Is AI in a Bubble Right Now?

In this episode, Eric and Neil dive into the current state of the AI market, debating whether AI—and especially AI stocks—are in a bubble or represent lasting value. They analyze major players like Nvidia, explore the hype vs. substance in AI startups, and discuss how real revenue and fundamental adoption differentiate lasting winners. The conversation also covers shifting dynamics in SEO, the influence of Reddit on AI training data, and why proper attribution in marketing is harder than ever for brands and investors alike. TIMESTAMPS (00:00) Are AI stocks in a bubble? Nvidia, valuations, and market comparisons (07:30) Hype vs. lasting value: How to spot AI companies with real staying power (13:45) Venture investing, early-stage wins, and new challenges for angels (20:00) The Reddit effect: LLM training, SEO hacks, and content quality concerns (26:15) Attribution woes: Why tracking SEO ROI is harder than ever 𝗔𝗕𝗢𝗨𝗧 𝗧𝗛𝗘 𝗖𝗛𝗔𝗡𝗡𝗘𝗟 Welcome to Marketing School, one of the top business podcasts with over 61 million downloads. Each episode delivers actionable marketing tips and strategies from two entrepreneurs who truly practice what they preach. The show is hosted by Eric Siu, founder of Leveling Up and Single Grain, and Neil Patel, co-founder of Neil Patel Digital and recognized by Forbes as a Top 10 Marketer. LEARN MORE ABOUT THE HOSTS Eric Siu – Leveling Up: https://www.youtube.com/@LevelingUpOfficial Neil Patel: https://www.youtube.com/@neilpatel FREE RESOURCES Growth Newsletter: https://levelingup.beehiiv.com/subscribe Ubersuggest: https://www.ubersuggest.com/ Answer The Public: https://www.answerthepublic.com/

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Finding customer information shouldn't mean digging through emails, call notes, and spreadsheets. HubSpot Starter Plan brings all of those details together, so it's easier to track what's happening with every deal and what to do next. It pulls information from calls and emails. Then it gets to work, logging and summarizing them. Right after your call ends, HubSpot pulls next steps from your call notes and drafts suggested follow-ups. And it stays up to date for you, so you can build demand, win more deals, and spend less time on repetitive work. Your records, insights, and next steps are ready for you to act on. And you don't have to miss a beat searching for any of it. Try the Starter Plan for $10 a month. Learn more at hubspot.com. Do you believe that AI is in a bubble right now, more specifically AI stocks? So when you look at like Nvidia, for example, or you look at any of these other tech stocks, do you believe it's in a bubble?

• 0:43Speaker 00

  Do you believe, or do you believe it's more, do you think it's like 1999, or what do you think it's like?

• 0:46Speaker 01

  Are you talking about the valuations or the revenue?

• 0:49Speaker 00

  Both, actually. So let's, let's, let's, let's look about, because people tend to look at valuations first. But I, I like to look at both valuation and revenue, right? So like, if we look at it in aggregate, how do you, how do you look at it right now?

• 1:01Speaker 01

  So I don't know if valuations are in a bubble or not. While I look at the Nvidia's are, is they're the shovels, the pixies, the acts of the gold rush. Do I think there is a lot of fluff in AI and companies that are gonna fail? Yes. Do I think the energy companies, the Nvidia's and stuff like that are gonna get crushed? No, I think they're gonna keep generating more revenue for a very long time. Does that mean that their stock is gonna go up or down? That part I don't know. But they have so much demand, because think about how much AI can power from helping with cancer research and new drugs and formulas and all this kind of stuff. It has solid use case.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  The problem I'm seeing in AI, and this is what some people could assume is a bubble. Uh, and, uh, the, what's a 24-hour VC Harry something?

• 1:53Speaker 00

  20 VC.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Uh, 20 VC, what's his name, Harry?

• 1:56Speaker 00

  Harry Stebbings.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Stebbings, yeah. And he talked about how the valuations are just becoming ridiculous. He posted something on X, I think a few weeks ago. We're seeing a lot of crap companies generate tons of revenue. I'm not generating tons of revenue, get a really high valuation when they shouldn't be. A perfect example of this was, I was talking to an AI company in the video space. They do well into the eight figures in revenue. And they're talking about how, you know, their company is worth, call it a half a billion-ish dollars.

• 2:32Speaker 01

  And I looked at it and I was like, Google has a better product. And Google's product is free to cheaper, right? And I was like, I don't understand why people need to use your product when Google's product runs circles around you. And oh, by the way, they can make it free. And they're like, no, I'm like, yes. If that video product helps advertisers spend more money on Google ads. And they go from, call it 300 billion in ad revenue to 350. They don't mind losing a billion dollars to give away that product for free completely. To generate 50 more billion in ad revenue. And that's where I see a bubble in which a lot of companies, like the Jaspers of the world,

• 3:17Speaker 01

  were funded with high valuations when it never really made sense because it's what? So OpenAI creates an API, you can do this on ChatGPT. Sure, Jasper is creating some unique features, but you can do most of it with the Open API.

• 3:36Speaker 00

  Jasper was, was interesting back in the day before ChatGPT came out because it was ChatGPT-esque, right? And that's where, that's where they're accruing the value. And then, well, what happened? Not so much anymore. They actually still have a lot of employees. You see that? I checked on, on LinkedIn.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the ex Dropbox president, Tim Young, is the CEO and runs it. I don't know what their revenue is, but I heard, I've read something online, a 50, 60, whatever, million dollars. Don't get me wrong, great business. But SaaS companies are not valued at a billion dollars plus.

• 4:04Speaker 00

  They're a multi-billion dollar valuation.

• 4:06Speaker 01

  I know it's more than a billion. I don't know if it was multi-billion, but I know it's more than a billion.

• 4:10Speaker 00

  I think it was like two. That's what I read. Yeah.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  I think it was one and change.

• 4:13Speaker 00

  You could be right. I remember two or 1.5 if you wanna, you're compelled to search it. Okay, let me give you my take on this. So the reason why I brought this topic up, so is AI a bubble right now? I don't believe AI is in a bubble. Go ahead.

• 4:25Speaker 01

  Uh, 1.5.

• 4:26Speaker 00

  1.5, see?

• 4:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:27Speaker 00

  Okay, so is AI in a bubble? I don't believe so, and here's the reason, because if we go back to the concept of Jevon's paradox, right? When you think about the electricity, electricity back in the day, you think about the internet back in the day. When you and I, when our internet speeds started to get faster and faster, what started happening? We started using it more and more and more.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 4:46Speaker 00

  When we're getting more and more tokens now, really what we're buying is intelligence, the cost of intelligence, right? The cost for us to code things, like we just mentioned the efficiencies we're seeing with our engineers, our developers, right? So I'm literally arguing with a finance YouTuber right now on this, and I bet him $10,000 that, um, here's my bet. You can tell me if my bet's unreasonable, but I basically said, look, you look at the usage, it's going up right now. Companies are literally cutting headcount, not saying that's a good thing, but they are cutting head, that means they're seeing value somewhere, right? If Accenture's gonna cut 11,000, Salesforce is gonna cut 4,000, um, and Walmart's like, oh, we're gonna keep our headcount flat. Okay, something's happening, right?

• 5:21Speaker 00

  And so if, if he says, okay, well, you know, Nvidia, this is a, he's talking about the round tripping with the revenue where like, you know, um, they're investing in, in, in 100 billion in, or, uh, OpenAI, and then like 300 billion, uh, OpenAI is paying to Oracle, and like they're round tripping this revenue, right? And he's saying it's more, this is like Enron, like red, red, red flag type of stuff. I'm like, dude, like, OpenAI has 800 million users, and he's like, well, that, the $20 a month is never gonna grow into the revenue that they, I'm like, dude, in startups, you go for the users, and then you can turn on ads later, you can do whatever you want with the users later. It's not just gonna be a $20 a month thing, right? And he's arguing with me back, I'm like, okay, I'll bet you $10,000, okay?

• 5:58Speaker 00

  I bet you, OpenAI Anthropic cognition in the next five years, I'll even give you 10 years on it, their valuation, plus their rev, valuation or revenue, is going to be higher, okay? And if you wanna look at the Mag7, he was using Nvidia, he's like, why do you think Warren Buffett doesn't use Nvidia? You talk about Warren Buffett all the time, right? I'm like, yeah. I'll tell you what Warren Buffett doesn't invest in talk well stocks he's tech stocks I'm like

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Some he does he has Apple

• 6:22Speaker 00

  I think sorry I said I said Warren Buffett tends to avoid tech and so he does have Apple he does have Google but guess what It's his lieutenants that put in that money he has said in his circle of competence that he doesn't touch that stuff right And but you and I both understand technology and we know how this stuff goes Long run so I was like look okay you can take Nvidia you can take Microsoft even take Amazon as well you can take Google And I'm telling you in the next five years revenue valuation will be up okay and I'll bet you 10 I'll bet you more than that

• 6:51Speaker 01

  How many years five or 10

• 6:52Speaker 00

  I can do five I said five first I said

• 6:54Speaker 01

  I agree I think within five years they're all worth more

• 6:57Speaker 00

  Yeah

• 6:57Speaker 01

  But this is not financial advice from Eric and I this is just our own opinions we're not financial experts or economists and you could lose money But um We're I agree with you I think it's common on Enron is very Non relatable to what's happening with like Nvidia investing Enron was taking revenue And let's say the revenue was over three or four years they're booking it all right now which you're not supposed to do in accounting if someone pays you over four years you can't just count all the revenue today

• 7:26Speaker 00

  Yep

• 7:27Speaker 01

  And that's where Enron got into a big issue If Nvidia is making money from selling

• 7:36Speaker 01

  GPUs and OpenAI is trying to build massive data centers and you know that company is growing in revenue These companies have venture arms why can't they invest in them it's it's taking money off your balance sheet

• 7:50Speaker 00

  Yep

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yes they're spending some of that cash and investing it back into you but you end up becoming a owner in that organization that's growing very large

• 7:59Speaker 00

  Yep

• 8:00Speaker 01

  I look at OpenAI and Nvidia and a world where there wouldn't be a world where monopolies would be allowed You would start seeing these companies gobble each other up because they're so dependent

• 8:11Speaker 00

  Yep

• 8:11Speaker 01

  And you would grow even faster but we can't do that in today's world

• 8:15Speaker 00

  You know what Jensen said so I was listening to a podcast where he was talking to Brad Gersner right during the interview and then one of his partners was there too And so they brought it up it's like what about this round tripping he's like dude like I believe that OpenAI Jensen saying this, that OpenAI is going to be the next multi-trillion dollar company of our generation. I can see that, right? And, and he's like, we regret not putting in more money because we were poor, right? Before everything took off, right? And now here's a chance for us to put in more money and we're going to put in more money. And that was his reasoning and like, it actually goes to what you said. I'm sure you didn't listen to that podcast.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  I did not.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  It's the same logic.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  It's the same logic.

• 8:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:50Speaker 01

  It's like, um, Google invested in Uber. Early on, right? Or not that early, but early enough. And Uber started using Google Maps. Right? So what? Google sending them money, then they're making money because they're using Google Maps. I don't know what the deal or the terms of the deal are for them to use it. You could say it's going in a roundabout way, but Uber's map technology sucked compared to Google's. They use Googles, it became a better product.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  They, it's a win-win scenario for both of them.

• 9:21Speaker 00

  I, I, I look at this as just the, to kind of wrap it up. I think it's a, look, you, there's real revenue, there's real products here. And then I think if there's any, um, investing lesson, not advice for you guys. It's Warren Buffett himself. Uncle Warren Buffett has always said, you want to invest within your circle of competence. And the beauty with investing is you can wait to swing on all the pitches you want. And, and you can wait for the fat pitch and then you can swing, right? And so, and he has said like, tech is not my circle of competence. And so he doesn't bet there. And so, but when you know this, this area, um, you can afford to bet more. That's not financial advice, right? But when you understand your niche, you can press hard.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Yes. But no, yeah, and you're right. He, he does not invest in tech. It's his team members that do, and it works out for them because they understand it. And you and I are similar. We only invest in what we understand, whether that's right or wrong.

• 10:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, I mean, you and I have been stupid with angel investments, but yeah.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Angel investing has worked out for me.

• 10:18Speaker 00

  It has?

• 10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it worked out really well.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  I would say, I, net, net it's worked out, but I feel stupid because most of the bets don't work out. That's why I say it's, it's stupid.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  So I stopped doing angel investments, I don't know how many years ago, but it's, it's been a while. And then I shifted to just being LP and funds. So when I got started as an angel, companies never really raised more than a hundred million in total. I'm not talking about one round, I'm talking about in total. And they would just go public if you, you know, you raised 10, five.

• 10:45Speaker 00

  This is a long time ago.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, 1 million, you're, uh, series A, four or five, you're series B, you know? And then you got to D and then you've raised maybe a hundred total, you go public. And the returns were actually really decent if you pick the right ones. The problem that I started facing towards the latter part of my angel investing, quote unquote, career, but it wasn't really a career, more so a hobby. Yep. Is I, I invested in quite a few companies and I was one of the first checks, if not deep or I was in the first round. So I was, you know, one of the first checks. Uh huh. Right. If they raise a round of two, four, whatever million dollars or five million or a million bucks. I was participating in that round. I wouldn't take up the whole round, but I would write a check.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  And some of these companies started becoming worth two, three, four, five, six, seven billion, whatever over time and they were growing. But the problem that I ended up facing as an investor is

• 11:41Speaker 01

  when they start raising rounds like 400, 500 million dollars. You started seeing things like liquidation preferences and all this kind of other stuff. That makes it harder for you as angels to get return versus what I used to see before. And people were starting to, they started to pay up because when you look at most financial investing, some of these venture funds were starting to get 30, 40, 50% returns. There was a lot of other people who were like, well, we'll pay up for these and we're okay with 20% returns. And some of the top tier venture funds do 20% because they have so much money and so much capital is being deployed. Entrepreneurs are getting diluted and that's fine, but there's also higher valuations.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  It's just the angels don't, from what I've experienced, I'm not saying this is everyone, this is just what I experienced. My returns aren't as great as it used to be 15, 20 years ago. Maybe I'm just picking the wrong companies, but people look at like anthropic. And I know some of the behind the scenes deals and people like, oh, look at this, they're worth 150 billion. Look at the early angels, they made a killing. No, they're not getting these crazy valuations with some, call it liquidation preferences and guarantees on how much return they get, which really does screw up the returns for the original angels. And I know some of the angels or earlier investors on some of these deals. And I've talked to them about their returns on some of these A companies like, it's not. Is good. I'm like some of these late stage companies or late stage rounds.

• 13:09Speaker 01

  These companies that are putting in, you know, five, 10, 15 billion dollars. They're not just being like, cool, we'll do it at 100 plus billion valuation. Whatever happens, happens. They have terms in there that really protect their downside, which hurts the returns for the earlier angels. So now I just stick with being an LP in the funds. Let those, those guys do it and grind it out. And if I get my 20% returns, great. If it's 30, great, but the bigger the funds that I'm in, the harder it is for them to produce 30, 40%. The smaller the funds, like call it sub 100 million. They have a higher chance, but when some of these funds have like 7 billion, 10 billion, just for one fund, it's hard for them to produce 30, 40, 50% returns.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  They call that the law of big numbers, but here, here's what I'll say. So yes, as, as angel investing, like my, my very first one was a 50xer, the very first one, right? But here's the thing, a private equity guy recently tweeted this, right? And I was like, oh, this makes a lot of sense and you and I have talked about this. It's like, dude, if you put money into a fund or whatever, you go into private equity or like, and you sold the business before, you will never have the same returns you had with your business. And that's what we learned. Our business is the best ROI machine by far. And I think at least for me, I got distracted by all these things in the past, right? But then you, you start to look at it. I think a lot of people, when they sell their company too, they expect to have the same returns when, you know, by deploying into these funds and all that. It's just not the reality. So.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  It's not. And like, dude, I've invested like, uh, there was one company I put a hundred grand in. I think it returned six or eight ish million, six and change or eight and change to me.

• 14:41Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  So it's like, I've had some good wins on it and they make up for all my other investments. But the problem is, is like, it's not just picking. I've picked companies that are worth four, five, 10 ish billion dollars. And the returns just aren't the same when you're the first check compared to what it used to be. Cause now they just raised so much and they stay private forever.

• 15:02Speaker 00

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• 15:39Speaker 01

  Did you see, so there's two things, and I have, they're both similar topics on here. So there was a post on Reddit, it says, disguised promotion on Reddit for the sake of G E O has to stop. And I saw it on Reddit, and funny enough, I also saw that on Tim Solo's account, the Ahrefs CMO. And I was cracking up when he took a screenshot of it and posted it, and he said, he's like, no, no, no, this is just starting. And I was cracking up because I'm like, this is so true. I'm like, if these L L M's are gonna cite Reddit all the time, what the heck do you think marketers are gonna do? They're gonna spam the crap out of Reddit. And I'm not saying they should, I'm just saying this is the reality.

• 16:23Speaker 00

  This is a game for every channel.

• 16:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is a game for every channel. This is what all marketers do. And I'm using spam really loosely, but on Reddit, people will really try to spam. It's gonna make the community crappier. I'm not saying you should, I think it's short sighted, and I think it's a waste of time of doing that. But Reddit, and I think this was very well due, Reddit stock sinks 12% as Chat G P T references to its content plunges from 10% to 2% in September.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  Here's the headline I had originally, Reddit drops $5.3 billion because of an S E O report.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  I believe it was from Yahoo, I saw it from Yahoo Finance, I don't know where it first came out.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  So they pulled this, so there's a guy, there's a software called Prompt Watch, and it shows you the big drop, right? And some, a guy tweeted it, and then it got cited by all these news sources.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  Well, no, I think that was great because the problem, I'm not talking about the stock dropping, I don't want anyone to lose money. But when you look at Reddit and the citations that are happening on Google and on Chat G P T. It's insane in a bad way. They're referencing it too much and the quality is really low. Um, I get Google has a deal with Reddit for data and I get that Sam Altman owns a percentage of Reddit shares, whether it's through his fund or indirectly, however it was. And sure, he benefits from it and they made an announcement before Reddit went public.

• 17:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  But for me, the quality of Reddit information.

• 17:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Wasn't.

• 17:51Speaker 00

  It wasn't the best to begin with.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  No, and they were just citing it like crazy on chat GPT and, and it has nothing to do with Reddit. Sure, if I really wanted to, I could figure out ways to game Reddit. I know so many top users, but I, I, you know, I'm not focusing on that, nor do I care to do that because I, I didn't believe for the longest time that they're going to continually cite Reddit all the time because of quality. And the same goes with chat GPT. Dude, you know how many people I know are just guest posting on junk websites? And they're doing comparison tables with like structured data, comparing their SaaS product with other people.

• 18:23Speaker 00

  This is no different than the early days of SEO.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yes. And, and people are like, why aren't you doing that like crazy? It works so well for chat GPT. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I've seen this show before. It works well right now. Eventually they'll realize this is making chat GPT data more crap. And they'll filter out crappy websites and it won't work the same.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  For sure. At, at, at best, they will only filter. At worst, they will start to ban people.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. They'll, they'll start going through. Sorry for the.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's okay.

• 18:54Speaker 01

  Noise.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  Neil's drinking some water right now. Yeah. You know what's interesting? As you, as you drink, um, we have a mutual friend that, that here in the Beverly Hills area. So I, I saw him at a, a YPO event recently. He's like, and he was kind of talking down to me a little bit. He's like, oh, you gotta go on Reddit. Yeah. I'm, I'm all in on Reddit. I'm, I'm gonna go hard on this stock. And I was kind of making the same points that we're making.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Is he the same one who got us both into YPO?

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And then he was like, also like dismissing me as if I don't know anything I'm talking about, right? He's like, no, no, no, trust me, trust me. This Sam Altman owns this, da, da, da. I'm like, yeah, man. Like it doesn't help if we spam.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  The internet, we add more crap to it like we've seen this with SEO. Yeah. Sam Altman owns portion Reddit. Let's talk once he sells all his Reddit shares. Yeah. Right? If he already did, I don't know if he's a long-term holder, but eventually he'll look at as, oh, either I sold all my Reddit shares, so I don't care anymore. Or B, yeah, I still hold shares and my shares are worth fifty million dollars, but man, my chat GPT experience is becoming worse. And that could potentially cost me five, ten billion dollars in net worth. So, uh, yeah, it's all right. It's okay if we lose the Reddit shares. Yeah, I'll lose all my Reddit shares or dump them and then, you know, that's what a logical person does. Yep. By the way, I mean, kind of related to this one. Oh.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  So I have this topic here on why SEO attribution is dead. So, um, but I can't log into my LinkedIn right now, so you can pick another topic. That's okay. We can just go with SEO attribution is dead and why we agree with that. I don't know what you're referencing there, but I believe SEO attribution is dead for two reasons. I don't have the chart in front of me, but when we look at where people learn from a company versus where they buy, SEO is a big chunk of where they learn about a company, but it doesn't pass as the last conversion source a lot of times from where they convert. Two, SEO has evolved into optimizing for, you know, AI overviews, these LLM platforms like, uh, chat GPT.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  And you're getting the brand mentions, but it's really screwing up, uh, your conversion tracking because a lot of people are learning about a company through these LLMs. Assuming you can get your brand cited more, but the conversion source isn't always where they first found you. So you gotta do, you know, multi-touch attribution. Plus, it's not all trackable. When someone sees your brand, they don't necessarily convert right away or even click right away, but they come back. And I think attribution, not just for SEO, but for SEO, organic, social. A lot of these channels are dead and the attribution for paid. What we see is it skews more where the platforms try to take credit for the conversions.

• 21:35Speaker 01

  When, I'm not saying they didn't help us, but they weren't the only touch point.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  Remember what was said a long time ago with advertising, it's like, you know, 50, 50% of my marketing on the dollar works. I just don't know which 50%. And this is where we're going again, because back in the day, when we first started doing this, let's call it like 15, for you, like maybe a little longer, 20 years ago or whatever. You had attribution, you can see keyword attribution, you see this, everything was very much last touch. But you can't look at it that way. And this post actually came from our mutual friend, Gaetano. And like AI traffic could go to your homepage, your pricing, your solutions, like you don't know what's actually driving, like sure, you're good. We're not saying don't look at your analytics, but it's no longer gospel. I think you and I in the very beginning, we looked at it as gospel. It's not like that anymore.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  When's the last time you checked your analytics?

• 22:17Speaker 00

  I actually checked it like earlier this week, but I was looking at, I was looking at AI traffic data. That's what I was looking at.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  I don't think I've logged into my Google Analytics for probably six months.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  And Neil used to look at it every day. Whenever I went to Neil's house, Google Analytics was pulled up.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  I used to look at it like five, six times a day.

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 22:34Speaker 01

  But on the flip side, I do have a decent sized team at this point. I don't know how many people are marketing, but we have over a thousand plus people. So there's so many people that log in and send me reports. I don't need to log in. So that's one.

• 22:46Speaker 00

  To be fair, Neil gets a bunch of text messages in different text groups.

• 22:49Speaker 01

  Yes, and they, they break down all the data for me. And some of it comes from Google Analytics, some of it comes from our own homegrown solution, some of it comes from, you know, things like Recurly, Stripe, you get the point. But I do look at data probably two to three times a day. It's just, I don't have to log into Google Analytics. And I agree with you on attribution. I think there's been a big issue for attribution for a long time. Eric had this headline on his Single Grain homepage for a long time.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  I'm gonna butcher it, but you know what I'm talking, actually you, you, you better for me to say.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  78% of CEOs don't believe that marketers measure ROI. We do.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yes, it was something like that. And. I think it's totally spot on in which most marketers never really measured attribution and executives never really believed in it, but back in the day, it was easier to measure than it is now. I think it's just, we have more tools to help us, but it's more complex because data is in so many different areas and all the sources don't give you the data. And then the second problem is, is because of that, you don't really know what's fully causing the conversions. So you can show reports, it's just making marketer, it's making a marketer's job more harder in today's world.

• 24:05Speaker 00

  Yep. All right. So that's it for today, guys, and we'll see you tomorrow.