Ep 536 - The Program (feat. James Fox)

Support the D. A. W. G. Z. @ patreon.com/MSsecretpod Support James by Watching his new documentary 'The Program' - OUT NOW! Follow him on IG @jamesfoxdirector Go See Matt Live @ mattmccusker.com/dates Go See Shane Live @ shanemgillis.com yo0o0o0o0. We're here. This week Cusky is joined by author and documentary filmmaker James Fox. They take to the podiums to discuss his new film The Program (out now) and many other extraterrestrial / UAP phenomena. Please enjoy. God Bless. This episode is brought to you by Aura Frames Exclusive $35-off Carver Mat at https://auraframes.com/. Use code MSSP at checkout to save! The Mountain is calling, you should answer #DoTheDew #MTNDEW Shop now @ https://lets.shop/2141/dothedew This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/MSSP and get on your way to being your best self. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Wow, wow, Wes.

• 0:02Matt McCusker?

  James Fox, welcome. Thank you so much for coming on, man.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Thanks for having me on.

• 0:05Matt McCusker?

  You have your, your new documentary, The Program, I believe?

• 0:09Speaker 00

  Yes, it drops, it dropped today.

• 0:11Matt McCusker?

  Dude, that's great.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  Dropping right now.

• 0:13Matt McCusker?

  How about the timing, dude? You couldn't have planned that better with the goddamn fucking.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  I literally had an Air Force Colonel text me and he goes, so what's up with the promotion? You managed to get a full on alien invasion on the release of your film? How did you coordinate that?

• 0:30Matt McCusker?

  Hey, man, there's just larger forces at play. So that's all that is.

• 0:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I welcome it. I mean, you know, within reason.

• 0:40Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 0:41Speaker 00

  I don't want people to panic.

• 0:42Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, well, dude, here's, I'll, I'll, so to be honest, I was watching the documentary last night and I was, uh, I was just like on the way to a holiday party and I, I just, I got really stoned from a vape pen. I haven't been smoking like that. And I was just like launched and I started watching your documentary and I got like, I started bugging out. I started thinking about just the vastness of the cosmos and just kind of the, you know, the inevitability of there's gotta be some other sort of consciousness or life form out there. And it's like, I was bugging. I was like with my wife and I was like, did you turn it off? I'm freaking out right now.

• 1:13Speaker 00

  What, what, what point did you turn it off? When we got to that, uh, the NASA conference or before?

• 1:19Matt McCusker?

  It was before that, but we were, uh, I just started thinking about it because there was all, it was all these like, you know, there's these like Congress meetings and all these people and it was like the, the line that, I don't know if it was from that or someone said it, but it's like, why would these people put their credibility at risk for no reason?

• 1:34Speaker 00

  No, yeah, no, come on. There's a there there.

• 1:37Matt McCusker?

  Yeah. So it's like, and so, you know, just tell us a little bit about the documentary. How, how did you get into all that? And like, what did you, what kind of like launched you into identifying the UAPs now, not UFOs?

• 1:47Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, yeah. So, yeah, UFOs, unidentified flying objects. And it went to UAP unidentified aerial phenomenon. And then it, because they're coming in and out of the oceans as well, they changed it to unidentified anomalous phenomenon. That's where we're at right now.

• 2:02Matt McCusker?

  To me, it's like, they're just making it harder and harder to say to obscure the truth. That's what I'm coming. It's like you, unidentified alarm, I can't even say it. So I'm like, now I'm out of the race.

• 2:11Speaker 00

  You know, and UFOs had a bit of baggage. There was always sort of that knee jerk reaction when you mentioned UFOs. So I think they wanted to kind of, you know, steer away from that.

• 2:19Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, stoner stuff.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, get into the UAP stuff. And it was really funny. I think it was today or it was last night. Senator Schumer, Senate Majority Leader Schumer is being like hammered in the press. I don't know if you've seen it yet or not. And the guy's like, you don't know what it is. Therefore, it's a UAP. You wrote the legislation. Don't you remember? Like he's like, well, we don't know what they are. Therefore, it's a UAP.

• 2:42Matt McCusker?

  He was probably so, he was probably so blazed when he wrote the legislation.

• 2:46Speaker 00

  They wanna say, they wanna say drones because UAP has people freaking out.

• 2:50Matt McCusker?

  Charged, yeah.

• 2:51Speaker 00

  And it's so funny too, cause they're going, well, we have absolutely no idea what it is, but everyone's fine. Everything's safe. There's nothing to worry about here. Sure.

• 3:00Matt McCusker?

  So there are just like tons of drones popping up and everyone's freaking out. Cause nobody knows whose they are.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  I initially, uh, you know, on first look, I was like, oh, it sounds, you know, conventional. Um, because you know, UAP demonstrated technology that sort of light years advance from anything we have. But then I started doing a little deeper, deeper dive and I'm hearing reports that they're evading, uh, the military radar, FLIR, uh, they go dark. Um, you know, they have a loiter time of hours and hours and hours. Uh, then the, the Coast Guard reported of being followed, uh, over the ocean. I mean, it just, something weird is going on. I don't know exactly what it is or who's behind it, but people are scratching their heads.

• 3:46Matt McCusker?

  That would be crazy if it truly was like a, an alien consciousness, but this was their like mall kiosk of them like flying around holiday toys and being like, check this out. And everyone's freaking out.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  Watch, watch us freak out the humans. Look at them, look at them run.

• 4:01Matt McCusker?

  So, so just take us through, you don't have to obviously give the whole documentary away, but it's like, how did you get into that? And like, how, like to what depth does this whole phenomenon go? Cause like you were saying, when I grew up, it was just like aliens and you'd get a poster with black lights of an alien being like, peace, man.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  Right.

• 4:17Matt McCusker?

  But yeah, the more you hear about it, like it just came out of nowhere. Like the government, I feel like a couple of years ago was like, oh, by the way, aliens are probably real. And everyone was just like, what the fuck? What are you guys doing right that, right now?

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I mean, so how that came about? I'll back up a little bit and tell you how I got into it. And I had a father who was a journalist. He was a quadriplegic with MS. And so at a very early age, I was traveling around the world with him because I was his legs. I was his chauffeur. I was his nurse, his secretary. You know, we just traveled together. He was a mainstream journalist. We interviewed people like Stephen Hawking and race car legend Dan Gurney and did a lot of cool stuff together. And so I had a sneak preview into journalism pretty, pretty early on in my life through my dad. And then I had a high school buddy of mine that when we graduated, we were 18 and we flew to Europe and we bought a used car, Rene Harris.

• 5:11Speaker 00

  And we bought a used car, drove from London down to Portugal. We were really close, man. We were like brothers. And then we parted ways for like a year or two as things done. He had different things going on, whatever. And then I reunited with him and he was suddenly into this whole UFO thing. And I was like, oh, God, Rene, man. Like, I remember thinking, I'm gonna have to cut my best friend loose. Like, this is really unfortunate, you know? And he was talking about Roswell and UFO crash and alien bodies. And I honestly thought he'd lost his mind. I really did.

• 5:42Matt McCusker?

  Yeah. What year was this roughly?

• 5:44Speaker 00

  Ninety, probably 93.

• 5:46Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Maybe 94, 93.

• 5:48Matt McCusker?

  You were looked at as crazy back then for it.

• 5:51Speaker 00

  And so, anyway, I go, I was, I was apprenticing at a video production company and I went into work. And I was telling my buddy, Richard Van Sickle about it, and I had really looked up to. He was 10 years my senior and really professional, great guy. And I was like, ah, man, my really good friend has suddenly gone off on the deep end. He's into UFOs and aliens and spaceships that crashed and Roswell. And my buddy, Richard, looks at me and goes, you didn't know about Roswell? I was like, how would I know about Roswell? No, I don't know about Roswell. How would I know about Roswell? He goes, well, the government actually admitted that they did recover a flight. Really? He goes, yeah, check it out. Like, they actually admitted it. And then the very people that were involved in the cover up came forward on camera before they died,

• 6:33Speaker 00

  saying it was original, the original press release was correct. So I was like, oh, my gosh. I started looking into it. Went to a few conferences, met a few military guys, and I was like, God, maybe there's something going on here. And so I told my dad, I was like, you know, I was doing video production at the time, and I was doing PSAs and things of that sort. And I was like, I think I'm gonna do a documentary on UFOs. And my dad was like, oh my God, please, son, don't do that. Like, there's, he literally said, it's a dead end street, there's nothing to it, you're wasting your life, please. Not only did he was begging me, he had all of my other members, because I was born in England, of the family, writing me letters, saying, your dad is very concerned about you.

• 7:16Matt McCusker?

  Oh, you were getting like, English letters about it?

• 7:18Speaker 00

  Don't do it.

• 7:19Matt McCusker?

  I don't, that'd be a tough, it's like a scolding. I'm reading Bertrand Russell's autobiography, and there's a lot of like, English letters, and they're, they're pretty, yeah, they'll get you, man.

• 7:28Speaker 00

  Anyway.

• 7:29Matt McCusker?

  Stinging letter.

• 7:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, my grandmother used to call me, rapscallion, you hooligan, you skiver, fraking into the house at all hours of the boarding.

• 7:39Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, she was hilarious. So your whole family's like, please reconsider, your dad's very concerned, you

• 7:44Speaker 00

  know, and I just was like, well, you know, I'm, of course, being a tourist, I'm a bit stubborn, and I just went all in, and I think it took me about four years, and I, and I was at the end of it, I was like, I'm never doing another UFO doc ever again, but I sold it to Discovery Channel, it aired on Learning Channel, and I kinda got the last laugh. And, and then I got invited to Russia, and, because I'd been, I got invited to Russia, which I ended up going in the late 90s, and meeting with generals, and cosmonaut Pavel Popovich, and then I got an invitation to meet with Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper, because I've been trying to get interviews with him on my first doc, and then all of a sudden, I was like, well, I guess I'm doing another doc, because I got all these amazing interviews, and I went to Russia and stuff, and so I did another one, and that one was

• 8:29Speaker 00

  called Out of the Blue, and that took me five years.

• 8:32Matt McCusker?

  Okay.

• 8:33Speaker 00

  And I finished that and I said, never again. I remember, I remember my partner was in a fetal position crying and his wife's like, you're killing my husband. Like, stop.

• 8:44Matt McCusker?

  What was wrong with him?

• 8:44Speaker 00

  We're pushing each other so hard, so hard to do a good doc, right? It's like you just get to the end and you're, I mean, I'd been there myself. I just, you're, you're broken.

• 8:53Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  And so I was like, well, I guess the documentary is done because I didn't really feel like it was where it needed to be. But we were all out of steam. We were out of money. I pushed my, my partner to the brink of death. And his wife was screaming at me like, you know, so I was like, all right. So then we sold that to NBC Universal and it aired as a two hour special on the Sci-Fi Channel. And then three years later, I owned the rights again and I was like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna pick this back up and make it to the film. I always wanted it to be. So I spent a couple more years on out of the blue and I released that as a director's cut. And in the process of that, I broke a big story with the governor of Arizona, Five Simonson, who, there's a very famous Phoenix Lights case that happened in February, sorry, March 13th, 1997. And the governor poo-pooed it at the time.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  And then 10 years later, I met up with him and it's like, what, why did you poo-poo it? You had one of your aides dressed up as an alien. They came and mocked the whole thing and all your, you know, constituents were upset. And he admitted that he saw it too. So then that happened and exploded in the headlines.

• 9:49Matt McCusker?

  What did he see? Oh, he saw the lights?

• 9:51Speaker 00

  Oh, he saw a craft. He saw a big, all connected boomerang shape. He said it must've been a mile from wingtip to wing, across because it was so big.

• 10:00Matt McCusker?

  Why did he, why did he poo-poo it though?

• 10:03Speaker 00

  Uh, he, he said just, well, he said that, that there was overwhelming fear, like people were just freaking out. He contacted the local air force, Luke Air Force Base. He contacted the Pentagon and they all shrugged their shoulders, according to him and said, we don't know what the hell that thing was.

• 10:20Matt McCusker?

  What?

• 10:21Speaker 00

  So anyway, I broke that story and then I got, I got, I hope you don't mind I'm giving you a longer version of this.

• 10:26Matt McCusker?

  No, no, I like it, dude.

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. So, um, so I wrote that story and it catapulted me into limelight. I mean, we were on all the talk shows, Larry King Live with the governor. And I thought, gosh, this would be a really good time to capitalize on this attention because media coverage is very fleeting. And I, you know, it only happens, you're lucky if it happens once in a lifetime. So I was like, hey, let me capitalize on this and let me do an event at the National Press Club. And so I did with my friend Leslie Kane and it was 2007 and we flew in 14 military and government officials from seven countries and held an event at the National Press Club. And I shot the whole thing on HD and then I ended up making a movie about that, which

• 11:11Speaker 00

  I sold to A and E called I Know What I Saw and it was a two hour History Channel special. So then I was just like, I'm done with UFOs. Like I've just, I'm done.

• 11:19Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 11:19Speaker 00

  And I, one of the things I've learned is never say never because I've said that so many times in the past. But then I stepped away from it for a little while. Excuse me. I did a film on the BP oil spill in 2010 and then.

• 11:33Matt McCusker?

  Has that ever gotten cleaned up? Is that, are the waters good now from that?

• 11:35Speaker 00

  I think, I don't know what they're gonna, if they're gonna realize the long-term environmental impacts because they were pumping Coraxit 5,000 feet down into the oil, trying to keep it like from surfacing because they get fined for all the surface oil.

• 11:48Matt McCusker?

  Oh, really?

• 11:48Speaker 00

  So they hide it with the Coraxit, which they'd never done in subsea injection before. So they did that.

• 11:52Matt McCusker?

  And just blanket it down on the bottom.

• 11:55Speaker 00

  They dumped more Coraxit into the Gulf ever before, more than they'd ever done anywhere. It was a huge lab test in the Gulf. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 12:04Matt McCusker?

  I've been personally boycotting BP ever since then.

• 12:06Speaker 00

  So I, so I, I got, I got, okay, there's only two times where I've almost been killed, I've been threatened to be killed in all my filmmaking years. One of them was when I did the BP oil spill film. There was a fisherman, he was head of fisheries for a number of different states and he met with me secretly and he was giving me photographs of the fish impact that was having on these species from, from the Coraxit and the oil. And they had like cysts and boils and, oh, just disgusting. He gave me these photographs and he goes, "You reveal my identity, boy, I will hunt you down and slit your throat. Do we have an understanding?" I said, "Yes, sir, we do." He wasn't kidding. He was like, he goes, "Because I run the fisheries, I'm shooting myself in the foot along with a lot of other

• 12:51Speaker 00

  people, but I can't in good conscience let the people."

• 12:53Matt McCusker?

  Oh, right, right.

• 12:54Speaker 00

  "Eat this stuff, not knowing what's going on, like turn a big lab experiment." The other time I almost got shot in the face is when I was making Moment of Contact. I don't know if you ever saw that film? It's about a UFO crash in Brazil. I was there with my buddy Marco Leal for like 12 years on and off and I made a film called Moment of Contact. It was released in 2022? Yeah, late 2022.

• 13:15Speaker 00

  And we tracked down a guy who'd been hiding for 26 years, who allegedly was driving the car during the second capture of a live alien. I know it sounds nuts. I'm with you.

• 13:24Matt McCusker?

  Well, no, no, explain that. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 13:27Speaker 00

  There was, it was a UFO crash that took place in 1996 in Varginha, Brazil. I had looked, I'd been looking into it for 12 years. I didn't believe it when I first heard about it. In fact, I was making my first UFO documentary, actually my second UFO documentary out of the blue when I heard about the crash. It happened in 96. I was making it in like 99, 2000 is when I started. I heard about it, but I was like, that's impossible. They don't have a UFO crash and live aliens walking through the town. No way. So I took 10 years before I even, like, almost 10 years before I would even, actually, it was over 10 years before I would even look into it. And then ended up spending about 12 years. But in any case, a UFO was spotted in trouble. It was a cylindrical shape, cylindrical shape

• 14:10Speaker 00

  object, like a cigar. It was like a aluminum kind of shape. No wings, no visible means of propulsion. It had, according to the witnesses that I interviewed, and they're all on camera, it had a gash in the back of it and it had sort of a white vapor coming out the backside. And it was definitely in trouble because all the people who claimed to have seen it said it was just, it was struggling to stay in the air. And then it eventually crashed. Two days later, in the town of Varginha, just a few miles away, people reported these strange creatures. And, and then there were two, according to the authorities and military people, the information that had leaked out and the researchers locally, two or three of the creatures were captured. And the second capture was involving

• 14:54Speaker 00

  a police officer by the name of Marco Cherez. And the, and the driver of that car, Ed, oh, sorry, Lopes, Eric Lopes. And Eric Cherez died within a couple of weeks of touching the creature. He manhandled it and took it to the local hospital. He got a weird infection and then died.

• 15:14Matt McCusker?

  Damn, dude, really?

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's true.

• 15:16Matt McCusker?

  Hey, no alien music. Sorry about that.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  So, so, so the only other living witness to that second capture was, was the driver, Eric Lopes, who's also a police officer.

• 15:31Matt McCusker?

  And he was, oh, so he was just driving, the other guy apprehended.

• 15:34Speaker 00

  Yeah, he was actually on duty that night and they were told him be on the lookout for some, something strange, something real strange. They didn't say live aliens or anything like that. They just be on the lookout. We're looking for something.

• 15:44Matt McCusker?

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• 15:47Speaker 02

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• 16:40Speaker 00

  So he calls his buddy, Marco, who was actually off that night, Marco Cherez, and he's like, hey, I got this weird assignment tonight. Like, they're saying there's something weird, something weird on the loose, or I don't know. You want to come with me? So they team up, he jumps in the car, off they go, they see it. It ran across the road in front of them, slammed the brakes on. Marco jumps out of the car, grabs the thing, puts it in the back of the car, takes it to Humant, Humantas Hospital.

• 17:04Matt McCusker?

  What'd they say it looked like?

• 17:05Speaker 00

  It was brown, you can look it up, Varginia creature. It was a, it had a big head, big red eyes. Um, it had brown, oily skin, frail, uh, weak, um, struggling, suffering.

• 17:19Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  All the witnesses said. And then Marco Sharizi had this like oily, greasy, he was like rubbing his body down with rubbing alcohol afterwards. And then he got this infection. We interviewed the doctors that worked on him. He died and they couldn't explain it. They were like, they'd never seen anything like that bacteria ever. Somehow his body just had no defense against it and he died. So the only living witness to that incident, that particular capture is Eric Lopes. So

• 17:46Matt McCusker?

  The driver.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  Yes. So I got in touch with the, with the, with the mayor. I, they actually interviewed the mayor of the town. This guy, Verge, Verge. And, um, and he was like, hey, is there anything I can do to help you guys? I believe this happened. I want to get the story out. I think the world needs to know. I was like, yeah, there is something you could do. Could you help me locate this guy Eric Lopes? He's been MIA for 26 years. And he was apparently driving the car. So we go to his house.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Really spooky, right? All the guys off the beaten path get to his house and, uh, oh, you got, yeah, that's the creature. That's

• 18:21Matt McCusker?

  Jesus, man.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  Yep, that's it. Mm hmm.

• 18:25Matt McCusker?

  Oh, fuck.

• 18:25Speaker 00

  Yep. That was, that was witnessed in broad daylight by three girls, uh, Valkyria, Liliani, and Katya. Two of them are sisters. Broad daylight. They got within 10 feet of that creature, uh, in broad daylight.

• 18:40Matt McCusker?

  Damn.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was crazy. So, uh, anyway, we get to Eric Lopes' house and he, I don't speak Portuguese, but he was like, apparently telling everyone, you know, get the hell out of there or he's going to start spraying bullets.

• 18:56Matt McCusker?

  What?

• 18:56Speaker 00

  And he said it like three or four times. And then I looked over at the guy, the translator, and he looked at me and he was just like this. Eric Lopes was looking out the window right above me and I was looking at his eyes going, God, that guy's seen something. I don't know. Man. He had looked like he was so burdened with, with something. You see it in his eyes. I'd never, I remember I'd never looked into someone's eyes that had that profound like. Like he was just burdened with something really.

• 19:20Matt McCusker?

  Did he look like afraid or he just looked kinda like just distant?

• 19:23Speaker 00

  He looked like he'd been shouldering something so profound, so deep, so deeply profoundly disturbing. And that he couldn't share it with anybody. That's what it looked like.

• 19:33Matt McCusker?

  Oh, man.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  But anyway, I was confused. But anyway, that was a second time, only, yeah, two times where I actually was like threatened.

• 19:40Matt McCusker?

  Threatened to be shot. Okay. Wow. Okay.

• 19:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, threatened to be shot.

• 19:43Matt McCusker?

  That's crazy. So you didn't even get to talk to the guy? He wouldn't talk?

• 19:46Speaker 00

  Well, funny enough, it's really funny actually, because he said, and you could see it in the movie. When we rolled up, he's like, if you're here to talk about the ET, Eric won't talk. And he referred to himself in the third person, which is weird. And then he was like, Eric's not here. And then it's like, I'm gonna start shooting right now. Bullets out of here. And I kept asking, I didn't know what he was saying. So I kept trying to get a question in, like to my translator. And the translator kept looking at me like, just chill, you know? And then finally he looked at me like, it's time to go. Like that look, you don't need to speak any language to get that look. It was like, we're leaving now, period. And I was like, shit, what's going on? Anyway, so, yeah, that was, that was.

• 20:23Matt McCusker?

  What do you think happened to him? Do you think he got inhabited or something?

• 20:26Speaker 00

  Well, just imagine for a moment, if he really was the driver that was involved in the capture of a live alien. Okay, just saying, believe it or unbelieve it, but if it did happen, and then your best friend dies.

• 20:39Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  And now the family and the world wants to know what happened and you can't talk. And because your life has been threatened, right? So you have to shoulder that burden for 26 years, right?

• 20:51Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  So if it happened, you can imagine how disturbing that was. You know, he's military intelligence. So, you know, he's armed to the teeth, I'm sure. And I would talk to some other fellow Brazilian UFO researchers, Ubudzaro Rodriguez. This guy Pacchini. And he's like, oh, yeah, back in 26 years ago, we wouldn't go near Eric Lopes. I was like, why not? He goes, everybody knew that guy was packing. He was just gonna open fire. I was like, well, now you guys tell me. Jesus Christ, I went to the guy's house. I probably almost got shot in the face.

• 21:18Matt McCusker?

  That would have sucked so bad.

• 21:20Speaker 00

  That would have been a real bummer.

• 21:21Matt McCusker?

  Oh, that would have sucked.

• 21:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So anyway, so coming off the heels of that, I, you know, because I did a film called The Phenomenon, right? Which covers the phenomenon from the 40s up to relatively modern day, 2017, 2020, whatever.

• 21:35Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  And then, then I naturally, the natural progression would have been to go on from the phenomenon to the program, which is out now, but I had unfinished business with this alleged UFO crash case. And so I went back to Brazil like a fifth time and I filmed Moment of Contact, right? And at the very end of it all, and I totally believed it. In fact, I remember taking one of the audio guys, he lived in Rio de Janeiro, and this guy Guy, and he goes, "Oh yeah, we heard about that story back 26 years ago. Ah, nobody believes it. It's like, you know, kind of like Roswell, you know."

• 22:09Matt McCusker?

  For sure, yeah.

• 22:09Speaker 00

  Then I took him on all the shoots and he was like, "Holy shit, this happened," you know? And I said, "Yeah, I wouldn't waste 12 years of my time if I didn't."

• 22:17Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 00

  So, at the last week or so of filming in Brazil, a flight control officer with the Brazilian military, because flight control, fire department, police, they're all connected to the military. He came forward and said, "Yeah, I saw the United States Air Force plane come in to land in Campinas," and then said to-

• 22:37Matt McCusker?

  Wait, what'd you say? What?

• 22:38Speaker 00

  So, it was confirmed the United States Air Force was involved with this UFO crash case.

• 22:45Matt McCusker?

  Okay.

• 22:45Speaker 00

  That the United States Air Force flew in to a place called Campinas, and then from Campinas-

• 22:51Matt McCusker?

  I know, I know.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  I know, Virginia and Campinas, right? Doesn't get any better than that. Can you believe it?

• 22:59Matt McCusker?

  I know.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Sorry.

• 23:01Matt McCusker?

  I thought my mind was just making tricks.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  I thought you might have known about this case. I'm sorry.

• 23:05Matt McCusker?

  No, Campinas and Virginia-

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Joe Rogan talked about it for a year.

• 23:07Matt McCusker?

  Virginia Campinas.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:09Matt McCusker?

  I wish I knew.

• 23:10Speaker 00

  I know, I know.

• 23:11Matt McCusker?

  So there's an alien invasion?

• 23:13Speaker 00

  Well, so-

• 23:13Matt McCusker?

  They probably thought it was the best place ever. They're like, "We gotta go to Campinas, Virginia."

• 23:20Speaker 00

  I know, you can't make this stuff up. I know.

• 23:22Matt McCusker?

  Okay, so what happened?

• 23:23Speaker 00

  So, so the last time I was there, after 12 years of filming on and off, a guy comes forward, and he was with flight control with the Brazilian government. Military and he's like, yeah, I was on duty that night and I saw this is January 20th, 1996 and I saw USAF come in and I was like, USAF, what's, oh, United States Air Force, USAF, flight come in and didn't have authorization to land. So he told some folks like, I can't, I can't let this guy land. You need authorization. And then a higher up stepped in the room and said, let him land. So he goes, yeah, this thing landed, then two helicopters, one or two helicopters were unloaded and they were flown to Virginia. They picked up some stuff,

• 24:05Speaker 00

  came back to the Campinas, loaded on the plane in the United States Air Force plane, back to the United States. Yeah. So that was when I became aware of the fact that wow, there probably is a crash retrieval program going on. So when I started doing, when I started doing the program, the film that's out now, it was almost personal for me, right? Because I, I had no idea, like I was on Joe Ruggan talking about moment of contact in April of 2023. Well, in July of 2023, the highest level intel officer, David Grush testified under oath to a bipartisan group of lawmakers that there is a crash retrieval program and he found it.

• 24:47Matt McCusker?

  Damn.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that's, so, so, so the program kind of covers this unprecedented push for transparency on what the intel agencies really know about the phenomenon, right?

• 25:00Matt McCusker?

  What kicked that off? I was curious about that. Like if it's, this is my thing. If things are really top secret, you have these giant kind of like, you know, mechanisms of power controlling and hiding things. I do find it funny that they're like, you swear you're telling the truth? And they're like, that you fucking got me, dude. Yes, I pinky promise. Like, it's a weird, it's a weird system we still do.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, well.

• 25:18Matt McCusker?

  It's like, you better tell the truth. And we're like, you got me.

• 25:20Speaker 00

  So, so people think that the government suddenly had an epiphany and decided to be more transparent on the UFO phenomenon. That's not what happened.

• 25:27Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, I doubt that.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, right. What happened was there were a couple of intel insiders, Christopher Mellon being one of them, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, along with Lou Elizondo and a handful of others, just small handful, that protested.

• 25:44Speaker 00

  Because of excessive secrecy, they found a loophole and walked some evidence from the Pentagon out on the front page of the New York Times, and that happened in December of 2017. So they can't put the genie back in the bottle, right? The more people keep coming forward now, more people coming forward, then Congress got, started getting wind. They were having behind the, behind doors meetings with some of these witnesses. And they were like, ooh, there's, there's a there there, wow. Then they had the first congressional hearing by a guy named Andre Carson, Congressman Andre Carson. That was 2022. They had a hint of a crash retrieval program that was revealed through a memo, the Davis Wilson memo.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Then they had congressional hearings in July of 2023, and that's when it was all out. David Grush said, yeah, we have a crash retrieval program. And then recently, just a month ago, we had more congressional hearings, which I attended. And Lou Elizondo, who ran ATIP or was one of the members on ATIP, he confessed under oath that there is a crash retrieval program.

• 26:48Matt McCusker?

  So, so they have been going around and scooping these things up? So there's things, so what do you say to people who are like, it's just super advanced military technology they're hiding from everybody?

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Well, if that's the case, that would be an even bigger story because somebody has kept it secret for over 80 years. So, wow, okay, that's cool.

• 27:04Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, no, I hear you.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  These things exhibit a technology that's just so beyond anything that we have in our arsenal.

• 27:10Matt McCusker?

  And what are the examples of like the technology that we can't really wrap our heads around?

• 27:14Speaker 00

  So you have objects that can hover without displaying any kind of visible means propulsion. They can accelerate from a standstill to out of sight in the blink of an eye, right angle turns at high speeds. No sonic boom, no air disturbance, very little noise. Sometimes you'll hear a slight buzzing or humming noise, but that's it, within certain proximity, some of the witnesses. And they fly rings around our fastest jets. I mean, like, they make a mockery of our fastest jets. I mean, you could just talk to David Fravor about that, 2003, off the coast of San Diego, so. And I think the big secret is they don't know what it is. I mean, they know it's engineered, right? They know it's technological, but there's a psychic component to it as well. So it would be very difficult for any governing body to come forward and say, hey, ladies and

• 27:59Speaker 00

  gentlemen, my fellow Americans, it has been brought to our attention that there are structured craft of unknown origin whizzing around with impunity. They fly rings around our fastest jets. We don't know who they are, where they come from, and if they turn out to be hostile, we have no visible means of defense against them. Thank you and good night.

• 28:16Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, true. That would everyone would be like, fuck this.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Everyone would be like, no. That's why right now, when they don't know what these drones are, they're calling them drones because drones is a little less scary than UAP, right? So they're calling them drones, but they're saying you have nothing to fear, and yet we don't know what the hell they are. So that's a little strange because how could you say what something isn't when you don't know what it is?

• 28:34Matt McCusker?

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• 29:09Matt McCusker?

  I mean, they want me to talk about the hunt for the perfect gift. Um, yeah, man, it is hard getting the perfect gift, and there's nothing better and selfless than just, you know, giving a photo of yourself to a person.

• 29:22Matt McCusker?

  No, you're giving a photo. I'm joking around. It's the holidays. Everyone's having a tough time. Please don't drop us, dude. Our corporate sponsors are mad right now. Guys, guys, it is nice to, your mother would love, your mother loves you so much, and your father, they just want to see your face. Just give them a picture of you and your brothers, dude, back when you were young and beautiful before you became old and decrepit. Um, yeah, so, you know, I, look, I love it. My mom has one. She loves seeing it. Hey, Bill, I'm recording advertisements, dude. I know you broke your leg, but please.

• 29:51Matt McCusker?

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• 30:35Matt McCusker?

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• 31:20Matt McCusker?

  you're saying, "This ad shouldn't have been a fucking minute long." So maybe I'm just wasting time and trying to get through a minute. But, guys, it is the holidays. People get sad. I get cheerful. I get full of holiday cheer. I love it. So, I'm not sad during the holidays. I like the holidays. But some of you get very sad. So, do what you need to do in terms of finding your supports. All right. You know what we all could use a little more of?

• 31:42Matt McCusker?

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• 32:23Matt McCusker?

  kick, which is very nice. Talk about what game slash activity you play with friends. Honestly, I like to talk about that. I thought I was being pretty open and candid, you know, with my branding partners, talking about what I was doing with my friends, but I don't know if they like my candid candidness or my candid nature. So I'm just gonna say, me and my friends, we drink Mountain Dew, we hype each other up, we watch the game, we watch the game with each other, and then our wives come over and um, I'm not gonna talk about wife swapping or anything like that with our corporate partners, but we just have a good time, dude, whatever, man, just fucking do you, bro. The mountain is calling, you should answer. Grab your friends, grab an ice cold Mountain Dew wherever refreshing beverages are sold and do the Dew. Yeah, it's also, yeah, it is deeply unsettling to be

• 33:08Matt McCusker?

  like, is, you know, human beings just have this idea, we're kind of like top dog in the universe. Yeah, it does threaten, it does threaten. I mean, I feel kind of weird. Like, what do you think the, I have two questions. What's the telepathic element you're talking about?

• 33:21Speaker 00

  I'll give you an example. And there's examples like this that go on for decades. But uh, so David Fravor, the encounter that took place, it's now commonly referred to as the Nimitz case. It was off the coast of San Diego in 2003. And he chased this tic tac looking object. And it was, it had no wings, no propulsion. It, it, it could hover. It was hovering right over the ocean. He could see it down below. There was two military jets that saw it. Got four people that got visual. Then they picked up on the radar and they chased after it. And as they were close, it, so the plane, the object was down on, by the, like just above the ocean's

• 34:04Speaker 00

  surface and it was darting around kind of like this. And Fravor said he was going to get a closer look at it at whatever altitude he was. So he started spiraling down to get a look, a closer look at it.

• 34:13Matt McCusker?

  Jesus.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  And the tic tac object starts spiraling up. So it was mimicking his mo, his movement, but backwards. So he's spiraling down, it's spiraling up. And then he decides to kind of do a maneuver and intercept it, like cut it off. He gets right at it. He goes, this is about a quarter of a mile. And he goes, that sounds kind of far away or half a mile, whatever it is, but in flight it's, it's very close.

• 34:32Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  No rivets, no seams, like what is this thing? And then he said it took off like you just, impossible. Like this, it performed, it did something that's just not even possible. And then it ended up at their, it's a strategic Latin launch that's, that's like predetermined before. I'm trying to think the, the technical name they use for that. But in any case, it just showed up right at that exact tactical spot at their Latin launch. It's like, and he said he had like the hair on the back of his neck stand up straight. Cause that was like it, basically like I'm, I'm, I'm five steps ahead of you guys.

• 35:06Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  I even know where your Latin launch is.

• 35:08Matt McCusker?

  Man.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, and, and again, there's, I could give you example after example.

• 35:14Matt McCusker?

  For sure. Yeah, no, that makes sense though. That's pretty crazy.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:17Matt McCusker?

  So what do you think are like the implications on like day to day, kind of like human thinking and affairs? Say it's just like, it's out, proven without, you know, uh, any sort of doubt or whatever. It's proven that there, there is like life forms that just dwarf our kind of technology and understanding of the universe. What do you think that does to human beings? Think that's a good, or you think they'll like spin people out or maybe, maybe make us be a little nicer knowing we have like other life forms watching us?

• 35:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. I think, I always felt that it would be a little scary, right? But that's okay. I mean, you know, reality is reality. It's been going on for a long time. It doesn't seem to be here to, to hurt us because. Others might argue with me on that point, but for the most part seems to be a fairly benign. I mean, there are other aspects of the phenomenon that one might argue is a little scary, but whatever. That's a whole nother arena.

• 36:04Matt McCusker?

  I would argue, sorry, I don't even cut you off.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, no, it's okay. Yeah, please.

• 36:06Matt McCusker?

  I would argue if they're that advanced, there's a huge chance they're not kind of like predaceous and like, you know what I mean? Because it'd be like, it'd be hard to be that advanced while you're still dealing with kind of like those more animal aggressive, like aggressive kind of instincts.

• 36:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:21Matt McCusker?

  You think it would like, it would implode, like human beings, like if we don't kind of get our kind of aggressive instincts under control, we might exactly, we might like blow ourselves up.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's really funny, actually. And to your point, I interviewed this guy, Robert Salas, who was a launch control officer during the height of the Cold War. And I think he was in charge of Minuteman missiles, but they were nuclear arms. And I'm not sure if it was Minot or anyways, one of these bases housing nuclear weapons. And objects were seen over the base, documented over the base, and then all of their vast majority of nuclear weapons went into a no-go situation. They were just shut off and they're all independently controlled. I reported about it in my film, The Phenomenon. And I talked to Salas about this and it was funny, I could see why he was a launch control officer because he's got this demeanor where he's just like super mellow and calm and just measured and just doesn't, you know, he's like, well, James,

• 37:13Speaker 00

  the message I got from that is almost like taking matches out of the hands of a baby. Maybe you shouldn't be playing with these things. Yeah. And I was like, wow, never thought of it that way.

• 37:25Matt McCusker?

  I never heard of that. So they all just deactivated?

• 37:27Speaker 00

  Yeah. Oh, there's 50 cases in my film, The Phenomenon. I literally did a deep dive in there with the help of this guy, Robert Asensio, who wrote the book on it. And yeah, you'll hear officer after officer after officer about incursions over military bases. They seem to be like, like some people would put it like a, like a, like a moth to a flame. Like anytime there's nukes around, the phenomenon kind of just comes around, check it out. Yeah.

• 37:52Matt McCusker?

  Wow.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:54Matt McCusker?

  Damn, that's crazy.

• 37:55Speaker 00

  Yeah. Senator Harry Reid, former Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, gave me an interview, I think it was like 2019. And he was the one that started this, one of the key people that started this. UFO investigation, ATIP, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program. Before that, it was OSAP. But in any case, I asked him, it went on for 10 years. It was never meant to go public. But again, people had protested from the inside from excessive secrecy and walked some evidence out of the Pentagon on the front page of the New York Times. And it went on for 10 years. It was found out in like 27, at the end of 2017. It started around 20, sorry, 2008, 2007, something like that. And I said, what was some of the more astonishing aspects of the phenomenon that you learned

• 38:39Speaker 00

  during that 10-year Pentagon investigation? And he goes, right away, just like that, he goes, they're interested in our nukes. And I was like, oh, whoa, I'd heard about that a little bit. So we did a whole segment on it within the phenomenon of, yeah.

• 38:54Matt McCusker?

  Wow. That's pretty crazy.

• 38:56Speaker 00

  Yeah. And there are a lot of incursions going on, military bases all over the place still. So, I don't know. I think it's a far more complex issue than one might, you know, gather.

• 39:06Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, true.

• 39:07Speaker 00

  It doesn't have like one easy explanation. I've been doing this 30 years and I don't know what the hell's going on.

• 39:12Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, it's one of those things that does-

• 39:13Speaker 00

  I wish I did.

• 39:14Matt McCusker?

  It kind of dwarfs the perceived power of governments, where you're like, you know, the United States, where, you know, we have all these missiles or like the, you know, cutting edge of technology. Then you see something that's so much more advanced, if it, you know, if it's really buzzing around, kind of like the, it makes the government less authoritative almost. So you're kind of like, all right, dude, like-

• 39:32Speaker 00

  I thought it would have a unifying effect on all of humanity, quite honestly. I mean, if there's an outside force, I mean, Reagan had talked about it, but he used more of his threat. But if you have something that's, I think it would unify us.

• 39:44Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 39:45Speaker 00

  Excuse me, I remember interviewing Apollo astronaut Edgar Mitchell. And he was Apollo 14, sixth man to walk on the moon. And he was, he said, on the way to the moon, and he was so caught up in all the data, and he might as well have been a simulator, but coming back-

• 40:01Speaker 00

  He got to kind of really just look at the earth and look at what he and really feel what he was doing. He was hurling through this little tin can through the vastness of space and darkness. And he goes, you don't know dark until you've been into space. Like it's just, it's a vacuum out there. And he goes, I looked at earth and I watched it slowly getting bigger and bigger and all those invisible lines. I didn't see any territories and I was imagining all the wars that were taking place and all this. And he really felt, not just saw, but felt like humankind as one, one race, one, you know what I mean? One people kind of thing. And, and I think that this reality will help accelerate that, in my opinion.

• 40:39Matt McCusker?

  I, I think it's a good thing. We get a lot of people who start being like, they're trying to use this to start up a new world government and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like.

• 40:45Speaker 00

  I don't think they have control of it. I really don't.

• 40:47Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, I, I, yeah, I would, I would argue.

• 40:50Speaker 00

  Someone who's investigated all around the world for 30 years.

• 40:52Matt McCusker?

  There's no way.

• 40:53Speaker 00

  I don't think that we're, no, I think that they're, they're doing what they're doing.

• 40:56Matt McCusker?

  True. And it's one of those things where it's like, if they're, say, just say, for, you know, argument sake, say there were some just human beings who are so powerful, they were engineering these kind of crafts. It's like, well, guess what? They're gonna do whatever they want, you know, whatever. But yeah, I, I think that's awesome, man. I think it's pretty cool. And I think it is a, I don't know. I think it's good for people to have kind of shocks to their system. And I think the UAP kind of like reality of our life forms, there's a good shock to the system in a way.

• 41:21Speaker 00

  I mean, if you look at the program, you'll see, refreshingly, you'll see a bipartisan effort. You'll see Democrats and Republicans working together, being civil and like really trying to get to the bottom of it. And I love that.

• 41:35Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  About that. This, it's, it's uniting Congress and our, and our elected officials, no question about it. You're looking at AOC with Tim Burchett being really kind to each other and calling each other colleagues. And, and it's very, I love, I love that. I think we need more of it.

• 41:50Matt McCusker?

  Yeah. Yeah. Cause you can get so into your like hometown versus the country, you know, you're like ants on a hill. You're like, this is this huge place. Then yeah, you get a cosmic perspective and you're like, oh, fucking, yeah, that's nothing.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  They should send all politicians into space.

• 42:02Matt McCusker?

  They should. That'd be awesome.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  Or just give them a ton of LSD.

• 42:05Matt McCusker?

  There you go. Either or. Sure.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  Is it possible that this is in it's us, but an ancient civilization like if Elon Musk or Bill Gates or something happened now, they was going to their bunkers and they have huge bunkers and their civilization would grow for thousands of years. Everybody else on top, we decelerate and we become back to cavemen. And now 12,000 years later, they're finally coming to the surface again, but it's us just a more advanced civilization that was able to keep going.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  I've heard that theory and one of the things that I'm coming to terms with is that all options are on the table as far as I'm concerned. I mean, I've heard interdimensional, I've heard future, coming back from the future. I've heard interplanetary, I've heard they're right here all along, down in our oceans and in, you know, specific locations around the world. And I can't say no to any of them. I have to keep all options on the table. And I one, at one point jokingly says I have a huge universe. I said, you know, maybe it's all the above. Maybe it's not just one race. Maybe it's a number of different things.

• 43:15Speaker 00

  It's one of the reasons why I showed some incredible Hubble telescope photography from space and galaxies. And one photograph in particular from NASA is they look like almost stars. There's so many of them, but then they, you realize they're not stars. You're looking at galaxies and each one of those galaxies has like 400 billion stars. Right? And it's like, and you're looking at all these pinpoints of light and those are all galaxies. And you're thinking, you gotta be kidding me. That's just incomprehensibly big, right? It's like, and we're just like, there's more stars, there's 10,000 times more great stars

• 43:58Speaker 00

  than there are grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. It's like 10,000 times.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  So you can't even wrap your head around it.

• 44:04Speaker 00

  It's getting bigger by the day. And now they're talking about multiverses and stuff. It's like God only knows, man. Like, sometimes it's like, my mind hurts thinking about it. Like I just, I don't know, man. Sometimes when I think about the vastness and like how it keeps going on and if it doesn't last, if it doesn't, if it's not infinite. Then where does it stop?

• 44:22Matt McCusker?

  This is the thing that fucks me up. It has to be infinite because if it were to stop, it can only stop by a sort of border. There'd have to be something on the other edge of the border. So it has to be by definition infinite.

• 44:32Speaker 00

  So insane.

• 44:33Matt McCusker?

  It'll, the universe really rule, is like ruled by like dream logic. That's the only place a thing can be infinite and non-infinite is in a dream.

• 44:40Speaker 00

  It.

• 44:41Matt McCusker?

  Don't get me started, dude. I saw it freaking out the Uber last night.

• 44:43Speaker 00

  It blows my mind. Seriously. I'm just like.

• 44:47Matt McCusker?

  But you know what I'm talking about though? It has to be infinite because if it were finite, there'd be a bordering edge and there'd have to be some physical thing on, you can't have something that borders that doesn't have another side of it. So it can't be border, it has to be infinite, otherwise.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  I, I remember one time thinking to myself, like, I have no idea why I'm here. What, what the hell's going on?

• 45:04Matt McCusker?

  I do that every day.

• 45:05Speaker 00

  I don't think we're here to hate each other.

• 45:07Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  That does, that's one thing I feel like, you know, come on.

• 45:11Matt McCusker?

  Yeah. Well, it doesn't feel good in your body. That's what I've been doing. It's like, people say like, you know, oh, you know, this is, this is crazy. It's all airy fairy talk. It's like, well, dude, if you like, just assume where these kind of like struggling animals with nothing other than animal instincts and our whole sense of consciousness is like, you know, just wafting off these, it's just like this nonsense that's wafting off our instincts. It's like to take that worldview hurt, it literally hurts your body.

• 45:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:37Matt McCusker?

  So it's like, yeah, I, I agree with you, but I think if you kind of open yourself up to like the kind of cosmic scale, becoming a, basically a cosmic patriot rather than your country or, well, you know, people be bad at me for that like, but you can like your country, but also be like, I'm also a citizen of the universe.

• 45:50Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 45:51Matt McCusker?

  Opening yourself up to that scale. It feels good.

• 45:53Speaker 00

  I remember asking Edgar Mitchell, it was really funny because we're in the middle of talking about UFOs and he like, kind of grew up in Roswell, excuse me, the surrounding areas. And so he knew all the ranchers from back in the late 40s, early 50s, actually even earlier than that. And I was like, God, I'm so sorry to ask this question of you because I'm sure you get asked this all the time. What was it like to go to the moon? You know? And he's like, well, James, if you'd like, I'll, I'll tell you, you know? And, and so I got such a detailed description of what it was like, right down to when they landed on the lunar surface, they, they were hearing these macro meteorite, meteorites pelting the skin of their craft. And they've been up basically for three days and NASA's like, you guys

• 46:35Speaker 00

  need to go to sleep. And they were like, oh no, man, I want to, we, they tried to go to sleep and then they were too excited. They were like, told NASA, we're, we're overriding your recommendations. We're going to, we're putting our suits on, we're going.

• 46:47Matt McCusker?

  But so they were up for three days straight and they were just like,

• 46:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, and they didn't, they couldn't sleep. They were on the lunar surface and he said they put their suits on and they went out there. And he's walking around the lunar surface and he says he sees off in the distance, this blue marble. I love sharing this story because it's so crazy. This blue marble suddenly rise, it was an earth rise from the moon. And he said, there it was, this oasis of life in suspended in the darkness of space, the vacuum of space, such a hostile environment around it, right? And there it rose and he had these big gloves on and he put up one hand and he blocked out the entire earth, right? From the lunar surface. And he's like, all that I know, all that I've learned, all the borders, all the people, and I'm blocking it out with one hand.

• 47:30Matt McCusker?

  Damn.

• 47:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, isn't that cool?

• 47:31Matt McCusker?

  Wait, so the earth rises when you're on the moon?

• 47:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, he said it was an earth rise. Yeah, it was an earth rise. Yeah.

• 47:36Matt McCusker?

  That's so fucking cool. That's so cool.

• 47:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, and he was like, it was like a blue marble. Like you said, suspended in a vastness. He goes, you don't understand the vacuum of space until you've been there. Like it's dark, it's hostile and there's this oasis, this life oasis. And yeah, really.

• 47:52Matt McCusker?

  It does suck and it sucks to waste it just being

• 47:55Speaker 00

  Oh, my gosh.

• 47:56Matt McCusker?

  Fucking miserable dick.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  It's all we got.

• 47:57Matt McCusker?

  I know, and I'm guilty of that. I can be a miserable dickhead, but it's like, it really is, especially when you look at it. It's like, if you look at the scale and then you get into like the, the math behind, like what are the, if they go, God, it all happened by chance. Well, what is like the mathematical probability of that? And it's, it's, it's like literally, if you were a math person, you'd be like, well, yeah, my own math proves that this happening for no reason is so statistically improbable.

• 48:22Speaker 00

  It's crazy.

• 48:23Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, and they go, well, it's because the universe is infinite and that anything can happen. It's like, okay. All right. Yeah, that's cool.

• 48:29Speaker 00

  You know, I wonder sometimes if we just like, I used to think back when I first started this. Cause I was like, I would go into the field. I wouldn't just read books or go to conferences. I would actually go to locations and meet with witnesses on UFO sightings all over the place. And so I knew the phenomenon was real. I mean, unless everybody I was talking to, including pilots and FAA officials and civilians and governors all line.

• 48:55Speaker 00

  I was like, well, maybe, you know, it's such a big universe, you know, the galaxy, whatever, Milky Way, we probably just get periodic visitation. For whatever reason, the government's decided to cover it up. That's what I thought. But now, all these years later, I'm like, oh, my gosh, now I feel like I know less today than I did when I started.

• 49:15Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 49:15Speaker 00

  Because, like you said, like, could it be time travelers? Yes, it could. Could it be interdimensional? Yes, it could. Could it be interplanetary? Sure could. Why not? Yeah.

• 49:24Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, Tucker Carlson now is like.

• 49:26Speaker 00

  He's freaked out.

• 49:27Matt McCusker?

  He's like, and he's like, big on the interdimensional thing.

• 49:30Speaker 00

  I'm done.

• 49:30Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, he's, he's like, out of nowhere.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  He tapped out.

• 49:33Matt McCusker?

  He got off a fox and he was just, next thing you know, it's just like, there's interdimensional entities, blah, blah, blah. And everyone's like, what the fuck?

• 49:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I know. He tapped out.

• 49:40Matt McCusker?

  What do you, what do you mean he tapped out?

• 49:41Speaker 00

  He's not doing the UAP anymore.

• 49:42Matt McCusker?

  He just doesn't even want to talk about it.

• 49:44Speaker 00

  He learned certain things and he's like, we're done. I'm not doing this. And it's funny, actually, because one of the things that Senator Harry Reid said to me was that they were just trying to get some of these senators to look at the data, look at the evidence, and they were so dismissive of, they said, it's demonic, and I'm not going to engage with that. So because they couldn't explain it, or for whatever reason, it was just written off. So there's that wing of the, of the elected officials that have looked at it that way. I don't know if they're still looking at it that way, but they were like, it's demonic, and we don't want anything to do with it. I'm not even going to look at it.

• 50:20Matt McCusker?

  Damn.

• 50:21Speaker 00

  That's what he told me.

• 50:22Matt McCusker?

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 00

  And even people within the Pentagon saying that.

• 50:25Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, I mean, it makes, it makes sense. If you're, especially if you're like, you know, an older man, and typically politicians, and I would say even more so like military people, a lot of them are sort of kind of like a rigid, kind of like, you know, insulated and like, not like they're, not saying like they're egoic, but it is like, they have a very kind of top-down way of thinking. And like, stuff like this is just like, there's no time for it.

• 50:44Speaker 00

  You know, one of the people in the, part of the UAP task force, I'm not sure what year he was involved, but his name is Len Val Logan, great guy. And um, he goes, you know, it's crazy. He goes, uh, we pick up a Russian make or something on the radar and it's all hands on deck. And yet, when it doesn't have any markings on it, we can't identify it. It's like, nothing to see here, folks. It's like, it's like, he's like, well, how could that be? What? Like, like, if it had a Russian flag or a Chinese flag, it would be all hands on deck. Yeah. Because it doesn't have that, it's flying rings around, we can't stop it, control it, whatever. They just, it's like, nothing to see here, folks. Yeah.

• 51:24Matt McCusker?

  Oh, that's kind of nuts.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  That's what he said. Yeah.

• 51:26Matt McCusker?

  There's gotta be some sort of directive. Like I said, if you're military, there's, there's rules for everything. So it'd be like, yeah, we'll get that.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  He's like, how can that be? I was like, it's a great quote. It's one of the quotes in the credit. I always like to, um, like I, when I'm editing a film, I'll get a lot of what are called GMs or golden moments. And I, and I always like, I always paint those, I color those like a gold color. And then I, I put them, if I can't find a place for them in the movie, I tuck them aside in my GM, you know, basket. And then at the end of the film, I'll go, oh, God, I really, can I squeeze these in somewhere? And if I can't squeeze them in, one time I was like, why don't I just sprinkle them throughout the credits? So now, I always love doing that. What I'll do is, I'll get my little GMs and that moment with Len Val Logan, who's part of the UAP Task Force, he's sprinkled in the credits at the end. So

• 52:15Matt McCusker?

  That's awesome.

• 52:15Speaker 00

  If you do watch the program, watch it all the way through to the end, because there's lots of cool stuff sprinkled throughout the credits.

• 52:20Matt McCusker?

  That's awesome, man.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:21Matt McCusker?

  That's good. That is a good idea.

• 52:22Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:23Matt McCusker?

  Damn, man. So what, we'll, we'll wrap this up. I think this has been awesome, by the way. Thank you.

• 52:26Speaker 00

  Oh, cool. Thanks.

• 52:27Matt McCusker?

  My question is, so say if somebody, you know, the biggest doubting Thomas or one of the, you know, if someone pretty closed minded, like, I don't even want to think about this stuff. Do you have like one kind of like silver bullet you'd be like, check this out? Or would you just?

• 52:39Speaker 00

  Um, I would have to say that.

• 52:44Speaker 00

  If you watch the program and you still think there's nothing to it, I think that's gonna be nearly impossible. I really do.

• 52:52Matt McCusker?

  Okay.

• 52:52Speaker 00

  Just because of the bipartisan effort, the congressional hearings, people testifying under oath, some of the video photographic cases and radar. And look, you know, the DOD is, you know, begrudgingly admitting that the phenomenon's real. They're not lying anymore about that.

• 53:08Matt McCusker?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:09Speaker 00

  Right? I mean, they're trying to control how this stuff comes out, but it's happening. It's coming out, okay? So you one can speculate all day long as to where it's coming from and what's its objective or agenda. That's up for speculation, but the phenomenon is real and it defies a conventional explanation.

• 53:30Matt McCusker?

  Awesome. Dude, thank you so much.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Appreciate it.

• 53:32Matt McCusker?

  Thanks for doing this, man.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 53:33Matt McCusker?

  Watch the program. Thank you, James.

• 53:34Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 53:35Matt McCusker?

  Later on.