Pod Insights Marketing School - Digital Marketing and Online Marketing Tips SEO Attribution Is COMPLETELY F**CKED, Dressing Nice Doesn't Make You More Money, How To Get A 50% Discount On Luxury Clothes About this episode In this episode #2978, Eric Siu and Neil Patel discuss the challenges of SEO attribution, the evolution of marketing, and the need to prioritize customer value over metrics. They also explore the role of personal branding, appearance, and the psychology of giving in business success. TIME-STAMPED SHOW NOTES (00:00) The Challenge of SEO Attribution (03:12) The Evolution of Marketing and Business (05:59) Navigating the New Digital Landscape (09:10) The Impact of Personal Branding and Appearance (11:58) The Psychology of Giving and Reciprocity To suggest a topic, go to https://www.marketingschool.io. For more content from Eric and Neil, check out Eric’s Leveling Up with Eric Siu YouTube channel and Neil’s Neil Patel YouTube channel. Connect with Us: Single Grain << Eric's ad agency NP Digital << Neil’s ad agency X @neilpatel, @ericosiu Instagram @neilpatel, @ericosiu Drop Us a Review If You Enjoyed the Episode!
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0:35 Speaker 00 Our mutual friend Gaetano posted this yesterday, and basically, the headline here is SEO attribution is completely effed, right? Because all you're getting now, like you're getting way more impressions now, but you're not getting the clicks. And so, what should you do about attribution, right? Let me tell you one thing. No, no, give me the cookies real quick.
0:54 Speaker 00 Okay, so anyway, the cookies over here, guys, I'm not getting paid to say this. Everything's sourdough, right? These are healthier cookies, right? Like, they have all these healthy ingredients. I bought this off of, I can't even attribute to who tweeted this, but I bought six bags instantly. And then Neil just ordered six bags over here. I ordered six bags when I landed in Miami for my event a couple of weeks ago, as I just got the bags. And these are, I'm like, healthier cookies? Sounds amazing. That robot vacuum that I was telling you about that scans your whole place, that's about to arrive, right? I bought that for $1,200, but someone tweeted it, and then I read a Wired article, and I bought it. You cannot attribute that. I bought a Starlink Mini the last week. I sent you the link to it. Why did I send it to you? Because there's a discount. So Elon retweeted a discount for 50% off. I'm like, done, discount.
1:38 Speaker 01 But you gotta pay a monthly fee.
1:39 Speaker 00 I know. I'm not gonna pay the monthly fee. I can cancel. I can come and go for the 50 bucks a month, or 100 bucks a month, or whatever it is. It's not a contract.
1:46 Speaker 01 Or do you have Wi-Fi or cell service on your iPad?
1:49 Speaker 00 No.
1:50 Speaker 01 I'm too cheap.
1:51 Speaker 00 Oh, so I do that?
1:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm too cheap. I always do it because if I'm doing like a webinar or something, we have like 5,000 people and I get disconnected, I have a backup.
2:01 Speaker 00 How fast is it?
2:02 Speaker 01 It's really fast.
2:03 Speaker 00 Like, did you run it on fast.com?
2:05 Speaker 01 Here, if I actually disconnect from wifi right now.
2:09 Speaker 00 While you do that, I think the point of what I'm saying is that, you know, the quote, remember in the 1800s, one guy, a really rich dude was like, you know, um, half my marketing works. I just don't know which half, right?
2:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
2:19 Speaker 00 And that's, that's okay. It's, it's, by the way, guys, this is called marketing school, but marketing is a subset of business. Business means doing a good job for your customers and marketing is, that supports that. It's not marketing first, then business. Go ahead.
2:33 Speaker 01 It's fast. So the download, it goes from 18 to 40. So it's somewhere in that range.
2:38 Speaker 00 Not fast enough.
2:40 Speaker 01 But it's fast enough for like a webinar or anything that you need to end up doing on it. I can stream Netflix, no problem.
2:45 Speaker 00 High quality?
2:46 Speaker 01 Uh huh.
2:46 Speaker 00 Really? Wow. Well, still.
2:48 Speaker 01 This is the download speed here, but we're in a steel building right now. The moment I go outside, the reception.
2:53 Speaker 00 But my point is, you can't attribute this stuff. Like you just bought it the way I bought it. It's like you just, you just, and I'm not saying don't think about attribution, you should, but I think the problem is 10, 15 years ago, especially you and I, like, working in tech, I think we over-index on trying to attribute every little thing and that over-obsession actually ends up costing you. You over-optimize. And I know for a fact, because you and I open Google Analytics every day, it was unhealthy obsession.
3:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, but dude, going back to the cookies and attribution there, I, Eric was like, oh, this is the company. You just go to their website. I Google everything sourdough and I could not find their website. And he's like, dude, just use the QR code on the back. And their website was like, everything sourdough code.com. It wasn't even in the top 10 when I Googled it. I'm like, this is terrible. But I was able to scan it and then buy it, but I agree with you. Attribution is getting tougher and tougher. And I think that's going to be the way it's going to continue moving forward. You have a vacuum that cleans your whole house. You're going to test it out soon. Let me know if it works.
3:54 Speaker 00 You're for sure going to buy it.
3:56 Speaker 01 But I saw on Instagram, little mini goat carts that work inside your house.
4:00 Speaker 00 Goat carts?
4:01 Speaker 01 Uh huh. And they're called like, uh, like kid cleaner card or something like that. I'm getting the name wrong, but I know it has cleaner in there. And it has a mop attachment that you put in the front and it puts like a Swiffer pad at the bottom. So when my kids, I got two of them, one for each. So when they zoom around, it goes five miles. I have wooden floors. It straight up sweeps up everything on the floors.
4:25 Speaker 00 Did you buy it?
4:25 Speaker 01 I've had it for a long time. I saw Instagram video of it. It was like 200 something bucks each. Bought two of them. My kids use it probably for 20 to 30 minutes a day. They clean up the house, sweep up like all the dust and everything without me doing anything.
4:39 Speaker 00 That's great. See, that could be attributed though. So we're not seeing guys.
4:41 Speaker 01 No, but how is it attributed? No one knows. Cause I saw Instagram.
4:44 Speaker 00 Was that Instagram shops or an ad?
4:46 Speaker 01 No, it was just an Instagram video of someone showing.
4:49 Speaker 00 Organic posts.
4:50 Speaker 01 And then I just Google it and I found it on Amazon. And then I go from there, but.
4:56 Speaker 00 There are three touchpoints. Look at that.
4:57 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:58 Speaker 00 Yeah.
4:58 Speaker 01 And when I Googled it, found it on Amazon and then from there I picked one. There was tons of different options, bought one of them.
5:04 Speaker 00 So our, our point here is guys, like, don't worry. Like, yes, you should, we're not saying, don't, don't abdicate tracking. You should keep tracking whatever you can, but also don't over index on tracking too much. And so when they say SU attribution is completely F'd, maybe, maybe not, but like, you know, do what you can, but then focus more on creating a good product and getting more word of mouth.
5:25 Speaker 01 Dude, but attribution, if you look at analytics, a lot of it's been not provided for ages.
5:30 Speaker 00 Over 10 years.
5:31 Speaker 01 Yeah. You use, I don't know how long, but it's been a long time. Use Google search console to get more data. It's hard to get exact conversion data for specific keywords. It's easier to get conversion data when you're actually bidding on the keyword and you can see it. And a lot of the studies we've done, we look at AdWords data to figure out which keywords mechanically convert the best.
5:53 Speaker 00 And by the way, like sometimes when I listen to some of these e-commerce podcasts, like, like they start using all these mixed media modeling, incrementality testing and all this shit, right? And I'm just like, that sounds all cool, but you can't try to over index over, and it starts to become this science, right? And but business is, there's, it's part science, but it's also part just delivering good value and being good to your customers and listening to your customers. So you gotta do both.
6:18 Speaker 01 Yes, but I get why large corporations do the media mixed modeling because when you're spending a hundred million, 200 million.
6:26 Speaker 00 Totally.
6:26 Speaker 01 You want some data.
6:27 Speaker 00 I'm talking about the e-commerce companies that are not even these large corporations that are over indexed. Like you're too small to over index on this stuff.
6:33 Speaker 01 I agree. And even the large corporations, they do all this stuff.
6:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:37 Speaker 01 Part of it is science, part of it is gut feeling and art and then it's just going from there.
6:42 Speaker 00 It's not or, it's and, right? I think too many people have gone for or and that's what it is. So that's why I say, look, website traffic is going down and like attribution might be going down as well. But you know, that is your opportunity and I think, uh, what is this? Rand Fishkin, I think he popularized like, we're in this world of zero click marketing now. But that is your opportunity to do well on YouTube, for example, like we're spending more time on optimizing on YouTube. That's your chance to do better on other channels, better on email, maybe owning your audience as well. And so there's a lot of opportunity and it's a, it's a, it's very much a blue ocean when it comes to doing hard work. It's a red ocean with the easy work, right? So do, do the harder stuff and you'll be in a blue ocean, which means less competition.
7:26 Speaker 01 Yes, and I look at things like SEO, whether it's search everywhere optimization or the traditional SEO. You gotta do this stuff to be top of mind and have your brand out there. If you don't, you're gonna end up losing revenue. And I look at digital marketing turning into television advertising. When you think about television advertising companies for so many years, even right now, I know there's companies like Tatarie that help track in when people have a internet based or connected TV to try to say, oh, they watched a commercial. Then they went to your website and converted. It's not exact, but it kind of works. But I look at this whole model here, uh, the traditional old school TV advertising where companies did it for a very long time
8:10 Speaker 01 and just got their brand out there. This is why companies like Amex or Nike or Mercedes.
8:15 Speaker 00 Coca-Cola.
8:16 Speaker 01 Or Coca-Cola have done so well. Their brand is just out there because of all the years of just pushing brand related marketing.
8:23 Speaker 00 Yeah, dude, we can come back to Google on YouTube in a second, but I just got this one. So Palmer Lucky was doing, you know Palmer Lucky, the Andro guy?
8:30 Speaker 01 Uh huh, who's also did Oculus.
8:33 Speaker 00 Yeah, so he sold Oculus to Meta. And so he, so I have this quote in here, um, I think he was doing an interview with Peter, Peter Diamandis. But let me just read this to you because, because you had a blog post on this a very long time ago. Okay, so you. You see Trump here, he's with one of the sheiks, right? I think this is from Saudi Arabia. So what is the sheik wearing?
8:53 Speaker 01 That's Doha.
8:54 Speaker 00 Doha, Doha, okay.
8:55 Speaker 01 Qatar.
8:56 Speaker 00 Okay, so what is he wearing?
8:58 Speaker 01 He's wearing sandals.
8:58 Speaker 00 Okay.
8:59 Speaker 01 And similar to what I'm wearing right now, but mine are black.
9:01 Speaker 00 Yeah, okay. And then Trump's dressed up really well, right? And Trump usually will wear like a suit. So the point is-
9:06 Speaker 01 For them, that is dressed up.
9:08 Speaker 00 Yeah, but-
9:09 Speaker 01 That's not casual, so they have different versions of that clothing.
9:13 Speaker 00 Yeah.
9:13 Speaker 01 It's more so because it gets 120 degrees, they tend to wear all white.
9:17 Speaker 00 This part's fine. I think this is funny to me. I like, and I'm sure the sandals are nice and they're really expensive, right? But Harsh Deep Rapal says, "If you have enough money, no one asks you if you have a business suit or shoes." And then Palmer Lucky's like, "This is definitely true of my experience." And then Palmer Lucky, he's got like this goatee, he's like always wearing shorts and stuff, right?
9:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:33 Speaker 00 But point is, you know, we've talked about this before, like, don't get me wrong. I think you and I, we like nice things, let me establish that, we like nice things. But for the most part, like, I'm usually wearing like yoga clothes. And then you're wearing like a yoga, like a-
9:47 Speaker 01 Viori, I wear Viori and Buck Mason, that's my daily outfit.
9:50 Speaker 00 So the thing here is, does dressing nice make you more money? I think it depends on the industry that you're in. So if you're doing real estate, or if you're like an investor, and that like, yes, you should probably wear like a suit all the time, right? But it doesn't, it just depends on the industry that you're in. But I think what we found is that dressing nice, at least for me, I'll speak for myself, doesn't typically make me more money. Cause I have, you know, I have the cool suits and all that type of stuff, but I hardly wear it because it's just not comfortable to me, so.
10:17 Speaker 01 No, do you actually have suits?
10:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, of course, I have like, I have like, usually you're supposed to have a couple go-tos, like, that's what I have.
10:25 Speaker 01 I bought one recently and it's my only suit.
10:28 Speaker 00 Really?
10:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
10:29 Speaker 00 But you had so many-
10:31 Speaker 01 I don't fit in them anymore.
10:32 Speaker 00 Oh, that's right.
10:33 Speaker 01 I've gained like 10 pounds.
10:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, but you used to have a lot. I remember your Vegas closet.
10:38 Speaker 01 Like 20 to 30 suits.
10:39 Speaker 00 That's a lot.
10:40 Speaker 01 And Texas and stuff like that.
10:41 Speaker 00 That's a lot.
10:42 Speaker 01 And then sport coats and jackets and all that stuff.
10:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, you gave me, I still have one of your sports coats, the Tom Ford one, right? But, so, the point here is, and by the way, you used to have a stylist and everything, and now you don't care as much anymore. Like, I think this stuff is still nice, but you don't care as much. Marketing hosted by Sonia Thompson is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonia Thompson shows how modern brands grow by removing the friction in their marketing and customer experience that pushes customers away every single day, often without leaders even realizing it. Each episode delivers practical insights, real brand examples, and conversations with marketing leaders, showing brands how to win with the new rules of growth, identity-driven marketing, cultural relevance, and frictionless customer experiences.
11:27 Speaker 00 Listen to Frictionless Growth Marketing wherever you get your podcasts.
11:32 Speaker 01 Dude, so I was, you know, we both shop at Brunello Cucinelli, right? I think that's probably my go-to store. I'm assuming that's yours as well.
11:42 Speaker 00 It's the best.
11:42 Speaker 01 Before, you know, I shopped a lot at Loro Piana. I think the majority of my wardrobe is from Loro Piana, Tom Ford, probably next. Brunello is the newest brand, but I've been shopping with them for a while now. And I would say those are probably the three main places, you know, where my clothes are from. So.
12:01 Speaker 00 You want a discount on it?
12:04 Speaker 00 One of our mutual friends, because he's so good with people, can get a, like a 40, 50% discount on Brunello.
12:10 Speaker 01 I don't really buy much anymore.
12:12 Speaker 00 Okay, see that? Just let us know in the future.
12:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, so, and this is what I was getting to. You know, I've been working with some of the same people for so many years. And some of them know that I end up spending money on clothes. Like, a lot of my Loro hoodies are like $4,000, $5,000 a pop, but they look like $20, you know, just casual hoodies.
12:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
12:34 Speaker 01 And I wear them not because of the brand. You can't see the logo, you know, unless I take it off and it's on the inside and it's just a tag. I wear them because it's soft and they're super comfortable. And I have a lot of the same ones in case, you know, kid spits up on it.
12:47 Speaker 00 Or one rips.
12:48 Speaker 01 Yeah, one rips. But going through that whole process. I've bought a lot of fancy clothes and you know, a lot of people I work with always tell me, you spend all this money on clothes, you don't really wear any of them. And I'm like, what do you mean? They're like, if you look at what you really wear, you wear, I tend to wear Viori, I don't know what they're called, like yoga pants, right? Well, let's call it a hundred bucks. And I have one for every day of the week. It's the same exact color, looks exactly the same. There's no difference. I just have duplicates of them. And I wear these Buckmation t-shirts, which I don't know how much they cost, 20, 30 bucks, 40, 50 max. And I have 20 of them in my closet or 30 or something like that. And I buy them like once or twice a year.
13:32 Speaker 01 But they're just like, you have all this nice stuff. This is all you wear and usually put a sweater on top. That's typically blue or gray in color and it's Laura Piana. And it's just a standard, normal looking sweater that I may have spent a thousand something to 4,000 bucks on. And I tend to wear the ones that are a thousand to 2,000 the most because other than the hoodies, the hoodies are expensive, but they're just the most comfortable. And they're just like, you start shopping at Brunello and Tomford, like you wear none of it. I'm like, oh yeah, this is a good point. And I started looking at how much I'm spending on shopping a year. I didn't go back long enough, but I was looking at my credit card statements. Call it on average 20 grand a month for clothes. I don't really wear any of it. So over the last few months, I just cut it all off.
14:18 Speaker 01 And my closet is still the same size. And when I look at what I actually wear, because I'm, you know, really paying attention now to what I pick. No joke, I wear like three or four sweaters, same white t-shirts, same pants, same shoe, and that's it. And I don't wear anything else in my closet, even though I have it. And I've gotten to the point, because I still speak a lot, I have these like gray dress pants from Laura Piana. They won't make me any more of them because they don't have the fabric anymore. And I've I have like 12 or 13, but you know, I was talking to my wife and I was like, do you think I can get away speaking in Yuri yoga pants? And she's like, don't go that far.
14:58 Speaker 00 Why not? And look at what Gary Vee wears, what he's
15:01 Speaker 01 Dude, that's what I was saying. I was like, but why can't I? I don't want to wear dress pants anymore. And, you know, because my business is global and we're in so many countries, in certain countries, like in Asia, like when I go to Hong Kong, everyone dresses up. So in certain countries, I would feel more uncomfortable wearing the yoga pants. But still, I'm like, why can't I? Who the crap cares?
15:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, well, your sweater is nice enough. So how are they gonna know, right? That that's my perspective, because usually you're wearing a nice sweater up top. And the other stuff is just yoga and your inside is still a Henley. And by the way, when you look at Gary, like, he's always wearing a hat, right? He's always wearing like a T-shirt or whatever. And so like, he is just, that's just who he is. And so my point is, we've gotten older now, where maybe that stuff might have mattered when in our twenties. I just don't care anymore.
15:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's true. I think I should just try speaking at conferences and wearing yoga pants.
15:55 Speaker 00 I thought you've been doing that already.
15:57 Speaker 01 No, I wear the Loro Piana dress pants.
15:59 Speaker 00 They look the same to me. I'm sorry. They look the same to me.
16:01 Speaker 01 No, but they're slacks. You can tell that they're slacks. They have a crease in the middle.
16:05 Speaker 00 How much I don't care. I just, I just, to me, you look the same. Because also, guys don't care too.
16:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:10 Speaker 00 Guys don't care. But but here's here's what I want to call it to like. So yes, Neil had a blog post a long time ago. This is like in our mid twenties or so on how he spent X amount of dollars and it made him this amount. But like, it wasn't like a huge amount at the end of the day, right?
16:25 Speaker 01 It helped. It was revenue, not profit that I made. So I'd probably still say it was a loss, because if you look at how much I spent on clothes, when you're generating revenue, there's expenses on that. But the big thing I would say, when I did that article and I did that experiment, times have changed. Back then, more people dressed up than they do now. I think we've gone to athleisure wear culture.
16:46 Speaker 00 It's because tech made it cool, right? Oh, yeah, a lot of tech people have like Mark Zuckerberg just wore whatever. But now Mark Zuckerberg is wearing nice things.
16:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, but if you look, that article is more than 10 years old.
16:56 Speaker 00 Yeah.
16:57 Speaker 01 Right? Athleisure wear wasn't as popular as it is now.
17:01 Speaker 00 It was starting to become, it was, it was on its way up.
17:04 Speaker 01 It was on its way up, but it was nowhere near where it is now. And especially in the corporate world, people were not wearing athleisure wear.
17:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
17:10 Speaker 01 Now they wear athleisure wear. Um, and then the other thing is, and I would still say this is relevant. When you're younger, I think it matters much more than when you're older. If you're an entrepreneur and you're 18 or 20 years old, people look at you differently than when you're 30 or 40, right?
17:28 Speaker 00 You've got to make a good first impression.
17:30 Speaker 01 Yes.
17:30 Speaker 00 In your 30s, 40s, you could just tell the way you carry yourself in a conversation. They can tell whether you've been there or not. So like it's, so does dressing nice, like, does it make you like, for us right now, it doesn't necessarily, I would, I wouldn't say it makes us more or less. I would say in our younger years, probably it does. Um, and you kind of have to prove yourself in your earlier twenties, right? Here's what I will say though. If you want to get 50% off from luxury brands like a Brunello or a Loro Piana. So one of our mutual friends does this. The way he does this is he basically becomes really good friends with whatever store associate. And he's tipping them all the time on the side, right? Thousand dollar gift here, $5,000 gift here, $4,000 gift here. And then whatever he goes to buy things, he buys a bunch at the same time.
18:11 Speaker 00 And that's how he gets 40, 50% off because a lot of these sales associates, they get a big discount. And so if there's one thing that he stands out with, it's always becoming really good friends. Like whenever we go to a hotel or whatever, he's always pre tipping a lot. And I actually stole this from him. So there's a, there's this health network thing that we've used and I actually helped his daughter, his, um, his friend's niece, actually with a rare condition. So I went through the YPO network and then, um, they have this health thing, right? So I reached out and then what I did on the side was I was like, I just copied what he did. So I just sent like a couple of thousand dollars on the side and then boom, she's taking care of us with everything. And they got that health condition that was super rare, taken care of. And then I told that mutual friend and he's like, oh my God, that's so genius. I was like, it's not genius at all. I just copied you. So this goes all the way around.
18:56 Speaker 00 It's just like, sometimes you just take care of someone else first. It's the, the rule that you learn from the, the book persuasion. If I give you something by default, you feel like you owe me, right? Which is why like, I never want you to buy me something and I never want, you never want me to buy you food or whatever. I just don't want to owe you like psychol- psychologically, that's just how it is.
19:14 Speaker 01 On a side note, I just looked up Dharmesh Shah HubSpot speech. I wanted, I was just curious to see what he
19:20 Speaker 00 He doesn't wear anything special.
19:21 Speaker 01 He just wears usually like
19:23 Speaker 00 A t-shirt.
19:23 Speaker 01 Agent AI t-shirt. Sometimes it's a collared shirt, like kind of buttoned up, but not like fully. I don't even know if he tucks it in.
19:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:31 Speaker 01 Uh, but you can see a t-shirt underneath.
19:32 Speaker 00 Yeah.
19:33 Speaker 01 And yes, he is like a hundred plus times more successful than I am. Congrats to him on owning OpenAI shares.
19:41 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
19:41 Speaker 01 He's gonna crush it on that one. Uh, but I was like, wait, I should just probably start wearing t-shirts and yoga pants for everything. I'm gonna just start trying that out instead of dressing up at all.
19:51 Speaker 00 Why don't you just have a shirt that says search everywhere optimization?
19:55 Speaker 01 No, I like my Buck Mason t-shirts.
19:57 Speaker 00 You know, um, Tim Solo from HREFs wears a lot of t-shirts. I like where he, like, I wear his t-shirts, by the way, the HREF shirts. They're nice.
20:04 Speaker 01 He dresses up, though.
20:05 Speaker 00 He, he does wear a blazer on top of it.
20:07 Speaker 01 Yes, and his shoes are Xenia second skin shoes with like a thousand something dollars issue.
20:12 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, he, he does well. He does well.
20:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, he does extremely well.
20:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. Um, all right. We will see you tomorrow. Please don't forget to rate, view, and subscribe.
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