Most Agencies Are Flat. Here's Why Neil's Is Still Growing

Growth Newsletter: https://levelingup.beehiiv.com/subscribe Need marketing help? Visit: https://www.singlegrain.com/ and https://npdigital.com/Want to recruit great marketers? Find them here: https://marketingschool.io/hire Wil Reynolds of Seer Interactive says agency owners are dishonest about how business is really going, and that most have been flat for three or four years. Eric reads the post and Neil agrees the downturn started around 2022 and is the longest he has seen, then explains why NP Digital kept growing anyway. Eric's take: the agencies dying are the ones still doing what they did five years ago, and tough markets are exactly when adaptable founders win the deals against the holding companies. The episode closes on the part of being a founder nobody talks about: watching the people you trained go on to build their own companies, why mindset separates the people who survive the downs, and why a business win feels the way it does. Key takeaways◾Be honest about how business is going; it keeps leads and opportunities flowing to you◾The agencies in trouble are still running the 2021 playbook; adapt or die◾You can't train mindset, and hard years are what build it Chapters00:00 Agency owners are lying about how business is going (Wil Reynolds)01:41 Neil: why NP Digital is still growing03:54 Eric: adapt or die, the invisible hammer07:06 Flat for 4 years? You're doing the same thing08:06 The burn-victim YouTuber: keep going10:34 If you're going through hell, keep going11:14 The best part of being a founder12:44 Mindset: people can't handle the downs13:48 The business high

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Finding customer information shouldn't mean digging through emails, call notes, and spreadsheets. HubSpot Starter Plan brings all of those details together, so it's easier to track what's happening with every deal and what to do next. It pulls information from calls and emails. Then it gets to work, logging and summarizing them. Right after your call ends, HubSpot pulls next steps from your call notes and drafts suggested follow-ups. And it stays up to date for you, so you can build demand, win more deals, and spend less time on repetitive work. Your records, insights, and next steps are ready for you to act on. And you don't have to miss a beat searching for any of it. Try the Starter Plan for $10 a month. Learn more at hubspot.com. So Wil Reynolds is saying that running a business is lonely because we are so often dishonest about how our businesses are doing. Agency owners, instead of asking, "How's business?",

• 0:45Speaker 00

  lead with things like, "Things are tough", and be honest about why. That's funny. Neil likes asking, "How's business?", a lot. This will give the person on the other side the ability to be real with you, too, instead of the fake game of "good", you, and they say "good", even though both of you are struggling to make payroll. I'm saying this because I have had a lot of tough conversations with the agency owners under $2 million, and they are looking for a place for their people, but they are oftentimes kind of over it. COVID took a lot out of us. Then AI is a tsunami that they can't swim through. That many can't swim through. Be brave enough to be honest. When people say, "Sheer must be killing it", I'm like, "My popularity on LinkedIn ain't correlated to my bank account, dog, dog." And we're fine, but definitely not killing it. Definitely not killing it.

• 1:30Speaker 00

  Been flat for three, four years. I'll take flat, given the environment. But just when one thing starts taking off, another takes a hit, okay? Now it's your turn. You won't want to post about it publicly, but if you do, you are allowing hundreds of other small business owners to not feel alone. I know it can be hard to post it publicly, but honestly, a lot of people need to see the reality of businesses right now, or business right now, not just the loudest voices on these internet streets. If you can't do that, promise me this. In private, when people ask you how your business is doing, be honest, and you'll be surprised after saying that to a few people, you'll feel a lot less alone. And when you stop telling people everything is great, which is not true, they are less incentivized to help you because you told them you're doing great. Being honest keeps more eyes and ears on the streets to send you leads and opportunities.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think the environment's been tough, and I think he nailed it. It's been roughly three to four years where it's been tough.

• 2:22Speaker 01

  I would say somewhere around 2022 is when things started to turn and become harder and harder. We've experienced it. We haven't seen a downturn like this for a long time. I've been in business for quite a while. I've never seen a downturn this long. I know there's many more people who have been in business longer than me, and they may have seen longer downturns. We're seeing it in a lot of different sectors, but not every sector. And when I look at marketing in specific, we used to grow at some cases 100% plus a year, literally 100% plus a year at scale, right? I'm not talking about $1 million in revenue or $10 million in revenue. I'm talking about more than that. And we were growing over 100% a year. We're still growing organically.

• 3:05Speaker 01

  We're also growing by M&A as well, which helps. But organically, we're growing. We're growing even faster because we do M&A, but growth definitely has slowed down. And if I had to give the reason on why we're growing in this market, I would say it comes down to one big reason. For us, it's been international expansion. If you're really tiny in a lot of countries like, I don't know, India or United Kingdom or Germany, whatever it may be, and I'm talking about us roughly, call it four years ago. When we're starting off in a lot of these countries, we're starting from a base of zero. In a good economy or bad economy,

• 3:46Speaker 01

  it's easier to grow when you're at zero, because growth can only go up. You can't go more down. So for us, by being global, we are able to add revenue. And we started expanding when the market was bad or the economy was bad, which created opportunities for us because a lot of people were pulling out or laying people off. So we were able to get, recruit really good people. That would have been harder for us to recruit during good times. And I would say that's probably the number one reason we've grown is, you know, just international expansion. That's helped on the organic side, combined with, you know, M&A.

• 4:28Speaker 00

  I have some thoughts here, and you'll probably disagree with them, maybe. And then, then we can talk about another topic, because I met up with, we should talk about something next. It's one of the best parts of being a founder, and it's not what really people think. And I think you're going to have some stories that you can share with this, too, which we'll get to in a second. But my take on this one, because here's the thing, Neil. Everything you just said, remember, Will said he's been flat for the last four or five years. You have not been flat, even organically. Just so everyone knows, too. Organic growth means that you're not growing through mergers and acquisitions. You're growing through on your own terms, as you know, the current business that you have, right? Inorganic means that, you know, you're buying other businesses and you're kind of stacking revenue on. That's, that's not a bad thing. That's a good thing, too, right? They're just different terms here.

• 5:09Speaker 00

  So just to be clear, Neil, the last four or five years, you have grown both organically and inorganically, correct? You haven't been flat at all?

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  Okay, great. So one thing I'll say is, you know, obviously, I've shared, you know, maybe in 2021 or so, when there was, there's a lot going on, it's a very hot environment. That's when I kind of stepped away from the business and things didn't go well, right? Things actually went downwards, right? For, I would say, the next two years or so, right, until I stepped back into the business. Now, I'm not going to say I'm amazing. I would just say that founders do have, Jason Cohen from WP Engine likes to say that the founders, Neil's a founder, I'm a founder, we have this invisible hammer where you can just make things happen and move very quickly. And so, you know, I would say that we, since I stepped back into the business, we have not been flat, right? We have, we have been growing. The thing that I have noticed, and Neil, I think you can maybe share some stories as well,

• 6:00Speaker 00

  is that the other agencies that seem to be, like last year, I think we had talked about an agency where you know, we're looking at just acquiring them for free, basically, right? Recently, you told me about another one where it would not have been like a big cash outlay, but it would have been a lot of work. So I think we're seeing more and more of that happen right now. Now, on the flip side of this, I'm also seeing this happen with larger agencies. It's like, from a recruiting standpoint, like, I'm like, why do all these executives want to lead these large agencies? Because after this, Neil, I'm going to go to lunch, and then at the mall with a guy that we're trying to recruit, right? And he's like, he understands a lot of things, not just from the agency standpoint, but from the AI standpoint, too. And so I would just say, forget the AI piece for a moment. As long as you're adaptable and as long as you move quickly,

• 6:46Speaker 00

  I don't think, like, sure, we can say it's been a tough environment, and I do think it is. It's been a tougher environment, for sure, but I believe that tough times create strong people. And I'm not trying to dismiss that, right? And I'm saying, yes, it is hard. Agencies are doing more poorly than before right now. But this is a time for you to be able to step up and stand out versus the rest, right? Because when, when Neil's up versus the holding companies, I believe that he wins deals because they're more creative, they're more adaptable, and they stand out. And people hire agencies to be creative, to be proactive, right? To be someone that you can lean on. And so most agencies don't do that. Remember a few weeks ago, Neil, I talked about how much I hate some of these, these, these, these agencies. They're just like, they put more work on your plate, and they expect you to just pay them. And so as long as you're someone that takes things off people's plate,

• 7:31Speaker 00

  then I think you're going to be okay as an agency, because I'll tell you, like, we haven't been flat since 2023. It's been strong organic growth.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  It's, but I'm assuming some things on your end you've declined. You're probably making up organic growth in other sectors.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Correct.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  But the original core business, I would say, maybe growing a little bit, maybe flat, maybe declining a little bit, but the growth isn't there from the original business. If you look at what Will Reynolds is talking about, a lot of people are still doing the same thing that they're doing four or five years ago. And I believe that's why a lot of these people are seeing decline in addition to the economy, right?

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Remember what Albert Einstein said?

• 8:14Speaker 01

  What? I have no idea what he said.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  Okay, so expecting change from doing the same thing over and over is a definition of insanity. I'm paraphrasing.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I, I believe you. And people, you know, are like, "Oh, it's not growing. Things are bad." And I agree, things are bad, but people need to adapt and try to figure out how to make them better during bad times. And we typically don't see

• 8:38Speaker 00

  Frictionless Growth Marketing, hosted by Sonya Thompson, is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Frictionless Growth Marketing, hosted by Sonya Thompson, shows how modern brands grow by removing the friction in their marketing and customer experience that pushes customers away every single day, often without leaders even realizing it. Each episode delivers practical insights, real brand examples, and conversations with marketing leaders, showing brands how to win with the new rules of growth, identity-driven marketing, cultural relevance, and frictionless customer experiences. Listen to Frictionless Growth Marketing wherever you get your podcasts. See that. All right, so I wanted to take a moment to tell you about my podcast co-host, Neil's Agency, called NP Digital.

• 9:20Speaker 00

  And they work with a whole host of global companies or a global organization. Also, Neil has SEO tools such as UberSuggest and Answer2Public. All you have to do is go to npdigital.com to learn more, and we'll see you on the other side. You know what I'll say? Neil, I saw a video, I don't know if you saw this video, but there's this guy on YouTube. So this video got 5.1 million views, and it somehow came across me, right? So his face is disfigured, right? Like, I think some fire happened, and like, he doesn't have, like, his fingers are gone, too. Did you see that video? Like, it stumbled across me, like, I felt so compelled to actually switch over my account and comment. And what do you think my comment was? My comment was like, "Dude, this is amazing. You should keep posting", right? Because the way he started the video was like, "I don't want to do this anymore. I'm done with life, blah, blah, blah", right?

• 10:04Speaker 00

  And he starts the video off like, "I'm tired of this. I don't want to do this anymore." And like, dude, it burns everywhere, like, very disfigured, like, you can barely see his eyes, right? And he's like, "Look, I don't even have my hand anymore", right? And he's like, "But you know what? F that. I'm going to keep going." And that is the same thing I would tell anybody that is struggling right now. It is these moments that actually shape you into a much stronger character, and you have good stories to tell. Because I remember when Neil, when I was going through these tough times in 2021, Neil was the first one to call me as a friend to say, "Hey, I think you should bankrupt it", right? And that was the logical thing to do. But I told Neil at the time, I was like, "Hey, dude, if I keep going and it turns out well in the long term, like, that's going to be a good story to tell, and I'm going to be much stronger", right? And I never told my dad this story until recently.

• 10:48Speaker 00

  He's like, "Why didn't you tell mom and dad, mom and me?" I'm like, "Why the hell would I tell you guys? Like, you guys are just stressed. It's better to tell you guys now." And he's like, "So are you stronger now? You're stronger now, huh?" I'm like, "Okay, I'm stronger", right? So I think this is a good moment. Like, if you're struggling right now, like, how do you double down? How do you cut costs? How do you become a lot more resilient? How do you become more adaptable? How do you go out and get business on your own, right? This is the chance for you to show how good you are as a founder, as a leader.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Dude, I'm with you.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  You know, and I think the, what we're seeing right now is

• 11:20Speaker 01

  There's no one way to skin a cat. You can do things different ways. You've just got to figure out what works for you. But most importantly, you need to try to be creative and try to actually solve your problems and be proactive. Instead, and I'm not saying this is what people are doing on LinkedIn. But you can vent and that's fine. And you can talk to people how things are hard. But at the same time.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  And I wouldn't say these people are complaining, just to be clear here. But continually talk about how things are bad doesn't solve the problem. You need to actually focus on figuring out a solution and spend the majority of your time there. And I'm not saying it's easy and sometimes you won't be able to. But that's where you need to be focusing most of your efforts on.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think the last thing I'll say about this is like, you know, if it is hard. What a blessing for you to be able to go through this crucible, right? You might, you might think F that right now, but when I look back on it, I look at all the struggles that Neil's gone through, all the struggles that I've gone through. It's shaped us into who we are today. And think about it, like the reason how companies go from, you know, zero to a hundred K to a million to 10 million to 100 million to a billion. You know, or even beyond that is because these people continue to sit through the mud and they continue to wade through the mud. And one of my favorite quotes is from Winston Churchill. If you're going through hell, keep going, right? And, uh, you know, we're not saying, you know, you're going through war or anything like that right now. There's much worse situations, but trust me, like this situation that you're in right now. It has been conquered before and we believe that you can conquer it as well.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  So we'll just leave it at that. Okay, so on a more positive note, Neil. So we, I want you to share some stories around this too, but I met with an ex employee yesterday. So he started an agency and, you know, it's doing like, you know, let's just call it, you know, 1 million, 1.5 million, something like that, right? And, um, you know, my whole thing is this is one of the best parts of being a founder. Um, and this is not what most people think. It's like, when you see people that have worked with you before and they've gone on and they're doing their own things. Like we have another guy that I think his agency is doing like maybe $4 million a year right now, and we still keep in touch. I love keeping in touch with these people and then, you know, they're, they're like, to see them blossom on their own and to see the work, the hard work. The, the challenge that they've had to go through to get there.

• 13:32Speaker 00

  It doesn't matter if they're, they're like an executive of another company right now. Like I still keep in touch with these people. But I think that's our way and your way of, um, and I'm saying you to the listener right now. It's your way of paying it forward, right? Cause the guy yesterday, like he gave me a lot of credit. He was like, you know, you did all these things, you set up the culture. Like I realized like everything that I may have disagreed with at the moment. Like I understand why you did it and it's a very lonely thing, right? To, to Wil Reynolds point. And so, but I'm like, dude, don't even give me the credit. It was you, look at you now, right? And so, I don't know, that, that's like one of those fuzzy things, but it's an, like, uh, these, these benefits people don't really talk about. So I'm curious to hear about some from your side.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I don't, dude, for, for me. I, most of the people I hang around with, including you and us, I think a lot of this, when I was younger, I thought it was kind of weak. But I, you know, I changed my tune on that over the years. I just think a lot of the people don't have the right mindset. And I think mindset has a lot to do with a lot of this stuff and succeeding in life and progressing and pushing forward. And getting through tough times and figuring things out. But for some reason, I don't know what it is. I think mindset is really challenging for a lot of people. People know how to deal with the ups, they don't know how to deal with the downs.

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Yep. And actually the guy I was with yesterday, he's like, dude, I, I've learned that, uh, business is actually the best personal growth machine. So Neil, Neil has his own way of learning. I have my own way of learning as well, but one thing we can agree upon when it comes to personal growth is business is the best. Because if you can't beat this level, you don't get to go to the next level. Just what it is.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and for someone else, it could be business, it could be something else, but.

• 15:15Speaker 00

  Something creative.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, something creative, like just challenge yourself and don't give up. And I, I think that is, um, really tough. I know people don't like showing kids Instagram, like they say social media is really bad. My daughter's in gymnastics and cheer. Um, so there's this video clip of this father, daughter duo. And I think they own a cheer company. And this kid is really young, maybe around my daughter's age, maybe a little bit younger. She does stuff that maybe people who are six, seven years older are doing when it comes to cheer. And you can see her crying and being fed up and the dad motivating her. And I show a lot of those clips from that specific family to my daughter.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  And I was just like, you see, not everything's easy. It doesn't matter if you think it's easy from the outside and that they're great. Look at the challenges they went through, look at how they keep pushing through. And having that mentality of just, don't expect everything to go your way. Don't expect things to go easy. You've just got to keep pushing because when you push and people have to experience this, when you actually solve the problem or get to where you want to be. Or even partially there, it feels really good. You get a real strong sense of accomplishment. And that feeling, you know, I don't do drugs and never really done drugs or anything like that, other than, you know, your Tylenols or whatever that you take when you have a headache.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  But, um, I think, and I don't know for certain, but I believe it's like a high of someone being on a drug, right? And I feel that way when I accomplish things or close some big business deals or hit new milestones. That hit that you get, I think is a really amazing feeling. And by no means, I'm not trying to, uh, tell people to go do drugs or anything like that, but I'm just trying to relate it. Like, you know how people say they get high? I don't know what high is like, but for me, when I accomplish something in business, it's a version of high, at least I believe it is.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  So when I was younger, I did try some different drugs and I will tell you what it feels like, Neil. So, so it, you're correct. Okay. A business win is like hitting a three pointer when you're playing basketball, right? Or like you hit a nice shot when you're playing tennis. It's also the same thing as like, you know, the high from a drug, right? They're all kind of the same thing at the end of the day. Um, and you want to continue to get that high over and over and over, right? And so you should chase the, the right highs, not the wrong highs is, is part of what, uh, I'm interpreting from this as well, Neil.

• 17:46Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 17:48Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that is it for today and we will see you tomorrow.