Pod Insights Masters of Scale World Cup kickoff: Goals, greed, and geopolitics, with ESPN’s Sam Borden About this episode As the World Cup kicks off this Thursday, scrutiny surrounds ticket prices, disrupted fan travel, potential ICE activity, and FIFA’s murky dealings. ESPN Global Sports Correspondent Sam Borden has covered this tournament from Brazil to Qatar, and he joins Rapid Response to break down the USA's real chance, what Iran's presence on American soil actually means, and whether hosting the world's biggest sporting event is a blessing or a liability right now. Plus, Borden makes the most passionate case you'll hear for why the World Cup matters more than any scoreline.
Correction: A government official proposed that Brazil’s Arena de Amazonia be used as a detention facility, but that plan was never enacted.
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1:43 Speaker 01 To me, the World Cup is, in a lot of ways, the great equalizer among the massive disparity that exists in the way that people live day to day around the world. I like imagining a thing where for a couple of hours, or a couple of weeks, or a month, everybody just wants the same thing. Everybody just wants a goal. Everybody wants a win. Everybody wants to dream another day of like, how far they could go. I find some beauty in that, and I like the simplicity it offers.
2:22 Speaker 02 That's Sam Borden, Global Sports Correspondent for ESPN and an investigative reporter who helped crack open corruption inside World Cup organizer FIFA. Sam has had an insider's view on the most impactful storylines and inflection points at World Cups from Brazil to Qatar. Today, we dig into this year's tournament, which kicks off Thursday. From Team USA's prospects to controversy around ticket prices and more, this is part one of our two-part dive into the World Cup. On Friday's episode, I sit down with U.S. Soccer Federation CEO J.T. Batson. That conversation will be available exclusively on Rapid Response, so for Masters of Scale listeners, be sure to click over and listen.
3:07 Speaker 02 For now, enjoy the passion and bite of ESPN's Sam Borden. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.
3:22 Speaker 02 Sam, thanks so much for being here.
3:24 Speaker 01 Thanks for having me, Bob. I appreciate it.
3:27 Speaker 02 So, the World Cup is finally upon us. U.S. hosting alongside Canada and Mexico. It's going to be hard to match the drama of the last World Cup with Lionel Messi leading Argentina to victory. Are you rooting for Argentina to repeat, or are you all USA all the time?
3:45 Speaker 01 You know, Bob, I would say that the big secret of my life that I'll share with you if you promise not to tell anybody else. Despite being a sports journalist for over 20 years, I am actually not that big a sports fan. You know, I love the drama and the stories and the emotion that goes with big-time sporting events and, you know, courage and overcoming adversity. But I have to say that I am not particularly invested one way or the other in what team wins or loses. I do have a little bit of a soft spot for France because we lived in France for a few years and my girls, you know, kind of got into the French national
4:30 Speaker 01 team. But generally speaking, I root for games to end on time and me to get home, me to get home as quickly as I can.
4:40 Speaker 02 Well, you've covered global soccer as a game and as a business across 40-some countries. So I want to ask you about some of the societal and cultural impacts that swirl around this year's games. First, though, have you seen Nike's new rip the script video for the World Cup? The star-studded video, have you seen it yet?
5:01 Speaker 01 No, I don't think I've seen that one. But it is really interesting to see how invested the business world gets in soccer every four years, particularly in this country, where for the intervening four years, it's a little bit like the Olympics. You know, it's like for a month every four years, it's the biggest thing in the world. You see all of these activations and, you know, corporate opportunities around this sport that for the other three years and 11 months, oftentimes struggles to make the same kind of an impact.
5:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, the business of the World Cup is for real, right? For sponsors, for sports brands, for media companies, for athletes, too. I mean, there's a lot of money at stake.
5:43 Speaker 01 Yeah, no question. It's funny, in meetings we've had at ESPN, we've talked a lot about what we're calling four-year fans. And I include like my wife and many of my friends in this category of like, they're going to be locked in when the US is playing on Friday in Los Angeles against Paraguay. They're going to be locked in on that game like there's nothing else happening in the world. But if you were to ask them literally a month from now, hey, what about the US soccer team? The recall and the ability to speak intelligently about that team would not exist at all.
6:19 Speaker 02 And if the US team like doesn't perform that well, will the World Cup then have to fight for attention in the US? I mean, because it's not a sport that's traditionally embraced here, the way basketball and baseball and other sports have been.
6:33 Speaker 01 For sure. And I think you've seen over really like the last 20 years, you know, the last generation or so, you have seen a very steady rise in terms of interest, TV ratings. But there's also no question that Particularly for this World Cup where it's taking place in North America, how the US does will drive to what level of history it makes in terms of ratings and interest. If the US can get beyond sort of the typical they've done, which would be like a round of 16 appearance. If they can make a quarterfinal in a home World Cup, I think you're going to see some astronomical viewing numbers and engagement numbers.
7:16 Speaker 01 If they go out in the group stage, it's going to be a big bummer for the entire tournament. There's no question.
7:21 Speaker 02 This year's World Cup has this sort of novel three-country hosting plan across the US, Canada and Mexico. The relationships between these countries right now are a little tense in terms of tariffs and trade and immigration. Will that show up in how the tournament is run? I mean, it's a complicated event, you know, whatever. 104 Super Bowls in 39 days, someone calls it?
7:48 Speaker 01 You know, obviously, obviously there is this unusual, and as you said, you know, ever-changing dynamic in terms of like politics and trade that exists between these North American countries. They're also massive rivals in soccer. You know what I mean? The US's biggest rival is Mexico in soccer, and their rivalry with Canada over the last 10 years or so has grown exponentially. Canada is a much bigger player on the world stage now than they ever were a generation ago. I mean, they have as much of a chance to make a deep run as the US or Mexico in this tournament. So there is that competitiveness within like the sporting component.
8:31 Speaker 01 But then when you add in what is happening in the world, there is no question that it will make things a little bit more difficult. I think the one thing that people often don't necessarily understand about the way that the World Cup is operated is that, I think it was eight years ago, FIFA, which is the organization that runs kind of the World Cup and global soccer, they switched away from the previous model where World Cups were operated by local organizing committees. So, you know, in 1994, when the World Cup was in America the last time, there was a US-based company that was created, the Local Organizing Committee, and their job was to put on the World Cup.
9:14 Speaker 01 Like, they made all of the decisions about ticketing, stadiums, scheduling. FIFA basically was just sort of like, here's the teams that have qualified. Here is, you know, some money that we set aside to run the World Cup. You guys put on the World Cup. And about eight years ago, FIFA switched away from that model. And now FIFA runs the World Cup. They created a subsidiary in America. And so to your question about how will the relationship between the US, Mexico and Canada affect the running of the tournament? I think the short answer is that a generation ago, if this happened, it would have been a massive impact.
9:55 Speaker 01 All of those questions about trade and commerce would have really played a lot bigger part than what we're going to see in this particular iteration. Because FIFA is running the tournament. FIFA is making the decisions, and we've, I'm sure we'll talk about it, when it comes to ticketing, which has been a huge, huge controversy. All of that is being run through FIFA. That's not run through any company that's based in the US, Mexico and Canada.
10:18 Speaker 02 And so the, the price of the tickets, or like the naming rights. I mean, I've seen some of the stadiums be sort of have their names taken. All of those decisions are made by FIFA.
10:29 Speaker 01 That's correct. FIFA, despite being a nonprofit, is very good. And their president, Gianni Infantino, is very, very good about finding revenue opportunities, stretching a dollar, soaking or sucking as much financial reward out of any circumstance as possible. And so like to your point, the ticketing platform is run by FIFA. And not only are the Face value prices, which are astronomical to begin with for these tickets, not only are those set by FIFA, but they have also created their own resale platform, where they take a 15% commission on every purchase and every sale.
11:12 Speaker 01 Like, they're taking a commission off both sides of these resales, in addition to the commission they take off and the revenue they take off from the ticket being sold the first time, and they're monetizing all of that.
11:24 Speaker 02 Your investigative reporting of FIFA has been memorable. You were onsite in Zurich in 2015 during the infamous raid and arrests of FIFA officials at a Swiss hotel. For listeners who are less familiar, can you quickly recap like what you uncovered, what the situation was then, and whether FIFA has changed much since then?
11:47 Speaker 01 Sure. It's actually funny. Here, I'll show you a little, we'll do a little prop because I keep on my desk, this is a pen from the Borrelach Hotel in Switzerland, in Zurich, which is where those arrests happened in 2015. And essentially what happened was a bunch of the highest level executives in FIFA were arrested and caught up in a DOJ, Department of Justice investigation around corruption, bribe-taking, vote trading, racketeering, all types of financial crimes that were rooted essentially in power and influence in global soccer.
12:29 Speaker 01 The reason that the World Cup was in Qatar in 2022 and the reason, for example, that Fox is broadcasting the 2026 World Cup at a fairly bargain price is because the awarding of the 2018 and 22 World Cups to Russia and Qatar, those votes were largely bought. Since then, I would say that FIFA's structure has changed considerably. A number of the allegedly corrupt politicians either went to jail or faced serious ethics violations and penalties within kind of global sport. So there are a number of new people that are involved. But there's also no question that
13:14 Speaker 01 FIFA and the way that it operates is still among the most murky global organizations you would ever want to know about. And I think we're seeing some of the ramifications of that. They do largely operate with impunity. They own the World Cup and they want to set their ticket prices at whatever they want to set them for. They can. They want to make Hard Rock Stadium in Miami be known as Miami Stadium. They can.
13:40 Speaker 02 It is a fascinating paradox, right? That FIFA has been sort of arguably one of the most despised organizations in global sport, and yet its signature event is the most watched on the planet. Does FIFA's reputation matter? Or it doesn't seem to?
13:57 Speaker 01 No, it doesn't. As much as I'm proud of the reporting that I and my colleagues at the New York Times did in 2015, and for sure it led to some material change, certainly for the people who were involved. I'm not sure that it makes a huge difference in the overarching sentiment around soccer. It's by far the most popular sport in the world. The Men's World Cup is by far the most popular tournament or event in the world when it comes to sports. And I think that it's going to take a lot for that to ever change. And certainly some rich guys getting richer. For most sports fans, I'm not sure that's going to resonate, you know?
14:38 Speaker 02 The World Cup's magic isn't just the soccer. It's the, it's the vuvuzelas. It's, it's the sort of raucous fan energy.
14:45 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:46 Speaker 02 The, the high ticket prices this year. The cheapest ticket for the, I think the group stage I saw in LA was like $400 plus. The US game, I mean, it starts at 1,200 and I know they're selling for, for way more than that now.
15:00 Speaker 01 It's a total shame because one of the things that is amazing about the World Cup, every World Cup that I've been to, whether in Brazil, Russia, Qatar, or here, the fans are what make it what it is. The fans are what make it special. Not just the atmosphere in the stadium, but just the cultural mixing, you know, walking around the souk in Doha and seeing Moroccans going, you know, crazy in one direction and, you know, Argentines coming in the other direction and you've got Colombian. I mean, like, it's just- It's such a wonderful sort of moment of connection that people all over the world can have with each other over this shared event. And to your point, I think one of the
15:44 Speaker 01 grand shames of a World Cup that is spread quite as widely as this one is from, you know, Canada to Mexico and all over the United States, is that you're not going to have those moments. There's not going to be that same kind of crisscrossing of culture.
16:00 Speaker 02 There's not that core, that central hub isn't the same.
16:03 Speaker 01 Yeah. If you've never been to a World Cup match, I'm not trying to tell anybody how to spend their money, but like, it is a really amazing thing. It is different than going to a Super Bowl. And so when I see stories or I hear from fan supporter groups who are saying, I mean, even the American outlaws who have been so devoted to supporting the US teams, you know, they're not sure how many people they're going to be able to get into the building, how many tickets they're going to be able to get from FIFA, from US Soccer, if they can afford it, if their members can afford it, like, it's just a bummer. And that's US fans in their home country. You know, it's going to be even more difficult for a fan coming from Uzbekistan, who has been waiting his entire life to see
16:45 Speaker 01 his team in the World Cup, and now may or may not be able to afford to even see that happen. To me, to be honest, it's the thing that bums me out the most about all of the stories that we've seen in the run up to this event, because it really is, it kind of cuts to the heart of what makes the World Cup special.
17:02 Speaker 02 There are some stories that soccer fans are said to be fearful of traveling to the US because of immigration actions and travel visa restrictions. How real is that?
17:16 Speaker 01 I think it's real. I was fortunate to live in Europe for many years, you know, working for The Times. And so I have a lot of friends, you know, who still live in Europe or around the world and who talk to me about, okay, well, what is the experience like about coming to America? Let me tell you about what it was like to have my phone searched when I arrived in America, as they're looking at my social media history. What is it like to be here when there's an ice raid in the city where I'm staying? How does that feel to be around that? And so I do think that it has a material impact. There was some tumult earlier this year about immigration agents potentially
17:57 Speaker 01 working at matches, which has kind of fallen out of the headlines. Has that plan shifted? Or we're just not hearing about it? It sounds like there certainly will be an ICE presence around World Cup cities and venues. The government has said that there won't be active targeting, there won't be active activity. I, like many journalists or people, you know, you sort of take all of that with a grain of salt. Like, I, there's a little bit of a like, I'll believe it when I see it, you know? And so, will there be ICE activity? Will there be protests? Will there be standoffs between law enforcement and fans? Like, my gut tells me yes. And for
18:39 Speaker 01 what it's worth, Bob, I mean, I covered the World Cup in 2014 in Brazil, and there was incredible civil unrest amongst protesters in Brazil at that time. And I was in Sao Paulo when there were anti-government protests and police were firing rubber bullets, you know, on the day of matches. Like, it happens everywhere. This is not an America-only problem. I think what makes it a little bit different in this circumstance is that, A, America is the most visible country in the world, and the, you know, sort of media presence here is greater than anywhere else. And then, B, America is, I think, a little bit like
19:20 Speaker 01 more on the fulcrum of what instability, you know, the sort of Western world feels, generally speaking. And so, it's different when you see, you know, another protest in Brazil versus when you see it happening, say, in downtown Los Angeles. Does FIFA have particular rules for, for teams, for, you know, players about what they can and can't do, you know, on the field to make a statement? Do they have very strict rules and the protocols around uniforms? I mean, even something small like this, Bob, I'll tell you about it. It was a controversy in Qatar at the last World Cup.
20:00 Speaker 01 One of the issues that got a lot of attention in Qatar was the intolerance towards the LGBTQ community that existed in Qatar and many countries in the Middle East. And so, a number of teams, I remember it started, I think, with The captain of the England team, Harry Kane, wanted to wear, instead of the typical armband that a captain would wear that says like captain on it, he wanted to wear a rainbow armband in support of the LGBTQ community while the World Cup was being played in Qatar. And that was a huge controversy. FIFA said, look, we are very, are very focused on having
20:40 Speaker 01 no political statements anywhere around our field of play. And there were rules handed down about if you wear a rainbow armband in violation of our rule, you will receive a yellow card during the game, which is a big deal, you know? And so ultimately, some kind of compromise was worked out and there were some very generic language put on the captain's armbands that were not rainbow, but said like, you know, peace for all or whatever, whatever the generic pablum you could imagine is what it was. But to your point, they're very strict about political statements on the field. If somebody were
21:23 Speaker 01 to lift up a jersey and there was a T-shirt underneath that said Free Palestine, for example, there would be serious ramifications for sure.
21:30 Speaker 02 In Qatar, the political culture is less, less open to dissent than, than here in the US, but it sounds like there are similar, maybe not identical, but similar concerns and restrictions.
21:44 Speaker 01 I mean, it's a month-long tournament with 48 teams. There's a lot of press opportunities, right? I mean, before every single match, there's a press conference with generally the star or captain of the team and the coach from that team. And as much as FIFA might like to control the press conferences, there are going to be questions asked where players from international teams are going to be offered the opportunity to speak about the United States. And in the same way that players on the US team were asked about Qatar's lack of tolerance or attitudes towards women, and I know that they were because I was in those press conferences and heard those questions asked, I would I would imagine that there's going to be no shortage of opportunities for foreign
22:28 Speaker 01 players to take shots at America, our president, our government, our policies, our immigration approach, whatever. And so I'll be really curious to see how FIFA responds to that and just sort of how the news media in America treats what I would imagine will be a fairly steady stream of criticisms of what's going on in this country at this time.
22:53 Speaker 02 With so much global scrutiny on the US politically right now, this World Cup comes at a tricky time. Is it the best time to hold a World Cup or the worst? And what does it mean to host a World Cup while at war with one of the competing nations? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.
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25:06 Speaker 02 Before the break, ESPN's Sam Borden talked about World Cup ticket prices, FIFA's murky financial role, and the stakes for Team USA. Now, he talks about Iran's participation in the World Cup and the cost benefit trade off of being a host country, plus his impassioned case for why the tournament means more than what happens on the pitch. Let's dive back in. I wanted to ask you about Iran's World Cup team. You know, coming to the US in the midst of armed conflict, I know FIFA declined to restrict the team from competing. What sort of reception might they get at their matches if they come? Are there any like, I don't know, Trump wildcard concerns that people are talking about?
25:50 Speaker 01 I mean, from a sporting perspective, this is like a once in a lifetime opportunity for many of the players in the team. Like, I would understand why they want to compete in the World Cup. And by the way, just for showing up and qualifying for the tournament, the Iran Football Federation receives somewhere around $13 million US, which is no small thing for a country that, you know, is that, as you say, actively at war. There have been visa issues. We've seen a number of countries. I think the Democratic Republic of the Congo is one that also had some issues. Obviously FIFA has worked with the US government and has gotten assurances that ultimately the people that need to be here for the World Cup will be allowed in. But
26:32 Speaker 01 As we all know, government red tape is, you know, a reality of the world. And I think the World Cup competitors are experiencing that. One of the things that I think is interesting is that Iran chose to move their training camp from Tucson, which was where it was originally scheduled to be, to Mexico because they want to be spending as little time as possible in America. So they're going to be training in Mexico and flying in the day before the game to Los Angeles or Seattle where they're playing their group stage games and then going right back to Mexico. To your question about the reception, I'm actually very curious to see when Iran was drawn into the group that they were drawn into and their games were assigned where they were going to be playing a couple of games in Los Angeles.
27:17 Speaker 01 Obviously, there's a massive Iranian diaspora in Los Angeles. I think the expectation is that it's going to be a pretty cold reception for the Iranian national team. A lot of Iranian Americans who live here see the football team as a symbol of the regime, whether that's fair or not, and are looking forward to the opportunity to boo them.
27:41 Speaker 02 You mentioned previous World Cup hosts, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, Qatar, that all of them sort of they stake their national prestige and resources on this event. There's been a lot of discussion about this with Olympic hosting. Is World Cup hosting, like, is it worth it? Does that pay off?
28:03 Speaker 01 There are real bonuses for hosts who take an Olympics or a World Cup in terms of raising the public profile, the global profile of the country, whether it's tourism or just general awareness, travel opportunities, international diplomacy. Like, that's not something that America generally struggles with. I think that from a corporate standpoint, there's no question that, you know, companies like Budweiser, Nike, Visa, some of these companies that have been on board with US Soccer and FIFA, it's a huge opportunity monetarily, brand activation opportunity
28:45 Speaker 01 wise, corporate hospitality. For sure, it's on a different level here than elsewhere. But what I think is really interesting is that This tournament, unlike Qatar or Russia, or certainly Brazil and definitely South Africa, this tournament required almost no infrastructure change. All of these stadiums are NFL stadiums. They're all built to host these kinds of events. You know, the stadiums in Qatar, several of them were literally built and then torn down. One of them was literally made out of shipping containers that were then, I mean, I don't think it's happened yet, but the premise was it was going to be taken apart and then, you know, repurposed as shipping containers.
29:27 Speaker 01 They did a big story for the New York Times before the 2014 World Cup about literally, how do you build a stadium in the Amazon? There was a stadium that was being built in Manaus, which is sort of the capital of the Amazonian region, and hosted, I think, like five World Cup games. And they had to, on boats, you know, bring in rebar and concrete and build this 40,000-seat stadium. Once the World Cup was over, there is no professional team in the Amazon that would ever play a game that would draw 40,000 spectators. And so what happened to that stadium, I think it became a bus depot, and then at some point it became a prison, like a private prison. At
30:07 Speaker 01 least in America, we are not going to have any of those sort of massive expenditures that are unnecessary in real life. So no upside necessarily, the same as these other countries in terms of visibility and, you know, making your profile bigger, but also no downside in terms of like, man, we had to spend all this money on these things that have no use once the month-long tournament is over.
30:34 Speaker 02 For the reputation of the United States, I mean, it's a tricky time to be having people focus on us. You mentioned all the interview questions that might happen. Is that something that could, you know, looking back, like, oh, maybe that wasn't such a good idea to have hosted?
30:55 Speaker 01 I think that's definitely possible, Bob, but it's also one of those things that like sometimes fate decides. I mean, this World Cup was awarded in 2018. I was in, it was right before the Russia World Cup began, the vote happened. And at the time, I think the thinking was, well, geez, that's so far from now, you know, 10 years or eight years down the line, the country's going to be in a much better place than it might have been in 2018. This probably isn't what organizers imagined would be the global profile of America right in this moment in time. But also, how could you have possibly predicted, you know, where we would be right as this kickoff is about to happen? I mean, even
31:38 Speaker 01 six months ago, a year ago, would anybody have predicted we'd be in the middle of a war with Iran? Like, I'm not sure, you know, that's something that was on anybody's radar, you know, at that moment.
31:49 Speaker 02 Can you explain why you feel like the World Cup matters beyond the outcome of the game?
31:56 Speaker 01 To me, the World Cup is, in a lot of ways, the great equalizer among the massive disparity that exists in the way that people live day to day around the world. For a month, everybody wants the same thing. Everybody just wants a goal. Everybody wants a win. Everybody wants to dream another day of like, how far they could go. I mean, there are some countries competing where the living situations are horrific, you know? The most fans, you know, in Haiti are dealing with real life issues that far surpass anything that you or I are dealing with. But when Haiti plays, they just want the same thing that every other fan wants. And like, there's something simple about that that just really
32:41 Speaker 01 appeals to me, you know? Obviously, it doesn't paper over the real problems that exist in the world, but I like imagining a thing where for a couple of hours, or a couple of weeks, or a month, everybody just wants the same thing. I don't know, maybe that's overly simplistic or cheesy. I find some beauty in that, and I like the simplicity it offers.
33:04 Speaker 02 So do you have any tips for folks who are hoping to try to get tickets to the finals in New York?
33:12 Speaker 01 I mean, you know, sell your car? I don't know. I mean, I think getting in is going to be very difficult and it sounds like the cost even just to get to the game, you know, to take a train, you know, from the city out to the stadium is like $100 for a trip that usually costs like $12. So the price gouging has even hit, you know, mass transport. But the beauty, I think, of modern sports is that watching it on TV in HD with your friends and your family or in a bar like is a pretty great experience, too. If you've never watched a game, go to a sports bar, find a friend or, you know, a group of friends who are watching it. Like, I have a feeling your opinion of soccer will change.
33:53 Speaker 02 Sam, this was great. Thanks so much for doing it.
33:56 Speaker 01 Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
33:58 Speaker 02 Sam's feelings around the beauty of the World Cup resonates with me. It's an event that reminds us that no matter what team you root for, the colors you wear, the flag you wave, we are all people. There's something about sport that allows us to see that, even when so many other factors highlight our differences. Now, whether I'd sell my car to get a ticket to the final, I don't know about that, but I will be rooting for the tournament to be a unifying force. As for the on-the-field action, I am a sports fan, unlike Sam. So for my colleagues here on the show, go England, go Haiti, go Argentina, and of course, go Team USA. Quick reminder to join us Friday to hear from the U.S.
34:43 Speaker 02 Soccer Federation CEO. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.
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36:44 Speaker 04 There's going to be two types of companies. Those who are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't.
36:49 Speaker 05 How do we build a future that is human-centered?
36:54 Speaker 06 I'm Rana Elkhayubi, and on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future, and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find Pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.
37:24 Speaker 02 Rapid Response is a Wait What original. I'm Bob Safian, our executive producer is Eve Tro, our senior producer is Alex Morris, and our associate producer is Masha Makutonina. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli and Brian Pugh. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lita Malad. For more, visit rapidresponseshow.com.
38:00 Speaker 02 Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday, we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely, from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from the devil wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there.
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