SEO Strategy: Why 'Versus' Pages Are Your Secret Weapon

Why versus pages are your secret SEO weapon. Noah Kagan shipped 19 SEO pages from a $20 Mac app and got six sales in three days, and Eric breaks down the two page types every product needs: versus pages and best-for guides. Neil adds two fixes, getting other sites to publish them and comparing the brands ChatGPT and Claude already recommend, and says comparison pages drive more revenue than listicles. Then Instinct: 10% daily growth, 40% of users adding a card, and why Neil would sell it to Apple. Sam Lessin says there is no moat in AI agents, Neil's Muse test turns hundreds of drafts into three sent emails, and Outrank's data shows sites with 400+ links got 115% more Google clicks. A practical episode on SEO and AI agents. Key takeaways ◾Build versus and alternative pages for the competitors AI already cites ◾AI agents have little loyalty, so the product has to keep earning it ◾Linkable assets still move Google clicks Chapters 00:00 Noah Kagan's 19 SEO pages and 6 sales 01:16 Neil: get other sites to publish your pages 02:38 Listicles are the new links 03:39 Comparison pages drive more revenue than listicles 04:02 Instinct: 10% a day, 40% add a card 05:21 Neil: Instinct should sell to Apple 06:37 Eric bets the founder sells 07:39 Apple could build this itself 08:24 Sam Lessin: there is no moat in AI agents 10:02 Neil's Muse test: hundreds of drafts, 3 sent 13:47 Every's personal agent comparison 14:24 Jev as a classifier for a fraction of a penny 16:36 Nobody is loyal to an AI product 17:37 Outrank: 400+ links, 115% more Google clicks 19:48 Neil: building something good? Ignore the hate 20:58 Linkable assets beat bought links Growth Newsletter: https://levelingup.beehiiv.com/subscribe Need marketing help? Visit: https://www.singlegrain.com/ and https://npdigital.com/

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Finding customer information shouldn't mean digging through emails, call notes, and spreadsheets. HubSpot Starter Plan brings all of those details together, so it's easier to track what's happening with every deal and what to do next. It pulls information from calls and emails. Then it gets to work, logging and summarizing them. Right after your call ends, HubSpot pulls next steps from your call notes and drafts suggested follow-ups. And it stays up to date for you, so you can build demand, win more deals, and spend less time on repetitive work. Your records, insights, and next steps are ready for you to act on. And you don't have to miss a beat searching for any of it. Try the Starter Plan for $10 a month. Learn more at hubspot.com. So, um, I saw this post from Noah Kagan over here. And he mentioned, uh, so Noah Kagan from AppSumo.

• 0:41Speaker 00

  So he said, "New thing you must do today. I shipped SEO, nineteen SEO pages for my $20 Mac app." Um, and so since then, six PayPal sales in three days. Two types of pages every product needs. So we're talking about, if you're gonna use AI for this stuff, to make AEO/SEO stuff, you might as well try to generate ROI from it, going back to our main point. So what do you say? Competitor pages, guys. So these are versus pages. So Rhino versus Whisperflow, Whisperflow alternative. So I guess he has a Whisperflow alternative, okay? And then he has best product for, uh, you know, X for lawyers, doctors, ADHD, students, right? Paste this in the Claude code. Uh, find my top, uh, five competitors, build a versus page and an alternative page for each. Then write ten, uh, best products for audience guides, be honest, and see when a competitor is better. Copy this layout, it's clean.

• 1:24Speaker 00

  So this, by the way, guys, I'm not saying this is the end all be all. What I'm saying is, this is a good example. If you want to prove to your manager, or your, the, your, your founder, your CEO, whoever it is that you're working with directly, just show them this. Hey, I shipped these things over here, we got this ROI over here, and I am ready to scale it. If I can spend X amount of dollars, if we spend X amount of dollars, I think I'm gonna get Y return, and we should do this, right? Not just, I need more token spend.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  There, there's two things here that you guys can adjust with the strategy if you want it to work really well. Um, I'm not saying it doesn't work, but it can work even better. The first is, figure out how you can reach out to other websites and convince them to publish this content. So it works really well if it's not just on your website, that's A. Because if you look at most queries, uh, whenever you search for Claude, or ChatGPT, or whatever it may be, majority of the time, they're looking off of your own website, right? They're looking on other people's websites. They do a lot of fan-out queries. The second thing is, if you ask ChatGPT or Claude a question related to your space, and you're seeing the results that they bring up. If you are comparing other businesses that aren't on that list,

• 2:33Speaker 01

  it's not gonna do as well compared to comparing businesses that they're already recommending. So what we see is, let's say you had fifty articles that you created. You wouldn't wanna just create fifty articles on your website, but I'm just giving you a hypothetical, because if you have too much junk content, it actually hurts you. If you create articles on your website, and you're comparing products that ChatGPT and Claude aren't referencing a lot, they tend not to pull from what we see, your content, as much compared to if you're referencing, uh, competitors that they tend to pull more often for the queries you're looking for. That gets include, that gets you included much faster from what we see.

• 3:11Speaker 00

  By the way, I mean, you, you know what you can do to do that, just, uh, just people listening to this. This is a very simple thing to do now, because when you use something like a Grokbot, you can just literally take the transcript from what Neil just said right now, dump that into Grokbot and say, "Just build this for me," right? And then you can just continue to iterate on it over time and have it handle the, the outreach for you. You can keep tweaking over time. It gets smarter over time too, right? And so, um, to, to Neil's point, yes, the LLMs have gotten smarter about this, because if you think about it, oh, all these people are gaming the system, oh, how are they gaming the system? Oh, they're just posting listicles on their websites, their own sites, and then citing their thing as number one. Well, that's pretty easy to spot. So you, you, like, they've evolved. Like, I'm not saying this doesn't work, by the way, and Neil's not saying it doesn't work either. It does.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  But to, to, like, if you think about it, how have, how has Google always worked? Well, they realized that people used to just spam their own stuff, like when they spam keywords on their site. So what happened? They realized that links were the answer. And this is the new way of links, right? It's, it's, it's the same thing, but, you know, new again.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, uh, and speaking of listicles and comparisons, we see comparison articles, they, even though listicles, we see them being cited more, just from a one-to-one, from a revenue standpoint, we see the comparison articles drive way more revenue than listicles.

• 4:31Speaker 00

  That's interesting. So, um, while we sit on, by the way, let's talk, let's go back to Instinct for a moment, right? So if they're growing 10% day on day, so Instinct, just so everyone knows, it's like a, it's a, it's an agent that you can manage inside of your iMessage right now, and there's not any setup that's needed, and it's always being proactive for you, right? It's like, for example, um, they reach out to a bunch of people to speak at my, my AI summit, right? Which is happening next month. Um, and, and, and so it's, that part is cool, and a lot of people are, I think, Neil, this is interesting. If you, basically, if you use the product for like one or two weeks, about forty percent of new users will put in their credit card information, right? Um, which is already pretty big. And so there, when I think about that, if you're growing 10% a day,

• 5:15Speaker 00

  and, you know, you're compounding really quickly, that's why these VCs are willing to give you money too. And plus, you have to pay for compute costs too. But the, the challenge with it, with his business too, is like, you have to decide if you wanna make that compute bet or not. And the, the other challenge too is, when you're up against Meta Muse, and you're up against Grokbot, and then, you know, Google supposedly has their own bot, I think everyone's gonna have their own bot coming out. How do you stand out, right? And so, um, I think for him, he's gotta figure out his path to monetization. He's not gonna just try to collect, um, you know, like a, like a, like a sliver of payments. He's not, he's not trying to play, play the payments game. Uh, but it's interesting to me, when you have the users coming in, the world is your oyster. Um, so I think it's worth talking about, because, uh, he's got some interesting challenges.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Well, he has a big waitlist, so I think that helps with their growth rate, because you can choose how many you wanna let in. Um, I look at that business as you're gonna have tons of competitors over time. I'm not saying he's gonna lose or win, time will tell. I'm a little bit of a different entrepreneur, and I'm wrong probably majority of the times. Like, I would have never made that, what, thirteen billion dollar bet that Facebook made on Scale?

• 6:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 01

  Uh-huh. Uh, or eleven, or whatever it was. Uh, it was something like that. If I was Instinct, and I can sell the business for twelve or fifteen billion dollars, I would sell it to like Apple and let them just plug it in and give away a lot of it for free, because Apple has the cash flow. And I bet you someone like Apple would be like, "This is a great fit. We struggled with Siri." Sure, let's spend ten billion dollars. I know ten billion or even fifteen sounds like a lot of money, but to Apple, it's actually not that much, much. Yeah.

• 6:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  And, and it's a perfect fit to their product, like, unlike, unlike the Scale acquisition that Facebook did, and it's working out so far with Muse, this is a direct, like, fit into Apple products, and it just totally makes sense, even if it costs twenty billion, or just like, we should just pay twenty billion and just buy this company.

• 7:03Speaker 00

  And, and they can afford the compute too, right? And so, and they have the hardware, they have the infrastructure for it.

• 7:08Speaker 01

  They have everything. It would make their iPhones so much better. Like, this is great.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  My bet, Neil, is he'll probably sell it. You know why? Because he knows it's so competitive and it's so tough, that, that's probably, and I don't think he started this thing to sell it, and he's saying all the things right now, like, you know, we're gonna keep going, blah, blah, blah. But I, I'm a, I would bet you on this one, that he would sell it. You wanna take that bet?

• 7:27Speaker 01

  I, I agree with you. I'm the one who first started with you, you should sell the company.

• 7:32Speaker 00

  Let me bet you on your own call.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Like, I honestly think the best place for this company is Apple. And Apple would pay for it. You could also say Google as well, but like, Apple.

• 7:44Speaker 00

  Google has their own coming.

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, Apple needs to do something really cool in AI. And if you look at what Apple does, is, they tend to just create beautiful products that are simple and easy to use. That's their game. They make complex things look very simple and beautiful. And this is you're taking something very powerful and making it simple, because you can just talk to Siri or text Siri back and forth, and I'm like, this would just blow up, and more people would wanna buy Apple phones because of it.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  You know, here's my take on this. Here's, here's, uh, here's what I actually think as we're talking through this right now, and then I'm gonna share something from Sam, uh, Lessin, I think from The Information. I actually think that what, if you have Apple's resources, this isn't hard to build. Um, because you've seen so many versions of this, or, by the way, I'm not saying, I'm sorry, it's, it's, I'm not an engineer, right? But I'm just saying that there's so many versions of this already, right? You have OpenClaw, you have Hermes, uh, Muse is built off of the learnings from OpenClaw, right? Uh, you have, you know, Grokbot, like Grokbot came out in a month, right? So my take on it is, if you're paying a lot of engineers a lot of money for this, you should be able to put this together, especially if you have the infrastructure, you have the compute for it. Um, and so I, maybe they might not buy it, right? And so, let me just share this with you, Neil. Uh, this actually relates to the talk that we're, the topic that we're on.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  So, Sam Lessin from The Information says, "There is no mode in AI agents, none. I will die on this hill." New, more or less is up, so I guess that's his podcast. So he says, "I switched between Muse, Instinct, and Dots at basically zero cost. I basically do the same thing every day. One GitHub repo, a few databases, and feed the thing my, my..." The new thing, my contacts done. If the cost of writing software is going to zero, API integrations are not a moat. The only moat left is user setup costs, which means winner take some, not winner take all. Guess who sets up this stuff, Neil? Services, right? Adrian's point, AI collapse, I guess this is his podcast co-host. So Adrian's point, AI collapses value the second an idea works. So Jev, which just came out recently, got reverse engineered in forty eight hours and the people who built it captured nothing.

• 9:43Speaker 00

  My take, play that to the limit and you get Middle Ages two point oh. Everyone builds a castle, hordes data, ships black boxes that self destruct if you open them. Dave says humans don't work that way. We'll see. Meanwhile, Brit's Instinct started, I guess that's somebody else he works with. So Instinct, the agent that we're talking about, started talking to Dave's Instinct and they didn't text for a day. She says it's killing humanity. Nobody said that about FaceTime. No, funny enough, Neil, our mutual friend, I'm having my instinct and his instinct coordinate our trip right now, our founders retreat that we do annually. And Jess said, the only benchmark that matters is if the agent logs into school software, syncs three kids after school schedules and Muse does ninety percent of that. By the way, I'm pretty sure this was written by AI. But I think that's the challenge right now, right?

• 10:26Speaker 00

  That's why I said like Instinct, I think, you know, other people might just build it and I think they might, I don't know, it might not work out if they don't come out with a big differentiator. Cause I don't see a major differentiator right now.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Even Muse, dude. So I've played around a lot with Muse and I use most of these tools for more business purposes than marketing purposes, I would say. I'm assuming you would agree with that. And when I look at Muse, I had to compile a list of every single

• 10:58Speaker 01

  M and A advisory shop, banker that sells agencies. And I did this for Europe. I did this for the United States and I did it for Japan. Okay? I worked on it to be very, very specific on what I'm looking for, the size of the banking shop, the deal sizes that they've done in the past. If they've done too big of deals to exclude them from the list, like I got very specific because if they're used to selling companies for two hundred million dollars, I'm not buyers of companies for two hundred million dollars. I'm not rich enough to do that. So I'm getting very specific because I don't want to waste my time. Muse goes, it creates a list and I do this for all three regions.

• 11:41Speaker 01

  And the reason I have it start with the United States is I know the US really well, like I know a lot of the players in this space. And then I start having it fine tune, I refine it. Once I do that, it's connected to Gmail. From a perspective that it can just create drafts, right? So I'm not letting it just blast my contacts or anything like that. I have removed access from my Gmail since. It ended up creating me drafts. And when I say drafts, I'm not talking about like twenty, thirty or anything like that. I'm talking about hundreds. It was actually less than three hundred. And when I started going through them, I found a few issues.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  And I've told it to not give me generic email addresses, like if it can't find it, let me know or exclude those companies. It didn't do a good job of that. It sometimes sent me the email addresses and these companies of people who are in communications department, which breaks the whole model because I told it if they have too many employees outside of five or six, I said the max is actually ten, exclude them from the list. If you have people and you're a M and A advisory shop who are just in communications and they get your messaging out, you have more than ten employees typically, right? So it didn't classify the employee count right. It gave me a lot of firms that aren't even M and A advisory firms.

• 13:02Speaker 01

  It gave me a lot of companies that don't specialize in agencies when I asked them to only give me companies that have done past agency deals and please double check and remove the ones that haven't. And I was very specific. I didn't say traditional agencies, I said digital agencies that specialize in SEO, GEO. I actually did not say GEO, it was too new, but SEO, you know, paid media, social media marketing, I gave the list, right? Email marketing, et cetera. And what I found is I started sending out a lot of the drafts. I started going through ten, the first batch. And when I went through the first ten, I only sent out two out of the ten. And then I started going through the second ten.

• 13:44Speaker 01

  And I was even more picky. I started actually going through each and every single website and doing my own research. And I sent out one out of the ten from the second batch. After that, I deleted the rest of the drafts. I was just like, this is just costing me so much time. It would be cheaper to pay a human to do this than it would.

• 14:03Speaker 00

  Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson is brought to you by the HubSpot Podcast Network, the audio destination for business professionals. Frictionless Growth Marketing hosted by Sonya Thompson shows how modern brands grow by removing the friction in their marketing and customer experience that pushes customers away every single day, often without leaders even realizing it. Each episode delivers practical insights, real brand examples and conversations with marketing leaders, showing brands how to win with the new rules of growth, identity-driven marketing, cultural relevance and frictionless customer experiences. Listen to Frictionless Growth Marketing wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Using Muse.

• 14:39Speaker 00

  Real quick, if you want to acquire customers faster and more efficiently this year with the latest strategies and tactics, then check out Single Grain dot com. That is my ad agency, again, www dot Single Grain dot com. Check it out. And if it seems like a fit, we'll get in touch and help you with a free marketing plan. Yeah. So here's, here's what I'll call out with this. So let me, let me share my screen real quick. And then I'll tell you kind of how, how I think about this. So this is from Every and this shows a personal agent's comparison. So those of you that can't see the screen, there's a comparison with Dot versus Gemini Spark versus Grok Bot versus Hermes versus Instinct versus Muse versus OpenClaw, right? So I think the thing to, to call out here is each of these has their own unique use case.

• 15:23Speaker 00

  I will also say the model that Meta uses is not necessarily the greatest right now, right? And by the way, even if you're using a frontier model, it's still going to hallucinate quite a bit. Now, what I would say with, with Neil's build is I would actually just put Jev in, right? Jev as a classifier, this is why they say zero percent hallucinations because they'll do a lot of this classification at scale where it's too expensive or too slow for these frontier models to do it, or even like Muse is like, sorry, Meta's open source way. So that's what I would do to add in because what I'm doing right now with people who engage on like a, like a LinkedIn post that I have that has like twenty three hundred comments on it, right? So I'm like, oh, who can we actually, who has actually engaged there? So signal based selling, right? Who's actually engaged like two or three times? That seems like they're a good fit to work with us based on our recruiting page.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  Now I can do that using a Jev, right? For fractions of a penny, right? And then not only that, I can look for, by the way, Neil, you have a nice audience. How do we look at all the people who follow you that have the size of the agencies that you're looking for, right? Or like even those M and A advisors, right? That might, might follow you as well. And so that's all happening at a very high level with, with, you know, no hallucination, little to no, right? And it's a fraction of a penny and it happens very quickly too. And I was kind of messing around with this the other day. I was like, okay, well, I'm doing this event. I can see who's coming to this event. I'm like, I just cut and pasted it down. I'm like, who is actually like ICP fit, right? Boom. Like in, in like, I don't know, like a minute or so and like a fraction of a second, I could easily see, oh, this company is in this region over here.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  They do one point three billion and they have this many employees, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, having a classifier is a must. And I think that's going to be built into all these models eventually. So, yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I, I think you're spot on with this. And people don't mind paying, but they want the job done correctly. It's just like someone giving you, a team member giving you AI slop. It's like AI giving you slop just makes you pissed off and it just wastes a lot of your time. And it was like, this was just a bad use. Because if you look at how much time I spent with Muse and yes, even works in the background and you can shut off your computer and it still works on there and through their servers. I still wasted a lot of my time. And when I say wasted a lot of my time, I was giving Muse feedback throughout the whole process. I probably spent forty five minutes to hour easily and I was just pissed off after, right? And that's not even going through the drafts. I'm just talking about just working with Muse and I was like, man, this was just a really terrible experience.

• 17:44Speaker 01

  But it goes down to what that guy said on X. I actually don't have any loyalty to any of these products. It's not like me actually buying a physical product like a Nike or Chanel or Louis Vuitton. And I know we also discussed our affinity to those brands probably wasn't as strong, at least with Nike for Eric and I, to where we were with kids, right? Humans are more open to switching ever than before.

• 18:08Speaker 00

  I have an affinity to Air One.

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you love Air One. You always wear Air One cap and you always save the jars. But I learned from you, the jars actually give you back money.

• 18:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's why I keep them all because each one's three dollars, man.

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Oh, you get three dollars back for each one?

• 18:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, I have, I have so many of these jars now.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, I started saving them from all our soups because I was like, wait, because remember you took us for lunch? And then you're like, no, no, I got this. And I was trying to pay you like, no, no, it's free. And you come with all these jars. I loved it. But, but no, it's just like, i- it's spot on. I don't think we have affinity to any of this, which is why InSync should just sell to Apple if they could get an offer.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Agreed. By the way, Neil, let me show you this. This guy, Tebow Maker, so he's a, he's an engineer, right? I think he's a developer by trade, but he has this tool called outrank.s, which is an SEO tool. So this is interesting. So check this out. So you know how SEO Twitter, you know, they, they kind of poo poo on a lot of things, right? They have a lot of opinions. So his tool, so his tool sells links. They allow you to, like, if you're part of his ecosystem, you can actually put your site up to, you know, exchange links with other sites, right? And technically, this is against Google's terms, but here's what he said, right? So he's like, three weeks ago, SEO Twitter decided to, uh, decided outrank burns domains, right? So they're all talking crap about his tool, right? So our signups fell 26% by the next day, not going to print head, that didn't hurt.

• 19:28Speaker 00

  But that really affected me. So I set this mission myself to help founders with my products. So I was really nervous about us potentially harming domains because he's an engineer, right? He doesn't know about this SEO stuff. So then he's, but because he's an engineer and he's data driven, he's like, you know what? I pulled GSC data for our Google Search Console for our users. I ask AI for a full analysis and group them by how many of our backlinks they received, meaning how much they use outrank, okay? So if you got zero to nine links from his ecosystem, uh, 24% of Google clicks, uh, jumped since joining. And if you got 400 plus links from his ecosystem, 115% Google clicks joints, uh, jumped since, since joining, right? So he says, the more you use his tool, obviously, right, the more you grow. But what's interesting to me, Neil, is he starts showing these numbers, right?

• 20:10Speaker 00

  So he's like, okay, here's a, a chart that shows clicks per how many months since they joined outrank, right? So let's take a look at this. So you can see, um, in the purple over here, right? Since joining outrank, like month one, month two, month three, you can see over time by month 11, it's 2.37X. Um, and you can see their impressions jump by 3.8X. Now, that's not it, Neil. There's a little more here. So before we react to this, so he says, look, more exchange links, more growth. So zero to nine, 24%, 400 plus, 115%. The sites that fell by links received, shared declining websites now at half or less of their best 28 day window. Zero to nine links, 42.5%, 150 plus, 21.7%.

• 20:49Speaker 00

  So I just think it's, nobody has, has really shared this data before, and I think it's helpful to at least look at this.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it is really helpful. Um, and I'm not saying you should do link exchange or break Google's policy, and nor is Eric saying that. Uh, but I think this guy, Tebow, makes a good point about one thing. In which if you go to X or you go to LinkedIn, you're going to get a lot of hate depending what industry you're in. If you're building something good, and I'm not saying you should break people's terms of use or policy or do something that won't work in the long run. But if you really believe you're building something good that's going to change people's lives or is gonna, you know, do something amazing. If you're gonna get hate on it, it's okay. Just move on and ignore it. And I've learned that a long time ago because I get a ton of hate. And probably not as much anymore because my brand isn't as, uh, big as it used to be.

• 21:41Speaker 01

  And Eric would send me the articles or links of just people hating on me. And he would see him before me and he would send them to me because he knew I wasn't really checking them out or looking. But my solution in the past would be like, how does it not affect you? I'm like, you just don't look. You just move on and you just keep doing what you're doing and you build the best company you can and you do what's best for your customers and you don't worry about what competitors or other people in the industry are going to say if they're going to be negative and just haters all day.

• 22:07Speaker 00

  This just goes back to the personal brand thing, right? Like, forget about worrying about the personal brand that much, just do. Like, as long as you're doing, you're accomplishing, you have a team that's following you. Like, by the way, that's a big thing, though. If there's people that work with you, that means that they actually appreciate your leadership, right? So let me, let me add one more thing a- around this too. So it says, sites that fell by links received. So it says, some connected sites have SEO decreasing traffic, um, which is orange below. And most were going down before they started using outrank. And again, the more backlinks received by outrank, let's just take outrank out. The more backlinks you receive, the slower the decrease is, right? So you and I have always known that. We're not saying exchange links. We're not saying buy links or anything like that. We're just saying if you build something useful, it can get a lot of links, like linkable asset. Like, a lot of people are giving away these tools now. It used to be back in the day calculators, but

• 22:51Speaker 00

  because you can build anything with AI now, the bar is getting higher, right? And so I like, you know what I like about this, this thread the most, Neil? Is all these people talk crap about him, but then what happened is you don't see the SEOs coming in to poo poo on him. Because you know why? He's got the data, right? Data does a good job of shutting people up.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  No, even if, if he has the data, you'll see the SEOs poo poo on him just in different places.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, not here anymore, right? So, but like, this guy here, he's like, numbers like that are hard to, to argue with. Uh, like, this guy's like, okay, this does that, does that much match my experience? Well, anyway, guys, that's it for today. We hope you enjoyed it and we will catch you tomorrow.