Some Psychic Abilities Are Dangerous: Aliens, Telepathy & Discovering Your Gifts | Dr. Dean Radin

What if telepathy, precognition, remote viewing, psychic abilities, and even “magic” are real, but science has been looking at them the wrong way? Could human consciousness actually be connected across space and time? Could your brain and body be responding to information from the future without you consciously knowing it? In this episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown, Dr. Dean Radin, Chief Scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences (IONS) & Cofounder of neuroengineering company Cognigenics, explores some of the biggest questions at the intersection of consciousness, quantum physics, parapsychology, psychic phenomena, telepathy, precognition, remote viewing, and the nature of reality. Dr. Radin explains what Noetic science actually is and why decades of research into “paranormal” phenomena continue to challenge conventional scientific assumptions. He explores evidence suggesting that human consciousness may influence quantum reality and whether the relationship between mind and matter could help explain phenomena like prayer. Why can’t psychics use their abilities to win the lottery? If precognition exists, is the future actually fixed, or are we simply sensing probabilities? And when you have a powerful intuition or premonition, are you predicting the future, or accidentally manifesting your own fears? We also dive into the mystery of telepathy, tracing the history of scientific telepathy experiments and how researchers have attempted to test them over the years. What blocks psychic intuition in the first place? Could constant stimulation, distraction, technology, and the noise of the outside world be preventing us from accessing subtle information? Are humans already responding physiologically to “nonlocal” information without consciously realizing it? Dr. Radin also discusses why AI may be biased against conclusions that validate paranormal phenomena, and the strange history of how Western civilization went from believing in magic to rejecting it, a transformation sometimes described as the “disenchantment of the world.” From his perspective as a scientist, what would it take to make paranormal phenomena more scientifically acceptable to study? We examine one of the biggest problems in parapsychology: reproducibility. Why are paranormal laboratory results so difficult to replicate? Are the phenomena themselves variable, or are traditional scientific methods running into fundamental boundaries when applied to consciousness? We explore government research into remote viewing - including how Dr. Radin's interest in the paranormal was influenced by research connected to the U. S. government's Stargate program - and tackle one of the most controversial questions surrounding modern paranormal experiences: Why do certain people seem able to encounter or summon orbs or nonhuman intelligence (NHI), while others never experience anything at all? Dr. Radin shares his thoughts on people such as Chris Bledsoe, who have reported extraordinary encounters with orbs and NHI, and explores why fear may play a major role in determining who can or can't experience these phenomena. He also recounts a deeply personal childhood experience on Iroquois land, when he saw what appeared to be a thunderbird. Could that strange encounter have somehow foreshadowed his eventual career investigating consciousness and the paranormal? We unpack the Global Consciousness Project and its investigation into whether human consciousness may exhibit measurable connectivity on a global scale. Could this research provide clues about the deeper relationship between mind, matter, interconnectedness, and prayer? And perhaps the most futuristic question of all: Could we genetically engineer someone to become psychic? Could future biotechnology enhance sensitivity to psychic phenomena, or even suppress that sensitivity if it proves psychologically harmful? Ultimately, Dr. Radin asks us to reconsider one of the most fundamental assumptions of modern science: Is consciousness simply something produced by the brain, or is consciousness actually permeating the fabric of reality itself? If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NOCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started: https://learn.nocd.com/BREAKStart your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR with code BREAK at https://mudwtr.com/BREAK! #mudwtrpodGo to https://helixsleep.com/breakdown to receive 20% off your Helix mattress. Visithttps://drinkag1.com/BREAKDOWN http://drinkag1.com/BREAKDOWN and for a limited time, get a free Immune Support Bundle, including a bottle of Omega-3 fish oil and a bottle of Vitamin D3K2, with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro. Find the fall pieces you’ll reach for most at Quince. Go to https://www.quince.com/breakdownfor free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Upgrade your kitchen with Our Place today. Visit http://fromourplace.com/BREAK and use code BREAK for 10% off sitewide. Learn more about Dr. Dean Radin and his work: https://www.deanradin.com/Learn more about IONS: https://noetic.org/breakdown/IONS' YT: @instituteofnoeticsciencesIONS free live webinars: https://noetic.org/experience/connect... IONS peer-reviewed papers: https://noetic.org/science/publications/Participate in IONS research: https://noetic.org/science/participat... 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Everything that we know in science today at one point was considered to be magical.

• 0:04Mayim Bialik?

  People claim that they are receiving downloads from non-human intelligence.

• 0:09Speaker 00

  Look at the magical traditions: conjuring, invocation, convocation. That's been around forever. Most of the remote viewers that I know have described episodes where they weren't trying to contact non-human intelligence, but they would just show up. It happens a lot.

• 0:25Mayim Bialik?

  What?

• 0:27Speaker 00

  There's a fabric of reality that connects everything, not just connected through space, but connected through time. The question of how do I become more psychic comes up a lot. My usual response is, are you sure you want to do that?

• 0:40Mayim Bialik?

  Dr. Dean Radin is the chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, examining psych phenomena, telepathy, intuition, and the very real possibility that everything in the world is connected.

• 0:52Speaker 00

  Stargate was two parts. I was on the research side. Our mission was, is remote viewing a real thing? Can we identify people who are really good at it? Mystics will talk about this stuff, but once I started working on this in a laboratory, my belief system has changed. I had the opportunity of seeing people who were exceptionally talented describe in great gory detail what was happening on the other side of the planet and be correct.

• 1:14Mayim Bialik?

  That's the genetic study to do. What's going on?

• 1:18Speaker 00

  Would it be possible to genetically edit a human temporarily and turn them into a psychically talented person?

• 1:25Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan is offering me up as a candidate.

• 1:31Speaker 02

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• 2:02Speaker 03

  Hey, guys, I'm Hoda Kotb. Look, I know how busy life can get, and sometimes we all just need a moment to pause and connect. Well, that's what my podcast, Making Space, is all about. Real conversations with people who've learned how to live with purpose and heart. Think authors, thought leaders, actors, performers. And every time, I walk away with something that changes how I see the world. And I think you will, too. Join me for Making Space every week, wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:37Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iain Viallick.

• 2:38Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 2:39Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to Our Breakdown. Today, we're going to be speaking to Dr. Dean Radin. He is the chief scientist at the Institute of Noetic Sciences. This is the place where the research is being done into psychic phenomena, telepathy, intuition, magic, the possibility that everything in the world is connected, and that science actually can examine it in ways that touch the spiritual, the mystical, ancient texts, and the way that we live today. For those of you who think that there are really only two choices, being a materialist or believing in everything out there, Dr. Radin is here to explain the middle path.

• 3:23Mayim Bialik?

  There is a science, there is a way to study all of the paranormal things that we love to talk about here, but he grounds it in a way that will give you the confidence to believe that you can absolutely grow your intuition, understand the world, and feel more connected to it. It's an enormously, enormously fun and interesting conversation. What a pleasure to welcome to The Breakdown Dr. Dean Radin.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  Break it down. Thank you. Happy to be here.

• 3:54Mayim Bialik?

  We're very excited to talk to you. The science of magic, how the mind weaves the fabric of reality, is a terrific starting point, kind of, I think, for anyone who's curious about any aspect of parapsychology or paranormal things, supernormal things, as we might call them. I wonder if you can start by, we spoke to Dr. Wabe, who was a fantastic resource for us. I wonder if you can tell us in your own words what the noetic sciences are?

• 4:26Speaker 00

  Well, the word noetic, I think William James popularized it way back when, and it refers to deep forms of intuition that carry a sense of certainty that the information received is correct. So like any form of intuition, you get information, you don't know where it comes from, but nevertheless, it feels correct. And more often than not, you can check the information and it turns out to be correct. So in cases where it's forgotten knowledge, that's not so interesting. In cases where it's something that you had no information about beforehand, like a precognition of something that was unexpected, that then becomes a lot more interesting.

• 5:09Jonathan Cohen?

  Precognition is an interesting area to explore because, as you said, it's something that you would not have otherwise had knowledge about. And I think a lot of people in our audience particularly are interested in, is that possible? Am I, and if so, how do I develop a skill set that could be interesting to find world disasters, but also, like, how do I help myself? You know, it's like, there seems to be two streams in this.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the question of how do I become more psychic comes up a lot. And so my usual response on that is, are you sure you want to do that? And so the reason I say that is because I often get emails from people who are disturbed by uncontrolled psychic ability. So they get precognitions, they get telepathy, they get all kinds of information. And if it's uncontrolled, meaning that they can't control when they get it versus not, that can easily drive them crazy. And so the messages I'm getting is, how can I, I need to stop this now. So there's a downside to being too open. And a case can be made that, from an evolutionary point of view, yes, it's really good if

• 6:24Speaker 00

  you can get information that will save your life, but it's not so good if you're getting all telepathic connections with your neighbors all the time. That's not going to help so much.

• 6:35Speaker 00

  So then the question is, well, how can you train that? Well, there's a bunch of tips and tricks that can be used, like learn to meditate. That'll help a lot.

• 6:46Speaker 00

  But there's also the element of talent. And so can you train talent? Probably not. A large chunk of it is going to be genetic, and a large chunk will be whatever your family allowed you to believe or express. So people can train to whatever their asymptote is. They can train up to a certain level. Beyond that, it's very, very difficult to get any better. And so when you look at people who are naturally highly talented in these areas, maybe 1 in 1,000 people fit that category, which doesn't sound like very much, but, I mean, considering 8 billion people on the planet, that's a lot of people.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  So how can, so, yeah, so is it useful to become sensitive to things that could actually affect your life or the lives of other people that you care about? Yeah. And so easiest way to do that is through meditation.

• 7:45Jonathan Cohen?

  And if I'm separating these fields again, if we remove the, I want to have precognitive experiences and see-world events, and just, I want to develop an inner guidance, I think that's where a lot of people are. Can you talk about normalizing what the possibilities are for people to utilize this in their life? Meaning, like, you described, if we grow up in an environment where we're not even allowed to imagine that this exists, that could be a huge stumbling block to even opening up the capability.

• 8:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, what also is a block is going through the academic process for 20-plus years because it creates a constraint on your worldview. So it takes a while to get over that or get through that because that worldview is perfectly fine for some things, it just doesn't, it doesn't cover the entire reality that we live in.

• 8:42Speaker 00

  So what would somebody do then? Well, taking a psychedelic will do it. Under the right circumstances, it'll blow your mind open and open the doors of perception. And we know many cases now of people who are hardcore materialists, scientists generally, who had a single experience and then changed, like flipped overnight into a different type of person. And they become much more interested in and also will experience more of these kinds of phenomena, simply because their belief structure has changed, or at least has loosened up. One of the reasons I got interested in magic is because magic, first of all, is a placeholder

• 9:26Speaker 00

  word for we don't exactly know what's going on, but there seems to be something there. And that has been true throughout all of our history. Everything that we know in science today, at one point or another, was considered to be magical. So we're slowly moving in a direction where what we used to call magic, I would now call mostly various kinds of psychic phenomena. And so very slowly, first gaining empirical evidence that the phenomena are real, and then second, getting ideas about why it's real from a scientific perspective. That is accelerating. That has been a very slow process, but it's been accelerating a lot over the past 30 years or so.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  Now, that doesn't exactly answer your question, but it's wrapped into the general notion of if you and especially culture supports your beliefs about these phenomena, they are simply there. And they've always been there. It's just that we're also very effective at cutting it down, or at least blocking it.

• 10:28Mayim Bialik?

  When we talked to Dr. Wabe, you know, she spoke about, you know, having this very kind of normalized experience of seeing people in her family who were trans channelers. And she didn't think of it as odd. It's just sort of like, what happened? And as she got older, she realized, oh, there's something here that's very outside of the norm. And, you know, some of the studies that have been done, both through your work and other, you know, associated work, is trying to look at things that, you know, for, in some cases, thousands of years, we thought was folklore, witchcraft, right? All of these things.

• 11:09Mayim Bialik?

  You know, one of the examples that Jonathan and I were talking about was this, the second site, which seems to run in families. And it's, you know, one of these things in the mysteries of the Scottish Highlands, right? There's all these sort of beautiful practices and it's a very artistic community. And it's sort of known that certain things run in families, right? So we've talked about this here as well. I'm Hungarian, I'm part Hungarian. And it's like every Hungarian person I've ever met is like, oh yeah, we have magic, right? And it's like, yeah, my grandma had like stuff, my mom, like, there's all these like interesting things. But I wonder if you can kind of give us a framework. When did that not become the way that we sort of see the world?

• 11:52Mayim Bialik?

  Is this like, oh, the Industrial Revolution? Is it Enlightenment? When did we switch? And what were the benefits, right, of shifting out of that? And what was lost?

• 12:03Speaker 00

  Yes, this is part of the discussion of the disenchantment of the world that accelerated through the Enlightenment. And the reason why it happened historically is because at the time, the Catholic Church was probably the arbiter of truth. And the Catholic Church held on to that power quite strongly for many, many years. And then you had renegades like Galileo and his contemporaries, who were saying, well, maybe we can learn in other ways. We can take empirical approaches like Francis Bacon had suggested. And when you start doing that, you realize that there are aspects of the natural world

• 12:46Speaker 00

  that can be studied, especially through empiricism, but also through mathematics and other methods. And it began to challenge the tenants of the church. And they didn't like that. So eventually, a kind of approach occurred where because of a variety of reasons, but one of them was the Black Death, the plague had occurred. And it was killing people, it was part of the church, and killing people in royalty, and killing people everywhere. And nobody had any idea about how to stop it. That significantly changed everyone's opinion about maybe we don't really know what's going on, because I prayed really good, I thought, but apparently God doesn't care, it's just killing everyone.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  So it gave rise to the idea, well, maybe there are other ways of studying what's going on here. It took hundreds of years to get beyond the idea of things like the bad humors in the air are killing us, because that was the leading medical idea of the time. But eventually, people developed microscope and telescope and other instruments that extended our senses. And we figured out, okay, there's actually a reason why this is happening. And by the way, after the telescope, the microscope was invented roughly in the 1600s sometime, it still took something like 100 years before, while people were able to see the little animals at the microscopic scale before the germ theory was accepted.

• 14:11Speaker 00

  So even with empirical knowledge, it takes a long time for new ideas to catch on.

• 14:17Mayim Bialik?

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• 18:26Speaker 00

  Getting back to the church, the church made this rapprochement with Galileo and others. The unlucky ones were killed anyway. The lucky ones were put into house arrest for the rest of their life, but they were able to then separate the study of the physical world from the study of the spiritual world. So the church held on to anything having to do with the mind, consciousness, spirituality. The physical world, okay, you guys can go play over there and do that because it would have pragmatic value, which it did. And so you go through the Enlightenment and you find again and again, more and more cases of alchemy turning into chemistry and herbalism turning into pharmaceuticals and so on.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  And they had pragmatic value. That's the reason why it changed. And because of the pragmatic value and increasing the ability to understand the natural world, that took hold, by the way, extremely culture-bound. It took hold of the Western world's worldview. And it was so powerful, the way of manipulating the physical world, that it became the way that everyone began to think, especially in the academic world. But again, this is culture-bound. So when I've gone to India and given talks in academia there, I remember giving a talk once at the University of Allahabad in the cognitive neuroscience department. And I was talking about telepathy research.

• 19:51Speaker 00

  And so I got to the end of my talk and there were professors there and the chair of the department and a whole bunch of grad students. They said, well, you know, I'm using the same methods that you guys are using. Do you think you want to do this? I said, no. Well, why not? Well, because we know it's real, so why bother even to study it? Well, I would think that in cognitive neuroscience, you'd be interested in these kinds of phenomena given the same tools. We felt, no, it's actually not part of the discipline. It's not part of cognitive neuroscience. You would need some other kind of discipline. Well, okay, well, we'll call that psy research or parapsychology or something. No, we don't do that. We don't have a department of that. So a few things.

• 20:36Speaker 00

  One is, everyone believed that the phenomenon was real. They were all interested in it. It's not part of the discipline, so we don't study it. And so in that culture and other cultures around the world, this is not... Their concern is, well, why is it in then in the West, which we're copying Western academic structure? Why don't they study this stuff? Because they're like, well, this again, points back into a particular historical framework about how we will understand reality. So even though in India, they follow the same Western academic system, if the discipline

• 21:16Speaker 00

  doesn't accommodate these kinds of phenomena, nobody studies it, even though at home, they have a statue of Ganesha and all of the other gods and goddesses and completely believe all of it.

• 21:27Mayim Bialik?

  I think it's interesting also that we're now at a time where there's this strong desire to find scientific proof for phenomena that don't always obey, right? The rules of the scientific method. And we've spoken about this with materialists, we've spoken about it with psychics and mediums and channelers, right? There's this sort of notion that, you know, the materialist view is still, show me the proof and I want the proof in a very specific way and I want to be able to, you know, have it withstand all of the same standards that chemistry does, right? Or, you know, or a math equation.

• 22:11Mayim Bialik?

  Can you talk a little bit about some of the challenges for you of being a serious scientist and approaching these things from a serious perspective while also balancing the notion that many people dismiss this as pseudoscience?

• 22:27Speaker 00

  Yes, a very important question. And there's a kind of an irony or a paradox here in that the methods that we use to study psy phenomena are absolutely rooted in materialism. We use exactly the same methods and we do the exact same analytical approaches and the statistical analyses and so on. So all of it is very standard mainstream science. The only thing that differs is we entertain a hypothesis that is not currently popular, at least within the Western world. And so we get results that are repeatable and we use meta-analyses and we do all of the various methods that everybody else uses.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  And in many cases, we're actually leading the pack. So the development of meta-analysis, development of actually the development of the EEG in particular, and lots of other things were developed first for the study of these kinds of phenomena because we're kind of pushed in that direction to improve methodology again and again. So from a scientific perspective, the idea that these kinds of phenomena or the study of them is a pseudoscience is abjectly false, demonstrably false. It's the same epistemological approach, but we're assuming a slightly different ontology. That's the only difference. And so that, none of that is new, by the way, in science.

• 23:55Speaker 00

  The sociology of science and the history of science very clearly shows that any new idea that comes along that challenges whatever is the status quo will be rejected, especially if it's difficult to replicate the effect. Although, studies have also shown, a lot of studies, that the average effect size within the social sciences is roughly 0.2, considered a small effect size. Well, the same thing is true in a lot of different psy experiments. So this is not even different from the point of view of the magnitude of the effect. And so why is it difficult to replicate studies? Because there's not enough statistical power. That's why. And it has nothing to do with the nature of the phenomena.

• 24:40Speaker 00

  The phenomena can be evoked even with college sophomores that are unselected for any particular ability or interest. So where is the resistance? The resistance comes from being taught about materialism as the only viable ontology, and actually not just materialism, but a very constrained version of materialism, classical physics-type materialism. And so people will come out of their academic system and either never hear about these studies at all, or hear about them only from a negative perspective. And if you have no other reason to doubt that kind of information, then of course you go away thinking, well, this stuff is nonsense.

• 25:25Speaker 00

  And that is largely what is reflected in places like Wikipedia and now also reflected in virtually every AI chatbot.

• 25:34Mayim Bialik?

  What?

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I've tested this many times. So go to a chatbot and they'll say, what is the current scientific evidence for telepathy? Or something like that. And so it'll spit something back very quickly and then add on to it, but this is considered pseudoscience. And so I'll challenge it. I'll say, well, what about these studies? And what about this meta-analysis? And what about this? And what about that? So it comes away, it comes back and said, oh, I apologize. I didn't, I didn't talk about that. And so after three or four exchanges, I can get it to completely reverse its original statement by simply pointing out that I know you've read all this stuff, you've sucked up the entire internet. Well, why didn't you lead with that? And in every case, so far, it comes back with an answer.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  It says, I'm essentially, my algorithms are designed to reflect what is considered to be the mainstream point of view. And it doesn't, as I said, it doesn't take long to challenge that and say, well, you know, maybe you can consider a more neutral view. And I could do that if I had thought to ask a prompt which insisted on a neutral perspective. But people don't ask that. They just say, is telepathy real? They'll get that response.

• 26:49Jonathan Cohen?

  Based on the prompt, what is the current scientific evidence for telepathy? The answer is, there's real scientific literature on telepathy and the strongest version of the evidence is more interesting than the common, open quote, there is no evidence, close quote, summary suggests, but, and this is in bold, telepathy has not been established as scientific fact.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 27:12Jonathan Cohen?

  I was wondering if you could give us a little bit about your career arc to sort of establish your background in sharing this stuff. Like it's, you know, without really understanding, and I have it here, that you were an engineer, you had a PhD in psychology, you were at Bell Labs, you were at the Stargate Program, which has, you know, a huge history and government connections, working with government agencies as well as at Princeton's pair lab. Can you tell us a little bit about your background to establish your perspective here?

• 27:49Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, the bona fides are important in this realm, as it would be in any other. And if you did not know that I was studying psychic phenomena for most of my career and I just gave affiliations, other than maybe the Institute of Neuropsychology, where I've been for the past 25 years, you would probably not guess what it is that I've been doing because all of those are very mainstream places. And I've learned from places like Bell Labs and Princeton, I know exactly how big science works. I know it's required, I know all of it. I also know because of my work now involving genetic engineering for treatment of dementia,

• 28:31Speaker 00

  that the same level of work can get published in Nature. I have a co-author of an article in Nature, Translational Neuroscience, or Translational Medicine. So...

• 28:45Speaker 00

  So it's the topic that drives some people a little bit nutty. And what's very interesting, and I'm sure that Helena, Dr. Wabe is my colleague, that she may have talked about this, that our surveys of scientists and academics at elite universities around the world showed very clearly that people have, even scientists at those institutions, have the same kind of experiences that everyone does. And of course, the odd thing is that you mean academics and scientists are human too? Yeah, a little bit. And so they tend to have the same kind of experiences that everybody

• 29:25Speaker 00

  else does. I found this also at places within the government and at Princeton and Bell Labs and so on. There are always people there who are interested in this. There are some who are not, who may be very strongly in the other direction. There are a smaller percentage who are profoundly religious and think it's demonic or the work of the devil. So it's no different than you would find in any group, any random group of people. Same phenomena, same responses, same everything. The only difference in this case is, well, if you're trained as a conventional scientist in traditional fields, and for one reason or another, you become interested in it,

• 30:08Speaker 00

  and you start looking into it, both the literature and doing experimental work, you find, yeah, what people have been reporting for over 100 years, experimentally, turns out to be true. And it is repeatable. It's not easy to repeat, but what else is new? At the leading edge of knowledge, nothing is easy to repeat. Otherwise, it would already be well-accepted.

• 30:29Jonathan Cohen?

  It's very helpful. Can you walk us through some of the studies that have really stood out for you to change people's perspective on the nature of reality? If they're coming from a very materialist background?

• 30:44Speaker 00

  So it'll take telepathy. Telepathy, and by the way, this is true of almost every category of experimentation, where what we're interested in initially is maybe one kind of experiment that demonstrates something. But then there are conceptual replications, which become really important, because now you can say, well, we're going to look at that phenomenon using a slightly different method. And if you see pretty much the same kind of result, gives you greater confidence that the phenomenon is real. So original telepathy experiments back in the 1800s were called thought transference. And generally, you have two people, and you ask one to think of something, and then you ask the other one to say, well, what do you think they're thinking of?

• 31:25Speaker 00

  That turns out to be a really, really bad design. Because you have two people who know each other really well, they're going to have similar memories, and so you have a correlation between their memories, not because of something else. So a new design came along where you'd have a pool of images or targets of some type, and you randomly select one, so that you're not relying on the one person's memory. So you give that to the sender, and the sender then tries to send that to the receiver person, and then the receiver person draws a sketch or gives some kind of response. So that was a little bit better, a kind of experiment. But then it was found that maybe it's not so good to have them in eye shot, because

• 32:08Speaker 00

  you could have information leakage. So you can see how the methodology gets better and better over time, and people figure out, oh, you can't have any information leakage at all. It's okay if they know each other, they could even be identical twins, but they need to be separated. So the first kinds of experiments in telepathy that began to use better methodologies was with J.B. Rhine at Duke University in the 1920s through 40s and 50s. So it involved the ESP cards, which are symbols, different symbols on the cards. People would be separated in different buildings. One would look at a randomly shuffled deck and pick one card, and then the other person would have to guess it.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  That went through a whole series of developments as well, because it was initially thought that maybe somebody was cheating, because there was a confederate that was leaking the information from one building to the other. And on and on, until it got better and better and better. And the results then required statistics to know whether there were more correct answers than you would expect. But nevertheless, there was, there's a book called ESP After 60 Years, which was from 1880 to 1940, that presented all of the ESP cards that had been published to that point, hundreds of them. And the back of that book lists all of the results. So that was the

• 33:32Speaker 00

  first meta-analysis using ESP cards. So from that, that persisted up until about the 1960s, the ESP cards. One of the things about that particular test is that it is incredibly boring, which turns out to not be a really good way of testing any kind of phenomenon at all, other than extinction. So people, the younger people who came along, they're working in J.B. Rhine's lab, came up, and actually, a few others, three groups independently came up with a new way of doing the test, which is called the Gonsfeld Telepathy Test.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  The Gonsfeld is a sensory restricted environment. It's not a sensory deprivation, but an unpatterned sensory stimulus method, where you sit in a comfy chair, you put a half a ping pong ball over the eyes, you're shown, shine a red light on the eyes, and you have a white noise over the, over headphones. And you're then isolated from the rest of the world, and your brain gets starved for information very quickly. And this is based on the idea that one of the reasons that we're not psychically sensitive is because we're being overstimulated by the world itself. So you want to extract yourself from that.

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• 36:21Mayim Bialik?

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• 37:27Speaker 00

  Which, by the way, is also the same idea of why meditation is thought to work. It's getting rid of external stimulation and paying attention more to what's going on internally. So as, starting in the 1970s till now, there's around 4,700 sessions, where the person in the Gonsfeld is asked that, over a 20-minute period, somebody's going to be trying to mentally send you a picture or a video. And meanwhile, you have an isolated sender located somewhere else, who's given a randomly selected picture or a video to watch, and their job is to send that information. So after the 4,700 sessions, roughly 20 laboratories

• 38:08Speaker 00

  around the world, the odds against chance are a gazillion to one, that this is what we're seeing as a chance outcome. And from a magnitude perspective, it isn't wildly significant. With four possible targets, you'd expect chance would be 25%, and people give roughly 30 to 32% on that. But after that many trials, you can, just from the statistical power alone, you know that this is not a chance outcome. So that also went through development of better and better methods over time. And among the things that had been done was, and it was the University of Edinburgh, working

• 38:51Speaker 00

  on an automated system to do this, we had people who were professional stage magicians who were brought in, and they asked, if you wanted to fake this experiment, what would you do? And so they would talk about hidden radio receivers, and confederates, and on and on, and all kinds of signaling methods. And we did this at our institute.

• 39:13Speaker 00

  We also tested whether or not somebody in a distant room could be stamping their feet on the ground, and that could be detected as a signal. So we did very sensitive audio detection methods to see if that were true, or tapping, like little bits of tapping can can travel far distances. So we are able to exclude every known form of signaling and put the receiver into a shielded room, electromagnetically shielded room, so even radio signals would not get in there, and on and on and on. You think of every possible loophole that you can, you figure out a way to close the loophole, and you still get the same results.

• 39:51Mayim Bialik?

  So maybe you can can kind of help walk us through these implications, because I think one of the things, and you know, I didn't know that this was going to become my life, was talking to people about this. You know, people come up to me in the supermarket, like, explain this to me, like, I saw this on your podcast, like, what's going on, right? So one of the things that's true is that just because some people have these abilities, it doesn't mean that everyone has to, or that everyone can. So it's kind of like saying, if you take, I'm gonna make up numbers, but you know,

• 40:27Mayim Bialik?

  if you take a thousand people, you might find one that is at a savant level of violin ability, right? A savant level violinist. That doesn't mean that there's some like magic secret that we've inserted false hands or some probe into their brain to make them a savant. It means that there's gonna be some variability in the human brain, in the human experience, and in the interface between the environment and the template you've been given. So I think that part of the problem, and I think the irony, you know, I think is not

• 41:11Mayim Bialik?

  lost on anyone, in trying to study things that are hard to study, when we study them, you cannot apply the same standards that you would for, you know, can I throw this ping pong ball in the air and see where it lands, right? So the notion is that, and there's, and I think Dr. Wabbe talked about this as well, these kinds of studies are not trying to prove that something always happens. They're trying to show that there are some people for whom extraordinary things are possible, and there are ways to then replicate that. But in theory, we're we're kind of creating this funnel of who are the people that are

• 41:56Mayim Bialik?

  sensitive to this? So when I say to Jonathan, I don't understand when people are like, oh, I just like tune in, I get in touch with my, you know, deepest inner self, and I just like intuitively know.

• 42:07Jonathan Cohen?

  She says it like that, though.

• 42:08Mayim Bialik?

  You might as well tell me that like, you're you're teaching me how to like ferment miso, like, it's like something I know nothing about, and no matter how many times he explains to me what it's like to tune in and drop in, that's, I don't think that's what I was put here for.

• 42:28Jonathan Cohen?

  And my question is, is the reason that she feels that way because she spent too much time in academia, or is it a genetic predisposition to be very skeptical?

• 42:39Speaker 00

  Well, this skepticism is taught in academia, right? You would never accept something just because somebody said it. You wanna, you wanna test it. And after all, the, as a scientist, I can say that the motivation for what I do is partially a few experiences I've had, not very many, but it's more that, and you look at historically, you have people talking about these phenomena all the time. And so naturally, I'd say, well, I wonder if that's true. It's simply a matter of curiosity. Could that really be true? Because if it is true, it suggests that something about our worldview is missing. It's probably important to understand that.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  So you take people who describe a telepathic connection, or precognition, or whatever it happens to be, and you wonder, I wonder if that's true in principle? That's the key. I have no idea whether your anecdote is correct, there's no way to know. But you want to know, is it possible in principle that it really is information from the future? That's what we do.

• 43:42Mayim Bialik?

  In this experiment that we're talking about, where, again, it's not, it's not a ton more than chance, but it's reliably more than chance, in a way that indicates that we are able to find certain people for whom either sending or receiving or both this kind of information is somehow able to be, I'm trying to find the right word, delivered across space and time in ways that we don't understand. So if you can in layperson's terms, and like, this is really, I mean, you have such an

• 44:24Mayim Bialik?

  impressive career, you've done so many incredible things, I hate to make you explain this to me like I'm four years old, but I would like you to try and in layperson's terms, describe a possible theory for what telepathy actually could be.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  It's not easy, because there is no answer yet. The, at minimum, what it suggests is that a conventional worldview, which says that we are all separate, we're isolated from each other, we're embodied, there's no connection other than what you can touch, that is not correct. And up until about 100 years ago, there was no physical theory that would describe any of this stuff as being even plausibly true. So a lot of the skepticism today among scientists, especially ones who don't know about quantum mechanics or don't care, they would say, well, what you're describing is impossible. It could only be coincidence, or a confabulation, or, you know, it's, but it's a flaw in the

• 45:24Speaker 00

  experiment, that's the the default condition.

• 45:27Mayim Bialik?

  Right, or it's a trick, or there's some, there's some, you know, secret trickery that's going on.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  Right, it's, it could be fraudulent, yeah. So that's where the, that's the knee jerk skeptical approach. If you do know about quantum mechanics, and you understand things like entanglement, of course, nobody truly understands it, but as a phenomenon, it's at least mathematically described, and it's a real phenomenon. Then you say, well, the physical world does not prevent things from being connected at far distances, probably not through signaling, but through some form of connection that we can call a correlation. It's just stronger than than a classical correlation. If you push on that idea, it says, as has been said in the spiritual traditions forever, that we live in a holistic reality.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  There's a fabric of reality that can simply connects everything all the time, it has always been that way. It is not something that is evoked, it's something that is always there. And so the Gansfeldt experiment is important in this regard, because most of the data is college sophomores who are doing the experiment with a buddy because they get credit for their psychology course. So they may have never reported anything about telepathy, but they still get 30% on average. If you take, if you take a subset of people doing that experiment, who report that they they seem to be in telepathic connection with a loved one or something, or they have these experiences, they get way more than 30%.

• 46:58Speaker 00

  They get 45 to 50% in these experiments, which supports the idea that they actually do have some talent, they they're able to show it even under these highly controlled conditions. So what this tells us is that the notion that everything is connected all the time is probably true, and not just connected through space, but connected through time. And so the reason why not every person can demonstrate this on demand, they can demonstrate it unconsciously, but not on demand, is because we are shaped by evolution to not be able to do this in our ordinary waking state, and that, for very obvious reasons, I think.

• 47:40Mayim Bialik?

  We've spoken about this with, you know, Dr. Amir Raz, who's a neuroscientist and a mentalist, and, you know, there's kind of this notion that also, when we're talking about these kinds of abilities, that all of a sudden, if you're going to, right, engage, that these abilities have to be impermeable to any stress, to any environmental change, and this is the thing, and like, I'm still like a little bit on the fence with trying to wrap my head, right, around telepathy, but what became clear to me when listening to the telepathy tapes, is when people try and isolate, especially a vulnerable population, a non-speaking autistic individual, for example, and they say, I'm

• 48:22Mayim Bialik?

  gonna take this child away from their parent, the person who makes them feel the most safe, the person who helps them communicate function, go to the bathroom and eat, and we're gonna put them in a room, and if they can't reproduce it, it's not real. That's, first of all, inhumane, and second of all, not even appropriate science. So I think that's something also that's important to realize, that the reproducibility also has, it has boundaries around it that mean something.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Right. And so if you look at elite athletes at the Olympic level, what do they start to describe after a while as being this single most important thing? It's their mental state. It's not their physical state, they're all, they're all super athletes at that point. The thing that matters is what they believe, how they feel mentally, it's all internal stuff. And so that's an extreme example of exactly what you're talking about, that if you ask somebody to be psychic on demand, it's, other than the one in a thousand people who would somehow have it under control, most people, they don't know what to do, because our ordinary waking state has blocked it. We don't get it.

• 49:32Mayim Bialik?

  First of all, you're doing a great job at using layperson's terms to describe some very, you know, sophisticated concepts. I want to stick with connection, this notion of connection, connectivity, entanglement.

• 49:47Mayim Bialik?

  I'm finding, especially when I think about your book, I'm finding these other categories where that same notion would carry through. Precognition, yes, right? The notion that some people might get information, and again, like, I'm thinking way out there, that some people might get information about things that have yet to happen, or that have happened that they would have no other reason to know about, right? Or, as in the case of Elizabeth Krone and her precognition abilities, she sometimes is experiencing things that may not happen because they may be potentialities. I mean, I'm just like throwing it all out there.

• 50:29Mayim Bialik?

  But this would still work under this sort of hypothesis of we are all more connected than we might realize, and some people can tune that frequency knob, right, into more access to the things that connect us. Does that work for precognition the same way?

• 50:48Speaker 00

  Oh, sure, sure. I mean, there's always upsides and downsides to becoming sensitive to these things. So the downside for precognition is that everything can start looking like an omen. And there's, I mean, you can learn an internal sense of this actually does feel like a precognition versus this is my fear of what's happening. So last night, I heard owls outside, and I don't normally hear owls. And so a part of me is thinking, why am I hearing owls now? Well, I'm gonna be on a podcast tomorrow. Maybe it's telling me something.

• 51:21Jonathan Cohen?

  She loves owls.

• 51:23Mayim Bialik?

  I love owls, and I live in a canyon. I love owls until one night, I looked out the window. It terrifies me to this moment. And an owl had landed on a banister right outside the window, and I all of a sudden felt like I was looking into the face of Satan. Because this enormous, dangerous predator had landed, right? And it is a terrifying, beautiful creature. But I instantly was like, what does this mean, right? I didn't go to, that's a beautiful creature. I went to like, something bad's gonna happen, and I'm gonna Google, you know, something that an indigenous tribe has noted for thousands of years about owls,

• 52:06Mayim Bialik?

  because it has to be relevant to me, because I'm just a creature of nature.

• 52:10Speaker 00

  What comes to mind when I hear an owl is not so much what, but who. That's what they're saying, who, right? So it's the age-old question of who are you? Who? Like, who are we? That's what I'm hearing from the owl.

• 52:25Mayim Bialik?

  I'm a terrified primate. That's what I am.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Well, I don't know. I mean, they have a severe face, but it's the message that's important. So anyway, there you go. So I had a precognition of someone who was afraid of owls. And I didn't know that. Experimentally, what we can tell is that precognitions are probabilistic. Very, very rarely do we get any evidence at all that the precognized future is faded and must occur. Probably will occur, and we can see that in experiments. So that's a little bit comforting. Just an experience from my own life.

• 53:07Speaker 00

  I woke up from a dream one time that was very vivid about being in a car crash. And so in the dream, the airbag went off, and there's a bunch of dust, and there's glass flying and all of that stuff. And it kind of freaked me out, because I don't remember dreams that much often. And so I would normally drive to work in a way that was a little bit dangerous getting onto the interstate, because cars are whizzing by and they're not letting you get on. So I decided to go to a different entrance where there was a light, and then you'd be able to go onto it. So I would avoid that recognition.

• 53:39Mayim Bialik?

  I've already got chills. I don't like this.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  Yeah. So I'm waiting at the red light, and then before the light has turned, it's still red, boom, rear-ended, which had never happened before. Fortunately, it wasn't bad. The airbags didn't go off. It was just like a fender bender. But it was shocking, because I'm just waiting there and not paying attention to what's going on behind me. So then, of course, we have to go to the side, and I get the insurance information and all that. And I'm telling this to the guy at the body shop that's gonna repair my car the next day. And he said, oh, well, maybe your dream prevented you from being in a worse accident. I thought, oh, that's pretty good for a guy at a body shop,

• 54:22Speaker 00

  because he's probably right, that something needed to happen in the future. But it didn't need to be the thing that happened in the dream. Or the dream confabulated the actual future event, but just made it a lot worse in the dream, as dreams do. So that got me interested in doing experiments to see whether or not there was the future as faded or actual versus probable. And so the result of at least my experiments, showing that it is probable.

• 54:54Jonathan Cohen?

  The alternative version is you had the dream, which changed the way that you went, which caused the accident. Had you not changed and ignored the dream, you may have been in the riskier version of the interstate, but nothing would have happened.

• 55:09Mayim Bialik?

  I don't know. You could dream about an infinite number of things, and you dreamt about that. Also, sometimes mechanics are the wisest people, in my experience. I think there's something going on there.

• 55:21Speaker 00

  He immediately got it. Yeah, just right off the bat. So, yeah. And then, of course, there are other precognitive experiences like that that are much, much more dramatic. Generally, not ones that I've had, but ones that have been told to me.

• 55:36Mayim Bialik?

  I'm thinking of connection, you know, like, and I don't mean to like, come up with my own theory here. This is not what I do for a living, is come up with theory. It could be now. I don't know. I'm kind of like digging Dr. Radin's notion of like, are all of these things supporting this one notion, right, of oneness? Which is what every ancient text says. As Chase Hughes told us, the most commonly repeated phrase, right, in a variety and canvassing of ancient texts is, don't be afraid, right? And in essence, like, this notion of oneness, like, that is a safe place for psychedelic journeys. People feel this, right?

• 56:20Mayim Bialik?

  For transcendental experiences, this feeling of oneness, this feeling of being enveloped and safe and loved, right? We've spoken to people who've been, you know, reporting abduction experiences, and they're summoning this motherly feminine presence, right, that makes them feel loved and safe. Like, this is my new working theory of all of these paranormal things. Parapsychology, connection, oneness.

• 56:48Speaker 00

  And it's, of course, it's a perennial philosophy as well, which is the basis of all of the esoteric traditions. It's difficult, from a scientific perspective, to know what to do with that, because we don't know how to study holistic systems. The closest we've gone so far are things like complex systems, which are generally not necessarily completely holistic, but have so many interacting parts, that that's the only way you can study as a system, rather than an individual piece. Science evolved quickly because of studying, of taking things apart. But as it turns out, that does not give you the whole picture.

• 57:33Mayim Bialik?

  We're gonna hit pause here on our conversation with Dr. Radin. There is so much more in part two. We're gonna talk about his personal childhood encounter that made him believe that there is possibly more out there than even he understood. We'll speak about dual aspect monism, the place where philosophy and psychology and the noetic sciences intersect.

• 57:53Jonathan Cohen?

  We're also gonna talk about remote viewing and the notion that we all may be receiving information physically that we cannot process mentally, and what does that do to us?

• 58:07Mayim Bialik?

  So much more in part two of our conversation. Make sure to check us out on Substack, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.