The Best Marketers Are Becoming Part-Time Engineers

Growth Newsletter: https://levelingup.beehiiv.com/subscribe Need marketing help? Visit: https://www.singlegrain.com/ and https://npdigital.com/ Want to recruit great marketers? Find them here: https://marketingschool.io/hire A Procter & Gamble study shows every single role is now part marketing and part engineering, whatever the job title says. Eric maps it to the Coinbase pot-of-one idea and admits he builds more than he used to. From there: how Palantir landed and expanded on the cheap with forward-deployed engineers, why today's wow is tomorrow's average, and a long practical walkthrough of running ChatGPT Voice as a hands-free agent that controls the other agents on his machine. Key takeaways◾Every role is converging on part marketer, part builder, regardless of title◾Forward-deployed engineering is a sales motion, not an engineering one◾Voice is the interface that makes an agent stack usable while you do other things Chapters00:00 Everyone Becomes a Builder07:50 AI Changes Workflows12:47 Voice Agents at Work

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:45Speaker 00

  Every row slash row is they have some form of engineering that's happening over here. And they also have some form of marketing that's happening. It doesn't matter if you're a customer experience, design, engineering, whatever, you're doing some form of marketing. Now, obviously, a marketing person is going to spend 36% of their time doing marketing. An engineer is supposed to spend 53% of their time on engineering. But you can see these rising as the main things. And the thing is, Neil, like you and I, right, we're marketers naturally, but I do find myself building more stuff now. And sometimes, yes, we're going to think about finance, we're going to think about design as well. But I think this is a, it's like overall, this is one of the big findings in their study at Procter & Gamble. So this is, this is just people at Procter & Gamble, I guess.

• 1:26Speaker 00

  But I find that really interesting that the, we've talked about the Coinbase philosophy of the pot of one, where one person, like one marketer, is, can be, can be part designer, can be part engineer, and vice versa, right? So I think that's interesting, and this is going to continue to rise. I think a lot of this stuff is just going to merge together.

• 1:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. And one caveat here, just for everyone to know, Procter & Gamble is the fifth largest advertiser globally as well. So advertising and marketing is also in their DNA. They spend a lot more than most companies.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 2:00Speaker 01

  But I, but I agree, in general, people are going to start doing more things because of technology, and it's their ability to like code and stuff like that. Because if you also look at Procter & Gamble, people aren't inherently engineers, right? On the marketing side, yes, they're a big spender on marketing. But people in different departments generally are engineers.

• 2:22Speaker 00

  You know, I was, I was having lunch with my, my CTO today, and we were walking. And he's like, I actually think that, you know, we're going to need more people that have, you know, product builder type marketers that are deep in marketing but can build products versus like a standard engineer from the past that, you know, will build up like a UI and then like build up like a typical SaaS product, right? And so he's, and I'm like, I honestly think it's going to be a mix of the two. Like you, you might need some of that, you might need to kind of build out like a traditional UI. And then you're also going to need like marketers such as yourself, Neil, or myself, that has the taste and judgment. And we know how to at least build a V zero of something to get at 20, 30, 40, 50% there. Which then brings me to my next point. Elon actually tweeted this yesterday. So he said this, "Source code is on the verge of becoming like assembly."

• 3:06Speaker 00

  So CTO sent this to me yesterday, I'm like, I don't even know what that means, right? So I asked Twitter or X to summarize it. And Elon basically is saying that code, AI coding tools have advanced to the point where developers increasingly trust outputs without reviewing generated source code, mirroring the historical shift away from manual assembly programming after reliable compilers emerge. I have no idea what that means, right? So he's like, "The next evolution is AI system will produce optimized binary executables directly, eliminating traditional source code as an intermediary step in software development." There's too many big words here, okay? So I'm just like, dude, what does this mean practically? So practically, it means software development stops being about writing and editing lines of code

• 3:46Speaker 00

  and becomes about describing what you want and verifying that the resulting program actually does it. Okay, so here's the key thing here. So Neil, you and I, we don't review code, right? Now, people talk a lot about technical debt and things like that, right? They talk about the, the codebase being very bloated. And Nvidia is actually notorious for very, having a very bloated codebase. Whereas before, like if you came from like Silicon Graphics, like it was very perfectionist, right? Elon's saying like, it's probably going in that direction where you're not even going to be talking about having, you know, too much technical debt. Because the stuff is going to be so good, eventually it's going to clean itself up, and we're not even going to need to understand what's under the hood. That's all that he's saying, and I think it's already happening right now. But the crazy thing again is when I talked to you on the phone yesterday,

• 4:29Speaker 00

  we have people that we know where they don't let their engineers, they don't trust AI, it's not reliable, right? I think a lot of this stuff is just going to go in this direction, and humans are just going to say, "Hey, I want this," and you verify, "Hey, is this actually what I wanted? If it is, great, no complaints."

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. So let's dive into, speaking of what marketers are spending their time on, let's talk about how the best marketers are becoming part-time engineers. And I know you have this as a topic here. I'm curious to what that person said on X, but I agree with this. And the reason I agree with this is marketers now can create product and free products quicker than ever. If you look at how much people spend on advertising, in many cases, it's actually cheaper to release a product that a lot of people pay for your competitors, that costs money, and release it for free and gobble up a lot of visitors and audience that way than it does for just running ads on, you know, Google or Facebook from a profitability standpoint.

• 5:26Speaker 01

  I did a lot of that in the early days with UberSuggest, that's why we bought Ant to the public. And that model's worked out really well for me. And I know there's a lot of other companies that have released free products to create their flywheel.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Yep. So it is the, the table that I just showed you, Neil, but let's talk about what we're doing right now, okay? So I'll give you some examples. So whenever we build product right now, we, we say to the engineers, we say to people, "Hey, everything that you build, we need to have a marketable moment." So whether you're using a hyperframes video where it's like a 20 to 30 second video, and by the way, when they make one of those, and I put it up on my Twitter, 40,000 views, right? So, and there's a lot of these hyperframe videos that have like a million views plus, right? There's a lot of these launch videos. So we want a launch video on a specific feature or product. Or, by the way, for our skills dojo, which we've given away for free, if you want access to skills, evals, loops, that type of stuff, well, we're just going to, we're promoting other people's skills, we're promoting our own skills. That gets a lot of reach as well, and then we can market to those people.

• 6:21Speaker 00

  So that's for free, the Clickful API to MCP, that's for free as well. The API gateway, we're going to have a free version of that too. Carrot, we're trying to give a free version of that for free. So we're just trying to give a lot of these, these free things out. And that way people can use it, and then we can figure out, hey, who in here is actually a product qualified lead that fits our ideal client profile? And then we can reach out to them from a sales angle side, and then follow up with them, right? And then just continue to follow up with them with, with different angles over time. And that's, that's working for us right now. But the key thing that we made a change in is, hey, engineers, you're all marketers now. We're going to teach you how to make these marketable moments. And we literally have a channel on Slack where every single week, we're just talking about marketable moments. Because then that informs the salespeople, that also informs the paid media people on what we want to amplify.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  That also amplifies what we might want to do from an organic social standpoint too. So that's what we've done. I'm curious to know what you guys are doing right now.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  We focus on one simple thing when we try to release product from a marketing standpoint. In other words, the product helps just build a bigger audience. What are we giving away for free that people charge for and they feel value in that you can't really find for free right now? And if you can't answer that question, then what you're building probably won't get you the results that you're looking for from a marketing perspective. You can have the best email sequences, the best social posts, the best marketable moments when it comes to creating a video. But if the offer itself isn't valuable enough, it doesn't work. And then you just waste it all this time building whatever you're trying to build.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  In conclusion?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  In conclusion, make sure whatever you're building as a marketer is something that people are used to paying for and they wouldn't expect for free. And the moment you give X, you give it away for free, they're shocked, they're ecstatic, they share it. That's what causes virality. That's what does really well when you're building and releasing products as marketers.

• 8:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, and keep in mind, by the way, you know, Seth Godin used to say this.

• 8:24Speaker 00

  Basically, today's wow is tomorrow's average. And that changes a lot faster now too, right? I think it's, not Neil, but Seth Godin had a book called Purple Cow. And Purple Cow is just a cow that stands out, right? You want to be that purple cow. And that purple cow is changing every single day, the target's moving very quickly. So you just have to be ready to, ready to adapt. By the way, Neil, I have a little topic here. So do you want to know how, how Palantir land and expands for cheap?

• 8:51Speaker 01

  No, but I'm curious.

• 8:52Speaker 00

  Well, this is early days Palantir, right? Obviously, they popularized the four deployed engineering model. So I was watching a talk with Joe Lonsdale, who co-founded Palantir. And he was talking to eight VC, I think it was like a, like a VC firm. And the main thing that they did in the beginning, I'm not, it was like, they just made sure that they got their tentacles in there in terms of the four deployed engineers working at these companies, right? And then doing some stuff for maybe, you know, not, not too expensive to start with. But what ends up happening is because they end up asking for more and more over time, the, the, the expansion revenue just goes up to, we're talking about seven figures. We're talking about multiple seven figures, we're talking about tens of millions of dollars a year. And what happens is you build so much goodwill when, when you build with these people where they just don't want to get rid of you. And Neil and I were talking on the phone, on the phone yesterday.

• 9:36Speaker 00

  The thing is this, and this is from, from Neil's share, and so maybe I'll let you share it. But when you do a damn good job and you're so integrated, it's hard to get rid of you, right? So Neil, you can, you can add a little more there from our conversation.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so then when you look at it from a perspective of Latin and expand, if you get in with the company and you help them out with one product or service item, and then you convince them to do two or three more. So if you help them with eventually multiple products and then you do it in multiple languages and territories, whether they like you or not, it's not easy for them to rip you out. And this is what they call in, at least in SaaS, switching costs or in business switching costs.

• 10:21Speaker 01

  A lot of times it's hard to rip out Microsoft or it's hard to rip out Salesforce or whoever it may be. So you just stick with the solutions that are cheaper to pay for than it is to rip them out and switch them to something else. Now, in that calculation, a lot of businesses also run the scenario of if we don't switch them out, what are we losing in growth or potential revenue or whatever it may be? But the moment you're just like, oh, the other software does everything that the current one we pay for is just have to cost on an annual basis, but to rip it out, it costs $2 million. And annually you only save, you know, 300 grand. You're probably not gonna rip it out and take the multimillion dollar hit.

• 11:07Speaker 00

  You know, what Neil is talking about here, when we think about a moat from an agency, there's a book called Seven Powers and the only moat, in my opinion, that a traditional agency has, at least for today, is switching costs, right? Because if you're talking about you have, uh, it takes a lot to get through recruitment. You're a global organization, you're working with them in different areas, you have multiple services in there. It's hard to rip you out. Now, if you're talking about multiple integrations you have and things that you've built, it's even harder to rip you out, right? So that's what you want to think about, switching costs. But then if you want to think about some of the other modes for our business, because Seven Powers, right? There's, there's modes. Someone, Gary Tan from Y Combinator, argue that speed is actually a moat and that that's arguable. But when you look at Coca-Cola, for example, what do they have? They have brand power, okay? When you look at Toyota, what do they have? They have process power.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  How do they create cars at such, such a scale? Like you can argue Tesla that even has that, right? Or we can argue that maybe they have a cornered resource, right? So if you have all the copper in the world, then that's a cornered resource. Now, ideally, if you can have three or four of these, then you have a really defensible business. But I, in my mind, right now, I think when you look at like an agency, like what can you do? Like network effects would be another, uh, another, uh, moat that you can have, right? Like a, like a meta, for example, has network effects and that, that's, that's not easy to defeat. And so the more modes you have, you think about a castle. In fact, Neil is actually in a castle right now. He's in a moat, right?

• 12:26Speaker 01

  I am really in a castle.

• 12:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's literally in a castle, dude, as he just ran away to take care of his kids. So, and by the way, look, you can see there's a, there's a female knight over there in the background, right? In fact, this looks like it might be World of Warcraft, looking at the, the, the lion over there. Anyway, I'm going to continue to carry this episode while, while Neil's gone. So, um, one thing I'll say is this, oh, look, Neil brought his backpack over here. Neil, by the way, are you in a World of Warcraft? Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson shows how modern brands grow by removing the friction in their marketing and customer experience that pushes customers away every single day, often without leaders even realizing it.

• 13:09Speaker 00

  Each episode delivers practical insights, real brand examples and conversations with marketing leaders, showing brands how to win with the new rules of growth, identity-driven marketing, cultural relevance and frictionless customer experiences. Listen to Frictionless Growth Marketing wherever you get your podcasts. Real quick, if you want to acquire customers faster and more efficiently this year with the latest strategies and tactics, then check out singlegrain.com. That is my ad agency, again, www dot singlegrain dot com. Check it out and if it seems like a fit, we'll get in touch and help you with a free marketing plan.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  No, I'm in the Lego theme, I'm at the Lego hotel, Lego Castle Hotel and whatever the theme is, but I'm assuming it's a spidey.

• 13:51Speaker 00

  Oh, okay, he's in a Lego Castle Hotel. That's amazing. Okay, great. So I was just talking about the modes, but let me talk about one thing new, Neil. Have you used, uh, ChatGPT Voice yet? Have I sold that to you yet?

• 14:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you sold it to me. I still don't use it, but you sold it to me.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Dude, oh, well, you can't, you can't do it with your kids. Okay, guys, let me, let me explain how good this is, okay? So ChatGPT Voice, when I went to go see my dad over the weekend, I was like, you know what? I'm not gonna listen to a podcast because that is mental masturbation, right? I want to get things done. So I opened my ChatGPT Voice, which is, by the way, it's open on this computer over here, so it can control all the apps that I have. And it opened, it controls my other agents. And I was like, hey, you know what? I want you to know the top three highest leverage things that I'm working on right now. And I want you to tell me the next steps, okay? I want you to tell me the next steps and then I want you to execute on them. It started executing on all those things and it kept moving the ball forward. And that's the main thing, it kept moving the ball forward, right?

• 14:51Speaker 00

  And then I had a 40-minute commute to, uh, commute to my dad and then 40 minutes back. And I just kept doing it, I kept working through it, my phone got really warm. Um, and then what happened afterwards is I, um, on my way to see my dad the first time, I was actually worried. I was like, oh crap, I'm gonna be late, right? And I just said that they, I was like, hey, can you text my dad? Tell him I'm gonna be about five minutes late. And then it sent a text message and then it confirmed with me that he responded and he received it. And I'm like, that's good, let's continue to get back to work. Now, this is really big because you now have like a, like a Jarvis from Iron Man. You can tell it what to do and it knows your context. And not only that, I can control my other harnesses. So I had my Hermes desktop app open too. I was like, hey, I want you to continue work trees on, work trees on that one too. What else can you continue there?

• 15:36Speaker 00

  And so, because a lot of this stuff is about, sure, people talk about setting up loops and graph engineering where you don't have to prompt it, but in many cases, you still have to kind of check on the thing and approve it over time and make sure it's not just yoloing and doing whatever it wants. Maybe you can do it with code, but when it comes to marketing, when you're sending like sales emails or when you're sending like recruiting emails and things like that, you have to have some form of human in the loop there. And so that has been amazing and it's only gonna get better.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  But you do know for the, at least the texting example with your dad, you can just talk into your phone and it just does automatically anyways, right?

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I, I'm too late, but by the way, I'm still working with the thing. And so like, I can just, as I'm working, I'm like, by the way, send a text message, right? But by the way, sure, I can say, hey Siri, send, send a text message, whatever. But it, can I confirm that he received that he sent the reply to me? I can't do that, right? But with this thing, it's like, your dad actually got it.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Probably can. Have you seen the new Siri?

• 16:26Speaker 00

  No, I haven't. Tell me about it.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  I haven't used it either, but they say it's really good.

• 16:31Speaker 00

  You can't, you can't promote something where you haven't even seen it yet.

• 16:34Speaker 01

  No, but I read about it yesterday.

• 16:38Speaker 00

  You probably can, right? But they're so, they're so far behind, but I, I think this is gonna become the default way, Neil. Where, um, actually now Hermes came out with something where you can replace your Amazon Alexa with its voice. Cause Alexa is really stupid right now. Uh, it's gonna get smarter over time, but it's really stupid right now. Like it, it, it like screws up so many things, right? So imagine you wake up in the morning, Neil, instead of asking, how is the weather? How about, how is the weather and knock out my top three things right now? How, that's how the weather is.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, and by the way, with technology being so advanced, what I really hate about all the apps, whether it's AI or Siri or Alexa, if you ask how the weather is, it is, it can be wildly inaccurate. Like there's been so many cases where it rains throughout that day and the weather apps will show it's not raining at that exact moment. And I'm like, man, these guys can't get this basic thing right.

• 17:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, and it's 2026 and I, I'm sure they're gonna get it right. I think it's just they, they, like, but I, I just look at ChatGPT Voice, I think that this is gonna change how we work and we're just literally gonna be dictating, because here's the thing. And on that commute back and forth, had I spent 80 minutes to 100 minutes listening to a podcast, well, that 100 minutes now, I actually just got work done. And so that, that is a new expectation. You're not gonna be listening to podcasts as much because people are just gonna be working more, talking more to these things, so.

• 17:53Speaker 01

  You know, I've never done the podcast in the car. I've really, I've tried that.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  What do you do? You probably call people, right?

• 18:00Speaker 01

  Uh, so I've done kids podcasts where like it's trivia for kids. I forgot the lady that does it, but it's, it's, it's, she's all about trivia for kids. Um, I can't do the voice Siri thing because my, or voice anything, because my kids will chime in the moment I'm doing any voice thing in the car. Like they'll ask, uh, you know, Tesla, you know how you can ask questions? My kids love it. They'll ask animal facts or random stuff. Um, so I either do phone calls or I talk to my children. Because with phone calls, even if they speak, the person on the phone knows it's me when I'm talking. So I can still get a conversation going and I can be productive and get stuff done through that way.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  It is hard when it's not a phone call because most voice assistants, if I'm talking, will pick up their noise and they'll just get a kick just trying to throw me off and put in other stuff that they're not supposed to put in.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, I mean, you have to be engaged in a different way because you have, you have, uh, you have, uh, customers in the car or kids in the car, I should say. You have to entertain them. Um, by the way, Neil, so I mean, on this note, okay, ChatGPT Voice is great, right? But then I, I started, I installed a Jack Dorsey's Buzz, okay? So I want to show you how I'm working with Buzz right now and I think this is gonna change how work is. And to be frank, I've already been working like this inside of our Slack. I've been talking about having agents inside of Slack. But this is pretty cool, like anybody can install Buzz. I'm sharing the chat that we have over here. This is a, like a Slack for agents, okay? So I'm making this world of business game in my free time, okay? Where you, you can, basically Neil, because we have this thing now and this is open source,

• 19:38Speaker 00

  I can actually finish off that game now where if Neil completes a quest, I give him $20 in stable coins, right? Or if he does, if he implements a workflow and one other person uses it for the next four weeks, maybe I give him $500, right? And then you have a leaderboard for it. So I'm working on that right now with this thing and I made this plan. And then I have all these four agents in here, right? I was like, hey, guys, uh, I want you to review these plans and give me a different perspective. And they just start working there. Here's how it is right now, here's my perspective. And then they start talking to each other, Fable 5, Claude code here, here's what I think over here, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it just gets work done. So imagine I can use a ChatGPT Voice, plus I can use this and say, hey, guys, just do all these things over here, right? Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And then now we can do, we can do way more work.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  So to clarify for anyone listening right now, if you watch the video version on YouTube, you'll see what Eric's talking about because he's screen sharing and showing you. So make sure you check out the video version to get some context. But speaking of talking in the car, dude, I was driving to Lake Huron today and I was talking to my CFO. His name's Paul. My daughter, once she realizes Paul, because he knows he's a finance guy. He's like, hey, Paul, do you want to make some charts and diagrams and work on today's projections? And I'm just like cracking up.

• 20:50Speaker 00

  That's funny. What, how did he react?

• 20:53Speaker 01

  He cracks up, but he knows because she'll try to call like she knows the password for my phone. Both my kids do. And like they'll text too. They'd be like, what's this month's numbers? And like, I don't talk like that. So they kind of know because it'd be like, hey, what's the growth of this month or what's year over year? I'd be more specific.

• 21:08Speaker 00

  That's exactly how you talk. How are we doing with numbers?

• 21:11Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say this month's numbers. I would say, did we hit this month's numbers or targets? I wouldn't just say like, what's this month's numbers? It's too generic. Um, but either way, you know, they get a kick out of it. Yeah, like they know the type of people I'm talking to and their roles. And they'll say different things. So like with, uh, Paul, it'll be charts and diagrams and projections. With Mark, it'll be, do we, uh, do we hit the sales numbers? Cause I always ask him that and I ask him for country to country. My kids don't know all the countries, so they'll throw out random country names in Europe. And some are cities because they don't know the difference between a country and city for, uh, for all of them yet. They're young.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Um, and then like if it's, uh, Mike Camo, they'll be, they'll talk about like, hey dude, how much money are we going to make this month? Or what are we taking salary this month?

• 22:08Speaker 00

  That's funny. Um, by the way, you know, it's, um, actually I was sitting on that, that AI, um, operator's call. So again, you, you mainly, you have a lot of people that are working at these, these larger companies, right? You know, nine, nine figures plus. And, um, initially all the CEOs were like, how do we cut headcount? How do we cut headcount? How do we cut headcount? But all these other people are like, well, no, they had to, they had to kind of, you know, walk the CEOs away from that language. And it's more about how do we enhance what we're doing? Um, and I think that's really important, right? The messaging, the way you communicate something is really important too. And so I'm not saying Neil wants to cut headcount necessarily, but it just, it reminded me of, um, the like, how, how quickly we change opinion on this AI stuff. And one thing I want to bring up, I was listening to Gavin Baker talking today.

• 22:53Speaker 00

  So you know Gavin Baker, the investor, right Neil?

• 22:56Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  So he's, he's actually a popular investor, like you know Brad Gersner, right? He's kind of in that, um, in that circle, like they're like, they podcast the stuff and they're really good investors. So Gavin Baker was saying this, uh, and I didn't know the number was this small, like Neil. How many people in the world would you say are actually like, you know, like super AI pilled?

• 23:15Speaker 01

  I don't know. Fraction of a percent.

• 23:20Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it's like point zero zero seven percent. Okay. So according to what he said, so he says that it's likely that 500,000 people in the world are super AI pilled right now. If not, like maybe even 250,000. So if you divide that by seven billion, it's point zero zero seven percent, right? Um, it's, it's a very small number. And Neil and I were talking about this yesterday because even though I would, I would consider that I'm in some pretty AI pilled groups. I, I, I like to talk about this stuff. Neil's in a lot of these groups as well. Both Neil and I, my CTO, other people, and I was talking to someone else today. Um, he, he works at one of these companies. It's, we can say less than 10 people we know that are super AI pilled. So what does that mean exactly? If 250,000, 500,000 people are, um, are AI pilled.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  What that means is we're going to need way more compute, way more electricity, way more, a lot of things. And agencies are not dead. Okay. The harsh reality of AI right now is maybe we're just in the, the, the second inning, maybe. And, and that's it, right? But all this talk about, oh, um, agencies are going to be dead. No one needs ad managers anymore, this and that. Um, you can say we're biased, but I, I, I just, I, I don't think you can say that for a lot of these roles. And a lot of the roles that people don't want to do anymore, we're just, they're going to be re-skilled into other areas. So harsh reality, only 250 to 500K, that puts things into perspective.

• 24:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that means companies are going to have to pay others who are experts. This is why things like service-based businesses or agencies are not dead. And I see them lasting for a very long time because people pay other experts. And you could say, well, why don't they just hire those people internally? Well, I can ask you the same question. Why don't people hire amazing SEO people internally 10, 15 years ago? You know, some do, some pay external contractors, uh, like from like Upwork and places like that. Some hire agencies, um, some hire companies where they place headcount into their, uh, organizations temporarily, like Tata or whatever it may be. Uh, there's another one from India. What is it called? Infosys or something like that?

• 25:26Speaker 01

  It could be off on the name where they'll place like temporary employees within your organization. So there's a lot of options, but I believe if you're really good at what you do, people continually pay you. If you suck at what you do, people may temporarily pay you.

• 25:40Speaker 00

  Yes. And I also think that it's, it never, it's never going to change that hard talent is, is, is easy. It's, it's hard to come by, right? Because hard talent is always like a percentage of people and that, that's never going to change. Now, um, so anyway, I, I just wanted to call that piece out because there, there's a lot of, uh, you know, doom and gloom all the time. And sometimes I even call that stuff out. So, um, that is it for today. Please don't forget to rate, view, subscribe and, uh, yeah, we'll talk to you tomorrow.