Re-Air - Cheyenne Jackson: Depression, Identity, & Broadway

Let's revisit one of our most popular and beloved episodes of MBB to keep you inspired as we head into the New Year! Cheyenne Jackson (CALL ME KAT, 30 ROCK, AMERICAN HORROR STORY) opens up about his incredible journey from a closeted, musical-loving kid in a tiny town in Idaho to becoming a Broadway star and starring in hit shows (like Mayim’s love interest on CALL ME KAT!). Cheyenne reflects on how his path to sobriety and some profound revelations helped him navigate the challenges of depression, anxiety, and addiction. This episode has it all—a story of resilience, self-discovery, and healing perfect for a reflective moment as we wrap up the year. Happy holidays from all of us at MBB! BialikBreakdown.com https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ YouTube.com/mayimbialik https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTOocPnDh2YQZZwh86K2OxA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mayim Bialik?

  Hey everyone, it's Mayim. Welcome to My Breakdown, the place where we break things down so you don't have to. New Year's is tomorrow, and I hope everyone's having a great holiday season thus far. And also, in case you're feeling maybe a little bit overwhelmed, or anxious, or maybe excited about what 2025 will hold, we want to share this early episode of MyBialx Breakdown, which was one of the first episodes where Jonathan and I realized we were on to something special with this podcast that we hadn't originally intended. Basically, we found out if you ask the right questions and provide the right conditions, people will open up and share about what it is ultimately to be human with

• 0:44Mayim Bialik?

  others who are on a similar journey. You may know a lot about a person, you may know awards that people have won, success that they've had, you may know facts and figures about them, you might know a lot about someone's evolution as a person, you might admire someone, maybe you're even envious of their looks, their fame, the ease with which they seem to navigate the world. But we really don't know people until we look under the hood, as it were. And when we talked to Cheyenne Jackson, he revealed so many things about his story, his upbringing, his journey from growing up in a religious cult of sorts to being a liberated and proud gay man who has starred in dozens of Broadway musicals,

• 1:27Mayim Bialik?

  multiple award nominee, award winner. He forged a path through depression and through darkness that many of us never get to hear someone discuss the way Cheyenne discusses it. That's why as we near the end of 2024, we're bringing you this very special interview with the immensely talented, deeply introspective, and unbelievably honest Cheyenne Jackson. Enjoy.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  There is a certain group of people who think that gay people should only play gay people. I play Hades, lord of the underworld, on the Disney Channel. I'm not really a lord of the underworld who steals souls, but I can pretend I am. I've had to learn that everybody's scared. Everybody's scared.

• 2:08Mayim Bialik?

  OK, but some more than others.

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Some more than others, but...

• 2:10Mayim Bialik?

  This is like, wait till you go to a press event with me. You will see some more than others.

• 2:17Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik, and welcome to My Breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so that you don't have to.

• 2:23Speaker 02

  It's Mayim Bialik's Breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's gonna break down, so break down. She's gonna break it down.

• 2:37Mayim Bialik?

  Today, I'm very excited about today. Today, we're gonna break down another human. Sometimes we do that. We just break down the whole human. We're gonna break down Cheyenne Jackson, who is my work husband. He plays my love interest on Call Me Cat, the show that I am working on. But he's like a really, he's like a very famous person. He's been in, I think, seven Broadway shows. For those of you who don't know, being in one Broadway show is an unbelievable feat. He also started quite late in the industry, 27. I mean, that's like, well, that's the age when many, many famous people OD. That's what that number is. But he started at 27 and like has an unbelievable story.

• 3:22Mayim Bialik?

  He goes from like growing up, for part of his childhood, without electricity, in a born-again Christian commune, essentially. Knew he was gay from a very young age and got out of the 1,200-person town that he grew up in. Finally got to go to public school and just has had an amazing, amazing journey. And he talks about his sobriety. He talks about some aspects of his mental health struggles, which he said he's never spoken about before. It's really a lovely, I'm, I forgot to introduce my co-pilot. If they were to give a Stanley Cup for awesomeness, this is the Canadian who'd get it. It's Jonathan Cohen.

• 4:02Jonathan Cohen?

  Hello, Mayim.

• 4:04Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, why don't we do some housekeeping?

• 4:06Jonathan Cohen?

  Let's do it. Oh, that's on me. That's right.

• 4:11Mayim Bialik?

  I was enthusiastic.

• 4:13Jonathan Cohen?

  If you're listening to the audio version of this podcast, subscribe, give us a five star review because it helps us make more and it helps us help other people. And that's what really we're here to do. And if you are listening to the audio version, check out the video.

• 4:27Mayim Bialik?

  You're gonna listen back to this and be like, why do I sound like I'm making announcements at a funeral?

• 4:32Jonathan Cohen?

  I imagine that I'm actually a game show host.

• 4:35Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 4:36Jonathan Cohen?

  No?

• 4:37Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, for a very, very morose game show.

• 4:40Jonathan Cohen?

  This is-

• 4:41Mayim Bialik?

  In Canada.

• 4:42Jonathan Cohen?

  This is 300% excitement in Canadian.

• 4:45Mayim Bialik?

  That's also true.

• 4:48Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, do we have a website?

• 4:49Jonathan Cohen?

  We have a website. You'll be able to find articles and related accoutrements there.

• 4:55Mayim Bialik?

  That's a French word because he's Canadian.

• 4:57Jonathan Cohen?

  It's the only French I know. Bialikbreakdown.com. B I A.

• 5:01Mayim Bialik?

  L I K breakdown.com.

• 5:05Jonathan Cohen?

  Word of the day. We have two words of the day that I'm gonna let you choose which one you want to answer. The first word is recovery.

• 5:13Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 5:15Jonathan Cohen?

  Related to the episode. The second word is empath.

• 5:19Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, let's do recovery because it does relate to this episode. And I think that recovery obviously has a, you know, a basic definition, like to recover from something. Like you have a sickness and you recover from it. You get over it. But when we talk about kind of recovery with a capital R, what we're talking about is usually recovery from substance abuse, from alcohol abuse, typically from ingesting something.

• 5:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Eating disorder recovery?

• 5:45Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, it can be, meaning, yeah, something that's involved with an inability to regulate, you know, whether it's alcohol or food or, or drugs. And so we talk about being in recovery as living a life typically of sobriety, not dryness. There's a difference between being sober and being dry. People who are, people tend to use these words in 12-step programs. If you're sober, you're working a program, which means you're attending meetings typically have a sponsor. People who are dry simply refrain from ingesting, but don't necessarily work a program of recovery. Recovery. So that's sort of the uppercase recovery definition.

• 6:22Jonathan Cohen?

  And people can be on a path of recovery.

• 6:25Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, people talk about being on a path of recovery.

• 6:28Jonathan Cohen?

  People talk about what the recovery includes. And that's not to say that there's an end destination. That's what I think is interesting. Like recovering from my foot injury is, I can walk now and I'm better.

• 6:38Mayim Bialik?

  Right, there's a beginning, middle and end. But for recovery, when people talk about 12-step recovery or recovery from addiction, it's typically a lifelong commitment to admit that you... Well, the way that people in Alcoholics Anonymous tend to say it is that you'd like to believe you can drink like normal people, but you can't. Or you'd like to believe that you can use like other people, you know, like, oh, have a little of this on the weekend. Yeah, usually people who are in recovery have committed to the fact that they will not be engaging in that kind of dance anymore. And that's their path of recovery.

• 7:11Jonathan Cohen?

  And that's the word of the day.

• 7:12Mayim Bialik?

  Nothing we say is going to be as interesting as Cheyenne Jackson. So let's bring on Cheyenne Jackson. I adore this man. I really do. I got to kiss him at work, which is weird. I'm just gonna... meaning like it's weird to kiss someone you're not dating, I think. But I'm also conservative that way. Plenty of people kiss people they're not dating all the time. They call it dating. Just kidding. Before we bring on Cheyenne, I'm going to read a little bit about him for those of you who may not know. Cheyenne is a Grammy nominated actor, singer and songwriter. That's impressive. It's impressive. He was most recently seen starring in HBO Max's four-part LGBTQ+ docu-series Equal. He was in Saved by the Bell. He actually posted that on Instagram, I think, today.

• 7:52Jonathan Cohen?

  The reboot, not the original.

• 7:53Mayim Bialik?

  And Kenny Ortega's Netflix series, Julie and the Phantoms. He's also collaborated with Kenny Ortega, actually who I've worked with. We should... I should talk to him about that. He was in Descendants 3, so many things. American Horror Story. I didn't even realize that he was in multiple seasons of American Horror Story. He's been on Watchmen, worked with Lisa Silverstone. He was on 30 Rock. He's been on Glee.

• 8:18Jonathan Cohen?

  Curb.

• 8:20Mayim Bialik?

  He's been on so many things. Law and Order. Oh, I also didn't know this. He was in the 2006 Academy Award nominated United 93, which I saw. I have to revisit it now. Behind the candelabra, that's the Liberace one. Amazing things. Really, really amazing. Um, he's also gonna be in a, an upcoming feature Werewolves Within. On and off Broadway, he has starred in The Performers, The Most Happy Fella, Eight, Finian's Rainbow, which my father was in. I have pictures of my father in Finian's Rainbow when my dad was like 13 years old, for which he received a Drama Desk nomination. He's been in Damn Yankees, also got nominations for Xanadu, The Agony and the Agony, All Shook Up. That's the one where he played Elvis and was in the premier cast of Alter Boys, Aida, Thoroughly Modern Millie,

• 9:04Mayim Bialik?

  On the 20th Century and The 24 Hour Plays. I'm intimidated by him just based on his bio. But we're gonna talk to him anyway. Let's welcome Cheyenne Jackson. Break it down. So exciting. This is Cheyenne Jackson. Hi.

• 9:19Mayim Bialik?

  Uh, thank you so much for, for talking with me. I think that you're the person I've spent the most time with, really, in the last month, for sure. Not only are we working together, but we're working together in a way that like, we don't really hang out with a lot of other people besides whoever lives in our home and then each other. So I think the other day we had a scene where we all got to hug and it was like we all held the hug a little too long. Cause it's so bizarre to get to be with each other as much as we do get to when we're not really hanging out with other people. So, um, thank you for letting us do a, a case study, as I call it, of all things Cheyenne.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 9:58Mayim Bialik?

  Like, give us-

• 9:59Jonathan Cohen?

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• 10:02Mayim Bialik?

  Have you noticed that most wireless bras just completely miss the mark? I've tried many and they either stretch as you wear them, the band rolls up, the straps are always slipping, but-

• 10:15Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:00Mayim Bialik?

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• 11:13Jonathan Cohen?

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• 11:18Mayim Bialik?

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• 12:00Mayim Bialik?

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• 12:44Mayim Bialik?

  me on track. Starting my day with this easy, health-focused task reminds me to continue to make healthy choices the rest of the day. For a limited time, visit drinkag1.com/breakdown and get a free immune support bundle, including omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 with your first subscription of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. That's drinkag1.com/breakdown. And after checkout, be sure to let them know that Myobiolex Breakdown sent you. A little thumbnail sketch. Who was young Cheyenne? What were you like as you were growing up also?

• 13:17Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh, where to start? I'm gonna start at the beginning. I'm gonna start at where it all began. I'm from a teeny little town, a mill town in northern Idaho called Old Town Idaho. It's right on the border of Washington and Idaho. The Ponderay River runs through the two states. And

• 13:34Mayim Bialik?

  How tiny's tiny?

• 13:36Speaker 01

  1,200 people.

• 13:37Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, that's like you know, everyone pretty much.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  You know, everyone. There's one blinking red light. I think they got a McDonald's a few years back, I heard. I'm sure it's wonderful for everyone. Very, very close to the Aryan Nation compound in right outside of Coeur d'Alene. So it was a very white, very Christian, very Republican town. My parents were hippies and then became born-again Christians. So it was a very strange pendulum swing, but they kind of straddled both worlds. And we lived on 20 acres in the woods with no running water. And I had an outhouse. We had two goats named Harmony and Melody.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  That because I because cow's milk I couldn't process, probably still can't, but that's another conversation. And it was a really beautiful bucolic way of life. And I have an older brother and a little sister and an older half brother that didn't live with us. So it was really just the five of us, the Jackson Five, that lived on this little land. And what was little Cheyenne like? Well, I think from the time I was seven, I knew that I was other. I knew that I was different in this little town. I it was a football town and that couldn't be further from what I who I am and what I was about.

• 15:05Speaker 01

  I loved going to yard sales and I loved going to looking through other people's treasures. And I came upon a tape one day. It said Billy, Ella, Lena and Sarah. Billy Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne, Sarah Vaughan. I'd never heard of any of them and my little brain exploded. It was a cassette tape. And I started listening to jazz music and I started listening to. My parents are very musical. I'll be jumping around because that's how my brain works these days. My mom was very musical, self taught, beautiful singing voice, plays a little guitar. My dad completely tone deaf, but loves all kinds of music. So there was always music playing in the house. That's one of my biggest memories.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And I it was early on, I was kind of pegged at at our church for having a good singing voice. And so I thought, oh, I think that'll be my thing. I was always a very self conscious kid. I was really tall, taller than everybody.

• 16:02Mayim Bialik?

  Were you tall and thin? Like, were you a lanky, tall, lanky kid?

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was always ahead above everybody else, but I was always very gentle. And so then people, somebody called me the gentle giant once and I'm like, I don't like that. And so I just always had this feeling of standing out, but maybe not for the best reasons. I just always kind of had anxiety about being in big groups of people, but when I would sing, kind of went away. So that would that would manifest later in life in other ways, but. Cut to, I, I would say about twelve or so, I'm pretty sure I'm gay. Our French teacher, Mrs. Henry, she came into class one day and she said, you guys, there's this show called Les Misérables,

• 16:49Speaker 01

  French teacher, and you're all going, it's in Spokane, Washington. I didn't know what it was. I'd never heard of Broadway or Les Mis or anything, but I just, I was super excited because we had to sign parent teacher consent form because there were prostitutes in the show. And we were like, yes. And um, I remember sitting in the audience at thirteen in Spokane, Washington, where I was born, by the way. Um, it's about a forty-five mile drive from where we, where I was raised. And it started and, you know, the ah, ah, ah, I just thought, I had, just remember goosebumps over my body. And I saw these people up there and I thought, wait, what? That can be a job? That you could do that for a living?

• 17:33Speaker 01

  That is what I want to do. I don't know how that's gonna happen. But it was, it was, it was as if something went off inside me and I thought, oh, that's gonna be my ticket out of this town. So that's how that all began and there's a million things in between, but.

• 17:49Mayim Bialik?

  Such an amazing, I mean, it's an amazing story already. How, how did you get out? Did you get, I mean, you, you went, you were there through high school? Did you have running water at any point?

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we, my mom, my mom hates when I say that. She's like, we only didn't really have running water for four years. That's still a long time.

• 18:07Mayim Bialik?

  With three kids, yeah, that's.

• 18:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, we lived off the land. We had chickens and we had goats and we, you know, we grew potatoes and uh, it was really wonderful and I remember a lot of really wonderful things about it, but as I started to feel so different and so other, I, I just knew that I needed to get out of this town. There was nobody, nobody queer. There was, there was one family of color. It, it was just, it wasn't where I needed to be and I knew I wanted to get out. So I went to a private Christian school called House of the Lord Christian Academy. Yeah, and um, it was very, it was a church slash school, so church and Jesus and it was all wrapped up in school and all in the same building.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  One big building in the middle of this huge trailer park. I'm sorry, I'm gonna say it, but it's true. There was just trails all around in our church. School, my whole life was there. I went to that till eighth grade. When I was in eighth grade, I had, there was only one other kid in my class. And it was all independent study in the school. So you were sitting in cubicles. And we had. A blue flag. A little, a little flag to raise and, and put in a little hole if we wanted a boy teacher to help us. And a little red flag if, to put in a little hole if you wanted a girl teacher to help us. The girl teachers were called monitors and the boy teachers were called supervisors. It's a whole thing. And my, at eighth grade, I just thought, I can't be in this little, I'm not.

• 19:33Speaker 01

  I, I, I was doing all of it. You only were supposed to do four pages in each subject a day and I would be done by ten thirty in the morning. And if you were on good privilege, which they would put like a little placard up, you're on, if you're on E privilege, it was this little red E they would put in your cubicle. That means you could go to the E privilege room. Which was like a hangout room. So we would just sit there and play foosball and, I don't know, and, and just sit around all day. It was just not, I wasn't learning a lot and also, my brother, my older brother Chris, who is now a pastor in here in California. Had shown a really, a real uh, talent in sports. He's a great runner and he went to public school. And really excelled. And you know, there was seventy-five kids in the class rather than two.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  So my parents let me go to public school in eighth grade. And then I started singing in the choir. I also got on the track team and had a, I was good at sports as well. And started to find a little. Niche for myself. Jesus and church and mission trips. All of that was really my, my fifteen, sixteen and seventeen year. In high school, uh, that, when I was that age, it took up most of my time. I went. On three different mission trips to Mexico and would help dig ditches and, and help in orphanages and. Go door to door, passing out bibles and. It was something that was really hard for me because deep in my heart, I didn't. Believe in the things that I was. Talking about. I didn't believe it to be true.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And it didn't. It just didn't land for me like it did my brother. My brother was always, always loved the Lord. It was always his path. He was always a great speaker, always a great teacher. You know, my church was big in speaking in tongues and I remember at a Christian summer camp we went to, there was speaking in tongues night and if you, it was, you were basically, you were screwed either way. This is how I look at it because I never had spoken in tongues before, but this was the night. And if you had, you got in this line and you helped the kids that hadn't yet.

• 21:39Mayim Bialik?

  Sorry, this sounds like a SNL sketch.

• 21:42Speaker 01

  It's crazy, but it is true. And I remember I was in the line where I hadn't yet. And I'm like, oh my God, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna get to the front of the line and I'm gonna, something's gonna have to come out of my mouth. And the pastors, they're laying on your hands and like, you know, and I'm like, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna improv this and we'll see how this goes.

• 22:01Mayim Bialik?

  Did you sing something from Les Mis?

• 22:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I should have.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  And I just made up something and it was kind of in those, in that moment and around that time where I thought, I'm gonna have to really face the fact that I don't believe in Jesus like my family does. And I'm gonna have to, somehow that's, I'm gonna have to come to terms with that. And it really did, when the, on my 18th birthday, I had just graduated high school and I turned 18. My birthday is July 12th, 1975. I was on my final mission trip and I was secretly in love with, or had the crush on my, my, my youth pastor, this guy with big feet and a big nose from Truth or Consequences, New Mexico.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  And I was, and I went out, they got me a big blue birthday cake. I'm gonna go deep here, why not? They bought me a big birthday cake because it was my 18th birthday and I wasn't at home. It was one of those really cheap gross ones that you make your teeth blue. And there was a campfire and all the kids were singing and praising Jesus and had their hands raised. And they were crying. I was looking at my friend Willow. Who was one of my dear friends actually named my daughter after her. She was crying and I remember seeing the tears on coming down her face and she like really truly believed in this. I went out swimming, it was dark, the sun had already set. And this was like a strange beach in Mexico, you shouldn't be out beyond the reef.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  I was kind of just figuring something out for myself, I was about to have some kind of major existential crisis, I didn't know it at the time, but I just felt the need to go swimming too far. And um, I've actually never talked about this, except for my family. My heart's racing because I I'm remembering what it felt like. So I was out there, it was dangerous. And I was getting further and further away from the beach and I could see everybody and I just remember thinking, I'm gay, I'm not a Christian, I want out. And the church is not going to accept me. And my brother is a perfect athlete pastor. My little sister is this, you know, a wonderful.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I just, I felt so different and I felt so alone and I felt so um scared. And I made, I had like a weird little, I did a little dare to myself, I I I said, I'm just gonna let myself sink right now in the water. And I I don't know if it was as cognizant or aware as I'm saying now, but when I, as I look back as a forty five year old man, I look back at what was happening. I was just kind of giving myself an ultimatum. Like if I survive this night in this water, I'm gonna make some changes and I'm gonna come out and I'm gonna change my life and if I, if I don't, then I I don't and I let myself sink in the water.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  And it was cold and it was dark and I was, I just kind of remember feeling calm. And then I felt as if two hands yanked onto my shoulders and lift me out of this water, so much so that I thought someone was swimming with me, I was looking around like, what the hell? And I I came out into the, out into the air and I was gasping for breath. And I felt like I had been born again. Like they, you know, in in Christianity, you get baptized and you're born again and I was baptized and did the whole thing. This was for real. This was, oh, I'm, I'm now, I'm supposed to be my authentic self.

• 25:34Speaker 01

  And from that second, I was never the same. And I came out to my family about six months later. The church kicked me out. It was devastating. My family and I had to really take a sabbatical from each other because I had to allow them to mourn the loss of who they thought I was going to be and what I was going to be. And also, I just needed some space. So I went to Spokane, Washington.

• 25:59Mayim Bialik?

  The big city.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  And the big city. I um, got into a gay youth group. I got on a gay volleyball team called Safe Sets.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  And um, and it was that I started to find people like me and a tribe of people like me. And then I got, then I heard about a thing called Summerstock. And um, I had done some plays and I, I, I auditioned for this company in Coeur d'Alene. And um, I got in and the first production was uh, Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. And I think I slept with five out of the seven brothers, just to make sure. And um, it was, it was as if like, ah, this is where I'm supposed to be. These are my people. These are my weird queer, black circus folk. I felt so connected.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  And it was, and that set me on the path of really focusing on honing the talent that I had already been given.

• 27:02Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, so if we were to, if we were to draw a line from that moment to here, we would have this kind of like, perfect, polished, you know, story, right? Of Cheyenne Jackson, who is an incredibly diverse talent and has done how many Broadway shows?

• 27:22Speaker 01

  I think seven.

• 27:24Mayim Bialik?

  Of seven, okay, seven. Like, that's unbelievable. And you, you have this, this singing presence. You have a family. You have a husband of, of our tribe. You have a, a, an Ashkenazi prince. Um, and you have twins and, you know, you're at forty-five, still youthful and handsome and all of those things. Um, but there's, there's a lot in between, which I, I had Leslie on, Leslie Jordan, who, who we're also working with.

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:55Mayim Bialik?

  Having Leslie on made me realize like,

• 27:59Mayim Bialik?

  How important it is to tell our stories, you know? And the whole purpose of this podcast for me and Jonathan was instead of, you know, saying like, "Let's remove the stigma, let's remove the stigma." We're actually trying to sort of clean up our little corner of removing the stigma by asking people, you know, to talk about those, you know, those things that we're usually told to hide and those things that we often feel shame about. And what those things are, are just us being human. And it's different for everyone and there's not like a better or worse about it. You know, I come from the, the school of like terminal uniqueness where like I suffered the most, I promise. I want everyone to know how I suffered and I'll talk about it all day and I'll, you

• 28:42Mayim Bialik?

  know, I'll get to a book about it at some point.

• 28:48Mayim Bialik?

  There are some other significant things, you know, between 18 and now

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 28:53Mayim Bialik?

  that you have chosen to be public about.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:57Mayim Bialik?

  Being a sober person is one of them and that's something that kind of keeps coming around for me and Jonathan, just with people that we speak to. You know, we'll think that we're speaking to someone about depression or we think we're speaking about this, but this other stuff surfaces. And I guess I would love to know when, when your dance with filling that God-shaped hole started.

• 29:21Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, thank you for giving me this opportunity. It actually helps to put it into words because it's been a minute since I've talked about what went down and how and why. So I started doing theater and I was such a good kid all through school. I didn't have a drink of alcohol. I made sure that all my girlfriends were Mormon so I wouldn't have to be pressured to have sex and, you know, anything like above the blouse. I mean, it was, it was, it was, I kept it.

• 29:54Mayim Bialik?

  Kosher.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  Kosher. So I was a good kid and, you know, in quotes. And I definitely, I didn't experiment with anything because it wasn't, you know, I wanted to make my parents proud and at the time I wanted to make myself proud. Then when I got into theater, I mean, obviously what goes along with that is a bunch of partying and drinking. And I remember the first time. I drank.

• 30:15Mayim Bialik?

  So wait, hold on. Is that, let's stop you right there.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 30:18Mayim Bialik?

  So I was not a theater kid. Like, I, I missed out on this part. Because I was in school plays and then started professionally acting at eleven and a half. So, I've heard of thi- what is this? You mean, I mean, like, explain it for those of us who don't know. You're doing plays with people and it's just like, that's just the, the social world?

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's like, I call them, it's like carnies, it's circus folk. It's, it's, it's these mishmash of, of self-described outcasts who come together to create these shows. And you're in these, you know, disgusting little theaters, but to you, it's just incredible. And you can't wait to get to rehearsal and you run your lines all night and you just, everything is about, you know, the performance and, and, and running it and just being the best and challenging yourself and each other. And then what goes along with that is a huge social aspect. Because as soon as the show, the curtain comes down, every, all the drinks come out. And the shots come out. And I remember the first time I had a drink, I felt like,

• 31:25Speaker 01

  I've always had anxiety. I've always had, I can look back at, at home movies of myself at thirteen. A lot happened at thirteen. I grew, I grew seven inches in one summer. And all of a sudden, I was nearly the height I am now. I'm almost six-four. And I was about six-three. And I just was ahead, above everybody. And so, felt so awkward because it was a football town, like I said. They asked me to go and, you know, come watch a football practice. And I remember taking my dad, I wrote a song about this once. You know, I hadn't told my dad, obviously, this was, I was still in school. I hadn't told him I was gay. I didn't tell him until I was nineteen. But, you know, I came back after the break, the summer break, and I had grown so much.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  And the football coach clocks it. And he's like, Jackson, I mean, look at you, you're a linebacker. Come on, let's go. I'm like, eh, I don't know. It's not really. He's like, just come watch a practice. Just come watch a practice and see. And bring your dad. My dad was a cop. He was the undersheriff of Ponderay County. Drove us to school in his cop car. He wasn't supposed to. So we would have to hide in the back when he drove through town. The coolest, like Vietnam vet, bodybuilding, like manly, manly man. Uh, man of few words, but when he spoke, you definitely listened. And um, so my dad went to a practice with me and he thought it would be a good thing because I didn't have a lot of guy friends. And I remember sitting on this bluff overlooking all the guys, you know, playing football.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  And my dad and I aren't looking at each other, but we're feeling, you know, the same energy and. And it was so violent. I mean, you know, they're just crashing into each other and. And all I could think about was, what about my face? No, my mom always said, watch your face. Um, but I was seriously grappling with what, you know, how, how am I going to tell my dad? That this is not for me. And I was just, my mouth was dry. It's, it's dry right now thinking about it. And he put his hand on my knee without looking at me and he said, shiny. He called me shiny. He said, shiny. It's okay. You don't have to. And in that moment, I knew my dad got it and he, he got me. And remarkably, when I came out at nineteen, he was the one that had the, the least problem with it.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  That was just a quick sidebar, but it, that is to indicate how much anxiety I had about feeling different. So when I took that first drink, I always describe it as my head being like. Sharp jagged mountain peaks. And when I took that drink, it's like somebody poured yellow cake batter into the peaks and it slowly went up. And it evened everything off and I felt like, oh, there Shianne is, oh. He's not the guy in the corner that can't talk to anyone. He's the guy that will talk to anybody and he is. Interesting and interested and I felt really in my own skin. The problem was, once I felt really in my skin, I wanted to keep feeling that feeling.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  And then I would start thinking about, when can I feel that again? And I would go into a bar ahead of my friend. I got a fake ID at nineteen. In Spokane, a lot happened in Spokane. Dempsey's Brass Rail.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Um, I was dating a guy who was straight and he, we kind of looked alike. Um, and he let me use his ID and so I would go there and immediately go to the bar and ask for two shots. Cause one was for my friend who was gonna be there in a minute, but they were both for me. Just so I could feel like, okay, I can do this. I can do this. So from nineteen on, I had the idea that I wasn't enough. And I wasn't, definitely wasn't okay in a social situation without having something. So this went on for, you know, I was, I always wanted to move to New York and be on Broadway. But I didn't go to college and I didn't, wasn't trained.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  And I couldn't just take the word of people that said like, oh, you should go to New York. So I just didn't. And I moved to Seattle for a boy and we were together for a few years. And um, started working my way up into the Seattle theater scene. I became like the Seattle musical theater star and I was in all these productions and. I was twenty seven at the time and still was just, I worked at a magazine. And in Seattle and uh, then I worked for, as a bank teller for a little while, still doing theater at night.

• 35:52Mayim Bialik?

  I would wait in line for your row of the bank tellers.

• 35:55Speaker 01

  I was really fast. That's why in our show, I can count money really fast if it's still over there. I don't know if you noticed. But at twenty seven, I still hadn't made it to New York. I still hadn't done anything. Uh, and two things happened. Nine eleven happened and just obviously changed the way all of our lives are forever. And, and the, just the idea that everything is so finite. And um, something more sad, my brother, um, my pastor brother, he, his little girl died. She was three. And um, so it changed our family forever. And it was, there was so much grief and so much pain. And I just thought, I do not want to be an old man thinking, why didn't I try?

• 36:39Speaker 01

  Why didn't I go to New York when I was young? Everybody says I should, just do it.

• 36:45Mayim Bialik?

  And also, just for people who don't, for people who may not know this, this kind of world, like, New York is sort of like the, the place you go when you have a certain level of ability, because that is where Broadway is. Like, that's, like, if you can make it there, you'll make it anywhere.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 37:04Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 37:04Speaker 01

  That's right. And it was the ultimate. And I, those two things, 9/11 and Little Alexis, both of those just shook me to my core. And I thought, I'm gonna make this happen. I was in a local production of The Prince and the Pauper. It was a new musical. It was terrible.

• 37:22Mayim Bialik?

  I love The Prince and the Pauper.

• 37:23Speaker 01

  It's a great story, but this musical was not. And they would cast local stars, local theater, you know, like, names in the chorus, and they would cast the leads from New York. And all the leads came from New York. And there was this guy named Mark Kudish, who is a big Broadway star, still is. And I was cast as his understudy. And he said, he's, like, he played Gaston in Les Mis, or in Beauty and the Beast, and he's this big guy. He looked at me, he's like, dude, if you ever come to New York, I mean, I'll hook you up. And I got an agent. And, and there was something about him that was just so sincere and not creepy. And I knew he was straight. And it was just something I thought, okay, I'm gonna remember that.

• 38:06Speaker 01

  So, once these two things happened, and I wanted to make a decision, I had a boyfriend at the time. I said, listen, I wanna move to New York. I wanna give it a shot. And he said, go. I'll come when you get set up. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll figure it out, and we'll, we'll work it out and be together. And so I did. I moved to New York. I was staying in a shitty little apartment in midtown Manhattan. I immediately called Mark Kudish and said, hey, remember me? So, I'm here. Don't have pictures, or headshots, but I'm, I'm raring to go. And he was like, great. Here's my number for my agent. Go in. I'll tell him about you. And the next three weeks of my life, this is what happened.

• 38:49Speaker 01

  I went in and I read for these guys and they signed me. I read and sang and the my very first audition. I I got headshots taken, but I hadn't gotten them back. I just had the proof sheet, you know? And my very first audition was for the first replacement and understudy in a show called uh Thoroughly Modern Millie. It had just won the Tony for Best Musical and uh Sutton Foster had just won Best Actress and they were looking for somebody who could be in the ensemble, tap dance, and also understudy, Mark Kudish.

• 39:26Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Who is a low baritone and this guy named Gavin Creel, who is a high tenor. From all of those years of listening to Elvis, Roy Orbison, but also Ella Fitzgerald, Lena Horne, the thing that has made my voice special is that I can sing really low and really high. There was also a patter song in it and I've also been able to gesticulate and speak very clearly and quickly. One of my little talents and that there was a patter song in the show. It was just a perfect storm of all the stuff that I was good at. You kinda needed to look young and you kinda needed to look old and that's always been me. When I audition, I auditioned for The Sound of Music at sixteen and they said, are you here to play the captain?

• 40:12Speaker 01

  I'm like, Rolf, I'm sixteen. But I just have a big old cowboy man face and I just am a, you know, I'm like, I've always looked the way I look now. Basically, when I was, since I was sixteen. So I went into this audition and got the part. Didn't didn't know how to tap dance, but I I told them, if you cast me, I will learn. Um, I had so much confidence and they they thought my name was fake. They're like, I remember Michael Mayer said, Cheyenne Jackson, really? I'm like, yes, actually, I'm named after a TV show in the fifties. I can sing, sing you the same song if you need it. I really manifested that show to happen. I believed it was going to happen. I just had to kind of convince everybody else.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  But within three weeks of moving to New York, I was in a Broadway show. Mark didn't even know that I had auditioned for that and gotten it. He walked down the theater one night as they were like presenting me to the cast and he was like, oh my God, and he was gracious and wonderful. And then three months later, he got a job at the opera. And so I got to be bumped up and do his part. And he'd been nominated for a Tony. So it was the universe, God, higher power, whatever, telling me that I was in the right place. And so I hit the ground running and I just did show after show and I did workshops and I did.

• 41:27Mayim Bialik?

  Did the boy come?

• 41:29Speaker 01

  He did follow me. Yes, we were together for twelve and a half years.

• 41:33Mayim Bialik?

  You were happily drinking during this time? What was your life like? Like in terms of also a performer's lifestyle and?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  I was super ambitious because I started late, you know, twenty seven is considered kind of late to begin acting professionally. Um, I wanted to hone my craft as much as I could and I got, I immediately on every set. Or on every, in every show, I become friends and, and would, and would just. Gravitate toward the person with the most experience and just kind of get everything I could from them because I didn't go to school and I have this. Chip on my shoulder that I'm not smart enough and I'm not trained enough because I didn't go to school, but. It ended up not being true because here I was among the best of the best.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  My big break was I played Elvis in the Broadway musical All Shook Up and there's a billboard of my face in Times Square, five stories tall. Drinking began to be the thing that was my release. I would never drink during work, ever. Uh, and never by myself. It was always a social thing. It was always just something as soon as the show is over, you're on such a high. And it's New York City. Everybody just goes out afterwards. As my life started to get bigger and bigger, I needed that a bigger release. And then drugs came into the picture and I got into the gay scene, like the cir- You heard of like circuit parties, gay circuit parties where it's like, yeah, a sea of like muscle guys with no shirt on and the music's like

• 43:06Speaker 01

  For hours and hours and hours. So we would do ecstasy and we would do all the party drugs and that was just kind of my release from when I wasn't working. I did a play with Jane Krakowski and Sean Hayes. I did Damn Yankees and Tina Fey came and saw the play to support Jane Krakowski. And she she came backstage afterwards and she said, I like your big midwestern face and your comic timing. I hadn't done television yet and she said, I have this part on Thirty Rock. I'd like to gauge your interest. I'm like, it's high. My interest is high, Tina. Um, and so my first TV was Thirty Rock and they were at the height of their critical and commercial success.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  And I was well aware of what was just handed to me on a silver platter. So I just went right. Luckily, most of my stuff was with Alec Baldwin, who was so scary. And but he was brilliant, a wonderful technician and

• 44:04Mayim Bialik?

  Intimidating, I think more than scary.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Intimidating, intimidating because he is a master at his craft.

• 44:12Mayim Bialik?

  He is effortless. Yeah.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  He's effortless. You can give, they would give him two paragraphs, not unlike yourself, Mayim. You have, you have the same thing. I watched it happen. You'll be, you'll be given two new huge things to say and he like, he would scan it and be like, okay. And you do the same kind of thing. I don't know if it, do you have a photographic memory?

• 44:31Mayim Bialik?

  I have a visual memory. I don't like to call it photographic.

• 44:33Jonathan Cohen?

  There's a chip in their brain.

• 44:34Mayim Bialik?

  There's a chip in my brain.

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Well, whatever it is, it's amazing to see. I don't learn like that, but I, I would watch him and I learned so much from him. And so that was my first television that chain, train started to chug along. But my drinking just started to get out of control. At one point I was doing Thirty Rock during the day. And then I was doing the revival of Finian's Rainbow on Broadway at night. They worked it to where I could work and then immediately run to the theater and Ah, it was a crazy time. I would get to the bar and I wouldn't even be able to be focused with my friends and have fun with them. I would just be thinking like, when's the next round?

• 45:12Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 45:12Speaker 01

  Are we gonna get more? Are you gonna finish that? I mean, I would be watching someone's drink like, oh my god, she's not even drinking it. It's sitting right there. It's so delicious. And look at she's not even watching. Look at her. She's just like looking around the room, taking sips. Like, I, it became an obsession. And I had a few scary instances where I blacked out. I had a couple of overdoses. I ended up in the hospital. I've never talked about that, but I think it's important to be honest about. I started doing GHB, which is uh, what a lot of people do, a lot of, in the gay community at my, at my time, they were, there was a lot of that. And um, you can't do any, you can't have alcohol at all with it. And it's nearly impossible to dose. But of course, you know.

• 45:56Mayim Bialik?

  We try.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  As, as an addict, we were like, I got this. So, yeah, on two separate occasions, I woke up in, in the ER. And my friends just said, you just kind of fell asleep on the, on the dance floor and you were asking about your dad and you didn't have a shirt on. And I'm like, oh, charming. So, one too many instances like that. And then, um, I actually met Sia. The Sia who we all know and love. I met her at, we were at a photo shoot together and she was getting ready to go to rehab the next day. And I was really taken with her and she with me. And we definitely had a great rapport. She had seen me in Xanadu, a play I did on Broadway. We kind of kept in, in, in touch and I watched her life explode.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  And then in the following like six to 10 months or so. And what we say in recovery is uh, attraction rather than promotion. And you see something in someone else that you want. And I wanted that. I wanted peace. She had a peace that she didn't have before. And I did not have peace. I was in a marriage that was not great, not great communication and just not a great fit anymore. I got married, talking about my ex-husband. It was just my life had become unmanageable. And I said to Sia one day, ah.

• 47:14Speaker 01

  I think I might, she's like, be an alcoholic? I'm like, yeah, she said, I was wondering when you were gonna ask me about this. So she took me to my first meeting in New York, 52nd, I think. And I sat and cried through the whole meeting.

• 47:30Mayim Bialik?

  I was gonna say, it's just, yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Cried the whole meeting. She held me the whole time. And that was the beginning of it for me. I just, it landed hard for me. And I realized, oh, this is where I need to be. That was eight years ago.

• 47:45Mayim Bialik?

  Wow.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Actually, no, eight and a half, because I had one, I had one slip up. After my first six months of sobriety, I had a, I was shooting a movie in Europe and just lost my marbles for a night. And thought, oh, I can do one more night. And then cut to, that is how my road took me here.

• 48:03Mayim Bialik?

  Here's a question, and this is a, you know, a scary one, I think. I mean, it's the question. Whatever it is, whether it's alcohol, or sex, or food, or work, or weed, or whatever it is. If that's what's like filling in those jagged edges, right? If that's the, you know, if that's the cake batter. It's not that different also from if you go on, you know, medication for suicidal depression, or for anxiety. And you realize, oh, wait, there was something different in me. And this makes it doable. So the scary question is, you know, who are we? If we're not filling that, filling it with cake batter, right? Like, was Cheyenne supposed to be this anxious, you know, person?

• 48:48Mayim Bialik?

  When we find sobriety, you know, emotional sobriety, or, you know, whatever kind of sobriety. What we're saying is that we are learning something else, besides that cake batter, that allows us to both be who we're supposed to be, while also being in acceptance of all the limitations we have that made us want to use in the first place, right?

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:11Mayim Bialik?

  The question is, you know, who is Cheyenne really? Because that feeling of like, oh, this is who I'm supposed to be. I just have to be loaded to feel it. So who is Cheyenne really? And what do you use now? Like, what is it?

• 49:25Speaker 01

  I mean, this is the million dollar question, right? Mayim, I mean, learning to love yourself. I have to do a quick callback to something, because I just said, learning to love yourself. In this, in this, that same Christian church camp where we had the speaking in tongues.

• 49:43Speaker 01

  They also spent a weird amount of time talking about how terrible the song "The Greatest Love of All."

• 49:51Mayim Bialik?

  Learning to love yourself is the greatest love of all.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  Right. And they said, "No, no, no, it's not. It's, it's Jesus." It's, and, and I, but I was thinking, I just remember, that just reminded me of that. And it's just, it all makes sense.

• 50:03Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, God is another drug. That kind of God is another drug.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  100%. And learning to love myself, all, with all of my imperfections and my insecurities, has been my biggest, my life's work, has been my biggest challenge. It's something I knew I would never, until I learned how to be with myself sober, with myself.

• 50:26Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say, what does it look, do you look in the mirror and you say, "Cheyenne, I love you." What does it look like?

• 50:31Speaker 01

  In, in early sobriety, it looked like a, a, as simple as-

• 50:35Mayim Bialik?

  Looks like taking your skin off and making you walk out in the world without skin.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, with raw jagged edges. But it's, it, it, it, at first, it's just the baby steps of being in, uh, say like a press event, like for, in our world, where you have to be-

• 50:50Mayim Bialik?

  On display.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  On display. And, um, it's this constant juxtaposition because I'm also a vain person, somebody who wants to be looked at, but also I don't want to be looked at because I'm also self-conscious and I'm, you know, have, it's like this pull. So the big, the first big step for me was to be able to be in a public event, at a charity event or whatever, sober. And to be okay with it, small talk with strangers, I would rather do anything else in the world. It just brings up so much of my own shit. But I've had to learn that everybody's scared. Everybody's scared.

• 51:30Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, but some more than others.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Some more than others, but-

• 51:33Mayim Bialik?

  This is like, wait till you go to a press event with me. You will see some more than others.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  I love it. Listen, I, I, seeing myself in other people and seeing that, you know, I, I love to think about somebody as huge and powerful physically as like The Rock, Dwayne The Rock Johnson. I love to think of him, not in a sexual way, but at night, he's like

• 51:56Mayim Bialik?

  Speak for yourself, Jayann.

• 51:58Speaker 01

  Right, I know. Well, okay. But, uh, him, I like to think of him, a huge, powerful man, like, sleeping like a little boy in the fetal position, because at the end of the day, we're all the same and we all have fears and anxieties and worries.

• 52:13Mayim Bialik?

  Some more than others still.

• 52:14Speaker 01

  But some more than others still, true.

• 52:15Jonathan Cohen?

  Some fetal positions are smaller than others.

• 52:18Mayim Bialik?

  Some fetal positions are more pathetic than others, you know?

• 52:20Speaker 01

  That's true. Some balls are more tightly wound.

• 52:23Mayim Bialik?

  That's right.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Oh, my Lord. What I've had to embrace is, I mean, a, a daily practice of gratitude. Um, you know, I work a program, I have outreach, I have people I speak to, but for myself, I've had to learn to take care of myself. And that means, uh, eating right, that means exercising, that means meditation, although it's really hard for me, but I, it's something that I have to do every day, at least a little bit.

• 52:52Mayim Bialik?

  Is there God in your life? Is there a, a spiritual practice? Like, what's your higher power for you? I, I guess I'd be so curious. I mean, that, that's, what you went through is its own kind of trauma, you know, that kind of religious, meaning being excluded from a community that even though you had conflict about, was your home. My mother was raised Orthodox, um, you know, Jewish Orthodox and, you know, was effectively excommunicated and that, you know, that, that happens and it's, it's its own trauma. So I wonder if you have a, you know, just a distaste for that. I mean, you're, you're very, you're, you're an adjacent member of the tribe, as far as I'm concerned.

• 53:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Well, the, the God's honest truth is, I am working on it right now. Literally, two weeks ago, was the first time I've had a really honest conversation with my brother, with my pastor brother, about The abuse, that's the only other word I have for it because it was it was abuse in in the church in the school. I mean, they spanked us. It was it was I can't even as a dad now, I can't even imagine letting someone punish my children, let alone hit them, bend them over a man's knee. I mean, it's just like it blows my mind. And that's the tip of the iceberg. I mean, the stuff in this in the church.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And I don't blame my parents. They they at the time, it's what they thought was the best thing for us. But I'm talking as a 10 year old, they were, you know, because evangelicals and and pro-life go hand in hand. So what they would do is they would take us to anti-abortion rallies. But I remember in Sunday School, they would show us videos of actual abortions and pictures of that as a 10 year old. I remember this mini series called Left Behind. I think it just got redone by Kirk Cameron recently. But it's about the rapture. And I remember being so terrified that I'm going to go into the living room or the kitchen and see my mom gone.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  Because that's what happens in this movie. This little kid goes out and his mom's making cookies and then the blender is blending, but she's not there. Because she's been taken. But I haven't because I'm the sinner. I mean, it was so much fear. Honestly, my two hours ago, I was on I was in therapy with with Jason, we're in couples counseling. It started a couple of years ago and it's just it's so wonderful to be able to talk your shit out. And I have a lot of trauma from the church that is still clearly, I mean, I'm getting triggered just talking about it.

• 55:26Mayim Bialik?

  And I was I was also going to say, you know, this is not to say that all churches, I'm just like, general disclaimer. This is not to say all church, this is not to say all, you know, this is. This is a very, very, I mean, honestly, I didn't even know this about you. I was randomly guessing. But what I will say, and also something that Jonathan and I talk about a lot. You know, it takes two things to make trauma. It takes a genetic predisposition and it takes an experience. And you can have two children, even from the same parents, right? So those are the most genetically alike people. They can have the same exact experience, but because of any differences in their template, you can have a completely different set of coping mechanisms, reactions.

• 56:09Mayim Bialik?

  We've done an episode, you know, on homosexuality. There's diff, you know, people have different wiring and different chemistry. It's going to react differently. And that's not to say that every person who's gay, if you put them in a, you know, religious traumatic situation, were allowed to be as different as fingerprints and snowflakes and all those things. But especially for a child who is sensitive. You know, this is when people ask me like, well, can't I just hit my children a little bit? Here's what I say to them. You don't know what template you got. You can hope that they'll be okay and think that they deserved it and that it was for their greatest good. But it is never, ever comfortable for the person who loves and protects you to cause you fear, terror and shame and pain.

• 56:53Mayim Bialik?

  So some kids, you know, will come out of it fine and others will be devastated forever. So I think it's incredibly, you know, brave of you. Also, I try and talk as much as I can, you know, about therapy. My appointment is after I talk to you. I try and encourage that and also encourage us to be astounded by a system of healthcare that leaves this kind of, of mental health care to the elite. And to the people, obviously, you know, suicide affects you no matter if you're wealthy or, or poor. Mental health affects you whether you're wealthy or poor. However, if resources are given preferentially, you know, to people who can afford it, we don't have an equal system.

• 57:39Mayim Bialik?

  So it's very, very, you know, it's very brave and I'm very grateful to you, you know, even for sharing that you're in couples therapy. It shouldn't be something that's seen as a trend, you know, or something for the Hollywood elite, which, which I consider you part of. Um, to me, those are all the things like for me, that's self-care. You know, that's

• 57:57Speaker 01

  It is.

• 57:58Mayim Bialik?

  Self-care.

• 57:59Speaker 01

  It is for us, for Jason and I, it is paramount. It helps us. We've been together eight, coming up on eight years, married six, and we have four-year-old twins, a boy and a girl. I knew that I wasn't, you know, back in the day, uh, luckily, my ex-husband never wanted to have kids. So I just kind of thought, well, I'm not going to be a dad. Um, but I knew intrinsically that I wasn't ready to have kids until I dealt with a lot of this shit. Um, and I felt like I was ready. And then I met the person that I wanted to create a family with, and we are in it. We are in it to win it. And whatever that means. I, I want to just be conscious of everything. I'm gonna make mistakes.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  He's gonna make mistakes, but we just, I want to just get out of their way. And I want to, they're both so incredible and complicated and who they're going to be. They showed us right off the bat. Like Willow came out screaming and Ethan, Ethan was born in call. You know, a lot of people

• 58:59Mayim Bialik?

  Fred was born in call, yeah.

• 59:01Speaker 01

  Really? Yeah, it's very rare. And it was so beautiful.

• 59:04Mayim Bialik?

  Imagine feeling it in your body. I'll tell you how it worked next week.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Touche. I mean, seeing him, him come out for people that don't know what that means, but you know, you're born with, with the sac still intact.

• 59:16Mayim Bialik?

  The membrane, as it were.

• 59:17Speaker 01

  The membrane. Yeah. And, and he was like, it was like he was a little alien child. We could see him before, you know, and then they, he, the doctor gently tore it open and then the, it was just beautiful. So, yeah, I mean, therapy has helped us so, so much. And we have to be able to, there has to be no conversation that we, that is off the table. We have to be able to talk about everything. And do we get into it? Of course we do. And pandemic, I mean, brought everything to the surface. I mean,

• 59:45Mayim Bialik?

  Isn't it funny how it did that?

• 59:47Speaker 01

  Oh, my Lord. And so many of our friends, it really made them or, or broke them. And, and unfortunately, a few have broken because it's just brought to the surface, all of the things that were like, and we could just go away. And, but now being stuck under our,

• 1:00:01Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and I think a lot of people, you know, not just couples. And that was sort of why this became my quarantine baby, this podcast, because For those of us who already knew we had challenges to our mental health, this was like, how about if we then put you in a house and you can't leave? And you don't know what information to trust, even coming from the CDC, because it seems like when the White House speaks to them, they say completely the opposite 20 minutes later. And then for people who thought they were okay, but the rest of us were like, one day you'll find out how messed up you are. Then you put them in a house by themselves and it just like all, you know, came to a head. And that was literally when I sort of decided like, I think this is, like, this is what I want to dedicate.

• 1:00:45Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, you know what hours I work with you. I do. This is, this is the hours that I work when I'm not there. I did have a kind of two last questions. Yeah. You know, the first is, is something that, that came up when I spoke to Grace Helbig, who, you know, is a very popular online presence and YouTube personality. And part of her reason for embracing an online presence, she calls it comedy from home, is because of social anxiety. And she found a way to still get to be creative, but she gets to do it without having to go out and interact with people. But one of the things she talked about was being an attractive person and how people sometimes have a hard time understanding that attractive people struggle too. And you said something really interesting that

• 1:01:30Mayim Bialik?

  you didn't want people to look at you, like you did want people to look at you. And, you know, I have this fantasy that like, if I was the female version of Cheyenne Jackson, like, everything would be fine. Like, I would be fine. I would feel great. I would not wake up and not want to look in the mirror. I'd want to be like, look at what I look like. That's amazing. I can wear anything in any store. Everything looks great on me. I will be the envy. Of other people, not that I want people to, but meaning I won't constantly be the one wishing. So that's my, you know, 10-year-old mind, you know, when I first realized that I have a prominent nose,

• 1:02:13Mayim Bialik?

  prominent chin, and didn't have, you know, wasn't gonna get breasts when everybody else did. What is that? Like, what is it for you? Because, you know, it's not like, oh, pretty people hurt too, you know, it's not even that. That's so, you know, banal, but, you know, the notion that it is so much more an inside job. But I think a lot of, a lot of men would say like, oh, this, and I've actually joked with you about that and feel terrible about it. I constantly make amends to you. Like, I think I've already emailed you like twice since I've met you.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  You have. You're so great.

• 1:02:41Mayim Bialik?

  No, but I, but I have like, I have made jokes about that, when I've been like, oh, it's so hard to be 6'3" and male and white, you know?

• 1:02:49Jonathan Cohen?

  He's 6'4".

• 1:02:50Mayim Bialik?

  He's almost 6'4". It feels like 6'4", because I hunch all the time.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Well, they also give me boots there too, if you notice. I'm about 6'5".

• 1:02:57Mayim Bialik?

  Because if I looked like you, I'd wear boots. Okay, so, so just speak to that a little bit, you know, in terms of like-

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm happy to. I mean, this is a subject that brings me a lot of consternation, and has for a long time. I, I was aware of the impact of what I looked like on people very early. I, my brother was voted most handsome in school. My mom would constantly tell us how beautiful we were. Our beautiful bone structure, your beautiful eyes. You, you hear something enough to where you think like, oh, that's, that's what, that's what I have. That's my thing. I learned quickly that, that was not all I had to offer.

• 1:03:40Speaker 01

  But I became a little bit too focused on that, because I felt like, well, number one, I knew that it would get me in the door of certain places, but I also felt like I had to- Be extra prepared, do my job extra great. So it wasn't just like, oh, he he got in because of what he looks like. I had to be to do all the stuff and and be super on time. And I have a really good work ethic. And I think it was a lot from having to try to prove myself that I was more than a face. But I also have major, you know, we can talk about that another time, but I have major

• 1:04:23Speaker 01

  image issues and body issues. And and I think a lot, so many people do. I'm talking to more and more men in particular. You know, I came out, eh, came out, it sounds silly, but I came out about having had hair transplants about six months ago on my Instagram.

• 1:04:39Mayim Bialik?

  That's right. It was right when, I think it was right after we hired you.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:43Mayim Bialik?

  And I was like, I couldn't tell. I don't care.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Well, it's so funny because it's so funny you say that because I thought, oh, shit, like, I just, like, there's this image that we people have of you. But I, part of me, I had so much fear and anxiety. My brother, he lost his hair and he just shaved it off and he looks like Kelly Slater, the surfer, like he's gorgeous and has, you know, great skin. And but I was just, I was playing leading men and on Broadway and I needed, in my mind, I needed hair. So I like had five hair transplants and it was painful and it was expensive. And I hid them. And every new job I would go to, immediately go to the hair and makeup trailer and I would close the doors and be like, you guys. I have to tell you a secret. And I would always lay it out like it's this big fucking thing like, I'm gonna need so much, listen,

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  I have hair transplants. And they're all, they're all like, you know, hair and makeup people, they're like, okay. So what do you need? Some, some topics and we'll do a little, I'm like, it's, it was, it was always way, a way bigger deal for me. So yeah, during COVID, I, when everyone was giving themselves haircuts, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna buzz my hair and then I have this massive scar on the back of my head. And I just thought, I just want to be free of this. And so I posted about it. It can be, kind of became a thing. And some of it was negative because it looked like.

• 1:06:00Mayim Bialik?

  You can't win. You cannot win.

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  Intentions were pure to like, like shine a light on something that, and I have heard from thousands, I am not exaggerating, thousands of people, mostly men, many of whom we know, um, who have been like, thank you for talking about it. No one talks about it. So that I'm just, I bring this up because it's part and parcel.

• 1:06:20Mayim Bialik?

  Why are you imitating my voice, bro?

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  I bring it up because it's all germane to, you know, the image and what I, you know, what you feel like you have to put out there and that you are not your face. That's actually what I really love about this character on, on the show that we're creating, Max. He sees people for what they really look like. I really, and, and I have tried to embrace that in my own life, to see people's true selves and true inner beauty, because some of the ugliest people I know are technically the most beautiful.

• 1:06:53Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you, Shad.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  You know. You ain't right.

• 1:06:58Mayim Bialik?

  It's, it's not simply attractiveness. There's a lot of people who other people think are attractive who I don't. There's something about your personality that when you opened your mouth and when you read these lines, I was like, we were literally, this character was written to be the perfect man. The perfect man. Meaning, he's handsome, he's charming, he's sexy, he's funny, and he's quirky. And when you opened your mouth, I was like, that, we found Max. Like, we found this character. And then someone was like, he's gay. I was like, no, he's not. They were like, yes, he is. I said, if he is, it doesn't, it's like, it doesn't even matter.

• 1:07:42Mayim Bialik?

  For me, there's, there is not confusion about your character and how you are able to present in this character. And there's been so much conversation about who can play what part.

• 1:07:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:07:54Mayim Bialik?

  And, you know, which, which way can this go? And, you know, I've been asked to speak, you know, for, I spoke at USC about this, like, why do non-Jews play Jews? And can Jews play non-Jews? And as my kids say, every character I play is Jewish, because it's me. But some people seem more Jewish than others, right? You know, you have to wear so many hats. You have to wear even more hats, because you have an entire identity that is you as a gay person. That's who you are. It's, I would argue, it's who you've always been. It's who you're supposed to be. But also, you get to play this part. Like, what is, like, do you think about it? Does the gay community think? Okay, so I want to-

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  I have a lot to unpack here and let's just do it. Okay. First of all, I don't know if you know this, but um.

• 1:08:41Mayim Bialik?

  You're really not gay, you're in love with me, and we're gonna get married. Okay.

• 1:08:45Speaker 01

  Actually, um, I've actually never, I was talking to Leslie, so he's been with a woman, I haven't.

• 1:08:51Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 1:08:51Speaker 01

  So that's how, that's how gay I am.

• 1:08:52Mayim Bialik?

  First time for everything.

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  First time for everything. I always knew what I liked, what I was, who I was. Um, when this part came around, when the audition came around, I took myself out of the running. It came to me and I thought, they're not gonna cast me in that. I, I mean, I would, that's my dream. My dream is to be on something well-written, a multi cam. I was coming off of long hours on American Horror Story and I wanted something light and bright and joyful. And I opposite you, you know, you, I've told you privately what you have meant to me in my life. So like, it was, it was too much for my little brain. I was like, I don't want to put myself through this pain of being in, you know, like going testing and things if it's not.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  So I initially, even though I loved it and thought, I just said, I, I, they're not gonna cast me in that. And my agent was like, go on the audition, you're perfect for it. And I was like, okay, great. I will, I will, yes, I will take a look at this again. I will get into this again. I will, I will.

• 1:09:52Mayim Bialik?

  So why'd you think we wouldn't cast, like, what was it? Like, was there one thing?

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  In my experience, my friends and I, who are openly gay in the industry, and, and people that aren't even in the industry, but just, there is, we all have an internalized homophobia. And the first time I noticed mine was when I would meet somebody in my early twenties and halfway through a conversation, they would say, oh, I didn't know you were gay. And something inside me would be like, oh, it made me feel good.

• 1:10:19Mayim Bialik?

  Passing.

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Like, like I passed. I got away with something. And then I started to think, what the hell is that about? Why would that be? A good thing, whereas I am very attracted to feminine men. My husband loves me, he's does drag sometimes, he's beautiful, he's himself. I love that, that's what I'm attracted to. But in myself, I'm always super hypercritical. And as somebody who has often played leading men opposite women. When I made the move to, when I made the transition to television, there weren't a lot of us. You know, Jim hadn't come out yet. Jim Parsons, Neil Patrick Harris hadn't come out yet. It was, it was slim pickings.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  And so I often, to save myself pain, would just be like, eh, less and less. But then when this came, I just thought, I, I, I don't, you know, it wasn't. It, it, it was very early stages when I was like, I, I, they're not going to cast me in that. I mean, it's a huge, major Fox show and it's a network. And, and then I was in Washington DC singing and my manager said, Darlene Hunt would like to talk to you. And that had never happened to me before, a show creator calling me prior to an, an, an initial read. And I thought, oh, there's, they're seriously considering me for this, so.

• 1:11:42Mayim Bialik?

  It was actually my former manager who first brought up your name.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 1:11:46Mayim Bialik?

  My former manager, yeah, who, who put your, who put your name in front of us.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  So it was, that, that was the, the fire that was lit in me. And I thought, well, there, there's obviously some real interest. So this is my ultimate, this is my dream scenario. So don't take yourself out of it. You've been brave before, be brave again. So I, I worked so hard on this read. I was staying with my friends in New York and I, for hours, I wanted to kind of embody who this person was. I knew it, I felt it, it was like, ah, it's, and sometimes when things feel really good, it doesn't go the way you think it is. But I, because there's so much at stake, but I remember you were in LA, I was in New York.

• 1:12:26Mayim Bialik?

  Right, we did it on a Zoom, I think, or a, some sort of video chat. This was before COVID.

• 1:12:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it was the initial read and I felt prepared, I felt open and I did the thing. And you were kind of in the background and then, and then I didn't see you. And then you came across and you just did two thumbs up and you, then you got out of frame. And then we had our, then we had the test. Again, I got butterflies when you walked by.

• 1:12:51Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, the, I have to say, like, that was, that was the most fun was getting to show you off, you know, to the executives. Because every woman in the room and a few of the men were like, what just happened? Who's that man? What was that? Like, it's, but like I told you, like, it's your energy. Like, it's your smile, it's your energy. And so many guys didn't know how to play this. It's like, they don't know how to be a man. Like, how to be a, you know, a funny and a gentle and like sexy, but also not like weird. It was just, you nailed it.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  It has been a dream. It truly has been a dream come true. And I felt the connection between you and I in the room. And I knew that, yeah, and I knew it was going to be the most fun. And it is. Interestingly, I've gotten some messages and such on social media from people in the gay community who have a problem with me playing this part. And

• 1:13:49Mayim Bialik?

  Yep.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  It's very fascinating to me. I understand it. There are, there is a certain group of people who think that gay people should only play gay people.

• 1:13:58Mayim Bialik?

  It's fascinating.

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  A prominent gay actor just came out, Wentworth Miller, who said he only wants to play gay people. And great, if that's what you'd like to do. I have never put myself in a box. And I am certainly not going to let anyone else put me in a box.

• 1:14:15Mayim Bialik?

  I love that.

• 1:14:16Speaker 01

  I, I, I play Hades, Lord of the Underworld on the Disney Channel. I'm not really a lord of the underworld who steals souls, but I can pretend I am. And this is a bigger thing. This is actually, this is actually a good thing that I'm playing this part.

• 1:14:30Mayim Bialik?

  I would, I would agree.

• 1:14:31Speaker 01

  This is, this is an important thing. And the fact that you guys I'm sure there were discussions about it. I'm sure people were like, oh, how gay is he? And then what is his? Like, there is a definitely. It's a, it's a, it's a sensitive area and I, I respect it. I understand and I just, I applaud.

• 1:14:50Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, I just, I, I love our whole cast also because, you know, you and Leslie are both, you know, gay and fabulous and, you know, we have Julian and Kyla who like also we got to know them in the middle of Black Lives Matter and just learning about them and their lives. And, you know, I love that Suzy, as the white female, the WASP, is the minority, you know? She's, she is outnumbered by, um, by our, our queerness and our, you know, otherness. And it's really, it's just super awesome. And we do, we have a very good time, not just because we have to, because we have no one else to interact with. We're also making a show about really unusual people. These are, these are people who are more like the people I hang out with, I think, than, even than The Big Bang Theory.

• 1:15:36Mayim Bialik?

  So it's really, I, I don't want to take up more of your time, but I thank you so, so much.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Maya, for having me here, letting me tell this story. You know, you're only as sick as your secrets. And the more secrets I let out and the more I, I talk about, uh, my anxieties and my fears and my feeling weird, you know, it just, it lessens that. Yeah.

• 1:16:03Mayim Bialik?

  Super awesome. All right, chabachalow.

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  All right. See you, guys.

• 1:16:09Jonathan Cohen?

  I like his big Midwestern face.

• 1:16:12Mayim Bialik?

  I like his big Midwestern face, cowboy face.

• 1:16:14Jonathan Cohen?

  That's what she said?

• 1:16:15Mayim Bialik?

  Who is in a play? And then Tina Face sees you and is like, here, you want one? Like, that's an unbelievable story.

• 1:16:20Jonathan Cohen?

  I would like to gauge your interest.

• 1:16:22Mayim Bialik?

  High, it's very high.

• 1:16:24Jonathan Cohen?

  Tina?

• 1:16:25Mayim Bialik?

  He's very funny. He's also, you know, it's funny because he, he does, he seems very confident. I mean, I can't imagine you being the only person that tall who doesn't always seem so confident.

• 1:16:36Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm, I'm shorter than he is.

• 1:16:38Mayim Bialik?

  You feel, you feel, you feel about his height to me.

• 1:16:41Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't think feeling is how you measure height.

• 1:16:44Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, everyone's height is determined by how I feel. That's not, is that the clinical diagnosis of some sort? He looks so confident, like he, you know, he's a, he's a big guy. Like, he's a very, like, he's got big hands, he's like, he's like a big guy. And he definitely has like a cowboy ranch kind of feel.

• 1:17:01Jonathan Cohen?

  Is it wrong to say that?

• 1:17:03Mayim Bialik?

  Yes, whatever you're about to say is wrong.

• 1:17:06Jonathan Cohen?

  If Max was written as the perfect man, it doesn't seem incongruous that it takes a gay guy to play him properly.

• 1:17:15Mayim Bialik?

  Wow, I think we should probably cut that out. When I said that, that shy, that we wanted this character to be a perfect man, I didn't mean that it's because he's gay and there's something about that. It is a woman's fantasy of a man who, he's not, he's not feminine. He's not, um, he's not overly chatty, like, he's a dude, he's a dude. But what I mean is that he's, you don't have to choose with him. You know, you don't have to choose, do I want the guy who looks great? And is that, you know, kind of like physical package of like being on his arm? Do I have to choose between that and smart and funny? As our culture has got, gotten in many ways more misogynistic, it's hurt men too. You know, and we've set up this kind of dichotomy also for men,

• 1:17:59Mayim Bialik?

  where there is this notion of like, are you this guy or are you that guy? Which, you know, had previously been reserved for women. Like, are you attractive or are you smart? So I think that that's really what, what Darlene wrote when she wrote Max. And we had so much trouble finding this guy. And I kept saying, I'm looking for someone rugged. There's a lot of very, very attractive men who are actors. And they're very good actors. But I kept saying, I want someone rugged. Like, someone who looks like a Midwest, you know, cowboy. We found him.

• 1:18:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Another thing that he was talking about is, and just felt so powerful, is that conflict between the family, community beliefs and the personal, and how you're wedged in between those seems like an impossible position. And to see his transition out of that to finding his place is so beautiful.

• 1:18:50Mayim Bialik?

  Oh, I mean, that story in Mexico and, and I mean, just also, you know, it takes someone who's been in a lot of therapy and a lot of recovery to be able to describe his experience the way he did. He had so many mind-body. Experiences that he described. He described feeling that like tension in his chest, even recounting the story. Honestly, I do think that is because he's, he's a very specific kind of performer. And this is the thing, I am not that kind of performer. Like, you know, I, I can sing a little bit, I can dance a little bit, like I'm an actor. This is a man who can hold a stage with hundreds of people singing with a booming, beautiful voice. Also, so humble to be like, oh, because of the music I listen to, I can sing baritone and tenor.

• 1:19:34Mayim Bialik?

  Uh, no, honey, that's because you're born with a gift. He was born with a gift. Even his speaking voice is, is well-trained.

• 1:19:42Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:42Mayim Bialik?

  Like he said, like you can't, he can't speak. I mean, he does all the things that I'm supposed to do that I don't. But we had a, an ep, or the last episode we filmed, we had to be shouting over the rooftops of, of Louisville. You know, when I shouted, you could tell, like I could only do a couple takes before my ENT would be like, Mayim, I can feel across the city that you're gonna blow out your vocal cords. And when he does his yelling, it's like, it, it sounds like he could do that forever because he could, because he has a trained voice and knows how to use it.

• 1:20:10Jonathan Cohen?

  And you two sing together actually on a few episodes, no?

• 1:20:13Mayim Bialik?

  We do sing together. Um, we do a karaoke episode and he also, like also super humble, like he also is a piano player and he let me play the piano for our karaoke numbers, but I mean, singing with someone like that, you know, and he's so sweet, like even when I clearly did a terrible take, he'd be like, it sounds great. I really think it was a good take.

• 1:20:32Jonathan Cohen?

  So he lied to you?

• 1:20:33Mayim Bialik?

  He lies, yeah.

• 1:20:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Like a good husb, like a good husband.

• 1:20:35Mayim Bialik?

  No, but what I mean, no, he's, he's supportive of, of our process, you know, as a team. And we also got to do a special effects where we were flying and on a green screen and we got to be in these, in these harnesses and just like so much fun. And, uh, we just, we've been really having a good time and it's true, we definitely have a, a connection, we have a lot in common. We're, we're very similar in some really sweet, in some really sweet ways. Um, and yeah, I just, I think he's a really inspiring person. He's also, um, you know, very public, I mean, not like super public with his kids, but like he posted a picture on Thanksgiving that like, I mean, just, he's got like a makes your heart melt smile with his husband and their kids. It's just like, it's lovely. And he works his butt off for that.

• 1:21:19Mayim Bialik?

  Like to say, like, I mean, just- Sure, I want them to have that forever. But even to be eight years in, be like, you know, that's, it's really powerful. Anyway, I have nothing else to say because he said it all and he's a lovely, lovely human. And that's, it's just, I'm so grateful that he and that Leslie shared and that we're gonna have our other members of our cast come and share aspects of their experience. Before we go, let's do Ask Mayim Anything. Ask me anything, Jonathan.

• 1:21:46Speaker 04

  Ask Mayim Anything, yeah.

• 1:21:48Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, I think for today's Ask Mayim Anything, we have, I believe, our first audio recording.

• 1:21:53Jonathan Cohen?

  We do have an audio recording.

• 1:21:55Mayim Bialik?

  And she has an accent.

• 1:21:57Jonathan Cohen?

  Very exciting. Let's play it now and hear what Mayim has to say.

• 1:22:00Speaker 05

  Hi, Mayim, Rose here.

• 1:22:02Mayim Bialik?

  Rose.

• 1:22:03Speaker 05

  I have a question about ADD or Adult Attention Deficit Disorder. I was diagnosed later as an adult when seeking support for my anxiety. I was told my anxiety stemmed from issues with concentration caused by ADD. And that as someone who was essentially high functioning, all I needed was some meds to keep me focused. I left the doctor thinking that concentration issues were all ADD did. Surprise, turns out it was not the case and that has so much more to ADD than I ever imagined. And it impacts not only anxiety, but many other delightful personality traits. My question is, why do you think adult ADD is so poorly understood and discussed? What are the ways in which it can impact a person more broadly? And how can it be treated successfully?

• 1:22:45Mayim Bialik?

  You know, adult ADD is one of those like unhappy surprises. It's like if you don't like a jelly doughnut and you bite into it and you thought it wouldn't have jelly inside. It's like, oh, that's kind of what adult diagnosed ADD is. I think in many cases, it was there when we were younger. It's really only with... Our more modern and current understanding of what that diagnosis means that we can put it on people. So I'm a person who many would never think I would meet this kind of diagnosis, but as I told you when we

• 1:23:29Mayim Bialik?

  started, I've got just about everything there is in one way or another. The reason that it's so poorly misunderstood is that it's very hard to tell the difference between it and other things because we are a spectrum of chemicals and experiences. I have a very difficult time going to the supermarket and it's gotten worse as I have gotten older. Definitely got worse after my significant car accident, which I, you know, had several years of recovery and multiple surgeries for. Definitely has gotten worse. I thought it was because, I mean, I'm kind of the opposite of Rose. I thought it was because I'm anxious. I'm socially anxious. I don't want to deal with people and like, oh, and then I became famous and like, that makes it harder. No. With more examination and more

• 1:24:13Mayim Bialik?

  working this through, specifically in talk therapy, I have a set of physical sensations that overcome me when I am in a situation where there's too much stimulus. By definition, we put ADD on that because what it is, is it's the inability to filter appropriately. So I am a person who has a doctorate. I'm a person who learns, you know, 50 pages of a script every week. I vaguely run a household. I do many things, but many things are hard for me. Filling out forms, fascinatingly difficult for me. Does it mean I can't do it? No, but it means that it sometimes makes me cry and I never knew why.

• 1:24:58Mayim Bialik?

  I didn't know why. And I only found out, I think, after my father died, that he had the same thing. And he would act like he knew a lot of things because he didn't want to have to read the form and the thing. And, you know, I dealt with a lot of paperwork after he died that I realized he was, he was limited. Like, it wasn't just that he was lazy or that he, you know, incompetent or stupid. He, we have this thing. Improperly diagnosed, misdiagnosed, because it does look like a lot of other things. And many of us compensate. We do. We compensate. We get a friend to help. Or we've learned tricks, we've learned tools. Sometimes I have to pretend things are like a game. And like, it's literally just like a shift of the lens and then I can try and tackle it.

• 1:25:41Jonathan Cohen?

  I try to go to smaller grocery stores.

• 1:25:42Mayim Bialik?

  So, so the way that I get around it, I go to smaller grocery stores. Or I only go to one grocery store, where I always know everything that's gonna happen there. And I go at odd ti- I mean, my children know. Like, we will sometimes go that, like, when they were younger and I couldn't leave them at home, it's like, "It's 7 a.m. Put your shoes on, you're going in your PJs. This is the only time I will go to the supermarket. If you'd like to eat, get in the car." So yes, we compensate. So that's part of it. The second thing that Rose asked was, "How does it manifest?" Ah, so yeah, it'll look like that. It'll look, I mean, I'm literally speaking from my experience. It'll look like, uh, I don't like malls, um, certain lights. Well, I'm also light sensitive. All the things. But for me-

• 1:26:23Jonathan Cohen?

  Which is not necessarily related to ADD.

• 1:26:25Mayim Bialik?

  It's not necessarily related to ADD, but the sensations that I feel when I'm in a crowded place, like a flea market, something like that, it, I cannot filter. And if there's weird lights or a lot of music playing, forget it. Forget it. Fred had this, my little one, when we took him to New York for the first time, he was of walking age, and we, the first time we put him down to like, across the street, he stopped. The child stopped moving. And we're like, "What is wrong with him?" The amount of sound coming in. I don't know that this child has ADD. That's not what I'm saying, but there's a filtering thing that I clearly passed on to him. So it can look like those things. And what Rose was describing is certain things that she may have thought were ADD actually could come from-

• 1:27:08Jonathan Cohen?

  Anxiety.

• 1:27:09Mayim Bialik?

  An anxiety diagnosis too.

• 1:27:10Jonathan Cohen?

  And anxiety and ADD can really represent two sides of a similar coin.

• 1:27:14Mayim Bialik?

  Correct, but I never thought of it like, like, I never thought of it like that.

• 1:27:16Jonathan Cohen?

  I had an aunt who got adult, diagnosed with adult ADD, and she tried taking her child's ADD medication, which we are not recommending.

• 1:27:25Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 1:27:26Jonathan Cohen?

  But she, it was, she was like, "Oh, wait a second."

• 1:27:30Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah, that's, so what people report, and- And with people with more severe features of ADD, do report that a little bit, it's a stimulant because it forces you to focus better. People do report things like, "Oh, my God, is this what it's like for other people?" It's kind of like, like, my father didn't know he needed glasses, I think, till he was like 18 or something. And he said it was like, "What's happening? Like, I thought it was supposed to look like that." That's what people do report. However, it is a very strong drug. It is a drug with a lot of side effects, especially for little ones. It messes, which is also attractive to certain people, it messes with your appetite. It is not an insignificant drug. You should not take anyone else's medication. Just gonna say that.

• 1:28:15Mayim Bialik?

  What can be done? Yes, medication is one thing. Depending on the severity, many people do kind of, kind of live. You know, and it's just one, it becomes one of our, one of our quirks and one of our challenges. And there are other resources, and we can list those on the website.

• 1:28:30Jonathan Cohen?

  There's medication, of course. There's also just coping mechanisms, like you said. Where if you know that going to the grocery store at 12 is gonna be horrible.

• 1:28:40Mayim Bialik?

  Those aren't coping mechanisms, those are workarounds, you know?

• 1:28:43Jonathan Cohen?

  The difference being?

• 1:28:45Mayim Bialik?

  A coping mechanism is a system that is put in place with a, you know, kind of set of compensatory behaviors, as opposed to avoiding the issue altogether and just going when it's quiet.

• 1:28:56Jonathan Cohen?

  I don't know. To me, let's have a vote online on this one.

• 1:28:59Mayim Bialik?

  Well, no, but what I, what I'm saying is like, there are not always options to not go.

• 1:29:04Jonathan Cohen?

  For sure.

• 1:29:04Mayim Bialik?

  So, so for me, I need to have coping mechanisms for when I do need to go to Disneyland with my children. It is often painful. I have wept more than once at Disneyland, simply from overwhelm. The things that I get to do are know that I need to take breaks, know that I need to control what I can.

• 1:29:21Jonathan Cohen?

  Have a list of where you're going.

• 1:29:23Mayim Bialik?

  Sometimes, but my ex-husband, he's like an expert. He's got like a thing and he's got all these clauses for what he does if something's not. That's not my thing, but.

• 1:29:31Jonathan Cohen?

  That's not the reason you're not together.

• 1:29:33Mayim Bialik?

  It's not the reason we're not together. No, but for me, knowing that I don't need to participate in every single ride, every single experience. I have found myself sitting alone at It's a Small World sometimes because there is a quiet little nook there before you get to Looney Tunes. And I don't need to participate in everything because I get overwhelmed and that's okay.

• 1:29:53Jonathan Cohen?

  Rose, thank you for your question.

• 1:29:54Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you so much, Rose.

• 1:29:56Jonathan Cohen?

  For anyone else who wants to ask Maya anything, go to bialikbreakdown.com.

• 1:30:00Mayim Bialik?

  That's B I A.

• 1:30:01Jonathan Cohen?

  L I K.

• 1:30:02Mayim Bialik?

  Breakdown.com. We do everything together, even say the name of our website. From my breakdown to the one that I hope you never have and to the one that you might think I'm gonna have when I turn my back on this camera, we'll see you next time.