AI Makes You A Learning Machine Or A Lazy Machine

Neil and Eric discuss how AI can turn you into a learning machine or a lazy one, why AI agents inside teams are transforming productivity, and how businesses can win by training AI instead of people. They break down ChatGPT ad performance vs Google and Meta, the winner-take-all nature of AI SEO rankings, and why relationships still drive enterprise revenue. Learn how to leverage AI for marketing, sales, and operations while avoiding costly mistakes. Key Takeaways: AI makes you smarter or lazier AI agents are reshaping teams Position #1 wins AI search Chapters: (00:00) AI: Learning vs Laziness (00:33) Smart vs Lazy Users (01:04) AI Agents in Teams (01:29) AI Coaching Employees (03:00) AI Business Opportunities (05:19) AI SEO Rankings Data (06:47) ChatGPT Ads vs Google (09:13) APIs and AI Agents (10:59) Power of Relationships (14:18) Networking and Trust

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:43Speaker 00

  Neil probably asks a lot of tax questions to his AI, okay? So more or less as a tax strategist, right? You're learning more, there's, I'm sure there's a lot that you've learned about things that you just didn't know before, right? But my point is, you, you're asking a lot more questions that you usually would have asked before. You're not just kind of, you know, expect, like, taking it and say, "Okay, AI do the work for me." So when I say AI makes you a learning machine, you ask more questions and you actually expand your mind more. That's for smart people, okay? Now, unfortunately, many people,

• 1:12Speaker 00

  many people, like, you wanna be, you wanna be lazy and smart. You don't wanna just be lazy, okay? So, cuz smart and lazy people try to figure out ways around things, right? They figure out creative ways. But if you're just someone that just throws it over the fence and you're just like, "ChatGPT is gonna solve the problems, ChatGPT will write my prompts for me, ChatGPT is gonna write all the content for me", then you will get sloped, right? So that's the first point I wanted to make. But the second point to, to, to what you're saying is, I've had my AI agents, they've started to invade my Slack channels, right? And so they're working in my, my, my sales room, they're working in my recruiting room, they're working in the SEO room too, and it's working with the team. Now here's the thing, I see their teams asking for data polls, and it's giving the team strategies, outside-the-box strategies, and it's rating our strategies, and it's also offering to do the work too. Now here's the other thing that you just mentioned that gave me an idea.

• 1:57Speaker 00

  So Neil and I just made an idea, baby. Let us, let the everyone know that we just made a baby. So. The idea, baby, that we made here, Neil, is if you have it coaching your team, okay? Like, imagine your kids are gonna be working with personalized AI tutors, right? Everyone on your team now has a personalized coach, okay? That has all the data that understands what that team's supposed to hit. And it's gonna help coach the team, but it's also gonna what? It's also gonna performance manage the team, too.

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  Whether you like it or not, that's what's going to happen. And it's gonna show like a leaderboard that way. And I think that's a good and a bad thing, right? I think we're always just, we're always just trying to do better for our companies. And I think this is great. Like, I didn't have that idea for the coaching piece, but I think I'm gonna inject that a little bit into my little bots that have invaded Slack. Which it's been tremendous. My team's like, oh, my God. I'm like, you say you like it, how useful has it been? Oh, my God, 10 out of 10, 10 out of 10. I'm like, okay, all right, we'll do more.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Dude, I was telling Heathen about this concept, cuz he has his AI lab where he helps people set up.

• 2:57Speaker 00

  Is it really a lab?

• 2:58Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  And he helps people set up, you know, all this stuff internally, whether it's OpenClaw or whatever.

• 3:05Speaker 00

  Does he charge six grand for OpenClaw setups?

• 3:07Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it's, I think it was either five or $10,000.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  I think that's fair.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Right? So, and then including the PC or something like that.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  That's a really good deal.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  That's why I think it's closer to 10 grand.

• 3:20Speaker 00

  If you include the Mac Mini, he's probably make, that's like, the Mac Mini will cost like a thousand bucks or so. And then the rest, you know, he figures out.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's 10 grand or somewhere around there.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  I think that's a good deal.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  Um, so, you know, I was telling him, I was like, dude, I'm like, the opportunity, and I don't know if he's, if he's doing this or not. But I think the opportunity in AI right now, if you're trying to set up a big business, outside of creating LLM, which is very difficult and expensive, and creating those loveables is very hard to do. You know, for every lovable that we see at 400 million in ARR, there's, I don't even know how many that are struggling, right? There's too many to count. Is do consulting where you help train people's AI to

• 4:05Speaker 00

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• 4:40Speaker 01

  Produce better outputs when their employees use them. So instead of training the employees, train the AI to adapt to the humans and do this at mass scale for everything, from marketing to engineering, etc. It's pretty much another version of Bain or McKinsey or Accenture, but specifically focused on just training AI to deal with people wherever they are versus trying to train the people, because I think it's going to be too hard to train the people.

• 5:04Speaker 00

  Exactly. So that's why I think the sooner you get it working for yourself as in the organization, like your leaders, whoever's running AI, then you get these bots to invade your Slack channel or your team's channel. Everyone's going to learn because your team's going to feed it context. It's also going to feed, like, it's just going to be like this self-reinforcing loop. And that's what we've been doing. And we've getting, I will say, we're getting more and more people reaching out to us saying, hey, we're hearing what you're talking about. Like, we want these enterprise agents set up. Like, we want these revenue agents. We want these recruiting agents. We want all these things. So the market's kind of pulling us in that direction. So we'll see where it goes, but I do think it's like what Heaton's doing for the setup is huge. I think you and I, like what we're talking about right now, even what's happening on Twitter is probably like the top 1% of the 1%. The vast majority of the world doesn't know about this stuff, and that's where I think the opportunity is.

• 5:49Speaker 00

  Like, if you're listening to this and you're like 18 years old right now, I would just do this.

• 5:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Honest, I know, speaking of AI, did I ever share with you the results that we ended up finding? Because because of our size and scale, and we're not the biggest agency. But we have enough data on certain industries where we know if you're recommended number one by ChatGPT versus number two versus number three.

• 6:12Speaker 00

  You should do that and then talk about the ads too.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  No, that's already out there. We put that out there.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Oh, you did? I I I no, you didn't say it here.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  No, yeah, yeah. I don't know if I said it here. I'm trying to end up finding the chart. But it was interesting because I was just like, huh. Everyone knows that being position one on Google, it's worth so much more than being positioned two. But AI is way more of a winner take all than traditional search. So if if you count the most revenue you can make is position number one, let's call that a hundred percent. If you're position number two, you do roughly thirty two percent of position number one.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  I was just gonna say that.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  And guess what position number three is compared to position number one?

• 6:48Speaker 00

  Five percent?

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Close, eight percent. And position number four.

• 6:53Speaker 00

  One point five percent?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Very close, one percent. So pretty much if they're if ChatGPT or Gemini or perplexity is giving you a list. It's number one takes almost all the revenue, then number two, and then it just pretty much doesn't matter.

• 7:07Speaker 00

  The old way of SEO, back in the day when there weren't any ads or anything, like number one got the lion's share. And then like they started pushing it down more and more, and then the click the rate started going down more and more. So we'll see what happens, but that's that's good to know.

• 7:18Speaker 01

  Dude, I I don't have a I I don't have it posted. I'll end up showing you on this. Check this out. How ChatGPT ads, because we were talking about this over text.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  So what Neil has pulled up, so it says how are ChatGPT ads perform against Meta and Google Ads? So it shows ChatGPT versus Meta plus two hundred fifty six percent, okay?

• 7:40Speaker 01

  This is for lead quality, I believe, right?

• 7:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, I can't see, but.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Let me see. Let's see. Yeah, lead quality.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  Okay, so two hundred fifty six percent up on ChatGPT versus Meta, but ChatGPT versus Google fifty percent down.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's down. Yeah, exactly. Forty nine percent. Close enough.

• 7:56Speaker 00

  What's the bottom one?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  The bottom one is cost per acquisition, so CPA.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, so CPA, ChatGPT versus Meta, forty six percent cheaper, and then ChatGPT versus Google, thirty eight percent cheaper. So it's clearly a winner versus Meta. And then, you know, you're still gonna get.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Well, even Google, if you want.

• 8:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  Cause at the end of the day.

• 8:15Speaker 00

  For CPA basis, yes.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, cause as a marketer, we really care about CPA, right? Lead quality from Google is much higher than ChatGPT, but you also have to look at cost. Google Ads are some of the most expensive, because lead quality doesn't assume cost.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  You can end up spending three, four times for a click, because someone may end up typing in like, I'm looking for a global digital marketing agency, or I'm looking for the best ABM account, ABM software solution that works really well with LinkedIn. And then carrot could end up showing up, right? You can end up bidding on that, but it's gonna be a very expensive cost per click. Lead quality, I totally agree, Google is extremely high on lead quality, but the ads are just so much cheaper right now on ChatGPT, it's the wild, wild west.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  This just goes to show you again, every time with marketing, whenever a new ad channel comes out, you want to hit it really hard before the costs start to go up.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  Yes, and a lot of people are struggling to get into ChatGPT ads, but they no longer need to struggle, because ChatGPT just announced a partnership with Criteo.

• 9:23Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  So now people should be able to get access to ChatGPT.

• 9:27Speaker 00

  Good for Criteo's business.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  I was shocked that they partnered with Criteo.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Nobody talks about Criteo anymore.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, because they're known for like, more of like a spammy-ish, affiliate-ish.

• 9:37Speaker 00

  Must be a relationship somebody had in OpenAI with them, yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 01

  I would assume that Trade Desk would have got it.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Who knows? Yeah, a lot of this stuff is relationship-based.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it totally is.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  So, okay, but let me ask you this, kind of separately, because we're talking about just marketing in general right now. Have you added, do you have APIs for both UberSuggest and Answer to Public?

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 9:59Speaker 00

  So I think APIs as marketing is gonna become like very big, because you have the agents crawling the web, right? So I think your, your, your technical documentation is gonna be important, and then your APIs. Because the way like I'm starting to work more now is within LLMs, I'm just asking to do stuff. So yesterday I was messing around with one of our agents, and we use this thing to send cold emails, call instantly, I'm like.

• 10:20Speaker 00

  I don't want to make five, first, I don't want to write five different campaigns. Okay, that's number one. And then second, I don't want to load all the copy into these individual campaigns. And I'm just like, hey, can you like create five campaigns for me? And create like an expert panel of like legendary copywriters and email copywriters? And then recursively score them until they're like, you know, 90 plus out of 100? And it does five versions for me. I'm like, these look pretty good. And I'm like, well, I don't want to load them. I'm like, anything you ask me to, I still want to do it, right? So I'm like, can you just like do it for me? And like, it's like, it loads everything. I check it, I'm like, oh my God, it loads up. Right, so I'm like, with the software you have, with the software I have, we need to have APIs for it. So then the agents can discover it first, because I don't think other people are doing it that quickly right now.

• 11:01Speaker 00

  And then you have to have good documentation and MintLify has really good SEO, like, not SEO, but software documentation.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  What is it called again?

• 11:08Speaker 00

  MintLify.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Uh, mid, M I D?

• 11:11Speaker 00

  M I N T Lify.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Oh, mint, like, uh, like the, yeah, mint ice cream.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Or, yeah, that's true.

• 11:17Speaker 01

  Toothpaste.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  So MintLify, they've been growing faster and all they focus on was documentation. And I think they're going to grow even faster now, because all these agents, that's all they read is documentation. They don't, they don't care about like, you know, show me like a, you know, a bikini sports or something like that, you know?

• 11:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and before you got into that topic, you mentioned relationships and how people close businesses through relationships. Do you want to take a guess on what portion, or actually, I'll ask you first. What portion of your agency revenue comes from relationships?

• 11:46Speaker 00

  Well, what do you define as a relationship? Like, they know you from your content, like?

• 11:49Speaker 01

  You know the person.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  So not that they know of your brand, or they know of the single grain brand. They may also know that, but you also know that individual. Or employee on your organization knows the other person who's interested in working with you.

• 12:03Speaker 00

  I say 20%.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 12:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:06Speaker 01

  That's a good chunk.

• 12:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, but we're also smaller, so.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  Correct, on our SMB division, I don't know what the numbers are, but maybe somewhere similar. I'm guessing, I don't, I honestly don't know. I do know the majority does not come from relationships in our SMB division, that I'm 100% on.

• 12:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Uh, for enterprise, over the last three months of our sales, I don't have March's numbers yet, but.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  Like, 2%?

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Relationships?

• 12:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  It's almost all relationships, so this is, yeah.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  So that's you like, but you know these people is what you're saying.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Are you specifically taking, are you talking about me and my relationships?

• 12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  Or relationships within my organization?

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Okay, no, I was talking about you specifically.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't know my percentage. I know the percentage of all of us combined.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, all of us, like, that makes sense. That makes complete sense.

• 12:53Speaker 01

  So when I look at like my managing director of Australia and his relationships, or Javi who leads Latam for us, or Mike G, our CEO. Majority, when I say majority, I'm talking about ninety plus percent is starting to become relationships. Now, some may be classified as like, oh, you got a RFP from this company. Oh, we got a RFP from that company because I have a relationship with someone who works on there, or my team has a relationship with someone who works there.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  And we may end up winning that RFP, and if we did, you could be like, oh, you got it because of RFP. Well, if we didn't have the relationship, we probably would have never been included in the RFP.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  You know, I think, so relationships aren't going away anytime soon, but when you look at a lot of maybe these agencies or service companies that have become really bloated over time, they still have the relationships. So like, the way is, can you acquire the relationships and AIify what you can? Um, and it's not like it's a new thesis or anything, but it's like, but it's clear to me that a lot of these are moving like dinosaurs. Um, but the relationships are still incredibly valuable, but once they start to get hit more and more, they can't take it anymore, they're gonna have to, you know, tap out and sell, so.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  I, I think what people forget about relationships when you're doing deals, relationships create trust. And what we found is when people, when you do good work and people move from one company to another and they know you, they, yes, there's change when they're going to a new organization, but they also like a feeling of comfort. And they know that if they hit you up and they work with you again, they can rely on you, they already know what to expect, and you should be performing. And I think that trust part is something that people overlook a lot in marketing, in which that is like, yeah, we want to put the message out there, what can I end up doing to maximize my conversion rate?

• 14:35Speaker 01

  But they forget to really emphasize on building trust. And Google's talked about this for ages with the double E A T, right? The last one being trust in E. If, if you end up building that trust, I just think it works so well for you in the long run.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  That's why. During nice events are good for building relationships at scale sometimes.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, and let's go back to dinners. Do you still do your dinners here?

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Every two months or so, three months. I was doing it every month for a little bit, but I'm so heads down with this. You know, my eyes, like, my eyes hurt like hell every night when I go to bed. Cause I'm on this until I burn my eyes out.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Have you tried drops or?

• 15:12Speaker 00

  I do drops, but you have the lasik issue I have, right? Where like your lipids don't, the oils don't come back as quickly, so your eyes dry out quickly. So I do use drops, but then because I'm just, I can't, every time my eyes come back, I just, I get on it again, I burn it out. But my point is, yes, I've been doing the dinners, but less. And then the thing is, all those dinners have been AI dinners. And then all those founders are also doing the same thing. They're burning their eyes out every day. So.

• 15:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I have the same issue. I didn't know you had laser eye surgery.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  But yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  You have the same issue.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, my eyes are dry. I don't really feel it like you feel it. I'm also not on the screen as much. I'm more on my phone call, so I'm not looking at my screen. Yeah, I'm talking. But every time I go to optometrist, they always tell me like, oh, you need to do this. Try putting this like vaseline type thing in your eye. I'm like, why? Like your eyes are dry.

• 15:59Speaker 00

  It didn't help. I did it for six months. It didn't help. So I went to a doctor, right next to the doctor I have in Beverly Hills. But, um, so the big thing I found, this is a little tangent, but like, if you look at your phone too much and it's a dark room, that it like, it screws it up way faster. So don't do that. Yeah, like I worked out those with chat G P. I was like, why is that? It's like, explain all the science. I'm like, okay, makes sense. So.

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Dude, the time I look at my phone more than anything when it's dark is on an airplane.

• 16:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is really bad.

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, to watch like movies and then I fall asleep.

• 16:28Speaker 00

  Why do you watch on your phone? Your phone on your?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Phone, dude, I copied your phone. You know how you used to have the MacBook, not MacBook, iPhone Air? I ended up buying your exact same phone.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  Oh, nice.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Right? Cause when you're on an airplane.

• 16:40Speaker 00

  But you watch movies on this on the airplane, on the iPad.

• 16:42Speaker 01

  I got rid of the iPad.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Why?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  It was just harder to deal with work.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  It's so good for movies.

• 16:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, my problem with the iPad, I've been using, you you kind of nailed it. Earlier, you mentioned I'd probably use AI a lot for tax related questions. I use AI a lot for structuring related questions.

• 17:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:03Speaker 01

  And spreadsheet, so still finance, it's not always tax, but even structuring indirectly, it is related to taxes. Finances is related to taxes one way or another. I've always found that and because of AI, it's just so much easier for me to crank out reports and slice and dice the data. It's just harder to get the data in a format I want on an iPad. And it's just easier for me to do crap.

• 17:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:28Speaker 01

  With a computer.

• 17:30Speaker 00

  So you're using Claude code within the Claude app, I'm assuming.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:33Speaker 00

  Okay, that's how you're using it. Okay. Yeah, there's so many things we can talk about there.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  But we also export a lot of data to Excel.

• 17:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:41Speaker 01

  And then when you export to Excel, because I'm really good at using Excel.

• 17:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  It's just easier for me to use Excel on my laptop.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:50Speaker 01

  Than the iPad, because iPad versions of a lot of these softwares. Yes, it's pretty much the same, but it's not identically the same. And it's just for some reason, I just do better using it on my laptop.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  Imagine if you have a, if you had a secure version of a claw. So like Nvidia is coming out with Nemo Claw, which is like their version of Open Claw, but it's secure, right? So imagine they come out with that and it's sitting on your phone. It's ingesting all of the text that you're getting on the updates and all that. And because you work with it as your co-pilot and the charts you make, it understands your behavior over time. And it builds on that and it just starts to make the charts for you over time. And it makes better charts for you, too.

• 18:23Speaker 01

  We've tried using AI for the charts so much. We try every single month, because if we did that.

• 18:29Speaker 00

  It's okay, just keep trying.

• 18:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, we would save on the design budget.

• 18:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  You want to know the biggest problem when we actually put the inputs into AI?

• 18:35Speaker 00

  What?

• 18:36Speaker 01

  For the charts? This is going to sound like the stupidest problem. I wouldn't say it's not a hundred percent of the time.

• 18:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:42Speaker 01

  But like, and it's not even fifty percent of the time. Maybe like fifteen to twenty percent of the time, it messes up the design.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  So it doesn't keep the exact style guide.

• 18:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:53Speaker 01

  No matter what you tell it. And then I would say.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Twenty-five to thirty percent of the time, it messes up the data.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  So then, and then to fix it, because we look at the cost, right? To fix it and find the errors, because a lot of the people, the designers, don't find the errors. That's more costly to us, the reputational hit, than just having it done right.

• 19:20Speaker 00

  So, oh, you can't shut up the clients, obviously.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  No, no, we can't. But what we find is people will say they check it and they don't check it. So then when we do it manually, there's less errors. And the cost isn't that high, like my design cost for the charts is call it around three thousand dollars a month. At three thousand dollars a month, yeah, I don't care and I don't want the reputational hit of just AI messing up. But one day, it will get it right a hundred percent of the time. Will it be six months or a year? The technology is there, they just got to fine tune this stuff.

• 19:49Speaker 00

  Anyway, that's it for today, guys. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe and we'll see you later.