Female Psychopath Explains How She Manipulates Men - Kanika Batra - #1142

Kanika Batra is an Australian content creator and author. What goes on inside the mind of a sociopath? Can they feel love and empathy, or are they truly emotionless? Diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder, Kanika Batra reveals how sociopaths actually think, feel and relate to others. Expect to learn how Kanika deals with being a diagnosed sociopath, what emotions she strongly feels or is absent of, why Kanika loves revenge, what friendships are like for sociopaths, the best pieces of advice for women in the dating world, if psychopaths can ever feel true love, if sociopaths ever wish to feel normal and care for people and much more... Sponsors: See discounts for all the products I use and recommend: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/deals⁠ Get 160+ lab tests for just $365 and save an extra $25 at https://functionhealth.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and your first month for free at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom Get 10% discount on all Gymshark products at https://gym.sh/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM10) Sign up for a free trial from Shopify at https://shopify.com/modernwisdom Get ChatGPT to explore ideas, solve problems, and learn faster at ⁠https://chatgpt.com Timestamps: (00:00) Should We Trust the Word of a Sociopath? (01:00) Is Sociopathy Actually Real? (04:07) What is Antisocial Personality Disorder? (04:45) When Kanika Realised She Was Different (08:38) Are Sociopaths Born Or Made? (09:39) Does Mental Illness Run in Families? (14:12) How Kanika Reached Her Diagnosis (20:01) Do Sociopaths Actually Feel Emotions? (26:54) Why Kanika Turned to Christianity (31:24) How Far Would a Sociopath Go for Revenge? (35:19) Are Sociopaths Obsessed With Status? (37:52) Has Kanika Ever Wanted to Kill Someone? (46:58) Why is Kanika Fascinated By Rodney Alcala? (49:24) What Is It Like Dating a Sociopath? (55:44) Why Kanika Struggles With Male Power (01:00:30) Is This the Best Dating Advice For Women? (01:06:05) How Kanika Met Her Husband (01:13:14) Should Women Follow Manipulative Dating Advice? (01:22:55) How Does a Sociopath Handle a Breakup? (01:25:51) Should You Ever Date a Sociopath? (01:27:35) Do Men Find Manipulation Attractive? (01:31:32) Do Sociopaths Understand Themselves? (01:33:48) How to Detect a Sociopath (01:35:39) The World’s Most Famous Sociopaths (01:38:43) The Link Between Sociopathy and Sadism (01:43:32) Does Kanika Wish She Had “Normal” Emotions? (01:53:02) What’s Next For Kanika? Extra Stuff: Get my free reading list of 100 books to read before you die: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/books⁠ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic: ⁠https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom⁠ Episodes You Might Enjoy: #577 - David Goggins - This Is How To Master Your Life: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Goggins⁠ #712 - Dr Jordan Peterson - How To Destroy Your Negative Beliefs: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Peterson⁠ #700 - Dr Andrew Huberman - The Secret Tools To Hack Your Brain: ⁠lnkfi.re/SN-Huberman⁠ - Get In Touch: Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx⁠ Twitter: ⁠https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx⁠ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/modernwisdompodcast⁠ Email: ⁠https://chriswillx.com/contact⁠ - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  You're a diagnosed sociopath. You also say that you're the most manipulative person I'll ever meet. And that you can lie better than anybody. Why should I believe anything that you're about to tell me?

• 0:11Speaker 01

  Well, I don't have a lot to lose by lying. People know who I am. People know that I can manipulate in many different ways. It's just an idea of, I understand that you're a certain type of person. And I know how to work every type of person. But I can verify my diagnosis through independent sources like Business Insider.

• 0:34Chris Williamson?

  Why should I believe anything you're going to tell me over the next couple of hours? Why wouldn't you just manipulate your way through the entire conversation?

• 0:40Speaker 01

  Because I'm lifting the mask, okay? I'm lifting the mask. I did it before. I'm gonna do it again. I'm going to give you raw and unfiltered. And then you can just cut out whatever you don't like.

• 0:50Chris Williamson?

  That sounds good to me. Should I be scared of you?

• 0:52Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. I'm, I'm five foot one. What am I gonna do?

• 0:58Chris Williamson?

  That's fair, that's fair, okay. So what is Sociopathy? What's your specific diagnosis?

• 1:03Speaker 01

  So I've been diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder as well as narcissistic personality disorder. And I fit the profile my psychiatrist says of a factor one psychopath. Because psychopathy actually comes from narcissism. So the glibness, the superficial charm, the ability to essentially go from one job to another, being able to pathologically lie, all of those, and being very grandiose. They're all very narcissistic traits. So that's where psychopath, like psychopath diverges into factor one and factor two. Factor one is primary psychopathy. So that's basically your engine running. Factor two is you're causing a lot of problems to society.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  It's like the more antisocial norm behavior. So it's like, you know, being a truant, stealing, lying to people, committing crimes that would put you in prison. All of the reckless stuff that we tend to do. So I lean more onto the factor one because I've had a brain scan and my amygdala does not light up. It just doesn't. So I, I know what people are feeling. I just will never feel it. And I know how to mimic an accurate response, something that they would want to see. Like if someone's just died, right? My friend died last week. I just, I can cry on command. So I can just go to the funeral and cry.

• 2:31Chris Williamson?

  You seem distraught about it.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  I am. I only knew her for about four years.

• 2:38Chris Williamson?

  That's kind of long for a lot of people. Friendships, longish. Okay, talk to me about the DSM. Sociopath isn't a diagnosis. It's more a colloquial term for antisocial personality disorder.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  I wanted to explain that because everyone keeps getting at me like sociopath isn't a real thing. Or I thought you were sociopath and now you're saying psychopath. Okay, so antisocial personality disorder is one of the bases of psychopathy factor one and factor two. So factor one completely lacks anxiety and has no fear response, which is me. Factor two is they do get a lot of anxiety. They get very violent. They're very aggressive. They do not have a conscience. They are unable to feel guilt for anything that they've done. But they are hot tempered, whereas I'm cold essentially. I can plan over months and months if I'm trying to achieve something. They, if you said for factor two, if you just say something that they find offensive, they will blow up. They will.

• 3:37Chris Williamson?

  More impulsive.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, way more impulsive, way more chaotic, more likely to go to prison.

• 3:43Chris Williamson?

  Interesting. More dangerous or less dangerous?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  It depends, because a factor one psychopath, let's say, I don't know, a good representation would be Hannibal Lecter. Like he, he, I think he's a bit of a threat, but then.

• 3:59Chris Williamson?

  Sort of more chilling than terrifying?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So factor one is chilling. Factor two is this guy's gonna set me on fire right now.

• 4:07Chris Williamson?

  What about the antisocial personality disorder? What's that consist of?

• 4:09Speaker 01

  Antisocial, it, the basic traits that you need is like a lack of remorse, lack of guilt, lack of empathy.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Being, having antisocial crimes, so antisocial norms. So this can include hurting animals, hurting children, hurting other people around you. That's sort of, those are sort of the hallmarks of antisocial personality. And then when you combine antisocial and narcissistic and put them together, you get either a malignant narcissist or the kind of psychopath that will absolutely ruin your life.

• 4:44Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. What was childhood like for you?

• 4:49Speaker 01

  Uh, it was fine. Uh, I used to witness a lot of domestic violence. So, uh, my father was aggressive towards my mother and my brother. I was never treated badly by my dad. He bought me anything I wanted. He essentially never said no to me. Like we had just flown to Australia from New Zealand and I was five or so. And I said I wanted a specific Barbie doll. And he walked three kilometers to go get it, even though he was jet lagged, you know, it was like, because we had to pack up all our stuff and move. And so that was something that I had. Um, my mom would beat the shit out of me though, because.

• 5:27Chris Williamson?

  So dad beat mom and mom beat you?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Yes, but I didn't mind because it's like, that's the kind of discipline that I think I needed. Because I was a menace. I was an absolute menace. I was a truant. I used to lie, I used to steal. I used to physically harm people. Um, I used to harm other children as well, mostly my age. Like I pushed a girl down the stairs and she broke her leg in three different places. Um, and then I got her suspended because I said that she made a racist claim, which she, she didn't. But she, she was, uh, the kind of person who you could believe would say something like that. So, um.

• 6:06Chris Williamson?

  How old were you?

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Fourteen. Yeah, so pretty early on I had conduct disorder and I had callous and emotional traits. Um, that, I guess that's why I got the antisocial personality disorder. It kind of is a precursor to that. Um, but I would say in terms of the rest of my childhood, I also had thalassemia. So it's a blood disorder where my bone marrow can't produce its own red blood cells. So I have to get transfusions every three to four weeks. And so because of that, I got so much attention constantly. Like people were always around me, making me, making sure that I was feeling good, you know, not sick.

• 6:46Chris Williamson?

  Kind of center of attention. Not necessarily for a reason that you want, but you still do get a lot of attention.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  And then also because of that, um, also on top of that, I should say, is I did child modeling. So I got a lot of validation from there too. So I always got validation from everyone around me, just not for the things, but it was always for the things that I do, not me as a human. So I feel like that kind of shaped how I saw things and how I made everything very transactional.

• 7:17Chris Williamson?

  What, when did you realize that you were different?

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Probably four or five.

• 7:23Chris Williamson?

  What did that look like?

• 7:24Speaker 01

  It was just that I couldn't understand why people looked so happy and how they could be friends with each other. And they didn't really do anything. Like I, I couldn't understand what was so attractive about a person and wanting to be their friend. I was, I was sort of forced to deal with other people. Like at my, I think it was my fourth birthday or my third birthday. Um, I had a friend who was a really fat girl. And I told my mom, like, do not let her ride my new Barbie bike. And she's too fat and it will break. And she let her use the Barbie bike and it broke. So I'm just saying, but outside of that, I was like, how are people, like, how do people react like normally to things? How, like, what's wrong with me?

• 8:05Speaker 01

  It just, it started to crystallize more around like, I think, ten, eleven. It just felt like there's like this glass between, a, a wall of glass between me and other people. That I can watch you, I can observe you, I can study what you do, I can see what's successful about you. And I will emulate that, but I will never feel it. Like I will never understand what proper, I guess, guilt feels like. I won't feel what remorse feels like. I, I don't, I've never had anxiety a day in my life.

• 8:39Chris Williamson?

  What have you come to believe about whether sociopaths are born or made?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  So I believe that factor one psychopaths are actually born. And factor two psychopaths, I know they tend to say factor one is psychopath, factor two is sociopath, but that's inaccurate. Termining for factor two, I would say that's being made, you're being made.

• 9:02Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  Because that's after an abuse, uh, it's usually during an abusive home life. So they experience all of the, like, the volatility, they experience domestic violence. They see that this is the way to get power in life is to have physical strength and full control over another person. And it's, it's, it's so overwhelming for them and they turn to violent crimes because of that. And I think with both of us, like both factor one, both factor two, they, we have equal levels of loneliness. So we sort of channel it a little bit differently to them.

• 9:39Chris Williamson?

  Is there a history of mental illness or anything in your family?

• 9:43Speaker 01

  I would say my paternal side is extremely psychopathic. I know on my mum's side, there's one person who.

• 9:49Chris Williamson?

  Is there anyone worse than you?

• 9:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, okay, so this is a pretty dark story, but, okay, so my aunt, when she was seventeen, she had premarital sex with a guy who promised to marry her. And then he refused to marry her and because she'd been tarnished, uh, they weren't very happy with her in the family. So she was found burned on a stove. She had third degree burns all over her body. And she asked for a red sari to be buried, like not buried, but in, when she was in the hospital fighting for her life. She asked for a red sari because she believed like she was gonna get to marry the guy that she.

• 10:31Chris Williamson?

  What, a red sari, sorry?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  So you'd wear that, you're wedding, you know, a sari, like the Indian, yeah. And so, yeah, she asked for that. And I asked my dad, like, cause I didn't even know this happened because.

• 10:41Chris Williamson?

  Burnt on a stove?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, her head was put on the stove and then they put kerosene on her as well for the rest.

• 10:47Chris Williamson?

  Who did?

• 10:49Speaker 01

  My grandfather.

• 10:51Chris Williamson?

  Because she'd had sex?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:52Chris Williamson?

  Before marriage?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Refused to marry her, yeah. So she's tarnished.

• 10:57Chris Williamson?

  Did she survive?

• 10:58Speaker 01

  No, she's dead. I didn't know she existed. Like, I saw a photo of four little kids in my dad's, like, there's like this old box that he has. And I was like, okay, but you have two siblings. Who are these other ones? Like, which one's you? He's like, no, that's Raju and that's Baby. And Baby was the one who was killed and she was only seventeen. Raju died from, I think, some sort of kidney problem.

• 11:20Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Okay, yeah, that might be a little bit of a history.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then on my mum's side, this one's crazy. So my uncle, he got married five times, different women, swindled all of them, took all of their money, took all of their happiness and sanity. And then he ended up, um, selling my grandparents' home, which is worth a lot, a lot, to, um, three different people. So he took the money from three different people and he fled to America. So if he ever goes back onto Indian soil, he will be arrested.

• 12:00Chris Williamson?

  Five women swindled all of them, sold the house.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, and now he's married to his childhood sweetheart.

• 12:08Chris Williamson?

  Look, you can have a happy ending, apparently, after all of that. Uh,

• 12:13Chris Williamson?

  what, what do you think it was like for your parents growing up with you?

• 12:19Speaker 01

  My mum used to call me Shetan, which is Satan in Hindi.

• 12:23Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, um.

• 12:25Chris Williamson?

  Everyone's gonna have a cute nickname, I suppose.

• 12:30Speaker 01

  I guess, yeah. Um, yeah, so she, she called me Shetan. They had problems with me early on because I was like attacking other children. And so they were like, oh, what's wrong with you? And I'm like, I don't know. If I knew, I wouldn't be in this position.

• 12:48Chris Williamson?

  What did that look like?

• 12:49Speaker 01

  It was just, I guess, because I've, I've hurt other children, so I've, it's not always like something you can discuss, but I would say it's more like, apart from pushing the girl down the stairs, like I burnt people, like I've done some things. And my parents had to cover for me a lot. So that was a problem. But because I did so well academically, the teachers would always side with me. Everything was like, kind of copacetic for me. And, yeah, but my mum used to call me Satan. Uh, my dad said, my dad calls me Guriya, which means little doll.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  And, uh, so I got like unending affection from my dad because my first word was Papa. And, yeah.

• 13:36Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 13:37Speaker 01

  So.

• 13:37Chris Williamson?

  Do you think that there's something around the tension between dad seemingly being, coddling and enabling and mum being the disciplinarian that created a bit more tension?

• 13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say so because anytime I would cry or cause like any stress in the family, my dad would always, always take my side and that would mean that he'd have a fight with my mum. And so I, I guess I weaponized that a lot.

• 14:03Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 14:04Speaker 01

  So it kind of created a triangulation that I didn't know was a thing back then, because like, I'm like, I don't know, seven, eight, nine.

• 14:12Chris Williamson?

  When did this get most extreme or intense? Because, I don't know. You haven't walked in here, at least yet, you haven't attacked anybody or burnt anyone or, you know.

• 14:24Chris Williamson?

  The, it seems to me, you're now married, you've got a husband who, who's come with you. That seems relatively domesticated compared with the person that we're hearing about from childhood.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:37Chris Williamson?

  If you're sort of tracking over time, when the most intensity of this.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Rage.

• 14:45Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, talk me, talk me through the, the timeline of sort of where that got to and where it fell off.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So I would say the worst burst was in my teenage to early twenties. So I stole from people, including my parents. I was very violent in my high school. I would cause like, uh, not only physical damage, like I used to push this girl off her stool every morning. And the stools were pretty high. They're up like here in the science lab. And so I would knock her down every single day and her legs were super bruised. Um, I would also end up like, I, I guess sabotaging friends who I thought were getting more, success than me, or I'd get very, very angry if someone said that I wasn't as intelligent as I knew I was because of my scores. So that would result in like fistfights and pulling people's hair out.

• 15:35Chris Williamson?

  But as you've said, you're five foot one.

• 15:37Speaker 01

  I know, but.

• 15:37Chris Williamson?

  And would have been smaller back then.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Back then, no, I've been five foot one since I was like twelve.

• 15:41Chris Williamson?

  Okay, all right, cool, yeah, so.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but luckily, uh, other women are easily, like, other female children are easy to neutralize when you, you know what to go for. If you go for the eyes, if you go for the throat, if you go to certain areas of the body. It's like, no matter what your size is.

• 15:57Chris Williamson?

  You sound like the New, the New Zealand Bas Rutan, if you know who that is, the guy from the fucking UFC.

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 16:02Chris Williamson?

  Go on.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's brilliant. Um, so that was bad. But then in my early twenties, it was like fraud. I would steal people's credit cards. I would go like have a competition with my friend who I believe also has antisocial personality, to see what we could take from different stores. Um, and there was actually a fair bit, there was, I was pretty awful to people, like I would break up with them on their birthdays. Um, create, uh, like create drama in terms of smearing their character because I know how to do that very well. But because I was like sort of shifting a little bit because I was seeing a psychiatrist. So when I got diagnosed, like, do you want to know about that?

• 16:47Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Okay, so I got diagnosed at twenty one and this was after I tried to kill myself. Because I tried to kill myself because I was getting migraines every day. And I was thinking, I don't want to live with this kind of pain daily. So, and the doctors weren't taking me seriously. My GP told me to stop calling. My neurologist said it wasn't a big deal. And I'm like, yeah, it's not a big deal for you, bro. You're not dealing with it. And so I was like, okay, fuck it, I'm going. So I took the pills, woke up in hospital, realised I'd failed. Um, disappointed about that.

• 17:17Chris Williamson?

  What did you do? What did you try and do?

• 17:19Speaker 01

  I took fifteen endet pills, so fifteen amitriptylines, which really is actually lethal. So I don't know what happened. Um, and so I woke up and they said, do you want to be in a, in an inpatient facility or do you want to go outpatient? And I was like, yeah, outpatient, I'm not going to live in that house, I'm sorry. And so when I went, I was evaluated for over sixteen months by a forensic psychiatrist. I've actually been on TV with him. Um, and he told me that I had antisocial personality disorder. He told me I had narcissistic personality disorder. He would talk about ways, because, oh yes, I forgot to say, he also worked in prisons. So he would try to discourage me from criminal activity because he would tell me specific stories about the women

• 18:04Speaker 01

  that, and what they get treated like in there, in that prison. So he's like, you will, he didn't try to do it from a moralistic place. He did it from, you're gonna suffer, you're gonna.

• 18:14Chris Williamson?

  For a utilitarian.

• 18:16Speaker 01

  Yes, utilitarian, that's exactly the word. That's exactly how he talked to me. And, like, talking to him probably made me a bit more glib, a bit better at like creating charm.

• 18:28Speaker 01

  Because he would teach me ways of talking to people that were kind of new to me. So I would weaponize that sort of language and mimic sort of, I'm very good at mimicking people. So I'm good at mirroring, I'm good at giving the right responses. And he kind of taught me some of the right responses that I didn't already know.

• 18:44Chris Williamson?

  So what he's trying to do is explain to you the situation, explain your diagnosis to this person who's twenty one years old and has been dealing with this for as long as she can remember. But what he's actually doing is laying out a blueprint of how other people operate.

• 18:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 18:58Chris Williamson?

  Which you then take and use.

• 19:00Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 19:00Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 19:01Speaker 01

  And use specific language to do it. So that was really helpful.

• 19:05Chris Williamson?

  What like, what's specific language?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  So, you know, if someone's going through something, like you're going through some severe pain in your life. Just being able to say, I understand what you're doing. I like, I feel it really badly. I can't believe this is happening to you. You mean so much to me.

• 19:23Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  And then just the tears. And yeah.

• 19:26Chris Williamson?

  Interesting.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  That would be generally what I do.

• 19:28Chris Williamson?

  The idea of a P zombie, have you heard of this?

• 19:31Speaker 01

  No, I haven't.

• 19:31Chris Williamson?

  Philosophical zombie. So it's a thought experiment. I think people kind of accuse A I of being this too. It's able to do all of the things. Imagine you had a human that looks like a human, walks and talks like a human. And makes all of the actions and responds that way, but there's nothing, there's no motivation going in inside.

• 19:49Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 19:49Chris Williamson?

  That's not quite the same, because there are motivations, it's just the reason for the motivations are more contrived.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:55Chris Williamson?

  With you, but it is kind of P zombie adjacent.

• 19:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit. That actually makes sense.

• 20:01Chris Williamson?

  Uh, okay. What emotions do you feel?

• 20:04Speaker 01

  I feel all emotions, except for like, I don't think empathy counts as an emotion. So I would say the fleeting emotions are like joy, happiness, being proud of myself. Um, anything positive is very long, a lot. Anything positive is very short-lived.

• 20:21Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Everything negative, like rage, like uh contempt, uh anything along the lines of anger that stays for a while.

• 20:32Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Which is really frustrating because it's like, why couldn't you give me more of the good stuff? Like, why am I feeling the bad stuff?

• 20:38Chris Williamson?

  Why is there not psychopathy for positive emotions?

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it's the.

• 20:42Chris Williamson?

  People walking around in bliss all the time, remembering all the nice things that have happened to them.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the problem is, it's like two different areas of the brain. So one is like, yeah, you should feel shit all the time. And one's like, I'll give you five seconds of like a good time today. And it's like, why are you doing this to me?

• 20:58Chris Williamson?

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• 21:42Chris Williamson?

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• 22:01Speaker 01

  Unfortunately, yeah.

• 22:03Chris Williamson?

  And not just, it sounds not so much, i- is it depressive negative or like active negative?

• 22:09Speaker 01

  No, so my, I do like experience depression, if you will, but for me, it's no profound sadness. It's a completely flat feeling of having nothing. And you just consume so much time, like volumes of time, and you don't even know what you've done with it. And so it's like, you kind of just flounder. And that lasts for a while, unfortunately.

• 22:29Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 22:30Speaker 01

  So I really don't like that. I can't handle boredom at all.

• 22:34Chris Williamson?

  You said you don't think that empathy is an emotion.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  No.

• 22:36Chris Williamson?

  But something like uh guilt, I think would would almost certainly, I think almost certainly guilt has to be. Guilt is, the reason that guilt exists is to identify, it's a self-identifier from your system to tell you that there is an imbalance in the ledger between you and something else or somebody else, that I have taken too much from this situation. You could imagine why in a tribe this would be needed, that you need to ensure that everybody else sees you in a positive manner. And if you're the person that's always taking from the food and never giving it, you should feel guilt because it's an early warning sign that, hey, other people are not going to like you at some point in future. Which is where the transactional stuff comes from, but for you, guilt.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  So interesting. I actually didn't know that. So the way I see guilt as a social, it's a social conditioning emotion that is generally useless. Because what can I do about things I've done twenty years ago? Like, am I gonna go say sorry and just gonna fix it? No, it's not.

• 23:38Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  I guess that's why I burnt a lot of bridges, but it's, it's just something that I don't feel. It's like, I live in the present. If it's not in the present, it doesn't matter.

• 23:47Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Well, you say that you live in the present, but a lot of time is being spent maybe planning and concocting ways to get back at people. That's living in the future to a degree.

• 23:59Speaker 01

  That is, yeah. Okay. So I've been asked that before. So basically what I do is like i- in my everyday life, I have, you know, interactions with people on a daily basis. Like I, I coach a lot of people. They want to be ruthless, so they somehow come to me. And um so they come to me and they're like, will make me less emotional. So at that time, I'm telling them exactly how I feel and what I do. But in terms of if someone has wronged me, that stays lodged in my head until it is taken care of. So there was a group of twelve hundred women on Reddit who were posting images of my they said I should get raped again. They gave my address to the

• 24:41Speaker 01

  they would comment on every single thing that was wrong with me about my appearance, which was wild stuff. So when I found out certain people were in that group, I realized that justice needs to be served. So I intend to ruin one of their birthdays every single year. So far, I've ruined three years.

• 25:01Chris Williamson?

  What have you done?

• 25:02Speaker 01

  I sent a pig's head to her door. I sent the police for a welfare check. I sent a mariachi band to come at six A M. I sent the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I will next time be sending the Mormons.

• 25:16Chris Williamson?

  Well, that's the worst one of all, by far. Um.

• 25:20Speaker 01

  She was shocked by the pig on that. I'm not gonna lie.

• 25:22Chris Williamson?

  You've said that you.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Oh, oh, sorry. And, and I don't know if you've watched The Help, but Minnie makes a sec- like a very specific pie for her old boss. And let's just say there's fecal matter in there. Luckily, it was outsourced because I couldn't do something like that, but that was delivered to her house and I hope she ate it.

• 25:45Chris Williamson?

  And this is one person?

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:47Chris Williamson?

  And this was the leader of this?

• 25:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:49Chris Williamson?

  Reddit group?

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:50Chris Williamson?

  That was, that you say was a

• 25:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:51Chris Williamson?

  attack on you of some kind.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 25:53Chris Williamson?

  What was their issue with you?

• 25:55Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it was just, I don't know, there was leaked uh video or some, not video, audio, and it wasn't legitimate. It was like just a string of my words put together from different clips. And they're like, oh, she's such a bigot. Oh, she's such a, you know, piece of shit, all of that stuff.

• 26:12Chris Williamson?

  Were they accusing you of having sex?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Racism.

• 26:13Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:14Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  So, and I was like.

• 26:16Chris Williamson?

  And what's your heritage? Indian?

• 26:17Speaker 01

  Indian.

• 26:18Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like, I didn't say that. Like, I've never said that.

• 26:22Chris Williamson?

  Interesting.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then also because Sam had made some posts on Twitter.

• 26:26Chris Williamson?

  This is your husband?

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:27Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  He made posts on Twitter about um Virginia Giuffre. And he was just making, showing some.

• 26:34Chris Williamson?

  Jeffrey Epstein person.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:35Chris Williamson?

  Yep.

• 26:35Speaker 01

  So he was showing some inconsistencies in the stories or, and then they blamed me for that. So I was meant to be like the fall guy or something. I don't know. Like they decided I was the proxy, I would be attacked constantly.

• 26:49Chris Williamson?

  Hmm.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Are they still around? I mean, we got the Reddit thing taken down, which is great, but.

• 26:54Chris Williamson?

  What else from an emotion standpoint is, is interesting? I'm aware that a lot of this to you must be.

• 27:03Chris Williamson?

  Like me talking about what it's like to be Harry Potter, the wizard, that it's very hypothetical. Right. But I imagine that you've spent a good bit of time thinking about, not just so that you can manipulate other people, but so that you can function in the world, at least remotely well. What the difference is between your experience and other people's. How else? What are the other big differences you think between sort of how you go through a day in terms of feeling things? Yeah, emotions, operating.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  So most things I don't feel very heavily. So if something happens and it's a great thing, like, I don't know, doing a podcast with you. I'll be like afterwards, damn, that was fun. Or like, damn, that's gonna be cool when it comes out. They'll last for about 20 minutes. And then I'll see someone like say something annoying on Instagram and I'll be like, should this person get attacked later or not? And then I'll sort of go through that. But recently I've found Christianity through Charlie Kirk. And that has radically changed a lot of what I do. So yeah, people don't really like hearing about religion or politics. And I'm a conservative who has a lifelong conservative.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  And I love Charlie Kirk and that kind of, they don't like religion either.

• 28:20Chris Williamson?

  What was that brought on by?

• 28:21Speaker 01

  So when he passed, I, I loved Charlie Kirk so much.

• 28:25Chris Williamson?

  Prior to him passing?

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved him so much. Like I loved everything he said. I loved how kind he was. I loved how he was. He was like the true beacon of masculinity, if there ever was one.

• 28:35Chris Williamson?

  Seems surprising that you would admire somebody who's kind, given.

• 28:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's the good person that I can't be. And then when the, when he was taken from the world, I just realized there's no good in the world.

• 28:47Chris Williamson?

  What was the lesson that you took from that?

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Well, initially it was how cruel people are and like how disgusting they are. And if I as a psychopath have more morality than you, it's saying something. And so I saw these people just like mocking his death and like it became a trend on TikTok. And I was like, he was a fucking human being, bro. He was a human being. He was 31. It just really pissed me off. And so like, I actually grieved him more than I've grieved anyone in my life, including my family. Like my grandfather died in front of my eyes, not the one who burned his daughter. He died in front of my eyes when I was 10 years old. So that, no, no emotion, nothing.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  The other grand, grandparents die, no emotion. Friends die, no emotion. But like for Charlie Kirk, I was crying every single day. Made no sense.

• 29:42Chris Williamson?

  Is that strange? Is that a strange situation for you?

• 29:44Speaker 01

  It is. It's because I don't know if there's any other kind of like such strong masculinity that's not also like just nasty. You know what I mean? Like the way he would talk about women, like he would always be very gentle with women, like he wouldn't. He wouldn't yell at them. He wouldn't do anything. Like he would be calm. He would lead. He would provide. He would protect. And so, and he did it in such a way. And we did, we differ on some beliefs, but we, all of us differ on beliefs.

• 30:12Chris Williamson?

  And your conversion to Christianity has happened after Charlie's passing?

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yes. So I started feeling the urge to read the Bible again, because my parents are Christian and I purposely did not become Christian. So I read the Bible properly, like I threw a context and everything. And I found Orthodox Christianity, which has really spoken to me. And I love that it's a hospital. So they see it as a hospital and not a courtroom, which is really nice. Cause like, when you've been called a bad person your entire life, like you, you kind of want someone who's like, no, you can be.

• 30:47Chris Williamson?

  You can be redeemed?

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:48Chris Williamson?

  Do you think you're a bad person?

• 30:55Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:56Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Because I use my skills to help people. Initially I did hurt a lot of people, but eventually I built my platform. And women who, I've helped women escape domestic violence. I've helped them heal from sexual trauma. I've helped them like own their own lives. And so like, I just felt like that was a positive thing that I could do to offset the bad stuff. And.

• 31:20Chris Williamson?

  There might be a little bit of tenants to be paid, yeah, by the sounds of the first couple of decades of life. I'm interested in this pivot to Christianity a little bit because one of the core tenants of that is to turn the other cheek.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  That's what I'm having the biggest problem with.

• 31:33Chris Williamson?

  As somebody who.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  The biggest problem with.

• 31:36Chris Williamson?

  You've said that you love revenge.

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:39Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Because I believe in an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. If you are ready and willing to make me feel like shit about something, you should be prepared to feel the same back. Like recently I had some ugly girl comment on my video saying, oh, you're not 40 kilos, you're more like 62. And you're like, you're like, you're losing your attractiveness. You need a bit of rain. And I was like, listen bitch, I am like, I am 40 kilos. If you would like to watch the scale, you can. And then I was just like, if you think that you should be making commentary, I feel like you have not seen a mirror in a very, very long time. And so I have my best friends who will like go and sort of swarm as well.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  So like, if you're willing to try and like knock, knock at me because I had an eating disorder growing up. And that's also what happened in the group. They were constantly trying to call me fat so that I would go back to an eating disorder. Yeah. So fucking women, I swear to God. And so, yeah, so I'm, I'm telling her to go to the gym. Like you can see the fat rolls on her face. And shit like, I am exactly 40 kilos.

• 32:47Chris Williamson?

  What, what is the most extreme length that you've gone through to get revenge on someone?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. So there was a girl I did pageants with. So she won a pageant and she went to the international. And anyway, so she came back, we did Miss World together. And she was super arrogant and she was really, really rude. She'd get under my skin a lot. So she would say like certain races shouldn't be able to compete, certain people shouldn't be able to compete, short girls shouldn't be able to compete. And I was like, all right, this bit, it's time for this bitch to learn a lesson. So I deleted anything controversial that I said. I screen recorded the whole thing. And then I sent it to every single girl that she had insulted. I sent it to the pageant director who in immediately kicked her out of the competition because she is,

• 33:43Speaker 01

  she's a liability at that point. So they throw her out and it's her last year to actually be in pageants because she's too old. So she can't compete again. And that's what I took the most satisfaction in. If you're saying that someone like me shouldn't compete, you will never compete. And so, yeah, she, she was completely taken out. And then I decided to take it an extra level. I reached out to Miss Venezuela and Miss Venezuela has millions of people who support her. And let's, luckily this, this woman, she was awful enough to let me know that she let Miss Venezuela sleep through her alarm and missed the preliminary finals. And so I told her, I'm like, you know, she purposely didn't let you go.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  And then I think the entire country of Venezuela that is in love with pageants, turned on this girl and they were leaving so many hate comments for like months and she had to go private. And then she's, she got a lawyer and let's just say she works in retail. So it would have taken her hours and hours and hours and weeks to earn enough money to get a lawyer to send me a cease and desist letter, to which I responded lol. Because if she had actually anything against me, if she had the means to sue me, she would have done so. She wouldn't have given me a cease and desist.

• 35:04Chris Williamson?

  And this is because she said some mean words to you.

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:08Chris Williamson?

  And was making racist comments and stuff.

• 35:10Speaker 01

  That's it, yeah.

• 35:12Chris Williamson?

  You managed to set the entire country of Venezuela on.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:16Chris Williamson?

  This person?

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:17Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 35:19Chris Williamson?

  Have you been to jail?

• 35:20Speaker 01

  No, sir.

• 35:23Chris Williamson?

  Certainly some things you've done that could have got you to go to jail.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  Absolutely, absolutely. But people wouldn't believe it. Like people don't look at me. Like would, would you think that I do anything that I do? But you wouldn't. And I'm generally quite smart. Like I tested 138 and I'm never testing again in case it's lower than that. Cause I couldn't live with that shame.

• 35:43Chris Williamson?

  It seems like with a few of the things that you've brought up, I am 40 kilos, I promise. My IQ is 138. Like I don't want to test it again in case it goes back. Some sensitivity around people saying what's happening with your age, whatever. It feels like a status and renown, competence, reputation. It feels like that, that, that's a core.

• 36:13Speaker 01

  It is, it is.

• 36:13Chris Williamson?

  Part of what it is that you desire. Is that right?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I think that is what comes from the narcissism as, whereas like the ASPD or the psychopathy is more the machine in my brain that tells me to slow down and do it in a way that doesn't like blow back at me. So.

• 36:29Chris Williamson?

  Oh, so you've got, that's an interesting way to look at it. That one is a, one is an engine and the other is a brake pedal.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. That's how I see it. I hate the narcissism. I'm not gonna lie. I wish I could just be, just not worry about other people saying like, thinking that they're better than me. Like I wish I could say that. I wish I could actually be in a position where I don't care so much about looks. Intelligence, worth, status. But I feel like those are objective metrics that have been proven. Like if you're in a beauty pageant, there's certain, there's a certain level of of beauty that you've attained. If you do extremely well on your year 12 exams, which I did, then you have intelligence. If you have a, an actual quantifiable number of your IQ, that shows that you're not dumb.

• 37:17Speaker 01

  So when someone says that those things aren't true, or they'll accuse me of having a fake nose because it's small or breast implants, it's like, that's my genetic superiority. And you're trying to say that I'm a normal person who had to go pay for it. And it pisses me off so much. And that's why my psychiatrist was like, we need to detach you from these things. Because it's gonna be really, really bad when you do age. Like when, and like my, my parents look really good.

• 37:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, because it's coming.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it will be coming. But my parents.

• 37:49Chris Williamson?

  How old are you?

• 37:51Speaker 01

  I am 30.

• 37:52Chris Williamson?

  Cool. Have you ever wanted to kill anything?

• 37:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:55Chris Williamson?

  What?

• 37:56Speaker 01

  People.

• 37:57Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:59Chris Williamson?

  How'd that go?

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Um, not so well yet because I have a lot of people around me who would stop it from happening. But I would plan it over a long period of time. There are some people like in that snark group, for example.

• 38:13Chris Williamson?

  The Reddit thing.

• 38:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I would absolutely just skin them if I could, like physically myself, like Catherine Knight.

• 38:21Chris Williamson?

  Who's that?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Uh, she's an Australian woman, the first woman to get um life in prison without parole. Because she ended up, so she killed her boyfriend because he didn't want to get married. And she stabbed him like a hundred and something times, then she skinned him like a full skin suit and hung him up by the door. And then she cut off his head and, sorry, um, it was on the stove. And she cut off his like meaty parts and cooked them. And so she was gonna serve them to his children and.

• 38:58Chris Williamson?

  That weren't her children presumably.

• 38:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:00Chris Williamson?

  Right.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  And so that was, and then she took some benzos and fell asleep and tried to act like she had an overdose. But um, I feel like that's what they deserve, some of these people, for the hell that they put me through, especially because I was dying in the Maldives. Like I hadn't had a blood transfusion, my hemoglobin was so low and my oxygen saturation was like, I was like on the edge of dying. And these bitches had the audacity to be planning this, writing an open letter to Kanika Batra. If you don't do this and this and this and this, we're gonna destroy your life. We're gonna go into every part of your comment section, which they do. We're gonna like send you horrific emails. We're gonna try and make, give you bad reviews on your book.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Even though I know it's good, even though most people, I think I haven't gotten a single person saying it's bad. And so it's like, if you had that capacity to treat me that way, you don't deserve to be on this planet.

• 39:57Chris Williamson?

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• 40:38Chris Williamson?

  Plus, you get your first month for free and there's a 30 day money back guarantee. So you can buy it for free, try it for free. If you don't like it after 29 days, they just give you your money back. Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 and that 30 day free trial by going to the link in the description below or heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. It's so interesting. I'm noticing inside of me as you're talking, the balance between the emotion of wanting to give you sympathy for going through that, because that sounds horrendous, being on the edge of dying in the Maldives. And also like absolutely knowing that you didn't feel much other than the rage and the resentment and the bitterness.

• 41:23Chris Williamson?

  It's very strange. Obviously, it's because you're explaining there's so much exposition going on. I'm like,

• 41:33Chris Williamson?

  why is feeling sympathy for somebody who doesn't feel guilt, very interesting uh calculation, equation to try and do in my head. Like, I'd like, that's, that's mean and horrible for anybody to go through. But also, this person doesn't respond in the normal way to that. It's very, it's very interesting. And I'm noticing that coming up inside of me. That's cool. Okay, so you would kill somebody if you could get away with it, you think?

• 42:02Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:02Chris Williamson?

  Okay. I've heard you talk about freedom, like not wanting to risk your freedom. As a big part of this, is that the main sort of utilitarian?

• 42:13Speaker 01

  I would say so.

• 42:14Chris Williamson?

  Reason that forensics, the likelihood. So if you had the skill to do it?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, if I had the privilege of being able to do it, like Ted Bundy. I actually relate a lot to Ted Bundy, not for the killing stuff, not at all. But he had the same sort of, like, I listened to the hours and hours of him talking. And he has a lot of like word salads, but when he actually talks about his experiences, like when he, he didn't know how to talk to people and he didn't know how people would associate with each other. So he used to listen to talkback radio. So he could understand how actual conversations work and how they should be happening. Because obviously it wasn't happening naturally for him. And then he would talk about the same kind of depression that I have where

• 42:56Speaker 01

  it's not profound sadness at any point. It's just this feeling of like, I can't do anything. And it's like, you're just laying there.

• 43:04Chris Williamson?

  Flat.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Flat, just flat. There's nothing that can like lift you out of it. And so that's something I really related to.

• 43:11Chris Williamson?

  It's like depression without the sadness.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally, literally. It's depression without sadness.

• 43:16Chris Williamson?

  So

• 43:19Chris Williamson?

  what was it like when you first started listening to Ted Bundy talk?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  It was, that was the first thing. And then how he struggled to make friends because he couldn't understand why people found it off putting by the things that he was doing. Like he would set like cages, oh, he'd set up a trap in the forest. So he'd have a trap door and then there'd be like sticks and stuff holding it back. And so people would fall in and they'd hurt themselves because there'd be a bear trap. And he couldn't understand why that was bad and why people hated him for it. And I couldn't understand why people hated me for what I did. Because like, it wasn't something that I'd planned or anything. It was just something that happened. And then also the way his family would treat him, like they would call him evil when he was just a child.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  I don't think any child is inherently evil. So when like, that really hit home. The fact that he had this white girlfriend, Diane Edwards, as she's known now, um, how she dumped him. And he was just so angry about it because he had, like, he built himself up to be this person who's at university. Who, you know, has achieved a fair bit. And the revenge that he had after that, like leading her on for a whole year. And then planning a wedding. And then he just stopped writing to her completely. He stopped. He stopped communicating. She was frantic and she called him. She's like, why are you doing this?

• 44:48Speaker 01

  And he's like, I don't know what you're talking about and hung up on her and she never heard from him again. So I, I like the idea of that as revenge, but also like how he would flip flop at university. So he'd do different degrees. Like I've done that. Um, he never really held a stable job. I've held stable jobs, but it's just like, I get bored within a month or two and then I'll be gone. It's different if I had like, you know, my own show and like if I'm in conservative media, like for that, I've always been interested. And he went straight into politics. I went straight into politics. On my 16th birthday, I joined my conservative party, which is the Liberal Party in Australia.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  I joined at 16, I was VP by 19. And so he was there to rub elbows with like more, I guess, wealthy people. Whereas I just did it because I have a lot of rage and I have a lot of like ability to scheme and plan things. And so in politics, you're rewarded for that. You're rewarded for any sort of brevity you have. Like I had a friend who backstabbed his mother. I won't go into it, but he backstabbed his own mother to be in the faction. So it's like where you thrive, your sadism can thrive without you actually going to prison. And so he utilized that as well.

• 46:02Chris Williamson?

  You wrote a book that had Ted in, right?

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 46:06Chris Williamson?

  That's, it was a fiction novel thing?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  It was and a female serial killer at the same time.

• 46:13Chris Williamson?

  It certainly seems like there are some analogies between the female protagonist and yourself.

• 46:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, people keep saying that. I'm like, no, she's way better than me.

• 46:22Chris Williamson?

  You mean more proficient at what she does?

• 46:25Speaker 01

  More proficient, more attractive, like richer.

• 46:29Chris Williamson?

  Would that not be the dream?

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Ideal version of me?

• 46:32Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  No, because there's a lot of things that she does that I can't do. It's like the promiscuity. Promiscuity really disgusts me. Like it gives me a visceral reaction. I don't know why, but like if I like,

• 46:45Speaker 01

  I, it's hard to see someone as a person, like if they're, you know, doing really vulgar things. I guess because I grew up in such a conservative home that like that self-esteem is very generous.

• 46:58Chris Williamson?

  I've got a video that I want you to react to.

• 47:01Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 47:02Chris Williamson?

  Let's get this up, Mark.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Rodney Alcala.

• 47:06Chris Williamson?

  Don't say it like that.

• 47:07Speaker 02

  It may be the creepiest episode ever on the dating game because this bachelor looking for love back in 1978 is actually a serial killer.

• 47:16Speaker 03

  I'm called the banana and I look really good.

• 47:21Speaker 02

  No one had any idea that Rodney Alcala had already launched his killing spree when he appeared on the popular dating show.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  He was a real creepy guy, a real idiot.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Jed Mills was bachelor number two, and nearly 40 years later, he's still haunted by their encounter.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  This creep comes up and he puts his face practically in my face and he says, I always get the girl. When I think about what he said, I always get my girl. He kills him. That's what he's talking about.

• 47:50Speaker 05

  What's your best time?

• 47:54Speaker 03

  The best time is at night, nighttime.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Despite Alcala's weird behavior on the dating game, the bachelorette chose him, but never went on the date because she reportedly found him creepy. And lucky for her, because Alcala would later be found guilty of seven murders. Investigators believe he may have actually killed up to 130 victims based on photos found on his property.

• 48:20Chris Williamson?

  Why did you respond that way when you saw him?

• 48:22Speaker 01

  Uh, he's just someone I find really fascinating because um, I was actually watching a documentary on him probably about a year ago. And it was actually crazy how much he managed to get away with. Also, his eyes are so demonic. Like you can just see in them, there's nothing behind there. There's no soul in that at all. And you can see his contempt towards women. And if you'll notice, there's no Duchenne smile, like.

• 48:47Chris Williamson?

  What's that?

• 48:48Speaker 01

  So when it's a genuine smile, you'll see it up here as well. Like there'll be crinkles. They're like, his stays entirely here. And so he's not being genuine at all. Like if you look at his eyes.

• 48:59Chris Williamson?

  Oh, wow.

• 49:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's nothing there. And if you actually muted the video and played it, you can see the micro expressions on his face that he, he's getting like that delight from duping somebody.

• 49:11Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. So the, your ability to.

• 49:18Chris Williamson?

  Convince somebody of something that you're not, that is itself rewarding.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  I would say so, yeah.

• 49:24Chris Williamson?

  What's your dating history like?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Always a serial monogamist. So I don't get into, like, I don't think that sexual activity or anything of that sort should be outside of a serious relationship, ideally marriage, but a serious relationship will do in this society. Um, and so because of that, I primarily date, uh, cause I am bisexual. But I would sort of have a, a number of different people that I would go on dates with and I would selectively cut them off. Like basically I would trim it down till I had the person I wanted.

• 50:01Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  And then with them, like, you know, it's, it's fantastic to have somebody, but I could never really lift the mask for any of them. Cause like, I couldn't be fully myself and it's very tiring when you have to wear this mask constantly. And you know that there's going to be consequences if you don't.

• 50:21Chris Williamson?

  What does not wearing the mask look like in a relationship?

• 50:25Speaker 01

  I, it can get pretty ugly. Um, I, I do still get a lot of rage. And while I'm better at handling it, I get very, very frustrated at people around me for like not doing the right thing. And backing me up immediately or doing things like that. Um, I can't tell them honestly about things that I've done. Because it's just, it, it's too much to fathom. Like there's this, um, there's an article that I mention a lot, the hidden suffering of the psychopath. And it shows how lonely psychopaths get, even if they're dating multiple people, like they're like even say Ted. That's, that's why they believe that, you know, they believe that psychopaths can feel grief and love and whatnot.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  And so the problem is, is that loneliness and that wedge between you and other people can turn you into someone who commits violence. And for me, that wasn't what I, what turned me, but I knew I couldn't really like show people how I am outside of like the social things that they experience me at. Like they don't, um, like everyone's always like, you don't seem like a psychopath and you don't seem like you have this and this and this. And it's like, well, if I told you what I actually thought, you'd probably think differently. So that's sort of the issue I have. And also like, I get very, very tired of people. Like if they're too high maintenance and I like, they're constantly texting, constantly calling.

• 51:53Speaker 01

  It's like, why don't you get another job? Because if you were like, you have so much time on your hands and you want to chat on the phone all day, like I have things to do. So it's like the, the clinginess I can't deal with, but then again, nonchalant, I can't really deal with either. It kind of has to be this happy balance and trust me, it was very hard to find that.

• 52:14Chris Williamson?

  I've heard that you say you have pure contempt for most partners after three months.

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:18Chris Williamson?

  What was happening there?

• 52:19Speaker 01

  I think I would start to see them as the real person that they were instead of the fantasy that I projected onto them. And like, I tend to put people on a pedestal sometimes. And I also actually really love giving gifts and I love love bombing. I do it naturally. It's not, it's not necessarily planned. So I love doing all of that. And then they get hooked on it. And then they start getting really, really obsessive. They'll be like, oh, okay. Why aren't you calling me more? Oh, you're seeing other people. You must be seeing other people. And so there's this like contempt, like I have to handle this creature. I have to like care about it and do good things for it. And it's like, it just becomes like pros versus cons.

• 53:00Chris Williamson?

  Well, you want to do it on your terms because you want to love bomb them when you want to love bomb them.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly.

• 53:06Chris Williamson?

  But you don't want to do it when they want it?

• 53:09Speaker 01

  No, no, it's, that's partially, I would say it, but also, also I would say that it's just overwhelming. Because my internal system is flat. It's completely flat. Whereas people's spikes and it drops. And it's like, I, I don't have time for that. I don't want to deal with that. That's also why I would never actually um, date or truly be friends with someone with borderline personality disorder, because there are pen and many issues or something severe. Like I had one who would text me literally like five times an hour. Who, because I wasn't responding or my tone seemed wrong. And it's just like, ah, like I have important things to do. Like she was threatening suicide every weekend.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  So I had to be on the, on the phone with emergency services, telling them that she'd cut her wrists in a shallow manner. And it was so frustrating. She'd have all of these tears constantly. And I was like, I can't deal with this. It's not my problem. I just, I get fed up.

• 54:10Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Well, it kind of is your problem if you're in a relationship with someone, right? Cause you want them to be there for you when you need them. Your friend who stayed up until four in the morning, you have an awful lot of respect and gratitude for her for doing that.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 54:23Chris Williamson?

  But if your partner was either attempting to or threatening to take her own life, that felt like that was burdensome to you.

• 54:30Speaker 01

  Well, she did it every weekend. That's the problem. Like if she did it once in six months, okay. But there was a lot of other things. She had a drinking problem. Like she expected me to pay for everything. And it's like, oh, I don't want to do that.

• 54:45Chris Williamson?

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• 55:26Chris Williamson?

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• 56:02Chris Williamson?

  Given that, why have you gotten into dating advice?

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Because other people need to learn science of manipulation. Especially I got started when it was like the Red Pill podcast and everyone was like trying to degrade women and make women humble women, tell them that they're not special, tell them that like those, the, the advice was literally on par with the infographs on domestic violence. So the isolating, the gaslighting, like the triangulation, making her feel crazy. Like I know how that works because I've done that before. So I figured like, you know, I have all of these women who all of a sudden like me. And they are having so many problems. They like email me every single day and say, oh, I have this happening. I have this happening. Please help me. No one else can help me.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  And so I guess because I come across as like ruthless sometimes or very friendly at other times. They get the impression that I will care about what they're dealing with. So.

• 56:58Chris Williamson?

  Do you?

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Only once, I think. Only once. Like it was, it was a bad situation.

• 57:04Chris Williamson?

  It's interesting because you're obviously passionate about this topic, but you still don't really care about the people that are going through it. It's like, you seem to care about the sort of symbolic injustice.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:18Chris Williamson?

  But not the human side?

• 57:20Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 57:21Chris Williamson?

  Also, I'm noticing throughout the conversation, a lot of, um, male power over women is a big bugbear for you. Especially manipulative male power over women, that that's something that shouldn't happen perhaps. History, abuse, assault, also maybe seeing dad with mum. Have you, have you tried to sort of reverse, reverse engineer where this evangelism for not having men manipulate women comes from? I mean, you know, everybody should be able to agree that that's bad, but for you, it has a different flavor to it.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So obviously with Indian culture, it's very patriarchal. Um, and so men have the final say in everything. And when I was 13, my mom told me that it was time for me to learn how to cook. I said, sure. Is my brother learning too? And she's like, no, you're a girl. You do it. And I was like, fuck that. I'm not going to do this. So I was just like, no, I'm not going to play into this. And then obviously I've seen the dynamic online. I've been on the receiving end. Like I, I absolutely would annihilate anyone who wouldn't egg me. Like, yeah, so that would happen a lot. Like at a casino at one point, a guy was like, yeah, you're, you're hot, but you're not that hot. Like you're not like, I wouldn't go for someone like you normally.

• 58:36Speaker 01

  I was like, listen, you're five foot six and fat. No one wants you, especially not me. Um, but yeah, I do feel that I, I have had a mental soft spot for women going through abuse, but, but.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Everyone except the one man who wrote to me. Every other person who's ever been good to me has been a man. And every person who's caused me stress or caused me any kind of struggle in life is always women. Women were in that group. Women are in my comment section, like, oh, policing my tone. Women are the ones spreading rumours. Women are the problem.

• 59:21Chris Williamson?

  Interesting that most of your protection is of women against men. But at least in your experience, most of your good treatment has been from men and not from women.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  Literally, men have always helped me. Men have been, my dads loved me forever. Men on the street helped me parallel park.

• 59:39Chris Williamson?

  So what do you think's going on there? Square that circle.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  You know what's really odd is, okay, so I had this initially. I didn't think men had feelings. Like, I literally thought men don't have emotions. So seeing someone have emotions, it was like, okay, maybe they they do.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  But realising that they're the ones who have assisted me since like day one. And they're the ones who have supported me and been like loyal. Apart from my two female friends. It's just, I don't know why I had the advocacy for women. And I don't know, like, I actually have quite a contempt for some of my audience because they're very leftist sort of feminists. And they want me to be like on their terms about like gender and shit and I don't believe in that.

• 1:00:29Chris Williamson?

  Okay. What are the best pieces of dating advice you've got for women?

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  So never sleep with them until you're in a serious relationship because your body wasn't meant to be used by multiple people regularly. And also your heart wasn't designed to break for so many people. I would always make sure that you are actually safe. You you don't have like any concerns about red flags. So you should like, I put out some advice in terms of red flags, like if he's pushing too soon in terms of he's flooding you with attention, he's giving you everything you want. He's so, he's basically everything that you think of all through the day. That's a bad thing. That's really, really bad.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  You don't, you don't wanna, you don't want a guy who is making you feel like that because he's depriving you of contact from other people who will pull you back into reality. Also, um, I tend to tell women not to say people's names under their actual name. And to use a mildly insulting term to keep them there, like to for their contact name. And then also turn off.

• 1:01:39Chris Williamson?

  Hang on, why?

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Let me get to it.

• 1:01:41Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Also, turn off notifications on Instagram and on any other platforms and also turn off your activity status. So I do this because, one, dopamine comes in real quick from attention from this person. So you don't wanna have the the life sucked out of you because you've slowly been developing this level of respect for this person. Like, let me put it this way. If I have a guy saved on my phone as hepatitis B, how sad would I be if hepatitis B didn't text me back on time? So women get really obsessed like with the Instagram status because they'll be like, okay, this guy was active nine minutes ago.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  I sent him a message 10 hours ago. So they start to feel like there's something wrong with them. But if you have your notifications and your status off, you don't know when he was online. He doesn't know when you were online. You're mysterious. So it's it's like, it's a, it's a place where you don't feel the hurt if you don't get a text from him. So you're you're priming your body to be neutral. Instead of like emotionally connecting on to someone who you don't really know very well. And also I would say, don't text all the time because that's creating more intimacy than is actually capable and real at the at the moment.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Like, the false intimacy that comes from texting for like weeks and weeks before meeting is ridiculous.

• 1:03:14Chris Williamson?

  I understand maybe in early dating, not falling too fast for someone that you don't trust is

• 1:03:20Chris Williamson?

  perhaps not hepatitis B, but it's it's not a bad solution generally. But eventually, do you advise women to completely remove their mask as well?

• 1:03:30Speaker 01

  Yes. So I would say to women, until you are engaged, you're single. And you should, you should maintain, you know, your body. You shouldn't be out sleeping with people. Don't date five people and sleep with them. That's not where we're at.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  And so that's kind of where I go to tell women. And then, so another thing with the Orthodox Church, it tells you that marriage is when you become a martyr for each other. And I think if there's no investment in you first, you don't need to be a martyr for anybody.

• 1:04:05Chris Williamson?

  But you were also concerned about somebody investing in you too much first.

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, because that's love bombing.

• 1:04:12Chris Williamson?

  But you just said that you like to love bomb people early on in a relationship.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:04:16Chris Williamson?

  You do.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  I do, yeah, but.

• 1:04:18Chris Williamson?

  So it's okay for you to do it, but it's worrying if somebody, it's a red flag if a guy does it for a girl.

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  It's worrying both ways because there's plenty of female psychopaths who just don't really hear about them.

• 1:04:27Chris Williamson?

  So you would be saying to, if you were advising the guys that you were dating, if there was two of you.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:33Chris Williamson?

  And you saw you behaving the way that you do with guys, what do you think you would advise the guys?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  So basically an antidote to someone like me.

• 1:04:41Chris Williamson?

  What would you say? Would you be, that's a red flag, I'd be worried about this.

• 1:04:44Speaker 01

  I would tell them which red flags are there. And I do have men that I coach. Because like I've, yeah, another thing that I want to say about how I discovered how much men help, like, I went to a party with my husband and it was all his like youthful friends. And I was, they were talking about their girlfriends and whatnot. And then they said that they would be devastated if they cheated on them. And I thought men are naturally like, they don't have that emotion and like they wouldn't care about cheating on someone. And saying, the guy saying he couldn't live with himself.

• 1:05:15Chris Williamson?

  If he'd done it.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, if he'd done it. And it's like, okay, maybe they're not so bad. And then I went to Europe by myself. And every single time it was a European man who would help me get my bag, who would get it off the conveyor belt. And they would get me like free meals and stuff. And I know the intention behind some of that, but some of it was genuinely just helping me.

• 1:05:41Chris Williamson?

  No, the gentleman or whatever.

• 1:05:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, and even like Russian guys, like Russian, there was like a lot of these airports that have like the stairs going up and down for the tarmac. And so I did lug my suitcases up there and it was so annoying. And this Russian guy, he just grabbed my suitcase, took it down, went across the tarmac, went up the stairs to the plane, put it over my head and just walked away. And I was like, gentleman.

• 1:06:05Chris Williamson?

  What's the story about you and your husband?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Okay, so we met when I was doing Miss Universe New Zealand. And I went on a date with him, which was meant to be a double date with my friend and that guy bailed. So it was just like him with two Miss Universe girls and he got really, really nervous beforehand. But we just hit it off so fast. So we were talking about politics, like we have the same belief system. I don't have to lie and say I was like a leftist for a leftist person. So I was, he was a genuine conservative, I'm a genuine conservative. He was like, he was consistent with his effort. And he was such a cheapskate at that time. So if he he went out of his way to go buy new clothes to see me. And I appreciate that. I appreciate putting in like, putting in time and effort for somebody.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Because that's also what I will do if I truly find interest in somebody. I will dress how they like, I will be, you know, make sure I'm in their corner always. But he was fantastic. We had a couple of dates before I had to go back to Australia. And then I flew him to Australia with my money. And he never left. So we kind of moved in together. He moved into my parents' house, which was pretty taboo at the time. But I mean, they weren't too angry because they they saw that he was genuine. And after three months, I didn't feel contempt. I felt happy, like I felt open, like I can actually talk about things.

• 1:07:31Chris Williamson?

  What was the difference?

• 1:07:32Speaker 01

  I think because he's so calm, like he's this anchor that I've never really had outside of my father. And he is one of the best men I've ever known. Like, he doesn't even eat if I haven't eaten. And he is, like, he's known as floor guy because when I go to transfusions, he sleeps on the floor with me while I'm getting transfused. And like, there's not a lot of people who would go to those lengths, like, like the way he sponsored my Europe trip, like he was working so hard. And he does so much for me. He does so much for our like fur babies. And he has the values that I've always really appreciated.

• 1:08:14Chris Williamson?

  Is this the first time, are you in love? Is that?

• 1:08:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:08:17Chris Williamson?

  Right. Is this the first time you've felt that?

• 1:08:22Speaker 01

  I don't know, there's one before, but it wasn't the same. This is like, this is something that can endure. I didn't think that one could endure, the first one.

• 1:08:31Chris Williamson?

  Is it difficult being in a relationship? You mentioned if somebody says something, gets on my nerves, annoys me, agitates me, if they're doing something wrong, if they make me feel a certain way, negative, too much pushback, if I kind of don't get what I want. But in relationships, it's really important to have that push and pull because you don't always know what's right for you. And if it's somebody off the street or somebody you have no loyalty with, that kind of doesn't matter. But if it's your partner, it's really important for them to push you into place, to show you the blind spots. A lot of those blind spots are going to be uncomfortable.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Chris Williamson?

  Like if you do something, say, hey, you're being, you're being an asshole. And

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  That's what he says.

• 1:09:10Chris Williamson?

  But why is, is that not, are you, is there a tension inside of you now? You've got this, this person, you've got the loyalty thing, but you've also got this very fundamental physics inside of your system that you've had for far longer than him.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:09:25Chris Williamson?

  Do those two things clash?

• 1:09:26Speaker 01

  They do clash a lot. Um, the thing is with him is that I see everything that he does for me and I also give him grace because around him, I don't have to wear a mask. So I can't like, of course he, he causes agitation. Once in France, I, I was like, you, you like, when he was sleeping, I was like, you snore like a fucking chainsaw and it was pissing me off. And then I was trying to learn French on Duolingo and he kept like being annoyed when the bell went off, when I got something correct. And so I got really angry at him. But, um, the way I sort of handled the relationship with him is that we keep things pretty fresh. We change things around a lot because I don't like monotony. So

• 1:10:09Chris Williamson?

  What does that look like?

• 1:10:10Speaker 01

  So we like travel to different places. We were involved with like, um, we're just like going through the Epstein files. Like we were onto that well before it was like being talked by the DOJ. And so we went there, we were, we met up with Jeffrey's brother, Mark, who was nothing like Jeffrey. He's a great guy, great, amazing guy. Um, and so we get into like weird places, like together we've been a force to be reckoned with. Alone, I can be sort of a, like, an explosive that can go off at certain times, or it could be like an ice block that melts over time.

• 1:10:50Speaker 01

  But with him, he kind of will rein me in and he can also do it in a way that I don't find disrespectful. And I've had my fights with him. I mean, there was one time at the pool, I went to with my friend Marie, who had an Asian background. And this white lady was like, oh, you two can't swim properly. And I was like, I've been swimming here every single day for like two years. So you can shut the fuck up. And so my husband, he didn't stand up for me there because he's not a confrontational person. And so I threatened to break up because I was like, I can't deal with someone who won't stand up for me. Because I'm a very confrontational person. If someone has a problem with me and they talk shit about me, I'll go directly to them. So that was sort of a problem we had at the start.

• 1:11:33Speaker 01

  And he was a little bit worried about like, you know, what psychopathy is and all of that.

• 1:11:39Chris Williamson?

  I imagine he might've had a few questions.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:11:41Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  He did.

• 1:11:43Chris Williamson?

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• 1:12:25Chris Williamson?

  So upgrade your business and get the exact same checkout that we use at Neutonic with Shopify. You can sign up for a free trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to Shopify.com slash modern wisdom. That's Shopify.com slash modern wisdom. In 2021, you said that you were scared of becoming an abuser.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:12:44Chris Williamson?

  Today, your slogan on your website is stop being the victim, start being the villain.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  See, I don't

• 1:12:50Chris Williamson?

  What happened to the woman who was frightened of becoming abusive?

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Well, I don't want to be abusive to people I know. I don't know what other shit people have, have done. Like if you're dealing with a guy who's like ruined your life, why shouldn't you be abusive in return? But I also must say that he runs my website, so it's, it's not

• 1:13:11Chris Williamson?

  It's his copy, not yours.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's not mine.

• 1:13:13Chris Williamson?

  Interesting. Yeah, I think, you know, looking at a lot of the dating advice that's in your book, some of the stuff that's on the website, it does feel quite manipulative. Is that fair to say?

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  I think it is fair, yeah.

• 1:13:25Chris Williamson?

  Right. Do you think that teaching women manipulative dating tactics could cause them to introduce toxic games into actually healthy relationships?

• 1:13:35Speaker 01

  I try to avoid that, especially with my coaching clients. I tell them where ruthlessness should begin and where it should end. And it should definitely end when you're in a secure relationship. You don't want to damage that in any way, shape or form. So I value people's relationships if they are good for them. But if some guy is like making you feel like shit, saying that they, he's got better options than you and he's treating you like you, you're nothing, like you're a speck of dust, then it's more than fair for me to tell them, like if you want to get revenge or if you want to feel in power again, like if you want to be in power again, then you can use these methods. So you can have the benefits of psychopathy without all the negatives of psychopathy.

• 1:14:21Chris Williamson?

  What are some of the methods?

• 1:14:22Speaker 01

  Um, so the methods of

• 1:14:25Chris Williamson?

  Getting revenge on somebody or of regaining power, especially early in a relationship, I suppose.

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  So basically I've had a lot of women who like, they, I don't know, slept with a guy for a while and they don't know how to make him commit and they don't want to give him up. And so they'll book coaching calls with me, not take my advice because they're, they're weak, women are weak. And so it pisses me off, but I still tell them like, this is what you need to do in terms of methods. Like if he thinks he's better than you, show him your other options, like not directly because men aren't stupid. Men, you know, when things are happening. So don't rub it in his face, just let him know about it. Just let him know you've got options and you're going to put up with the shit. I also tell them to have the shit tests, right?

• 1:15:13Speaker 01

  The shit tests are important because you need to see what he will do under different circumstances before you commit to him. Um, and I think men should be able to do that as well. I just don't like the advice that say fresh and fit give of like making a woman feel like she's garbage so that she's like lowered her self-esteem to be with you. So that's not really what I tell people to do at all.

• 1:15:38Chris Williamson?

  Sounds like some of the, some of the bits of advice that I've seen from you, get perilously close to that.

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:46Chris Williamson?

  The push and pull, that you're supposed to love bomb him and then withdraw it, that you should find out what makes him anxious and vulnerable and then know how to push those buttons in order to make him need you a lot. That to me feels just like an inversion of some of the worst bits of dating advice that have come from the other side of the fence.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Okay. So I feel like women can't do as much damage as men most of the time. There are some exceptions to that, of course. And I also know that women are very moderate, so they're going to pull back what I say. And they're going to not do that because they just can't. Like I, I have proven time and time again that they can't. They want to live vicariously through me, but they cannot carry that out. But if they can carry it out to a point where they don't feel unstable, that's where you need to be. So I know their limitations. I know that if I put him here to a certain extent and they, they obviously, you know, will not go to that level, they will not go to that line, they will be well before that line. It's kind of like when in your, in drama school, when they, they're like, bring out all your energy and then draw it back in.

• 1:16:53Speaker 01

  So there's, are there going to be a couple of women who become genuinely abusive? Potentially. But I am not giving them any materials myself. Like if they choose to harm someone, that's not my fault. They can choose to take the advice in a book in general, or they could not.

• 1:17:12Chris Williamson?

  If Andrew Tate published your book with the pronouns reversed, how do you think he'd describe it?

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  Pretty much is like, it would be his ticket to fame.

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Except without sex trafficking.

• 1:17:29Chris Williamson?

  When it comes to dating advice though, a lot of what's being, what's being put across, like it, it seems like you really stand in opposition to men that manipulating women, to men that are trying to use dopamine and psychology in an attempt to create a need that maybe isn't there, create a power differential, create a degree of dependency.

• 1:17:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Chris Williamson?

  You're saying that women, men don't feel the impact of that in the same way that women do? And that women can't deploy the power of that in the same way that men can?

• 1:18:03Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:18:06Chris Williamson?

  Maybe. I would say women are interpersonally much more deft than men are and much more effective. Women are better lying detectors. They're also better liars. They are better at venting and gossip. That's why the movie Mean Girls was made about, it wasn't Mean Boys, it was Mean Girls.

• 1:18:31Chris Williamson?

  I understand what you mean, that empathy may be a little bit higher in women on average.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Extremely.

• 1:18:37Chris Williamson?

  Something tells me that those aren't the sorts of women that are going to be seeking out your content. So I wonder whether or not we're putting a performance enhancing drug on top of women who already maybe have this disposition. And you've identified yourself, there's, wow, I didn't know that men would feel guilt if they cheated on their partner. Wow, I didn't know that men would feel, you know, there might be another, wow, I didn't know that men actually might be able to feel pain of being ghosted or

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  Do they?

• 1:19:06Chris Williamson?

  Men feeling the pain of being ghosted. Absolutely.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  Actually, it's a thing.

• 1:19:10Chris Williamson?

  I would say so, yeah. I think if a guy is, look, there's certainly men who understand that applying an awful lot of romantic pressure early in a relationship can get a woman to fall for them. But what they're doing is trying to emulate the realness of that.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:30Chris Williamson?

  There have to be men that are just doing the realness thing, right? Not everybody is trying to play the game or else the signal wouldn't work, right?

• 1:19:37Speaker 01

  Thing is, just men are far more likely to be Machiavellian, Machiavellian, far more likely. It's like one in 20 for men. It's like one in a hundred for women.

• 1:19:47Chris Williamson?

  Okay, so you're talking about 5% versus 95%. That's true. That's a, that's a fair point. You know, you're right, that the men that are the socio-sexual few at the top. Now, it's interesting, it's actually the socio-sexual few men with the socio-sexual few women.

• 1:20:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:20:04Chris Williamson?

  Doesn't tend to be the guys that are like, the 80/20 thing doesn't seem to really be that true anymore. I understand what you mean. I understand why, why it's important for people to understand how manipulation works. I think what's dangerous is when you start to teach people to do it in reverse. That's where

• 1:20:22Chris Williamson?

  you, what you do is you create the incentive to, to damage people who are trying to do things legitimately. So the, the romance, the love bombing, the care, the attention, the affection. It might just be a guy who's like, I found my fucking woman. I found my woman and I can't stop thinking about her.

• 1:20:43Chris Williamson?

  I'm gonna do the flowers thing. I'm gonna send her the messages, you know, the Disney princess romance movie thing, the exact rom-com stuff that I think a lot of women want. And what I worry is that those women become skeptical of the motivations of guys doing things with all of the legitimacy that they wanted. And everything is seen through, well, that's love bombing. You know, if he's texting you three times in an hour, that's, that's, that's too much. Or if you get flowers after the first, because it's, if you don't ring a girl, that would be bad. But if you got flowers the next day, that would be too much. It's like, well, I don't know. Maybe he's just like, oh my God, that was the greatest night of my life. I found my wife. He's telling all of his friends.

• 1:21:23Chris Williamson?

  Or maybe he's a fuckboy, that you're just on the roster, you're in the WhatsApp broadcast list and working out the difference between those two. I, I worry that there might be some women who basically lose the person who was doing the thing they really wanted because they're seeing it as a tactic as opposed to an emotion. Does that make sense?

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  That's the purpose of shit tests. So you ask them to go slightly inconveniently out of their way to help you in some way. So I'm not saying you have to help move her house or something. If she's moving house, you have to go handle all of that. But it's like, do you mind picking this up on your way here? Do you mind meeting me here even though it's a little bit further from you? Do you mind, it's, it's the utility stuff because a man who loves you or cares about you or wants to genuinely be with this woman and he's like, oh my God, I love her so much. This is fantastic. I've met my woman. They're not gonna have a problem with that.

• 1:22:14Chris Williamson?

  So you're looking for effort?

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:22:16Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's a

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Words mean nothing.

• 1:22:18Chris Williamson?

  There's a line from Matthew Hussey, which is invest in people based on how much they invest in you.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:22:24Chris Williamson?

  And that is, for him especially, softly, softly Matthew Hussey, like quasi sociopathic, right? Because it's to do with the transactions, to do with the, as long as you show up for me. I, look, I, I don't disagree with

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Also, realistically, how many men are gonna actually take you to Paris later that night?

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  They promise you in the morning at coffee, how many are they gonna, are they gonna actually take you to Paris that evening?

• 1:22:52Chris Williamson?

  I guess it depends how good the sex is.

• 1:22:56Chris Williamson?

  Tell me, tell me in the past how you've dealt with breakups.

• 1:23:02Speaker 01

  Okay, so I broke up with, I tend to accidentally break up with guys on their birthdays.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  So one guy, I broke up with him and he was like, he drove to my house and he was sitting outside and he was crying and he was texting me constantly, please come out, please come out, please come out.

• 1:23:18Chris Williamson?

  On his birthday?

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  On his birthday. I didn't know because I didn't ask. So I was like, I'm not coming out. I'm not interested. I'm done. Please leave. And if you don't leave, like, I'm not gonna come out regardless. It's late at night. So I just, I was watching him cry in the car.

• 1:23:36Chris Williamson?

  How did you feel when you were watching him cry?

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  I think I laughed a little bit and then eventually got really pathetic. So I just closed the blinds. Other people, I, I tend to be as gentle as I can or I tend to just move very slowly away. So I'll start to draw back, like, there'll be less communication, there'll be less, less effort from me. There'll be less prioritization, like

• 1:24:03Chris Williamson?

  Not clean cut? You don't just say

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  Sometimes I do. Sometimes I'm just like, okay, we have, we're incompatible in this and this and this. And these are things that we cannot overcome. So we just need to handle it. And so I've dealt with all kinds of like breakups with people. So I think the most effective is generally fading away.

• 1:24:25Chris Williamson?

  The most effective way to break up with somebody is

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, because the ones that I tell them that we can't work out, they're always like, oh no, I can do this and I can do that and I can do this and we can make it work. It's like, I don't want you to. And they don't take that as a final answer.

• 1:24:42Chris Williamson?

  Even I don't want you to isn't taken as a final answer?

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's happened to me plenty of times.

• 1:24:50Chris Williamson?

  Rather than giving justifications, have, in the past, did you try saying, I don't want to be in this relationship anymore and not give a justification?

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Well, once I called a guy, I told him he was getting fat.

• 1:25:03Chris Williamson?

  That's still a justification?

• 1:25:06Chris Williamson?

  I don't want to be in this relationship anymore.

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  No, I would not do that.

• 1:25:09Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:25:09Speaker 01

  I don't know. I've just not been a person like that.

• 1:25:12Chris Williamson?

  I wonder, I wonder whether there's something about that utilitarian thing coming through again, but whether there needs to be a ledger of some kind. I have to have a justification for this. But that's actually, needing to have a justification for it is actually quite a human thing.

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like letting them know that something exists, not necessarily them actually doing it. So if like, so I'll set up an arbitrary boundary of like, don't text me before this time. And then they start doing it regularly and I'm like, okay, like I've given you this. And like, my actual motivation would be completely different to how I presented.

• 1:25:48Chris Williamson?

  You just don't want to be in the relationship, but you made this rule. Interesting. Let's say that you had neurotypical children.

• 1:25:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:55Chris Williamson?

  Would you encourage them to date a sociopath?

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:59Chris Williamson?

  Why?

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  Because if you earn like a real, a real sociopath, real psychopath, if they are genuinely on your team, you have someone who is willing to harm people for you. They are ride or die for you. They're in your corner. They're choosing to love you every single day. They're not a slave to their emotions and their brain chemicals. They are making an effort to be there for you. And Dr. K, he's from Healthy Gamer Gigi. He even spoke on this. He said, people who are capable of these heinous things have chosen to be on your side. And they will carry out the instrumental damage to other people for you and they will be your shield.

• 1:26:41Speaker 01

  So I think there's absolutely, like, first you vet the crap out of them, vet them, vet them, vet them. Even sociopath psychopath, the mask slips regardless. If you, if I hung out with you for a week, it would slip fully. You would see it. No matter how hard I try, it will slip.

• 1:26:58Chris Williamson?

  How long? Because, you know, you can hold together a two-hour podcast relatively well. What, when does it begin to get difficult? A couple of days in, a weekend, a couple of weeks?

• 1:27:09Speaker 01

  Probably a week. A week, you'll start seeing

• 1:27:11Chris Williamson?

  What, what does that look like? What does start seeing?

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  You start seeing like less enthusiastic responses. You'd see like less courteousness, although

• 1:27:20Chris Williamson?

  More callous?

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  More callous. Definitely more callous. Like it's less me trying to appease or, you know, trying to cater to somebody. It would be, you know, the true self coming out.

• 1:27:35Chris Williamson?

  Do you think some men get turned on at the idea of being manipulated?

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, they do. They come into my DMs regularly. They're like asking me if I can manipulate them. They'll give me money for it and

• 1:27:46Chris Williamson?

  It's like pay pig stuff, but manipulate pig stuff.

• 1:27:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pay pigs. And then there's like submissive men especially. They'll come up to me and they'll be like, oh, I find you so attractive or I love that you could like make me do anything. And you say the most vile things and still are so hot. And so I get that a lot. And I find it really repulsive because I don't, anything that's linked, I guess, to

• 1:28:13Speaker 01

  sexual gratification is something I find really dirty.

• 1:28:17Chris Williamson?

  Casually?

• 1:28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, casually. And that's exactly what they're wanting. I mean, they're getting off on it. I'm like, it does nothing for me.

• 1:28:25Chris Williamson?

  Interesting that I, I had a friend in university who was doing financial, FIndom? Financial dominate, dominate tricks thing? And this guy would send her, I didn't realize how it worked. It's fucking gnarly. This guy would send her his pay packet at the start of every week or at the start of every month and she would drip feed him 50p, one pound, one pound 50 daily and he would have to beg and she would have this, all of these videos and stuff. And it was a consensual, unconsensual relationship, like, because the whole premise was, I need you to send me more. No, I won't. But then at the start of each month, she would get his entire pay packet.

• 1:29:10Chris Williamson?

  And there was a time when the car was out of gas and he was married with kids. The car was out of gas. And he needed to drive to work and she just sent him 50p and said, get the bus instead. And he said, that can't even get me there. And she said, well, just walk. And you go, okay, at what point does this weird kind of

• 1:29:31Chris Williamson?

  Self mistreatment, kind of like financial self harm.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  It's like self.

• 1:29:36Chris Williamson?

  That you're legitimating somebody else doing on your behalf.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:41Chris Williamson?

  Ethically, I still have no idea. That was.

• 1:29:43Speaker 01

  It's like self.

• 1:29:44Chris Williamson?

  Fifteen fucking years ago, and I still don't know how I feel about it.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:49Chris Williamson?

  But it's strange that some people can get off sexually with that. And what your distaste is around is the fact that they're feeling sexually, even if you don't feel it.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't.

• 1:30:01Chris Williamson?

  That's very interesting.

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  I don't like the other feeling of them thinking they can, I guess, sexually have power.

• 1:30:07Chris Williamson?

  Steal pleasure in a way.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:30:10Chris Williamson?

  I think it's interesting that you're, you're sort of stopping. You've got this disconcerting sensation around men wanting to be manipulated by you. I, I feel like part of the status issue as well is it's such a lowering of them. In comparison to you, it seems like pity is a little bit of an element in here as well. Is that fair?

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  So I've had a lot of guys come up to me on Tinder or whatever and say, you're too good for me. And there's something really disgusting in that for me. It's like, either he's trying to get me to like, compliment him to the point where he's at the status where he believes me to be. Or he wants me to abandon my own self and, you know.

• 1:30:57Chris Williamson?

  It's a game or it's low self worth.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And so when they say that, I used, like, when they said it before, I used to be like, okay, uh, let me just respond with something nice. And then I realized most of them are really terrible people. And if you're automatically disqualifying yourself, then like, I have no reason to show any interest in you. And I don't find it attractive that you don't have any self-respect.

• 1:31:21Chris Williamson?

  Hmm, hmm.

• 1:31:23Speaker 01

  It's just, it's something that's icky. I don't like weakness and I don't like pathetic sort of situations like that.

• 1:31:32Chris Williamson?

  What are some of the things that you don't understand about yourself?

• 1:31:35Speaker 01

  Why I have so many hypocritical positions on things.

• 1:31:42Speaker 01

  Why I've cultivated an audience that isn't anything like me. Like, I'm a conservative. I want a conservative base. I want to be able to talk about politics. I want to be able to talk about things that I care about. And my audience is just capturing me in this place where I have to pretend to care about their ridiculous and quite often degrading and degenerate behavior. Like, I've cultivated this and it pisses me off. And then anything with psychopathy, it brings more women, more crazy women in my inbox. And it's like, it's great if they're buying my book, okay? It's great if they're booking coaching sessions, but I hate them.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  So it's like this, this is like duality of it. And it's like, you either provide me use or you don't. And that's kind of a position I have. I also don't know why I support women in general when women, of course, me the most harm out of everyone. Uh, I also feel like how I expect empathy and stuff from other people, even though I can't reciprocate. The weirdest thing about me is like, I would say.

• 1:32:57Chris Williamson?

  Oh, the weirdest. Go on.

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, the weirdest thing about me is that, um, I get really confused when people don't like me. Like, I will, like, I'm saying people I don't even know, and they're in relationships with other people who are not me. Like, it makes no sense. It's like, I, I know logically they don't know I exist, right? But it's like, how can someone be in a relationship with someone who is not me?

• 1:33:19Chris Williamson?

  Is that the grandiosity?

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  I think it is. I think that's narcissism. Narcissism. But yeah, like a really solid example of what a psychopath or alleged psychopath is, is Candace Owens. So over time, she drip feeds her audience like little bits of, oh, here's more information about Charlie's death, even though it's got nothing to do with Charlie. And she's just trying to get views. That's, that's a psychopath's play in.

• 1:33:48Chris Williamson?

  How, uh, how can someone detect if another person's a sociopath or a psychopath?

• 1:33:53Speaker 01

  First the eyes, then you could do a simple test, the yawn test, smile test. We don't yawn when you yawn. We don't smile. Laughing isn't contagious for us. It will generally mirror what you, your positions are. Tilted head means more like they, like, we're looking like we're actually trying to understand everything you're saying. Remembering your name, all of those things that are very, very specific, uh, compliments on obscure things. Like, I, I like people's noses. And so, like, I think you have a nice nose. And I think there's like, Rob Lowe is my ideal. Cause, cause he's got like the perfect, most tiny little nose. So things like that, like there's the peculiarities of psychopaths.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  And another thing that you would notice is, so we have weird justifications in our head for things. And so, you know, BTK, Dennis Rader.

• 1:34:46Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  He, he wouldn't, he was a serial killer, uh, bind, torture, kill.

• 1:34:50Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. He wouldn't rape the women because, that he killed because he said that would be cheating on his wife. And, uh, what's it? Ed, Ed Kemper was like, yeah, I killed her, but I never hit her. So it's like, there's this weird little things that you'll notice that are off. And there are, you'll tell that there's, if, if you can study people's faces, there'll be little microaggressions. Like usually when you lie and get away with it, there's like a little bit of a smile coming up, like. And like, I don't know what the direct term for it is, but that's really, really something you'll see. And also with actions, you'll see psychopaths will help you only when it's useful for them generally. But if they are helping you in times that you are offering nothing in return,

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  then you've made it into sort of a successful relationship with a psychopath.

• 1:35:40Chris Williamson?

  Who do you think some of the most famous sociopaths in the world out there at the moment are?

• 1:35:44Speaker 01

  Candace Owens, um,

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Justin Trudeau, uh, Gavin Newsom, JD Vance, uh, who else?

• 1:35:58Chris Williamson?

  JD, but not Trump.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Not Trump. Trump's a narc. He's a narcissist.

• 1:36:02Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, who else is?

• 1:36:10Speaker 01

  There are so many people. Kevin Spacey. Please don't kill me, Kevin Spacey. They all seem to go.

• 1:36:16Chris Williamson?

  I think you're the wrong gender for Kevin.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  True, true. Uh, who else? Um, Angelina Jolie.

• 1:36:24Chris Williamson?

  Think Angelina's a.

• 1:36:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:25Chris Williamson?

  Sociopath.

• 1:36:26Speaker 01

  I think the front of being an ambassador for charities and not speaking out for the Jews and not actually acknowledging that women were raped and tortured on the 7th of October in 2023. That's really hypocritical. She loves stealing other people's man. Like she, she literally breaks up relationships on like a regular basis. She seems to use people a lot for what they have and nothing that she does seems like it is genuine affection.

• 1:36:55Chris Williamson?

  Ariana Grande is a prolific homewrecker.

• 1:36:57Speaker 01

  Oh, yes. I was going to say Ariana as well.

• 1:37:00Chris Williamson?

  But do you think, can someone be a homewrecker without being a sociopath?

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, they can. But the way that she does it is in the most malicious way possible. Like, that's her goal is to break up the relationship. It's not that she's just madly in love with this man.

• 1:37:11Chris Williamson?

  Why would that be, why would that be something useful or interesting, the, the breaking up?

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  There's, there's joy in watching the pain. Like that's, I guess, a side of sadism that.

• 1:37:21Chris Williamson?

  But you haven't talked about that, Matt. We haven't talked about the sadism thing. You've talked about wanting to get revenge on people. If some girl says something that's mean and then you do something. The sadism side seems to have fallen away a little bit.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Well, I haven't really gone into detail.

• 1:37:38Chris Williamson?

  Well, let's go into detail. Tell me about the sadism part of it.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  So I purposely, there's a lot of people that I purposely, like, I tell them that I like them and whatnot. I like, show them vulnerability so that they'll show me theirs. And then I actually enjoy watching them suffer. I'll give them incorrect advice so that I know that they are not, not my clients, but literally I will lead them astray. I know exactly how to turn them. I know exactly how their mind works. I can make them or I can break them. And seeing someone begging you to see them and like, being a fully grown man crying, there's a satisfaction in that. There's a lot of satisfaction.

• 1:38:17Chris Williamson?

  What's the sensation?

• 1:38:19Speaker 01

  Thrill. It's like a thrill. It's like adrenaline. It's like, oh my God, look at what he's willing to do for me.

• 1:38:24Chris Williamson?

  Like power.

• 1:38:25Speaker 01

  The power. Yeah. So someone submitting, I guess. And that's something I like outside of, I guess, sexual relationships or romantic relationships. I don't really like submissive men. I think they're disgusting. But I'm saying in terms of like seeing emotional pain, that is something that I enjoy. Like I write the most, like, I think funny insults. And I'm like, I'm like, you have less integrity than Reinhard Heidrich. So let's not get into that. But there's a certain sort of suffering, like where you leave a emotional gap for them, that they desperately need closure from you. And so they'll like run, like run in circles, trying to please you, trying to get that out of you.

• 1:39:10Speaker 01

  And I will never give that person closure because I know that I'll have control over them for the rest of their lives. People try to get over it, but I've had people from nine years ago tell me they're having dreams about me. And so I feel like to a level it's working. And there's also with the physical, the physical sadism was more something in childhood, like I would enjoy watching them get injured. I would enjoy watching them like bleed, I guess. I would enjoy pushing her off the stool because every single day she had new bruises. Um, I used to, but now I think because I guess there's an element of being charged as an adult for crimes like that, or like for fraud, if I start stealing credit

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  cards again, or if I see people, like, for example, when I stole a credit card from a girl's wallet at university, I went and I was comforting her, where she was like, someone went on a shopping spree with my card. And I was like, that is so awful. People are despicable. People are really bad. I was like hugging her. Meanwhile, I was spending all her money. So there was that kind of delight in like watching her do that. And then, you know, the girl that I ruined, the pageant one, there was so much like joy in seeing her like go into a level of depression that seemed unbearable because her depression

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  is not like my depression, as that I don't think it is. Um, so seeing that struggle.

• 1:40:39Chris Williamson?

  That one felt righteous, though.

• 1:40:41Speaker 01

  It's righteous, I feel.

• 1:40:42Chris Williamson?

  It feels like those, I, I did the girl with the credit card do anything?

• 1:40:46Speaker 01

  No, she cancelled the card.

• 1:40:48Chris Williamson?

  I mean, did she do anything to justify the stealing of the card?

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  No, I just wanted to.

• 1:40:51Chris Williamson?

  I can, so I can see, this is where for me, the real discomfort comes in, which is, if you do something to someone and you get an outsized piece of revenge, horrible, very painful, but at least in the equation of normal human psychology, you can understand it. It's when it's senseless, there's no justifiable reason, there's no understandable explanation for why this thing happened. That to me is where I go, holy fuck, like, because I, I think the reason it feels that way is there's no control, that if you decide to poke the bear too many, one too many times and it hits you, okay, at least if I don't

• 1:41:35Chris Williamson?

  poke a bear, I'm not going to get hit. Whereas if I'm just some girl who didn't do anything, didn't try to say something mean to you at Miss Universe, and then the country of Venezuela comes after me, that I was just some girl that had a handbag and there was a card there and now it's gone. And then I'm being manipulated into thinking that I've got a friend and the friend's actually spending all my money. And that feels a bit different.

• 1:41:56Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And that's why I don't do that anymore. But maybe there's something in the subconscious level that I didn't know what, like I had a reason for it, but nothing comes to mind.

• 1:42:06Chris Williamson?

  Could have been jealous of her, could have been something else.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Anything, really.

• 1:42:10Chris Williamson?

  Do you ever wish that you could feel normal emotions and care for people like a typical human?

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  I feel like I already do that for people who are worthy of it. Like, I don't do it for, like, what am I gonna get out of being kind to someone who's not gonna like support me? She's not gonna be in my corner when I need them. It's very, um, it's just time consuming to care for many, many people. And sometimes do I wish I could be, not be behind a glass wall? Sure. It's lonely sometimes, it is. And people don't realize that. People don't realize how like hard it is to actually deal with this, this disorder. And people try to fake it and they want it. And it's like, it's actual hell. Like, you never actually feel like a, a full, you know, functioning person. I feel like I didn't really grow

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  up either. Like, I, I talked to friends that I've, you know, I haven't talked to them in years and they all have like children and they're doing all of this. And I'm still in the same mindset. And it's like, it's really frustrating, even though I've achieved quite a lot since then. Like, I, like, you know, I was on my dream, uh, show the other day on Sean Hannity, because I used to watch him with my dad when I was little. And so that was like amazing. And I do all of that stuff. And I've, you know, been at the trials of Ghislaine Maxwell. Like, I've, I've done all of this stuff. I was literally in her bathtub to get a photo.

• 1:43:37Chris Williamson?

  Consentually?

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  I, well, she wasn't there. She was in prison. So her house was up for sale. So it was like the perfect time to go in and get evidence.

• 1:43:47Chris Williamson?

  You treated it like a museum.

• 1:43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:43:50Chris Williamson?

  Interesting.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. I was just trying to see like the logistics of that bathtub and how many people it could fit. Because Virginia Giuffre and was saying that Prince Andrew had ripped her in that bathtub. And so I was just trying to see if that, like, you know, panned out.

• 1:44:07Chris Williamson?

  What did you discover?

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  I could barely fit. I'm five foot. As far as I know, Prince, Prince Andrew was six foot and Virginia was five eight. So if I struggled in there, I'd.

• 1:44:21Chris Williamson?

  That feels like a flimsy bathtub for somebody that's got a lot of money.

• 1:44:24Speaker 01

  Uh, her house.

• 1:44:25Chris Williamson?

  Did you judge her?

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, her house is trash, but it's in Kensington. So it's like.

• 1:44:30Chris Williamson?

  Expensive postcard.

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:44:32Chris Williamson?

  So I understand about, I think I've got normal emotions. I think I do have emotions for the people that I care about. Do you know the difference between a local Maxima and global Maxima?

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:44:43Chris Williamson?

  Cool. So you can only optimize the things that you know.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:44:47Chris Williamson?

  Stuff that you don't know, you can't optimize for. And sometimes you're stuck inside of a local Maxima. There might be a, a higher high or more returns that you can get by trying a different approach. But if you don't know the approach, you're constrained by what you know.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:00Chris Williamson?

  I'm wondering, I'm trying to give you a very utilitarian justification for perhaps broadening that.

• 1:45:09Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 1:45:10Chris Williamson?

  That it does make sense to do things for people, even if you were looking at it totally sterilely, apart from the fact it's good and pro-social and rah rah rah.

• 1:45:21Chris Williamson?

  It makes sense to do things for people that you can't see a direct return from, especially if they're different on new things, because you don't know what you don't know, and you don't fully understand how that repercussion could come back around. Many times, you talked about somebody from nine years ago that you've forgotten about is still being affected by you. He might not have known nine years ago that that would be the case. So he had a local Maxima there and there's a global Maxima that's higher by doing something you didn't know about. The same thing can happen in the positive way, too. You go, huh, I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna do this thing for a friend and maybe they pay me back, maybe they don't. And then something happens, the return that comes back around from this, even if you couldn't have done the calculus, ends up being unbelievably positive for you in your life. So I wonder whether you're going to slowly accumulate more of

• 1:46:05Chris Williamson?

  these algorithms where you go, huh, that's an, because what, what you're doing basically is a very slow walk of pro-social human evolution just inside of one person. Like, you're having to learn it step by step by step, as opposed to being boot loaded with the source code that most of us have got.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:46:25Chris Williamson?

  And I'm, what I'm interested in is, first off, if you make it to the end of life without getting into some like real, real trouble. But secondly, how far along that you get? It's like, how many hu, normal human behaviors are you going to learn psychologically through deliberate practice? And because you said before, you had, uh, physical, um, and like criminal tendencies more so, they became a little bit more domesticated. Okay, now I've got friends. Okay, now I've got a partner. Okay, now I've got, now I've got, now.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  I've got responsibilities.

• 1:47:01Chris Williamson?

  Exactly. And you go, okay, how far along are you gonna get through life? I think that's kind of.

• 1:47:06Speaker 01

  That's actually a great question. So I think that, like, the Christianity really helped and Charlie Kirk really helped get me there. It was the fact that, you know, he, he would say, like, do one good thing every day for somebody. And the thing is, I am, I love showering people with gifts and I love like taking care of them, even if I know that I, they could pay me back, maybe. But there's just like, I just like that. So sometimes like with the love bombing, sometimes it's like I'm genuinely excited because I'm so flat that things will sort of, I need things to happen to actually feel anything. But in terms of actually developing pro-social behaviors and learning from other people, I feel like I'm doing that. I feel like I'm doing that on a regular basis. I

• 1:47:51Speaker 01

  feel like the, uh, the traditions and the authority of the Orthodox Church is helping me, like being, because I actually love hierarchies. I love hierarchies. I love.

• 1:48:03Chris Williamson?

  Presumably if you're quite high up them.

• 1:48:05Speaker 01

  Um, but the thing is, it's like, there's this discipline that it teaches you that I don't have and I want to learn it. So you have to stand for two hours. Yep, yeah, you have to stand for two hours for the service. There's no, you don't sit down, there's no pews. Um, you have to fast Wednesdays and Fridays. That's a, that's a way to reduce gluttony. Um, and that, that, the church is a hospital. So if you're sick or if you've committed sins, like what I have, they don't treat you like a criminal. They treat you like a person who needs help at a hospital. Um, and the priest, they don't judge you, like.

• 1:48:41Chris Williamson?

  So it seems, it seems to me that the forgiveness element is a big part of that. But how is it that you're learning the value of forgiveness for you, but not applying that to other people? If this is now the new thing, which is one of the biggest life changes that you've gone through, I would assume, okay.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  I'm trying.

• 1:49:00Chris Williamson?

  Receive gifts.

• 1:49:00Speaker 01

  I am trying to be more like forgiving to people, like to pray.

• 1:49:07Chris Williamson?

  How's that going?

• 1:49:08Speaker 01

  It's hard. Cause my priest says, if you can't pray for them, just pray for yourself. And like you harbor less hatred for them until you are at a point where you can pray for them. And I just feel really connected to them because like, I love the advice that they give. I love that it's like a spiritual father. So I have my, my natural father. I've got a spiritual father who I can run decisions by if they're like, you know, something that would be harmful to other people. Like, I like having that as a sort of restriction. And I like the stability of the church. It hasn't changed in 2000 years. So there's like, there's this sense of traditional circumstances, traditional like values that

• 1:49:51Speaker 01

  I had in my home. Um, I, I don't think that, that necessarily I can do everything a normal human can do, like we love in our own way. We have care for people in our own way. It's just a lot of people don't make the cut, unfortunately. And I'm trying to get to that stage where I'm able to do far more good than bad. And I feel like I'm well on my way to that.

• 1:50:19Chris Williamson?

  I've heard that you're some special type of soprano as well.

• 1:50:22Speaker 01

  Coloratura.

• 1:50:24Chris Williamson?

  Can I hear what that sounds like?

• 1:50:37Chris Williamson?

  I can't do that.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  And no, nobody can.

• 1:50:40Chris Williamson?

  Kanekabatra, ladies and gentlemen. Uh, what's coming up next for you? Like, what do you want out of the next couple of?

• 1:50:48Speaker 01

  I wanna write another book. I want to be a commentator politically for the conservative movement, because it's got a big rift in it at the moment. And I would like to ideally be on the way to having a family and be baptized into the Orthodox Church.

• 1:51:07Chris Williamson?

  I'll be watching with interest. I appreciate you very much. Where should people go to check out everything you do?

• 1:51:11Speaker 01

  Everything's on my Instagram. My website is kanekabrows.com. It has my book on it. It has the concilium where I teach you how to avoid manipulation and how to like get your freedom back from the cage that is your brain.

• 1:51:27Chris Williamson?

  Thank you. Thank you.

• 1:51:28Speaker 06

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