Are You Highly Sensitive? The Neuroscience of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, 12 Signs You Might Have It and Why Logic Won’t Fix Emotional Pain.

This might be the most vulnerable episode we’ve ever recorded. No guests. No buffer. Just Mayim and Jonathan…and something we didn’t realize was quietly shaping Mayim's entire life! We’re talking about Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria (RSD) — and what started as a casual conversation turned into a full-blown personal reckoning. If you’ve ever: - Felt physical pain when you thought someone was disappointed in you - Spiraled for HOURS (or years) over one tiny mistake - Assumed you were getting fired every time your boss said, “Can we talk?” - Left parties early because you were sure you didn’t belong - Become enraged, ashamed, or devastated over something other people say “isn’t a big deal” …this is the episode to help you make it all make sense. Mayim & Jonathan break down: - Very real, very intense emotional and physical experience of RSD (the kind often associated with ADHD and neurodivergence, but not limited to it) - What’s happening in the brain - Why logic DOESN’T fix it - Overlap with perfectionism, people-pleasing, codependency, & rage - Why success, fame, or external validation doesn’t magically make it go away - Whether extreme physical training could override emotional sensitivity Mayim shares stories she's never shared before: - Why being late to meetings triggers white hot rage - Why improv makes her want to cry - Why hosting Jeopardy! didn’t protect her from feeling exposed - What it was really like making public appearances while starring on The Big Bang Theory And yes…you know they had to take a quiz. Follow along with us and share your results! This Isn’t About Being “Too Sensitive”. This is about a nervous system that experiences perceived rejection as catastrophe. For some people, it feels like: - Being punched in the chest - Not being able to breathe - Instant shame and/or rage - Total collapse of perspective And if you don’t experience this? You’ll finally understand what someone you love might be going through. The Hard Questions We Ask - Is this just low self-esteem? - Are we over-diagnosing everything? - Is this a modern luxury problem? - Does having a label help…or limit you? - Can confidence actually fix this? - What you can actually do to cope And the most important takeaway: This isn’t about weakness. It’s about perception. And perception can shift. This conversation evolved in ways we did NOT expect. It’s raw. It’s personal. It’s uncomfortable. And it might explain things in your life you’ve never had language for. If you’ve ever wondered, “Why does this hurt so much more for me than for everyone else?” Start here. Head to https://impact.ourritual.com/c/4792730/2005678/24744 , take a quick quiz, and use code BREAKER20 for 20% off your first month. Go to https://kachava.com and use the code BREAKDOWN for 15% off of your first order. Take the Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria Quiz: https://www.additudemag.com/rejection-sensitive-dysphoria-adhd-symptom-test/?srsltid=AfmBOopcRDZDw2MNc17wXUaUONbwcpsvWkAoXeD35qBG-GofcYWhcfA_ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.bialikbreakdown.com/ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/mayimbialik%E2%81%A0 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices https://megaphone.fm/adchoices See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Mayim Bialik?

  This is one of the most personal and intimate episodes we have ever done.

• 0:04Jonathan Cohen?

  Mime shares things about herself that I've never heard before.

• 0:08Mayim Bialik?

  What we're talking about today is not a diagnosis, it's a set of symptoms.

• 0:11Jonathan Cohen?

  That impact so many people shaping their experience and their perception of reality.

• 0:17Mayim Bialik?

  Have I been called overly sensitive? Do I feel anxious in social situations? Do you assume the worst in commonplace interactions? Do I consider myself a people pleaser? Do I pass up opportunities because I'm afraid I'll fail? We're talking about rejection sensitive dysphoria, a profound and deep emotional pain, often accompanied by physical pain when there is a perceived fear of rejection, disappointment, or failure. RSD commonly does impact people with ADD, ADHD, highly sensitive people, empaths, and some on the neurodivergent spectrum. There may be more going on than you realize. We're going to talk specifically about what it looks like, what's going on in the brain

• 1:00Mayim Bialik?

  when this happens, and how can we look to make this better?

• 1:10Mayim Bialik?

  Hi, I'm Iain Bialik.

• 1:11Jonathan Cohen?

  And I'm Jonathan Cohen.

• 1:12Mayim Bialik?

  And welcome to our breakdown. I would argue to say this is one of the most personal and intimate episodes we have ever done. It is just me and Jonathan here, folks.

• 1:23Jonathan Cohen?

  Mime shares things about herself that I've never heard before, aspects of her personality, she has aha moments that we've never experienced.

• 1:31Mayim Bialik?

  What we're talking about today is not a diagnosis, it's a set of symptoms that I think are interesting, but I never realized how many parts of my own life, including my life here on the podcast, have been impacted pretty significantly by this collection of symptoms.

• 1:49Jonathan Cohen?

  This episode is far more than just Mime's personal exploration. These are things that impact so many people amongst us, and They are having reactions that are shaping their experience and their perception of reality in a way that is skewed, for a lack of a better word, and people who are around them, watching them have these big emotional experiences, or limit themselves in a way that can keep them really stuck, are wondering what is going on.

• 2:20Mayim Bialik?

  What are we talking about? We're talking about rejection-sensitive dysphoria. It is a profound and deep emotional pain that is often accompanied by physical symptoms and physical pain when there is a perceived threat or a perceived fear of rejection, disappointment, or failure. We're going to talk specifically about what it looks like, what's going on in the brain when this happens, what are some case studies, and how can we look to make this better? It often occurs in those with ADHD, also in neurodivergence. You don't have to be ADHD or neurodivergent, though, to experience rejection-sensitive dysphoria. We're going to explain all about it, and there's some really fascinating insights,

• 3:05Mayim Bialik?

  which we think will be very important for you, for someone you love. This is a very interesting episode.

• 3:11Jonathan Cohen?

  Like many of the episodes, we actually also give a quiz that help you identify where you may be on the spectrum. But if you're someone like me, who heard the term rejection sensitivity disorder, and only thought about rejection as these blatant acts that could be clearly defined, you may be missing something really important, because there are so many of life's interactions that can fall into this category that you are likely not really understanding. And this episode particularly helped me understand a set of situations in my life and in Mayim's life that I never would have known fall into this area.

• 3:50Mayim Bialik?

  This is, seriously, one of the most personal episodes, and one of the most revelatory, might I add. I wasn't expecting to do this when we started this episode. It really, really evolves over the course of this conversation. So, please join us over on Substack, because we have a very special surprise bonus that Jonathan arranged that goes along with this episode, so make sure you follow us over there. Let's get into it.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Break it down.

• 4:18Mayim Bialik?

  There are some of us who experience rejection, failure, messing up as something that feels like it's out of proportion to what's actually happening. That's the kind of experience that we're focusing on when we talk about RSD. Just gonna go ahead and use that. The notion is, when you mess something up, there are people who experience that as physical pain. There are people who experience that to a level that it triggers intense shame, anxiety, rage, and maybe even aggression or self-harm.

• 4:57Jonathan Cohen?

  And what's important, if you're listening and you may not have this yourself, is to understand what someone else may be going through. You may be with someone who has this outsized reaction. And you may say to them, "It's not such a big deal. Why can't you put this in perspective?" Understanding that some people may have this type of reaction to things that you look at and say, "That's not such a big deal," can really help you better right-size their experience.

• 5:29Mayim Bialik?

  Let's get started with a definition, so people know what we're talking about. Rejection-sensitive dysphoria, it's an intense, intense, emotional response caused by the perception that you might have disappointed someone, failed, been rejected. Because of that, you perceive that they will withdraw their love, you will lose their approval, you will lose their respect. So this same kind of painful reaction can also happen if you have a goal you're trying to hit and you can't meet it. So, RSD commonly does occur in people with ADHD, and it can cause extreme emotional pain.

• 6:12Mayim Bialik?

  So we're not just talking about, "I lost that job and I'm bummed out," or, "I'm an emotional person, or I'm a highly sensitive person." That's not the level we're talking about. We're talking about people for whom... They almost can create an alternate reality based on a potential disappointment, a potential rejection, or an actual one.

• 6:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Something that stood out in what you were saying is the idea that if they have a goal that they're trying to work towards, and it doesn't necessarily need to be a macro-life goal.

• 6:45Mayim Bialik?

  Right.

• 6:46Jonathan Cohen?

  That the disruption of that, or the lack of success in the way that they have imagined it, they may have a hard time reframing their current experience.

• 6:55Mayim Bialik?

  Correct.

• 6:56Jonathan Cohen?

  I'll give an example.

• 6:57Mayim Bialik?

  Please do.

• 6:58Jonathan Cohen?

  It could be that you want to get somewhere specifically on time, and that could influence you to have a set of emotions. It may be outsized. And I'm using this word "outsized" a few times because, as you've described, when we have a different timeline come in, it's like there are emotions from our past that are being channeled into that moment.

• 7:21Mayim Bialik?

  The thing about Jonathan that's interesting is that he has a way of taking things that happened in our life and pretending like he's not making them the topic of a podcast, but you know what? I'm gonna go there. Jonathan thinks that I have rejection sensitivity dysphoria, which is not why we're doing this episode, but I will give an example. We were supposed to go to, we were, we're going to an important meeting, and we ended up being late because of something that he insisted on. But I'm gonna set that aside, because the lateness, the lateness did feel like it caused an expectation in me of the disappointment of other people, which absolutely felt disproportionate and did lead to some rage.

• 8:02Jonathan Cohen?

  And what was fascinating about that, because we can talk about why we were late, I think there were many factors in why we were late. I definitely contributed to one of the factors, but not all. For example, we got a little lost. The directions weren't totally clear. They had a very complicated-

• 8:19Mayim Bialik?

  There was a tree trimmer and a train crossing.

• 8:22Jonathan Cohen?

  At one point, we're going the wrong way, and we have a couple more minutes, and the gates for a train crossing come down. It was like an absolute comedic farce.

• 8:35Mayim Bialik?

  It was like the curtain on my soul just came crashing down.

• 8:39Jonathan Cohen?

  And I saw Mayim's face in that moment, lose all color, and a white rage from the underworld come over her, and basically every suppressed emotion you had-

• 8:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Started filtering out. But here's the thing is, in that moment, you've lost the ability to reframe, right? Like, that is a skill that we talk about when we know that something is hysterical, it's historical.

• 9:09Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 9:10Jonathan Cohen?

  You couldn't have access to the adult parts of you that could parent you to say, "It's okay to be a little late. People are gonna be understanding. I have a track record of being a responsible person." None of that was available to you. And I think that's the most interesting part. I'm appreciative that you allow us to talk about this and that, you know, you're open and vulnerable to sharing that. And also, how fascinating is it that you can have all the information in the world? You can have these tools. You can know what the process is. And in that moment, you can lose those... You can lose it. You can lose access to it. So what I would hope people take from this is not a condemnation of themselves,

• 9:52Jonathan Cohen?

  is not adding to the diagnoses of some sort of defect. It is intended to be more information about a pattern that you may have.

• 10:03Mayim Bialik?

  Or that someone you love may have.

• 10:05Jonathan Cohen?

  So that you can take this information and say, "What are the skills that I may need to employ if I find myself in that situation? And how can I have a greater understanding of the people around me about what they may be going through?"

• 10:17Mayim Bialik?

  I feel like this is a good time to take the quiz so that we can sort of start to understand and give examples of some of the questions that might be asked to see if you, like me, have rejection-sensitive dysphoria. All right, Jonathan, you're gonna answer this quiz for me. This is fun. Do I experience sudden intense bouts of rage when my feelings are hurt?

• 10:35Jonathan Cohen?

  Yes.

• 10:35Mayim Bialik?

  Would you say very often?

• 10:37Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, "very often" is a hard thing to say, but...

• 10:40Mayim Bialik?

  Often.

• 10:40Jonathan Cohen?

  I would say often. And I'll give a little caveat here is that you try and fight it because there is a strong part of yourself that knows... Like, you're almost watching yourself have the experience, telling yourself that the experience doesn't need to be so intense, and yet you have it anyway, so it's a fun battle.

• 10:59Mayim Bialik?

  Thank you. I have rejection-sensitive dysphoria with insight. Do I experience sudden intense bouts of extreme sadness when I think I've been rejected or criticized?

• 11:07Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh, yeah.

• 11:07Mayim Bialik?

  Am I my own harshest critic?

• 11:09Jonathan Cohen?

  Absolutely.

• 11:09Mayim Bialik?

  Very often.

• 11:10Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Mayim Bialik?

  Do I feel anxious in social situations because I assume that no one likes me?

• 11:14Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, is there a hundred percent option?

• 11:17Mayim Bialik?

  Do I consider myself a people pleaser, going above and beyond to get on someone's good side?

• 11:21Jonathan Cohen?

  You sure do.

• 11:21Mayim Bialik?

  Do I pass up opportunities or avoid starting projects because I'm afraid I'll fail?

• 11:25Jonathan Cohen?

  Yep.

• 11:26Mayim Bialik?

  Have I been called overly sensitive? Or a head case? It feels kinda harsh.

• 11:30Jonathan Cohen?

  Feels kinda harsh.

• 11:31Mayim Bialik?

  Because of my strong emotional reactions, absolutely.

• 11:33Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 11:34Mayim Bialik?

  Do I dedicate more time than is necessary to a project or become perfectionistic to make sure my work has no mistakes and is above reproach?

• 11:40Jonathan Cohen?

  On one hand, you work very quickly and you don't want to work too much on self.

• 11:43Mayim Bialik?

  But I'm a little bit nutty professor.

• 11:44Jonathan Cohen?

  But if there's a spelling mistake in anything, you're gonna lose your mind.

• 11:49Mayim Bialik?

  Do I ever experience my emotions as physical sensation? So, Jonathan?

• 11:53Jonathan Cohen?

  Do you experience them as anything but that?

• 11:55Mayim Bialik?

  Well, this is actually interesting because this is a particular feature of rejection-sensitive dysphoria, is many people feel like they've been punched in the chest or physically wounded.

• 12:08Jonathan Cohen?

  What about stabbed in the side so that your back hurts?

• 12:10Mayim Bialik?

  So, I will say, often when I have a strong emotion, it will feel, the way I describe it, it feels like my chest is caving in. I would assume that's what it feels like to be punched in the chest.

• 12:22Jonathan Cohen?

  Say yes to that.

• 12:23Mayim Bialik?

  I'm gonna give that an often. Do you feel shame about the lack of control you have over your emotions? It's better than it used to be.

• 12:29Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah.

• 12:31Mayim Bialik?

  Okay. I've not been formally clinically diagnosed with ADHD, but some people say that I have it. Have I been told I have a mood disorder? Do you shy away from close relationships or romantic relationships because you worry that if people knew the real you, they wouldn't like you? I mean, it's a thing, it's a feature, but I don't know that it's... I mean, I feel like no one ever gets to know the real me, does that count?

• 12:55Jonathan Cohen?

  That's precious.

• 12:56Mayim Bialik?

  Do you assume the worst in commonplace interactions, worrying you'll be fired every time your boss calls you into her office? When someone calls my name, I assume I've done something wrong. When Mike, when, when someone was crying at the park, I was always like, what did my kid do? Even though my children were very, very nice at the park. I, I do, I have this, this sense of over responsibility that like, I'm always at fault. Like my, my kid must've smacked your child. And it's like, your kid can't walk yet and she's across the park. Do I think I cannot go on feeling this way? I mean, I've done it for a very long time. I think I'm doing a great job. Do you avoid meeting new people or trying new, a hundred percent because your fear of rejection and criticism is so strong? Yeah.

• 13:37Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, also I will say that being a person that sometimes people notice makes me more self-conscious because I do feel that for me in particular, trying new things is hard because it's like, if it's anything, like even when I hosted Jeopardy, even when I hosted Jeopardy, it was like, why doesn't she know the answer to that? Isn't she a neuroscientist? You know, like there's this notion.

• 13:57Jonathan Cohen?

  You didn't know something about like a Canadian province and people lost their minds. I'm like, she's not a geography expert. What's the big deal?

• 14:05Mayim Bialik?

  The most points you can get is 60 points. The higher the point total, the greater the likelihood that you showed signs of rejection sensitive dysphoria. And this, um, also I should say, this quiz is from Attitude, A D D, Additude, uh, mag.com. What do you think I got out of 60?

• 14:22Jonathan Cohen?

  Uh, 47.

• 14:24Mayim Bialik?

  More.

• 14:25Jonathan Cohen?

  52.

• 14:26Mayim Bialik?

  I'm 50 out of 60.

• 14:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Valerie literally got the same score. That's why you guys get along so well.

• 14:31Mayim Bialik?

  That is why we get along so well.

• 14:32Jonathan Cohen?

  When you're talking to each other, it's just one person thinking the other person is gonna reject them.

• 14:37Mayim Bialik?

  Well, so what's interesting is, and I'm gonna speak for Valerie, I don't think of Valerie as someone who seems to have ADHD. If you put me and Valerie next to each other, right? I'm like a vibrating squirrel, right? Valerie is very, she's more quiet. Obviously you don't only get, you know, this, but there are very high rates in neurodivergence and ADHD in particular. My Alex Breakdown is supported by Quince. You know those pieces in your closet that you reach for over and over again? That sweater that some- Somehow works with everything, the jeans you know will always fit just right, the bag you carry everywhere. Those are the pieces that earn a permanent place in your wardrobe, and that's what Quince does so well. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, premium stretch denim.

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• 17:28Jonathan Cohen?

  Let's talk about the mechanisms and help people understand what's actually happening on a physiological level that is contributing to what they're experiencing.

• 17:36Mayim Bialik?

  People with rejection sensitivity dysphoria, they will often experience neutral content as negative or menacing. So imagine being socially anxious. Some of us are socially anxious. And sometimes when you're socially anxious, you are reading into what other people might be thinking and you're kind of getting in their head and what if they this and what if they that. That's similar, but further down this spectrum, even mildly negative social cues, I will interpret as catastrophic. I mean, I cannot tell you the number of parties I've left. Not like I'm leaving in a huff, but like I do not belong here. I cannot be here. That's a huge component.

• 18:18Mayim Bialik?

  I mean, people, you know, oftentimes when I talk to people, they're like, I don't get it. You're a TV star. You were on The Big Bang Theory. People don't know what was going on in my head and what it was like. Every Emmy season, it was literally like, you know, Garfield, when he doesn't want to leave the house on a Monday? That's an old school reference. He would literally hold on to the door jamb and John would have to like push him through, but his hand. That was like getting me out of the house. That's what this episode is. This, even though I don't need another label, Lord knows, it does help me to know that this variety of discomfort, of pain, of shame, of many cases, like feels like I'm generating something

• 19:00Mayim Bialik?

  that I cannot put boundaries around. It is helpful to know I'm not the only one and this is a thing.

• 19:09Jonathan Cohen?

  And it has nothing to do with your external circumstances.

• 19:13Mayim Bialik?

  But I can't manage that because my life is about being inside of the unintentional, unconscious wishes of people that I don't know.

• 19:23Jonathan Cohen?

  Let's expand on that. Meaning people look at your life and they're like, you were going to the Emmys. You had all the success. You were on the top rated TV show at the time. Look how many people just adored interacting with you. They get so excited. They're like, oh, my gosh, Amy. And you know, you brought joy to so many people. And yet, that doesn't translate. That doesn't overcome whatever is happening inside that makes it so uncomfortable to go out in the world and to potentially experience this rejection.

• 19:52Mayim Bialik?

  There are many academic articles, and we'll kind of get into some of the more technical aspects of this. One of the articles that I found, which is very, very interesting, actually talks about the disproportionate representation of rejection-sensitive dysphoria in sexual minorities or in populations that maybe are expecting to not be received as fairly. And I think that's a very interesting component here, that certain populations may be more likely to be experiencing this because of all these cultural factors that actually go

• 20:32Mayim Bialik?

  into the practicalities of rejection, shame, and acceptance. We've talked a lot about the brain. We've talked a lot about different regions of the brain.

• 20:43Jonathan Cohen?

  I love a default mode network.

• 20:44Mayim Bialik?

  You do love a default mode network. Default mode network, interestingly, is not involved in, specifically in what we can understand about rejection sensitivity. There's a part of the brain that we talk about, that we usually talk about as the fear center. Do you know what region that is?

• 21:00Jonathan Cohen?

  Amygdala?

• 21:01Mayim Bialik?

  That's right, the amygdala. There's actually two of them, and they're on each side of the brain. There's, there's certain, you know, obvious connections that we might make to abnormal amygdala processing, or sensitivity, or signaling, largely because we're having situations that are leading to an imposed sense of fear, of pain, of, you know, alert, right? And a cause for alarm. But what's interesting is some of the brain regions that have been mapped as important for rejection are the parts of the brain that process social information. In particular, here's one study.

• 21:44Mayim Bialik?

  Medial, yeah, medial prefrontal activity when anticipating social feedback. So you don't have to know what the medial prefrontal region looks like, but know that there are parts of the brain that are literally specifically designed to scan for social information and receive information from social situations that then leads to the need for a social output. Keep in mind, the brain is this mass of feedback loops and signaling and receptors and binding and ion activity. There's all of these things that if in an imbalance,

• 22:25Mayim Bialik?

  you might see differences in the perception and activation of these regions that are responsible for this kind of social information. So to oversimplify it, your brain might be receiving information that is neutral, but because of the way everything's working, it's actually not neutral to your brain. And I think this knowledge of the brain and nervous system allows us to step out of it's all your fault, because it's kind of your brain's fault. But what it is, is that when we talk to someone, for example, who's schizophrenic and they're having auditory hallucinations, it doesn't help to tell them that those sounds are not there,

• 23:08Mayim Bialik?

  because their brain is producing the interpretation of sound in a way that it is very true to them. And in the same way, when people tell you, you're fine, this is why you're not fine. When people tell you, they like you, this is why you don't believe it. And I think that's a really important component here. So many of us who are sensitive in this way are planning social activities around the potential for rejection. It's because our brain may be processing all of this social input in ways that are simply not advantageous or accurate to the situation, and that's a major bummer.

• 23:47Jonathan Cohen?

  It isn't about reality. It's about the perception of reality or the internal reality of the person. And we talk a lot about... How reality is not objective? And how there's more to reality than meets the eye. This is more to reality than sometimes we talk about. It is a different perception, not necessarily extrasensory. But it's almost a, would you call it a misfiring? Well, how would you describe it?

• 24:14Mayim Bialik?

  It's funny because there's another study that used functional MRI to look at blood flow during various different tasks. And this one shows that emotional processing and cognitive control are very sensitive. They're very, very sensitive. So it's the cognitive information coming in and the way that we're processing it that is not necessarily accurate to the situation. And also, to me, that sounds a lot more like neurodivergent in terms of autism spectrum. Because when you think about some of the social complexity of people who are on the autism spectrum, it often involves not necessarily being able to calibrate socially.

• 24:56Mayim Bialik?

  But the key here is that there's this strong emotional component, which I think in many cases you wouldn't be seeing when we're discussing the autism spectrum with this kind of dysphoria. For those of you who might be strongly identifying with what I'm talking about and what I'm experiencing and what we're talking about here, we do have some tips for reframing that we're going to be sharing later in the episode. But first, we want to talk about some more specific examples so that you can really kind of wrap your head around the variety of ways that rejection-sensitive dysphoria can infiltrate your brain and your experiences. There was actually an article very recently in The Guardian, and I've been interested in rejection-sensitive dysphoria for quite some time, but I'm glad to see that it's getting more notice.

• 25:40Mayim Bialik?

  And from this article, the examples that were given is a woman who's 36. When recalling being teased when she was 11, it still brought her to tears, just describing what happened. And this is 25 years later. And she instantly felt that like, oh, that like physical discomfort, even remembering it. She also remembers that someone made a joke that seemed... Like, not a big deal, but she said she felt haunted. And this is years later. So often, we're looking at a time course that doesn't seem to refresh, right? And when we talk about this from the perception of like, inner child work, to me, this is a lot of

• 26:25Mayim Bialik?

  inner child stuff, right? This is a lot of, who's that hurt child in me? That is persisting in all of my interactions to still produce that kind of reaction years and years later. So to me, there's this huge overlap between that wounded inner child, right? Which we talk about. And sort of that inner critic that's sort of constantly monitoring what that child needs and protecting you, right? From all this rejection. So in rejection-sensitive dysphoria, the solution is often like, don't go. Or leave. Just get out. Or, you know, be emotionally anorexic. Don't engage with people. Like, you don't need the possibility of that, right? I mean, that's significant.

• 27:08Mayim Bialik?

  Another example that's described in the article in The Guardian is about email errors. Now, we've all sent an email that like, shouldn't have gone to the person that it went to, right? Yes? Yep. Show of hands. Aton, is that... Yeah, okay. I had this happen to me years ago. And the person that I sent it to, this is kind of a funny story. The person that I sent this email to that I didn't realize that they were CC'd on, that person was Sabbath observant. And the email that I sent was right before the Sabbath. So I couldn't even get a response from them until 25 hours later, when presumably, they would either see the email or respond to it.

• 27:53Mayim Bialik?

  That was a rough 25 hours. And since that day, and this was...

• 28:00Mayim Bialik?

  Probably 15 years ago. Since that day, whenever I send an email, I compulsively double check. Compulsively. It stayed with me, shook me to my core.

• 28:16Jonathan Cohen?

  I can relate to the aspect of typos and other things in emails, which

• 28:21Mayim Bialik?

  Sure.

• 28:21Jonathan Cohen?

  They happen in my emails. And I used to be terrified of sending that because I used to think that they were a

• 28:28Mayim Bialik?

  Oh.

• 28:29Jonathan Cohen?

  reflection on intelligence.

• 28:31Mayim Bialik?

  Different.

• 28:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Reflection on something else.

• 28:33Mayim Bialik?

  Different.

• 28:33Jonathan Cohen?

  It is, but it's like adjoining issue.

• 28:37Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and imagine if that was coupled with rejection sensitivity, like dysphoria. And how many people with ADHD or people who are neurodivergent also are dyslexic, have other learning disabilities. That would, in theory, make it really, really complicated. The example that was given here is that something was pointed out to this woman who's in this article. It was pointed out to her that she made an error. She said her chest became tight and she started having an asthma attack. She went to the hospital. Like, that was the level. And a lot of times you'll hear people be like, "I was having a panic attack." No. If you're not in the hospital having them check your oxygen, be careful what you assume about your panic attack.

• 29:20Mayim Bialik?

  This was a physical sense of collapse that instantly was unrelated to the subject. Meaning, "Oh, this happened and now I don't have enough oxygen." A lot of times when people describe panic attacks, what they're describing is bad feelings in their body about something that happened that feels unpleasant, right? This is the point at what physical impact, right? Of rejection sensitive dysphoria. That's what it can look like. And this woman ended up being told

• 29:55Mayim Bialik?

  And she did receive an autism diagnosis in childhood. She was on the spectrum, also ADHD. And once she heard that this coexists with those things, it gave her a place to start to try and figure out, do I have to live like this? The answer is no, you don't have to live like this. I also want to point out, there's a lot of criticism. And you mentioned it when we talk about diagnoses and putting people in boxes and do you need this label? And what does it mean? One of the comments when this woman started researching about rejection sensitive dysphoria, a lot of people are like, you're just touchy. You're just super sensitive. And it could be dismissed as such. And I have many people, many people close to me who'd be like, girl, buck up. Buck up, right? I mean, think about my dad.

• 30:40Mayim Bialik?

  Like when I would get hit, when, you know, if I would like catch the football wrong and I was in pain and crying, he'd be like, get up, get up, right? Like, some people are just like, we don't have room in society for this. Do we have, do we have room in society for this? Where does this fit? I'm also touchy, but I also have rejection sensitive dysphoria.

• 30:58Jonathan Cohen?

  Is this diagnosis going to limit your ability to navigate the world? Meaning by knowing this, is it going to help you? Or are you going to use it as an excuse to do less?

• 31:11Mayim Bialik?

  Okay, this is a great question. One that we did not, I did not know you were going to propose that question.

• 31:15Jonathan Cohen?

  And again, I'm going to use my experience, which I'm caveat, caveat, caveat. It is not the same. But I sent an email recently that spelled Pacific wrong. Every time you're CC'd on an email and I make a mistake, you point it out to me. It's your rejection sensitivity coming on to me. And while I don't intend to say-

• 31:36Mayim Bialik?

  I want you to know for the next time, not because I'm like, you're a bad person who can't spell.

• 31:41Jonathan Cohen?

  I would have previously felt way, way worse. Like, my experience of that 10 or 15 years ago would have been like so intense and terrified. And like, how did this person? And I would have lost a lot of mental energy on it. What changed was, I think, life experience in that I have more positive experiences that prove that I am not the thoughts that I thought I was. And two, I worked with- Very high functioning executives who

• 32:15Mayim Bialik?

  Also couldn't spell.

• 32:17Jonathan Cohen?

  Who also couldn't spell. And they functioned and built companies and sent a lot of things. One of them, English wasn't his first language. And you could barely understand his emails. And I was like, this guy built and sold multiple companies and is very successful.

• 32:32Mayim Bialik?

  So you were just around the wrong people.

• 32:35Jonathan Cohen?

  And they prioritized a perfection and a level of perfection that for me wasn't achievable.

• 32:40Mayim Bialik?

  I just feel bad that I'm a great speller and I'm not even allowed to celebrate it anymore. I used to win bees. I was the one everybody came to. Now it's like, oh, I feel ashamed that I'm a good speller.

• 32:52Jonathan Cohen?

  I used to call my grandmother and ask her how to spell things before the internet was there.

• 32:56Mayim Bialik?

  The kind of like core machinery that is necessary to not have this. I just, the question you asked me, right? The question you asked me is, does knowing this label, does this make me more likely to do things or less? So in some ways, it gives me, I don't want to say an excuse. But I feel like my hope is that you will understand better why things are hard for me. Because it's not just, I don't want to, I'm a brat, I didn't get enough sleep. I don't weigh what I want, my hair is too gray and thin, you know? It's not that. It's that the framework with which my brain views people, places and things is different. I mean, we're all different, right?

• 33:41Mayim Bialik?

  We're all neurodivergent. But this kind of understanding, I think, will make me just as likely to not want to do things. But I will feel less bad about it.

• 33:54Jonathan Cohen?

  Have we become a society that has so much comfort and so much room for emotion?

• 34:01Mayim Bialik?

  It's a luxury.

• 34:02Jonathan Cohen?

  That it's a luxury to feel like this. I had a friend who was like, depression? No, I'm sorry, we don't have time for that. But at what point you're like, lift weights, move your body, get outside. And yes, you're going to have emotional reactions, but you have to be able to pull yourself up and parent and hold that part of yourself and almost override that part of your brain that is

• 34:27Jonathan Cohen?

  Telling you a signal that some other part of your brain has to know is not true.

• 34:32Mayim Bialik?

  What is a situation that you most see me exhibiting a very, very strong reaction to rejection from?

• 34:43Jonathan Cohen?

  When I'm not available immediately when you want to talk to me? What is it?

• 34:49Mayim Bialik?

  My children.

• 34:51Mayim Bialik?

  When I am not needed in a particular situation, I can tell that I'm having a disproportionate reaction to that situation.

• 35:03Jonathan Cohen?

  When my child doesn't need me,

• 35:07Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm like, oh, what else am I gonna do?

• 35:09Mayim Bialik?

  No, correct. And that's a really interesting example because if they were, did anybody see The Assessment? Highly recommend the movie The Assessment. If they had done an assessment before I had children, I'm sure my ex-husband would line up to raise his hand in agreement with this one. If they had said, anyone who has rejection sensitive dysphoria is likely gonna have a very hard time parenting small children, I would have been like-

• 35:36Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh, small children don't give an F about your feelings.

• 35:39Mayim Bialik?

  And as an adult, we are supposed to be the ones who are able to say, that's a child, it's not a rejection of me as a human if they say, mama, I've got it, right? But that is a tendency that I've been aware that I feel. I feel it from animals. Like, if I want to pet a cat or a dog, I feel like you're like checking out on this relationship. I feel it. I mean, Valerie, I'm gonna look to Valerie. If I want to engage, yes, with like an animal and they're kind of a pissy animal, it feels different to me. It's not that I can't manage it, but I am aware now that that level of processing feels disproportionate. Absolutely.

• 36:24Jonathan Cohen?

  What do you do in that moment? Do you recognize that it's disproportionate?

• 36:28Mayim Bialik?

  What? Other people don't, other people aren't brought to tears by a cat not wanting to be pet?

• 36:35Jonathan Cohen?

  Valerie says, even at the effing zoo, if they don't single me out in a crowd, which is amazing.

• 36:42Jonathan Cohen?

  I really like, I'm kind of fascinated by, by this because it feels, number one, so frequent.

• 36:50Mayim Bialik?

  For me?

• 36:51Jonathan Cohen?

  Just for, for people who are walking around the world, like, it also feels like it's something about the child that just didn't get

• 37:03Jonathan Cohen?

  a, a moment of connection that allowed them to feel like everything is gonna be okay.

• 37:08Mayim Bialik?

  Well, Valerie also brings up, a lot of people say like, don't care what people think, or I've often said this, what other people think of you is none of your business, right? But that, it's like, it feels like it, it just like whizzes right by me, that kind of statement. But, I mean, it's, it happens a lot. I don't, frankly, I don't understand how I function.

• 37:30Jonathan Cohen?

  I'm starting to wonder too.

• 37:31Mayim Bialik?

  I mean-

• 37:31Jonathan Cohen?

  Because it also feels exhausting.

• 37:33Mayim Bialik?

  It's very exhausting.

• 37:34Jonathan Cohen?

  Because you're on this roller coaster. This rush of like,

• 37:38Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 37:38Jonathan Cohen?

  Things being out of control all the time.

• 37:42Mayim Bialik?

  Well, there's a potential for, you know, kind of like rejection at every corner. I also wonder if it's linked to road rage. Because when someone wrongs you or cuts you off or doesn't let you in, right? In many cases, you get that explosion of like, why?

• 37:58Jonathan Cohen?

  You've also heard the term that everyone is dealing with something that you cannot imagine. Like, you have all the knowledge. All the podcasts, all the knowledge, all the, we are not our thoughts, we, people are going through stuff, it's really 99% of the time, it's not about us.

• 38:18Mayim Bialik?

  What I'm hoping is that people listening, who are not public figures, can also validate this, because I think that a lot of this has been put on, like, oh, well, you're an actor. Oh, well, you grew up in front of the camera. Oh, well, this, that, the other. Maybe that's not it. I mean, that's part of it, and that's like a huge exaggerated version of it.

• 38:41Jonathan Cohen?

  Well, we would never know what was there without the life experience that you had.

• 38:47Mayim Bialik?

  In my parallel universe existence, who knows? Valerie's never been on television, to my knowledge. I'm very interested also in this as a newer kind of set of traits, because I'm wondering how much other overlap there is with other things that we know about people. Like, just like there's different kinds of narcissists, are there different kinds of rejection-sensitive dysphoria people? Like, do some people get real haughty, you know, and real like, "I don't need to go to that party." Like, "Those people are stupid, F you." Like, does that happen, or is it just the like, "Mwah, mwah, mwah," sniveling response that I have?

• 39:21Jonathan Cohen?

  I think there probably is a lot of externalized anger and blame of the external world, right? Like, if, to protect against the feelings, if that's gonna bring up so much sadness and insecurity, I think a lot of people are gonna externalize and protect themselves.

• 39:39Mayim Bialik?

  So, I'll be honest, I don't feel like there's a protection around this. And I think that's what's so challenging about it. It doesn't feel, and I think this is a great segue into like, solutions and stuff, like, what are some of the things that you can do? Because it doesn't really feel like you can protect it.

• 39:55Jonathan Cohen?

  I have a horrible solution. I'm like, if someone is doing grueling workouts

• 40:00Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 40:01Jonathan Cohen?

  five and a half days a week to exhaust the body and to know that you can go through really, really challenging things. And I'm talking about like, workouts to failure, like, really pushing yourself physically. I'm like, can you still have that level? Because there's not the resources available, right? It's like-

• 40:19Mayim Bialik?

  You think we can extinguish my rejection sensitivity dysphoria?

• 40:23Jonathan Cohen?

  Look, it's an oversimplification, but yeah, part of me thinks it's like, if you push yourself physically so hard-

• 40:30Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan! Improv. Improv makes me cry, and not good crying.

• 40:37Jonathan Cohen?

  So, because there's no right or wrong.

• 40:39Mayim Bialik?

  That's nuts!

• 40:40Jonathan Cohen?

  You need rules. You need to know what is right or wrong.

• 40:42Mayim Bialik?

  And I know that, like, the fear of how people are going to react if I get it wrong. It is crippling. The word is crippling. And everybody's like, "You're great, you're so funny, you're gonna do this." Nobody cares. Everyone can shut up.

• 41:01Jonathan Cohen?

  There's an amazing example of this when you were doing Improv at the Groundlings.

• 41:05Mayim Bialik?

  Well, the first time I went, I literally, I was a wreck for weeks. But, so this, I was revisiting, but they were putting some more structure around it.

• 41:13Jonathan Cohen?

  You were doing, like, great. I think there was, like, two or three scenes that you were in, and they went really well.

• 41:18Mayim Bialik?

  I was holding back tears the entire performance.

• 41:21Jonathan Cohen?

  But you did great. People were laughing. I was like, I was there, I was watching it. I was, like, waiting for you to bust out crying. You hadn't cried yet.

• 41:31Jonathan Cohen?

  And I was, like, thinking to myself, "This is going really well." And then a scene comes on with an actor whose name I don't remember.

• 41:39Mayim Bialik?

  Okay.

• 41:40Jonathan Cohen?

  And he's a phenomenal improver. Just the two of you.

• 41:43Mayim Bialik?

  Okay. We have to create a children's book, right? That was, like, the setup. It's like, you're both reading to a group of kids, but, like, that's all we got.

• 41:51Jonathan Cohen?

  And I guess he had never heard of Dr. Seuss.

• 41:55Mayim Bialik?

  That's right. I can't remember why. He had never read a Dr. Seuss book.

• 42:00Jonathan Cohen?

  He doesn't have children, I guess. He doesn't know who Dr. Seuss is.

• 42:04Mayim Bialik?

  No!

• 42:04Jonathan Cohen?

  And if you don't know who Dr. Seuss is, the thing about Dr. Seuss is the writing is extremely specific, right? Like, pull up, it's like, green eggs and ham.

• 42:14Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 42:15Jonathan Cohen?

  It's rhyming couplets.

• 42:16Mayim Bialik?

  Yes.

• 42:17Jonathan Cohen?

  The stories are, like, very iconic. And he's making things up that are hilarious, but totally outside of the Dr. Seuss world.

• 42:27Jonathan Cohen?

  And you are freaking out because nothing that he's saying makes any sense to you whatsoever.

• 42:35Mayim Bialik?

  Well, and Dr. Seuss is like rhyming couplets.

• 42:37Jonathan Cohen?

  And then there's a dragon, and the dragon starts spitting fire, and you-

• 42:42Mayim Bialik?

  And I'm trying to rhyme with it.

• 42:44Jonathan Cohen?

  And you're trying to bring it back to Dr. Seuss, so there are these opposing tensions, and the two of you are moving further and further apart, and as the crowd, who doesn't know what's happening in your internal world, it's hilarious. People are loving it because there's such a huge juxtaposition, and that's what's making the comedy. And in your world, you're like, "This isn't working."

• 43:08Mayim Bialik?

  Well-

• 43:08Jonathan Cohen?

  This guy-

• 43:09Mayim Bialik?

  It also bumped up against my rigidity of like, which is like, I don't know, like, yeah, it wasn't right, like, meaning there's a right and a wrong way, and like, that didn't feel right to me.

• 43:19Jonathan Cohen?

  Not only did it not feel right, it felt like the worst type of wrong.

• 43:23Mayim Bialik?

  Well, I didn't know that this episode was gonna get this personal.

• 43:26Jonathan Cohen?

  But what was amazing about that moment, again, is externally, how wrong it felt for you was comedic gold.

• 43:34Mayim Bialik?

  I actually felt some confidence, I remember, in that skit in particular, but, like I said-

• 43:39Jonathan Cohen?

  But that was the breaking point.

• 43:41Mayim Bialik?

  This? I mean, how many minutes into this episode am I realizing that this explains something so deeply that has plagued me for years? Years. Years. I know a lot of people are wondering, "How can you be on stage? How do you do that?" The thing about performing is that I have a script. I've got the words that I'm supposed to say. I know the way that I'm supposed to say them, because we've rehearsed it all week, and then we perform it on Big Bang Theory, on Blossom, in front of a live audience. That is not the same thing as all of these other things. As improv, first of all, it's not the same as that. It's not the same as going to a party.

• 44:25Mayim Bialik?

  It's not the same as sending an email. It's not the same level of vulnerability and anticipation of fear.

• 44:35Jonathan Cohen?

  There's, there really is a huge difference between people who do improv- And there's much more of an overlap between the improvists-

• 44:43Mayim Bialik?

  They don't have rejection sensitive dysphoria.

• 44:45Jonathan Cohen?

  And the stand-up comedians, because you're standing up there without a script. The stand-ups have worked out jokes, but they never go exactly the way you imagine.

• 44:55Mayim Bialik?

  Yeah.

• 44:56Jonathan Cohen?

  There's real-time interaction. And those people who are given scripts, who are actors, who, you know, maybe they improv- Sometimes, or the people who are just like, "I know how to deliver these lines."

• 45:06Mayim Bialik?

  So, one of the things that also gets grouped here, before we get into actually, "What do you do? How can you get help with this?" Right? This overlaps very, very strongly with something called self-esteem, right? Because a lot of people would just say, "You just lack confidence." What you need is to become more confident. Do more improv. Do more practice. Meet with a private improv coach. If you're just more confident, you won't be like this. Well, guess what? I don't think that's true. I don't think it's just about confidence. And the kind of improvement in confidence that we are talking about, that I would need to function in the world without feeling like this is happening? This is pretty far off from where we are right now.

• 45:51Jonathan Cohen?

  I would agree with you, and I would challenge to say that, at a certain point, more positive experiences of things going well would reduce the fear of things going badly.

• 46:04Mayim Bialik?

  Do you know what it's like when someone breaks up with me?

• 46:08Jonathan Cohen?

  Uh, no. No, I don't.

• 46:09Mayim Bialik?

  Imagine having this kind of sensitivity. What it means as, "What can I do so this is not happening? Who do I have to be so that this doesn't happen? You want more this? I'll give you more that. You want less of this? Okay, I'll do less of that." This, to me, there's gotta be a huge Venn diagram overlapping with some level of like codependency and love addiction, right? Don't make me feel that there's something about me that is not right for you. So let me make it right for you.

• 46:44Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, but that is a recipe for disaster.

• 46:47Mayim Bialik?

  And that's how we got this podcast.

• 46:52Jonathan Cohen?

  380 episodes later, here we are, folks. It's all because of rejection sensitivity.

• 46:58Mayim Bialik?

  You know, Jonathan, I enjoy doing episodes with you alone. This one's been very interesting, though. I feel like this is the most personal we've gotten on an episode, just the two of us.

• 47:09Jonathan Cohen?

  Took a while to get here.

• 47:11Mayim Bialik?

  Let's talk about some of the things you actually can do. So, do you want to give any guesses? I didn't like your first idea, like exposure therapy. That's unpleasant.

• 47:20Jonathan Cohen?

  I have something planned that I have not told my

• 47:23Mayim Bialik?

  Are you gonna reject, are you gonna dump me live? Let's see what happens.

• 47:27Jonathan Cohen?

  There's been more hand slapping of the table on this episode than any other episode we've ever done.

• 47:33Mayim Bialik?

  Go ahead. Should I talk about what people can do?

• 47:35Jonathan Cohen?

  Yeah, let's talk about what people can do, but tune into Substack because we have a surprise coming. I don't know when.

• 47:43Mayim Bialik?

  He's gonna dump me on Substack. Let's talk about some of the things that people can do, but please do join us over on Substack because you do not want to miss that.

• 47:51Jonathan Cohen?

  My and Bealex breakdown on Substack.

• 47:52Mayim Bialik?

  I'm gonna say something that's very trite, which is that any of the things that would be suggested for low self-esteem indeed could be recommended for this. Meaning, if you've been a person who's been like, I'm not gonna work on myself. I'm fine. I don't need to go to therapy, like whatever happened to my childhood? I don't want to think about it. If you're one of those people and you're experiencing what I'm describing, that's a great place to start. Some people do find that certain medications that treat depression and anxiety can quiet these voices. And I have experienced that, you know, when I was younger, I tried just about every medication that there was, starting very young. Certain things do make these voices quieter, and I'm very interested in the, you know,

• 48:37Mayim Bialik?

  the chemical mechanisms, probably be a topic for a deeper dive if people are interested, or maybe we could talk about it in a live sometime. So, some of those things do help, but you know, cognitive behavioral therapy is one of the things, and my level feels pretty stubborn. It does, it feels pretty stubborn. But here's an example, this is from the University of Rochester Medical Center. Um, treating yourself with compassion, and these are just some things to think about. Treating yourself with acceptance, validation, compassion. You know, we have to honor these emotions is what they recommend. You cannot just use logic. And I think that's what a lot of people are doing. They're trying to use logic. Logic doesn't work. So that's what I'm also here to validate for you.

• 49:21Mayim Bialik?

  Logic does not work. So how, how can you acknowledge fears without agreeing with their content? This is a great question because so many of us have fears. And what we're told is like, well, that's not going to happen or don't be afraid of that. But how do you acknowledge that fear without agreeing with it? That's sort of the challenge. So if you say, let's say, I'm feeling scared that people don't like me anymore. Right? My heart's beating fast. This is the example they give. My breathing feels blocked. I'm terrified that they hate what I said. What you want to do is you want to say, yes, and.

• 49:59Jonathan Cohen?

  An improv tool.

• 50:00Mayim Bialik?

  You love a yes and.

• 50:01Jonathan Cohen?

  I love a yes and.

• 50:02Mayim Bialik?

  And pair it with an emotion. So yes, I feel lonely and scared. And I know that sometimes these situations happen, right? Um, yes, I feel alone and I likely won't always feel the way I'm feeling now. I mean, that's, you know, something we teach children, right? You will not feel this forever. You'll feel other versions of shitty, but we don't want to tell them that too young because they'll be very depressed. Yes, I'm worried that I might get fired and I see that I got an accolade yesterday

• 50:46Mayim Bialik?

  from this same boss, right? So it's trying to not deny the feeling because I think that's what so many of us are taught to do. Stop being so sensitive. Stop this, stop that. It's just this, you're wrong. But this is to say, yes, I'm feeling this, right? I am feeling this and here's what objectively can be true. And that's sort of stepping out of that. I call it the timeless inner child because it doesn't know what, what timeframe it's on. It's always on the timeframe of when it was injured or when it was scared. Um, and being able to sort of step out of that. So those are just some things. And you know what? I think this is something that we're gonna start seeing more of because I think it's a very important, a very important set of symptoms. Again, it's not considered its own diagnosis.

• 51:31Mayim Bialik?

  Um, but um, this one really, it felt close to me, but as we talked about it more, I, I learned a lot more. I'm really, really glad that we talked about this.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  Vulnerable.

• 51:44Jonathan Cohen?

  I enjoyed the fact that you brought this topic up for us. It is more and more prevalent and being talked about. And so uh,

• 51:51Mayim Bialik?

  It's very vulnerable.

• 51:52Jonathan Cohen?

  It was very vulnerable and you shared a lot today. And I think that we're, people really appreciate that.

• 51:57Mayim Bialik?

  I just thought of another place that we've seen this play out.

• 52:00Jonathan Cohen?

  Where's that?

• 52:00Mayim Bialik?

  A behind the scenes thing. Well, think of every time we've had on a particularly intimidating physician usually.

• 52:07Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh.

• 52:07Mayim Bialik?

  I get very, very, I get angry like before, like, I don't have anything to talk about. What am I gonna talk about? Why you made me talk? How many times does that happen?

• 52:16Jonathan Cohen?

  Oh my God.

• 52:18Mayim Bialik?

  I think this is it.

• 52:20Jonathan Cohen?

  I say to mine, I'm like, every time, like every episode, it's the same thing like, and I've had to say to, she, she, she says to me like, what are we gonna talk to this person about? Why are we talking to them? And I'm like confused because there's a pitch document.

• 52:35Mayim Bialik?

  Now you know, I'm, I'm not smart enough. They're gonna call me out on it. I'm gonna look stupid. It's gonna be horrible. They're gonna think that I'm wasted my degree and they're gonna think that why did UCLA give me a PhD? They're gonna call up my thesis advisor and be like, why did you give this lady a PhD? And it feels imminently threatening.

• 52:54Jonathan Cohen?

  And what's, doesn't make any sense to me is I'm like, she has a vast more amount of knowledge than I have.

• 53:01Mayim Bialik?

  Logic. Logic doesn't work.

• 53:03Jonathan Cohen?

  And all these guests, they're like, the, the episodes, you've, you've been listening. The guests keep coming back. They enjoy what you have to offer. They say, no one has read my book as thoroughly as you have.

• 53:15Mayim Bialik?

  Okay. I'm not gonna say who, and then we'll wrap, but I do have to say that there was one guest I was particularly so scared to speak to. And the only thing that made me feel better was that after the episode, Jonathan made a mashup of all of the deeply vulnerable things this person said when they kind of came clean with us about challenges they have. I sometimes just watch it when I need to feel better because it reminds me that even very prominent, successful, famous people have those vulnerable places. And I love that you made it for me, but like, that's helpful to me.

• 53:54Jonathan Cohen?

  I know we cannot release it. Don't ask.

• 53:56Mayim Bialik?

  Jonathan, great, great talk. Great episode with you. Thank you so much. Please head over to Substack. You are not going to want to miss what happens over there related to this episode. Also, we're very, very curious, very curious, who else has rejection-sensitive dysphoria? I can't wait to meet my fellow, my fellow friends and strugglers on this journey. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time.