Chasing The Most Hated Hacker In History - Joe Tidy

Joe Tidy is a BBC cybersecurity correspondent, covering hacking, data security, and online safety. Many have either fallen victim personally to a cyberattack or know someone who has. But what exactly is this growing threat? Who’s behind it, why are they doing it, and, most importantly, how can you protect yourself? Expect to learn what Scattered Spider is, if teenage hackers are the new digital cartel and why Russia is such a hotbed for hacking, when cyber security attacks will be treated as an act of war, the wild story of the hacker Julius Kivimäki, the fallout from the crowd strike attack the put the world on standstill, if regulation of the dark web and crypto economy will ever evolve past what it is today, and much more… - 00:00 What Is Scattered Spider? 07:52 How We Get Hacked & What We Can Do About It? 18:32 Today’s Rising Hacking Culture & Cybercrime 26:40 Which Country Is Cybercrime Most Prevalent? 33:03 Will Cyber Attacks Ever Be Treated As An Act Of War? 37:41 How Do Cybersecurity Firms Find Hackers? 42:39 The Lizard Squad Hack Of Christmas of 2010 49:16 Insights From An Interview With A Hacker 1:09:25 Who Is The Most Wanted Cyber Criminal In The World? 1:15:53 The Day CrowdStrike Cybersecurity Caused The World To Implode 1:20:08 Will Regulations Ever Catch Up With Cybercrime? 1:25:45 Where To Find Joe Tidy’s Book - Get 35% off your first subscription on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom Get the brand new Whoop 5.0 at https://join.whoop.com/modernwisdom⁠ Get a 20% discount & free shipping on Manscaped’s shavers at https://manscaped.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM20) - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  What's happening with Scattered Spider?

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Well, Scattered Spider is the name of this very loosely coordinated collective of hackers that are, we think, currently causing havoc around the UK and the US as well. So I don't know if you've heard about the news of the M&S cyber attack and the Co-op cyber attack. So there's a really big, if you're not in the UK, there's a really big chain of supermarkets called M&S, very much loved, over 100 years old, one of the pillars of the high street. And around Easter time, there was a cyber attack which started causing problems for M&S, and it just got worse and worse and worse for them. Because initially, they said, actually, we can't take orders on the internet, which for a massive company like M&S is really bad.

• 0:48Speaker 01

  Then we started seeing logistics problems, empty shelves in some stores. And then around this same time, there was a very similar attack on the Co-op. Again, another big supermarket chain in the UK. They also do funeral services and insurance as well. That attack wasn't as bad, but again, we're seeing disruption at stores, empty shelves, real chaos behind the scenes. And around the same time, we saw an attack on Harrods, obviously the luxury retailer in London. So everyone's wondering what on earth is going on. And things have got progressively worse. And then we hear the last couple of days, there are attacks on US retailers as well. And everyone is pointing towards this really infamous group called Scattered Spider.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  And they're not a normal cybercrime gang. They haven't named themselves that. They are, you know, not very organised. They come together on Discord and Telegram, a little bit like, have you heard of Anonymous?

• 1:46Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're a little bit like that, but more out for cybercrime and money and infamy than sort of hacktivism. So one company called CrowdStrike started looking at this activity coming from this sort of corner of the cybercrime ecosystem. And they said, who are these people? They're doing the same kind of tricks to get into into places. So they nicknamed them Scattered Spider. Spider is the name that CrowdStrike gives cybercrime groups and scattered is is what they um, the term they give for, you know, because they're loose and they're all over the place. And actually, I'm looking right now at the CrowdStrike Scattered Spider figurine. Um, it's very controversial, actually, that they've done this, but here you go.

• 2:31Speaker 01

  So this is the. So they sell these on their merch website. And like I say, quite controversial, actually, because it kind of glamorizes these these guys. And there are some people who would who would say, we shouldn't really glamorize cybercriminals because um, the the type of individuals that we think Scattered Spider are, very young, probably teenagers in the US and UK, they will love the attention of having their own figurine.

• 3:01Chris Williamson?

  Do you think that social media platforms like Twitter have sort of changed what hackers' motivations are from just exploration or exploitation to now fame, cloud chasing, stuff like that?

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. When I wrote this book, my publisher, on the first draft, my publisher said, now, that's all great, but can you answer some questions as to how this has happened and why this has happened? And they really kind of challenged me, and I work for the BBC, so normally, you know, we've got to be very careful about giving opinions and and putting our necks on the line in terms of theories about things. But it was quite good because I landed on this, there are two kind of factors which I think have turned teenage hackers from largely benevolent groups of people that are out to. You know, they're out to to make a name for themselves, but they're also out to make the internet a safer place to where we are now, where we've got cybercrime gangs, teenage gangs that are causing mayhem and trying to make money. And I think Twitter

• 4:00Speaker 01

  is a very that you could kind of see at that point when Twitter becomes mainstream, this shift starting to take place. Because of course, before Twitter, social networks were about being social with your network. Whereas Twitter sort of invented the idea of followers and retweets and likes and, you know, clout online. And that's when we started seeing in 2011, when Twitter was really on the ascendancy, we saw LOLSEC, the first of this conveyor belt of teenage cybercrime gangs.

• 4:29Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's no one flexing their recent ransomware exploitation on that personal Facebook account. That wouldn't work, but on Twitter, that would be great.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. And and we know from interviews with arrested hackers and convicted hackers, they loved it. They loved the attention back then. And I think where we are now is slightly different, because I think what we're seeing is they have come off Twitter or X, whatever they're calling it. And now it's more in the kind of insular communities. But they're still they're still after that online clout and that that infamy. It's just they're in their own channels in Telegram and Discord.

• 5:09Chris Williamson?

  I was gonna say, where do these people live?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, Telegram and Discord, yeah. So if we're talking about Scattered Spider, which very much formed the last part of my book, because I talk about the kind of this gradual shift to where we are now. But Scattered Spider, they're part of this larger collective known as the COM, the community, which is a group of thousands of online delinquents, really, largely boys, obviously, it always is. And they're causing mayhem and in some cases, doing some really nasty stuff like sextortion. Do you know what sextortion is?

• 5:43Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  So sextortion is this horrible

• 5:49Speaker 01

  Sort of criminal harassment campaign where you trick someone into sending you nudes. So I would, I might befriend someone on the internet and, and strike up a relationship, a romantic relationship. Send them some nudes that they think are of me, but I'm, I'm a criminal. I'm, I'm a man, not, not, not the, the young girl they think I was. Convince them into sending me nudes and then you start extorting them, saying, if you don't pay me, then I'm going to release all these pictures. So we see that kind of activity in the comm and we see some really nasty stuff, some other stuff like, um. There's some, uh, it's really nasty, but, but like cut signs. Have you heard of cut signs?

• 6:29Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  So like, you know, a fan sign where if you're a big fan of someone, you will hold a sign up saying, I love them, or you'll hold their name or their band name. A cut sign is like that, but you literally cut into your own skin. The names of hackers, the names of hackers that are extorting you or, or.

• 6:47Chris Williamson?

  Wow. So the hackers are saying that you need to show me that you've self harmed my name into your arm.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. To show devotion or to make them feel powerful. There's a, excuse me, there's a, a bit in my book where. We, we, there's a gang called Lizard Squad that was around in twenty fourteen, fifteen. And they destroyed someone's online life. They hacked all of this kid's accounts. And in order to get them back, he had to make a cut sign and say lizard squad made me do this. So although people are really shocked about what we're seeing in the comm now, this kind of activity has been around for a while. We, we know it's there. We've got the history for it. So scattered spider are part of this larger online cybercrime nastiness.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  They're a very kind of small niche of this much larger group of largely unskilled cyber people. You wouldn't even call them cyber criminals, but then they're, they come together. With a little bit of skill and a lot of balls and take on these big hacking campaigns.

• 7:52Chris Williamson?

  It seems, I don't know, I have to assume that although M and S is a hundred year old institution, I would like to think that their cybersecurity isn't a hundred years old. But how, if, you've got to have someone with talent, I assume. How do they get into a system of any kind? Is this cyber hacking or is this social engineering? Or is this some combination of the two?

• 8:15Speaker 01

  It's, yes, a combination of the two. I think the initial entry is usually through social engineering. But to be honest with you, I mean, a lot of hacking is that. To get into a system, it's not really like in the movies where you kind of hunch over a laptop, typing code furiously to get in. Normally it starts with like an email that you can trick someone into downloading an attachment or you call up. This, this is what we think happened with the latest attacks is that they call up the IT help desk and they pretend to be a member of staff and they say, you know, I've forgotten my password. Can you let me in please? And it sounds so stupid, but it works.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  And then what, what often happens is once they are in, that's when you would argue the hacking starts. That's when they find a vulnerability that allows them to spread themselves throughout the network, deploy ransomware, which is this type of malicious software that scrambles a company or a victim's computer and systems and servers, makes that data completely unreadable, useless, brings computers to their knees. And that is where they send the ransom note saying, if you want the key, pay us in Bitcoin, certain amount, and we'll give it back to you. And ransomware is by far the number one problem in cyber right now.

• 9:33Chris Williamson?

  Right, so this is social engineering, pretend to be Julie from the front, from reception, who's locked herself out, find the person who is sufficiently gullible or doesn't stick to protocol and actually allows you in in some ways. Then you've got access to some Intranet type system that means that you can access other bits. Maybe some more sort of spreading from there. I would imagine maybe you as that person emails someone else an attachment which gets you more access to higher admin level.

• 10:05Speaker 01

  You're thinking of a criminal.

• 10:07Chris Williamson?

  Well, look, what can I say? I'm a, I am a young British man. But no, I mean, my password manager is a fucking mess. So I would be bad at that.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  It's good that you've got one.

• 10:18Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  You're way, you're a way step ahead of most people if you've got a password manager.

• 10:21Chris Williamson?

  I had, who was the FBI's most wanted guy, that hacker for a while? Fuck.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  Kevin Mitnick?

• 10:29Chris Williamson?

  No, uh, maybe. He was on the show probably about three years ago or so. And, you know, he'd gone through all of this stuff that he'd done. He'd broken himself out of jail twice and all of this bullshit. And I got to the end of it and I was like, hey, man, I'm, I'm fucking terrified. Like, what, what, what do I do? And he's like, dude, just use a, use a password manager, like the TLDR 90, 90, 10 solution is just get a password manager and use that. So.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Someone once said to me, there are, there are buckets of how difficult you are to hack. And hackers will always go for the easiest bucket. Who can I hack? Who uses the same passwords across multiple accounts? Who uses weak passwords? If you take yourself out of that easy bucket into the slightly harder bucket, massively reduce your chance of getting hacked.

• 11:13Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Why? Like even if you're the target, but you're a difficult target, there's so many more easy targets. Fuck it. We might as well go for them. Okay. So, ransomware, what, this is, this can just totally debilitate computer systems, companies. If M and S can't get eggs on the shelves, it seems, it's pretty comprehensive.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Ransomware completely cripples an organization. It's like going back to medieval times, your pen and paper, you really are. And sometimes we've had situations where ransomware has hit hospitals, for example. And they can't even function in any way you'd imagine. Like some of the systems, some of the scanning systems they use in hospitals, for example, they've been infected by ransomware. So they're down as well. So yeah, I would not want to be in an organisation where they've been hit with ransomware. M and S is going through a tough time.

• 12:05Chris Williamson?

  I wonder whether, or probably more likely when, we will see the first vehicle hack. Autonomous driving vehicles. I was in a, I drove from Palm Springs to Newport Beach last week.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Very nice.

• 12:23Chris Williamson?

  And I was in a, it was lovely. I mean, it was way too hot in Palm Springs, but I was in a rented Nissan Rogue, a new one. And it had normal, run-of-the-mill, medium-level trim Nissan Rogue. And it had this radar-guided cruise control and lane assist that was keeping in lanes. And would, if you just knocked the indicator on, would allow you to change it. I was like, this is assisted autonomous driving in a fucking Nissan Rogue, right? Old school petrol, two-liter, chug, chug, chug, American car, like Japanese car in America. And I just remember thinking, I've been in Waymos, Waymo is now available on Uber here in Austin.

• 13:07Chris Williamson?

  And I thought, holy shit, like if these ransomware attacks, you need, as, as the level of kinetic importance to people's lives increases, the level of security around those systems needs to increase in kind. I have to assume you've thought about this, autonomous driving and the potential risks to cybersecurity.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, we haven't seen anything like you're talking about, but I mean, yeah, it just, it does seem almost inevitable that someone will find a way to cause havoc with autonomous driving. It's a bleak thought, but of course, the companies that are behind these, these cars, they know that too. And you hope and you pray that they are pretty much on top of security.

• 13:54Chris Williamson?

  Jesus Christ, Joe, we've got to the, we've got to the point of hope and prayer. As our, forget your password manager, just get on your knees and, you know.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Have you read a book called Robo-Pocalypse?

• 14:04Chris Williamson?

  No.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  It's it's so good. Spielberg brought the rights to it a few years ago. He never actually did anything with them, but it would make and is going to make an awesome movie if they ever make it one day. So in that in that book, it's about how AI kills us all. And the one of the ways that um they initially get that first kind of like fifty percent of humanity dead is they take over the driverless cars and the description of what can happen is it's always it's always stuck with me. But not to scare anyone, that's not gonna happen. It's gonna be fine. It's gonna be fine.

• 14:36Chris Williamson?

  Okay.

• 14:36Speaker 01

  They are super duper cyber secure, I'm sure.

• 14:39Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well, yeah, up until up until you're reporting on it for BBC News, mate. And then and then I'm going to ring in. I'm going to say, Joe said to me from a from a I'm locked inside of my Tesla in which I don't yet own in Austin, Texas. People from outside are trying to Molotov cocktail it. People from inside are trying to hack it. I'm fucked. Um, okay, so.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  There was on that point, there was there was very recently, only like three weeks ago, some tech CEO in some American company, but can uh city, I can't remember which one. It was a self-driving city, so whatever, maybe.

• 15:13Chris Williamson?

  San Fran or Austin or something.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Something like that. He was stuck in one of these cars and it just kept going around the um the car park and he couldn't get it to stop. And it was funny, but also like, hmm, a bit worrying.

• 15:23Chris Williamson?

  I've got, look, I you're the guy for me to give this take to. I've said this before, but I have switched off uh the autonomous toggle on Uber in Austin. So you just it's on on the back end of the settings. Do you want to be more likely to be matched with an autonomous vehicle? And I've said no. Reason being, every time that there is a vehicle that's ten minutes away, that's a Waymo, it takes twenty minutes to get to me every single time. And every single time that we do the journey, they say it's gonna take fifteen minutes for me to get home from the east side of town or whatever. And it always takes nearly double. And I realized why, and it's because Waymos outwardly are so obvious. They're these big, like bulbous, clunky things, blidar on top and all, you know, additional Jaguar shit.

• 16:08Chris Williamson?

  And it's white, right? So it really stands out.

• 16:12Chris Williamson?

  I think there's two reasons why humans behave on the road. One is because of fear of retribution, especially in America with a very heavily armed populace. And the second one is guilt at sort of inconveniencing somebody else. So it's safety and human fucking decency, I suppose, is the two. The problem is, when you see a Waymo, there's no one in the driver's seat and you can't see if there's anybody in the back. So they just get cucked at every single junction. No one lets them out. Everybody's like, pedestrians will just, I will too, when I go on a walk around Austin. I'll just happily walk out. I'm like, it's 100 feet away, it's going at 30 miles, it'll slow down, I'll be fine. You wouldn't do that if there was a human driving the car.

• 16:57Chris Williamson?

  So it means that until you can program in retributive tailgating and beeping the horn and flashing the lights from the Waymo to somebody else. Or until you end up with more than 50% of the cars on the road being autonomous. You don't have this level of coordinate, it's an arms race, right? It's an arms race of like being mean as drivers. And unfortunately, the Waymo has come without the ammunition. Tesla self-driving people got a hold of this take online and said that that's different because Tesla self-driving is trained on real drivers.

• 17:36Chris Williamson?

  So you do have more natural merging, sort of more aggressive driving styles are built in because competent drivers are the drivers that this has been built on. Whereas Tesla focused on software, Waymo focused on hardware. And yeah, with Waymo, it's just, it's like being in the back of the car with your mum all the time.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Is that Tesla thing true? Have you done a comparison?

• 17:56Chris Williamson?

  No, I've never been in a Tesla that's got full self-driving. But I also know that the Tesla full self-driving community online is like very evangelist. It's like oddly militant. So I don't know, I guess I wait and see until I get into one. But yeah, that's my, that's my working thesis on autonomous vehicles.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  I thought you were gonna say you don't do that because of like the safety concerns. But actually, yeah, I also thought you were gonna say they're slow because they're slow and like they're very safe, aren't they? But no, I hadn't appreciated the other people on the road.

• 18:32Chris Williamson?

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• 19:15Chris Williamson?

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• 19:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we mentioned earlier about the rise of Twitter. I would put that very much as one of the reasons we've seen this shift. I would also say the rise of Bitcoin as well, because if you think about when Bitcoin started becoming valuable and useful as a store of value or as something you could buy things with, sort of 2011, 12, 13, that's when we saw this shift. And certainly, looking at some of the people I do in my book, they go from not even thinking about money, just doing it for the lols and for the clout, to thinking, hang on a minute, I can make some money here. And as soon as you start introducing Bitcoin into the lives of young teenage boys, you're looking at trouble.

• 20:36Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. So without cryptocurrency, would this be even harder again?

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think without cryptocurrency, a lot of cybercrime that happens these days would be a lot harder. Because the great thing about crypto, of course, if you're a cybercriminal, is that I can steal crypto or I can extort crypto from someone. And then it goes to my wallet and people don't know who I am. No banks can stop that. And if I can find a way, and it's becoming harder now, but if I can find a way to launder that Bitcoin, I can get it out of the system, turn it into money I can use. Happy days. If without Bitcoin, you get things like bank card fraud, that kind of thing. And we did see that in some of the early days of hacking. But of course, that's easy to trace and track and stop if you're a bank.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  And one of the guys in the book, the main hacker that we follow, who started as a teenage cybercriminal, ended up becoming one of the most wanted criminals in the world. He started by carding, which is where you take credit cards and you use the numbers and the details to spend without the owner knowing. And the banks usually reimburse the owner. And what's interesting about that is, when they first arrest him and they're going through all the bank receipts, they work out he spent about 33,000 euros, which you'd think like, that's quite a lot of money for, I think he was like 15, 16. And when you look at the things he's spending the money on, it's of course what you would do.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  We've both been 14, 15 year old boys. It's PlayStation games, it's the latest phone, it's Netflix subscription. He even went and bought some land. He brought like a little bit of land.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  He called himself a lord, like his Highland titles.

• 22:26Speaker 01

  And that's what you would do if you had unlimited money. But of course, the problem with that is, when you get arrested, it's all there and the police have got it all. And you know, it's very hard to hide from, whereas cryptocurrency makes that way easier. The other way that you could do it, I'm not giving anyone any ideas because this is how some cybercriminals work, is through gift cards. So you don't say to someone, send me $200 in a ransom, for example. You say, send me $200 worth of gift cards. And then you can sell those online for 190. Dollars. So then you get, you know, you have to shave a little bit off each time.

• 23:02Chris Williamson?

  Oh, okay. That's interesting.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  But they're untraceable. So.

• 23:07Chris Williamson?

  Huh. Well, you've said teenage hackers are sort of a kind of digital cartel. Should we be thinking about them more like organized crime than bored kids in bedrooms? What's the tension there?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Well, I think um. Modern ransomware groups, for example, these really, really well-run, highly organized, um, money-oriented gangs like, I don't know, uh, Evil Corps or Lockbit, there's loads of them. Um, Conti was another one. They are like modern cartels. They are run with, you know, there's a, there's someone who develops the malware. There's someone that sends out the phishing emails. There's someone that does the extortion negotiations. There's 24/7 customer service on the Darknet websites for these things. But the teenage hacking gangs, they are slightly different. They're becoming more organized now with the likes of Scattered Spider. But it is a different type of culture. It's more of a hacking culture than a, than a hacking organization.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  I wouldn't necessarily put them in the same bracket, but certainly if you look at the um, the rise of the teenage hacking gangs, every single step of the way, they've been underestimated. There's a, there's a researcher called Alison Nixon, who is, she features quite a lot in my research. And um, she came up with this new phrase for these types of gangs. She calls them NPTs, which stands for Noob Persistent Threats. So they're newbie, they're noobs. But it's play, it's a play on this very famous and well-used term, APTs, which stands for Advanced Persistent Threat. So she's sort of poking fun at them, but she says, you know, they're not advanced, but they are persistent and they are a threat.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  And we should take them seriously. And to be honest, I've been doing this job quite a long time now. And, and we don't, we don't take them seriously. Every time there's a, a case like we're seeing right now in the UK, people are shocked. How can this be done by teenagers from their bedrooms? Well, we know from history that this is how they work.

• 25:11Chris Williamson?

  They've just rolled the dice enough times, they just keep on going.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, and also, they they don't really care about getting caught. This is the other thing about these these teenage gangs. Unlike the cybercrime gangs that are based in Russia or places where, you know, law enforcement in the West can't really get them.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  These guys are very grabbable, they're very gettable. In the last about year and a half, there's been six arrests of teenagers and sort of early twenties hackers that are thought to be from the scattered spider culture or community. Because they're in the UK and the US, and they don't they don't protect themselves very well. They don't actually disguise their voices when they call up IT desks pretending to be someone else, stuff like that, you know, like. It's called operational security, and these groups, these NPTs, are terrible at it because they don't seem to care.

• 26:02Chris Williamson?

  What are the patterns or dynamics about how young kids get pulled into these communities online? What's the typical trajectory of one of these people?

• 26:13Speaker 01

  It's nearly always the same. It's every single hacker I've ever met has had the same pathway. It's computer games, so Minecraft or RuneScape or whatever it is, forty Fortnite these days. Probably still Minecraft, it's so popular. So you you get into gaming and you play with your mates. And then you start wanting to be better. So you buy some extra bits for your character, or you find some shortcuts, some cheats. Then you find yourself on a hacking forum and you find ways to become better at the game and cheat the game. Then you find yourself sort of drawn away from the game and drawn towards more fun ways to have fun on the internet, i.e. hacking.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  And it always starts off as just a bit of fun. See, well, what happens if I type that in there? What happens if I go into this server over here? Oh, where am I? This is exciting. And then it's, oh, quick, you escape. Oh, that was that was wrong, I shouldn't have been there. And then it's, hang on a minute, what else can I do? And then it goes on from there. And then as soon as you start bringing money into it, Bitcoin, then it can quite quickly become serious cybercrime. And that's that is the path that I have personally seen, speaking to all the hackers I've interviewed over the years. But also the NCA, the National Crime Agency, in 2015, they did. A kind of massive research of all the convicted cyber criminals and it was exactly

• 27:35Speaker 01

  the same. It was step one, gaming, step two, gaming cheats, all the way down until serious cybercrime. So it is a cliche, but it's true.

• 27:45Chris Williamson?

  Hmm. Where are most of these people? You've mentioned Russia. I always say when I think hacking group, I just think, oh, it's the, what is it IRA or whatever in Russia or some-

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Oh, GRU.

• 27:58Chris Williamson?

  GRU, sorry, whatever.

• 27:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's loads of them, loads of acronyms.

• 28:01Chris Williamson?

  Uh, what is it? Where are all of these? You mentioned these two notable, or at least Scattered Spiders notable because they're primarily English speaking in the US and the UK, but that, that's a rarity, I guess.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  It is, yeah. That's probably why they're so interesting as well, because we're like, well, hang on a minute, they could be upstairs in, in, in, in the bedroom. So if you're looking at the, the kind of, if we take the whole cybercrime ecosystem, these are the people that are out to make money, defrauding, stealing money, extortion, ransomware, all that kind of stuff. They're, they could be anywhere, but the biggest gangs are organized and run, we think, from Russia, Eastern Europe. And we know this because there are lots of, lots of kind of like hints that you get. So for example, I spoke to a guy who deals with ransomware negotiations. And I said, how, how can you be so sure that they're in Russia?

• 28:55Speaker 01

  And he said, well, they speak and they plan in Russian on Russian forums. They work in Moscow hours and they don't ever answer you on public holidays in Russia. So, you know,

• 29:10Speaker 01

  there's a few hints there. But of course, the actual affiliates, the people that are carrying out the everyday attacks, we don't know where they are. They could be anywhere. And there was a very famous arrest of an IT expert in Canada, who was, you know, an upstanding citizen of the Canadian IT scene. And he was working for a Russian cybercrime gang called Netwalker. And I actually, on that one, it was really interesting because someone, one of my contacts sent me the negotiation portal for when Netwalker was extorting this university. And it was during the pandemic. And I was, over the course of about three weeks, I watched this negotiation, this extortion take place.

• 29:49Chris Williamson?

  What, what, what, what do you mean by the portal? Like a chat, like a private chat type thing?

• 29:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, so if you, um, if you get hit with ransomware, you'll have on your screen, on your computer, it'll pop up saying, "Hey, you've been hit by ransomware. Go to this darknet website, um, which is like a jumble of numbers and letters, .onion, um, and we can start the, start the, the negotiation." They always, it's really, really kind of like irritating and frustrating, but they always like frame themselves as, um, "We are here to help. Follow this link. We will help you. You know, we'll, we'll get you through this." And of course, they're the, they're the bastards who are trying to extort you. Um, but it was fascinating watching this Netwalker ransomware group extort San Francisco. Um, I think it was, it was, uh, the Southern California University or something.

• 30:39Speaker 01

  And they were like, "This is during the pandemic. We are working on a vaccine. Please, we haven't got any money. Leave us alone." And they're like, "How much you got?" And they're like, "Yeah, no, $750,000. That's nothing. I can't even buy McDonald's with that. Send more." And it ended up, they paid, uh, I think it was 1.2 million dollars to these guys. Anyway, so he turned out to be in Ca- in, in Canada. Um, but most, we think, if you look at the arrests, they could be anywhere, but they are normally based in Russia. Then you've got, um, North Korea. They are very, very, uh, big on the, on the hacking scene. But what's really interesting about North Korea is they're the only country that, that we know of in the world,

• 31:23Speaker 01

  that as well as doing cyber spying, which we all do, every country does it, UK and US all over it. But North Korea does that, plus they steal cryptocurrency and they are very, very good at it. They just stole, oh my, what was it now? I think it was like, I can't even remember. It was, it was, it was like 1.5 billion.

• 31:46Chris Williamson?

  The country, the country of North Korea or?

• 31:50Speaker 01

  The country of North Korea has a cyber team. That they've always denied this, of course, but they have a cyber team that is dedicated to making money for the regime by hacking. And they used to do banks, but now they do cryptocurrency companies. But they're unusual. Most countries don't have that. Most countries just have their cyber spies and they're out to project power, steal secrets. In some cases, they'll be used in military. So Russia, we know is hacked against Ukraine i- in the war, for example. But most cybercrime is done by criminals who could be anywhere, but are, yeah, largely kind of organized in Russia and Eastern Europe.

• 32:30Chris Williamson?

  Why is that area of the world such a hotbed? Have they got lax internal scrutiny from the law enforcement? Is it sort of side eye allowed by the state to try and fuck up everybody else? What's going on?

• 32:43Speaker 01

  Well, yes. So there's this golden rule, if you're a Russian cybercriminal, which is you do not hack Russia or former Soviet states. It's like a kind of unwritten rule. If you do, you get in lots and lots of trouble. And there was a cybercrime gang called REVAL or R.EVAL. And they were, they were allowed to kind of just run amok for years and years. Hacking left, right and center Western companies, causing huge amounts of problems.

• 33:14Speaker 01

  But then, so the story goes, they accidentally hacked Russia and then suddenly there were some arrests. So yeah, there is that kind of, that kind of culture in Russia. Obviously, the Russian government denies this every single time it comes up. There was this, this summit between Biden and Putin. When was that now? 2021, I think. It came off the back of some absolutely horrendous ransomware attacks. One of which was on against Colonial Pipeline, which is a really important part of the US petrol and oil. Infrastructure. And it meant that there was shortages at pumps and panic buying and there was no fuel going up and down the East Coast. So this conversation between Biden and Putin, according to him, was like, you've got to stop your people hacking.

• 34:00Speaker 01

  This is no good. And Putin was like, it's not us. We get hacked too. But the evidence really is not really there for that.

• 34:07Chris Williamson?

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• 34:49Chris Williamson?

  Right now, you can get the brand new Whoop 5.0 by going to the link in the description below. I'm heading to join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. That's join.whoop.com/modernwisdom. How close are we to seeing cyber attacks being treated as act of war?

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Oh, well, there's this, yeah, there's this thing called, I think it's Article 5 in NATO, which means that when you get attacked and it's a confirmed attack, then everyone else is, you know, piles in. And it's one of the founding, you know, parts of NATO, one of the tenets. And some people have said what we've seen in, in Ukraine, sorry, with the attacks against Colonial Pipeline and others is, oh, could this be Article 5? There was another attack on US government, solar winds attack, thought to be from Russia. People are saying, maybe that crosses the threshold. But I think people are very, very scared to bring cyber in the same, anywhere near the same kind of seriousness as a missile.

• 35:52Speaker 01

  When in fact, sometimes the damage can be, you know, can be. Just as bad.

• 35:57Chris Williamson?

  What was that one that tried to get, was it Iranian nuclear reactors and it waited around the Stuxnet? Can you tell me the story behind that?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  Oh, just like unbelievable. You have to take your hats off to them. So Stuxnet was a, an attack by, they've never admitted it, but Israel and the US against Iran. And they were very worried about the uranium enrichment helping to create nuclear weapons for Iran. So according to the, the story, the, the president at the time said, right, well, what, what can we do to slow them down? And someone said, let's, let's hack them. And the Stuxnet virus was so specifically and perfectly targeted that it only infected that certain system. And I think they spread it through USB sticks or something. They dropped them in the car park. Absolutely brilliant.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  It's dumb, but it works. That's what they always say in cyber. It sounds dumb, but if it works, it's not dumb. And it managed to get inside the system of this very specific machinery that they were using in the Natanz refinery. And it sped up the refinery centrifuges so fast that it caused, apparently, we don't know, because obviously Iran would never admit it, but we think it caused physical damage and potentially broke some of those centrifuges and slowed them down. We don't know how much it slowed them down. We don't know how much damage was done, but it's largely been, you know, hailed as one of the most impressive cyber attacks of all time.

• 37:33Chris Williamson?

  Didn't it, it was infected some insane percentage of computers around the world as well. Like loads and loads of machines had it, but it just, it didn't do anything. It was just, is this, is this computer attached to an Iranian nuclear facility? No. All right. Just chill out. Nothing for you to do. Maybe you'll get, maybe you'll meet someone in future that is, and it just did that over and over again.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  That's it. And it's really targeted, really precise. And there have been cases where a country is blamed for releasing something like that, you're, you know, an uncontrollable worm that's got out of hand. So there's this one called Notpetya, which was 2017, I think it was. And it was.

• 38:17Speaker 01

  Well, again, Russia would, uh, Russia would never admit this, but it was, uh, thought to be from Russia against Ukraine. And they hacked into a really popular accountant, accountancy sort of software that the Ukrainians used. And it was a worm that spread uncontrollably and it was a fake ransomware. So normally the thing comes up and it says, pay this and you'll get your, your files back. But with NotPetya, it was, it was a shredder. It was fake, even if you paid, you wouldn't get, you wouldn't get anything back. And that spread from Ukraine all over the world. Hundreds of countries affected by this. And it caused, they think, the most damage of any hack ever.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  I can't remember the figure now, but it was, oh. I know one company lost a billion, Maersk, the, the logistics company, they were back to pen and paper. So they had ships coming into harbors. They didn't even know what was on the ships. They didn't know how to unload it, where it was going. Absolute carnage and it cost them well over a billion. I can't remember the details of the rest.

• 39:20Chris Williamson?

  This is like the Wuhan Institute of Virology equivalent of a, a online worm.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Exactly. And you can't stop it. The only way to stop it is to inoculate all the computers so that if you get it, they don't get ill. It's like a, you know, vaccine around the world, yeah.

• 39:39Chris Williamson?

  What are the ways that cybersecurity firms find these sorts of hackers? Like what is it? I, I know TTPs is sort of part of this, but I don't know. I, if you're good, if you're good enough to construct a worm that does ransomware and scrambles and does all the rest of it. I have to assume that you're good enough to be able to hide your tracks. So it's, yeah, how, how do the security companies track down who caused it?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Well, a lot of it is, is follow the money. Because if you can follow the trail of, of, of cryptocurrency and Bitcoin, then you, you might be able to get them. But. Thinking about that, there's a part in my book where Julius Kivimaki, this guy that we follow all the way through, he gets caught. One of the ways that they find out it's him is because he does the biggest self-own in cybercrime history, an absolute monster of a blunder. Someone in the book called Antti Kuritu, who's a cyber expert, he says that everyone thinks that cybercriminals are masterminds when they're carrying out the hacks, but they're not masterminds at covering their tracks. They often get a bit lazy

• 40:48Speaker 01

  or a bit arrogant about that part of it, because operational security is really, really hard. So this guy, Kivimaki, he starts sending out, he's got all these, the patient data of psychotherapy patients all over Finland, 33,000 people, he's managed to steal all the notes from the therapists. So he starts extorting the company by releasing every day 100 new records. And yeah, this is the kind of stuff that you do not want on the internet. Like, the stuff you say to your therapist is the most sensitive information

• 41:25Speaker 01

  probably that you could ever hope that stays safe. So, day one, 100 records, day two, this is on the dark net, day two, another 100 records, day three, another 100 records. But then he says, "To make it easier for all the people on the forum, here's a bulk download." So you can download all 300 patient data notes instead of having to do one after the other. Then he goes to bed. And then what he doesn't realise is, he's accidentally uploaded the entire database of 33,000 patients. So he's given away all his bargaining chips, but also he's accidentally uploaded his entire home directory for his computer. So

• 42:06Speaker 01

  it's like, for example, I want to send you an email, I accidentally send all the emails in my inbox and all the attachments and every folder on my desktop as well.

• 42:16Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  So the police found this in the morning and they obviously downloaded it as quick as they could. He woke up and he realised that what he'd done and he starts deleting files from the server. The police find an IP address, which is an internet protocol, which is like, tells you roughly where the physical computer is. They find an IP address in that home directory, you know, accidental dump for a computer server, a cloud server company, which is only half an hour away from them in Helsinki. So there's this race against ransom man, that's what he's called, deleting everything as he's going because they've got this massive server that could potentially give them all the clues they need. They get to the, uh, the, the server farm, pull out the internet cable, severing ransom man from his server.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  I put it like this, it's, if you imagine a, a drug dealer, the cops are arriving, he's trying to flush all the cocaine.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  But then suddenly, I don't know that.

• 43:12Chris Williamson?

  They cut off the water or something.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Exactly, something like that. So he, he's, nothing he can do. So then, um, they had this, they had this massive server full of all the evidence they needed to track him down. It was a little bit harder than that. Um, he did, he did try and use aliases and that kind of thing. But there was just so much there on that server that led them back to him. And that's what led to, ultimately led to his conviction. So it's that kind of thing, those mistakes that, that can be made.

• 43:41Chris Williamson?

  It's [email protected].

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yes, that kind of thing. Yeah.

• 43:47Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah. Like if you're going to start the biggest online drug selling network in human history, make sure that your old forum posts aren't linked to your name at gmail.com.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  But that's a really good example, isn't it, of how someone's online presence can start, you know, innocently enough. You're building something, you're, you're a software developer, you're just asking for advice. You don't know that in five years' time, you're a massive mastermind.

• 44:15Chris Williamson?

  You've got to future proof yourself. Be careful what, be careful what RuneScape username you use in 2012 because God knows where you're going to end up 14 years later. Yeah.

• 44:25Speaker 01

  Okay, so we're giving advice now to.

• 44:28Chris Williamson?

  I'm, I, I welcome, uh.

• 44:32Chris Williamson?

  Internet overlords. My operational security is horrible. Okay, so another hack that I knew about, one of the most famous ones, the Christmas hack of computer games. And it seems like this sort of kicks off a lot of the story that you've been following. So what first drew you to this? What's the story behind Lizard Squad? Give me the, give me the overview.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, so 2014, Christmas time, there was a ginormous DDoS attack, which is a very low level form of hacking. It's like, I liken it to when Glastonbury tickets go on sale, everyone lands on the website and accidentally the website crashes. It's like that really in cybercrime. If you get enough traffic into a server or a website, you can bring it down. So the Lizard Squad were part of this, as I said earlier, this conveyor belt of these teen hacking gangs, these NPTs that emerged in 2010s. And they decided they were going to go after not just Xbox Live, but PlayStation Network as well. And I don't, I still don't really know how they did it, but they managed to bring these services down for hours and hours on what was, you know,

• 45:38Speaker 01

  the busiest time of year, Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, Boxing Day. So that was, coincidentally, like that was the first story I ever covered. And I went into the Sky, I used to work for Sky News, and I walked into the Sky News newsroom, I think it was like, very early on Boxing Day, or the day after Boxing Day. And they said to me, have you heard about this massive hack, these kids have done? What are you talking about? No. So then I looked into it, and I couldn't believe the power that these kids could wield. I found it absolutely fascinating. So my news editor came over to me and he said, Riley's called, who's the head of Sky News, he says, he wants a lizard on air tonight. So I was like, right, how on earth am I going to get

• 46:23Speaker 01

  one of these anonymous Lizard Squad hackers to do a TV interview in, you know, six hours, seven hours, whatever it was. So anyway, I managed to find one. And it turned out to be this kid who was, I think he was 16 at the time, 17, calling himself Ryan. And we did an interview and it was.

• 46:43Chris Williamson?

  Hang on, you've jumped ahead. How'd you find it?

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Oh, just like. Going after a person who says they're involved and then it turns out they're not, then another person, then another, I don't even know. I couldn't tell you how I got to him. But in, I went through, I know one of the people I went through was this guy called Vinny, who was part of Lizard Squad, it's kind of like an adjacent member. He didn't, he said he didn't really do anything for them and I believe him and he was cleared of all wrongdoing. And he actually lived in Twickenham, which was like three miles away from his newsroom. So, so he, he promised he would get me this, this, this kid, Ryan, who was a part of the, the gang that took out these, these gaming services. So anyway, I did this interview with, with Ryan,

• 47:27Speaker 01

  who it turned out was Julius Kivamaki. That's one of the aliases he used was Ryan. And I, I, that kind of really sparked off in my mind, this, this fascination I've had ever since with cybercrime. And I've tried to keep tabs on, on, on Ryan or Julius ever since. But then the trail ran cold because he disappeared for a while. So then when he pops up as potentially the person behind this ginormous hack in Finland on the psychotherapy centres called Vestamo, I thought, wow, he has had a career. And my money, Kivamaki is the most hated hacker in history.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Not just because of the Vestamo hack and, and the, the PlayStation and an Xbox one, but also there are lots of times in that, that sort of 10, 12 year cybercrime career where he's done some really hateful, nasty stuff to not only, you know, people that he wanted to go after, but fellow hackers as well. What like?

• 48:30Speaker 01

  So there was a Sony executive called John Smedley, who fought back a bit on Twitter against Lizard Squad. He was like, he wouldn't, he was, used to be a prolific tweeter and he, he sort of fired back some tweets against these kids and they didn't like it. So they went after him pretty badly and. One of the things that Kivamaki did was he found out that John Smedley was flying from, oh, I think it was from Phoenix to Houston or somewhere, I can't remember where it was. And he convinced the airline that there was a bomb on John Smedley's flight, and it had to get escorted by fighter jet to a different airport where he was questioned

• 49:13Speaker 01

  at gunpoint and all sorts, stuff like that. And there is a litany of situations and incidents where Kivamaki has done some really horrible things.

• 49:24Chris Williamson?

  What you said about what he's done to other hackers as well, what's in that list?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Well, there was a kid called Blair Strater, who I spoke to in the book, and Kivamaki led probably a three-year harassment campaign against him. Have you heard of swatting? Not swatting?

• 49:43Chris Williamson?

  Yes, yes.

• 49:45Speaker 01

  Where you pretend, you call up the police and you say, there's a

• 49:50Chris Williamson?

  Armed, whatever the fuck.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  I'm gonna kill someone or whatever, yeah. And the SWAT team arrive, and it's really dangerous, and people have died. So they would do that all day, all night, for months, against Blair Strater. They've also got this weird thing, which is still a thing now, I don't really understand it, but it's, when you get doxed, your documents come online. So that means that everyone knows where you live, your real name, all that stuff. So for a hacker, that's a pretty bad situation to be in if you're doxed, because the whole point of it is you're anonymous and you're powerful and you can disappear at any moment. So with Blair, they doxed him, and then Kivamaki and others would send him pizzas, Chinese

• 50:31Speaker 01

  takeaways, all these kind of deliveries. At one stage, a lorry load of sand and gravel arrived at his house. Personally, like, if a free pizza turned up at my house, I'd be happy about it. But when you talk to people who have been victims of this for months, it becomes horrible, because you are on edge the whole time, and the delivery drivers want paying if you haven't paid them, and they get annoyed with you. So, you know, that kind of harassment is not nice. There was an article written by another journalist called Kevin Roos, who interviewed the Strater family around this time when it was really bad. And the article was called Haunted by Hackers. And I've always thought that's such a good headline, because for Blair Strater and his family, that's what it was like.

• 51:14Chris Williamson?

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• 51:58Chris Williamson?

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• 52:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it's ruthless, man. Okay, so you sit down with this guy. You don't know, I mean, this is what, 2014?

• 52:16Speaker 01

  2014, yeah.

• 52:18Chris Williamson?

  The first time you do it. What stuck with you from that first interview?

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Just, just a complete lack of remorse, caring, smirking throughout the entire interview, a lot of honesty. He didn't sort of make up a sort of-

• 52:37Chris Williamson?

  So he didn't hide his face?

• 52:38Speaker 01

  No, not at all. Not at all. No, no, he turned up to the Sky News interview on Skype, fully didn't disguise his voice, his face, didn't, didn't, didn't give a damn.

• 52:50Chris Williamson?

  Surely that's a bad idea.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  This is what I'm saying. OPSEC is terrible. These NPT-

• 52:55Chris Williamson?

  That's, that's, but surely that's something different. That, to me, seems like operational security is covering your tracks. That seems more like a purposeful middle finger.

• 53:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Oh, yeah. And don't, and don't forget, well, you don't know this, and I don't know how far you got in the book, but at this point, Kiva Mackey was already under investigation. He'd already been arrested. He was on bail.

• 53:21Speaker 01

  So you've got to factor that in.

• 53:23Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  But, but, but, you know, Kiva Mackie, and there's a few others like him in the last kind of 10, 15 years, they're a different breed. So you've got the NPTs who don't care, they're out to cause chaos, get some money, bit of infamy. Then you've got the kind of Alison Nixon, the researcher I mentioned earlier, she calls them the centers of gravity. There are certain teenage hacking, hackers who they are, they, they are the center of their gangs and everyone follows their lead. And you don't necessarily have to be the most technical to be that center of gravity, but you have to be the most ballsy, anarchist.

• 54:03Chris Williamson?

  Charismatic.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Charismatic and, and you, and you don't care. And the thing about the, that Christmas Day hack was he appeared on, on the interview, fully face and voice. And yes, like it came, it came very quickly afterwards. There was a knock on his door by the Finnish police, but they never, they never got him on anything. All the things he told me, either they didn't find evidence or they were too busy on his other cases to, to look into it. But as far as I'm aware, and it's look, if you look at his, at his court records, none of that was taken into account with any subsequent convictions.

• 54:38Chris Williamson?

  Do you know what he did in between that and the mental health hack?

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Not really. I know that he traveled a lot. I know that he was carrying a lot of Bitcoin. I spoke to one fellow Lizard Squad hacker who he went out with in, in the Netherlands on a, on a jolly, and he was carrying a, a hardware crypto wallet and it had something like $50,000 worth of Bitcoin in. And that was apparently just his holiday spending money. And of course, that Bitcoin now would be worth something like 12 million, you know. But you're right, there is this gap in his story, which I, I would love to find out what, what happened. But the, the actual hack happened in 2018. So he stole the Vestamo database of psychotherapy

• 55:24Speaker 01

  patient notes in 2018. So there wasn't like a huge gap, it didn't go to 2020. But yeah, there was a gap. There are, there is a suggestion. By a Finnish journalist, which has yet to be confirmed and it's all alleged and you know, huge pinch of salt with this, because I haven't, we don't know if this is true, but he thinks that Kivamaki might be involved in a, in a, in a hacking, sort of hacking cybercrime thing that happened around that time, which was, Kivamaki aside, whoever did this, it's like the perfect crime. So what they did, I'm not going to say Kivamaki because we don't know if it was him, but what they did was, they found a website on the clear web, so

• 56:07Speaker 01

  that's the, the internet that we all know and love, that was advertising darknet drugs marketplaces. So it had links for the, the darknet links. So like, as I say, jumble of numbers and letters dot onion. He hacked into that and then changed the links for those darknet websites to his own fake darknet marketplaces, which had all the things you would imagine, like buy your Coke here, buy your MDMA here, but all the money going into that marketplace was going into his pocket. And I spoke to the police about this. I was like, if that is Kivamaki, why aren't you looking into that? Like, why isn't that part of your investigations now that he's behind bars? You know, aren't you investigating this?

• 56:53Speaker 01

  And the guy Marco Lepenin, the Finnish police officer, said, we haven't got any complaints. There are no victims. Because of course, no one's complaining. No one's complaining.

• 57:04Chris Williamson?

  The cocaine that I tried to buy on the dark web, I didn't receive my order for that.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's the perfect crime. The perfect crime. But anyway, I don't know who, I don't know who's behind that one. But there is some vague suggestion that some, that some journalists have made.

• 57:20Chris Williamson?

  How did he do the Vestamo hack? Do you know?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yes. It was, it took about four minutes. It was, it was awful. The, the security at Vestamo was terrible. And there have been convictions, the CEO has been convicted, he's appealing it, but the, the, the cybersecurity practices at that company were very, very poor. So he did a scan of open servers with no passwords.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  He logged in, saw it all there, downloaded it. It mu- it it must have been, well, no one knows why he did it in 2018, but then he didn't do the extortion until 2020. But my theory is, he couldn't believe his luck. He downloaded it and then sort of sat with it for a long time.

• 58:09Chris Williamson?

  Waiting to see if someone's realised.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  I think so, because of course, at some point, we don't know why, in 2020, um, he decided to extort the company.

• 58:19Chris Williamson?

  Ran out, ran out of Bitcoin to party with, you know what I mean? I need to, I need to fund the party fund.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  But that was, that's my other, that's my, the other really mysterious thing about this character is that, um, we don't know why he did it. Because apparently he did have enough money. Apparently he was and is very wealthy. The court fees alone, the lawyer's fees to try and defend himself, absolutely humongous. And part of his defence was, why would I do this? I've got loads of money. And then they say, well, how much money have you got? And he says, I can't remember. It's all in Bitcoin.

• 58:54Chris Williamson?

  It fluctuates by the day based on what the price of Bitcoin is. Um, so why did that hack hit differently? What was it about the, the Stamo hack that caused such uproar?

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Well, um, data breaches happen all the time. Data stolen from people all the time, from companies all the time. And to be honest, it's a kind of just like a little bubbling thing that happens in life all the time. And, you know, we, we kind of like, uh, take it for granted. There aren't many situations where people actually are badly affected by that. But when you've got a group of people who are already vulnerable because they're in therapy. Some of them have had horrendous lives, childhoods, some of them are children. Um, and when you get that kind of, in that kind of like insight into their lives through the patient, through the psychotherapy notes at the top, the therapist is writing down. Like I said earlier, that, I mean, that's kind of data is the most precious of them all, isn't it?

• 59:55Speaker 01

  So that in itself is pretty bad. Stealing that data is pretty bad. But then what happened? Next was run of the mill. So he went to the CEO of Astamo and he said, give me 400,000 euros worth of Bitcoin and I won't publish the data on the internet. That didn't work. So then he started releasing them on the internet on the darknet as I described, a hundred a day, which would have carried on if he hadn't have messed it up. And then after that, he went the step even further and he sent out emails to every single one of the victims he could find email addresses for, which is about 27,000 people. And they all received an email in their inbox on Saturday night after they got out of the sauna in Finland, because everyone has a sauna in Finland on a Saturday

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  night. And they saw in their inboxes, an email from ransom man saying, I have got your notes, pay me now, or I will put them on the internet. And if you can imagine the kind of impact that would have on you, or on me, that's horrendous. But you've got to put yourself in the position of people who are already in the lowest of low. And I spoke to lots of the victims and, you know, some of these people have still got PTSD. And some of these people are scared to leave the house. And the impact, the long term impact is absolutely horrendous. Although the evidence has never been presented, the lawyer that represents about 4,000 of the victims, she says

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  that two of the families have said that people have taken their lives over this.

• 1:01:29Chris Williamson?

  Did he send that extortion email after he accidentally leaked all 33,000?

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:01:37Chris Williamson?

  Right. Okay. So he-

• 1:01:38Speaker 01

  It was the last, a last roll of the dice to see if he could make some money out of it.

• 1:01:42Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So he face plat, he, [email protected]'s his own computer onto a server. The police realize it's 30 minutes away. They get in the car, they run down there, they unplug the computer, the internet from the servers. They now have the servers and they start to do cyber forensic stuff.

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, took a long time, but they managed to come up with a name. The funny thing was, of course, um, even before the servers, people were wondering, could this be Julius Kivimaki? Because he was so infamous in Finland by that, by that stage, as all the teenage stuff he'd done. And then, um, they, in two thousand, I think it's twenty twenty two, they decided they had their man and they wanted to start finding him, but they couldn't find him. So I think it was late twenty twenty three that they, no, it was late twenty twenty two that they, um, put out an Interpol red notice for him. So they didn't know where he was. They had a feeling that he was somewhere in Europe, but they didn't know where. So they put out that it's a bit of a nuclear option, actually, and a bit controversial because

• 1:02:52Speaker 01

  Kivimaki has always said, they could have just asked me and I'd have come back. Whether or not he would have done, I don't know. Anyway, so this, this Interpol red notice went out for him. And the detectives in Finland kind of just got on with other cases.

• 1:03:05Chris Williamson?

  I don't know what a red notice is. What is that?

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry. It means that, um, if you are found anywhere in the world, if you've got a red notice out for your arrest, they can arrest you like that. And then they send you back to wherever the, the Interpol red notice came from.

• 1:03:20Chris Williamson?

  Assuming you're somewhere that's got extradition.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:25Chris Williamson?

  Should have gone to North Korea, could have been arrested.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  That's his mistake. Um, so they put this notice out and then they kind of got on with other things. And then remarkably, there was this, uh, stroke of luck in Paris whereby, um, someone called in a domestic, uh, incident disturbance in the early hours of, I think it was February twenty twenty four. And the police, the French police went to the house and they were expecting it to be, you know, a, a woman being abused or something like that. And they opened the door and everything was fine and there wasn't any danger. Um, and this man sort of, it was after a night out, so I think he was a bit hungover and still asleep. They dragged him out of his bed and he, they just did some IT, uh, some ID checks.

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  And he was travelling on a passport for someone called Asan Armet, which is a Romanian passport. And they were like, well, hang on a minute. This guy is six foot four, green eyes, does not look like a Romanian called Asan Armet. So they ran some checks and somehow they unearthed the fact that this was Julius Kivamaki. So they arrested him on the spot and took him back to the.

• 1:04:35Chris Williamson?

  Do you know what the disturbance was?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Well, the call went out from a woman who'd been out with the woman and Kivamaki that night. And apparently there'd been a big row and she hadn't answered her phone and he was being abusive and aggressive. But then if you ask Kivamaki, which some journalists did afterwards, apparently it was someone who knew that he was hiding. And they did it deliberately to get police to know where he was. Again, not a very liked person.

• 1:05:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, he didn't seem like a good guy. Okay, so he then gets extradited from France?

• 1:05:15Speaker 01

  Back to Finland, yeah, back to Finland. And then so begins this months-long time period where they were putting together the case against him in time for the trial, which was in 2014, no, 2024, sorry, and led to his conviction.

• 1:05:33Chris Williamson?

  And what was the court trial process like? Claims, defences and the sentence and all of that?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the police had a giant folder of evidence against him, not only for the hacking, but also for the blackmail. It took police ages to get that evidence together for the actual blackmail part of it because they had to go to, they wouldn't say which US tech giant, but they had to go and kind of get some evidence from them. And it literally took like 18 months for Google or Amazon, whoever it was, to send back some details about it. But that was one of the crucial pieces of evidence that they needed. And eventually, yeah, he was convicted in Finland. They don't have juries, they do it all by judges, there's three judges that decide. And they found him guilty and all counts.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  But what was really interesting is that every single time that it's said in the paperwork,

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Kivimaki either by himself or with others. So every charge came with that because they're never quite sure whether or not he did it on his own or not. They think he might have had help from somewhere, but they don't know where. There's some discussions right now happening in Finland like this week about whether or not there's a suspect in Estonia that might have helped in some way, but we don't know. But the conviction happened. They said they didn't have anything that. They said that in the totality of the evidence, he's guilty. But if you take each individual one, they couldn't quite pin him on each individual one. It's a strange thing, but the prosecutors are very happy, the police are very happy. They said that they took everything kind of holistically and said, right, yes, he did it.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Because of all these bits, none of them are kind of like a smoking gun, but all of them together were enough to convict him.

• 1:07:25Chris Williamson?

  What was your reaction to the arrest and the trial and stuff as you were following this going on? Because obviously this was, you know, a decade after you first sat down with this guy. There must have been a slightly, I don't know, out of body experience for you to see it occurring.

• 1:07:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was bizarre because I just had a feeling all those years ago that this kid would be worth watching. And there were rumours at the time that he'd kind of fled with a stash of billions of Bitcoin and stuff. And I've always been fascinated about what happened after the lizard squad takedown at Christmas. And being in the courtroom, seeing him as now, I think 26, 27 years old, still cocky, still smiling, still not really caring about anything was absolutely fascinating. There was this bizarre moment in the trial where.

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  He applied for bail because he was in prison and he was having to leave prison each day to go to the courthouse. And he applied for bail to be released so he could, you know, be a free man until until the end of the case. And although the police objected because they were worried he'd be a flight risk, the judges agreed. So he was let out and then the police were like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? This is this, this, this guy is not going to be, uh, we can't pin him down. Why have you let him go? So they very quickly appealed and the judges were like, oh yeah, okay, quick, get him back in. He wouldn't come in.

• 1:08:54Chris Williamson?

  Nah.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  He disappeared. They couldn't find him.

• 1:08:59Chris Williamson?

  Where did he go?

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  Well, um, they, the police kept calling him and said, we, you've got to come back in, you know, court order. And he's like, I'll see you on Tuesday. This was like Saturday. I'll see you Tuesday when the case starts again. They're like, no, no, come in now. He's like, no, no, I'm fine. So anyway, they, they, um, found his social media handles or somehow like some obscure forum handle that he was using in the past. And he posted a picture of himself, his hand, holding a bottle of really expensive champagne. And they saw from the background that it looked potentially like a kind of Airbnb. And then they figured out that there's no way he could have got an apartment. He's not in any hotels, so he's, he's, he's like, there's very, only small places he could be.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  And they looked at all the pictures of all the Airbnbs in Helsinki and then got the right one, rang the doorbell and there he was.

• 1:09:52Chris Williamson?

  Holy fuck, they geogasered their way to finding him.

• 1:09:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but all the court cases I have covered in my, in my time as a journalist. People arrive in a suit and they're really polite and they try really hard to make the, the jury and the judges realize they're good guys, but just it's classic, you know, that's that character of that teenage cyber criminal who's just got away with it for so long.

• 1:10:19Chris Williamson?

  What is it?

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  He doesn't care.

• 1:10:20Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, well. But what is it about his psychology? Is he completely detached? Is this guy a psychopath? Does he, is he just really cocky and out for recognition? What do you think's driving him?

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  Well, one thing that kept, one word that kept coming up is sociopath. And it's really difficult and dangerous, I think, to kind of throw these things around. I'm not a clinical psychologist. I can't, I can't decide on that kind of thing. But one of the guys that used to hack with him back in the teenage days says that the thing about him was he just wanted to sort of see, watch the world burn. He just wanted to cause chaos and, and damage. One of the cops said that it's like the kind of guy who likes to get in a fight in a bar, but he can do it from behind the computer to protect his bone structure, which I always quite liked. But I don't know. I don't know. I, I'd like to sit down with him.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  I tried to get an interview with him during the trial. And, and, and he said yes, and his lawyer said yes, but the judge blocked it at the last minute. So I wasn't able to. And then we were talking on text and then he just stopped, stopped talking to me. That was about when he disappeared, actually. So maybe that's why he stopped talking to me. And I've tried many times to contact him while he's been in prison, but he, he, he won't answer my, my letters.

• 1:11:39Chris Williamson?

  Dang it.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  So yeah, he, he, he remains a bit of an enigma.

• 1:11:44Chris Williamson?

  How long's the sentence?

• 1:11:47Speaker 01

  Very short. He'll be out in probably a year and a half from now.

• 1:11:51Chris Williamson?

  You should have just waited to publish the book. You didn't need to publish it now. You, I mean, you can do a follow up. You're like the paperback. You're the paperback. Paperback can have a, yeah, a little appendix, additional chapter. That's the usual way that authors do it.

• 1:12:05Speaker 01

  With what's happening right now with M and S Coop and Harrods, I think there could be enough for another chapter when the paperback comes out.

• 1:12:12Chris Williamson?

  A, that's, we've just brought up a, we've doubled sales. We've doubled sales, haven't we?

• 1:12:18Chris Williamson?

  So I'm interested in this Maxim Yakabetz guy as well.

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:22Chris Williamson?

  You went and, and tried to track down. It seems like you have a, a penchant for trying to find Eastern European young men. And not, no accusation, but you, you do seem to have a skill for it. So what's the story of him and Evil Call and stuff like that?

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, so Evil Corps are the kind of OGs of Russian cybercrime. They were there from the beginning and they evolved as the cybercrime ecosystem evolved. And they've been kind of run and led by a family, the Yakubets family. And Maxim Yakubets was the most wanted cybercriminal in the world. There's a $10 million reward out for his arrest, him and his right-hand man Igor Turechev. So we decided in, I think it was just for the pandemic, so 2019, that we would try and go and find him in Russia. Because one of the things that I became a bit annoyed about was

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  that the West points fingers at these people, UK, US, and says, "Oh, they're cybercriminals, they're guilty, they've done this, that and the other. They've stolen $100 million worth of money from innocent people around the world." But you never hear from the actual cybercriminals themselves, you never actually, they never get a chance to kind of have their say. I know that sounds silly, but as a journalist, like, it's kind of like my job. And that's the bit that interests me, is like, hearing both sides. So I remember I was sat in the garden there and I was just like, thinking one afternoon, "Why don't we go? Why don't we try and find these people?" So we did. And we searched around Moscow and we got all the addresses that were known about them and

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  tracked down their supercars and tried to go to the garages that they were at. And I managed to find an address that we thought was Maxim Yakubets, but it was actually his dad. But we went there and his dad opened the door and we had this absolutely, for me, unforgettable interview with Yakubets Senior, where he was like, so angry with the West accusing his son of being a cybercriminal. And I was saying things like, you know, speaking through my producer, reporter, translator, like, "Well, how do you explain the Lamborghinis?" He's like, "Well, they could be rented." So how do you explain the quarter of a million dollar wedding? "Well, we don't know

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  how much it was. Have you seen the paperwork?" It's like, "Well, no, but I went there and spoke to the wedding organizer," you know. And he had an answer for everything. And what was fascinating about that, and what's become even more fascinating, is we went there in 2019 and put the documentary And I think it was, yeah, last year, the National Crime Agency gave us loads more information about evil core. And they said it wasn't just these seven or eight men. It was also the dad. He's a part of it. He's in some way involved money laundering.

• 1:15:17Chris Williamson?

  You met the mastermind. He was in front of you. You could have snagged him there and then.

• 1:15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that was, that was, that was an amazing trip, but I didn't enjoy it. It was the worst assignment I've ever been on. It was so. And I went to Ukraine as well during the war, but this was worse. The Moscow trip was worse.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  Well, you're in a, what is a, there aren't many countries that you go to that are kind of like adversarial countries that, that, you know, that, that are.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  They're not friends of the UK. And the BBC out there is seen as an arm of the British government, even though, of course, we're completely independent. So like, there's that. Plus, I'm going there to track down cyber criminals who we know have got links to the Kremlin. And it was really intimidating the entire time. We thought we were followed at one stage. We flew out to this place called Yashkaola, which is about a thousand kilometers east to try and find Igor Turashev. And we were convinced there were guys in the airport who we saw, who we then saw at our hotel. So that, that kind of thing, you know, isn't, isn't nice.

• 1:16:27Speaker 01

  And I'm here complaining, but really, the, the, the one that got off the worst was my fellow reporter on the story with me, Andrei Zakharov, who was and is a very talented cyber reporter. But he helped me out with the whole story and he was there the whole time. And maybe it was that, or maybe it was something else, but he was very quickly put on the enemy of the state list. After, shortly after that, and he had to flee the country.

• 1:16:57Chris Williamson?

  No way, because of the work that you did together?

• 1:16:59Speaker 01

  We don't know if it was that because he's done a lot of provocative to the Kremlin.

• 1:17:02Chris Williamson?

  Right, okay, okay. And the history of his history of pissing off the Kremlin.

• 1:17:07Speaker 01

  It was after that. He thinks that it was possibly the straw that broke the camel's back. But before he, before he decided to leave, he was followed around the entire city by some nasty looking men for weeks and weeks and weeks horribly intimidating for him. He is a superb journalist and I'm still friends with him and I know he's doing well now. But yeah, I, I can't complain about my, my handling or treatment when, when Andre had a really tough time.

• 1:17:34Chris Williamson?

  Wow, I got scared in a hotel. Wow. At least I get to stay in my country though. You know, at least I'm in my home country still. That's nice.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  I'll tell you though, when I got back, I installed a security camera system around my house because I was, I just started feeling a little bit intimidated because I once interviewed a guy who, he decrypts ransomware. So like when ransomware is deployed in the system, it scrambles your files. You have to pay them to get the key to unlock it. This guy Fabian Wasser is an anonymous researcher from a company called McSoft and he is so good at building his own decrypters that the hackers absolutely hate him. When he's searching through a piece of malware, he has found on more than one occasion, fuck you Fabian, stuff like that. They write you, they write in their

• 1:18:23Chris Williamson?

  In case he's looking.

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  In case he finds it. Yeah. Cause they hate him so much. And he fled his country. He fled Germany because he was so scared of, you know, some of these gangs are, are very, very rich and it wouldn't be much to drop, you know, 20 grand to go and get someone's legs, yeah, broken or whatever.

• 1:18:43Chris Williamson?

  Wow.

• 1:18:46Chris Williamson?

  What was the fallout from that CrowdStrike thing? Because you've just held up a cool toy model thing. So CrowdStrike, cybersecurity organisation, maker of cool figurines, but

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:06Chris Williamson?

  Also, also subject of a lot of bad press only at the start of this year. What, what, first off, what the fuck happened? And secondly, is this, is that, what was the comeuppance of that? Cause I kind of heard about it. It was a huge deal. Loads of shit happened and then nothing.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  Well, give it time. There are some big court cases against CrowdStrike right now. There are companies like,

• 1:19:33Speaker 01

  Oh, is it United, the airline in the US? Um, they are, they are trying to sue CrowdStrike for something like 7,000 flight cancellations across the day that the CrowdStrike caused the world to implode. So the CrowdStrike problem was, um, was it this year? This year has flown by. Maybe it was this year. Anyway, um, so they, they did an, they did an update for their, um, their CrowdStrike software and, and they're like an antivirus.

• 1:20:01Chris Williamson?

  It was a year ago, 19th of July, 2024.

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  Oh, it was, okay, last year. Um, and so CrowdStrike is a kind of like antivirus company, one of the biggest and best in the world, and, uh, used by some ginormous corporations, including United, to protect systems from cyber attacks. They did a really innocuous update where they sent through some really like tiny bits of information to keep the software up to date. It completely bricked the system. It caused the blue screen of death on something like, I think it was two and a half million computers around the world. And that's not just computers like we're talking on now, that's servers that run airlines, those kind of computers. So, um, yeah, the, the world went mad for, I think, like three days.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  No computers running, flights cancelled, uh, online services down, shops offline, massive, massive problems. It was like, uh, some sort of apocalypse was, was unfolding. But, um, we bounced back, we're still here.

• 1:21:08Chris Williamson?

  The best image that I saw of that was someone's smart fridge. The front screen of a smart fridge, which is, yeah, yeah, you got BSOD'd on a, on a

• 1:21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:21Chris Williamson?

  fucking Samsung American chiller. Um, yeah, it's just, you know, there is. Kind of like the uncanny valley, but the equivalent of that for smart homes. And I still don't think that we're out of the other side of it. I think that most houses would benefit from a physical switch on the wall for most things. And that a nice, quite simple up and down. Your fridge does not need an app.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:21:50Chris Williamson?

  I mean, look, Echo Water, that's a hydrogen water company that I love. I love hydrogen water. I think it's awesome. It's like a big revolution in health.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  What is it? What's hydrogen water?

• 1:21:59Chris Williamson?

  So it's a special type. I haven't got it here, but like, imagine that this flask was able to hydrogenate the water. So it's actually all self-contained within the, the unit itself. So it's a kind of hot thing. It'll be in the UK in five years' time. It's big in America. It's coming big in America. It'll, it'll transport over the Atlantic in about five years' time.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  I'm old to it.

• 1:22:19Chris Williamson?

  They have an app for your fucking.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't need that.

• 1:22:23Chris Williamson?

  For your flask and it allows you to change the color of the LED and it tracks how much water you've drank. And I'm like, it's cool. I love the product, but the app to me. And then there's, they did a battery update that you need to over the air update your flask from your phone. I'm like, guys, yeah, yeah, I know. It's cool, but there is a, there is just a little, this is. And I think, look, if, you know, CrowdStrike issues another update and I can't get my hydrogen water out of my Echo, Echo Water flask, I'm going to be pissed. So I think the, the way that you, or the way at least that this seems to be explained is that the hackers are always going to be out ahead of governments of,

• 1:23:04Chris Williamson?

  they're going to be coming up with increasingly innovative ways to circumvent both security systems and, and law enforcement to try and track them down. Is regulation ever going to catch up with how fast dark web hackers, crypto economy stuff can evolve? Like, is this, is there a, a light note at all here? Or are we just kind of in it for the long haul? Make sure that you've got a password manager downloaded.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think there are some things that we can do right now today that would make it so much harder for hackers, but, but we don't. Because there's a thing of like security versus convenience. So reusing passwords, keeping your software up to date.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Actually, you know, when you think about CrowdStrike, that was one of the things about CrowdStrike that was so bad was that the people that kept their software up to date, which is what we're being told all the time, they were the ones that got hit. If you weren't, if you hadn't have done the software update, then you were fine because it was that thing that that bricked your system. But no, generally speaking, CrowdStrike aside, keep your software up to date, do two factor on your or multi-factor. Good passwords. And it sounds so obvious and I'm bored saying it and I know I can see you falling asleep, but if we all did this, then the world would be, the cyber world would be a safer place, but, but we don't. And there's a lot of things at the moment about, you know, quantum computing and AI and deep fakes and stuff and how

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  this is how the hackers are getting in these days with all these whiz bang new things. They're not. If you look at the list of how hackers are getting in, it's the same old stuff. Someone said the other day that nothing, nothing in cyber has changed for 20 years.

• 1:24:49Chris Williamson?

  Social engineering, find a person who's prepared to let you into the system, go from there. Yeah.

• 1:24:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, but also, you know, that, that, once you get in, they're not using the, the latest and greatest techniques to, to, to move around a system. They're going through something that should have been patched a year ago or, or two years ago.

• 1:25:09Chris Williamson?

  How much truth is there to this? Quantum computing will be able to make all encryption totally obsolete because it can work out prime numbers in this split of a second and everyone's fucking Bitcoin is going to be owned by one guy and all of our passwords are going to be released.

• 1:25:30Speaker 01

  Yes, they, they call it Q day, the day when the quantum computers can break encryption. And there's this thing called, I think it's something like grab now encrypt later or decrypt later. So the idea being that if you, I say harvest now and decrypt later. So if you're a spy agency, for example, China or the UK or the US, you can grab all of this data that at the moment is encrypted. So all the most important vital communications are done with really high grade encryption. So if I'm, if I'm President Trump talking to Prime Minister Starmer, we will talk on a really, really secure line, which if I grab that, it just comes out as gibberish.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  But if I grab it now, I might be able to make it un-gibberish when Q down.

• 1:26:18Chris Williamson?

  Oh, fuck.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  That's the worry is that, yeah, was that Q day will mean that kind of thing happens. But um, I'm trying to be positive. It is, it is a concern. The National Crime Agency recently put out advice saying like, the deadline is 2030. I think they said you need to get everything encrypted in a way that is post quantum encryption safe or post quantum safe now because of what I just described.

• 1:26:53Chris Williamson?

  Uh, I'm just having a look here. This is a friend's, um.

• 1:27:00Chris Williamson?

  Uh, a job advertisement for the new head of cybersecurity at His Majesty's Treasury in Britain provoked derision because of its stated pay of fifty seven thousand pounds a year.

• 1:27:12Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:27:13Chris Williamson?

  That was the total annual salary, around about seventy thousand dollars for the head, the head.

• 1:27:22Chris Williamson?

  Of cybersecurity of His Majesty's Treasury in the UK.

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a big problem.

• 1:27:29Chris Williamson?

  Have we considered low pay as a vector of risk? Like just disgruntled workers as a potential, you know, I mean, you don't.

• 1:27:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, they call it, they call it insider threat. They call it insider threat because sometimes there will be people in high levels of power who could be corrupted. But, you know, that, that's, I don't want to start, you know, I think that's rare. That's a rare thing that we see. They think potentially this is all alleged and all, you know, um, reports have come out. So I'm not saying this is, this is what's happened, but there's a big thing at the moment right now with Coinbase where lots and lots of people have had their crypto stolen or exposed and they think that might be insider threat. But, um, yeah, you, you mentioned the salary there.

• 1:28:20Speaker 01

  The problem with, with cyber jobs is that you can get paid a lot of money, but not really in the public sector. It's all in the private sector. But of course, we need, we need very good people to be in the public sector, protecting the way more important stuff.

• 1:28:36Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, Joe, you're fucking awesome, dude. You're really great. Books, fantastic. You're a wonderful communicator. Where should people go? They want to check out all of your stuff.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Oh, it's, it's, um, yeah. So my book is called Control Alt Chaos. How Teenage Hackers Hijacked the Internet. And it's out on the third or the fifth of June. The book launch is the third of June. That's why I got confused. And then it will be in all the usual places and on, um, on audiobook as well. And it's also coming out in Finland and it'll come out in the US in January as well.

• 1:29:08Chris Williamson?

  Hooray, dude. You're brilliant. Good luck doing more investigations. I look forward to speaking to you again when you've found some more awful people from the Eastern Europe that we can talk about stories to do with.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Thank you, mate. Thanks for having me on.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  Hello.

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

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