At the Money: Investing for Creative Types

Artists need budgets, songwriters need to save for retirement and anyone who is right-brained needs to understand money too. Financial security enables creative risk. AJ Ayers is co-founder of BKFi and author of the book, "Creative Money: New Financial Rules for Artists, Innovators, and Misfits" See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:45Barry Ritholtz?

  Are you a creative person who struggles with their finances? Artists need budgets, songwriters need to save for retirement, and anyone who is a creative, right-brained person needs to understand money also. And financial security enables creative risk. That's a quote from our guest, A J Ayers. She's co-founders of Brooklyn Phi, a financial advisory firm. Her new book, Creative Money: New Financial Rules for Artists, Innovators, and Misfits, was just published in November 2026. So I want to talk a little bit about the advice you give to creative types, but I

• 2:29Barry Ritholtz?

  have to start with talking about your career. You went from editing books about music to helping people manage their money. What did working with artists teach you about wealth that Wall Street kind of misses?

• 2:45Speaker 04

  What I learned from being in book publishing and working with musicians was that communication matters. And I think that's where Wall Street and other financial advisors, where I saw a gap in the markets, that there are young people who are making serious money, whether it's, you know, from a record deal or a book advance or what have you, and they want financial advice, they need tax advice, and they're not ready for portfolio returns, they need a financial plan. And so that was the gap I saw. And when I looked around at my own life as a right-brained creative who never did well, you know, in trig, I never took trig, I thought, hey, this financial advice thing is actually not that complicated. I think I could do this, too.

• 3:28Barry Ritholtz?

  Yeah, I took math. I went all the way and I've never used trig since high school. So you're not missing anything. So traditional, conventional financial advice kind of gets things wrong for the right-brained people. What do you think the standard playbook misses for someone who earns money through royalties or commissions or advances or one-time windfalls, and the rest of the time they're just gigging for pocket change?

• 3:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, the traditional financial advice misses this fact that income is irregular for a lot of people. And it's, I write in the book, it's not just the hipsters and the hippies anymore. You know, it's consultants, it's a lot of people in many industries, not just specifically creative ones that I call out, that have this irregular income. And you have to be much more disciplined about savings. You have to think more about money than, you don't have the luxury of a paycheck showing up every two weeks, so you have to take it more seriously. And unfortunately, these artists and creatives often don't. And often they just hide from it completely, which sets them even further behind when they have more, frankly, opportunities to become financially independent to get ahead.

• 4:42Barry Ritholtz?

  So you're advising these people how to build a predictable financial life around an unpredictable income. What replaces the typical monthly household budget when there isn't a regular paycheck?

• 4:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, and the answer to that is financial planning, is tricking yourself into thinking that you have a salary. So in the book, I kind of lay out, hey, there's different stages of a business. And you always have to treat your income as if, you know, you're running a business. And I think people rely too much on others to dole out income in regular intervals. So I say, set up your own checking account, pay yourself every two weeks, figure out what makes sense to you, and make sure you're saving first before you're spending money. Because I think there's this, especially when money doesn't show up regularly, it's, oh, my God, the money's finally here, I have to go do this, I want to go spend, I want

• 5:42Speaker 04

  to go buy something nice, I want to go buy a house, when in fact, you're actually getting your salary front-loaded for the next three years. So you have to be more strategic about how you dole it out to yourself.

• 5:53Barry Ritholtz?

  You very specifically advise people who get a big windfall like that when their income stream is irregular, hey, the first thing you have to do is pay Uncle Sam, you have to put money aside for taxes. Tell us about why that's such a challenge.

• 6:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, the first thing you should do when you get a windfall is spend 1% on something awesome.

• 6:12Barry Ritholtz?

  I love that. We're going to come back to that later. That's probably my favorite quote in the book.

• 6:17Speaker 04

  Yes, but I think it's either step three, I think it's step three where it's know what you're going to owe in tax. And it's, you know, people just skip this step. My whole tone in the book is, you're not a freak, you're not a weirdo if you never learned this stuff. The freaks and the weirdos are the people who grew up knowing about money, who know what tax brackets are and what have you. But taxes is where creative people get into trouble. That's where it's their first year, they get a big check, they don't think about taxes, and they spend it all, and they get a huge tax bill, and now all of a sudden they're in debt. And that's really scary. So in the book, I talk a lot about in the tax chapter about, just please have a bare minimum understanding of how taxes work. When in doubt, save 50% of every dollar you make.

• 7:01Speaker 04

  If that sounds crazy, do 30.

• 7:03Barry Ritholtz?

  So I love the expression freaks and weirdos. But I'm curious, does that whole mythology of the starving artist actually hurt them? How do you get someone who just isn't comfortable talking about money to discuss money in a way where they don't feel like they're compromising their artistic integrity?

• 7:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, the big secret is that every artist who is successful has a business manager. And the business manager, you know, not only basically gives them an allowance, but pays all their bills. So artists are often so shielded, and frankly, in my opinion, infantilized from actually confronting their finances, that, you know, they wake up and they're 40 years old and they've never written, they've never looked at their bank account because someone does it for them. So, you know, I kind of argue that, like, hey, I'm sorry, no one's going to do this for you. And the reason I wrote the book was, hey, wink, wink, I used to be you, you know, I used to be an artist, I used to do all these things, now I'm a financial advisor, isn't that insane? Like, isn't that an insane thing to do from being, you know, having a dream job in publishing

• 8:13Speaker 04

  to being a financial advisor? Maybe you'll trust me a little bit.

• 8:16Barry Ritholtz?

  So how should creative people price their work? When your product is your talent, how do you separate your own self of sense? It's almost embarrassing to ask for 200 number for some people.

• 8:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, this is the hardest question to answer, I think, in the book. And the way that I try to answer it is, You know, first of all, you might not make money from your art. And that is a really scary thing for people. And I sort of say, you know, think of your paycheck as your patron. You know, people think of like, oh, the Medici family in Renaissance Italy. It's like, well, I wish I could have a patron so I could just paint all day. It's like, well, maybe you have a well-paying job that gives you health insurance and you can paint all weekend. And maybe that's your passion and you're talented. But could that, could you selling those paintings for whatever price actually feed your family? Probably not.

• 9:13Speaker 04

  Pricing art is, is totally subjective, right? And, and the art market itself, whether it's music, or fine art, or photography, or what have you, it's what people are going to pay for it. And frankly, you know, bad art or commercial art is what sells. So it's, it's, it's a very difficult thing to equate your creative output with the price that you think you should be paid for it.

• 9:40Barry Ritholtz?

  Really interesting. So, so let's talk about when that artist, or writer, or musician lands a big paycheck, when it finally arrives. How do you divide that one-time check that shows up amongst current spending, future spending, long-term savings?

• 10:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, so I have a chapter in the book called "How to Spend a Windfall." The book is full of frameworks, right? It's, I can't sit down with you, I'm not your financial advisor, but let me give you enough frameworks that you can apply these to your life, whether it's a $2,000 tax refund or a $2 million record advance. So step one is do something awesome. Step two is, I think it's do nothing. It's, it's do nothing for a little while because let it sit. If it's a huge windfall, your life is going to change dramatically. Then it's pay tax. Then it's let's put some away before we buy houses, before we think about other creative projects. This is a mistake I see a lot of people make is like, oh, I made the windfall. Well, now I have to think about the next one.

• 10:46Speaker 04

  It's like, no, this might be it. We can't count on this happening every couple of years, so make sure that you're investing. Another chapter in the book I have is invest $10,000 as soon as humanly possible, because I find so many creative people are afraid of the stock market. They're afraid of Wall Street. They dislike capitalism and they don't understand that if you use capitalism a little bit to your own advantage, you can help more people, you can do more art. And that's kind of the, the point I'm trying to make.

• 11:18Barry Ritholtz?

  So when can someone afford to quit that day job? The one that actually is acting as the patron subsidizing their arts? What sort of financial conditions need to be in place before they can turn that creative pursuit into a full-time career?

• 11:35Speaker 04

  Yeah. Every person has a different tolerance for risk. To me, at a minimum, it's, it's a year of savings to live your life. A year of expenses, so you give yourself some time to experiment. For most people, that's probably more like three or five years to get it off the ground. Is that realistic? No. That's such a difficult question to answer because we all did it, right? You and I both did it, Barry. You know, you leave steady jobs to go start businesses because you feel like it's the right time. You and I went into financial advisory, which is probably, you know, has a higher success rate than, you know, creating musical albums. But it is kind of the same concept. It's like you, you, when you feel it's right, you give yourself runway and you take the leap.

• 12:18Barry Ritholtz?

  So when I did that, I didn't have family money behind me, but I had a spouse who was a tenured teacher with a good paycheck and healthcare. So I felt like I could be very risk embracing. But it raises a really interesting question. If you come from money, if you have family cash back there, how does that affect the economics of a creative career? And what sort of advice would you give to an artist who does have that financial safety net?

• 12:50Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, use it. The, the only reason not to use it is your own personal shame. You know, if you're, I'm serious, like if your parents worked really hard and, you know, chances are they love you and they want you to do what makes you happy. So if you are in a position where you can't make a living from selling your portraits, but you have family money to pay your rent to live in New York City, you know, embrace it. And, you know, don't hide it, be, be open about it. It, it may impact the way communities embrace you for, for being a rich kid. But I, I, I really think that the barrier to using that money is your own personal shame.

• 13:28Barry Ritholtz?

  Interesting. So, so let's talk about someone who's had a successful creative career, but they want to think about at least retiring from the working side, but they don't want to stop creating. What sort of advice do you give to a person like that?

• 13:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, what, what a great position to be in, right? To, to have saved, to have had a meaningful working life and to have lots of life left to live to pursue your passions. I think, you know, that's kind of the great dream of retirement here in America is, oh, now I have time to go do these things that I've always loved. With my clients, and I hope the people that end up reading my book, I like to bring that timeline forward into our 30s and 40s as opposed to waiting to the traditional, you know, 60s or 70s. So if you have that big windfall, maybe your company goes public in your 30s, now you get to decide, oh, maybe I can start that business. Maybe I can, you know, open that diner that I've always wanted to do.

• 14:29Barry Ritholtz?

  So last question, what sort of moves would you recommend to a talented creative person who's avoided dealing with their finances for years and they don't come from family money? What are the big moves they should make right now to start getting some financial progress underway?

• 14:46Speaker 04

  The big moves are actually quite little. And, and my acronym for that is ABS, always be saving. And I hear from people, I can't save at all, you know, I don't make any money. Like, could you save a dollar a week? Could you set up that habit when times are lean? So you are always saving. You are always saving money either into a savings account or even into directly into the stock market so that when times do change, when your income does increase or you get a windfall, you can ratchet up that savings. But to turn off that, to, to never have that habit that you're actually saving is how people end up, you know, completely divorced from ever finding financial success.

• 15:26Barry Ritholtz?

  So to wrap up, if you're a creative person who's been struggling with your finances, there are a number of things you can do to get started. Additionally, you might want to look at the book Creative Money, which has the new financial rules for artists, innovators, and misfits. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You've been listening to Bloomberg's At the Money.