11 Stoic Rules For "The Good Life" - Ryan Holiday

Ryan Holiday is a podcaster, marketer and an author. Over 2,000 years ago, the Stoics identified the timeless challenges that would affect both men and women. Thanks to Ryan’s work, this philosophy now thrives in a modern context, providing a framework for anyone seeking a more virtuous life. Expect to learn why Ryan doesn’t talk about the projects he’s working on before finishing them, if Ryan agrees that competition is for losers, why self-belief is overrated, What Ryan’s morning routine and a typical day looks like for him, why Broicism has found a new life after Stoicism, how to take responsibility for yourself vs. other people and much more... - 00:00 Talking Vs Doing 05:34 Run a Race With Yourself 11:19 Life-Changing Decisions Are Never Simple 20:13 The Value of Going Through Difficulty 29:40 Be Quiet, Work Hard & Stay Healthy 40:00 Be Clear on What Success Is 55:48 Stop Wanting Things to Be Easy 1:03:02 Self-Improvement as a Parent 1:12:07 Is Justice the Most Important Virtue? 1:22:40 Why Gandhi Was Such a Genius 1:32:04 How Marcus Aurelius Kept His Integrity 1:44:34 How to Know If You’re Doing the Right Thing 1:55:20 The Rise of Stoicism Among Young Men 2:05:32 Where to Find Ryan - Get up to 32% discount on the best supplements from Momentous at https://livemomentous.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout). Get 20% discount on Nomatic’s amazing luggage at https://nomatic.com/modernwisdom (use code MODERNWISDOM) AG1 - Get 5 Free Travel Packs, Free Liquid Vitamin D and more from AG1 at https://drinkag1.com/wisdom Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Chris Williamson?

  I've collected some of my favorite quotes from you over the last year, and I want to go through some of those and get your reflection. Talking about the thing and doing the thing, vie for the same resources, allocate your energy appropriately.

• 0:13Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I don't talk about projects as I'm working on them. That's just a rule I found. There was this thing many, many years ago. It was this Twitter account that just collected tweets of people talking about the novel they were working on, which they were obviously not working on, or they wouldn't have been tweeting about it. And, look, I'm not saying you do the thing for validation. That's a bad reason to do things. But there is some sort of light at the end of the tunnel that keeps you going, right? When you're doing a thing, like, hopefully, people will like this, hopefully, it will be received well, hopefully, they'll pat me on the back, whatever.

• 0:49Ryan Holiday?

  You don't want to take that on credit. You want to earn it. And so when I'm working on a project, I wait until I am nearly done or done before I start to talk about it, because what it does is it starts to make this thing feel real that is not yet real, and that you are the only person that can make real. So it's this sort of temptation, this, Stephen Presswell called it the resistance. The resistance wants you to go, hey, I'm training for a marathon, and people to go, that's so great, I'm so impressed. But they're impressed with the thing you haven't done yet, you know? Tell them after you run the marathon, you know?

• 1:29Ryan Holiday?

  That's when you want, that's when you want to cash in on the work that you've been putting in. And I think about, I think about the people that I really admire, people who work for years and years on things. And I just think about what it must be like to be in the wilderness that long, to just show up every single day and work on a thing and not get any recognition or appreciation for that thing, to not know if you're heading in the right direction or not, the kind of character and determination that that takes. And so my, my projects are thankfully much shorter than that, usually. But, you know, you just, you just do the thing. And then if people like it at the end, that's great.

• 2:15Chris Williamson?

  I mentioned that quote to Andrew Huberman and he told me that there is a neuroscientific basis for that, too.

• 2:23Ryan Holiday?

  Huh.

• 2:23Chris Williamson?

  That you actually get little sort of titrated drips of dopamine when you do talk about doing the thing.

• 2:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 2:30Chris Williamson?

  So your philosophical artsy wanky insight is also reflected quite nicely in the neuroscience.

• 2:36Ryan Holiday?

  I worked for this guy for a long time and he had this habit of telling people like what he was like, his plans for sort of world domination, like all the things he was working on. And I noticed that he would tell the story so many times in so many ways. And it was always so smart and clever and bound to work, but he would do it so prematurely that it would almost be that he would get tired of it. Right? Like he would tell it, it would become real in his mind and become real, you know, reified, as they say in these conversations, that he would, he would get bored of it before it came time to actually do the thing.

• 3:18Chris Williamson?

  He's almost got the satisfaction from completing the thing by talking about it so much before he's completed.

• 3:23Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And he was so good at entertaining people about it and, and making it feel real and making it the genius of it so obvious that, yeah, he would, he would just move on to the next thing. And, and in his mind, this was never quitting. Right? In his mind, he, he was never like, it was like, I could have, I just chose not to. Or, or maybe even like sort of blurring in his mind that he did do it. Right? And, and so it's this very seductive, insidious thing where the more you talk about it, the more real it is. But by definition, it's actually less real.

• 3:58Chris Williamson?

  Pushes you further away from it.

• 3:59Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Because you didn't, you, you had an hour conversation about this thing you're going to do and how it's going to blow everything up. You didn't spend one hour making that thing closer to reality. And so I have an aversion to it. I just found that so like, so gross. And, and then I saw what it's doing for him. But, but in, in my own practice, just like, hey, I'd rather just do the thing. And I've, the other, the other side of it that I have found is that whenever, one of the hardest parts about doing a book is that you usually have to sell the book, the idea. From start to finish, before you've done any of it. So you have to have this vision of this thing that you can't actually really have a vision of because you haven't done it.

• 4:41Ryan Holiday?

  And, you know, when you, when, when you make contact with the enemy or reality, it changes, right? So this, this part of talking about it is really awkward and weird because it's not, it's not real. And if you're intellectually honest, you've done it enough times, you know, you can't possibly know. And so what I would find is I would talk about a thing and, and then, you know, describe a project I'm working on or this idea I have, and then people go, what about this? What about this? You know, they, they, and then I would lose confidence in the thing I was doing because I was, I, I was out, like, I didn't believe it and I didn't know it because it wasn't real. And so I just thought, you know what? I'm just going to spend all this energy and all this attention on doing the thing.

• 5:26Ryan Holiday?

  And if people like it at the end, great, but, but I'm not going to get, I'm not just going to get caught up in this thing.

• 5:33Chris Williamson?

  From Peter Thiel, "Competition is for losers. When people compete, someone loses. So go where you're the only one. Do what only you can. Run a race with yourself."

• 5:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, that's a great line in Zero to One that I've always loved. This, the, the essence of Stoicism is this idea that you focus on what's in your control. And Epictetus said something very similar about 2,000 years before Peter Thiel. He said, "If you only run races where winning is up to you, you'll always win." Right? If, if winning for you is, I have the most money. If winning for you is, I'm the most beloved, I'm the most well-known, I received the most awards.

• 6:16Ryan Holiday?

  If winning to you requires someone or something to deem you something, you might get it, but you also might not get it. If your goal is to be the best version of yourself, or to put a certain amount of time or energy, or to push yourself to a place that you've never been before, well, now winning is something that's in your control. And so I just, I just try to focus on that. I try to run my own race. I've, I've been a runner most of my life, and that's one of the things you learn very early is that like, You know, you have these competitive impulses. So somebody blows past you or whatever. And you go, I gotta keep up with this person. I gotta beat this person. And then you really, you have no idea when they started and you have no idea when they're fishing.

• 6:58Ryan Holiday?

  You're, you're almost never actually running a race with a predetermined beginning and end. And so when you can be really clear about defining success in your own terms, then success is much more attainable. And, and this isn't like some cop out where you, you make, you know, you're just

• 7:16Chris Williamson?

  Sell yourself short. You don't try hard.

• 7:18Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. You, you're actually, I think determining standards that are much higher and much harder, but you are not allowing other people to do it. And now what Peter Thiel is also saying, he's pointing out this thing that people, people almost instinctively go to well-defined spaces because they don't have a clear sense of what they want to do or why they want to do it. And so they just try to do something else, someone that everyone else is doing. And, and by definition, it's a commodity, right? So they go, oh, this person has a big podcast. I want to have a big podcast. Or this person, like this is where restaurants tend to go in this town. And so they just go where everyone else goes. And this feels safer in that no one's going to laugh at you. It won't be obviously stupid.

• 8:01Ryan Holiday?

  You know, the chances of catastrophic failure are lower, but also the chances of like real and profound wins or gains is lower. This, the red ocean, blue ocean.

• 8:11Chris Williamson?

  Have you heard Rory Sutherland's take on no one ever gets fired for hiring McKinsey?

• 8:16Ryan Holiday?

  That's right. Yeah. You do the thing that everyone in your position does. And this is, I mean, your experiences with people in publishing, right? Like the main thing is you don't want people to go, why the hell did you buy that book? Right? What the hell were you thinking giving that book a big marketing budget? Right? And so, um, people go towards what's safe, what doesn't feel, you know, obviously, uh, wrong or ridiculous. But the reality is a lot of things that really do succeed seem to that way. Like an obscure, uh, book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy. That would have been preposterous to think it would go on to do, you know, my books would go on to do what they did.

• 8:57Ryan Holiday?

  But I was really interested in them. I had a very sort of clear and set defined market that I wanted to reach and I was really interested in it. And that was it. And then everything else was extra. And it's funny now, you know, remembering going to my publisher with that idea for that book and them giving. You know, basically humoring me with it to now hear all the people who want me to blurb books that really exist only because they are trying to reach the audience that I have cultivated is is a surreal experience. That's like you do this thing and everyone tells you it's crazy and it will obviously not work. And then not long after that, those same people are copying you.

• 9:39Chris Williamson?

  How do you keep your ego in check when things like that happen? How do you keep the chip off your shoulder, not get bitter, resentful, self righteous?

• 9:46Ryan Holiday?

  Well, but those are two different sides of the same reaction that can happen to this very common thing, which is you did something that everyone said wouldn't work and then it does work. So what lesson do you take from that? Is it fuck other people? They're trying to hold me down. I gotta prove them all wrong. Or is it there? Nobody knows anything. I'm the only one that knows. I saw this at American Apparel, that Charlie did this, built this fashion brand from nothing that should not have worked. And the result was he lost the ability to calibrate good feedback from bad feedback.

• 10:25Ryan Holiday?

  You know, warnings from, you know, unwarranted criticism. So like, I try to ask myself, like, when I get feedback and you get this thing in you that's like, who the fuck are you or what, you know, what do you know? To go like, first off, let's not trust that reaction. And then second, let's, let's like wait it out, right? Like, like, uh, this idea that who are you to tell me this is almost never going to be the right way to come at any kind of feedback. It may well be that you should completely disregard this advice and this person doesn't know what they're talking about. You just want to make sure that you're.

• 11:07Ryan Holiday?

  You're doing that calmly and rationally and kindly. And then you can be more confident that you're not doing it from a place of fragility or sensitivity.

• 11:17Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, yeah. All right, next one. The idea of fuck yes or no, it's far too simple and has caused me quite a lot of grief. Dropping out of college, I was maybe 51, 49 on it. Leaving my corporate job to become a writer, maybe 60, 40. The certainty comes later. The truly life changing decisions are never simple.

• 11:36Ryan Holiday?

  I would love to say in retrospect that I knew all the big risks that I took in my life were going to pay off. But if I did, I guess they wouldn't have been risks and they probably wouldn't have paid off because I would have been doing them from a place of entitlement or ego or certainty, rather than a place of openness, self-awareness, humility, hunger. So you.

• 12:04Ryan Holiday?

  I think hell yes, hell no, or fuck yes, fuck yes, fuck no, is a nice rubric for like, do you want to go to this conference or not? You know, you want to have coffee or not? Some friends are getting together. Do you want to come or not? But when it's taking your life in your hand, like when you're deciding to move here,

• 12:23Ryan Holiday?

  it could not have worked, right? And it ended up working out great for you. It's been crazy to watch. But like, if you had, if you had been a hundred or a thousand percent certain that it was going to work.

• 12:37Ryan Holiday?

  First off, you would have been willfully ignorant of all the reasons that it couldn't work and the things you needed to. And most importantly, you would have been therefore discounting all the things you actually had to do to make it work.

• 12:50Chris Williamson?

  That's interesting. So is it your belief that sufficiently big or complex decisions are always going to have so many things on both sides of the ledger that the fuck yeah is often very hard to reach?

• 13:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's some historians said the one thing you can never miss out on when you're studying a person or a series of events is that it could have been otherwise. Like, it seems obvious in retrospect, there was going to go the way that.

• 13:16Chris Williamson?

  Depression. Nineteen twenties.

• 13:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, but it always could have gone otherwise. And most importantly, to the people in that moment, it could have gone otherwise, right? It could have gone, they could have done this or they could have done that. And so when you look back at your successes and your failures, understanding that like it was the result of these choices that you made or these things that you did is really, really important. Because you don't. The Midas touch is an ancient story that is a cautionary tale. Right? The idea that you are perfect, that you know, that you knew better is almost always a very dangerous way to come. It doesn't do anything about like me making up a story about how I always knew I was going to be a writer, even though that wasn't true. Me knowing that dropping out of college would lead to this and this and this,

• 14:02Ryan Holiday?

  or that my first book would do this, or that Stoicism would do this. Me telling myself a story about those things doesn't change why and how it actually happened. That's not the danger. The danger is me carrying that story forward to the next.

• 14:17Chris Williamson?

  Due confidence that doesn't reflect where you were at the time. This retrospective sort of glow up of your.

• 14:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, you're you're discounting the lucky bounces. You're discounting the things that you actually did that determined.

• 14:31Chris Williamson?

  Look how hard I had to work. This wasn't a fuck yeah, this wasn't an easy win. This was something that took blah, blah, blah, blah. Right, okay.

• 14:36Ryan Holiday?

  That's totally, and so, and so it it. You tend to see this with like people who do like really like groundbreaking revolutionary things. In reality, they were trying to do something much smaller or they had a much humbler view of it. And then it became this thing. But then if you update your identity as visionary, revolutionary, future seer, you're going to overreach on the next thing, almost certainly. And most things start small and you build on them. And so that's just a much safer, better way to come from it, in my view. So I just, I try, I try to stay in reality, not the narrative that other people make up or you make up. And that, when you do things that are in the public eye,

• 15:19Ryan Holiday?

  it's not just your own version of your story that you have to be careful of, like. Because I was so young when I was doing a lot of the stuff early in my career, there was this sort of whiz kid, kid going places. And that never works out well for those people. You know, you don't want that. I wanted to just be a person. I was just trying to, I was trying to strip that away and see it for what it was. And I was always trying to, in a way, like actively give credit to the things that were not up to me. So I wasn't over emphasizing the credit warranted by the things that I did control.

• 15:54Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. How do you maintain confidence when so much of what you're doing is kind of disparaging of that? Do you know what I mean?

• 16:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, like, there was some joke about the author Ayn Rand, who wrote this book, The Virtue of Selfishness. And the writer said something like, is that ever been something people needed a reminder of? Like, does anyone need help being more selfish? Like, we're intrinsically intuitively that, right? And I, I tend to find, for the most part, that I need, I need help stripping the ego away, not-

• 16:31Chris Williamson?

  Is that true? I wouldn't have guessed that about you.

• 16:33Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I think, I think if you're ambitious, if you're talented, if you're driven, you are, you know what you can do. I think you want to be reminding yourself of where you have the limitations or where you can get better. And, and, and that's a, that's a, that's a helpful feedback loop versus the other, right? So if your feedback loop is, look how amazing I am, look at everything I've done. I shoved it all in their faces. You know, that, that to me tends to create superiority complex, entitlement, complacency, et cetera. If you're focusing on where you can get better and what else you need to do, I find that tends to make you better and it tends to make you do those things.

• 17:15Ryan Holiday?

  So to me, confidence is based on the evidence of what you've done. But it is coupled with an awareness of where you could have done better, what wasn't a result of your efforts. So that balance of those two-

• 17:30Chris Williamson?

  Well, you've got, one of my favorite ones from you is self-belief is overrated, generate evidence.

• 17:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I say, I don't believe in myself, I have evidence. Like, I know what I've done because I have done it and I can see it and it's real. And like, when people talk about trusting the process.

• 17:48Ryan Holiday?

  It's much easier to do when the process is paid off for you. It's hard to trust the process when you've never seen it work. But when you've seen it work over and over, like I now know in my soul, what it feels like for a book to not be coming together. And I know how if you stick with it and you keep going, it does eventually come together. I know the rhythms of the process. I know all the different peaks and valleys of it. So I don't think that much about it. I just show up and I do the stuff, right? And, and that, that's it. You're, you, the more you do it, the more reps you get. You just have this confidence of like, I can handle anything because I've handled everything up until this point. That, that's, that's what, to me, what confidence is.

• 18:31Chris Williamson?

  So do you have more self-belief now than you did five years ago than you did 10 years ago?

• 18:36Ryan Holiday?

  I guess it depends on what we're saying. Like to me, belief is, uh, uh, you know, there's faith without evidence, right? I like, I have an understanding of what I am capable of. But the, the paradoxical part is like, how do you know you can do something that you've never done before? This is where it gets interesting. Um, when I sat down to write my first book, I did, I, I was confident that I could do it. Uh, because I'd done hard things before, because I'd worked on similar projects. I had an awareness of like the positive traits that I bought. But I didn't know I could do it. To know I could do it would be belief in something that I did not have. Uh, I, I could not actually say. Does that make sense?

• 19:19Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, it does. I suppose the alternative, uh, to know that you could do it would be that the task that was in front of you was so unchallenging to you. But there was no way that you could fail. There's a great Seth Godin bit about how, uh, imposter syndrome is just a natural byproduct of you stretching your limits. Each time that you do choose to do something, which is so far beyond what you've done before. Like, what would it mean to not feel like an imposter?

• 19:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, if you're not afraid, you're not reaching, right? And, and, and you're not, you're, you should be putting yourselves in, in positions where you're not sure if you can do it. You hope you can do it. You have confidence that you're not someone who quits when things are hard. And these are, these are what allow you to, to make a rational bet that it's not a totally reckless thing to do.

• 20:10Chris Williamson?

  You know, it was cool. I, uh, I, we were talking before we started about the live things that I was doing. You've got some live shows coming up this summer, Australia.

• 20:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 20:18Chris Williamson?

  Australia. Um, and I did this last year and, you know, I had a phenomenal first show in Dublin on a Thursday night. And it was classic sort of slightly rowdy Irish crowd that had had a few drinks beforehand. And it was, I mean, I got like a 500 person standing of it, which was totally like, I mean, I wasn't going out there giving a sermon, but it was just very nice and a lot of positive encouragement. And then the Manchester show, which was the Friday, I just ate shit. And I, it was a Friday. It was a slightly bigger venue. It was a bit brighter. Maybe my delivery wasn't quite there. My mom and dad were in the crowd and loads of my friends were there. So I was a little bit more tense and more nervous. And, uh, I, at the halftime interval, 45 minutes in, uh, I was, I just wasn't happy with how it was going.

• 21:03Chris Williamson?

  And I went and I looked in the mirror and I had a little word with myself and I was like, hey, 600 people came to see you in Manchester on a Friday night. Some of your best friends from your entire life are here and your mom and dad are sat four rows back. Like if you can't have fun with this as your second ever show and give yourself a bit of grace that it, this is a great learning experience for you. And also how can you turn it around? How positive can you now come out in the second? And that, you know, of all of the shows that I had, that little 30 second chat I had with myself in the mirror.

• 21:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Chris Williamson?

  Is one of the things that sticks in my mind the most. And that's an undeniable piece in my stack of proof that I can do the things that I say that I can do.

• 21:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And if it had gone the way, if it had just gone swimmingly, you wouldn't have had that sort of moment where you, I think what you actually emerge from that with is a, is a better thing, which is you have the sense that it can, you can lose your grip on it a little bit and grab it back.

• 22:03Chris Williamson?

  Bring it back a hundred percent.

• 22:04Ryan Holiday?

  And so that's a super valuable skill because now when you go up there. You're like, I got this, right?

• 22:10Chris Williamson?

  Things can go wrong. The projector can stop, the mic can die. We did this show in Vancouver and it was so much fun. That was another Friday night in Canada. This time it's me and James and dude, it was the audience was great. Venue was fantastic. Mike just kept on dying, kept on dying all the time. And we had so much fun with it because we were both really comfortable. And I was like, again, going back now, I was telling you about Jimmy Carl, one of the first shows I ever saw him do is Mike kept on dying. And he just styled it out and you want, you love the guy even more because of how charming he is with going through the nightmare. He doesn't get uptight. He doesn't start shouting at people. It was awesome. So yeah, I think oddly what we want in anticipation is for everything to go smoothly and for nothing to go wrong.

• 22:55Chris Williamson?

  And what we value in retrospect is all of the shit going sideways as long as we come out of it like relatively unscathed.

• 23:03Ryan Holiday?

  Or even not unscathed, right? Because you, let's say you just completely bombed, like it's just the worst. And I've had some, I've had some where, you know, like they told me the audience was this, so I built it around that. And then oops, we missed. Like I've had it go really bad and it's not that bad. You know what I mean? Like comedians talk about the, the feeling of bombing, the freedom of it because you don't die. It's not fun. It's not great, but you still get paid and you know, it is what it is.

• 23:36Chris Williamson?

  Strategic learning.

• 23:37Ryan Holiday?

  So, so having, having the worst case scenario happen to you can be freeing in another way, which is you realize it's not actually that bad of a worst case scenario.

• 23:45Chris Williamson?

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• 24:51Chris Williamson?

  Have you got any advice to people who are going through a difficult time financially, emotionally, relationally, whatever it might be? And they're thinking, is there a way that you've been able to project out ahead? The fact that in retrospect, this is going to be something that I'm really going to value.

• 25:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 25:06Chris Williamson?

  That going through difficult times at the time just sucks so hard. Have you been able to sort of meta cognizant, pull yourself out a little bit more?

• 25:15Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, Freud said once, in retrospect, the struggle will strike you as most beautiful. Like the years of struggle will strike you as most beautiful. And it's true, you think about the worst moments of your life from earlier. Now they're integrated into who you are. And in some ways we understand that we couldn't and wouldn't be where we are without those things. We know, like, we know, not only is that true in a positive way, but it's also just true in how the mind works. Like the, the mind is really good at, at, this is what cognitive dissonance does. It, it works on you in a way that, that makes this thing for the best, even if it wasn't for the best. Like, we're so worried about, and some of the, the cognitive psychology on this bears it out too.

• 25:59Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, we're worried about like, will I regret it? You won't regret it because you actually don't have that many regrets at all. That's the, the mind is, is pretty good at minimizing that feeling of regret. We convince ourselves that what happened was for the best. So we know this is almost certainly where we're going to end up in six months, in a year, in 10 years, in 30 years. And so why torture yourself in the interim, right? Why not give yourself some of that grace now? Why not go, hey, I understand that this is going to be a thing that forms me as a human. And in the future, I will be grateful for it.

• 26:41Ryan Holiday?

  Maybe I can't get there right now. There's this story Hemingway moves to Europe with his wife. He's writing in France. He's struggling as this, you know, this journalist, writer, freelancer, and he has this meeting with this, this, uh, this editor and he's meeting with him and he telegraphs his wife and says, hey, like, I need you to come meet me. Uh, this is Hadley. And, and so she gathers up all his stuff, thinking that, that Hemingway is going to want to show it to this editor. And, um, she hops on the train. She stops in Lyons or somewhere in France and gets off the train for a second to grab a newspaper, whatever. And she comes back and the briefcase full of all of Hemingway's writing is gone. Everything he has done in his life up until this point, just gone. They don't know if someone stole

• 27:26Ryan Holiday?

  it. They don't know if she lost it. They don't know if it was thrown away. So Hemingway loses everything that he had produced up until this point. And, uh, and it's obvious, like, when you hear this story, you know, okay, yes, this was the defining moment. He reinvents his style. He, he comes back from, we know how the story ends, but there's this letter that he writes to Ezra Pound. Um, and he goes, uh, this is right after it happens. He's telling him the story. And he goes, I know you're going to tell me this is all for the best. It's all going to work out. I should be grateful that it happened. And he says, but I'm not there yet. And I love that because that I think that's an important, it's okay to not be there. It's okay for it to feel shitty when you've gotten dumped, when you've failed,

• 28:10Ryan Holiday?

  when you've lost a bunch of money, when you've had to admit defeat on something. It's okay. But you can simultaneously know that in the future, you're not, you don't have to feel the same way and you almost certainly won't feel the same way. And, and I like that Hemingway said, I'm not there yet. He got there, but he wasn't there yet.

• 28:30Chris Williamson?

  This understanding of the process, this sort of acceptance of my own psychological fallibility, but this hope in the future as well.

• 28:37Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And he does get there very quickly, like almost, uh, immediately he starts writing again and his sparser sort of Hemingway-esque style comes as a result of this kind of burning, unintentional burning of the boats behind him. And he later, he even fictionalizes the scene where this happened to the writer. So he's able in that scene to articulate everything that Ezra Pound was trying to say to him in this moment, but he wasn't there yet. And so like, when, when the Stoics say the obstacle is the way, like, I try to be. You know, I'll get people to go, hey, you know, my brother in law just got diagnosed with cancer. Or, you know, my spouse cheated on me, or my company just failed. I don't like give them the book and be like, this is awesome.

• 29:22Ryan Holiday?

  Like really, you know, like really soak this shittiness in. Like it sucks to be a person and devastating heartbreaking things happen. It's just knowing that you can put the work in on that and you can get to a place where you feel very, very differently.

• 29:39Chris Williamson?

  Your most popular tweet, most consistent, most popular tweet.

• 29:44Ryan Holiday?

  I have zero idea what this would be.

• 29:46Chris Williamson?

  Be quiet, work hard and stay healthy. It's not ambition or skill that is going to set you apart, but sanity.

• 29:53Ryan Holiday?

  I would say that the thing when I hire people, the number one thing I'm looking for is I'm looking for, it's something I'm looking. I'm looking for the absence of, I want someone who is not nuts. Like I want someone who's not nuts. And the problem is a lot of young, ambitious people, they have shit that they have to deal with first. You know what I mean? They're, they're, they're too high strung, they're too worried, they're got bad boundaries. Like they're not, I, I, I was very cognizant early in my career of like not giving anyone the creeps. Not, not having bad energy. And that, that was why I would get invited to things.

• 30:34Ryan Holiday?

  That's why I would get, you know, asked to participate in things is that, that trust that, hey, this person isn't going to fuck this up. Is almost more important than they know you're not going to knock it out of the park. You're 20, you know, they, they want you to not fuck it up. So anyways, I just try to, I just try to work on my shit and, and I, I, I did have a lot of momentum early in my life. You know, the kid going places, I can't believe you're this young. How did you get here? And I just wanted that to play actually no part in my identity and how I saw myself. Because I, I also know that most of those people regress the mean.

• 31:14Ryan Holiday?

  So to actually have staying power to like, take advantage of getting shots early at stuff. The main thing is not fucking it up. That's like the main thing.

• 31:23Chris Williamson?

  It sounds like be quiet, work hard and stay healthy. It's not ambition or skill, but sanity. It sounds like there's a sort of long-termism.

• 31:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 31:33Chris Williamson?

  Component in there as well.

• 31:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I want, I want to, I don't want to. Do something, make a bunch of money and then not do the thing. I like doing the thing. I want to be able to do it and I want to, I want. I remember I listened to someone once say they were like, if you stick around long enough, you'll get a shot. Everyone gets a shot. Just don't fuck the shot up. And that's to me, I felt very fortunate to get those shots early. So it was actually more imperative that I.

• 31:58Chris Williamson?

  It's also more risky, you know, because you haven't put the requisite preparation and work in that whole. If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready thing. But I got the opportunity before I had chance to get ready.

• 32:10Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. Yeah. You, you, you think you want these things in your early twenties. You know, you want your first uh video to go super viral. You want your first show to get purchased. You want your first book to, to, you know, get a, a bidding war. You, you want your first company to have all the VCs knocking on the door. You think that's what you want.

• 32:35Ryan Holiday?

  If you get it, you're immediately.

• 32:40Ryan Holiday?

  Behind, you know, you immediately now have to go. Retrofit or, or earn this somewhat misguided faith that they put in. You know, you have, you have to, there's a lot of catching up.

• 32:52Chris Williamson?

  I mean, you are, you are speaking to me. So I signed with Portfolio uh and Hot Hot Chat in the UK.

• 32:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Chris Williamson?

  And.

• 33:01Chris Williamson?

  There's, they're expecting, they're expecting me to not fuck it up.

• 33:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:05Chris Williamson?

  Let's say that. And uh I'm like.

• 33:08Chris Williamson?

  Sat down with Mark a couple of weeks ago and I was like, dude, I'm, this is like fucking a big deal. I've got, I originally, he nearly killed me. The submission date originally was August this year. He was like. If you try and do that, I'll come and fucking smash your laptop. He's like, you can't do that. You can't do that.

• 33:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 33:24Chris Williamson?

  So we pushed it back by another year, which is fine. But um, yeah, I'm. I feel that a little bit.

• 33:32Ryan Holiday?

  And I think it's, it's, it's something people need to understand now more than ever because of how easy it is to potentially blow up.

• 33:42Chris Williamson?

  Bestow this random blow up on you. Yeah.

• 33:44Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, there's forces acting on you that have nothing to do with you. It's the right place, right time at just a level that, yeah, like you would have had to get vetted by all these gatekeepers before. You really would have had to pay your dues and build these relationships. And I'm not saying one system is better or worse than the other. It's just the algorithm can give you something that, that previously would have taken years and years to acquire.

• 34:07Chris Williamson?

  There's something, I read this really phenomenal breakdown from Gwyneth Boghul about how everything has turned into a game. And he talks about how people that are given fame and status and accolade. In the past, you could still have a huge, you know, be a child star and do all the rest of it. But for the most part, the returns weren't so horseshoe-y. They weren't so just, you know, like insane. Anybody that wasn't built psychologically to deal with fame was selected out of the pool before they got to the stage where they had that huge thing to deal with. Not true for everybody, but certainly what all of the like weird protection strategies like, have you got the right people around you and can you deal with it?

• 34:52Chris Williamson?

  Here's your first red carpet. Here's your second red carpet. Maybe you go through some of those before you get the equivalent of an Oscar. And yeah, on an egalitarian, no holes bars, Tik Tok-ification world, anybody can go. There's that dude that got, went viral for drinking ocean spray cranberry juice, skateboarding down the street. And then he puts some 50 year old song back in the chart, like just this 50 second video of like a world changing moment. You go.

• 35:23Chris Williamson?

  That man, he may have been very well prepared for it from other things, but there's no reason to expect that he would have been.

• 35:29Ryan Holiday?

  There's another layer on this. You know who Dr. Drew is?

• 35:31Chris Williamson?

  He kind of.

• 35:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, he did. He was for many years the host of this radio show called Love Line in on the West Coast. And he gave this survey. It was in a position that most academics wouldn't be able to do. He was able to like actually do a scientific experiment on famous people because every every day, multiple times a week, he had famous people in the studio. So he gave them like this narcissism questionnaire. He's basically looking at our does being a celebrity make you a narcissist? Or are celebrities attracted to our narcissists attracted to fame? And what he found, it was

• 36:09Ryan Holiday?

  interesting that the more craft oriented what you did was, the more protected you were or less likely you were to have some of these narcissistic traits.

• 36:21Chris Williamson?

  What's craft?

• 36:21Ryan Holiday?

  So like a drummer, which is a very hard thing to become famous for, it would be tend to be less narcissistic than a reality television star. And so if your path to success is based on you getting good and extremely good at a very hard thing, you have this safety mechanism, which is it's always kicking your ass. So even if the

• 36:47Chris Williamson?

  You're permanently generating evidence.

• 36:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, that also. So if the world is saying you're amazing, you're the best, you're God's gift, you know, one, how many hours it took to do the thing. And then two, it's still hard. It's still hard to you, especially if you're trying to get better at it. And that's very different than being blessed by the algorithm or, you know, being spotted on a street corner and suddenly you're on the cover of magazines. Like to do the work is a protection against that. And it would tend to be that the people who

• 37:21Ryan Holiday?

  Like, if you become famous for being a drummer, fame is a byproduct of you loving the drums, right? And that's, that's where you want to, Bruce Dickinson-

• 37:29Chris Williamson?

  So if the fame was taken away, the love of the drums would still remain?

• 37:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, Bruce Dickinson, the, the lead singer of Iron Maiden, said, you know, fame is the, the byproduct of creativity. And that, that, that's, but not always, not anymore. I think social media has changed that. But if your recognition or celebrity or platform is a result of you being this woodchuck that Chucks would, that's a much safer place than you are famous because you are famous and you're not exactly sure how you got famous.

• 37:59Chris Williamson?

  That's why audience capture is perilous in like a million different ways. One of them being that if you get famous, feeding red meat to an audience that you don't believe in, you'll not only resent the work, but you'll resent the audience. You'll resent these people that are so easy, you'll pity them. They're so easy to be conned into believing this thing and you feel like a puppet master. But in no way will you ever be connected to the work that you do.

• 38:25Ryan Holiday?

  But I think that's true. It's also if you got famous for saying something that maybe you didn't fully believe, or that you were just riffing on or whatever, not you got well-known for saying these things that you believe in, it's hard for you even to know what you believe. And the, you know, the expression, it's very hard to get someone to understand something that their salary depends on them not understanding. It's hard to, it's, it's hard period to know what your beliefs are, but it's very hard to maintain beliefs in the light of those beliefs either costing you money or another belief being better for you financially. So you get in this place where you're like, what is the, you wake up and you go, what does my audience want? Which is not the way that you should-

• 39:08Chris Williamson?

  Not instinct, it's not curiosity, it's not wonder, it's not awe. Yeah, uh, I went to a retreat last summer and this guy who used to create a ton of content online was there and I asked him why he'd stopped and he said, because I started feeling like I had to live up to in private the things that I was saying in public. He was making these proselytizations online about how to do business or about how a relationship should work. And maybe he did or did not believe it at the time, but he then sort of planted this stake in the ground that he could retroactively be compared to. It's like, I keep evolving and I want my opinions to be able to change very quickly. But everybody has this sort of post hoc hypocrisy thing to be able to say, you're

• 39:50Chris Williamson?

  saying that the S and P is now good. In the past, you said it was crypto and now blah, blah, blah. Like

• 39:54Ryan Holiday?

  You want to be able to change your mind.

• 39:56Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. And he had to live up to in private the things that he was saying in public. All right, next one. If it makes you a worse person, it's not success. If starting a business tears your relationships apart, makes you bitter or frustrated with people, then it doesn't matter how much money it makes or external praise it receives. That's not success.

• 40:16Ryan Holiday?

  What do you want your life to look like? Right? I think it's very easy to go, these people are successful. I'm going to do what they do. But if you don't have a sense of day to day, what you want your life to look like, or who you want to be in your life, it's very easy to lose your bearings very quickly because you're going to get offered things, you know? Do you want to go over here? You want to do this? You want to do that? That's where the audience capture thing comes into. You are doing what makes rational sense or is in your immediate self-interest, but it may well be taking you much, much further away from where you want to go or where you should go. Then you wake up one day and you know, your spouse leaves you, you wake up one day and your children hate you, you wake

• 40:58Ryan Holiday?

  up one day and you go, oh wait, I'm the bad guy. You know, like I'm, I'm not a positive contributor to humanity. And so I think being really clear with yourself about what success looks like is, is really important because it, if you start to get it, it becomes this rocket ship that you're riding on and, and you are not going to have the control then of it.

• 41:22Chris Williamson?

  Isn't it strange that? The judgment we all have, most of us have about what is success, we have to swim so fast upstream to get towards something which we probably actually value. Almost, I've got this really lovely idea I'm working on with a friend at the moment about hidden and observable metrics. And it's my contention that we often trade hidden metrics for observable metrics. So for instance, hidden metric might be time that you get to spend with your kids, quality of sleep, how much you don't need to work. And we'll trade that for an increase in salary, we'll trade an increase in salary for a longer commute, which downstream from that, how much more stressed are you, less time with your kids and blah, blah, blah, blah,

• 42:03Chris Williamson?

  blah. Because the best game in the world is money and job title and the way that you luck. But what is it that you actually do? And trying to bifurcate that's

• 42:14Ryan Holiday?

  The observable metrics are easy to compare against other people. And so we default to them because we go, this person has it. So having more than them is winning. This is where that competition impulse is so insidious. You go like I talked, whenever I hear someone tell me that they have a certain number of books that they're trying to sell, like they're like, I want this book to sell a million copies. I'm immediately not interested because I know that they just pulled this number out of their ass. There's no, there's no reason that a specific number is a goal. Like you're, so they've already said that their goal for the project is not to write something amazing. It's not to write something meaningful. And also, what timeline

• 42:57Ryan Holiday?

  are we talking about? You know, are we talking in any year? Or are we talking 50 years? Right? So that what they have effectively done almost always is they heard some book that they like sold this many copies. And then they've said, well, that's my thing. As opposed to figuring out their own race and thinking about it in a way that's sort of up to and about about them. So yeah, we, we, we look at people who have achieved things. And we don't spend a lot of time thinking about what it's like to be that person.

• 43:32Chris Williamson?

  Hundred percent, dude. I'm obsessed with that question.

• 43:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Chris Williamson?

  And it's Neil Strauss was sat in that seat a couple of weeks ago.

• 43:39Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, he's the best.

• 43:40Chris Williamson?

  I, first time I met him, we got on super well, like he's, he's a real one. And he told me, do you know what the title of his next book is?

• 43:47Ryan Holiday?

  No.

• 43:48Chris Williamson?

  It's called The Power of Low Self Esteem.

• 43:51Chris Williamson?

  Fucking awesome. I've texted him a bunch of times because I was like, dude, I just want you to know how sticky that idea is. The power of low self-esteem, you know, and the courage to be disliked, this sort of art, like it's kind of in that that sort of oxymoron kind of way. But I'm beyond obsessed with thinking about the price that people pay to be someone that other people admire.

• 44:11Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 44:11Chris Williamson?

  Like Elon Musk, that conversation he had with Lex Friedman, who's like, most people think they would want to be me, but they don't, they don't know, they don't understand. My mind is a storm. And then I've got this, which I've been wanting to drop on you for a little while. So Winston Churchill was, he's got this letter from his father when he doesn't make it into Sandhurst. Have you heard this letter? Yeah, it's just so fucking phenomenal. His father sort of accuses him of being as risking being a social wastrel, one of the many upper class toffs that never makes it. No longer will I ever lay even the slightest piece of credence at anything that you say, dot, dot, dot, your mother sends her love.

• 44:53Chris Williamson?

  Churchill was 19 and it's just, you know, I read this thing and I see someone that's driven to go and do phenomenal things. And maybe is one of the greatest military leaders, like one of them ever. And you think I bet on V day, whenever it was June 30th, 1945, something like that. I bet that, you know, he had this brief relinquishing of the internal tyrant.

• 45:17Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 45:17Chris Williamson?

  And then almost immediately it would have come back. There would have been no respite from his degree of low self-esteem. And that was why I was like, dude, you fucking.

• 45:27Ryan Holiday?

  There's a great book called Churchill and Son about Churchill's relationship with his own son, which was so much better than his relationship with his own father, but still fundamentally. You see the, the just generational wounds that being a shitty parent can have on a person and.

• 45:45Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, if you if you think doing all these things is going to make dad finally proud, you're going to be very sorely mistaken, right? Because he's supposed to be proud from the beginning and he's supposed to be able to make, you know, Mr. Rogers would say, like, you make the world better just by being you. The role of a parent is to communicate that fundamental fact.

• 46:08Chris Williamson?

  You are enough.

• 46:08Ryan Holiday?

  You are enough. I like you as you are. And sure, it's it is an incredibly powerful motivator to not feel that way. It's also an incredibly tragic motivator and ultimately destructive form of fuel. It's a

• 46:26Chris Williamson?

  Potent but toxic fuel.

• 46:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's fuel that destroys the engine. It's it's it's a one way trip, you know, you can't come back from it. You can't adjust. And it ruins all the things that you end up achieving.

• 46:40Chris Williamson?

  In other news, this episode is brought to you by Momentous. Trust really is everything when it comes to supplements. A lot of brands may say that they're top quality, but few can actually prove it, which is why I partnered with Momentous. They have the most rigorous testing and production standards of any supplement company I've ever found. One of my favorite supplements from them are their sleep packs, which contain an evidence backed blend of magnesium, L3-8 apigenin, and L-theanine in research backed dosages. If you are struggling to fall asleep on the night time, stay asleep throughout the night, or if you are not waking up feeling rested and revitalized in the morning, this is a great place to start. Dr. Andrew Huberman is actually the scientific advisor for Momentous. So if you've ever wondered what supplements he uses or what he would design if he could, this is the answer. Right

• 47:23Chris Williamson?

  now, you can get up to 32% off site wide by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to livemomentous.com/mordenwisdom using the code MODERNWISDOM at checkout. That's live M O M E N T O U S dot com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom at checkout. I think there's an interesting sort of two step process that you can go through. I've spoken about this with another friend, Alex, who very much is driven by that fuel. I wanted to make more money than my father had made in a year, then in his, in a decade, then in a lifetime, then in a lifetime, in a day. And you know, he's just sort of.

• 47:56Ryan Holiday?

  And then you tell your dad and he's like, well, what about this? You know, it never happens.

• 48:00Chris Williamson?

  But one of the things that I quite like from him, which is like, kind of like alchemy with this. When you're at the start of any journey, you're going to have bitterness and resentment and a point to prove and a chip on your shoulder and all of those things. And I think that what you really just need is activation energy to get started. And I think that in the beginning, using like, it's a toxic fuel that you can't use for too long. It's potent, but toxic in the long term. Like, that's the framing for me. I'm like, you know, when I think back to the reason I started any of the things that I started, it was to prove all of the people from school wrong, to, you know, get out of this culture that I didn't really like, all of the rest of it. And I'm like, right, okay. I don't need to necessarily feel ashamed of using that fuel. I do need to transcend it and know that I can't keep on relying on it.

• 48:45Chris Williamson?

  But I also think, look, if you're somewhere that you don't want to be, use what you've got.

• 48:50Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 48:51Chris Williamson?

  And just not for too long.

• 48:53Ryan Holiday?

  It's kind of like those rockets, you know, they're dropping fuel tanks and engines as they go. Cause you need different rockets to escape different levels of the atmosphere. Yeah, it's very hard. It's very hard to go from nothing to something without some kind of motivating factor. But you, the sooner you realize you're never going to get the satisfaction that you want, they're never going to admit they were wrong. You know, you're, you're never, it's never going to be satiated, the better, right? You have this moment where you get the thing that you want. You get something that you worked on for a very long time. You get it. And this is a pivotal moment in every ambitious person's life, right? You win a gold medal, you make the varsity team, you get a check for an incomprehensible amount of money.

• 49:38Ryan Holiday?

  And I remember I was mowing my lawn when I had number one for the first time.

• 49:45Ryan Holiday?

  It feels like, people go, what does it feel like? It feels like fucking nothing. It feels like nothing. It doesn't feel like anything because nothing has changed. Like, the work didn't change. The only thing that changed is someone recognized it in some way. Or, and it almost certainly was not the person or the people that you wanted it the most from. So in that moment, you know, you win the Super Bowl. Do you go, okay, I've now eliminated this fallacy, this idea that if I do this, I will feel good. Cause you don't feel good. That sadness or emptiness or weirdness you feel. You either eliminate it as a person, as a possibility. And then you can continue doing the thing from a new motivation

• 50:30Ryan Holiday?

  or a new understanding because you actually like doing the thing. Or you want to have some positive impact on the world. Or you just want to see how far you can take it. Or you go, oh, it's because it wasn't.

• 50:43Chris Williamson?

  I gotta do it twice.

• 50:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 50:44Chris Williamson?

  It's, I gotta prove that it wasn't a fluke.

• 50:46Ryan Holiday?

  I gotta prove it wasn't a fluke or I, oh, it's, it's not that I won one. I have to win the most Super Bowls, right? It's not that I made a billion dollars. I have to make the most money there is. I have to. I, yeah, I have to, I have, you go, oh, it's just the dosage wasn't enough.

• 51:01Chris Williamson?

  The goalposts keep getting moved. How, how possible do you think it is to realize that the mountain is the wrong mountain to climb without having climbed it?

• 51:11Ryan Holiday?

  Probably impossible. There, I think there's some, some.

• 51:14Chris Williamson?

  I've battled with this a lot.

• 51:15Ryan Holiday?

  Ineffable, like, here, here's the thing. So it's not hopeless. Like, people who are listening to this and they're like, just, it is easy for you to say, I've never done. I get it. You're gonna have to experience some of this to get it. But what you're hearing now should help you recognize that pattern when you're in it faster.

• 51:33Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 51:34Ryan Holiday?

  So you don't have to come to this same hard one epiphany or understanding, which by the way, almost every, appears in every biography and memoir and character study and work of art and literature ever. You don't have to discover it on your own. Just take it, let it sit there. There's a, there's this experience you have where you read something and you. Either it doesn't make sense to you or it doesn't register to you at all. And then years later, something happens or you experience something and you go, that's what that was about. Pieces come together and a lot of what you're doing early on in your career in life is just accumulating those things.

• 52:14Ryan Holiday?

  So you don't know that this is gonna be the final piece of that puzzle until later.

• 52:20Chris Williamson?

  It's so funny, man. Like, I'm glad that you said, I think it's essentially impossible because I've kind of arrived at that as well. It's far easier to achieve our material desires than to renounce them. Uh, and that goes for statusful validation. You know, pick, pick your domain of, of pursuit of choice. But it's kind of funny where I think I've believed and known that inside. I'm like, would you believe this is true? Yes, yes. And do you genuinely believe it? Yes, yes, I genuinely do. And are you still gonna pursue that thing? Yes, I am. Like, it's one of those lessons that you want, you want to face palm yourself to like implode your own head that hard. Because you go, I knew this and I believed it and I still had to go through that.

• 53:03Chris Williamson?

  And maybe that's just like the cost of doing business as a human.

• 53:06Ryan Holiday?

  Look, it's, it's very hard to, to become successful at something, to, to make a lot of money, to master a craft. But in many ways, it's easier to do that than to have self-awareness and self-understanding. Like, like, there's an expression, it's easier to be a great man than a good man. Like, it's easier to win public office, uh, build a, in, in institution, make your mark in history, than it is to, to just like be a good dude, uh, be a good human being. And I would say the rare thing is to have both. Like, how many people can, um, be great at something or be world-class at something?

• 53:47Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, maybe it's impossible to be the number one all-time goat at something and be balanced, but to be like in contention, uh, in the league and have a balanced, normal, family life, be a pot, like that. And so to me, if the sooner you can go, okay, actually, that's the mountain that I want to climb.

• 54:06Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 54:07Ryan Holiday?

  That's a, that's a worthwhile mountain. That's a mountain. That has a positive impact on the people around me that and so like I just did this book on the the virtue of justice. I think when people hear justice, they think like legal system and law and politics and that can be part of it, but like just the fundamental level to decide what you're going to be great at. There, there's a quote from Marx's realist, which I love. He goes, he's writing this in meditations himself. He goes, a better wrestler, question mark, like, because he, that was his hobby. He liked to basically do an ancient form of mixed martial arts. He's like, a better wrestler, he says, but not a better friend, a better forgiver of faults, a better citizen, a better human being. And so he's saying like, look, why am I working? He's like,

• 54:52Ryan Holiday?

  I'm, I'm working at getting better all, but where am I working on just being a good friend or a good human being?

• 55:00Chris Williamson?

  What am I optimizing for?

• 55:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And, and, and so the decision to say, hey, actually, these two goals are, they're not in conflict with each other, but there's a tension to each other. And the decision to not be what they call an art monster is great. Like Hemingway, great writer, shitty human being, like leaves all sorts of damage in his wake. And that's so true for like a lot of the people that we hold up. And so the decision to go, hey, maybe what I'm aspiring to is to not be a better writer than Hemingway, but to be a really good writer, but not such a piece of shit.

• 55:33Chris Williamson?

  Significantly better person. Yeah.

• 55:35Ryan Holiday?

  What's easier?

• 55:36Chris Williamson?

  I'm obsessed with this, this whole sort of section. I must have thought about it probably more than any other topic for the last few years. Yeah. So what are you optimizing for? What are you sacrificing? Are you sacrificing happiness in order to be successful? So that when you're finally sufficiently successful, you can allow yourself to be happy. If you just cut off this sort of need for validation. Oh dude, it's, it's so interesting. It's so, so interesting. All right, let's do one more. Let's do one more and then we can get into the new book. Uh, what do I love from these? This is good. Stop wanting things to be easy and prepare for them to be hard.

• 56:09Ryan Holiday?

  That seems pretty straightforward. I you think you wanted to go, you think you want all green lights and you think you want all the things to pop every time. And, you know, show me someone for whom that went well. Where you build it. It's like, look, you want to be, you think you want to have all these natural resources. Like you want to be super tall. It'd be wonderful if you inherited money. And then you look at the people to whom that advantage also created a pretty great deficiency. And then you go, oh, no, maybe you need just, there's a right amount of struggle and difficulty. You don't want everything to go wrong, but it's probably not going to all go right.

• 56:53Ryan Holiday?

  And, and so when you get those, those moments of struggle to just go, this is actually what I asked for. Like this is, this is what I need. You can, I can make the best of anything. That's kind of how I think about it.

• 57:05Chris Williamson?

  I've heard you say before that you're a naturally anxious person or you have a, a, sometimes anxious disposition. How have you overcome that or how do you deal and compensate?

• 57:17Ryan Holiday?

  I'm working, I'm working on it all the time. I mean, I go to therapy for it. I build a routine around it. I build, you know, I built my life around it. It's, it's understanding like my desire to control things or have them be a certain way is, is a recipe for misery. You know, that, that it's like my, my, like, it's, it's usually the expectation or the, the desire that gets you into trouble. Right? Like, like I, I need it to go this way or it will be stressful. And what I noticed in my own life, what I'm working on is I noticed the way in which

• 58:01Ryan Holiday?

  this is where you know, you have a compulsion about something like, it's one thing to just be like anxious, like, hey, is this guy going to fall? I don't wake up just feeling anxious like that. What I do is I create sort of a cycle. So I pack things or I set things up in a way where they need to go a certain way. And then the reward for them going that way is not good, it's relief. And so you have this sort of compulsive cycle where you are creating tension and stress. You're just ratcheting that up, the stress. And the only reward is that. There's some moderate release of the stress.

• 58:39Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 58:39Ryan Holiday?

  It's never good.

• 58:39Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Oliver Berkman calls it productivity debt.

• 58:42Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:42Chris Williamson?

  He says you start each day at minus 10 and the best that you can hope for is to get back to zero.

• 58:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 58:46Chris Williamson?

  You don't start at zero and good things take you to plus 10.

• 58:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's a very fragile place because all these things have to go right for you to feel not shitty. Not like, hey, if everything goes right, you're like, what an awesome day. But if everything goes right, you feel like you kept everything perfectly balanced.

• 59:04Chris Williamson?

  Correct.

• 59:05Ryan Holiday?

  And that's a, yeah.

• 59:06Chris Williamson?

  Take me through the highest return routine things that you do.

• 59:13Ryan Holiday?

  You know, I'm, it's weird. I'm very routine oriented person. A lot of what I'm trying to do and having kids has been really helpful slash also awful. In the sense that your control over that goes away. And so, you know, just realizing like, hey, if I try to keep things this way, maybe I can keep them this way. I can keep them this way until my kids are 17 or 18. And then I'll wonder why they don't want to come home from college. Right? So, so realizing when, when you have systems or habits or, you know, practices that are in conflict with other things that are important. So, so this thing that I've developed that's,

• 59:55Ryan Holiday?

  you know, been a cycle that, that's, you know, let's say, tolerable for me slash rewarding for me is now in conflict with this other thing that's important to me, which is like the happiness of my household.

• 1:00:08Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:08Ryan Holiday?

  And so I, I don't, I don't have a good answers to this one because it's something I'm still working through and reading a lot about and talking about and working on. But like realizing like, oh, I've created this like cage that I'm in. And that seems like a strange reward for being successful at the thing that you do. Not that I mind being disciplined or whatever, but I'm saying that like, The reward for getting to a place where you don't really need to think about money, you don't really have anything to prove, you're your own boss, you decide what you work on, and you have skills, should not be waking up at minus 10.

• 1:00:49Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:00:49Ryan Holiday?

  You shouldn't wake up at plus 100, you know, that's probably delusional, and not conducive to doing good work, or, you know, being a nice person. But like, if you can't get to a place where you feel good, where you feel full, from that, probably more is not gonna get you there.

• 1:01:09Chris Williamson?

  It's like a negative hedonic adaptation, in a way, that as my capacity increases and my expectations about myself increase, I don't take more pleasure and gratitude in the things that I've done and the skills that I've accumulated. I just continue to ramp up the ever-increasing relative goal that I have. And yeah, I mean, dude, what an interesting insight to think about the fact, if everything goes well, I end up in a place where I'm in more of a cage than I would have been in before, if I don't think about it carefully.

• 1:01:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. My seven-year-old said something the other weekend. He was like, we've got, I was like, we gotta go, you know, like, let's wrap this up, guys. And he's like, we've got, he goes, a seven-year-old goes, you know, we've got nothing to do and nowhere to be. And he was totally fucking right, you know, we have, it's Saturday.

• 1:01:57Chris Williamson?

  Wisdom bitched by a seven-year-old.

• 1:01:58Ryan Holiday?

  It's Saturday, there, like, there's nothing on the schedule, there's nowhere we have to be, there's nothing we have to do. And yet, what I'm doing is, the thing that's served me so well as a person, which is,

• 1:02:10Chris Williamson?

  Control.

• 1:02:11Ryan Holiday?

  Control, don't waste time, do things efficiently, go to the next thing, squeeze one more thing in.

• 1:02:17Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:19Ryan Holiday?

  You know, first off, it's nonsense. And second, I get rewards from that, right? But like, the cost is borne by this person who's never been to this restaurant before. Or, you know, or has to be in school all weekend, this is his weekend, right? So, so realizing that, like, yeah, the, if, if the reward is not,

• 1:02:43Ryan Holiday?

  Look, the reward should for success should not be that you just do nothing and you're good, but it should also relieve in some way the emptiness or the needing to prove, right? Like you should, you should be coming at it from a place of enoughness rather than the same sort of compulsion or emptiness.

• 1:03:08Chris Williamson?

  Scarcity cycle.

• 1:03:08Ryan Holiday?

  Exactly. Cause it's, it's objectively not true anymore.

• 1:03:11Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. Yeah. I, I have a good amount of work to do before I have kids. I can't wait to be a dad, but that is going to be a red pill and a half for me to.

• 1:03:23Ryan Holiday?

  It's good to try to do that work before. And then in some ways it's like the, you know, you've got to succeed to realize success is not going to be, you have to, you have to just do it.

• 1:03:33Chris Williamson?

  The forcing function of the child is ultimately going to be the thing.

• 1:03:37Ryan Holiday?

  Because it changes you like hormonally and, and biologically and logistically, you know, it just changes you in every way. And, and so all these things that you could only consider or contemplate before are now real. And you also have this thing of the consequences of your decision. You, you realize the, the willingness with which you would subject yourself to abuse or consequences to your decisions and just grit your teeth and bear it. You have to be a real asshole to not be affected by watching the consequences of the decisions or habits or lifestyle that you have manifest in a child, an innocent person.

• 1:04:17Chris Williamson?

  Isn't that interesting that it's kind of like that, I think on average people finish 50% of antibiotics courses, but they make their dogs finish 95% that, you know, we're prepared to torture ourselves in a way, but the second that we have this external thermometer type thing that says things like, we've got nowhere to go and nothing to do.

• 1:04:38Ryan Holiday?

  Well, have you done any inner child work?

• 1:04:40Chris Williamson?

  I, I'm going to leave from here to go and do some. I've been doing it every twice a week for a couple of months now.

• 1:04:45Ryan Holiday?

  It can be, it's been a transformal, a transformational thing for me, but I was very stuck.

• 1:04:55Ryan Holiday?

  Understanding who and what that child was like my my memories of childhood are not great, which is not a great.

• 1:05:02Chris Williamson?

  Let me fix this thing. I can't remember.

• 1:05:04Ryan Holiday?

  Well, which is not a great verdict on your childhood. Like, most people either really good or really bad. They know what they were feeling when they were six or 10 or 11. And you're just like, I don't really remember. That's a that's indicative in and of itself. But when you have a physical manifestation of you at every age and every day, it's you one day older. It's this isn't a reason to have kids, but it's a very powerful thing about having kids is suddenly you go, oh, this is what a seven year old thinks. This is what a seven year old needs. This is who and they look like me and they talk like me.

• 1:05:42Chris Williamson?

  You started to see yourself and your own development arc, despite the fact that much of it was omitted from your own memory in the experience of.

• 1:05:51Ryan Holiday?

  And you can have you can have compassion and feel like the part of what inner child work is, as I understand it, is about loving and reparenting that child who if you're disassociated from that person, that can be difficult to do.

• 1:06:05Chris Williamson?

  If you've got a surrogate you.

• 1:06:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:07Chris Williamson?

  In front of you.

• 1:06:08Ryan Holiday?

  You're like, you know, and you also have this benefit, this reality of like, you can see that seven year old interacting with your own parents. And that's also illustrative. Because then you're like, oh, okay, I see.

• 1:06:22Chris Williamson?

  That's so interesting.

• 1:06:24Ryan Holiday?

  This is what they obviously need in this scenario. And this is what they're incapable of giving in that scenario. It makes sense. So that's been a powerful.

• 1:06:32Chris Williamson?

  Who knew that having kids was the ultimate therapeutic tool? That's what should be prescribed. We don't need psilocybin therapy. Everybody have a couple of kids and just watch them like a hawk.

• 1:06:44Ryan Holiday?

  There's a scene in that Churchill book I was telling you about where he's sitting, talking to his son and his daughter in law. And he just hits him and he goes, I'm pretty sure I talked to you this evening more than my father talked to me in his entire life cumulatively. And so that's an insight that you can only really have with the next generation.

• 1:07:09Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think certainly for me, I'm an only child, so there's no split test.

• 1:07:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:07:14Chris Williamson?

  There's no one there that anchors other memories. Do you remember when we went to the thing and this fish and chip shop and that happened? There's none of that. And

• 1:07:22Ryan Holiday?

  So you don't know what's real or not.

• 1:07:23Chris Williamson?

  You don't know what's real. There was never, there's no additional vantage point to look at your memories from or to prompt things that are just latent and probably would be pulled out in that same kind of a way. And yet there's no, nothing to compare and contrast against. Like, that's just childhood. You know, it's just, that's just the way that it was. You have no idea. Is this normal, abnormal, better, worse? Like, there's no, there's no such thing as relativity in this. It's just absolute. Yeah. How fascinating, man. I'm, I'm, I'm really happy that you're using holistically, healthily, using, raising a kid to also improve yourself and sort of work on yourself as well. That's really,

• 1:08:08Chris Williamson?

  I mean, what a gift as well that you're unknowingly, that your son is able to give you, you know, just simply by being, that he's able to give you this thing where you go, wow, like by raising him and being rewarded for it, I'm also like fixing myself.

• 1:08:24Ryan Holiday?

  But it's a choice you make, right? Because you go, hey, get in the fucking car, right? You could, like, like, and I can, you can, you can see the, the, the choice that parents make. And I see this because I do this thing called Daily Dad, which is like a parenting email every day. And you can see, like, I basically cannot look at the comments anymore because the, the shitty dad energy is so like triggering for me, you know?

• 1:08:49Ryan Holiday?

  Like the, the things that people manage to disagree with, you know, it's, it's, it's interesting. But yeah, you, you can decide to, I, it just hit me at some point. I go, I think about the pro, I think about the pain I feel or the problems I've had in my life because of things from my childhood and how those have been passed down generationally. And then the decision to go.

• 1:09:17Ryan Holiday?

  That the the default is that that happens again. And so if you want it to go differently, the amount of work that you have to do is considerable.

• 1:09:26Chris Williamson?

  I think that's a really heroic thing for guys, especially, you know, we're going to get on to it when we talk about justice. But, you know, a modern crisis of masculinity and men finding purpose and all of the rest of it. Really, if you're millennial, maybe even Gen X, but millennial, Gen Z, your parents and you come from different universes in many ways, and they didn't have the tools to be able to do this stuff. And I'm sure that had they have had the tools, they would have made changes that would have blah, blah, blah. But you do. And I mean, what is more heroic than acting as a breakwater or a dam from this sort of weird parental generational patterning, trauma, response, coping mechanism, all of this stuff, being like, hey, guess what? It ends here.

• 1:10:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:10Chris Williamson?

  This is the end.

• 1:10:11Ryan Holiday?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, or I'm going to do my best to make it not as bad.

• 1:10:15Chris Williamson?

  Mostly ends, it mostly ends.

• 1:10:16Ryan Holiday?

  Right. Yeah, yeah, but no, no, that like, yes, again, we tend to think of justice as like, okay, like philosophers want to debate like the trolley problem. Or let's discuss whether we live in a computer simulation or not. Or, you know, we want to discuss, should it have gone this way or that way at this sort of historical or political juncture point? And it's all very interesting, but I much more imperative are the sort of day to day decisions we make as people in our own lives. And, you know, you want to talk about multi generational impact. Chances are 95% of the work that all of us do will be very quickly forgotten. But like, I'm affected by choices that my great grandfather made.

• 1:10:58Ryan Holiday?

  I'm very affected by choices my grandfather made, and I'm extremely affected by the choices that my father made. And so that the decision to focus on that sphere just as much as you focus on the others like is a critical responsibility to assume.

• 1:11:15Chris Williamson?

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• 1:12:00Chris Williamson?

  You can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2, and five free travel packs, plus that 90 day money back guarantee by going to the link in the show notes below or heading to drinkag1.com/wisdom. That's drinkag1.com/wisdom. You're in the middle of the four stoic virtues at the moment. I think maybe the only one less sexy than justice is temperance.

• 1:12:26Chris Williamson?

  So why say that justice is the most important? Like, what happens without justice?

• 1:12:30Ryan Holiday?

  Well, justice is, justice is what everything else has to be directed towards. So the courage to put yourself out there, to take some risk. Is it admirable in pursuit of a socially destructive end? Or a nonsensical end because you've had your brain scrambled by things that you watched online?

• 1:12:52Ryan Holiday?

  It's funny, temperance, temperance is not sexy. So I render it as discipline. And it, it's far and away the best performing in the series and almost certainly will be. Because it's a thing people think they want and definitely need the most. Justice to me, though, is the North Star, the value that unlocks the others. If you don't, if you don't have a code, a moral compass, a sense of, you know, what's right and wrong, or why you're here or not here. What is, what is any of it for?

• 1:13:27Chris Williamson?

  What is the, talk to me about the relationship between justice and the other three?

• 1:13:33Ryan Holiday?

  Marcus Aurelius's line is, is the fruit of this life is good character and works for the common good. I like that definition of justice. So first off, like just the things that you control. Do I keep my word? How do I treat other human beings? You know? Like what ethics do I operate under? How do I run my business? How do I, you know, do I litter or not litter? You know, like just the little decisions we make about what kind of person we're going to be. That's character. And then the other side of that is, you know, the impact that we try to positively have in the world, in the political sphere, the social sphere, the things we write, the things

• 1:14:14Ryan Holiday?

  we say, to be participate in the issues of our time. So that tension, that the balance of those two is, is how I would define this idea of justice, like what the right thing is. And then the other virtues are in pursuit of that, like courage. If we lived in a perfectly just world, it wouldn't take any courage to pursue these things, but we don't, right? In fact, most of the people that we admire, say a Martin Luther King or a Gandhi, we admire them simultaneously, not just for their strong sense of right and wrong. They're not just these monkish figures who retreated from the world, but the way, the

• 1:14:52Ryan Holiday?

  courage and the tenacity with which they, they brought that thing into being. And then we throw the fourth, like the, the, the learnedness and the, the astuteness in some cases, like the, the, the, the political genius of them. This is where the discipline of wisdom comes in. So that there, there are these inseparable, interrelated virtues that for the most part you cannot separate. You know, knowing what the right thing is and doing the right thing are very different things. And so even, even the virtue of justice, just having a good conscience is in and of itself only so valuable.

• 1:15:33Chris Williamson?

  So that's why it's right thing, right now.

• 1:15:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:15:37Chris Williamson?

  Because presumably deeds are important here. There's no point in just thinking about justice. There's a role of practicing and actually doing the thing.

• 1:15:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I don't know about you, but I, like, I didn't spend a lot of time in the book in these sort of incredibly complex philosophical discussions about, you know, should you do this or should you do that? I tend to find, at least in my own life. Knowing what the right thing is, is usually pretty obvious to me. Should I say this or not say this? Should I go with this or that? Should I work with this person or not work with this person? Should I refund this money or keep this money? You know, should I buy this or buy that? Like, what is right is usually pretty obvious. Where the complexity comes in is when the mind works on the reasons why you don't have to do it this time. Or you don't have to do it right away.

• 1:16:30Ryan Holiday?

  And so that, like, I wanted to, I wanted to try to do, to just say, do the right thing felt to me insufficient. It's doing it now. You know, like, we tell ourselves, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go do all this stuff. That I'm gonna be really rich and I'm gonna be a philanthropist where I'm not a garbage person. You know, and then how many people make that turn? We don't make the turn. And so that, that's sort of where I was coming at it from.

• 1:16:55Chris Williamson?

  Florence Nightingale, pursuing, actually doing a thing, competence, pursuing justice. What was the story there?

• 1:17:01Ryan Holiday?

  So she gets, she's this, uh, young girl in England. She has rich parents in Victorian England. The expectation of a girl of her stature is, it's not just there's no expectations. There is, uh, an expectation of no expectations. Like, you are not to do things. And so she, she just hears, one day she hears this call that, you know, from above, that she should find a vocation, that she should help the less fortunate. She gets called to nursing and her parents are like, are you out of your fucking mind? You cannot do that. It was like, it's considered almost worse than prostitution.

• 1:17:44Ryan Holiday?

  That like a, a young, rich, white woman would, would be in the same room as these-

• 1:17:50Chris Williamson?

  Be like Kim Kardashian working at KFC or something.

• 1:17:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, dirty, rowdy soldiers. It was, there was all this immorality applied to it. And so she, you know, based on the, the sort of, the social pressures of her time, she ignores the call. For eight years, eight years later, she gets the call again. So 16 years go by of her just ignoring the call. And then finally, the call becomes much more explicit. And again, to her, there's a religious connotation to this call. But the call is, um, are you gonna let what other people think? Deter you from being of service or being in my service. And she finally decides, no, but she realizes that she has to break from her parents in order to do this. Not just from her parents, but from all conventions of the time.

• 1:18:36Ryan Holiday?

  And so she does, she, she, she decides to volunteer in this hospital. And she very quickly realizes like, there was no place more dangerous in 19th century England than a hospital. Like your mortality rate in a hospital was exponentially higher than anywhere else. Because that's where they sent all the sick people who got the other people sick. The idea of like, keeping a window open or treating wounds or washing their hands. Not all this was not there. And so she realizes, I think this is another important part of this idea of doing the right thing. She realizes that doing the right thing isn't just this place or this thing you come at from your heart.

• 1:19:16Ryan Holiday?

  That you have to develop like actual competence in the thing you want to do and the good you are trying to do.

• 1:19:25Chris Williamson?

  Because without the competence, what real impact are you able to have with your good intentions?

• 1:19:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, she says it only in medicine would we have to come up with this idea of first do no harm. Because that was not the, the status quo at that time. That like, most of the things were well intentioned, but ultimately harmful. And so she actually starts to study these things and she's like, hey, maybe actually none of this shit we're doing matters. If we just fed people better, if we stopped giving them moldy, you know, rancid meat, might they just survive? And so she sort of reimagines medical care like from the ground up. And she becomes like, there's this famous Longfellow poem about nightingale.

• 1:20:12Ryan Holiday?

  And she's this, you know, apparition in white and it's beautiful. And, and one of her aunts who volunteers in the hospital with her was ultimately, that's the thing. When people have the courage to pursue something, they often bring people along with them. And she says, like, I, I hate this poem because that's not what the job is at all. She's not going with. With a candle from bed to bed, helping people. She's like, I wish you could see her writing the letters and poring over balance sheets and fighting for resources and insisting on sanitary standards. She was like, it's this incredibly unsexy bureaucratic battle that she is a master fighter in that is saving these lives, right?

• 1:20:56Ryan Holiday?

  So like, one of the things I really am fascinated by is not just people who are morally correct, but people who had the political will or the strategic mind or the organizing capacity or the the PR mastery to change public opinion about a thing or to build a movement from nothing. We see this now, you know, young people get upset about stuff and they're like, let's protest because the civil rights movement was based on protest. But do you know why the civil rights protesters protested? It's because it was illegal for them to protest. It was a very deliberate tactic to seek conflict with the police, just as Gandhi was

• 1:21:41Ryan Holiday?

  doing, for the police to morally undermine their authority by enforcing unjust laws. Yeah. What was the what was the Gandhi story? I mean, Gandhi understands, the British were laughably outnumbered in in India. The could could he have led a guerrilla movement against the the rule of the British? Almost certainly. Could he have led like a violent uprising against the British? Almost certainly. But he understood that it wasn't just about the it wasn't just about sort of self-rule in the political sense, but it was about self-rule

• 1:22:22Ryan Holiday?

  in the spiritual and economic sense. It was about becoming independent masters of one's self. But we don't give Gandhi enough credit for the geniusness, for the genius with which he was able to.

• 1:22:40Ryan Holiday?

  Take on the greatest military power of the day without military means and not just like kind of defeat them, but humiliate them. And the political astuteness with which he operated is again, something we don't understand that that nonviolence was both an invention, like some a tactic that did not exist before, and then also a genius tactic in a world of mass media, which he operated in, that what he was doing was performing for the newspapers at home and undermining colonialism as a whole. The salt march was done with the intention of What's the salt march?

• 1:23:23Ryan Holiday?

  So he marches from the interior of India to the coast to gather up salt, which was heavily taxed by the British. Basically, the British, they don't actually conquer India. They just conquer and loot its resources and then they use the people who lived there as the means of financing this and the labor to exploit it. And Gandhi proposes this campaign where they'll go on this like 20 day march from the interior of India to the coast to gather salt, which was forbidden without paying a tax. And the so first off, just a 20 day, slow moving caravan is itself this media story.

• 1:24:07Ryan Holiday?

  Um, and you know, this is also the beginning of cameras, like video cameras, but but mostly radio and newspaper reports. And and and the culmination of it with the clash with the British, where unarmed protesters are being slammed with rifle butts and their hands are being smashed by, you know, boot heels is to illustrate the moral abomination that is inherent in colonialism and to ultimately make occupation and exploitation politically and morally untenable. What Gandhi fundamentally understands Christianity

• 1:24:50Ryan Holiday?

  And what its levers are, and he's exploiting, he's shoving it back in their face. This is who you are? This is what's being done in your name?

• 1:25:01Chris Williamson?

  Forgiveness, grace, yeah.

• 1:25:04Ryan Holiday?

  How you treat them, the, the, the meek. And, and so Gandhi, as a political strategist, we don't think about enough, which is one of the things I got really excited about in the book.

• 1:25:16Chris Williamson?

  But given that there's lots of corruption in the world, why play by the rules when other people aren't?

• 1:25:23Ryan Holiday?

  What do you mean?

• 1:25:24Chris Williamson?

  Oh, we're talking about justice here. We're talking about doing the right thing.

• 1:25:29Ryan Holiday?

  Why be a good person?

• 1:25:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, there's loads of corruption in the world. Other people don't need to, or choose to not play by these rules.

• 1:25:35Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 1:25:35Chris Williamson?

  They get some advantages, so they expedite success, avoid failure, do the thing, look cooler, all the rest of it. Why should, why should we play by the rules?

• 1:25:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, look, keeping your word is expensive. Giving a shit about how your decisions manifest themselves in the environment or other people, these are all, these all add costs to the bottom line, right? Like, the, the idea of caring about whether your employees get a, make a living wage or not is, in some ways,

• 1:26:08Ryan Holiday?

  like self-destructive, right? Like, it, it, in a fully capitalist society, it's a bad call.

• 1:26:15Ryan Holiday?

  But I think there's, I think you can make two cases for it. The first would be like what John Mackey at Whole Foods would say, is that like, you know, when everyone wins, actually, the business does much better. The idea of thinking about your, expanding your definition of, of stakeholders actually creates a more sustainable and viable business.

• 1:26:38Ryan Holiday?

  And also in a media world, makes it easier to market said business, right? Like, when there's not a lot of transparency or visibility, you can get away with things that I think are increasingly less possible. The Stoics talk about not doing anything that requires walls or curtains.

• 1:26:58Chris Williamson?

  You know? Full transparency from what you do, what you say, what the public appears to see.

• 1:27:03Ryan Holiday?

  And, and in certain environments, there are walls and curtains. But in a media world, That can go away like that. So the thing you thought you were getting, sure, the sweatshop in China is abysmal, but China's many thousands of miles away and nobody cares. And they don't care until they care, right? Then you find out and this thing that you thought was saving you 12% a year on your margins is evaporated in one singular PR crisis.

• 1:27:35Chris Williamson?

  That's the first thing?

• 1:27:36Ryan Holiday?

  That's the first. The second is, well, what kind of person are you? Like, there's a Stoic argument, or there's a Christian argument that you treat people well, you don't treat them poorly because eventually you die and you get judged in heaven.

• 1:27:52Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's one argument. I think the other argument is there's a hell on earth that you can live in also. And that's a hell where you have to live in denial of the consequences of your decisions on other people. So the reason, the reason not to do it, the reason to be honest, the reason to be decent, the reason to be kind, is it sucks to not be those things. It might make you somewhat financially more successful to not be those things. But to what end? What do you do? What do people spend the money on? They spend the money on trying to feel good. And you could just feel good by doing good.

• 1:28:35Chris Williamson?

  So living with the consequences of your decisions. I love that idea about like having to deny the things that you did to yourself.

• 1:28:43Ryan Holiday?

  There's an expression that the things you work on, work on you.

• 1:28:45Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:28:46Ryan Holiday?

  And so if your business, if your life, if how you've set up what you do is inherently exploitative, or merciless, or toxic, I think it's very unlikely that that is not worming its way into who you are. The person that you have to be to turn those things off inside you, I think ultimately comes.

• 1:29:18Ryan Holiday?

  Back around. And I'm not just saying that in a karma way. I'm saying that the blind spots that you have to develop, the indifference that you have to develop, sets you up for a kind of catastrophic failure or collapse. You end up making the decision or the decisions that there is a, there is a seed of destruction in that.

• 1:29:40Chris Williamson?

  Even in a less

• 1:29:46Chris Williamson?

  utilitarian transactional, literal way.

• 1:29:49Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:50Chris Williamson?

  Most of the people listening to this, if they're an hour and 40 minutes into me and you waffling on about bro psychology, bro philosophy, they already think and reflect and ruminate. They consider, they, they are asking themselves questions like, is this the best that I could be doing in my life? If you think that you are going to be able to do something which really goes against your principles, your honor, whatever code of conduct you want to live by, and not know that you've done it.

• 1:30:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:22Chris Williamson?

  You're kidding yourself.

• 1:30:23Ryan Holiday?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:30:23Chris Williamson?

  Like, if you are a thoughtful person, this is, Alain de Botton says, loneliness is a kind of tax we have to pay to atone for a certain complexity of mind. And the loneliness side, I've got a sort of mixed opinion on which I've changed recently, but certainly there are taxes that you have to pay to atone for a complexity of mind. And one of them is that you cannot hide things from yourself in the fog so much anymore.

• 1:30:49Ryan Holiday?

  I think that's right. That, or, or the things you have to do to maintain the fog.

• 1:30:54Chris Williamson?

  Yes.

• 1:30:54Ryan Holiday?

  Become

• 1:30:55Chris Williamson?

  Increasingly elaborate.

• 1:30:57Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, and dangerous in and of themselves.

• 1:30:58Chris Williamson?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:59Ryan Holiday?

  So the kind of oblivion or obliviousness that is required to maintain the fictions is so intense that I think, you know, eventually you end up destroying yourself.

• 1:31:13Chris Williamson?

  What was Marcus Aurelius's solution to always keeping your word?

• 1:31:18Ryan Holiday?

  What do you mean?

• 1:31:19Chris Williamson?

  Well, he was someone who seemed to have a massive amount of transparency between what he did publicly, what he felt privately, and sort of what his intentions were, what he wrote, what he, the way that he behaved. How did the most powerful man in the like fucking known world avoid the temptation of not keeping his word?

• 1:31:41Ryan Holiday?

  Well, this is why the study of history is so important. So Marcus Aurelius is has these two role models in his life. And it's helpful to have this. He has the positive role model and the negative role model. So Marcus Aurelius is, he has this, he's kind of like the boy in The Emperor Has No Clothes as a young boy. He's in the court of the Emperor Hadrian and he's just like notoriously honest. He had like no filter and Hadrian actually nicknames him like the truest one. It's a play on Marcus's name, which in Latin meant true. And, and so he's just like this, the purity and the honesty of this little boy and Hadrian senses something in, in him in that.

• 1:32:23Ryan Holiday?

  But Hadrian was a degenerate, destructive, sort of everything that you think that being, having absolute power would do to a person, it does to Hadrian. He gets worse over time and, and towards the end where Marcus lives with him in this palace, this sort of pleasure palace, monument to his greatness, surrounded by sycophants and a secret police. He's haunted by the ghosts of the, the people that he killed. It's a terrible, sad, destructive end. But Hadrian does one good thing, which is he sees something in Marcus and he wants him to succeed him, but Marcus is too young. So he, uh, he chooses his successor, this man Antoninus, who becomes known to us as

• 1:33:08Ryan Holiday?

  Antoninus Pius. And why does he choose Antoninus? We're told that he watched secretly one day as Antoninus helped his elderly stepfather up a flight of stairs. This is moment of goodness, this powerful, influential politician, just helping out another human being because this is the guy. So he, he anoints Antoninus as his successor on the condition that Marcus has to be Antoninus's successor. So these three people who are not related set in motion this incredible transition of power. And Hadrian probably thought Marcus would, or that Antoninus would live for a few years. He lives for 20 years. So Marcus has this handful of years with Hadrian, the who you don't want to be,

• 1:33:52Ryan Holiday?

  how badly it can go. And then he has in Antoninus, everything you would want in a ruler, in a father, in a human being. And so he has these two models of what he wants to be. And like, I think there's this war in Marcus, this battle to which, whose vision of him is he going to fulfill? Right? Which, which one of these heroes is he going to follow?

• 1:34:17Chris Williamson?

  At least from what you've said there, it sounds like maybe Hadrian even had a degree of self-awareness about his own flaws. And he saw

• 1:34:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:34:27Chris Williamson?

  in his successor, the seeds of his successor's successor's success.

• 1:34:33Ryan Holiday?

  I think so. And, and maybe even saw how corrosive and destructive power was. And the idea that you shouldn't get it too early. Like what, why doesn't he just, like, why does he, why does he create this transition plan? Yeah. And, and so, so yeah, he sets in motion this plan. And, and you can see in the beginning of meditation, Marcus is riffing on Antoninus always. Just this, he's trying to live up, he's trying to live up to this model always. I think he's asking himself in many cases, what would Antoninus do here? So when he found himself, he has unlimited power. He can do whatever he wants.

• 1:35:13Ryan Holiday?

  But there is this check against him always, which is this sort of person he doesn't want to let down.

• 1:35:20Chris Williamson?

  It's like an ideal.

• 1:35:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, this, this person whose faith and belief he wants to live up to. And I think that this is a, is a, the formative influence on Marcus's life. And we, the stoics talk about, we have to have that in our life. Who is that person or who are those people whose standard we are trying to bear? And that can help us in these moments where, okay, if I make this decision, people are going to hate me, but it's the right decision. I'm going to make this decision. It's bad for me financially, but it's right for my community or for my employee. And when we have these sort of hard wrenching decisions.

• 1:36:03Ryan Holiday?

  What do we have that sort of swings us in the right direction out of just is this good for me? Can I get away with this? What will the reaction be? To me, that's that's such a critical part of being this person we want to be.

• 1:36:22Chris Williamson?

  You've read some stuff about John Boyd, right?

• 1:36:23Ryan Holiday?

  Uh huh.

• 1:36:24Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, he's got that quote about to be someone or to do something.

• 1:36:27Ryan Holiday?

  It's a be or to do is his famous speech that he would give to every ambitious, promising young officer, you know, like he's basically asking, what's your north star? Is your north star to have positive impact, to serve your country, to make people better? Or is your north star rank, power, influence, money, fame? And these things are in conflict with each other. And the sooner you make that choice, the better. And and a lot of us think we can defer making that choice, or we deny that it is a choice. And it's only when you come face to face with some really tough decisions, you realize you can't have both.

• 1:37:09Chris Williamson?

  What was that story of Marcus Druusus?

• 1:37:12Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, oh, the, oh, yes, yes, yes. So there's this, there's this famous Roman politician. He's powerful and important. He has friends and enemies. And this architect notices his house on Capitoline Hill that is partly visible to passersby. And he says, hey, you know, for about five talents, which is an extremely large amount of money, and he's basically saying for, I don't know, 500,000 or 5 million, I can make your house totally private. And he says, private, he's like, I'll give you 10 talents, make it entirely visible. And

• 1:37:52Ryan Holiday?

  he's not an exhibitionist. What he's saying is that he doesn't want the walls or curtains that Marx really said we should be wary of, the things that allow us to create a distinction between who we are in public and who we are in private, the things we think we can get away with when no one is looking. And

• 1:38:15Ryan Holiday?

  There's a reason transparency laws aren't just good for the consumer. They're good for the creators and the manufacturers too, because they allow them

• 1:38:29Ryan Holiday?

  to not get away with things.

• 1:38:30Chris Williamson?

  Yeah, that they may be tempted to do.

• 1:38:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:38:32Chris Williamson?

  Well, I mean, you know, would it be nice if we all were the captains of our own soul and never needed external accountability to do a thing and never needed the pressure of others? But we do, this is why accountability buddies and habit setting challenges are so useful. And I've found this with the show when I very first started it. Almost everybody is able to be unrigorous and inconsistent with the things that they say.

• 1:39:00Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:00Chris Williamson?

  Because like mum isn't talking to girlfriend, isn't talking to boss, isn't talking to football team captain about your view on anything. And you can kind of just sort of flip flop between it. And one of the things that I really loved, I have a prescription that everyone should do a fake podcast with a friend once a week, records for 30 minutes on their phone about an idea. And the reason that I think it's useful is it causes you to be very rigorous with the things that you say.

• 1:39:27Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:27Chris Williamson?

  It's good for communication, it's good for other stuff. It's like, hey, I actually need to make sure that what I said last week and what I said this week and I'm going to say next week is in line. That doesn't mean that your opinions can't change, but if they do change, you have an anchor that tells you, oh, I don't think that thing anymore. And why? As opposed to just allowing yourself to be blown around or to say whatever is convenient to the person that's in front of you.

• 1:39:48Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, and to have articulated, hey, I think it's fucked up when people do X. And now I'm, now later you find yourself in a position to do X, which you didn't have the temptation or the opportunity to do before. And now you've gone on the record, so to speak. And it's a little more real. And I think that's important. There's something about philosophy as something you talk about and do and write about yourself and publish and whatever that I think should keep you, keeps you honest and makes you better in a way that just reading a book or thinking about a thing doesn't, doesn't quite do. So yeah, there's obviously as a creator, you always want to be worried about hypocrisy, but also like

• 1:40:30Ryan Holiday?

  you should be falling short of what you're saying because you should be creating an aspiration or ideal that that is hard to live up to.

• 1:40:39Chris Williamson?

  What was Harry Truman's perspective on honor and ethics?

• 1:40:43Ryan Holiday?

  Harry Truman's was one of the most incredible presidents in American history because basically you have a regular guy, just suddenly the most powerful person in the world. And a guy who had struggled, one of the last presidents to ever go to college. But he had kind of a very clear moral code, which actually he literally derives from Marcus Aurelius, the, the sort of four stoic virtues. There's a copy of his meditate, of his, there's his copy of meditations is there with his underlines of like these things. So you have this guy that studied these people historically as this fan of history and, and and then he finds himself there, suddenly like the most powerful person in the world, the sole

• 1:41:27Ryan Holiday?

  possessor of nuclear weapons, the only non ravaged nation after the second world war. And now he has to put in practice all these ideals, all these things that he talked about. But it was, it's, it's this remarkable story because with Truman, he literally comes up in one of the most corrupt political machines in American history. The Kansas City mob basically is, controls democratic politics there. And he sort of gets, he runs for office. They think maybe he'll be someone they can do business with. And he's so like unflinchingly honest and good. They're like, we gotta get this guy out of here.

• 1:42:06Ryan Holiday?

  But he's so popular, they, they make him senator because, because like it's, it's more convenient to have him far away than

• 1:42:13Chris Williamson?

  Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:15Ryan Holiday?

  And then he becomes the senator and, uh, you know, basically.

• 1:42:22Ryan Holiday?

  Doesn't have the same political ambitions as all the other senators, so he gets made vice president and, and, and then suddenly finds himself president. And it's this like remarkable trajectory where you had this fundamentally decent human being. Um, one of, uh, there's this amazing quote, uh, they asked a bunch of people who grew up with Harry Truman, like, were you, when he became president, were you like nervous? Like, and he was, and they asked this guy who was the, the foreman on a railroad that Truman had worked on as a boy. And he said, I wasn't worried. He's like, that kid is all right from every direction, from his asshole on out. So you just get this kind of blue collar work ethic of just like

• 1:43:03Ryan Holiday?

  a fundamentally decent human being that supposedly isn't, doesn't work in politics, right? It like, it, it doesn't, but it does. He, it gets in there and, and then he has to make some of the most consequential decisions of the 20th century that are, by the way, extremely unpopular at the time. Every single one of them is unpopular. He leaves the presidency as close to the least popular president of all time and now is regularly ranked as one of the greatest presidents of all time. Cause that's what doing hard right things tends, that's how it tends to go. It's that they age well.

• 1:43:42Chris Williamson?

  We spoke about sort of transparency between you out to the public, this sort of scrutiny, the skepticism that, that can be useful as being a controlling mechanism. But much of the things that we do are just in private. It's whether or not you do throw litter on the ground. It's whether or not you say this thing, stand up for whatever, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do we know if we're doing the right thing?

• 1:44:02Ryan Holiday?

  My favorite story in the book is this story about, there's this poet, Dan, Danielle De Prima. And she's this aspiring female poet. She's at this party in San Francisco or Los Angeles. It's all, all the New York, all the beats are there. You know, Ginsberg is there, Kerouac is there, all the, it's, it's where you want to be. The coolest movement, coolest artists all in one place. And, uh, you know, the party's just getting going and she gets up to leave like nine o'clock. They go, where are you going? You know, nobody leaves a party like this. And she says, um, I've got to go relieve my babysitter. She had a young kid. And Kerouac looks at her and goes, if you don't forget about that fucking babysitter, you are dead as an artist. And

• 1:44:47Ryan Holiday?

  You could imagine a person without a lot of confidence or without a moral compass. This is where you are inducted into the pantheon of talented artists who are shitty people. You know, like here's a much more successful, powerful person telling you that success is built on selfishness and partying and hanging out and, you know, the scene. And she has the grit. She looks at him and she goes, if I don't go relieve the babysitter, I'm dead as an artist. And she walks out. And what she would say later is that she knew that she had given someone her word that she would be back by a certain time.

• 1:45:32Ryan Holiday?

  Right? Like that the babysitter, hey, I'll be back by eight. But she also knew she gave her kid her word when she had her, right? That, that, that, hey, I'm going to put you first, or I'm going to take care of you. I'm not going to abandon you. And so to her, the, the, the breaking of the word and the breaking of the discipline are the same thing. So that the same, the same commitment, when you say, hey, I'm going to get up at nine AM tomorrow and write. Or, hey, I'm going to finish this by this date because I signed a contract with the poet. These are all the same commitments, right?

• 1:46:09Ryan Holiday?

  And so I just, I love that story because, you know, again, we think of justice as this highfalutin, fancy, abstract notion. And it can be, you know, all men are created equal and, you know, saving the less fortunate. But it's also just like who we are in these day to day decisions. And the, and, and when we make these, when we do the harder thing, when we do the thing that's

• 1:46:37Ryan Holiday?

  better for someone else, but worse for us, you know, that's usually a sense we're kind of on that right track. When we're not acting in our own naked self-interest, but we're, we're considering what the Stoics would call the common good or something bigger than ourselves. That, that to me is, is like a check against that. But I just, I think like, is, is, what's the easier thing here? You know, the easier thing is usually the wrong thing and the harder thing is usually the right thing. They say it's not a principle unless it costs you money, you know? And asking yourself, hey, am I acting out of expediency here or am I acting out of principle? These are the kind of of decisions that the virtue of justice to me is all about not,

• 1:47:22Ryan Holiday?

  you know, should we provide weapons to Ukraine or not? You know, what, what, what, what, you know, should we pass this law? What's, what's the best political solution to this problem? Again, all of this is extremely important and, and part of the virtue of justice, but it starts with these sort of fundamental decisions that we make as individuals over the things that we have the most control over.

• 1:47:44Chris Williamson?

  Isn't it interesting that there's this odd tension between what feels like the right thing to do? Yeah. How much is my subconscious going to torture me this evening when I try to go to sleep, having done or not done this thing? So there's this degree of instinct and, and releasing and sort of just allowing for this to come up. And then there's also the temptation for that, for some of your instincts to do the exact opposite thing. So there's this, I need to sort of engage the front brain and then turn it off?

• 1:48:16Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's like, it's the same with like thinking faster slower. We have like, we have these massive, incredible cognitive tools. And then we also have these embarrassing, preposterous cognitive biases. They find like even baby, they've done studies of babies. There's this psychologist, Paul Bloom, like even babies, he has a, wrote this book called Just Babies, like justice babies, like that even in infants, they can do tests that like indicate fairness or unfairness, or, uh, you know, basic sort of illustrations of moral principles that in a way that a baby, a child would understand. And that babies instinctively

• 1:48:57Ryan Holiday?

  know these things, that these, these notions of right and wrong, fairness and unfairness are, are there in, in some cases at our absolute earliest days.

• 1:49:06Chris Williamson?

  I'm pretty sure that there's a study that was done on giving cucumber slices to monkeys as well. And if they see that one monkey in a different cage is given three and I only got one, then they, they get angry about it.

• 1:49:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. Christians call us like the hunger and the thirst for righteousness. Like there's our inherent sort of moral capacity. It's there.

• 1:49:25Chris Williamson?

  Programmed into us.

• 1:49:26Ryan Holiday?

  And then we have these things on top of it. Right? We have. We have the incentives of the market. We have the ideas of our culture. We have the example that we saw with our parents. And then we just have the, the positive and negative reinforcement of like, if I do this, it'll be easy. And if I do this, it'll be hard. And so we have to have this ability to sort of intuitively trust that instinct and then also have the ability to step back and question and go, hey, is this who I want to be? You know, like, you know, you think about something like the practice of nonviolence, the incredible discipline required to not do

• 1:50:09Ryan Holiday?

  the most human thing. There's this famous story of Martin Luther King. He's onstage. Obviously, he's preached about nonviolence. He's talked about nonviolence. He's giving, he's giving this talk and a neo-Nazi storms the stage and, and just begins like beating the shit out of him. And so here he is. He's talked about it. He's being watched by all these people and he has this choice. And it's not even a choice, right? Because it's wired into us to defend ourselves and then to eliminate the threat between us. I mean, this is like the most monkey part of us. And one of the observers who watched this, they talked about first the sickening sound of flesh

• 1:50:52Ryan Holiday?

  on, like you're watching this man be beaten. And, and, and instinctively, his hands go up. And then they said, they would never forget it the rest of their life, the, the deliberate dropping of the hands, that he exposed himself to it. And so that is in, I'm just getting goosebumps thinking about that would, that is, whatever training goes into being a great fighter, that's a level of training above that thing at a, at a transcendent like spiritual level. It's, it's also crazy, but the, the, the point is, he's saying like, uh, I'm going to prove this to you. I'm going to show you that this is how it works. And then the first words out

• 1:51:35Ryan Holiday?

  of his mouth when, when he's, the, the neo-Nazi is ultimately grabbed, is, is he goes, don't hurt him, don't hurt him. And he goes backstage and he talks to, and so. This was the culmination of years of study and practice. And this is something we don't give the suffragettes enough credit for, the civil rights protesters enough. They trained themselves, like they would train, like the, the sit-in protesters who would sit in the segregated lunch counters, they knew that the people, the first round, they would be ignored. And then suddenly people would start coming up and getting in their face. And then people would spit on them and then people would kick them and then people would knock them off the chairs. Their job was to not respond, was to just sit there. And then, then they, someone would go to the ground.

• 1:52:20Ryan Holiday?

  And the next thing was that they all had to jump on top, like the, they would practice how you would defend.

• 1:52:27Chris Williamson?

  Like a human igloo.

• 1:52:28Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, how you would defend without using violence, someone from violence. And this practice, as it, as it's like, you know, again, it's this transcendent level of discipline and spiritual pureness. But also, there's also this kind of Machiavellian political genius behind it because they also know it's being.

• 1:52:51Chris Williamson?

  It's not toothless.

• 1:52:52Ryan Holiday?

  And watched and that, that the person who wins the bout of violence ultimately loses in the realm of public opinion and probably leaves sickened, you know, like you can't senselessly beat a person for sitting at a lunch counter without it having some effect on your soul.

• 1:53:16Chris Williamson?

  And also the difference in how that's interpreted, if that person fights back, it seems like a much fairer fight.

• 1:53:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:53:22Chris Williamson?

  As opposed to it being this completely disgusting, one-sided aberration.

• 1:53:26Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. And, and so I'm just, I'm fascinated by that. And I think what we take from that is not, hopefully that's not anything that anyone here ever needs to do. But what you take from that is the idea, it's, it's, it's not simply that they were right. You know, it's not simply that they were morally correct, but the.

• 1:53:48Ryan Holiday?

  Ability to understand and master the self in pursuit of the thing is what changes the world. And it changed a thing that at the beginning of the civil rights movement, or at the beginning of Gandhi's campaign, not just, again, not just his campaigns in India, but first his campaigns in South Africa, if you had asked someone, was changing this possible? Was this outcome, flash forward 10, 20 years, was the outcome? Is that possible? It was obviously impossible. Fundamentally, you fundamentally transformed society. And that, that comes from that.

• 1:54:28Chris Williamson?

  The afterward of the book.

• 1:54:31Ryan Holiday?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:54:31Chris Williamson?

  You talk about the adoption of Stoicism by young men.

• 1:54:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:36Chris Williamson?

  Who are struggling with meaning and, and direction and purpose and stuff like that in life. Given that you are the best known popularizer of Stoicism at the moment, what do you make of that sort of absorption and the good and bad elements?

• 1:54:54Ryan Holiday?

  I have a little note card next to my desk that I look at every single day because I, I am in this incredibly strange position of being associated with and credited as a kind of a representative of a thing I did not invent. And that is what I am working on being, not what I am, but what I'm working on being. It's the thing that changed my life. I just happened to have communicated about it and brought my same journey to other people. So I have this weird relationship with it in that I feel, well, I feel very graced by it, but I also feel, I don't feel like it's mine because it isn't. And so I

• 1:55:35Ryan Holiday?

  feel like I have a responsibility. And so I have this little note card and the note card says, are you being a good steward of Stoicism? And I try to judge my decisions based on that metric. So, you know, what the audience wants and what is most palatable and what is most algorithmically friendly, and then what is true and what is important, and then what is most in line with what the Stoics actually said, these are not always the same thing. And I don't know if you see this with your audience, but there is a, a strand of sort of nihilistic, angry.

• 1:56:17Ryan Holiday?

  Disenfranchised sort of group of mostly young men, but I guess it's on both. It's probably genderless at some level also where, and it is an incredibly powerful, if not lucrative vein or that you could tap into or wave you wanna surf.

• 1:56:39Ryan Holiday?

  And I can, I sense that energy and I see people, you know, we talked about to be or to do. I see people going, hey, is that, is that what I, is that, and, and, and I'm very sensitive to that. And I'm very, um, I'm very, uh, not interested in, in becoming subservient to that. Like I, I understand the frustration and the grievance. I get, I get it. Um, and I, I get that there are problems in our society, but I, but to me stoicism is a, is a philosophy of self, of taking responsibility for the self, but then acting like fucking adult,

• 1:57:19Ryan Holiday?

  like, uh, who, who, uh, tries to make the world better as opposed to wanting to see it burn. Do you know what I mean?

• 1:57:26Chris Williamson?

  Yeah. I mean, this culture of cynicism is something that I've railed against an awful lot. It's one of the reasons that I was so happy moving to the US. There is a, a big, tall, poppy culture in the UK. It is a cynical crabs in a bucket style mentality. Uh, population density is way higher, weather's way shitter, we're surrounded by water. Uh, we've got this sort of weird heritage, which means that all of the ossified social classes are in there. There's a lot of things. I think about this a lot about why it's changed. And I came out to America and it's like, everybody here has got permanent first line cocaine energy. Like everyone's so fucking enthusiastic about what's going on. Sure, that can be parodied and annoying at times. Um, but for me, I seem to flourish around that and I want to make enthusiasm great again.

• 1:58:11Ryan Holiday?

  I like, I think, to me enthusiasm is one thing. I'm a big believer in earnestness instead. Earnestness has a kind of a sincerity and a, and a

• 1:58:22Chris Williamson?

  It's a realism as well.

• 1:58:23Ryan Holiday?

  A realism and a, and a kindness to it and a, and openness and an honesty to it that I love. But you know, the, the, they call it sort of broicism. And there is a version of, of talking about and writing about and reading about stoicism in which you only focus on what it does for you. Right? And I think early in my life and my career, so I relate to it. I'm not, you know, I'm not judging anyone. Um, it, oh, Stoicism helps me wake up earlier, it helps me do hard things, it helps me manage my emotions. This is all great stuff, but it's not, it's not the full, the virtues are much more inclusive than that. And they ask more of you than that. They

• 1:59:07Ryan Holiday?

  offer, but they also ask, you know? And, and what they ask is that you care about other people.

• 1:59:14Chris Williamson?

  After you've mastered yourself with this philosophy, how can you use that mastery to help other people?

• 1:59:19Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, in, in the ancient world, the Epicureans retreated to the garden, not for pleasure, but for their own self-improvement and development, because the world is messy, because people are shitty, uh, because things are broken. And Stoicism said, that's all well and good, the, the self-improvement, self-mastery stuff. But if you abdicate your responsibility, who steps in, in your place? Usually a worse person.

• 1:59:45Chris Williamson?

  Shitty people.

• 1:59:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And, and, and, and they say, who's supposed to run things? You know, who's supposed to be involved? Who takes the responsibility upon themselves? And so I think Stoicism is a philosophy that gets involved, that gets engaged, that tries to make a positive difference. Again, not always by becoming a senator or something, but by how you choose to run your business, how you choose to run your life, how you choose to show up and do things for your family, for your community, for your neighbor who's struggling. Um, to me, that's the Stoicism that I'm interested in, not the sort of like manipulated, you know, uh, toxic Stoicism of your like sort of Andrew, like the idea that Andrew Tate would be a,

• 2:00:29Ryan Holiday?

  a hero to someone is so laughably, uh, preposterous to me. When you actually see who that person is and what they do, um, to say nothing of the sort of marketing techniques of it, like, I, I just, that's not what the philosophy is about.

• 2:00:49Chris Williamson?

  Well, I think Stoicism kind of has a,

• 2:00:54Chris Williamson?

  Certain areas that lend itself to the sigma male, like lone wolf grindset mode type thing, which is this kind of denial of emotional vulnerability, this massive amount of self-reliance, this sort of odd self-righteous sense of nobility about doing hard things and about leaning in. But that is only one quite parodied element of a much broader philosophy.

• 2:01:21Ryan Holiday?

  The philosophy is not there to make you a better sociopath. Stoicism is not a philosophy to help you suppress the pesky emotions that come up when you're running an international webcam ring of exploited women, right? Like, it's not to, it's not to help you not have to feel human emotions because you're exploiting or manipulating people, right? Like, and, and that's obviously an extreme case, but the decision of like, you know, hey, I know this thing doesn't work, but people like to hear about it. Or I know

• 2:02:03Ryan Holiday?

  this guest would be popular, but they're full of shit. Or, hey, I know, I think we both see this a lot where it's like, this person is obviously unwell, but they make good copy. So I'm going to bring, so, so just the, these decisions about, these are hard decisions. These are hard choices. These are, it's not that there's no right or wrong, but what I'm saying is that they're complicated. Stoicism is not, cuts through the Gordian knot, don't have to think about it.

• 2:02:32Chris Williamson?

  You never have to worry, just optimize for whatever.

• 2:02:34Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah. And, and by the way, all the stuff in Stoicism is just don't care about what other people think, ignore the critics, whatever. It's not to shield you from the

• 2:02:44Ryan Holiday?

  The the criticism that you're getting for doing awful things, right? Like, that's not so there there's this way you can pick and choose from Stoicism to enable you to do things that are not good, that are not right. And so that I I just, I I talked a lot, I I just focused the afterward. I tried to put my own journey, and again, I relate to it. Like, in my twenties, there were people I worked for that I shouldn't have worked for. There were things I took on that why, in retrospect, why did I take them on? And I tried to do a lot of work on myself about understanding what those motivations were, understanding what those, uh, the impact was, trying to atone for those things. But try trying to set your your life up so

• 2:03:25Ryan Holiday?

  when people see it, you don't have much to be ashamed of, is, again, what this idea of virtue is about. There's a famous story about a Spartan king, he bumps into this, uh, this boy and his lover, you know, in the marketplace and and he see they see him and he sees them and they're they're they they blush very heavily and he goes, um, you should probably not spend time with people whose face changes color when you're who makes your face change color when you're seen, right? The idea of like, hey, if I had to open the books, if I had to disclose the suppliers, if my email was hacked, how would that look?

• 2:04:08Ryan Holiday?

  And to try to be that person, which goes all the way back to Adam Smith. Adam Smith wrote this book called The Theory of Moral Sentiments before he wrote A Wealth of Nations, and it's based largely on Stoicism. And he said, operate as if you had an impartial spectator on your shoulders at all times. And to make the decisions and go, hey, what would I, what would I do here if I had, if someone was watching, uh, is is a is a check against the sort of the expedient or the self-interested impulse that we all have.

• 2:04:39Chris Williamson?

  Hell yeah. Ryan Holiday, ladies and gentlemen. Ryan, it's, it's really fun. I very much appreciate when I read your stuff, I try and tap into a much more virtuous, higher version of myself. So thank you for constraining the sort of ex fuckboy that I used to be. Where should people go? They want to keep up to date with all of the things that you're doing.

• 2:04:58Ryan Holiday?

  Dailystoic.com, Daily Stoic on pretty much all platforms. And then if you're a parent, you want to apply some of this wisdom stuff to, to your family life, Daily Dad, same on all the platforms. And then the new book is Right Thing Right Now. But any of the books in the series, hopefully it'll get you going.

• 2:05:16Chris Williamson?

  Hell yeah. Ryan, I appreciate you.

• 2:05:17Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks, man.

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