A Hacker In Your Pocket | How Your Smartphone Is Short Circuiting Your Brain

Jonny and Yusef from PropaneFitness.com join me as we discuss the topic of phone addiction. The problem of excessive tech use is almost universally acknowledged by pretty much anyone with a smartphone, but very few of us are aware of the teams of software engineers, warehouses of supercomputers and decades of research goes into manipulating you to click that link, watch that video or download that app. An argument is often made that technology is neutral and that it is our decision of how we use it, but our phone's intrusion into our lives is so calculated and manipulative that the deck is stacked firmly against us making a choice we're fully in control of. I genuinely believe that Humane Technology and Ethical Persuasion will be a huge topic over the coming years, hopefully we can kickstart your interest into the subject here... On this episode, learn the tactics used by social media websites to manipulate you to stay on site, discover our favourite strategies for taking back control of your phone use and find out why you definitely shouldn't buy a dildo on Facebook Marketplace. Extra Reading: Distraction Is Destruction Podcast (YouTube) www. HumaneTech.com Newsfeed Hider For Chrome Moment App - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/modern-wisdom/id1347973549 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0XrOqvxlqQI6bmdYHuIVnr?si=iUpczE97SJqe1kNdYBipnw Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - I want to hear from you!! Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Email: [email protected]

• 0:06Speaker 0

  Hi friends. So it's been a couple of weeks since the last episode. I know that I promised I was going to do one every single week, and I've uh fallen within the first month of that. However, I have a good excuse. I was away in Palmer on a yacht and then in Dubai with my dad. It's a hard life, I know. This week I'm sitting down with Yusuf and Johnny from Pro Pane Fitness, and this is probably my most anticipated episode to date. And I say mine, I mean by myself, not by anybody else. Um we're going to be discussing the ethical use of technology and how social networks, social media manipulates our cognitive biases and uses unseen persuasion techniques to keep you on site.

• 0:53Speaker 0

  Now all of this might sound a little tinfoil hatty, but I promise you it's not. It is, as far as I'm concerned, probably one of the biggest and most important issues that we've got going on at the moment. If you think about how ubiquitous phone use is amongst everybody on the planet. The Cambridge Analytica scandal, which recently came out where it turned out that some users on Facebook's data had been illegally acquired and manipulated, caused absolute uproar, and all that was happening there was people were being targeted with ads, and some of their data had been stolen. Your phone is stealing your time, and that's the one resource that we can't get any of it back.

• 1:41Speaker 0

  That to me is a much bigger scandal that needs to be spoken about. Our phones are with us more than any partner, any friend, any family member, any pet. Probably any other item that we own, they're with us every single step of the way, and they're possessions that we cherish to a degree, and that we live our lives through. They're a window between us and the world. They mediate our experience of the external world, and they manipulate our experience and our judgment of other people, both celebrity and friend. It's something that we put an awful lot of faith into. And yet our brains are being hacked by billion dollar companies, and behind every press of every button on your phone, there is a team of software engineers who have manipulated you into pressing that particular button in order to keep you on site because they need your attention because that is how the money is made on that particular platform.

• 2:46Speaker 0

  So hopefully you'll come out of this understanding the tactics that are being used to keep you on your phone. You'll be more aware of why and how this is happening, and also we will give you some tips and some strategies that you can implement to mitigate the amount of time that you get trapped within your phone. So without further ado, here we go.

• 3:14Speaker 2

  Someone was selling a dildo on Facebook Marketplace yesterday. Rampin' Rabbit.

• 3:20Speaker 1

  Is that the thing where you said I might have sent it to you, but you said when you say it's not being used. Yeah,

• 3:26Speaker 2

  well, I mean, why why else are you selling it? Like who hasn't been

• 3:29Speaker 1

  used.

• 3:30Speaker 2

  Maybe it was a gift, and they thought

• 3:32Speaker 1

  Yeah, they have two of them.

• 3:34Speaker 2

  Still, I wouldn't trust it. I would I mean someone

• 3:37Speaker 0

  could have been purchased too thinking that they wanted that. They bought it online and they didn't. They overestimated their sexual appetite. I

• 3:48Speaker 2

  see. So either they double tapped the add-to-cart button. Or they tried it, didn't like it. Either way, I'm not putting it in my vagina. I think it's a

• 3:58Speaker 0

  Well, it's not just the vagina, is it?

• 3:59Speaker 2

  Potentially. Or or bum, yeah, you're right. Anyway,

• 4:03Speaker 1

  that's what's that's what's so great about them.

• 4:04Speaker 2

  Yeah, we shouldn't discriminate. I think that's very judgmental of us to assume vagina.

• 4:10Speaker 0

  Judgmental on who people that prefer anal.

• 4:13Speaker 2

  Yeah.

• 4:13Speaker 0

  People with or without vaginas. You need to be nice to docking. Could use it for docking, use the second one for docking.

• 4:21Speaker 1

  Can you explain in the clearest possible way what docking is?

• 4:26Speaker 2

  When a man interpenetrates another man with his

• 4:30Speaker 1

  with a tool.

• 4:31Speaker 2

  A tool. Urinary track. With a device. Yeah. Essentially.

• 4:37Speaker 1

  Interpenetrates.

• 4:39Speaker 2

  So he places his appendage.

• 4:50Speaker 2

  Into another man's appendage. So is that right? I'd I mean you'd think it wouldn't be possible. I thought I thought can tell you about program. Oh motherfucking

• 5:01Speaker 1

  boss. So when you say appendage, you don't mean I see what you're saying.

• 5:05Speaker 2

  Not not entire package. Just yeah.

• 5:08Speaker 1

  Right. Lif on lip. Or not.

• 5:13Speaker 0

  I'm not sure if it's I thought I thought this. Is it

• 5:15Speaker 1

  penis on penis? Is that what you're saying? Yeah,

• 5:16Speaker 2

  penis in penis. Yeah, so

• 5:18Speaker 1

  lip on lip on lip.

• 5:19Speaker 2

  What's lip on

• 5:19Speaker 1

  lip? The little lip entrance at the top of the penis.

• 5:23Speaker 0

  Is that the you maybe don't know that the first one is that the politically correct non-rationalist don't be rich? I suppose if it

• 5:32Speaker 1

  if it looks like uh sort of like an old toothless old man from all of the

• 5:40Speaker 0

  gods. No, it's fine. We can just go from now. Hi. Hi there. Hi. Hi.

• 6:03Speaker 0

  Um so it's a podcast I've always do for ages, but we keep on having put it off for different reasons. Um we did a podcast called Distraction is Destruction. Excellent podcast. Excellent podcast. PropameSous.com. Forward slash forward slash distraction. We'll change the link for you. I can't remember.

• 6:24Speaker 1

  Was that the one with the

• 6:25Speaker 0

  Yeah? With the arm with the arm things. So basically we we all are trying to reduce our phone time. Well, this is what about a year ago, maybe? Trying to reduce our phone time, and um decided to do a podcast on how it felt when we use our phone too much and tactics that you can do to reduce that. That to me felt like my first Christmas, and over the last six months, all of the stuff that I've learned feels like finding out that Santa Claus isn't real.

• 6:54Speaker 1

  That's as in it'll a lie to keep you inside and you can't get out.

• 7:00Speaker 0

  Just the odds are stacked against you with. I've just entered into this world like a year ago of phone use is maybe something that I need to consider a little bit more deeply than I have done. And then now it's just opened up this entire world of cognitive bias manipulation and persuasive techniques and a whole load of other stuff. Um

• 7:19Speaker 1

  It's interesting because I used to really care about it, and I've just resigned to the fact that I don't care.

• 7:24Speaker 0

  I've uh without exaggeration, this is probably one of the top five passionate topics I've got in my life at the moment. Really? Yeah. Just

• 7:31Speaker 2

  using your phone less. Um I guess creating a You deliver things

• 7:36Speaker 0

  like that in such a way that I can't work out.

• 7:47Speaker 1

  Turn the game down.

• 7:48Speaker 0

  Just a little bit less gear.

• 7:49Speaker 1

  We once did uh a podcast where I've I've had my microphone set up just as I want it for ages. Yusuf came in, changed my game, and it ruined the entire fucking thing. It was like a half an hour video that was just wrapped. Sorry. It's

• 8:04Speaker 0

  fine.

• 8:05Speaker 1

  Yusuf was in the middle of mocking you for being passionate about phone news.

• 8:09Speaker 0

  But I'd it's not about the passionate about phone news thing, it's just I think that it's something that everybody it's so ubiquitous, the problem of using your phone too much. And the argument is that technology's neutral, it's how you use it that determines what the the outcome, so to speak, and that couldn't be further from the truth. That behind every click of a button, there's a thousand software engineers who have designed the particular route that you have taken through that app or through that website to get you to

• 8:40Speaker 2

  click on that thing. And it's uh very much more insidious. It's not even just them sitting and designing it a priori in a room on their own. It's like data-driven every time it every time there's iterations of thousands of people, it optimizes more and more to make you stay on the page more and more or click the button, or well, and

• 8:59Speaker 1

  they're

• 8:59Speaker 2

  split

• 9:00Speaker 1

  testing to

• 9:03Speaker 0

  it's it's a a combination of the best computers on the planet, the biggest supercomputers running all of the data that they can, and some of the cleverest software designers in the world who are setting them off on the right path.

• 9:17Speaker 1

  Yeah, and

• 9:17Speaker 0

  then you add into it the stuff like disinformation, this Cambridge Analytica thing that just won't go away at the moment, um, all of the fake news and stuff like that, and that's like to me personally, the fake news and delivering advertising that's curated heavily towards what someone thinks, that's like a drop in the ocean. That's yeah, it's manipulating what someone thinks, but time is the one resource that we can't get any any of it back, right? And manipulating someone to be addicted to using an app or compulsively checking the phone is uh like a fucking war crime. And we are in comparison.

• 9:55Speaker 1

  That thing you sent about dark patterns, yeah, really interesting. Did you watch that? Yeah. Really interesting. We're defenseless. I think a lot of it. On the Amazon website. So it's not an app, but like to cancel your account, you've got to go through like four hotel. And

• 10:10Speaker 2

  it's a really small print thing. I remember you saying as well that Amazon comes across as so innocent because it looks like it's been designed in 1999 GeoCities, like really kind of simple. So you think, oh well, they're such a benign company, like it's just a website where you buy things, and but actually

• 10:26Speaker 1

  it's a Death Star. I remember watching that video thinking. Like, you know, when you you know when you use something a lot, I'm trying to think of another example. So Facebook's another example where like you think the design's like pretty fucking like play school basic as well. It's like, guys, put a bit more effort in than a blue banner and a F in the middle. Like they own that blue now as well,

• 10:47Speaker 0

  don't they? Do they? You can't use that, no one can use that. It

• 10:49Speaker 1

  is a very recognizable blue.

• 10:51Speaker 0

  Wow. Fair point.

• 10:52Speaker 1

  But you look at it and think, so Amazon looks so basic, the website. Yeah, like everything's in really small font at the bottom, and then black and white, not so there's no moving adverse. Exactly. There's not much going on. And then you watch that the video that it walks you through what's actually going on in your like. We'll put

• 11:07Speaker 0

  links to the description in this. But basically, so it's all

• 11:09Speaker 1

  on purpose.

• 11:11Speaker 0

  For me, all of this got kicked off by a podcast between Tristan Harris and Sam Harris. Tristan. Um he is the founder of um Time Well Spent and the Center for Humane Technology, um, Humane Tech.com. I think it is that you can have a look at some of the more stuff about that. And basically, he used to be the design ethicist or design philosopher at Google, and he started asking questions about whether or not people are being manipulated ethically on their phone. So it fit this feels honestly feels like I'm like opening the floodgates to a world of shit. But really, like I genuinely don't think that there's a topic which can be more ubiquitous for people to need to know about. Like at the moment, it's for me, it's really, really important, and hopefully people find a little bit of value in this.

• 11:57Speaker 0

  Um so basically, I think it's like common I'd say it's commonly accepted amongst almost everybody, even like my mum and my dad know that they probably use their phones a little bit too much, and a perfect example of this. I couldn't believe it. So I've just been away at Dubai. I was at the top of the Burj Khalifa with my dad who hasn't been on holiday for 17 years. Wow. Right? So I'm nearly a kilometre up in the air, lion's share of a kilometer, 148th floor, largest, tallest building in the world, um tallest observatory platform in the world, and we'd got up there. Dad hasn't been on holiday in nearly two decades, right? And we've flown seven and a half hours and paid however much money and all the rest of it. And I went to the bathroom and I came back out to see that he was sat down on the couch on his phone, and I was like, Dad, what are you doing on your phone?

• 12:48Speaker 0

  And he was like, uh, oh, I'm just uh just answering some work emails. You do remember that this was your retirement trip, Dad. Your holiday was for your retirement, you're retiring and you're answering work emails, and I was just like, I mean, what a perfect example. And the thing is, so the argument is that little red circle on the pot. The thing

• 13:09Speaker 2

  is,

• 13:10Speaker 0

  does does he want to check his phone when he's at uh 148th floor of the Burj Khalifa? No, he doesn't want to check his phone. However, he has checked his phone. Does that mean that that's something he wants to do?

• 13:23Speaker 2

  It's wizardry, isn't it? Someone's made you do something that you wouldn't have if someone said, do you want to check your phone and check and respond to a work email? The answer would always be no, I don't want to check my phone and respond to my work email. But they've managed to still make you do that. You see, that

• 13:38Speaker 1

  that's the part where I don't know where I lie on that, because I I think I do want to check my phone. So I think a lot of the time. Like I we I was in Budapest with Becca, and the whole time I've got my phone in my pocket. If anyone had ever said it's said to me, Do you want to check the phone? Have five minutes to yourself. Go over there,

• 13:58Speaker 0

  check,

• 13:59Speaker 1

  woo So I think I think I'd be okay with it. I just know what

• 14:03Speaker 2

  you're getting at. But so I think what Tristan was getting at was the the present self versus future self, and it's like you sit on your phone and scroll the news feed for half an hour in the morning, but then if you were to ask yourself, was that time well spent, would you have wanted to spent today half an hour scrolling your

• 14:20Speaker 1

  news feed?

• 14:22Speaker 0

  Especially when you've got to consider, as we say, time's the one resource that you're not going to get any of it back, and you specifically as a person who likes to be as efficient as you can with his day, like the time that you spend on your phone, which isn't contributing directly to the objectives that you've got to complete that day. Who's made you choose? Is it leisure time? Does it count as leisure time? So the question is, and the main the main question of this is does it net a positive for you? Because if it nets a positive for you overall, then sweet. But the problem is that it's a zero sum game where all different platforms online are competing for our attention. So if YouTube adds autoplay, which they only done within the last 18 months or last two years, YouTube ads autoplay under the next video, that upped their um time on site by between five and ten percent.

• 15:13Speaker 2

  YouTube ads or YouTube videos.

• 15:15Speaker 0

  YouTube added.

• 15:16Speaker 2

  Added. Oh, okay, ads.

• 15:18Speaker 0

  Autoplay of the next with double thing. I mean, that's just an adjustment. That's just an advertiser. That's a that's a market, that's a marketer's mind there, isn't it? Yeah. Um so YouTube, YouTube added in. Oh my god, I need to I need to go and do this. Um YouTube added in auto-play the next video that increased their time on site by five to ten percent. There's only so many hours in the day, so that five or ten percent has come from somewhere, it's either come from someone's spare time or it's been taken from Facebook or Twitter or Google or whatever it is, and what that means is that Facebook now needs to do autoplay videos as you scroll down, they need to up their armoury. It's like an arms race, it's an arms race to see who can use the most number of manipulative cognitive bias uh affecting techniques to get you to get you to stay on site.

• 16:06Speaker 0

  And the fact of the matter is that the economy reflects the more time that someone spends on a site, the more value that company has because the revenue is generated through advertising, and advertising is mostly based on how much exposure people are gonna get, how much exposure is directly equal to how much time on site. If you can get people to stay on site, irrelevant of whether or not they want to, you make more money.

• 16:31Speaker 1

  Yeah.

• 16:32Speaker 0

  So

• 16:33Speaker 1

  a bit of shit when you look at it like that.

• 16:35Speaker 0

  An example

• 16:36Speaker 2

  that I think they think he mentioned in this, and it it definitely catches me every single time. And this is this really hurts my pride because I I see my I like to see myself as somebody who is it the

• 16:48Speaker 0

  gay porn.

• 16:49Speaker 2

  Able to is it's the gay porn I always

• 16:51Speaker 0

  find myself

• 16:53Speaker 2

  it's I I like to pride myself in somebody who can maintain cognitive effort on a single task, having meditated for so long, or at least tried to train for this thing.

• 17:03Speaker 1

  You you're easily the best person I know at that single thing, the best meditator, the best like single focus, like he's gonna do something. Can't you bought deep work and do it, yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 2

  And yet I am still defenseless against like okay, I need to quickly check when that person's birthday is on Facebook. Gone, and then 10 minutes later, you've closed the tab, you've done loads of other things, and you're like, hang on. I didn't even do the thing I went on there

• 17:24Speaker 0

  for. Every time. And again, this is this is not the the the one of the main points I want to get across during this podcast is that if this is happening to you, not only is it not just you that it's happening to, but it's not your fault. And I think that realising one of the main steps that I think needs to happen is that firstly people need to realise that there is a problem that if they were to look back at their day and portion out how much time they spend on their phone, that it is a regrettable action. Like, and this isn't me saying that people shouldn't use Facebook and shouldn't use Twitter and shouldn't use Instagram because it does address net benefits. A net positive for sure, and there is a consciously is there there is a there is a um a Goldilocks zone of how much time you should be spending on there and what you're doing with your time on there as well.

• 18:11Speaker 0

  But the problem is that these sites are designed in a way to manipulate your cognitive biases so that you do not leave and so that you don't do the thing that you went on there to do, so that you look at the ads so that you watch the video so that you do whatever. So I mean there's a couple of examples that are really really good. Variable schedule rewards are the dopamine release technique that slot machines work on. So you press the button, you wait, something's gonna happen. It's either something good or something that's neutral, usually. Twitter, if you open up Twitter on your phone now, press the button, I'll wait. And then you wait for the notifications to load, you'll see that the app loads, then your news feed loads, and then your mentions load with a number sometimes. Have

• 18:53Speaker 1

  either of you got because I don't have Twitter on my phone, so I've never seen this.

• 18:58Speaker 0

  But basically, basically all that happens is there's there's a there's a wait, there's a pause between that's on purpose loading up. Yeah, they could program it so that it occurred immediately, but they don't, and the reason is the amount of time it takes for that to load, so you've got a loading screen there, loading.

• 19:12Speaker 1

  God, that is painful, isn't it? Yeah, then that'll open,

• 19:14Speaker 0

  then that'll go, then that'll happen, and then you'll see how many men mentions you've got that come up. And the reason for that is it is the exact same amount of time wait that a slot machine takes.

• 19:25Speaker 2

  And you go, ooh. Ooh, I've got that.

• 19:27Speaker 0

  I've got I've got this exactly

• 19:30Speaker 1

  the same on Instagram. So that's so the the you know the alarm bell came up last.

• 19:35Speaker 0

  Yeah,

• 19:35Speaker 1

  that's that's why you wait because it it's that variable schedule reward what you so Facebook have started doing the same thing. Make sure you hold your

• 19:42Speaker 0

  breath. Look at Instagram, load up Instagram, and your news feed will load, and there will be a half a second wait between that and you know and your mentions and your um

• 19:48Speaker 2

  the red little tab coming up. So it's the same tactics that make casinos so compulsive and gambling so addictive that um seems

• 19:56Speaker 1

  so profitable.

• 19:57Speaker 2

  Yeah, so we we are addicted to random rewards. More so than predictable rewards, which I find absolutely insane. That you there was a study where they took a bunch of monkeys in a room, gave them made them do a bunch of tasks, and when they discovered one button to press, it would give them a banana. And they would repeat it, and uh and when they stopped that from happening, they stopped the they disconnected the button from the reward, the monkeys kept doing it for a bit, and then they stopped. Whereas on another iteration of the study, they gave the monkeys random rewards, and the monkeys started to develop weird rituals that they thought were creating the reward, but in fact it was just random, and they thought that if I if I didn't get a reward, then maybe I'm just not doing it right, and they'd keep it. I've got to

• 20:42Speaker 0

  walk this way around the tree, I have to do this with the button at this many times.

• 20:45Speaker 2

  We'll develop these weird rituals, but then when they stopped giving that random reward, the monkeys carried on for like a year afterwards or something, or something really rats.

• 20:55Speaker 0

  They gave rats, they pressed a button and it gave them a tiny tiny amount of cocaine. One of them was I think I've used this example before. One of them was a fixed number of times, one of them was press the button and it came out once and never again, and one of them was random, and the random rat iteration, they snap their spines pressing the button trying to get trying to get cocaine. And it's because this random this uh variable schedule reward is so powerful at dopamine dopamine release. Do you know why

• 21:20Speaker 2

  snap their spines? Do you know why?

• 21:21Speaker 0

  So do you know why um Candy Crush was so successful? Wasn't because of the game, it wasn't because of anything else, it's because of how it manipulated people's dopamine levels. It's the ability, it's it's the lights, it's the sounds, it's the numbers, it's the colours. So why is it why is it that our notifications on our phones are red?

• 21:38Speaker 1

  Yeah, yeah. So that so that's what red fruit just occurred to me there was that Twitter's aren't on the home screen, they are and

• 21:46Speaker 2

  Twitter's uncle. That

• 21:50Speaker 1

  is

• 21:51Speaker 2

  terrible.

• 21:51Speaker 0

  I've just spent I've just spent I've just spent a week with my dad, and that would be too daddy, even for him.

• 21:58Speaker 1

  Because I would normally say ant, but because you're so well spoken. Aunt. But immediately

• 22:03Speaker 2

  armed. And the uncle and the

• 22:05Speaker 1

  nephew.

• 22:07Speaker 0

  Mother, father. So I think what's great grandparents. One of the interesting things that you said there was about going onto your phone and trying to stick to the task in hand. Like the the rabbit hole that you tumble down, like before you know we always everyone makes the joke. Oh, absolutely. Everyone, everyone makes the joke about you know, like you start watching videos on YouTube, and then three hours later you're watching cats like climb up a tree. Like, well, is that time line is that time well spent? No, of course it's not. Like, how is this? It's literally stealing people's lives. Taking people's lives. Fuck. I'm aware that I'm being sort of fairly fairly virulent about this. But

• 22:47Speaker 1

  you did it again. I don't know who's taking the piss about. What the f what the fuck? Yeah. Whether it's like

• 22:54Speaker 2

  no that that was in earnest. Uh so it it's the it it I think just when you put it like that. This is gonna just devolve into dad jokes. I'm ready for I'm ready for that.

• 23:08Speaker 1

  Have you ever done the thing where uh Mark Manson first mentioned this where you're on your laptop, you're on Facebook, and you have this moment of like, no, I'm fucking wasting my time, close the tab, open a new tab, www.f-a-c-e. But it literally, it's literally happening, it happens to me all the time. Well, that's I just thought it off Facebook. It's deeply on the phone. The number of times

• 23:29Speaker 0

  the number of times I think that I think the phone is even worse than laptop. You do a lot of work. I know that you two both try and get yourselves off your phones as much as possible. But the phone is it's so idiosyncratic, and I think that's a big part of it. Like, I know friends who have got a cycle that they move through, and the listeners might do as well. They know, right, okay, I'll go top left first because that's Instagram, I'll clear off everything on there, then I'll go into Facebook, I'll clear off everything on there. But in between all of these, you're answering and replying anyway. So by the time that you've gone through Snapchat and WhatsApp and everything out, Messenger and all the rest of the things, you've

• 24:01Speaker 2

  actually got responsible. Number one's

• 24:03Speaker 0

  pop back up again, and you're like, right, okay, well, this is just a fucking

• 24:06Speaker 1

  this is just an endless loop. Um it probably gets worse. It's probably you've just fanning the flames of a fire that'll never

• 24:11Speaker 0

  absolutely because it it what it's created, what social media has created is uh sense of missing out.

• 24:17Speaker 1

  Yeah,

• 24:18Speaker 0

  that there is stuff happening all around you all the time. Like, but until you open up Instagram and see that your friends are away on holiday, or see that all of your buddies have gone out to the pub, or whatever it is, you don't have that desperate sense of I'm not part of it. FOMO and by logging in, logging uh checking your news feed, you almost begin to start to mitigate that sense of missing out a little bit. So like I say, I don't want to I don't know, I want it I want it to be very very serious because I do think that it is, but I don't want people to feel like they're culpable for it because the techniques that are being used that manipulate your cognitive biases and not that it's not things that are part of your control. A good quote from the Tristan Harris and Sam Harris, there are many things that are bugs, not features about the human mind, and those are the things that are being manipulated.

• 25:08Speaker 0

  You're not being encouraged to do things, your mind's being hacked. And that's the reason that you're staying on site. That's the reason that you're not doing the things that you're supposed to do.

• 25:19Speaker 1

  The trouble is you think there's a way to stop.

• 25:24Speaker 2

  You you stun you probably then have to start defensively using your phone with equal force and thought as the people who are trying to

• 25:34Speaker 0

  so you need to recruit a team of a thousand software engineers to supercomputer

• 25:38Speaker 2

  to split test you to use your phone left.

• 25:40Speaker 1

  It's me versus billion dollar valuation companies in tech in Silicon Valley.

• 25:44Speaker 2

  Yeah. So we well, we talked a little bit. I back myself. Yeah, exactly. We yeah, in well, in the last episode with of Distraction is destruction, we covered a few of the tactics that we use ourselves to try and battle it slightly. So Chris was talking about moment, the app that uh you set the timer limit on your phone, and when you go over it, it gives you a really annoying bell. I just ignore it. You just ignore it. I've

• 26:08Speaker 0

  stopped using I've stopped using that. So the I would I would advise everyone who's listening to download moment, it's free. Um it's on our iOS and on Android. Unless you want the proper one. Unless you want the pro version, which we've got. Which all of us have got because we're pros at not using our phone. No. Of course. If you haven't got to

• 26:23Speaker 1

  crow, you'll get it because you'll email them and ask for it for free. Yeah, that's fine, and they'll and they'll do it as well.

• 26:29Speaker 0

  They will do it as well. Oh, you use it from propriet fitness, you were on our mailing

• 26:33Speaker 2

  list. The the the other tactics I think were so for me, WhatsApp is on the sixth page of my apps under a folder called C U N T times 10 in capitals, so that when you go to it, you're like, oh, such a dingus. You just yeah, it makes it just so that you feel the pain of the phone. I think I think that I think

• 26:55Speaker 0

  that we can probably run through some of the the best um the best tactics that you can use to use your phone less. I do want to try and slot in um the most insidious tactic, I think that any of the any of these social networking sites have added in, which is Snapchat snap snapstreaks. Do you know what this is? Is that

• 27:12Speaker 1

  where you get scores based on how many times you've sent a personal snapchat?

• 27:15Speaker 0

  Back and back and forth between

• 27:16Speaker 2

  someone,

• 27:16Speaker 0

  but it only it resets if you miss a day.

• 27:18Speaker 2

  I find it interesting that you you find this the most insidious one because I because I know they said that they thought Snapchat was the biggest uh exploiter of these tactics. I

• 27:28Speaker 1

  just think it's

• 27:28Speaker 2

  shit.

• 27:29Speaker 0

  But you don't understand you don't understand it's it's like seventy-five percent of communication online between people under the age of 15 is done through Snapchat.

• 27:39Speaker 1

  The snapstreak

• 27:40Speaker 0

  the snap streak thing. So I heard this story, right? People go these kids will go away on holiday with their parents and they'll give their logins to a friend who's back in the UK so that they can continue to message their friends backwards and forth, their other friends just to keep the snapstreaks going. And like there's people with like thousand thousand day snapstreaks of having to message, so that's forcing someone to go back and forth. And I remember uh one of my main one of my mates had an argument with his missus because he broke uh the the snapstreak between them. And you're like, is there anything more inane than that? So like having of all the things that you could have an argument over, like the magic is

• 28:16Speaker 2

  lost as well.

• 28:17Speaker 0

  Because if you're forcing someone to have contact that they wouldn't necessarily have. Oh do you know what you did today, Yusuf? You ruined our forced communication number that judged how many times we had to send a message to each other when we didn't want to. So yeah, it cheapens it in the first place.

• 28:34Speaker 2

  But when you break the streak and you just get your head above the water for a second, it's like so like when when I I broke my My Fitness Power's like 500 days or something, and then when I did, I was like, you know what? Like nothing's burnt down. I can't it's fine.

• 28:47Speaker 1

  See, I felt like everything I burnt down.

• 28:49Speaker 2

  Really? So I was on

• 28:51Speaker 1

  I was knocking on the door of a thousand, did a did a power lifting competition, the Hearst Welfare Centre in Ashington. There was no reason for a total dead spot for all communication, look tracked everything on the day of a powerlifting move, got home, realised that it hadn't synced before midnight.

• 29:07Speaker 2

  Wow.

• 29:08Speaker 1

  Lost what a killer. Never get back. In

• 29:12Speaker 2

  Ashington. So Ashington, if you listen to this, guess the Wi-Fi. For fuck's sake. It's like bloody hell.

• 29:17Speaker 1

  It's like what Yusuf said about when you spend 500 pounds, you'll never you'll always be 500 pounds worth off worse off the rest of your life.

• 29:24Speaker 0

  I mean, that's the most useful analogy for any of this, isn't it? So if you never spend any money, you will always have one. Always

• 29:31Speaker 1

  better off, yeah. Yeah,

• 29:32Speaker 0

  always better off. He was so shaken by it,

• 29:35Speaker 1

  he's like that 900 pounds. I'll always be 900 pounds worse off forever

• 29:40Speaker 0

  for the rest of our That's how I feel about my My Fitness Pastory. Think of

• 29:44Speaker 1

  what I'd be on now. I

• 29:45Speaker 2

  was annoyed at that point. Whatever

• 29:46Speaker 0

  it is, whatever

• 29:47Speaker 2

  it is now,

• 29:47Speaker 1

  plus

• 29:47Speaker 2

  a thousand. It's because you you drive with you drive with a functional car into an MOT centre, and it's fine, like you drove them, and then you and then you drive away. You need to tell. And you're 900 pounds worse off, but there's no difference to You're still driving a car that's so yeah, but it was a it was a

• 30:03Speaker 0

  danger to other motorists. It was a 900 pound danger

• 30:06Speaker 2

  to

• 30:06Speaker 0

  other motorists.

• 30:07Speaker 2

  Supposedly. That's like saying you need breaks. But you know, you should have gone

• 30:11Speaker 0

  you should have gone. I warned

• 30:12Speaker 1

  you, you should have gone to our guy. I should. We've got a guy. That doesn't surprise me at all because we have a guy who looks it up and

• 30:18Speaker 0

  down, he kicks the tires a bit, he goes, I sound bad. That's fine. Fucking I'm

• 30:23Speaker 1

  off to my own.

• 30:24Speaker 2

  We have a saying in Egypt that breaks uh for pansies, so do you? No. But the the driving test in Egypt is drive ten metres forwards, drive ten feet backwards.

• 30:35Speaker 0

  Easiest place on the world to to pass your driving test, right? Yeah, if you buy it. Imagine it's carnage.

• 30:40Speaker 2

  It is. Like people it reversing up a slip road is a common manoeuvre. That's why you've got a dash cam. Yeah. Doesn't it?

• 30:51Speaker 0

  I thought it was so you could capture all of your dogging experiences on the front of your fun.

• 30:55Speaker 2

  Cairo has just been imprinted onto me and dogging, of course, but

• 30:58Speaker 0

  um you know how many uh hours of video is watched on YouTube every month. I'd love

• 31:05Speaker 1

  to know, but I don't know. Guess. Okay. Alright. Come on, Scott, in between us, we can put together a real- hundreds, hundreds of hours. At least at least an hour, I reckon. Well, that's just you,

• 31:15Speaker 2

  isn't it? Like between us, we would watch an hour at Tom Martin. Just of Tom Martin. Just at Tom.

• 31:21Speaker 1

  Probably the same video. Yeah. So what it what's the unit of time? A day. No, no, no, a month, in a month. A month.

• 31:28Speaker 2

  Well, let's let's figure out in a day. So I'll say. I'll just I'll just No, no, god damn it. You've asked us to guess, and I'll be

• 31:35Speaker 0

  going to follow up.

• 31:36Speaker 2

  Don't ask

• 31:37Speaker 1

  us to do

• 31:37Speaker 2

  something that you don't actually want us to do. Okay. Okay. Right. 500 million users daily or more. Probably more. No, okay, so

• 31:47Speaker 1

  it's probably a billion users, isn't it? Fine.

• 31:48Speaker 2

  One billion users daily, each one uh ten

• 31:52Speaker 1

  minutes.

• 31:52Speaker 2

  Ten minutes, okay. So there'll

• 31:54Speaker 1

  be some people there'll be some people who use it hardly at all, and some mega users.

• 31:58Speaker 2

  So 150 million hours per day times 30.

• 32:03Speaker 1

  That's fast maths, isn't it?

• 32:07Speaker 2

  Egyptian doctors. So let's say 4.5 trillion hours. Sorry, no, it's not. 4.5 billion hours per 1 billion.

• 32:15Speaker 0

  They recently celebrated 1 billion hours a month. Oh, well, that's really

• 32:17Speaker 2

  disappointing. Well, God's sake.

• 32:19Speaker 0

  Well, I mean, you got your maths wrong. Um, but yeah, they sell the recently celebrated uh a billion hours a month, which is like mental.

• 32:28Speaker 2

  It's that they they're celebrating wasting a billion hours of humanity. They could be educating. The argument is, and here's here's the here's the um see the ratios. It's here's the sort of the

• 32:38Speaker 0

  main thing, porn hub stats. Let's get onto that. We'll get porn hub stats up shortly. The the main thing is that inherently using your phone isn't a bad thing. It's only a bad thing if in retrospect you wouldn't have wanted to use it. This is the same analogy, and the best analogy that I can come up with is How do you know that though? Right, okay. So the best analogy that I can come up with is eating sweets, because what you want, what you want is not necessarily what's always good for you. Right. I want to eat the sweets. In retrospect, am I glad that he ate the sweets? No, I'm in a fucking deficit at the moment. Why would I have eaten

• 33:10Speaker 2

  those sweets? In fact, I I would argue that from the okay, let's say from half an hour after you've eaten the sweets forever in the future, you wished that you hadn't eaten the sweets. Half an hour after spending

• 33:25Speaker 0

  immediately after spending 900 pounds on an MOT.

• 33:29Speaker 2

  So like But you

• 33:30Speaker 0

  actually probably didn't want to spend 900 pounds in advance. Yeah, he never did.

• 33:32Speaker 2

  No. Yeah. So regressive. It's never at all now for

• 33:35Speaker 0

  a side.

• 33:36Speaker 2

  So

• 33:37Speaker 1

  let's get back to the sweets. So fucking bring it up, Chris. It's really painful.

• 33:43Speaker 2

  Developing a Twitch. So like if if someone said, would you have wanted to eat those sweets from last year or a month ago or three hours ago, you'd always say, I wish I hadn't. Because all they've done. Unless you fit your macros.

• 33:56Speaker 1

  If they fit your macros, again that's it. That's the

• 33:58Speaker 0

  there's a goldilocks zone for how much you can use your phone, right? Got it. Um, people need phone macros.

• 34:04Speaker 1

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 34:05Speaker 0

  Here's one of the big things, and it's that outrage online always travels further than positivity. And because of the way that the news feed optimization works, this is specific to Facebook. Outrage is more attractive than positivity. That means that you are more likely to click on outrage. All that the computer is then going to start feeding you is more of what you want. More outrage. Hang on. But what about the sweet analogy? I I I ate the sweets, but I kind of didn't want to eat the sweets, but I did kind of want to eat the sweets. I don't want to click on the outrage. I don't want to be delivered more outrage, but all that the computer's doing is delivering more of what its job is, which is to maximise time on site and to maximise click-throughs.

• 34:46Speaker 1

  Plus, when you have a suite, I think it creates the the immediate desire for another suite. Seeing as you've had the suite, you don't think that was lovely. Enough's enough. You think that was nice, I'll have another one.

• 34:58Speaker 2

  In fact, that's a really good analogy because we know that your the bacteria that develop in your gut as a result of certain foods will cause they'll interact with your brain and cause you to crave more of the same food. And so that's a double-edged sword. As with outrage, that if you consume lots of outrage, that's going to then change your mental environment over time and change the general tone and emotion that you're experiencing the mood that you're experiencing throughout the day.

• 35:26Speaker 0

  Well,

• 35:26Speaker 2

  one of the things the way people do gratitude journals because they want to fill themselves with positivity. One

• 35:32Speaker 0

  one of the main things is that because of how Facebook works and because it delivers news to people who they know want to see it. There was a time online where if the word Trump was in an article, it would be top of your newsfeed, irrelevant of what you'd clicked on. There was a brief period where that happened.

• 35:52Speaker 2

  What's it so Trump just

• 35:55Speaker 0

  to the top? Everything. It literally trumped it, top Trumps. Wow. Um yeah, Facebook. The thing with Facebook is that because it will get you to click on things that you have a particular cognitive bias towards. It segregates you into these echo chambers online with other like-minded people that share the shit that you want to click on, but

• 36:16Speaker 1

  that you potentially don't want to click on. And you don't even know you're in it. No. And

• 36:21Speaker 0

  the outrage. It's not it's not good for you at all. Um so unless you're right, in which case it's fine.

• 36:27Speaker 2

  Then you just confirmed. Yeah. Confirmed right. Take

• 36:31Speaker 0

  that. Um I think that talking about some solutions for this is probably a big deal. The first the first part of it, the first thing that I wanted to try and achieve was to let everyone know that it that it is a little bit of a problem. It's a massive problem, and that you do need to be conscious of how much you use your phone. And I don't want it to be I would actually argue now that it is come for me a real vice when that I'm self-referential about when I use my phone. I like regret I regret being so silly as to have used it, which previously, up until learning that you were potentially being manipulated and then it is not time well spent. That's something that you might not have done. Um but the end goal is more worthwhile. It's the same thing as knowing like up until the the point in which you knew that smoking might cause cancer, you were fine smoking a cigarette.

• 37:19Speaker 0

  Now that you know that it might do you feel guilty about smoking a cigarette. This is something I used to enjoy, now it's something that I feel is

• 37:27Speaker 1

  I've heard a similar thing about porn, which is that your face lit up as soon as porn. Yeah, no,

• 37:34Speaker 2

  I just I had an idea, just but never mind. Sorry.

• 37:37Speaker 1

  There's it that there was a count you know how like so the amount of porn on the internet's increased rapidly over time, then there's a point in time where no one watched any porn now's I mean, you'll tell us the stats in a second, you'll give you some stats. A lot of porn, yeah. And then there's an argument to say actually worrying about how much porn you watch is more can be more damaging than just watching a bit of porn.

• 38:00Speaker 2

  That's what I was gonna say was that Chris said that you have to that you use your phone if you get a net benefit from using it, and what you've done by creating a cycle of guilt with using your phone is that you've reduced the net benefit that you get from using your phone.

• 38:16Speaker 1

  Or potentially remove the chance of getting a net benefit completely. Which could be pulled it, you just see could

• 38:21Speaker 2

  have

• 38:21Speaker 1

  pulled it under

• 38:23Speaker 2

  So maybe you've actually tricked yourself into using your phone less in a very convoluted way.

• 38:30Speaker 1

  Which is good. You know what? I would love to see, and I don't know whether this is a stats

• 38:34Speaker 0

  on pornhook, because I've got some mint stats. I would love

• 38:36Speaker 1

  to see them, but separately. So the the Cambridge Analytica stuff, like before I left the house, there was a news story about something about Facebook leaking data to third-party apps and things like that. I would love to know whether Facebook time on screen has decreased since all this came out, and I would I would imagine I'd

• 38:53Speaker 2

  love to know that as well. I

• 38:54Speaker 1

  imagine it hasn't.

• 38:55Speaker 2

  But it took a very marginal dip, and then it's

• 38:58Speaker 1

  gone right.

• 38:58Speaker 0

  Look at what's look at what's the number one news source for most people.

• 39:01Speaker 1

  Is it Facebook? Facebook. It's actually Twitter. People are finding out about Facebook news news leaks on Facebook. Data leaks on Facebook.

• 39:09Speaker 2

  And surely Facebook can just remove anything that was news feeds that mentions. Well, do you

• 39:14Speaker 0

  remember when do you remember when Google got pulled for putting their own um shopping things at the top of of particular lists? There's like this fair use policy thing, isn't it? Like where, well, this is my platform, I can do with it what I want. Well, no, actually, you're supposed to be um neutral in a way. But okay, you're neutral at dil at the content that you deliver, but not neutral at delivering the content. It's a tough one, though, isn't

• 39:42Speaker 1

  it? It is really easy. They're not a charity, they you know, they're a business profit-driven, like course again, advertising our own services on their own platform.

• 39:50Speaker 0

  But I think I think the other thing to consider is as well that everyone believes that uh if you were to if you were to look at this from a um a very critical perspective, you know. You would think that all of the guys in Silicon Valley are wearing black hoods and long noses sat around a wooden table chanting and like doing like the just this nefarious company that's maliciously trying to steal your time, but they're not, they're just trying to maximise profit. Profit is the attention economy means that profit is directly or revenue is directly related to time on site, that means that maximizing time on site is all that matters. And if outrage and cognitive bias manipulation and snapstreaks and autoplay videos

• 40:29Speaker 2

  that's kind of worse in a way though that there's no conscious or moral consideration at all.

• 40:35Speaker 0

  Would it be worse than if they were saying we actually want to go out of our way to destroy people's lives?

• 40:39Speaker 2

  I mean that that would be worse, but I think that but there wouldn't be much like

• 40:43Speaker 1

  at least at least it's then very linear what's happening. This is their pure intention, they're achieving it. If you can change if

• 40:49Speaker 0

  you could if you could, Tristan Harris's argument is if you could change the economy to reward businesses somehow based on how much value they add to someone's life rather than their time on site. They would change in a heartbeat.

• 41:03Speaker 1

  But is that not what Zucksock's trying to do? Because you know time well spent is a snippet from his that his big post that he did. It's the other way around. Oh, is it? Yeah. So it's so Zuck's up copied Tristan.

• 41:17Speaker 0

  Is it really?

• 41:18Speaker 1

  Okay. So is that not why he's saying like all of the fake news is going to be removed and like we're gonna penalise like business pages and that's fine, but again,

• 41:31Speaker 0

  all of that is what we're talking about there is the content that's being delivered, not how uh you deliver the content. Not right. Yeah. And you know, the because he's not going to say, oh, we're actually want to encourage you to spend less time on Facebook. What he wants you to do is the time on Facebook that you spend to be more meaningful, which is fine, but there is always like no one's attacking BuzzFeed. But I've never once read a BuzzFeed article that afterwards I haven't regretted. And that isn't that is a factual statement.

• 42:00Speaker 1

  That's because they're misbranded.

• 42:03Speaker 0

  It's just clickbait shite, isn't it? Should we have a look at some stats on Pornhub?

• 42:07Speaker 2

  So the I I what take I take my hat off to the an analyst, the analyst. Nice who does the Pornhub annual stats.

• 42:19Speaker 1

  Yeah, right. I imagine it's interrupted. It's a data team, I would have to do that. Probably it is. It's not a it's not a bloke with a spreadsheet.

• 42:26Speaker 0

  Like you know how much porn we've watched this year. Um what has? Precisely. Twenty twenty-eight point five billion annual visits to Pornhub. This is the most interesting stat, right? 28.54

• 42:42Speaker 2

  per year per person.

• 42:44Speaker 0

  For

• 42:45Speaker 1

  what?

• 42:45Speaker 2

  Four visits per year per person. That's presuming that all seven seven every people on the planet is accessing porn hub. Including newborns and

• 42:54Speaker 1

  people on a deathbed. Yeah. People in third world countries. Just once every three months. But they're struggling to get running water. Some abad

• 43:00Speaker 0

  there's some abdigenals somewhere. They fucking got porn hubs. Um 28.5 billion annual visits to Pornhub, but only 25 billion searches performed. And what that means is that means they've nailed the home. 3.5 billion people have clicked on something that's appeared on their suggested uh videos at the start. Now I don't mean I don't mean I don't mean to sound like an aficionado.

• 43:32Speaker 2

  But

• 43:32Speaker 0

  I've got higher standards for my pawn than just clicking on the first thing that comes through. I mean, you the lowest common denominator here, you've chosen you've chosen to watch something that's taken no investment for you from you to watch. The very least that you could do is fucking refine it. Yeah. At least you've got to be. Someone's just gone on and gone, well, there we go. First one.

• 43:50Speaker 2

  I've found some fun. Indiscriminate. So I I like to play devil's advocate and say that we don't know that those 3.5 billion that were hits but didn't search necessarily clicked on a video. They may have gone on it and they're like,

• 44:03Speaker 0

  oh no, not today. I'm not gonna pawn today. They had they had a really difficult discussion with themselves about their nofab.

• 44:11Speaker 2

  They opened it and they were like, oh no.

• 44:13Speaker 1

  There's probably is a there'll be a there'll be a chunk of people in there who go on there and do leave for it. So what

• 44:19Speaker 2

  I wonder what the split is. People who just click on a the first video

• 44:22Speaker 1

  they see. I think that the number of people who type Pornhub in visit Pornhub and then decide not to use Pornhub's probably in the minority.

• 44:29Speaker 2

  Really? Is it not but with Facebook, I often will open Facebook and then be like, no, hang on, what am I doing? So I

• 44:35Speaker 1

  think that the emotional psychological hormonal drivers behind looking at Pornhub versus looking at Facebook are quite different.

• 44:46Speaker 0

  I don't I don't know what you do on Facebook or what you do on Pornhub for that matter. Can you believe this? This is the this is the best stat. Over the course of 2017, there were 120 million video votes on Pornhub, which is a million votes more than was cast in the last US presidential election. Mental, isn't

• 45:07Speaker 1

  it?

• 45:07Speaker 0

  So what you ki Foot Cambridge Analytica speaks, Pornhub.

• 45:13Speaker 2

  We need to know how many uniques there are because otherwise because that that could be one guy voting 120 million times.

• 45:23Speaker 1

  That brother's got a lot of time. That that's a guy really focusing on time well spent, isn't it? Yeah. You know what I want to know? I have a burning desire to know this is how many people pay for Pornhub premium.

• 45:37Speaker 2

  Oh yeah.

• 45:38Speaker 0

  They're definitely not going to reveal that, are they? Because it would be terrifyingly low. Because the I

• 45:43Speaker 1

  bet you it

• 45:43Speaker 0

  isn't. The variety of content that you get already on Pornhub just.

• 45:48Speaker 1

  Well, so they're operating the freemium model, so they they overdeliver on the front end. And and what that makes everybody think is holy fuck, what must the paid model look like?

• 45:57Speaker 0

  Are they probably jab

• 45:58Speaker 1

  jab

• 45:58Speaker 0

  jab

• 45:59Speaker 1

  right hook? Exactly, yeah. Gary. It's just Gary Vaynerchuk behind the whole thing. Harry Vaynerchuk is my I wouldn't have thought so.

• 46:06Speaker 2

  Because seeing their financials would be interesting. Do you know what they

• 46:08Speaker 0

  did? Joe Rogan did an interview with the guy who was involved in the start-up of Pornhub, and they just bought up everything. Uh they bought X NXX, uh X hamster, like they bought every video streaming service as it came up, bought it in, used like still run as a separate. No, no, no, still it's so it's still run as like a separate site or whatever, but they own it. They own like I uh the um stat of how much they own. I want to say like someone might call me out on this, but I want to say it's like more than 80% of like porn streaming worldwide. They command it is under there. It's a bit like

• 46:42Speaker 2

  Eva, where they they just buy out all the different soap companies and it look you get the illusion of choice. You go into the shop.

• 46:49Speaker 1

  It's all just the same

• 46:49Speaker 0

  thing. I mean, if if there was if there was some if there was some real like um market fair uh like a uh governing body here, regulators absolutely be a like a monopoly claim going in. But the fact of the matter is it's porn, so everyone's like, oh

• 47:03Speaker 1

  no, no, no, come on. Oh god, no, God speaks porn people. So wet

• 47:08Speaker 0

  like someone write them a letter.

• 47:10Speaker 1

  No, I'm not writing it. They'll come back all soppy.

• 47:12Speaker 0

  Um so uh right, let's do some reductions of phone use strategies. Mine have developed since last year since we last did that. My main one, my my my main one is that when you are in in an inertial frame of reference, the likelihood of you staying on your phone is higher. So if you're lying down, it's more likely than if you're sitting. And if you're sitting, it's more likely than if you're standing, and if you're standing, it's more likely than if you're walking. Uh so the fact is jumping. Jumping, yeah, yeah, flying, flying, flapping,

• 47:45Speaker 2

  fapping, fapping.

• 47:47Speaker 0

  Snatching,

• 47:48Speaker 2

  do not

• 47:48Speaker 0

  try and snatch with

• 47:49Speaker 2

  chin-ups.

• 47:49Speaker 0

  Unless you're Dimitri Klockov.

• 47:51Speaker 1

  It's impossible, isn't it? Use your phone while you're doing it, shouldn't it?

• 47:53Speaker 2

  It depends how strong you are.

• 47:54Speaker 0

  One-handed shin-up, fine. Um basically what did lift. Did lift did lift impossible. Um basically, don't use your phone, don't use your phone when you're in an inertial frame of reference. So if you are um Justus just trapped is between his chin and his between his beard, his Arab beard. What his phone. Oh you just

• 48:16Speaker 2

  said you've trapped his trapped between his speaking of which um Robee trapped his Glan's penis doing uh lateral raises. Glanzo

• 48:27Speaker 0

  Megalynegrum.

• 48:29Speaker 2

  It's possible.

• 48:30Speaker 0

  What's a bruised clitoris? Clitoromegly negrum. Yeah. Well, if you are an Olympic weightlifter, potentially one who's coming back from the Commonwealth Games, which is recently in Australia, um, and you are suffering with Clitoro Megalynegrum. We had

• 48:45Speaker 1

  some contact. We had someone uh opt into our email list called Zoe Smith, right? Who there's a there's a weightlifter who's just coming back from the Commonwealth games called Zoe Smith. You so have made a cake with her once. So, emailed her and went, is this the same Zoe Smith that I made a cake with?

• 49:06Speaker 2

  She emailed us. Literally

• 49:10Speaker 1

  I'm not deleting anything, I'm just uh Is this the same Zoe Smith? No reply. She

• 49:16Speaker 2

  replied to you. She replied to me saying sadly not. Oh

• 49:19Speaker 0

  gutted it. That's

• 49:21Speaker 1

  a shame.

• 49:21Speaker 0

  So it's time time time reduction on your phone. So quick. Best best thing, but best few things to do. Um do not sleep with your phone by your bed. So put your phone over the dead by put your phone over the far side of the room. Put the charger over the far side of the room as the first step. That means that if you want the phone to be charged the next day, you've got to go over there, stacking the deck in your favour against having it near your bed. Um it means that when you wake up on a morning, like I can't believe, I cannot believe that these like doormat alarm clocks that you have to stand on for ten seconds. Oh, that's cool. Have been uh well, I mean that's just your wall over, isn't it?

• 50:00Speaker 1

  Were you about to criticize it? Yes. Just put your phone, put the alarm on your phone and put the phone off.

• 50:06Speaker 0

  I know you won't try and cancel my account and I can't. You can't do it. Yeah, put your phone over the far side of the room. I do the next to the window, so it means that when you wake up on the morning, you do that. My advice would be do not look at your phone for anything other than turning off your alarm clock unless you are desperately need to do it, i.e. waiting for someone to come and pick you up. Police. Please. Do not do not pick your phone up until after you've done everything that you need to do in the morning that includes making breakfast, having coffee, setting yourself up for the day, ideally until you get in the car. If you're doing meditation, if you're doing ROM WAD, if you're doing anything else, look at the phone. Like when you open up the phone, direct yourself immediately to the app that you need to use. Second one from me is to remove all social media websites from the home page of your phone.

• 50:55Speaker 0

  I think that for many people almost everybody uses their phone in some way or another that's related to work or contacting friends, and I think that an outright deletion of social media off your phone can be a little bit extreme for some people, although that's the goal. Take it off your home screen and move it into a folder somewhere that you need to swipe through for quite a while to get to. Also remove the number notifications from everything except for things that are generated by other humans. So for me, I've kept mine on for Messenger for Facebook, I've kept mine on for WhatsApp, but not for group chats. The reason is that if someone has messaged me specifically, that's probably actually worthy of my time. I know that it sucks you into using the phone, but that for me it's probably not far off time while. So that's

• 51:40Speaker 1

  not you wouldn't count Facebook as human generated. Uh

• 51:44Speaker 0

  for the most part because there is an un uh there is a unfair weight towards computer generated So it's messages, basically. But emails, messages direct, direct. How do you

• 51:54Speaker 2

  eliminate group chat notifications on what's that?

• 51:57Speaker 0

  One button notifications, group chat off. Yeah, really?

• 52:00Speaker 2

  Yeah.

• 52:01Speaker 0

  And you can leave like normal ones on. I'm gonna do that

• 52:04Speaker 2

  now.

• 52:04Speaker 0

  Um and then turn off also direct. Well, group group chats, the problem with group chats. Yeah, they just they can rack up like really really quick. And you've got if you

• 52:15Speaker 1

  have them on notification, it's a nightmare. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Kills you.

• 52:20Speaker 0

  Can't do anything. Um next one, Johnny, have you got off? Oh, you've already got enough. I've already I've already ignored you. But it's still bothering you.

• 52:28Speaker 2

  Just the idea of them.

• 52:31Speaker 0

  Uh Johnny, what have you got? Have you got any tactics that you use for phone reduction?

• 52:35Speaker 1

  Um the one I mean, you both experienced when I went through my phase with my shit phone. I think for me, that is the one that I would aspire to to be at briefly explain that. So I bought a 20-pound phone on Amazon, which is the most basic phone you can imagine. It has a torch.

• 52:58Speaker 2

  What did he call it again?

• 52:59Speaker 1

  Shit phone.

• 53:00Speaker 2

  The the boss. Oh

• 53:01Speaker 1

  yeah. The the bastard.

• 53:04Speaker 2

  Your motherfucking boss.

• 53:06Speaker 1

  Yeah, the bastard. Um B

• 53:09Speaker 2

  D H A R S T A.

• 53:12Speaker 1

  So which is a reference to a YouTube video, because we all spend too much time on YouTube

• 53:15Speaker 0

  on YouTube that we can actually reference anything

• 53:17Speaker 1

  like that. 150 million. If anyone would like access to the funniest collection of YouTube videos, I I that is no exaggeration. Yusuf's how many 700? Probably, uh. Like it is curated content. Like it is really high quality. That is time excellently spent. Excellently

• 53:37Speaker 0

  well spent. Fine.

• 53:39Speaker 1

  So yeah. Um and for a 24-hour period once a week, take your sim card out of your iPhone or or your Android and put it into the shit phone, and then you wake up the next day and it is weird.

• 53:53Speaker 0

  What were the barriers that you found for that screen?

• 53:57Speaker 1

  So you so the hard the hardest thing is or was day like I would go with my girlfriend somewhere. So like she'd be shopping, or it'd be like we'd go to Tesco, and you find yourself in these periods of dead time where you you go to check it anyway. So I'd find myself getting it out of my pocket and looking at it and then thinking, what an idiot.

• 54:20Speaker 0

  What

• 54:21Speaker 1

  the fuck am I doing? I mean, that's the that's the what am I gonna realistically what am I gonna do? Like turn the torch on off a lot. I've done that, I've done

• 54:27Speaker 2

  that 50 times today already. The battery's fucked. That's so interesting. That's it. It's the it's it's an improvement. It's compulsive phantom compulsion as well. It's such

• 54:35Speaker 0

  a it's that's the idiosyncrasy side of it. There's this really good um uh meme that I saw online, it's about a guy sitting on the subway, and this person's speaking in the third person that's saying I saw this guy sat across from me on rush hour on the on the train as everyone else was sat looking at their phones and he was just sat there staring out of the window like a psychopath. Like sitting

• 54:59Speaker 2

  having a coffee, just not texting.

• 55:02Speaker 0

  Yeah, do you know what I mean? Like the the compulsion to check, and this is the thing because the in introspection occurs. It's such a new thing as well. Ten years ago, that wouldn't have been introspection occurs during periods of boredom. Like periods of boredom allow you to ask yourself questions throughout the day. Sit, just sit and think. Yeah.

• 55:20Speaker 1

  Yeah. Like

• 55:21Speaker 0

  when do you ever like if you were told to go and sit in a room now for 30 minutes and you couldn't meditate, so you couldn't actually do what we would do when we had a little bit of silence. And you were told to go and sit in a room for 30 minutes. The number

• 55:35Speaker 2

  of people that would give up. It's considered the greatest punishment to put someone in solitary in solitary confinement. It's like no stimulus. There's nothing. Which is the people highest level. People

• 55:45Speaker 0

  would prefer to be in with prison with rapists and criminals. Than by themselves. Than on their own.

• 55:51Speaker 1

  Yeah. And there's been my first thought with for that is I would just thousands of hours of meditation. Nail it. Well, yeah, that's fine. Like I want to be the man with maybe

• 55:59Speaker 0

  20 minutes. I want to maybe 20.

• 56:04Speaker 1

  Like I'd come out of prison everywhere else had a terrible time. And I was

• 56:08Speaker 0

  mindful as fuck. Yeah. Just glowing blue light. Okay, so you had your. Yeah, so

• 56:13Speaker 1

  there is there is the ultimate fear of you go to you take the sim card out of your phone, and there's this fear sets in of like, what is going to happen over the next 24 hours? What about so I think a lot of that for me is business related. But I know that there's a scone cover. So you did sometimes call me. But the the thing about that is that when you called me on my shit phone days, there is this utter fear that sets in because you're like, I know that he will have hesitated before ringing me. This needs to be still serious. Yeah. And

• 56:47Speaker 0

  so you hit you start calls. And it's goes like we beep beep beep beep beep. You're like, what the fuck is that?

• 56:54Speaker 1

  Oh god, it's my phone ringing. What must change the ringtone? Beep. Hello. And you can barely hear him. Yeah.

• 57:04Speaker 0

  I'm gonna break I'm gonna break the fourth wall of podcast recording and say that I'm next week there is going to be a conversation with Kai Wei, who is CEO of the Lightphone.com. However, I've already had the discussion with him. Um but that's that's really interesting, and you'll find out what is potentially a more palatable uh solution to Johnny's shit phone problem. The shite phone.

• 57:30Speaker 1

  The shit phone problem. There are so many shit phone problems that mainly it takes a lot of discipline to say I'm gonna have a shit phone day tomorrow. And there's always a reason not to have a shit phone day.

• 57:39Speaker 0

  Uh

• 57:39Speaker 1

  Yusuf, some

• 57:40Speaker 0

  strategies.

• 57:41Speaker 2

  Very similar to yourselves. I think the the general principle with everything we've said so far is make the good decision as easy as possible and make the bad decision as hard as possible. So we have the low-hanging

• 57:54Speaker 0

  fruit, right?

• 57:54Speaker 2

  Exactly, yeah. So we have the the apps on the final page and call it something like you're a dick. Um there's grayscaling your phone, which I tried for a while. But I've tried that too, it

• 58:06Speaker 1

  doesn't really do much.

• 58:07Speaker 2

  It it just annoyed me. I don't think it made me use it less. It just meant that when I took photos, I had to double check that the gray

• 58:14Speaker 1

  office. And I think that does a bit. Okay. Which makes it slightly less visually stimulating. But grayscale is irritating.

• 58:23Speaker 0

  I think that that probably sacrifices some of the experience of what you are going to use it for whilst actually not making much of a difference to the things that you want it to change. Yeah,

• 58:34Speaker 2

  yeah, exactly. Um the only other things for me is I always have it on silence. Um unless it and I have everything's on do not disturb mode except for a select few people that when they call me. Am I am I one of those people? Of course. Oh. Um Johnny. Your tip. It's just my business partner. I'm sure it's fine.

• 58:59Speaker 1

  You were the one who influenced me to turn off all notifications. That has been

• 59:02Speaker 2

  the

• 59:02Speaker 1

  biggest massive incredible. It's such a

• 59:05Speaker 0

  such a big change. And the thing is, like, you can you can keep a f a select few. I've got personal messages on WhatsApp, I've got iMessage, Facebook's gone, Twitter's gone, all Facebook pages, if you run Facebook pages, you'll know what we mean from the app. That's gone. I bet you've got you've got ads manager notifications on, do you know? Just stripe. Um stripes just when I make money. Yeah, so

• 59:25Speaker 1

  the only no the only time my phone makes a noise is either when Yusuf changes the time that he's going to purchase kabuki movement systems. Or calendar, calendar reminders, or when we make a sale.

• 59:40Speaker 2

  I think calendar reminders, although I don't have notifications for that, I make an exception for it, I think, because it's important,

• 59:46Speaker 1

  isn't it?

• 59:46Speaker 2

  You made that notification to remind you.

• 59:50Speaker 1

  Which is also important. I

• 59:51Speaker 2

  mean,

• 59:51Speaker 1

  isn't it isn't

• 59:52Speaker 0

  it?

• 59:52Speaker 2

  Isn't it crazy that we

• 59:54Speaker 0

  were sat discussing ways to

• 59:57Speaker 2

  stop the things that we voluntarily bought from This thousand pounds, this thousand pounds a year in

• 1:00:03Speaker 0

  this thousand pound a year investment that is with us twenty-four hours a day, the most ubiquitous piece of technology that's probably ever existed. And we're having to come up with strategies to try and fight back against billion dollar companies.

• 1:00:15Speaker 1

  But it it it's it's really powerful, which makes it fantastic in many ways. Like the things you can do with it are brilliant. Unbelievable. But that it's it everything has a side effect, isn't it? How much of

• 1:00:26Speaker 0

  what we're talking about is time well spent? Like because for me, like it the uh Tristan came up with some good some good um uh stats on it, and he says that number one, two and three, Facebook, Instagram, and Snapchat, the three most regretted uses of apps, and I think that um one, two, and three of the on the opposite end of the scale was my fitness pal, actually, weirdly enough, as one of the ones that's not regretted. Yeah, yeah, as highly um podcasts and uh mindfulness apps.

• 1:00:56Speaker 2

  Yeah, you never like sit and think, oh, I wish I hadn't wasted so much time on my fitness pal today. Like

• 1:01:00Speaker 0

  it's yeah it's kind of it's been productive, like you don't you don't go in and scroll through and like spend too much time looking at like whether whether Daz Charles hit his macro that's true mac macro um

• 1:01:12Speaker 2

  even though they try to, but the other thing for me is I've never had Facebook on my phone. And Facebook for me, out of those apps is the most used to be the most compulsive, but now on the Mac as well, I've got a mod that stops the news feed from showing up. And so now it's just Chrome news feed blocker, I think it's called. It may be, yeah. So I I only use it for

• 1:01:34Speaker 1

  I got that as well. Purity. So we

• 1:01:37Speaker 2

  have Facebook purity. So Facebook for me is only used for work or marketplace selling T towels for two pounds.

• 1:01:45Speaker 1

  So what what that's like, and I don't know whether you were about to say this, but it's you when you go on to use Facebook and the newsfeed's blocked, it's like you have to use the menu items to navigate what you want to do. You don't just get dragged into like the first thing that appears.

• 1:02:00Speaker 2

  Because I'm such a sucker for that, and I know that I am, and so there's no point in me saying, Oh, you know what, I'll just exert more willpower and just not get sucked into the news feed.

• 1:02:07Speaker 0

  I mean, one of the f the most crazy ones, and it this will happen to absolutely everybody. I'm gonna touch on two two things here. One of the most crazy ones, you've had a long day at work, you've been out, you've maybe been at the gym, you haven't been in the house for like 12 hours, something like that. You get back, you park the car up on the drive, you take your phone out, and then you sit in the car for 20 minutes. Yeah, there is no more shameful use of your phone that than that.

• 1:02:32Speaker 2

  Sitting in the car outside your house. Outside

• 1:02:34Speaker 0

  your own

• 1:02:34Speaker 2

  house. Waiting. I've done that before as well. It happens

• 1:02:38Speaker 1

  all the time. So it's when you're it's when your willpower and discipline is at its absolute lowest, and you're like, I'm tired, I just I can't be bothered, like, oh that's a nice rad shiny thing to look at. And then you're in turning in a side. Is it

• 1:02:52Speaker 2

  the same as like when you're too tired to go to bed? And you you can't score or something.

• 1:02:58Speaker 0

  Yeah, I suppose so, or that you know that you've got to, but even with this, it's like you could do the phone thing while you move.

• 1:03:04Speaker 1

  Do

• 1:03:04Speaker 0

  you know what I mean? Like you could stand up, but it's the inertial frame of reference again, right? You're comfortable, it's warm. It's sat you sat in the car, you've been there for a while, you've probably been thinking about using your phone. And here's here's another thing, like, and I don't know why this isn't a bigger deal. Like, how many Instagram stories do you see of people, and we've all been like well, maybe not all of us, I don't know, make you culpable as well, but a lot of us have been uh culprit of doing this. How many Instagram stories do you see of people while they're fucking driving? Like they're driving down the street doing Instagram no like there's the vast majority of Instagram users that drive will be able to attest to it. And

• 1:03:36Speaker 2

  you're like That's a really fiddly thing to do, how fucking

• 1:03:39Speaker 0

  de like I mean, I'd you know I don't want to fuck it put myself in the firing line, but how are the police not going, mate? That's a video of you doing something illegal in

• 1:03:50Speaker 2

  your car.

• 1:03:50Speaker 1

  Yeah.

• 1:03:51Speaker 2

  Apparently police are now riding buses to look down. To look down, look above to see people

• 1:03:57Speaker 1

  special lorries that they take on motorways to look down on people. Wow. Look across a lorry drive. To look down

• 1:04:02Speaker 0

  on to

• 1:04:02Speaker 1

  just just judge your skill. Like, look how small and shit your car is compared to my big just looking down on you. Yeah, yeah. There's that clip of that guy, you see the the guy on his phone who killed He sent like

• 1:04:13Speaker 0

  what was it, like 20 messages in a space of like

• 1:04:15Speaker 1

  10

• 1:04:16Speaker 0

  miles or something? And then

• 1:04:17Speaker 1

  just drove straight in the back of a car, killed the entire family. Oh

• 1:04:20Speaker 0

  god. And I don't know, like it's but here's here's the thing, right? That the that there, like, do people want to be on their phone? Like, is your is using your phone while you're in the car time well spent for you? Or is it just are you news feed scrolling? And we we all we all uh uh someone who I know has a problem with doing it.

• 1:04:44Speaker 2

  It's a difficult problem that many people face. It's one of those things that it's fine until it's not, and then you're like, that was not worth the text message that I said, or the course it's not, yeah. Of course it's not.

• 1:04:55Speaker 1

  And it's all it's the m so for me, I think the the thing you said about not looking at it when um So something that that Dan Gibson DAB did digital or broadcasting Gibson has just mentioned to me, which it really interests me because he he always strikes me as he's he's a busy guy. Like from the moment he wakes up to the to about seven o'clock at night, he's like he's up rushing training like pinching every second out of his morning, then he's at work, he's oh my god. Finishes, and he's like, I often ask I'll allow myself 30 minutes in the evening to check social media, and he seems he seemed really on top of it. And the other day he told me that he's experimenting with not allowing himself to look at social media in the morning. I was like, okay. So it's eroding away at you as well.

• 1:05:41Speaker 1

  Like it's obviously what used to be a very controlled in the evening, 30 minutes, it's now creeping into the morning. Yep. Now he's like, it's got to the point where I feel like I need to put a boundary on this.

• 1:05:53Speaker 0

  I think the easiest way to do it for me, and this is the this harks back. I'm sure that if there's anyone who understands habit setting better than I do or we do, that they'll this will be a common tactic. But I made the rule about when I was going out for drinks, if I was on a stint of sobriety and it was my birthday, and I knew that I wanted to have some drinks but not too many, I had to set myself a hard line rule, and it's the same with the phone when you're trying to stop yourself from doing something your mind wants to do, but in retrospect you don't. The what was it, the current self versus the remembered self? Yeah. Um you need to set very, very hard lines, and one of the easiest ones to do is to say, right, up until a particular point, I'm not going to look at my phone in the morning. After a particular point, I'm not going to look at my phone on a night.

• 1:06:41Speaker 2

  Yeah, well, the the most productive time I've ever had in my life, and I I don't know why I don't go back to the phone. That's what you're gonna say. Is when I was I was no Wi-Fi until 3 pm.

• 1:06:51Speaker 0

  How did you do that? Did you not automate that? You literally just went over and flicked the switch.

• 1:06:54Speaker 2

  Yeah, so just um go to bed, turn everything off, turn Wi-Fi and connection off on everything, and then next day wake up purely offline work until 3 pm. Is uh and then have if you're a knowledge

• 1:07:05Speaker 0

  worker who has to communicate with other people, that's probably gonna be difficult to do. Um

• 1:07:08Speaker 2

  then I I would manually turn it on for that one task and then turn it back off again. Oh my god. Um that is serious. And I had a 30-minute allocation for social media WhatsApp messages

• 1:07:17Speaker 0

  at

• 1:07:17Speaker 2

  6 pm, and it was beautiful.

• 1:07:19Speaker 0

  I mean that is that is the absolute extreme. And

• 1:07:22Speaker 2

  then I slipped out of the habit, and now my life's a mess. So

• 1:07:25Speaker 1

  the thing is, so uh I I what what I found I ask I said to Dan, what are you doing? Digital audio, digital audio broadcast gifts. Just for anyone who's confused.

• 1:07:33Speaker 0

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Speaker 1

  How what are you doing to ensure that you don't check your phone before midday? Because for me, saying like oh just not do that. It's like you know, people set a goal like tomorrow I'm gonna go on a diet. It's like it's something that requires willpower, it's something that is probably currently your norm to just click your fingers and change. Yeah, especially in the morning, you wake up, your phone's by a bird, you reach over, turn off your line. If it's on the other side of the thing. No, of course. And there's loads of red things to check, you're like, well, that looks exciting, check that. Before you know it, you're in. 30 minutes down down the line, and you've been. Well, you

• 1:08:04Speaker 2

  you got a physical alarm clock, didn't you? Just to avoid eliminate that, and I think it's such a good idea. I think you need it

• 1:08:11Speaker 1

  it yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 0

  But the what we're talking about here is is harking back to it, you said Yusuf, which is making the the choice you want to make either in retrospect or in advance as easy as possible, and the choice that you don't want to make as difficult as possible. So, yeah, you're right that on a morning it's difficult not to check your phone, but it's a piece of piss if it's not in your hand.

• 1:08:31Speaker 1

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 0

  You cannot check your phone if it's not there. So put it put it somewhere. You know what I started doing that was to break the um idiosyncratic habit at the start of this year. I put my phone in my other pocket. The number of times that I've taken my wallet out recently, and obviously I will

• 1:08:47Speaker 2

  spend 10 minutes pressing the pressing your wallet, yeah. Like I don't

• 1:08:50Speaker 0

  think I

• 1:08:50Speaker 1

  have a consistent pocket. I do. I have it, it always goes in my pocket.

• 1:08:53Speaker 0

  So um but yeah, I think you you just need to try and do things that are going to stack the deck in your favour, and for the most part, that involves just putting your phone away.

• 1:09:04Speaker 1

  So I think that starts with trying to spot your own patterns, doesn't it? Yeah. Right now, like when when is it that you look at your phone? Like, when are you when do

• 1:09:11Speaker 0

  you get really chewed up with time? Yeah, yeah. And again, you know, you I'm sat down with a a doctor and an accountant that were fairly figures based. You cannot um derive much from the research without having figures. Yeah. And you need to have some figures so

• 1:09:28Speaker 2

  rescue time and moment. Yeah, rescue time is

• 1:09:31Speaker 0

  rescue time is moment for MacBook, right? Yeah, um,

• 1:09:34Speaker 2

  depressing when you look at the annual report or the moment you report.

• 1:09:38Speaker 1

  Sends me an email every Sunday.

• 1:09:40Speaker 2

  And you know what do you know what might be I unsubscribed from any possible So we know I wouldn't know about that, but uh you know my so I did my my all time. That's the most valuable part of it. I I just checked it on the website.

• 1:09:54Speaker 0

  Alright. He goes in and does it by choice. Um you know my total phone time since We started using Moment, which was after Distraction is Destruction 80 about 18 months ago. My my total phone time is just under 4,000 hours in 18 months. I spend um what over a third of my waking life on my phone. And this is someone who's trying to do everything in his power. It it'll take it'll take

• 1:10:26Speaker 1

  you. I'm not gonna get the full stats, I'm just gonna get the dailies. Yeah. Um as you just listed, it gives you percentage of uh working time on your phone. A third sounds about right. The tip that I was gonna say that you told me about was put your apps into a few folders or off the home screen and then use the search function to get to it, which is it it feels the same to me as the um the newsfeed blocker. Because you go on Facebook and you're like, what am I what am I here to do? Yep,

• 1:11:04Speaker 0

  you have to be mindful to choose it. So that's the same. That's an option. If you go into Siri uh on your on your phone, if you use an Android, then I have no idea. Um but if you go into settings and then Siri and turn off Siri app suggestions, then take all of your apps off the home screen and put them into folders to get to the apps. The most convenient way or the quickest way to do it is to swipe down from the top and to type into a search bar what it is that you want. But to do that, you need to make a conscious choice to type the letter of the app that you want and to begin the process, which just gives you a little bit

• 1:11:36Speaker 2

  of

• 1:11:36Speaker 0

  automatic

• 1:11:37Speaker 2

  is you at moment, just

• 1:11:38Speaker 0

  a little bit of a moment should just

• 1:11:39Speaker 1

  think why am I here? What

• 1:11:40Speaker 0

  am I doing? What am I doing? Yeah, it's less of a compulsion. Um, because I found that having the same way that a river cuts through a bend to find the quickest way. I managed to find a shortcut to my own ship folder routine. Yeah, oh me too. That within within three days, I'd found a quicker way that was quicker than when it used to be on my home screen. Oh no, that's even

• 1:12:00Speaker 1

  worse then. That's my home screen. Yeah. I have to go one, two to find my folder called time wasting. That's where I spend most of my time. So time

• 1:12:11Speaker 0

  spending.

• 1:12:11Speaker 1

  You just realize that you are such a fickle bastard who will just overcome everything you put in your own way. Which is why shit fun.

• 1:12:20Speaker 0

  It's not your it's not your choice. Uh thank you very much. Check out the Distraction is Destruction podcast, I'll make sure that that is in the links. Links to the what was it, the choice architecture? What was the one that you sent us on YouTube? Dark what was it called? Dark Patterns um on YouTube, links to Tristan Harris with Sam Harris and a couple of other websites that you may be interested in. If you want to find out any more, or if you've got any questions, feel free to tweet me or the guys online, and we'll catch you next time. We've got more life hacks coming up, we've got Kaiway coming up, Daniel Head from Romwod, and Quinn Hennick of Juggernaut Training Systems. Thank you, bye.

• 1:13:03Speaker 2

  Bye. Bye. Yeah,

• 1:13:08Speaker 0

  yeah.