Pod Insights Marketing School - Digital Marketing and Online Marketing Tips The Management Styles Of Mark Zuckerberg And Jensen Huang, Private CEO Conversations Around AI And Their People, The Real Use Case For AI (It's Not Replacing Jobs) About this episode In this episode #2975, Eric Siu and Neil Patel explore how tech giants are driving innovation and how AI is reshaping jobs, marketing, and workplace culture. They highlight the importance of adapting to constant change. TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES (00:00) Tech Giants and Innovation Trends (02:51) AI's Impact on Employment and Corporate Strategy (05:53) AI in Marketing and Performance Management (08:51) Management Styles and Company Culture (12:03) The Future of Work and AI Integration. To suggest a topic, go to https://www.marketingschool.io. For more content from Eric and Neil, check out Eric’s Leveling Up with Eric Siu YouTube channel and Neil’s Neil Patel YouTube channel. Connect with Us: Single Grain << Eric's ad agency NP Digital << Neil’s ad agency X @neilpatel, @ericosiu Instagram @neilpatel, @ericosiu Drop Us a Review If You Enjoyed the Episode!
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0:36 Speaker 01 By the way, when you look at, when you look at Google, when you look at Microsoft right now, when you look at Apple, Nvidia, I would say Nvidia is innovating. I think Google's still doing well, right? Google has its new glasses coming out. I think Meta is doing a good job with their glasses as well. I think the one that's not innovating as much, that will still continue to print cash for a while, is probably Apple. I feel like Apple on the innovation curve is kind of going down while the other ones are going up, right? When it comes to this AI stuff, are you pulling up the stock?
1:01 Speaker 02 Dude, no, check this out. I actually texted someone on this, alright?
1:07 Speaker 02 Here's Apple's revenue in 2022. It's 394.33 billion. So 394. What do you think their revenue is in 2024?
1:21 Speaker 01 Higher?
1:22 Speaker 02 391. They've been pretty much flat for 22, 23, and 24. All three years have pretty much been flat years.
1:29 Speaker 01 Now, look at Nvidia.
1:31 Speaker 02 I agree, but before I look at Nvidia, what do you think has happened to Apple's stock in the last three years?
1:37 Speaker 01 Grown.
1:38 Speaker 02 By how much?
1:41 Speaker 01 50?
1:42 Speaker 02 2022, I'm just picking a middle point like around June, 140-ish. Right now, 211, so call it 210, right?
1:51 Speaker 01 Yeah, so 50.
1:54 Speaker 01 That's 50%.
1:54 Speaker 02 Yeah, 50%.
1:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:57 Speaker 02 Like, 50% with flat revenue. And profit hasn't drastically increased or anything like that.
2:02 Speaker 01 And plus, they lost that lawsuit to Epic.
2:05 Speaker 02 Yes, but they're trying to still fight them and but going back to you wanted me to look up Nvidia. By the way, that was the silliest thing I ever did. You know, I believed Nvidia wouldn't keep going up and I thought it was the right time.
2:16 Speaker 01 I could have totally just leave it there for five more years.
2:18 Speaker 02 I was just really dumb on that one. You don't call them all, you know, but you look at.
2:23 Speaker 01 Well, you trade. It's a little different.
2:26 Speaker 02 But you you look at Nvidia. Oh, my God, you know, it's skyrocketed. But what do you want to look at their numbers?
2:33 Speaker 01 No, just how much the revenue growth last three years. Yeah, the blue is revenue growth.
2:38 Speaker 02 Annual twenty twenty three twenty six billion.
2:43 Speaker 02 What do you think twenty twenty five is? Their their years end at different cycles.
2:48 Speaker 01 Annual?
2:49 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
2:51 Speaker 02 Twenty six, what do you think they're now?
2:52 Speaker 01 Twenty five?
2:54 Speaker 02 Uh, in twenty twenty, in twenty twenty three, they had twenty six billion in total.
2:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:58 Speaker 02 Twenty twenty five, what did they do for the whole year?
3:00 Speaker 01 I'm saying five X.
3:01 Speaker 02 Uh, yeah, hundred and thirty.
3:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:04 Speaker 02 So, yeah, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, that is spot on. They do more profit right now. If you just get net income, not EBITDA, because net income is true cash flow. They do the net income of seventy two billion, which is more than what they did in revenue in twenty twenty four. I'm talking about profit, drop it to the bottom line after paying interest payments and all that kind of stuff. Seventy two billion.
3:26 Speaker 01 You know what we should talk about? So, uh, so Microsoft just cut seven thousand people because AI is that damn good, right? And I saw someone on LinkedIn post yesterday, we should unionize. I'm like, like, what? Like, so anyway, that that aside, but I think what's worth bringing up is these private CEO conversations around AI and their people, right? So I kind of just mentioned earlier, I was on a call and then everyone's like, you know, one person's building AI technology. Let's just say in the fitness space, right? Um, one person took from another another idea where it's like, oh, they have an AI enforcer team where it's like, let's find AI efficiencies. But let's also bonus people on cutting other people, right? Which is, you know, it is what it is.
4:02 Speaker 02 Yeah.
4:02 Speaker 01 Um, and then the other ones are like, it's like, huh, you don't want to go with AI? Okay, gone, right? So six million dollars in payroll cut. That's annual payroll, right? Um, and so I think it's it's just, that's an example. I think it's worth us bringing up some some stories. Um, and we're not going to name names or anything, but I the the reality is that it's either you shape up or you ship out.
4:24 Speaker 02 Yes, but going back to the Microsoft example when they laid people off, they typically lay off bottom performers and people from divisions that aren't making money. AI is definitely going to impact roles in corporations. That's a given. But companies at the same time tend to use whatever excuse they can to cut. And one of the most common excuses that large corporations have used over the years is bad economy. When the economy gets bad, they're like, oh, things aren't going well, we need a cut. And if you look at a lot of the big tech companies during the last few economic downturns, whether you want to call them recessions or not, but just when people are feeling the pain, they're making more revenue and more profit and their balance sheets are massive and they're doing stock buybacks.
5:08 Speaker 02 It's what they say to be, you know, to use as an excuse for it to be acceptable for them to just cut.
5:16 Speaker 01 When we talk to people behind the scenes now, I'm kind of speaking for both of us right now. I don't even know how it is for you, but it is like, let's not necessarily add more headcount. We're not looking to decrease headcount, but let's not necessarily add headcount. That's kind of the where things are right now. Eventually, I think in the next one to two years or so, it's more so, okay, who's going to need to go? But that's where we sit right now. And so what, what kind of blows my mind right now? Because I'm talking to a lot of COO candidates or GM candidates right now. When I asked them, like, when I start the conversation, usually it's, it's how did you prepare for this conversation? I love that question, right? It just shows how much research in them. The second one is, so what are you doing with AI right now? Oh yeah, you know, not, not really much right now. I'm kind of waiting to see what happens. It's like, oh yeah, you're just done right there.
5:58 Speaker 01 But one of my favorite questions, by the way, is tell me about a time when you worked your hardest. Some people have answered me in the past 40 hours a week. And I'm not saying you need to work 80 hours a week, but like, when you tell me the hardest you've ever worked is 40 hours a week, done.
6:12 Speaker 02 Yeah.
6:13 Speaker 01 So, and then it's like, so how many hours was it? Like, some people are like 100, 120 hours. I'm like, oh, please don't, don't do that here. Like, I love that. But these questions tell so much. Anyway, I digress a little bit. Let's, let's bring it back to the, the conversations, the AI piece.
6:26 Speaker 02 Yeah, but before we go to that, there's one interview that I ended up doing, like call it a few months ago, where I was interviewing a product marketer. So someone whose job is to market a product, market new features. You know, in marketing, people only think about driving traffic, but when you have more features, how can you market them to existing customers to generate more revenue and adoption? And they were telling me how they're using AI to come up with sketches and ideas and campaigns. And I was like, oh, cool. For what? They're like, oh, for a friend's project and some side projects. And they're telling me all these examples I was doing. This is over Zoom. And I was like, oh, cool. Do you mind showing me some of the stuff? And I'm like, here, you can screen share.
7:08 Speaker 02 And they paused for a little bit. They couldn't end up sharing anything. They had, they couldn't come up with an excuse. I came up with the excuse and I'm like, oh, is it uh sensitive data and stuff that you can't just like, yeah, yeah, it's sensitive. And I'm like, yeah, that that doesn't work for the stuff that you were trying and testing on your own that had nothing to do with other companies. And definitely didn't hire them. But I love actually having having people show me examples when they're talking about AI and marketing. And if they can't show me examples, I don't want to hear them. I want to see them. Cause then I can judge how good your prompts really are and how good you are using.
7:45 Speaker 01 What Neil's actually talking about is once you start to peel the onion, one, two, by the third time, they're usually broken, right?
7:52 Speaker 02 Yes.
7:52 Speaker 01 So you're, you're basically, you're dressing them down, right? And just slowly. And you can tell when someone talks in very long-winded stories and whatever, I'm just like, can you just show me an example? And then it quickly falls apart. And that's when I end the interview. So now I have no qualms ending the interview very early. It's like, hey, man, I just want to be very honest. Like, I think you're a great person, but this is just not the right fit here. And that's it. And I'm sure you do the same thing, too.
8:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I'm, I'm, I'm, actually, I usually don't cut it short.
8:20 Speaker 01 You don't?
8:21 Speaker 02 Usually when I do interviews, other people are on there with me. And I know this is gonna sound bad and I probably shouldn't say. But I'll, I'll, uh, uh, I'll try to find a reason to turn off video.
8:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:39 Speaker 02 And I let, I let someone else take over the interview.
8:41 Speaker 01 Why didn't you say you gotta go?
8:43 Speaker 02 I could, but I don't want to hurt their feeling and I feel really bad.
8:46 Speaker 01 Wow. At that moment, you feel like hurting someone's feelings?
8:49 Speaker 02 Yes.
8:49 Speaker 01 What the hell? Of all places. That's the easiest place to leave.
8:54 Speaker 02 I know, but this is sometime, I don't want to say it like sometimes I'm caught in some instances. I'm very confrontational and other instances I'm not. It's just like, dude, when we talk to other entrepreneurs, going back to your question on what are we hearing behind the scenes? Most of the people that I'm talking to, we all believe in a similar concept that you said is like, we're not just hiring as much. We're hiring still really good, amazing A players when we can find them. But in general, we're not hiring as much and we're just focusing on how not only can we use technology, but how can we do more with what we have? And that has nothing to do with AI, just because things are bad right now. And then the second thing that we all know is when you have a decent amount of headcount,
9:39 Speaker 02 you naturally get attrition. So when people talk about how AI is going to change marketing and it can change, you know, headcount and all this kind of stuff. You don't necessarily need a fire. People naturally leave a company no matter how good you are. You don't replace them. And that's the example with Amazon. You look at Amazon and their fulfillment centers during COVID, they boomed and then things started slowing down because the COVID rush was over.
10:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:03 Speaker 02 So like, oh, is Amazon going to lay off a lot of people? Well, in their service centers, they look at how long someone lasted in general for a job. They're like, oh, we don't really need to do anything by this time. All these people are going to leave. We're good. And then they look at how much they would have had to pay in severance and then they do a math calculation of what one's cheaper.
10:21 Speaker 01 Dude, speaking of AI, okay, you're gonna like this. Do you have a, do you have a robotic cleaner at your home?
10:26 Speaker 02 Like no, I haven't found that any that are good yet.
10:28 Speaker 01 No, no, no, no, no, no. See, see, I bought this when I was on a plane. So some, some guy tweeted this, right? And then Wired reviewed it and it's like the best robotic cleaner because it maps out your entire home. And so I, I went to the website, Apple Pay was there. I instantly just clicked Apple Pay, $1,200 robot over here.
10:45 Speaker 02 Is it really good?
10:46 Speaker 01 It's arriving in like a week or two, but like it'll tackle crumbs. It'll know not to like suck away like a, like a dog or something. It knows to avoid like maybe poop, for example, but you can see it knows exactly what to do and it maps everything out. It's called Matic.
11:00 Speaker 02 It knows to not get the toys?
11:02 Speaker 01 Yeah, it knows not to get the toys. It struggles with Legos, though.
11:05 Speaker 02 It can do spills too?
11:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
11:07 Speaker 02 Same thing or you have to switch up the?
11:08 Speaker 01 I don't even have it yet. It's coming like, like just.
11:11 Speaker 02 You gotta let me know if it's legit.
11:12 Speaker 01 I'll let you know. This is the first time I've ever gotten something because I've never trusted like a Roomba or anything else. Like my friends love their Roombas and all that, but this is the first time in my life. I'm like, saw the Wired interview, someone tweeted it, saw the Wired interview, instantly bought. And that's, this is why you never know how attribution works because I saw a tweet and I went to Wired. How, how do you know where I bought from?
11:29 Speaker 02 If you told me it was amazing right now, I would have just bought it if you said it doesn't.
11:33 Speaker 01 Exactly. So attribution, it's so hard to get down.
11:35 Speaker 02 It's so hard.
11:36 Speaker 01 Yeah. So.
11:37 Speaker 02 Cause I'm OCD. I have a cleaner seven days a week.
11:40 Speaker 01 That's what I'm saying. This would be perfect. You would buy like three of these.
11:43 Speaker 02 My house isn't that big, but my new one.
11:45 Speaker 01 Your new one, you're gonna buy three of them. Yeah. Anyway, it's called the Matic, guys. I'm not affiliated at all. But this is interesting because Wade Foster of Zapier, he said that the real use case for AI is not replacing jobs. It goes back to what I was saying earlier about new work. So he said this, he said, a common refrain is that AI will replace human jobs. I think this is a misnomer based on what we've seen at Zapier. While some AI use cases replace human tasks, far more AI use cases are doing things humans couldn't or wouldn't do because of cost, tediousness, or time constraints. So he's like, I'm bullish on innovation in a whole host of areas that would have been considered niche in the past. I'll give you one example here. So I think a week ago I told you, we have this thing where like Noah might say, okay, here are the top three things I got done yesterday. Here's the number one thing I got done.
12:30 Speaker 01 So we have a coach in there that's actively checking like how you're doing, right? And the thing is this, after a week of having this in there where it's like, oh Neil, your number one task isn't that high leverage. Like here's what you should do instead. And it actually looks at the last 30 days and it keeps coaching you. If you keep making the same mistake, it'll call you out in public. And then it'll do like a leaderboard at the end, like who's been consistent with it, who's scoring the highest and who needs like the most help. And so that becomes a performance question. Conversation, by the way, if you're not performing that well, a week later, everyone's stuff has gotten so much better. It's like all high leverage stuff because you want your people working on high leverage stuff. I'm like, I couldn't have done that before because you would have had someone like you or me needed to enforce and check.
13:10 Speaker 01 Like, nobody has time for that, but now the AI does. And then I use the the prompt I gave you earlier. I just kept refining the prompt. It's getting better and better.
13:18 Speaker 02 It's kind of similar to something that I do manually in marketing. So what I like doing is you take our marketing team. I asked them, what do you work on? Just in general, what do you work on? That helps us improve our goals of more leads, more revenue, more upsells, lower retention. And they create a list and they send it to me. Separately, I asked the manager to create a list and I say, you have all these people that work for you. What are they doing to help really improve our business? And then you can see where there's a disconnect. And then you start digging in where there is a disconnect because that usually tells you there's something wrong with either your manager or the people in those in that role. If you trust the manager, there's usually something wrong within those roles.
14:02 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:03 Speaker 02 Then you dig in with their with the people that there's a disconnect. The manager stuff should align with the people. When it doesn't, there's something wrong and you need to dig in because there's either you there need to fix what they're doing.
14:15 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:16 Speaker 02 Or train them better.
14:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:17 Speaker 02 Which I would put those at the same thing. Or if you can't just replace or eliminate, it's usually one of those three things.
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14:59 Speaker 01 Dude, this is awesome. Okay, get this. So you take your voice in 11 labs, you use something like Lindy or an And then what I'll do at the end of every week, let's say it calls me here, Eric. What are the things that you're doing that are leading to help with marketing? It calls both the manager and that person and it fills it out in a spreadsheet. And then you use whatever model to just detect if it's actually high leverage and if they're aligned or not. And then you get a report on Sunday or something like that.
15:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:23 Speaker 01 And then it becomes much more automated, right?
15:25 Speaker 02 That's true. Yeah.
15:26 Speaker 01 Yeah, I like it. This is a form of new work.
15:29 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:29 Speaker 01 You like you, you, you're probably doing this sporadically, but imagine now it's, it's on every single time. And I'm not saying you and I should be taskmasters or whatever.
15:37 Speaker 02 No.
15:38 Speaker 01 But at the end of the day, we care the most.
15:40 Speaker 02 Yes, and I'm not trying to do this because I want to fire people. I'm trying to do this to figure out if they're working.
15:44 Speaker 01 Manage or control them like nobody wants to do that.
15:46 Speaker 02 No, and I just want to make sure people are working on stuff that helps the business grow. If not, cool, I'll help you. You were hired for a reason. I'll help you shift your priorities so then that way you're more beneficial to the company. And if you're more beneficial to the company, you're likely to do better. You're likely to get more raises and promotions. It creates a win win and people want to be valuable.
16:06 Speaker 01 That's a great idea. I'm, I'm actually going to try that because Lindy has a phone call thing and you can use your voice. It, it stole Elon's voice and it was like that. One of the, the, the things is like, what are the five things you accomplished this week? So it just calls everyone. You can call the entire company doing that.
16:20 Speaker 02 Really?
16:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:21 Speaker 02 That's pretty cool. I don't know what kind of issues I'm going to have legally from that.
16:25 Speaker 01 You tried on your exec team first.
16:28 Speaker 02 My exec team, I don't even have to worry about.
16:29 Speaker 01 Exec is too good. Yeah, yeah, you wouldn't want to do it on them. By the way, speaking of exec team, I, I just want to call out. I listened to this Mark Zuckerberg interview that he did with the Stripe co-founder. The Johnny Iveson was pretty good too on design, but just the management styles of Mark Zuckerberg and Jensen Huang. So Jensen Huang is like, he doesn't believe in one on ones. He doesn't need to do one on ones. He thinks best practices are way too mediocrity. And then for Mark Zuckerberg, he doesn't believe in delegation, right? And he also doesn't really believe in one on ones because it, both these guys are executive teams are really good. But my point of saying this is that there's no right management style. But I remember I interviewed like a CEO candidate yesterday and then we had read a lot of the same management books. And he was spewing a lot of this stuff to me.
17:11 Speaker 01 I'm like, bro, like I've read every, the problem with, with me is I've read everything. That you've read, right? And what I've learned, being a little older now at thirty eight is like, there's no right or like best practices are usually a way to not like you. You end up being like everyone else. I'm like, you gotta learn what works for you. And what I've learned is these are the things that work for me. And so Jensen might criticize publicly, right? It's just, but that's what works for him. And Neil was actually ahead of the game because I would always tell him about these new books I was reading. And he's like, yeah, don't care. I'm just gonna do it my way, right? And so he's to Neil's credit, he's always done it his way. I've just learned a little later that I gotta do what works for me.
17:48 Speaker 02 But you've mentioned the Stripe founder. What does the Stripe founder do?
17:51 Speaker 01 So the Stripe founder was interviewing Mark Zuckerberg at their user conference. Yeah, yeah. And so Zuck's like, dude, I like, I'm gonna drop into whatever I want to drop into. And if I delegate it, that means someone else is like, no, like if everything rolls up to me as a founder, I'm gonna drop into whatever I want to drop into. And that's kind of how we are now.
18:09 Speaker 02 Yeah.
18:09 Speaker 01 Yeah, you've always been like that, but I'm that's this is how I am now. So.
18:12 Speaker 02 My favorite call with some of my executives and we have a great relationship. So they're transferring like, oh, how's your day? How's how's everything? And they're honest. I got to him like, oh, it's a shit day. You know, I'm dealing with this and doing with that. A lot of putting fires and fixing this. And so my executive teams, I was talking to someone, they're like, oh, how's your day? They're like, dude, just sorry for getting back to you late. It's just been a shit day, a lot of problems to deal with. Excuse my language for anyone listening. And I was like, do we lose any revenue? No, no, it's not that. It's just people not doing exactly what we want. The client wanted this, they did that, but they could have done A, B, or B, C, and D. That would have produced even better results. And it doesn't matter that the client didn't know and didn't request it.
18:55 Speaker 02 We should be going above and beyond for our customers to get a better experience. That is how you grow agency because he's like, you do better than what they expect. You will then get more referrals. And he's like, I'm gonna fix this if I have to have to fly. And I'm like, dude, you're having a baby soon. You know, I'm like, you don't need to fly. And I'm like, anything you need me to worry about? He's like, nope. He's like, move on. I was like, cool. Don't need to hear the rest. I know you'll take care of it. And typically, if they weren't having a baby, I wouldn't have asked the details. I would have been like, loss of any revenue. And he, they would have said yes or no. And if they said yes, I would have dug in. If they said, if they said yes, I would have said, what can we learn from it? And how do we repeat the avoid making this mistake again and better satisfy our customers? If they said no.
19:39 Speaker 02 I would just be like, cool, you'll deal with it. I'm on to the next thing.
19:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:44 Speaker 02 But the only reason I do that is I know they care about the company like me and they'll fix things.
19:50 Speaker 01 These are your executives.
19:52 Speaker 02 These are my executives and even a lot of the people on our team, they really do genuinely care about the customers.
19:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:57 Speaker 02 Because it's not about what are you getting paid for? It's more about what is a client expecting? How can you give them everything they're expecting and more? If you just give them what they're expecting, in my opinion, some people look at that as like, we hit the KPIs. We did amazing work.
20:13 Speaker 01 That's base level.
20:15 Speaker 02 Exactly. I look at that as average. I'm like, the client signed up for us to accomplish X. If you accomplish X to me, that is not you did amazing job. That means you did an average job. If you do also Y and Z, that's when you did an excellent job. We should strive for achieving X as a default, but also achieving Y at least, and maybe Z if we can pull it off.
20:37 Speaker 01 Yeah, because that's what makes us remarkable. It's not remarkable to be average and so you want to do remarkable work, right? And then, by the way, today's remarkable is tomorrow's average. So you have to keep pushing the pace.
20:47 Speaker 02 Yes.
20:47 Speaker 01 And again, this goes back to this is why your executive team needs to be strong or your founder has to keep pushing. That's how you keep things remarkable.
20:53 Speaker 02 Yes.
20:54 Speaker 01 Because then once you disappear, I've seen this a thousand times, the moment I try to disappear, oh my God, everything crumbles.
20:59 Speaker 02 No, it doesn't work out.
21:00 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, you, you, I don't think you've ever tried to disappear, like I don't, just knowing you for fourteen, fifteen years. You've always been involved. I don't think you've really disappeared.
21:09 Speaker 02 You know, the moments where, the moments where it hasn't worked out is like when you try to launch a courses and things like that. When you had somebody else doing it and you kind of expected it to just grow. Yeah, I, I also disappear in my own company, NP Digital. And to be very specific, we have so many different divisions and regions. I disappear on certain regions and divisions because.
21:31 Speaker 02 When some of them are just doing really well and growing super fast, even in bad times, and we have regions like that right now, I tend to just not meddle. And I tend to be like, look, you may be doing things differently than I would. But if you're growing 50 plus percent year over year on a decent baseline of numbers, and your churn for your division is like 5% or something extremely low. I'm like, eh, I don't want to meddle. You have leaders who are doing really well. And then I go and just go focus on something else that needs help. But then sometimes I had to go back to the ones that were doing really well. Cause maybe something changed in their government or their economy or in that division. Where I had to go in and work on improving or fixing something.
22:13 Speaker 01 I just look at this all as spinning plates, right? So you might have a lot of spinning plates and they start to become wobbly. So the moment they start to become wobbly, that's when you get involved.
22:20 Speaker 02 Yes.
22:21 Speaker 01 That's all it is. That's it for today. Please don't forget to rate, review, subscribe and we'll see you tomorrow.
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