The Hidden Psychology Of Highly Sensitive People - Dr Sasha Hamdani - #1147

Dr Sasha Hamdani is a psychiatrist, ADHD specialist and author. Why are some people more emotionally sensitive than others? If you feel things more deeply, you’re not alone, and emotional sensitivity can be both a gift and a challenge. So, how can highly sensitive people manage intense emotions, and how can those close to them better understand and support them? Expect to learn what being a highly-sensitive person feels like, what Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria is and why social rejection hurts so much, why some people are more emotionally sensitive than others, why some people need constant reassurance, if you can build self-esteem without external validation, the benefits of being emotionally fragile, if emotional dysregulation is central to ADHD and much more… Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get a Free Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular flavours with your first purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get a free bottle of D3K2, an AG1 Welcome Kit, and more when you first subscribe at https://ag1.info/modernwisdom Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (00:00) Inside the Mind of an Emotionally Sensitive Person (02:55) Is Rejection at the Heart of Emotional Sensitivity? (05:40) Why Social Rejection Hurts So Much (07:07) What Actually Causes Emotional Sensitivity? (13:46) Do Some People Feel Emotions More Intensely? (16:54) How Hormones Shape Emotional Sensitivity (20:10) Why Have Humans Evolved to Be So Sensitive? (21:24) Are Men Just as Emotionally Sensitive? (31:59) The Hidden Strengths of Emotional Sensitivity (35:49) Do Sensitive People Need More Validation? (38:21) How Rejection Dysphoria Affects Relationships (43:43) Why the Right Environment Changes Everything (49:40) Why Uncertainty Feels Unbearable (53:00) Are Emotionally Avoidant Men Secretly Sensitive? (54:04) When Should You Work on Emotional Fragility? (57:35) The Most Powerful Tools for Emotional Regulation (01:02:34) What It’s Really Like Being a Sensitive Parent (01:04:41) The Vulnerability Behind Mindfulness (01:07:23) Is Social Media Harming Sensitive Teenagers? (01:09:51) Are We Born Sensitive? (01:13:24) How Rejection Dysphoria Affects Your Career (01:22:56) The Most Important Lesson for Sensitive People (01:23:35) Where to Find Dr Hamdani Extra Stuff: See me live in the UK & Ireland this October: ⁠https://chriswilliamson.live Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  Hello friends, I'm bringing a brand new live show across the UK and Ireland this October. It's stories, psychology, audience Q and As, and whatever happens when thousands of overthinkers voluntarily leave the house and end up in the same room together. I'd love to see you there. The last two are completely sold out, so make sure that you snag tickets now using the link in the description or heading to chriswilliamson.live. Dublin's already sold out, loads of venues are limited, tickets are very limited, so get yours now. chriswilliamson.live. Why did you get interested in researching emotionally sensitive people?

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Because I am an emotionally sensitive person. And I think also just from my body of work, seeing patients, you just start to see patterns of people becoming more or falling into the pattern of being emotionally sensitive.

• 0:47Chris Williamson?

  And what does that look like? What's the experience of life like for someone who's an emotionally sensitive person?

• 0:52Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's different for each person, but I think one of the bigger overarching things is that these are the people who feel things quickly, deeply, and for a long time.

• 1:03Chris Williamson?

  Okay, what would be the sort of way that they spend their days? Like they're going about their day, what will be some of the habits, some of the mental experiences that they go through?

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I think a lot of times, people with emotional sensitivity, because they're taking in so much emotional data, they are over analyzing every interaction and reading it for, am I doing something weird? Is this other person doing something weird? Are you mad at me? They're just interpreting and reevaluating every single interaction, which takes up a lot of brain power throughout the day. The other thing that they do is you see a tremendous amount of time spent where you're already predicting that that could be an issue. So they are changing their behavior, they're masking behavior, they're overcompensating for certain things. So there's, there is work that's being done within interactions on a day to day basis, and there's stuff that they're

• 1:56Speaker 01

  also anticipating these possible interactions.

• 1:59Chris Williamson?

  Oh, that's interesting. So even silence and in preparation, people are interpreting that with a particular lens as well?

• 2:09Chris Williamson?

  Right, that's interesting. What about criticism? What's the relationship like with criticism?

• 2:13Speaker 01

  I don't think anybody in the universe likes criticism, but I think when you look at rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is a neurological phenomenon we're talking about,

• 2:23Speaker 01

  it is this robust emotional, sometimes physical response to rejection or criticism. So it's not just like, okay, that happened and that really hurt my feelings and that sucks. It's, I feel like the air has been pushed out of my lungs. I don't know if I can recover from this. And it becomes this thing that instead of being like, okay, well, I'm chewing on this and it's annoying, it becomes this thing that consumes them. And can it be as significant as to look like a major depressive episode?

• 2:55Chris Williamson?

  It feels like a fear of disappointing other people is kind of quite central to this?

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, it can be.

• 3:02Chris Williamson?

  Right, why?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  I think it stems from this fear of rejection or criticism. So if you're going to disappoint someone, you, you don't want that, the other person to be upset with you, you don't want them to reject you, you don't want them to think badly of you, you don't want them to criticize you. And so you're dealing with this very complicated phenomenon that's coming at you, all of these emotions happening at once, and you're trying to process them in real time.

• 3:27Chris Williamson?

  Is rejection sensitive dysphoria the same thing as being a highly sensitive person? Is there something like sufficient, necessary but not sufficient in here?

• 3:35Speaker 01

  Well, okay, so here's my deal. So highly sensitive person, I mean, I think that was a, it's not a clinical term, but that, that came about years and years ago. And it's talking about highly sensitive to everything. So not just emotions, but sounds, lights, everything you're sensitive to.

• 3:54Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  When I talk about rejection sensitive dysphoria, I'm putting that on a spectrum of emotional sensitivity. So in terms of, there are some people that, you know, emotions and emotional data doesn't impact them that tremendously on a day to day basis, and they kind of roll along their day. And maybe it could be a little bit off median where they're like, you probably could afford being a little bit more emotional. There's people who, you know, this, they have healthy ups and downs. And then there are other people who emotional data can just sink them with things, which might be completely out of proportion of what the stimulus is happening.

• 4:34Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay. So when you've got highly sensitive people, they might be highly sensitive to emotions, but also like sound, busyness, chaos, et cetera. RSD, rejection sensitive dysphoria?

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:48Chris Williamson?

  Is specifically an emotional angle that we're looking at here. Why the word rejection sensitive? Why not emotionally sensitive dysphoria?

• 4:57Speaker 01

  That's a good question. I think, you know, this, this term was coined by Dr. William Dodson, who was brilliant, had brought this up. And I think when he was looking at that kind of longitudinal data with patients, a lot of them were responding to that rejection and that criticism that would trigger this kind of profound emotional response. So I think those are two really big cases that it could happen. But, you know, I think we need to start expanding and talking about emotional sensitivity just in general, because then you can start talking about emotional dysregulation. And that really, I think, becomes one of the things that we have been missing talking about with ADHD and anxiety and things like that for years and years and years.

• 5:41Chris Williamson?

  Okay, why does social rejection hurt so much?

• 5:46Speaker 01

  How much time do you have? It's one of those things that, you know, you look at, there are many different reasons that this is so painful. Neurobiologically, there is inherently a dopamine imbalance. So what's happening is that your brain already is, you know, struggling to emotionally regulate. So something happens, and instead of being like, okay, we can work with this, it's just that you're shot down and you're right now, then you get suspended in this low mood, highly anxious mood, where you're spinning and chewing on this for hours and hours. Another reason this happens is that people who are highly emotionally sensitive, a lot of times, there are two areas of the brain

• 6:29Speaker 01

  that are really impacted by this. The first one is the amygdala, which is your threat receptor. So that, in this, in these cases, is very highly attuned to picking up emotional data. So your brain is picking up this seemingly negative data, and then the frontal lobe, which is in charge of judgment and processing and decision making, which should be able to be like, this isn't that big of a deal, that isn't as active. So now you have this highly active threat receptor and this poorly responsive frontal lobe, and you're just, you're, that emotional train is running away.

• 7:06Chris Williamson?

  Right. So, okay, explain to me the underlying neuroscience of why emotional sensitivity exists? Like, what is happening inside of the brain of somebody that is an emotionally sensitive person?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  So I think it depends on a lot of things. The first one is what I talked about, like that highly responsive amygdala and that poorly responsive frontal lobe. You have, you know, you feel things before you actually think about them logically. The second thing is dopamine dysregulation. Dopamine is that thing that helps you, it's very multifaceted. It helps with many different things. But when you feel things, you're less able to regulate because of that.

• 7:48Chris Williamson?

  What's happening with the dopamine? Are these people with high dopamine baseline, with low dopamine baseline, with a low catecholamine clearance? Like, what's going on?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  So I want to say low, but it's not, it's not as simple as that. It's that there's not enough dopamine at the right place at the right time. So it's dysregulation.

• 8:03Chris Williamson?

  What would that do if they had that dopamine? It would help them to be able to weather the ups and downs?

• 8:08Speaker 01

  Regulate better.

• 8:09Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay. So you know the comt variant? Okay, so I'm comt double A, right? So I've got two copies of it. And a bunch of others, like that come along, polymorphisms that come along with that similarly. That means that for me, if stuff's chaotic, it's really hard for me to focus. But if things are a little bit more predictable and less ambiguous, it's hard to get me to stop. So for me, environment design is really important.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:32Chris Williamson?

  But it also means I had this really great interaction with ChatGPT where I sent my genetic data to it and had a conversation with it. And said, hey, imagine you know nothing about me, tell me what sort of a person you think I would be, just based on my genetic data. And it came back with all of these really interesting insights. And one of the things that it said was, you would make a great detective and a horrible SWAT operator, that someone who is in a relatively controlled environment, focused on one quite complex task, great. Someone who's got these big peaks and troughs of intensity, and then has to come back down, then has to do it again, that is worse for me, because my ability to sort of clear off a lot of the adrenaline and the catecholamine. So that is what I was

• 9:14Chris Williamson?

  thinking about when it comes to the dopamine side of things, that some people are able to be airplanes, as Stantap can call them, they can sort of go up and down quite quickly, but they have less depth. And some people are submarines, which is that they have way more depth, but it takes some time to come back up. So that was what was interesting about the dopamine thing. But keep going. So you've got

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:32Chris Williamson?

  The dopamine side.

• 9:33Speaker 01

  The dopamine side, you have the norepinephrine side, which is like fueling that very physical response. So it's not, a lot of times with this rejection sensitivity, it's not just, I feel bad that something bad happened. It's, I can't breathe, I feel like my ribs hurt, I'm feeling chest pain. I'm feeling, like, a lot of times, people think that they're having an anxiety attack, or they think they're having a heart attack. And it's truly just that rejection sensitivity. And it's because of that surge of norepinephrine that's spilling those alarm chemicals, telling your body that something bad is happening. So your brain at this point, it's not just that your brain is, you're psyching yourself up into like, you know, someone didn't text me back and, you know, they must be, you know, it's,

• 10:17Speaker 01

  they're mad at me or something like that. Your body is telling you that there is a problem. You are panicked, your heart rate is up, you are sweating, you're tremulous. So you think there's something wrong because your body's responding that way. So we've talked about.

• 10:33Chris Williamson?

  Dopamine, norepinephrine. You said the amygdala.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:37Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. But imagine presumably for people, the reason that we have a PFC is in an attempt to be able to control the amygdala. So it has to be the relationship between the two.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  It's a linkage between the two. There's there not only are we dealing with a hyperactive amygdala, an underactive prefrontal cortex, but the linkage between them is also frayed.

• 10:57Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so in this sort of a situation, I guess this would, I'm thinking about the SWAT operator. You know what else comes to mind? Dana White, when he was in the room at the correspondence dinner, where that guy tried to shoot the president and everybody else is sort of ducked down. I don't know whether you've seen this video. Can you try and get the video up of Dana? You say Dana White correspondence dinner reaction? And it's him as an active shooter comes in and you hear the gunshots go off, right? Cause the guy that was the shooter shot a couple of secret service people and then he gets taken down. Like, what's even happening with that guy? Like, do we even know? I'm now I'm interested in whether or not it's another. You know what's crazy? There's multiple presidential assassins, like just in the legal system at the moment.

• 11:42Chris Williamson?

  Has there ever been multiple fucking presidential assassins in the legal system at the same time? Cause the guy in Utah is currently being, uh, like he's, he's, he's in trial at the moment. And then the dude that did the other one, he's also been taken, he's like getting the queue. Yeah, this one, this, this, this.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Inside, they started up.

• 12:05Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, it just started getting noisy. Tables getting flipped over, guys running in with guns. And they were screaming, get down. I didn't get down. It was fucking awesome. I literally took every minute of it in.

• 12:18Chris Williamson?

  The video, so see if you can find the actual video, dude. It's again, that's what's happened. This assassin's gone in. Dana White's actual reaction when he sat down in the room is.

• 12:30Chris Williamson?

  Everybody else is under the table and he just can't, like, all he wants is, so my point being that amygdala prefrontal cortex thing.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:38Chris Williamson?

  Obviously the triggering of his fear center hasn't kicked in and he's able to go, isn't this like full access to his ability to think, isn't this interesting? I think this is a memory that would be worth me encoding for a while. I'm having a good time. You know what I mean? But I would, I would.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Maybe an underactive amygdala for that guy.

• 12:57Chris Williamson?

  That's what I would say too. Yeah, this is it. Look at this. Look at his face.

• 13:06Chris Williamson?

  Absolute kid in a candy store, like just having the best time.

• 13:15Chris Williamson?

  Actively smiling, like forget the active shooter, active smiler.

• 13:21Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that's, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know what I mean? Like, isn't that an interesting response from somebody else's?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  I get what you mean. Um, I think that there is like, again, when you look at like just neurophysiology and the brain is so fascinating for so many different reasons, but like when you actually understand what areas of the brain do what and the connections between them, you can see it in human behaviors and patterns. It's wild.

• 13:46Chris Williamson?

  What about the limbic system?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, limbic system. So limbic system is important because that's really talking about like that emotional circuitry in general. And so when you are dealing with big emotional data that may or may not be justified, right? It may, it might just be that you perceived this rejection or criticism or emotional data coming in. Your limbic system just goes wild. Areas are lighting up. You're communicating as if like this big emotional response is happening and you're trying to navigate that in real time.

• 14:18Chris Williamson?

  Is it right to say that some people feel emotions more than others?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:22Chris Williamson?

  Is that a fair assessment?

• 14:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:24Chris Williamson?

  Okay. What do we mean when we say that?

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if you think about like emotions in general, like when you're talking about feeling emotions, you're talking about perceiving them. That's the first step that happens. You're talking about then experiencing them in the moment. And then you're talking about how long you spend on that emotion afterwards, right? So there are people that, you know, you can walk into a room, you already know something weird is happening. You can feel like an emotional, and I, I give the example of like someone walking into a room with like a complicated social interactions all over the place and they can just, you know, they say to me like, something feels off or there's, there's something in the air. They say something like that and they're referring to like picking up. So because what they're doing

• 15:09Speaker 01

  is they're scanning the room. Not only are they listening to words that are coming out at them during immediate conversation, but they're looking at body position. They're looking at tone. They're looking at volume of voice. They're picking up all these different cues, amalgamating them and, and sometimes for the negative.

• 15:27Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. So that it's interesting, the sort of noticing intensity and duration.

• 15:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:32Chris Williamson?

  Right. And what we're talking about when it comes to emotional intensity. First off, you have to realize they're happening. Then it has to be how big does the feeling feel inside of you? That is how many different cascades occur inside of your brain and body to make you feel it. And then how long is the falloff after that happens?

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:49Chris Williamson?

  What's interesting, I suppose, some people walk into a room, they're hypervigilant, they're paying attention. They realize that this person's turned away a little bit or they're blinking a bit more, or they don't even know what's happening, but there is just a sense.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Feeling it.

• 16:00Chris Williamson?

  That person doesn't feel too good. I suppose a lot of the time, kind of like a smoke detector principle, those people are going to perceive problems where there are none. And that's when it becomes very maladaptive, right? It's already kind of maladaptive to just perceive stuff as it is with a level of resolution that's more than everyone else, because the world that most people are in, in the center of the bell curve, and then the world that you're in, maybe out toward the tail end, and the world that Dana White's in, out on the other tail end, um, are kind of different, different existences, right? And Dana will miss out on some stuff that I'm sure that he could, it would be great for him to pay a bit more attention to, but then the person who has realized that the auntie over the far side is actually in a mood with the sister or whatever, um, but they're not, they've got a different type of error.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:46Chris Williamson?

  Dana's ignored something and they've pattern matched something that wasn't actually there. So there's, I suppose, some strengths and weaknesses. All right. I guess.

• 16:54Chris Williamson?

  What? When you're thinking about like RSD, what other traits does it tend to be bundled in with? Are there other things that come, tend to come along for the ride?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  So with, actually, I'm going to go back because we forgot a huge thing that, that happens in the brain as well, and that's hormones.

• 17:15Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  We could talk about that later if you want to.

• 17:18Chris Williamson?

  Tell me about hormones now.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Okay. So I, I wanted to talk about hormones because I think when you look at the brain in general, I mean, there is not much else you can look at that would be equivalent to like this huge, that has the capacity to kind of change your entire system just globally from top to bottom. And hormones are something so interesting to look at, especially for females, because like for women, you're changing every month. You're changing when you're pregnant, you're changing when you're perimenopausal, you're changing when you have a kid. It's just like, you can have eight different versions of yourself. And with men, I mean, you deal with the hormonal stuff with like as their testosterone drops or, and other things that are happening in real time.

• 18:01Speaker 01

  So hormones directly impact, like for example with estrogen, um, as your estrogen drops, your dopamine drops as well. And so then you're less able to regulate your emotions and things like that. And that's a huge, huge thing to bring up. It's an important factor in emotional sensitivity and rejection sensitivity, because if for two weeks out of the month, your estrogen level is intrinsically lower, your dopamine level is lower and it's harder for you to regulate, you're going to be more rejection sensitive, emotionally sensitive during those times.

• 18:34Chris Williamson?

  What relationship does testosterone have to emotional sensitivity?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So testosterone is actually, it can be protective in that front to a degree. And it helps you feel alert and awake and might help you emotionally regulate and balance a little bit better. The problem is, is that sometimes as that testosterone drops, as happens, you know, 50s, 60s with males, sometimes you can, because of that drop in testosterone, you can feel this huge rise in emotional sensitivity and a lot of men aren't equipped to deal with that.

• 19:10Chris Williamson?

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• 19:56Chris Williamson?

  Right now you can get a free sample pack of Elements most popular flavors with your first purchase by going to the link in the description below, heading to drinklmnt.com/ModernWisdom. That's drinklmnt.com/ModernWisdom. Going back to why social rejection hurts so much, right? From an adaptive standpoint, presumably I'm being kicked out of the tribe. There's only 30 people in my pod out of 150 Dunbar tribe that I'm a part of. If I'm on my own, I'm dead. Why would evolution create a brain that can be so devastated by criticism?

• 20:31Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think, so here's the deal. I don't think, like, if you were to ask me,

• 20:39Speaker 01

  it would, like you, me, myself, I know that I'm emotionally sensitive. I wouldn't trade that for the world. Yeah, it's really difficult at times to be highly emotionally sensitive, but I think it makes me a better person. I think it makes me a better physician. I think it makes me a better parent. I think it makes me a better partner. I think being able to be highly attuned to emotional data and incoming information can be, it can be one of the greatest signs of emotional intelligence you have. So I think that that's, I, I wouldn't trade that emotional sensitivity. So yeah, I mean, did evolution make a brain that can be devastated by rejection? I mean, yes, but there's also some positives that come with that.

• 21:24Chris Williamson?

  Okay. You talked about hormones there.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:27Chris Williamson?

  Does RSD look different in men?

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Um, you want a weird answer for that?

• 21:33Chris Williamson?

  Sure.

• 21:34Speaker 01

  Okay. I, this is my soapbox for this. I think that looking at just, you know, being a psychiatrist and seeing mental health, just in general, and seeing the progression of mental health, especially as we've talked about it a little bit more, you start to notice patterns. And as you look at male mental health, I think that we have done a huge disservice to men in terms of we don't educate men and help cultivate with men a lot of information about emotional sensitivity. And as a result, for a lot of men, they know how to target a couple of emotions and one of them being anger.

• 22:12Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  So I think for a lot of men, you see men that have, you know, they've been told, you know, just man up, this is not that big of a deal, don't cry about it, don't like, they have been forced to suppress emotions, but the only socially acceptable emotion they're allowed to express is anger. I would say that some of that is probably misdirected or confusing signals of maybe emotional sensitivity.

• 22:35Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. What happens when emotionally sensitive boys are told to man up?

• 22:40Speaker 01

  I mean, that you get really angry dudes. And, and I mean, it's just such a, like, I think as a parent who has a son, it's weird because, and maybe it's, this is like the mom, son thing, that I'm so protective over him. But, you know, you see in other settings and you, you start to really zoom in and you look at how other people are, are bringing up their, their six year olds, their six year old boys, and even from a young age in the kindergarten class, you know, the way that the girls are treated in the class versus the boys are treated in the class, and not by the teacher, but like the parents, you look at it in birthday parties,

• 23:21Speaker 01

  you know, a girl will fall down, they're scooped up, they're, they're coddled, they're told, you know, everything's okay, a boy will fall down and it's like, oh, that's not that big of a deal, you know, let's, let's move on from this. And it's, it just, it doesn't seem like, it's like from Genesis, there's not like a huge spot where they can start to explore and really navigate emotional sensitivity well.

• 23:45Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think emotionally sensitive women seem to have a bit more latitude and forgiveness to explore that kind of sensitivity than men do, especially as they get into adulthood. Like, I, you know, I think you're right, that it's weird, anger is such an antisocial emotion.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:03Chris Williamson?

  Right, it's dangerous, it can be destructive, it's often not wanted by the people that are experiencing it, and they don't want the impact of it to happen.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:09Chris Williamson?

  But anger's for many men, more socially acceptable than sadness.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:16Chris Williamson?

  And when you think about how antisocial anger is, is an emotion, it really goes to show sort of how unaccepted sadness can be. But yeah, you know, we talk a lot online about the importance of getting men to open up. I had a conversation, two conversations this week, talking about male suicide. And in both of them, there is this, I just wish that this guy had reached out, I wish that he'd talked, but in over 90% of cases where a man takes his own life in the UK, he's already gone to some form of mental health counselling. So it's not just the talking about it thing, it's actually allowing, like giving room for men to be able to feel their feelings. And I think that, to be honest, like a lot of the blame, a, a lot of the work, not blame,

• 24:59Chris Williamson?

  a lot of the work here can be laid at other men's feet, because everyone says they want their friend to open up, if you're having a bad time, that I really need you to, to talk to me. And this is all easy to say after the fact, especially if something really dangerous or devastating's happened. But how many guys are supportive of another man on the internet that's opening up about how much he's struggling, like not, not to the overton, emotional overton window of acceptability, which is, you know, things are hard, but I'm getting back in the gym and I'm going to put some muscle on or whatever. Like really broken down, and I don't know what to do, I'm alone, I'm broken, I'm, I'm lost, I'm devastated. A guy that's crying is aversive to a lot of men.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:41Chris Williamson?

  Uh, and women too, but I'm like, you don't get to say, male suicide's a big problem, we need to do more of, more for this, society needs to care more, and then take the piss out of a guy who is opening up about his emotions online.

• 25:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:55Chris Williamson?

  I had this idea of man points, which is guys need to accumulate sufficient kind of surplus masculinity in areas like muscularity or strength or success or money or notoriety or women or whatever. And if they've got this bank account reserve of masculinity, they can kind of withdraw from that and then talk about emotions. It's like this special video game unlock that only happens once you've reached a particular level of being a man. Basically, people have a big ick, most of society has a big ick with men talking about deep emotions, especially difficult emotions, but they have far fewer if it comes from a place of prestige than one of poverty.

• 26:37Chris Williamson?

  A, a guy who's already down on his luck and might not have much going for him, talking about how much things are hurting, doesn't get the same kind of sympathy that Chris Bumstead, six time Olympia world champion, one of the most muscular guys on the planet, that he gets. He can cry and talk about how he broke down in his girlfriend's arms six weeks before he's about to win the world championship, because he's got all of these trappings and trimmings of masculinity that make it seem like it's not coming from a place of weakness, it's coming from a place of strength. But again, Chris doesn't need the same kind of support, because he's already got a community around him of a supportive wife and all of these successes that are continuing to move him down the track. The people that really need it are the guys that kind of don't have anything going for

• 27:22Chris Williamson?

  them, and they're presumably going to be the biggest risk as well.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:24Chris Williamson?

  But yeah, that's my, that's my soapbox as well, to just, I really wish that there was more latitude, like speaking as a guy that feels feelings, I just, I did a, a full week retreat, working exclusively on emotions, 12 hours a day for seven days in Northern California last year. Two weeks ago, I just did a Jhana meditation retreat, which is exclusively working on conductivity of emotions, a silent meditation retreat for seven days, like sitting on the cushion for, I don't know, six or eight hours a day. So that was, like, both of those things for me, and me trying to get below the neck, me trying to move away from a lot of the

• 28:03Chris Williamson?

  judge, not even judgment, like, uh, felt scrutiny.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:07Chris Williamson?

  And, um, existing patterns of how is this going to show up in the world? Can I operate this way inside of my business? Is this something that I can do that's publicly acceptable? It's like, it doesn't, you can go and work on this thing in isolation and then come back. But yeah, I, I, I know what it's like to be a really sensitive kid, growing up that didn't have anywhere to put it, because you're in a working class, blue collar environment, or the people around you don't notice or don't have the tools to be able to help. And it can drive you to do really amazing things, but it also creates a bunch of coping mechanisms that mean, huh, I had this weird gift, like I had this depth of connection that I could have had with the world, and I contorted it, alchemized it, you could

• 28:52Chris Williamson?

  say, because it went from something that was a challenge to something that you've turned into something good.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:56Chris Williamson?

  But it is kind of a denial of a bit of yourself as well, at the same time. So that's been, this has been a, it's one of the reasons I was excited to speak to you, because it, it's a, a very personal, like, super interesting topic. I, I think it's fascinating.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  I think a lot of emotionally sensitive people also, they go through life and they hide that part of them, because there's so much internalized shame about, like, you're not supposed to be sensitive, you're supposed to be strong, you're supposed to be able to handle stuff, you're, I mean, male and females, like, I mean, this is something that as a human condition, people are, are celebrated for like, you were able to get on the other side of that adversity, like you did so well, you didn't complain, you didn't do, and so like you, from a young age, you just kind of learn to shut down that part of yourself or become really embarrassed. I remember being like a kid and, you know, my mom, something would happen and it would like hit my ear the wrong way. And I'd, I would think that, oh my God, like, I'm so embarrassed or something, and

• 29:53Speaker 01

  I would like go and hide, I would like hide under a table or hide in a closet or I would do, because I was just like embarrassed and sad and everything happening all at once. And eventually I was like, this is young, like eight, I was like, this is not conducive for me moving forward.

• 30:09Chris Williamson?

  I'm not functioning well.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is, I can't do that when I'm grown up. And so then you just start hiding it. So if you're emotional or if you're having a hard day, you lie about it, you're like, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine, it's not a big deal, I don't want to talk about it. Or, and sometimes I would be like, I don't want to talk about it with other people because I'll cry, and that'll prove that I'm emotionally sensitive. And so I, I hear that story a lot as well.

• 30:35Chris Williamson?

  The insight that suppression isn't the same thing as strength?

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:39Chris Williamson?

  Is.

• 30:41Chris Williamson?

  I know, kind of, kind of world changing that what you're doing, if you're an emotionally sensitive person that's swallowing them down is you're performing the role of somebody who's got composure.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:53Chris Williamson?

  But that's not the same as having composure. That's not the same, or you're performing the role of somebody that hasn't felt the thing. But that's not the same as

• 31:00Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:00Chris Williamson?

  not feeling the thing.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:01Chris Williamson?

  And you've got this line, "The real challenge lies in not feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support their sensitivity."

• 31:10Speaker 01

  That's a good quote.

• 31:11Chris Williamson?

  It's a great, it's, it's a great line. It really is. "The real challenge lies not in feeling deeply, but in living in a world that doesn't always know how to support their sensitivity." Yeah, yeah. The world feels very spiky. Every time I come back from retreat, I always feel like everything is so tender.

• 31:28Speaker 01

  I know.

• 31:28Chris Williamson?

  And then what you get to see is how operating in a world that's incredibly intense, very chaotic, fast moving, you have to create these strange patterns and coping mechanisms and wall yourself off and guard yourself just so that you can move through the day. And that's fine, right? You don't want to be a whimpering blob on the floor. I don't want to be a puddle. I don't want to be a puddle of emotions. I want to be able to show up. But then also, there are bits of your experience that you're denying yourself.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:56Chris Williamson?

  And there are strengths that you can have that come along for this. That's a question. What are the strengths of highly sensitive people? What are the strengths of people with rejection sensitive dysphoria?

• 32:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think being able, again, I think that there is a direct pipeline between being highly emotionally sensitive and being highly emotionally intelligent. And I think that's just how you deal with that sensitivity. And so some of the strengths that can come with that emotional sensitivity are, number one, you have a deep, deep, deep understanding of other people's emotional insides. And I think that's part of, you know, what led me into psychiatry in the first place. That's part of why I've continued to enjoy it as much as I have, because I think that you can intimately understand when people are talking about their experience, or like you can even understand, you know, sometimes I'll have a patient come into my office and

• 32:49Speaker 01

  you start asking them questions and, you know, their answer is like, I don't know. Like, okay, so can you tell me anything in the past two months that has really made you upset? I don't know. Like, and so then it's for a lot of people, that's like a stone wall. You don't really know where to go from there. But for some people who are highly emotionally sensitive, you're picking up like, okay, I'm picking up from like previous body cues that they were giving me when they were talking about their family, or when they were answering in certain ways. You're just like, okay, well, there's some tension there. And so you start asking about other questions. So you're picking up stuff that you might not even have clocked as it was happening at the time, but you've amalgamated and you know exactly what direction to go. I think that's an incredibly wonderful thing to have.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  And I think that, yeah, that outside of just psychiatry, I think that does make you a good friend. It makes you a good partner. It makes you a good parent. I think it's so helpful with parenting. So I think, I think it's just that huge scope of understanding that emotional condition.

• 33:52Chris Williamson?

  Does emotional sensitivity have an impact on people's self-esteem?

• 33:57Speaker 01

  Um, yes. But sometimes it can be negative. You know, if, if you're highly emotionally sensitive, I think, and you're used to reading emotional data negatively, sometimes that can start to impact your self-esteem and you're, you're walking into a room and, you know, self-worth and self-confidence are different, but you walk into a room and you start to feel like, okay, maybe I'm not wanted here and things like that. And, and you're reading emotional information and possibly attaching a narrative on there that doesn't actually exist. That can impact your self-esteem for sure. But there are other times, like, for example, in the work that I do as a psychiatrist, because of that emotional sensitivity, I'm celebrated for that.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  And I think it's a really unique field to be in as an emotionally sensitive person, because that's one of the areas where I get the most validation, because people feel like they have been understood for the first time.

• 34:51Chris Williamson?

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• 35:33Chris Williamson?

  Right now, you can get up to 35% off your first subscription and that 30-day money-back guarantee by going to the link in the description below, or heading to livemomentous.com/ModernWisdom and using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's L-I-V-E-M-O-M-E-N-T-O-U-S dot com slash Modern Wisdom, Modern Wisdom at checkout. What's the difference between confidence and self-esteem?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  I think self-esteem is like inherent, inherent in like, that's, that's you. Confidence is more, I think, what you're capable of and what you're, you know, your, like your confidence in your skills and what you can do in that moment. So confidence, I think, fluctuates and self-esteem is just self-worth is your base.

• 36:15Chris Williamson?

  Okay. Does that mean that people with RSD are more likely to need constant reassurance?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:21Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Yes, it is. Because I think what, what's happening is that they're getting this negative input, or potentially it's not actually negative.

• 36:30Chris Williamson?

  They're reading neutral input as negative. Or positive input is negative.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:34Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  That's happened too. But you're reading it as negative. And so there are times where you get so stuck in these amygdala loops of fear and your, your stress hormones are like just cascading through your body, that you're just like, I just need someone else to tell me that I'm not like, that this isn't actually the case. And so it's a, it's a form of reality testing.

• 36:57Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Do you think that you can build self-esteem without external validation?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  I think with, you know, I guess success is kind of external validation, but, but doing, I think there is stuff that you can work on your self-esteem. One of the biggest things to help with self-esteem, I think, is understanding your own brain. Because I think if you have this, if you are able to de-stigmatize for yourself, like, this isn't a personal feeling. This is just truly neurobiologically how my brain is working. I think that can bolster your self-esteem pretty tremendously.

• 37:38Chris Williamson?

  Does this mean that compliments are hard for these people to believe? That somebody pays you a compliment, is it quite likely that it's going to be brushed off by someone with RSD?

• 37:47Speaker 01

  Sometimes, sometimes. I think it depends on, on how they're receiving it in that moment, like, and what the, what the relationship is with the person. Like, for example, if it's a relationship where, you know, a sibling that's always kind of been a straight broker and they get a compliment, you know, you might not feel like, I don't trust that compliment, that's weird. If it might be, they're already self-conscious about something and they don't know the other person well, and they give them a compliment, maybe that hits their ear weird, because they're already kind of self-conscious about it. It really depends on where they are in that moment.

• 38:20Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 38:20Speaker 01

  But it's possible.

• 38:21Chris Williamson?

  How does emotional sensitivity show up in relationships?

• 38:26Speaker 01

  Um.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  It

• 38:29Chris Williamson?

  You sound exasperated by that question.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  I know, because it's such a broad question. Um, I think emotional sensitivity plays a role in every relationship, like whether you're highly emotionally sensitive or not, I think relationships are just kind of this minefield for emotions anyway. Because for, in a very real way, you're putting yourself in a spot of vulnerability. You are, you know, I mean theoretically, in vulnerability, where you're exposing parts of yourself to another person and you're having to navigate those waters and see, you know, you're really like putting it out there and if the person likes you or doesn't like you, you're, you're putting yourself out there to possibly receive rejection, possibly receive criticism. So I think that for a highly emotionally sensitive person can get really tricky.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  And people, I know a lot of people that are highly emotionally sensitive, who have rejection sensitive dysphoria, who don't want to date anymore. They're like, this is too hard. I can't do that because as soon as there is a delay in texting, I've convinced myself that this person isn't, isn't interested and I've re-downloaded an app.

• 39:36Chris Williamson?

  Why does waiting for a text feel so unbearable?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I think it's just that.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  That lack of that immediate answer and that knowledge, your brain just fills in a narrative in that empty space. And so like, for example, if they were interested, they would respond to me right away. If they like, I've even had people who have thought, and I've thought this in the past. If I'm sitting on someone who hasn't texted back, my brain will go to, well, they're with somebody else. Like they're, they're not thinking about me. They're with somebody else. And like, by the time they respond, like they got off of their shift, I have already moved on, like I'm angry with them. And then, you know, it takes a while for me to recalibrate and figure out, but that, sometimes that's where my brain has gone.

• 40:23Chris Williamson?

  Right. So does this mean that anxious people sometimes will sabotage relationships?

• 40:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:29Chris Williamson?

  Before they've even had the chance to be rejected?

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 40:32Chris Williamson?

  How does that show up?

• 40:33Speaker 01

  I mean, that was my pattern in all of my twenties, like as soon as-

• 40:36Chris Williamson?

  What would you do?

• 40:36Speaker 01

  Be like, as soon as people got close enough and I was worried that I was, you know, like, we're getting a little bit too close and now I have to show you actual parts of myself or, or I'm, I'm afraid that if you know certain parts of myself, or you know that I'm really, really emotionally sensitive. And I overthink absolutely everything that you say, you're gonna leave, so I'm just gonna end it. So I've never been broken up with.

• 41:07Chris Williamson?

  Ever.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Cause I would just like-

• 41:10Chris Williamson?

  You can't find me, I quit.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I quit. I'm out of here. So I would just leave before, and, and it was literally no fault of their own.

• 41:20Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 41:20Speaker 01

  They would not be the cause of this.

• 41:22Chris Williamson?

  Big fear of abandonment?

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, I mean, not even abandonment, just like, because it wouldn't be abandonment, because I would opt, I would rather be alone. I like, but I don't want you to say something negative about me. I don't want you to point out something that I already fear about myself. I don't want you, I don't want you to say those words that you don't want to be with me. Like, I'm fine alone. I just don't want you to say that.

• 41:47Chris Williamson?

  Because that would be a judgment on you and that would be you being pushed away?

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm fine by myself, but I just don't want you to push me away.

• 41:54Chris Williamson?

  Okay, like vulnerability hangovers as well, after you've opened up having this-

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:59Chris Williamson?

  Period of time. What is vulnerability hangover?

• 42:02Speaker 01

  To me, it is, and like for so many of my patients, it's this period where you feel like you've shared too much and you've been too vulnerable and you have like let in somebody else a little bit into your internal environment. And so you've, you've cracked that door open so they can see that kind of stuff. And so then what my brain does is I just spin and spin and spin and think about like, okay, well now they know this. They probably know this and they probably, they're probably thinking that I'm just like a huge weenie and that I can't handle anything and that I, you know, and that, and I think it's like a direct shot from being very vulnerable to being very embarrassed and then pulling away.

• 42:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it feels to me like the common thread between a lot of this is not really the feeling of the emotions deeply. It's the story that you tell yourself about what those emotions mean and what other people might think about you for having them. It's like a lot of shame wrapped up in this, at least that's how I'm interpreting it.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  I think, I think if you were to look at emotional sensitivity kind of as a spectrum. I mean, there is a place where, you know, maybe you're not as emotionally sensitive as you might should be.

• 43:09Chris Williamson?

  Dana White.

• 43:11Speaker 01

  I don't want to say it. Then there is a place where, you know, you're, you're ups and downs, you're kind of regulated up in the middle. There's a place where I think you're highly emotionally sensitive. And then I think when you move further down that road-

• 43:24Chris Williamson?

  Pathologically sensitive.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's, that's more rejection sensitive dysphoria.

• 43:29Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay. So we're talking about the most sensitive people.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  That's what I say, yeah.

• 43:33Chris Williamson?

  Okay, and, and you consider this to be you?

• 43:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 43:35Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay. But you've managed to operate in the world? I mean, you've chosen a very specific industry to be in.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:43Chris Williamson?

  Right? I think this is a, this is the thing, again, if we were to take you at one end of the spectrum and Dana White at the other, physiologically also, two very different humans.

• 43:52Chris Williamson?

  What has happened there, which is, I guess, pretty great, like Dana White would probably make a fucking horrendous psychiatrist. And I don't, I don't think that you would be fantastic as the CEO of the UFC or fighting sport.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  You don't know.

• 44:03Chris Williamson?

  Well, maybe, you're right, but, but there are dispositions and there are situations that you put yourself into. If you were in a relationship with somebody who was go, go, go, doesn't really think about emotions that much, isn't able to sit with you in the muck, isn't able to hold space that much, that would be a bad type of partnership.

• 44:21Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:22Chris Williamson?

  Now, I'm sure you can make it work. Maybe you could even have a flourishing relationship. But it would be done by like gritting your teeth and gripping the bar incredibly aggressively.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:29Chris Williamson?

  The same thing for Dana White. If Dana White was in a relationship or in a business where he constantly had to sort of be very fluffy and very soft and sort of patient, sensitive, more demure, you know, moving at a more delicate pace. I don't, he might be able to make it work. I'm sure that he, he is a flexible, competent human. But if he does that, he's gonna be like not fully utilizing this part of his capacity in the same way as the world loses a great psychiatrist if you become the CEO of the UFC.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:00Chris Williamson?

  So this, and this to me is like compatibility, the more that I think about it and the older that I get, compatibility is kind of everything in life. Okay, I have this type of a disposition. I can work on it and I can try and smooth off some of the edges that do feel a little bit close to pathological or just a bit maladaptive, right?

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:18Chris Williamson?

  It's, it's firing in the wrong, at the wrong times and I want it to be a little bit more this and a bit less that.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 45:23Chris Williamson?

  But largely, you have a set and a suite of strengths that come along with this particular disposition that you have. And you can put yourself in a situation where those aren't things that you need to curtail. They're things that you can use as a platform and a springboard.

• 45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:38Chris Williamson?

  I pay a lot of attention to stuff, right? I pay a lot of attention specifically words. Words was like my first love as a kid. I read a lot as a kid. And now it means that when I build brands, like I've built this thing, I built this podcast, word, wordplay and coming up with cool copy and spending obsessive amounts of time. The, for the first run that we ever did, you'll see that there's three icons on the back of this can.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:59Chris Williamson?

  One of the icons was half a point off, offset on the back. And this had gone through, like we sold millions of cans and no one had noticed. And one day I picked the can up and I was like, guys, there's something wrong with the back of the can. The only reason that that was able to be seen was because of that level of attention to detail. Now, is that going to be the difference between this being a billion dollar brand and not? Probably not. However, that same trait-

• 46:24Speaker 01

  Delicious.

• 46:24Chris Williamson?

  Wonderful. That's, that's, from a board certified psychiatrist nonetheless.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:32Chris Williamson?

  My point being, I work in industries where that attention to detail can be used properly, right? Can be used really well. Let's say that I was an architect or an engineer that helped to build bridges or I was somebody, maybe a surgeon's assistant or something like that, like really paying attention to how clean the surfaces are. Things like, like that'd be great. If I was in a different industry, I'm not convinced that that level of attention to detail will be so good. So again, what I'm kind of trying to get at here is that for people who think, wow, I, I feel stuff a lot or I pay a lot of attention or I, I focus on things, I tend to ruminate, I tend to have intrusive thoughts that play out these pantomimes of what might have happened with this person and their motivations. It's like, okay, that can be and should be

• 47:15Chris Williamson?

  alchemized in some ways, right? You can, we can work on that. But also you can just find worlds and domains in which that's like a, a real fucking superpower. And I think that trying to get people to not see that suppression as a strength, but to see, okay, the issue is not you being sensitive, the issue is you being in a world that doesn't utilize your sensitivity properly. I think that's a, I don't know, it's just an interesting way to get tactical around it.

• 47:39Speaker 01

  That's how I ended up in psychiatry. So I went into medical school with the hopes of doing pediatrics. My mom's a pediatrician. I was like, that's what I'm gonna do. I got through pediatrics and I'm like, hmm, this is a little boring. I, I wish it wasn't, but I was like, I can't be in clinic all day and I also can't be sick every winter. Like, I can't do it.

• 47:58Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  And so I was like, okay, let me pivot and I'm gonna do Peds ICU. Like, I really thought that was my calling. And it was because I was like, I'm doing all this work from med school and like this is the superhero job. Like I'm saving children. Like there's nothing that is better than that.

• 48:19Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  I went in for my like letter of recommendation, walk into her office. I was like at the door of our office and this woman like stops me at the door and she's like, I hope you're not coming in here for a letter. And I was like, okay, what? And she's like, you cry all the time. You cannot do this. You will burn out in five seconds. And I, like, I wish, and I put this in my book, like this story, because I was like, I, like, in my brain, I was like, just say something, make a noise, respond. I, I couldn't even say anything because I was like, she's correct. I knew in that moment that she was correct, like it, that were, every day I went to work that I was in the Peds ICU,

• 48:59Speaker 01

  I was scared and I was upset and I like, I, like, I would be like reporting to my, um, attending and I would be telling them what happened overnight and I'm like crying as I'm telling them at the bedside. And so I leave her office and I was sitting in my car and I was like, okay, well, I guess what area of medicine can I cry in? And that's when I ended up in psychiatry. And so that's, I mean, it, you, finding an environment that can hold all of that emotional sensitivity, I think is really important.

• 49:36Chris Williamson?

  And the same thing goes for friendships and relationships.

• 49:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:40Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Just on the relationship thing, texting, waiting for texts, why is uncertainty so much harder to deal with than bad news?

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Oh, cause it's not, I think, I think it's, it's the, the fact that it's not different. Hard news, bad news, difficult, but I think at some point you're like, okay, that's really bad. But here are the steps I need to do to make it better and like now I can kind of make a game plan. The uncertainty, I will tell you, 10 times out of 10, I will convince myself that a way worse outcome is happening in real time. And so I've already convinced myself that the worst possible outcome is happening. Rather than if I actually get, you know, the, the knowledge that something bad is happening, I'm like, okay, that's not as bad as what I thought it would be.

• 50:33Chris Williamson?

  I suppose as well.

• 50:36Chris Williamson?

  You can create situations in imagination that like defy the laws of physics. Like your dead great grandmother can come back from the grave to laugh at you about the things. That can't even happen. But that's how much our brains abhor having uncertainty, that they would rather fantasize a nightmare than deal with ambiguity.

• 50:53Speaker 01

  I know that I for one have have come up with situations where like then later I'm telling like my mom has taken the brunt of this where I'm telling her all this stuff and she's like, what?

• 51:05Chris Williamson?

  That's deranged.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  What is this? How did that come in your brain?

• 51:08Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so this must be the same thing. The same dynamic of why ghosting is so damaging.

• 51:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:16Chris Williamson?

  Because there's no closure.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:18Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 51:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no closure. And I think also, like, this is.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Ghosting is just awful. People shouldn't do that. Just, just so you know. It's just an awful way to communicate. I think this is one of those things where as an emotionally sensitive person, you, you. Ghosting is not just like, okay, this is the dissolution of the relationship. Your brain automatically goes into. There's something about me that forced this person away. And, and so that uncertainty.

• 51:52Chris Williamson?

  Not they're an asshole, it's I'm insufficient.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  Yes. So it gets turned on you and which I think is such. It's so cruel to do to somebody else.

• 52:01Chris Williamson?

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• 52:45Chris Williamson?

  And right now you can get $25 off, bringing it down to 340 bucks. Get the exact same blood panels that I use and save $25 by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/ModernWisdom. That's functionhealth.com/ModernWisdom. I'm wondering to sort of take it back to the how RSD and emotional sensitivity shows up in men. I wonder whether emotionally avoidant men are sometimes just emotionally sensitive men in disguise that don't have enough courage.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. A lot of times, yes. I think emotionally avoidant men. You know, you.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Again, going back to this thing of like, men really don't have. A lot of space to explore how to be emotionally sensitive.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Because, you know, just from a young age, they're told that they can't be. And so they learn how to suppress it and to change it. And so when they're put into situations where they may have to be emotionally sensitive, or they may have to. You know, engage in a way that they could get hurt, or they could get rejected, or something else could trigger sadness or an emotional response. They're just like, nope, I'm out. I'm just gonna pull myself away from this. I mean, I've told you about, I mean, I've been avoidant in the past because of that.

• 54:04Chris Williamson?

  How do you draw the line between emotional sensitivity and emotional fragility? Because what we're talking about here is, hey, you have this superpower. There's going to be some challenges that come along with it. But wherever you are on the spectrum from, from Dana White to yourself, the.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  I love that we're the extremes.

• 54:21Chris Williamson?

  I think you are. I really think you, I think you're kind of technically different species.

• 54:27Chris Williamson?

  I'm interested in when saying. This is actually something that you need to man up about. This is something that you need to get over. This is something that you need to grit your teeth and work through. As opposed to, you just don't fully understand how emotionally fluid and sensitive I am. Like, I feel things deeply, you know? Because everybody likes the idea of being validated.

• 54:48Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 54:48Chris Williamson?

  But validation done to the extreme results in no accountability.

• 54:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:53Chris Williamson?

  Right? There's no point. If, if every emotion that you feel and every response that you have is valid, then you go, okay. In that case, I don't have to work on anything.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 55:02Chris Williamson?

  I can just be as big of an asshole or a pussy as I want and never actually, as opposed to, okay, there are. There are some limits that I need to push myself up against. So I think a lot of people will be feeling this as they listen. It's like, right, okay, like these people, this is interesting. Like, my sister or my girlfriend is like, she. Cries at things that I wouldn't usually. And sometimes it takes a while for her to come back down after she's had an emotional event and so on and so forth. Like, how does somebody know when it's emotional fragility that should be worked on? When should they push and when should they pivot?

• 55:32Speaker 01

  I don't think it's for another person to make that decision. I think it's for the person experiencing that moment. Cause like for me, I think this is what that past three years of research has gotten me to. Cause it, I, for years, I'm like, am I too fragile? Am I too weak? What is wrong? Like, what is this? And I think it. We've just emotionally sensitive people in general have been kind of. Put, and not put, but existing in an extremely difficult, like right now, the world is a hard place to be a human in. This is just a weird time to live.

• 56:08Chris Williamson?

  If you want to feel feelings, it is. If you don't want to feel feelings, it's actually quite a fun place to be in, I think. You know, there's like so much, there's, there's so much novelty and there's lots of things that you can do and you can have an infinite number of. Like, the velocity of different stimulus that you can enjoy, that's great. But if you actually want to feel feelings, it's kind of horrendous.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm on the horrendous end. Like, I, I think, I think existing in the world right now can sometimes be very difficult.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  But I think that for an emotionally sensitive person, we've also never been given tools. Like there's, we have been told you're too sensitive, you're too fragile, you're too weak, and you need to kind of strengthen yourself. But no one's told you how to do that. And really what it boils down to is, is looking at that, like, there's that step of us receiving that emotional data. And then how do we catch it kind of in that moment? So that we can, you know, impact either, we're not going to change the processing because we're still going to read it. But can we impact the intensity? Can we impact the duration? Can we get past this and make it a usable moment?

• 57:18Speaker 01

  And there are skills and tools that come with it. And that's what three years of like pulling from every area of psychology and psychiatry. To give tools that were, would work in the moment and over time. That's what led to this book, because I don't think people have that. I never got that.

• 57:35Chris Williamson?

  What are the most powerful emotional regulation tools?

• 57:40Speaker 01

  Okay, so I, I came up with the Calm Your Mind Toolkit, which is 12 of them.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  And I will, I will tell you that all of them are, are things that you've probably heard before. You, you've heard challenge negative thoughts, you've heard move your body, you've heard delay your reaction, you've heard stuff like that. But I think for. An emotionally sensitive person or someone who's going through big emotions in real time. Things can get so overwhelming in that moment that it's like when I have that. Like, get absolutely flooded emotionally, nothing is happening up here. Like, I can't think or process or like utilize, what tool am I supposed to use? So this was so helpful for me to actually go through and in a place where I was regulated, I could be like, okay, this is the tool I want to use.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  And then actually break down the steps, knowing from an emotionally sensitive brain, this is when I'm going to feel blank. Now, if I have this book that can tell me like step by step what I'm supposed to do. Cause that's what I wish I had. I just, I just want like a guy, I wanted. A guide, because I think it would have made med school easier, it would have made dating easier, it would have made, you know, the early years of my marriage easier. It would have made parenting easier. I think it's just there. Did that answer your question?

• 58:57Chris Williamson?

  Well, I guess. Pick the top three tools to calm your mind and how do people do them correctly?

• 59:03Speaker 01

  That was the question. Okay. I think one of my favorite ones is just utilizing movement. Cause I think that there is a tremendous, and I'm not saying like you have to be in like some heavy duty, like. Weightlifting kind of thing and you have to do a certain amount of cardio or something. I'm saying that when you are incredibly emotionally overloaded, there's a tremendous amount of value in like. Physical movement and one to like pattern disruption. So you're actually moving. Two, you're getting oxygenated glucose to your brain and hopefully shunting it to that frontal lobe. So you can get resources there so you can think and process and override that amygdala in real time.

• 59:42Chris Williamson?

  What does that look like? Someone's going through a event where they're emotionally activated. Do they start doing pushups?

• 59:49Speaker 01

  I mean, whatever flows through your belt, man. But I, I would say like during. I, the last time I utilized it in real time. It was in a meeting and I was talking, during the meeting, I was talking about leaving the practice I'd been at for nine years and starting my own practice. And so I'm like, there were, all of my partners were around me. I felt like I was, like I was overcome with guilt and fear about starting something new. And it was just, it was a very big moment for me. And I recognized like, okay, this is what I need to do. And even within that, I just from under, like, I started like just. Tensing my calves and like moving my legs and, and just like, and I think when you look at like ADHD.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  In general, because you know, almost 100% of people with ADHD have some, some form of RSD or, you know, they're, they're fall on that spectrum. You look at fidgeting and things like that as a form of like emotional regulation and self-stimulation and things like that. You're trying to actually surge some of that dopamine, noradrenaline kind of data.

• 1:00:58Chris Williamson?

  Okay, movement.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:59Chris Williamson?

  What next?

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  You're asking me my favorites. So I'm thinking about the ones I've most recently used. One of them. Really like, and it's delay your reaction. Cause my initial impulse, the minute I get pressed up against the wall or like if I have like this, like big emotional stuff that I don't know how to deal with is I, I respond with urgency. So. All of the time, if something is happening, like if there is a delay in a text message, I will be that person who texts a four time, where are you? What's happening? And this is just like a reminder, like if I delay my response, I'm allowing that amygdala to stop spinning as much. And I allow that frontal lobe to come on.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  And then the narrative I'm telling myself is going to be significantly less negative. And usually by that time, that person has responded.

• 1:01:51Chris Williamson?

  Does that not also create more time and uncertainty though?

• 1:01:55Speaker 01

  Here's the deal. I think that if you are, if you understand that that it's a very purposeful and mindful thing that you're doing. If you, if you know that that's what you're doing for your brain, you're not, you're not just like stepping away. And like, you're like, okay, well, maybe they'll respond in that time. I'm stepping away because I know that I need to give my brain time to just like stop overheating. Like I want my amygdala to stop spinning out of control. I want my frontal lobe to come online. I want to give it enough time to do that because I know that I will think better. I think that gives me, I know that I'm using a tool. I'm not just sitting there.

• 1:02:34Chris Williamson?

  How has it been being a mom with this? Because when I think about even the well-balanced parents, there is anxiety. Where's my kid? They're late back from soccer practice. I don't know when they're going to come through the door. Who, who are you going out with this evening? I have to assume that the disposition that you're going into parenting with can be great because you're going to be attuned to your child's needs, but can also be highly chaotic because you're going to feel worried.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I think, I mean, it's chaotic, but I think all parenting is kind of chaotic, to be honest with you. I think it's just, it's a, it's, it's a wild ride. But I think that I'm very lucky because my husband is very measured and calm and patient. And so I think he is like such a good emotional barometer for all of us. And I think that in that context where I feel so much safety and so much, you know, we're all given kind of free rein to explore our feelings and to navigate through life. I think being emotionally sensitive as a parent has been really helpful for me.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  And it's really helped me kind of understand, because kids like can be very annoying. This is part of being a kid.

• 1:03:52Chris Williamson?

  Well, reliably, they grow up to be annoying adults as well.

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, they can be annoying, totally. But as kids, there's stuff like even just like noise and, and just like stuff that they do. And you know, they're not little adults, they're kids. Their frontal lobes aren't developed, they don't know any better. But you're, you're so tired and fatigued from this non-stop like marathon of parenting that sometimes it's, it's hard to remember that. I think being emotionally sensitive, you look at your kid having a big emotional moment and you're like, I know what this feels like and I know what, what can help you come out of it. And it's not going to be like snapping or yelling or like trying to pull you out of that moment by force. It's, it's giving you that safety and that, and that freedom to explore and figure out the solution for yourself

• 1:04:40Speaker 01

  and pull yourself out of it.

• 1:04:41Chris Williamson?

  Exercise, delay your response. What's your third favorite?

• 1:04:45Speaker 01

  My third favorite?

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  I think you'll like this, is mindfulness. I think being, it's like really, really drilling down on the mindfulness. And for me, I think what is really important about this is not for, I always thought that mindfulness is like factory reset, like you gotta be thinking about nothing. Like if you're doing meditation or something like that, nothing is going on in your brain. And I think the difference for me is giving myself the space to non-judgmentally just observe what's happening in my brain and like just observe what is going on. And there, you know, there, there was a study that came out of Yale that was looking at this mindfulness and like the power of like just observation instead of like judgmentally rushing to solve that feeling.

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  Just looking at the feeling, it reduces activation in the brain.

• 1:05:39Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Yeah, I mean, that was something that I learned on that, that meditation retreat. It's an interesting style of meditation, Jhana, which is the one that I was doing. So with mindfulness, it's a bit more brute forcey, which is I think why it's become more popular. You have a thought, you notice the thought is there and then you sort of release it away. You almost, it's not quite a pushing, it's more an opening of the hand. But with the school that I was doing, you, you actually welcome that in. So you pull the thought towards yourself. So you see the part of you that goes, um, you start thinking about work and then you judge yourself for being distracted for thinking about work. And then you notice both of those thoughts and you go, wow, that's that bit of me that thinks about work. I got really glad that I care that much about my pursuits.

• 1:06:24Chris Williamson?

  Like, why don't you come like, show some gratitude to that? And then wow, there's that bit of me that's judging me for not being good at this thing. He just wants to work so hard. Like he really wants to do this thing right and he's here to protect me. And like, you can come here as well. And as you continue to do that, it's a very different, it was a very different experience, especially do it. I've done, I don't know, 2,000, two and a half thousand sessions of Pasana across my life. And then got thrust into this new school. I guess it must be similar to learning to kickbox your entire life and then going and doing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. And you go, well, I'm still fighting somebody, but the way that I'm doing it, the domain is completely different. And um, yeah, one of the things that was kind of interesting, at least with the mindfulness part there was it's, it's very much about emotional conductivity.

• 1:07:08Chris Williamson?

  It's about, okay, how can I see what I'm feeling completely non-judgmentally? And I think that it's the same thing that you're getting at. With one of them, you're letting it go and with the other one, you're bringing it in. But for both of them, there is a lack of judgment, right? And I think that that shame spiral that we were talking about is, you talked about kids there. What do you think TikTok is doing and social media? What do you think social media is doing to emotionally sensitive teenagers?

• 1:07:34Speaker 01

  Oh, well, okay, so here's the deal. I think, I think social media is just a weird place in general. And that, that's coming from someone who is on social media. Um, I myself find my, I get triggered by social media all the time. I'm constantly comparing myself to others. I feel like my, a lot of my day-to-day um, relationship with self-worth for a long time was driven by numbers, like how many likes did I get on a post? How much engagement am I getting? Like how, like what's happening on that? That's what was driving like, am I good at what I'm doing? Like is, I was getting that external validation.

• 1:08:16Speaker 01

  I am, I'm a physician who's gone to med school and who studied the brain, like, and that's still happening to me. So for kids whose their frontal lobe isn't fully developed, I think they probably are at higher risk. And so I think that it's just a difficult, I don't think, I don't think completely like shielding them from social media and, and from that entire world. Just like you can't really, like the train is moving. You can't, you can't completely shelter your kids from absolutely everything. You have to teach them how to navigate these constantly evolving waters.

• 1:08:56Chris Williamson?

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• 1:09:39Chris Williamson?

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• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  I think there is a huge part that's genetic. There is a huge part that also, if you grow up in like this incredibly chaotic and tumultuous home, you are already hypervigilant, you're searching for cues. You, you can be more emotionally sensitive because of that as well.

• 1:10:17Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. And then if those two things get combined.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay. How early does rejection sensitivity emerge?

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  You, I mean, you could see it in two-year-olds, you could see it in three-year-olds.

• 1:10:28Chris Williamson?

  Right. Are there some parenting behaviors you think that accidentally create emotional sensitivity or maybe even fragility?

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't, I think that there's some things that a lot of parents are doing in hopes that they are getting a more resilient child, like teaching them, you don't need to cry about this, you need to move on, you need to, you know, this isn't a big deal. Where, and the way that I kind of have thought about those kind of, because like even raising my own kids, like I think about that all the time. I'm like, that isn't that big of a deal. Like my kid had a tantrum the other day that I wouldn't give him the heel of like the loaf of bread. And I was like, that's objectively the worst part. Like you don't want that, I don't want to give it to you. And like, it was like a huge thing.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  But then I was like, this kid has not dealt with like disappointment yet. It just, from what I'm understanding, this is probably one of the worst things that's happened to date. Like he hasn't had a very hard life. So like, I need to teach him how to navigate disappointment instead of being like, this isn't a big deal. It probably is kind of a big deal to him. He really wants that heel of bread. And so it's, you know, and I don't really have a good reason not to give him it. But like, we just, we had to navigate through that moment. And like with big tantrums, you, you deal with that. But I think it's easy in that moment to be like, this is a dumb problem. Move on.

• 1:11:58Chris Williamson?

  I think the heel of bread is actually a really lovely meme for everything, which is working out the difference between validating feelings and encouraging victimhood. And this is in adulthood as well. You know, there can be a situation that you're in where what you're after is a heel of bread. And everybody around you and you yourself, the better version of you, has every right to go, no dude, you don't want that, like you're being silly, you're being ridiculous. Um, and again, finding this difference and finding the line between validating somebody's feelings and going, hey, I know that you feel this way, but also not encouraging them to further.

• 1:12:38Chris Williamson?

  Weaken the resilience that they need emotionally. I think that's where the sort of rubber is really going to meet the road with this thing.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  How we got through that moment, this Gila bread moment, is I took out a Gila bread and then I took out another piece of bread and I was like, let me just tell you, these are the two pieces of bread we were talking about and I know you want this one. Describe what you like about this one instead of this one. And then he's like, no, I wanted this one instead. And so I like, I think it was just like, he was so stuck on this idea and like, didn't get past it. And like, instead of just being like, that's dumb, allowing him to actually see and get to that conclusion. Like, I don't actually want the Gila bread was helpful for us.

• 1:13:25Chris Williamson?

  How does RSD show up in work and achievement? Because I have to assume that these are the overachievers, the perfectionists.

• 1:13:33Speaker 01

  Sometimes, but sometimes it actually, before you can even get to that spot where you're kind of overcompensating, you're not even putting yourself out there. So I have patients who have been, you know, I couldn't even, like, I got spooked in the job interview. And I like walked out, I couldn't do it. Like, I didn't feel like they liked me. So you get past that spot and you're in the work environment. Sometimes you are so, and you see this a lot with high achieving people and especially high achieving women. I think societally, there's just like this pressure on women to do everything, to do it all and to just like not complain. So if another thing comes along their way, yes, I can do it. Yes, I can take that on.

• 1:14:18Speaker 01

  Yes, I can do all this stuff. And so you just, what happens is that you start to override the signs of burnout and you just keep adding more and more and more onto your plate because you don't want to look like you're less than your peers. You don't want to look, you don't want people to be like, ah, she was able to do that last week. Why can't she do that this week? You don't want to look incapable. And so you just keep adding more until you kind of reach that tipping point where you can't.

• 1:14:43Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I think it's a, I found this essay, The Ambitious Mother Paradox. Good mother or wasted potential? It's really great. It's quite a long read, but there's a really interesting line here that says, "The implicit logic of protecting your right to work in the workforce was clear. You can't argue for equal access and then immediately ask for accommodation that implies you are different. That women have just been brought into the workplace. This is not something they want to be taken away from them. This is something that they're worried might be taken away from them. And yet there are certain elements of many people's, but often many women's psychologies

• 1:15:22Chris Williamson?

  that can make the workplace feel like kind of a spiky and unforgiving and a bit sterile and cold place to be. Like, hey, your emotional sensitivity in this capitalist, meritocratic, very fast paced environment. There's not a massive amount of room for that.

• 1:15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:39Chris Williamson?

  And yet you also know as somebody who's just gotten into this high powered career, that you fought for this. And everybody else, all of the other women that have just fought for this have just got here. And you're like, well, I like, I really want to be here and I don't want it to be taken away from me. And now I feel bad about asking for accommodation that implies that I'm different, which is, I feel this thing and the guys around me don't seem to be feeling it in quite the same way. Or maybe they're just able to suppress it more effectively than I am. I thought it was such a, I'd never really heard of anybody highlight the fact that there is a, there's a tension, like a bridge doing this in an earthquake that's moving in difficult directions that creates a sort of a pull on the system, especially for women in the workplace, especially for highly sensitive women in the workplace.

• 1:16:23Chris Williamson?

  I feel like I need to show up as the men that I think are the ones that are running the company. But I want to be one of the women that's maybe running the company. But I'm like denying part of the nurturing empathetic people skills that I've got that are my competitive advantage. So I need to perform in this way and I don't want to be seen as less than. And I also want to protect it for everybody else, but I also don't want to deny myself. And I might need to ask for a bit of support, but I'm worried if I have to support, that's accommodation for this brand new world. I just, like, it's hard. I reading that essay, this big massive essay by Taylor, I was like, that's a lot. That's a lot to navigate.

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  It's a lot. And then just like from a logistical perspective, there's also that, you know, child rearing falls in that. So all of a sudden you're at the peak of your career, you have a kid, you have to step away from that and then reintegrate. And then all of a sudden you'll find that, you know, and, you know, it's probably because you did step away. It now, you know, you're, it's almost as if everything you work towards kind of gets pulled away from you. And you're, you're, everyone assumes that all of your priorities are completely different and there's opportunities that are kept out of your reach. It's like, it's a whole, it can be very difficult to maneuver just from a logistical perspective as women are the ones bearing the children.

• 1:17:42Chris Williamson?

  I had a great conversation about dad brain, but also mum brain came up too. And the fact that if you have a kid as a mother, 2.5% gray matter loss-ish. Like, that really does not, basically anything that requires executive function that is not your child gets pruned a little bit.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:02Chris Williamson?

  And that means, yeah, if you were the EA to some high powered CEO and you were basically running his entire life, or you're the chief of staff, right? And you before were just this absolute military killer. You could go, you knew exactly what was going on at all times. And now it feels like there's fluff in your brain. You go, huh. I, again, this is another situation where I think compatibility. And one thing that would be cool, I know that other people, this isn't my idea, but suggesting that mothers look at transitioning careers to things that utilize this new skillset, not to see it as a weakness, right? Not to go, I want to be the person that I was when I was 25 and I had literally a different brain

• 1:18:44Chris Williamson?

  and different priorities and a different stage of life, as opposed to going, huh, I've just unlocked this entire new world. Maybe becoming a therapist would be like a really incredible opportunity for me to focus this brand new level of empathy. That would be, that'd be great.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Flip side.

• 1:19:00Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  Flip side is have those environments accommodate those changes. Understand that those, those changes are happening to women and that, you know, priorities shift. And instead of putting them in the same roles, pivot their roles so they can utilize some of those skills that they have.

• 1:19:16Chris Williamson?

  I, so same sort of thing, but inside of the same company, I think that's a great idea. I get the sense, and this is a culture and narrative change that would need to be made. I get the sense that a lot of women would feel that as being, if it was imposed on them, I'm less than now, or you're saying that I can't do what I used to do. And in some ways, what you're trying to open up is, no, I'm saying that you're better at doing other things that you couldn't do previously. So there's two ways to look at it, right? What have I lost, what have I gained?

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:45Chris Williamson?

  And we're saying, this is something you've gained. Why don't we utilize this new skill? As opposed to this is something you've lost. Why don't we get you away from using that old skill? And just the framing, but I, I don't.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Framing and the volitional component, like if, if, if the woman felt like, you know what? This is where I could spend more time and I could utilize these skillsets a little bit better. Like, I think, I think at the end of the day should be kind of her choice and her, her pushing that kind of decision.

• 1:20:15Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, I agree. Creating the culture that makes that not feel like just chalking up an L.

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:21Chris Williamson?

  Is, that is where an external influence can adapt like an internal desire. You know, oh, the way that this is framed externally, what society says I should be doing.

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:35Chris Williamson?

  Actually makes me feel more or less comfortable with doing it. And I think, you know, the ruthless part of this, and this is for every woman that runs a career, let alone every man. It's like, the market doesn't give a fuck.

• 1:20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:47Chris Williamson?

  And ultimately businesses need to run businesses that are profitable and are growing. And that is where, again, finding that line between validation and when do you push, when do you pivot? At some point there has to be, and this is the same thing is true for guys. The same thing is true for, like, you can't be, if your testosterone is dropping and if you're not quite as mentally quick, at 65, you're probably not going to be the same killer salesman that you were at 28.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  True.

• 1:21:19Chris Williamson?

  This is, the market doesn't care. I'm sorry, like you've come up and you've shown all of it. But anyway, here's how I've, like, thinking about this whole conversation and thinking about your book. Sensitivity is the input and emotional intelligence is the output. Feels like the equation that we're playing with. Is that a fair assessment? Yeah.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:39Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:41Chris Williamson?

  And that gives people certain advantages and it gives people certain challenges as well.

• 1:21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think emotional sensitivity as a whole, I think it's something that can be difficult and it can be wonderful. And it's just, I, I know, like, as a person who's gone through this and as a physician who's gone through medical school and psychiatry training and all this, this was never taught. People aren't taught about how to actually, in a very real and tangible way, deal with their emotions. And I think that emotional stuff, like when you're looking at, because a lot of my research is on ADHD. You're looking at ADHD, like a lot of that, like executive function and all that stuff. Like, to some degree, you can, you can find a hack or you can delegate or you could do that. You can't do that with emotions.

• 1:22:28Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that just in you, and you can't show them to anybody else.

• 1:22:31Speaker 01

  No, you can't, like, you have to be able to process and get through on the other side. So if you are completely consumed by them, or if you're having a hard time regulating them, I mean, you're not going to be able to think, you're not going to be able to move on from that moment. It takes so much brain space. And so that's, that's one of the things that I hope that this book will help give people a little bit more agency over their emotions.

• 1:22:56Chris Williamson?

  If there's someone that feels like they're in the world and it's too spiky for their emotions, what would you want them to take away? What would you want to tell them?

• 1:23:06Speaker 01

  They just don't have the tools yet. Just like, it, it, life is hard. This world is hard. And I think being emotionally sensitive, it, for so many of us is a beautiful thing, is a beautiful thing. It's just, it's sometimes really difficult to keep your head above water when emotions are big. And so having those tools and being able to grab hold of them and use them in appropriate times is life changing.

• 1:23:35Chris Williamson?

  Talk to Sasha Hamdani, ladies and gentlemen. You're great. I appreciate you going into the murky depths of people with way too many emotions.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Chris Williamson?

  Why should people go to check out everything you've got going on?

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  So I'm on Instagram, I'm on TikTok, I'm on YouTube and it's the Psych Doctor MD.

• 1:23:50Chris Williamson?

  And the new book.

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  And the new book, Too Sensitive, which is out, um, August 25th.

• 1:23:56Chris Williamson?

  Heck yeah, appreciate you. All right, goodbye my beauties.

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Yay, we did it.

• 1:24:02Speaker 03

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