Balancing $5.7T in Active and Passive Management with Lori Heinel

Barry sits down with Lori Heinel, Executive Vice President, Global Chief Investment Officer at State Street Investment Management. Lori discusses her unlikely journey from majoring in religious studies at Princeton to working in finance and investing. They also discuss her role as CIO at State Street and how she balances active and passive management views. They also discuss the case for private markets' involvements in 401(k)s. They also discuss how Lori is seeing AI affect her business managing trillions of dollars worth of assets, and her involvement with the "Fearless Girl" statue campaign. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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  This week on the podcast, another banger. Lori Heinel is Executive Vice President and Global Chief Investment Officer at State Street Investment Management. She oversees $5.7 trillion in assets, and that's as of the end of 2025. It's obviously a market that has appreciated since then. She oversees index funds, ETFs, active strategies, alternatives, multi-asset solutions, and really drives an incredible organization. I thought this conversation was fascinating, and I think you will also.

• 2:29Speaker 04

  With no further ado, my interview with State Street's Lori Heinel. Lori Heinel, welcome to Bloomberg.

• 2:46Speaker 05

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:47Speaker 04

  So let's start out with your, your early career and your academic background. You studied religion at Princeton before getting your MBA at Carnegie Mellon. What was the career plan with Religious Studies?

• 3:01Speaker 05

  Well, that's a long story, but I'll try to keep it short. Bottom line is, I went to Princeton because I wanted to get more of a liberal arts education. And what I realized pretty quickly is it didn't really matter what I majored in. I could major in economics, I could major in history, and I happened to take a Religious Studies course, which I just absolutely adored. And from a personal standpoint, I had a number of people in my family who were incredibly staunch practicing Catholics or other kinds of Christian religions. And they would do things that, to me, were quite odd at times. And so I thought, from a personal perspective, it would be an interesting way to get more insight into what was going on with some of these family members.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  So short answer is that I decided to pursue that as a, as a academic undertaking, and then I got to a place where I needed to think about a career. And my first thought was, well, jeez, maybe I'll go to law school. Well, then I realized I needed to make some money. So my second thought was, well, jeez, you know, there's this analyst program thing that they have on Wall Street. Surely, you know, they recruit at fine institutions like Princeton. And low and behold, that catapulted me into what became a really long career in finance by just moving from an institution like Princeton into an analyst program.

• 4:20Speaker 04

  So, so let's move forward. You started Credit Suisse First Boston, where you ran equity and fixed income sales. Then you ended up working on, with trading at Parker Hunter in Pittsburgh. Am I, am I getting the?

• 4:33Speaker 05

  Well, I didn't start by running anything. So I started out as a two-year grunt, right? I think most of your listeners know what these analyst programs look like. I was effectively in investment banking for public finance. So we worked with hospitals, airports, municipal authorities, but I did all the kind of grunt work, if you will, all the numbers crunching behind the scenes and helping to run the deal models and things of that nature. And I just found that fascinating. I thought it was really amazing to connect both, you know, what's going on in the world with, you know, how finance supports that. And so I did that for a couple of years, and then at the end of the two-year program, you're typically expected to go back to business school. Well, I still needed to make money because I had student loans to pay off, so I decided I wanted to stay.

• 5:16Speaker 05

  And that led me, led me to an opportunity on the trading desk at First Boston, which really was an incredible opportunity because that was my first real introduction to markets.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  So what did working on the trading floor teach you about markets?

• 5:31Speaker 05

  So many things. I think the first and most important thing is I was there during the 87 Black Monday crash, and I happened to be working in fixed income. So it was a really interesting day because, of course, at that time, the First Boston trading floor was on two different levels. So you had all the fixed income was on one level, all the equities was on a different level. And we went dead silent in the first part of the day. And suddenly, people were starting to realize what was happening, the market crashing, you know, 20-plus percent.

• 6:02Speaker 04

  22%.

• 6:03Speaker 05

  Over the course of, you know, a day, which, of course, today, we've got calibrators that don't let that happen anymore. But then, all of a sudden, towards the end of the day, things on the fixed income market started going crazy because now you had the Fed coming out, Alan Greenspan, saying, you know, we're going to go ahead and provide liquidity, we're going to make sure that there's, you know, active engagement to forestall any further, you know, recessions or other things that might be caused by this kind of major crash. So I guess the first lesson I learned was that there are winners and there are losers in every market event, and it's better to be on the winning side. So I happened to be, at that time, on the bond side, which was the big winner that day. But then I think the other thing that I learned was that you have to be really careful about

• 6:47Speaker 05

  things like moral hazard, because we became accustomed in that moment to this idea of the Fed put. And I think many years later, we are still wondering about, you know, what that really does mean in terms of the reaction function.

• 7:02Speaker 04

  So take me back to 1987 for a second. I was in grad school at the time, but I can only imagine the fixed income trading floor. Were people sitting around, their feet on their desk, sipping lattes, like, or did anyone say, let's go down to the equity floor and look at the chaos and carnage?

• 7:23Speaker 05

  Well, the first thing we were doing, we were sitting there doing the crossword puzzles. There were lots of days, and I was in muni bond trading, so it was a little bit of trade by appointment.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  Very sleepy.

• 7:32Speaker 05

  Very sleepy at times. Obviously, fixed income markets got a lot more interesting throughout my career, but at that time, it was not uncommon. In the early morning, we'd do a few trades, and then we'd have a little break. We'd go get some lunch, we'd do a little crossword puzzle. So that day was different, right? So we had our normal morning, and but by the time you got to the early afternoon, it's like, wow, something's really happening here. And you started to see major moves in bond markets, including in the muni market. And so suddenly, it was a very different, more chaotic, even on our floor.

• 8:04Speaker 04

  So money was flying out of equities. Did it roll right into just safe harbor in bonds?

• 8:10Speaker 05

  Well, cash was the big place, right? So we had these variable, variable rate demand notes offerings, which were seven-day resets. And so they acted like a form of cash. So we saw massive demand almost immediately in that particular market because it was a cash substitute, but with the tax advantages.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  What was the yield back in 87, like 7, 8, 9%?

• 8:31Speaker 05

  Well, in those, it would have been in the sevens, probably, because you look at the spread.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Seven tax-free.

• 8:36Speaker 05

  On a tax-free.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  Oh, man, that's 10, 11, 12%.

• 8:39Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 8:40Speaker 04

  Wow, amazing.

• 8:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:42Speaker 04

  So, so before, after Credit Suisse, but before State Street, you had a couple of really interesting positions. You were Head of Investments at Citi Private Bank, you ran global investment products for SEI, you led new business development at Mellon Financial, and you were Chief Investment Strategist at Oppenheimer Funds. What's the throughput? What's the common thread in all of those?

• 9:06Speaker 05

  Well, some of those were personal. So at the time that I was in New York, I met my then-to-become husband, we're since divorced, but at the time, we were engaged, and we ended up moving to Pittsburgh. He got a job there, and so I followed him there. So the Parker Hunter was really, you know, personal reasons, needed to find something to do, totally different city. I had grown up in Pittsburgh, so in some ways, it was a real blessing because that's where we ended up having our two children. And so it was great to have that support network at a time where I wanted to continue to work through my early child, childbearing years, if you will. And then I think after that, we consolidated on the East Coast because we really, we both realized, and he was in finance as well, he stayed in investment banking, that we

• 9:51Speaker 05

  wanted to have more opportunities. And Pittsburgh's a great city for many, many reasons, but it's not a place where you have a lot of opportunities in finance. So we ended up settling then in Philadelphia. So once again, I was on the prowl for a role, and that led me to First Mellon Financial, where I did business development and started from scratch, built a book over a couple of years, and then got very fortunate, recruited by a headhunter to go to SEI Investments. And I would say that that was where I really got the bug in asset management. So SEI has two primary business lines, or at least at the time, they were a back-office outsourcing firm, and then they also had a pretty meaningful investment management arm, which was an outgrowth of their early consulting days.

• 10:36Speaker 05

  And so I was hired to basically build the asset management franchise for their community and regional banking division. And so I would travel around the country, you know, meeting with trust officers and financial advisors and other kinds of practitioners at these small regional and community banks, and encouraging them to transition their business from, you know, do it themselves, buying individual stocks and bonds into a platform like SEI. So for me, that was a really eye-opening experience, one, it just really opened up my eyes to all of America. I traveled literally around, around the country, but also just looking at the different needs that these types of clients had and how we could serve them.

• 11:17Speaker 04

  So you're starting with the client's objectives and perhaps their future liabilities. You have to determine what's the most efficient combination of vehicles, risk, exposure. What's that process like? And is that sort of the through line of all these different positions?

• 11:35Speaker 05

  So the major through line of all the positions is that focusing on the client first. So maybe if I can regress just a half a beat, one of my most formative experiences was when I was an investment banker at First Boston. We were working on a deal for the Arlington Airport Authority. And at the time, they were doing what was called a pre-refunding, where they were basically, issuing new debt to pay for old debt and tried to reduce their debt servicing costs over time. So pretty common activity. And at the time, we kept running all these numbers and we kept showing the director these amazing discounted net present value savings that she was getting from the deal.

• 12:16Speaker 05

  And every time, she would leave the room and say, this is not what I expected. This is not what I wanted. This is not the deal that I need to have happen. And I'm the most junior person running the numbers. We've got the VPs, the MDs, everybody else around the room. And they're all men, turns out. And they're like, she's crazy. What's wrong with this woman? We're delivering amazing net present value savings. So I happened to run into her in the ladies' room and said, you know, it'd really help me if I understood better why this isn't working for you. And it turned out that statutorially, that they could only keep the savings in the first year for the authority.

• 12:57Speaker 05

  And then every subsequent years of savings would basically reduce the tax liens against all the, or the fees that they were collecting at the airport. So they didn't actually get savings from anything after the first year. I was like, okay, got that.

• 13:11Speaker 04

  Front-loaded.

• 13:12Speaker 05

  We're going to front-load it and off we go, right? So that taught me a lot of lessons around, one, listen to the client. Don't just think because you're the expert, you know all the answers. They might need something different that you haven't thought of. And it also taught me that it doesn't have to be the most experienced person in the room that's going to have that insight, because it took me five minutes to figure out what we'd spent meeting after meeting trying to gel through.

• 13:34Speaker 04

  Nobody asked that question.

• 13:35Speaker 05

  And nobody asked that question, right? Because they just thought they knew better, because every other client wanted max net present value savings, period, full stop. So that's one of the, I think, the big threads that went throughout my entire career, that sort of, you've got to really listen. Sometimes the problem is not what you thought the problem was. And sometimes the answer, even though it's not optimal, it's the best answer.

• 13:57Speaker 04

  So how did you find your way to Global CIO at State Street?

• 14:01Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, the good news is I, once again, sort of another theme in my career, once I sort of got to more of a senior level, was I mostly got recruited, because I would have exposure and I'd get sort of known in the industry. And so I got a call out of the blue from a headhunter. And at the time, I was very happy. I was living in New York City. I was actually, had gotten divorced by that point in time, was living in Jersey City and working in Lower Manhattan. So I had a fabulous, you know, six-minute commute across the ferry, which I relished. But I felt like maybe I didn't have the next step available to me at Oppenheimer Funds, which of course is now part of Invesco.

• 14:43Speaker 05

  And so I got a call and they were looking for someone who would run their investment professionals, more from the sales and commercial side, the people that they called like portfolio strategists. So some people know these people as client portfolio managers. But they also wanted somebody who could be groomed for other opportunities within the investment organization. And, you know, one thing led to another. Did a little flyer to Boston, had a couple of conversations. And what I really liked about, you know, what State Street had to offer at that point in time was, it was a very broad platform. They covered all asset classes. State Street, as you know, had a prime position in ETFs and indexing, which, you know, this

• 15:27Speaker 05

  would have been, you know, 2014. And while certainly those instruments were very widely available and adopted by investors, nothing like the ramp up in terms of growth that we've seen over the last decade plus. And so what I saw was a place where I could have the ultimate toolkit, working with the ultimate global client base to solve problems for those clients using my expertise.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  And just as a point, State Street has the spiders, the SPY, which is the biggest institutional ETF for the S and P 500, and the Gold Spiders, GLD, which obviously gold is way off its highs, but that's another giant ETF. What is it like overseeing what really has become the standard bearers for both index funds and ETFs?

• 16:20Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, look, there's a lot of complexity, as you well know, to running ETFs. But one of the benefits is that it's one large pool of capital, so you can run it as a single proposition, if you will. You have one account. So there's definitely complexity there, but in some ways, that's more straightforward than the separate accounts book of business that we manage for institutional clients, where literally every S and P exposure, Russell exposure, Barr Ag exposure is going to be customized to that particular client. So what's really interesting about our platform is that we have both these, you know, large

• 17:00Speaker 05

  scale funds, if you will, ETFs, but we also have this massive separate account management business, which we can deliver to institutional clients at a very price competitive and very customized way.

• 17:14Speaker 04

  Really interesting. Coming up, we continue our conversation with Lori Hainall, Executive Vice President at State Street, discussing a day in the life of a Global CIO helping to oversee $5.7 trillion in client assets. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

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  I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guest today is Laurie Heinel. She is Executive Vice President and Global Chief Investment Officer at State Street, where she helps to oversee $5.7 trillion in assets. So, so let's talk a little bit about State Street. I recall way back when they launched SPY, I want to say that was

• 20:20Speaker 05

  Over 30 years ago.

• 20:21Speaker 04

  Something like that. The first U.S. ETF, and they've been a pioneer of indexing and ETFs, you know, ever since. How do you look at the role of indexing in portfolios? How has this changed, not only over your tenure at State Street, but over your entire career?

• 20:40Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, I think the first thing I would say is that, once upon a time, it wasn't really possible for people to get index replication, right? So that was the great innovation of something like SPY, where suddenly, every individual investor could buy one security and effectively get the market. And for much of my career, particularly in the early part of my career, it was all about beating the market. Let's get the best active managers who could beat that index. And what you find in, for decades now, is in, in many markets, especially large-cap U.S., it's really challenging to do that net of fees. And so, I've thought for many decades now, that this combination of index

• 21:22Speaker 05

  exposure, where it was really hard to find managers who could consistently outperform, coupled with maybe some satellite managers, or specialist managers, or managers in other parts of the market, think emerging markets, small-cap, adding your risk budget and your active management budget there, just made a lot of sense. So, when I think about portfolio construction, it really is, I want to accomplish some sort of outcome, some sort of risk-based outcome for that client, but I also want to do it in a way that covers fees, provides opportunities for alpha or outperformance, but does so in a kind of measured way.

• 21:58Speaker 04

  So, State Street saw record inflows in 2025 into, I think this is, the ETF and index business, $180 billion net inflows, management fees up 13% and in gross growth. Where do you see the growth coming from in the space? I keep hearing, indexing is over, ETFs have had their day, and yet, year after year, it seems to be the big winner.

• 22:24Speaker 05

  Well, I think there's still lots of room for indexing to run, because if you think about places like fixed income, we've only started to scratch the surface relative to what you see on the equity side of things. So, increasingly, or even seeing, quote-unquote, exotic fixed income, things like emerging debt, things like high yield, which we've had index products for quite a long time, become much more adopted by clients globally, because they see that as a great way to get access, again, to a market in a way that they can really understand the risk and manage it within the portfolio context. So I think there's still plenty of room for indexing to run. I think the other thing is, we've seen a major shift in terms of the client segmentation, if you will. So, once upon

• 23:07Speaker 05

  a time, the big investors were the large institutional investors, you know, the defined benefit plans, sovereign wealth funds. Those investors are still important, but increasingly, the net incremental dollar is coming from the retail client, whether it's through defined contribution, or rollovers, or, you know, other kinds of, you know, assets that they might have. And that's happening globally. And those investors are really early to the ETF, if you will, journey, and have lots of opportunity there. And then, most recently, you'll have seen that we were selected for the Trump accounts as the default investment. So that's another vector of investor that we think comes online into the indexing platforms.

• 23:46Speaker 04

  Really, really interesting. I want to, I want you to push back on my understanding of indexing in equity and indexing in fixed income. So here's what I have been led to believe, over many, many years of academic study and research, and lots and lots of great academic analysis, it's really, really hard to beat the market through active management of equities. It's relatively easy to beat the market through reducing risk, changing duration, reduce, improving credit quality through active management of fixed income.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  How accurate or inaccurate are those statements?

• 24:32Speaker 05

  So this is a classic of, it depends on how you think about the problem, right? So first, it is absolutely empirically true, that in many spaces in equities, the average manager just does not outperform. We have all those studies from all the various, you know, research that substantiates that. In fixed income, to your point, there is more evidence that active managers can add value. But what's been interesting over the last decade or so, is this rise of better understanding of factor-based investing.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  On fixed income factors.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  On fixed income factors, as, I mean, factor investing's been around for a long time, decades, but within fixed income in particular, I think we've gotten more and more sophisticated models that help us to disaggregate where those returns are coming from. And what we found is that a lot of those active alphas, if you will, a lot of fixed income managers are really one of two things. They go down in credit quality, or they extend duration. And when you actually neutralize for those two things, suddenly, the active fixed income managers don't look quite as heroic, as they did before you adjust for those things. So, one of the big trends that we're really leaning into in fixed income, is that applying that factor-based lens to fixed income, to be able to more stylize

• 25:50Speaker 05

  the portfolio, but do so at a very competitive fee level, and deliver alpha, but alpha through indexing, plus some factor exposures versus kind of just classic fundamental bottoms-ups kind of security selection.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  Really, really interesting. So, what's kind of fascinating about your role, is much of the capital you oversee is deliberately designed to not take an active view. What does it mean to be a CIO at a firm like that? Where do your views show up?

• 26:23Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, the first thing I need to just be, make sure everybody understands, is that we do have active capabilities as well. They're certainly not the massive amount of the, you know, assets that we oversee, but if you look at our fixed income, equity, and multi-asset class strategies that are active in some way, that's a couple hundred billion dollars. So it's not tiny. It would still make us a pretty significant player in this market, even if that's all we did. So we do believe that there are opportunities for active managers to outperform. It's just one of those things where you need to understand, you know, how much to allocate to those active managers, make sure you're picking the very best, because obviously, there are some that can outperform. But I think, from a view

• 27:05Speaker 05

  perspective, it's actually very valuable, having all the different perspectives at the table. We have a chief economist and chief geopolitical analyst. They really help us with what are the expected growth rates around different economies in the world, what are, what are inflation expectations going to look like, what's the sort of backdrop against which we're, against which we're trying to invest, so that we have some sense of are rates likely to move up or down, you know, are, is growth likely to be supportive for earnings, some of those sort of macro factor-setting types of things. And then, I think, within our active teams, and we have a multi-asset class team in particular, they're deploying capital. They're deploying capital into equities, fixed income, subsectors,

• 27:47Speaker 05

  commodities, gold, cash. And so they have a view on which of those areas are going to do best. And obviously, we have lots of discussion amongst ourselves about whether, you know, I personally agree with those views, or don't agree with those views, but ultimately, it really is a committee that gets together and makes those macro calls. And then, within our individual active capabilities, we've got, you know, fundamental and quantitative equity and fixed income. Those portfolio managers are basically charged with, you know, doing the hard work to figure out, you know, how they are going to generate alpha. And we've been quite successful, about 65% of our strategies are outperforming on a trailing one, three-year basis.

• 28:27Speaker 04

  Really interesting. You mentioned a variety of different colleagues, and, and portfolio managers, and economists, and strategists, but really, it's just the tip of the iceberg. You lead a team of over 600 investment professionals, and they're located around the world. How do you keep an investment organization that large and that dispersed, all on the same page, all coherent, all, all moving together?

• 28:56Speaker 05

  Well, I have a lot of help.

• 28:59Speaker 05

  So I think any manager will appreciate that the most important job you do it once you're in a leadership position like mine is you hire well, right? And you let your good people do their work and you pressure test their theses and you make sure, as you said, that everybody is singing from the same hymn book where they need to be, or that they're doing their own thing when that's appropriate. And you provide a sort of guidance and oversight, opportunities to collaborate, all those good things. You know, our business in one sense is a simple business. We're here to serve our clients. We have all the tools at our disposal to serve our clients. We, you know, gather together routinely to develop thematics and market outlooks and other kinds of collateral that both myself and the other senior executives

• 29:44Speaker 05

  can take to our clients as ways to engage with them and demonstrate our facility with markets and our capabilities and insights. And then, you know, basically I let the team do what it does best, which is deliver the results.

• 29:55Speaker 04

  So walk us through a day in the life of a global CIO with $5.7 trillion. I would imagine that day-to-day events are just so overwhelming. No two days really look exactly alike.

• 30:09Speaker 05

  No, it's a bit of a crazy day. It's one of the things I love about the job. But I would say the first thing is I spend a lot of time with clients. So in the first quarter of 2026, I was on 45 planes, traveling around the globe, Middle East, luckily before the war started, Asia, Europe, multiple times, across the US as well. So I spend a lot of time talking to clients of all types. So we have, as I mentioned earlier, a large institutional base of business, some of the largest central banks, sovereign wealth funds across the globe. But we also have a lot of private clients. We have private banks that we work with, you know, large broker dealers that we work with.

• 30:54Speaker 05

  Sometimes I'll even meet directly with end clients, depending upon the forum. So that's, I would say that's probably a good chunk of my time. I do a lot of time, or spend a lot of time rather, on things like strategy. So we have an executive management team, which gets together and talks about, from a business standpoint, where do we want to emphasize? What does that require all of us to do? So for investments, one of our big efforts over the last couple of years has been innovation. Since Yi Xinheng joined us as CEO in 2022, we've been very aggressive in terms of launching new products in new spaces, including partnerships with firms like Bridgewater and Apollo.

• 31:35Speaker 05

  So a lot of the strategy for what do we want to do to be relevant to our clients globally? Ultimately, it comes from the investment team's ability to execute against those mandates. And so we spend a lot of time talking about what kind of resources do we need? What kind of research can we do that addresses the client problem we're trying to solve? How do we partner effectively with these third parties where they might contribute some content? We ultimately own the portfolio construction and we might have our own research that we want to bring into the mix. And so one plus one equals three, but ultimately we're accountable to that for our clients. And then talent. I mentioned earlier that, you know, you need to have really good people.

• 32:18Speaker 05

  So we just came off of our annual talent reviews where I get all my CIOs in a room. We work with our HR business partner. We go through our top talent succession planning. What kind of vectors do we see coming on the horizon? AI right now is a huge theme. So how are we readying our teams to be good stewards and users of AI? And adopt that in ways that we can, you know, make better efficiencies and better judgments. And then the last part of it is there's a lot of reading, listening, consuming information. Again, I am expected to, you know, be the face of State Street Investment Management from a client standpoint. And so I need to know what's going on in the world.

• 33:01Speaker 05

  And as you know, the world's been a really crazy place this year.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  It certainly has. You mentioned Apollo and Bridgewater. The criticism about privates and things like 401Ks or target date products, is they're expensive, all right, so you don't have the liquidity issue, but they're complex. What's the case for putting private assets into a 401K?

• 33:27Speaker 05

  I think there are a couple of things. You know, first and foremost, if you look at the equity side of the ledger, more and more capital creation is happening in private markets.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Meaning pre-IPO before companies are public?

• 33:39Speaker 05

  I mean, back in my early part of my career, and I'm sure yours as well, if a company came public at 100 million, that was a big number, let alone like a billion. That was a nor- or, well, now, yeah. So fast forward, you know, and now we're talking literally in hundreds of not, you know, hundreds of billions or even trillion dollars. So if you think about just that magnitude of opportunity that's lost if you can't participate in those markets, it's just incredible. So that's number one. If you look on the fixed income side, I think you, you know, we've launched Priv, which is a collaboration with Apollo. And there, again, this is investment-grade credit that just happens to be issued in private markets instead of public markets for all manner of reasons.

• 34:23Speaker 05

  It could be that the company wanted to move quickly or they didn't want to go through the, you know, the filing process. Or there might be some specific assets that they want to collateralize with the loan. And so those are really high-quality, investment-grade assets, but they collect a premium for an investor because they're done through the private markets instead of the public market. So to us, those are just natural extensions of what clients should have access to.

• 34:50Speaker 04

  Makes a lot of sense. And we mentioned earlier GLD. What an incredible run gold had in the 2010s, pretty much right up through last year. It's since off, I don't know, about 20, 23%, something like that. When you're thinking about equity and fixed income and alternatives and you see a metal which has been widely traded for thousands of years? Can I say 10,000 years? That some people have been called barbaric. How do you contextualize how GLD trades? And what is driving the psychology of those investors versus all these other asset classes?

• 35:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, so again, I want to take us back a little while because we were advocating for a position in gold in client portfolios for six, seven years. So long before we had this run up to 5,000 and plus. And the basis at the time, obviously, interest rates were very low. So you didn't have an opportunity cost. Today, that's different. But what we were seeing was that fixed income wasn't likely to play the role it historically played diversifying portfolios. You had no income. You likely didn't have a lot of diversification benefit from fixed income because how much lower could rates go, you know, if the market crashed? And we weren't even sure it was going to provide capital preservation.

• 36:19Speaker 05

  And we were right, right? Like if you fast forward a couple of years, that turned out to be a bit of a challenge as well. And so we were looking for other ways or other exposures to put into the portfolio that would provide some of that cocktail of diversification benefit that fixed income just wasn't likely to provide. And so we settled on gold for lots of reasons. And oh, by the way, we were also writing a lot at that point in time about concerns with fiscal profligacy and the fact that the US debt burden was getting large. And this is, you know, several years ago now. It's obviously much bigger now. And gold to us was kind of an interesting asset that would benefit from any kind of debasement concerns or any of these other sort of issues.

• 37:03Speaker 05

  So we advocated clients to add it many years ago. Of course, very few of those clients did so until it went up to, you know, 3,000, then suddenly you started to see more interest. And then 4,000, you start to see a bit more interest. But I would say gold still plays an important role in a portfolio. It doesn't have to be a huge exposure. It protects against a number of different tail risks in a portfolio. Yes, it's expensive from a carry cost standpoint right now, given the give up in fixed income. But we still have in our strategic allocation portfolios, you know, a couple percent allocated to gold because we do think that it provides very distinctive benefits in certain kinds of crises.

• 37:46Speaker 04

  So today we have Bitcoin cut in half from the high. And a lot of the narrative around crypto sounds like sort of a digital refresh of the historic narratives around gold.

• 38:00Speaker 04

  How do you think about crypto? Some of your competitors have aggressively pushed into it. Others have very much steered clear. It might be a little early to declare which side is winning, although anything that gets cut in half kinda comes with a little bit of a black mark on it. How do you think about crypto these days?

• 38:21Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I want to just first share a story. So back in 2012, so this is many years ago now, my daughter and her boyfriend started mining Bitcoin. And of course, being in this industry, I thought they were crazy. Like you can't just-

• 38:39Speaker 04

  What was it, a hundred bucks back then?

• 38:40Speaker 05

  It was under a thousand. I think it might have been five or 600. So it wasn't quite as low, but it was still very, very low. And I thought, you can't just like manufacture, money doesn't grow on trees. You can't just manufacture it, you know, on a computer. But at the time-

• 38:53Speaker 04

  Turns out you can.

• 38:54Speaker 05

  It turns out you can. So I was very skeptical, but I kicked myself for not having at least bought a couple because at the time I could have put $10,000 into it and I'd be-

• 39:03Speaker 04

  Right, 10 million.

• 39:04Speaker 05

  We might not even be having this conversation today. Who knows?

• 39:07Speaker 04

  We would. It would just be on your yacht off of St. Bart's.

• 39:10Speaker 05

  Well, there you go, which wouldn't be half bad, right? It wouldn't be half bad. So in any event, I've never really understood the case. Now, what I will acknowledge is that over the years, I did learn of a couple use cases that made sense to me. So I can remember seeing a woman from Pakistan present, and she was talking about like why Bitcoin is so popular in Pakistan. It was because at least they had a stable currency because it was pegged to the dollar effectively. And so people preferred being paid in Bitcoin instead of getting paid in Pakistani. So I thought, okay, well, that's interesting, but that's a, you know, tiny little use case. But I never really understood because you don't have anybody who's got the taxing authority or the backing of it.

• 39:55Speaker 05

  Whereas even with gold, you've sort of got the central bankers as a collective in some sense back gold.

• 40:01Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 40:02Speaker 05

  There's still massive buyers of gold. In fact, that's surpassed Treasury holdings. So I never really got it. But, you know, you fast forward and suddenly you've got an asset that's up to 30,000, 40,000, you know, over 100,000 at one point in time. And you're like, am I wrong? Like, what am I missing? So I don't know. The jury's out. We do believe in the sort of the digital ecosystem very much. We're trying to, you know, work on tokenization and we're working on all kinds of other sort of digital finance types of endeavors. So there's something about the digital that is very compelling. And in a weird way, it may be that once that digital infrastructure gets more evolved, it'll make Bitcoin even less important, right?

• 40:45Speaker 05

  Because now suddenly you'll get all the benefits of Bitcoin in terms of the tradability and all those kinds of things without having to have the exposure to an asset that I don't know how to price that asset.

• 40:57Speaker 04

  Wildly volatile, to say the very least. Really, really interesting. Coming up, we continue our conversation with Lori Heinel, Global CIO at State Street, talking about the current market environment. I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.

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• 42:56Speaker 08

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• 43:27Speaker 04

  I'm Barry Ritholtz. You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My extra special guest this week is Lori Heinel. She is Executive Vice President and Global Chief Investment Officer at State Street Investment Management, the asset management arm of State Street with 5.7 trillion, with a T, trillion in assets. And that's as of year-end 2025, and we're up 10%, 12% since then in the market. So do the math. I'm going to say over 6 trillion. Let's talk a little bit about the current market environment. Your global market outlook was titled Forward with Focus.

• 44:09Speaker 04

  That sounds like you were constructive on risk assets. I always put a question mark where I see, but you must stay agile. Explain what that means.

• 44:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, so to your point, we did see 2026 as being still a pretty good year for investors. We thought that earnings were going to continue to do well. We thought that inflation, while not quite back to the 2% target that the Fed had set, was marching in that direction and would possibly give some more room for rate cuts in 2026. And so when we talk about being agile, it was focus on equities over fixed income, but do so in a bit more broad-based way. Like, don't just put all your eggs into the large-cap U.S. trade. Look at small caps, maybe even look at things like emerging markets, places where you might get a bit of broadening out of the market as we saw, you know, maturation in 2026.

• 45:04Speaker 05

  Of course, the altercation war with Iran turned that a bit on its head. And so for a short moment, we were revisiting whether that was going to be true. Obviously, inflation became a bigger sticking point once again, or a bigger concern once again, concerns about whether you're going to get that broadening out or whether investors would just sort of go back to the trades that they knew and loved and had, you know, more security in. But I think as we get into the middle of the year, we're seeing that our views were largely rewarded. That sort of moving to small cap and other parts of the market certainly have done quite well on a year-to-date basis. And, you know, we obviously are still worried about fixed income and rates and what that

• 45:47Speaker 05

  might mean as inflation remains a bit more tricky. But, you know, the prints that we're having every month are all over the place. Just as we're speaking, we're having a good CPI print, right? So while we think that the Fed is likely on hold for the balance of the year, we don't see rate hikes in the offing.

• 46:03Speaker 04

  Huh, kind of interesting. We'll talk a little bit about CPI and PPI in a bit. You mentioned something that I want to explore because it's so interesting. So the magnificent seven in 2025, only two of the seven outperformed the S&P 500. I think it was Nvidia and Google. And this year, if you're looking at small cap or mid-cap, you're looking at growth or value, you're looking at Europe, you're looking at developed ex-U.S., you're looking at EM, everything seems to be outperforming large-cap U.S. growth. Is this just the reason to have a diversified portfolio? Or is it indicating, is this a cyclical shift?

• 46:47Speaker 04

  Or is this suggesting something else?

• 46:49Speaker 05

  Yeah. Well, our view is generally to have a diversified portfolio. At the margin, we might favor large cap or favor Europe or favor emerging markets at different points in time based on relative value trading. But we do think that it's incredibly difficult to time those inflection points perfectly. And as you noted, coming into this year, you still had a lot of momentum and flows into the things that had done well in the past, including some of those large-cap names that you mentioned. So, you know, I'm kind of a traditionalist in that way. I do believe you want to be diversified and have exposures to multiple places. But I do think that this AI enthusiasm, I believe in it in terms of a technology.

• 47:33Speaker 05

  But when you look at the massive amount of spending that is now being undertaken by some of these companies, you know, they've gone from leveraging balance sheet cash to make those investments to now accessing fixed income markets in a massive way, and even in some cases, issuing equities. So you do have to sort of wonder whether that, you know, that vein alone is going to be where the money's going to be made going forward. I'm not saying that, you know, they can't still generate good earnings, but there are plenty of other places. If you think about energy, if you think about utilities, you think about all the ecosystem required to enable that AI transformation.

• 48:13Speaker 05

  And then perhaps most importantly, you know, the real economy and how sectors like finance or healthcare or other things are going to benefit from these technologies. I think we're just at the tip of the iceberg in terms of what that will mean for innovation or productivity.

• 48:28Speaker 04

  So when you're looking at this enormous capital spend that you referenced, and we didn't even bring up all the private credit that's been pouring hundreds of billions of dollars into that, how do you judge when the spending is productive and producing sufficient returns? Given how the fire hose of capital, there has to be some misallocation and there are going to be some winners and losers. But when does the next incremental dollar become bad money after good? How can we tell?

• 48:59Speaker 05

  We're watching for when does that capex not translate into incremental earnings.

• 49:07Speaker 04

  So let's stay with the idea of artificial intelligence. You work at a very large asset manager. I would imagine the biggest shops have a little bit of an lasting advantage in deploying AI, not only looking at their own language models that they've created internally, just the ability to deploy that capital way that makes them more, to deploy that technology in a way that makes their capital more efficient, more productive. How are you looking at AI from the perspective of the finance sector?

• 49:43Speaker 05

  Yeah, this is a whole podcast in its own right. But let me just, I guess, share a couple of thoughts. First and foremost, we've been on the AI journey for over a decade. We've been using machine learning and natural language processing and other types of technology in our active strategies for over a decade. And I think it's important to also know as a GCFI, we're a highly regulated institution. So we've also spent many, many years on the infrastructure, governance, other things to deploy these types of tools, being mindful of cybersecurity threats, privacy, all the other things that you would expect a large

• 50:26Speaker 05

  bank to be worried about. So where we are now, I would say the biggest places that we're seeing AI support our business are in more things that are operational in nature, that are repeatable processes, where we can deploy some technology and free up people to do other more interesting things. If you think about some of the marketing elements, things like RFPs, or commentary writing, or other kinds of client servicing elements, they lend themselves beautifully to leveraging this technology, because you have, you know, a database of information, the question might get asked in a slightly different way, and the AI can actually feed back the most relevant answers. And then you have a human in the

• 51:08Speaker 05

  loop, always in our environment today, that ultimately owns the final product. But those are, I think, the sort of early wins for us, is that kind of efficiency gain, leveraging people to do more higher order things. Down the road, will this get more integrated into our investment process and philosophy? We're experimenting with a lot of things. We've got the concept of a research co-pilot, which lets a portfolio manager, you know, survey hundreds, dozens, whatever, you know, research reports, and do so very efficiently using an AI type of a tool. They still have to, you know, pressure test whether the results are getting back, make sense. And they still ultimately make the decision about what they're

• 51:50Speaker 05

  going to do with that information from a portfolio standpoint. But we see lots of opportunities for that kind of augmentation of the human as well.

• 51:57Speaker 04

  Let's talk a little bit about inflation. We've had a series of things that have contributed to it, tariffs, war in the Middle East, et cetera. Here we got the best CPI print we've had in five years, but that's primarily been because we briefly thought the war was over and oil prices plummeted. Now the war is back on, and I track things like the producer price index is six and a half percent. We know that's just going to push into final prices over the next few quarters. So how do you think about inflation and fixed income?

• 52:36Speaker 04

  And specifically, and has macroeconomic forecasting in this environment just become, I don't want to say impossible, but so challenging?

• 52:47Speaker 05

  Well, macroeconomic forecasting is always difficult. And I would say what we've also seen over the last several years is data revisions coming in at a massive level, too. So what you see in a print one day, whether it's the payroll data, or the GDP, or whatever, a quarter later might be changed pretty dramatically. So you have to be a bit humble in this kind of environment when you're making any kind of bold calls. But I would say our core view is that inflation will still trend lower over time. We think it might not get back to the 2% level, but we aren't necessarily thinking that 6% is something that's sustainable. The good and the bad news here is that when you have inflation

• 53:28Speaker 05

  shock coming from things like commodity prices, they rebase. So you get that one time shock, and then you're done, unless there's another shock on top of that. So at some point, that that sort of recalibrates in its own right. I think the thing that we've been most surprised by this year is the underlying resilience of the US economy in particular. We were thinking that labor markets were going to be under a lot more pressure than they ultimately have been, at least so far. We thought that the inflation coming from the war would filter into other places, like fertilizer, and food, and other things, which may still happen, right? We haven't gotten through the farming cycle here in the US. But we're not seeing

• 54:11Speaker 05

  the consumer, while they're stretched, we're not seeing the consumer necessarily pull back the way that we thought that they might. So, you know, the second half will be a very interesting second half.

• 54:21Speaker 04

  Yeah, to say the least. Let's stay with the consumer. There's a couple of things that I've noticed that's kind of interesting. If we look at the second quarter sector breakdown, consumer discretionary, worst performer of the group, essentially flat. If you look at consumer spending, there's a greater reliance on short term credit and credit cards than just salary increases. And then consumer sentiment, and I think we can all agree, the University of Michigan sentiment measures become broken over the past few years. But still, whether you call it the vibes, the sentiment, whatever, seems to be shockingly negative. I don't

• 55:04Speaker 04

  disagree with you about the resilience of the economy, but how do we figure out what's going on with the consumer and their importance to the ongoing resilient economy?

• 55:15Speaker 05

  Well, I think the first thing is that I agree with everything you're saying, but there are also offsets. So people are getting tax refunds. You've got, you know, other benefits coming through from the one big beautiful bill. So you do have some other things that are still propping up the consumer at the margin. And employment still is a, is pretty strong here in the US.

• 55:35Speaker 04

  4.2% unemployment is pretty good.

• 55:37Speaker 05

  So you still have pretty good sort of underpinnings, if you will. But it's clear that the average consumer is feeling like they're losing ground, right? There've been, you know, lots of articles about even couples that are making over $100,000 feeling like they have food insecurity. Well, that's a problem, for sure, and it probably means they're going to pull back somewhere else. But my point is that in the aggregate, whether it's from capex and other corporate spending, the sort of K-shaped consumer economy where the upper echelon, if you will, is being benefited by housing prices, which while they're plateauing, have come up a lot, but asset prices are going up a lot still, there's still a lot of resiliency there.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  So I'm glad you brought both of those up. The pushback I get from bearish colleagues are, A, yeah, the economy looks good, but it's almost all driven by the upper quarter, and I think that's being generous, on the quartile side. But the other criticism is, hey, all of this AI-related capex is masking underlying weakness, although I don't see that weakness in much of the data. What's your response to those sort of criticisms?

• 56:46Speaker 05

  Look, I think that the good and the bad news is that you don't need 100% of the consumers to participate to have the consumer economy doing just fine. So that's a, you know, sad thing in a lot of ways, but it's just the reality. And by the way, your companies are generating productivity from things like the deployment of AI already, and we think that that's very constructive.

• 57:08Speaker 04

  And then, speaking of productivity, we really haven't talked about, you know, everybody talks about the magnificent seven. What about the other 493 companies in SPY that are becoming more efficient, more productive, more profitable?

• 57:23Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 57:24Speaker 04

  How do we contextualize that?

• 57:26Speaker 05

  Well, we think we're in the very, very early innings. So I mentioned earlier, we've got active teams, right? And this is their domain, right? So these are people who are in the tech sector, in the healthcare sector, in the finance sector, doing the hard work to understand who the winners and losers are going to be. And the mantra, over and over again, is that the companies that adopt technology for efficiency gain, for innovation, to create competitive modes, are going to have a really good runway from that deployment. So we are quite optimistic in terms of what that means for long-term prospects.

• 57:56Speaker 04

  So before I get to my favorite questions, there were a couple of items I had to talk to you, ask you about, that are a little more off the beaten path. You were chosen to lead State Street's Fearless Girl campaign. Explain what that is and why you were chosen to take that role.

• 58:19Speaker 05

  Yeah, so this is true serendipity, right? So as with anything, these things take a village, right? And so we had this placement of what is now the iconic statue of the Fearless Girl, initially down on Bowling Green, facing off against the Bull. And I had been one of several people who'd been involved in that effort, and Got a call the night before the statue was going to be placed and somebody said, can you go to New York like now and be there when we place this statue just in case there's attention, just in case some of the networks pick it up.

• 58:55Speaker 04

  And just to flesh that out a little bit, everybody knows the Wall Street charging bull is actually not on Wall Street, it's on Lower Broadway. It's a massive 25 ton statue. The Fearless Girl is proportional real life.

• 59:13Speaker 05

  Eight year old girl.

• 59:15Speaker 04

  A little girl, sort of just standing up to the bull.

• 59:19Speaker 05

  Her little power position.

• 59:20Speaker 04

  Hands on her hips, almost like a Degas sculpture.

• 59:23Speaker 05

  Exactly.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  Standing, staring down the bull. So, so tell us what happened when you were called to New York.

• 59:29Speaker 05

  So I fly down, I show up the next morning, bright and early, and you know, there's a little bit of milling around, it happened to be a rainy day, so there weren't too many people out and about. But suddenly it started to get a little bit of interest. And so we had a couple of reporters, you know, come by and say what's happening. We explained to them that this was a moment where we were trying to, you know, advocate for everybody's future and used it as a, an opportunity, given it was International Women's Day specifically, that that was the timing of the placement. And so one thing led to another, and before you know it, I'm booked on three or four or five news programs over the next 48 hours and telling the story about how the Fearless

• 1:00:10Speaker 05

  Girl came about and why we did it and how important it was to stand up for those who perhaps couldn't stand up for themselves.

• 1:00:17Speaker 04

  So, very successful campaign, and where is the Fearless Girl today?

• 1:00:21Speaker 05

  Well, she is now opposite the New York Stock Exchange. So, one of the things that happened is that she started to attract so much attention that they were worried about the safety risk, because as you know where the bull is, it's a very narrow street there and people were milling onto the street. So we got a permanent, or semi-permanent at least for now, placement in front of the New York Stock Exchange, and that's where she's been since.

• 1:00:43Speaker 04

  That makes a lot of sense, that's, that's a good location for that. So I know you serve on a couple of boards, the one that really jumped out at me, the Boston Ballet. Tell us a little bit about what that's like.

• 1:00:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I've always been a great fan of the arts. I was a gymnast as a child, I wasn't a ballerina, but I think there's a lot of rhyming there. And I've always been a fan of ballet as an art form. And the Boston Ballet is very interesting because they are trying to consolidate both the legacy classical repertoire with a lot of more modern, contemporary, avant-garde kinds of repertoire. And so they did a collaboration with the Rolling Stones, for example, where we did a ballet set to some of the Rolling Stones music. And so it's just been a great way to meet people in the cultural community in Boston, but also be part of art making that, you know, I find just fascinating.

• 1:01:36Speaker 04

  Really, really interesting. So I only have you for a few more minutes, let me jump to my favorite questions, starting with, who were your early mentors? Tell us about who helped shape your career.

• 1:01:47Speaker 05

  Yeah, so I would say, I didn't really think about mentors when I was younger. I would say my bosses were my mentors in the sense that they stretched me, they gave me opportunities. I talked earlier about that situation at First Boston where we were in front of the airport authority and, you know, I would not have had the opportunity to be in a room like that in a lot of companies, but I think my boss felt that I'd done the work and I deserved a place at the table. So throughout, particularly my early career, I would say it was my bosses who stretched me, gave me opportunities. And then I would say about mid-career, I, with another colleague, created this group called Connected Women. It was a very informal type of a thing where a number of women, sort of similar vintages, got together regularly and we became-

• 1:02:30Speaker 04

  Vintages?

• 1:02:31Speaker 05

  Vintages.

• 1:02:32Speaker 04

  If I ever use that in a-

• 1:02:34Speaker 05

  We drank a lot of wine, so I can use the word vintages. So it was really a wine drinking club, but there was a benefit that we got to know each other well, our professional and our personal stories, and so we could help each other out. So when we were, you know, looking at career situations, it was a, a good circle of friends that I could turn to who were in similar states in their careers and trying to make it on the corporate ladder that I could lean on.

• 1:02:59Speaker 04

  Really, really interesting. Let's talk about books, what are, what are some of your favorites? What are you reading currently?

• 1:03:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, so, you know, I tend to like biographies. Read a bunch of the, you know, Chernow, Titan, and House of Morgan, and the Walter Isaacs, and, you know, Stephen Jobs. And I, I like biographies because they meld history with leadership with whatever the, you know, topic is. So obviously with the, you know, the Titan and House of Morgan, it's a finance centric kind of a story, and with Jobs it was a technology centric. But seeing how those leaders navigated, you know, innovation, their time, the people around them, I just find that fascinating. Much better than reality TV, in my opinion.

• 1:03:46Speaker 04

  Well, to say the least.

• 1:03:47Speaker 05

  It is reality TV.

• 1:03:49Speaker 04

  Speaking about TV, are you streaming any Netflix or Amazon Prime type shows?

• 1:03:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, so right now I am on a bit of a hiatus, I've been trying to read some fiction, so I'm doing some Toni Morrison right now. I went to Princeton, as you probably remember, and so I've been trying to do a bit more reading in my spare time.

• 1:04:10Speaker 04

  Our final two questions. What sort of advice would you give to a recent college grad interested in the career in either investing or asset management?

• 1:04:20Speaker 05

  Well, the first thing I would say is it's a fantastic career. You can do so many different things. You get access to technical acumen, you have the interpersonal piece of things, you have to solve problems, I love the problem solving aspect of it. And I think it's something where no matter what your preferences are, you can find your vein, right? You know, I happened to make my way to Global Chief Investment Officer, but there are people in marketing, or people in distribution, or people in processing, and all of those are just absolutely fascinating careers. It's never a dull moment.

• 1:04:50Speaker 04

  And our final question, what do you know about the world of investing and asset management today? Might have been useful back in the 90s when you were first getting started.

• 1:05:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, I wish I'd have started investing earlier and more often. I was a net creditor for many, many, many years because I wanted to have nice clothes and jewelry.

• 1:05:11Speaker 04

  I can't tell you how often I hear that, which is really just a backdoored mission of the power of compounding.

• 1:05:18Speaker 05

  And maybe that Bitcoin, that was my other thing I probably should have done in 2012.

• 1:05:22Speaker 04

  If you had a crystal ball. But, but what's the big insight that, that would have been useful to know generally about markets?

• 1:05:29Speaker 05

  You know, I'm not joking about the early and often, and truth be told, I'm 100% equity invested even now.

• 1:05:37Speaker 04

  I'm a big fan of that as well.

• 1:05:39Speaker 05

  So back in my day, you know, it was the 100 minus your age, which would put me squarely not in the 100% equity category if I followed that rubric. But I think a lot of people would just be served by being in equities, you know, over the long term, unless you only have a couple of years, and who knows, that's where the money is.

• 1:05:58Speaker 04

  This is a little hindsight bias, but I am always shocked, it's literally a chapter in the book, of people who are 20, 30, 40 years old that have a substantial fixed income. I understand it's ballast that offsets the volatility of equity, but really, until you're over 50, maybe even over 60, do you, and getting closer and closer to retirement, do you really need to have 40% of your portfolio in bonds? It doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

• 1:06:26Speaker 05

  Well, look, I mean, for a lot of institutional clients, it makes perfect sense, they're liability matching, right? And they need that fixed income. And I think if you need liquidity, or you're, you know, going to have your children's college education, or weddings, or things like that in a couple of years, absolutely fixed income plays a role. But if you have the ability to not touch that investment capital, I think equities is the way to go.

• 1:06:47Speaker 04

  Thank you, Lori, for being so generous with your time. If you enjoy this conversation, well, check out any of the 649 podcasts we've done over the past 14 years. You can find those at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Bloomberg, YouTube, wherever you get your favorite podcasts. I would be remiss if I didn't thank our crack team that helps put these conversations together each week. Alexis Noriega is my video producer, Sean Russo is my researcher, Anna Luke is my producer. I'm Barry Ritholtz, you've been listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.