safe and sound protocol, SSP. You familiar with that? So this is a mode of nervous system re-entrainment and it's a combination of kind of meditation with, you actually have a facilitator who is halfway between mantra, meditation, psychotherapy and like, oh, sound wave work, I guess, and breathwork. And one of the things that he taught me, which is fucking fascinating, the soft, gentle reassuring sounds that mothers give to their kids is the frequency in which the safe and sound protocol works as well. One of the weird things is that's the-

• 13:32Speaker 01

  You mean the same like sound frequency, like the tone?

• 13:35Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 13:35Speaker 03

  So interesting.

• 13:37Chris Williamson?

  It's the same for dogs and it's the same for horses. And that's the reason that equine therapy and that humans and horses are able to connect as well, and that humans and dogs are able to connect as well.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Oh, that's fascinating.

• 13:46Chris Williamson?

  Because the sound frequency that mothers and kids have in all of those species are within the same band. Isn't that fucking cool?

• 13:54Speaker 01

  What if your mom has a really low voice?

• 13:58Chris Williamson?

  She's probably jacked, so it's fine. Doesn't matter at all. What else have I been using? It's been interesting. Hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I mean, I know that this is not super like experimental and it's probably pretty well-

• 14:09Speaker 01

  Not sexy at all.

• 14:10Chris Williamson?

  It's, that hard shell, what, like 2.2 ATA is so good. I don't know what is happening to make me feel the way that I do after I come out of a hyperbaric therapy, but it is 20 minutes on, five minutes off, 100% oxygen on the mask, normal oxygen outside of that, 90 minute session down at depth, 2.2 is better than any coffee, better than any cold plunge, better than any, anything.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  There's a, there's a little bit of parasympathetic activation too, just from the, the whole sensory depth nature of it. I did one at Brigham's yesterday and like my tongue lagging out of the corner of my mouth.

• 14:43Speaker 03

  But it's just a standard hyperbaric chamber that they've been using in operators forever.

• 14:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Michael Jackson was using one in like the 90s.

• 14:50Speaker 02

  Have you guys used the hydrogen bath stuff?

• 14:53Speaker 03

  I have to use that, yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I use one at Lumati.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  My garage. I don't, and I think there is, I haven't looked it up. I just fucking have one.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  It's just transdermal absorption of hydrogen.

• 15:03Speaker 02

  But I don't, I don't know if there's studies behind it. I just use it and I like it.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  You're just getting hundreds of times more hydrogen than a pill.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  It's so relaxing to me because it's a hot tub. You're sitting in a hot tub that has hydrogen in it and you can probably talk-

• 15:15Speaker 01

  You need a placebo controlled trial where you're actually in the hot tub and nobody tells you whether or not they put hydrogen in it. But the idea is that there is some transdermal absorption of hydrogen in a hydrogen rich environment, either in the air or in the water, that's greater than what you would get from like a pill dropped in water. And hydrogen being a selective antioxidant means that for inflammation, for soreness, et cetera, you do feel pretty good afterwards.

• 15:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's hard because a hot tub, you feel good too.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  For my podcast and literally like my bookshelf on my books to read is in the garage. Uh, that's where my wife, Henry, put the bathtub, uh, in a hydrogen bath with a red light.

• 15:53Speaker 02

  And how long do you stay?

• 15:53Speaker 01

  And I lay out there and read books.

• 15:55Speaker 02

  How long do you stay in?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  About 40 minutes.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  Every day?

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Almost every day now.

• 16:00Chris Williamson?

  The hydrogen bath I was using really intermittently. That was when I was in Lumati.

• 16:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's where I got my hydrogen concentrator was from them in San Diego.

• 16:12Chris Williamson?

  Have you seen Alex Tonava's thing? He's the inhalation shit.

• 16:16Speaker 01

  Brigham has one. Uh, that is, uh, it's, it's the only hydrogen inhalation machine that can go up to that high of a percentage that doesn't use a nasal cannula. So, so you get a pretty high concentration.

• 16:28Chris Williamson?

  That also doesn't risk fucking blowing up.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Explosion. Yeah, without risk of explosion.

• 16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's terrible.

• 16:33Chris Williamson?

  What are you fucking about with hydrogen, dude? But I mean, you, you put me in touch with Alex and his machine is fucking out of this world. I don't even know if they're publicly, if they're like widely available.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  I don't know if they're for sale or not, uh, but, but it's called an H2O.

• 16:45Chris Williamson?

  Been working on it for a decade.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  What pushed me over the edge is, is there's a very, um, very, very trustworthy guy in the hydrogen research sector named Tyler Laberon, who I think he founded the, uh, the hydrogen research foundation. I think that's what it's called. And he put his name behind this because he was so impressed with it compared to all these different machines, a lot of them coming out of Asia that have low concentration or you can't adjust the percentage or they use a nasal cannula instead of a mask. Uh, and so when I asked him about it, he was like, thumbs up. This is the best one in the market.

• 17:17Chris Williamson?

  What do you make of, uh, cause we've got hydrogen tablets?

• 17:21Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:22Chris Williamson?

  Uh, hydrogen flasks, water infusion flasks?

• 17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:26Chris Williamson?

  Inhalation and now baths as well. What do you make of hydrogen, the research around it generally? And then what do you make of those different?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I've used a test kit to test the bottle and the tablet and the bottle produces a higher concentration of hydrogen. It's like eight to 10 ppm, but the bottles poop out after like 300 uses. So you're going to buy a bottle frequently.

• 17:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  The pill's slightly lower. The transdermal absorption, there's not a lot of research on that. The inhalation is the highest concentration that you can infuse into your body as far as what they've actually looked like, looked at for, for hydrogen concentration.

• 18:01Chris Williamson?

  What's the proposed mechanism benefits of breathing hydrogen, of putting more of it in your body?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  It's an antioxidant.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  So basically it would quell inflammation, it would essentially,

• 18:17Speaker 01

  because it's a selective antioxidant, it can accept or donate electrons. So unlike say like a high dose synthetic vitamin C or vitamin E, or a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, it can actually accept or donate an electron. And so it would be something that would not say quell the hormetic response to exercise. Like after you do a hard exercise session, you're actually not supposed to take high dose antioxidants.

• 18:46Chris Williamson?

  Same reason you shouldn't do a cold plunge.

• 18:48Speaker 01

  Well, the cold plunge, you have to drop the muscle temperature by about one degree Celsius, which takes at least 10 minutes at a pretty cold temperature. That like jumping in a quick cold plunge or taking a cold shower after a workout, that's not as big a problem.

• 19:01Chris Williamson?

  That's been overblown?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Like it's been overblown because I don't know a lot of people who even have the time after workout to get in a cold plunge for 10 to 20 minutes, which is where, which is where, yeah, the desire. And that's, and that's where the research that you blunt the anabolic response actually happens. So if you're going to do a long cold plunge, wait for a few hours.

• 19:19Chris Williamson?

  Who the fuck's doing a 10 minute cold plunge?

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Me, Monday, Wednesday, Friday.

• 19:27Chris Williamson?

  I do three minutes and I'm done.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  So, so basically hydrogen and methylene blue are two examples of selective antioxidants that can accept or donate an electron that would be acceptable for post-exercise inflammation without blunting the anabolic response.

• 19:40Chris Williamson?

  Tell me if this sounds familiar. You train regularly, you eat reasonably well, you feel fine, but you're just kind of going off vibes. Most people have absolutely no idea what's going on inside their body. And that is why I partnered with Function. Function gives you access to more than 160 advanced lab tests spanning hormones, heart health, kidney function, and even detects early signals linked to more than 50 types of cancer. To put that in perspective, your typical annual physical might test 20 markers. Function runs over 160. It's huge. Best of all, you test twice a year and everything lives inside of a simple dashboard. So you track trends over time, make sure you're moving in the right direction. And this level of testing would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it is $365 per year. Just $1 a day to actually know what's happening inside of your body.

• 20:24Chris Williamson?

  And right now you can get $25 off, bring it down to 340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernd wisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernd wisdom. What about talking about the temperature of your muscles being a mediating factor? I saw that Brian had swallowed a thermometer, a pill thermometer, and he was looking at the temperature that you need to get to. Yeah. For the sauna in order to get to heat shock protein. And he'd been doing maybe 20 minutes or 25 minutes at 200, but he actually needed to get to 30 minutes at 200 in order to get to that. What was your read on that data?

• 21:05Speaker 01

  He did. He's also very lean, right? So that's going to be a factor in that he's probably going to need higher temperatures, right? To, to.

• 21:14Chris Williamson?

  Like efficient with heat.

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Efficient with heat, less insulation. I think it also depends on your activity level in the sauna. Like I move a lot in the sauna. Like I'm, I'm doing pushups and squats and, you know, hot yoga and perineum tanning and, you know, all the things that one does in a sauna. So I think if you're moving around a lot, you can, you can get pretty hot. But he does make a good point in that if you want the actual heat shock protein benefit of a sauna, which is the, the main mechanism that kicks in at the higher temperatures. So not just like the detox from sweating or whatever, but the actual cellular resilience effect that you need a hotter temperature than most likely a lot of people are actually using.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  With the caveat being it's kind of a paradox that sauna decreases risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. But when your cranium gets hot and you're getting above about 200 degrees and you don't have your sexy Elvin sauna hat, then you actually increase risk of dementia and Alzheimer's. So he makes a pretty good point that you probably need to go hotter than you're actually going or move more in your sauna or both. But you need to invest in a, in a wool cap to do so.

• 22:25Chris Williamson?

  That's the protection. Interesting. How important is?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  And ice balls.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  I was gonna ask.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I bought, I bought my sons, the, I forget the brand, but they're the ice.

• 22:35Chris Williamson?

  Did you get nutsicles?

• 22:36Speaker 01

  I have 18 year old sons and I want grandkids and we do so.

• 22:38Speaker 03

  I mean, that is the thing they say that if you're trying to reproduce, that the hot temperatures can decrease fertility.

• 22:44Chris Williamson?

  Well, the crazy thing is I was, when I went to go and freeze my sperm, I was talking about, oh, okay, what do I need to avoid? One of the things that the guy came back to me and said is there's so many guys that go away in a bachelor party and they just hang in a jacuzzi, you know, like just chilling with their boys for ages. He's like, that will do so much more damage to your sperm count than a ton of saunas because you've got direct contact from the heat of the water, just like absolutely infusing your testosterone. And your testicles with.

• 23:14Speaker 01

  And chlorine and parabens and phthalates and everything else.

• 23:16Chris Williamson?

  Probably not great. How important, how important are the heat shock proteins? Like, do we really need those or can you get a lot of the benefits without getting into that?

• 23:23Speaker 01

  Oh, you, you can get, uh, and as a matter of fact, this was a couple of months ago. They looked at sauna versus weight training and the weight training protocol produced heat shock protein elevation similar to what people were getting from a sauna session. I don't remember the time or the temperature being used, but ways would be one, just exercising in the heat in general. Paradoxically, cold plunging can increase heat shock proteins because it's a thermal regulatory mechanism. So there are other ways that you can stress the body, kind of like fasting and autophagy to get a similar pathway activated. So it doesn't just have to be sauna.

• 24:02Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. I've been loving a resonance breathing lamp. So there's this lamp called OM, OM to Health. And it's got FDA registered heart rate sensor on the top of it. So you can imagine like a big glass lamp and on the top there's a stone and that's got a hundred hertz sensor. You just hold the stone and the lamp is connected to your wifi, has the algorithm and it detects your HRV. You breathe, the stone vibrates. So you're just breathing up and down with the stone. It maximizes your resonance, it gets you into resonance, it's maximizing that arrhythmia between it.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Makes all sounds. Makes like an ocean sound.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Like two weeks ago, I got targeted on Instagram.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  So rules.

• 24:39Chris Williamson?

  Absolutely rules.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Funny story. So, so, uh, Jay Wiles, the, the HRV expert who developed that lamp. I used to have this thing where I didn't want to do a podcast without a sidekick, without a podcast host. Jay was my podcast sidekick for like four years.

• 24:54Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, he was, he was like the witty banter guy and he's super smart. Like, like whenever anybody would ask a question about HRV, like Jay would jump in. And then he developed this lamp and it actually is cool.

• 25:03Chris Williamson?

  It's fucking, it's absolutely awesome. The best thing about it is you can grab it and use it while you're watching TV. So let's say that you're lying in bed or you're on the couch or whatever. If you've got a lamp nearby, you can just be watching the movie and you can crank out 45 minute resonance breath work sessions without even thinking about it.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, because you don't need the light cue, just the vibratory.

• 25:23Chris Williamson?

  Just vibrating. It doesn't interrupt anything. If you've got it next to your bed and you can't sleep on a nighttime, you can roll over and grab it. That's all, it doesn't interrupt whoever you're in bed with.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  So what, what is that? Is it the vibration that changes it or is it the breath?

• 25:35Speaker 01

  The, the idea behind resonance breathing and it's, it is actually kind of fascinating that nearly every human being on the planet with a breath rate of around five and a half seconds in, five and a half seconds out achieves peak HRV. So that's about where you see really good vagal tone is at that breath rate. And this lamp is essentially in a training tool to either via visual cues or via vibratory cues, if you're using the stone, to cause you to breathe at that rate. There's a book called coherence. And in the latter pages of that book, it was one of the first books I ever read on resonance breathing. There's like a link or a QR code to a downloadable MP3 file called the clock and bell.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  And that was when I first discovered the power of resonance breathing because it's literally like tic toc, tic toc, ding, tic toc. And you play it while you're working or while you're checking emails, while you're doing whatever would normally be stressful. It keeps you from email apnea because you know that you're, you're doing resonance breathing, but it trains you how to like subconsciously resonance breathe. Obviously a way, a way, uh, more stripped down solution than what Jay developed. But OM lamp is super cool.

• 26:45Chris Williamson?

  It's trade, it's trade rather than state. And I think that's what everybody's trying to get themselves over to. It's like, I want to do this practice, but I don't need to just end at the end of my, my session. One of the interesting things I talked to Jay about was if you get below 10 minutes, it's just state. If you get between 10 and 20, you start to move it across into trade changes too. I think you only need to do maybe, you know, three or four sessions a week. So an hour a week, something like that. And it's so easy. So that's, that's on my list.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  It doesn't do fetal heartbeat and womb whooshing sounds though.

• 27:14Chris Williamson?

  Which is a shame. Which is a shame.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  They gotta build that.

• 27:17Chris Williamson?

  Any other cool shit like interventions or supplements or whatever you've been playing?

• 27:21Speaker 02

  The other, the other big one that I've seen and I know Ben's experienced it too, is the Muse stem cells. It's, it's they, so a scientist, Mari Dazawa out of Japan, discovered a subset phenotype of stem cell called Muse. And it's fascinating because everything they've been doing. Outside of the United States with tinkering with stem cells and trying to put them under stress and trying to get them to adapt and change has been in an effort to create a cell that would have a certain phenotype that would be optimal for healing, recovery, and treating an array of different chronic diseases, but that would not become tumorigenic. Right? So, one of the challenges of a cell that can differentiate, meaning it can become anything, is that cell could, in theory, hypothetically, become a cancer cell. Or

• 28:06Speaker 02

  what if it came into contact with a cancer cell and took on a cancer phenotype? And then exasperated that. And now we put trillions of these cells in your body.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:15Speaker 02

  And so fascinating.

• 28:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  2014, this is another woman, one of the leading scientists in stem cell research. 2014, she discovered this cell. It is a MUSE stands for multi-lineage stress enduring, which basically means traditional stem cells, you have to cryofreeze negative 80 degrees or more. And the second you thaw them out, they begin to die. And so you've got to get them into the body quickly. These MUSE cells can stay alive for days at room temperature. Less than 2% of stem cells are MUSE, but they're the super soldiers.

• 28:49Speaker 01

  They've got little MUSE.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  So, and all this research is now coming together. Like this scientist, Dominic Deuschler out of Germany, was a professor at Stanford, and he couldn't understand why diabetic patients didn't seem to be responding in certain ways like other patients. Now that he realized in his study, even though they had stem cells, they were missing this other tagged cell that was some sort of subset. And what it was, was a MUSE. And so here's why that's important. A MUSE cell, in layman's terms, can become anything. So like, when you're a kindergartner, you could grow up and be a scientist, a doctor, an attorney.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Ben Greenfield.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  Ben Greenfield, whatever it is, because you haven't set your identity yet. So, in America, most people who say stem cells don't work, they're getting bone marrow aspirate, or they're taking cells from fat tissue. And the problem with that is, that cell's already developed a phenotype.

• 29:38Speaker 01

  And the fraction is very large.

• 29:39Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  So a lot of it gets stuck in the lungs.

• 29:41Speaker 02

  And if they're diabetic or elderly, they don't have MUSE. There are no MUSE. It's literally just traditional MSCs. And so, what is so special about these cells is they will take on any phenotype. They can pierce the blood-brain barrier. Other traditional cells get caught in the lungs. Traditional MSCs mostly get caught up in the lungs. They don't pierce the blood-brain barrier. Traditional MSCs have a 3% engraftment rate. MUSE cells have a 30% engraftment rate. Traditional stem cells take multiple days to engraft. MUSE cells are engrafted within 48 hours.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  And high histocompatibility too. There's almost no immune system response.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  So they're immunomodulatory.

• 30:19Chris Williamson?

  Is this the shit that Matt Kuck had me breathe? Did he have me atomize?

• 30:24Speaker 02

  Yes, you can nebulize.

• 30:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, nebulize.

• 30:26Speaker 01

  He probably had you do that with MUSE-derived exosomes.

• 30:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:30Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  And so, you can literally place it on the fulcrum plate, internasally, and it will pierce the blood-brain barrier. And they have this because they did it on stroke victims in Japan. And their brain is lit up like a Christmas tree with these tagged cells. And what's crazy is through phagocytosis, they'll consume the damaged cell and take on the personality of that cell. So if you have a damaged neuron, they become a baby neuron that's young and healthy and vibrant. This is proven quantifiably in babies born with encephalitis. They did a study in Japan. If they don't treat those children, almost all of them will be brain damaged in the subset population that was treated in a randomized control trial, which people love. Those children, 90% of them had totally normal brain function

• 31:16Speaker 02

  out to two years from one intravenous treatment. From one intravenous treatment. And we actually had a patient who was on a heart transplant list. We were talking about this with Ben yesterday. Crazy. Patient on a heart transplant list. We treat them intravenous because they couldn't get the heart. By the time they got the heart and they reran this patient's all their data, the doctor took them off the transplant list. And there is crazy data on heart.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  You guys are using Dzawawa MUSE, right?

• 31:46Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 31:46Speaker 01

  Because the actual fraction percentage of MUSE cells widely varies. So.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  And that's who Matt's using. Mari Dzawawa is the woman in Japan who discovered these cells.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:58Speaker 02

  And so, this is the most game changer thing that I have seen. And I've like, I don't own into the company. It's not mine. I wish I did. But it's like, the most game changer thing. And we've been using it. And because, again, Texas has the right to try. And so, this is what Brett has seen the most impact with, with his Parkinson's. And I'm not saying it's going to, if with Parkinson's, it's like, can we slow? Can we slow things? Can we give your body the best chance? And there are so many different benefits to this, whether it's tendons or joints or orthopedic related injuries. The data's really compelling when you go back and look at all of the data that this woman has accrued over the last decade. And now it's a culmination of even the scientist in Germany, Dominic Deuschler,

• 32:41Speaker 02

  who is trying to understand, what are these little subset phenotypes? And now it's all come together where he's like, holy shit, I've wasted 20 years of research.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  They're actually harvested from a rare breed of cattle in the Middle East. So, super cool.

• 32:53Chris Williamson?

  You're kidding.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Difficult to get.

• 32:54Chris Williamson?

  You're kidding.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  He is kidding.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  It's a callback.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  This is healthy birth, healthy mother, pre-planned C-section. They take the discarded afterbirth. And from that, they can extrapolate out these, these super cells, these super soldier cells, basically.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  That's so fucking cool.

• 33:09Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Afterbirth super soldiers.

• 33:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's what I need.

• 33:12Speaker 02

  So those are things that I think will be game changer as they become more readily accepted. Florida's passed a law that allows accessibility. Tennessee just passed a law that I lobbied for. And then also, I lobbied in Arizona. We got it through the House and the Senate, but the governor of Arizona shot it down. I think Texas is going to pass more accessible laws around this. And then Utah.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  In Utah?

• 33:33Speaker 02

  So you can get it in certain states. And then certain states are regulated. And then, obviously, it's not an FDA-approved modality for anything. So, any use of these cells would be off-label. There is no label.

• 33:46Chris Williamson?

  You know what you were talking about, putting stuff here? I was thinking about ClearSpray, X-L-E-A-R. That shit, just available over the counter for marcons?

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:55Chris Williamson?

  Fucking crazy.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:58Chris Williamson?

  I can't believe that that thing is just like, oh yeah, just buy it. And for the people that don't know what I'm talking, can you explain what it is? It's a nasal spray.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  You know about the Xylitol in few years?

• 34:05Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Nasal spray?

• 34:06Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 34:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. I've only ever really used it after swimming in fresh water. Like, I discovered it way back in the triathlon days where you'd get out of a river or lake or any fresh body and just typically like about 3:00 or 4:00 AM that night after you'd lay down and stuff connects in the nasal passages and you get the histamineergic response, you start sneezing and you start sniffling, and you spray this stuff. And you get vasodilation and it seems to just like knock down the histamine reaction. But it's just an OTC.

• 34:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah. Over the counter ClearSpray. But if you do a course, typically for about two or three months, that's enough to knock out marcons. That is a.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Which normally, you'd get a pretty expensive and difficult to get vasoactive intestinal polypeptide, like nasal spray for.

• 34:53Chris Williamson?

  The VIP peptide. Yeah. But you can do that and then maybe some silver spray. And you can get rid of something that's literally living in your fucking nasal cavity. Like, you've got shit that's living inside of your nose. These like, they're like microorganisms?

• 35:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:06Chris Williamson?

  And yeah, this ClearSpray, which is just X-L-E-A-R. And stuff like that.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Somebody knows how to pronounce it.

• 35:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, whatever. I mean, apparently.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  ClearSpray.

• 35:17Chris Williamson?

  Somewhere along the way, low energy just gets accepted as a part of getting older. Turns out, there's a reason for that. As we age, our mitochondria, the parts of our cells that power us, become weaker and make less energy, which is why I'm such a huge fan of Timeline. They've developed this that helps to clear out your damaged mitochondria so your cells can actually renew themselves. Timeline is backed by over a decade of research and has more than 50 patents and is the number one recommended mitochondrial supplement on the planet. This isn't just theory. In clinical trials, people saw mitochondrial renewal increased by more than 40% in just 16 weeks, along with improvements in their overall energy. I've been using it for over two years, since my doctor recommended it to me way before I partnered with Timeline. And eat your heart out, Martin Shkreli, because

• 36:01Chris Williamson?

  they've just dropped the price. And it now starts at $99. Best of all, there is a 30-day money-back guarantee, plus free shipping in the US, plus they ship internationally. And right now, you can get that $99 price with an additional 20% off by going to the link in the description below. Heading to timeline.com/ModernWisdom, using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's timeline.com/ModernWisdom, and Modern Wisdom at checkout. So, why are GLPs a concern for sarcopenia? And are you more worried about sarcopenia than osteoporosis?

• 36:31Speaker 03

  I'm worried about both. And that is a great question. We've never had the ability to lose this much weight this fast outside of bariatric surgery. We are at the intersection of something that we've never seen before, which is very unusual in medicine, to be at a place that we've never been.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 03

  We now have the capacity to reduce weight magnitudes than of weight that we've never had before, which means if in fact, these drugs are utilized, which I think the number is, they're expecting somewhere along between 40 to 60 million people on these medications.

• 37:10Chris Williamson?

  It's like 20% of Americans.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  Plus, all the people who are just like using gray market stuff and not even telling anybody, like unreported.

• 37:17Speaker 03

  Things are going to evolve there. But what is going to happen is if obesity has been our focus, which it has been for the last 50 years, we haven't gotten very far. All of a sudden, GLP-1s are now available. Obesity will become less of a problem. But the fact that people are sedentary, sarcopenia, the loss of muscle mass and strength is going to become a primary problem, which then we know how bone is formed. And by the way, osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes. Osteoporosis is a pediatric disease with geriatric outcomes.

• 37:51Chris Williamson?

  You explain for the idiot in the room.

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Wait.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Meaning, what you do when you are younger to protect bone and muscle? Plays a role in the outcome.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  So yeah, so she was saying it's like predictive of your osteoporotic status late in life.

• 38:08Speaker 03

  So women, athletes, athletes that lose their menstrual cycle are very underweight. People that have struggled with anorexia end up having very low bone mineral density. And then are at risk for osteoporosis.

• 38:21Chris Williamson?

  It's kind of strange to hear, you know, three people in a room who are quite forward thinking, quite experimental, open to new evidence, being skeptical about GLPs. I understand obesity was a problem for a long time. We've got this intervention which appears to fix the obesity thing. And now there's all of these potential side effects that we don't understand. In fact, they're not even side effects, they're more like second order consequences. That's probably a better way to look at them, right? Rather than side effects. What else? How do you guys feel about the potential for millions, tens of millions of people to be taking GLPs over the next decade or so?

• 38:53Speaker 02

  I think, I think one of the big challenges, and this is what you just touched on, is in traditional medicine, it's an insurance model. And this is my forte. And the challenge with that traditional model is you are based off an indication and that indication is based off a specific dosage. And so these trials were based off chronically sick, morbidly obese people, right? This was originally going to be a diabetes medication. And so all of the initial data.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Which is where the lion's share of human clinical data comes from, is disease population.

• 39:22Speaker 02

  And so then the problem is you take that and you roll it out to the general population and everybody.

• 39:27Chris Williamson?

  With a 33 BMI.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  And yeah, and now every housewife in Malibu was using it to lose 10 pounds for like vacation.

• 39:34Speaker 03

  Guess what else it does? And this is not really talked about. It has different sexual side effects if you are a man or a woman.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  Is that like the anhedonia thing where it reduces pleasure? But, but it's more pronounced in one sex?

• 39:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:47Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 39:47Speaker 03

  So in women.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 39:50Speaker 03

  And the data is still emerging because we haven't been using it. Are you ready?

• 39:55Chris Williamson?

  God damn it.

• 39:56Speaker 03

  So for men.

• 39:57Chris Williamson?

  You're so lean, you're so lean, but no one, I can't have sex with you.

• 40:00Speaker 03

  So for men, it can increase testosterone, it can decrease body fat, decrease estrogen, and it can increase sex drive. But what we're starting to see for women is that it can, again, decrease body fat, but it also seems to decrease sex drive.

• 40:18Speaker 01

  So just give them some PT141 nasal spray and we're back off to the races, right?

• 40:22Speaker 03

  Or we study women more. Yeah, or we study women more and perhaps we get, to your point, specialized dosing.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  Because the problem is in that model, I literally, right before we walked in here, got a text from somebody who said, my wife's trisepotide is no longer covered by insurance. And they're trying to move her to a dosage that would be covered. Okay, that's, you're going to move her up to a higher dosage to get insurance to cover it.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Higher dose that's covered.

• 40:47Speaker 02

  Even though she was getting the efficacy out of the lower dose.

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 40:50Speaker 02

  And that's because insurance companies, I broke this down on your podcast too before. It's a big challenge because 30% of the revenue of an insurance company comes from monetizing drugs. So they are changing dosages based off rebates and what rebate pays them the most. And so you may be on an efficacious dosage that's working great for you, but they may go, yeah, we're not covering that one anymore. You've got to bump up.

• 41:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, which is super interesting because it's because of efficacious dose. I mean, we were just talking about point two five, which is a microdose. That suppresses food noise that for a lot of people is enough, nowhere near enough to get covered by insurance. But then these larger doses is where you see the issue back to sarcopenia where you're told you're supposed to go to the gym and lift weights. And the only way for you to do that without feeling flat is to eat a good meal. But you sit in front of your favorite smoothie or pre-workout or whatever, and you get nauseous trying it. So then you're flat in the gym. And so this is like the whole gray man hypothesis where the road that we're going down is getting really smart, getting, getting big like AI, potentially like, you know, hardware infused

• 41:57Speaker 01

  brains while our body wastes away into little stick figures. And the gray men are us from the future on GLP-1s and AI.

• 42:02Speaker 03

  Thank goodness we have testosterone.

• 42:04Chris Williamson?

  Is the, is the, um, the dosage, is it a pre-click pen? Is that why people can't? Because when I think, oh, this is the dosage, I just think about a vial and an insulin syringe. And you go, well, I'll just draw more or less.

• 42:16Speaker 02

  So the companies are launching those other dosages to give more mobility to patients and options. So the commercially available companies, the manufacturers, our compounders have been doing that for the last five years. But that still goes back to, it's going to be based off what was in the clinical trials and what dosage were showed to be efficacious in those trials, which is again on obese patient population. And if you want insurance to cover it, insurance is going to.

• 42:41Chris Williamson?

  You have to do it following the literature. Oh, that's so interesting.

• 42:45Speaker 03

  We're in a space where we don't really understand and know microdosing. We do know that GLP-1s affect muscle positively despite what you're seeing in the literature, which is it reduces muscle mass. The majority of the fat, the majority of the mass loss is fat. But why I think, I actually think the GLP-1s are really good is it, it has the potential to improve muscle quality. Imagine.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  By reducing intramuscular triglycerides?

• 43:13Speaker 03

  Imagine you have a Wagyu steak. You go on a GLP-1, you, you know, inject it, your Wagyu steak becomes like a filet. So the texture and the composition can improve with GLP-1. So we need it. I believe that we need it because we have not been effective before. And again, I don't think body fat is the major problem. I think it's intramuscular fat.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  That is true, that a lot of the studies on, I think it was primarily retinotrite that showed muscle loss were done via DEXA evaluations, which couldn't differentiate between lean mass loss coming from muscle or lean mass loss coming from something like intrahepatic tissue, intramuscular triglycerides, or other things that would actually be a positive benefit when it comes to loss. But if you're not eating enough food, the muscle loss thing is still a pretty, pretty big risk.

• 44:04Chris Williamson?

  To try and recap while we're out here, because that was, that's fucking mind blowing. The studies that have been done are mostly on morbidly obese people because they're morbidly obese, they're given quite high dosages. When it comes to the prescribed, prescriber approved dosages that people can take because they need to follow the science, that means that even people who are looking to lose a little bit of weight and might be able to get efficacious effects from microdosing, they need to be given the big boy dosages because they're the only ones that currently have been studied in the literature. Is that right?

• 44:37Speaker 02

  It's an attempt to try and land the ship and thread the needle and get insurance coverage. And then the initial insulin.

• 44:43Chris Williamson?

  Part of where the research has come from already.

• 44:45Speaker 02

  The initial prescriptions for the first few years were preloaded syringes.

• 44:48Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 44:48Speaker 02

  Right? And so you didn't have the autonomy to shift. And so when we were seeing muscle wasting, it's like, yeah, because a lot of these people are taking way higher dosages than they should have been taking. And their doctors just trying to give them a solution.

• 44:59Chris Williamson?

  And then nose driving their weight when they don't need to, they could get away with point two five or point five.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  What Gabriel was saying is like, like the muscle loss is not necessarily a direct mechanist of cause of the GLP itself. And some of the actual loss from that might be favorable. It's the loss that occurs from simply not being able to get into the gym and/or eat adequate protein.

• 45:18Chris Williamson?

  Because you've got such low energy because you're not eating.

• 45:20Speaker 03

  And low food volume.

• 45:22Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. What's the mechanism for the sex drive in women?

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Dopamine, dopamine brain reward pathways. They, because it's, the pathways are very similar and they're looking at GLP-1 for alcohol addiction.

• 45:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:35Speaker 03

  And drug addiction.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Right. Anything that's hedonic.

• 45:38Speaker 03

  Anything that's hedonic. It's not solely just related to body fat and appetite. It has brain effects.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  It's not only found in the gut and slowing like, making you feel full and slowing gastric emptying. It's also you have GLP-1 in the brain and so it impacts your dopamine response.

• 45:56Chris Williamson?

  Desire generally. I brought this up.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Zombie mode.

• 45:59Chris Williamson?

  I brought this up with Rogan. It was like, what happens when our entire economy is driven on consumerism and you pharmacologically suppress desire? Right? Like, most people are buying shit, not things that they need, just things that they want. And it's sort of repeat habituation. I'm just going to satisfy, satiate myself. And yeah, maybe it's sex, maybe it's video games, maybe it's porn, maybe it's social media, maybe it's weed.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  So you're, you're going down the GLP to GDP.

• 46:24Speaker 03

  Wait, but here's what we're.

• 46:26Chris Williamson?

  Very nice.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Well, I totally missed that, but I'm like the mom in the room. But what's happening is that, so I see patients in my clinic, right? Strong medical, people are getting a little depressed. They don't get the same enjoyment from sex, from eating or from spending.

• 46:42Chris Williamson?

  People on GLPs get depressed.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  And now I want to be really clear, I'm not anti GLP-1s. I mean, we prescribe them. But it's the idea that kind of what Brigham was saying is that we understand the utilization in trials with sick people with type two diabetes. We don't really know all of the other secondary outcomes that this can cause. And again, part of them are positive, but decreased sex drive, fun, mood, all of those things, those are a problem.

• 47:13Chris Williamson?

  I remember looking.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  Yes, it's a great, great aid for stoicism.

• 47:16Chris Williamson?

  I looked at some research around bariatric surgery outcomes and there's an increase in suicides risk after bariatric surgery, but it's not just because it's highly traumatic and sometimes there's infections and sometimes like idiot surgeons like close you up with gauze still inside of you and, and things can go wrong. It's that typically people who are sufficiently overweight that they use bariatric surgery are eating to deal with something that's happening in their life. They've now had that pathway. They've had that pathway of reward and sedation taken away from them, but the problem still exists.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:49Chris Williamson?

  So now what you're talking about here is, hey, you're using GLPs to help yourself lose weight. The weight loss has been curtailed, but the reason that you overate is still exists. And the same thing goes for porn and video games.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  If you were to go to Dr. Lion's practice, I guarantee you, you're doing a full workup, you're assessing the blood work and you're looking at the patient holistically.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  Of course.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  If you go into a primary care practice in an insurance model, they have six minutes with a patient on average. They want to put a win on the board for that patient. That patient's asking for a GLP-1. That patient probably is prediabetic or diabetic. That patient probably does have weight to lose. But what is the root cause of this illness? And these are the symptoms, not the root cause. And then they prescribe the GLP-1 without ever saying, do they have a hormonal inadequacy? Do they have a family history of mental health issues, depression, anxiety? You're doing all that. You have the ability in a cash model.

• 48:40Speaker 03

  And you bring up another really good point that say someone needs to lose weight. Again, we have to recognize we have been very unsuccessful. Now we have a tool that makes us successful. However, let me pose it to you this way. If you, Brigham, had low thyroid and you were hypothyroid, well, you might try to get to the root cause, but let's just say you have low thyroid and I give you thyroid replacement to normalize your levels, you wouldn't think twice, right? I'm going somewhere with this.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:10Speaker 03

  If you had trouble seeing, let's say your eyes got older, if I gave you glasses, that wouldn't be an issue.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Well, it would affect my sex appeal a little bit.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  No, no, it's called.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  I would ask for contacts.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  Fine, fine, but wait, I'm going somewhere with this. But if someone comes into your point with, say, low testosterone as a woman or a man, they are now juicing, they are now on steroids. So this is a problem, not that your testosterone is low. I'm going to give you testosterone to bring you up to a normal level. We're not talking about optimization. We're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about someone is using a GLP-1, now has low testosterone, man or woman. And the thing, the balance, let's say they have low sex hormones because of the industry stigma in general.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:03Speaker 03

  Everyone at this table is very interested in health. But for the average person, if you go, hey, I'm on testosterone, they're like, oh, my gosh, you're juicing, you're on steroids.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:14Speaker 02

  Because what you're saying is spot on because there is a stigma in primary care too with testosterone. So real world example, and he covered this on Joe is Jelly Roll. We've helped him lose 250 pounds. Everyone immediately assumes we put him on a GLP-1. No, we ran his blood work. He had low testosterone. He was chronically inflamed. He had all sorts of other biometric issues unrelated to discipline. And all we did was fix those root causes. He never took a GLP-1 and to this day, everyone's like, and I sell GLP-1s. I would tell you if he took it. It'd be great. GLPs if you needed it. The guy did it with blood, sweat and tears, diet, lifestyle nutrition. Blood, sweat and testosterone. And optimized hormones, yes. But in general medicine, they view it as testosterone is the boogeyman.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a misunderstanding between hypogonadism and super physiological dosing of testosterone and not understanding the sweet spot in between. And, you know, I still, you know, like I was watching Pete Heskey's recent video about putting warfighters on testosterone.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  He wasn't putting warfighters on testosterone, screening.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Or, yeah, screening for that. I, I still like to see that conversation couched in the discussion of like lift weights with your legs, where there's a high concentration of androgen receptors and cover the bases like creatine and zinc and boron and omegas and magnesium and some of the upstream precursors. You know, look into sleep, look into recovery and then make the decision. So I know you guys aren't saying just like throw testosterone really nilly. You see, you did blood work with Jelly Roll. I think the problem is like it is, it is massive, the number of people who are hypogonadal, the number of men in particular are hypogonadal. I don't, I don't think that testosterone replacement therapy is the first solution, but sometimes it is the most effective solution, especially in a scenario where you're unable,

• 51:58Speaker 01

  like in a warfighter to, to live the optimal lifestyle.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  This is very important, very important conversation. What you are saying is absolutely correct. We are seeing a decrease in testosterone year after year. Obesity goes up, behaviors go down, people are eating, not sleeping, all sorts of things. There is a medical risk when someone has low testosterone for heart disease, for osteoporosis, cognition, depression. So if I had one dream in this room of strong men and powerful men, we would clear up the idea of a testosterone revolution and we would clear up this idea that testosterone

• 52:42Speaker 03

  is steroids and somehow I can give medication to make someone have less fat. But if I give medication to someone to have them build muscle, it's, it's a problem.

• 52:55Chris Williamson?

  If you and your partner sleep best at different temperatures, it is time that you join us in the modern world and get an eight sleep.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  I've always wanted to try eight sleep. Which side of the bed do you prefer? I usually take left, but I am flexible.

• 53:05Chris Williamson?

  You're not sleeping in my bed, mate.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Oh, when you said partner, I just assumed.

• 53:11Chris Williamson?

  I meant a romantic partner, you know?

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 53:15Chris Williamson?

  Eight Sleeps Pod 5 is a smart mattress cover that actively cools or heats each side of the bed by up to 20 degrees. So if you run hot and your partner runs cold, you're both happy.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  So hypothetically, if your bro was sleeping over, what side of the bed would you prefer?

• 53:27Chris Williamson?

  I'm not 12. There are no sleepovers, okay? Best of all, it's got upgraded sensors that run health checks while you're asleep, tracking things like abnormal heartbeats or sudden HRV changes.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  What if I just slept at the end of your bed like a dog?

• 53:41Chris Williamson?

  Did your wife kick you out again?

• 53:42Speaker 01

  She did.

• 53:44Chris Williamson?

  Fine, okay.

• 53:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 53:47Chris Williamson?

  Pod 5, it cools, it heats, it elevates, and it's clinically proven to give you up to one hour more of quality sleep every night. And if you're still on the fence, they have a 30 day sleep trial plus they ship internationally. Right now, you can get up to $350 off the Pod 5 by going to the link in the description below or heading to eightsleep.com/modernd wisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's E I G H T sleep.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. Why do you think testosterone's become so demonized?

• 54:15Speaker 03

  You know.

• 54:16Speaker 01

  It makes your blood super thick, it gives you a heart attack.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  So in the 30s, people used testosterone. It was discovered in the 30s as a medical intervention. And there was one study that came out by Huggins and it showed that testosterone caused prostate cancer. So in the 30s, people were using it as a medical intervention. It wasn't, there wasn't a stigma associated with it. At the same time, people were interested, we're seeing an increase in sport performance, right? Because we do know that testosterone increases muscle mass combined testosterone training, you get better outcomes.

• 54:49Speaker 01

  And motivation for forward motion.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  All of these things, for decades, people would castrate men because they were worried that it was going to make or start prostate cancer and treat prostate cancer. The study was wrong.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were only three patients in the studies.

• 55:06Speaker 03

  I can't believe you know this. So there were three patients in this study. So they castrated men, they didn't put anyone.

• 55:11Chris Williamson?

  You mean, we didn't give men testosterone?

• 55:13Speaker 03

  No, they suppressed androgens.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  They actually tied rubber bands around their balls.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, there were three patients.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  They don't really do that.

• 55:19Chris Williamson?

  Because they were, because this Huggins study.

• 55:21Speaker 03

  Huggins.

• 55:22Chris Williamson?

  Said, if you've got too much testosterone, you might get prostate cancer, therefore we'll cut your balls off.

• 55:26Speaker 03

  Or if you have prostate cancer.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, we should chemically.

• 55:30Chris Williamson?

  We'll cut your balls off. It was kind of hard to survive with.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  It was wrong.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  And it was wrong.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  But it was wrong.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  It was all dogma that then got adopted by the medical establishment.

• 55:37Speaker 03

  It was wrong. Can you imagine like whoops?

• 55:40Speaker 02

  And this was debunked by Dr. Morgan Tyler, a prominent urologist in the 90s.

• 55:46Chris Williamson?

  How did it take 60 years?

• 55:47Speaker 03

  So this is the problem. It took 60 years and now we're seeing the opposite.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  Testosterone doesn't cause these things. Testosterone, there is a risk for having low testosterone. Testosterone doesn't cause prostate cancer. Testosterone doesn't make cardiovascular disease worse. There is all of these myths.

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:07Speaker 03

  Which is really important, but we got it wrong.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Some of them are true though, hair loss.

• 56:11Speaker 02

  If you think about what Dr. Morgan Tyler uncovered is it comes down to saturation level. So think of receptor sites. You can only water a plant so much. So if a plant gets no water, it dies. If a plant gets too much water, it dies. Receptor sites are the same way. You can only water that plant so much. So as men had no testosterone, chemically castrated, their risk of prostate cancer was statistically less because you have no testosterone, but you have a higher risk of every other form of cancer. You have a higher risk of metabolic disease, diabetes.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  Most of the risks.

• 56:43Speaker 02

  Losing bone mass.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Of testosterone are not what we thought they were. And they're a little like, you know, excess aromatization and conversion to estrogen if it's improperly managed. So you can get emotional issues or gynecomastia or increased conversion of DHT, which can cause male pattern baldness. But these are not like life or death issues.

• 57:05Speaker 02

  And most of those issues occur when you push past physiological.

• 57:09Speaker 03

  And there's a difference between enhancement and replacement of something the body already makes. And for the military operators, so I had Tim Parlatory, who is the attorney who submitted the memo on the podcast that we haven't released it yet. And the idea is that if you have low testosterone, you are at a disadvantage. If we send guys to war, we're not talking about enhancement. We are talking about guys that are symptomatic with hypogonadism, with low levels of testosterone. If we don't even screen, right now, they're not even screening. If we don't screen, we are sending to war guys with a massive disadvantage.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Right, suboptimal.

• 57:51Speaker 03

  Suboptimal.

• 57:52Chris Williamson?

  Dude, I want every single soldier to have 2,000 nanograms per deciliter of testosterone. Yes, I fucking do. Yes, I fucking do.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  No, we don't, remember, we don't want two emotional.

• 58:00Chris Williamson?

  Monsters who can't control their raid. I want, that's what I want.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Bald, rage infused monsters.

• 58:07Chris Williamson?

  Fucking stick skin off.

• 58:09Speaker 01

  No hair.

• 58:09Speaker 03

  Do not want any of that. But we don't want them sending, listen, I, we.

• 58:14Chris Williamson?

  Fucking each other.

• 58:14Speaker 01

  Tiny balls.

• 58:15Chris Williamson?

  Just fucking everyone.

• 58:16Speaker 03

  Because we're going so sideways, listen, as.

• 58:20Speaker 03

  As a military family, as a Navy family.

• 58:24Chris Williamson?

  With high testosterone.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  With high, yes, my husband, yes, has high testosterone. We would never want those warfighters going in. And you know, I want to say something else is that people are saying, well, what about the women? Well, considering only about 10 people have read the memo, women will also be screened. They're also complicated, like it is more complicated. But if we can get screening done initially to protect our soldiers, then we have a way to do something about it. We can fix and identify and acknowledge that there's a problem. But the fact that it is so controversial, the fact that it has gotten people so upset is outrageous.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  But you do see a political camp, these, this is an agenda. I'm sorry to get conspiratorial, but I've watched it and I've been behind the scenes and I've been all the way to DC. And I've sat at the FDA, I've testified at the FDA. I have watched this play out. The same thing that happened with men and testosterone happened with women and women's hormones with the Women's Health Initiative. And I was a med, I was a drug rep when they released that study. And the first thing the company did was hand me osteoporosis drugs. And all of a sudden, all of us were carrying osteoporosis drugs. And our job was to go into doctors and scare the hell out of them about you should never put a woman on estrogen again. You need to put them on an osteoporosis drug to preserve their bone mineral density. But guess what?

• 59:39Speaker 02

  That osteoporosis drug exasperated hot flashes, which is another issue. Now they need a hot flash drug. So you're selling them four drugs to fix what one natural hormone would have fixed that was there since the dawn of time. But the whole study was flawed to begin with, and that all got debunked. But it took 20 something years to bring estrogen back to women.

• 1:00:00Chris Williamson?

  I don't know how much the cultural conversation and the pushback around testosterone is to do with people understanding a study of three people from 1930. I think it's much more cultural than that. I think it's much more of a, what does testosterone represent generally?

• 1:00:17Speaker 01

  I think that and also the same type of treatment that GLP-1 is given in terms of perception of taking a shortcut. Right? Testosterone is often perceived the same way, where you're not going to go lift weights and you're not going to pay attention to lifestyle factors. And you're just going to throw a Band-Aid on it.

• 1:00:31Speaker 03

  But no one cares if someone's taking GLP-1.

• 1:00:33Chris Williamson?

  Exactly. No one's, no one's accusing somebody that lost a ton of weight on GLPs of being non-natty.

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:39Chris Williamson?

  Right? But if you ever do a six week course of fucking Enanthate, that means for the rest of your time, your natty, your natty status has gone. So what is it? Why, why that? What's the difference? And I think this is a good split test, right? You have two drugs, delivery mechanisms, not too dissimilar. One's IM, one's, you know, sub Q, uh, both of them.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  Both can be sub Q, actually. Testosterone.

• 1:00:59Chris Williamson?

  So you can use them in similar ways. They achieve similar things, like a leaner, more built physique. Why is it the testosterone's got this? Is it the sort of masculinized side of this? Is it aggression? Is it, what do you think?

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  I think it's the performance enhancing benefits in sports and that's created a dogma around.

• 1:01:17Chris Williamson?

  Well, everybody evidently.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  But like take sports out.

• 1:01:20Speaker 01

  It goes beyond sports though. I mean, there, there is simply a perception, I think, that, that if someone is on testosterone, they are taking a little bit of a shortcut. When it comes to muscle mass recovery.

• 1:01:32Speaker 03

  If they're low, are they to be shortcut?

• 1:01:34Speaker 01

  If they're hypo gonadal, they're not taking a shortcut. They're addressing a deficiency, but there's still the perception that you're not doing the work. And I think that feeds into, I think, I think some of it is the unfairness potentially of the sports performance angle as well.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  What happened to the antitanscendence?

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  What's the difference? Do you not think that the indication is wrong today? Like clinically low, too.

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  I have to be very careful about this. You are way too well read. So basically what he's saying is our indication of 300 nanograms per deciliter, it's in different countries depending on where you live. In Italy, it might be 350. That will determine what your definition of hypo gonadal is.

• 1:02:14Chris Williamson?

  So the lower range of normal from a normal adult male in the US at the moment is 300 nanograms per deciliter.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  And that's too low, in my opinion.

• 1:02:23Chris Williamson?

  What's the upper bound?

• 1:02:24Speaker 01

  You think that the lower range should be raised?

• 1:02:26Speaker 03

  I think that, again, I want to couch this very carefully as a practicing physician who does research in this area.

• 1:02:32Chris Williamson?

  This is not medical advice. This is a fucking bio academic.

• 1:02:35Speaker 03

  But listen, but so I'm going to give you the answer.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  Just pass it to me and I'll know it under the table and I can say it, I'm not a doctor.

• 1:02:40Speaker 03

  So what I'm saying is that it's not just the number. So there is other things that go into effect. For example, and I figured this out, I had a guy who, it was from Homeland Security and his testosterone was 600. And he had all the signs and symptoms of low T. And I'm like, brother, I'm not putting you on test. Just get more sleep, you're going to be great. And it turns out he had a CAG repeat, a CAG repeat. So the testosterone that he had wasn't effective because he had issues with the receptors. We all have different receptors. A testosterone of 900 for you might equal a testosterone of 300 for Brigham.

• 1:03:18Speaker 01

  Right. And then the CAD repeat is not a SHBG free available testosterone. It's an actual receptor issue, whether or not it's getting converted into free. It's still not interacting with the receptor.

• 1:03:29Speaker 03

  And we don't test those routinely. It's primarily done in research where we're still gathering the data as what the impact is. But the idea that number one, that testosterone is going to cause harm in physiologic ranges. So if someone is 300 or 500, but feel like crap and it looks like they need testosterone, but they don't measure low. You know, in the medical world, we are, according to guidelines, not supposed to essentially treat that.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  That's where I was going. And a lot of that is insurance based too. And we go back to this whole conundrum of like, you can practice a sick care model and it's a challenge because every single personalized medicine is exactly that. It should be personalized. Each individual is different and their physiological response is different.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Insurance will cover $299, but not $301.

• 1:04:15Chris Williamson?

  Well, does, does TRT create the same problem that Ozempic does? Like people are pharmacologically solving a problem that lifestyle should have partially fixed. Is it an artificial solution to an artificial problem?

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  I think some people are, absolutely. I mean, that, that goes back to what I was saying earlier about lifting weights and micronutrient replenishment and relationships and sunlight and de-stressing and recovery and sleep. If you have all of those parameters in place, which a lot of people nowadays do, I think there can still be anything from environmental factors that influence testosterone availability. This is the endocrine disruptor discussion, you know, the plastic discussion, personal care products and foods wrapped in plastic, which I think can affect that. There is the industrial pollution, air pollution, even like light pollution having an effect on the stress and sleep component.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  Like I think we have a bigger uphill battle, including the fact that not a lot of guys are like chopping wood and building fences and hauling rocks outdoors. And so I think it's a cluster of factors that influence a modern lifestyle, putting you at a higher risk for hypo gonadal.

• 1:05:22Speaker 02

  We definitely have higher, higher levels of low T than we ever have as a society. But then you also look like my good friend, Callie Means breaks down the whole food system and ultra-processed foods. And when did we see that spike? The big changes started happening in the eighties and we can go back to like the infancy of how that occurred. As soon as the government began to regulate big tobacco, big tobacco, JP, uh, JP Philip Morris or whatever, went out and started acquiring most of the major food production companies. And most of those major food production companies pivoted from healthy foods, more hearty meals to ultra-processed foods. Ultra-processed foods have a 30 plus percent profit margin. A banana has like an eight to 10% profit margin.

• 1:06:04Speaker 02

  So it's our food systems, it's our glyphosate rules and regulations around our crops. All of those things are controlled in much bigger dynamics than.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  All I hear right now is that cigarette companies have made us less yoked. That's, that's the story.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  But here's the problem. Let's say you take the, you take the warfighter. Everything that we named here is a luxury. The idea that you can sun your perineum and that you can go to bed early and you can sleep in and you can reduce light pollution. These are all luxuries that a warfighter, a new mom are not going to have. And so if we restrict. So if we, if we restrict the ability to treat based on allowing them to solve for lifestyle factors first. There is enough evidence to support that low testosterone contributes to disease risk that I wouldn't wait. Why would I wait?

• 1:07:00Chris Williamson?

  You don't have the degrees of freedom within your lifestyle for certain people that have got constraints on their sleep, constraints on their ability to eat, et cetera. Yeah. I guess Ben, you, you experimented a lot, obviously every performance intervention under the sun. Where does testosterone rank for you? Like compared with sleep or resistance training or light or diet, stress, stuff like that? How important is?

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  In my defense, I actually have not sunned my perineum, so.

• 1:07:24Chris Williamson?

  Recently?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:07:28Speaker 01

  Since I've been in Austin, I haven't had the opportunity. The, um, I, I think it depends primarily on age, right? So I've been on testosterone for four years. I began when I was 40. The main thing I noticed was being able to recover a lot faster, uh, being able to hit the gym for, you know, what I do in the morning that keeps me sane, keeps me active and keeps me productive and keeps my head clear. I can continue to do that day after day, whereas I was noting a, like a significant increase in the amount of time that I needed for recovery between workouts, just based on HRV, based on soreness. So I would rank it. Higher and higher in order of priority, the older a man gets. I know we're talking about men, but obviously women are part of this discussion as well.

• 1:08:13Speaker 03

  Which they haven't really been studied.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  And I would say somewhere in the range of 35 to 40 years old, and most men, Gabriel probably has, has the, the actual demographic data somewhere tucked away in a giant book.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  It becomes pretty important. So I would say for me, as I age, increasingly important.

• 1:08:30Speaker 03

  Can I just?

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  One other thing that we should mention, of course, is the fertility discussion, right? The, the younger you are, and this is the problem with the old looks maxing community of dudes totally screwing themselves over from like a legacy and childhood standpoint when they're 16 years old. Um, we, we do need to bear in mind that a 30 year old who may be hypogonadal and may still face some of this uphill battle in terms of a post-industrial lifestyle or a modern lifestyle, keeping them that way and not being able to do things besides testosterone replacement therapy needs to know there's an impact on fertility and the practitioner needs to be aware of like methods to, to maintain.

• 1:09:07Chris Williamson?

  Did I froze my? I froze my sperm last year, just in case I ever wanted to get on TRT at some point. I'm not on it. And I was like, ah, I just feel like it's probably a good insurance policy and it is so cheap. You want to talk about some fucking patriarchy? One of the places that it definitely exists is how cheap it is for guys to freeze their sperm compared with you to freeze their.

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  Well, it's probably less expensive if you're using Mike's butcher shop down the street for the.

• 1:09:30Speaker 03

  But it's a great solution. And also we, just because someone goes on testosterone, there are, like you had mentioned, there are interventions like HCG. You have to work with a provider that knows, doesn't mean you're going to be infertile. 10% of men just at baseline have low fertility. 2% of men of like no sperm. So if a guy is hypogonadal and he's younger, he should still be treated. You should bank his sperm. You should give him the appropriate discussion, give him some HCG, but you wouldn't want to withhold a medical treatment. I, I just think it's a, it's a mistake. And if we don't de-stigmatize

• 1:10:09Speaker 03

  the idea that somehow testosterone is gonna ruin the world and make them bald and angry.

• 1:10:16Chris Williamson?

  It's wrapped up in a moral panic. And I'm kind of fascinated by, I've never thought about it before, but the equivalency of GLP's on one side.

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:10:23Chris Williamson?

  And testosterone on the other. Like morally, there shouldn't really be much difference between the two. One is helping you eat less and one is helping you build more muscle and your hormonal profile to improve. I get the sense that a good bit of it is that one side is quite male coded and one is to do with aggression and sort of dominance and pursuit and forward motion. And another is a somewhat more female coded, which is that it's helping you to lose weight, maybe it'll be a little bit more slender. And this looks like health and the other one looks more like luxury perhaps, or, or unnecessary enhancement. Yeah. Everybody knows a fat person that loses weight. It's like you didn't need that. So you can see it visually. You can't see someone's low testosterone in the same way. So I wonder, that's a really fucking interesting.

• 1:11:07Speaker 03

  But what happens when a woman goes on a GLP-1 and her testosterone is low? She tells her sister, I, I have low testosterone. I'm going to start testosterone. She's like, oh my God, you're going to start steroids? And then she was ashamed. But so we know that a person will go on typically a GLP-1 for two years and come off. Now, um, essentially there's a weight cycling. So it becomes a skinny fat situation and they've lost now lean tissue and they put on fat. And let's say in a, a profile of a decreasing milieu, her estrogen goes down, her testosterone goes down, all her hormones go down. But then because of the stigma, she's ridiculed or ashamed because now she's on steroids.

• 1:11:48Speaker 03

  And so in a moment where we have the ability to shift her life and her trajectory, she doesn't take it because of all the noise that she's now juicing. And that's a, that's a problem.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  I didn't even realize the stigma was that significant for women.

• 1:12:04Speaker 03

  It is. And testosterone for a man is the number one biomarker. There is no other biomarker that reflects the risk of type 2 diabetes, that reflects the risk of potential depression.

• 1:12:16Speaker 01

  And when you say biomarkers, I like the whole hormone panel.

• 1:12:18Speaker 03

  Out of all of them.

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  Total T, free T, everything?

• 1:12:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I mean, so I would say total testosterone because again, it's really free T, which is a really good point. But if I had to pick one biomarker, it would be testosterone. So let's say if we take that back to soldiers, if we, and we don't routinely screen them, that one biomarker will give us more information into their future than any other biomarker.

• 1:12:43Chris Williamson?

  I want to know what's happening with peptide access right now. Cause you were part of this big hearing that recently happened. If you're going to spend an hour in the gym, you might as well look hot and feel comfortable while you're doing it. And honestly, who wants to be in the background of a TikTok is highlight reel dressed like a chump. Gymshark makes some of the best men's and women's training gear on the planet. And something that I realized a few years ago is that when you actually like what you're wearing in the gym, you show up differently, you train harder, you stay longer and get way more high fives. The hybrid shorts are my go-to. They are the perfect length, super lightweight, easy to wash and dry. And their sleeveless t-shirts, what I've trained in every day for basically the last decade. They're the ideal fit. They're breathable. They hold their shape perfectly. No more looking like

• 1:13:24Chris Williamson?

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• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  No, thank you. That's a good question. So, um, I've been trying to ring the bell on this since it started. During the Biden administration, the FDA kind of in a vacuum blindsided the public by putting peptides on the naughty list and said, these 17 peptides are now considered dangerous to compound. Um, meaning overnight, the regulatory landscape shifted. And so compounding pharmacies like mine legally could not make a safe product that had been in the market oftentimes for more than five, six years. Um, and with no heads up, like we weren't seeing adverse safety data, nothing. Uh, one of the ways that I've tried to prove this is I submitted multiple FOIA requests, um, to the FDA over

• 1:14:35Speaker 02

  the last three years and they had not responded to a single FOIA request. Um, so when Secretary Kennedy was put into this position and was given the opportunity to try and drive change, this was one of the first things I discussed with him was, hey, we've submitted these FOIA requests. We haven't gotten answers. Industry's just asking for guidance. We're not making this, but you created a gray and black market overnight. And so just two weeks ago, they federally indicted a gray market peptide manufacturer out of Florida who was buying all of his API from China that was tainted with testosterone.

• 1:15:06Speaker 03

  An API.

• 1:15:07Speaker 02

  And so women were injecting.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Oh, testosterone.

• 1:15:10Speaker 03

  An API is the.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Pharmaceutical ingredients.

• 1:15:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:13Speaker 02

  So it's the base product that you use to compound the medication. Um, so that being said, after a lot of lobbying, begging, pleading and flights to DC, and thank God for guys like Joe, I'll say, you know, Rogan's been a voice on this and ringing the bell that, hey, why are we banning peptides? Why are we forcing people to gray and black market? We had a hearing. Um, so, and that's a crazy story in itself. We could write a book on it. Literally they had the, the group built out. Um, we submitted over 800 studies, 800, 5,000 pages of documents. Um, we did a retrospective analysis of 16 million patients that were on BPC 157. Out of that, we found three adverse events. Three adverse events.

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. Somebody sent that there by the hundreds of thousands of, of uses of multiple peptides, including BPC and like the, the number of adverse events was close to zero.

• 1:16:07Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  Almost.

• 1:16:08Speaker 02

  And versus, let's look at this is one of the largest retrospective analysis ever done of a medication. And so I want to be clear, cause another famous influencer clinician just took to the internet and tried to debunk this hearing. Uh, the hearing wasn't about efficacy. We, this is what, this is a confusion for people. It's all about safety because what people fail to realize, again, going back to the process and the legal structure, if you file for a new drug indication, what I am asking you for is to give me Medicare, Medicaid, TRICARE dollars. I'm asking you to force employers to cover a treatment for an employee because 90% of Americans get their coverage through employers. And so that's the reason insurance plans go up every year because

• 1:16:51Speaker 02

  they're monetizing all this stuff. And so this is not that world. This is a cash pay product for a patient using their hard earned money to decide under the supervision of a clinician to fulfill this prescription through a board certified pharmacy that is inspected by both the state and federal government. And we had a safe pathway and that pathway was removed in a vacuum with no evidence. And then we went and argued with evidence, submitted over 5,000 pages of studies and the FDA in, in this environment gave these clinicians literally like a week to review everything. So these doctors, these poor doctors are trying to cram for the test before they come in here. And we had submitted

• 1:17:32Speaker 02

  it a month in advance. And then the FDA releases a statement to the public with a black market peptide API data set saying, we are going to stand against this most likely, even if these clinicians vote yes. And by the way, here's a certificate of analysis from a compounding pharmacy. It wasn't a compounding pharmacy. It was a fucking black market manufacturer that had already been shut down.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  Why?

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  So it was very misleading. That's a difficult question to ask. I don't, again, when we sat in there, the clinicians began to get so frustrated that at one point, one of the FDA individuals said, hey, look, I just want to be clear, we're not intentionally hiding or misrepresenting data. And the clinician was basically saying, well, yeah, it really feels like that. Like, it doesn't feel like you were giving us a shot at this. They ended up overturning six out of the seven peptides.

• 1:18:22Speaker 03

  But here is-

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  And what was disappointing, though, is the FDA all voted straight line one way. The clinicians that use these products and are actually clinicians, end users in the medical space, all voted straight line yes. And it was like-

• 1:18:34Speaker 03

  But here is-

• 1:18:35Speaker 02

  -clear which pathways they were on.

• 1:18:37Speaker 03

  And this is a really good point, because maybe you can clear this up, is that physicians, practicing physicians, will say, well, why are there no randomized control trials?

• 1:18:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Speaker 03

  Why is this data mechanistic data? Why rodent models, animal models, if you can prove it mechanistically, then we should be able to see it in some type of randomized control trial. And I think that, as we know-

• 1:18:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's great, a great, so actually on BPC, we submitted, I think, four or six human studies. I can't remember, I don't want to tell, let's say four to be safe. At least four human studies. Now, the issue with a peptide is you cannot patent something that is readily available in nature. That's patent law in the United States. So, look at what's going on with the GLP-1s. A 503A patient-specific pharmacy can compound a GLP-1 weight loss drug. It is infuriating the big pharmaceutical cartels, because they're like, wait a second, we spent billions of dollars to make these drugs. And so, a lot of the pressure on peptides as a class has come because Big Pharma is monetizing these at a new level. And so, in one breath, you've got these big pharmaceutical companies telling

• 1:19:41Speaker 02

  the FDA, these are dangerous, these are this, these are that. In the next breath, Eli Lilly goes and spends $7 billion to acquire a peptide manufacturer out of China. Merck is attempting to patent over 200 potential future cutting peptides.

• 1:19:53Speaker 01

  But, but a lot of the physicians who are or were prescribing peptides, they, they have a pathway via an IRB to be able to start to gather data, right?

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  To actually-

• 1:20:05Speaker 02

  And there's-

• 1:20:06Speaker 01

  Like, show what's actually working in-

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  But again, IND, and this is the general gist of the FDA stance, from what I can gather, being at this, I testified and gave my two cents on what I think and where we are and how we got here. But the general rebuttal of the FDA as a stance is, well, we have an IND process. So, go get a new drug indication. And my rebuttal is, apothecary precedes Big Pharma. The founder of Pfizer was a compounder. Compounding has been in existence for over 100 years. In 1997, Congress passed a bill to protect compounders that said, we are going to allow the patients and clinicians to prescribe unique medications to a patient and provide accessibility. And the problem is, if we hand the keys to the castle over

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  to industry, and I said this in my speech to the Senate, if Eisenhower, everyone talks about Eisenhower's speech in the military industrial complex, the second half of Eisenhower's speech, he talked about the scientific industrial complex. And what would happen if we hand science over to industry? And if we allow industry to control our scientific processes and protocols? And that is where we are headed.

• 1:21:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  And that is terrifying, because what you will have is everyone getting the same dose GLP-1. You're gonna have everyone getting the same, because this is what we have a double-blind placebo-controlled trial on. And this is where academia drives me mad. Because when Rogan posted his pictures of plasmapheresis, some dipshit doctor like talks about how it wrecks the immune system. No, this is a 24-hour decrease in your immune response. And he talked about how there's no, this is not, this is pseudoscience. Plasmapheresis does have a double-blind placebo-controlled randomized trial. And that double-blind placebo randomized trial showed that it actually took 18 months off of your biological age on people over the age of 50. But people want to split hairs and decide when they want

• 1:21:56Speaker 02

  to use double-blind placebo-controlled randomized trials and when they don't.

• 1:22:00Speaker 03

  Well, here's what I've seen in medicine. But this is, what is so relevant here is that there's a need for improved care. And because there's a need, that's why people are reaching for peptides. That's why people are looking for plasmapheresis. Typically, the consumer, the patient, will drive forward, say, plasmapheresis for something that is different than, say, myasthenia gravis, or something that is an indication. But this is how we start to grow. I mean, before, no one thought mold was a thing. I moved to New York, I got really sick. And no one was talking about mold, or whatever, 15 years ago. And all my blood work was great, and I was living in, you know, staky botrys. And

• 1:22:45Speaker 03

  now, environmental testing is more of a thing, but there is the patient, and then there's the need that we have to fulfill. And hopefully, the science catches up. The idea of randomized control trials, I mean, they're valuable. We still need that for peptides. Maybe not within your sphere, but the general medical community, they need randomized-

• 1:23:05Speaker 02

  My, my argument is, this is an, this is about medical accessibility and medical freedom.

• 1:23:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  And if a patient, under the supervision of a clinician, under the guidance of the subject matter expert-

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  -wants to utilize a compound that is safe, who is the federal government to obstruct a safe pathway and force them to a dangerous pathway? And if people love randomized control trials, I would say, let's look at the products that have hit the market. What happened with OxyContin? What happened with all of the anti-inflammatories? What happened with antidepressants? In the second-largest retrospective study analysis of a drug that went through randomized control trials, what did we see? 25 years later, what we saw is antidepressants don't fucking work. They work for a small subset of the population. They barely differentiate from placebo, yet they increase suicidal ideation, suicidal tendencies, violent thoughts.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Most of the school shooters were on antidepressants. We have created a colossal disaster for a product that, in its own scale, that was developed from a Pfizer consultant, does not differentiate barely by one point from placebo. But yet, we've spent trillions of dollars on these medications.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  Public service announcement brought to you by Safron.

• 1:24:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:19Chris Williamson?

  Who gets to decide how much risk people should be able to take with their bodies? Like, should the FDA protect people from making bad medical decisions? Or, like, at what point, basically, how much evidence should be required before adults can access experimental treatment?

• 1:24:33Speaker 02

  That's a difficult one. I think it's risk reward. I say this with everything. Again, every, peptides are not a silver bullet, right? They're a tool in the tool belt. But for somebody who's, a real-world example is Brett Favre, he's diagnosed with Parkinson's. This Parkinson's is terminal. It is progressive. The doctors basically say, we've got nothing. But there are things that can help, that have a shot at helping. And a lot of those trials are in other countries and not accepted here. But there are modalities that he's getting benefits from. And those modalities are being obstructed. And so, I believe in a patient's right to choose. And one of the things we're working on here

• 1:25:14Speaker 02

  in Texas, Senator, or second, sorry, Congresswoman Laci Hull is going to submit a bill in Texas that's going to be called the Right to Try Act. And the Right to Try Act is going to try and provide patients in Texas with medical freedom. And we're trying to do the same thing at the federal level. The, the belief is, through citizens' petitions, if you're a chronically ill patient, or you have a terminal disease, or you have some sort of catastrophic debilitating issue, why is the government stopping you from using a stem cell product? Why is the government stopping you? You have, this is the end of your runway.

• 1:25:46Chris Williamson?

  Beyond the threshold of severity in terms of your health, you're allowed to throw anything that you want at the wall within reason?

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  I, I think you should. That's my-

• 1:25:53Speaker 01

  But still, a lot of that would still be out of pocket, though, right?

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  All of it's out of pocket. Yeah, none of this would be covered by insurance, which goes back to the main crux of the issue. Like, if somebody wants to spend their cash-

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:03Speaker 02

  -to sun their, you know, like, who are you to tell-

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  If I want to fly to Thailand for double B's, I can do it.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Speaker 01

  I just gotta pay for it myself.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  And so, where people are leaving the country to go get treatments, and it's like, these treatments should be available here. We don't need Big Brother impacting every decision. And I get, like, protecting the consumer, but where was that protection with glyphosate? Where was that protection with the antidepressants, with the OxyContin, with the level of corruption we've seen from our regulatory bodies that are supposed to be here to protect us? Right? And those people are swapping spit oftentimes with industry at a level that's nauseating, where-

• 1:26:43Speaker 03

  But it's challenging, because you might be doing something in a way that is ethical, but if you've got another compounding pharmacy, like in Florida, where they're putting all this crap, and how do we protect the people? I do believe in medical agency that people should have the freedom to do whatever they want. If they want to use a medication because they have five pounds to lose, they should be able to get to choose. We should not, as physicians, ever dictate what an individual wants to do. There has to be agency. But then the question is, how do we protect the people that don't know and think they're getting one thing?

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  I think we have to assess it as a different model. That's where I keep going with this. There's the insurance model and then there's the cash pay model. And in the cash pay model, we don't need a new drug indication that costs 300 to a billion dollars because it's going to stifle and limit innovation. And that entire model was built around a framework that was built by industry that has a reason to build a moat around accessibility of care. Because they are monetizing chronic disease at an astronomical level. That's why the average American in the eighties was on one prescription drug. And now the average American's on four or more prescription drugs. And everybody's made, but we're the sickest country developed nation in the world.

• 1:27:55Speaker 01

  So in a perfect world for you, like in a cash pay model, there would be right to try in every state.

• 1:28:00Speaker 02

  I think right to try and under the supervision of a clinician. That's an important caveat. Like, I believe in putting, I personally-

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  There's a doctor holding me back, crap.

• 1:28:09Speaker 02

  I believe in, I believe in the sacred relationship of a patient and clinician. I believe that most clinicians, when given the opportunity, want to do what is right for their patient.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:28:20Speaker 02

  And oftentimes their hands are tied and they will go, I, like, even you, you were very weary to say,

• 1:28:26Speaker 03

  yes, it's true.

• 1:28:27Speaker 02

  I have a patient who's sick, but I don't want to prescribe off label because it puts your license at risk.

• 1:28:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:32Speaker 02

  But that's a travesty because that patient needs help and we shouldn't have to look over our shoulder.

• 1:28:37Speaker 03

  I remember, um, this was during COVID. I had written a prescription for an indication for ivermectin for something. This was before it was all crazy. And I got a letter saying that if I ever did this again, that it would affect my license.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Addressing the horse pace doc.

• 1:28:54Speaker 03

  But it, but also this person, we test for parasites all the time. There was an indication, but whatever, they didn't care whether I had put that indication on.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  They shut us down as a pharmacy. They sent us a letter saying they would revoke our pharmacy license in the state of Texas.

• 1:29:07Speaker 01

  Same thing with ivermectin.

• 1:29:08Speaker 02

  If we ship one more prescription of ivermectin, that they would shut down our pharmacy. I can ship ketamine.

• 1:29:13Speaker 03

  But-

• 1:29:14Speaker 02

  I'm not allowed to ship ivermectin.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  You can ship me ivermectin if I have a horse though, right?

• 1:29:18Speaker 03

  But can you imagine as a provider being restricted, being told that-

• 1:29:22Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 1:29:23Speaker 03

  That I can't write a script for a-

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  That can help someone.

• 1:29:26Speaker 03

  But who, they, they don't know what I'm treating. We treat parasites all the time. And it was just, it's terrifying because providers, clinicians, we spent our lives dedicated to be able to care for people.

• 1:29:37Chris Williamson?

  Talking about experimental forward thinking stuff, getting into some fun things. What are the most exciting interventions that you've come across recently? Some of the most experimental things that you've been playing around with?

• 1:29:49Speaker 01

  Oh, man. I mean, uh, we were just talking about plasmapheresis. That's an interesting one, just because there's all sorts of different blood and plasma filtration protocols that people are turning to for microplastics, for lipid management, for mold.

• 1:30:03Chris Williamson?

  Can you explain the plasmapheresis?

• 1:30:04Speaker 03

  I did it by the way, it was so well.

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, like literally like pulling, pulling your, your, your blood out, filtering the plasma, replacing typically with, uh, either albumin or in some cases, like actual human plasma or like, um, Brigham has this, this soup of like stem cells and exosomes and all sorts of-

• 1:30:24Speaker 03

  I didn't get that one.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  Cool stuff that you could get put in. Um, and so the idea is it's like an oil change for the body. Um, and, uh, you know, there, there's even places, uh, like in, in Mexico and Europe that will do blood filtration, not just plasma, uh, different filtration mediums that are designed for different purposes. Like there's a heparin based filter that is designed for spike protein, right? Like, like a, like a sticky fly trap for spike protein, uh, for something like long COVID. Uh, there's another one called the marker filter that is for microplastics. That's a, a specific filtration medium for that. Um, so that's one that, uh, a lot of people are like electively doing out of pocket.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  A lot of times internationally, like TPE, like you can literally do that at Brigham's clinic. Like you can do a, a basic plasmapheresis very easily, you know, depending on, on how many times you're squeezing the little rubber ball that you get to hold two, you know, four or five hours, but you're just basically sitting in a chair, getting-

• 1:31:22Speaker 02

  And then the problem with that though is like, when, that, that was what I was alluding to earlier. When a guy like Joe posts that, immediately it's like, yeah, this is my moment for these clinicians. And they just tag his video and throw it up. And they're trying to just riff and like coast off of the momentum that he created for it, debunking it, right? And this is where I get, it's like, you're an academic. You're now trying to debunk a placebo controlled randomized trial. Like, at what point do we, like, pick, pick a side? Do you believe in randomized controlled trial or do you not? You know, like-

• 1:31:54Chris Williamson?

  Well, presumably they're saying that they have contrary data to the first randomized controlled trial?

• 1:32:00Speaker 02

  Well, his, his main thing is, uh, there's only one major study that demonstrated this and the rest is anecdotal. Um, but they've used plasmapheresis in hospital systems for decades.

• 1:32:10Speaker 03

  So plasmapheresis, so plasma is where they believe that the antibodies, so for example, if someone has a reaction to something within their body, depending on what the disease is, it exists within the plasma. It's concentrated somehow. Again, I'm not an immunologist, but to the best of my knowledge, within this plasma, it's also where toxins and all this other stuff live that say, wouldn't be able to be excreted by the body through urine or feces or sweat naturally. So plasmapheresis is used in hospitals to this day where they use it for things that are, you know, extreme.

• 1:32:44Speaker 02

  Burn victims, anyone who's been exposed to a level of mold and toxins. A real world example too, would be again, Jelly Roll, like I hate to keep saying it, but he, because he lost so much weight, he was chronically inflamed, even though we were doing a ton of things to bring down his inflammation. All of that weight loss, you can only sweat it out so much. You can only excrete it so many ways. It ends up putting a major load on the kidneys and the-

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  And a lot of it back to like classic things.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  And then it started impacting his sleep. And then as soon as we run him through plasmapheresis, he calls me, he's like, bubba, whatever the hell y'all just did, I have, I have not slept this great in years.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, people talk about like a sauna for, you know, do, do the natural version, just sweat it out. But I mean, if you, if you look at the size of, of a microplastic, they range, like the unit, uh, of measurement is a Dalton. And so the size of a microplastic ranges anywhere from like slightly under a hundred to, uh, up to a thousand Daltons. And what a sweat gland can actually pass through is like a hundred Daltons. So arguably maybe one tenth of the microplastic exposure that you have, you can actually sweat out in a sauna. And considering that most of the microplastics, for example, in the food supply, like a plastic packaging or drinking out of a cup in Starbucks are way larger than a hundred Daltons. You just can't get rid of that in the sauna. Like it's an inconvenient truth, but if it's getting into your body at this point, it's pretty difficult to remove it. There are, there are some gut binders.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  There's probably like 10 different supplement companies. Cause I'd like, yeah, just over the past few months, people have been like mailing me whatever. Like a sulforaphane based compound for microplastic removal or some other like binding, uh, binding stack that supposedly removes it from the gut and possibly via some sort of osmotic gradient from the tissue as well. But none of those are that proven. And so, so that's an example of like, well, at some point you just gotta filter it out. The problem with that is it's, you know, it's, it's a long and expensive protocol that not everybody's gonna do.

• 1:34:36Speaker 03

  But eventually maybe there will be a way to democratize it. We've seen that with a lot of medical treatments.

• 1:34:41Speaker 02

  That's the goal with all of this is to make it affordable for the masses. And I think the biggest thing I've seen is-

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  I think we should on Shark Tank, like to suck it and just-

• 1:34:49Speaker 03

  Wait, what is that? I've never seen that.

• 1:34:51Chris Williamson?

  How long does it take, how long does it take your body to replace the plasma? Because I think this is one of the concerns. You've got this period of time, you've gotten rid of all of this plasma.

• 1:35:00Speaker 02

  So you're immediately, well, what, what you'll do is we'll, we'll add back in albumin. And so you immediately-

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  At the same time.

• 1:35:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you immediately have that replenishment. The big critique is, or what people have tried to critique is there is a drop in a, in your immune system. But the truth is that drop is for 24 hours. So we were just talking to one of your buddies and he just did it, but then he got on a flight. I was like, oh man, I would not have done that.

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  And what happened? Did he get sick?

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  He felt rundown and not, not great.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  There's also the risk of the, the catheter, depending where that is placed, uh, having like, like a rupture or an issue.

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  But you have a compromised immune system for 24 hours. So that is a legitimate risk. And this is again, anything in medicine, you have that discussion. You make sure you tell that patient for the next 24 hours, you will have a compromised immune system. And then after that, your immune response is boosted. And all of that inflammation that was in the, in, in your plasma is removed. And all of those shock proteins and all these different things that are causing so many issues, we're basically taking out the trash and replacing years and years of inflammation and gunk and with albumin, young, clean albumin.

• 1:36:02Chris Williamson?

  What's albumin?

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  It, it's literally a, yeah, it's just a protein that instead of, and some people will replace-

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Same thing like the egg white. Egg white has a ton of albumin in it. It's just basically-

• 1:36:12Chris Williamson?

  Egg white, you're putting egg white?

• 1:36:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, very, very similar, yeah.

• 1:36:15Chris Williamson?

  Okay. What are the strongest longevity interventions that are cost free? Because much of this stuff sounds maybe difficult to access, people are outside of the country.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  So yeah, epidemiologically, yes, lifting. Grip strength is often identified as a metric, but it's not because people who have like big meaty hands live longer. It's because people who, who, who lift heavy objects and do some type of manual labor or artificial manual labor inside of a gym, tend to have high grip strength as a byproduct of that. So you're not going to live longer by having like a hand grip dynamometer in your car that you're squeezing all the time. It'll make a little bit of a difference, but physical activity that exhausts the grip would be one. Uh, VO2 max is another. And I think the, the misperception is that you need to do like these like fancy Norwegian four by four protocols to significantly increase VO2 max, meaning like four minutes maximum sustainable pace,

• 1:37:10Speaker 01

  balls to the wall, four minute recovery, four times through as a sample prescribed protocol for VO2 max. I mean, just yesterday, there was a study that came out that showed that small bursts, anywhere from three to five times a week of 10 to 20 seconds had an impact on VO2 max. So these are like tiny bursts, like on, like on an air dyn, just quick spurts.

• 1:37:29Chris Williamson?

  You think a VO2 max of muscle mass is more important when it comes to training for longevity? If you could pick one?

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Uh, I would, I would choose, if I had to pick one, I would choose muscle mass because I think low muscle mass, I'm not just saying this because Gabriel's sitting next to me.

• 1:37:47Speaker 01

  Higher risk for frailty and I think frailty is one of the, like not being able to outrun a lion is less likely to kill you than like stepping on the curb and, and being frail, like with the VO2 max equation, like joking aside, yes, VO2 max can have a significant impact on cardiovascular health, but you can get pretty good cardiovascular health, uh, including blood pressure management with strength training. So if I had to choose one, it's an unrealistic scenario anyways, based on how easy it is to do.

• 1:38:15Chris Williamson?

  You're gonna do both.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  You do both. And then the last one that I would name is like a free intervention. If we're not going to talk about like Harvard's longest running study on longevity and, you know, happiness, relationships, love, all of that.

• 1:38:28Chris Williamson?

  Have a friend.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Boring esoteric stuff aside, I would be walking speed. Um, yes, 7,000 to 8,000 steps a day is advisable, but the actual speed of walking, the, the, the pace, like the, the actual cadence of the walking is important. So VO2 max, grip strength and walking speed.

• 1:38:46Chris Williamson?

  What is, what's the specific term walking speed?

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't remember the actual like pace based on, uh, whatever you would measure.

• 1:38:55Chris Williamson?

  Quicker than you might think.

• 1:38:57Speaker 01

  The way I think about it is like walk slightly faster than what your brain wants to do. There, there was, I don't know if it's still available, a device called a counter pace, like a heart rate strap that you could wear that tied to ear pods that tracks your heart rate and then helps you maintain a cadence that matches that heart rate so that your foot strike is occurring during the diastolic phase of.

• 1:39:17Chris Williamson?

  No way.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  So you're essentially like teaching your heart how to pump with each step.

• 1:39:21Chris Williamson?

  So that's.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  Very similar like counter pulsation therapy they would do at a, at a hospital, uh, for, for like post-heart attack. Uh, but the idea is just like when you're walking, try to walk.

• 1:39:31Chris Williamson?

  It's like resonance breathing, but resonance walking.

• 1:39:34Speaker 01

  Kind of like that.

• 1:39:34Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. You're up and down with the breath, but this is your step in step with the heartbeat.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:39Chris Williamson?

  That's fine. Okay.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. Those would be three.

• 1:39:41Chris Williamson?

  I think if, if you were to, to look at the VO2 max versus muscle mass thing, if you were to say somebody is a, a five out of 10 on both, where would you stop? Because it seems to me that the muscle mass thing is largely talking about, uh, being protective in later life, frailty, falls, hip replacements, stuff like that.

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  Metabolic health.

• 1:39:59Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Um, I don't know. I just, coming from the background of being such a bro, VO2 max was never anything that anybody really considered. And it seems like that's really had the ascendancy recently.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  And it gets chased a lot as a number. It's largely reflective of cardiovascular health. I mean, it's definitely like, if you're competing as like, I don't, Iron Man marathon or swimmer or whatever, like VO2 max isn't, is important as a performance metric, but the reason that it tracks with longevity is not necessarily because maximum oxygen utilization is going to help you live longer. At least I don't think that. I think it's because it's reflective of overall cardiovascular health. In the same way that grip strength, you know, having strong hands that can hold on to something for a long period of time isn't going to make you live longer. But what you got you those strong hands is.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  Everything, everything Ben's saying is like, that's when I, again, go back to what you do, what we do, comparing it to traditional medicine, somebody comes in, the first thing we do is comprehensive blood work. That's one tool and the one assessment, but we also run them through a DEXA and then we do a VO2 max, a walking VO2 max to assess their cardiovascular condition. You give me those three things, I put it into the AI algorithm, I cross-reference all of that and we begin to model out all cause mortality and I can begin to project if you're headed towards a chronic disease. So like in traditional medicine, somebody shows up sick, you write them a pill, somebody gets it, you, you mask the symptom. And it's like, but why aren't we just practicing proactive predictive medicine? Um, like what you're doing in your practice, you can

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  prevent 1.7 million Americans are dying every year of chronic disease. That's more than every war we've ever fought in the history of America in a year, and it's all preventable.

• 1:41:36Speaker 03

  But it's not longevity and I, I wish there was another name for it because the reality is, and I, I think.

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  I think it's health span.

• 1:41:42Speaker 03

  I think it's muscle span, but yeah, health span. But I think, um, you know, as a geriatrician, which means I've taken care of a lot of dying people, that there is a one harsh reality and that is nobody gets out alive. No one. And so is this, you know, increase in longevity just a distraction from the end result, which is that we will all die. And at some point we have to recognize that, that it's going to happen. It is how we live within that timeframe and, you know, maybe there's a genetic push past 85. We don't know. I mean, there's genetic, genetics play a role. We know some people that smoke and eat tacos and live to be 105. So, um, yes,

• 1:42:27Speaker 03

  being strong, being capable, not restricting protein. I know that you had a guest that was talking about protein restriction. That's, that's, uh, not where I would say that, the.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Not a lot of people need to hear that right now.

• 1:42:39Speaker 02

  But my argument is always if we can buy you time, I would say if we can buy your health span time, keep you healthy longer. There are folks like David Sinclair, my buddy, Dr. Ian White. Ian's 22 years stem cell research at Harvard at the bench.

• 1:42:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, those are interesting.

• 1:42:56Speaker 02

  And what he'll break down is pretty crazy. And this is why I have dinosaurs and jellyfish at our clinic.

• 1:43:01Speaker 03

  I was wondering about that.

• 1:43:02Speaker 02

  He literally breaks down that we share a common ancestor with every species on earth. We share DNA with the eternal jellyfish. Within us is a black box code and there are companies in Texas right now that are doing gene activation and we can literally inject you with a, a virus that will go turn on a gene that has been turned off, right? We can tell your body to put on more muscle. We can turn on a gene that can increase bone mineral density eightfold. Um, these things exist today. And so my only thing, getting more into the biohacking woo woo like futuristic.

• 1:43:33Speaker 03

  I'm not going there.

• 1:43:34Speaker 02

  Can we buy you time? Can we through common practice, not the woo-woo's, to through just good old bread and butter, smart medicine, buy you health span.

• 1:43:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  Until one of these brilliant people crack the code of how do we turn on that gene? How do we turn on the jellyfish?

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Jellyfish gene where we all live for 150 years floating in water, glowing in the dark.

• 1:43:55Speaker 03

  Aging is not abnormal. The idea that we're not gonna, I mean, aging is normal, but the chronic disease, that's not normal. That's not a normal part of aging and we've come to normalize all of that. And that's a problem.

• 1:44:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:09Speaker 03

  So if we stop stigmatizing testosterone and allow us to replace the things that we need.

• 1:44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:15Speaker 03

  Then.

• 1:44:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, well, perhaps there's a through line here because, uh, if you down regulate fertility enough and don't have children, that might be a viable life extension strategy. Uh, sending a message to your, your lizard brain that you better stick around as long as possible because you have no progeny. So once you're gone, it's over.

• 1:44:33Chris Williamson?

  You gotta hold on.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  So yeah, basically probably, yeah, I would say the most significantly, potentially significantly uh, impactful life extension strategy.

• 1:44:40Chris Williamson?

  Not having kids.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  Don't have kids.

• 1:44:42Chris Williamson?

  Don't jerk off, don't have kids. Okay. What do you make about the criticism? So, uh, Dr. Daniel Lieberman, who came on the show and I asked him about what's he think the current recommendations coming out of, I guess, our side of the world around one gram per pound, one gram per kilo, per kilo to one gram per pound of body weight for protein. And he just sort of looked at him as like, I think it's overblown. I don't think that people need that much. Uh, it doesn't really seem to make that much sense to me from a longevity standpoint. It doesn't seem to be that much evidence. I've looked at every, every big diet on the planet.

• 1:45:14Speaker 03

  That's interesting. He wasn't invited to the protein working group, which was all the hundred finest scientists, protein scientists, and they disagreed on some things and they agreed on others. I don't know this gentleman, so it's not a knock to him, but in this room, these were the finest protein researchers from all over.

• 1:45:32Chris Williamson?

  Would that not mean that they're kind of biased?

• 1:45:34Speaker 03

  No, they don't all get along.

• 1:45:35Chris Williamson?

  So some of them are low protein researchers.

• 1:45:37Speaker 03

  So, well, yes, they are all the protein experts. Some agree on, uh, 1.1. So, I mean, they're all over the place. So what they do is they present the evidence to the best of the, their ability, the, all the evidence that have been done. Um, and what they came up with is that there is no evidence that going below the minimum requirement has benefit at all.

• 1:46:01Speaker 01

  Going below like 0.55 grams per pound.

• 1:46:04Speaker 03

  They argued, is it, could you go from, is 1.1 better than 1.4? Potentially is anything better than 1.6 grams? No, no one agreed that. So that's not one gram per pound.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Protein cycling, like, like, like the idea from like an autophagy standpoint of like a fasting mimicking diet on a quarterly basis, or a period of protein restriction to simulate, or stimulate autophagy.

• 1:46:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  And then most of the time you're actually eating, whatever, the 0.8 to 1.2 grams.

• 1:46:33Speaker 03

  So to be clear, I was not invited there as a guest researcher, but I was there interviewing these guys. And one of the things that was interesting is that in terms of human trials, it seems as though the sweet spot for aging and optimal health to find that, as you will, is closer to 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg. So it's not one gram per pound, which is what I recommend. It's slightly below that. Um, and what you're talking about is this idea of protein cycling. So the body turns over 250 to 300 grams of protein a day. As we age, we become less efficient at that, liver turnover, all of this stuff. As we age, if we then begin to restrict protein,

• 1:47:18Speaker 03

  this is not moving in a positive direction. And all the aging, there's no aging data in humans that would suggest that that would be beneficial.

• 1:47:26Speaker 02

  Is his argument that we're over consuming protein?

• 1:47:29Speaker 03

  The data doesn't support.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  I was gonna say, because most people, I feel like everyone I know doesn't.

• 1:47:32Speaker 01

  I think he was making epidemiological case.

• 1:47:35Speaker 03

  Or observational or association.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  If, if I know the Lieberman you're talking about, that you don't come across a lot of long-lived cultures who are feeding at the levels that are currently recommended, you know, by, by a, you know, a kook like this.

• 1:47:49Speaker 02

  Here's what's challenging. Do you not see, cause I, yeah, I'd like to keep it simple stupid because my brain's not smart enough to figure all this out.

• 1:47:57Speaker 03

  I did give you my book, which has pictures.

• 1:47:58Speaker 02

  Yes. And I've read, I've read, but what I.

• 1:48:00Chris Williamson?

  Brigham tried to color them in. That's why.

• 1:48:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. I was, I thought it was a coloring book.

• 1:48:05Speaker 03

  To be fair, my, the Forever Strong playbook, I will give it a plug. It took me two years to write and it has pictures to make it simple and stupid.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  And it's digestible. I love, I love it. And my, my main thought was.

• 1:48:14Speaker 01

  He actually ate it.

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  Is we, yeah, if we prioritize, I've learned in my life, if I prioritize protein, it is a caloric, dense, nutrient-rich aspect of my diet and I will eat less of the ultra-processed, less of all the bad things. Just anecdotally, I'm not saying there's no science behind what I'm saying. I'm just looking at it going, if I prioritize protein, it fills me, it, it.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  It's hard to calorically overfeed on protein.

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  I can't, oh, it's hard to overeat. Yeah. If I eat a steak, I'm done.

• 1:48:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:48:43Speaker 02

  Right. And so do you not see a value in, or would he not see a value in prioritizing protein first as part of your diet?

• 1:48:51Speaker 01

  You're, you're, you're arguing for the benefits of protein intake as a calorie restriction mechanism.

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  Yes. And do you know

• 1:49:00Chris Williamson?

  I imagine, I imagine he would, I imagine he would do too. I think my question was something like, what do you think about one gram per pound of body weight?

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  It's on the higher end, yeah.

• 1:49:06Chris Williamson?

  That seems, that seems to be more than is necessary. I

• 1:49:09Speaker 03

  I would agree with that statement. That is more than is necessary.

• 1:49:12Speaker 01

  I mean, it depends too. Like I have 18 year old sons and they're probably hitting 1.4 to 1.5 grams per pound right now, based on my grocery bills. Um, but they're also highly anabolic. They're doing like wheats, they're lifting every day. So, uh, it's, it's pretty population specific.

• 1:49:28Chris Williamson?

  What about

• 1:49:29Speaker 03

  That is exactly what they came to in the summit.

• 1:49:32Chris Williamson?

  What about fiber? Because I, I'm, I've been pretty good at sort of licking my finger, putting it in the air and working out what way the wind's blowing. I think the protein thing everyone could see a little while ago, creatine, I was early on creatine. I was early on, uh, water quality. I think air quality, stuff like, uh, Jasper and mold. I think that's going to be a huge thing.

• 1:49:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:49:51Chris Williamson?

  Next, after that, I think is going to be light, light quality and light pollution, I think. And it's slowly sort of trickling through the echelons of, of, of health. Fiber to me seems to be just about sort of taking that, it's at the hockey stick moment here. And I get the sense that protein and fiber are going to be a little antagonistic to each other when it comes to designing a diet. So I'm interested in what you guys think when it comes to fiber, optimizing gut health. Everyone gives a fuck about bloating and digestion and leaky gut.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  That's exactly, is, I, I, I don't think that, that, uh, high protein intake necessarily rules out fiber. But what you were just saying is the one thing that flies under the radar. Yes. Uh, fiber, um, is, is beneficial for everything from glycemic variability to bowel movements, to, uh, the, the microbiome and the fact that it's, it's often a food for, uh, probiotics, leading to postbiotic production. The issue is the large number of the population that has issues like small intestine bacterial overgrowth or diverticulitis or some form of, of, of IBS or an issue that results in them hearing that the giant ass kale salads are a really good idea.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  And that they should put a bunch of spinach in their smoothies and it just totally F's them over and they're painting the back of the toilet seat. So I, I think that it depends again, I'm like, what the gut biome looks like and what someone's, especially like, like the gas production by specific bacteria in the gut looks like before you decide what kind of fiber someone should be on. Or the fermentable nature of that fiber, like inulin and chicory root and shit, like that completely screws some people over as far as gas and bloating.

• 1:51:30Chris Williamson?

  It feels

• 1:51:30Speaker 01

  And then for other people, it's great gut food.

• 1:51:32Chris Williamson?

  It feels like fiber is much more, uh, individually variable, that you could probably look at most people and say, yeah, if you had like one gram per kilo of body weight of protein, like you'd probably be all right. Whereas, yeah, if you threw a bunch of oxalates at one person from spinach that's not been cooked, they're going to have a very different response to somebody else who doesn't have that kind of gut microflora.

• 1:51:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that's, I think that is a frontier that we don't know enough about. My prediction is the food matrix conversation is next. The bro bodybuilding sphere, we're great. There's, uh, I guess I would include myself in there. Boiled chicken, egg whites, we know what the protein is. We know the macros, rice, chicken. But what we don't know is how, for example, there was a study that came out on high fat dairy. We don't actually understand how the fat in dairy, the compounds then work with the protein and the carbohydrates within that food matrix. It's not repeatable. It's not supplementation. It is within the dynamic of, say, for example, a steak. Yes, has protein, yes, has B vitamins, but it has anserine, taurine.

• 1:52:37Speaker 03

  It has these other, what you imagine as a phytonutrient in plant. It has its own carny nutrient and it's how those all fit together. We don't really know how the foods all work together.

• 1:52:51Chris Williamson?

  Is it possible for you guys to give general advice when it comes to fiber and eating for gut health through a diet? Because it seems again, this fingerprint, each person's flora is slightly different, da, da, da, da, da. What are the, we can say, hey, one gram per kilo of body weight protein, that's probably a good baseline. Can you give me equivalent baselines when it comes to fiber intake for humans who just want to have good diets?

• 1:53:16Speaker 03

  Well, I can cheat here because I'm a doctor, so we test. We don't guess. We do stool tests, we do breath tests, we do tests. So if you have small intestinal bacteria overgrowth, we would treat that. We would put you on a diet that was essentially low FODMAP. So there's, there's ways that you can experiment, but also test. So you're guessing less.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  And low, low FODMAP isn't necessarily synonymous with low fiber, but you're literally limiting

• 1:53:39Speaker 03

  That's true.

• 1:53:39Speaker 01

  fructans, oligosaccharides, disaccharides, uh, what else? Uh, monosaccharides and volvials? And so these are specific compounds that if you were to Google high FODMAP diet, you would want to avoid because those are sources of fiber that would cause gas and bloating. But that doesn't mean that you can't eat fiber at all. You can do like, like on a low FODMAP diet, you can do like chia seeds slurry, right? Like put a bunch of chia seeds in water, soak them, have that as like a pudding. Um, uh, a lot of times like seeds and nuts, you know, the, the fiber in the skin in those, that would also be acceptable. But then like apples, pears, garlic, onions, all that stuff would be out. And in some cases like mixed greens, romaine lettuce, like a lot of things you'd find in a salad.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  Those are fine, you know, kale, it kind of depends. Cause then there's the whole thing you brought up, which is like, is oxalate sensitivity an issue? So Gabriel makes a great point. It's like, we now live in an era where you could get like a Genova diagnostic stool test. You could get a TrioSmart, you know, a SIBO breath test and see if you're reactive to certain fiber based foods. Those tests are not that expensive.

• 1:54:42Chris Williamson?

  We can't just give this, now, hey, you're going to breathe into a tube every fucking 20 minutes for a couple of hours.

• 1:54:46Speaker 01

  What you could say is like, have 40 grams of fiber a day or more. And if you have gas or bloating, when you start doing that, go get tested to figure out what's causing the gas.

• 1:54:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, we always say yes, but, yeah, we always will say yes, but like, yes, this is a good rule of thumb, but there's always outliers. Everybody's different. Personalized medicine should take a personalized touch. To do that, it requires the analytics and the data to have the knowledge of you specifically, and you're a unique individual. So let's look at you as a unique individual and tailor a unique program. And it sounds like almost that's what you are both saying.

• 1:55:20Chris Williamson?

  This is why people feel overwhelmed by health, I think, in the modern world. So like, oh, well, I've got to go and get this fucking special fingerprint thing done. And I don't know where to go. And maybe I'm in a country that can't provide it, or maybe I'm going to have to pay out of pocket and I can't afford it. And then I'm going to do, and then I'm going to adjust on that stuff.

• 1:55:32Speaker 01

  I mean, there, there, there are workarounds and there are levels, like for example, with what we're talking about with the, with the, the FODMAP and the SIBO issue. There's like an at home breath testing device called a food marble. And it gets a pretty decent corollary. It's not as good as like a more expensive lab based test, but it can help you to keep track of primarily the fiber based foods that would cause something like bloating. The other thing is just simple food elimination, right?

• 1:55:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:55Speaker 01

  You guys know like, this is the old school tactic for, well, let's cut everything out. Let's start from scratch. And you're going to have steak and chicken and fish and maybe some sweet potato mess, kind of like a

• 1:56:05Chris Williamson?

  White rice.

• 1:56:05Speaker 01

  Like a paleo-esque type of approach. And then you could start to add in some grains, some dairy, some different forms of fiber. And you're going to get to the point where you can identify within like four weeks.

• 1:56:15Chris Williamson?

  An app, right? To track, okay, what was it that I added in?

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Use an app. I mean, you, you can easily use like a clutter GPT model now to literally say, okay, here's everything I ate. Here's my gas and bloating symptoms. And within four weeks, you're going to get a pretty good map of the culprits.

• 1:56:28Speaker 03

  It doesn't have to be complicated to be effective and we live in the information overload. And that's the disease. The disease is distraction. We can fully simplify. People know what works well for them. If they don't, they can track it. But you eliminate, you keep it simple and you add things in slowly. I think we overcomplicate it.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what we were saying. That's kind of where I was going with the protein is, as I say, don't let, you know, don't let perfection get in the way of progress. And it's baby steps. You don't have to be perfect. Just be better. Make slightly better choices. Test things out. Like you're not going to die if you try a fiber and it doesn't work out for you and you're bloated and have stomach upset for a few days.

• 1:57:07Speaker 03

  There was a pear bezoar. Someone ate, it was something like, uh, 300 pears. And they actually got a, you know, the hair, hairball of a, um, it's actually called a pear bezoar. And it created a small bowel obstruction.

• 1:57:21Chris Williamson?

  Who the fuck eats 300?

• 1:57:22Speaker 03

  There was one case study.

• 1:57:24Speaker 01

  I think 300 of anything is going to cause a small bowel obstruction.

• 1:57:27Speaker 03

  It was a case study.

• 1:57:28Chris Williamson?

  I can easily do 300 blueberries too.

• 1:57:30Speaker 01

  I will take on the small bowel obstruction challenge. I could make it happen. Do you guys follow a specific diet?

• 1:57:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's called a forever strong playbook.

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 1:57:39Speaker 03

  No, no. So it's a higher protein diet. I don't eat a ton of processed food at all.

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  Prioritize protein. We make it very simple. I have two crazy kids.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  What about like grains, dairy, like a lot of the stuff that people?

• 1:57:52Speaker 03

  And I think we're starting to see that it has a protective effects. We do high fat dairy, fermented foods. The one thing that we don't eat is a ton of packaged processed foods.

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:03Speaker 03

  Be aside from like beef sticks.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:58:05Speaker 03

  But it's sweet, sweet potato, will eat rice. I'm not a low carb person.

• 1:58:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, it sounds, it sounds very like Weston A. Price-ish where like grains aren't eliminated, but they need to be like fermented or soaked or sprouted. Dairy is like the full fat varietal, good meats, fermented vegetables.

• 1:58:24Chris Williamson?

  Where have you come into land now, Ben? Obviously you've experimented.

• 1:58:26Speaker 01

  Um, I'm, I'm pretty close to a paleo diet with a lot of fermented vegetables. That like I like, most of my carbohydrates are like underground storage, uh, organs like sweet potato, yam, purple potato, berries and honey. Most of my vegetables are kimchi, sauerkraut, um, and then a lot of hunted wild game meat. Uh, super clean fish that is farmed, not wild caught. So I know the exact sourcing and that it's clean, what it's been fed. Steak, chicken, poultry or, um, um, pastured pork.

• 1:59:04Speaker 01

  And then I do like my dessert is typically, uh, coconut yogurt. Like I go through that, uh, what was it called? Coco June?

• 1:59:12Speaker 03

  So good.

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 1:59:14Chris Williamson?

  That's the brand.

• 1:59:15Speaker 03

  Oh, it's so good.

• 1:59:16Speaker 01

  Coco June, blueberries, dark chocolate is not only my dessert, but I've eaten twice today and that was my meal was just Coco June, blueberries, dark chocolate. And then, and then a little bit of nuts, Brazil nuts, and, uh, that's pretty much it.

• 1:59:30Chris Williamson?

  Where are you?

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Besides all the peptides.

• 1:59:32Chris Williamson?

  Where are you getting your fish from?

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  A company called Sea Topia. They've got like 30 plus different farms around the world and they very tightly control what the fish is fed. They are tested for things like microplastics, uh, parasites, and then they flash freeze and shipped to your house. And they've got a pretty good varietal, just like or a king salmon and halibut, uh, some shellfish, scallops. And it's the cleanest stuff I could find.

• 2:00:01Chris Williamson?

  What was that steak company that you?

• 2:00:03Speaker 01

  And I hope they've got a check in the mail now to me. Uh, the, the.

• 2:00:06Chris Williamson?

  Cause that was insane.

• 2:00:07Speaker 01

  Okay. So this crazy breed of cattle that originates.

• 2:00:11Chris Williamson?

  Yes. Piedmontese, Piedmontese fucking rules.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:14Chris Williamson?

  Shout out. No more Piedmontese.

• 2:00:16Speaker 01

  Piedmontese, kind of. So this breed of cattle originated from the Middle East and A, they have the myostatin knockout gene.

• 2:00:25Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 2:00:25Speaker 01

  Meaning they've got this like unparalleled muscle growth.

• 2:00:28Speaker 03

  They're jacked.

• 2:00:29Speaker 01

  Big Arnold Schwarzenegger-esque cows. The result of that is that the muscle fiber thickness is like 116th diameter of a normal like Angus cow. So it's super digestible, like a medium rare is like 95 degrees. That's how fast it cooks. But then these cattle have also developed based on their origination, sweat glands, which is also something that is less common. But one of the key contributors to, um, to off flavored or tough meat in general, whether it's hunted meat or farmed meat or anything else.

• 2:01:02Chris Williamson?

  Sweaty cows.

• 2:01:03Speaker 03

  I have no idea.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  It's cortisol. So cortisol up regulation causes calcium influx, basically the, the, you know, the effects of like.

• 2:01:10Chris Williamson?

  Stressed sweaty cows.

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  Chronic rigor mortis, but a cow that can manage thermal stress eliminates one of the most common sources of cortisol in cattle, which is like, being subjected to extremes of heat or cold and being unable to deal with it. So these cows wound up in Canada. There was like a Canadian farmer up north on the west side who had like one bull and three cows. A guy, a horse farmer in Washington state connected with these folks in Canada like 30 years ago.

• 2:01:41Speaker 03

  This better be the best.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  Shipped some across the border.

• 2:01:44Chris Williamson?

  This is like the Adam and Eve of the cow world.

• 2:01:46Speaker 01

  A year and a half ago, I get an Instagram message from this farm by Spokane and they're like, we have the only 100% pure Piedmontese beef in all of North America and you can only find this stuff now in Italy and the Middle East.

• 2:02:01Speaker 03

  I've talked to these guys.

• 2:02:03Speaker 01

  Hasn't been bred with Angus, which, so a lot of the Piedmontese is like 75, 25 or 50, 50. So then I actually went to the farm.

• 2:02:10Chris Williamson?

  Purebred.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  Long story short, is I'm like, was it grass fed, grass finished? They're like, no, it's like grass fed, acorn fed, pressed wine, grape skin fed, carrots. Like customized from, customized from birth. And so, so long story short is I got a whole steer and these things are massive. It, I, I got it like almost two years ago and I'm still, or they store it all at the farm and then they shipped to me. So I'm still ordering off this spreadsheet. Like me and my wife and 18 year old sons have still not eaten this whole cow.

• 2:02:42Chris Williamson?

  It's like a timeshare for food.

• 2:02:43Speaker 01

  That's the meat. It is, it is the weirdest.

• 2:02:45Chris Williamson?

  He dropped shit me some and all I knew.

• 2:02:47Speaker 03

  I tried to taste it. I was not able to get some.

• 2:02:50Speaker 01

  So lean. They, they butchered it and I'm like, I would love to have some of the tallow because you know, tallow is great to cook with and do your potatoes with. They're like, dude, there is no tallow. These things are so lean that they're just like no dripping, no fat whatsoever. So when you cook it, I actually use a lot of extra like olive oil, towel, extra or tallow, extra fat, because I think the flavor profile, when you don't have the fat is just still a little bit too lean. But yeah, that's, that's the stakes. They're called, called Monzo.

• 2:03:19Speaker 03

  So the, the listener or the watcher is thinking, I'm never going to get that cow. You know, I tried to get some of this meat. I couldn't get it. I talked to the founder. I'm like, how many cows do you guys have? I'm like, VIP meat. It goes to the, the professional footballers.

• 2:03:30Speaker 01

  NHL.

• 2:03:31Speaker 03

  They do. They do. Okay. But for the other people, there are meal delivery services. I use one that's only in Texas and Oregon and Denver. Um, and they use, there's this company, hush, what are they? Not Piedmontese, what is it grazing? There's another one. Well, anyway.

• 2:03:48Speaker 01

  I don't know. Do the delivery drivers have sweat glands though?

• 2:03:51Speaker 03

  But I just say that for someone who's listening. So anyway, there is a company and it's called My Fit Foods and they're available in Texas. They use grass fed, grass finished. It's for those of us that can't get the crazy.

• 2:04:03Chris Williamson?

  What about beans? I haven't heard you say anything about beans in your diet.

• 2:04:05Speaker 03

  They have beans in it.

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  Beans do not agree with me, so I don't want to talk about those. Uh, no, it is, it is interesting.

• 2:04:12Chris Williamson?

  I'm thinking soluble fiber. That's a big, big thing.

• 2:04:15Speaker 01

  The whole like Blue Zones data, which, which is rife with, with birth, birth record issues and falsified data. But I think you could make a case that legumes and beans in general do provide good fermentable substrate for the microbiome. It's just that in many people, including myself, those bacteria produce massive amounts of gas. I'm not a chili guy. I don't know about you guys, but.

• 2:04:38Chris Williamson?

  I love, I, I love chili. I don't know whether it loves me, but I absolutely love it.

• 2:04:43Speaker 03

  So why the fiber? Why are you interested in fiber right now?

• 2:04:46Chris Williamson?

  I, I just have this prediction, seeing what's happening with probiotic fiber at the moment, Olly Pop, Poppy, Bloom Pop, that, that whole world. Looking at what happened with AG1, with companies like Seed, with David Beckham's new thing, IMA. Like everybody is, if you want to sell shit to women, put bloating on the front of a piece of packaging.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:08Chris Williamson?

  Every woman's worried about bloating. How much of this is just artificial solution to artificial problem? Tons of high calorie, highly processed foods, sugar, fermented foods. Maybe there's some EPG in there or some other bullshit going on. Like whatever it is that's happening, it's causing people to feel digestively off and now they're looking for what the solution is. I, I, we've already been through the protein revolution, creating revolutions happening now. I, I already know. I think people are now buying more fiber supplements than protein supplements. That was a.

• 2:05:40Speaker 01

  I think the problem is though, that paradoxically fiber contributes to a lot of the issues that you just described. And, and I think the, the elephant in the room is that one of the primary causes of all of that gas and bloating is lack of digestive enzyme, uh, production and, um, uh, slowed gastric emptying. And most of the things that happen when you eat quickly or in a stressed out state, which basically defines a lot of our culture's eating habits. So I, I think that like slow, slow eating and eating in, in a parasympathetic state would be way better for people's gas and bloating than like sucking down a ball of inulin.

• 2:06:16Chris Williamson?

  Did you see that study that came out recently looking at people eat, people's eating speed in the GLP-1, endogenous GLP-1 release? Did you see this? Can you explain it?

• 2:06:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the body releases GLP-1 naturally. Typically it rides, and I didn't see this study particularly, but it rides with protein. So once you get a protein bolus, it should release GLP-1. It should be very short-lived and it should be done. Protein increases satiety through this mechanism. Also I, I believe that there's some fat, but the faster you eat, the faster it gets there. I'm assuming that the GLP-1 would have less.

• 2:06:51Chris Williamson?

  Grazing more slowly meant that you got a higher release of GLP-1, which meant that you were more satisfied more quickly.

• 2:06:57Speaker 03

  Satisfied, but the question is how long does that? Yeah. How long does that last? That would not be comparable to a long half-life of a GLP-1.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:07Speaker 03

  Period.

• 2:07:07Speaker 01

  I mean, all I know is that if you look at digestive enzyme production and you you look at like vasodconstriction, lack of blood flow to the gut, slowed gastric emptying, like it is better for you to not suck down your superfood smoothie while you're driving 60 miles an hour down the highway on your way to work. And I'd rather just see someone fast or wait until they can actually be in a parasympathetic state to eat.

• 2:07:31Chris Williamson?

  What's the current data around fasting? Because it seems to have been bunked and rebunked so many times. Autophagy, maybe it does work, maybe it doesn't work.

• 2:07:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:42Chris Williamson?

  Is it just calorie restriction? Is it an easier route to calorie restriction? Is there something super special about 16 eights or?

• 2:07:48Speaker 01

  So, so the, the basic idea is that when you, when you go head to head, something like an intermittent fasting study with overall calorie restriction, there is no big winner. There's nothing magic about fasting that beats out just like shoving fewer calories into your gaping maw. The, the advantage is that with a compressed feeding window, it becomes more difficult to eat excess calories. And that's mostly the case until you get past about the 18 hour mark of fasting. Past the 18 hour mark, that's when you start to see cellular autophagy and a lot of these longevity mechanisms kick in that could make

• 2:08:29Speaker 01

  the case for an occasional longer fast. Obviously, like activity level and what kind of anabolic phase of life that you're in, et cetera, would dictate that. But my recommendation to most men is like a 12 to 16 hour overnight intermittent fast. And every once in a while, go longer than 18 hours, like a 24 hour dinner time to dinner time fast, like once a month, for example. And then back to that protein cycling, protein restriction thing, something like a quarterly fasting mimicking diet, right? Where you're slightly underfeeding protein, slightly underfeeding calories, but it's just for a few days to simulate like a famine type of scenario. Yeah. And then for, the reason I said for men is for pre-menopausal

• 2:09:09Speaker 01

  women, regularly fasting for longer than 12 hours may have an impact on kisspeptin, which is upstream of LH and FSH, which are fertility related hormones. And so, women closer to 12 hour mark, guys close to 12 to 16 hours, post-menopausal women would be closer to the 12 to 16 hour mark. But that's, that's basically the way that I do fasting is 12 to 16 hours intermittent fast daily, quarterly fasting mimicking diet about once a month, 24 hour dinner to dinner.

• 2:09:37Chris Williamson?

  So you're saying there is something special in the autophagy, in the cell clearance intermittent versus grazing and just restriction?

• 2:09:45Speaker 01

  Uh, once you get past 18 hours, but in most cases, the definition of intermittent fasting is not these like long one to three day fast. Intermittent fasting is typically like a daily compressed feeding window, and usually it tops out at around 16 hours.

• 2:10:00Chris Williamson?

  But you think there is some special source in a 24 hour fast?

• 2:10:03Speaker 01

  There is occasionally. You just have to balance like the anabolic, catabolic scenario.

• 2:10:07Speaker 03

  There's other ways to do it. Through training, there's, there's different mechanisms.

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  Cold, thermal stress. Yeah, there's, there's other ways. And so if you are somebody who is, um, who is at risk of frailty, or you're just trying to yoke, or whatever.

• 2:10:22Chris Williamson?

  At risk of frailty listens to this podcast.

• 2:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:24Speaker 03

  That's not true. My mom does.

• 2:10:25Chris Williamson?

  She's not at risk of frailty?

• 2:10:27Speaker 03

  This is true.

• 2:10:27Speaker 01

  I gave girls mom.

• 2:10:28Chris Williamson?

  What, talking about longevity tests, you know, we're looking at the things that people should be paying attention to. Where do you think people are wasting money or effort or time the most, either on diagnostic or so intervention side things for health more generally? Like, is there a particular type of test that's widely regarded that people think is bullshit? And what do you reckon?

• 2:10:51Speaker 02

  Hmm. I mean, there's, there's ones that like we even do, but it just gives you more knowledge, like the MTF HR, but you can do that through process of analysis of elimination, like you had said, like cutting, adapting which supplements you take and using methylated supplements. There's, is it a necessity? No. If you, you could just do that through process of elimination and save money.

• 2:11:13Speaker 01

  I think, um, and this might be a little bit of a contrarian stance, but I think there is a great deal of emphasis placed right now on cardiovascular risk potential based on either a cardiovascular risk score, right? Do you have high blood pressure, smoking history, family history of cardiovascular disease, et cetera? And what does your lipid panel look like? Right? Not, not just like the basic stuff like LDL, HGL, triglycerides, LP little a, apple B. The issue is that that can be a clue, but definitely not a telltale sign of actual plaque deposition in the heart. And I am increasingly convinced

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  after seeing so many people come back from their CCTAs, like an angiography of the heart, like a CT scan.

• 2:12:01Chris Williamson?

  Clearly.

• 2:12:02Speaker 01

  Usually with AI based diagnostic imaging, clearly.

• 2:12:04Speaker 03

  Hard and soft.

• 2:12:05Speaker 01

  To actually show, yes, where hard, more stable hard plaque, which you would typically see in more of like an athletic population who scarred up their heart a little bit, or unstable, more likely to break loose plaque resulting in a stroke or a heart attack lies, right? So the AI based diagnostic imaging can tell you that. And the reason that's important is because in many cases, people, including myself, have a pretty good lipid panel, right? LDL, HGL, triglycerides, yada, yada, yada. But then you do the CT angiography and you actually see plaque deposition that if not monitored and addressed, either allopathically with like a, like low dose statin or a PCSK9 inhibitor or some of those.

• 2:12:44Chris Williamson?

  Repatha, something similar.

• 2:12:45Speaker 01

  Exactly. Or, um, more non-traditionally, right? With enzymes like lumbar kinase, nattokinase. Um, there's a new cyclo-dextran that's, that's, that's being in trial right now to actually break down the plaque. You actually could be at risk and not even know it. Or you could alternatively like be on a statin or a path or whatever else due to high cholesterol and not even need it because you don't have any plaque deposition. So the idea of like imaging for the heart, you know, indirect answer to your question is like, I think myopically focusing on a lipid panel is either A, causing people to be prescribed to medication that they might not need, or B, telling them they're okay, when in fact there can be significant plaque.

• 2:13:30Chris Williamson?

  So you're saying rather than obsessing over lipid panel, you would just go and get a clearly.

• 2:13:34Speaker 01

  I think anybody who has a history of hard exercise, anybody who has a family history of cardiovascular disease, I'm not a doctor, by the way, don't take this as medical advice. Uh, I think even like perimenopause, uh, you know, that the risk goes up significantly.

• 2:13:48Speaker 03

  We always get what you're saying.

• 2:13:49Speaker 01

  Should get it.

• 2:13:50Speaker 03

  I agree with.

• 2:13:51Speaker 01

  A CT angiography.

• 2:13:52Speaker 03

  So traditionally, which is really interesting, after men leave the pediatrician, there's no need for them to go to the doctor. For example, women go to OB GYN, you know, they get a gynecological exam, but men, they leave the, why would you have to go to the doctor? They don't really have a reason, which is a mistake. So getting a baseline testosterone, baseline cardiovascular testing is great, like your boys age now, but then not necessarily treating with medication, having a baseline exam by 40, we recommend that you have a baseline heart scan, both hard and soft plaque.

• 2:14:32Chris Williamson?

  What would be the gold standard for that?

• 2:14:33Speaker 03

  A clearly.

• 2:14:34Chris Williamson?

  Clearly.

• 2:14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:14:35Chris Williamson?

  Dude, that fucking clearly thing.

• 2:14:36Speaker 01

  Cubic millimeters.

• 2:14:37Speaker 03

  But now if you do that for muscle, so right now with a DEXA, I think this is where the future is going. Right now, we look at a DEXA. DEXA compartmentalizes bone, body fat percentage, and then extrapolates lean body mass. But we don't look at muscle quality. You and I have talked about this a lot.

• 2:14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:52Speaker 03

  We're not imaging routinely muscle quality. I believe they do it in Japan, whether through ultrasound or MRI, where you see.

• 2:14:59Speaker 01

  You could occasionally see it if you get, if you get a treatment done, like a stem cell injection at the doctor using ultrasound, you can see the quality of the muscle somewhat. Uh, but it's, but it's not done.

• 2:15:07Speaker 03

  But that's a greater, that's a greater driver of say insulin resistance than body fat percentage. It's the fat that's in the muscle. We don't image it.

• 2:15:15Chris Williamson?

  So you'd be looking at a whole body MRI rather than a DEXA?

• 2:15:19Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. I mean.

• 2:15:21Chris Williamson?

  You're gonna sit still for an hour. There's not that many places.

• 2:15:23Speaker 03

  There's gotta be other ways.

• 2:15:24Speaker 02

  There's a new, there's a new one. Did you see the water one? You sit in a, basically in a hot tub.

• 2:15:28Speaker 01

  That mind, uh, who's developing, the AI based companies developing, right? Yeah. I forget what it's called.

• 2:15:33Chris Williamson?

  It's Neco, Neco Health. Is it them?

• 2:15:36Speaker 02

  I don't know quantifiably how well it, yeah, I just saw it.

• 2:15:39Speaker 01

  You literally step into water and it uses frequency based mechanisms to do some type of a digital signal that's similar to a full body MRI.

• 2:15:46Speaker 03

  But that's the future.

• 2:15:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:48Speaker 03

  I'm telling you, that's the future of medicine. You still need a DEXA. You still need to look at bone density, but looking at the quality of this tissue, I think is, you're going to be able to correlate with insulin resistance and disease outcomes.

• 2:16:00Chris Williamson?

  Surprising to me that clearly scans, uh, for the people that C L E E R L Y, um, that they're not more widely used when heart disease is like the number one killer of everybody.

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  They're more expensive. They subject you, depending on the speed of the machine, to a somewhat significant amount of radiation.

• 2:16:19Chris Williamson?

  Once a year, it's fine.

• 2:16:21Speaker 01

  And there's, there's still holes in the process. Like if you got a CT angiography in 2024, the software algorithm has changed like six times since then. So if you're running the same data through a 2026, uh, software that's been updated, like the data set is not necessarily going to be similar. And most of the time.

• 2:16:39Chris Williamson?

  Request your raw data, run it back through.

• 2:16:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. You have to request your raw data and run it back through an old data set. So there's issues, but in general, um, even if it falls into like the concierge based medicine category, I think more people should be considering a scan like that.

• 2:16:53Chris Williamson?

  I don't know. How much is it? Have you got any idea how much out of pocket a clearly would be? Grand, maybe?

• 2:16:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's around that.

• 2:16:59Chris Williamson?

  I mean, that's not cheap, but fuck, you only, you don't need to get it done that much. Get it done 40 years old as a guy.

• 2:17:04Speaker 03

  Get a baseline.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  It's controversial. A lot of people will correlate, I've seen up to 97% accuracy claims a carotid intima media thickness score with a CCTA, meaning using actual ultrasound to look at carotid plaque, plaque deposition. And based on data sets, correlate that to what you'd get from a CT angiography. And that's like a five minute scan on both sides of your neck. Um, it's just, it's, it's, it's difficult to put a lot of, um.

• 2:17:36Speaker 01

  It is difficult to estimate how powerful that that prediction is. But there there are a lot of companies, unfortunately, in the C I M T space who claim that is really close to C T angiography.

• 2:17:48Speaker 03

  But full body M R I, which is very controversial, we recommend them. We recommend them full body M R I. These are early detection screening tools. You'll hear physicians say, why would you screen for something? What are you going to do about it? Well, that's like saying, I don't want to look under the covers. I'm just gonna, you know, hide, put my head in the sand. If, you know, there's an issue, you want to find it early.

• 2:18:08Speaker 01

  It can freak you out, though. Like, there are there are certain things. Like, I have full arthitis, like, literally, like, from my cervical.

• 2:18:14Speaker 03

  Then have someone else read it for you.

• 2:18:15Speaker 01

  And I'm and I'm. But but like, there's a lot of stuff that you you can see, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you.

• 2:18:23Speaker 03

  That is true.

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  Surgery.

• 2:18:24Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 2:18:26Speaker 01

  You know, I need to go get my spine operated on. Like, in my case, I do, I do Stu McGill's Big Three Hankman inversion table every day.

• 2:18:33Chris Williamson?

  Shout out Stu McGill, dude.

• 2:18:34Speaker 01

  Do a lot of plank training, take care of my spine. I always have a giant water bottle behind me on an airplane, which helps a ton. And so I go relatively pain free, but full body M R I shows like, I'm super effed up, like, my entire spine. So it can be scary for a lot of people.

• 2:18:50Speaker 02

  I think a lot of it, though, too, comes down to good clinicians having good conversations. Yeah. Same thing with the cancer screening, like, we can screen for 200 types of cancer at stage zero. We can tell you seven years in advance.

• 2:19:00Speaker 03

  We use those, all that you use the Grail test.

• 2:19:02Speaker 02

  Yes. And then and then it's important to have the nuanced conversation and have the time. So traditional medicine will go, well, you don't need that, like, we we will, you know.

• 2:19:11Speaker 03

  That is a mistake.

• 2:19:12Speaker 02

  It's like, it's, yeah.

• 2:19:13Speaker 03

  And we've seen, so I helped implement this with soldiers, with special operators, because they're exposed to so much stuff.

• 2:19:21Speaker 02

  They have threefold the risk.

• 2:19:22Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. Burn pit, you name it.

• 2:19:24Chris Williamson?

  What's that from? Being exposed to random particulates?

• 2:19:28Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:19:29Speaker 02

  Also, shooting guns, yeah, all that gunpowder is getting absorbed. People don't think about it. You're absorbing all that through your skin.

• 2:19:35Speaker 03

  And we, yes, and we've saved guys' lives because we were early enough in detection.

• 2:19:42Speaker 02

  And then even back, not to go back to microplastics, but like, this is a crazy one. I didn't realize this until we had this meeting with Ken Paxton here, and there's a woman advocate who's banging on the desk about little girls now start putting lip gloss on between ages six and eight. The average American girl's putting lip gloss on between six and eight is flavored lip gloss. Moms and dads are buying it. Yeah, but it's, it is loaded with microplastics. And so they're absorbing plastics. And the reason your lips are pink is you have more blood vessels in your lips. And so it's a higher absorption rate. And so little girls are absorbing crazy levels of microplastics through lip gloss.

• 2:20:17Speaker 01

  Earn your first, avoid lip gloss, and don't eat after loading your meg.

• 2:20:23Chris Williamson?

  So surely someone's going to come along and make a kid-friendly, microplastic-free. Hey, shout out to fucking million-dollar, million-dollar business.

• 2:20:31Speaker 02

  At minimal, they need to change the labeling of what they call all natural and, like, mandate that you disclose a risk profile. And so the Texas is looking at potentially forcing companies. But what we've learned with food is if you can get two or three big states to do it, it's so painful on the big corporations that they'll just change the label everywhere.

• 2:20:51Chris Williamson?

  Because they don't have to split all of the.

• 2:20:53Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 2:20:54Chris Williamson?

  Do you think in future we might see kind of the same as in the U K? I don't know whether it's the same over here. Smoking packets have got, almost 90% of it is taken up with some horrible artery, like, it's a warning label. Can you see the same thing happening maybe around other, around maybe microplastics or other contributing elements to food?

• 2:21:13Speaker 01

  Like a photo of just, like, teeny tiny testicles on a lip gloss bottle.

• 2:21:17Speaker 03

  It does contribute to infertility. But that's one of the reasons why they think that that fertility infertility is increasing.

• 2:21:25Chris Williamson?

  Adds shanos.

• 2:21:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, what was it, 97% or 99% of men have microplastics in our testicles?

• 2:21:30Chris Williamson?

  Oh, did you see where most of that came from, though, that it was in the fucking gloves?

• 2:21:36Chris Williamson?

  Oh, if I get to teach all three of you.

• 2:21:38Speaker 01

  Wait, you you mean the gloves being used in the study?

• 2:21:41Chris Williamson?

  Yes. So the big microplastics, the big, Jared, pull it up.

• 2:21:46Speaker 03

  You've got to tell Larry that.

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 2:21:48Chris Williamson?

  Fucking microplastic study, just search microplastics glove contamination. They were wearing fucking nitrile gloves that, and how how is it that these gloves bend? Why do they bend? Because tiny little bits of plastic are breaking off. So literally, what happened was, we're sorry, the plastic gloves we were wearing got on the plastic detector of the microplastic study we were doing and contaminated the results. So the.

• 2:22:11Speaker 02

  That's wild.

• 2:22:12Chris Williamson?

  There it is. Gloves may be skewing, this is March 29th, University of Michigan scientists may be unknowingly inflating microplastics pollution estimates. And the surprising source could be their own lab gloves. University of Michigan study found common nitrile and latex gloves release tiny particles called sterates, which closely resemble microplastics and can contaminate samples during testing. In some cases, this led to wildly exaggerated results, forcing researchers to track down the unexpected culprit. Don't fucking test me, dude.

• 2:22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. There's a lot, there's a lot of confusion and misperceptions in the microplastic industry, like, like, the sweat thing is one. The chewing gum is full of microplastics issue. The the size of the microplastics in chewing gum actually is too large to be absorbed in the gut in most cases in significant amounts. So chewing gum is less of an issue. And then the, um. There's another one.

• 2:23:02Speaker 02

  What do you think of clothing? Because everyone, there's a whole lot of thing against Lululemon and stuff now, too.

• 2:23:06Speaker 01

  Well, well, there there's another big study a few weeks ago that that actually compared, like, how much microplastic exposure do you actually decrease with certain lifestyle-based modifications? Like, your clothing, the type of packaging that you store your food in, your personal care products, which involves shampoo and conditioner, whatever, which is stored in plastic bottles. The number one contributor, bar none, was oral exposure via plastics in your food. So what you store your food in, or the food that you buy in plastic is the number one contributor. So if you're going to do anything, like.

• 2:23:41Speaker 03

  Which, by the way, is impossible to get rid of, though.

• 2:23:43Speaker 01

  Your garbage bag, like, there's a lot of stuff that you can do.

• 2:23:46Speaker 03

  When you go to the grocery, almost everything is in, everything is in plastic.

• 2:23:50Speaker 01

  And that's the problem. We we live in a society that, right now, is pretty much engineered for you to get your food in plastic, even if it's healthy.

• 2:23:56Speaker 02

  But even a little level of awareness, because you talked about my Fit Foods, I used to use them 10 years ago. And I would, I was so dumb, I would heat up the in the plastic.

• 2:24:05Speaker 03

  So listen, that's so funny.

• 2:24:06Speaker 02

  Like, 10 years ago, I didn't know, I'd heat up my little pre-prepped meal in the plastic in a microwave.

• 2:24:10Chris Williamson?

  Free microplastic.

• 2:24:11Speaker 03

  I'm so glad you brought that up.

• 2:24:13Speaker 02

  Now I put it on a plate.

• 2:24:14Speaker 03

  So I pulled out, I asked them to pull me the data from, was there B P's in the containers or the cover? And there wasn't. They use some very expensive company to not have microplastics.

• 2:24:26Chris Williamson?

  We're working at the moment.

• 2:24:28Speaker 02

  I love their stuff.

• 2:24:29Chris Williamson?

  Inside every can, there's a plastic liner. That's how you don't get stuff contaminated with the metal. However, you can use a biodegradable, natural plant compound liner. So we're looking at how much it's going to cost for us to line this.

• 2:24:44Speaker 03

  Please do that, because I drink two of these a day.

• 2:24:46Chris Williamson?

  I know, I know, they're fucking awesome. Leave it with me.

• 2:24:48Speaker 01

  Until you find out 10 years from now, it's some enamamed-based phytoestrogen.

• 2:24:52Chris Williamson?

  It's killing you.

• 2:24:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 2:24:54Chris Williamson?

  Slowly taking over your brain.

• 2:24:56Speaker 01

  Castrating everyone with new tonic, a bunch of smart people who can't have kids.

• 2:24:58Chris Williamson?

  God damn it. Yeah, I, um, I think the this sort of current future that we've got moving toward with all of the different diagnostics, all of the different interventions, like, it's, what do you think, if you were to make some of your predictions for where you think the attention is going to be in future? I think air quality is going to be huge. That's just about coming online. I think light pollution internally, flicker, L E D, stuff like that. Is there anything else?

• 2:25:26Speaker 02

  If you could. Social media.

• 2:25:27Speaker 03

  Anabolic.

• 2:25:28Speaker 02

  Bigger and bigger.

• 2:25:29Speaker 03

  Anabolic.

• 2:25:30Chris Williamson?

  Okay, what do you mean social media?

• 2:25:31Speaker 02

  The use of social media, like, it's, we have awareness, but I don't think we yet really understand how detrimental it is to children and development. Like, being on technology and the level of technology that kids are exposed to is going to have some sort of major impact that we'll look back and go, wow, was that like the tobacco of our times?

• 2:25:50Chris Williamson?

  The smoking of teenagers in 2026.

• 2:25:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:25:54Speaker 03

  No one thought the idea that anabolic.

• 2:25:56Speaker 01

  What do you mean anabolic?

• 2:25:57Speaker 03

  Like, the anabolic agents that they use in HIV and wasting that were used, like, nangolone. Things beyond testosterone, they're used in HIV and wasting. F D A approved. Anabolic agents, I think it's gonna be.

• 2:26:13Speaker 01

  You, you, you mean that anabolic agents will become increasingly popular, uh, treatment strategy for sarcopenia? Or?

• 2:26:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's studies, there's amazing study on nandrolone and bone mineral density.

• 2:26:25Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:26:25Speaker 02

  Uh, you guys earlier were talking about free testosterone, one of the like little tricks that I think I learned from Larry.

• 2:26:31Speaker 01

  There are, there are car lagenous receptors for growth hormone and it might be able to be used for actual car lage repair as well.

• 2:26:37Speaker 02

  And then there's things like men who have an issue with free versus total, right? So you've got their total testosterone at an optimal level, but their free is suffering. A lot of times that's, um, sex binding globulin hormone.

• 2:26:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:26:49Speaker 02

  And so then if you add in a micro dose of Anabar, it will literally like a Pac-Man gobble up the sex binding.

• 2:26:55Speaker 01

  That's interesting.

• 2:26:56Chris Williamson?

  Ooh, micro dosing Anabar.

• 2:26:58Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 2:26:58Speaker 03

  Their exome spikes, they're free.

• 2:27:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Although I, I, I have like, like the.

• 2:27:02Speaker 02

  But there's a benefit.

• 2:27:03Speaker 01

  I, I, I think the elephant in the room with SHBG though, is that sex hormone binding globulin is also something that increases in a state in which you, uh, in, in which the body senses something like famine, starvation, stress, or any type of scenario in which it would be unwise to bring more humans into the world, right? And so, so people who are on like a strict ketogenic diet have high SHBG. People who are under a lot of cortisol load, high stress, they have high SHBG. So in many cases, like it can be something as simple as just like, dude, like eat more carbs with dinner, sleep a little bit more, lower stress.

• 2:27:43Speaker 03

  Seems to.

• 2:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, it goes up.

• 2:27:44Speaker 02

  What do you think about nandrolone in older male populations as, like, obviously you still keep them on a test sip or an anthate, but then micro dose, nandrolone, low dose nandrolone.

• 2:27:54Speaker 03

  I think that that's gonna be the way of the future and we have to address it. And if we, if we, and so we have a mutual friend, Dr. Larry Lipshultz, the godfather of male fertility.

• 2:28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's the, I've known him for, I don't know, thirty or twenty something years.

• 2:28:08Speaker 03

  Developed.

• 2:28:09Speaker 01

  They have like wings and an arrow.

• 2:28:11Speaker 02

  He's been, he's been using peptides for literally like twenty years. He used to write for GQ magazine, uh, he's got, but he's a heavily, heavily accredited academic, um, at Baylor College of Medicine in Houston, Texas. He's literally wrote the book on urology and he's just such a subject matter expert. He's the one who originally taught me and like helped me. I mean, I was, I was literally 25% body fat, doing CrossFit every day, trying to eat right, couldn't figure things out, felt like I was just run ragged. And he optimized me to where all of a sudden I went from 25% to 7% without testosterone. He, he literally used HCG and Clomiphene and was.

• 2:28:50Speaker 01

  And he's in his eighties. No nandrol?

• 2:28:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no.

• 2:28:53Speaker 03

  He's in his eight, but that's the future. We have to address it.

• 2:28:55Chris Williamson?

  Whatever happened to GHRP2 and GHRP6 and mod GRF? Cause I was fucking about with that 15 years ago. And that, I was, I'm surprised when we're talking about, oh, we're gonna have a human growth hormone, uh, rather than going exogenous, trying to create some endogenous feedback loop.

• 2:29:10Speaker 01

  Right. You mean like, like growth hormone secretagogues?

• 2:29:12Chris Williamson?

  Yes. Uh.

• 2:29:13Speaker 02

  I think better options came out and there was such a hunger surge too. There was a lot of, I don't want to say.

• 2:29:18Chris Williamson?

  Fucking grelin. Did you ever use it? Did you ever try it?

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  I know, and I would sweat.

• 2:29:23Chris Williamson?

  Did you ever try this?

• 2:29:23Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 2:29:24Chris Williamson?

  Um.

• 2:29:25Speaker 01

  It wasn't MK677.

• 2:29:28Speaker 02

  This is an early.

• 2:29:29Chris Williamson?

  Growth homing, growth hormone releasing hexapeptide and bipipptide?

• 2:29:33Speaker 02

  You know, prescribed me, it was Larry Lipshultz and this was again, like 15 years.

• 2:29:37Chris Williamson?

  So we had to do.

• 2:29:38Speaker 01

  Well, I think the other peptides you were talking about, like tesamorelin and ibiporlin, CJC 1295. A lot of those are what people are using now.

• 2:29:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:29:45Chris Williamson?

  Right. Are they mimicking the same sort of?

• 2:29:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, same pathway, but without all of the like, yeah, the, the, with a lower side effect profile and the same.

• 2:29:53Chris Williamson?

  Dude, we used to, we used to shoot it when I was in university. The only way that you could use it was if you hit yourself with it as you were cooking. Because by the time that you would finish the meal, you were like beyond ravenous, cause it's just dumping grelin into.

• 2:30:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:30:08Chris Williamson?

  Like just over and over and over.

• 2:30:09Speaker 02

  It was overwhelming.

• 2:30:10Chris Williamson?

  It was fucking.

• 2:30:11Speaker 02

  It was great if you're trying to put on weight.

• 2:30:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:30:13Speaker 03

  So what happened? Is it, is it still used?

• 2:30:15Speaker 02

  No, it, it's transitioned out. Nobody really uses it. Everything moved to CJC and all these other, uh, secretagogues.

• 2:30:21Speaker 01

  There we go.

• 2:30:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:22Speaker 01

  Down, tear down. Uh, I think, I think, uh, by the way, you, you mentioned, uh, light pollution.

• 2:30:28Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 2:30:29Speaker 01

  And you said air pollution, right?

• 2:30:30Chris Williamson?

  Yes. Yeah. I think air quality and light quality are gonna be.

• 2:30:32Speaker 01

  I think, I think water and electricity are three and four.

• 2:30:35Chris Williamson?

  I think what, what has already been, I've already liked.

• 2:30:37Speaker 01

  Okay. So water's already been done. E- electricity would mean, um, non-native EMF such as wifi routers, uh, 5G, square waveform signals at a higher intensity and things that may cause either actual thermal heating if very close to the body, such as like cell phone, radio frequency, or low level up regulation of channels in cells related to.

• 2:31:02Speaker 02

  Crazy do you go in your house? Are you at the cell dino level? Are you that aggressive with?

• 2:31:06Speaker 01

  My house is pretty aggressive. Like everything is hardwired with metal shielded cables, ethernet. There is no wifi. Every floor is grounded. Um, I mean, at, at my house, we pulled out all the stops in terms of circadian friendly lighting to address light pollution.

• 2:31:19Chris Williamson?

  You don't understand, Ben, Ben showed.

• 2:31:21Speaker 01

  Air filter or scrubber.

• 2:31:23Chris Williamson?

  Ben showed me the guy that came in to help, who'd the bio, bio home dude? What was his name?

• 2:31:27Speaker 01

  Uh, Brian Hoyer.

• 2:31:28Chris Williamson?

  Right. So this guy comes in looking like a dude out of fucking Ghostbusters.

• 2:31:33Speaker 01

  Like meters, like twenty, like more meters than you've ever seen in your life that measure.

• 2:31:38Chris Williamson?

  He was like Dr. Octopus.

• 2:31:39Speaker 01

  Magnetic and electrical.

• 2:31:40Chris Williamson?

  All of this bullshit attached to his arms and he's going around like, you know, spraying for poltergeists and stuff. He's like, I can see in the corner, there's some 5G in the corner. We gotta get rid of the 5G in the corner.

• 2:31:49Speaker 01

  There was a murder here 20 years ago.

• 2:31:51Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:51Speaker 03

  So do you feel a difference?

• 2:31:52Speaker 01

  So, oh, you, you absolutely feel a difference and, and, and a lot of this stuff, of course, has the, has the big fat woo bat signal on it because it is an inconvenient truth that there may be an effect on everything from the, the neurochemical balance in cells based on low level exposure to radiation, uh, or radio frequencies or EMF to the effect that it might have on something like negative ion load in the body, which is why I'm a huge fan of the grounded floors, earthing, grounding, going outside barefoot. But I, I don't think that there is a biological free cost to having a radio frequency device in your pocket

• 2:32:34Speaker 01

  as some bone scan data suggests might be an issue and sperm data, uh, or just sitting next to a wifi router.

• 2:32:40Speaker 02

  Broke down, isn't there a, uh, in the phone itself, in the iPhone itself, somebody had covered this, that it literally tells you, you're supposed to keep it a certain distance.

• 2:32:47Speaker 01

  You are.

• 2:32:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, from your.

• 2:32:49Speaker 01

  You are.

• 2:32:50Chris Williamson?

  Well, that, that sounds like a great, a great fucking disclaimer.

• 2:32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, I think the best metric though, like is, is if you eliminate that stuff. And of course, the single most important place to do it is your bedroom where your nervous system has a chance to arguably repair and recover for like eight hours for a 24 hour cycle. But as many places in the home as you can down regulate exposure to that stuff, I think it's a good idea. If it's right into the category with light, water and air.

• 2:33:12Chris Williamson?

  Are you worried about eight sleep then?

• 2:33:14Speaker 01

  I do not use an eight sleep for those reasons. Um.

• 2:33:18Speaker 03

  I have one.

• 2:33:18Chris Williamson?

  I fucking.

• 2:33:19Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna piss them off, cause I know they're, are they a sponsor?

• 2:33:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:33:22Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, you can say whatever you want.

• 2:33:23Speaker 01

  I, I use a different one that, that still cools my bed, but that tests lower with an EMF meter.

• 2:33:29Chris Williamson?

  Right. But okay, so I think.

• 2:33:30Speaker 03

  EMF meter?

• 2:33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:33:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. The, at least from what I know.

• 2:33:34Speaker 01

  Although I prefer for my Ghostbusters too.

• 2:33:35Chris Williamson?

  Talking to a bunch of, talking to a bunch of friends, they Faraday caged the cooling tower of their eight sleep.

• 2:33:42Speaker 01

  You could do that.

• 2:33:42Chris Williamson?

  Um, and that's where most of the, if you do the actual test.

• 2:33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's, there's, there's much less on the pad than on the controlling device itself. So, yeah.

• 2:33:50Chris Williamson?

  So they just Faraday caged that off?

• 2:33:51Speaker 01

  Totally tinfoil.

• 2:33:52Chris Williamson?

  Can you give, can you give a layman's explanation? Cause a lot of people ionizing, non-ionizing radiation, Bluetooth, I see that you're always with wired headphones and stuff like that.

• 2:34:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:34:01Chris Williamson?

  What's the 30,000 foot view of the most defensible science behind EMF's exposure to electrical frequencies and stuff like that?

• 2:34:12Speaker 01

  Class three Bluetooth signals, which defines most of what we're using on our heads and our ears, et cetera. Very little data showing that there's any deleterious effect at all.

• 2:34:20Chris Williamson?

  So you're talking.

• 2:34:21Speaker 01

  That, that, that is, that is more like a, I'm not sure, so I'm gonna play it safe type of strategy for me to be using wired headphones.

• 2:34:26Chris Williamson?

  Cool. It's your Pascal's wager, your iPod's wager.

• 2:34:29Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's a Pascal. It's a, it's a, it's a technological Pascal wager. Um, for wifi, for 5G, for 4G, the, the biggest response to it from a, from, from an electrochemical balance in the cell standpoint is proximity to the source, right? So the farther you can be from a wifi router, for example, in your home or your office, the better. Like your neighbor's wifi signals, if you've got your home totally tricked out and all your Faraday paint and cages or whatever, is not that big of an issue because they're so far away. But if you're sleeping with your head, whatever, one to two feet on the other side of the wall from the wifi router, that's where there's a bigger issue. Um, the, the, there, there are other things people worry about, electric cars.

• 2:35:14Speaker 01

  Um, Teslas are actually designed to be pretty low EMF. There is a signal that exceeds the safety limit if you are in the backseat right next to the battery. So if you like have a kid in the backseat of a Tesla, most of the rest of it is safe. And I, I have a video online where I went through and tested everything in the Tesla. But if you were gonna shield anything, it'd be the actual backseat. And then, um, the other major sources in a home would be like appliances, you know, uh, dryer, washer, microwave only while it's running, like if you were right next to it when it's running. So basically keeping those appliances as far away as possible from the bedroom or anywhere where you're at for an extended period of time.

• 2:35:57Speaker 01

  Basically don't put your laptop on the washer, which I know you do, and work from that during the day.

• 2:36:02Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 2:36:02Speaker 01

  Um, yeah. Major appliances. And then, um, the phone would just basically also be a proximity to the body and be the bar signal. The lower the bar signal, the higher radio frequency output in order to be searching for a signal. So when the plane is about to land and a hundred people on the plane all turn their cell phones on, when you're maybe still like, I don't know, like, like, let's say at 2,000 feet and you've still got one bar, that's a pretty hazardous place to be because you all of a sudden have like a hundred devices pushing out a ton of radio frequency because they're all searching for a signal at the same time. So that's, that's where you pull on your tinfoil hat is right when the plane's about to land.

• 2:36:42Chris Williamson?

  That's crazy.

• 2:36:43Speaker 01

  Or EMF blocking.

• 2:36:44Speaker 02

  My girlfriend literally got me the tinfoil hat.

• 2:36:47Speaker 01

  I, I have an actual EMF blocking suit. I wear one for international flights. I wear a full suit.

• 2:36:53Speaker 02

  The cap and she's like.

• 2:36:54Speaker 01

  When I, when I used to travel with my sons, I had EMF blocking.

• 2:36:57Speaker 02

  You have one?

• 2:36:58Speaker 01

  My sons for long haul flights.

• 2:37:00Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:00Speaker 01

  Just for the radiation for one whole.

• 2:37:02Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting. I actually got this. This is for you to wear today.

• 2:37:05Speaker 03

  Hey, I love it. Make autism great again.

• 2:37:08Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 2:37:12Speaker 03

  This is what I'm gonna put on every time I land.

• 2:37:17Speaker 01

  Does it block EMF?

• 2:37:18Chris Williamson?

  I hope so. Dude, I'm fucking blown away by the Tesla thing by sitting in the back, the backseat. I'm gonna guess.

• 2:37:25Speaker 01

  Lots of the batteries.

• 2:37:26Chris Williamson?

  But for every problem, there's gonna be a solution. So someone is now going to make a child's seat, presumably which has.

• 2:37:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, so I have called four body shops and so far found none. And the Tesla dealership for warranty reasons won't do it. Who will actually install the shielding material in the backseat? So I have just like a giant piece of fabric from Brian at Shielded Healing that's just like sitting in the back of the Tesla right now. But I haven't actually been able to find anyone who's gonna pull the seat out and install it properly, like between the backseat and the battery.

• 2:37:56Speaker 03

  Did you test it?

• 2:37:57Speaker 01

  So there's a great business model out there for someone out there somewhere.

• 2:38:01Chris Williamson?

  Biologically safe Teslas.

• 2:38:03Speaker 01

  EMF shielding for the backseat.

• 2:38:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. Have you tested it with a blanket? Does it make a meaningful difference?

• 2:38:08Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. When you put the shielding material, the meter drops down. It's just, it's ugly to just have a giant piece of, of shielding material, just like propped in the backseat.

• 2:38:18Speaker 03

  Well, the news is the Tesla's ugly anyway.

• 2:38:20Speaker 01

  Installed like underneath the upholstery or.

• 2:38:22Chris Williamson?

  What I found fascinating, it was so funny. I was watching your documentary. Congratulations on the new documentary, by the way.

• 2:38:26Speaker 01

  Well, thanks.

• 2:38:27Chris Williamson?

  Um, I was watching this last night and I was looking at.

• 2:38:29Speaker 01

  By the way, he was disappointed that they didn't actually show the penis injection scene.

• 2:38:33Chris Williamson?

  I was only there for the penis.

• 2:38:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:38:35Chris Williamson?

  Reliably, I only arrived at events. Me and Zach F are at the back of the cinema, just like, I'm waiting for the penis. Like, show me the fucking penis.

• 2:38:43Chris Williamson?

  One of the things that I noticed was the most Ben Greenfield thing in the world is to design the perfect house to ensure there's no EMFs, everything's local area networked and copper wiring and all the rest of it. Living room, fucking tons of boxes of new shit that he just had sent to his house. Tons and tons of cardboard boxes. And I was like, that's a man who gets lots of packages. I have a, I have a soft spot in my heart for a man that receives a lot of packages.

• 2:39:06Speaker 01

  It's the worst when you try. I literally have an assistant who sits at home and opens packages and sends me photos to an asana project when I'm traveling so that everything can be unboxed and put away when I get home, because one of my greatest sources of stress when I travel is getting home to all of the.

• 2:39:21Speaker 03

  The worst.

• 2:39:21Speaker 01

  The boxes.

• 2:39:22Speaker 03

  Worst.

• 2:39:23Speaker 01

  So I've outsourced.

• 2:39:24Chris Williamson?

  I enjoyed, I enjoyed seeing the boxes. But yeah.

• 2:39:27Speaker 01

  A lot of boxes.

• 2:39:28Chris Williamson?

  Lots of, lots, lots of cool free things. Um, on the air quality thing, I think that is, CO2 is something that I think people are gonna pay a lot of attention to, but that'll be further down the line. Before that, it's gonna be humidity and mold, like just fucking huge.

• 2:39:44Speaker 03

  Wouldn't it be amazing if we had small travel mold detectors that you could put on your backpack? Air quality detectors would be amazing.

• 2:39:53Chris Williamson?

  Well, the problem.

• 2:39:54Speaker 01

  Or like a canary that you could train.

• 2:39:56Chris Williamson?

  For mold?

• 2:39:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, for mold.

• 2:39:58Chris Williamson?

  It's just drop dead.

• 2:39:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:01Chris Williamson?

  One of the problems that you have, and I only found this out from speaking to Mike from Jasper, is that you can't have an air purifier, or he calls it a scrubber, an air scrubber, but different. I know your dad was huge into this stuff, right?

• 2:40:14Speaker 01

  Uh, my dad was water filtration.

• 2:40:16Chris Williamson?

  That was it. Um, you can't have the sensor be in the scrubber because the turnover of air is too high. So you always have to have two separate, because it's basically pulling air through the sensor itself.

• 2:40:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:40:29Chris Williamson?

  So you can't have that. You need to have a sensor that's over one side, that's looking at CO2, that's looking at mold particles, and then you need to have this. But that means that you now have two units, like one thing that's detecting, one thing that's working.

• 2:40:40Speaker 01

  The detector and the scrubber. And then like, like if you could have the perfect setup at home and you weren't renting and you could just put in your own hepa filtration system, you would have a filter, you would have a scrubber, right? So the filter, you see like the MERV rating, which is just like the particular rating, like that's the actual like filter that's catching stuff that you pull out and change, you know, every six months or whatever in your home. Then you have the scrubber, which keeps the actual mold from building up in the ducts themselves. And a lot of times that uses, that's using like UV or ozone or something like that. And then a recirculator that's pulling in fresh air from the outdoors. So you're not just filtering stale

• 2:41:17Chris Williamson?

  And also so you're getting CO2 fixed as well.

• 2:41:19Speaker 01

  You're scrubbing, you're recirculating, and you're filtering all three. Like, that's the best setup.

• 2:41:23Speaker 03

  So is that, so it's three different units?

• 2:41:25Speaker 01

  It's basically three different technologies being used for something like central hepa filtration.

• 2:41:31Chris Williamson?

  What should happen, and I think this is where the guys from Jasper, Mike's gonna end up doing it, is all of this can be fixed if you just put it into AC. Like, if you just go after the AC unit, you don't need to do any of the additional standalone unit thing. The reason that Jasper exists at the moment is that there isn't enough cleaning going on through the AC. And if you're in an apartment block, or if you've got a house, trying to retrofit that, you're gonna have to bodge it together like some Ben Greenfield Tesla car. Like, it's not, it's, it's too much to do. So you're having to scrub inside of a room because the air that's coming in from the AC, even with a dehumidifier at the best that you can get at the moment, is tough. I mean, what did you do for your AC? Did you have to bodge it together? Or did you find something that was ready made?

• 2:42:13Speaker 01

  Uh, we went with a local company called Laser, and they, they do scrubber, they do, uh, filter, and they do recirculation.

• 2:42:19Chris Williamson?

  Are they able to do it at the particular level that's needed to get rid of mold, though?

• 2:42:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, they're, they're using a MERV filter that will basically catch anything that's like PM 2.5, which is, I think it's PM 2.5 to PM 10 are the main sizes that you get concerned about. But I still, because of wildfire season and also in the kitchen, where the rating for the height of the, the hood over the stove for the actual filtration system above the stove when you're cooking is too high to actually catch everything that gets released when you're cooking. So even if you have a filter in the kitchen, you're getting a massive amount of PM 2.5 every time you cook. So I have a standalone HEPA air filter in the kitchen, and then a bunch in other rooms that I pull out when it's like wildfire season or there's a bunch of smoke.

• 2:43:05Speaker 01

  There are, uh, eight Jasper filters back in our Airbnb right now here in Austin, running in every room.

• 2:43:12Speaker 03

  So we have six in our house.

• 2:43:13Speaker 01

  To me, it's worth it to filter than to, as much as I travel, get exposed in an Airbnb or hotel room and be dealing with mold for the next two years. Like, it's way better to just nip it in the

• 2:43:26Speaker 03

  But see, what you said is important is when you're exposed, you're exposed over a period of time. It takes a long time to get rid of it.

• 2:43:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:32Speaker 03

  So you might as well.

• 2:43:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:43:33Chris Williamson?

  You, you.

• 2:43:34Speaker 01

  And it's expensive.

• 2:43:35Chris Williamson?

  You work a lot with mold. Obviously, it's been a huge part of my life over the last couple of years. How, how brief of an exposure do you need in order to cause an effect? Do you like, is one night, six months of detox? Is there any equation that's been come up with for this?

• 2:43:52Speaker 03

  I think, well, part of it, so yes, I do and treat mold and environmental toxins in our medical practice. And I will tell you, I think it comes down in part to genetics. Some people are affected, some people are not. Obviously, there's no, it's not like, okay, so you have low testosterone for six months, here's gonna be your subsequent effects. But, uh, an exposure of even a week can.

• 2:44:17Speaker 01

  A week's better, though. You at least just delayed Chris's fears about his one night stand with the moldy woman. So it would have been a week.

• 2:44:24Speaker 03

  Have you gotten sick with mold? You must have.

• 2:44:26Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I've, I've gotten pretty lucky. I haven't. Yeah.

• 2:44:30Chris Williamson?

  Have you done your genomic testing to work out whether you've got the different polymorphisms that your detox pathways for Lyme and for mold and stuff?

• 2:44:36Speaker 01

  I have a little bit of impaired glutathione detoxification pathways. And use some glutathione. I've never had significant mold exposure, but.

• 2:44:44Chris Williamson?

  Interesting.

• 2:44:44Speaker 01

  Knock on wood.

• 2:44:45Chris Williamson?

  I mean, I lived in, me and another guy lived in the same house, me and Zach, best friend. And one of us, him, fine, me, same fucking house, dude. Like, and he was ripping vapes, going to bed at three in the morning, playing gigs. Here's me, like, getting up, sunlight in the eyes, fucking grounding, listening to Ben and Cubeman and you. And, uh, it wrecked me. So it really is, if you just have rolled the genetic dice, and then you kind of hit the equivalent of the jack, the inverse jackpot, living in an environment, like, it's, it's a real.

• 2:45:16Speaker 01

  Roommate with the fricking like Viking Nephilim genes.

• 2:45:19Chris Williamson?

  He's just, he's just completely untouched by it. But yeah, I think the mold thing is gonna be, it already is sort of picking up speed. But, um, Ariana Thacker from the Mold Co., she rules, Shoemaker Protocol, all of that stuff, I think is gonna be massive. Like, teaching people about binders and sauna and exposure and TGF beta.

• 2:45:38Speaker 01

  Mold Co. is kind of like systematized everything to where they have like the testing, the solutions, everything on.

• 2:45:42Chris Williamson?

  It's a one stop shop.

• 2:45:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:45:44Chris Williamson?

  Which is really cool.

• 2:45:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Really cool slash possibly the fox guarding the hen house, but I still think it's a good idea.

• 2:45:50Chris Williamson?

  How so?

• 2:45:50Speaker 01

  Well, if they're testing and then supplying the solutions based on the test results.

• 2:45:54Chris Williamson?

  You were incentivized to get the test.

• 2:45:56Speaker 01

  Potential, but I, but I've gone through the website and seen what they're doing. And I think that they're doing a good service.

• 2:46:01Chris Williamson?

  I mean, you need to be a real scumbag to be falsifying people's tests so you can then.

• 2:46:05Speaker 01

  I would, I would hope not. I would.

• 2:46:07Chris Williamson?

  Therapeutics. No. I, I, so yeah, what's cool is, uh, all of the problems that we think are sort of in the future, there's already solutions or proto-solutions that already exist. So for people that have got systemic issues, hormones, health, optimizing, like you guys and similar to you guys exist, for the light problems, we've got people thinking about LEDs. For mold, we've got the Mold Co. For blood testing and mass, we've got function for, you know, air quality, we've got jet, you know, there's already Aqua True for reverse osmosis, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, like. There's already the beginnings of solutions. It's just a case of kind of telling people about it. That makes me feel more confident because I guess like 15 years ago,

• 2:46:50Chris Williamson?

  all of these problems still existed, but there wasn't even the nascent version of some company that could maybe fix it.

• 2:46:56Speaker 01

  Best resource I ever found, and I really wanted to interview the author on my podcast. And hopefully she doesn't hear this horrible interview because she was

• 2:47:05Speaker 01

  a little boring and didn't do a great job explaining, but the book was fantastic. It was called Prescription for a Healthy Home. And it's like everything, it's carpets, appliance, it's roofing, it's painting, like ever. Like I gave it to the people building my home. Like I bought it for the architect and the building team because I wanted them to read it. It was so thorough as far as everything that it went into for building materials from the ground up or outfitting like an existing condo or apartment or somewhere that you're not building from scratch. Excellent guide. And it's like, I think it was published two years ago, maybe. So pretty relevant.

• 2:47:39Chris Williamson?

  Unreal. Final thing that I love, which I think will pick up speed will be proper genetic testing. So Intellx DNA is who you guys use that Lisa's put me through. Little bit expensive. You need a healthcare practitioner, provider, whatever to get in between you. I know that Function are about to release their own version at some point later this year, which will democratize that. I'm sure you guys have all got your own versions of this too. But it's the only test you only ever need to do once.

• 2:48:05Speaker 03

  That's true. Yeah.

• 2:48:06Chris Williamson?

  It's so.

• 2:48:07Speaker 01

  Until CRISPR gene editing really takes off.

• 2:48:09Chris Williamson?

  Well, you got the follow standing thing when we were in Rowa Town together.

• 2:48:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:48:13Chris Williamson?

  How did that work?

• 2:48:14Speaker 01

  I gained muscle at a more rapid rate than I would have expected without changing protein calorie intake or my weight training protocol. Around 10 pounds in three months. It's not permanent. You would need to repeat it, I think every one to one and a half years. And unfortunately, at the time, I was under the impression it was reversible in case shit hit the fan and something went wrong. It's not actually reversible.

• 2:48:42Speaker 03

  I thought it was reversible.

• 2:48:43Chris Williamson?

  I thought you just took a tablet.

• 2:48:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:48:45Speaker 01

  No, that's the issue is that it is not. And the company is now readily admitting that it's not. And doctors were supposed to reach out to their patients and tell them that oops, it's not. So that's the only issue now is it's just like, well, if you're going to get your genes edited, it'd be nice to know that if something goes wrong, you could reverse it. Yeah.

• 2:49:04Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Well, I mean, we did go to a small island off the coast of Honduras, which is specifically a network state that doesn't have any oversight of basically any nation. So that you could get this experimental gene therapy. And now you're like, wow, they didn't tell you about the small print.

• 2:49:24Speaker 02

  But the understanding that I was taught from that technology is it's not editing a gene, it's turning on a pre-existing.

• 2:49:31Speaker 01

  You are correct. It's not a CRISPR gene editing.

• 2:49:33Speaker 02

  And then it'll turn back off over time.

• 2:49:35Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's up basically like up regulating or down regulating a gene. So, uh, yeah, like joking aside, the, the only reason that you'd have to do a genetic test twice in a lifetime is if you are actually using CRISPR gene editing.

• 2:49:48Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Pretty sick. Guys, you all rule. I appreciate you. Why should people go to check out everything? And we've told them so many interesting.

• 2:49:54Speaker 02

  My company's ways too well.com, the number two.

• 2:49:57Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:59Speaker 03

  Go to my website, dr gabriel lion.com, all of the channels, the podcast. These two are getting PhDs to come on.

• 2:50:06Speaker 01

  Let's do it. Let's go.

• 2:50:08Speaker 03

  And yeah, strong medical with lifespan MD. If you want to be my patient, I don't do rectal exams, so.

• 2:50:17Speaker 01

  There's not a lot of Ben Greenfield's out there, such Google is good.

• 2:50:20Chris Williamson?

  Thank you. I appreciate you all, you all rule. Thank you for keeping everyone alive. Goodbye, my beauties. Yes, that fucking.

• 2:50:27Speaker 01

  That was fun.

• 2:50:28Speaker 04

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