It's Over For Paid Media

AI media buying is accelerating fast after Meta’s reported $2B AI acquisition, but is paid media over? In this episode, Neil and Eric break down AI ad automation, media buyer layoffs, and why human creativity still wins. They explain why Facebook and Google optimize for their own revenue, why “button pushers” are at risk, and how marketers must evolve into AI-powered creative strategists. They also unpack Block layoffs, founder-led AI adoption, and building pay-for-performance revenue agents. Key Takeaways: • AI accelerates ads, but creativity drives profit • Button pushers will struggle to survive • Founders must lead AI transformation Chapters: (00:00) Meta AI acquisition impact (01:17) Facebook vs Google optimization (03:26) Are media buyers at risk? (05:54) Block layoffs and AI (09:21) Fixing red and yellow metrics (14:05) Hiring for bias to action (20:18) AI personality testing in hiring (22:02) Building AI revenue agents

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Finding customer information shouldn't mean digging through emails, call notes, and spreadsheets. HubSpot's starter plan brings all of those details together, so it's easier to track what's happening with every deal and what to do next. It pulls information from calls and emails. Then it gets to work, logging and summarizing them. Right after your call ends, HubSpot pulls next steps from your call notes and drafts suggested follow-ups. And it stays up to date for you, so you can build demand, win more deals, and spend less time on repetitive work. Your records, insights, and next steps are ready for you to act on. And you don't have to miss a beat searching for any of it. Try the starter plan for $10 a month. Learn more at hubspot.com. So I have this pulled up over here. So this guy, uh, his name's Zach. So the Manus AI situation is bigger than anyone realizes. This is what he's saying, not what Neil and I are saying. Millions of media buyers are about to get left behind or even fired.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Meta just paid over $2 billion for a Singapore-based AI company that launched in March 2025, making it one of their largest acquisitions ever, right behind WhatsApp. Um, and if you think this is just ChatGPT with extra features, you're completely missing what's actually happening. There are two types of people right now. So I'll just give the two types of people. People who think AI is a tool that you use when you need help, asking questions and copying answers into your work. And people who understand AI as an autonomous worker that executes entire workflows while they're literally asleep. Um, so let me, let me explain. So Manus now, so Manus is a general agent that Meta bought. Manus can now log into ad platforms, analyze campaign performance, make optimization changes, and handle customer support by monitoring inbox and responding, all without human intervention. Um, and I think this is where we can talk about our reaction.

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, no. So

• 1:32Speaker 01

  here's the big thing with Facebook and Google managing your ads. Okay. And this person, just to be very clear here, they're talking about Facebook managing your ads, and they're talking about in the Facebook portal because of that acquisition that they made.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Facebook and Google, they've had AI technology for a long time when it comes to ads and they've been trying to improve it. Mark Zuckerberg for a long time saying, why do agencies even need to exist? You have to keep in mind that what they optimize for is not always what you're optimizing for. They're optimizing, yes, for their, for you to get great results, but they're also optimizing to maximize their own company's revenue. And sometimes those two things fight each other because what's best for Facebook may not be best for you. Just like what's best for Google may not be best for you. Such as if you throw a ton of ads in Gmail, you'll see it doesn't convert that well and you can burn a lot of money really quickly.

• 2:35Speaker 01

  I'm not saying you can't make Gmail ads profitable. I'm just saying if you let the AI run wild, a lot of times you'll burn a ton of money in Gmail ads and other channels. That aren't the best versus someone typing a keyword into Google, clicking on a paid ad and just buying. So the way I look at it is you still need humans in the loop. For a long time, there have been tools that help automate and make media buying easier. You can call it, oh, we have AI now, so it's much more sophisticated. They've been using, you know, machine learning and a lot of cool tech to make it easier to buy ads and they have. But the real secret to doing really well from buying ads is not actually how you buy ads.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yes, I said before, you need some humans in the loop, but what it really comes down to is a creative component. Yes, AI can help you with some creative ideas, but the real secret is doing something unique and trying new stuff that no one's tried before. And it's a big hit or miss. It's a big experimentation game. AI can help you run the experiments faster, but once you find the creative pitch that converts really well, that's not been tried before in your space. You double down and you just go really hard at it, but you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find the right one that just works well.

• 3:57Speaker 00

  Yeah. So my reaction to this in regards to if paid media is over or is it over for paid media marketers? I think the paid media marketers who don't adapt, right? So just the button pushers alone are going to be in big trouble. That's my opinion. And I think if you're a paid media person, you're going to have to become a different. I think a lot of roles in marketing are converging now, right? And so Satya Nadella from Microsoft actually said that, look, if you're on the product side, you're actually kind of converging with designers, you're converging with, you know, engineers at the same time. So a lot of roles are going to start to converge. And so, you know, Taylor Holiday actually posted this to X, talked about, you know, head of growth, media buyer, creative strategist, retention strategist becomes profit engineer, right? Whatever that means.

• 4:39Speaker 00

  So my whole point is, I think if you evolve, like, yes, paid media is still important. Yes, you still need a human loop. You can't let these things fully automate. But again, you know, and we haven't reacted to this yet, but when you look at Block, cutting 40% of staff, that's a lot of people, right? You don't just cut 40% and there's probably some, you don't get it right too. With 40, when you cut 40%, there's probably some really amazing people that you probably shouldn't have cut, right? But I digress. My point is, I think, and Neil cares to get your thoughts. I think if you're just like, if we did five to 10 years ago, if you're just a button pusher, paid media, you're actually, you know, pretty valuable. A lot of agencies needed to hire you, right? I don't think that's going to be the case anymore because that actually means if you're just a button pusher today, you actually haven't evolved.

• 5:20Speaker 00

  I think if I was working in paid media completely today, fully immersed, I would try to learn as much as possible. Hey, how can I start to learn the AI creative piece? How can I learn to start to make creatives? And how can I learn to make creatives at scale? Because it's only going to get better over time. Or if I'm an SEO, I'm going to try to really learn the AEO side of things. Like, how do we learn Reddit as well? How do we learn YouTube as well? I can't just be a one-trick pony, right? So I think one-trick ponies are going to get shot. I think the ones that adapt, the ones, the roles that converge, those people are going to not only get paid more, but they're going to be in more demand.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And by the way, the media buyers that just pushed buttons and weren't doing anything amazing, I think a lot of them weren't doing well from a job perspective for many years now. I don't even think a lot of that's related to AI. I think for a while now, a lot of these roles, when people are just clicking a few buttons, they've been losing contracts at their agencies or they've been. Eventually getting replaced because people like you're not adding much value. Because technology has made a lot of this stuff easier for years. I don't think anything's really changing. It's just accelerating. It's the same stuff just getting accelerated because technology is getting better. And when companies are laying off a lot of people like Block laying off four thousand. And I spoke at their, uh, I have forty percent. I think it was four thousand though.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  I spoke at their internal marketing conference. I can't go into discuss what I spoke about because I signed a contract. But when you think about AI and Block. Am I gonna say that AI is not causing any jobs to replace? No. Am I gonna say that AI is a reason for four thousand jobs to be fully replaced? No. I bet you there was a ton of wastage in there. If you just look at X, okay? A company that Jack Dorsey created or Twitter. And Elon ended up buying it. He canned a lot of people and they've seen growth in usage with a much smaller team. This was pre all this AI stuff. A lot of these large corporations have been bloated for a long, long time and they need a cut and many of them need a cut even more.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yeah. So let me give you the numbers around this deal. So you like numbers, right? So Block was uh twenty four billion in revenue and twenty four percent gross profit growth, okay? Just cut four thousand people while raising twenty twenty six guidance to twelve point two billion in gross profit. Stock ripped twenty percent after hours. The market added roughly six billion market cap. So that's one point five million in enterprise value created per eliminated role. Now. Maybe that's not the right way to look at it, but I would say that um, you know, it's. There's a handful of things. I think one, I think the way Jack Dorsey handled it, if you look at his message was handled really well. Like you do twenty weeks of severance, plus for every, I think it's an extra week for every year of tenure. Um, plus like you get to keep your equipment. There's like insurance and all that. So he's, he's. And he's saying, look, the reality is like something has come and, and artificial intelligence. Sure, you can use that narrative.

• 8:07Speaker 00

  I think part of it is, is to AI, but I think the other part is you look at twenty twenty, twenty twenty one. I think people just over hired, right? And so I think part of that is still kind of undoing that.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Totally agree. I think the biggest issue is people over hired. Like, a lot of these companies don't need that many employees. And I look at some of these companies that are publicly traded in the SaaS space, they're barely growing. And it's just like, you haven't really released too many new features and product updates. Yet you have five hundred people working on product and engineering. And I'm like, uh, I would fire a lot of those people if you haven't really made any major product changes in the last twelve months. Like, why do you need five hundred people on a team? The, the five, forget AI, five hundred people are just really inefficient. There's too much bureaucracy. Get rid of a lot of them. You can probably get more done with like fifty people.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  Yep. And that, the bureaucracy is actually something we can talk about, Neil, because I've been just sitting in that office yesterday. I can just tell that, you know, people are really inundated by the bureaucracy. Um, and so you know what's interesting? Um, I, I kind of got called out because one of the people that was a VP at that company used to, used to work at my company, right? Um, and, you know, for example, Neil, let me just ask you. When you have your metrics pulled up, okay? When a metric is, you know, you, you look at traffic lights, red, yellow, green, red means like it's really bad. Yellow means it's kind of, you know, it's not doing well. Green means it's moving in the right direction. You're going to focus on the red and yellow things, right? So let me ask you, Neil, Neil Patel's way of looking at this. Uh, if something's red or yellow, when do you address it? Do you wait a week, two weeks, three weeks for you to ask for a remedy? Like, what is, what is your stance on it?

• 9:40Speaker 01

  Well, before I see the report, I hope they already told me what they're going to do to fix the reds and the yellows. So there's not really a waiting. It's more so my team, when there's problems, they don't come to me with the problems. They come to me with potential solutions. Some solutions I love, some solutions I don't like, some solutions are whatever. So then the solutions that I don't like will brainstorm and try to come up with better ones. The solutions that are whatever, again, will do a similar process there. And it's not always me with the best ideas. There's a lot of other people who have better ideas than me. It's just more so as a collective group. We try to be proactive about solving problems. I think just looking at things like red, yellow, green.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  And if someone doesn't want to come to solutions and they just want to complain about the reds and It's like, all right, this is just wasting everyone's time.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  And what if they're like, Neil, I've tried coming up with the solutions, but I kind of want to hear from you. What solutions you have in mind? So I've tried it a couple of times already. It's not working, Neil, um, you know, please, what are your ideas?

• 10:41Speaker 01

  So I would say, what were your solutions that you came up with? You must have came up with at least once, you could have at least typed it into chat GPT and ask them to help you come up with the solution. Even if it's a terrible one, I just want to hear what you were thinking. And if you don't have a actual solution, what direction were you thinking? I'm like, you know, um, you know, uh, what made you get stuck, right? And in all reality, I'm kind of being nice, but I would just want to straight up know, why didn't they come up with any solutions? And why didn't they even try to ask AI or a friend or a colleague? And I would just be pissed.

• 11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. So at this company, look, so yes, yes, totally agree with you. I, I think my, my flaw calling out in public is, uh, you know, we do the traffic lights, which I actually got from the great book, um, the great CEO within. The problem is, I think one of the things that's flawed with it, with that book is saying, hey, when something is red or yellow, you should wait two or three weeks, right? And so I followed that for a little bit, but.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Two or three weeks? That's what they tell you in that book?

• 11:38Speaker 00

  Which is actually two to four percent of the year, right? Which is crazy, right? So I was doing that before and then one of the guys called me out. He's like, yeah, when you did that, that was really stupid, right? I was like, yes, it was absolutely stupid. But I think the, the key thing for everyone listening to this is that if something's red or yellow, I think you've got to keep applying pressure or you're going to feel it, right? And hopefully like, yes, if you're going to your, your, your boss, for example, come with, come with once, come with actually three solutions, pick the best one, right? And then go back and forth to prove that you're proactive with it. But waiting it out and being, being okay with it and yet letting the scorecard be red or yellow, that is a nice way to, to stunt the growth of your company.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, the one thing I love about hiring is if you look for personality traits of people who are like, uh, obsessive, they pay attention to details, they stress out a lot and they worry about things. Those people usually don't wait for the red lights. When they see something that's yellow, they try to fix it right away or figure out a solution. They stress, keeps them up at night. Yes, you want them to have a work-life balance and all that kind of good stuff and not have issues with their family, but.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Those people naturally just perform well, from what I've seen, assuming you're hiring people with experience as well. And then with those people, you don't have to push them to solve the reds or the yellows in marketing or business. More so, you gotta force them to unplug a little bit and go spend time with their kids or their significant other.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  So Neil, you might not know the answer to this, so if you don't, I'll go ahead and fill in for you and I'll tell you what we do. But what do you guys do to kind of figure out if they have that, maybe obsessive is not the right word, but like, you know, they can't help.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, obsessive personality.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Okay, so what are you guys doing to filter for that during the hiring process? Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson shows how modern brands grow by removing the friction in their marketing and customer experience that pushes customers away every single day, often without leaders even realizing it. Each episode delivers practical insights, real brand examples, and conversations with marketing leaders, showing brands how to win with the new rules of growth, identity-driven marketing, cultural relevance, and frictionless customer experiences. Listen to Frictionless Growth Marketing wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  It's just interviewing. So when we're interviewing, we'll ask specific tasks, okay? So let's say if I'm interviewing for a product role and I give someone a design, all right? And I would be like, how would you make this flow better? I would look to see where they designed some elements. Did they match the style guide? Did they ask me for the style guide even if I didn't provide it? Because I'll tell them, here is, here's what we're looking for. Let me know if you need anything from me. So we'll start looking for people if they use the right color of orange or if they, you know, use our right fonts and all this kind of stuff.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  And if people don't pay attention to those little details and obsess about them, then we usually know that. They're not the right fit. And that's an easy example for product because it's more black and white. You know, with non-black and white roles, sometimes in management roles, you'd go ask them very specific details like, hey, you know, a client was upset. X, Y, and Z happened. You gave it to employee, didn't get resolved. What do you, what do you do? And I would have them break down not just scenarios like that, but I would have them give examples in the past of working with the team where things didn't go their way and what they did.

• 15:18Speaker 00

  Yep. So what Neil's talking about, and then we screened for this, it's looking for that bias to action, right? And then the very first question I actually ask, and this is part of it, it's not everything, but the very first question when they get to me during the interview is like, how did you prepare for this call, right? And I'll tell you what, the beat Claude guy, the AI guy, he's like, oh, I read your book. I was like, oh, you read my book? I was like, not many people do that, right? Like you read, you read my book to prepare for the interview? Like, that's cool, right? But that's, that's a bias to action right there. And, um, you know, not everyone has the same demeanor around it, but that goes back to our core values, right? So ours is bias to action. We want relentless learners, you know? We want people who make bold, long-term bets and reasonably resilient. But one thing I did find out, Neil, so you've seen the show Billions, right?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Okay, Wendy Rhodes. So do you want to describe what Wendy Rhodes did for a living?

• 16:02Speaker 01

  Sure. So Billions is a TV show about a henchman manager named Axe. And Wendy Rhodes, she was their in-house psychiatrist or shrink?

• 16:14Speaker 00

  Something like that.

• 16:15Speaker 01

  Something like that. And she would help people mentally get in the game so they can be a top performer. So let's say you have someone, and I'm going to give you guys a marketing example that's all relatable. You have someone who is doing affiliate marketing for you internally. They're figuring out how to arbitrage ads and make more money, you know, for other businesses and you're collecting affiliate revenue from it.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  Or they're figuring out how do you get you press on a lot of sites and you know adding in affiliate links and then convincing them like hey add in affiliate link you can make more money and push your products and adjust the text instead of just mentioning our name which in many cases doesn't do anything because there's very little context there. Uh and sometimes they're just off on their game and they have some personal issues that's slowing them down on work because it happens to a lot of us. Uh and Wendy Rhodes in this example, the shrinker psychiatrist, she would figure out what's blocking them, whether it's personal or work wise, help them resolve it so in that way they can go back to performing well.

• 17:16Speaker 00

  Yep. So that was a very good explanation. I didn't expect you to go into that much detail, especially with it being, you know, ten eighteen P M. Um for for Neil. So here's the thing. The reason why I just asked, um, why I'm talking about Wendy Rhodes right now is because I actually posted something to Twitter just saying how, um, you know, whatever you're using like an open claw where it has memory. Um, when you work with it over time, you actually can have it do a complete uh personality test diagnosis of you. Okay. So I had to do a diagnosis of everything. Um, but the Wendy, so there's someone kind of known as Wendy Rhodes, like she's like the Wendy Rhodes type on on Twitter. She responded and she's like, hey, all the personality tests you mentioned, like they're fine, right? But you should use this one. So you know, you should try this out too.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  It's called the M M P I. So whatever, you know, L L M you're using the most, just say, hey, you work with me a lot, score me on the M M P I. It's actually a five hundred seventy six question personality test. Um, and I asked it to to kind of call out patterns, right? And the reason I'm giving this to everyone is like, I think you should do this with whatever L L M you're using. So look for the M M P I. But what I'm going to test doing now, Neil, is whoever we're talking to during the call, I'm going to say, hey, pull up whatever you're using, chat G P T, whatever, ask it about your M M P I, whatever you're working with. Um, and then tell me what it says. And that's actually where it can show your neuroticism and all those things. Go ahead, Neil.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  The you're it's Minnesota multifaceted personality inventory or something like that?

• 18:35Speaker 00

  I I don't know. I don't even know what it's called.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  The administrative real. Uh, it says it's a licensed clinical test that's given and interpreted by a trained psychologist. It goes on and on, but pretty much it says I can't actually administer or score. Uh, and then it gives reasons.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  Okay. So check this out. Tell me if you. Disagree or agree with these, these things, right? These are the, the main outliers for me, Neil. And you tell me if you agree or disagree. Are you ready?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  Okay. So hypomania, so scorpion hypomania. This is on the scale of zero to 100. Mine's a 72, which is, it says significantly elevated. This is your defining scale. High energy, rapid ideation, um, parallel work streams, impatience with slow people, tendencies to start more than you finish. You run at a pace most people can't sustain. The eight to seven Enneagram map, um, directly maps directly here, not clinical mania. This is a trait level hypomaniac drive that builds companies. That's number one. Do you agree or disagree with that?

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Agree.

• 19:26Speaker 00

  Okay. Number two, um, is psychopathic DVH. Okay, I'm high on that. That's a 68, right? So it's elevated. This scale catches rule breakers, authority challengers, and people who reject conventional paths. You dropped out of the corporate track, built companies your way, run hiring through beat cloud challenges instead of HR playbooks. High PD and entrepreneurs, it's extremely common. Agree or disagree?

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 19:48Speaker 00

  Okay. So let me tell you where I'm going with this. So it spotted a pattern because it's, it's my cloud code, right? So I was like, okay. It's like your specific pattern. Look at your history. So 2014 to 2016, energy, survival, hustle. It works out for you. 2018 and 2020, you install a GM, enjoyed growth, like, you know, it kind of worked, right? Uh, 2021 to 2023, spread across multiple different projects, um, acquisitions, drift, revenue drops. 2024, 2020, starting in 2024, reengage, performance rises again. So it's like, notice the pattern. When external friction drops, uh, so bull market, high liquidity momentum, you expand aggressively. When reality constrains you, you focus. You don't naturally self-constrain and that's the core, right? And so my point of calling this out is like, it's pretty spot on.

• 20:31Speaker 00

  And so during the interview, Neil, I do think it's hard to just kind of call it out with someone. Like you're going to get different answers and like, you might, you might find some person more likeable than the other one. But if you're able to get this out, I think, and you're able to look at those traits, maybe you can dive in a little more. That's how I'm looking at maybe approaching this in the future with hiring. So this is more of an experiment, um, but I find it fascinating. And I was like, hey, give me a one liner on this, um, on how I am. So I can tell everyone that works with me, like how, how I work, right? So the one liner is I naturally over index on building the future and don't generate enough internal friction around margins and metrics. So without structured accountability, I can let operational discipline drift while chasing expansion. I was like, yeah, that's pretty good.

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had the same talk with you a few weeks ago. I said, you're spending a lot of time on AI, which is the future. And I'm like, the fundamentals is what's gonna grow. So you just need both.

• 21:21Speaker 00

  Well, Neil said, I think this is two weeks ago. Neil was like, this is this is post call and I'm happy to share this. Neil was like, I think this could be a distraction like Clubhouse.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. So anyway.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And we were talking about, what was it? Open Claw or something like that?

• 21:35Speaker 00

  I was talking about Open Claw, Claude Code. I will tell you, though, from that retreat last week, I'm not gonna name names, but the people who are using Claude Code are like, they're really innovating. The people who are on Chat GPT, like someone showed like custom GPTs and all that, right? The people that were already on Claude Code and Open Claw, they're like, kind of past that. And but the Chat GPT people were like desperately trying to catch up and like, oh crap, I'm really behind, right? And so I do think, my belief on this, and we probably disagree for now, is that I think the founders really need to be all in on this stuff. Otherwise, the company can't move as quickly as the company needs to move. So in my mind, I'm like, this is the fundamental because stuff is changing too quickly. So anyway.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, but to go back on that, I actually agree with you on which, whether it's AI or anything, if your leadership and the founders aren't on board, it's very hard to get anything changed from an organizational standpoint. You need the person at the top to buy in and push it, because if they don't buy in and push it, others will not adapt. And I think you end up losing the race. But at the same time, you just have to keep pushing on the fundamentals that are driving the business until you can figure out how to get growth from the new quote unquote vision.

• 22:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is actually interesting, Neil. I'll kind of give out the vision, the reason why I was leaving Arizona yesterday. And that was like, I woke up at three thirty AM, flew there, was in the office at nine AM with my my CTO. And then we flew back and by the by the time I flew back, it was four thirty PM, I was back in my home, right?

• 23:05Speaker 01

  Wait, let's go back a little bit. You went to Arizona for what? Because your office is in LA.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, so we went to Arizona because I'll just say, I'm not gonna name names right now, we'll keep it anonymous, right? But you would know. Went to Arizona because the we were basically creating an offer right now where

• 23:28Speaker 00

  We are basically going to be driving phone calls or leads for one of their businesses. They have a new SaaS product. Let's just call it that. Okay. And that has a lot of AI that's driven into it. And so basically, a lot of the scaffolding, my CQ and I want to do. So we had a lot of questions for their executives. We also had questions for their people, boots on the ground, to understand what the problems were. Right. So that's almost like doing customer development or customer discovery. And so what we're going to do here is we are going to, you know, whether it's sending, whether it's making phone calls or whether it is driving outbound emails, right? Or whether it's making an agent that fulfills the call, like the sale end to end. That's what we want to do. Right. And then that is actually the vision of the future, where we want to be able to build these solutions for, for customers, right?

• 24:13Speaker 00

  Called forward deployed marketer. And then we have the smart marketer managing and customizing it for the clients. Right. And so that is, that's why we had that conversation. When we started having those conversations, like, oh, man, like, they, they, they might have a lot of people, but they're just like, not enough people are AI enabled and they just can't do it. So that's, that's where we are with that right now.

• 24:34Speaker 01

  Your meeting in Arizona reminds me of Heathen's company, Tiny Lab.

• 24:38Speaker 00

  What does, what did Tiny Lab do?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  AI deployment company. So they go in seven days. They, they figure out whatever problems you have in seven days. They try to deploy as much AI as possible that solves a problem, literally within seven days.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're not doing that. So the model is a little, it's all pay for performance.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Oh, so it's all pay for performance. But it's similar in which you're fixing some of the problems. Because some of this that you're mentioning isn't all marketing related, right?

• 25:07Speaker 00

  It is, I would say it's more like, if we can call it enterprise revenue agents, right? If you want to call it that, right?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  It's more like business consulting, but we're using it through AI.

• 25:17Speaker 00

  We're, we're basically building revenue solutions to solve all their problems. So we're not really consulting much, like there's not going to be phone calls, like back and forth reports and all that.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  No, no, no, but like. So when people think of consulting, like if you, if you go back to Accenture, Accenture, when you pay them, it's not just they come with a strategy. They will go and build the product, solve the problem and help deploy it. You're pretty much going in there, you're doing the consulting part from figuring out the problem. And then you're coming up with a solution, you're building the solution and you're deploying it.

• 25:50Speaker 00

  Correct. So our vision, even last year, towards the end of last year, we had planned this out already. The three-year vision is tech-enabled services and this fits in really well with it. And the only way this is going to move forward, to your point earlier, is like the founders have to be involved. And so that's why we flew in last, like I hit up my CT Monday, I was like, we're going to Arizona on Thursday. And like, literally, we just got up and went. So that's where we are with it. I do think in the new world that we're moving into right now, that it does enable a lot of interesting models with pay for performance. Because pay for performance before, it's a lot harder, especially when you have a lot of hard costs with people and everything. But if you're able to build a lot of scaffolding with these agents and able to, you're able to make it work, you can actually repeat it for different verticals or different companies, right?

• 26:33Speaker 00

  So that's how we see it and we'll see where it goes, but at least we'll kind of, I'm giving you guys that, that model that you can work with. Yep. Guys, thank you for joining us and we will see you, we'll see you next time.