Don't be boring: KCRW's Jennifer Ferro on building a brand people love

Jennifer Ferro is the former board chair of NPR and president of Southern California’s iconic public radio organization: KCRW. Ferro talks with host Jeff Berman about how nearly two decades as the founder’s deputy taught her to lead, why she thinks we deserve a better internet, and how the best defense of getting ignored is simple: Don’t be boring. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Jeff Berman?

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• 0:48Jeff Berman?

  The very best founders I know are brilliant at building systems. They connect teams, they remove bottlenecks, and they eliminate single points of failure. And yet, when it comes to their own wealth, most are running a disconnected stack. A tax accountant here and a state attorney there, a wealth manager who doesn't talk to either one of them. Creative Planning was built to fix exactly that. One integrated team of tax professionals, state planners, investment specialists, all coordinated by a dedicated wealth manager who sees your full financial picture and keeps every piece working together. Proactive tax efficiency, estate strategy, investments, all under one roof.

• 1:32Jeff Berman?

  Creative Planning, where wealth works together. Learn more at creativeplanning.com/mastersofscale.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  AI is full of possibilities. Enterprises run on realities. That's why Pega combines the world's most powerful AI with the governance, transparency, and control enterprises demand. So you can move faster, adapt faster, and scale AI with confidence. All the power of AI, none of the uncertainty. Learn more at Pega.com/AI.

• 2:06Speaker 02

  We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring.

• 2:14Speaker 02

  Yes, indeed, it's KCRW. There's like the broccoli and the chocolate cake. We try to lean to the chocolate cake.

• 2:20Jeff Berman?

  Well, and sometimes your broccoli, just with a really nice cheese on top or something like that, right?

• 2:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  The founder of KCRW, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her. It's a superpower in making decisions. We fought all the time. I realized later that was her love language. I would leave every day and go, oh, I'm going to get fired, you know?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Literally, every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs of the world. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something. We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better.

• 3:02Jeff Berman?

  Hey, folks, Jeff Berman here. Before we start the show, I'm thrilled to welcome my friend Jamie Batmer, Chief Investment Officer of Creative Planning, one of the sponsors of our show. Creative Planning is one of the country's largest independent wealth management firms, where a single team, advisors, tax specialists, estate planners, all work from one coordinated plan. Jamie, welcome to the show.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Hey, thank you so much for having me.

• 3:26Jeff Berman?

  Jamie, when you meet a new client, founder, a business owner, what does their advisor setup usually look like?

• 3:32Speaker 03

  Maybe a few investment people, right? They have it spread out with a few firms. Then they have a tax person they've been working with, or a tax team. And then an estate planning team they've been working with. And so what we've done is bring those all under one roof with the dedicated subject matter experts within each space.

• 3:51Jeff Berman?

  I have to imagine that there's also a set of hidden costs when you have advisors who don't really talk to each other. What do those costs look like that people may not even recognize?

• 4:03Speaker 03

  Well, it's just friction costs. You're not moving along as efficiently as you can be. If there's not clear communication between those entities, you're missing stuff. You're missing the closest thing to free money the markets will give you.

• 4:15Jeff Berman?

  Could I ask you to share a real world example of a client who came to you after fragmented advice and counsel led to a costly mistake?

• 4:24Speaker 03

  We had a family that was domiciled at one point in Delaware, right? Made total sense when it was set up over a decade ago. Now, with, as things have changed, they should be farther out west in Nevada. And for this particular entity, it was a nearly $70 million mistake. But that's the thing, is that the person that did this for them, they didn't make the wrong decision in real time. They took care of it, and then they left, right? The idea is constantly looking at it. That's where we can add value. This team is looking to analyze every element of their financial life and make an empirically optimized decision.

• 5:08Speaker 03

  And that gives people extraordinary peace of mind, that they know they're going to have individuals that focus on this stuff all day long and not focus on trying to sell people bad stocks.

• 5:18Jeff Berman?

  What is your mission? Why are you guys doing this work?

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Focusing on what we can control, looking at everything, doing it right, not having a conflict of interest, and helping people, helping entities, fulfill the dreams they want, give to their family, give to charities. I mean, that's the most fantastic reward you can have, and that's the why behind it.

• 5:40Jeff Berman?

  I deeply appreciate how mission driven you are in that. Thank you so much for being with us, Jamie. It's such a pleasure to talk with you. And now, on to the show.

• 5:55Jeff Berman?

  This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host, and I am so excited to be in Los Angeles today with my new friend, Jennifer Farrow. Jennifer, I'm thrilled for you to be with us as you've been leading KCRW, a legendary public media institution through unprecedented, complex times with grace and grit and heart. And we have so much to discuss. Welcome to Masters of Scale.

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Thank you, I'm so happy to be here.

• 6:21Jeff Berman?

  How did you start your career coming out of college?

• 6:24Speaker 02

  Well, I think career is a really big word for what it was. I needed a job, so I worked for a criminal defense attorney during the kind of war on drugs and worked as a legal secretary and a paralegal.

• 6:36Jeff Berman?

  What was it like being a paralegal back in the early 90s in that war on drugs era?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  I mean, it was a very, you know, big education on the way the world really works, especially for people who don't have money and who were doing what they felt they needed to do to survive and how they were just swept up in a lot of, a lot of politics.

• 6:59Jeff Berman?

  As you know, as our regular listeners know, I started my career as a public defender. And one of the most valuable lessons for me from my five years doing that work is how to fight when you are radically under-resourced. You're going up against one of the most powerful forces in the world, and you are so radically under-resourced that you just have to be scrappy. It's almost the best possible training for startup life.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  That's true, that's true. And also, you have to get over the fact that things aren't fair. Which I think is really important. Like, when you're raised a certain way, you look at the world a certain way, you're just like, but wait, that's not fair.

• 7:35Jeff Berman?

  So how did you make the jump from a paralegal to a local criminal defense lawyer to KCRW? It's not the obvious step.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would listen to KCRW. I loved KCRW. I was like, wow, this is where smart people hang out. And I wanted to be where smart people were. And so I started volunteering at KCRW. And KCRW, at that time, they're a very robust volunteer program. So a lot of things, a lot of jobs were done by volunteers, really devoted people. And then just being around people who are so welcoming and kind and really committed to just good things. And I was like, this is where I want to be. I just quit and I started volunteering full time at KCRW. And I was like, something will happen.

• 8:16Jeff Berman?

  How did you transition from being a volunteer at KCRW to actually being on staff there?

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Okay, well, another kind of ridiculous story, but I, so part of my, you know, doing odd jobs to make rent, I got hired by the general manager and the founder of KCRW to transcribe this radio show.

• 8:36Jeff Berman?

  And for our younger audience, there was no granola back then. We're not dealing with AI being able to transcribe in real time. Literally, you are doing the transcription.

• 8:44Speaker 02

  Yes, it was manual. But I had used my credit card and bought a laptop on Cash Advance. This was when Apple laptops, the first Apple laptop. And so when I went into Ruth Seymour's office, the founder, and I shared her, this report I did, and she saw my laptop and she's like, what is that? And I'm like, oh, this is a laptop. She was so impressed with it. So anyway, we talked, I left her office, and her assistant walked in and sat down and said, I'm moving to the Peace Corps. I'm going to Cameroon, and I'm quitting. And so she said, oh, my God, I need an assistant. Go get that girl with the laptop. So she sent someone to run down after me. And she offered me a job right on the spot to be her assistant.

• 9:26Jeff Berman?

  And what'd you say?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Well, at first I said, I don't want to be an assistant. I don't want to be a secretary. I went to college. But then I thought, who am I kidding? I have no other prospects and I love this place. So I took the job.

• 9:38Jeff Berman?

  How long were you Ruth's assistant?

• 9:41Speaker 02

  Just two years, because I'd had that same thing where I said to her, look, I didn't go to college to be an assistant. I have to go start a career, so I'm going to leave. And then she said, well, what if you stayed here? What would you do? And I said, oh, you need a number two, because people were really afraid of her. I was not. So people would come and talk to me, and I would kind of, you know. Whisper to her, figure her out. And she's like, okay, yeah, you can do that.

• 10:06Jeff Berman?

  That's a new job in the legacy organization. How did it work?

• 10:10Speaker 02

  I mean, what ended up, I mean, all credit to her, um, R I P. But she not only built this really unusual entity, KCRW, but she also was so, um, welcoming to me. So we fought all the time. That was kind of, I realized later that was her love language. I would leave every day and go, oh, I'm going to get fired, you know? And then, but she liked that because people were, she liked people to tell the truth to her. But she's so smart, big personality, people would cower from her. But I was too young to understand that I should be doing that to keep my job. So she would just keep me in on every decision. She would sit me in her office and tell me these stories. And sometimes I'd say like, this is my job is listening to her tell these tales.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  However, what I realize now is, you know, I may not have had that, you know, that phrase, like you don't have a seat at the table, but you're in the room. I was in the room for everything and I under, I started to learn how she made decisions and why. It was invaluable.

• 11:07Jeff Berman?

  How long did you do that?

• 11:08Speaker 02

  I think 16 years.

• 11:10Jeff Berman?

  That's a long time.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:13Jeff Berman?

  You strike me as someone who doesn't lack for ambition in a good way. I don't say that critically at all. Why was it comfortable doing that job for 16 years?

• 11:23Speaker 02

  It's such a unique space. It is the largest door opener to culture in Los Angeles. Music, food, politics, policy, anything. If you're interested in anything, um, KCRW is a door opener for you to learn more about it. And so I'm addicted to that. I'm a really curious person. I love to learn things myself personally. And I also, it was a place where I could have a big effect. You know, I felt like I was able to make things happen. I think KCRW is just so singular.

• 12:00Jeff Berman?

  How big is KCRW now? How many employees do you have?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  We have about 140.

• 12:04Jeff Berman?

  What makes KCRW different from other public radio stations? Because you're right. I mean, whether it's, it's going back to Jonathan Gold, the iconic, um, Los Angeles food critic, uh, or it's left, right and center. I mean, KCRW, um, has made such a mark, not just in LA, but nationally with, with the programs that it has, um, created and produced and distributed.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  You know, I think it just comes from this notion that, um, we don't put ourselves in any kind of box. We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring. And I think it's like a mindset, you know? I think when a lot of public radio shifted, and I think I'm glad they did, and I'm really supportive of it. But there's this real big focus on journalism with a capital J and being the local news source and kind of replacing the newspaper in a lot of towns, which again, absolutely valuable and critical. But I think what happened in that transition is we forget about all the other parts of the newspaper that people used to read. And some of them were playing games or reading comics so they could laugh or finding out where movies or which movies to see and where to eat and things like that.

• 13:10Speaker 02

  That's the part that KCRW really embraces because we know that people want that. And so there's like the broccoli and the, and the chocolate cake. We are like, we try to lean to the chocolate cake.

• 13:21Jeff Berman?

  Well, and sometimes your broccoli, just with a really nice cheese on top or something like that, right?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly.

• 13:26Jeff Berman?

  So much of this is touch and taste. What has made KCRW so, so good at being successful over and over and over again, particularly across categories, which, you know, is extremely rare for a media organization to do.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  The thing that Ruth Seymour taught me was, um, you know, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her, which is a very, it's like a superpower. It's also not so great sometimes, but it's a superpower in making decisions. And when it comes to, you know, talent and work product or artistic expression, it can be really hard to tell someone, this isn't meeting the mark, you know? But I think, um, having that feeling and that, that culture of knowing like, this is important and you have to make hard decisions sometimes. And you have to move on from things that didn't work out and try new things. So I think, you know, it's that, it's that kind of dedication to being really honest.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Like, you know, we can all tell ourselves that like, well, the show's interesting because it's about the environment or whatever, um, but it's really kind of a bore. It's really, it's powerful to be able to say, this is boring.

• 14:36Jeff Berman?

  Yeah, yeah. When you started at KCRW, radio was radio. As the medium of radio has evolved to be radio plus podcasting plus video plus lord knows what else. How have you adapted and how has KCRW adapted to, to meet the changing moment?

• 14:52Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, that's a big one. I mean, it's probably our biggest challenge ever. And so I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about federal funding and stuff like that, that being a challenge. But I think the biggest challenge is this audience shift. And so like you said, when radio was radio, there was a finite number of, you know, stations and possibilities. And if you wanted to consume media, you had two choices, like five television stations and, you know, in LA, maybe 80 radio stations. And then, you know, when you're in the car, that was your only media that, that was live and, and available to you and easy to use. And so now it's like, it's really about changing from the focus being on making the media to really building the community.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  And I think for us, because we, we are, um, supported by members. So we do care about who's, who's in our audience. We want people who will actually love us enough to support us. That, um, the focus now is really on, um, what is it that we're doing that can build a, a community that will stay together and care about you enough to support you? When there's so many choices.

• 16:00Jeff Berman?

  Okay. So let's go back. So 16 years as assistant GM to Ruth. What happens that you take the GM title?

• 16:09Speaker 02

  Well, Ruth Seymour retired. So that was the main thing. I had to apply and win the job. But she did something really powerful. She said, I am going to, I'm not going to sit on the board. I'm going to disappear because I want the next person to take over this, this place and have the same freedom that I had. That was what she gifted to me. So that was fantastic. I think a lot of times founders will stay on a board. She was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And she, she didn't call me. She just said, if you need me, call me, but I'm not going to call you. And it was a big, huge gift to me.

• 16:46Jeff Berman?

  What was the biggest thing that you changed from Ruth's era when you came into the leadership job?

• 16:50Speaker 02

  I was, I was going to say I was a lot nicer. Um, so that was.

• 16:54Jeff Berman?

  That may be the answer.

• 16:57Jeff Berman?

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• 17:46Jeff Berman?

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• 18:22Jeff Berman?

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• 19:05Jeff Berman?

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• 19:37Jeff Berman?

  We live in an era of unprecedented, at least because of the means by which it can be communicated, misinformation and disinformation. We're dealing with propaganda spreading at a rate that the world has never seen before. How do you think about KCRW's role in countering that?

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's really important. And I think that, you know, so we've talked before about like the change in audience behavior and the fact that people have many other choices. And radio is not a growth medium. It's a very valuable and powerful medium, but it's not where you're going to find or attract your new audience. But I think that's where KCRW's transition has been the most powerful, is really understanding ourselves as this community resource. And not just for LA, but for all of the country. But as a, you know, the, the brand of public radio is one that you know that these are, these are people committed to serving the community. That's it. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something.

• 20:36Speaker 02

  We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better. And in a world that we live in, where literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs of the world, it's powerful to have that and to know it exists. And I think that what we watch is like, you know, listening behavior changing or habits changing. So maybe people aren't with us every single day, but those who know of us know they can completely and implicitly trust us. Having those things in the world is, is more critical than ever right now. Because you just don't, where do you turn? You know, whatever channel that you are consuming media on, it can be manipulated or has been manipulated.

• 21:21Speaker 02

  Having, you know, public media in the, in the country is, is critical for that, is a, as a backstop to, as a place that you can turn to find out what's real.

• 21:31Jeff Berman?

  Yeah, and you've got this weird paradox where on the one hand, you're labeled by some parties as quote unquote, "state media." And on the other hand, you're dealing with a massive federal funding battle, which I have to imagine has impacted you to some extent. How do you deal with that tension?

• 21:46Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I think the great thing is that we were never state media. And I think when you look at the original Public Broadcasting Act that Johnson passed, this was for the good of the country. And, and the kind of the language that's in there is, is so powerful when you think about it in today's world that we're in, which is like to elevate voices that aren't heard to be this resource for the country. I have a colleague who's no longer in public media, but he used to say, "We need a public internet. There's public television, public radio, we need a public internet." And when he first said it, I was like, "What are you talking about? The internet is public, but it's not public, right? It's controlled and owned and manipulated by others."

• 22:28Speaker 02

  And I do think that we need these spaces like public parks and public libraries, where they are here for the good of the people. We still have that mentality 100% and we're probably more devoted to that than ever without federal funding. And what federal funding did was, you know, it was 5% of our budget. It was like 30% of a, a place like Marfa Public Radio in Marfa, Texas, which is a tiny community, but the radio signals cover 30,000 square miles. And they reach people with literally no media and no cell service. And so why not have something that actually serves everyone? It's incredible. And so, you know, we're more devoted, like I said, than ever.

• 23:08Speaker 02

  And frankly, there's something freeing about not having the federal funding because you don't have to be in that conversation anymore. You know, because the charges about public media being liberal, those, those are really old. And it was, you know, it used to be focused on Big Bird and then it got focused on NPR. But it really couldn't be more true. I mean, I think, you know, the notion of what liberal is, is ultimately being open and interested and curious about lots of different ideas. That is the, kind of the opposite of the word conservative. So I think that's where public media has always been.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  But when you think about the contributions that it's made to America and society, I mean, I was a kid who grew up on Sesame Street. I learned all kinds of things before I got to kindergarten. How amazing to take a media that could make a, you know, turn children into little monsters, but also can turn children into these completely educated, interested, you know, little beings. I mean, it's, it's powerful. So yeah, I think, I think the federal funding thing, it's a relief to be out of the political football and spending time on the Hill and talking to Republicans and saying, "You know that we represent your community and your voice gets on this channel and you're talking to your voters."

• 24:33Speaker 02

  And privately, they would say like, "Oh, I know, it's really important to me." But publicly, they toe this line that said we were biased and things like that.

• 24:41Jeff Berman?

  Yeah, I mean, this idea that concepts such as inclusivity and kindness and fairness are radical leftist ideas that are being promulgated by this, this dangerous entity of public media is sort of insane. It's, it is, these are neither liberal nor conservative concepts. These are deeply rooted concepts in, in, across our society. Jen, a few years ago, you took on an additional challenge of chairing the NPR Board of Directors. You, you seem like you have a pretty full plate. Why did you decide to do that?

• 25:12Speaker 02

  Well, I was on the board for a number of years. And, you know, when you criticize something, you should just run it and do it yourself. So, no, anyway, I, you know, it was an opportunity to, I think, build cohesion in our public radio system at a time when we were under huge challenges. And I, you know, it's funny, inside our system, we think we're really different. Of course, we're not, right? People think NPR, public radio, they're interchangeable terms, KCRW interchangeable. But yet individually, it can be like herding cats. I saw that what we were approaching was a big leadership change at NPR

• 25:55Speaker 02

  and increasing Republican attacks against our, our brand, our industry, everything. And so I was very interested in trying to build something that could lead, hopefully lead NPR and, and public radio to a better place.

• 26:11Jeff Berman?

  Jen, the, the federal funding cut is one thing. To your point, if it's 5% of your budget and you have a large base and you can probably find a way to make up for that, you know, with some pain, but not too much difficulty. If you are Marfa, Texas, and you cover 30,000 square miles and it's 30% of your budget, boy, that sounds like a much tougher putt. What has happened across the member station universe since the federal funding cut?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  I mean, what we're seeing happen, first of all, there was a big fundraising effort outside, kind of adjacent to our industry that ended up creating this bridge fund that allowed a lot of stations two years of runway. So that was really huge and a lot of big foundations nationally came in to support that. So we haven't seen the kind of market forces that we would have seen normally by the September of that one year where we lost the funding. But what we're starting to see is the large stations. So there's probably like 12 to 15 stations that have budgets that are larger than $15 million. There's a, there's a lot of very tiny stations. But the larger ones are looking at regional leadership,

• 27:18Speaker 02

  stepping into both work with all the other, say, stations in their state to figure out how could they provide either backend services or acquisitions or something like that, that allows us to have that same kind of public service coverage across the country, but takes away some of the expenses that maybe they don't have to spend. So we're starting to see that now. I don't know what that will look like. The thing that I think... It will happen soon is the notion that, you know, you can, you can work really hard to protect what you used to have. Or you can look at the other big forces that are happening around you and look to say, okay, how can we adapt to those?

• 27:59Jeff Berman?

  Jen, let's fast forward a couple of years. We've had a paradigm shift in federal government and Republicans and Democrats come together and say, you know what, this was a mistake. We really should be funding public media in the US much more robustly. Would you say yes?

• 28:15Speaker 02

  I mean, yes, I would, even though I have, you know, issues with it. But yeah, I think America deserves to have a source of information and a community resource that is funded, that is funded and supported for everyone. The amount of money that public radio and public television got from the federal government was like budget dust. It was insignificant. And, and I think, you know, as a matter of principle, just like we have public libraries and public parks, we should have a public media, a source that you know is not manipulated by AI, is not controlled by some oligarch. Yeah, we deserve that. So I'm adamant and like, yes, let's do it as much as it was a pain in the butt. I don't think we should give up on that. And I think one thing that's really interesting is when that rescission effort happened.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  So remember, this was, you know, this, this rescission effort for USAID and public radio happened at the same time. And it was supposed to be the canary in the coal mine and the beginning of many, many rescissions to come. We have not seen any yet. But what was interesting was public television, public radio lobbied so hard with all of our representatives, which include many Republicans. We were almost going to defeat that in the House. That was going to be defeated in the House, but four Democrats did not show up to vote. And when Republicans saw that they weren't going to pass it, they switched sides. It was unprecedented in this environment right now because so many Republicans understood their constituents and they know, people are like, I want my kids to see Big Bird.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  You know, I want my kids to, I want myself, I want to learn things about the world and I want to hear the voices of my community. So I think there's, there's an opportunity to make something really powerful with the spirit. Do I think it's going to happen? I do not. I mean, Roe versus Wade, you know, that has been, how long has that been overturned? And that hasn't come back, even though a majority of the country actually supports that.

• 30:08Jeff Berman?

  Yeah, significant majority, super majority of the country.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. So it's like, I don't, I don't think that Congress can actually do anything like this.

• 30:15Jeff Berman?

  Not yet.

• 30:15Speaker 02

  Not yet, not yet. But I'll try, I'm going to keep trying, go down the hill.

• 30:18Jeff Berman?

  Keep hope alive.

• 30:19Speaker 02

  Keep doing it.

• 30:20Jeff Berman?

  Jen, I have a 16 year old who is extremely online and thank goodness, he is quite media literate because he'll assert something and I'll ask him his source and he now knows that TikTok is not a source. The account on TikTok might be, if it's KCRW on TikTok, that's, that's one thing. But we live in this world where the, you know, now trillion dollar companies that control these algorithms are incentivized to drive engagement and engagement happens more when we are outraged and we are inflamed and cortisol is spiking.

• 30:57Jeff Berman?

  And yet fact-based media, a lot of the places where this should be redundant, but objective truth lives, and I do believe that's such a thing, is harder to engage people that way. So when you talk about, for example, public internet or new paradigms, again, we're sort of giving you a magic wand and huge power. What would you design so that we as Americans are engaging more with fact-based media and less with the outrage machine?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  I mean, first of all, I think that fact-based media needs to spend a lot of money on marketing.

• 31:38Jeff Berman?

  Call it something other than fact-based media. Maybe we'll start there.

• 31:41Speaker 02

  That does not sound good. It doesn't sound like chocolate cake in any way. And I think that, you know, again, on, on the side that we can control, I think that we have to make a product that's just as interesting and exciting. But on, on the other side, I think there is, I do believe that the, the companies and the organizations that control these pipelines, that they can manipulate in positive or negative ways, owe it to the society to create a space that is free from that. If they are going to own the pipes and they're going to hold on to those, that ownership,

• 32:21Speaker 02

  then there does need to be a space that we can have for people that is designed not to harm. I think the whole thing should be like that, but that's out the window. It doesn't necessarily generate the same amount of revenue. And then I think that there's, you know, I don't know what it would look like, but this notion of a public pipeline, a public internet is a really, you know, interesting concept. And again, I, you know, it's hard to get people to move off platforms, et cetera. But I, I think just having that shows that you care about the, the people that you lead, you know? And I do think it's interesting watching media change.

• 33:03Speaker 02

  Like you, you have, like, on the radio side, we're controlled by the FCC. It is an agency of the government and it has rules and standards and we can violate them and lose our privilege. I don't see that anywhere in today's modern pipelines. And I, you know, I, I don't think it's been for the good, you know? I think we can all point to something that shows, wow, no one's minding this store. You know, we're just okay with letting children see these things or letting people, in a sense, get poisoned by some stuff. I mean, there's lots of great things. I, I love looking at squirrel houses on Instagram. I'm so down for that. But, you know, there's also a lot of really negative stuff.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  And, and I think once a society throws their children to the wolves, it's like, is this really, is this really where we want to be? And I, I think a government's role is to, is to protect.

• 33:59Jeff Berman?

  Yeah. I mean, it's, it's complicated in so many ways, right? But when you and I were growing up, we had three or potentially four television networks. And you had the nightly news and in our house, we had NBC and Tom Brokaw on when I was much younger, it was Walter Cronkite and CBS. And you got what felt like the news. This was what mattered in the world. And the reality is, it is what a bunch of men who look a lot like me decided was relevant to the world and was presented through their lens. And so part of the promise of the internet and of this massive fragmentation of media is this diversity of viewpoints and, you know, news and information, opinions that

• 34:43Jeff Berman?

  never would have made its way onto Tom Brokaw's broadcast, making it to your device. The downside is everything else that we're dealing with, which is pretty extreme. And so what I hear you sort of advocating for is almost a third way, which is sure, let a thousand flowers bloom, let 100 million flowers bloom, and let's also have a corridor where there is a more trusted set of data coming to and maybe more modulated, if not moderated, set of data coming through. Is that, is that how you would say it?

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, definitely. And I also think that, um, you know, there's, there's a lot of things in the world that have public parts and then private parts. There's bookstores and there's libraries, you know, and both coexist really nicely and people make decisions based on what they need. I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't want to be a big advocate of government regulation necessarily, but I do feel that our society is better when we have spaces that are designed just to make people's lives better. That's it. And if that means, you know, healthcare for some, if it means preschool for others

• 35:56Speaker 02

  or opportunities for, for free education, those are, those are good things for society in general. And that's what I, I would love to have. And then in order to scale that, I think, you know, the people who are making that, the media that's on those platforms has to make it good. And I think just because it's public doesn't mean it needs to be boring.

• 36:15Jeff Berman?

  Well, that sounds like a perfect place to wrap. Thank you for being a master of scale.

• 36:18Speaker 02

  Absolutely. This is so fun.

• 36:21Jeff Berman?

  Thanks again to Jennifer Farrow for joining us. The way she leads KCRW offers so many valuable lessons for any of us who want to scale the reach of facts in an increasingly algorithmically controlled misinformation and disinformation-driven world. Let's not compromise our integrity, but also let's not be boring. Jennifer Farrow is definitely not boring and she is most certainly high integrity. I so appreciate the work that she's doing in the world and I so appreciate you being here as part of our community. I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening.

• 36:57Jeff Berman?

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• 37:36Speaker 04

  Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

• 37:40Speaker 05

  There's going to be two types of companies. Those are great at AI and those that went out of business because they weren't.

• 37:45Speaker 06

  How do we build a future that is human-centered?

• 37:50Speaker 07

  I'm Rana Elkhauyubi. And on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future and we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find Pioneers of AI wherever you tune in.

• 38:19Speaker 08

  Hey listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show because every Friday we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely, from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from the devil wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find, just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there.

• 38:57Jeff Berman?

  Masters of Scale is a Wait What original. Our executive producer is Eve Trow. Senior supervising producer is Tricia Bobita. Associate producer is Masha Makatenina. Video editor is MG Frederick. Senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by the audio boys themselves, Aaron Bestinelli and Brian Pugh, with original music by the remarkable Ryan Holiday. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel.