The Alien Invasion Already Happened. JFK, The CIA & Who’s Really Controlling History | Peter Levenda

What if the UFO phenomenon isn’t simply being investigated by governments, but is being used to investigate us? And what if the forces behind it are connected to consciousness, intelligence agencies, occultism, and nonhuman intelligence? In this episode of Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown, Peter Levenda, author of the Sinister Forces trilogy and co-author with Blink-182’s Tom DeLonge of the nonfiction Sekret Machines trilogy (Gods, Man, and War), goes deep down the rabbit hole of UFOs, UAP, nonhuman intelligence (NHI), government secrecy, consciousness, occultism, intelligence operations, and the mysterious “Men in Black.” We begin with the JFK assassination and explore its possible connections to UFOs, NHI, consciousness, and sinister forces operating behind the scenes. Levenda examines why he believes Kennedy’s assassination may have affected the American psyche more deeply than we realize, as well as the intriguing parallels between the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations. Could the U. S. government have been influenced by negative nonhuman intelligence? Was there ever a secret deal between the government and aliens? And is the growing push for UFO/UAP/NHI disclosure revealing the truth, or concealing something more sinister? Levenda discusses why he finds it frustrating that NHI is often reduced to traditional “angels and demons” narratives, and why understanding the phenomenon may require perspectives from religious scholars, linguists, anthropologists, psychiatrists, and other experts, not just the technological and military worlds. We examine the infamous Roswell UAP crash and its possible connection to Nazi technology, the relationship between occultism, religion, mythology, and power, and the disturbing ties between occult ideas and Nazi Germany. We also explore Levenda’s encounters with the “Men in Black,” including why he believes certain entities may not want him to have the information he possesses. He shares his own riveting UAP sighting and considers the strange possibility that his years of studying UFOs and occultism could somehow have played a role in summoning or conjuring the phenomenon. Could intelligence agencies be studying (and potentially manipulating) UFO experiencers? Levenda explores theories involving the CIA, reverse-engineering the phenomenon, and the unsettling history of government experimentation on its own citizens, including MKUltra, Project Bluebird, and the Montreal “deep patterning” experiments involving memory manipulation and alleged false-memory implantation. We ask what consciousness manipulation might look like today, and how psychological operations, propaganda, and behavioral experimentation could influence what we believe without us recognizing it. We also unpack the controversial theories surrounding Hitler’s alleged survival after World War II, questioning the official bunker-suicide narrative and examining conflicting eyewitness testimony. We also confront a deeper question: What happens psychologically when you go too far down the rabbit hole of UFOs, secret societies, occultism, and humanity’s hidden history? From JFK and Roswell to NHI, intelligence agencies, government experimentation, disclosure, consciousness manipulation, the Men in Black, Nazi technology, occultism, and Hitler survival theories, this conversation explores whether the UFO phenomenon is technological, psychological, consciousness-related...or something far stranger. And if powerful institutions have influenced what people believe for generations, how much of our reality is actually our own? Get 15% off at https://orionsleep.com/mayimThanks to Monarch for partnering with me! Start your free trial and get 50% off your first year of total money clarity using my link https://monarchmoney.yt.link/ZtigfhP or code mayim50 for 50% Off Monarch Core tier. Find the fall pieces you’ll reach for most at Quince. Go to https://www.quince.com/breakdown for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Learn more about Peter Levenda and his books: http://peterlevenda.com/ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0 ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0%E2%81%A0See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Shouldn't we be prepared for an alien invasion? It's already happened. They show up where they want to show up. Sometimes they're flying sausages. Sometimes they're cigar shaped. Sometimes they're orbs. The phenomenon manipulates consciousness. We're being controlled in some way. A couple of years ago, I had my own sighting. And that's when I realized what's going on. We're talking about a deeper kind of force in the world. Everybody of my generation, we were very much impacted by the Kennedy assassination. The Abraham Lincoln Kennedy connection. The more I looked at it, the stranger the situation became. And then you throw in Lee Harvey Oswald with a bunch of psychics at a seance in 1952, talking to aliens.

• 0:40Mayim Bialik?

  You've named too many things for us to say this is not significant.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  But wait, there's more.

• 0:46Mayim Bialik?

  Peter Levenda is an expert on conspiracy theories and UAPs. He discusses connections between the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations, MKUltra, and the possibility that Hitler escaped Germany alive.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  The CIA, we're doing incredible things trying to explore the potential of the human mind since about 1950. Operation Bluebird, Artichoke, and especially MKUltra. Can we selectively erase memory? Can we create an assassin who will kill on command and then forget that they were an assassin?

• 1:17Mayim Bialik?

  Who's Devilbis?

• 1:18Speaker 00

  That's where it gets interesting.

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• 1:55Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Mayim Bialik.

• 1:56Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 1:57Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our Breakdown. Today, we're going to be talking about an intersection of some of our favorite topics and your favorite topics. In particular, we're going to be focusing on the Lincoln and Kennedy assassination, connections between them, and are they indications of larger sinister forces acting in our government? In addition, how can those sinister forces be understood in the context of conversations about UFOs, non-human intelligence, consciousness, and continuing government manipulation?

• 2:29Jonathan Cohen?

  We often think of sinister forces as networks of humans, but this conversation makes a leap that we weren't expecting.

• 2:36Mayim Bialik?

  Peter Levenda is with us today. He's the co-author with Tom DeLonge of Blink 182 of The Sekret Machines, nonfiction trilogy, as well as Sinister Forces: A Grimoire of American Political Witchcraft. Peter is an expert on so many aspects of what many of us dismiss as conspiracy theories. He's here to help us dissect what's real, what's not, and what lies in between. In addition, Peter has written extensively about a lot of the conspiracy theories surrounding the end of World War II, as well as Hitler's location. He's going to talk about all of it with us. This is an incredible conversation. We're so thrilled to welcome Peter Levenda to the Breakdown.

• 3:19Speaker 00

  Thank you for having me.

• 3:20Mayim Bialik?

  I have to say, it's not often, you know, that we get a book like this. There's so many things to talk about in here. Also, really enjoyed God's Man and War. I have volume one here. So there's so many things that we can tackle. And, you know, when we were looking at the scope of what you specialize in, and in particular, what Sinister Forces covers, you know, there's this strong kind of thread that the United States has been shaped by, as you describe it, dark, irrational, and often invisible forces. Can you set the stage here for the things that we may not know are actually functioning behind the scenes?

• 4:05Speaker 00

  We, as observers in our society, talking specifically about the United States, we, we sort of hum along with certain expectations as to what's really going on in the world. And then there's elections, and there's assassinations, and there's wars. And we kind of take it in stride, and we say, well, this is just the way the world is. I used to think that as well. My focus initially, all the way back when this started, was trying to understand how religion and politics in the United States got so mixed up with each other, right? And in doing that, I had to study a lot of other stuff. I mean, I have a degree in religious studies. Pretty much for that reason, I was trying to understand what is that relationship?

• 4:50Speaker 00

  Because I grew up as a child of the 50s, being told that, you know, church and state are separate. And at the same time, you know, we're going and we're praying for the conversion of the Russians, right, to Christianity, right? And in retrospect, maybe not such a good idea. But at the time, we thought this is what we had to do, right? And so we're saying Novena, as I was brought up Catholic in the Bronx, and you know, so we're praying for this. So there's church and state is already inextricably mixed together. The godless communists, you know? So I wanted to understand how does that work? Because I thought that was rather uncomfortable. And the more I looked at it, the stranger the situation became.

• 5:34Speaker 00

  And I was, like everybody of my generation, we were very much impacted by the Kennedy assassination. So President Kennedy is assassinated in 1963. You know, everybody knows where they were, if they were alive at the time. And it's like a big deal. And it should have really done a number on the American psyche. And my point is, actually, it did. We just didn't realize it, right? Something did happen, and I started to pull at that thread. And I started to pull at that thread during Watergate, which is when I started with all of this, because Watergate was making me nuts. I'm reading three newspapers a day, and I'm trying to figure out, I know these names. I know these organizations. They're coming up again. You know, what is this really all about?

• 6:20Speaker 00

  And that's when I started doing an exhaustive look at the Warren Commission report. And so I'm going through the Warren Commission report, I mean, all the volumes, right? Not the little summary, but trying to figure out who's saying what? What are we not focusing on? And I come across one of the major players, Ruth Payne. This woman who passed recently. And she was the woman in Dallas, Texas, that, you know, took in Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina and their children. And she wanted to learn Russian, so the story goes. And that's why she had Marina Oswald, and she was like learning Russian with Marina. And she got Lee Harvey Oswald his job at the Texas School Book Depository. Okay, so I'm reading her testimony to the Warren Report.

• 7:04Speaker 00

  And she's starting to talk about going to visit her in-laws. And one of her in-laws is Arthur Young. And I sat there and I stopped and I said, what the hell am I reading here? This doesn't make any sense. And at that point in the, in the transcript, her story is stopped short by Alan Dulles, who formerly was head of the CIA, who had a big fight with Kennedy over the Bay of Pigs invasion. And he got fired because of it. And now he's in the Warren Commission Report trying to figure out who killed Kennedy. So I really, I'm looking at all of this, and I'm saying, why? Why did he stop her talking? What is that all about?

• 7:45Speaker 00

  And I started pulling at that thread, and it's Arthur Young of, a very famous guy, who was one of the inventors of the Bell helicopter during World War II, and a famous engineer who gave it all up to become like an expert in the paranormal, right? So now he's studying psychic research and stuff. He just gave the whole thing up. But that wasn't the major problem for me. The major problem was he was part of a group in the 1950s that was called the Nine. And it was run by a guy called Andrea Poharic, who was very famous, famously involved with the paranormal. And he discovered Uri Geller, brought him to the United States. He investigated all sorts of paranormal types. He worked with the government to a certain extent.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  And I'm thinking, what does Ruth Payne have to do with any of this? And it turns out her husband was Arthur Young's son.

• 8:38Speaker 00

  So I'm looking at this more and more, and I'm thinking, wait a minute, you're telling me that Lee Harvey Oswald was staying in a house in Dallas, Texas, got his job at the schoolbook depository by these people who 10 years earlier claimed that they were in contact with non-human intelligence, right? And this non-human intelligence was telling them, you're going to do great things, and you're going to change the course of history.

• 9:03Mayim Bialik?

  Some people might say, you can find a connection between anything, right? Give a bunch of monkeys typewriters and they'll write the Bible, right? What is that that people say? But that's too many connections. Dr. Mossbridge is an expert in precognition and, you know, many, many psi phenomenon. And what she says is you, when you're talking about kind of precognitive dreams and things, there's a certain number of items that statistically speaking, we can say, this is too many for it to be chance. And there's math to it, and there's stats that you and I don't need to get into. But when you have so many connective points around something like the Kennedy assassination, this is already too many, right? You've named too many things for us to say, this is not significant.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  But wait, there's more. It goes even worse than that because, so I started looking at that, that series of connections, which is a whole other thing that you don't want to get into. I can, I can, I can appreciate it. But look at the, look at the Abraham Lincoln Kennedy connection, right? So the amount of coincidences that connect those two events are stupid. Abraham Lincoln was elected in 1860, Kennedy in 1960. Okay.

• 10:16Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  Lincoln's successor was Andrew Johnson. Kennedy's was Lyndon Johnson. Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1847, Kennedy in 1947, right? Both presidents died on a Friday. Now, Lincoln had a secretary called Kennedy, who told him not to go to the theater.

• 10:36Mayim Bialik?

  That's right.

• 10:36Speaker 00

  That night, right? Kennedy had a secretary called Lincoln, who told him not to go to Dallas.

• 10:42Mayim Bialik?

  You didn't know this, right?

• 10:43Jonathan Cohen?

  No, I didn't know this.

• 10:44Mayim Bialik?

  You're Canadian also, so this might be not something they're talking about.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  Go even further. I mean, Lee Harvey Oswald, if he was the shooter, shot Kennedy from a warehouse and was captured in a theater, right? So John Wilkes Booth shot Lincoln in a theater. And was captured in a warehouse. Okay, this doesn't make sense, right? This makes no sense. I mean, if you're trying to, to, to create some kind of a theory of life and everything, this doesn't make sense. That's way too many coincidences, right? And then you throw in Lee Harvey Oswald with Ruth Payne and a bunch of psychics at a seance in 1952 in Maine, talking to aliens, right? And then these people eventually go on to become pretty well-known in their respective

• 11:29Speaker 00

  fields, and you're thinking to yourself, wait a minute, this is not a conspiracy anymore. We've left the conspiracy territory behind. We're in another territory now. And this is what I call the sinister forces. This is something that cannot be a bunch of guys in a back room smoking cigars saying, let's kill Kennedy. They probably had that, but there was something else that they were operating within, an environment that they could not even begin to understand. Something was actually pulling strings, or there was, there's a, there's a kind of science we don't understand yet, where events cause, you know, ripples in different directions.

• 12:03Mayim Bialik?

  We have to take into account the fact that, you know, elections happen every four years, so there's going to be a rhythmicity to numbers. So you can grant me that, right? So like 100 years, like someone had to be separated by 100 years. It's definitely like wild. Honestly, your book and this line of thinking is one that allows you to be, to say more than, wow, that's wild, and to say, is there some consciousness field, right? That was linking, linking Lincoln and Kennedy and these, you know, two events in some larger way? I don't know that.

• 12:38Jonathan Cohen?

  And if so, what is the message of having these leaders taken out in this particular way? Because most people are comfortable, or even like, as you stretch into the sinister forces, most people think human, nature, you know, maybe some occult, but like mostly human, mostly working for the advantage of material possession, or control, or power. These people have pissed off the, you know, the real organizing, you know, controlling forces of what the US is actually built from, and, you know, people are pulling the strings in the background.

• 13:19Jonathan Cohen?

  But this goes way beyond that, which you say, and goes into a realm, as you, as you describe, that there's science we don't really understand? My MB Alex Breakdown is supported by Orion Sleep.

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• 16:45Jonathan Cohen?

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• 17:36Mayim Bialik?

  When many of us think about UFOs, we think about even near-death experiences, right? People often have these sort of incredible experiences that are life-changing or life-altering. But one of the things that you talk about, you know, prophets, alien visits, there's often an impending doom that's communicated, right? And I know best, you know, kind of the references, especially in God's Man and War, which, you know, I really appreciated. I know best the sort of like classic biblical prophecy, right? It's, oh, it's doom and gloom, right? And, oh, this is gonna happen, and if you don't do this, or I saw a vision and the whole world is gonna end, right?

• 18:19Mayim Bialik?

  Which, at that time in history, you know, felt very close. But when you think about Lincoln, and you think about Kennedy, the other two things that those presidents had in common was that they were working for some pretty bold and, by most standards, progressive values, right? And like, you know, my parents were Kennedy Democrats, you know, they remember where they were, what they were wearing, you know? My father grieved Kennedy, you know, his whole life, bless his memory. You know, Kennedy, and Bobby Kennedy as well, you know, these were people who were working for civil rights, they were working for the rights of women and underserved populations.

• 19:03Mayim Bialik?

  Like, this was a progressive, new vision, right, of America that Kennedy was presenting. And Lincoln, you say what you will, right? Lincoln, one of the main things that every kid knows about Lincoln is he wanted to help free the slaves, right? So you have these two great progressive leaders who are both taken down. The fact that there could be a connection to something alien, as it were, is incredibly disturbing, because I think most of us wanna believe, oh, aliens or other realms of consciousness are here to help us be better people and embrace love. You know, this is truly the dark side of these phenomenon, right?

• 19:47Mayim Bialik?

  That's what the occult is. That's disturbing.

• 19:50Speaker 00

  Sure. One of the other things that I discovered while I was doing the research on the assassinations was that I started researching Jim Garrison's investigation, you know, in New Orleans, the famous movie JFK, right? So I'm investigating that. Guy Bannister ran that detective agency in New Orleans that Oswald ran his fair play for Cuba's stuff out of, right? So Guy Bannister, you pull that thread, right? And Guy Bannister is back in 1947, he's in the Pacific Northwest, and he's reporting directly to Hoover on UFO sightings in the Pacific Northwest. That was his thing, was to go and report on the UFO sightings, do the whole Men in Black thing, you know, who's talking to who, who had the sightings, what's going on.

• 20:34Speaker 00

  That was his, like, his first job in the Pacific Northwest for the FBI. At the same time, another suspect was Fred Crisman. Fred Crisman was exhaustively interrogated by the Garrison people in his connection to the assassination. Fred Crisman was the guy in 1947 at the seminal, you know, UFO event, which was, he was involved with the guy who eventually saw the flying saucers and created that term, the Moray Island Affair, which was when a saucer evidently fell apart in pieces, and the US Air Force goes to collect those pieces of the crashed UFO from Fred Crisman, and their plane blows up and they die?

• 21:17Speaker 00

  This is all very well documented in 1947, right? These two guys, Fred Crisman and Bannister, who were in the same part of the country investigating UFOs, being involved with UFOs, with Kenneth Arnold, the guy who saw the flying saucer shapes and created the term, these, all these guys knew each other. And now Crisman and Bannister are suspects in the Kennedy assassination? So the NHI, non-human intelligence, alien thing is there. And I didn't believe that when I first saw it. I had to actually go to the documents, go to the transcripts and say, yeah, these are the same guys, these are the same people. They talked to Fred Crisman. Fred Crisman evidently was the first guy that was called during the Kennedy investigation in New Orleans.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  Clay Shaw called Fred Crisman when he was arrested. What? So what is the UFO connection? Lee Harvey Oswald, the non-human intelligences, Arthur Young, you know, Andrea Puharich, there's an NHI factor here? And it doesn't make sense either, right?

• 22:19Mayim Bialik?

  So one explanation might be, there's a negative motivation that is potentially being harnessed by access to non-human intelligence or, you know, psi phenomenon that we may not be able to accurately define right now, but the idea that, in the same way that many prophets, for thousands of years, have, you know, estimated that doom is coming, there may be a kind of doom that is impending, that could be somehow controlled or harnessed by consciousness outside of the one that we are accessing.

• 23:04Mayim Bialik?

  Is that close?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  That's as good an explanation as we have at the moment, because we're kind of in the dark. Everything that you've said points to manipulation, a control system, as Jacques Vallée would have it, or John Keel back in the day. They would say this is a control mechanism, they're, we're being controlled in some way by this, and we're being controlled not for the, not for the good, it would seem, at least depending on your political position, right? As you mentioned, the progressive character of Lincoln and Kennedy would seem to point to somebody wanting to stop that. And if they're not human, then what are they? If this is not a human conspiracy, if this is something on a deeper level, then we're

• 23:48Speaker 00

  talking about deeper forces, we're talking about a deeper kind of force in the world that is trying to screw with that. I mean, if you listen to what's coming out of Congress these days, you know, aliens are, get lumped into the angels and demons, you know, category, and that's really irritates me, because nobody's defining their terms where this is concerned. They just say demon, and it must be like from The Exorcist.

• 24:12Mayim Bialik?

  In God's Man and War, you point to that very specifically, and I found that very disturbing, because, first of all, as someone who is not of the dominant religion of this country, and, you know, someone who definitely identifies as, you know, a bleeding-heart liberal, you know, raised by civil rights activists, there's a lot of disturbing language, and I'm very, very interested in this. I watch a lot of documentaries, probably too many. You know, I'm very interested in the family, I'm interested in the whole kind of notion of the evangelical influence on the government, like, this is just fascinating to me. But you point out, you and Tom point out, the rhetoric surrounding demonic forces, it's kind of showing up everywhere.

• 24:56Mayim Bialik?

  And actually, there was recently an article about a rise in churches that are specifically aimed towards seeking out demonic forces and purging them. And in many cases, you know, the definitions vary, and I think that's what I'd love for you to also help us understand. This isn't about Republican and Democrat, this isn't about liberal versus conservative, this isn't about Christian versus Muslim, right? There's something larger here that is being harnessed, and depending on who you define as the demon, right, all of this can kind of tilt, because for some people, demons are gay people, right? That's a demonic force that needs to be purged from our community, right?

• 25:40Mayim Bialik?

  And for some people, it's people of color, for some people, it's, you know, people less fortunate than them. Like, it can be so many things, but what you're kind of implying is that the government itself may be tilting in a particular way that might be influenced by things like the occult.

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Sure. We're being teased by the government with something called disclosure. And they're having the meetings, they're having the presentations, they're doing this, and they're doing that.

• 26:11Mayim Bialik?

  It's working. I'm in. They've reeled me in. I'm like that girl who, like, keeps hanging on, waiting for the next call.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  It ain't happening, right? But as long as you can tease disclosure, you can throw anything into that pot, because you're in control of the narrative. So we're looking to the government to be in control of the narrative. There's this, this consistent...

• 26:33Speaker 00

  Myth, in my estimation, that somehow there was some agreement made between our government and the non-human intelligences. This drives me up the wall. That's just not possible. There is no such... No, forget it. Doesn't happen, couldn't happen, can't happen. Okay? So there was Majestic 12, there was the MJ12, you know, the fake, you know, the sort of, these documents that look pretty real. As someone who crawls through National Archives constantly, they look pretty good to me. So somebody went to a lot of trouble to create these documents, and they didn't make a dime off of it, right? So they did this for a specific reason.

• 27:16Speaker 00

  Was this to plant, you know, a story? And then create the controversy, and then debunk the controversy, and by extension debunk the UFO community? You know, what is all of this? I mean, why are they doing this? And there are people now, you talk to them in the UFO community, oh yes, there are, we know there are seven races. What? We don't know in this world what a race is at this point. You talk to any anthropologist, they're not going to talk to you about race, okay? That is like the 1930s, once their eugenics back, right? So they're talking about, how do we know there's seven races? Right? What are you basing that on? And what language are you using to communicate with these beings?

• 27:57Speaker 00

  So there's so much of this stuff, assuming facts not in evidence, as I like to say, that in the government, we're in the same position. They're talking angels and demons. Okay, sure, fine. You know, what does that mean? Well, it means whatever they say it means. If they're in charge of disclosure, they can tell you, they're demons. And they're going to tell you, these groups are actively cooperating with these non-human intelligences, therefore they're demonic, therefore we have to get rid of them. It's an easy, it's an easy step.

• 28:24Mayim Bialik?

  I don't mean to sound naive, but this notion that kind of everything that we're being told to trust might just be essentially a further tease, you know? And I think Lou Elizondo talked about this, kind of, you know, there's this sort of like, like, we're going to pretend that we're being magnanimous, and we're going to pretend that we're disclosing, but what we're actually doing is creating just a different kind of smokescreen that doesn't look like smoke, but it actually is. That freaks me out, and I'm that person who was like, all right, bring it on. I'm ready for disclosure. We had Neil deGrasse Tyson on, and he's like, show us the alien. Bring it out. Like, let's do it.

• 29:04Jonathan Cohen?

  Show us the alien until it's responsible for multiple presidential assassinations, and then you're like, I don't know if I really want that.

• 29:13Mayim Bialik?

  With your background and, you know, your knowledge of sort of religion, and religious history, and sort of religious context, you know, there is nothing new under the sun, right? And one of our favorite games, when we have people on, and you do it in, you know, in God's Man in War, also with Tom in particular, for thousands of years, we've essentially been given the same message, right? In different ways. So there's nothing really new, it just depends on the cultural environment that we find ourselves in, in terms of how we frame it, right? But I don't like the idea, right, that there are these forces of like, angels and demons and Satan, like, that makes me nervous and itchy, and it makes sense to me more in the

• 29:58Mayim Bialik?

  context of 5,000 years ago, or even, I'll give you 2,000 years ago, right? Like, if people want to like picture Jesus time, right? That's 2,000 years ago or so. But when we're talking about the current government structure, when we're talking about world politics, when we're talking about presidential assassinations, I don't want us to be operating under the same misnomers, right? That thousands of years ago were the only explanation. We have to be able to do better, especially if beloved progressive presidents are being assassinated.

• 30:32Speaker 00

  No, I agree 100%. We're being given a cover story and a context, and there's no verification for it. There's, it's just people jumping to these conclusions, they're not defining their terms. So when they say demons, we don't know what they mean, right? We have to figure out where are they coming from, what do they mean? And what does that term mean to people in Asia, for instance, who didn't grow up in any of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim, you know, contexts, right, at all? So you have Taoist Chinese, right? Don't tell them demons, right? I mean, none of this makes sense to the world at large, but we're so, we're so Eurocentric, we're so American-centric, that we think that, you know, an American president signed an agreement with the aliens, and that's what's going on right now.

• 31:15Speaker 00

  No, that's, that doesn't make any sense at all. They say, why don't the aliens land on the White House lawn? What do they know from the White House lawn, right? I mean, they're aliens, right? So they just show up when they want to show up, where they want to show up, and they leave. So there is a phenomenon. Let's not lose track of that, right? All of these explanations, all the smokescreens that are going on, and government, governments will lie, manipulate information, we know that. We're comfortable with that. We know that's what goes on. But what actually is taking place in the real world is that there are sightings, there are, there's an actual phenomenon that exists. And we're not defining it, we're not getting closer to it, because now we're waiting for

• 31:57Speaker 00

  the government to force-feed us, or spoon-feed us, their explanation for what this is. And I'm sorry, I don't think they know much more than we do.

• 32:06Mayim Bialik?

  Really?

• 32:07Speaker 00

  They may have more data, I don't think they understand the data. If they did, I think they'd have an easier time rolling this out. But I think they don't know what they have. I think they don't know what the hell crashed in Roswell, for instance, right? There's all kinds of stories out there, you know? I was of the inclination, judged based on what Kenneth Arnold saw in 1947 in the Rocky Mountains, when he described the UFOs, you know, like saucers skimming across water. The design that he drew was not the typical flying saucer, it was a, it was the design of a Nazi prototype, right? That was, they were developing during World War II.

• 32:46Mayim Bialik?

  Did you just say a Nazi prototype?

• 32:48Speaker 00

  The Horton Brothers, these are two brothers who were engineers during the Nazi period. They were very much involved in trying to do alternate propulsion, different designs for spacecraft, I mean, for aircraft in general. This kind of disc with a bike taken out of the back of it, that sort of scalloped shape, that was what Kenneth Arnold saw in 1947, but that's what the Nazis had been designing during the war. Now, we know about Paperclip, right? We know we took all these Nazi scientists and, after the war, much to the chagrin of a lot of scientists and engineers here, but the Soviets took in thousands more. I mean, they had access to a lot of them, they moved in from the East into Germany, and they just scooped up thousands of scientists, they built an entire village, entire town

• 33:31Speaker 00

  for them, I think in what is now Ukraine. And they were doing missile research and anti-gravity, all kinds of different propulsion, exotic things that were happening there. So we know that they were involved in that, and they had access to the Nazi prototypes. So there's a possibility, and I'm not saying this is what happened, but people we talked to, people that Tom talked to, his advisors, his famous advisors, were letting drop these hints that, that thing that crashed in Roswell might have been a Nazi prototype that crashed, right? So there were people that fought over that idea in the 1940s in the Air Force.

• 34:11Speaker 04

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• 34:54Speaker 04

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• 34:57Speaker 05

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• 35:33Speaker 00

  And they were saying, "Why would the Russians do something so stupid and so clumsy as to fly one of these things over and then let it crash so that we'd find it? Was it deliberate? Or was it, you know, was it a mistake? Was this really a Nazi craft? And did that really start the whole UFO thing going on? Well, it didn't. This is the problem. The government had one set of things happening. But the phenomenon was doing its own thing. Right? So the government could see a way, "How can we exploit the UFO phenomenon for our own purposes? We're in the Cold War. This could turn into a shooting war really quickly. The Soviets have nuclear weapons. We have nuclear weapons. How do we get up to the line but not cross it?

• 36:16Speaker 00

  You know, how do we control our respective populations? Throw in the UFO stuff, right? That will muddy the waters. We can do tests and people will say, "Oh, it's UFOs." And we'll say, "Well, there's no such thing as UFOs." And we'll go in circles, as we have been since 1947.

• 36:31Mayim Bialik?

  Literally.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Literally, yeah.

• 36:34Mayim Bialik?

  This is particularly intriguing because I think what a lot of skeptics of the phenomenon, as you describe it, what a lot of skeptics say is that just because we don't know what something is, doesn't mean that it's alien, meaning in terms of, you know, grays or whatever. Is it possible that there is technology that is outside of the purview of the United States government? Now, many people then would say, "There is no technology that we would be able to observe that we cannot understand." We've spoken to people who have been trained, right? They're military-trained pilots, admirals, who say, "This is not technology that we

• 37:19Mayim Bialik?

  should be comfortable not understanding." Meaning, if we see things on our, you know, on our instruments that are defying the laws of physics as we know them, and we cannot hear them, even though they should be making sound, and they are moving in patterns and ways that we cannot explain, no one in the government should be comfortable with that happening because it's either happening secretly by someone in this country who should not have access to that technology, it's happening from adversaries, which if we don't know where that's coming from and we can't detect

• 37:59Mayim Bialik?

  it, also not okay and not safe for our pilots and the men and women serving in the US military, or something I can't explain, or aliens. Right? Those are kind of our choices.

• 38:13Speaker 00

  We're always stuck right there at that one point. I think one of the problems is, we don't have enough people trained in other disciplines to look at this. We have engineers, right? They're looking at it from an engineering perspective. Like Steve Justice, he was part of Two of the Stars back in the early days, right? He had worked for Lockheed, I think. You know, and he wanted to know how these things flew. And he was looking at the nuts and bolts aspect of it. And then we have, you know, the other intelligence people that Tom talked to and the generals and all of that, and they're all looking at it from that point of view. And the point that I make, that I try to make in the Sekret Machines books, is that we need input from people we're not talking to.

• 38:58Speaker 00

  We need input from the Religious Studies crowd, right? We need input from the linguists. We need input from anthropologists. We need people who can look at this from a different angle, a different perspective, and try to explain it. From a psychiatric point of view as well. I mean, people are having experiences. They're suffering PTSD from these things. And the only way they can describe it is, "I was abducted by an alien." Because that's the conversation we're having now. Is there another way to look at this? Can we start separating this stuff out? Because when you see lights in the sky and they're doing crazy stuff, that's pretty much a fact. The problem is, it's the same problem we have in a court of law. We'll have eyewitnesses to an event. We'll have five eyewitnesses to a murder.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  They'll all describe the killer differently, right? So they're all wrong. Not exactly. A murder did take place and they saw it. Something happened that they saw. So this "lights in the sky" stuff is like that. It's like a murder, right? And everybody sees it and they come away saying, "I saw an angel. I saw a demon. I saw this, I saw that." But they saw something. And it's that something we're not getting to because we say, "Well, I don't believe in angels and I don't believe in demons, therefore you didn't see anything."

• 40:09Mayim Bialik?

  This is, you know, its own sinister force, that when people try and use the language available to them to describe what they are seeing, it then opens them up to ridicule, both individually and then collectively. Because if you have different people describing different things, people are like, "Well, all these people are just crazy. This person thinks they saw an alien. This person thinks they were abducted. This person says that she sees angels." I'm thinking of Lorna Byrne, right? "They're all just crazy." Right? That's the sort of distinction that people want to make, right? There's sane people and there's crazy people. But what you're saying is, what if we remove all those labels, right?

• 40:48Mayim Bialik?

  We take away all the words and what we have is people having undeniable experiences that we don't yet truly understand or know how to articulate. And once you insert the government into trying to help us understand, you're then seeing the veil that the government wants to put on it, which might have its own sinister or occult or, you know, witchy, you know, kind of background or perspective.

• 41:18Speaker 00

  We are not looking at the event itself. We're not looking at the thing itself. We're looking at the words used to describe it. And that just throws us all nuts, right? So the government comes in with its own words and its own descriptions, right? And so nobody gets to the actual experience itself. We can't analyze it because we're too hung up on the way people culturally are understanding it. These things have happened all over the world. The sightings have happened all over the world. I mean, I was a firm believer in the UFO phenomenon for years, only because of the documentation. The documentation, you can't deny the documentation. And, you know, the people may be describing things differently.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Eyewitnesses are going to be describing things differently, but something happened. And eventually, a couple of years ago, for the very first time, I had my own sighting, right? And that's when I realized what's going on. What is so wrong? Because for the very first time, after I had done the Sekret Machines books, it's all already done. I'm already out there, you know, never saw UFO, never saw any of this stuff. And then I'm driving home one night in South Florida. And it's in December. And I think there's a helicopter, a police helicopter, right over where I live, right? And it's kind of, well, I stop the car and I look up and it's not a police helicopter. It's making no sound at all. And it's right over the car.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  It's just sitting there. And it's taking me, I'm going through all the words. "This must be a helicopter." "No, it's not a helicopter. Maybe it's an aircraft that I don't recognize." I'm going through all the options before I get to the obvious one, right? I'm trying to explain to myself, using my rational mind, I'm going through the index file, all the things this could be. When I finally realize I'm looking at a freaking UFO, it just takes off. It disappears. Suddenly, it's gone. No sound, no idea of an acceleration, nothing. It's there and then it's not there. And I see the lights in the distance and then it's gone again. Right? So then I sat back and I said, "Okay, well, I saw it. Now what?" Right? What was that then? What words am I going to use to describe it?

• 43:30Speaker 00

  I can describe the shape. I can describe the fact that it made no sound, that it, you know, was stationary in the air without any visible means of propulsion. And it was right over my car, like saying hi, and then it just disappeared. That's all I got, right? I didn't try to project anything else onto it, right? This wasn't the eye of God in a triangle. This was just the triangle, right? So that's it. That's all I had. Now, can I use that? Is anybody interested? No, it's not enough there.

• 43:58Mayim Bialik?

  Here's why I'm interested. First of all, you know, and this is one of the things, again, I'm just playing sort of the skeptic here. People will be like, "Well, what Peter's not telling us is that he was on acid," right? And I'm assuming you're going to say like, "No, I was not on acid." Well, maybe Peter was sleep deprived and you're going to tell me I wasn't sleep deprived. So I'm going to go with, "You're not sleep deprived. You're not on acid. You're not drunk. You're not in some sort of altered state," right?

• 44:23Speaker 00

  Right.

• 44:23Mayim Bialik?

  Is it possible that the work that you do, the things that you create, the things that you think about, the things that you study, the circles that you... Revolve in if we believe that, which I think, you know, many of us here do, that we are all existing in a field of consciousness, right? There's some interconnection that occurs between all beings on this planet and in the universe, right? Is it possible that your energy somehow summoned this? Is it possible that you're connected to something that encouraged you to have this experience

• 45:05Mayim Bialik?

  in the same way that people like Chris Bledsoe say that they can summon these things with their energetic and psychological connections to things?

• 45:17Speaker 00

  But haven't you just now completely described the UFO phenomenon? You've given a workable hypothesis that it's not just in my case, it's the case of everybody. We're all in it together. We are all summoning these things. And how does that process really work? Because a lot of the words you used in there really need definition, don't they? Right? I mean, you summoned it because of the circles you work in, because of what you've studied, et cetera, et cetera. Okay, let's unpack all of that. Does that mean that our culture has predisposed us towards this?

• 45:52Mayim Bialik?

  I believe that it has predisposed certain people. I believe even that this guy who's, you know, acting like he's listening so patiently, he has an understanding of things that I don't in the energetic realms, in, you know, even psychological realms, right?

• 46:07Jonathan Cohen?

  I've never seen an alien.

• 46:09Mayim Bialik?

  No, you've not, but you know what? If we do enough of these episodes, maybe you'll get one. But I do believe that not everyone has this ability. I do believe that there are certain people who are placed here to not believe this, meaning it takes all kinds, you know, to create this world and universe that we live in. But I think that we're kind of reaching a tipping point where we can't keep pretending like all of these people are just crazy. There's something happening that people are trying to articulate in a very deep and meaningful way. You know, you call it this phenomenon, which I actually think is a much sort of more accessible

• 46:51Mayim Bialik?

  term for a lot of people as opposed to having conversations with aliens abducted me. That doesn't make sense to a lot of people. But this notion that there are some people who may be tuning into a frequency, right? That other people like, I don't have that on my radio. I don't have that frequency.

• 47:08Jonathan Cohen?

  Not yet.

• 47:09Mayim Bialik?

  Well, so can you grow those abilities? That's a different conversation. We talked to a lot of people who are kind of teaching us how to do that. But much in my piano example, like I'm a good pianist. I will never be a concert level pianist. That's not like, there's a ceiling effect, I think, for some people spiritually.

• 47:26Jonathan Cohen?

  Maybe you'll see straggler aliens, not in the nicest spaceship.

• 47:30Mayim Bialik?

  Right. I'll just see the shadows. Ooh.

• 47:33Jonathan Cohen?

  Obviously, there isn't irrefutable data for what I'm about to ask, but based on the research that you've done, in your own hypotheses, why the assassinations? What motivation can you prescribe to how these events have unfolded with these synchronicities? Like, why?

• 47:58Speaker 00

  If we say this was not the result, these assassinations are not the result of of people conspiring to do this. Although there's obviously conspiracies. I mean, John Wilkes Booth was in a conspiracy, right? His co-conspirators, they were all hanged. Oswald most likely was. Even Congress in the seventies came up with this statement that, yes, he probably died as a real, was a result of a conspiracy. So these conspiracies happen, but there's a level or a layer beyond that or underneath it that links all of these things together, that makes it easier, that makes these things happen, that gives it the fluidity it needs across time, across space to make sure that this happens. And what is that then?

• 48:42Speaker 00

  If this is part of the control system, as Valet would put it, then it's kind of insidious, at least from our perspective, or the perspective of progressive, you know, of a progressive liberal Democrat perspective, these are, these are insidious. From another perspective, you know, from an extreme conservative point of view, maybe these were all good things.

• 49:04Mayim Bialik?

  That's the thing. A lot of this is sort of like, it's arbitrary in the universe, right? Like, there's not really, I mean, the concepts of good and evil, like even those are sort of, I mean, like, I know where I stand, I'm pretty clear, but this to me doesn't necessarily have to be phenomenon related, but it could be occult related. There could be forces that people are summoning that have a particular political bent.

• 49:32Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, I'll throw one other idea in the mix here, which is that the force may not be independently operating in and of itself, but a reflection of the larger consciousness, attitude, belief system, desires and wishes of the collective. Therefore, these large pushes towards a liberal bend get met with a lot of resistance to people who do not want to see things change because change evokes fear. Fear evokes anger. Anger evokes response. And therefore, these forces could be hearing that and creating action.

• 50:15Mayim Bialik?

  We spoke to John Atack, who talks about the occult connections between the Nazi party, between even Scientology. I mean, it's, it's out there, I'm just gonna say it, but I think the notion that there may be certain group, and, and we have this documented, there's certain aspects of this that we know are true. There may be certain groups that are using techniques such as, you know, trying to contact the other side, like, I don't know what it is, but we know that there are certain political and religious groups that are tapping into that. So the fact that we might try and exclude the United States government from that is

• 50:58Mayim Bialik?

  actually absurd because it could be that there are people in our very own government who are looking to tap into whatever that darkness is to move forward their own politics.

• 51:12Speaker 00

  Well, that's the whole story of the Collins elite, right? That's come up a number of times. I don't know if you've discussed it, but this idea that there is a group within the government that was trying to imitate, you know, occult rituals or were involved with occult practices to see if they could basically do the Chris Bledsoe thing, right? If they could summon UFOs, if they, you know, if the UFOs were evil, if they were, you know, if they were occult forces that could be manipulated. So you had that, but you also, since you bring up Nazis, I'm sort of honor bound now to mention that I wrote three books on this subject. And, you know, the first one dealing with specifically that context was there an occult Nazi connection, and there was with, with the SS for the most part.

• 51:56Speaker 00

  And yeah, you know, Wavelsburg Castle and, you know, the idea of creating a Knights of the Round Table for the Nazi elite or the SS elite that would meet there and have séances and contact the souls of dead Teutonic leaders or something, all this stuff. And then you had, of course, the Frankfurt School or the, you know, you had Walter Benjamin talking about, you had Adorno, Theodore Adorno saying that there, you know, the steps towards fascism include a belief in occultism, right? Because there's this idea that occultism believes in sinister forces. Occultism believes in hidden forces in nature and all of this, this is conspiratorial paranoid

• 52:40Speaker 00

  perception of the world. So all of these things can be lumped together, you know, and provide a framework for people and has, have provided frameworks for people. We think of Julius Evola, for instance, the, the famous Italian fascist philosopher who worked with the SS and who, you know, claimed he was never a Nazi or a fascist, but that at the same time, he admired the SS. He thought the SS was great, you know? So you have people who write occult stuff who then long for, as they say in anthropological circles, in elotempore, right? They long for this, this forgotten time, this ancient time when everything was great.

• 53:20Speaker 00

  And now the world is a mess because of all sorts of, of evil degradation and it's been, you know, racial miscegenation and all kinds of other stuff. We have to get back to the, to the good old religion, which was some ancient concept that no one's ever been able to prove. So you have this. This, this constant yearning for creating that space. And well, we have to do all these necessary things. We have to do the hard stuff because, you know, the liberals won't do it. So we need people who are going to do the hard things and get rid of all the people we don't like. And therefore we can create our society.

• 53:54Mayim Bialik?

  I hate to say it, but like we, we hear it. We hear it in a lot of the rhetoric now, you know, especially when we look at an aging Congress. Right? Like literally a population of, of Congress on both sides of the aisle that are really from another time, right? It's a different vernacular of how we understand the world. I mean, I, I think we're, we're kind of still seeing it. Some of the, the extensive research that, you know, your, your, your career includes does involve a lot about the Nazi government. And, you know, when I was looking at Valerie's research, you know, I, I couldn't help but notice that, you know, and these are things that I sort of leave on the fringes of my brain and experience

• 54:39Mayim Bialik?

  just because my, um, you know, my own life and studies have taken me in a different direction for this era of history. The notion that Hitler might not have committed suicide in that bunker is something that, you know, I vaguely heard tossed around. But as I said, it hasn't been the, the focus of the emphasis of my study. But I started reading this research and there's a lot of things that are suspicious. And it's not something that, you know, we usually think to talk about. But I would love for you to educate us on some of the legitimate concerns about the narrative that, that we were told about essentially the end of World War II.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  In the beginning, Hitler committed suicide in the bunker. It was April 30th, 1945. We all know the story. And I'm kind of invested in that date because that was Valpurgis Nacht. That was a very famous holiday, like Halloween in Germany. For him to have committed suicide on that day was just perfect. So when I first started doing this research for my first book on Holy Alliance, I was totally, that, that's what happened. Then I'm in school, I'm, I'm taking a semester in Indonesia, uh, getting my, my, my graduate degree in religious studies and I spent three months in, in Jogjakarta. And as I'm there, you know, I had been to Indonesia before, but now I'm really immersed in, in it. I'm starting to hear these stories.

• 56:05Speaker 00

  Oh, you know, Hitler escaped at the end of the war. And I'm thinking, yeah, okay, fine. Oh, no, no, really, he escaped and, you know, they have his diary and they have documents and he's buried here in Indonesia, in Surabaya. And I'm thinking, what? And then they start showing me these articles and stuff and I'm looking at them thinking, this is, you know, this is just conspiracy theory. Until I see copies of, of this document, which is definitely really written in German. In some cases it's written in an old fashioned shorthand. And I'm looking at this and I'm thinking, wait a minute, who is this guy? And they give the name and the, and this, and there's a whole bunch of testimony. And I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to have to sit back and, and take a look at this when I get back to the States.

• 56:49Speaker 00

  I'm going to start doing some research in this. And it turns out, yeah, basically the only information we have about Hitler's suicide in the bunker comes from the Soviets. Because they were the ones who were the first ones to get to Berlin. We let them get into Berlin first. They had lost 20 million lives fighting World War II. They get into Berlin, they get to the bunker, they get to the Reich Chancellery and they find bones and, you know, in a kind of makeshift crematory outside the bunker where evidently Hitler and Eva Braun had been burned. Their bodies had been burned. But if you know anything about crematory, you need a lot of heat and a lot of sustained effort.

• 57:31Speaker 00

  And they didn't have much beyond some kerosene, they would have matched and whatever. So there was a lot of material left, including dental material. Hitler famously only had a couple of teeth, but he had dentures that were made. Eva Braun likewise.

• 57:47Mayim Bialik?

  Hitler and Eva Braun had an extra set of dentures made, which doesn't seem to be what I would do in 1945 if I were Hitler. There was a lot of other things he could have been doing. He had an extra set of teeth made.

• 58:01Speaker 00

  A month before the fall of Berlin. So

• 58:04Mayim Bialik?

  That's crazy.

• 58:05Speaker 00

  The bombs are dropping.

• 58:06Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 58:06Speaker 00

  They go to a dentist, they get two sets made each. They got the dentist, they got his files matched, right? Two sets of dentures. He says, I made two each. Why would you do that unless you were going to plant one and keep the others, right?

• 58:18Mayim Bialik?

  There's a lot of other weird reasons people make teeth, but during the war that you fucking started.

• 58:25Jonathan Cohen?

  You may think the war is ending badly and you're not going to be able to get to your dentist.

• 58:30Speaker 00

  Right, there you go.

• 58:31Mayim Bialik?

  This is a macabre sense of humor that I have. That would be the greatest explanation is Hitler's like, I'm going to survive, but shit's going to be really a mess in this city.

• 58:40Jonathan Cohen?

  And I don't trust any other dentist but this guy.

• 58:43Speaker 00

  Or maybe he's the only, he's, he's alive now. He may not be in a week. No, but, but it's true. Okay, that, that's, that's only one of the many cases. Now, I happen to have known somebody who was the state archaeologist for the state of Connecticut. On a kind of official position, I was, I had contacted him years earlier on a different case. And I found out that he had gone to Moscow after the fall of the Soviet Union, had gone to the KGB, former KGB headquarters where they had, what they said was Hitler's skull in a box that they had taken from the, from the bunker. And he went and he managed to take a look at the skull. And he looked at it, he just didn't take him long.

• 59:27Speaker 00

  He says, that's, that's not Hitler, obviously. It's not even a man. It's a woman's skull. There's a bullet in it, a bullet hole for sure, but like in the top of the head. And I think from what he understood, from what I understood, from what he said, he managed to secrete a small piece of the skull and take it with him back to the States, where he did DNA analysis and yeah, no, it wasn't Hitler and it wasn't Eva Braun. They found a skull someplace. And then the story comes out. The Soviets took the remains of what they thought was Hitler, Eva Braun, and Goebbels and the entire Goebbels family, including their dog. And they had all this cremains and they're burying it in various places for like a week or so. The KGB or the Smersh, I guess.

• 1:00:12Speaker 00

  And they're digging it up again, burying it someplace else, digging it up again, burying it someplace else. They finally buried it still in Germany, at, at the side, in the East German side of their, their KGB headquarters in East Germany, in a parking lot, underneath the parking lot.

• 1:00:30Mayim Bialik?

  What's the motivation for burying scattered remains of Hitler?

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  They didn't know what to do with it.

• 1:00:37Mayim Bialik?

  And they didn't want it to become some sort of shrine, maybe? I don't know.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent. They did not want that to happen, for sure. But at the same time, why just not throw it away, right? Why, why even, or just bring it to Moscow? Put it in a vault, right? Like, like, you know, Raiders of the Lost Ark, you know, in the warehouse, just have a big warehouse, big box of, you know, Nazi remains. No, they didn't do any of that. They put it in the ground. This is according to the Soviet Union's own archives, which were published in English, right? So you can find it, you can read it, you can see the unbelievable stuff yourself. So Andrew Poff, former head of KGB, then decides at the last minute, uh, in the 19, the late 1960s, was it? He says, okay, we got to dig this up and get rid of it. So he told them to go and dig it up.

• 1:01:25Speaker 00

  They dug up the remains, they pulverized them some more and they cast them into a river, never to be seen again. But somehow some kind of skull winds up in KGB headquarters. We don't know where that came from.

• 1:01:35Mayim Bialik?

  No.

• 1:01:36Speaker 00

  So the whole story seems pretty bogus. Then you match the eyewitness testimony that the Soviets had of their captured prisoners from the bunker with the British testimony of their captured prisoners, with the American testimony of their captured prisoners. Everybody tells a different story as to what happened to Hitler.

• 1:01:56Mayim Bialik?

  How many people were found in this bunker?

• 1:01:58Speaker 00

  Well, enough. Some were found in the bunker when the, when the Russians came in. Others were just trapped in Berlin and they had been people who had been in the bunker, right? They knew their names, their ranks, and they had been part of the, the staff around Hitler at the bunker. So they had, they had enough. They had two or three, the Soviets had, the Brits had two or three. I think we had one or two. So altogether fewer than 10, but none of the stories matched, right? They were all different in details. One said Hitler shot himself, one said he took suicide pills. All different kinds of stories. None of it made sense, none of it was consistent. Different times, different situations. One said that it was Martin Bormann who had gone in and shot both of them. That was one story. And so I'm digging through all of this and I find out one of the last people to leave

• 1:02:43Speaker 00

  the bunker, one of the very last people, was a guy called Walter Havel. And Walter Havel was a strange guy. He was in the bunker like to the end, to the very end, the one of the last people to leave. And Havel had marched with Hitler during the Beer Hall Putsch in 1923. So he was an old Nazi, I mean, he was from the beginning. He was in prison because of it in Munich. And then they let him out. He was in England for a while. And then where does he wind up for most of his life between the wars? In Indonesia. And he's in Indonesia, basically jump-starting the Nazi Party in Indonesia. And we have photographs of the Nazi Parties in Jakarta, in different cities around the northern, mostly the northern part of Indonesia, there were Nazi Parties, you know, actual

• 1:03:28Speaker 00

  Nazi Parties. Eventually, 1933 Hitler comes to power. He wants his buddy Walter to come back. So Walter reluctantly, I imagine, leaves Indonesia, goes into Germany where he's, you know, toasted and he's praised. They call him Surabaya Wali. Surabaya is the name of a big city in northern Indonesia, where this fake Hitler guy is currently buried. So he's, he's wined and dined, he has all these great stories about Indonesia, about the tea plantations, about life in the villages, life in the cities, the Nazi Parties there. Hitler just keeps him around for laughs.

• 1:04:06Mayim Bialik?

  They said that he was able to stay awake during Hitler's long diatribes where most people fell asleep. That's literally what they said about him.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  Yep. So, Surabaya Wali is one of the last people to leave. So he leaves Berlin at the end. They claim he committed suicide. They don't have a body, right? They claim he died in Berlin. They claim they know where and everything, but the place was bombed, so there's no real proof. The same way they claim, you know, Martin Bormann had died in Berlin, that was a very murky situation as well. But now we have, just a few days before the fall of Berlin, we have one of his, one of Hitler's favorite pilots, flies into Berlin. As Berlin is being bombed, she doesn't care. Hannah writes, she parks her plane outside the Chancellery.

• 1:04:51Mayim Bialik?

  A lady pilot?

• 1:04:52Speaker 00

  A lady pilot. And they hang out and stuff, and then she gets in her plane, according to the story, and flies out, just a few days before the fall of Berlin, when they said it was impossible to fly into Berlin.

• 1:05:03Mayim Bialik?

  He could have been on that plane.

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  He could have been on the plane. Right? Exactly.

• 1:05:08Mayim Bialik?

  Do you get what's happening? He could have been on that plane.

• 1:05:11Speaker 00

  I prefer to think he died in the freaking bunker, like he was supposed to. But there was so much evidence to the contrary. The Soviets, I mean, Stalin famously didn't believe that Hitler was dead. He told Roosevelt, you know, I think that guy is still alive. And J. Edgar Hoover, for years after the end of World War II, had his agents collecting information on Hitler sightings in South America. Would I have gone to South America if I was Hitler? I don't know. There's a problem with that story. And that is that, well, look what happened to Eichmann, right? Look what happened to a lot of Nazis who were being rounded up here and there, they were being outed everywhere.

• 1:05:56Speaker 00

  Wouldn't anybody willing to, would be willing to turn in Hitler? Drop a dime on him just to save their life if it meant that, look, and I've got the, I know where Hitler is? But if Hitler had gone to Indonesia, no one would have known. The only guy who would have known would have been his good friend, Surabaya Wali. It kind of makes sense he would have gone, no one would have looked there. It would be the last place anybody would have looked, right? There was virtually no American intelligence presence there. We had a kind of an OSS operation in Southeast Asia, but it was very small. It was mostly concerned with the Japanese, not with, you know, escaped Nazis. But as it turns out, there was submarine traffic into Indonesia from Nazi Germany

• 1:06:38Speaker 00

  throughout the war, because we wanted raw materials and we shipped them munitions. We shipped them a Messerschmitt plane, broken down in boxes in one submarine that was, that was captured at the end of the war. And there was uranium in that submarine that was captured at the end of the war, and that was destined for Indonesia. They were, they were trying to send stuff to Japan to continue the war against the United States and the Allies. So they were sending technicians, they were sending gold bullion, they were sending uranium to build potentially a bomb. We captured that submarine, that's a matter of public record. So all of this was going on, we had submarine traffic to Indonesia, anything could have happened. It suddenly became to me a possibility.

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  This is a possibility, I had to look at it as maybe this really happened. And I did manage to find and actually see physically the diary that was believed to have been the diary of Hitler. I would have to say, I'm pretty sure it's not. But it is the diary of a wanted war criminal, somebody we were looking for after the war and never found. And it was a guy who, if you look at his pictures, his passport photo looks pretty identical to Hitler's old wartime photos from World War I. The guys were virtually identical, born in the same year, both from Austria, I mean, dead wringers at that time, anyway. And he was married to a blonde woman, right? Who looked kind of like Eva Braun.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  So I could see where people would have been confused, and maybe that was a deliberate thing. But that opens up another can of worms, because that opens up a can of worms into 1965, and the year of living dangerously in Indonesia, and the overthrow of Sukarno orchestrated at least in part by CIA, but also by the West German Embassy and Consular Staff in Indonesia, which was staffed almost exclusively by former Nazis.

• 1:08:33Mayim Bialik?

  Nope, none of this feels like a overlapping diagram that I want to be part of.

• 1:08:37Speaker 00

  I was wading through that in the last few years, and believe me, it's, it got scarier and scarier, because the more that was declassified about the West Germans and their influence in Indonesia. Halmar Schacht, who was Hitler's finance minister, meeting with Sukarno, trying to get him to create a buffer between China and the rest of Asia by using Islam as the excuse, by making a religious war against communism, on and on, telling him how to set up his, his finances, to create a World Bank of his own, that would operate against the IMF and the World Bank, to be a third kind of, a third way kind of an approach,

• 1:09:19Speaker 00

  countries that were non-aligned with either China, Russia, or the United States would have, you know, their own bank and their own monetary fund. So he was doing that. And we found out during the Clinton administration that 40 tons of Nazi gold was shipped to Macau in the late 1950s. 20 tons stayed in China, the other 20 tons went to Jakarta. We don't know what that was financing back then, but it looks like it was financing something that was going to be called the Revolutionary Fund, which was going to help Sukarno jump-start this anti-American, anti-Russian banking system.

• 1:09:56Mayim Bialik?

  If nothing else, it's, it's very muddy. There is so much more to discuss with Peter Levenda. We're going to hit pause here on our conversation. We have a part two to this conversation that gets into MKUltra, Project Bluebird, all of the government manipulation, the role of the CIA, the role of the KGB, as well as all of the theories about the end of World War II. Was Hitler in the bunker? Is it possible that he escaped to Indonesia? Something I had never thought about before, that we're going to talk about in part two.

• 1:10:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Make sure you're subscribed to the channel. Click the notification for this episode to drop. You do not want to miss it.

• 1:10:37Mayim Bialik?

  From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

• 1:10:40Speaker 06

  It's my Empiolics Breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. And now she's gonna break down, so break down, she's gonna break it down.