Pod Insights MarTech Podcast ™ // Marketing + Technology = Business Growth AI Personalization in Direct Mail Campaigns About this episode Direct mail faces attribution and personalization challenges despite rising investment. Ryan Ferrier is CEO of Lob, the direct mail automation platform serving over 12,000 businesses with API-driven mail campaigns. The discussion covers AI-powered routing algorithms that optimize speed versus cost trade-offs, personalized QR codes with custom landing pages achieving 5% average conversion rates, and automated address verification systems that prevent undeliverable mail sends. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 The Martech Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast? I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iHereEverything.com.
0:25 Speaker 01 From advertising to software as a service to data, across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55% to 65% open rate.
0:36 Speaker 02 Getting brands authentically integrated into content performs better than TV advertising.
0:42 Speaker 03 Typical lifespan of an article is about 24 to 36 hours.
0:46 Speaker 01 If we're reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call to action, then it's just a matter of timing.
0:53 Speaker 00 Welcome to the Martech Podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. In this podcast, you'll hear the stories of world-class marketers that use technology to drive business results and achieve career success. Here's the host of the Martech Podcast, Benjamin Shapiro.
1:15 Speaker 04 82%. 82% of marketers plan to increase direct mail investment in 2025, according to Lob's State of Direct Mail Report. Marketers are dialing up physical mail even as postal costs increase. So how can direct mail win as digital marketing becomes more prevalent and sophisticated? Well, we're not talking about your grandfather's batch and blast postcards. Even if it looks analog, direct mail acts a lot like email. With AI-powered, data-driven triggers sent the moment your cart is abandoned, somebody shows up at your website, any sort of digital triggers, you can send off collateral that shows your products and then gives links back to what's happening online. Most marketers still think of mail as slow, expensive, impossible to measure, and they're
1:58 Speaker 04 missing how to link the physical touchpoint to digital conversions. I'm Benjamin Shapiro and joining me today is Ryan Ferrier, the CEO of Lob, the platform helping brands like La Osatane, Row and Simply Safe build next-generation mail at scale via APIs and a nationwide printing network. And today, Ryan is going to show us how AI is transforming direct mail from legacy laggard to precision marketing weapon that cuts through digital fatigue. Ryan, welcome to the Martech Podcast. Thanks for having me.
2:28 Speaker 05 Having me.
2:29 Speaker 04 Excited to have you on the show. You know, I've long admired your company back in my last job. It's actually 10 years ago yesterday. I was the head of marketing at an early stage startup, and we were really reliant on Lob as it was just getting started. So I feel like we've both been in this game for a long time. It's great to finally get to sit down with you and learn a little bit more about it.
2:51 Speaker 05 It's great to me. You you've been familiar with Lob longer than I have. I've been at Lob seven years and known about Lob for eight years. So you've actually known about Lob before me.
3:00 Speaker 04 There you go. Well, let me teach you a couple of things about how the platform used to work. I'm sure it's totally different than what's happening now. And let's talk about the the actual now of direct mail. Explain why Lob's state of direct mail research report shows that companies are doubling mail volumes despite the rising costs of postage.
3:19 Speaker 05 Yeah, I think the the large reason is that people have a ton of digital fatigue. I feel like for a lot of people, their email inbox has kind of become a graveyard. People understand that digital ads with every incremental eyeball, it actually gets more expensive. And the more accessible that the direct mail channel is becoming, folks are realizing that that the actual mailbox is not as crowded as those digital channels. And particularly among Gen Z and millennials, which is surprising, there's not the same fatigue. There's actually a kind of a wow, surprise and delight factor
4:01 Speaker 05 that comes with receiving something, you know, tactile and physical that you can touch. So those are the major reasons. I think the other thing is we're seeing a renaissance in the channel because the folks that we we work with can now speak the language of the CMO, and that's language about cost to acquire customer, ROI, omni-channel communication.
4:25 Speaker 05 And part of our mission, we have a we have a persona at these companies that we call Mailhouse Melvin. It's this person that he's been, you know, he's been in the mailhouse for the last 30 years at a at an insurance or financial services company, right? And we're really trying to transform that mailhouse Melvin persona into an ROI rock star persona.
4:46 Speaker 04 Yeah, we're we're moving Melvin to just Mel.
4:51 Speaker 05 Yeah, just just Mel, just Mel. And and it's not just that there there's these folks who are undergoing their own professional and, you know, personal transformation. There's a new crop of marketers who, you know, they're they're always hungry for another channel and for them, direct mail is becoming the third leg of their of their stool next to email and and digital ads.
5:12 Speaker 04 One of my dreams as a marketer was to come into a legacy brand that's gone upon hard times and, you know, you sort of strip down the old warehouse and you you show the exposed beams and, you know, get it back to what's cool and rustic and unique about it and then go forward into the market with this innovative new brand that's actually an old brand that has know, like and trust already built into it. And and you're kind of doing that, but not with a brand. You're kind of doing it with a channel. Which is fascinating to me. I I think it's interesting that you're talking about the reason why derail direct mail is having a renaissance is the digital fatigue and positioning,
5:54 Speaker 04 you know, digital advertising against direct mail. Why is it that the the the sort of channel and the the physical nature of direct mail has a better impact than a a traditional digital ad?
6:08 Speaker 05 Yeah, interesting. Well, and and I will say, you know, for clarification, we encourage our customers to use direct mail as a part of an omni-channel communication strategy. Really, at the heart of everything we do is is the end customer, right? And so we want to deliver the right piece of content at the right time to the right person. And so digital is certainly a part of that for those brands. That said, you know, I think for so long, a lot of these businesses have been built on these digital channels. And when I, you know, I'm going to super date myself, but in in 2000
6:50 Speaker 05 Eight or nine, I stepped into my first marketing role as a VP of Marketing at a startup company and Marketo was the platform that had just come out for email orchestration. And I remember just devouring every piece of content Marketo put out all around how to create conversions and build lifecycle journeys in email because it was like the whole new world had opened up to me, you know, but you fast forward, we're, you know, what is it like 18 years later and now people are getting way more email than they can
7:34 Speaker 05 handle and it wears on folks and it's tiring and then also just the open rates and response rates go down. And so I think now that folks have mechanisms to kind of measure some of this stuff for direct mail and speak about it, they're like, oh, well, this, you know, like, we're just literally looking at the numbers, you know, like, I think good conversion metrics for email is like, if you're, if you're got to click through, it was like one to 3% conversions, whereas direct mail, if you have just a list is 4% and then if you have a curated like house list, it's 9%, right? And so I think in a world where
8:16 Speaker 05 people are, everything is moving digital, I mean, we're doing this interview on Zoom, to be able to get something that's personalized and physical that you can touch is meaningful. And I think part of our larger mission is just to create real world connections, right? To use what is really the most durable channel. I mean, direct mail has been around before, before email, before SMS, before ads, all of these things and marry it with the digital so that you can have the ROI, but then you can also have the tactile, you know, real experience.
8:57 Speaker 04 So you've got higher conversion rates with the channel and you're basically fighting against the saturation of digital. And it's funny because it used to be, oh, well, I get all this junk mail at home, so I stopped paying attention to it. So people stopped sending it. So everybody started piling in with the digital ads and now it's like, wait. The mailboxes are empty. Everybody run to the mailbox. And hey, here we are again. There's, there's another component here where the old way of delivering digital mail, right? We're not exactly folding up a letter, putting a wax stamp on it, delivering it by hand anymore. It's not just relying at the mailman to send the right piece of mail to everybody.
9:40 Speaker 04 You could be very tactical and specific. Lob has an API approach to direct mail. Walk me through what that is.
9:49 Speaker 05 Yeah, so we offer a suite of APIs that allow brands to integrate their CRM, CDP, you know, marketing automation platform, really wherever they house data about, about their prospects or customers and integrate that with Lob. In addition to that, we have, we offer an address verification API, which verifies that you're actually mailing to the right address. It's, it's where a resident lives. We have a real time API that checks based on all of the mail that we're sending across the US. If this is a valid address and as well, the USPS has a, has a database.
10:30 Speaker 05 Ours just is real time and USPS updates theirs on a less regular cadence. So all of that allows us to generate, you know, a mail piece, but for us, we think about it more like a webpage. Everything we generate is via HTML. And so you can infinitely personalize what you're doing. The only constraints are the address block, obviously, and then whether you're using a postcard, a letter, the size, right? And, and we use merge variables in order to allow people to customize and personalize these mail pieces. And then because you're subscribed via API, the actual sending of the mail piece can be triggered based on an event,
11:14 Speaker 05 like somebody abandons a cart on your website or something like that. On the backend, what happens is, you know, you shared earlier, we have a national network of printers and logistics providers across the US, which allows us to print on demand. We give these people enough volume where they're ready to accept on-demand orders for us as opposed to most mail campaigns, you need to plan, you know, weeks in advance. So they accept the orders on demand and we're able to intelligently route them based on the geography of the recipient in order to cut down the lead time. And then additionally, you know, we'll go into great detail here. We're also able now to optimize the, um, the
11:59 Speaker 05 price of the, the mail piece for our customers by essentially taking some of that logistics away from the USPS. And that way, you know, when we're delivering it, you get lower postage rates.
12:13 Speaker 04 So, uh, I mentioned it's been about, it's actually been almost exactly a decade. Uh, I was working at rinse.com. It's a local dry cleaning and delivery startup. Uh, and so we were launching new zip codes, one at a time. The zip codes are area codes. I think it was area, zip codes. It was zip codes. Um, and in San Francisco, we would pick off sort of one region at a time and we would just batch and blast. Hey, we're going to send direct mail to everybody in this zip code saying our service is now available. And it was, uh, you know, that was, we didn't have to target all that. Well, we just had to hit everybody.
12:50 Speaker 05 Yeah.
12:51 Speaker 04 But then we started to realize the power of lob was when somebody stopped using our service that had already used it before. We could send them a $20 off their next laundry order to try to get them to restart. So if you've been lapsed for 60 days, there's a trigger in our CRM. Now we print a piece of mail with your name on it with a, a unique coupon code. But the problem was it took a week or two to get that piece of collateral out there. You're saying now essentially that is happening relatively real time.
13:23 Speaker 05 Yeah, I mean, we can have, you know, the API call happens and then instantaneously, you get a proof rendered, so you're not sending any proof back and forth. And then we can have it in queue, you know, at a printer within minutes. We have different speed SLAs depending on how fast you need something printed and you want it in the mailbox. You know, but we average, and again, these things always change based on the USPS's delivery speed. But about, you know, five days from API call to mailbox and, you know, we can be as quick as three days.
13:59 Speaker 04 So within a week, you're able to deliver a piece of physical collateral that's customized towards the end user. Talk to me a little bit about the cost. You mentioned that you're at the behest of USPS's delivery timing, but also they set some costs, which is one of the big hurdles for direct mail.
14:19 Speaker 05 Yeah, so the USPS, you know, they're in charge of the postage rates, right? And so one of the big changes in Lob really over the last two years has been, we've gone from an extreme focus on these digitally native type experiences. Like, hey, you can do your omni-channel communication through Lob. You can have trigger events on Lob. We have a QR code offering that allows you to personalize your QR code with a personalized URL and a personalized landing page. Seen all sorts of results there, right? And so all these are very cool offerings for marketers to get more targeted and boost their ROI.
15:05 Speaker 05 But in the last two years, we've gotten really focused on our logistics and fulfillment network. We have a product that we call Postal IQ, which is simply how we think about batching and routing the mail for efficiency.
15:20 Speaker 05 And so one of the things that we're encouraging CMOs and marketers to think about is, hey, think about just the operations of your channel, not only the more performance marketing aspects of it. Because if you, if you are using Lob and you tell us, hey, what matters at all costs is speed, then, you know, next day, we'll have it out, right? If you say like, hey, it's important for this campaign to get out by the end of month, and we have a few weeks. Well, that allows us actually to collate a bunch of volume, use our own logistics network. And the largest part of a mail piece is actually not the print,
16:04 Speaker 05 right? It's the postage. So we use our own logistics network in order to get economies of scale, drive down the postage, and then pass that cost back on to you. And so really, instead of, you know, like a programmatic direct mail solution, you know, we have elements of that. We're really an orchestration engine for direct mail.
16:28 Speaker 04 What I'm hearing from you is if you need the speed, you can get something there, you know, you said three to five days. But if you're optimizing for ROI and, and you can be a little bit more patient, you can essentially wait for demand to build up. And when you send more volume, your costs go down. It sounds like there's also a routing thing where you've got the national network where I'm in the suburbs of San Francisco. If I want to mail something to someone in New York, it might be a little bit more expensive. But if I'm using a service like Lob and the print is actually coming out of New Jersey, that's going to be less expensive because that's where your vendors are. When you talk about routing,
17:08 Speaker 05 Yeah.
17:09 Speaker 04 is it where the mail is created and sent from? Or is it something different?
17:14 Speaker 05 It's actually a little bit of multiple things, but the USPS does give postage discounts for getting things to these national distribution centers. And additionally, there's proposed legislation for the USPS for them to actually charge based on zones, meaning how close are you to the end recipient? And then, and then give other discounts or favorability based on that. That's something that, you know, may come in, in 2026, may come in 2027, but it's something they're actively, they've put it up for vote.
17:55 Speaker 05 In that world, this, the calculus of this really changes favorably for, for folks who want to use an approach like Lob. But even in the absence of the USPS moving to a zone-based model, what we've done is we've actually in-sourced, we don't own any printers, we don't own any print facilities. We have a, you know, partnership with dozens around the US. But we're digitally routing and co-mingling mail. Co-mingling is a process by which you put a bunch of different mail pieces together. You get them all to the same zip code, you saturate that zip code, you get a lower per unit cost on the postage. We're actually doing that digitally because we have this national network of, of printers.
18:38 Speaker 05 We're doing that digitally before we print it. We're creating saturation and then, and then we operate actually our own co-mingling network. So this is like the moving of mail, not just the printing of mail. So we've in-sourced a number of these things. We also do paper procurement and other things in-source. So the more of the supply chain we can control, the more we can optimize for the customers. And my mission is every time we get, you know, another percent of optimization, we pass that back on to the customer.
19:10 Speaker 04 All right. So you're not just hoarding forever stamps. You're actually a little bit more logical and, and combining multiple pieces of mail, getting to the right places, optimizing for cost. Let's talk about the other side, which is attribution. How are you solving the attribution puzzle for marketers?
19:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, and this is, this is a huge thing. You know, I was on a call with a, a business that helps people get better prices on their utility bills by essentially operating as a marketplace. And this was a huge part of our discussion because in the, in the, in a previous life, they had direct mail. They were confident it impacted these customer acquisitions, but they had a tough time doing attribution, right? And so there's a number of things we're doing. One thing that we do is, and we encourage every piece of mail that we have to go out with some sort of QR code.
20:11 Speaker 05 You can also do, you know, like a unique offer code or that sort of thing. But what a QR code allows you to do is it gives you a personalized URL that enables you to customize the end webpage based on the experience that you want folks, that you want folks to have, you know? So to give you an idea, I'm trying to think of the customer name on this one, but
20:39 Speaker 05 Next Insurance. So Next Insurance, they are like a digital first insurance carrier. They're focused on small businesses.
20:48 Speaker 05 They, you know, they were triggering, they were triggering mail pieces based on events, but then they were also pre-populating things for the documents that needed to be completed in these personalized webpage, which led to folks renewing, right? And converting because these things were already pre-populated, right? And so, one, it was a personalized experience. It had that person's name. Obviously, you can do direct attribution when you, you know, are sending someone to checkout right there. But it allows for that type of personalization. So we encourage folks who are sending a mob to use a QR code with a personalized URL. Now that's it.
21:34 Speaker 05 Every time you have a QR code with a personalized URL does not mean that that that that person who converts as a little mail piece is going through that flow. And so what we encourage folks to do is to send a holdout campaign with direct mail, without direct mail, and then look at the delta on top of the direct attribution that they're doing.
21:55 Speaker 04 So generally, what do you see when you're doing the the holdout campaign? What's the type of ROI?
22:01 Speaker 05 Yeah, so um, let me, I have another kind of another customer example. This is a, and I know these are, I mean, I will disclaim, these are, you know, higher than usual.
22:17 Speaker 04 It's what's possible, not what is expected.
22:20 Speaker 05 But like Branch, so what Branch does is they're they're home and and auto insurers, and they make bundling your coverage easy. They use, they actually use Iterable as their marketing automation platform. So they've integrated Lob with Iterable. And similar to the example that I just gave, when they're when they're sending folks through a a campaign for renewals or cancellations, things like that, they found that when they personalize and they use a QR code, they've got 25 to 30% conversion rate with a compliance ready audit. So because they've done all the compliance rate, all the all the stuff
23:05 Speaker 05 ready for people to go through this compliance audit, they land on a personalized URL where all this is populated, 25% of folks actually convert, right? So that's like the, that's, that's the art of the possible. Now, you know, as as a benchmark, we see personalized URLs have about a 5% conversion rate, which, you know, compared to other channels is high.
23:30 Speaker 04 Yeah, you know, it's funny because I think of how much direct mail we get and I filter through the mail. And I get this three to five inch stack of paper that I put in the garbage and don't pay much attention to. And then I get things like bills, letters from grandma and grandpa for the kids. And occasionally there's a print magazine that I'm taking a look at. I don't necessarily respond to a bunch of the advertisements and maybe that's just personal selection. And you mentioned before that younger demographics are tending to lean towards and respond more to direct mail. Why, or maybe I'm just in the middle. I'm not grandma and grandpa who are only looking at advertising from the mailbox. I'm not
24:11 Speaker 04 the younger person who thinks that it's novel. Why are the younger generations embracing digital mail, even if they're digitally native?
24:19 Speaker 05 Well, let's actually, you had me, you had me on another thought. And so I will answer that question. I promise you that.
24:25 Speaker 04 Sure.
24:26 Speaker 05 But I had this experience, and this actually speaks to, to, you know, the younger demographic and how they operate. But I had, I had an experience with LabCorp, you know, had some lab work done at LabCorp. I'm not sure if you're familiar. It's like Quest Diagnostic or something like that.
24:42 Speaker 04 Sure.
24:43 Speaker 05 And they're really good at collections. But anyway, so they sent me a physical mailer. I saw it was a bill. I have my stack. My, I have the same thing. I sort in stack and we get a bunch of, we moved into a new home two years ago. And so we still get catalogs, you know, from Restoration Hardware and all. And as soon as I see them, like, all right, let's throw them away before I get.
25:03 Speaker 04 The Restoration Hardware one drives me nuts. It's so big.
25:07 Speaker 05 It's huge.
25:07 Speaker 04 And I'm like, how much are you spending? I've already decorated my house. Please. We need a QR code for, don't send me this.
25:14 Speaker 05 Yeah. And there, but you know, it's obviously the ROI is there. And so they, they invest. But, you know, I quickly get those out so that we're not buying some crazy piece of furniture. But I have a stack of things that interest me, whether it be an offer like for HelloFresh or something like that, or, or another meal service, and then my bills. Well, I got that. I understood I needed to respond to it. There is a QR code on the, the thing. I just didn't do it. And then Quest Diagnostics gave
25:45 Speaker 05 Me a text message or no, sorry, LabCorp. I use LabCorp. LabCorp gave me a text message. I go back to the mail piece. I look at, I'm like, okay, how much it costs. I click on the link in the text message. I completed right there with my mail piece, you know, in front of me. And so for me, that's, it's an operational use case, not a, not a, um, a, a, a marketing use case. But it's a good example of, um, of how you use an omni-channel communication to, um, to, to take action. So let's talk about Gen Z millennials.
26:22 Speaker 04 Sure.
26:24 Speaker 05 So we surveyed, I think it was 2,000, uh, uh, customers, right? So we also, we, we surveyed over 250 businesses. We do a state of direct mail report with a, a group called Mintel. They do a lot of research and, and reporting. Eighty-five percent of Gen Z said that they read or respond to mail and 67% say that they take action as a result of mail. Fifty-eight percent of these same, the same demographic said that they feel overwhelmed by these digital brand messages. And 53% say that direct mail feels more special or valuable. And so with this-
27:05 Speaker 04 Let me, let me jump in here. I, I don't want to bury the lead and I think that's the most important thing. Fifty-three percent of Gen Z and millennials, let's call that the younger generations, are feeling like getting direct mail is special. Like that's, that's the headline.
27:20 Speaker 05 Yeah. And, and, and as a result, you know, we're seeing a resurgence even to that, uh, to that demographic, right? And so, you know, we have companies on Lob who do a lot of customer acquisition for Medicare and Medicaid. And mail is a proven channel that works really well there. But we also see a lot of folks that are doing direct-to-consumer e-commerce brands, these meal services that I referenced, all targeting, you know, that Gen Z and millennial group because of that, uh, because they, they, they feel as though, hey, this is, this is a more special communication tailored towards me.
28:00 Speaker 04 All right, last question for you about direct mail specifically. I would be remiss if I didn't talk about how AI is impacting every marketing channel. Give me a little bit of a blurb on what's happening with AI and what's its impact on the channel.
28:16 Speaker 05 Yeah, so we, again, for us, we're an end-to-end orchestration layer. So we, you know, we take mail from like just inception and creation all the way through fulfillment. And AI is now touching every piece of that journey. So we partner with a company, customer.io. They allow people to use AI to generate different marketing copy. You know, you can use prompts in order, and people want to know, how do I A/B test? Or what do I A/B test? How do I multivariate test, right? So we'll partner with them to test creative. We don't have this live, but we've been exploring, hey, let's use AI to, for those businesses
29:00 Speaker 05 that maybe don't have access to a creative agency. Let's use AI to generate these images. Now, I think different marketers have different opinions. Some people think that, hey, these images still look too polished. You can tell they're AI images. But it's getting really, really close. And so even in the, in the, in the image creation portion, we're using AI. But for us, really, it's on the backend where the most powerful AI is happening. I'll give you a couple, one concrete example and then, and then one application we're using across our network. But we have a large online retailer, household name. For them, speed to mailbox is really important.
29:43 Speaker 05 We fortunately have optimized the network where we can achieve really fast speeds, even when you're using standard-class mail. The way that it works is first-class mail, you're guaranteed a speed, right? And so you pay a premium for that first-class mail. For this, uh, for this online retailer, what we've done is we've, uh, we've got an algorithm running that analyzes all of their past mail and the delivery patterns for the USPS in the different regions that it's hitting and gives them a recommendation that says, hey, you could send this standard class and still, still get it there at the same time as if
30:23 Speaker 05 you had sent it first class. And so whenever that, uh, response come back as, you know, it's the same speed, we actually just automatically via API trigger a standard class mail piece as opposed to a first class mail piece. You know, so we're saving several cents on every mailer that they send out where they do this. The other thing that we're doing is we're, we're, um, using AI to look at delivery patterns, scrape for undeliverables. They, you know, in the USPS database, it may say that, hey, this is a valid address, but it's been undeliverable at Lob, you know, X number of times. And then we're having like, uh, like
31:05 Speaker 05 a recommendation to folks saying like, hey, we would not send this. We don't believe this is actually going to be a deliverable address. And that can save folks like literally millions of dollars a year on unnecessary mail sends. And then finally, we're using AI in our routing algorithm. And so like I said, we have all of this data and we have atomic level data because we keep it down to the mail piece. We don't just say, hey, it went on this pallet. We, we have a unique, uh, barcode for every single mail piece that goes through Lob. And so then we're able to look at send patterns to optimize and forecast, one, what we think our saturation will be and two, what our speed will be. And that allows folks to determine
31:49 Speaker 05 the cost structure they want to enter into. So is like, hey, given these send patterns, would you rather wait or would you rather speed up this mail piece? Right? Um, and so really from start to finish, we're using AI in the platform.
32:04 Speaker 04 My takeaway is that there's two levers and they move in opposite directions. It's speed and it's cost. And AI helps you dial in where the levers should be based on what you're optimizing for.
32:15 Speaker 05 You said it perfectly. The way that we have a couple of core pillars for our business when we operate with our team. One of them is agility and we aim to match speed and cost better than any other provider in the world. So that's what we do.
32:32 Speaker 04 All right. That wraps up this episode of the Martech Podcast. Thanks to Ryan Ferrier, the CEO of Lob for joining us. If you'd like to contact Ryan, you could find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes or on martechpod.com, or you can visit his company's website, which is lob, L-O-B, dot com. If you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of marketing and technology knowledge in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app or subscribe on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed next week. All right, that's it for today, but until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy.
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