Cannonball GTM Crash Course

Founder of Blueprint, Jordan Crawford, delves into the Cannonball GTM Crash Course Show NotesConnect With: Jordan Crawford: Website // LinkedInThe MarTech Podcast: Email // LinkedIn // TwitterBenjamin Shapiro: Website // LinkedIn // TwitterSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  The Martech Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast? I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com.

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  From advertising to software as a service to data, across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55% to 65% open rate.

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  Getting brands authentically integrated into content performs better than TV advertising.

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  Typical life span of an article is about 24 to 36 hours.

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  If we're reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call to action, then it's just a matter of timing.

• 0:53Speaker 00

  Welcome to the Martech Podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. In this podcast, you'll hear the stories of world-class marketers that use technology to drive business results and achieve career success. Here's the host of the Martech Podcast, Benjamin Shapiro.

• 1:15Speaker 04

  The go-to-market landscape is changing fast. Your SDR-led cold outreach strategy, it's dated. Event marketing is costly and infrequent, and paid social is eating organic growth. So how can you stay ahead when everything keeps changing? According to SEMrush's 89 B2B marketing statistics you need to know about in 2024, 34% of B2B marketers struggle to keep up with new tech, including AI. So when the landscape and tooling is constantly changing, how can you best understand your customers' pain points before your competitors do? I'm Benjamin Shapiro, and joining me today is Jordan Crawford, the founder of Blueprint GTM, which helps companies target prospects the exact moment they have their problem.

• 1:58Speaker 04

  And today, Jordan is going to explain how you can transform your go-to-market with intelligence hiding in plain sight. Jordan, welcome back to the Martech Podcast.

• 2:08Speaker 05

  Thanks so much for having me again, Ben.

• 2:09Speaker 04

  It's so exciting to have you back here. You know, you were doing Blueprint and now you're Cannonball GTM. You're all things GTM, in my opinion. Give me the lay of the land when it comes to GTM today.

• 2:21Speaker 05

  Well, I'm so grateful to be here and thanks for having me back once more. So I think that the best place to start is really, we have this new amazing tool that is AI. And people are very familiar with ChatGPT and Claude and they're trying to adopt these AI solutions. But the problem is that we're fitting them into an old framework. So the brand new tools are coming to an old framework. And the way that I talk about this is what you're doing is you're putting a legless robot on a horse. You don't get any of the benefits of the robot and the horse still takes a shit. So let's talk about the old way, right? First, what you would do is you would identify accounts. You'd go to ZoomInfo, you'd go to Apollo, not on LinkedIn anymore. So maybe you would just go to ZoomInfo if you found accounts.

• 3:03Speaker 05

  Then you would write persona level messages like, so people like Ben care about blah, blah, blah. Then you'd go and find contacts. How do I get their email? How do I get their phone numbers? Then you'd say to your SDRs, like, here's what people like Ben like. Can you personalize this to Ben? And then you'd scale with a tool like Outreach or SalesLoft. Ben, is this unfamiliar to you?

• 3:22Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, I tried this last year. It was a miserable failure.

• 3:25Speaker 05

  Yeah, the challenge is that we have this amazing tool called AI that can just drastically change our results. But we aren't using the brand new framework to take advantage of AI where we can get the 10x benefit without the sort of hallucinations, et cetera. So let's talk about where current products are slotting in so you can understand why they aren't working.

• 3:48Speaker 04

  I think there's an important part that you missed, though.

• 3:50Speaker 05

  I didn't miss anything. I got it all.

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Look, it's my show and I'll tell you what you missed.

• 3:55Speaker 05

  Okay, okay.

• 3:55Speaker 04

  You just stopped too early. We're not done yet. You missed the end result. Yes, the framework is find the accounts, segment them, give them to somebody, tell them to attack, and then send a message is the last part. Everything was sent over primarily email or LinkedIn. And you're sending these pseudo personalized messages. And the delivery mechanism is a cold email that is not specifically targeted to what my world is like right now. It's targeted towards what my segments world is right now.

• 4:26Speaker 05

  That's a really interesting point. And actually, let's describe things in two ways here. First, let's talk about what non-email channels were doing. Intent data. So it's like, hey, the best version of quote-unquote intent data is like Google searches. So if someone searches "left sock now, San Francisco," right? It's like, they want a left sock now, right? Great, that's amazing. Then you get a step away and you get to like Facebook and LinkedIn ads where it's like, "Look, we're gonna use amazing amount of machine learning to determine click rates. Don't worry about it. Just pay for the fancy ad and we'll determine who." So you, as the marketer, don't have to worry about it. And then the sort of most voodoo form of that is the tools like Sixxen or G2, where it's like, "We de-anonymize people that are in the Salesforce tower, and don't worry, it's not the intern, it's the buyer, economic buyer,

• 5:11Speaker 05

  that is for sure searching in your category and has this. And by the way, we're gonna integrate with your CRM, and we're gonna stamp all the leads as like, 'We gave you those leads.'" So this is like kind of the non-email channels. And the problem is that all of that stuff is like really foggy. You can't control it. You can't control the targeting, right? Now, on the email side, you can control the targeting. And the way in which people think about this in sort of this old way is like, "Well, we have tiered accounts. These are our best accounts. Well, why are they best accounts? Well, because they have $100 million." So what we do is we look at wallet size, and if your wallet is big enough and has enough money, we like that wallet. So once we're gonna send that wallet to the SDR and say, "Find a way to get into that wallet." And you know what the SDR says? "I like your brown wallet. It's my favorite color, brown. I love that color wallet. I'm wondering if I could get inside of it." That's what the message looks like.

• 5:55Speaker 05

  Now, the thinly veiled version of that message is, "Jordan, I saw you commented on Ben Shapiro's post. Boy, isn't Ben a great guy with a great voice? And isn't he great with the podcast that he does? Ben is great. My B2B SaaS software helps companies do it, blah, blah, blah, blah." Like, this is what it looks like. It's all of this, and ChatGPT is only gonna make this worse, because this model is broken. And the way that I talk about this is, "Let's say you had perfect information about me. Jordan, I know you woke up at 9:54 and that you had an espresso, and you probably had too much espresso. I can tell because you're on this podcast saying deranged things." So you have perfect information about me.

• 6:32Speaker 04

  Are you sure it was espresso? Let's move along.

• 6:36Speaker 05

  People probably have to edit more. So really, the thing is that you can easily evaluate this, which is 100x improve some vector. So if you 100x improve the personalization vector, it has nothing with my desire to buy Ramp or to buy Rippling. The only reason I buy Rippling is because I'm interested in messing with Deal. That doesn't actually help us.

• 6:56Speaker 04

  You wrote my favorite LinkedIn post, I think of all time, which speaks specifically to this, which is, "Hey, I see you breathe air. I like to breathe air. Let's connect on LinkedIn so I can sell you..." Like, that's the strategy that we've been applying. I have an observation about something that you like. Maybe it's personalized, maybe it's vague and obtuse, and hopefully, depending on the level of personalization I have, how close that is to being true, that should indicate your probability of buying. And the reality that you're about to get to is that's not true. So tell me what actually works as opposed to this observational theory of communication.

• 7:35Speaker 05

  Sure. Well, I do want to linger for just a minute on the current world because it's really important to think about buying software in this old world because new technologies are bolting onto old frameworks. For example, the count selection. Well, in sort of B2B SaaS, the best version of this are signals. I don't know if you know, in the past, what people used to do, the best sort of signal was raising funding. So I'd say, "Ben, I saw that you just raised $10 million. Now that you have $10 million, I would like some of that $10 million. Do you have some of that for me?" And weirdly, that worked for a while.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  It wasn't that, "Hey, you have money, I have money." It is, "You have money, you're thinking about expansion, you haven't gone into this version of marketing, now can I have your money?"

• 8:17Speaker 05

  The generous version of this is like, as you grow, you're gonna need to insert any tool at all related to growth, which is every tool. The thing is that that doesn't differentiate. So these signal-based platforms, they're selling you the same thing as that. Think about any product that you know where more people use it and it gets worse. That's not the case. Uber, right? If there's like one driver and one passenger, you're gonna wait for about 46 hours for that driver to get to you. But if there's 1,000 drivers and a Thousand passengers, suddenly you're waiting minutes. Then you could instantly have a driver. And so more users on the Uber network makes it better. But more people that are leveraging the same signals actually make them worse.

• 8:59Speaker 05

  Because more people are saying, well, when you raise and I'll raise and I'll sell this growth thing. And so it gets worse. So this is kind of the problem that we're struggling with on these tools that are trying to slot into the account side. Now, there are tools that are on the contact side. These have been net beneficial. We call these waterfall providers now. So people like Full and Rich, it's a company that I advise, fantastic. They hit a bunch of different providers to find like this is the, they're selling truth. This is the best email, the best phone number. But the key problem of the day is not that we need more contacts. That's not the challenge. Now, this is helpful in the new world, but in the old world, having better contact data is not the problem. Let's talk about the personalization for just a minute. This is where the AI SDR slots in. The AI SDR is not saying, I will write a better message for you.

• 9:44Speaker 05

  It's, I know that you're eating broken glass and every time you take a bite of broken glass, it costs you $10. I'm going to sell you that same bite of broken glass for a dollar per chew instead of $10 per chew. And so like, oh my gosh, amazing. I can eat broken glass at a tenth the price. So this is what these AI SDRs are selling you. They're saying, look, you're wasting money now. I'm going to waste a lot less of money, but I'm still going to waste it for you.

• 10:09Speaker 04

  Ironically, the SDRs are priced, the virtual SDRs are priced essentially the same as a regular SDR, which I find hilarious because it doesn't solve the problem that they're actually getting towards. But I digress, go on.

• 10:22Speaker 05

  Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean, I think in that case, what they're saying is we'll send 10 times the number of messages. They're saying that your SDRs are sending broken messages. And by the way, I do think that in this world, they are writing better messages than your SDRs. So they're not over-personalizing. What they're trying to say is three sentences. Basically, they just take the reading level that your SDR should have and they actually write to that reading level. So they're like, hey, actually send a message that is shorter.

• 10:48Speaker 04

  We're off the reservation. Tell me what's working right now.

• 10:50Speaker 05

  Okay, great. So let's talk about Jordan's way. This is the way that I think about the world. First, you need to identify your best segment. So a segment is really the really key piece here. And you know what? There's only one group of people in your organization that understand the segment. And ironically, those are your best SDRs. They're your best AEs. For example, a company that I was chatting with, Overjet, they sell dental AI. Well, what does that mean? This is an FDA clear device that can do a bunch of things. But one of the things it can do is detect periodontal disease. Turns out 67% of the time, that is undiagnosed. So when we basically said, get your best SDRs, what do you look for? Well, like, one of the things that the SDRs looked for was like, age of the dentist. Okay, but how does that help?

• 11:34Speaker 05

  It's like, well, sometimes old people don't adopt new things. And sometimes young people do adopt new things. I'm like, okay, but there are old people that adopt new things. And there are young people that don't like to adopt new things. So that doesn't really help. But one of the things that they looked for was, is this in an area that is highly diabetic? It's like, oh, why? It's like, well, it turns out that periodontal disease is correlated highly with diabetes. Okay, wow, really interesting, right? And who has that? Do you find that in Zoomable? Can you find like percent of population of diabetes? No, but it turns out the CDC, if, uh, check our timers, the CDC is still around? As of when we started this recording, the CDC was around.

• 12:09Speaker 04

  2:58, March 20th. The CDC is still here.

• 12:13Speaker 05

  Yeah. So that was really interesting, right? So we have a segment now, and that segment is who is under finding the most amount of periodontal disease? Okay, great. Now, what's the data? So the next piece is segment, then we have the data. So in this case, the data is a list of cities from the CDC with the highest gross prevalence of diabetes. So it turns out that Kennedy, Texas, 25% of the people in Kennedy, Texas, have diabetes. So one in four people that you meet, that person has diabetes.

• 12:42Speaker 04

  If I had to guess, I'd say Kennedy, Texas is like a one stoplight town with a Whataburger on each side.

• 12:49Speaker 05

  Actually, probably four Whataburgers, given the prevalence of, look, you can't cross the street.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  And I'm not saying anything bad about Whataburger, but go on.

• 12:57Speaker 05

  I love me some Whataburger, yeah. Okay, so now we have prevalence of diabetes. So we've got a segment and data. In that data, usually there is tension. And in this case, that tension is high prevalence of diabetes, which, by the way, the first thing we did is we looked a lot of dentists in that area, and it turns out they all talk about periodontal disease on their website. So it's like, aha, I can find that there is truth in this information. Okay, great. Segment plus data.

• 13:20Speaker 04

  Hang on, segment plus data. I want to do my job here as the podcast host. You're going down in order of progression. First, you figure out what the best segment is, then you're finding your own data signal that's going to allow you to identify it. Keep going.

• 13:33Speaker 05

  There's five steps here. We're on the first two. Now, data is usually two to five unique data points. So we have the periodontal disease. We also know that the prevalence of misdiagnosis is going to be higher because there are more people with diabetes, right? And that means that there's a delta here, which is the number of cases that you find now without the dental AI and the number of cases you can find. That's money, right? But more importantly, the money for these dentists, it's care value. Great, so we have those two things, right? So we've got the segment data. Now, the next piece is the message. And it turns out that one form of this message is just describing those two things. Ben, as you know, in Kennedy, Texas, diabetes is out of control here.

• 14:15Speaker 05

  And as you likely know, because your website talks about it, periodontal disease is highly correlated to diabetes. Now, given the population in Kennedy, Texas, five out of every 20 people that you see is likely to have periodontal disease, you're probably only identifying one out of every 20. That means that if you could identify every case of periodontal disease early, you can capture $42,568 in care value for your patients. You can with our FDA-approved device. Do you want me to come over next week and show it to you?

• 14:48Speaker 04

  There's a lot to unpack there. You've taken your signal, you're benchmarking against the essentially national averages or what you understand about the area, but you're also identifying the value for the prospect, right? You can identify four more people with periodontal disease, which is worth X, Y, and Z. How do you know how much that's worth to them? That seems like an important part.

• 15:10Speaker 05

  The thing is, they have some internal data, which is they know, because they work with the insurance companies, they're submitting these claims. So they know what identifying and fixing this is, I mean, they know how helpful it is to their patients, which is most important. But also, I can tell them what every new identification of periodontal disease will make for them in revenue from the insurance companies. So the key message that I lead with is about the care value, because that's what the dentists care about, right? They really care about their patients. If I said, "You swashbuckler, you could make another $100,000." Now, that'll work for you and me. We are swashbucklers, we will take the money. But dentists are like, "No, I want to protect Casey. Casey is my patient, I care about her."

• 15:51Speaker 04

  I would sure hope so.

• 15:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, but a good dentist. So then you can actually provide that value to them. So, once you have the message, this is the only channel, the only process, where you can identify good, fit leads at the person level. Well, why does that matter? Because with intent data sources, with keywords, et cetera, Facebook, Google, they're like, "Don't worry about it, who knows?"

• 16:14Speaker 04

  I don't need to know I'm targeting Jordan Crawford, I need to know I'm targeting someone at GTM who might be a decision maker.

• 16:21Speaker 05

  And who's gonna click. And I'm selling you the click, I'm not selling you the person. But the problem with that is that the way in which you get to a message that resonates is you just throw a bunch of crap at Facebook, and Facebook's like, "I'll take your money to test all the crap for you, I'll tell you which one clicks the best." And all the down funnel stuff, you have to figure about. But the nice thing about my approach is that you can go from a level of person and go backwards to other channels. That means cold calling, that means email, that even means ads, because you can get people's unique, personal information that you can upload to these tools to target them. Which means that I can send an ad just to those people, the actual dentists that work at the actual practices, in these actual locations, where you can make commitments

• 17:06Speaker 05

  about the change.

• 17:07Speaker 04

  I gotta stop you because this is where you lost me the last time I went to see you speak in person and I was like, okay, you did this whole prompting thing where you did your market research, you figured out your segment in less than an hour, basically did an entire GTM. That's the GTM cannonball. Went through this entire process and you called this the PVP, Permissionless Value Prop. Did I get it right?

• 17:27Speaker 05

  Yeah, so we haven't yet talked about PVP. I can talk about that now if you'd like.

• 17:31Speaker 04

  So I thought the PVP was the message that you're sending, which is something that's so good that people would pay to receive it. Hey, I know I can identify 37 more people out of 100 that have periodontal disease. That's worth a million dollars to you. Can I tell you more? Right? That's the PVP?

• 17:48Speaker 05

  That is not yet a PVP. So let's talk about the Permissionless Value Prop. This is another form that the message and the data plus the segment can take. So the PVP is called the Permissionless Value Prop. And really, one of the benefits of AI is that can take large amounts of information and structure it for us. So to be able to write a PVP message, you must think about what do your prospects care about the most? What is deeply important to them? And then you must think what is deeply important to them, what is related to my product, and what is public data that I can put together that's useful? These three things must be true. So let me give you a example of this. And in this case, we're going to use private data, but I can give you a public data example, too. So we're with a company that sells to

• 18:29Speaker 05

  pool cleaners, right? They're a pool cleaner CRM. Interestingly enough, they have aggregate data on what companies are charging for a pool cleaning, which is not public data. So they can send a message that says, Ben, we work with thousands of pool professionals in 95125. The optimal price to charge for a pool cleaning is $169. We have found that people charge between $80 and $325. And the best uptake, the best price to charge is $169 with chemicals. Do you want me to tell you how I know? That's an example of a PVP. Now, let me give you another example to make this a little bit more concrete. Let's say you are a chief marketing officer and you have just started a company, right? Or even a product

• 19:12Speaker 05

  marketer. What's like some of the most important thing for you to do when you started this company?

• 19:17Speaker 04

  Fire everyone. Start using AI. Sorry, everybody. Everybody's losing their jobs. No, the first thing I would do is listen and understand what people are doing and then evaluate whether it's working or not.

• 19:28Speaker 05

  Classic answer, right? My guess is you probably want to understand something about the market too that you're in, right?

• 19:32Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 19:33Speaker 05

  Okay, so imagine this, you start, you're a week into the job and I send you a message, Ben, from what I can tell, your top five competitors are blah, blah, blah, blah. I have parsed through 42,368 G2 reviews of all of your competitors and I have found the top five things that people complain about, that they think great of your software, and also that I can't find any mention of on your website. As you're thinking about your positioning, these are the things that you might want to consider. That is taking public data, I am organizing it for you, I'm structuring it, and I'm giving you the insight. I'm actually telling you. Another version of this is I had a conversation with a company that does brand compliance, which is an awful sounding thing.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  But it's actually really helpful for alcohol companies. So it turns out that one of the things that you can't do is you can't put Santa with your beer. You get in trouble because you're associating that this is a thing for kids. You actually can get fined here. So imagine if I go to you as the chief legal officer and say, Ben, I've looked at all 15,000 of your ads across four countries that you're currently serving ads in. Did you know that these three ads have cartoon characters? And in the last four months, there has been $50 million in lawsuits settled for alcohol brands that put cartoon characters on their ads. I thought it would be useful for you to know about this so that you can remove it.

• 20:58Speaker 04

  I get the examples of the permissionless value prop. Is there a format or a system that marketers can use to think about creating their own?

• 21:06Speaker 05

  Yes, this is the go-to-market cannibal. And I should finish the last piece of the argument, which is, once you channelize the message, which is you can format it for ads, so segment, data, message, you channelize that, which is that you can use AI to basically reformat it for an ad, you can reformat it for an email, a phone call. Then the way in which you scale is you start over with a different segment. You tackle this segment by segment by segment by segment. That's the sort of argument here. Now, the go to market cannonball is our process for getting to the PvP as fast as possible. So we have 90 minutes to take a brand that we don't know from a hole in the ground to a PvP message. Now, generally, we take vertical SaaS companies because they understand their ICP a lot better than horizontal SaaS companies. Horizontal SaaS companies have a really hard time.

• 21:51Speaker 05

  It's like, well, who do you sell to? It's like, not only everyone that has a wallet, anyone that has a credit card, a bank account that breathes, that has hair, that has ever been to Jamaica, like, it's just a random hodgepodge.

• 21:59Speaker 04

  I'm in your target market. I went to Negril for spring break.

• 22:03Speaker 05

  So we take companies that have a really good opinion about their ICP. And usually that's because they focus their product on one. Then we run the find process. And the find process is focus, investigate, narrate, and deploy. Four simple steps. This is really how to get the best out of AI. So the focus piece is about warming up the model and warming up the people using the model. And that's a mutual thing. You both have to be into it.

• 22:27Speaker 04

  I think they call that consent.

• 22:29Speaker 05

  So focus, what you're trying to do is you're saying, understand my ICP, understand my persona, understand my competitors. Now, ChatGPT deep research can do this live for you. It'll take about 10 minutes, which is longer than you and I have ever worked in our lives combined, Ben. So you can see ChatGPT do all this great work. You can see the persona, you can see the ICP, you can have an understanding of competitors, you can figure out what are great data sources. So the model can start to get really, really good context in your customers. What are you saying? And what you're trying to do in that focus stage is figure out like, what is the really best segment? And the good thing about this is that it helps you place those ideas in your head. And the model starts to get an understanding of what the hell it's doing.

• 23:11Speaker 04

  When I went through your case study, your Cannonball GTM, you're sitting there talking through deep research to ChatGPT and evaluating what it's returning back and asking for, what's the segment? How should I evaluate it? Which is the best segment? How big is the opportunity? Where do I find people? What are the data sources? And you went through and basically had a conversation with the AI and did all the segmentation work that most marketers would have. Done in six months. The process is amazing and everybody should go and watch your online content to be able to see it. First off, where do people see you're doing lives?

• 23:45Speaker 05

  Lives. Yeah. Fridays every nine AM Pacific, cannonballgtm.com.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Yeah, not a sales pitch. Everybody go on Friday and watch Jordan go through the process. Just seeing how he writes his prompts is insightful and he's not writing them. He's actually just having a conversation with the GPT. It's really great. You go through and you get this sort of structure of your segments and the machine is doing the work for you. Then you start writing your permissionless value prop. Keep going.

• 24:08Speaker 05

  So, once you and the model are together warmed up, then you do the investigate. Now, the investigate stage is really about identifying the segment plus the data. So you're really trying to figure out where you can combine these two things. Now, the nice thing about that, and this is where the PvP is from, the permissionless value prop. And what you're trying to do is you're going to ask the model a question like this. And I'm going to, for all of you folks that are taking the transcript here, I'm going to dehumanize you for a minute Ben, and just like pretend like I'm talking to a...

• 24:34Speaker 04

  It's okay. It might not even be a real person on the other end.

• 24:37Speaker 05

  Okay, so this is like a message I would say. I'm trying to identify the best segments for me. Generally, what I mean by a segment is where two to five data sources can come together, where I can send a message to someone that they would pay to receive. Example ideas behind this message are where I'm trying to basically give some data to this person that is independently useful from my product or service. Now, a couple of things must be true about this. The data sources must be public, the data must be related to the product that I solve, and it must make a promise in the message itself. And an example of a message like this is where I can take information about regulators that are monitoring railroads and reporting on fines and say to a railroad operator,

• 25:22Speaker 05

  I don't know if you know this, but there is a railroad very much similar to you. And it turns out that regulators right now are focused on Tuscaloosa, Alabama. But historical data shows that they're going to be in your town next. And these are the three things that they're likely to find. You might want to address these before you get a $40,000 fine. Now create that for me in my industry and abstract this idea away from this particular instance. So that would be like a prompt that I would provide. In this case, I would provide it to Claude.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  Right, and so it gives you a permissionless value problem. Now, one thing I noticed, there wasn't really a call to action there. "Hey, here's the information, here's what might happen, this is gonna be useful to you." "Hot tip, you know, I shined the bat spotlight on the moon." And all of a sudden, everybody sees, "Oh, there's this problem, right? I've unearthed it for you."

• 26:08Speaker 05

  Or value, it's not a problem necessarily, it's just like straight value.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  It's their problem and the solution, so here's the value from the email. "Wanna set up a demo? Wanna call? Wanna talk some tight? Should we get drinks? How do you actually turn this into a conversation and a prospect?"

• 26:24Speaker 05

  This is where the art comes in, apart from the science, because really the PvP, like many other things, could be weaponized. And I was chatting with a founder that has tried to weaponize this, that what they did is, this company I was talking about that does this brand stuff, they pulled all the data from Facebook Ads Library, and they tried to identify what you were doing that was like against Meta's best practices. Very clever idea to say, "Hey, Ben, you're not including enough audio in your messages, or you're not doing this, right?" But the problem is that it wasn't related to their brand promise at all. So, let's say in the case, they're like, "This is really cool, how are you gonna help me add more images to my..." And like, "Oh, we don't do that." It's like, "Well, why did you even contact me?" So, what I said to them is, I said, "It's a different thing when you go say,

• 27:08Speaker 05

  'Hey Corona, here are the 10 ads across four geographies that are included pictures of cartoons, you want to remove these immediately because they're likely to get you X number fines.'" And by the way, I've already found the four people in those four regions that I think might be responsible for those ads, if you don't know who they are internally, because you're a big company. Now, the sort of ask here is, "Do you want me to do this for you on an ongoing basis?" So, what I've done is I've reoriented the product to the public web. I've turned the product to be permissionless. I've said, "You don't have to log in, you don't have to connect your data sources, you don't have to do any of that stuff. I've already done it for you, I've connected public data, I've structured it, I've delivered that public data to you." The thing is, you don't have to like hack the ask.

• 27:51Speaker 05

  "Hey, what are you doing on Tuesday at 5:00 PM? Do you have 15 minutes? Do you have 12 minutes? Do you have 34 seconds?" You don't have to do any of that stuff. Because if you have done the PvP right, it's like, "Oh..." I will get on that immediately, or even I could say, these are the top four. I found 26. Do you want me to show you how? Do you want the other 26? I'm only selling a reply. I'm not selling my product. I'm not even selling a meeting. I'm just saying, what is a message that is independently useful that I can deliver? And if you got it right, people will respond.

• 28:21Speaker 04

  Sure. You're delivering value upfront and now you have someone's attention. And then there's the question of, all right, I'm going to give you four of the 26 leads and everybody's business model is going to be a little different. Podcast production, right? If I'm using this for my business, it's like, hey, I've identified five problems with the podcast you're having, and here's the growth solutions for it. I also have 27 more tips for you.

• 28:43Speaker 05

  No, no, no. This is the hardest thing that people get wrong about the PvP is that they think that it is about things that you can then action on. No, no, no, no. It is actually delivered value. So think about this. Your case is a little harder, but if you think about the rail case, for example, the email is independently valuable. Now, a lot of people get this wrong because in their mind, they're holding this thing. It's like, hey, here are things that you're doing wrong and here are tips to fix them. That still means that I gotta take action to go do that. You're still selling yourself. It's a different thing if you said, I have found the 52 clips that your CEO has made from around the podcast he made from around red that haven't made it to your website. And I've already written content in your style. Here are the links. We do this.

• 29:27Speaker 05

  If that was like a thing that you did. So it's already done for you. There's unique value in it already that is like ready to go. Now, that's not a perfect PvP because they still have to go do something. Ideally, the information in it of itself is actionable. It is useful. In the marketing example, I can actually tell you the things that you should change in your marketing and why, and anchor that against data. So that's like a PvP.

• 29:49Speaker 04

  I still am fuzzy on, okay, great. I've delivered all this value to you. Here's all the things that are wrong with this podcast and here's the solution for it.

• 29:56Speaker 05

  Well, the podcast thing-

• 29:57Speaker 04

  Forget the podcast, the railroad thing. Here's why you're in Mobile, Alabama, and you might get fined.

• 30:03Speaker 05

  So basically, the next step is that software is going to monitor for compliance issues and tell you what to fix. It's directly related to that. So instead of me having to email you, so the brand guideline, for example, in this product's example, they're actually monitoring upstream at the Photoshop level. So when the person at Photoshop is like, let's add a Santa and a bunny and like have them all drinking together in a fire, and that person hits submit, it's like, hey, just so you know, there is a $40 million fine that we're gonna get if you keep going here. Like, start over. That's what the product does. Hey, legal officer, you don't want to have to wait until you publish ads that you don't even know about. It's like, you want to do that stuff upstream.

• 30:43Speaker 04

  The last question I have for you, the PvP. I understand it's the permissionless value prop. You're gonna give information that is uniquely valuable to a prospect upfront with the hope that they'll want you to continue to have you monitor and manage the value that you're creating. Who's it for and who doesn't it work for?

• 31:02Speaker 05

  Generally, the PvP is really easier to do where there's public industry data. So compliance, think the FDA, think the CDC, where you can find some public leakage of the data. It's really harder to do for like industries that are really unregulated. It's harder to do, horizontal SaaS is really hard because to do the PvP well, you have to pick a super niche segment. You really have to go super deep because if you imagine a segment and you say, well, my product can help B2B SaaS marketers and also product managers at trucking companies. Those two people care about way different things. So it really works well for vertical SaaS companies, companies that are in regulated industries.

• 31:44Speaker 05

  It works well where they have some forced interaction with the government, where there are consequences. It really works well when you know your customer so well and you can have an idea about like, where can I pull together data from the public web that will work great for them?

• 31:59Speaker 04

  Let me distill this down.

• 32:00Speaker 05

  If you must.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  This is my job. Let me roll for a second because we covered a lot of ground here. And while the PvP might be a perfect utilization of your go to market for a vertical SaaS company. The concept of using the deep research from ChatGPT to understand your market, to analyze and pick out a segment, to find relevant data sources, to think of a way to deliver value upfront. Maybe it's not getting all the way down into your PvP where you're delivering value upfront and then asking to replicate that value through delivery. And that's how you're monetizing. But the process of getting to that is something that's useful for any marketer. You can understand your segment easier than ever before.

• 32:44Speaker 04

  You can just talk to your computer and it will do the analysis for you. You can find the data sources. You can put them together. You can analyze them and you can turn those into messages yourself faster than ever before.

• 32:57Speaker 05

  Yeah, and that's the PMJ, Poor Man's Jordan, which is deep research. So Poor Man's Jordan is you can ask deep research to do this for you. So come watch the Cannonball. You'll get the fine methodology, focus, investigate, narrate, deploy. The narrate will tell you how to talk and the deploy is like how you use tools like clay, et cetera, to deploy this. But if you follow the methodology, you can use the PMJ, Poor Man's Jordan. With ChatGPT, click deep research. After you do this, follow the methodology and you can get there.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  Always with the acronyms, Jordan. All right. And that wraps up this episode of the Martech Podcast. Thanks to Jordan Crawford, the founder of Blueprint for joining us. If you'd like to contact Jordan, you could find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes or you can visit his company's website. It's blueprintgtm.com. He's also doing LinkedIn Lives for the Cannonball GTM every Friday. They're totally fascinating. You should absolutely check them out. And if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of marketing and technology knowledge in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed every week. All right, that's it for today. But until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy.

• 34:29Speaker 00

  Thanks for listening to the Martech Podcast, an I Hear Everything production. Looking to launch or scale a podcast like this one for your brand? Then visit iHearEverything.com.